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Unlearn

Unlearn

Barry O'Reilly

Business

Frequency: 1 episode/14d. Total Eps: 151

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The way to think differently is to act differently and get comfortable with being uncomfortable. For business leaders, entrepreneurs, managers and anyone who wants to improve how they work and live: Welcome to the Unlearn Podcast. Host Barry O’Reilly, author of Unlearn and Lean Enterprise seeks to synthesize the superpowers of extraordinary individuals into actionable strategies you can use—to Think BIG, start small and learn fast, and find your edge with excellence.
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  • 🇬🇧 Great Britain - entrepreneurship

    01/04/2025
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  • 🇫🇷 France - entrepreneurship

    11/02/2025
    #87

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How the Attention Economy is Redefining Traditional Marketing with Emily Ross

Episode 147

mercredi 29 janvier 2025 • Duration 35:12

Welcome to the UNLEARN Podcast! Today, we’re joined by Emily Ross, co-author of Just Evil Enough and a leader in brand strategy and creativity. With a career spanning tech innovation, marketing, and even circus performance, Emily approaches challenges from unconventional angles.

As Director of Brand Strategy at X (formerly Twitter) for EMEA, Emily also serves as an Advisory Board Member at SXSW and GoGreen Routes, an EU funded, pan-European research project on nature-based connectedness, as Co-founder of Resonance Festival  (Resonance-Lough Derg), and a mentor to startups across Europe.

In this episode, she shares her approach to subversive marketing, reframing obstacles as opportunities and using bold tactics to achieve extraordinary results. Drawing inspiration from disruptors like Tesla, Emily reveals how creativity and curiosity can transform business outcomes. Whether you’re looking to reimagine your marketing strategies or disrupt the status quo, Emily’s expertise is an invaluable guide.

Key Takeaways:

  • Unconventional marketing tactics involve reframing challenges and using bold strategies like zero-day exploits to help brands stand out.
  • The power of creativity lies in applying attention-grabbing skills across industries, as seen through lessons from a diverse career.
  • Turning flaws into strengths, as seen with Tesla and Space Invaders, shows how weaknesses can become powerful advantages.
  • Consistency over brilliance emphasizes that success stems from daily effort and experimentation, not rare moments of genius.

Additional Insights:

  • The Recon Canvas Framework uncovers market opportunities and shows the need for constant adaptability as strategies evolve.
  • Capturing attention in the digital age requires standout marketing in a noisy, distracted world.
  • Subversive thinking from Just Evil Enough shows how breaking rules can drive business success.

Get ready for a fascinating conversation with Emily Ross on rethinking traditional approaches, embracing creativity, and crafting strategies that disrupt the status quo!

Episode Highlights:

00:37 - Introducing Emily Ross

"Emily is a powerhouse in brand strategy, creative leadership, and co-author of Just Evil Enough. She’s reshaping how global brands stand out in noisy markets."

03:15 - Lessons from the Circus The Power of Attention

"I spent years as a fire performer, and it taught me that attention is a superpower. Learning to capture and hold attention is a skill every marketer needs."

05:14 - Subversive Marketing Tactics Explained

"Subversive marketing is about being bold, counterintuitive, and creative. It’s not growth hacking, it’s about playing the long game to stay ahead."

09:47 - Turning Bugs Into Features

"The famous Space Invaders bug is a perfect example of how flaws can create differentiation. As the game progressed, it got faster, making it more exciting."

15:10 - The Product-Market Fit...

How Product Managers Can Avoid Startup Failures and Drive Growth with John Cutler

Episode 146

mercredi 15 janvier 2025 • Duration 47:59

Welcome to the UNLEARN Podcast! Today, we’re joined by a thought leader and prolific voice in product management and organizational design, John Cutler. With a unique ability to navigate the “beautiful mess” of product development, John has spent his career exploring the complex overlaps of product, UX, and strategy.

Currently serving as Head of Product at Dotwork, John has previously held impactful roles such as Senior Director of Product Enablement at Toast and Product Evangelist at Amplitude, where he collaborated with thousands of product teams worldwide. His extensive experience spans B2B SaaS giants like Zendesk, Pendo, and AppFolio, as well as B2C, ad-tech, banking, and media industries.

Known for his insightful writing, John has authored nearly a thousand posts across various platforms, captivating readers with his deep understanding of product dynamics. Whether you’re seeking to level up your product thinking or gain practical tips on team enablement, John’s expertise offers unparalleled insights.

Key Takeaways:
  • The Beautiful Mess of Product Development: John’s approach to embracing complexity and context in product management to uncover innovative solutions.
  • Unlearning and Growth: How letting go of rigid practices and adapting to change can unlock greater potential for teams and leaders.
  • Writing as a Catalyst for learning: The power of consistent writing in shaping ideas, refining strategies, and building meaningful connections in the product community.

Additional Insights:
  • Product Ecosystems in Flux: John talks about the dynamic nature of product management, highlighting how roles and best practices evolve with organizational and market shifts.
  • Gamifying the Creative Process: Insights into how John uses tools and techniques to make writing, ideation, and problem-solving more engaging and productive.
  • Rethinking Organizational Models: Exploring how companies can overcome challenges by reimagining structures, roles, and team dynamics for the modern era.

Get ready for a thought-provoking conversation with John Cutler on embracing complexity, fostering innovation, and mastering the art of unlearning!

Episode Highlights:

00:36 - Episode Introduction

"I don't think we need a product manager for every 4 to 7 people. A software as a service company is much more of a service ecology." 

01:15 - Introducing John Cutler

"John is one of the most insightful voices in product management, with a career spanning roles at Toast, Amplitude, and beyond."

03:46 - Discovering the "Beautiful Mess" of Product

"I’ve always been fascinated by the overlaps—where product, UX, and strategy collide in unpredictable ways."

11:27 - The Importance of Writing and Sharing Ideas

"I realized that writing wasn’t just for others—it was for me to process and refine my thinking."

15:59 - Finding Your Path Through Experimentation

"Everybody finds their way if you're willing to experiment and try. It's like software—the rate of iteration and the velocity of creation allow you to refine and...

Brand Safety & Platform Integrity at Spotify, TikTok and Google with from Dave Byrne

Episode 137

mercredi 28 août 2024 • Duration 48:05

Leadership in digital ecosystems requires a commitment to safety, trust, and ethical practices. Our guest today, Dave Byrne, founder of Trust Raise and a member of the Irish Digital Board, shares his journey from major tech giants to establishing a company dedicated to improving the integrity of digital platforms.

Dave Byrne has had an illustrious career, holding significant positions at Google, TikTok, and Spotify, where he spearheaded initiatives in brand safety and platform integrity. Now, as the founder of Trust Raise, he focuses on helping smaller companies navigate the complex landscape of digital safety. His work is driven by a deep commitment to creating ethical digital ecosystems that prioritize user needs and improve industry standards. 

Host Barry O'Reilly invites Dave to discuss his career journey, the challenges of maintaining digital safety in a rapidly evolving industry, and the inspiration behind founding Trust raise. Dave shares valuable insights into the importance of adaptability, the evolving role of AI in digital safety, and how smaller companies can leverage his expertise to build safer digital platforms.

Key Takeaways:

  • Resilience Through Failure: Early career setbacks can teach invaluable lessons about humility, perseverance, and the importance of continuous effort.
  • Navigating Global Teams: Success in a fast-paced, global environment requires strong relationships, effective collaboration, and the ability to work across different time zones and cultures.
  • Overcoming 'Golden Handcuffs': Comfort and security in large tech companies can sometimes hinder innovation. Pushing oneself out of the comfort zone is crucial for personal and professional growth.
  • AI’s Potential in the Workplace: AI has the potential to enhance productivity and creativity. Those who leverage AI effectively will be at the forefront of industry innovation.

Additional Insights:

  • Personal Reflections on Failure: Dave shared how an early career setback taught him invaluable lessons about resilience, humility, and the importance of continuous effort. This experience has profoundly influenced his work ethic and approach to leadership.
  • AI's Potential to Revolutionize Work: Dave is optimistic about AI’s potential to enhance productivity and creativity. He believes that those who learn to leverage AI effectively will be at the forefront of the industry, taking on more dynamic roles and contributing to a more innovative tech landscape.
  • The Importance of Ethical Tech Development: Throughout his career, Dave has been a strong advocate for ethical practices in tech. He stressed the need for companies, big and small, to prioritize user safety and trust, especially as technology continues to evolve rapidly.

Episode Highlights

  • 00:00 - Download my free innovation map
  • 00:39 - Introduction to Dave Byrne
  • 03:00 - Dave’s unexpected start in his career and the impact of failure.

“This career in Google, TikTok, Spotify was not at all planned whatsoever... I actually ended up in Google because I lost a student union election in Trinity College."

  • 07:35 - The rise of brand safety concerns and the 'Apocalypse.'

"The Adpocalypse... Brand safety became something that YouTube started caring about, Meta started caring about."

  • 11:18  - Eroding Brand Perception

“ we're eroding brand perception of our customers. Again,...

Making Quality Decisions with Diana Kander

Episode 47

mercredi 20 janvier 2021 • Duration 35:12

Diana Kander is a New York Times Bestselling Author, an entrepreneur, and keynote speaker. Barry O’Reilly likes to reference her Ted Talk and $1 experiment in many of his videos. Diana has spent her career challenging assumptions and asking thought-provoking questions. Barry welcomes her to this week’s show as they discuss tips and tricks that lead to innovation. The Road to Innovation Her parents’ ability to essentially create something from nothing fed Diana’s urge to get into entrepreneurship and innovation. Her immigrant parents had to work hard to provide for the family. Through their hard work, they were able to build their own business.  New Mindset, New Growth One of Diana’s biggest unlearning experiences happened while starting up her own business. She gives an anecdote of her interaction with a high growth program leader. She talks about having to change her mindset and approach to business due to that interaction and how it grew her company 1000% in one year! Barry adds that breaking free of existing behaviors within that frame and thinking big but starting small can help a business grow. Saying No and Letting Go “Good strategy means you say no, even to customers you know,” Barry says. Customers you go after are the customers you will get, Diana emphasizes. Sales from larger companies will take longer to get, but the return is worth it. She says that you should say no to companies that can prevent you from going after the kind of business you really want. She cites her experience of letting go 90% of her own customers so she could have more growth and profitability. Barry iterates that being serious about your business growth means sometimes letting go of existing customers. Quality Decision-Making Making decisions on a 1 to 10 scale allows you to make higher quality decisions. Diana says that many people are misguided on how to say yes to things because they think about decisions as a yes or no binary, rather than on a scale of one to ten. In the business decision-making process, it’s important to have people around you who can help you find ways to work through hard decisions. Pivot Indicators Diana calls the things we monitor to inform our decisions, ‘pivot indicators.’ There should be systems in place - such as a decision-making rubric - that monitor the outcomes of our decisions and help people make progress in uncertain situations. Diana says that your decision-making rubric is a living document that will evolve as you do new things and experience what works. She adds that she has a decision diary for when she’s making tough decisions, with a checklist for those decisions. “50% of decisions are probably wrong because you have limited information,” Diana expresses. Looking Ahead Diana is currently focused on leading people through innovation, creating an environment that helps them get through an innovation project, and big transformation within a company. Diana’s tips to managers are to create pivot points within their work environment, give employees their space to do their tasks, and trust their employees to achieve the business’ desired outcomes. Resources Diana Kander | Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Website

Enabling Agility by Being Agile with Annette Gabriel

Episode 46

mercredi 6 janvier 2021 • Duration 36:39

This week’s guest, Annette Gabriel, is enthusiastic about helping leaders and teams adopt higher performance practices. Annette is a former Senior Director of Human Resources at Pepsico. Barry O’Reilly describes her as “one of the people who just shines when you hear her stories.” Annette and Barry discuss the framework of agility, and how to let teams lead. Agility Mindset Leaders who adopt an agility mindset are eager to explore the world around them. Annette says that she views each job as a learning opportunity and a new experience whether she ends up liking it or not. Barry comments that trying and even failing is part of the process: you just have to recalibrate when things don’t go as you planned. If more people adopted an agility mindset, they would be open to trying new ways of working.  Unlearning Moments Barry asks Annette to relate some of the mistakes she made along the way, and what she had to unlearn. “Trying to do too much at once whilst still trying to influence the leadership layer of the company,” she begins. She gives an anecdote of going at the leadership layer with working programs that failed because they were too complicated. She was still learning the programs while trying to share and develop them, so she should have taken more time to fully understand them before presenting to company leaders. Barry comments that leaders often find it hard to just get out of the way and let front line staff have more authority. However, when they start to see the values and principles come to life and the positive outcomes of them, it becomes easier for them to trust the process. Being Agile “There is no one way to be agile,” Annette remarks. “Being agile is actually pivoting and adjusting for what you need at that moment, at that time based upon what you've learned, what information you've gathered and what you've learned from testing,” she continues. It’s a common misconception that processes have to be standardized to be successful, Barry comments. A better approach is a localized one: focus on equipping teams to adapt based on the context. First Follower Concept “A champion can bring [the team] along a lot more quickly if you give that champion the license to take the team through [training],” Annette says. She advocates the importance of ‘first followers’. “A first follower,” Annette explains, “is that champion who is going to make the extra time investment and go deeper on things, when they try to pull a group into an exercise or facilitate a discussion.” She reiterates that these individuals are influential in reaching more people and bringing them onto the new plans and directions the organization may take. The Team Leads The Way Barry expresses that at times senior level management believe that they have all the answers and that this can create challenges within the organization. He adds that processes designed to make things work often keeps progress back because those processes rely on one or two people signing off a document. It is better to empower the hundreds of frontline workers - who deal with the issues and know what exactly the problems are - to come up with the solutions. Annette agrees and adds that a well-constructed team with all the right capabilities will be experts at resolving issues. Looking Ahead Not knowing what’s ahead is what excites Annette the most. She’s looking forward to her ‘next great learning experience.’ Her advice to leaders who may be struggling with unlearning: play along and see what happens, you may not always like the result but it will always be a learning experience. Resources Annette Gabriel on LinkedIn

Unlearn Season Two Finale: Ask Me Anything with Barry O’Reilly

Episode 45

mercredi 23 décembre 2020 • Duration 34:06

Welcome to the Unlearn Podcast’s second Ask Me Anything, something that is fast becoming an annual tradition. This episode is a kind of retrospective, a chance to not only answer questions from listeners all over the world but a chance to reflect on the year that has happened - the challenges as well as the opportunities.  Here’s to 2021 – and now, 10 answers to 10 questions. ·    What has been the most important characteristic that has helped you lead through COVID? ·    As a leader, what advice would you give your younger self for managing such an accelerated period of change? ·    What was the biggest shift for you personally in your approach to leadership this year? ·    What are the key traits and habits that leaders need to adopt to lead in this new world of work? ·    You often talk about collaboration fit — can you elaborate on it? ·    What’s been your most interesting video conference experience in 2020? ·    What are your principles of work? ·    What one change have you made to help you for 2021 and beyond? ·    What’s the most interesting research you’ve discovered this year? ·    What’s your favorite book you read this year? Further Listening: Role Modeling Culture Transformation with Christian Metzner Product Management For Large Scale Innovation with Secil Tabli Watson Help Others Win with Steven Leist Resources: How to be an Anti-Racist Strong Towns

Helping Others Win with Steven Leist

Episode 44

mercredi 9 décembre 2020 • Duration 44:24

Steven Leist is the Vice President for Customer Technology at American Airlines, the world’s largest airline. He is a technology leader who is intentional about creating a culture that cares for his team members. Barry and Steven discuss building employee relationships, becoming better leaders, and developing culture within organizations in this week’s Unlearn Podcast. Helping Others Win at Work Over time, Steven has adopted the concept of helping others win at work. He tells Barry that it comes down to people within an organization, and stresses the importance of culture as the driving force behind his leadership. Helping others win changes people's mindset. "I think some of the challenges we hear at times are that folks feel constrained by policies, and so we worked really hard to try to listen to our frontline employees and really try to put them in a situation where they can actually help the customer," Steven comments. He tells Barry that he had to unlearn how to let go as a leader, and that he did not have to be the smartest person in the room. Thinking Big and Starting Small One of the challenges many companies have is that they think big but don’t start small. Steven shares an example where he and his team became frustrated with a project at work because they thought big and started big to complete it faster. He expresses that this is a common management issue "because they have to see the big picture and they've got to get the revenue results". The pandemic allowed American Airlines to pivot and start attacking the new problems presented by it, within the parameters of thinking big and starting small. "I think this capability and mindset - and behavior really - you've built of thinking big but starting small, means teams are constituting small things, and there's opportunities for leaders to see small progress, small steps, small mistakes and then course correct and grow into these bigger solutions that have profound impact across your company," Barry remarks. Trust Culture Barry asks Steven to give some advice to persons wishing to embark on the journey of building culture within an organization. "You have to have a culture that's built on trust," Steven answers. It’s important to have leaders who are willing to step up and advocate for the team, he adds. Leaders should also be humble enough to let the team figure out their own way of handling problems such as including them in decision making and helping them build camaraderie. Another key factor is having the right relationship with the right business partners. Taking all these steps can develop the trust culture within the organization. Looking Ahead American Airlines is moving towards better product management and building a stewardship concept in terms of how product management is done. Steven believes it is vital to continue the dialogue on diversity and inclusion and bring in new perspectives to enrich the company’s culture. He wants employees to be better connected to their customers and have direct feedback with them. Resources Steven Leist on LinkedIn  Steven Leist on Twitter

Building for Tomorrow with Sara Wood

Episode 43

mercredi 25 novembre 2020 • Duration 49:38

Sara Wood is the CEO of Kaluza. She is a product leader, non-executive board member and a “builder at heart” who has even helped the UK with its Covid systems. Barry O’Reilly welcomes Sara to this week’s show as they discuss changing technology and the effects of the pandemic on the energy sector. Transitioning Across Domains Sara’s wide-ranging experience has enabled her to go from place to place through the lens of “what is interesting here, what’s interesting about the technology there”. She is essentially “a builder at heart”, she says. Barry asks her what advice she would give to someone who wants to transition from one domain to another. She responds,  “I think the combination of really being curious about the world around you, about where technology is going, and adaptable to what you find on the other side of that.” The Platform Play and Supply Chain Sara learned supply chain in the fashion industry at Gap. She moved to Farfetch because she was impressed with that company’s platform play, particularly the impact it would have on supply chain. At Kaluza, she sees technology and data as the platform that would enable the transition in the energy industry. What we do now with regard to the climate crisis will inform the future, she points out. She laments that the existing data and technology is not being put to use as they should be. To her, she tells Barry, a platform approach is about “how do we empower people in their homes who are just living a normal life to both understand how they participate in the energy ecosystem and adapt behavior?” She finds that using the technology and data to empower customers and give them more choices is fueling demand for sustainable energy. Platform Thinking Trends and data that exists within the teams she works with, are all information Sara pools together into her platform. Barry applauds this “platform thinking.” Sara says that she jumps into a new industry with a fair amount of curiosity. She believes that product leaders who adopt this mental model are the “CEOs of the future” and are building a system to “create conditions for success.” Her teams have since adopted her approach. Going Remote As a platform technology company, going remote due to the pandemic was relatively easy for Kaluza. The company’s pace of growth has continued. Additionally, during the lockdown, Kaluza was able to fully migrate one of its customers into its newly updated platform. Pride of Work People need to feel connected to the job that they’re doing. For example, Barry says, the workers at Tesco light up when they see how they’re able to help customers. Small acts of kindness and recognition can have a great effect, and leaders should ensure that their teams are able to see the benefits of their hard work. Looking Ahead  Sara is looking forward to applying her skills and experience to making energy simple, cheap and safe. She is anticipating that the world would rely less on things that are damaging to the environment. Resources Sara Wood on LinkedIn

People-Centric, High Performance Culture with Rick Weil

Episode 42

mercredi 11 novembre 2020 • Duration 36:18

Barry O’Reilly welcomes Rick Weil onto this week’s show. Rick Weil is a Head of Global Product and Analytics at Amazon. He started off as an officer in the U.S. Marine Corps, then worked at General Dynamics and Microsoft before his current position at Amazon. Rick and Barry discuss key human-centered approaches to unlocking team motivation and performance. [Listen from 00:34] A Positive Culture “When you can create this culture where everybody wants to help each other towards a shared goal, you've unlocked some incredible opportunities for performance,” Rick comments. He is focused on creating a positive culture in his working environment where peers selflessly help each other excel versus competing with each other. He stresses taking time to listen to his employees and their concerns, as well as deliberately stepping back at times to let team members address challenges on their own. This is especially important when managing ‘managers of managers’ and dealing with internal conflict. [Listen from 6:51] 360° Feedback Barry asks Rick some of the things he noticed about himself that have evolved over time. One of the many things Rick has learned at Amazon is the power of “taking check x-rays” and using 360° feedback to identify leadership patterns to pay attention to. This helps us know what levers to pull to improve team culture and performance. Rick also talks about the importance and power of genuinely caring for people in the workplace over following scripted leadership behaviors. “Just because I can read all these books on leadership and follow the recipe doesn't make me a good leader,” Rick comments. As a leader you need to find ways to effectively sense how your teams are doing at the human level and connect the personal needs and motivations of your team to business goals to drive organizational change. “Mission First, People Always”, Rick says. [Listen from 14:00] Leadership and Relationships Being a transformational leader is rooted in building strong relationships with the people you lead and work with. One way to do this is through intentional question asking. We often use questioning to assess the health of work operations, yet the true power (and intrinsic leadership fulfillment) comes from getting to know people at the human level, teaching, developing, and being part of your teams’ career journeys. Ask how your team members are doing (and mean it). Get to know about their aspirations and what’s important to them. And for leaders where this genuine, human-centered approach may not come natural, Rick urges them to give caring a try. “Care about people. That will change your perspective, it'll impact your mindset,” Rick expresses. When you look at leadership as a platform for positive human impact and not as a position of individual power, it changes the way that you think about life and work, and directly correlates with the performance of your team. [Listen from 21:00] Looking Ahead Barry asks Rick what he’s looking forward to. He responds that he is looking forward to his partnership with the Project Management Institute (PMI) and developing a product, called Kickoff, which is an intuitive, web-based guide to project management. There are so many resources available for project and program management practitioners, but few for non-PMs who need to know how to better get project work done, essentially to know PM “as a skill”. Kickoff starts with basics, includes helpful templates and examples, and is aimed at helping individuals get acquainted with the fundamentals of project management. This product has the potential to fundamentally enhance how work gets done for millions of people, from students putting together class projects to start-ups creating new products and support functions tenured PMs who need project support from other, non-PM team members [Listen from 33:58]. Resources Rick Weil on LinkedIn

Product Management For Large Scale Innovation with Secil Tabli Watson

Episode 41

mercredi 28 octobre 2020 • Duration 48:45

Barry O’Reilly is pleased to welcome Secil Tabli Watson, Executive Vice President for Digital Solutions for Business at Wells Fargo. In this week’s show, Barry chats with Secil about the techniques she uses to drive innovation in both retail and business banking environments. She shares the lessons she unlearned in the process and how to bring product management principles into a large organization in a way that drives innovation. First Lesson: Speak The Customer’s Language Secil’s first assignment as a digital channel manager 18 years ago was to make Wellsfargo.com into a buying site. She focused on language that was customer-focused, rather than the bank-centric. “We brought in the capabilities and the competency of doing user research and understanding customer tasks and understanding their behaviors and motivators and really putting that into the language,” she says. In addition, they transformed the architecture of the website so that it was more customer driven. [Listen from 1:55] Staff People to Outcomes Not Products If you’re struggling to move from project-based teams to outcome-based ones, Secil advises that you reframe how you think. This was a critical unlearning for her, she remarks. She shares an example of how she recast her thinking about a project from product to outcome, as a result of which her team was able to see themselves as responsible for a broader outcome, and partner with other departments to make it happen. She advises listeners to break the project into phases with quick wins, and gives insight into how to create cross-functional teams with as little awkwardness as possible. “If you ask a little bit at a time from people, they're more willing to help,” she points out. [Listen from 6:50] B2B Customer Relationships Are Deeper Businesses with B2B customers can develop deeper relationships with them. Because their B2B customers are fewer in number, Secil says, they are able to communicate on a more intimate level over a longer period of time. She asks her B2B customers, “How do you feel?” because it elicits deeper answers. “And I'm also then able to ask the question, Why?” Secil remarks. “I can ask the question as many times as I want to try to get down to a deeper meaning and a deeper need or a desire or a business problem that the customer may be having.” She and Barry discuss why co-creating with your customers - as counterintuitive as the idea appears - is their favored approach. “It builds more trust and actually derisks more of your relationship,” Barry comments. [Listen from 15:20] It Only Takes 10 “...it doesn't take more than 10 people to do things but you have to get the right 10 people,” Secil argues. Her job, as she sees it, is to figure out what to do differently so she can identify those 10 people quickly in her large organization environment. Barry comments that if more companies adopt this approach they would see greater success. [Listen from 29:35] OKRs are not for Compensation Secil and Barry agree that while measuring performance is important, performance metrics should not be tied to compensation, as pay for performance inhibits innovation. Secil believes that the team should win together and learn together; they should not compete against one another. “There is nothing more we could do to make a better team other than enable them to learn,” she says. [Listen from 36:00] Looking Ahead Secil is excited about the current trend to apply product management principles and skills in atypical areas, such as for thinking through outcomes and tactics for diversity and inclusion efforts. Barry comments, “I think everybody can take these principles and methods and apply them to build better experiences for people.” [Listen from 43:35] Resources Secil Tabli Watson on LinkedIn

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