B2B product marketers in SaaS businesses are feeling misunderstood. Struggling to position what they do internally. Colleagues not having one clear idea what they do either.
What if there was a better way? This is We're Not Marketers.
The new podcast for SaaSy B2B product marketers who want CEO buy-in on what they do. Get the weekly masterclass without the inflated tuition and entry-level requirements, just to get your foot in the door.
Stop being overlooked and start listening.
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IC vs PMM leadership. Is the promotion today still worth it? (with Emily Pick)
Season 5 · Episode 21
Thursday, October 29, 2026 • Duration 46:30
Emily Pick (Director of Product Marketing at Docebo) can do product marketing in her sleep. So when she earned the director title, she took it. Is it still worth it? She tells her side of the story, and if you're asking yourself the same? You might relate with what's she saying below.
Notable quotes
“I was promoted because I was a good IC, and because I was a good IC, I have opinions about what good looks like.”
“Every yes is a no to something else you’ve already promised.”
“Great launch, great launch. Here’s everything else that’s wrong that needs to be fixed.”
“Can you shoulder the emotions of your team, and can you also have the boundaries that you don’t fully take it home with you every single night?”
Thinking about the jump from IC to PMM leadership? Listen to someone who made it, who will tell you what it costs, and who still thinks her team is the best part of her day.
Time Stamps
00:00 Welcome: Eric, Zach and Gab
00:49 Meet Emily Pick of Docebo, fresh off Highline
02:25 Gab asks: are product marketers actually marketers?
05:40 Player and coach: from IC to director
06:58 The pat on the back you lose as a manager
07:25 Why she left IC after six or seven years
08:39 Zach asks: is it worth it?
09:42 How your leaders make or break the leap
11:56 Zach's story: the manager who punished candor
12:45 Start every one-on-one with how you are
13:23 Can you shoulder your team's emotions?
14:55 A shout-out to the team
16:07 From 10 hours of meetings a week to 25
17:35 Her review note: say no more
18:00 Every yes is a no to something already promised
20:00 Why PMM means constant context switching
21:39 Gab asks: how do you make yourself easy to work with?
22:21 How to say no without starting a fight
24:25 The about-working-with-me doc
25:43 Bring a problem, bring a proposed solution
26:30 Keeping quality up as a player coach
28:37 Promoted for being a good IC
30:34 The pizza place night that taught her to delegate
32:15 Eric asks: is the director track worth it?
33:29 Could you ask your boss to demote you?
37:08 Bad decisions are what give you the experience
Three fractional PMMs (Eric, Gab and Zach), one uncomfortable question:
when you pivot your offer, do you actually know what you're doing?
In this next episode, Zach opens up about his two business pivots this year. Does he know what he's doing? That's what he asked himself.
Nine months passed with ZERO sales.
So he asked Eric and Gab the thing he'd been too embarrassed to ask anyone else. Both said "No, you don't know what you're doing."
Who does?
This is a Misfit episode, just the three of us. We get into how to tell a real signal from a bad month, why differentiation for its own sake doesn't create demand, and Gab's four-letter sales audit (leads, appointments, proposals, sales) to run before you blow anything up.
There's more we cover without going into too much detail here. If you're having a bad month (or year) as a fractional PMM, hop onto this audio therapy session and feel heard.
Show Notes
00:00 Cold open: when your self-worth is tied to your business
00:16 Welcome: Zach, Eric (the Frankenmarketer) and Gab
00:37 A Misfit episode: when you pivot your offer, do you know what you're doing?
01:37 Eric says no: pivoting at 3, 6 or 12 months is too early to know
03:36 Gab: differentiation for its own sake doesn't create demand
03:57 Zach: self-worth, and figuring it out 50/50 as you go
05:07 Gab: be 80% distribution, 20% build
06:32 Eric: you'll know when the wheels come off the train
08:03 The highlight reel: what you see online isn't always what happened
09:51 Zach: is it a business or a hobby?
10:57 Eric: the confidence bucket
They're Paying $400K for a Job Product Marketers Already Do, w/ Elliott Rayner
Season 5 · Episode 19
Thursday, October 8, 2026 • Duration 39:39
Companies are posting head of storytelling roles at around $400K a year, and Elliott Rayner (Head of Storytelling at OWOW Agency and Creator of The Story Cohort) has the receipts: 25 of those job descriptions, pulled apart in his State of Storytelling 2026 report. His read is that it is a chief product marketing officer under a different name. The skill set they are asking for is a product marketing director's skill set. So why is nobody in product marketing putting their hand up?
In this episode, he breaks down his three-question alignment he's run at more than 100 companies, and why the average score is just 19% across orgs. Plus the three chemicals that decide whether a story sells, and why credibility is where most product stories fall apart. Listen now.
Show Notes
00:00 Welcome to season six 00:19 Introducing Elliott Rayner 01:29 Are product marketers actually marketers 03:01 The State of Storytelling report and the $400K roles 05:19 Owning the narrative is not the same as telling stories 07:48 Seven reporting lines across 25 roles 08:59 Storytelling is the skill, narrative is what you own 10:21 Reason one: products got too complex to explain 11:03 Reason two: execution has become cheap, meaning has not 13:17 Storytelling is a science, not a talent you are born with 14:33 Everyone wants to be better at it, nobody studies it 15:54 The three questions every product narrative answers 16:14 Only 19% alignment across more than 100 companies 17:17 Aristotle's triangle: logic, emotion, credibility 18:59 Career paths and where this role fits 21:09 Connecting the story to call recordings and CRM data 24:37 Where the role sits on the org chart 26:02 Nobody hands you $400K without a KPI 28:23 Joseph Campbell's story circle 29:03 Three chemicals that decide whether a story sells 32:07 The gobsmacked problem: rich language now reads as AI 34:34 Fuck, marry, kill: Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Harry Potter 37:33 The Story Engine and why we get addicted to stories38:21 Where to find Elliott
Death to Sameness w/ Nina Churchill
Season 5 · Episode 18
Thursday, October 1, 2026 • Duration 41:15
Nina Churchill quit her corporate PMM job effective immediately. She then wrote a series of posts on LinkedIn that reached about half a million people. She's a fellow product marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts, where she helps B2B companies stop sounding like everyone else.
We get into the post, the burnout and the 11 weeks of FMLA before it, and why we put up with behavior at work that we'd call abuse at home. Then the useful stuff. Why your manager is the top reason you stay or go. The questions to ask a hiring manager before you take the job.
And oh yeah, by the way? She's also coming to Death to Marketing in October.
Timestamps
00:00 Welcome, and the hosts introduce themselves
00:29 Meet Nina Churchill, recovering performance marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts
01:27 Nina's coming to Death to Marketing (and Saugatuck)
02:06 Gab's question: are product marketers ultimately marketers?
03:42 The LinkedIn post that made Eric want to run through a wall
04:18 A new manager, a burnout, and 11 weeks of FMLA
06:44 "Effective immediately"
07:06 Half a million people and a flood of DMs
07:46 Why do we accept at work what we'd call abuse at home?
10:32 Any backlash? "I can't like this, but I respect it"
11:09 "Your LinkedIn is your LinkedIn"
12:25 Jumping without a parachute: therapy, ADHD, and deleting the apps
15:34 Blood pressure, cortisol, and life after quitting
17:59 Boundaries: bad at them, or never practiced?
18:59 Fresh View Concepts, 2011, and some questionable age math
19:32 Running her business differently this time around
Your CEO Just Handed You an Event. Now What? w/ Maggie Arai
Season 5 · Episode 17
Thursday, September 24, 2026 • Duration 41:05
Your CEO just said you're hosting an event. You've never run one. Now what?
Maggie Arai is the Founder of IRL Studios, where she designs in-person events for online brands. She's run more than 70 of them. She's also the person keeping Death to Marketing, our own conference, out of a ballroom with fluorescent lighting.
We asked her what a product marketer needs to know before their first event lands on their desk. Where the budget quietly disappears (food and bev, every time). Why every event needs a 10 to 15% contingency line. And her take on open networking (heads up: not the answer none of us expected).
She also tells us, on the record, where we already messed up planning our own event.
If you've been handed an event with no budget, no team, and a note to "do something like that happy hour," start here.
What and who was mentioned in today's episode IRL Studios, Maggie's company: https://irlstudios.ca
We Spent Three Years Hiding From Dave Gerhardt at His Own Event
Season 5 · Episode 16
Thursday, September 17, 2026 • Duration 31:45
Eric Holland and Gab Bujold recorded this one on a deck in Stowe, Vermont, in the middle of Drive, with a cardboard cutout of Zach standing in for the third host. It is the first We're Not Marketers episode made in person, and it is mostly about why the three of them keep showing up to the same conference in fake mustaches.
The costumes started as a joke about not being allowed into a marketing event by a podcast called We're Not Marketers. Three years later the bit has produced a real relationship with Dave Gerhardt, a running gag the check-in desk now expects, and enough conviction to go build their own event.
Show Notes 00:00 Cold open at Drive, and the first We're Not Marketers recorded in person
00:25 Why Zach is on tape as a cardboard cutout
01:02 Why three product marketers keep coming back to the same Vermont conference
01:28 The disguise started as a joke about not being let into a marketing event
02:18 How Drive turned into a family vacation
03:12 Gab's four hour drive from Quebec City with a six month old and a corgi
05:03 Why not San Francisco, and why not Vegas
06:02 Why are we dressing like a bunch of assholes
06:29 The real first reason for the costumes: hiding from Dave
07:03 The clumsy first year, and feeling like a misfit in the room
08:19 Dave Gerhardt walks up: Hey, guy with the hair
11:27 Why the costume works, and the comment from the check-in desk
12:18 Where Zach actually is, and why he still got more selfies than either host
13:33 Why product marketers specifically need to get uncomfortable
13:44 Gab on product marketers being scared to ask for budget
Why Is Every Product Marketer Suddenly Being Asked to Make Video? w/ Natalie Taylor
Season 5 · Episode 15
Thursday, September 10, 2026 • Duration 36:33
Video landed on every marketer's plate this year. Nobody added headcount for it, and nobody explained how to actually get one made. Natalie Taylor runs marketing at Capsule, where enterprise teams like HubSpot, ServiceNow and Instacart build on-brand video without going through a creative team, and she has spent two years watching product marketers get stuck in the same queue.
Her fix runs against the standard playbook. Stop treating the launch video as the last asset. Make it first, because it is the most complex format you own, and once it is right the copy, the visuals and the email GIFs all fall out of it.
She also walks through what an agentic video skill actually does, step by step, and says the quiet part out loud about her own category: most AI product demos are not showing you real output. Then the whole thing detours into a pizza tier list that somehow lands the sharpest AI argument in the episode.
SHOW NOTES
00:00 Cold open and host introductions
00:41 Natalie joins, and admits she has never held the title of product marketer
01:56 The question the show exists for: are product marketers actually marketers?
02:18 Why marketing labels never made sense to her
03:20 "You're a marketer if you're doing marketing"
03:24 The one exception: why demand gen sits in its own bucket
05:19 The Tuesday afternoon Slack message that says "let's do some product videos"
05:54 Everyone is being asked to make video, job description or not
07:36 The old workflow: ask the creative team, join the queue, wait
08:25 Fully agentic video, without opening an editing tool
09:23 Eric asks whether video is back in fashion or just newly possible
PMA Offered Us $200. We Said "No Deal", and Built Our Own Event
Season 5 · Episode 14
Thursday, September 3, 2026 • Duration 49:12
This is the Death to Marketing episode. Zach, Eric and Gab take stock of what it has actually cost to build a conference from nothing: the $200 sponsorship offer that set the whole thing in motion, the $90,000 in sponsors they have since closed, the 48 people who have bought tickets, and the friend who texted to say he wasn't coming.
What it does to you when the success of your business becomes the measure of you as a person, why selling tickets turned out to be harder than selling sponsors, and the lesson none of them expected to learn about asking for help.
Death to Marketing is October 11 in Holland, Michigan. *Recorded August 10, 2026.
Show Notes
(00:00) Why the branding scared people off — on purpose
(00:39) "It's not an event for everybody"
(01:46) Neither of them had ever run an event
(02:58) The $200 offer that started all of this
(03:23) From a $200 reimbursement to $90,000 in sponsors
(04:30) The math that made no sense
(05:04) The two events that set the bar
(06:46) Are conferences a crutch for the PMM community?
(10:28) Enough about PMA
(11:02) The real number, said out loud
(11:05) "48 people we have to pay to have a good time"
(12:24) Someone bought a ticket from Scotland
(12:55) What turned out to be easier than expected
(13:11) The moment it stopped being a bit and became a real event
(14:12) "This is the rollercoaster we're going to be taking"
(15:22) Hiring a partner who pushes back on you
(16:37) What Eric took on personally
(20:05) Why planning it made it easier to say no to sponsors
(20:36) Running an event like a product launch
(22:05) How this compares to every sales kickoff they've sat through
(23:05) The one thing no other event is doing
(25:21) The hard stuff starts here
(25:49) When your business becomes your identity
(26:54) The text from a friend who wasn't coming
(27:37) "An event run by these three losers"
(29:00) "I want this to be the only event we ever throw"
How a Guy Who Graded Film Got Tricked Into Product Marketing w/ Jason Druss
Season 5 · Episode 13
Thursday, May 14, 2026 • Duration 49:31
Jason Druss spent 15 years being the customer — a film colorist at Warner Bros, NFL Films, and his own Philly boutique — before Adobe pulled him into product marketing for Premier Pro and After Effects. In this episode, Jason (Principal Product Marketing Manager, Adobe) drops his takes: why workflow isn't a buzzword when you've actually lived it, how his team runs a private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users, and why being your own ICP is both a superpower and a trap.
If you've ever felt like a fraud talking about users you've never met, this one's for you.
More from this episode
Why "customer" gives Jason the ick (and what word he uses instead)
The PMM job is 50% talking to users — not Slack, not slides, not strategy decks
How Adobe's PMM team gets buy-in before a feature exists, not after
The Tarantino move: why Jason starts every story at the end
Being your own ICP is a cheat code… until it makes you look like a fanboy at annual planning
The exact reason Frame.io's Camera to Cloud killed an industry workflow that hadn't changed since 1920
Why every PMM should buy a pillow with their product's logo on it (yes, really)
The unsexy truth about "creative freedom" — you have to earn it with data first
How Jason found his PMM job: he wasn't looking, his mentor was watching his LinkedIn posts
Why "make it pretty" and "make it beautiful" are two completely different briefs
Time Stamps 00:00 Cold open — the misfit intros
00:45 Why this episode is different: a PMM pulled IN to PMM, not chasing it
01:30 Jason Druss intro — from colorist to Adobe PMM
AI is killing your marketing (one way to fix) w/ Gila Shapiro
Season 5 · Episode 12
Thursday, May 7, 2026 • Duration 41:44
Some of B2B are the cool kids shouting "synergy" with spinach dip in hand. Gila Shapiro — copywriter, PMM, and resident chaos agent at Fireflies.ai — joined the crew to roast corporate buzzwords, expose "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" with AI, and give the founder POV trick that ends executive copy fights forever.
If you've ever been asked to "elevate enterprise synergies," this one's for you.
More from this episode
The two words that should disqualify any marketer from giving copy feedback (hint: rhymes with "synergy")
Why having a frying pan doesn't make you a chef — and writing copy doesn't make you a copywriter
The "shout pineapple" school of copywriting
Why B2B brands are scared of being unfollowed — and why that's why nobody clicks
The dinner party test that kills 90% of corporate jargon on contact
The difference between "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" (and why one of these kills your career in 18 months)
Gila's reverse-engineering trick for ending founder vs. marketer copy fights forever
Why making your boss happy and making your customer click are two completely different jobs
The brutally honest reason most messaging processes are broken — and the only fix that actually works
Gila pitches Riverside vs. SquadCast live on the show (and we may or may not be switching now)
Show Notes
Timespan:
00:00 Cold Open & Host Introductions (Eric, Zach, Gab)
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