WILL - Women Interested in Leaving Law – Details, episodes & analysis

Imagine you’re a mid-level IP associate at a big firm. 

You’ve just had your first child.  As the end of your mat leave rapidly approaches, you consider going back to work 50% time for 50% pay.  But after looking at your family finances, you see that you and your medical resident spouse are $670K in debt! 

That would have sent me back to bed, but not our next guest on the WILL Podcast, Rho Thomas.  

Rho not only went back to work full-time, she got to work to reduce their debt, which she more than halved in just a few years.  

After overcoming the shame, she began to share her story (anonymously at first). Rho now helps lawyers get out of debt and control of their money.  

Listen in as Rho:

• Tells about the moment she realized she and her husband had $678,000 in debt.
• Learned how to reduce that by more than half in a few years.
• Felt the call to blog, then podcast about her journey. 

Where to find Rho:

Instagram: @iamrhothomas

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/iamrhothomas

Website: https://www.rhothomas.com 

Podcast: Personal Finance for Lawyers with Rho Thomas - https://www.rhothomas.com/podcast 

The WILL Podcast is hosted by Elena Deutsch, a dedicated legal career coach and catalyst.  This podcast is more than a good listen — it may inspire you.  As WILL Alumni and Guests break the confines of traditional practice, you’ll see that change is not just possible for them, but for you too. 

Feel stuck, unhappy and ready to explore a WILL journey of your own?

Book your consultation with Elena:

https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/book-a-call 

Follow

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elena-deutsch 

Instagram: www.instagram.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw

Web: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com 

Does your heart stop when you get an email from a certain partner or client?

Have you experienced health concerns that doctors have been unable to diagnose - like stomach pain, rashes or hair loss?

You didn’t used to “be an anxious person” but now you wonder if this is who you are?

If you’re increasingly concerned about the toll anxiety from work is taking on your physical and mental health, this is for you.

In this episode, Elena shares her understanding of “situational anxiety” and how she sees it impacting women lawyers.    

She openly explains:  

• What occurs in the body and the effect of living in a frequent state of stress.
• How being self-compassionate can help (and why that’s so hard for women lawyers).
• Three techniques to reduce anxiety and regain calm.

References

Book: The High Five Habit, Mel Robbins

Trigger Warning: Anxiety, mental health. Elena is not a licensed mental health professional. If you are experiencing significant anxiety, then we recommend talking to a health professional. 

Hosted by Elena Deutsch, a dedicated legal career coach and catalyst, the WILL Podcast is more than a good listen — it may inspire you.  As WILL Alumni and Guests break the confines of traditional practice, you’ll see that change is not just possible for them, but for you too. 

Feel stuck, unhappy and ready to explore a WILL journey of your own?

Book your consultation with Elena: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/book-a-call 

Follow

Web: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elena-deutsch 

Instagram: www.instagram.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw 

Imagine feeling overwhelmed and stressed as a big law litigator, breaking down on the A train to JFK as you head to England for the Christmas holidays.

Imagine a weird relief that COVID offers, as you move temporarily to Vermont where you begin to sort out what you’d really like to do next.   

Imagine deciding to forgo law, only to discover an ideal job while writing a joke for your burgeoning stand-up comedy routine.   

In this episode, meet Pamela T, a former big law attorney, who had an epic journey across four countries before landing in Newcastle, England. 

Now she pursues her dual passions - fighting the patriarchy and comedy, all while raising her son and enjoying the occasional good cup of coffee after Pilates.  You can’t make this up!

In our conversation, hear how:

• COVID helped Pamela step off the lock-step path and expand her perception of reality. 
• She freed herself from her firm in stages.
• ONE phone call with a Greek comedian opened up a world of opportunities.
• Pamela turned away from law before landing an ideal legal role.
• Mindset shifts help her in all aspects of life, and especially after a bombed a comedy set.  

Hosted by Elena Deutsch, a dedicated legal career coach and catalyst, the WILL Podcast is more than a good listen — it may inspire you.  As WILL Alumni and Guests break the confines of traditional practice, you’ll see that change is not just possible for them, but for you too. 

Note: In this episode you’ll hear me refer to a tech fail, but my editing team patched it up - so it should be fairly smooth listening!  Please enjoy this inaugural episode of the WILL Podcast!!

Trigger warning: miscarriage, sexual assault and cults.

References

• Midnight in Cairo, by Raphael Cormack
• The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron

Follow Pamela on Instagram: @pt_lolz.

What is the nature of human existence?

What are challenges?  

What if challenges are opportunities to help you grow past your conditioning and habitual responses?

These very light questions 🤣 and how you can use challenges to expand and grow are the topic of this solo episode! 

What if challenges are a chance for you to CLARIFY your VALUES and DESIRES?

Listen in to shift the way you think so you can move through the hard stuff more easily and expand your capacity for more joy, alignment and pleasure.

See how your challenges can become opportunities to become the person who has moved through the difficulties, into a new identity.

This mini thought-provoking episode can help you deep-dive your own challenges and how they can transport you towards a greater YOU.

The WILL Podcast is hosted by Elena Deutsch, a dedicated legal career coach and catalyst.  This podcast is more than a good listen — it may inspire you.  As WILL Alumni and Guests break the confines of traditional practice, you’ll see that change is not just possible for them, but for you too. 

Feel stuck, unhappy and ready to explore a WILL journey of your own?

Book your consultation with Elena: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/book-a-call

Follow

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elena-deutsch/ 

Instagram: www.instagram.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw

Imagine being a little kid and building your daily outfits around giant hair bows! 

Imagine having part of your soul die while in law school, putting your head down and grinding it out.

Imagine, being told by your future husband, that you always wear black.

Estelle Winsett takes us on a journey from her childhood exuberant self, to a staid lawyer until she rediscovered her love of style and what it can do for women lawyers.

As an attorney who practiced in multiple arenas - from litigation to universities and firm professional development roles, she knows how important it is for women lawyers to be taken seriously, without being TOO serious.  And how their personal style can speak for them without saying a word.

At the bottom line of what Estelle does is help women accept who they are and shine!.

This episode of the WILL Podcast might help you up your delight in how you dress to best represent yourself. 

Where to find Estelle:

Website: https://estellewinsett.com

Click here to book a call with her: bit.ly/Stylecall

Powerhouse Facebook Group: bit.ly/powerhousestyle (Free private FB Group)

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/estellewinsett

IG: https://www.instagram.com/estellewinsett

https://www.tiktok.com/@estellewinsettstyle

Show notes:   

Interests can turn into income: Jenny McKee’s Episode - From Lawyer to Astrologer: The Path to Authenticity

Imagine you’re happy as a lawyer, yet feel that your creativity is stifled.

Or that you can’t be creative as a lawyer as it doesn’t ‘fit’ what a lawyer should be.

Kyla Denanyoh showcased her efficiency and project management skills so well that while on maternity leave, she rendered her role obsolete. 

Instead of fear, Kyla was excited about moving forward in her side hustle - Podcasting and YouTubing, because a stream of sponsorships proved that she could make money non-lawyering.

Now a seasoned podcaster with over 130 episodes and a salary from sponsorships, Kyla embodies the ‘multipotentialite’ (someone with many skillsets and role options).

Listen in as Kyla:

• Uses her challenge with the typical stereotype of ‘lawyer’ to lean into a creative identity.
• Dives into a selection of books that confirm you can make money from any job.
• Flips the narrative of lawyers not being risk-takers.
• Switches her mindset from being a task-based earner to a value-based earner.

Follow Kyla

Podcast: ‘More than a Lawyer’ https://www.youarealawyer.com/ 

Website: Kyla Denanyoh | Storyteller & Strategist

Instagram: Kyla Denanyoh (@mrsdenanyoh)

References

Book: 'We should all be millionaires' - Rachel Rogers.

The WILL Podcast is hosted by Elena Deutsch, a dedicated legal career coach and catalyst.  This podcast is more than a good listen — it may inspire you.  As WILL Alumni and Guests break the confines of traditional practice, you’ll see that change is not just possible for them, but for you too. 

Feel stuck, unhappy and ready to explore a WILL journey of your own?

Book your consultation with Elena: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/book-a-call

Follow

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elena-deutsch/ 

Instagram: www.instagram.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw

Web: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com

How does one go from being a stuck and unhappy long time lawyer to practicing astrologer? 

Well if you’re Jenny McKee of Sky Whispers Astrology, you lean into your strengths, surround yourself with community and take it one slow step at a time.

In this episode Jenny details her journey through WILL programs as she expanded her self-knowledge and trust.

As a listener of the WILL podcast you cannot only hear about her journey, but experience her work for yourself! She shares a generous 15% savings coupon when you use the code WILL when you book any session or package with her. All the details below.

On a personal note, I am so appreciative to Jenny for sharing her journey and for the years of our work together. She showcases an example of what’s possible, not just for her, but for you too.

Have a listen. 

Where to find Jenny:

To learn more about working with Jenny go to: www.skywhispersastrology.com

Use the code: ‘WILL’ on any purchases and save 15%!  

Email: Jenny@skywhispersastrology

Show notes:

The Artist’s Way  by Julia Cameron

WILL Programs mentioned:

The foundational WILL program Jenny started with was called WILL Step-by-Step and is now WILL Transform.  

WILL programs Jenny also participated in, and mentions: 

The Creator’s Circle - a small-group journey through The Artist’s Way  by Julia Cameron.

WILLpreneurs - a small group for women lawyers who want to start their own businesses.

To be notified of when these programs open next,  email Support@womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com  

Gallup Clifton Strengths Assessment: https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/252137/home.aspx

Jenny’s Mentors:

Home - Tom Jacobs

About Debra Anne Clement – Debra Clement Astrologer

The WILL Podcast is hosted by Elena Deutsch, a dedicated legal career coach and catalyst.  This podcast is more than a good listen — it may inspire you.  As WILL Alumni and Guests break the confines of traditional practice, you’ll see that change is not just possible for them, but for you too. 

Feel stuck, unhappy and ready to explore a WILL journey of your own?

Book your consultation with Elena: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/book-a-call 

Follow

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elena-deutsch/ 

Instagram: www.instagram.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw 

Everyone has to set boundaries, but for lawyers, especially women or people socialized as female, working in a “always be available” culture makes it even more challenging and important. 

Add in the hierarchy and not so subtle power-dynamics at law firms, and you have a recipe for being expected to give nearly everything to your job.  

Do you say YES to tasks that you desire to say NO to, because it’s expected?

And do you say NO and cancel things you really want to say YES to, like concert tickets, brunch with friends and vacations without work?

Today’s short solo episode guides you to re-think how to set boundaries in ways that offer protection and relief.

You’ll have a simple framework to help you reclaim what's most important to you - your time, your energy, your life force, so you can either stay more happily in your role and/or make a change.

You’ll learn to:

• Mindset: Shift how you think about boundaries.
• Process: A simple three-step framework to set internal and external boundaries.
• Practise: Put your new skills into action.

References 

Books: The Power of a Positive No and Getting to Yes, both by William Ury.

Find his books and more here: https://www.williamury.com/books/

The WILL Podcast is hosted by Elena Deutsch, a dedicated legal career coach and catalyst.  This podcast is more than a good listen — it may inspire you.  As WILL Alumni and Guests break the confines of traditional practice, you’ll see that change is not just possible for them, but for you too. 

Feel stuck, unhappy and ready to explore a WILL journey of your own?

Book your consultation with Elena: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/book-a-call 

Follow

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elena-deutsch/ 

Instagram: www.instagram.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw

Web: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com 

Imagine winning a rapid defense verdict for your client with only 6 weeks to prepare for trial, only to not be thanked, AND get reprimanded by the managing partner for speaking in a frustrated tone to the junior and paralegal, who you trained up from scratch. 

Imagine not being able to get out of bed for two weeks, and knowing you HAD to do something different.  (Which led you to Google “career coach for lawyers”.)

Imagine being a rising 8th year, knowing the partnership question looms.  You know you don’t want to make partner. You can barely keep your head above water now, and struggle to be as present with your young children as you’d like.  But you don’t know what else you could do or where to begin. 

Listen to this special panel discussion with WILL Alumni Destiny Bounds of Bounds Legal, and Wilder Clements of Clements Employment Law.  They share about their journeys from despair to doing work they love… for themselves.  This is especially for you if you’re feeling helpless and/or if you’re considering starting your own firm.   

As it was a live call, you’ll hear Destiny and Wilder respond to questions from the audience. 

See how Wilder:

• Leveraged a milestone birthday and child starting kindergarten to give themselves permission to explore and dream
• Started their law firm without dipping into any savings! 
• Serves values-aligned business owners, enjoys more time for hiking and being with family and celebrates five years of having their own firm! 

Wilder A. Clements brings experienced and value-driven counsel to purpose-driven businesses and organizations with challenging employment law questions. Wilder is experienced in advising clients on the complexities of federal and state labor and employment law, understands steps businesses and organizations need to take to treat and pay their workers fairly, and serves as an instrumental partner in helping organizations and businesses align purpose with people-first practices.  

Wilder devotes a significant portion of their services to pro bono assistance, including representing LGBTQ+ workers and advising local non-profits on employment law issues.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilderclements/

https://www.instagram.com/clementsemploymentlaw

Listen as Destiny Bounds shares how:

• A mental health crisis helped her take a break from her firm.
• Being in community with other women lawyers surprisingly brought her a lot of clarity and comfort. 
• The clouds that obscured her dreams parted, and was able to take massive action, starting not one, but two businesses!

After leaving her role within a large AMLaw 200 nationwide law firm, Destiny started helping small businesses form strong legal foundations, getting their contracts and legal documents prepared, and, essentially, becoming their “outside” in-house counsel, partnering with them throughout each stage of their business. She realized that she LOVED small business law.

She founded Bounds Business Law with a mission to change the soulless legal profession of law into one that will positively impact the community and beyond.

https://www.linkedin.com/company/bounds-law-llc/

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100091839366389

https://www.instagram.com/legal.fluence/ 

The WILL Podcast is hosted by Elena Deutsch, a dedicated legal career coach and catalyst.  This podcast is more than a good listen — it may inspire you.  As WILL Alumni and Guests break the confines of traditional practice, you’ll see that change is not just possible for them, but for you too. 

Feel stuck, unhappy and ready to explore a WILL journey of your own?

Book your consultation with Elena: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/book-a-call

Follow

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elena-deutsch 

Instagram: www.instagram.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw

Web: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com 

Imagine you’re in a workplace where you know you’re not capitalizing on the best of what you have to offer. You're a creative relationship-builder and feel stymied by the billable hour.  Your current workplace isn't cutting it.

You’re working in law, but not doing work that’s aligned with your values and making a difference in the lives of others.  

Sound familiar?

Rachel Clar's journey out of law started when she realized that a traditional law environment “created a rage inside”. She knew she wasn't living her fullest expression.

In order to venture from her soul, she utilized her natural curiosity to:

• Leverage her strength in networking to build connections.
• Develop self-awareness, confidence and respect.
• Deconstruct fear-based perfectionism and workaholism.

It was at this point that she cracked the code from the inside and founded Interconnected Us, to help women lawyers:

• Optimize their network.
• Go from invisible to making waves.
• Look inward and around themselves to facilitate core inner work.

Listen in as Rachel talks through her journey from unhappy lawyer to aligned and mission-driven entrepreneur!

Connect with Rachel

Website: https://www.interconnectedus.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelclar/

The WILL Podcast is hosted by Elena Deutsch, a dedicated legal career coach and catalyst.  This podcast is more than a good listen — it may inspire you.  As WILL Alumni and Guests break the confines of traditional practice, you’ll see that change is not just possible for them, but for you too. 

Feel stuck, unhappy and ready to explore a WILL journey of your own?

Book your consultation with Elena: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/book-a-call

Follow

Web: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elena-deutsch/ 

Instagram: www.instagram.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/womeninterestedinleavinglaw

References

Self Compassion by Krisin Neff: https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Self_Compassion/PDAEzLL9mscC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT1&printsec=frontcover