It Gets Late Early: Ageism in the Workplace – Details, episodes & analysis

In this last episode of the year, I reflect on what I’ve learned in 1.5 years of podcasting about ageism in the workplace. Spoiler alert: it’s a big deal for all of us, whether you’re fresh out of school or deep into your career, so let’s roll!

Did you know having a positive mindset about aging can add 7.5 years to your life? That’s more than quitting smoking or exercising! Mind-blowing, right? But thanks to the media and the beauty industry, stereotypes about aging make it harder for everyone to feel good about getting older.

Surveys from Resume Now and AARP show that up to 90% of workers face age discrimination. And it’s not just older folks—“reverse ageism” hits younger workers too. Meanwhile, multigenerational workplaces aren’t just nice to have; they’re productivity powerhouses, boosting team performance by 20%.

The financial hit? Brace yourself—ageism costs the U.S. economy $850 billion a year! On top of that, issues like menopause in the workplace are costing companies millions in lost productivity. 

But there’s reason to hope! Listeners have shared some inspiring success stories about landing jobs through their networks. Plus, collective action is making waves—like holding companies accountable for ageist practices (looking at you, Indeed). Change is happening, folks, and I’m here for it.

So buckle up - this episode is going to change the way you think and get you geared up and revved up for what’s next!

Join the Event with AARP on December 9, 2024:

-Send an email to [email protected] to reserve your seat.

Sign up for One-on-One Coaching:

-Send an email to [email protected] or a message at  https://www.itgetslateearly.com/collaborate. 

Maureen LinkedIn: @maureenwclough - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maureenwclough/

Resources Mentioned in the Episode:

-Generations Report by Protiviti and Dr. Daniel Jolles - https://www.protiviti.com/sites/default/files/2024-01/lse-generations-survey-report.pdf 

-EEOC Report On Diversity In The Tech Workforce - https://www.eeoc.gov/special-report/high-tech-low-inclusion-diversity-high-tech-workforce-and-sector-2014-2022 

-Women in Leadership Face Ageism at Every Age - https://hbr.org/2023/06/women-in-leadership-face-ageism-at-every-age 

-McKinsey & Company’s Report On Women In The Workplace  - https://www.flipsnack.com/78C9ACFF8D6/women-in-the-workplace-2024/full-view.html 

-Resume Now Survey on Ageism -

Ever feel like you're trying to navigate a corporate obstacle course while juggling flaming torches and keeping your cool? Like you're supposed to be "authentic" but also "professional," vulnerable but not too vulnerable? Well, today we're diving into the workplace circus with Hanan Harb Sahourieh, the brilliant mind behind Everybody Be Cool - a book that's basically your survival guide to the modern workplace.

Here's what's fascinating about Hanan: after getting laid off (yeah, we've all been there or feared being there), instead of diving into the usual "how to climb the corporate ladder" stuff, she wrote the book she wished she'd had - one for the regular folks trying to figure out how to show up as themselves. And this isn't your typical "lean in" narrative. This is real talk about what happens when five generations of workers try to coexist without driving each other crazy.

We get into some juicy territory, like what Hanan calls "spiritual business moments" (trust me, it's not what you think), and why being vulnerable at work isn't always the magic solution Brené Brown might have led us to believe. Speaking of which, wait until you hear Hanan's take on psychological safety - spoiler alert: your role might have more to do with it than your personality.

So, if you're tired of workplace advice that feels like it was written by AI (no offense to our robot friends), and you're ready for some real talk about power, authenticity, and staying human in the corporate jungle, this episode is for you. Don't worry, we'll throw in some cringe-worthy corporate culture stories too - because sometimes you just need to know you're not alone in this wild ride we call work life.

“We have power and control over how we show up, how we interact with our neighbors, our community, our family, and the people we work with. That's where we have the power to be who we want to be and be the change that we want to see.” 

~ Hanan Harb Sahourieh 

In This Episode:

-Why personal power matters in the workplace

-How to build a personal brand and its benefits

-The inspiration behind Hanan’s book Everybody Be Cool

-How to navigate generational differences in the workplace

-Why power skills are essential in today’s workplace

-Challenges of being vulnerable in the workplace

-How independent publishing empowers creators

-The value of a coaching culture in the workplace

-How to build resilience and adaptability in the rising gig economy

And much more!

Resource Mentioned in the Episode:

-Hanan’s book, Everybody Be Cool: https://a.co/d/h7SzNjE 

Connect with Hanan Harb Sahourieh:

-Website: https://www.everybody-be-cool.com/   

-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hananharb

Connect with Maureen Clough:

-Instagram: @itgetslateearly - https://www.instagram.com/itgetslateearly/

-YouTube: @itgetslateearly -

We're bringing back some comic relief of the highest order by republishing one of the all-time most downloaded episodes of It Gets Late Early, featuring genius comedian Ross Pomerantz, aka Corporate Bro (or just Corp).

If you’re newer here, you probably haven’t heard Ross’s take on getting older in general or in the ageist tech industry…and trust me, you’re gonna wanna fix that. Like, now.

If you don’t know Ross, his persona of Corporate Bro is pretty much legendary in the tech world. After spending a few years in the tech sales trenches, he has been putting out comedic videos satirizing the world of sales and tech and has amassed a massive social media following. He currently partners with brands as huge as Salesforce and DocuSign, delivers keynotes, and advises tech companies.

Since we recorded this episode, Ross has also become a podcaster. He puts out the absolutely hilarious show “Demoted” alongside co-host comedian Corporate Natalie. Definitely check it out - it’s one of my favorites.

If you aren’t into profanity (or are listening around kids), don’t enjoy sarcasm or dark humor, or are easily offended, fair warning: this episode is NOT for you, and we’ll catch you next time.

So, thanks for letting me hit the easy button for a little summer break while also delivering to you an absolute gem of an episode - either for the first time or for another round.

"I do think leadership and experience are often underappreciated. It can be a huge difference-maker in tech in motivating people and giving them perspective and wise words, whatever it may be, but also even catharsis and therapy to the younger folks."

- Ross Pomerantz

In This Episode:

-Why Ross thinks tech companies are youth-dominated

-Where will Corporate Bro be in ten years? Hint: maybe drop the “Bro”

-How Ross’s humor plays differently with Gen Z vs. older people

-Ross’s feelings about facing ageism - and his first “ism”  

-How Ross works well with both younger and older people alike

-Ross’s experience in producing "Sales are Dope" (S.A.D.)

-Ross’s true feelings on influencers and TikTok

-What Taylor Swift and Ross have in common

-How Ross feels about getting older

-Where Ross thinks older employees bring value

-The grind of content creation

And much more!

Resources:

-Sales are Dope (S.A.D.) Series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3NoHBNSs00Y7I82f6h_6KyWM3b9pjmmQ

-Gavin DeGraw clip mentioned: https://www.tiktok.com/@corporate.bro/video/7196785042696457518

Connect with Ross Pomerantz:

-Website: https://corporatebro.com/

-Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/demoted/id1725899994 

-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/corporatebro/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/corporate.bro/

-TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@corporate.bro

-Threads -

The fantastic Jen Saarbach and Kristen Kelly from “The Wall Street Skinny” podcast join me today for a candid and super fun crossover episode on the challenges women face breaking into and growing their careers in the male-dominated industries of Tech and Finance.

Jen and Kristen tell us how they started “The Wall Street Skinny” to democratize access to the world of high finance via their incredible podcast and lighthearted but value-packed social media posts. Turns out there’s more to the industry than we see in the movie The Wolf of Wall Street with Leo DiCaprio and Margot Robbie! Who knew?!

We all shared some of our career horror stories, including Jen’s (which she turned into a hilarious viral video) about how being a few minutes late to an interview can completely derail your shot at a big job. They also share that Wall Street is actually accessible to…English majors?!

But it's not just the hurdles of getting your foot in the door. Once you're in, we all face ageism (either levied against the young or the old, depending on the industry - we’ll reveal what we mean here!) and sexism through microaggressions, lack of mentorship opportunities, and assumptions. We dive into these realities and highlight the importance of age diversity in both industries.

We also discuss AI’s double-edged sword—its potential to both automate away jobs and also revolutionize fields like gene editing.

So whether you're well-established in your career or just getting started, our chat has you covered. Did I mention we had a lot of fun? Join us for our wide-ranging but impactful conversation.

"We have structured society so differently than it was historically so that you aren't hitting the same milestones. You aren't necessarily graduating from college at 22, going to business school at 25, getting married at 30, having kids by 35, retiring at 65. Those milestones have all shifted and are no longer fixed points." 

- Jen Saarbach

In This Episode:

-Challenges and opportunities for women in finance

-Ageism in the tech industry

-Women representation and role models in finance and tech

-The challenges of starting a career in the finance industry

-The apprenticeship model in finance and its impact on career paths

-Challenges of entering finance later in life

-The importance of age diversity in finance and tech

-The role of venture capitalists in guiding founders

-The impact of AI on career paths

And much more!

Learn Finance From The Wall Street Skinny:

-Website: https://www.thewallstreetskinny.com/

-Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-wall-street-skinny/id1680425507 

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thewallstreetskinny/ 

-TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thewallstreetskinny 

Connect with Jen Saarbach:

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jennifersaarbach/ 

-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-saarbach-realtor 

Connect with Kristen...

Ever wonder what it takes to build and sell a tech company for millions without venture capital? Well, we've got the inside story straight from the source!

Today I'm chatting with Sharon Gillenwater, a trailblazing entrepreneur who did just that - she built and sold her tech company (Boardroom Insiders) for a cool $25 million, all without relying on VC funding! She is the author of Scaling with Soul, which chronicles how she built, scaled, and sold her company.

Sharon's not your typical tech founder - in fact, she didn't even have a technical background when she started her company. But she proved that you don't need to be a coder to succeed in the startup world. 

Sharon shares her unconventional entrepreneurial journey, the challenges she faced as a woman in tech, and the surprising advantage of being an "older" entrepreneur.

We'll also get the scoop on Sharon's viral TikTok fame, the truth about VC funding (hint: you don't always need it!), and her mission to democratize entrepreneurship and create more respectful workplaces.

Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or just curious about the wild world of tech startups, you don't want to miss this episode. Sharon's story is proof that you can absolutely make it big in this industry, even if you don't fit the mold, so tune in!

.

"You don't have to be a Mark Zuckerberg to be an entrepreneur. Or a Sarah Blakely. You can be a Sharon Gillenwater and make all your retirement money and have a great retirement. And you don't have to take venture capital." 

- Sharon Gillenwater

In This Episode:

-How Sharon built and sold a $25m tech company without venture capital

-How to overcome self-doubt and insecurity as an entrepreneur

-Women’s experience in entrepreneurship in the 80s

-The downside of venture capital funding for founders

-How to identify business opportunities

-Employee care strategies and the importance of a positive work culture

-Employment challenges in the tech industry

-Sharon's TikTok fame and content creation journey

-Navigating business exits after venture capital funding

And much more!

Resources:

-Scaling With Soul: How I Built & Sold a $25 Million Tech Company Without Being an A**hole - https://www.amazon.com/Scaling-Soul-Million-Company-Without/dp/1964377013 

Connect with Sharon Gillenwater:

-Website: https://www.sharonkgillenwater.com/ 

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sharonkgillenwater/

-TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sharonkgillenwater 

-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharonkgillenwater/

Connect with Maureen Clough:

-Instagram: @itgetslateearly - https://www.instagram.com/itgetslateearly/

-YouTube: @itgetslateearly -

In a recent study by Fortune, one in five Gen Z’s reported not having spoken to anyone over 50 in the workplace in the last year, while 40% of people over 55 said they hadn't talked to a Gen Z. How did we get here?

How do we bridge this generational divide? Are the five generations at work a challenge to overcome, or are they an overlooked source of strength? 

Today I host the brilliant Professor Megan Gerhardt, founder and author of Gentelligence. Megan challenges the lazy stereotypes that pit generations against each other. She advocates for understanding our differences as an opportunity for mutual growth and innovation. 

One concept that really resonated was Megan's vision for "mutual mentoring" – an approach that replaces traditional top-down mentorship with a reciprocal exchange of knowledge and perspectives. 

So, whether you're a tech titan grappling with a multi-generational workforce or simply seeking to bridge the gap with colleagues from different age groups, this conversation is for you. 

Tune in to learn how you can foster smarter intergenerational conversations to transform your workplace into an environment where every generation feels valued and empowered.

“I believe generations matter, but they certainly are not everything. They are the beginning of the conversation to me, not the end of the conversation.” 

- Megan Gerhardt

In This Episode:

-An introduction to the Gentelligence concept

-The importance of age in the DE&I conversations

-Intergenerational warfare and generational labels

-Practical tools for smarter intergenerational conversations

-How to leverage generational norms

-The impact of remote work on workplace engagement and identity

-How to build intergenerational friendships

-Why mutual mentorship is beneficial

And much more.

Resources: 

-Purchase Professor Megan's book “Gentelligence”: https://a.co/d/ckOhax9 

-Join Gentelligence Academy: https://gentelligenceacademy.com/ 

Connect with Professor Megan Gerhardt:

-Website: https://profgerhardt.com/

-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/megangerhardt

Connect with Maureen Clough:

-Instagram: @itgetslateearly - https://www.instagram.com/itgetslateearly/

-YouTube: @itgetslateearly - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGrHwk-y7ERaq7bCSjZYf1A?sub_confirmation=1

-Website: itgetslateearly.com - https://www.itgetslateearly.com/

-LinkedIn: @maureenwclough -

In our hustle-obsessed society, the concept of "work-life balance" has become a twisted, unattainable ideal. From the dawn of our careers, we're fed narratives that glorify overachievement and self-sacrifice for the corporate grind.

But what if we've been sold a lie? What if the real keys to fulfillment lie in dismantling those deeply ingrained notions?

My guest today is Danielle Roberts, the bold anti-career coach. Danielle was well on her way to "having it all" - the prestigious job, the six-figure salary, the big promotion. But at what cost? She found herself drained, unfulfilled, and questioning the very purpose of her relentless grind. 

From debunking the "lazy millennial" myths to questioning if a four-day workweek goes far enough, we explore the systemic issues warping our relationship to work. Danielle shares candid insights on why the perpetual grind robs us of joy and how to start uncoupling your identity from your job title.

Whether you're questioning your own work-life balance, feeling the creep of burnout, or simply craving more purpose beyond the 9-to-5 grind, this conversation is a must-listen. Tune in as we dive into practical strategies for finding joy and fulfillment outside of your career.

“We talk about work-life balance as if work is something to be balanced against life, but we need it (work) to be coherent with life.” 

- Danielle Roberts

In This Episode:

-Danielle’s journey from corporate to anti-career coaching

-Why people are disenchanted with corporate employment

-The tech industry's broken promises, layoffs, and lies

-Navigating career uncertainty and embracing self-worth

-Redefining success and getting comfortable with "failure"

-A holistic approach to career coaching

-Generational differences in the workplace

-Quiet quitting, lazy girl jobs, and a four-day workweek

And much more.

Resources: 

-Buy “Already Enough: A Path to Self-Acceptance” by Lisa Olivera: https://amzn.eu/d/bJIt4PG  

Connect with Danielle Roberts:

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/imdanielleroberts/

-Website: https://danielleroberts.co/

Connect with Maureen Clough:

-Instagram: @itgetslateearly - https://www.instagram.com/itgetslateearly/

-YouTube: @itgetslateearly - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGrHwk-y7ERaq7bCSjZYf1A?sub_confirmation=1

-Website: itgetslateearly.com - https://www.itgetslateearly.com/

-LinkedIn: @maureenwclough - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maureenwclough/

-Facebook:

In our fast-paced, career-driven world, it's all too easy for friendships to take a backseat. But for many men, that dwindling social circle isn't just an occasional inconvenience - it's a harsh reality made worse by societal pressures and masculine stereotypes. 

My guest today is Max Dickins, speaker, comedian, and author of Billy No-Mates: How I Realised Men Have a Friendship Problem.

What’s his story? As Max was preparing to propose to his girlfriend, he had a startling realization - his circle of close male friends had dwindled to nearly nothing. He had no best man! Basically it was the real life version of the Paul Rudd and Jason Segal movie “I Love You, Man!” This experience sparked an exploration into the challenges men face in maintaining platonic bonds, especially as they get older.

From the isolating impacts of demanding work lives to the discomfort many men feel around vulnerability and emotional intimacy, we dive deep into the root causes of male loneliness and its impact on men’s health.  

But it's not all doom and gloom! Max offers practical strategies for breaking the cycle, such as being proactive in your social life, understanding your career's impact on relationships, and the concept of "repotting" friendships to build deeper connections.

Whether you're a guy struggling to keep your mates close or a partner wondering how to support the male relationships in your life, this episode is a must-listen, so tune in now!

"If we ran our social life with the same diligence, creativity, and structure that we ran our business life, everyone would have amazing social lives."

- Max Dickins

In This Episode:

-The story behind Max’s book “Billy No-Mates.”

-Why do men struggle to make and maintain friendships as they age?

-The impact of work on male friendships

-Why do men have more female friends than male friends?

-Tips on how to make new friends easily as a man

-How to build strong male friendships at work

-How women can support their partners in building their social circles

And much more.

Purchase Max Dickins’ Book:

-Waterstones: https://www.waterstones.com/book/we-need-to-talk-to-kevin/max-dickins/9781838853518 

-Amazon: https://a.co/d/01zG7Dr

Connect with Max Dickins:

-LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/max-dickins-improv 

-Website: https://www.maxdickins.com/

-Instagram: http://instagram.com/maxdickinswrites

Connect with Maureen Clough:

-Instagram: @itgetslateearly - https://www.instagram.com/itgetslateearly/

-YouTube: @itgetslateearly -

Ever wondered what it's like to work at Amazon? I mean, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere, just like New York, right? It feels like after you’ve done time at Amazon, your meal ticket is punched, and you’ll have a cascade of job offers and great opportunities thereafter. But would you give your soul in exchange for a career at Amazon?

In this episode, I have Kristi Coulter, a brilliant author who wrote the book Exit Interview. She's also a writing professor and an editorial coach, so she helps people get their books into the world.

Exit Interview is about Kristi's experience of 12 years at Amazon corporate. It is an incisive, hilarious book, and as a woman reading it, I felt it was so needed in the literary world. We needed someone to voice what was happening on the inside in corporate employment. 

We get into the sexism and double standards she faced, her tumultuous attempts to advance up the Amazon career ladder, her relationship with ambition, her sobriety journey, and how she has both learned - and proven - that it is never too late to change in life. She also recounts how Amazon - and specifically, Jeff Bezos - responded to the famous New York Times expose of Amazon by Jodi Kantor (who also broke the Harvey Weinstein abuse scandal). You definitely don’t want to miss that story.

And by the way, the brutal culture Kristi experienced at work is not unique to Amazon, but is something people from many in tech can relate to, so I found it cathartic to read.

So, if you’re wondering, "Oh, Amazon, what's it like there?" join us as we peel back the mystique and aura of Amazon. Don’t worry, we’ll get some solid and entertaining Jeff Bezos anecdotes up in there.

"I know there's this myth that people who make that kind of money aren't really working. But I could tell you, at Amazon, those people were working insanely hard. Like so hard that I would think, ‘you know, you're worth tens of millions of dollars, why are you answering emails on Sunday night? … Why don't you go on more vacations?’"

- Kristi Coulter

In This Episode:

-Why Kristi wrote her book 

-Climbing the corporate ladder at Amazon

-What was it like getting a job at Amazon as a 36-year-old woman?

-How do you react to a weird situation in the workplace?

-Living and working in a place where "drinking" is part of the culture

-Kristi's leadership example at a luxury retreat 

-One more humorous interlude 

-The New York Times article and the response from Jeff Bezos

-Does Jeff Bezos actually care about diversity and equity?

And much more.

Resources:

-Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career by Kristi Coulter - https://www.amazon.com/Exit-Interview-Death-Ambitious-Career/dp/0374600902

-Inside Amazon: Wrestling Big Ideas in a Bruising Workplace - https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html

-Jeff Bezos Responds To 'New York Times' Report On Amazon's Workplace -

Becoming a manager through a promotion or receiving a job offer is a rewarding accomplishment for an employee. While these opportunities can prove exciting for both first-time and long-time managers, not everyone is innately gifted with the skills it takes to be a good manager. Ask just about anyone, and they’ll tell you about that bad boss (or 7) they’ve had across their corporate careers.

In today's episode, the relatable and sharp Ashley Herd of Manager Method and HR Besties and I explore what it means to be a manager and how new managers can adapt to their leadership positions. We discuss common workplace challenges managers face and tips on navigating those challenges.  

We also touch on this interesting concept called ikigai, which is the convergence of four areas of life: what you love, what you're good at, what the world needs, and what you can be paid for.

Ashley worked as a lawyer in BigLaw (Ogletree Deakins) and leading companies (including McKinsey and Yum! Brands). She also served as General Counsel and Head of HR for the nation’s largest luxury media company (Modern Luxury). 

Ashley is a LinkedIn Learning instructor on people management and co-hosts the HR Besties podcast (a Top 10 Business Podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify - and one of my personal favorites). She has been featured by CNN, Financial Times, HR Brew, and BuzzFeed. Ashley is an expert in providing a crucial skill set that will benefit your organization and redefine people leadership.

"I remember my husband's great-aunt, Norma, saying to me, "It's so good to have friendships of different generations." At that time, I didn't appreciate it. I didn't appreciate it until I was older, and I now have those different ones on different sides."

- Ashley Herd

In This Episode:

-Why Ashley created the Manager Method

-Who is this "Luke" that appears in Ashley's videos?

-How to communicate layoffs with humanity

-The legal consequences of passing on layoff decisions to managers

-Is aiming for promotion the only path to staying employed?

-How to manage intergenerational workforce politics

-Encouraging workplace diversity and mentoring across generations

-How the HR Besties podcast came about

And much more.

Resources:

-Radical Candor by Kim Scott - https://kimmalonescott.com/radical-candor

Connect with Ashley Herd:

-Website: https://www.managermethod.com/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/managermethod/

-HR Besties Podcast: https://www.hrbesties.com/

-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyherd/

Connect with Maureen Clough:

-Instagram: @itgetslateearly - https://www.instagram.com/itgetslateearly/

-YouTube: @itgetslateearly -