The Serving Second Podcast with Dr. Toussaint Williams celebrates the unsung heroes of leadership—the associates, assistants, vice presidents, and right-hand leaders who make vision possible from the second chair. Not everyone wears the top title, but every leader carries weight. Through biblical insight, leadership lessons, and practical takeaways, discover how to win—even when you come in second. Subscribe and be equipped to lead with confidence, clarity, and courage.
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You went to bed thinking everything was fine. You woke up surrounded. In this solo episode, Dr. Toussaint Williams walks through 2 Kings 6, the story of Elisha's unnamed servant, to answer the question every second-chair leader eventually asks out loud: what am I supposed to do now?
This week Toussaint steps away from the interview chair for a solo teaching episode built around one of the most overlooked figures in scripture, the unnamed servant who serves the prophet Elisha. When a Syrian army surrounds the city hunting for Elisha, the servant is the first one to see it and the first one to panic. Toussaint uses that moment to unpack what it feels like to carry pressure you did not create, a reality every second-chair leader knows well. He also opens up about a difficult season his own family has walked through over the past few months, and the leadership lessons he is still working through in real time. The episode closes with a practical three-step framework for leading through a crisis without losing your footing.
In This Episode
Why the story of an unnamed servant in 2 Kings 6 says more to second-chair leaders than the story of the prophet does
What it means to carry pressure you did not create and did not ask for
A personal update on a season of family challenge Toussaint and his wife have been navigating
The difference between fear knocking on the door and fear getting a seat at the decision-making table
Why Elisha's first prayer was not for the problem to disappear, but for eyes to see clearly
A three-step framework for leading through a crisis: see clearly, seek perspective, move without panic
Timestamps
0:00 - The moment everything changes overnight
1:49 - The story behind the story: 2 Kings 6 and the unnamed servant
3:32 - The international crisis: the king of Syria hunts down Elisha
6:37 - The servant wakes up surrounded
9:47 - The most honest question in scripture: "What are we going to do?"
10:23 - Toussaint's personal story: a season of major family challenges
14:18 - What Elisha does not do, and why it matters
16:36 - Fear counts what is against you. Faith remembers who is for you.
19:04 - Elisha's prayer: "Open his eyes that he may see"
21:03 - The mountain was already full of horses and chariots of fire
22:16 - Calm is contagious. So is panic.
24:13 - The ending nobody expects: grace over violence
26:22 - Three steps for when you feel surrounded
28:37 - Closing encouragement
The Framework: When You Feel Surrounded
See clearly. Don't exaggerate the problem. Don't minimize it either. Call it what it is.
Seek perspective. Pause and pray. Invite wise counsel. Ask yourself what you might not be seeing right now.
Move without panic. Not without caution, not without prayer, but without panic. Take the next faithful step, then trust God with the one after that.
Connect with Dr. Toussaint Williams
Serving Second Podcast, helping leaders maximize the gifts in their hands and master the seat they currently occupy.
If this episode met you where you are, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a second-chair leader who needs to hear it this week.
He Left Work at 5 PM Every Day for 34 Years and Still Got Promoted - E37
Episode 37
Friday, July 24, 2026 • Duration 17:39
Your boss walks the floor at 5:15 checking who's still at their desk. Kevin Wayne Johnson made sure his chair was already empty, every single day, for over three decades in federal government leadership. He still made director. Here's how leading from the second chair taught him that presence at home builds the same trust presence at work does.
Episode Summary
Kevin Wayne Johnson spent 34 years in federal acquisition and contract management, rising to a director-level role overseeing teams in New York, Los Angeles, and London. He is also the author or co-author of 24 books on faith, leadership, and the writing craft, and he leads the Johnson Leadership Group today.
In this episode, Kevin traces his leadership foundation back to fatherhood, specifically to a father who served in Vietnam and stayed connected through recorded voice tapes mailed home. That model of presence became the standard Kevin held himself to with his own two hour daily commute and his own kids. He explains the choice he made to leave work at 5 PM without exception, why his leadership earned him the room to do it, and how that same discipline shaped his writing career.
This conversation is for the leader who feels like showing up for family and showing up for the mission are in competition. Kevin's story is proof they are not.
What You'll Learn
Why presence, not perfection, is the trait that shapes the next generation of leaders
How to set a hard boundary at work without losing your boss's trust or your next promotion
What earns you the credibility to protect your personal life when everyone else is staying late
How to build a writing or coaching practice around your life instead of sacrificing your life for it
The mindset shift from doing impressive work to making a positive impact on the people around you
Timestamps
00:00 Welcome to Kevin Wayne Johnson 00:21 The one thing that shaped his leadership: fatherhood 01:07 What his own father modeled growing up 03:12 Voice tapes from Vietnam and why presence matters to a child 04:23 The difference in proximity: his commute versus his father's absence 06:31 Telling his bosses that family comes first 08:08 Earning the trust to leave at 5 PM every day 09:47 What his director-level role actually involved 11:41 From federal career to 24 published books 14:44 Why he never pigeonholes his writing schedule 15:13 Making a positive impact without needing the spotlight 16:34 Where to find Kevin and the Johnson Leadership Group
Connect with Kevin Wayne JohnsonAbout the HostKeywords
Authenticity Matters - E28
Episode 28
Thursday, May 7, 2026 • Duration 45:29
Author Patty Hampton shares her journey of serving from the second seat, the importance of authenticity, influence, and listening in leadership, and how to thrive as a second chair leader. Discover practical insights on building trust, asking powerful questions, and leading with impact from a place of service.
In this episode of the Serving Second Podcast, Dr. Paul White shares his extensive experience in leadership and the importance of appreciation in the workplace. He discusses the five languages of appreciation, how they differ from traditional employee recognition, and the misconceptions surrounding appreciation. Dr. White emphasizes the need for authentic appreciation and provides practical steps for leaders to implement these concepts in their organizations, especially in hybrid work environments. He also shares transformative stories of organizations that have successfully integrated appreciation into their culture.
Keywords
leadership, appreciation, workplace culture, employee recognition, five languages of appreciation, Dr. Paul White, team dynamics, hybrid work, organizational behavior, employee engagement
Takeaways
Dr. White's journey from psychology to workplace appreciation.
The difference between employee recognition and authentic appreciation.
People want to be valued for who they are, not just their work.
The five languages of appreciation can enhance workplace relationships.
Misconceptions about appreciation can hinder its effectiveness.
Leaders should not delegate appreciation; it must be personal.
Remote work requires different strategies for showing appreciation.
Transformative stories highlight the impact of appreciation in organizations.
Small, consistent acts of appreciation can lead to significant change.
Understanding individual preferences for appreciation is crucial.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Dr. Paul White's Journey
04:40 The Five Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace
Your Story is Your Cheat Code! - E26
Episode 26
Thursday, April 23, 2026 • Duration 47:20
Your story is your CHEATCODE!!!
Toussaint sits down with Kirk Nugent for a powerful conversation on content, calling, service, and stewardship. Kirk is a digital strategist, media leader, missionary, coach, and content creator who helps people use their voice with clarity and purpose.
They go deeper than cameras, thumbnails, and algorithms. Kirk explains why content is not about chasing attention. It is about serving people at scale. He shares how your story, including your flaws, fears, struggles, and lived experience, can become the very thing God uses to help someone else.
Toussaint & Kirk also discuss the unique responsibility of second-chair leaders, assistants, associates, vice presidents, and behind-the-scenes servants. The message is clear: you do not have to be first to have impact. You do not have to be perfect to be useful. And you do not have to wait until everything is polished before you start serving.
Key Themes
Kirk explains that the parts of your life you may want to hide are often the very parts that qualify you to serve others. Your quirks, challenges, and imperfections can help people see themselves in your journey.
Instead of seeing video and social media as vanity tools, Kirk frames them as stewardship. One message can serve one person in a room, or it can serve thousands online.
Authenticity matters more in the age of AI. Kirk argues that AI has created a “trust recession.” People are more skeptical of polished content, which makes authentic human presence even more valuable. Second-chair leadership is still leadership.
The episode connects content creation with the broader Serving Second mission. Even if you are not the lead voice in your organization, you still have a voice that can serve, teach, encourage, and equip others. You are unfairly qualified to serve an earlier version of yourself.
Kirk gives one of the strongest takeaways of the episode: the best person you can serve may be someone who is where you used to be.
Memorable Quotes
“Don’t seek to go viral. Seek to serve.”
Call to Action
Leading Without the Title - E25
Episode 25
Friday, April 17, 2026 • Duration 36:06
In this episode, Toussaint interviews Ron Reich, a seasoned leadership development expert. They discuss Ron's journey into leadership, the importance of making a difference in second chair roles, and the challenges faced in leadership development. Ron emphasizes the significance of self-awareness, understanding different personalities, and the value of support staff in organizations. The conversation highlights the need for continuous improvement and the impact of effective coaching without criticism.
Keywords
leadership development, second chair roles, coaching, personality assessments, continuous improvement, making a difference, emotional intelligence, team dynamics, support staff, self-awareness
Takeaways
One of the most important parts of my career is the ability to make a difference.
You never know when you're making a difference in someone's life.
Stay out of the results business and focus on what you can control.
Leadership development impacts not just professional lives but personal lives too.
Consistency in leadership training is crucial for team success.
Understanding different personalities leads to better team dynamics.
Administering personality assessments can enhance workplace communication.
Recognizing the value of support staff is essential for organizational success.
Continuous improvement is key to effective leadership.
Self-awareness is critical for making better choices in career and personal life.
Leading after the Crisis - E24
Episode 24
Friday, April 10, 2026 • Duration 39:40
Summary
In this inspiring interview, Savio P. Clemente shares his profound journey through cancer, leadership, and resilience. Discover practical strategies for leading with authenticity, managing disruptions, and cultivating adaptive resilience to thrive beyond adversity.
Use the Aloha Reboot to reconnect with your inner self
Cultivate authenticity and vulnerability in leadership
Leverage AI tools for health and decision-making
Sound bites
"Authenticity is the key to true leadership"
"Listen to your body and trust its signals"
"Silence and stillness reveal your true self"
Chapters
The Enforcer! - E23
Thursday, April 2, 2026 • Duration 36:41
Ever wondered what it really takes to pull a seamless church service together?
Spoiler alert — it’s way more than just creating a runsheet! In this episode, I sit down with the worship manager, Danita Jones, to reveal the behind-the-scenes magic that keeps the spiritual flow smooth, timely, and impactful. Trust me, this is the secret sauce every young adult professional in church leadership or event planning needs in their back pocket.
In this episode:
How Danita's journey from theater to church leadership revolutionized her approach to worship management
The superhero role of a worship manager, compared to air traffic control—think controlling hundreds of moving parts every single week
The story behind the infamous church timer — and why time management isn’t just about clocks, but about creating meaningful moments
Balancing family, life, and a high-stakes church role without losing your mind (or your joy)
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - Dive into the world of worship management 00:24 - Introducing Danita Jones: worship director, mama, and all-around hero 00:38 - The little things that put a smile on your face—finding joy in the simple wins 01:25 - The importance of community and family—balancing motherhood and ministry 02:10 - The story behind her "crew" and her nearly 23-year marriage 04:23 - How worship management became her rhythm 05:14 - Demystifying the role of a worship manager—air traffic controller in the sky of church flow 06:12 - Building the perfect run sheet based on the pastor’s sermon length and service goals 08:53 - The chaos of tech mishaps 10:06 - Navigating a live service 12:05 - The story that ignited her passion: experiencing a time-managed service 14:11 - How the infamous church timer works 15:34 - Resetting the service flow 16:54 - From Nashville to Ohio: how one church trip changed her perspective on worship and time 17:20 - The story that made her realize every church needs a worship manager 20:15 - Tips and tricks: how to orchestrate services that inspire, move, and leave people on fire for God
Resources & Links:
From HR to ESPN? - E:22
Episode 22
Thursday, March 26, 2026 • Duration 35:59
Ever feel like you're stuck in the shadows or just playing a supporting role in life's grand play?
Well, buckle up, because today’s episode is all about embracing that second seat — and turning it into a throne of influence, purpose, and potential! Kirk, aka The Seed Sower Coach, spills the secrets of how serving behind the scenes can lead to extraordinary breakthroughs, both in careers and in life. Spoiler alert: your greatest impact might just come from the roles nobody celebrates first!
In this episode:
How faith transforms the idea of leadership into service without ego
Kirk’s journey from HR to ESPN and coaching — and how mentorship unlocked new pathways
The behind-the-scenes magic of producing a major sports broadcast with hundreds of crew members
Why age is just a number — Kirk's tips for thriving in your 60s and beyond
The metaphorical power of seeds and soil in coaching, growth, and potential
Practical wisdom for those serving in secondary roles: unlocking unseen gifts
The importance of community, contribution, and the power of perspective in life's seasons
How to keep learning and growing when the spotlight isn't on you
Timestamps:
00:00 - Unlocking your potential through service and faith
01:03 - Kirk’s leap from sports stats to ESPN and coaching
02:25 - The value of mentorship and career pivoting
03:43 - How ESPN launched Kirk into broadcasting stardom behind the scenes
07:23 - Lessons learned from supporting roles in high-stakes sports productions
11:16 - Navigating leadership tension in second seat roles
13:03 - Unlocking potential in others & self through coaching
16:52 - The story behind "The Seed Sower" — planting and nurturing growth
Resources & Links:
The Path to Clarity- E21
Episode 21
Thursday, March 19, 2026 • Duration 29:58
Clarity Starts With ME!
In this episode, Dr. Toussaint Williams reflects on leadership from the second chair, emphasizing clarity, purpose, and practical strategies for leaders who serve without the final say. He shares insights from conversations with leadership expert Seth Yelorda and offers actionable tips for second chair leaders to enhance their impact.
Dr. Toussaint Williams is a pastor, author, and leadership consultant, and the host of the Serving Second Podcast, the show for the leaders behind the leaders. Second-chair leadership is not lesser leadership. It is strategic leadership.
leadership development, second-chair leadership, leading from the second chair, work life balance for leaders, federal government leadership, executive leadership, influence without authority, faith-based leadership, associate pastor leadership, Serving Second Podcast
07:44 Understanding Employee Recognition vs. Authentic Appreciation
10:54 Exploring the Five Languages of Appreciation
13:33 Misconceptions About Appreciation in the Workplace
16:56 The Role of Leaders in Fostering Appreciation
19:44 Implementing Appreciation in Hybrid Work Environments
22:38 Transformative Stories of Workplace Appreciation
25:42 Practical Steps for Leaders to Encourage Appreciation
28:45 Connecting with Dr. Paul White and Resources
“You are unfairly qualified to serve an earlier version of you.”
“We are all second because we serve the One.”
“God is still writing in your story.”
Visit Kirk Nugent online at kirkarnugent.com to learn more about his coaching, challenges, and resources.
Subscribe to the Serving Second Podcast and share this episode with someone who knows they have something to say, but has been waiting for everything to be perfect.
Serving Second is where we celebrate the unsung heroes of leadership, the associates, the VPs, the chiefs of staff, the right hands, the steady ones who make the mission move.
Join Dr. Toussaint Williams and guests for real conversations about the wins, the weight, and the behind-the-scenes reality of leading without being the headlines... to help second-chair leaders create first-place outcomes.
New episodes weekly. Follow, subscribe, and turn on notifications so you do not miss what’s next.
00:00 Introduction
02:40 Introduction & Journey to Leadership Clarity
05:07 The Impact of Personal Health Crises
07:45 Navigating Cancer Diagnosis and Relapse
08:44 Cancer Fight - Stage 3
09:28 Cancer Relapse - 10 years later
11:22 Finding Purpose in Adversity
17:17 Empowerment Through Knowledge and Self-Regulation
18:51 Navigating Disruptions: Self-Regulation and Participation
19:31 Life After Crisis: Performance Under Pressure
20:59 Psychological Distancing: Finding Clarity in Chaos
22:14 Silence and Stillness: The Power of Reflection
23:41 Adaptive Resilience: Flexibility in Adversity
25:00 Spiritual Exile: The Journey of Healing
26:04 Finding Peace: Slowing Down in a Fast-Paced World
27:24 Aloha Reboot: Embracing Your Inner Self
29:59 Humility in Leadership: Authenticity Over Performance
33:07 Leading with Clarity: Embracing Vulnerability
Get inspired to serve second, lead humbly, and unlock your God-given potential!
Don't wait for the spotlight — your greatest impact might just shine from the shadows. So, if you're feeling underrated, undervalued, or simply in the second seat right now, remember — that seat might just be your launchpad. Oh, and by the way: your next chapter is just one seed away from blooming!
Serving Second is where we celebrate the unsung heroes of leadership, the associates, the VPs, the chiefs of staff, the right hands, the steady ones who make the mission move.
Join Dr. Toussaint Williams and guests for real conversations about the wins, the weight, and the behind-the-scenes reality of leading without being the headline. This is not hype. It’s practical coaching, honest stories, and faith-rooted perspective to help second-chair leaders create first-place outcomes.
We talk leadership, identity, decision-making, confidence, communication, and calling, plus the real life stuff that comes with carrying responsibility at work and at home.
The mission: The mission you serve is bigger than your title. If you’ve ever felt overlooked, under-credited, or stretched thin, this is for you.
New episodes weekly. Follow, subscribe, and turn on notifications so you do not miss what’s next.
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