Marketing Agency Exposed Podcast – Details, episodes & analysis

Navigating the promises and pitfalls of the agency-client relationship. Discover strategies for aligning expectations, establishing boundaries, and crafting clarity around goals, metrics, and shared vision. The key to success? Honest communication, mutual understanding, and a relationship built on trust and partnership.

In this week's episode, the guys delve into the nuances of managing client expectations and optimizing the agency-client relationship. Bob kicks things off by highlighting the disconnect that can occur when clients request general awareness and agencies deliver specific metrics. Ken emphasizes that agencies can only control their expertise, not guaranteed outcomes, since external factors also influence results. Brad shares an example where a client disregarded research recommendations, then blamed the agency when their gut instinct didn't pan out. Bob advocates for an immersion day to align on goals and strategy before engagement. Ken argues that clients should view agencies more like employees, carefully vetting values and vision. He notes that in successful past relationships, mutual philosophy and respect were key. Brad stresses empathy for clients' high-stakes position while hiring agencies. Bob recommends using tools like HumanIK to analyze clients' psychological profiles and craft tailored communication. In closing, the guys encourage honest, ongoing dialogue to establish shared expectations and boundaries. Keeping clients' ultimate aims top of mind, whether fame or fortune, can help agencies LEAD expectations by forging trust, partnership and clarity.

1. Agencies: Guide, Don't Guarantee. Agencies should view themselves as experts and guides, not miracle workers promising guaranteed outcomes. While skilled advisors can absolutely influence results, many external factors also contribute to an agency's impact. Establish reasonable expectations by being upfront about what your expertise can and cannot control. Guide clients to success without overpromising uncontrollable results.

2. Clients: Seek Shared Values, Not Just Skills. When hiring an agency, look beyond just skills to carefully assess if their values, vision and problem-solving philosophy align with yours, as you would with a new employee. Shared principles and mutual respect create the foundation for successful relationships, not just temporary wins. Avoid viewing agencies as interchangeable vendors to be swapped out. Seek out an agency that is a true fit.

3. Both: Define Success in Their Language. Switchtracking wastes time and fractures trust. Make sure you're speaking the same language when defining goals and metrics for success. Agencies: Interpret marketing-speak into practical business aims clients care about. Clients: Articulate your ultimate definitions of victory. Laser focus on shared communication pays dividends.

• Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast

• Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders

Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from 2000-2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:

• Bob on LinkedIn

• Bob on Twitter

• Bob on Instagram

• Bob on Facebook

Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad:

• Brad on LinkedIn

• Anthem Republic

• Brad on Twitter

• Brad on Instagram

• Brad on Facebook

Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:

• Ken on LinkedIn

• Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team

• Growth Rebel TV

• Ken on Twitter

• Ken on Instagram

• Ken on Facebook

[1:42] Brad introduces the topic of managing client expectations around results when working with agencies.

[3:18] Ken discusses how agencies can only control their expertise, not guarantee outcomes.

[5:39] Brad shares an example where a client disregarded research recommendations, then blamed the agency when it didn't work.

[8:20] Ken argues clients should view agencies like employees, carefully vetting values and vision.

[11:37] Brad stresses empathy for clients' high-stakes position while hiring agencies.

[17:47] Brad highlights the difference between what clients say and what they actually want.

[22:11] Ken emphasizes the importance of mutual philosophy and respect in successful agency-client relationships.

[28:55] Bob advocates for defining perfect customer criteria to evaluate fit.

[32:13] Brad discusses the high-risk stakes for clients hiring agencies.

[33:40] Ken compares hiring an agency to hiring an employee.

[38:38] Bob recommends using HumanIK to analyze clients' communication styles.

[41:16] Brad suggests identifying red flags early to navigate new client relationships.

[42:36] Bob reminds listeners to like, subscribe and check out the new 3-camera format on YouTube.

Learn how to get the highest returns on your time and money investments. The guys provide actionable tips on becoming a "time multiplier," maximizing conference experiences, starting a podcast, and aligning your efforts with principles that create exponential growth. Discover how to build assets that compound over time.

In this episode, the guys discuss strategies for investing time and money wisely to achieve optimal returns. They talk about the concept of becoming a "time multiplier" by investing time upfront into tasks that eliminate repetitive work and create compounding returns. For example, spending time to automate processes saves ongoing effort in the future. They emphasize the importance of focusing on high-impact activities versus low-value repetitive tasks. Regarding conferences, the guys debate their value, with mixed opinions. Conferences can offer opportunities to connect and gain insights, but often lack real ROI. More curated events like TED provide better educational experiences. Interactive workshops and pre-recorded talks can also enhance conferences. Ultimately, investing in a mastermind group or coach provides higher returns than conferences for many. Starting a podcast is highlighted as a worthwhile investment; it enables access to high-profile individuals and provides a platform to share valuable insights. The guys stress the power of aligning efforts with universal success principles that compound over time, whether in business or personal contexts. Rather than scarcity, adopting an abundance mindset is key. Overall, the episode provides pragmatic tips for becoming a wise steward of time and money, creating assets that continue to pay dividends into the future.

1. Become a time multiplier. Dramatically increase your productivity by identifying tasks that eliminate repetitive work. Invest time upfront into efforts that create exponential returns in the future. Automating processes is a simple example that saves huge amounts of time long-term. Become a wise steward of your most precious asset.

2. Conferences have mixed value. Conferences offer networking but often lack real ROI compared to other investments like masterminds or coaches. Look for events with genuine educational experiences like TED. Interactive workshops and pre-recorded talks can also enhance conferences.

3. Adopt abundance and success principles. Shift to an abundance mindset regarding time and money. Align efforts with universal success principles that compound over time. Start a podcast to share your own insights. Keep learning and growing through the ups and downs.

Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: 

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kennethott/ 

• Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team - https://metacake.com/ 

• Growth Rebel TV - https://mtck.co/YouTube-2Y5GUQ9 

• Twitter - https://twitter.com/iamkenott?lang=en

• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/iamkenott/ 

• Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/iamKenOtt/

Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: 

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobhutchins-cmo-chief-marketing-officer-growth-hacker-digital-marketing-executive/ 

• Twitter - https://twitter.com/bobhutchins?lang=en 

• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/bwhutchins/?hl=en 

• Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100039351973426 

Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad:

• Linked In - https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradayres/

• Anthem Republic - https://www.anthemrepublic.com/ 

• Twitter - https://twitter.com/bradayres?lang=en

• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/therealbradayres/?hl=en 

• Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/Bradayres 

[5:08] Ken talks about the importance of good times and bad times in life and business for growth.

[7:09] Bob asks the guys about their thoughts and predictions for 2023 and changes they'll make in their businesses.

[7:34] Brad discusses focusing on new business development, evaluating their services, and figuring out how to better serve current clients in the new year.

[11:52] Ken emphasizes the importance of profit and the misconception that high profit is greedy or selfish.

[18:27] Bob discusses changing mindsets and beliefs around profit.

[20:30] Brad applies the adage "shoot for the stars, land on the moon" to goal setting.

[22:22] Ken suggests questions agencies should ask themselves to prompt mindset shifts.

[25:54] Bob talks about becoming a "time multiplier" and investing time to get exponential returns.

[28:50] Brad compares the concept of a time multiplier to compound interest.

[31:13] Brad emphasizes the importance of setting measurable goals and targets.

[33:23] Ken introduces his new show "Growth Time" and the topics and episodes he's covered.

[38:59] Brad asks about the frequency of Ken's podcast and how often guests appear.

[40:49] Ken commits to releasing a book by the end of 2023 based on his podcast.

Subtitle:

When most people think about AI, they think of the dangerous robots or technology from movies that destroy the human race. Though AI does have the potential to be dangerous, it also has a lot of potential to assist businesses by creating content, cleaning up writing, and helping with research. Today, the guys dive into the practical uses and dangers of Chat GPT and AI. They also talk about communication, misinformation, human nuance, Wall-E, and more on this week’s episode.

Summary:

In this week’s episode, Bob, Ken, and Brad engage in a discussion about Chat GPT and AI. Bob starts by asking how the guys use AI practically in their agency and business. Bob also explains that machine learning is the precursor to AI and has been around since the 1960s. He defines AI as generative, meaning it takes a prompt and tries to match and complete the thought as accurately as possible. The group then delves into the importance of words and communication in human relationships. They consider if it is the words alone, the context of the words, or the embodiment behind the words that matter most. Bob highlights the complexity of communication and how AI may struggle to understand the nuances of human language and relationships. Brad shares his experience exploring and using Chat GPT. He tests its capabilities and tries to find ways to use it to save time and create authentic content. He also discusses the amount of information that Chat GPT can retain as context, which affects its ability to generate accurate responses. Ken brings up the importance of using technology and AI wisely, leveraging time and avoiding the dangers of atrophy. He warns about relying too heavily on AI and losing valuable skills, such as writing. Brad agrees and highlights how Chat GPT has helped him save time and create content. Ken then asks Brad if he has used Chat GPT for research purposes. Brad discusses the extensive knowledge that Chat GPT has and also raises concerns about the dangers of AI creating and publishing false information. He emphasizes the importance of fact-checking and ensuring the accuracy of the information generated by AI. Brad highlights that the value of writing is not the writing itself, but the concepts behind it. Bob elaborates on the idea that AI does not have the same understanding of nuances as humans do, which could lead to misinformation. He explains that AI is only trying to give what it thinks the user wants, but has no incentive to provide what is true and accurate. Bob raises the concern about the potential for the best AI to become a tool solely for wealthy individuals and businesses. He warns about the unequal distribution of technology and the consequences of a small group having access to such powerful tools. Finally, Ken wraps up the discussion with a warning about the need for discipline in balancing technology and human skills. He emphasizes the importance of finding a balance between using technology and preserving valuable skills, such as critical thinking and writing. He stresses that there is no self-discipline in technology, and it is up to us to exercise discipline in its use.

Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: 

1. AI has the potential to increase your comfort or leverage; choose wisely. AI can revolutionize the way we live and work, offering new levels of comfort and efficiency. Whether you're looking to streamline your daily tasks, automate repetitive processes, or gain insights from large data sets, AI has the potential to increase your comfort and leverage in many ways. However, the danger of atrophy remains so it is vital to examine the motives behind using AI. “There's two ways you can use technology and AI. One way is to increase comfort, and the other way is to increase leverage.”

2. AI is a tool, not a human. AI is a useful tool but lacks the emotions, empathy, and understanding of human relationships that are essential to many aspects of our lives. By recognizing the limitations of AI and balancing its use with human skills, we can unlock its full potential and use it to enhance our lives and work. “There's no self discipline to balance technology with not technology. We have to exercise a lot of human discipline with these things, because they're really powerful.” 

3. The dangers of AI are very real.The dangers of AI are real and can't be ignored. It lacks human nuance and context, leading to misinterpretation and false information. Misinformation spread by AI can have serious impacts, so it's important to use AI transparently, accurately, and responsibly to avoid these dangers and ensure its benefits to society. “It's just trying to give you what it thinks you want, but it has no incentive to give you what is true and what is accurate.”

For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes:

• Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast

• Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders

About The Guys: 

Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: 

• Bob on LinkedIn

• twitter.com/BobHutchins

• instagram.com/bwhutchins

• Bob on Facebook

Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad:

• Brad on LinkedIn

• Anthem Republic

• twitter.com/bradayres

• instagram.com/therealbradayres

• facebook.com/Bradayres

Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: 

• Ken on LinkedIn

• Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team

• Growth Rebel TV

• twitter.com/iamKenOtt

• instagram.com/iamKenOtt

• facebook.com/iamKenOtt

Show Notes:

[0:42] Bob begins a discussion about this episode’s topic, Chat GPT and AI. 

[1:35] Ken asks the guys how they use AI practically for agency and business.

[3:14] Bob talks about how machine learning is the prequel to AI, and AI has been around since the 60s. He says that AI is, “what we call generative. It's taking a prompt and it's actually trying to match that prompt and finish that thought and make it as accurate as possible.”

[5:45] Bob dives deep and asks, “what's the importance of words and communications in how we relate to other human beings? Is it the words alone? Is it the context of the words? Or is it the actual embodiment of someone behind those words?” 

[10:00] Brad talks about some of the practical ways he’s been exploring and using Chat GPT. “I'm just testing it out, I'm trying to figure out how this thing can help me. What type of processes can I throw at it that it would give me the results I'm looking for? how much information could it retain, that it can use as context?”

[13:48] Ken talks about the importance of leveraging your time wisely and how to use technology and AI to either increase comfort or leverage; he also discusses the dangers of atrophy. “If you just asked it to write everything for you, eventually you'd lose the ability to write.”

[15:39] Brad talks about other ways he’s been using Chat GPT and how it has helped him save time and create authentic content. 

[18:29] Ken asks, “Have you used it for anything on the research side of things?”

[18:33] Brad discusses the extensive knowledge that Chat GPT has and also launches a discussion about the dangers of AI creating and publishing false information. 

[21:25] Brad says that, “The value of writing is not the writing. It's the concepts.”

[23:57] Bob elaborates on the idea that AI doesn’t have the same understanding of nuances as humans do and how this could lead to misinformation and its various dangers. “It's just trying to give you what it thinks you want, but it has no incentive to give you what is true and what is accurate”

[33:49] Bob talks about the potential for the best AI to become a tool solely for wealthy individuals and businesses. 

[36:18] Ken wraps up with a warning, “There's no self discipline to balance technology with not technology. We have to exercise a lot of human discipline with these things, because they're really powerful.”

Summary:

Understanding the importance of great content creation is the first step in moving towards a killer content strategy- everyone knows they should be doing it, but prioritizing content creation over client work isn’t always the most appealing prospect. In today’s episode, we dive into the DEEP value in creating your own content and how the process has worked for us in our own agencies. 

Top 3  Curtain Pulls in this episode: 

1. If the content you’re creating isn’t genuine and true to who you are as a business, people will pick up on that. Stay true to your message and brand- don’t put out content just to get it out the door. 
2. Writing a book is a great initiative- promoting that in different places is a powerful way to connect your name with your industry. 
3. Great content is a long play. While your lead counts may not go up right away as a result, the QUALITY should shift over time. Focus on your industry specialty, creating great content that speaks to those pain points withe unique perspective, and the clients will find YOU!

For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes:

• Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast
• Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders

About The Guys: 

Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: 

• Bob on LinkedIn
• twitter.com/BobHutchins
• instagram.com/bwhutchins
• Bob on Facebook

Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad:

• Brad on LinkedIn
• Anthem Republic
• twitter.com/bradayres
• instagram.com/therealbradayres
• facebook.com/Bradayres

Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: 

• Ken on LinkedIn
• Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team
• Growth Rebel TV
• twitter.com/iamKenOtt
• instagram.com/iamKenOtt
• facebook.com/iamKenOtt

Show Notes:

[3:24] Brad talks about the challenge of beginning the process of content creation for yourself, reflecting on the idea that it’s not selfish to do so but actually an important investment! “We need to be our #1 client… and it’s really difficult to get employees on board with that.” 

• He shares the struggle of perfectionism, wanting to get everything 100% perfect when in reality 85% is great. 

[4:55] Ken talks about how difficult it is to get your voice heard amongst the other screaming voices in the industry.

[7:18] Ken says that creating a strong voice for yourself that is based on being a thought leader in the industry is the philosophy for Metacake.

[7:26] Bob: “I know for me,one of the things that was really successful was Itried to blog and write a lot and try to position myself as somebody who knew what theywere talking about. In that field.”

[9:25] Bob speaks about how agencies should think of themselves more as a media company that just marketing and/or advertising. 

•  One simple way to start: Write a book! Being able to say you’ve authored a book about the subject matter you’re speaking about automatically adds legitimacy to your “thought leader” role. 

[14:05] Brad asks Bob to talk about content writing, as it’s something Bob has been a strong advocate for for a long time. 

[15:00] Bob responds: “Over time, if you see content writing as part of your longterm strategy, there is power in that. You can google the name of my agency and stuff I wrote 10 or 15 years ago still pops up.”

• Think of yourself as an agency “on the offensive” and play from an offensive perspective-  creating more content with your name on it means you’re first to come up in Google listings. 

[19:00] Ken talks about what truly good content is and how much investment of time and energy it really takes. Properly writing about new ideas or strategies takes a lot of time and intentionality.

[23:00] Brad: When you’re writing, look at the news of the day and write about it from the perspective of your own industry and how it relates. 

[25:26] Brad: Consistency is key- the biggest influencers and content creators in the world didn’t happen into their success, they showed up every day and put the work in. Be consistent in your content creation and the results will come over time. 

[27:47] Ken speaks on finding your unique point of view and passion for that perspective. 

• “In my opinion, you should not write for search engines. Write for people, find your passion, and then you get the best of both worlds… you want to help align them with the services that you offer.” 

[36:00] Ken continues to speak on client who are hungry for a specific type of agency relationship- “there is an appetite for good educational content that people could do to help sell themselves or their business” and so Metacake serves to fill that need. 

• “You have to balance short term activities that drive revenue with longterm activities that will build recognition and benefit your business in 5, 10, 15 years.” 

[39:11] Brad asks Ken about how he gets Metacake behind his content strategy as a team. 

[40:09] Ken: “I think being genuine is really important because… if you’re not genuine and it’s really contrived, you do it just to put a content strategy out… that’s not true to who you are. I think people will feel that hypocrisy and I imagine it will be harder to to get behind longterm, but the truth is a big part of our heart is what we believe our purpose is as a business.”

[41:00] Ken responds: “I believe a product that all agencies sell information and experience… you might deliver that by creating a website, or you might deliver that by writing a book, but you’re still brokering information and experience.”

• “I’ve tried to intentionally instill that in our team and discuss it… being genuine about what we’re doing has helped create a sort of mantra in the office, and our team is excited about it now… educating our world with how to create a better business using e-commerce. We get to teach people about having a healthy business… and even if you’re an executive at the top direct consumer company in the world, you can still laugh. And so we don’t want to be a talking head, but we want to have a personality that’s true to us and also a little bit fun.”
• He talks about how Metacake has used humor and silliness in YouTube content to get people’s attention and help establish a personality for Metacake through this process. Sometimes those efforts don’t quite hit the mark, but they’re fun and informative!

[48:00] Brad talks about the importance of deciding where to spend your money wisely- the process of trying something new can pay off massively in learning for your team. 

• Brad’s agency Anthem hosted lunch and learn session for local businesses a few years back- and they became a much more recognized company as a result. Ken shares that although they may not have gotten immediate ROI for these events, they reaped rewards in other ways.

[48:21] Ken “I have a theory that most of the reason why people don’t put effort into content strategy is they don’t know where to start- what to talk about, what their personality and style are going to be. And so put time into that- that’ll prove returns but also, just DO IT.” 

[51:42] Bob speaks on the next episode, and how The Guys will dive into maximizing content and some of the tools that are used to make this happen. “We’ve convinced you to focus on this content creation, but now we need to know where to start.” 

Summary:

In today’s episode, we talk with Chris Brewer about the challenges his agency has faced since March of 2020. Chris breaks down the steps he and his team took to gain stable financial footing early on, the way that their team culture and mindset has impacted their client relationships throughout the pandemic, and the value that comes from creating loyalty with your team and clients in hard times.

Top 3  Curtain Pulls in this episode: 

1. Don’t do business with jerks! Bring clients (and team members) on board that you know are aligned with your philosophies- this is for the benefit of your team as well as the quality of work that you’re putting out. 
2. Transparency with your team will only help to build up confidence in your decision making- this builds a team culture that will support you even in the worst crisis. 
3. Embracing a hybrid model of working from home/ from the office/ remotely will empower your team- you may even see productivity increase!

For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes:

• Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast
• Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders

About Our Guest: 

Chris Brewer is the co-founder of OMG Commerce. He is a 10 year Agency veteran out of St Louis with experience building 7-figure businesses. OMG Commerce has the honor of being a Premier Google Partner- something that only 3% of Google Partner businesses attain. OMG delivers online/offline marketing expertise, advice, and education to ecommerce businesses and brands worldwide.

• Chris on LinkedIn
• OMG Commerce Website
• twitter.com/momarketer

About The Guys: 

Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: 

• Bob on LinkedIn
• twitter.com/BobHutchins
• instagram.com/bwhutchins
• Bob on Facebook

Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad:

• Brad on LinkedIn
• Anthem Republic
• twitter.com/bradayres
• instagram.com/therealbradayres
• facebook.com/Bradayres

Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: 

• Ken on LinkedIn
• Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team
• Growth Rebel TV
• twitter.com/iamKenOtt
• instagram.com/iamKenOtt
• facebook.com/iamKenOtt

Show Notes:

[4:09] Ken introduces Chris Brewer, founder of OMG Commerce. “His company has risen to a level that less than 3% of all Google Partner Agencies worldwide attain- the rank of premier partner… this company delivers online/offline marketing expertise, advise, and education to ecommerce businesses and brands worldwide. Chris has a history of building 7-figure businesses. In addition to the incredible growth and success with OMG, his entrepreneurial accomplishments have included an outdoor advertising firm and a publishing company.” 

[4:58] Bob asks Chris about how Covid-19 has impacted their business. “Has it really brought a whole new level of business for you?”
[5:15] Chris responds that the first couple weeks of March were scary and unstable, and leads just stopped coming in. They applied for PPE loans out of a sense of urgency and then wound up having to hire more individuals for the team. He talks about having survivors guilt once the pandemic is over, as he’s aware that it’s been devastating for many. 

[6:17] Bob asks who Chris’ typical client is. 

[6:23] Chris responds: For Amazon clients, having at least a million in annual revenue is necessary- for the Google clients they must be spending at least 5K a month over the last 90 days. 

• He talks about limiting the number of new clients they take on, so as to keep their employees afloat and not overworked and also to keep their quality of work high. 
• They don’t do business with people who are jerks- people who are not in it for the long-term and those who treat people in a disrespectful way. 

[7:42] Bob asks how they filter those people.

[7:48] Chris responds that he collaborates with his business partner and they both call attention to potential red flags for themselves. 

• They want to work with brands who have past success, who are willing to take chances and come into the relationship with an education about how things work. Taking on a smaller/newer company means more guidance, more room for scope creep and more room for error- often they send smaller leads or leads that wouldn’t usually be a great fit to other Google Agencies, purely because it would be better in the long run for the client. 
• If you know a client has a lot of learning curves and that your costs would be unfair to them, don’t take them on as clients! Refer them to other agencies with costs that suit their needs more appropriately. 

[12:30] Ken asks what Coroniavirus looked like for OMG commerce- layoffs, shakeups? 

[12:54] Chris talks about his 10 years of experience in the business, the punches he’s already taken and recovered from over the years and how the fear that Covid brought was nothing like any of those past experiences. 

• He shares that his wife actually asked him what his plan was before anyone else- and he eventually called attention to the virus with his business partners so they could begin planning for the possibility of a global pandemic. 
• They had a nice sum in money market accounts that they quickly pulled out- several months worth of operations gave some comfort. 
• Their team has always had a 100% clear view of their finances, every month employees get a review of their numbers. So they shared all this with their employees, there was 100% transparency. 

[19:30] Chris shares that they wound up being profitable at the end of Q2, which was surprising. Their bonus structure program was based on quarterly numbers, and they made the decision to go ahead and hand out those bonuses at the height of the pandemic. They made that decision and it blew their employees away- which has in turn strengthened their culture and work ethic and grown the business in more ways than just financially. 

[23:00] Ken talks about how great that decision was- stressing that it creates a loyalty that is incredibly valuable on the team side. 

• Metacake takes a Dave Ramsey approach to savings- they try to have a years worth of operations costs saved up for emergencies. 

[23:36] Chris: “It took a pandemic for us to realize that if we’re doing the right things for our clients (and employees) as an agency, it would have to be very dark times in the US for us to lose enough clients to put us out of business.” 

[25:09] Bob asks about how Chris communicated with his team during this early Covid phase. 

[25:23] Chris responds: There were a lot of discussions about what people were and weren’t comfortable with. They kept a skeleton crew of people at the office for as long as they could, but as soon as someone asked if they could work from home, they let everyone know that it was an option. Allowing people the option to feel safe, heard, and cared for resulted in more productivity and actual growth for the company overall. 

[30:00] Ken asks Chris about the necessity of working in an office at all anymore- will they ever go to a full remote model? 

• Chris says that a hybrid model is what they’ll lean into- they’ve realized that their workers can be trusted to work and get things done, even from home. 

[33:00] Ken shares that a hybrid working model is better suited for the reality of life and how humans function- the freedom of blending home life with work life helps to create a healthy balance that results in more productivity and happier individuals. 

[35:00] The Guys chat with Chris about how well this hybrid model has worked for them so far. They speak on the empathy that has been extended in many directions, as we are seeing one another through a more human lens. Not necessarily informality, but a more realistic look at how we all function in our lives. Just being on video calls has made this more applicable than ever. 

[40:00] Ken asks Chris about OMG differentiates themselves in an oversaturated market. 

[41:45] Chris says that by shining a light on your team and your culture, you can create a name for yourself, a reputation that spreads in a positive way about what you’re doing. 

• OMG stands for Online Marketing Giant- at the time they were considered a local agency but wanted to aim higher and bigger, because his partner saw where ecommerce was going. 
• They position themselves to be “experts” in their industry, and do an incredible job of getting themselves in the spotlight on popular platforms in that way- Shopify for example.
• They create content that educates and positions them in that knowledge leadership position as well. 

[46:32] Chris: “I would say to other agencies- if you’ve got a great blog or you have a certain skillset that you can turn into a guide, just get it done, find someone to get that done for you…” Start with someone who’s willing to publish your content- SEO it and put legs underneath it!

[47:30] Bob asks Chris about his plans for the future. 

[47:37] Chris: They’re looking into ways to go full service on Amazon, as they’ve had a couple clients who left out of necessity. 

• Message for smaller agencies: “Be patient. We’ve been at this 10 years and we’re just now getting the levels that we kind of dreamed of seven years ago… if you try to push the envelope or try to skip steps to building a culture, building your processes… you’re never gonna make it.” 

[53:07] Bob thanks Chris for his transparency and honesty, saying that it’s encouraging as an agency owner to hear others that are further along talk about their experience and the hard lessons they’ve learned. 

[55:00] Ken asks Chris where we can find him online- social plugs! Fun fact: If you live chat OMG Commerce, Chris is likely the one that will respond to you! You can also find him on Twitter, Instagram, etc. Check him out!

Summary:

In today’s episode, we’re breaking down the “image” of a giant advertising office with a giant team vs the reality. We hit on the pain points of proving yourself to new clients, managing dynamic work preferences in a changing work landscape, and the deep, long-lasting benefits of a blended team with varied levels of experience. How do you determine which roles require a full-time employee versus an independent contractor? How much access should those contractors have to your clients directly, if any? What are the pros and cons of each? We’re diving into all this and more!

Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: 

1. When hiring, think about the future and the company you want to be. Being forward-thinking with your hiring strategy is key. 
2. Regardless of how much work is being done by a contractor, make sure they are part of your team and sold on your way of doing things and your company culture. 
3. Work smarter. Having a blended team of full-time employees, freelancers, and contracts with other agencies or individuals with awesome skillsets should be the goal.

For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes:

• Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast
• Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders

About The Guys: 

Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: 

• Bob on LinkedIn
• twitter.com/BobHutchins
• instagram.com/bwhutchins
• Bob on Facebook

Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad:

• Brad on LinkedIn
• Anthem Republic
• twitter.com/bradayres
• instagram.com/therealbradayres
• facebook.com/Bradayres

Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: 

• Ken on LinkedIn
• Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team
• Growth Rebel TV
• twitter.com/iamKenOtt
• instagram.com/iamKenOtt
• facebook.com/iamKenOtt

Show Notes:

[2:38] Bob introduces our topic- contractors, team composition, and how you communicate with the outside world about that. 

[3:21] Ken says that although there is an image of a large office with a ton of employees, in reality “there’s always a blend of staff and that’s usually a good thing.”

• “How does it better serve the client and yourself to blend the team?”

[4:16] Brad shares his experience with a team of developers in Romania that he has a strong business relationship with. It began 10 years ago and has only grown stronger since then. Technically they would be considered freelancers but the relationship is so strong, that team feels like an extension of his team here in the States. 

[7:18] Bob asks what is the main reason for maintaining that relationship over the years, when certainly there have been opportunities to bring it closer. Is it availability, skillsets, etc?

[7:26] Brad says it used to be cost, but that has definitely gone up over time. “We’ve had to adjust a lot of their fees and stuff for us, right now I wouldn’t say they’re super competitive to the US… but they know so much information, especially clients that we’ve dealt with for years… there’s a value in that.” 

• He speaks to the positives of waking up and seeing work that has been done overnight- purely because of the time difference. “We haven’t felt the need to hire for any of that internally.” 

[9:25] Bob asks Ken about outsourcing.

[9:28] Ken says that the general rule of thumb for him is that if it’s a core business need, then you really want someone internal, or full time… “especially in niche specialities, which is a lot of what we do.”

• “When you hire, you hire for the future and you gotta hire looking forward… how do I build a team for the company that I want to be?” 

[11:40] Ken continues: Not only is it important to be forward-thinking in this way for your own business, but it is tremendously helpful to express this to your clients as well. 

• Oftentimes, agencies find themselves as the outsourced employee, a larger agency hires them to do something for a client, etc. There has been a stigma attached to that- with clients asking “Why can’t x agency get it done themselves? Are they trying to pull the wool over our eyes?” 

[14:05] Brad shares that a recent client expressed worry about this and asked if a project would be done by his agency or if it would be outsourced- they have had bad experiences in the past in this way. 

[15:00] Brad and Ken talk about how it really shouldn’t make a difference who’s doing the work, so long as the client experience is stable and seamless. For example, if they’ve worked with a specific person to establish the projects scope, etc and then are moved to work with a totally different team for execution, the switch can be jolting and not always a seamless experience. 

• What makes a difference is the integration of those contractors into your team. If they are separate entities completely, how can the client rely on them to be as invested in the project as you are?

[16:51] Ken mentions that the argument could be said for the other side as well, that because contractors are solely responsible for their own business, and compared to an employee that gets paid either way they may invest more in the project and do a better job. 

• The point is, it comes down to the relationship with your people. 
• “Do you have a deep relationship with people working for you, with you, on your team?” If they’re integrated, and deeply invested in the relationship, it really doesn’t matter how they get paid. 

[18:31] Brad says that even those employees that don’t work directly with the main team should get an invite to team events and functions. 

[22:13] Bob speaks about companies like Fivver and Upwork being available to help create entire agencies of freelancers. While this may be a quick, somewhat easy and direct way to get employees quickly, attempting to build a lasting company on this strategy is questionable.

[22:19] Ken adds that this is definitely not a winning strategy.

[22:52] Brad says there is a difference between a contractor that is doing a specific, niche part of a project and will never have face-to-face interaction with the client- versus someone who’s a contractor that has face time with the client and needs to be fully bought into your company culture. 

• If you are hiring a contractor only for a season, but they do have face time with the client, be sure to make it clear to the client what that relationship is so that down the line they don’t feel misled when those same individuals aren’t their primary point of contact. 

[24:46] Ken switches gears to the dynamics of agencies hiring and working closely with other agencies. Do you keep them behind the scenes or bring them into the picture with the client? How do you communicate that relationship? 

[25:46] Brad speaks on how Anthem does this. Typically the partner agency doesn’t lead on strategy. He always makes sure the partner agency comes in with a very defined, strong statement of work and a detailed list of deliverables so the client can see everything very clearly. This helps to prevent scope creep, which tends to be worse as more hands reach into the project. 

• This can be challenging, because you have to renegotiate a few times and redo things.

[27:47] Ken speaks on Metacake’s experience of being hired as an Ecommerce specialist. Typically MC leads strategy on this front, bringing in smaller sub contractors for more niche parts of the larger project.

[31:27] Bob asks for platforms that have helped with finding contractors. He mentions a private Slack group for Nashville- NashDev.

• Speaks to his experience hiring an animator through Fivver. “I was really impressed with the quality that they gave us for the cost. It was unbelievable… we wrote this, the creative and the script, but the production was awesome, and there’s no way I could ever compete with that.” 

[33:56] Brad speaks to the level of healthy competition that those platforms create. Quality of work, speed, cost, etc are all wound into the platform algorithm and help to produce high quality candidates with varied skillsets at competitive prices. 

[36:00] Ken talks about how access to these high-quality creatives allow for more risk taking and new opportunities in projects. The cost is cheaper, the track record and portfolio is right there for you, so why not ask them to try out this project and see where it takes us? 

[39:11] Bob speaks on the quality of people available on UpWork specifically, and how the algorithm seems to have worked out the nuances of how to promote and reward competition between qualified freelancers. 

• The only people that can rate on UpWork are those who have paid someone to do actual work, so there is no room for faking reviews or ratings. 

[41:10] Ken talks about how Metacake uses freelancers from UpWork for smaller animation projects, with the lead designer doing all the art direction and giving feedback. This frees up so much time for other less specialized projects. 

[44:46] Bob: “The value that we bring as agencies to our clients- what we’re really good at- is the strategy, our knowledge, our background. And that always has to guide the freelancers, and that has to kind of govern where we go…”

• He mentions that the way Agency owners talk about freelancers might be the way that our clients talk about us as agencies, so this is a great opportunity to look in the mirror and do some self-reflecting. 

[47:47] Ken talks about finding the balance of when it’s appropriate to use a freelancers versus when bringing someone in-house may be more beneficial.

[50:50] Brad talks about how important it is to integrate those who will have direct contact with your employees- freelancers who come in for projects often should feel a part of the team and well-integrated when they come in on a project. 

[53:00] Brad continues “What I found is really valuable for me, the best freelancers are the ones where when I bring them in, there’s a passion for the client and there’s a passion for the end result that is hard to find and that is worth more than anything.” 

• Freelancers who bring in the busy-ness of their other clients or relationships are never fun to work with or great to rely on. 

[55:41] Ken clarifies: “Full time means I have access full time” and it’s important to define those parameters with your internal as well as external team members. 

Summary:

Last episode we got to hear our guest, Taylor Watt, discuss her experiences working for various agencies. They have ranged from horrible to great. Today we’re talking about what we can practically do (and what we have done) to create a genuinely great company culture. Different personality types and management styles have to be taken into account along the way. Our guest Taylor Watt shares practical tips from firsthand experience that have created a more balanced work/life relationship for her. We’re discussing how personality impacts performance under pressure, how to strengthen working relationships amidst a changing industry landscape, and what it means to have “work hours” and “non-work hours” when everyone is working from home. Keeping spirits and motivations high when everyone is separated is a tricky balancing act- so today we’re bringing some practical advice for agency and business owners alike. 

Top 4 Curtain Pulls in this episode: 

1. Contrary to the social media accounts of every business, “culture” is not one size fits all. It’s not standing desks, snack bars, and company relay races. True culture takes into account the personality of your team and the pedigree that you want to create within your organization. Having healthy, balanced, and committed humans is the only way to success, so you must define that and move with intention towards it.
2. As a leader, you MUST be healthy and have emotional intelligence - this is not an option. When giving feedback, keeping someone’s personality type in mind can be the difference between motivating a positive end result and leaving them frozen in inaction. 
3. “Businesses run by processes, and people run the processes.” So in taking care of your employees, creating systems and processes for them to follow, you are setting the business up for success in the long-term. 
4. Having solid, reliable systems and processes internally and within client projects is extremely important. From a completely practical standpoint, establishing systems and making sure everyone is on the same page helps to increase accountability while providing freedom for self-management. 

About Our Guest: 

Taylor Watt is a Marketing Manager at Metacake, running marketing both strategically for clients as well as Metacake’s internal marketing. She has her hands in many other Metacake projects as well- from writing blogs to content creation to strategy for Metacake’s YouTube channel. She is passionate, kind, funny, and incredible at her job, truly invaluable to the Metacake team- she also has a really cute dog and makes a mean stack of pancakes. 

Resources: 

• Click Happy by Molly Pittman- A guide to a meaningful life and career in the digital era. 

For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes:

• Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast
• Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders

About The Guys: 

Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: 

• Bob on LinkedIn
• twitter.com/BobHutchins
• instagram.com/bwhutchins
• Bob on Facebook

Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad:

• Brad on LinkedIn
• Anthem Republic
• twitter.com/bradayres
• instagram.com/therealbradayres
• facebook.com/Bradayres

Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: 

• Ken on LinkedIn
• Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team
• Growth Rebel TV
• twitter.com/iamKenOtt
• instagram.com/iamKenOtt
• facebook.com/iamKenOtt

Show Notes:

[1:04] Bob gives a brief recap of last week’s episode. “We talked about some of the negative experiences that Taylor had in a larger agency, and then we talked about changing those, and what the culture is that even exists in our own agencies and backgrounds. Today we want to talk about some real practical steps and examples and ways to move forward in a more healthy way.”

[1:35] Brad shares that over the last five years or so, he’s been on a journey to creating more health internally within his business. He often feels like if he misses 15 minutes of productivity during the day, he has to make up for it later with time away from family. It’s a big struggle for him as a solo agency owner. 

• He speaks on not having your day so scheduled that you don’t have time for the human element of ownership. When it really comes down to it, the people in your organization are more important than the organization, so treating them as such is incredibly valuable. 

[3:34] Ken adds that its really a question of “What is the best strategy to creating a successful business?” Which is turns out actually means not burning people out. 

[4:30] Bob asks Taylor for some practical or helpful advice that other agency owners who may be listening could employ.

[5:00] Taylor mentions our last episode and again stresses the importance of processes. “Systems are important, accountability. Making sure that every employee with you is set up for success, because if you do your due diligence there, after that, it’s all on them, whether they’re successful or not.” 

• Taking time to focus on your employee’s physical, spiritual, emotional health if possible. 
• While a 10 or 15 minute conversation with an employee may feel like wasted time, it is really motivating them to work and so it’s not a waste of time, you’ve just invested your time into your employee. 

[6:05] Bob speaks about emotional intelligence and how important it is to know your employee’s personality type, as your feedback may be really encouraging to some but inhibit productivity in others. 

[7:17] Ken speaks on Metacake’s take on personality types. “We all have personality tests or profiles for everybody. That’s been a fun team activity, but it’s been really helpful.” 

• With different personalities, values are different, the ways that you motivate and inspire people changes. 
• Metacake’s team members take both the DISC assessment and the Enneagram test. 
• Dealing with creative personalities may not be intuitive for many agency owners

[10:43] Taylor suggest creating a sort of questionnaire for new employees to fill out- something that asks them about their ideal work environment, their ideal boss, where their motivation comes from. 

[12:27] Brad talks about how as agency owner, it can be difficult to give feedback sometimes because things do come off harsh. He speaks on the difficulty he has with presenting criticism in a softer light, and stresses the importance of measuring your words as an agency owner, as those words can carry a lot more weight than you realize. 

• Brad continues that learning to speak to people in a way that lifts them up and inspires them, encourages them to to better- these are the skills that create truly great teams and relationships. 

[15:00] Taylor shares a book she’s read this year, “Click Happy” by Molly Pittman. “At one point she said, especially in this industry, people value and prioritize people that work overly hard… it’s a quick road to burnout and actually a really unintelligent way to go about your business or your work.”

• The smart way to work is prioritizing the most important things and working on cutting out and delegating the small things. 
• Agency culture in general glamorizes being busy, and glamorizes hard work… “And I realized that later, after reading the book, that yeah I’ve been doing that.” 

[18:00] Ken speaks on managing that culture at Metacake. While you want to encourage employees who do go above and beyond, ultimately creating an environment where employees can have a reasonable expectation of personal life versus business life is the key. 

• While Metacake does rarely require work outside of normal hours, the balancing act is making sure that burnout doesn’t creep up and is managed in a healthy way. Respecting work hours and expectations for those hours is the place to start. 
• The same is communicated to clients- “Our people are not in on Saturday working, we’re not going to be doing anything specific for you during that time, unless it’s an absolute emergency and there have been those times.”

[20:00] Bob relates this concept to working from home during the Covid-19 pandemic. He asks Taylor how that’s worked for her.

[25:07] Taylor says that some people on the team have done well and thrived, while others have really struggled. Personally, she is a people person so it’s been a struggle to maintain energy levels and motivation while working solo.

• She speaks about the spontaneous creative conversations that come up when everyone is in the office together- you can’t really plan for those so that is a definite downside to working from home. 

[31:00] Brad shares that one benefit to working for home for him, although it was struggle to get there, was realizing that by taking a half hour or so to do something other than work, to do something with his hands that maybe was more creatively challenging, helped him show up for meetings and work in a more centered way later on. 

• “I found that I never knew I needed that until I actually did it. And Covid forced me to do that- or at least put me in the position to do that.” 

[32:45] Ken shares his experience with this topic and plans that Metacake has for their future work. 

• Eventually there will be a blend of working from home or working at the office, but I’m still questioning the requirement… “It’s more like we’re in an open workspace… like hey these people will be in on these days so if you want to go hang out with them, you can.” 
• The ultimate goal is getting people to work smarter, not harder. 
• “And also, how do you have a fun, healthy life… having the flexibility to work from anywhere, we’ve had people that have gone and visited their families for weeks and work from there. And that’s great.” 

[33:45] Brad speaks about the importance of systems and being able to trust that ALL of your employees have what they need to follow those systems and do a great job while having the freedom to live their lives as well. 

[35:05] Ken stresses the importance of this as well, because your business needs to be a system. “It can’t just be a freeform thing... Because it’s not scalable that way… it’s not predictable and consistent. And so how do you create what is seemingly very flexible, but actually very systematic.” 

[35:37] Brad: “Business runs by processes and people run the processes.” 

[36:45] Ken shares that managing the mental health side of people’s lives is also important, so Metacake provides an every-other-week one-on-one meeting with both owners to connect and share their working experiences. Creating that human connection on an individual basis is so important to building trust and get real feedback.

[40:06] Ken speaks on the challenges of working with a team who is mostly younger and spread apart and away from their families. “How can we create genuine environments where people actually enjoy their work?” 

• Finding the balance between managing the somewhat chaotic world of parenting while working from home is important. As a business owner, prioritizing connection with co-workers and feeling like a valued member of the team will make the process of doing life with family that much easier and healthier for your employee. 

[42:30] Taylor shares how Metacake has broken days up into working remote as a group and getting lunch at new places together. A fun activity like Top Golf during the day followed by lunch and remotely working- also about a year into her job a manager encouraged her to get her nails done and gave her a gift card. 

• That really went a long way for her! Small gestures make a big difference.

[49:00] Taylor continues- Metacake as a primary team member in charge of planning these sorts of activities, and gets team input as she plans so that everyone is sure to have a good time. Making sure that everybody is interested and engaged together is key!

Summary:

Today’s episode we’re diving into the various experiences of Agency culture with guest Taylor Watt, Marketing Manager at Metacake. After changing lanes from teaching to advertising, she began working for a large agency with a long history and big name. The experience wasn’t pleasant, to say the least, and after a tumultuous learning curve she found her place at Metacake. Today we’re talking about Taylor’s experience of working for two totally different companies doing somewhat similar work, the company culture has impacted her performance and life in general.

Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: 

1. Employees don’t have to feel fear in order to be productive! Give your employees a healthy, stable, respectful and encouraging environment and the results will come back to you tenfold. 
2. Healthy Leadership is evident from the outside, and healthy culture is intentional. Everyone will feel the result- you, your employees, AND your clients!
3. Human relationships should be the priority, with the work being secondary. If your team doesn’t feel respected by leadership at a basic level, feedback won’t be received in a way that is constructive and supportive. 

About Our Guest: 

Taylor Watt is the Marketing Manager at Metacake, running marketing both strategically for clients as well as Metacake’s internal marketing. She has her hands in every Metacake project- from content creation to strategy for Metacake’s YouTube channel. She is passionate, kind, funny, and incredible at her job, truly invaluable to the Metacake team- she also has a really cute dog and makes a mean stack of pancakes. 

For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes:

• Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast
• Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders

About The Guys: 

Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: 

• Bob on LinkedIn
• twitter.com/BobHutchins
• instagram.com/bwhutchins
• Bob on Facebook

Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad:

• Brad on LinkedIn
• Anthem Republic
• twitter.com/bradayres
• instagram.com/therealbradayres
• facebook.com/Bradayres

Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: 

• Ken on LinkedIn
• Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team
• Growth Rebel TV
• twitter.com/iamKenOtt
• instagram.com/iamKenOtt
• facebook.com/iamKenOtt

Show Notes:

[3:15] The Guys introduce Taylor Watt, Marketing Manager at Metacake. 

[3:33] Taylor: “I grew up in Nashville, I went to a little Christian college called Lee University… My roommate was in advertising and I was always so envious that her work seemed exciting and more passionate… so I made the switch last minute and spent a little extra time at Lee and got my advertising degree.”

• She got a job right out of school at a big agency in Nashville and the experience was not great, but eventually moved on and found Metacake. “I’m so grateful I switched majors and that I get to do the work that I do.” 

[5:28] Bob asks: “At the big agency, what was the expectation that was going on?” 

[5:41] Taylor responds: In college, the expectation in advertising is that you’ll get a great job at a big agency, work hard and make big money. Fast paced, working with lots of clients, trendy office setting… those expectations were set and fulfilled by the agency life. 

[6:30] Brad asks: “What was the first sign that made you say ‘Hey I’m not going to like this?’”

[6:37] Taylor: “Well I didin’t really know what to expect, this is the first big girl job that I had, but you’d think that an agency that had been running for decades, that there would be some sort of formal training. There is no formal training.” 

• Taylor shares that there was zero guidance with extremely high expectations from your management. Long hours were expected, so she stayed late every day to try and keep up with the expectations. 
• She never made plans after work because of this, and the year and half of working there was made even more difficult as a result.

[7:45] Brad: “What would happen if you just told them you had to leave? What if you had kids, were they flexible with that?”

[7:57] Taylor: “The people with kids would just leave, but I think it’s like if you’re young and single, it’s kind of expected that you’ll stay. I’m very submissive by nature, so I would just keep my head down.”

[8:20] Taylor that she had no trouble with trying hard, with working hard. The company didn’t provide laptops, so working late at home wasn’t an option. They offered laptops to check out but the technology was old, no cloud saving or easy access. This made the late night mandatory. 

[10:00] Brad talks about it’s common for old agencies that have been around for a while to still be doing things the same way they’ve always done them. There is a culture that this is the way things are and they’re not going to change, are not possible to change, because this is the way it’s been for decades. 

[11:15] Brad asks: “Do you feel like your coworkers had the same experiences?” 

[11:30] Taylor: “Yes I think everyone else had the same experience and concerns… there were five of us all about the same experience level… I think everybody had the mindset that you just had to prove yourself and eventually work your way up.”

• She did confide in management and ask if things were normal, if this was the way things normally happened. Sick days weren’t really days off or sick days, you were still expected to work. 

[12:15] Ken: Talks about how working hard and “paying your dues” isn’t necessarily a bad thing- there is a certain amount of experience necessary to be totally trusted. The process of going through fire is an experience and it’s good for you! But poor leadership through that process is what’s messed up and is more dysfunctional than it is intentionally difficult at certain stages. 

[13:20] Taylor speaks about how a lack of kindness and respect breeds an environment of fear, and that’s not a healthy place for anybody to be. 

[16:00] Brad discusses his experience as a single owner of his business. It’s challenging to not let the stress and fear of everything falling apart get to you and create more trouble than is necessary. He shares that he once had a boss tell him “Brad, it’s just advertising,” and that has stuck with him through times of stress and steep learning curves. 

[18:33] Taylor talks about one pitfall at the big agency she worked for- “It was so big and the team is so big and there were no systems and processes.” When things went wrong she was very hard on herself but in reality she was sort of set up for failure and lack of guidance. 

• She speaks about how different it is at Metacake. There are systems and processes for everything, a project manager that everyone is in touch with and everyone is very transparent about their daily tasks and work. This provides accountability and gives peace of mind so everyone can know that no balls are going to be dropped. 
• Aside from that, “It’s just a pleasant place to be, also it’s an inspiring place to be.” 

[22:30] Brad asks “If you need to take correction from a boss, what is the best way to correct without diminishing your confidence and spirit?”

• The Guys discuss previous experience of negative feedback from a boss, Taylor shares a story about a boss that spoke unkindly to her via the team Slack channel so everybody could see. When she confronted this boss, there was an aggressive response in return and it was very discouraging to her. 

[37:21] Taylor speaks on receiving criticism or feedback- she always goes to the compliment sandwich. Start with the way they are doing something well, then give the criticism with suggestions on how to improve, and follow up with another soft compliment. That way the employee doesn’t feel attacked or discouraged, but lifted up and respected. 

• “I think young people need to learn how to take correction and not let it just destroy them. And you need to humble yourself and that’s how you learn.” 
• She speaks on corrections given by Ken. “It never hurts. It’s always like ‘Oh well I feel kind of dumb, but I’ll go fix it,’” 

[39:25] Brad: “Is that because you know his heart and you know that no matter what he does, he’s for you?”

• It’s really about the intent and the care, the work relationship where you know you’re cared for and supported and that someone has your back. 

[40:38] Bob speaks on how our work does not define us as human beings. This mindset and belief about life creates subtle difference in the way that we interact with each other, and the results of this environment are felt immediately 

[42:00] The Guys talk about how the biggest pitfall for many agencies is the breakdown in the team relationship- in doing the work, it can be easy to forget the human element, which results in an environment of fear and high pressure with little reward.

Summary:

Having an awesome project management system in place is just the beginning- there also have to be processes in place to track every bit of work that your company is doing for it’s clients. You can have all the tools you want, but if no one uses them or people HATE to use them, they won’t ultimately work. Creating an incredible product for your clients that is also profitable for your business means knowing who’s doing what work, how long they’re taking, and staying in a budget. What good is it knowing that a project took 30 extra hours if you don’t find out until 3 weeks later? Today’s we share our thoughts on the systems and processes that we use to ensure our own profitability. 

Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: 

1. Ultimately, tracking hours isn’t about holding people accountable for every moment of their day, but being able to have a realistic view of project health- which means a more accurate picture of your REAL profitability. 
2. Providing accurate estimates for your clients is an uphill battle, with scope creep being the biggest challenge. Use data to scope and productize your service offerings. 
3. Pro Tip: Don’t start working on a project until you have everything you need from a client! Work towards acquiring the information you need as early in the project as possible. Consider building packages that have this discovery time built into the services you’re offering. 

Resources Mentioned: 

• Basecamp 3: Project Management software used by Metacake for every client- includes time tracking option for each task on a project. You can try it free for 30 days!
• Asana: Project Management software that allows you to track, manage, and connect projects across multiple teams. 
• Accelo: Project Management software that allows you to gain visibility across your client database, improve processes and spend more time on your expertise. 

For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes:

• Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast
• Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders

About The Guys: 

Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: 

• Bob on LinkedIn
• twitter.com/BobHutchins
• instagram.com/bwhutchins
• Bob on Facebook

Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad:

• Brad on LinkedIn
• Anthem Republic
• twitter.com/bradayres
• instagram.com/therealbradayres
• facebook.com/Bradayres

Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: 

• Ken on LinkedIn
• Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team
• Growth Rebel TV
• twitter.com/iamKenOtt
• instagram.com/iamKenOtt
• facebook.com/iamKenOtt

Show Notes:

[1:59] Bob introduces this week’s episode. We’re continuing to talk about profitability, because as an agency owner it’s SO important know how you’re making money. 

[2:45] Ken talks about how difficult it is to manage profitability. 

• Last episode we talked about how the tendency is to have a $100K per head revenue expectation- how do you grow that? Let’s talk about what we’ve done to attack that problem and create solutions for ourselves. 

[4:04] Brad speaks about a challenge he’s experienced- estimates are based on the hours that an employee spends on a project, and that can be difficult to track. 

• Ken responds that the idea of being able to track every minute of someone’s day is an illusion
• Bob adds that it gets more and more difficult as a team grows

[5:33] Brad shares about his experience in tracking billable hours back before the internet took over everything- time sheets were a pain in the butt but then there was new software that got rid of timesheets. Employees hated this because it resulted in micromanagement, and there was huge pushback.

• As time has gone on, he realized that “it’s more important to be able to estimate projects to be able to allow enough padding so that you can spend a little extra time and your team can spend extra time when it’s necessary…” Be aware that 90% of the time, you’ll probably go over budget and take that into account with estimates. 

[10:03] Bob asks if Brad has a formula for this- Brad says he always adds between 10 and 30% onto a project to allow for extra work. 

• They break projects down by resources it will take, then break the hours down from each resource… all expenses are taken into account. This is a top-down method of estimating. 
• Then he also looks at it from a bottom-up perspective. How long will the project be, how many people will be on the account, how much of their time will be spent? 

[11:39] Brad: “The biggest challenge that we have is not estimating, but scope creep… it’s allowing the client to have flexibility but at the same time making sure that projects don’t go on for too long…” 

[14:50] Ken stresses the importance of using technology or software that people will actually use and that is user-friendly. The more psychological barriers a person has about using a specific software, the less accurate your numbers are going to be. 

[15:40] Brad talks about how often hours aren’t tracked in real time, which can lead to a real discontinuity in billing clients. In the past, when time cards were the most popular way to track hours, this was an enormous problem that agencies often wouldn’t find out about until the project was over. 

• The method of billing the client adds further complexity to the process of tracking hours- the billing method and payment schedule has to be conducive to realistically tracking work that is being done. 

[17:30] Ken: “Billing that way doesn’t work… the worst of both worlds for both sides, right? You don’t know as an agency what your income is going to be, and as a client you can’t project what your bill’s going to be. And so it’s a hard expectation to manage.” 

[19:33] Ken shares that Metacke uses Basecamp3 to track and manage projects. It has a built-in timer that you activate, then make notes of how you used that time and log those hours, and you’re done. 

• This has created huge value for Metacake, as now they can track hours in real time. Knowing that you went 5 hours over on a project doesn’t matter if you find out 2 weeks later. But knowing right when it’s happening allows you to manage things much more easily. 
• Of course, the truth is that time tracking is a huge beast. It’s subject to human error, but we can do our best to make it easier and more accurate.

[21:55] Bob talks about how this accurate information feeds into having more open dialogues with your clients- the client can be very clear on what the hours are and what they’re paying for. 

[22:55] Brad shares that his company has run into problems before where they have no real scope for a project but the client just wants a quote- it’s hard to give a quote when just figuring out the scope itself will cost the client $10K to begin with. 

• Upfront discovery costs and a clear depiction of what they will include is helpful to the client who may not understand scope creep. 
• Anthem uses Asana to track hours, which doesn’t include a timer but does allow you to track projects on a smaller, real time scale. It increases communication about progress so that anyone can see the milestones at a glance, which allows for a more accurate view of project scope. 

[26:40] Bob adds that oftentimes, personality type impacts how people keep track of hours. Workflow, communication habits, waves of inspiration, etc all influence how someone may track their productivity. 

[29:47] Brad speaks about the cost of the sale- “We probably spend about 10% of our profit on each project on just getting the sale. Especially if it’s a brand new client.” 

[31:33] Bob talks about a template or a formula to get proposals turned around more quickly. Certain things are going to be the same for every proposal. 

[32:27] Ken shares that Metacake has different “building blocks” for every project or service offering, that are put together with other basic blocks to create an estimate. 

[35:25] Brad talks about proposal templates, or ways to build out proposals more quickly. 

[36:24] Ken asks what the most profitable services that The Guys have done over the years, and which are traditionally the ones that tend to lose money or be lower in profitability or harder to maintain/manage. 

[36:45] Brad: Technology has always been scary, because developing new technology leaves so much room for unexpected things to come up. 

[37:53] Bob: Managing social media is usually pretty straightforward and can be profitable- the old standby being paid media. 

[39:17] Brad adds that it is also incredibly difficult to predict profitability when you rely on the client for a lot of information- for example if you’re designing a website for a client it can take 3-6 months depending on the size of the site and the client. And that can be like pulling teeth, waiting for them to give you what you need. 

[41:00] Bob speaks about Metacake and how Ken’s partner Bob does a great job of keeping clients in line and being a real stickler for details on the front end.

• “You guys will not start a project until you have all the content in hand… and then you will fight with the client and say hey we really don’t want to start because this affects the design… so until we have all the content I’m not sure.” 

[42:49] Bob shares the software used by a client he’s working with now, a tool called Accelo that is a time management/ project management/ team management tool that works well for them. 

Summary:

Maintaining a steady profit margin is the key to a healthy, stable business. It’s how you survive in downturns, how you invest in innovation, how you market, and more. The classic model in the agency world revolved around tracking billable hours and racing towards commodification at every turn- today we are opening up about creating profit without losing sight of the human component of your business. 

Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: 

1. Know your numbers! If you don’t have an accurate view of your current profit margin, you’ll never be able to create lasting changes that result in increased profit. 
2. “You want to shoot for four times what you pay somebody in revenue… you want to be north of 23% profit margin shooting for 30% net profit margin in your business” as a baseline for success. 
3. Employees that are aware of and bring value to the table are employees that will increase the value of your business in return- steer clear of creating human commodities out of your employees. “The people run the processes, but the processes run your business.” 

For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes:

• Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast
• Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders

About The Guys: 

Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: 

• Bob on LinkedIn
• twitter.com/BobHutchins
• instagram.com/bwhutchins
• Bob on Facebook

Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad:

• Brad on LinkedIn
• Anthem Republic
• twitter.com/bradayres
• instagram.com/therealbradayres
• facebook.com/Bradayres

Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: 

• Ken on LinkedIn
• Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team
• Growth Rebel TV
• twitter.com/iamKenOtt
• instagram.com/iamKenOtt
• facebook.com/iamKenOtt

Show Notes:

[0:30] The Guys start the episode talking about a passion of Brad’s- motorcycles. The conversion leads to Brad sharing a new toy of his, the new 2020 iPad Pro, with awesome keyboard features that may finally be an ipad that can double as a laptop.

[6:29] Bob segues the conversation towards profitability- “Speaking of Brad’s new toys, all the profit that he’s making his agency… we’re going to talk about profitability today.” 

• There is an unknown rule of amount of revenue per head as far as your team.

[7:08] Ken: “Agency aside, you want to shoot for four times what you pay somebody in revenue… you kind of want to be north of 23% profit margin shooting for 30% net profit margin in your business.” 

• This includes budget for innovation and other things that grow and stabilize your company. 
• Marketing is a cost-heavy industry, and it can be difficult to ever have room for that if you don’t have a large enough profit margin.
• There are a lot of different ways to increase profitability, and sharing those is the subject of this week’s episode.

[9:45] Brad: “I look at my business as one of the many things in my life that is going to generate revenue… I look at my business as a way to make revenue that I can take and invest in other areas that don’t take as much labor to make 10%.” 

[12:15] Brad continues: “... it’s all about human resources at the end of the day… in the end it’s the human resources that make that [business] happen.” 

• Roughly 60% of employee’s time is actually billable, it’s very unlikely that you’ll find someone working 100% of their hours

[16:00] Ken shares about growth in some agencies he’s spoken with- the growth in linear over time, with the same amount of work being done for the same ratio of money.

• Truly a profit strategy depends on the end goal, are you creating a profitable company that will feed your stability and growth of employees or something to sell quickly and is prone for growth in the eyes of someone else.

[18:45] Brad discusses the importance of building value into your company outside of just the clients you work with- clients come and go, one giant client leaving can result in 50% or more of revenue dropping off. How can you maintain that profitability even through this? VALUE. 

[21:35] Ken: Speaking to the holistic view that Brad talks about- business model isn’t just about that business, truly a holistic part of his whole life plan.

• “The less you rely on the thing, the more healthy your relationship with that thing can be.” This applies to life in general, but is also a great way to think about your business. Life model is separate from your business model, but the more stable and healthy each of those relationships are, the less reliant you become on the other. 

[24:29] Bob: Talks about the struggle of business owners with walking the fine line between people as commodities inside of your business. Often as you scale, employees become more commodities than people.

[25:56] Ken rejects that model of ownership- “If your business is based on humans, and those humans are commoditized.... Then as you go up and down, you’re inevitably not going to be able to retain or attract the thing that you actually sell.... Which is the humans.” 

[27:17] Ken continues: “Our company… I call it a hybrid agency because there’s agency services that we do but ultimately I’m trying to build a brand that has equity and that has multiple products, one being a service that we give, others being other products… I see our business as a distributor of experience and knowledge.” 

• His goals in building a team is brick by brick, building up a base without losses and time wasted in retraining people. 

[32:30] Brad shares advice for any employee out there listening- make sure you are making the company money and providing value for your presence. If you feel that you could leave and be replaced by someone in 2 weeks without a hiccup, you know you haven’t created any real value for your boss or the team.

[39:50] Bob speaks about how often, agencies are selling knowledge more than creativity or execution. 

[41:21] Bob asks: “Is there a model that you guys follow? How do you track profitability? What are the basics that someone listening can understand?”
[42:13] Ken: Before you can figure out how to adjust your employees or long-term plans, you need to know where you’re at right now. Know how much time you put into something, and make sure you’re paying yourself to do that. 

• For many agencies, there is an expansion and contracting that can be scary if you don’t know where it’s coming from or how to track it. 
• 30% net profit at the end of the day should be baseline, and know how much you’re making per employee. Are they bringing in that revenue? 

[44:34] Brad: Anthem does a few estimates, for the client yes but also for the sake of the team. There is a statement of work that is held to the price to allow for scope creep

• One model is bottom up, looking at cost but also monthly hours per employee and tracking their work closely… “I do that just to give some peace of mind… that we’re going to be profitable on a project.” 

[47:00] The Guys speak about tracking hours and how it can impact the psychology of employees to constantly track their own productivity. Next episode will cover this topic!