How I Hire - the podcast where we talk with senior GTM leaders about how they find, vet, attract and grow new talent. Hosted by the team at Whispered, each episode uncovers the unwritten playbook for executive hiring that drives exponential growth.
Site
RSS
Apple
Classements récents
Dernières positions dans les classements Apple Podcasts et Spotify.
Liens partagés entre épisodes et podcasts
Liens présents dans les descriptions d'épisodes et autres podcasts les utilisant également.
How I Hire with Manny Medina - Co-Founder & CEO @ Paid
Épisode 16
mercredi 17 septembre 2025 • Durée 44:09
In this episode of How I Hire, Andy Mowat speaks with Manny Medina, Co-Founder & CEO of Paid (an AI agent monetization platform), about dismantling the traditional SaaS hiring playbook that helped define his previous company, Outreach. After scaling Outreach to over 1,000 employees and hundreds of millions in revenue, Manny reveals why he's now refusing to hire senior executives and instead building Paid with a radical junior-first, contractor-heavy approach. His contrarian insights challenge twenty years of VC-backed wisdom about org structure, talent evaluation, and the fundamental economics of building software companies in the AI era.
Topics discussed:
Why the era of templated org structure playbooks is dead: Manny challenges the assumption that every SaaS company needs the standard SDR → AE → CSM structure, arguing companies should question whether these roles should even exist rather than automatically copying what worked elsewhere.
Mission charts over org charts at Paid: Instead of traditional reporting structures, Paid organizes around specific revenue missions (self-serve for agent builders, SaaS companies selling agents, enterprise) with teams aligned to outcomes rather than titles or hierarchies.
The "AI first, then contractor, then person" hiring framework: This progression allows maximum flexibility to correct inevitable hiring mistakes while testing whether roles can be automated before committing to full-time headcount.
Why "no breath is better than bad breath" thinking is dangerous: Manny learned that hiring mediocre talent lowers the bar for future hires and signals to existing team members they can coast, creating a gradual slide from A-players to B-plus teams.
The power of forward deploy engineers learning directly from customers: Putting junior talent in front of customers accelerates their learning curve and business acumen faster than any internal training, while costing a fraction of senior hires.
How aggressive negotiation reveals future management headaches: When candidates push too hard on compensation during offers, it often predicts they'll renegotiate every 60 days, turning one-on-ones into advocacy sessions rather than productive work discussions.
Hiring mistakes aren't permanent if you stay close: By personally onboarding everyone and maintaining proximity to new hires in the first 30-60 days, you can quickly spot mismatches between talent and role requirements, then course-correct before damage compounds.
ABOUT YOUR HOST:
Andy Mowat has built GTM engines for top companies throughout his career. He led Revenue Operations and Demand Gen at four unicorns, including scaling from $10M to $100M ARR at both Upwork and Culture Amp, and helping guide Box and Carta through IPO scale. With a passion for connecting people, Andy has advised executives on their careers for years and launched Whispered to make searching for executive roles less intimidating.
How I Hire with Alina Vandenberghe - Co-CEO & Co-Founder @ Chili Piper
Épisode 15
mercredi 10 septembre 2025 • Durée 34:25
In this episode of How I Hire, Andy Mowat speaks with Alina Vandenberghe, Co-CEO of Chili Piper, about building high-performing remote teams through radical transparency and unconventional talent development. Over 10 years of scaling Chili Piper into a leading demand conversion platform, Alina has developed contrarian approaches to executive hiring, from requiring GTM leaders to pass technical competency tests to sharing complete financial data during interviews. Her insights reveal how treating internal promotion as the default path, rather than external hiring, creates both stronger leadership and better cultural alignment.
Topics discussed:
Why Chili Piper opens their entire data room to all employees, including cash runway, churn rates, and board decks, and how this transparency enables SDRs to develop executive-level thinking and grow into VP roles within the company.
The "electrons and protons" framework for role optimization: identifying energy-giving versus energy-draining tasks for each employee, then strategically deploying fractional specialists and AI agents to handle the draining work while maximizing individual impact zones.
How to evaluate remote work readiness beyond the resume: screening for intrinsic motivation through storytelling passion, why office experience is non-negotiable for junior hires, and the correlation between self-directed learning and remote success.
The technical competency requirement for all GTM executives, including testing CMOs and CROs on JSON and JavaScript understanding, to ensure they can credibly engage with RevOps buyers and technical stakeholders.
The three-part framework for evaluating departure stories: verifying honesty through back-channel references, assessing ownership versus blame mentality, and gauging compassion toward their current employer as a predictor of future behavior.
Why leading with questions rather than data during executive interviews reveals strategic thinking: asking candidates what metrics they need rather than presenting your board deck shows how they prioritize and think about the business.
The paradox of building a fully remote company while prioritizing in-person recruiting at industry events, using stage presence and dinner interactions as leading indicators of cultural fit and relationship-building ability.
How I Hire with Tim Dorris - CRO @ Stensul
Épisode 4
mercredi 9 juillet 2025 • Durée 37:03
In this episode of How I Hire, Andy Mowat speaks with Tim Dorris, Chief Revenue Officer at Stensul, about his systematic approach to hiring executive talent that goes far beyond traditional resume screening. With six years of leadership at Stensul and experience scaling revenue organizations, Tim shares his methodology for identifying the top 10% of executive candidates through outcome-based scorecards, deep historical analysis, and unconventional selling tactics. His insights reveal how to build bulletproof hiring processes that attract A-players while maintaining rigorous standards in today's noisy talent market.
Topics discussed:
How to create outcome-based scorecards collaboratively with founders, people leaders, and direct reports rather than jumping straight to job descriptions, ensuring alignment on what success actually looks like in the first 6-12 months.
The "Who" methodology's "top grade" interview technique—a 90-minute chronological deep dive through every role in a candidate's career that uncovers patterns, motivations, and red flags that traditional interviews miss entirely.
Why Tim positions himself as the first interviewer after recruiter screening to maintain tight feedback loops and prevent his team from wasting time on misaligned candidates, despite the time investment.
The strategic approach to reference checking that leverages the top grade process to identify specific former managers, peers, and direct reports rather than accepting candidates' self-selected references.
How to evaluate whether candidates can step up from individual contributor to manager roles by testing for cross-functional project experience and the ability to manage managers, not just execute within a territory.
Tim's "going all in" candidate courting strategies, including traveling to meet prospects in their cities, involving them in team events like karaoke nights, and creating presentation-style offer processes that mirror executive sales proposals.
The counterintuitive requirement that all executive hires become product demo-certified and master individual contributor skills rather than managing purely through dashboards, ensuring hands-on leadership capability.
Why posting roles publicly still works despite AI-generated application volume, and how to balance broad visibility with targeted recruiting through networks and warm introductions.
How I Hire with Evan Huck - CEO & Co-Founder @ UserEvidence
Épisode 6
mercredi 2 juillet 2025 • Durée 33:31
In this episode of How I Hire, Andy Mowat speaks with Evan Huck, CEO & Co-Founder of UserEvidence, about his systematic approach to executive hiring while scaling from zero to 40 employees. As a former AE turned CEO who still interviews every single hire, Evan shares advanced frameworks for role architecture, candidate evaluation differentiation by function, and decision-making processes that prevent costly mis-hires. His methodology reveals how early-stage leaders can maintain hiring excellence while building the foundational team that determines long-term trajectory.
Topics discussed:
The role portfolio methodology for unfamiliar executive functions—how Evan mapped his first VP Marketing hire to 50% product marketing, 30% brand, 20% demand gen by conducting discovery interviews with marketers to understand skill set differences, then matching capabilities to company-specific initiatives rather than generic job descriptions.
Function-specific candidate evaluation strategies that match role requirements—why sales candidates must demonstrate multi-threaded outreach to multiple stakeholders during application (testing core job skills), while engineering candidates should follow standard application processes, with marketing requiring essay-based assessments for writing evaluation.
The rationalization identification framework for preventing mis-hires—distinguishing between candidates who make hiring managers "beaming and stoked" versus those who trigger qualification language like "lots of relevant experience" and "really good at this dimension," which signals dangerous rationalization patterns.
Advanced reference call techniques that extract meaningful differentiation—moving beyond checkbox validation to identify "would hire again" versus "top 1% of my career, would move mountains to work with again" responses, plus recognizing the power signal when employed candidates provide current CEO references.
The Socratic overrule method for maintaining hiring standards without undermining manager autonomy—using inception techniques to challenge enthusiasm levels and test conviction through defensive responses rather than direct vetoes, ensuring A-players hire A-players cascading effect.
How I Hire with Dustin Joost - CRO @ Suralink
Épisode 5
mercredi 25 juin 2025 • Durée 31:32
In this episode of How I Hire, Andy Mowat speaks with Dustin Joost, CRO at Suralink, about his systematic approach to breaking traditional hiring patterns that create organizational blind spots. From his experience scaling revenue teams from seed stage through public companies, Dustin reveals how talent market dynamics fundamentally alter recruiting strategies and why the best revenue leaders optimize for stage-fit over industry experience. His frameworks challenge executives to rethink what makes candidates "incredibly deadly" in evolving GTM environments.
Topics discussed:
Why optimizing for "complementary excellence" over carbon copies prevents blind spots as businesses mature, and the specific assessment criteria Dustin uses to identify candidates who fill strategic gaps rather than replicate existing team strengths.
The intellectual curiosity + hunger + self-awareness combination that creates "incredible deadliness" through coachability, including how to evaluate these intangibles during interviews and why this trinity outweighs industry-specific experience for executive hires.
How to implement "just-in-time hiring sprints" with 90-day retrospectives covering channel conversion metrics, bottleneck analysis, and specific SLAs for interviewing committees—treating talent acquisition like product development cycles.
The bench pipeline methodology of maintaining 3-5 pre-vetted candidates through weekly conversations, enabling urgency without lowered standards while staying two quarters ahead of hiring needs based on 90-day average time-to-fill benchmarks.
Why non-traditional backgrounds (teachers managing 30 different learning styles, theater actors mastering tension/payoff storytelling) consistently outperform traditional sales hires in complex category creation and enterprise motions.
The "magic wand friction point" interview question that surfaces cross-functional empathy and systems-level problem-solving in one response, revealing how candidates think about their role in the entire customer journey versus lone-wolf mentalities.
How candidates break through noise using creative outbound tactics—commenting on CRO posts for pattern recognition, leveraging second-degree connections with templated referral messages, and demonstrating sales methodology in their own candidacy approach.
The "strategy, structure, people, process" onboarding framework combined with empowerment-then-monitoring approach, using first 30-60 day execution depth (sales leaders running cycles, marketing leaders joining prospect calls) to distinguish managing-up from genuine impact.
How I Hire with Ejieme Eromosele - VP of Customer Growth @ Quiq
Épisode 3
mercredi 18 juin 2025 • Durée 33:28
In this episode of How I Hire, Andy Mowat speaks with Ejieme Eromosele, VP of Customer Growth at Quiq, about her systematic approach to evaluating three-dimensional candidate fit and her tactical frameworks for identifying transferable competencies in non-traditional hires. Drawing from her transition from management consulting at Accenture and PwC to customer experience leadership at The New York Times and now scaling customer success at a Series A startup, Ejieme reveals advanced hiring methodologies that prioritize core capabilities over industry experience.
Topics discussed:
How to evaluate three-dimensional candidate fit: role alignment, team maturity (process-builder vs. operator), and company stage matching—including the "machete vs. map" framework for identifying who thrives in ambiguous startup environments.
Why you need three types of references for leadership hires: manager, peer, and direct report perspectives that reveal candidates who manage up brilliantly but "elbow and knife" their peers to get ahead.
The "keep it real" pre-offer conversation that prevents misaligned hires—inspired by Ejieme's CEO taking her to lunch to honestly explain startup chaos before she joined, saving both parties from a costly mistake.
How top candidates differentiate themselves by explaining your company through customer pain points rather than product features, plus Ejieme's go-to question: "Tell me about a time a customer changed your point of view."
The onboarding template that accelerates cross-functional relationships by pre-mapping new hires to key stakeholders with specific conversation topics, turning generic coffee chats into strategic relationship building.
How to identify transferable skills in atypical hires by focusing on core competencies (leadership, relationship development, business acumen) rather than industry experience—the approach that got Ejieme her first VP role in tech.
Why AI is creating both smarter candidates and more hiring noise, plus tactical considerations for screening authenticity when candidates over-leverage AI research for interviews.
Real-world case study of redesigning roles when AI eliminates 50% of tasks—how Ejieme is creating a hybrid AM/RevOps position and applying the "scale rules" principle for sustainable growth.
How I Hire with Tim Geisenheimer, CRO @ Hatch
Épisode 2
mardi 3 juin 2025 • Durée 32:45
In this episode of How I Hire, Andy Mowat speaks with Tim Geisenheimer, CRO at Hatch, about building high-performing outbound sales teams in the AI era. Drawing from his experience scaling revenue organizations at Twitter, Correlated, and now Hatch, Tim shares tactical frameworks for identifying candidates who thrive in phone-centric environments, conducting scientific reference checks, and managing complex interview processes. His insights reveal how successful CROs are adapting their hiring strategies while maintaining focus on fundamental sales fundamentals that AI hasn't disrupted.
Topics discussed:
Why cold calling remains the dominant channel for B2B enterprise sales despite AI advancement, and how to screen SDRs specifically for phone-centric roles rather than multi-channel generalists.
The "stretch candidate" philosophy borrowed from Jason Lemkin—when to hire someone who hasn't seen your exact growth story before versus requiring proven pattern recognition at your stage and scale.
How to conduct "back-channel" reference checks by intentionally seeking out former colleagues the candidate didn't recommend, and the specific questioning framework that removes hiring bias to focus on management optimization.
The tactical approach to managing multiple candidates through lengthy interview processes—treating it like fundraising orchestration with transparent communication about timelines and decision points.
Why the best senior candidates proactively reach out with personalized research about specific open roles, and how this simple outbound tactic works because so few executives actually do it.
The intellectual curiosity framework for identifying early onboarding red flags—specifically looking for bias-to-action and self-directed learning within the first two weeks at fast-growing companies.
How AI tools like ChatGPT's O3 have raised the baseline expectation for candidate research, making company and role preparation non-negotiable rather than impressive.
The counterintuitive onboarding philosophy for 100-person startups that balances structured enablement with self-directed discovery, expecting new hires to schedule their own CEO meetings and cross-functional conversations.
How I Hire with Karrie Sanderson, Marketing Strategy/Chief of Staff (LiveRamp)
Épisode 1
lundi 19 mai 2025 • Durée 36:51
In this episode of How I Hire, Andy Mowat speaks with Karrie Sanderson, Marketing Strategy/Chief of Staff at LiveRamp, about her distinctive approach to building exceptional marketing teams. Drawing from her diverse experience at leading brands including Coca-Cola, Starbucks, Pfizer, Smartsheet, and Typeform, Karrie shares frameworks for identifying talent gaps, evaluating candidates beyond traditional metrics, and navigating today's employer-friendly market. Her insights reveal how strength-based leadership can transform both hiring processes and team dynamics.
Topics Discussed:
How departures of senior talent create strategic opportunities to reassess organizational structure rather than simply backfilling the same role without evaluation.
Why LiveRamp's "hungry, humble, smart" framework identifies candidates with the right balance of curiosity, humility, and emotional/organizational intelligence needed for senior roles.
How Coca-Cola's strength-based team building methodology creates complementary leadership teams where diversity of strengths leads to more effective problem-solving and innovation.
Why posting senior roles publicly can generate 2,000-3,000 applications, and the tactical approach to leveraging 8-12 specialized Slack communities as filtered talent pools.
The critical importance of handling candidate rejections professionally, especially for senior roles where "ghosting" qualified candidates can damage employer brand in tight-knit industries.
Why the traditional categorization of CMOs as brand, demand gen, or product marketing specialists creates an artificial framework that sets marketing leaders up for failure.
How a "people first" onboarding strategy that invests 2-3 weeks in relationship building accelerates long-term performance despite seeming counterintuitive when roles have been vacant.
Why passive candidates often make superior hires because they're "running to" rather than "running from" opportunities, and how to adjust evaluation criteria for their different engagement patterns.
The diminishing value of case studies and take-home assignments when hiring senior executives in competitive markets, and more effective alternatives for assessing strategic thinking.
How I Hire with Patty DuChene - SVP of Marketing and Growth @ Sendoso
Épisode 14
mercredi 3 septembre 2025 • Durée 37:46
In this episode of How I Hire, Andy Mowat speaks with Patty DuChene, SVP of Marketing and Growth at Sendoso, about her systematic approach to inheriting and rebuilding teams post-acquisition. Drawing from her experience scaling from first sales hire at bootstrapped Wrike to leading teams through high-growth trajectories, Patty shares her 45-day team diagnostic framework, her contrarian stance against case studies, and why she deliberately targets hospitality veterans and returning parents for revenue roles.
Topics discussed:
The JD forensics methodology for new leaders—systematically auditing every team member's original job description against their actual time allocation through self-assessment, revealing scope creep patterns where critical functions (like demand gen) were consuming 40% instead of planned 10% of bandwidth.
Why deliberately posting senior roles publicly functions as a behavioral screen for leaders who retain entrepreneurial hunger—specifically filtering for executives willing to navigate competitive application processes rather than waiting for recruiters to approach them passively.
The acquisition integration playbook of cataloging competitor intimidation factors first—identifying specific capabilities that created competitive anxiety, then reverse-engineering those strengths into role definitions and team gaps for the combined entity.
Google's empirical finding that three 45-minute interviews predict role fit regardless of seniority level, making organizations requiring 6+ interviews or extensive case studies symptomatic of executive indecision rather than thoroughness.
Non-traditional talent arbitrage strategies targeting hospitality professionals (bartenders managing 2am crowd control translate directly to cold-calling resilience) and returning parents (daily EQ testing with children builds exceptional people leadership capabilities that surface in management roles).
Two behavioral interview questions that bypass resume screening: Asking "What are you most proud of?" without clarification to assess self-direction versus approval-seeking, and "What's the last thing you taught someone?" to evaluate knowledge transfer capabilities essential for cross-functional influence.
The strategic onboarding framework of pre-structured cross-functional stakeholder meetings with specific agendas, enabling new hires to understand each leader's decision-making triggers and craft compelling change narratives from day one.
How I Hire with Mike Weir - CRO @ Finalis
Épisode 13
mercredi 27 août 2025 • Durée 45:29
In this episode of How I Hire, Andy Mowat speaks with Mike Weir, CRO of Finalis and former CRO of G2, about his tactical approach to executive hiring at inflection points. Mike shares the specific methodologies he uses to assess leadership gaps when joining early-stage companies, restructure inherited hiring processes mid-flight, and design roles that prevent the expensive cycle of executive turnover. His contrarian insights on posting strategy, interview control dynamics, and pre-emptive problem solving reveal how intentional hiring decisions compound organizational velocity.
Topics discussed:
Why head of revenue operations is the critical first hire within 30 days of any CRO joining: Serving as brain trust for business fundamentals while functioning as organizational ambassador who keeps leadership accountable to cross-functional stakeholders and long-term planning.
The precise methodology for inheriting in-process executive searches: How Mike evaluates existing candidates without prior team bias, uses the interview process to calibrate expectations with peer leadership, and reshapes job requirements mid-search when business needs shift.
The bright-line rule for executive recruitment: C-suite roles never get posted due to competitive intelligence risks and requirement customization needs, while VP-level roles always get posted to access talent pools beyond homogeneous networks—with specific tactics for managing high-volume applications.
Strategic role architecture decisions: When to hire Chief Sales Officer versus full-stack CRO based on company stage and CEO capacity, including the trade-offs of having the CEO become the final go-to-market decider and required operational depth this demands.
The "business conversation litmus test" for senior leadership interviews: If candidates cannot engage in strategic dialogue about real company challenges and offer substantive questions within the first interaction, they lack the executive presence required for autonomous leadership roles.
Mike's pre-structured onboarding methodology: A meticulously mapped 3-week schedule with defined meeting agendas for peer introductions, foundational knowledge transfer, and strategic context—designed to accelerate time-to-impact while securing early wins before complex problem inheritance.
The preemptive talent management approach: Why Mike negotiates difficult personnel decisions and active performance issues before new executive hires start, preventing them from absorbing political damage and relationship capital loss in their first 90 days.
Podcasts Similaires Basées sur le Contenu
Découvrez des podcasts liées à How I Hire. Explorez des podcasts avec des thèmes, sujets, et formats similaires. Ces similarités sont calculées grâce à des données tangibles, pas d'extrapolations !
The intensive onboarding approach where new executives spend multiple days at Alina's home, observing founder-mode operations firsthand and understanding how personal mission integrates with business execution, plus explicitly communicating where founder support ends and external mentorship begins.
ABOUT YOUR HOST:
Andy Mowat has built GTM engines for top companies throughout his career. He led Revenue Operations and Demand Gen at four unicorns, including scaling from $10M to $100M ARR at both Upwork and Culture Amp, and helping guide Box and Carta through IPO scale. With a passion for connecting people, Andy has advised executives on their careers for years and launched Whispered to make searching for executive roles less intimidating.
Andy Mowat has built GTM engines for top companies throughout his career. He led Revenue Operations and Demand Gen at four unicorns, including scaling from $10M to $100M ARR at both Upwork and Culture Amp, and helping guide Box and Carta through IPO scale. With a passion for connecting people, Andy has advised executives on their careers for years and launched Whispered to make searching for executive roles less intimidating.
Skip-level interview strategy as competitive differentiation—how CEO involvement in non-executive hires becomes a closing tool against competitors while serving as cultural bar-raising, with plans to maintain two-level skip interviews through 300+ employees.
The patience-over-urgency principle with quantified decision frameworks—recognizing that 3 weeks of additional search time prevents 4-6 months of performance management, while offering 2-week decompression periods between roles for tenured candidates to reset before multi-year commitments.
Consulting-style aptitude assessment across all roles using problem-solving scenarios unrelated to specific function—evaluating raw IQ, assumption-laying ability, and "chill humble" cultural fit over experience matching, particularly critical for early-career hires where potential trumps track record.
ABOUT YOUR HOST:
Andy Mowat has built GTM engines for top companies throughout his career. He led Revenue Operations and Demand Gen at four unicorns, including scaling from $10M to $100M ARR at both Upwork and Culture Amp, and helping guide Box and Carta through IPO scale. With a passion for connecting people, Andy has advised executives on their careers for years and launched Whispered to make searching for executive roles less intimidating.
Andy Mowat has built GTM engines for top companies throughout his career. He led Revenue Operations and Demand Gen at four unicorns, including scaling from $10M to $100M ARR at both Upwork and Culture Amp, and helping guide Box and Carta through IPO scale. With a passion for connecting people, Andy has advised executives on their careers for years and launched Whispered to make searching for executive roles less intimidating.
Andy Mowat has built GTM engines for top companies throughout his career. He led Revenue Operations and Demand Gen at four unicorns, including scaling from $10M to $100M ARR at both Upwork and Culture Amp, and helping guide Box and Carta through IPO scale. With a passion for connecting people, Andy has advised executives on their careers for years and launched Whispered to make searching for executive roles less intimidating.
Andy Mowat has built GTM engines for top companies throughout his career. He led Revenue Operations and Demand Gen at four unicorns, including scaling from $10M to $100M ARR at both Upwork and Culture Amp, and helping guide Box and Carta through IPO scale. With a passion for connecting people, Andy has advised executives on their careers for years and launched Whispered to make searching for executive roles less intimidating.
Andy Mowat has built GTM engines for top companies throughout his career. He led Revenue Operations and Demand Gen at four unicorns, including scaling from $10M to $100M ARR at both Upwork and Culture Amp, and helping guide Box and Carta through IPO scale. With a passion for connecting people, Andy has advised executives on their careers for years and recently launched Whispered to make searching for executive roles less intimidating.
The 45-day confidence litmus test for senior hires—executives who haven't begun making autonomous decisions by this milestone typically indicate fundamental issues with executive presence that compound over time, requiring immediate intervention or replacement.
ABOUT YOUR HOST:
Andy Mowat has built GTM engines for top companies throughout his career. He led Revenue Operations and Demand Gen at four unicorns, including scaling from $10M to $100M ARR at both Upwork and Culture Amp, and helping guide Box and Carta through IPO scale. With a passion for connecting people, Andy has advised executives on their careers for years and launched Whispered to make searching for executive roles less intimidating.
Technical assessment frameworks for executive hiring: Using real business scenarios and current decision points as case studies to evaluate thinking processes, stakeholder engagement approaches, and decision-making frameworks rather than theoretical responses.
ABOUT YOUR HOST:
Andy Mowat has built GTM engines for top companies throughout his career. He led Revenue Operations and Demand Gen at four unicorns, including scaling from $10M to $100M ARR at both Upwork and Culture Amp, and helping guide Box and Carta through IPO scale. With a passion for connecting people, Andy has advised executives on their careers for years and launched Whispered to make searching for executive roles less intimidating.
