PRODUCTEA with Leah, Growth & Senior Leadership – Details, episodes & analysis

Cringe Marketing, Dogfooding, and the limitations of Hubspot and Salesforce with Austin Hay, the Co-Founder of Clarify (CRM).

I talked with Austin on the rise of superficial marketing tactics and what they do to the importance of building a strong brand.

We discuss why Product Managers cannot ignore Marketing anymore and the value of good dogfooding in product development when everyone tells you to “listen to your customer”.

How to transition from being your own ideal customer to targeting a different market segment.

Takeaways

• Marketing is moving from a deterministic approach to a more probabilistic approach, where marketers have less control and understanding of who and how to reach people.
• The rise of superficial and cringe-worthy marketing tactics on platforms like LinkedIn is a result of increased competition and the need to stand out.
• Traditional CRMs have limitations in terms of speed, data entry, and automation.

Sound Bites

• "Marketing is moving back to the ways things were done in the 1960s to the 1990s, where you're not going to have as much control and understanding about who and how to reach people."
• "We're just shifting market shares around without deriving value to the customer."
• "You can be a really good dog fooder of your product, but you may not be the ideal ICP for your product in the future."
• "The core product is never done. Whenever you add something else, it becomes a little bit worse, and then you need to repatch it up."

Chapters

08:12 The Rise of Superficial and Cringe-Worthy Marketing Tactics

13:55 The Importance of Building a Strong Brand

23:40 The Role of Marketing in Product Development

29:03 The Value of Dogfooding in Product Development

31:25 The Value and Challenges of Dogfooding

38:12 The Never-Ending Process of Product Development

39:07 Balancing Customer Feedback and Vision

53:46 The Limitations of Traditional CRMs

01:00:15 Introducing Clarify: Disrupting the CRM Market 

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If you spend money on paid ads, chances are that you’re being taken advantage of. The biggest providers do it to you because they can and they optimize their systems more and more towards it.

Rand Fishkin and me discuss the challenges and limitations of paid advertising, the role of AI in marketing, the importance of organic initiatives and why you can’t skip good quality audience research.

Takeaways

• Many marketers spend money on ads that are shown to people who would have converted anyway.
• The best marketing channels are often the hardest to measure. Paid advertising can be limited and may not always provide the desired results because you don’t see how they really perform.

Sound Bites

• "There's lots of people being taken advantage of in the digital marketing and advertising ecosystem today."
• "There are literally hundreds of billions of dollars that flow into that ecosystem that don't necessarily have careful accounting."
• "We're going to need to do these sketchy things that essentially take credit for sales that would have already happened, show people more ad results, reduce the quality of the organic results, make it harder to identify ads, force people to scroll down further, lazy load the organic stuff and quick load the paid stuff."
• "Treat digital advertising the way Coca-Cola treated billboards in 1965. Test different messages and campaigns in specific markets and analyze the lift in same-store sales to determine effectiveness."

Chapters

06:30 The Issues with Digital Advertising

10:22 Taking Advantage of the Digital Marketing Ecosystem

13:14 The Challenge of Proper Accounting and Attribution

18:29 The Misleading Nature of Digital Metrics

23:03 The Difficulty of Measuring the Best Marketing Channels

23:59 The Limitations of Paid Advertising and the Need for Innovation

25:27 The Impact of AI on Marketing and the Changing Web

28:10 The Value of Organic Initiatives in Marketing

29:31 Testing and Experimentation in Marketing

34:13 The Importance of Working with Competent Experts

41:26 The Significance of Qualitative Metrics in Marketing

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Summary

Kyle Pursell, the Head of Growth Optimization at Shopify, talks about impactful business strategies for growth.

What is the challenge of moving upmarket, and the role of product-led growth in driving this success. And why cross-functional collaboration in growth initiatives is often undervalued.

We also talk about the different paths to getting into growth roles and share their favorite podcasts and books.

Takeaways

• Building alignment and getting feedback before important meetings is never optional.
• Cross-functional collaboration is essential for effective growth initiatives
• Focus on maximizing user engagement in the first session to drive activation
• Implement strategies to retain customers who are canceling, such as offering compromises
• Consider different paths to getting into growth roles, such as starting in customer service or marketing

Sound Bites

• "Growth is not an overcomplicated craft. It's just identifying levers, using data to make decisions, experiment."
• "The aim of important meetings like that are just like a rubber stamp. Everyone is aligned."
• "Do not go into a meeting that is important to you without knowing how it ends."
• "Drive people as far down the funnel as possible in that first session as early as possible."

Chapters

07:01 Understanding GMV and Leveraging Metrics

14:28 The Power of Product-Led Growth

28:19 Optimizing Site Speed for Engagement and Conversion

32:10 The Importance of Cross-Functional Collaboration

35:30 The Importance of Stakeholder Alignment in Meetings

38:22 Maximizing User Engagement in the First Session

39:20 Strategies for Retaining Customers Who Are Canceling

51:34 Different Paths to Getting into Growth Roles

01:03:49 Unwinding with Podcasts and Books Outside of Your Field

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Leah on Linkedin / Twitter / Youtube

Summary

In the second conversation with Kieran Flanagan, SVP Marketing at Hubspot we talk about how we see AI really being used in tech and not just being a flashy thing you use once. From Sales, to Marketing to Product. Where are we today and where is all of this going?

The conversation explores the role of AI in strategy, the potential for AI-driven social networks, the impact of AI on user interfaces and customer service, the importance of data in AI tools, and the need for iterative refinement when using AI.

Takeaways

• AI can assist in strategy, but it requires human knowledge and the ability to ask for specific output.
• AI can improve user interfaces and customer service, but there is a risk of increased isolation and loneliness.
• Marketers and business leaders need to have a deep understanding of their own business before leveraging AI. 
• Challenges and limitations of AI include the need for large datasets and the resistance to adopting new software in sales.

Sound Bites

• "It’s not that AI cannot do strategy. You can't do strategy. You don't actually know how to talk to the AI and give it instructions in a way that would actually be helpful towards building a strategy."
• "AI can do a better job than nothing for people who are missing companionship, for people who feel like they are isolated, for people who just crave someone to be there at all times and talk to."
• "You give AI context, you teach it what good looks like before you use it productively."

Chapters

03:04 The Potential for AI-Driven Social Networks

05:59 AI and the Evolution of User Interfaces and Customer Service

08:52 The Importance of Data in AI Tools

14:17 The Limitations of AI in Understanding Context and Reasoning

31:12 Optimizing Workflows and Efficiency with AI

34:28 Enhancing Lead Generation and Conversion with AI

38:41 Improving the Customer Onboarding Experience with AI

44:26 Challenges and Limitations of AI in Sales

50:38 Using AI to Solve Real Problems and Create Value

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Dennis R. Mortensen is a serial entrepreneur and the founder of LaunchBrightly, which makes money by automating the most annoying things in our work lives (through AI).

We talk about why it’s important to own your own data set for competitive advantage and the misconception that successful entrepreneurs should become investors. Dennis refuses to do anything else other than focussing on his startups. No boards, no investing, just focus.

We conclude with a discussion on the future of user interfaces and the potential for voice-first products.

Takeaways

Owning your own data set is the only way to stay in business

Successful entrepreneurs are not obligated to become investors; they can continue to jump into the next startup

Genuinely hating a problem is the number one reason for motivation and success in solving it.

The future of user interfaces is uncertain, but voice-first products and more intelligent assistants are expected.


Sound Bites

"There is this belief, which I hate, that once you've had a little bit of success, say you make a startup, you get to the end, you make a few monies, you kind of won in that particular game, then you're supposed to become an investor, angel investor, something in between."

"I invite a bunch of folks to come and convince me to not do it."

"If we do more of this, everybody's happy."


Chapters

00:00 Owning Your Own Data Set for Competitive Advantage

03:03 Misconception of Successful Entrepreneurs as Investors

09:46 Automating the Process of Creating Product Screenshots

13:34 The Role of AI in Increasing Productivity

25:30 Genuinely Hating a Problem

26:28 Challenging and Deconstructing Business Cases

31:56 Tracking and Measuring KPIs

36:18 Owning and Operating Proprietary Data Sets

43:30 The Future of User Interfaces and Voice-First Products

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Summary

I talked with the amazing Andrew Ettinger from Appen about community-led growth in enterprise sales, the importance of cross-functional understanding, and the transformation of content and community in the sales process. 

We are also diving into the impact of AI on the industry and the need for cross-functional understanding and collaboration.

Takeaways

• Cross-functional understanding and collaboration between CROs, CPOs, and other leaders is crucial for successful sales strategies.
• The evolving role of lead scoring and product usage in sales
• The changing nature of sales and product management in the era of AI and automation

Sound Bites

• "Fundamentally, it doesn't matter what you sell. The way in which you need to generate demand is by building out content and value added interactions with the personas that your product or service can enable them to have a 10X better life."
• "If you provide enough high value and relevant content, what you're actually going to find is your form fills get much more detailed about the project."
• "We actually want to talk to all of these people because we learn and we wind up actually doing some projects, even at cost."

Chapters

00:00 Navigating the Challenges of Closing Deals in Modern Sales

05:23 The Role of Community-Led Growth in Enterprise Sales

08:12 Cross-Functional Understanding and Collaboration in Sales Strategies

16:30 Understanding Product-Market Fit in Modern Sales

26:29 The Impact of Data on Sales and Lead Generation

29:43 Evolving Role of Lead Scoring and Product Usage in Sales

31:33 Challenges and Opportunities of Inbound Leads and PLG

32:58 The Importance of Firmographics and Product Usage in Separating Leads

34:21 The Changing Nature of Sales and Product Management in the Era of AI and Automation

42:31 The Need for Cross-Functional Understanding and Collaboration in the Industry

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Summary

Jam.dev created a tool called Jam that helps product managers and engineers communicate and debug bugs more effectively. The company has grown to over 100,000 users and has fixed more than 2 million bugs.

They have adopted a unique approach to marketing, prioritizing community building and sharing their journey as builders. The company uses an R&D framework to evaluate and measure the success of their marketing initiatives.

I’m talking with Dany Grant about why it’s not just optional to be close to users in a product-led growth startup and why in-person interactions might matter more than you think.

Takeaways

• Jam.dev prioritizes community building and sharing their journey as builders to connect with their target audience.
• They use an R&D framework to evaluate and measure the success of their marketing efforts. 

Sound Bites

• "When you're a PLG company, the thing that's existential is are you giving value to your users."
• "We sometimes have this really weird thing with PLG companies that we just do not know who we're talking to because we do not foster this kind of real-life connection."
• "Even if we do not generate leads and money from the actual events, you kind of still do because you get information about who it is that is buying your stuff."

Chapters

03:51 Innovative Bug Reporting and Communication

08:13 Marketing Strategies: In-Person Events and Social Media

23:58 Being Close to Users in a PLG Startup

26:30 Understanding User Connections in PLG

27:54 Gaining Insights from Events and User Interactions

31:12 Struggles with Identifying the Ideal Customer Profile (ICP)

33:30 Onboarding Larger Companies through Smaller Teams

38:13 The Journey of Building a Startup and Team Growth

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Summary

Burnout and the pursuit of external validation in tech. 

The pressure to constantly achieve and the belief that success will bring happiness and fulfillment is driving some of us into ruin. It almost did with Andy Johns, he was never more successful and unhappier in his life until he his body hit the reset switch.

Top companies, top jobs, top titles. Achieve, achieve, achieve. And yet it’s never enough… A lot of us are chasing external validation so we don’t have to deal with and accept ourselves.

Takeaways

• The tech industry, with its emphasis on high performance and success, often perpetuates the cycle of burnout.
• Removing the masks we wear and being vulnerable with others is important for personal growth.
• Letting out suppressed emotions and desires is a crucial step towards healing and finding our true selves.

Sound Bites

• "The human superpower is the ability to imagine things that aren't real."
• "Not everyone who's succeeding, at least on paper, is doing as well on the inside as they are on the outside."
• "I was seeking something external to myself that would make me feel lovable, whole, and complete."

Chapters

03:42 The Pressure to Achieve and the Illusion of Happiness

09:56 The Importance of Self-Love and Addressing Traumas

15:45 The Tech Industry and the Cycle of Burnout

33:42 The Limitations of Free Will

37:35 Losing Touch with Our Authentic Selves

42:52 Strength in Vulnerability

57:03 Regretting the Delay in Self-Discovery

01:02:11 Depression as a Result of Suppression

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Summary

Chess.com has grown from being a simple chess service to a thriving 150 million ARR business. The company has focused on making chess accessible to everyone through services around a product that hasn’t changed in centuries.

We touch on the challenges of scaling a company and the role of titles and leadership in an organization and how many times Erik wanted to give up in the process.

Erik talks about the need for passion and love for the product, and the importance of hiring people who align with the company's mission.


Takeaways

Chess.com has expanded its user base beyond the chess community by making chess accessible to everyone instead of just pros.

Titles should not be the focus, and it's more important to hire people who are passionate and aligned with the company's mission more than anything else

Finding a balance between managing the company and staying involved in the product is key for being a CEO at a scale of 500 people and more.


Sound Bites

"Anyone can have a relationship with chess. It doesn't have to be old white guys in suits. It can be all genders, all ages, all races, all countries, all intellectual capacities. Chess is for everyone."

"Chess.com could not only serve the community, but we could grow the game and change the definition of who identifies as a chess player."

"Our next phase as a company is to be an engagement-focused business and drive revenue to invest in building the game and driving cooler media."

"Making money is just the fuel for the mission"


Chapters

15:39 Expanding the Chess Community

30:08 The Role of Growth Teams in Retention and Value Creation

37:03 Understanding User Cohorts and Behavior Tracking

39:21 Driving Revenue Growth Through Churn Analysis

41:29 The Role of Revenue in the Company's Mission

45:02 Using Metrics to Drive Product Improvement

54:04 The Challenges of CEO Responsibilities

01:02:32 Separating Leadership and Management Roles


My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

#productledgrowth

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Motivation, forming habits, managing time, and why it’s important to know how much you enjoy solving problems with Jason Fried.

Jason is really special to me and a 2nd time guest. Whenever we go at it, there are two worlds clashing in the best way possible. We are both never content with traditions and challenge the status quo; we just often disagree on how to challenge them while we agree on the first principles behind it all.

Our fight about calendars and time management is one of my favorite moments in the entire history of my podcast.

Takeaways

Real-world experience is the best way to learn and develop skills.

Consistency and finding what works for you individually are key to forming habits.

Calendars can be a useful tool for managing time, but it is important to protect one's time and not let others have too much control over it.

New employees at 37 Signals gain knowledge about the market and customers over time rather than being overwhelmed with information upfront.

Metrics should be used in conjunction with observation and intuition to make informed decisions.


Sound Bites
"The best way to learn is to do the work."

"If I'm putting something off for a long time, it's probably because I'm not motivated to get it done."

"The people you hire are pretty much your most important decisions you're going to make in any business ever essentially."

"At the one year point, we have to basically hire you again. This is how we think about it internally."


Chapters
02:02 Understanding and Harnessing Motivation
04:18 The Importance of Making the Right Hiring Decisions
06:16 Forming Habits: Consistency and Finding What Works
16:31 Managing Time: The Role of Calendars and Protecting Your Time
35:15 The Right Size for a Company vs Scaling
55:09 Measuring Subjective Factors in Product Development
58:53 Using Metrics and Intuition to Make Informed Decisions

Jason’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-fried/
Jason’s Blog: https://world.hey.com/jason

My Blog / Newsletter: www.leahtharin.com
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahtharin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeahThar

#productledgrowth

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Leah on Linkedin / Twitter / Youtube