“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies – Details, episodes & analysis

Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk about ‘Founder Mode’ a concept coined by YC founder Paul Graham in a recent essay — based on a talk by Brian Chesky, founder of Airbnb. They discuss how founders feel gaslit by advice to delegate without micromanaging, and that the right approach IS a ruthlessly hands-on approach. The hosts explore the tension founders face between maintaining control and trusting hires, emphasizing the need for empathy. This is a sign that the paradigm is shifting, and all business leaders need to adjust.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

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Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

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LINK:

Founder Mode https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html

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KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) What is Founder Mode?

(03:59) Empathy for Founders

(04:54) The Role of Executives and Operators

(07:19) Blending Founder and Manager Mindsets

(09:56) Defensiveness and Personal Growth

(11:45) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:50) Kelli’s Best Take Ever?

Dr. Vijay Pendakur, DEI expert, author, and principal and founder of Vijay Pendakur Consulting, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich to discuss the current pushback against DEI, the future of the movement, and how companies can find success in a shifting landscape.

How can companies foster inclusion while avoiding divisiveness and proving business value?

Vijay, Kelli and Nolan candidly discuss the future of corporate diversity initiatives amid pushback and the search for measurable ROI, and exchange ideas for how to evolve diversity initiatives for impact.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network: https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH VIJAY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Vijay: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijaypendakur

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

“Closing the Opportunity Gap”

https://www.amazon.com/Closing-Opportunity-Gap-Identity-Conscious-Strategies/dp/1620363127

Watch out for “The Alchemy of Talent: Leading Teams to Peak Performance” available for pre-order: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Talent-Leading-Teams-Performance/dp/B0DCHB9RYZ/ref=sr[…]d=1724904614&refinements=p_27%3AVijay+Pendakur&s=books&sr=1-1

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:28) Current state of DEI and recent pushback from various sectors

(03:12) Analysis of DEI investment timeline and systemic unfairness

(05:26) Higher education's response to DEI legislation and demographic shifts

(08:38) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(09:58) Challenges in measuring DEI progress and impact

(12:48) Misunderstandings and Semantics

(17:55) Corporate vs. Social DEI

(22:45) Sponsor: Metaview

(26:38) Scope of care in corporations and how COVID impacted DEI initiatives

(35:12) Challenges in measuring DEI impact and focus on hiring metrics

(40:41) Team effectiveness and the role of inclusion in high-performance teams

(45:00) Impact of diversity on team performance and manager effectiveness

(50:25) Future of DEI programs and evolving role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs)

(53:38) Reframing DEI for business performance and organizational effectiveness

(55:00) Discussion on colorblindness and meritocracy in business contexts

(57:03) Critique of MEI framework and the need for ongoing DEI interventions

(58:10) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss how HR teams can break out from behind the curtain and be a proactive force for good within the organization.

HR can be more than just a reactive function. Learn how HR teams can demonstrate their real impact on the business as Kelli and Nolan share tips for increasing visibility and showcasing your team's value.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:18) The Importance of Feedback

(02:17) Mediocre vs. Amazing Work

(03:07) Employee Awareness of HR Functions

(04:41) Town Hall Presence: Communication and Transparency

(05:01) Engagement Surveys

(06:06) The Importance of Transparency - The "Sausage Making" Analogy

(06:35) AMA Example - Comp Transparency

(08:30) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(11:09) The Art of Compensation

(12:19) Transparency is Scary but Necessary

(13:00) Explaining the "Why" - First Principles

(14:00) Time Commitment and Building Trust

(15:18) Strategic Vulnerability and Humanization

(16:40) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich sit down with Chris Vasquez, Investor and Founder of Quantum Talent, and discuss the insane AI talent market, executive hiring, and the future of work in a world where AI is rapidly changing everything.

Hear their insights on the dynamic AI talent market covering the evolution of tech trends, challenges in hiring, the changing dynamics of diversity and merit, and the race for top talent.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH CHRIS, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Chris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-vasquez-66137553/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Quantum Talent:

https://www.quantumtalent.io/

Related Post:

Alexander Wang’s LinkedIn Post on Meritocracy at Scale

The Architect of the Paypal Mafia: Peterson Conway

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:25) The Evolution of Tech Recruiting

(02:00) Impact of AI on the Job Market

(03:41) Challenges and Opportunities in AI

(06:06) The Competitive AI Talent Market

(07:06) AI Strategies and Realities

(07:57) The AI Gold Rush

(10:39) Winning in the AI Talent War

(22:01) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(25:51) Diversity and Merit in Tech

(26:56) The Importance of Diverse Personality Traits

(27:39) Meritocracy and Bias in Hiring

(28:25) Challenges and Changes in Defining Diversity

(29:42) The Role of DEI in Companies

(31:38) Balancing Company Culture and Performance

(36:03) Sponsor: Metaview | Warp

(40:34) The Future of AI Executives

(44:05) Advice for Job Candidates

(50:10) Emerging Trends in Tech and Beyond

(52:41) Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss the reality of PIPs (Performance Improvement Plans).

Are PIPs genuine efforts to help employees or a company CYA tactic? Kelli and Nolan explore the misuse of PIPs, arguing that they should be a last resort, not the first step in addressing performance issues. Listen to their insights as they discuss PIP alternatives, like the "fork approach," focusing on open communication and employee empowerment over PIPs.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(03:12) Performance Improvement Plans (PIPs)(01:46) Pips As A Forcing Function And The Misuse Of The Process(05:06) The Misconception on PIPs(06:48) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo(08:00) The "PIP or Package" Approach and its Alternatives(13:21) Surviving PIP(16:38) Advice for Employees Facing PIP

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan are joined by Heather Doshay, Partner and Head of Talent at SignalFire.

How is the tech talent landscape evolving, and what are the challenges and opportunities that come with these changes? Listen as Heather shares insights from their State of Talent report, uncovering shifts in location trends, Gen Z job hopping, and the truth about AI's impact on hiring. Plus, hear why "remote ready" is more important than ever and why Heather calls out the reliance on pedigree and college degrees in hiring, arguing for a more skills-based approach to talent acquisition.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

RELATED EPISODE:

Tomasz Tunguz on Hiring the Right Talent, Firing the Wrong Execs, and Navigating M&As

* Substack

* Apple

* Spotify

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KEEP UP WITH HEATHER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINHeather: https://www.linkedin.com/in/doshay/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS

SignalFire: https://www.signalfire.com/

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TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction(00:20) Heather Doshay's Career Journey(01:39) SignalFire's State of Talent Report(03:13) Geographic Talent Shifts(08:06) Gen Z vs. Gen X Workplace Trends(12:52) The Value of College Education(14:41) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo(17:25) Job Descriptions and Requirements(24:53) Challenges of HR Leadership(28:36) Challenges of the Chief People Officer Role(29:49) The Complexity of Hybrid Work Environments(30:54) Navigating Remote Work During the Pandemic(31:58) The Future of Remote and Hybrid Work(34:15) AI in Recruitment: Transforming Hiring Processes(34:32) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp(41:22) Common Mistakes in Early-Stage Companies(42:40) The Problem with Over-Leveling Titles(50:27) Rethinking Pedigree in Hiring(54:38) The Impact of AI on Jobs(56:18) Wrap 

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss Meta's latest round of VP cuts which raises questions about the future of big tech jobs and the impact of efficiency initiatives on employees.

Is Meta's large number of VPs hindering efficiency? Listen as Kelli and Nolan discuss the impact of bloated management structures in big tech, the future of leadership and management, and their insights on how to prepare for a changing job market.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(00:04) Meta's Push for Efficiency

(02:03) Employee Perspective on Job Security

(03:30) Company Perspective on Executive Roles

(06:01) The Issue of Title Inflation

(08:04) Navigating the Job Market

(08:55) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(13:08) Networking and Career Advice

(15:15) Concluding Thoughts

(15:26) Sponsor: Warp

(16:27) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nick and Kelli sit down with Nick Cromydas, CEO of Hunt Club, and discuss the executive search evolution, leveraging technology, and AI. His company Hunt Club uses a network of thousands of leaders to find the perfect candidate, revolutionizing the traditional search firm model. Nick, Kelli, and Nolan discuss common negotiation points and terms surrounding executive compensation, equity, and the importance of transparency and feedback in hiring processes.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

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KEEP UP WITH NICK, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cromydas

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Hunt Club: https://www.huntclub.com/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(00:19) Founding Insight of Hunt Club

(02:21) How Hunt Club Works

(06:57) The Role of Technology and Human Element in Executive Search

(10:14) Executive Severance Negotiations

(14:49) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(20:31) Equity and Compensation Insights

(26:13) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(28:04) The Importance of Upfront Process

(32:00) Effective Executive Interview Processes

(34:46) The Value of Working Sessions

(36:42 )The Importance of Executive Feedback

(48:31) Evolving Trends in Executive Search

(52:42) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan is joined by regular guests/friends of the pod Colleen McCreary (Ribbit Capital) and David Hanrahan (CPO, Flare) to unpack Alexandr Wang’s MEI stance at Scale AI, the growing backlash against DEI initiatives, and a discussion of how businesses can move forward productively from this debate.

The conversation also touches on the new culture deck from Netflix! If you haven’t listened to HR Heretics episode #1 where we interviewed Patti McCord, architect of the first Netflix culture deck, queue it up right after this episode.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

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Support Our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. :writing_hand: Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

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KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, DAVID, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINColleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/

David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

00:33) Meritocracy Needs a Rebrand

(02:19) Challenges of Meritocracy

(04:22) Real-World Examples and Hypocrisy

(06:38) Striving for Alternatives

(09:21) DEI and Meritocracy: Are They at Odds?

(15:15) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(19:15) Transparency and Context in Leadership

(21:35) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(34:34) Final Thoughts and Call for Unity

(36:17) Wrap

In this 4th of July special episode of HR Heretics, hosts Kelli and Nolan discuss the hurdles of taking vacations, particularly in the context of modern HR practices.

They explore the challenges and strategies of making use of unlimited PTO, the importance of setting regular boundaries for mental health, and the importance of planning ahead for time off. They also discuss the importance of training your colleagues to enforce your vacation, deleting Slack off your phone, and recognizing false urgency.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. :writing_hand: Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction and Welcome

(00:02) The Vacation Dilemma

(00:42) Unlimited Vacation Policies

(01:23) Personal Vacation Strategies

(02:26) The Importance of Taking Breaks

(04:45) Setting Boundaries and Expectations

(10:06) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(13:29) 4th of July Plans

(15:04) Wrap

(15:12) Sponsor: Workvivo | Warp