Wine for Normal People – Details, episodes & analysis

Here’s something you probably didn’t know: Vienna is the only major city in the world where serious wine grown, with its own appellation, DAC Wien. In the green belt surrounding this very green city, wine grapes grow as they have since at least the Middle Ages. And it’s not negligible -- 582 ha/1438 acres. It’s also not crappy, tourist wine. It’s high quality, interesting wine that’s tasty and different. It’s become such a priority for Vienna and Austria that Viennese state law states that all existing vineyards must remain vineyards protecting valuable viticultural land from real estate speculation!

Standing side by side with the wine and with the Gemischter Satz blend is the unique tradition of the Heurige wine taverns. These are such an important part of Austria’s list of UNESCO intangible cultural heritage in 2019.

To discuss this amazing tradition that I bet you had little idea even existed, Alex Zahel joins. He's the 4th generation of the Zahel family and is the GM and winemaker of Zahel.

A great, eye opening show! 

Full show notes and all back episodes are on Patreon. Become a member today!

www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople

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Check out my exclusive sponsor, Wine Access.  They have an amazing selection -- once you get hooked on their wines, they will be your go-to! Make sure you join the Wine Access-Wine For Normal People wine club for wines I select delivered to you four times a year! 

To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth or get a class gift certificate for the wine lover in your life go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes

I welcome to the show my friend Giulio Abrigo of Abrigo Giovanni Azienda Agricola, who focuses on the exquisite Dolcetto in Diano d'Alba in the Barolo zone of Piemonte. Abrigo Giovanni is a small family operation, operating on just 13 ha or 32 acres mainly in Diano d’Alba -- the site of the winery and the family home. Dolcetto Diano d’Alba is one of a handful of DOCG zones for the grape – stricter controls and the top Dolcetto wines are made in this area. Here, the elevation, the soils, and the exposition are ideal for this highly underrated grape.

Abrigo Giovanni focuses on Dolcetto but for the past 11 years they also make a highly rated and awarded Barolo from the site of “Ravello” which has caught the attention of many wine critics, and, although not available in the US, they make the single best nocciole (hazelnut spread) I have ever had in my life. 

This is a fascinating look at the passion behind making a wine that is part of a long legacy and tradition, but frequently flies under the radar...for no apparent reason. After this show, you will want to run out and get Giulio's Abrigo Giovanni Dolcetto wines, and maybe even move to Diano d'Alba (his descriptions of it sound like paradise to me!).

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Full show notes and all back episodes are on Patreon. Become a member today!

www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople

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Check out my exclusive sponsor, Wine Access.  They have an amazing selection -- once you get hooked on their wines, they will be your go-to! Make sure you join the Wine Access-Wine For Normal People wine club for wines I select delivered to you four times a year! 

To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth or get a class gift certificate for the wine lover in your life go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes

My guest Felicity Carter is probably the most brilliant journalist in wine, and certainly one of the only ones doing vital investigative work in the field of wine, health, and the neo prohibitionist movement. From 2008 to 2021, she was editor-in-chief of Meininger’s Wine Business International, a global, English-language magazine, one of Germany’s oldest publishing houses. She reported from 22 countries in that position. She writes for Decanter, The Guardian, and pretty much every major prestigious wine publication out there.

Photo: Felicity Carter. Credit: https://felicitycarter.com.au/miscellaneous/

Felicity is the foremost authority on wine and health and has information about what is ACTUALLY going on with the “new” data on wine and health…talk about a malevolent hand. HOLY SH&T when you find out what is behind the WHO’s recommendation. Your jaw will drop…

Full show notes are on Patreon. Become a member today!

www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople

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Wine Access has an amazing selection -- once you get hooked on their wines, they will be your go-to! Make sure you join the Wine Access-Wine For Normal People wine club in time for the first quarter shipment (it's shaping up to be outstanding).  Get 10% your first order with my special URL. 

To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth or get a class gift certificate for the wine lover in your life go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes

This is a baffling story that includes a Napa history lesson, an idea of how the Valley has grown and then a jaunt into intrigue, sting operations, and what appears to be an effort to kill the goose that laid the golden egg by the Napa County government. It seems that the County is going after small wineries in an attempt to bankrupt them out of business. 

Friend of the pod, Stu Smith of Smith-Madrone joins to discuss and explain the situation -- at least the parts that have an explanation! 

If you want background on Smith-Madrone, check out...

Please support small wineries! Now, more than ever they need our help!!

Stu Smith, Smith-Madrone Vineyard

Lindsay Hoopes, Hoopes Vineyard

Full show notes are on Patreon. Become a member today!

www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople

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Wine Access  is my go-to source for the best selection of interesting, outstanding quality wines you can’t find locally. Make sure you join the Wine Access-Wine For Normal People wine club in time for the first quarter shipment.  Get 10% your first order with my special URL. 

To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth or get a class gift certificate for the wine lover in your life go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes

I first spoke to Marina Marcarino of Punset in 2017 and I was fascinated by her story and loved her wines. We became friends and I’ve visited her over the years and keep in touch with her for a pulse on what is happening in the vineyards and wineries of Barbaresco, where Punset is located.

Marina Marcarino of Punset Wines in Barbaresco

As a recap of the first show, when Marina Marcarino was in her early 20s, she took over the family vineyard in Neive, Barbaresco (Piedmont, Italy) and named it Punset. She had a revolutionary idea for the 1980s: to turn the vineyard organic. Marina became the first organic producer in Barbaresco. Her vineyards look different, her practices were strange to most back then and when she started using biodynamic in the 1990s, her reputation as “la pazza” – the crazy, was cemented.

Fast forward to today, and everyone has followed Marina and she has become one of the thought leaders in environmental stewardship of vineyards in Barbaresco. Those who once mocked her, now use the very same practices she pioneered and she has gained the respect of them all.

Photo: The Amazing Punset wines

When I was visiting Piedmont recently, I was able to catch up with Marina and ask her for an update about the region and about Punset. She is such a forward looking person -- this is a real opportunity to hear about what will likely be happening in wine and in Piedmont in the future.

We discuss controversial topics and general ones, and her insightful answers will have you thinking more deeply about the entire region and about farming, winemaking, and a little of life philosophy thrown in. She is the president of Albeisa, a consortium of quality producers who seek to educate and properly market the wines of the Langhe, and she shares some of the things she's done and is doing in that role as well. 

I hope you find her passion and intelligence as awesome as I do! Enjoy this one – you’ll learn so much!

Don't forget to listen to Ep 182, the OG with Marina that goes over her story...LINK

Full show notes are on Patreon. Become a member today!

www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople

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I love my exclusive sponsor, Wine Access, my go-to source for the best selection of interesting, outstanding quality wines you can’t find locally. You HAVE to check out our Halloween pack at https://wineaccess.com/wfnp-halloween/  -- Spooky wines for my favorite holiday! GREAT Wines and a ton of fun. Get 10% your first order with my special URL. 

To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes

In this show, I welcome my friend and wine industry guru Daniel Posner, the owner of the prestigious New York retailer, Grapes, The Wine Company.

Daniel joined Grapes, The Wine Company in 2000 and was the managing partner by 2004. For the past 23 years, he has been a wine consultant, with clients from all over the globe. He travels to wine regions to meet with producers, winemakers, winery owners, especially in his favorite areas of Burgundy, Piedmont, Tuscany, and California. He knows the ins and outs of the New York wine scene, and the inside dirt that is pretty fascinating to those of us on the outside.

Daniel also serves on the Board of Directors of the National Association of Wine Retailers, a national trade organization founded in 2006, for which he served as President from 2011 to 2019. I met him at the NAWR conference, where he and frequent podcast guest Tom Wark were gracious enough to have me.

Daniel has been featured and quoted in the New York Times, Wine Spectator, Food & Wine Magazine, Forbes Magazine, and The Wall Street Journal referred to him one of the most influential wine retailers in the United States. 

From how companies in Europe get their wine to the us, to pricing and how the producers and consumers lose out through layers upon layers of markups, to the murky politics of wine and international wine scandals, in the last 20+ years, Daniel has seen it all and he shares it in this show. This podcast will teach you more about the business of wine than almost any other I’ve done. I often talk about the shady underbelly of wine – here it is, exposed in all its glory!

Check out Daniel's amazing, curated selection and order wine for shipping (where legal!). 

https://www.grapesthewineco.com/

Full show notes are on Patreon. Become a member today!  www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople

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I love my exclusive sponsor, Wine Access, my go-to source for the best selection of interesting, outstanding quality wines you can’t find locally.

Go to www.wineaccess.com/normal to join my co-branded wine club with Wine Access and www.wineaccess.com/wfnp so see a page of the wines I'm loving right now from their collection.  Get 10% your first order with my special URL. Check out Wine Access today! 

To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes

For decades, Aldo Vacca has been the Managing Director of the Produttori del Barbaresco, the best and most successful wine co-op in Europe. Through his leadership and guidance, the Produttori has taken its wines, and with it, the wines of Barbaresco beyond Piedmont in northeastern Italy, to world renown. Aldo’s job at the Produttori is not just an occupation, it is his family legacy and a professional choice he made that has benefitted all who love Nebbiolo.

Photo: www.rarewineco.com

Aldo took a degree in Viticulture at the Torino University and worked at the prestigious University of California at Davis, after which he got one of the most coveted jobs in Piedmont – he got a job working for Gaja in 1986. But after 4 years, he realized that rather than fame and modernism, he wanted to do something that celebrated the land of Barbaresco and all it represented. He followed in the footsteps of his great grandfather and used his infinite knowledge of Nebbiolo and his skills at management and hospitality, to transform the Produttori into one of the best-known brands in Italy.

I have spent time with Aldo. He’s brilliant, cheeky, and passionate, and after two years, I’m so happy to have finally gotten him on the show. Aldo speaks to groups about the Produttori all the time, has been in lots of media, and he is absolute pro. This is a great show!

Here is a general outline of what we discuss:

• We discuss the harvest that just was (2022) – what was hard, what was normal, and the changes that the Barbaresco region has endured as climate change has taken hold here.

• Aldo discusses his family legacy in Barbaresco and how it ties into the region’s development. He tells us about the hard times in the region and how the Cantine Sociali and then the Produttori were formed to address the social and economic challenges of grape farmers in the 1800s and then again in the mid 1900s.

• We learn about the structure of the Produttori and how its quality standards, efficiency, and generosity make it so successful. Aldo tells us how the Produttori has managed to hold its members to such high standards.

Photo: Bottling at the Produttori del Barbaresco in May 2022
(c)Wine For Normal People 

• We get into the details on some of the logistics, the management and membership structure, and the winemaking philosophy (to let Barbaresco shine!). We discuss the extras the members get – knowledge sharing, status and prestige by being part of the Produttori, and the incentives to farm for quality not quantity. And why owning great land yields to great results – they own pieces of the best vineyards.

• Aldo tells us about the Barbaresco DOCG – the land, factors that make it different from Barolo, and the overview of the style of wine here. He talks about the MGA system (he refers to it as single vineyard, which is what they are) and what it means for the area.

• Aldo and I talk about the wines the Produttori makes, we discuss the flagship Barbaresco and how it is made, and the very affordable and delicious Langhe Nebbiolo, an important product to show people who are just getting into Nebbiolo what it can do and be. Aldo also helps us understand their single vineyard wines and why each expresses something so unique and individual, based on site

Photo: Aldo Vacca educates Wine For Normal People Patrons
(c)Wine For Normal People

• We end with a conversation of why the new generation of winemakers and land owners in Barbaresco is so great and Aldo’s great hope for a bright future for Barbaresco and the Produttori.

Here are links to all the wines the Produttori makes:

NEBBIOLO LANGHE D.O.C.

BARBARESCO D.O.C.G.

BARBARESCO D.O.C.G. RISERVA ASILI

BARBARESCO D.O.C.G. RISERVA MONTEFICO

BARBARESCO D.O.C.G. RISERVA MONTESTEFANO

BARBARESCO D.O.C.G. RISERVA MUNCAGOTA

BARBARESCO D.O.C.G. RISERVA OVELLO

BARBARESCO D.O.C.G. RISERVA PAJÈ

BARBARESCO D.O.C.G. RISERVA PORA

BARBARESCO D.O.C.G. RISERVA RABAJÀ

BARBARESCO D.O.C.G. RISERVA RIO SORDO

Photo: www.rarewineco.com

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Thanks to our sponsors this week:

Wine Spies uncovers incredible wines at unreal prices - on every type of wine in a variety of price points. It’s not a club and there’s no obligation to buy. Sign up for their daily email and buy what you want, when you want it. They have a build-a-case option, so you can mix and match wines while enjoying free shipping on every purchase. Visit www.winespies.com/normal you’ll get $20 credit to use on your first order! Check them out today!

If you think our podcast is worth the price of a bottle or two of wine a year, please become a member of Patreon... you'll get even more great content, live interactions and classes! 

www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople

To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes

Tom Wark is a wine writer, wine public relations company owner (Wark Communications), and our trusted resource for figuring out what is going on with the US wine industry and how it affects us, as wine drinkers. In his role as the executive director of the National Association of Wine Retailers, he manages and helps direct lobbying, litigation, and membership strategy and management for the retailers in the US and in that role has really helped dissect and expose some of the logistical and really cultural issues around wine in the US. He is the author of “Fermentation: The Daily Wine Blog”.

Photo: Tom Wark.
Source: "Fermentation Blog"

In this show we discuss a variety of topics, including the recent threat to US interstate wine shipping from the Uniform Law Commission. The bulk of our conversation revolves around the historical legacy of alcohol Prohibition in the US and the damage it caused to the way alcohol is sold, marketing and viewed in the United States.

Our main topics for the show:

• The latest news from the Uniform Law Commission, a body of lawyers from all 50 states who try to create laws that states can adopt and adapt based on common principles. We discuss the misguided nature of their proposals, and how it could potentially affect wine shipping in the United States
  
  
  
• The history of Prohibition in the United States – how it came about based on the events and culture of the 1910s and how, during the repeal, systems were set up that are now outdated but have enormous ripple effects in how wine is sold, distributed, and ultimately viewed in the US

The Crusaders were a group that fought to repeal Prohibition in the 1930s.
Photo: Smithsonian Institute

• We touch on the active temperance movement of today and why the temperance lobby has a big problem fighting against wine, in particular. We mention marijuana as well, and the coming reckoning for that new industry. Here is the Washington Post article we reference: “From Dry January to Fake Cocktails, Inside the New Temperance Movement”

• Tom tells us what the US market would look like without a three-tier distribution system (Hint: pretty awesome) and the multitude of choices it would open up for producers and retailers.

I highly recommend that you subscribe to Tom’s very well-written blog, which is full of excellent and novel thinking. Click here to sign up.

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Thanks to our sponsors this week:

 Wine Spies uncovers incredible wines at unreal prices - on Zinfandel, Barolo, Champagne...you name it - up to 75% off! It’s not a club and there’s no obligation to buy. They have a build-a-case option, so you can mix and match wines while enjoying free shipping on every purchase. Visit www.winespies.com/normal you’ll get $10 credit to use on your first order! Check them out today!

If you think our podcast is worth the price of a bottle or two of wine a year, please become a member of Patreon... you'll get even more great content, live interactions and classes! 

www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople

To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes

Elizabeth (Liz) Gabay, Master of Wine, is the world's foremost expert on rosé and a big part of her career has been studying, writing about, and understanding rosé. Ben Bernheim, her son, is now learning from her wisdom and and is a specialist in his own right. The two of them have just completed the excellent book “Rosés of Southern France” (which is now available on Amazon for purchase.

Liz is largely responsible for shifting the tide on rosé and helping people to understand that this wine is its own serious category that deserves thought, study, and consideration. In addition to the new book, Liz is the author of “Rosé: Understanding the Pink Wine Revolution,” and she is also a contributor on rosé in Decanter, The Drinks Business, The Buyer, SevenFiftyDaily, Meiningers, and many more prestigious publications.

Photo: https://www.elizabethgabay.com/about/  

The wisdom these Liz and Ben have on the subject of rosé is vast, and they are so fun, engaging, and real, that they make it all so interesting and accessible. This is an incredible education on rosé and will enjoy every minute of listening to these fantastic humans.

Photo: Ben Bernheim, taken by me when we were partners in a Beaumes de Venise mini-class in the Rhone Valley 4/22

Here are the things we discuss in the show:

• Liz talks about her background and how she got into wine. She discusses how, when she took the MW, it was a professional certification, and how it has changed dramatically over time. She discusses how she got into rosé, and how Ben got involved in it as well.

Then we get into the nuts and bolts of rosé

• Liz and Ben define rosé (harder than you think!). We discuss he book’s intro and what rosé is really about:

“We love rosé. We love its diversity, its complexity, and the infinite combinations of terroir, grape variety, vintage variation and winemaking that we find around the world. Many people think we’re crazy. They see rosé as a pale pink lightly alcoholic swimming pool tipple that somehow tastes better if you’re wearing a bikini. That isn’t what this book is about. “

Photo credit: Canva

• Liz and Ben tell us about rosé winegrowing:
  • Grapes that are commonly used(red AND white!)
  • The role of terroir in rosé
  • The picking decisions and harvest parameters that matter in making rosé
  • Climate change and how it is affecting grapes for rosé
    
    
    
• We talk next about rosé winemaking
  • We discuss the various ways to make rosé – direct press, limited maceration and saignée
  • We talk about some of the key factors in rosé winemaking:
    • Time on the skin
    • Yeast strains
    • Co-fermenting with whites
    • Fermentation vessel (oak v. stainless)
    • Temperature control in fermentation
    • Malolactic fermentation vs. no MLF
    • Aging/storage vessel and time – oak, cement, glass, amphora, etc

Photo credit: Canva 

• Liz and Ben tell us why rosé, can be ageworthy and why most isn’t. We also talk about lightstrike and why clear bottles are the worst thing for rosé.

• We cover the wines of the southern Rhône -- Tavel, Luberon, Ventoux, the rosés of Provence and Bandol and the wines of the Languedoc-Roussillon. We have an interesting conversation about Costieres di Nimes, which really drives home how certain regions can be outstanding but if they don’t send in samples to writers, or market their wines, they remain unknown.

• Liz and Ben help us understand how to buy better rosé.
  • They provide some shortcuts for finding better wines – like looking for sub regions in Cotes de Provence such as Ste. Victoire and La Londe.
  • We talk about how using Google maps to see where the winery is located can help you get better wines (e.g., If it’s in a cool mountain area, it may be crisp, if it’s nearer the ocean the wine may be fatter).
  • They discuss how essential it is to find out about the producer, since often producers want you to see the name “Provence” and buy the bottle…if you poke around a bit you may get a better idea about what you are getting so it’s not a surprise or disappointment

• Liz and Ben tell us about the trends in rosé – why it has become so popular, and what are great regions we should keep an eye on. Liz’s recommendations for countries/regions that have been making intresteing rosé (besides France!): Austria, Greece, Sicily (Etna especially), Spain (Clarete from Sigales, Rioja, Ribera del Duero, Navarra), Portugal (Douro, pink Port), Israel.

We end with a conversation on the future of rosé and what Ben and Liz hope for the category.

This is a fantastic conversation about a category of wine that is experiencing a big paradigm shift. Liz and Ben are some of the most normal, kindest, smartest people I’ve met in wine in a long, long while and the show is sprinkled with a ton of industry information – insider things that can help shed light on what goes on with producers, negociants, and writers.  I hope you enjoy and you are motivated to buy their wonderful book! Reach out to them at https://www.elizabethgabay.com/about/  

Photo credit: Canva

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From our Sponsors...

Wine Spies uncovers incredible wines at unreal prices - on big names or boutique brands from all over the world at up to 75% off! It’s not a club and there’s no obligation to buy. They have a build-a-case option, so you can mix and match wines while enjoying free shipping on every purchase. Visit www.winespies.com/normal you’ll get $20 credit to use on your first order! You can get some awesome deals on rosé!

If you think our podcast is worth the price of a bottle or two of wine a year, please become a member of Patreon... you'll get even more great content, live interactions and classes! 

www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople

To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes

Vinho Verde, the DOC (Denomination of Controlled Origin) Region, has made wine since Roman times. This region is one of the largest DOCs in Europe but within its boundaries there are vast differences between the nine sub regions. In this show,  Mafalda Teixeira Coelho, co-owner of Quinta da Raza and Pedro Campos, winemaker clear up a lot of the misconceptions about Vinho Verde. We learn about the terroir of this old and complex region, the various subregions, and how serious, and sometimes ageworthy wine is being produced here.

Photo: Mafalda Teixeira Coelho, co-owner of Quinta da Raza and Pedro Campos, winemaker (c)Wine For Normal People 

In September 2021, I visited the region and I just loved the wines of Quinta da Raza, I adored Mafalda and Pedro, and I thought they were perfect representatives to tell us about their corner of this big region, in Basto, and what they are capable of making in this unique terroir.

Here’s what we discuss in the show:

• The diversity of Vinho Verde, it’s 9 sub regions and how proximity to the sea, position in the mountains, and soil type make big differences in the grapes you can grow and the resulting wines.

Map: Vinho Verde Commission

• Pedro tells us about the Basto subregion, where Quinta da Raza is located. It is inland, on granite, schist, and clay soils. The location is a bit more continental with warmer summers and cooler winters than places near the coast, meaning grapes can get fully ripe and quite flavorful.

• To understand Vinho Verde, you must understand the nuance between the granite terroir v. the schist terroir. Pedro tells us what the differences are and why they matter.

• Mafalda shares the history of the estate and how it was passed down to her husband Diogo, who she manages things with today.

Mafalda Teixeira Coelho, co-owner of Quinta da Raza and her daughters,
(c)Wine For Normal People 

• Pedro tells us about the main grapes of the region: Azal, Alvarinho, Avesso, Arinto, Trajadura, and the reds Padeiro and Vinhão. He tells us about the various brands of Quinta da Raza
• • Dom Diogo is the traditional brand that is sold mainly in the Portuguese market
  • Quinta da Raza is a more international style, and where you’ll find those more serious whites like Alvarinho, Avesso, and Gouveio
  • Raza is the very traditional, fizzy Vinho Verde of Arinto, Trajadura, and Azal, with the Rosé made of Vinhão, Padeiro and Espadeiro
  • Nat their line of Pet Nat (Petillant Naturel), sparkling wine made in the ancestral method with a single fermentation happening in the bottle from which you drink it

• We discuss some of the important techniques they use to get high quality wine – traditional things like hand harvesting grapes and foot treading in stone lagares, and then more modern things like using stainless steel tanks and modern winemaking techniques.

Hand harvest at Quinta da Raza (c)Wine For Normal People 

• Pedro tells us Alvarinho and Avesso are good candidates for aging, with Gouveio as a possible third.

• We finish the conversation by talking about Quinta da Raza’s commitment to sustainability and the bright future for the Vinho Verde region and for the winery.

Quinta da Raza’s wines are fantastic. Seek out the basic Raza, but try to find the single varietals, they are inexpensive and drink way above their price point!

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From our Sponsors...

Wine Spies uncovers incredible wines at unreal prices - on big names or boutique brands from all over the world at up to 75% off! It’s not a club and there’s no obligation to buy. They have a build-a-case option, so you can mix and match wines while enjoying free shipping on every purchase. Visit www.winespies.com/normal you’ll get $20 credit to use on your first order! Don't forget to go to the store page to see what wines I love with descriptions I have written. 

If you think our podcast is worth the price of a bottle or two of wine a year, please become a member of Patreon... you'll get even more great content, live interactions and classes! 

www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople

To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes