Pushing The Limits – Details, episodes & analysis

In this episode, we dive deep into the science of longevity with Courtney Van Bussum, COO of Longevity Launch Labs. Courtney shares her insights on the NAD (Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide) pathway, a critical component in the aging process and how we can leverage it for longevity optimization. We explore the fascinating molecule 1-MNA (1-Methylnicotinamide), its unique role in the body, and how it helps lower levels of the NNMT (Nicotinamide N-methyltransferase) enzyme, which is associated with various age-related diseases and metabolic disorders.

Key Topics Discussed:

1. Introduction to the NAD Pathway:

   • Overview of the NAD pathway and its significance in cellular metabolism and aging.
   • The role of NAD+ in DNA repair, energy production, and maintaining cellular health.

2. Understanding 1-MNA (1-Methylnicotinamide):

   • What is 1-MNA, and what is it's role in the NAD story.
   • The unique properties of 1-MNA and its potential as a longevity molecule.

3. The NNMT Enzyme and Its Implications for Health:

   • Explanation of NNMT (Nicotinamide N-methyltransferase) and its impact on metabolic health and aging.
   • How elevated NNMT levels are linked to obesity, cancer, diabetes, and other age-related diseases.

4. How 1-MNA Lowers NNMT Levels:

   • The mechanism by which 1-MNA reduces NNMT activity, promoting healthier aging.
   • Potential benefits of 1-MNA in reducing inflammation, improving metabolism, and supporting overall health.
5.  How the immune system and NAD pathways are both key to longevity and health optimisation and how we can leverage and optimise both as we age. 

6. Longevity Optimization Strategies:

   • How targeting the NAD pathway and modulating NNMT activity can be part of a comprehensive longevity strategy.
   • Practical tips for integrating 1-MNA and other NAD-boosting supplements into your daily routine.

7. Courtney's Vision for the Future of Longevity Research:

   • Insights into the latest developments at Longevity Launch Labs.
   • The future of NAD research and its potential to revolutionize aging and healthcare.

If you want to supplement 1-MNA you can now get it in our Longevity and Anti-Aging store 

Bio

Courtney Van Bussum is a dynamic entrepreneur and business leader who currently serves as the COO of Longevity Launch Labs, a pioneering incubator focused on advancing the Cellular and Longevity Medicine sectors. With a Bachelor of Science in Biomedical Engineering from Arizona State University, Barrett Honors College, Courtney has overseen several startups in the healthcare and medical arenas ranging from fitness applications to wearable medical devices. Her early career began as a strategy consultant in Scottsdale, Arizona where she honed her skills by working with Fortune 500 companies and startups, streamlining processes and driving innovation.

In 2020, Courtney joined the Boulder Longevity Institute, where she played a crucial role in enhancing the institute's core technology and operational systems. Two years later, she co-founded Longevity Launch Labs, where she has been instrumental in building the operational frameworks that have propelled the incubator to become a key connector in the industry. Under her leadership, Longevity Launch Labs offers a range of services including product co-formulation and development, distribution, product rollout strategy, and mentorship, all aimed at supporting companies and healthcare practitioners in the rapidly evolving field of longevity medicine. Through Launch's Longevity Impact Fund, Courtney also helps early-stage startups access key capital to further development of their healthcare innovations.

Having grown up around the world of medicine, Courtney understands that changing healthcare can only be achieved through creating innovative parallel systems that improve outcomes and experience. Her visionary leadership and deep expertise make her an invaluable voice in the conversation around healthcare innovation and longevity.

• Subscribe to our podcast for more expert insights on longevity, health optimization, and cutting-edge research.
• Visit Longevity Launch Labs' website for more information on 1-MNA and other groundbreaking research initiatives. 
• Connect with us on social media and share your thoughts on this episode using the hashtag #1-MNA

 

Personalised Health Optimisation Consulting with Lisa Tamati

Lisa offers solution focused coaching sessions to help you find the right answers to your challenges.

Topics Lisa can help with: 

Lisa is a Genetics Practitioner, Health Optimisation Coach, High Performance and Mindset Coach.

She is a qualified Ph360 Epigenetics coach and a clinician with The DNA Company and has done years of research into brain rehabilitation, neurodegenerative diseases and biohacking.

She has extensive knowledge on such therapies as hyperbaric oxygen,  intravenous vitamin C, sports performance, functional genomics, Thyroid, Hormones, Cancer and much more. She can assist with all functional medicine testing.

Testing Options

• Comprehensive Thyroid testing

• DUTCH Hormone testing

• Adrenal Testing

• Organic Acid Testing

• Microbiome Testing

• Cell Blueprint Testing

• Epigenetics Testing

• DNA testing

• Basic Blood Test analysis

• Heavy Metals 

• Nutristat

• Omega 3 to 6 status

and more 

Lisa and her functional medicine colleagues in the practice can help you navigate the confusing world of health and medicine .

She can also advise on the latest research and where to get help if mainstream medicine hasn't got the answers you are searching for whatever the  challenge you are facing from cancer to gut issues, from depression and anxiety, weight loss issues, from head injuries to burn out to hormone optimisation to the latest in longevity science. Book your consultation with Lisa 

 

Join our Patron program and support the show

Pushing the Limits' has been free to air for over 8 years. Providing leading edge information to anyone who needs it. But we need help on our mission. 

Please join our patron community and get exclusive member benefits (more to roll out later this year) and support this educational platform for the price of a coffee or two

You can join by going to  Lisa's Patron Community

Or if you just want to support Lisa with a "coffee" go to 

https://www.buymeacoffee.com/LisaT to donate $3

 

Lisa’s Anti-Aging and Longevity Supplements 

Lisa has spent years curating a very specialized range of exclusive longevity, health optimizing supplements from leading scientists, researchers and companies all around the world. 

This is an unprecedented collection. The stuff Lisa wanted for her family but couldn't get in NZ that’s what it’s in her range. Lisa is constantly researching and interviewing the top scientists and researchers in the world to get you the best cutting edge supplements to optimize your life.

 

Subscribe to our popular Youtube channel 

with over 600 videos, millions of views, a number of full length documentaries, and much more. You don't want to miss out on all the great content on our Lisa's youtube channel.

Youtube

 

Order Lisa's Books

Lisa has published 5 books: Running Hot, Running to Extremes, Relentless, What your oncologist isn't telling you and her latest "Thriving on the Edge" 

Check them all out at 

https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books

 

Perfect Amino Supplement by Dr David Minkoff

Introducing PerfectAmino

• PerfectAmino is an amino acid supplement that is 99% utilized by the body to make protein.

• PerfectAmino is 3-6x the protein of other sources with almost no calories.

• 100% vegan and non-GMO.

• The coated PerfectAmino tablets are a slightly different shape and have a natural, non-GMO, certified organic vegan coating on them so they will glide down your throat easily.

• Fully absorbed within 20-30 minutes!

• No other form of protein comes close to PerfectAminos
  
  
  

Listen to the episode with Dr Minkoff here: 

 

Use code "tamati" at checkout to get a 10% discount on any of their devices.

 

Red Light Therapy:

Lisa is a huge fan of Red Light Therapy and runs a Hyperbaric and Red Light Therapy clinic. If you are wanting to get the best products try

Flexbeam: A wearable Red Light Device

https://recharge.health/product/flexbeam-aff/?ref=A9svb6YLz79r38

 

Or Try Vielights’ advanced Photobiomodulation Devices

Vielight brain photobiomodulation devices combine electrical engineering and neuroscience.

To find out more about photobiomodulation, current studies underway and already completed and for the devices mentioned in this video go to

www.vielight.com and use code “tamati” to get 10% off

 

 

Enjoyed This Podcast?

If you did, subscribe and share it with your friends!

If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review and share this with your family and friends.

Have any questions? You can contact my team through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

 To pushing the limits,

Lisa and team

In this weeks episode, we will have the part two of Dr. Mark Gordon's episode.

Dr. Gordon continues to shed light on how hormonal imbalances can exacerbate neuroinflammation, leading to prolonged recovery and chronic symptoms. We explore the importance of testing and optimizing hormones like growth hormone, IGF-1, IGF-BP3, estrogen, testosterone, DHEA, and pregnenolone to support brain health and recovery after traumatic and non traumatic brain injuries (TBI). Additionally, we delve into how environmental toxins and viruses can trigger or worsen neuroinflammation, impacting overall neurological health.

Key Discussion Points:

1. Understanding the Role of Hormones in Brain Health
- How hormones like growth hormone, IGF-1, and IGF-BP3 are involved in brain repair and neuroprotection.
- The connection between estrogen, testosterone, DHEA, and pregnenolone in maintaining cognitive function and mood stability.
- Why hormonal imbalances are common after brain injuries and how they contribute to prolonged neuroinflammation.

2. Growth Hormone and Brain Injuries
- The role of growth hormone in promoting neurogenesis and repairing neural tissues.
- How low levels of growth hormone can impede recovery from TBI and other brain injuries.
- Dr. Gordon's approach to assessing and optimizing growth hormone levels for brain health.

3. IGF-1 and IGF-BP3: Key Players in Neuroprotection
- How IGF-1 supports brain cell survival and reduces inflammation.
- The significance of IGF-BP3 in regulating IGF-1 activity and its therapeutic potential in TBI.
- Strategies for boosting IGF-1 levels naturally and through medical intervention.

4. The Impact of Sex Hormones on Brain Function
- Estrogen's neuroprotective effects and its role in reducing neuroinflammation.
- Testosterone's influence on brain health, cognition, and emotional regulation.
- The benefits of DHEA and pregnenolone in supporting adrenal function and overall hormonal balance.

5. Environmental Toxins, Viruses, and Neuroinflammation
- How exposure to environmental toxins can trigger or exacerbate neuroinflammation.
- The role of chronic viral infections in contributing to ongoing brain inflammation and hormonal dysregulation.
- Dr. Gordon's insights into detoxification strategies and immune support for reducing neuroinflammation.

6. Testing and Optimizing Hormones for Brain Health
- The importance of comprehensive hormonal testing in individuals with TBI or chronic neuroinflammation.
- Dr. Gordon's protocol for optimizing hormone levels to support brain recovery and cognitive function.
- How to work with healthcare providers to develop a personalized hormone optimization plan.
You can find out more about Dr Mark Gordon and his work and read his research at 
https://tbihelpnow.org/

 

BIO

 

Personalised Health Optimisation Consulting with Lisa Tamati

Lisa offers solution focused coaching sessions to help you find the right answers to your challenges.

Topics Lisa can help with: 

Lisa is a Genetics Practitioner, Health Optimisation Coach, High Performance and Mindset Coach.

She is a qualified Ph360 Epigenetics coach and a clinician with The DNA Company and has done years of research into brain rehabilitation, neurodegenerative diseases and biohacking.

She has extensive knowledge on such therapies as hyperbaric oxygen,  intravenous vitamin C, sports performance, functional genomics, Thyroid, Hormones, Cancer and much more. She can assist with all functional medicine testing.

Testing Options

• Comprehensive Thyroid testing

• DUTCH Hormone testing

• Adrenal Testing

• Organic Acid Testing

• Microbiome Testing

• Cell Blueprint Testing

• Epigenetics Testing

• DNA testing

• Basic Blood Test analysis

• Heavy Metals 

• Nutristat

• Omega 3 to 6 status

and more 

Lisa and her functional medicine colleagues in the practice can help you navigate the confusing world of health and medicine .

She can also advise on the latest research and where to get help if mainstream medicine hasn't got the answers you are searching for whatever the  challenge you are facing from cancer to gut issues, from depression and anxiety, weight loss issues, from head injuries to burn out to hormone optimisation to the latest in longevity science. Book your consultation with Lisa 

 

Join our Patron program and support the show

Pushing the Limits' has been free to air for over 8 years. Providing leading edge information to anyone who needs it. But we need help on our mission. 

Please join our patron community and get exclusive member benefits (more to roll out later this year) and support this educational platform for the price of a coffee or two

You can join by going to  Lisa's Patron Community

Or if you just want to support Lisa with a "coffee" go to 

https://www.buymeacoffee.com/LisaT to donate $3

 

Lisa’s Anti-Aging and Longevity Supplements 

Lisa has spent years curating a very specialized range of exclusive longevity, health optimizing supplements from leading scientists, researchers and companies all around the world. 

This is an unprecedented collection. The stuff Lisa wanted for her family but couldn't get in NZ that’s what it’s in her range. Lisa is constantly researching and interviewing the top scientists and researchers in the world to get you the best cutting edge supplements to optimize your life.

 

Subscribe to our popular Youtube channel 

with over 600 videos, millions of views, a number of full length documentaries, and much more. You don't want to miss out on all the great content on our Lisa's youtube channel.

Youtube

 

Order Lisa's Books

Lisa has published 5 books: Running Hot, Running to Extremes, Relentless, What your oncologist isn't telling you and her latest "Thriving on the Edge" 

Check them all out at 

https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books

 

Perfect Amino Supplement by Dr David Minkoff

Introducing PerfectAmino

• PerfectAmino is an amino acid supplement that is 99% utilized by the body to make protein.

• PerfectAmino is 3-6x the protein of other sources with almost no calories.

• 100% vegan and non-GMO.

• The coated PerfectAmino tablets are a slightly different shape and have a natural, non-GMO, certified organic vegan coating on them so they will glide down your throat easily.

• Fully absorbed within 20-30 minutes!

• No other form of protein comes close to PerfectAminos
  
  
  

Listen to the episode with Dr Minkoff here: 

 

Use code "tamati" at checkout to get a 10% discount on any of their devices.

 

Red Light Therapy:

Lisa is a huge fan of Red Light Therapy and runs a Hyperbaric and Red Light Therapy clinic. If you are wanting to get the best products try

Flexbeam: A wearable Red Light Device

https://recharge.health/product/flexbeam-aff/?ref=A9svb6YLz79r38

 

Or Try Vielights’ advanced Photobiomodulation Devices

Vielight brain photobiomodulation devices combine electrical engineering and neuroscience.

To find out more about photobiomodulation, current studies underway and already completed and for the devices mentioned in this video go to

www.vielight.com and use code “tamati” to get 10% off

 

 

Enjoyed This Podcast?

If you did, subscribe and share it with your friends!

If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review and share this with your family and friends.

Have any questions? You can contact my team through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

 To pushing the limits,

Lisa and team

In this week's episode I interview Dr Jason Han of Healthfit. Not only is Dr Han an incredible Physiotherapist and practitioner to the professional sports teams but he is an expert in Hyperbaric oxygen therapy and has seen first hand it's incredible impact. He shares how he got into after his mother in law suffered a traumatic brain injury and was suffering, with nothing working from a traditional medical point of view. In his desperation to help her he turned to Hyperbaric and never looked back, he then went on to use it with his athletes and his patients at his clinic.

Dr Han also shares his insights as a world class Taekwondo Athlete and what lessons he learned from his sport for daily life and his business.

Dr Han is also Head of North American Sales & Development for OneBase Health who help people effectively use hyperbaric oxygen therapy and works with Dr Scott Sherr, a world leading hyperbaric expert a previous guest on the show.
Listen to that episode here

You can reach out to Dr Han at www.onebasehealth.com 

BIO
Dr. Jason Han is a Physical Therapist specializing in Sports Rehabilitation and the CEO & Co-Founder of HealthFit, a multi-disciplinary facility in Pasadena, CA. HealthFit offers a range of services, including Physical Therapy, Chiropractic, Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy, and Red Light Therapy.

Dr. Han most recently served as the Head of Rehabilitation and Team Physical Therapist for the Los Angeles Football Club (LAFC) for their first six seasons. His extensive experience in professional sports also includes work with the NFL's Pittsburgh Steelers and Cirque du Soleil.

Currently, he is the Head of North American Sales & Development for OneBase Health, a technology and wellness company providing products such as Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy for both home and professional use.

Dr. Ha n has dedicated his life to optimizing his skills as a movement specialist and promoting health and wellness in his community. A former elite-level athlete, he was a 7-time US National Taekwondo Team member and has earned several world medals. He brings this wealth of experience into all aspects of his wellness journey.

 

 

Personalised Health Optimisation Consulting with Lisa Tamati

Lisa offers solution focused coaching sessions to help you find the right answers to your challenges.

Topics Lisa can help with: 

Lisa is a Genetics Practitioner, Health Optimisation Coach, High Performance and Mindset Coach.

She is a qualified Ph360 Epigenetics coach and a clinician with The DNA Company and has done years of research into brain rehabilitation, neurodegenerative diseases and biohacking.

She has extensive knowledge on such therapies as hyperbaric oxygen,  intravenous vitamin C, sports performance, functional genomics, Thyroid, Hormones, Cancer and much more. She can assist with all functional medicine testing.

Testing Options

• Comprehensive Thyroid testing

• DUTCH Hormone testing

• Adrenal Testing

• Organic Acid Testing

• Microbiome Testing

• Cell Blueprint Testing

• Epigenetics Testing

• DNA testing

• Basic Blood Test analysis

• Heavy Metals 

• Nutristat

• Omega 3 to 6 status

and more 

Lisa and her functional medicine colleagues in the practice can help you navigate the confusing world of health and medicine .

She can also advise on the latest research and where to get help if mainstream medicine hasn't got the answers you are searching for whatever the  challenge you are facing from cancer to gut issues, from depression and anxiety, weight loss issues, from head injuries to burn out to hormone optimisation to the latest in longevity science. Book your consultation with Lisa 

 

Join our Patron program and support the show

Pushing the Limits' has been free to air for over 8 years. Providing leading edge information to anyone who needs it. But we need help on our mission. 

Please join our patron community and get exclusive member benefits (more to roll out later this year) and support this educational platform for the price of a coffee or two

You can join by going to  Lisa's Patron Community

Or if you just want to support Lisa with a "coffee" go to 

https://www.buymeacoffee.com/LisaT to donate $3

 

Lisa’s Anti-Aging and Longevity Supplements 

Lisa has spent years curating a very specialized range of exclusive longevity, health optimizing supplements from leading scientists, researchers and companies all around the world. 

This is an unprecedented collection. The stuff Lisa wanted for her family but couldn't get in NZ that’s what it’s in her range. Lisa is constantly researching and interviewing the top scientists and researchers in the world to get you the best cutting edge supplements to optimize your life.

 

Subscribe to our popular Youtube channel 

with over 600 videos, millions of views, a number of full length documentaries, and much more. You don't want to miss out on all the great content on our Lisa's youtube channel.

Youtube

 

Order Lisa's Books

Lisa has published 5 books: Running Hot, Running to Extremes, Relentless, What your oncologist isn't telling you and her latest "Thriving on the Edge" 

Check them all out at 

https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books

 

Perfect Amino Supplement by Dr David Minkoff

Introducing PerfectAmino

• PerfectAmino is an amino acid supplement that is 99% utilized by the body to make protein.

• PerfectAmino is 3-6x the protein of other sources with almost no calories.

• 100% vegan and non-GMO.

• The coated PerfectAmino tablets are a slightly different shape and have a natural, non-GMO, certified organic vegan coating on them so they will glide down your throat easily.

• Fully absorbed within 20-30 minutes!

• No other form of protein comes close to PerfectAminos
  
  
  

Listen to the episode with Dr Minkoff here: 

 

Use code "tamati" at checkout to get a 10% discount on any of their devices.

 

Red Light Therapy:

Lisa is a huge fan of Red Light Therapy and runs a Hyperbaric and Red Light Therapy clinic. If you are wanting to get the best products try

Flexbeam: A wearable Red Light Device

https://recharge.health/product/flexbeam-aff/?ref=A9svb6YLz79r38

 

Or Try Vielights’ advanced Photobiomodulation Devices

Vielight brain photobiomodulation devices combine electrical engineering and neuroscience.

To find out more about photobiomodulation, current studies underway and already completed and for the devices mentioned in this video go to

www.vielight.com and use code “tamati” to get 10% off

 

 

Enjoyed This Podcast?

If you did, subscribe and share it with your friends!

If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review and share this with your family and friends.

Have any questions? You can contact my team through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

 To pushing the limits,

Lisa and team

In this episode, Alan Cash talks about oxaloacetate and the beginning of his journey in developing it as a nutritional supplement. He shares the ongoing research on oxaloacetate's benefits, especially for patients suffering from brain damage. He also dives into oxaloacetate's ability to increase muscle use before fatigue and reduce anxiety and depression levels in women experiencing PMS.

If you want to learn more about oxaloacetate's many benefits and applications, then this episode is for you!

Here are three reasons why you should listen to this episode:

1. Learn what oxaloacetate is and how it can help slow the biological effects of ageing.
2. Discover the numerous potential health benefits of oxaloacetate.
3. Get to know Alan’s journey in developing and manufacturing oxaloacetate as a nutritional supplement.

 

Episode Highlights [09:36] How Alan Found Out About Oxaloacetate

Alan got sick and needed to undergo brain surgery. He found out that his pain and illness were related to ageing.

As Alan researched more about ageing, he discovered calorie restriction, wherein organisms tend to live longer when they eat less.

Increasing the ratio of Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide (NAD) to NADH helps fight off ageing.

Alan started looking into biomechanical pathways and found that oxaloacetate that can change the ratio of NAD from NADH to 900% in just two minutes. He started testing oxaloacetate using worms and realised that the activated pathway was the same as calorie restriction.

[21:53] What is Oxaloacetate?

Oxaloacetate is a naturally occurring molecule in our bodies during metabolism. It exists in every cell of the body and, therefore, is non-toxic.

Oxaloacetate is considered a hot molecule right now, given how it can help moderate metabolism on a cell-by-cell basis. Increasing oxaloacetate affects metabolism, which is vital to some people.

[25:38] Patenting Oxaloacetate 

Tohoku University in Sendai, Japan, conducted research in the 1960s which found how oxaloacetate reduced fasting glucose levels in type one and type two diabetics. 

At first, Alan ran into the problem of being unable to get a patent for oxaloacetate, a naturally occurring compound in the human body. He persevered and eventually was able to own patent rights based on how oxaloacetate can maintain its stable form of enol-oxaloacetate. 

After rigorous testing, their products now have a shelf life of two to three years or more.

[31:00] Oxaloacetate and the Warburg Effect

Oxaloacetate is a potential drug for brain cancer such as glioblastoma. It also has the potential to reverse the Warburg effect, in which fermented glucose turns into lactate that a tumour feeds off.

Giving Oxaloacetate to cancer cells changes the cancer metabolism cell by cell. There’s a specific dosage where cancer cells stop reproducing.

[38:03] Oxaloacetate and Glutamate

Glutamate is a compound that fires off the neutrons in the brain. Excessive glutamate excites the neurons until they die, a process known as excitotoxicity. Many studies describe how we may reduce the risk of excitotoxicity. 

Alan is looking into cognition through clinical trials with Alzheimer’s disease patients. The study showed how oxaloacetate reduced glutamate levels. In the same clinical trial, they also found how oxaloacetate increased the amount of glucose the brain can take in.

The brain can take in more glucose due to the signalling protein PGC-1 Alpha enabling the production of more mitochondria.

[38:03] Oxaloacetate Can Improve Muscle Use

Oxaloacetate also improves muscle use by 10% more before it goes into fatigue. 10% is a significant improvement for both top-end athletes and daily living.

Alan has done a clinical trial that showed a 25% to 30% drop in fatigue levels within six weeks, even for people with chronic fatigue syndrome or ME/CFS for up to 30 years. NF-κB turns on genes that release a cytokine storm, which at high levels can lead to chronic inflammation seen in arthritis or long COVID patients.

Animal models show that oxaloacetate led to a reduction of NF-κB’s translocation to the nucleus by 70%, which turns off the cytokine storm. 

People experiencing chronic fatigue can benefit from oxaloacetate’s mechanism of producing new mitochondria. 

[51:34] Increase Focus and Attention Using Oxaloacetate

In animal models, oxaloacetate turns on the mechanism to increase the number of neurons in the brain and increase the length of the axons, the little tendrils that connect neurons.

Alan did a critical trial on the effect of oxaloacetate on premenstrual syndrome (PMS), wherein he found a 50% drop in anxiety, depression and suicide ideation.

Drugs have an immediate pharmacological effect. Another is the genomic effect with a cumulative property that takes about a month or more to see.

Even after getting better from your illnesses, keep the ball rolling and don’t stop intaking your medicine and supplements.

7 Powerful Quotes

‘We could see when we gave the oxaloacetate to them if they live longer, or if they didn't, so we could eliminate what were the critical genes. And, we were able to follow along with a pathway, and it turned out to be the exact same pathway as calorie restriction, which is really exciting.’

‘First of all, is oxaloacetate toxic? Well, it turns out it's a human molecule. It's in metabolism. It's in practically every cell of your body.’

‘Experiment and see what works and understanding some of these mechanisms is really important because then we can actually start to connect the dots of cells.’

‘The reality is most people are not going to have the perfect diet, not going to be in a perfect environment, can't maybe even afford to have great food, or organic food, or all of these things that restrict us from having the ideal.’

‘None of us are going to know what's around the corner for us but, if we can be in that preventative space and be understanding this more and more, then that is to me the most fascinating conversation we can have.’

‘What happens then is that they stop all their protocol, and the thing that they were doing and, “Now I'm fixed. I don't need it anymore.” And I'm like, “Hang on a minute, you don't drop the ball now. You're already underway. You got to stay underway. You got to keep it going.”’

‘You want that cumulative, and those epigenetic changes, and those long term changes.’

Resources

• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! 
• Oxaloacetate supplementation increases lifespan in Caenorhabditis elegans through an AMPK/FOXO-dependent pathway.
• Studies on Anti-diabetic Effect of Sodium Oxalcacetate
• Get benaGene Capsules containing oxaloacetate 
• Get TMG (Trimethylglycine) as the ultimate anti-aging combination with NMN 
• PerfectAmino Tablets by Bodyhealth
• Keto-Pro’s D-BHB Exogenous Ketones - Chocolate Flavour
• Keto-Pro’s Keto Bar - Chocolate Almond Brownie
• Colloidal Health’s Colloidal Silver
• Black Cumin Seed Oil
• Connect with Alan Cash: LinkedIn

About Alan

Alan Cash is a physicist, biologist and geologist. He's also a professional entrepreneur and the CEO and Founder of Terra Biological LLC and MetVital, Inc. 

Alan is also the clinical trials supervisor and medical researcher. He’s currently pursuing the advancement and development of nutritional supplements containing oxaloacetate, which is known as a caloric-restriction mimetic compound. His research has brought profound breakthroughs addressing cognitive decline and anti-aging.

If you want to reach out, you may connect with Alan via LinkedIn.

Personalised Health Optimisation Consulting with Lisa Tamati

Lisa offers solution focused coaching sessions to help you find the right answers to your challenges.

Topics Lisa can help with: 

Lisa is a Genetics Practitioner, Health Optimisation Coach, High Performance and Mindset Coach.

She is a qualified Ph360 Epigenetics coach and a clinician with The DNA Company and has done years of research into brain rehabilitation, neurodegenerative diseases and biohacking.

She has extensive knowledge on such therapies as hyperbaric oxygen,  intravenous vitamin C, sports performance, functional genomics, Thyroid, Hormones, Cancer and much more. She can assist with all functional medicine testing.

Testing Options

• Comprehensive Thyroid testing

• DUTCH Hormone testing

• Adrenal Testing

• Organic Acid Testing

• Microbiome Testing

• Cell Blueprint Testing

• Epigenetics Testing

• DNA testing

• Basic Blood Test analysis

• Heavy Metals 

• Nutristat

• Omega 3 to 6 status

and more 

Lisa and her functional medicine colleagues in the practice can help you navigate the confusing world of health and medicine .

She can also advise on the latest research and where to get help if mainstream medicine hasn't got the answers you are searching for whatever the  challenge you are facing from cancer to gut issues, from depression and anxiety, weight loss issues, from head injuries to burn out to hormone optimisation to the latest in longevity science. Book your consultation with Lisa 

 

Join our Patron program and support the show

Pushing the Limits' has been free to air for over 8 years. Providing leading edge information to anyone who needs it. But we need help on our mission. 

Please join our patron community and get exclusive member benefits (more to roll out later this year) and support this educational platform for the price of a coffee or two

You can join by going to  Lisa's Patron Community

Or if you just want to support Lisa with a "coffee" go to 

https://www.buymeacoffee.com/LisaT to donate $3

 

Lisa’s Anti-Aging and Longevity Supplements 

Lisa has spent years curating a very specialized range of exclusive longevity, health optimizing supplements from leading scientists, researchers and companies all around the world. 

This is an unprecedented collection. The stuff Lisa wanted for her family but couldn't get in NZ that’s what it’s in her range. Lisa is constantly researching and interviewing the top scientists and researchers in the world to get you the best cutting edge supplements to optimize your life.

 

Subscribe to our popular Youtube channel 

with over 600 videos, millions of views, a number of full length documentaries, and much more. You don't want to miss out on all the great content on our Lisa's youtube channel.

Youtube

 

Order Lisa's Books

Lisa has published 5 books: Running Hot, Running to Extremes, Relentless, What your oncologist isn't telling you and her latest "Thriving on the Edge" 

Check them all out at 

https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books

 

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Listen to the episode with Dr Minkoff here: 

 

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To pushing the limits,

Lisa

We are regularly exposed to toxic heavy metals, from uranium used in war weapons to lead in our food, burning coal and even vaccines. Exposure to these toxins leads to a lot of fatal diseases, such as cancer. How does our detox system flush them out, and what is the role of amino acids in it?

Dr David Minkoff joins us in this episode to explain how heavy metals harm us and how to detoxify our bodies. He also talks about the role heavy metals play in the formation of cancer, the importance of amino acids in our body and why not all proteins are created equal.

If you want to know more about the science behind heavy metal detoxing amino acids and protein, then this episode is for you. 

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My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/

 

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Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. You will learn about heavy metal detoxing and safe ways to do it.
2. Discover how environmental influences and toxins lead to cancer.
3. Learn more about the impacts of being deficient in amino acids in protein.

 

Resources

• Visit LifeWorks Wellness Center to learn more about natural medicine.
• Metal-Free from BodyHealth
• If you live in Australia, get BodyHealth products such as PerfectAmino, Body Detox Oral Spray, Full Spectrum Digestive Support and more from Stoneagehealth. Email lisa@lisatamati.com for products if you live outside Australia.
• The Search for the Perfect Protein by Dr David Minkoff

 

Episode Highlights [06:28] How Dr Minkoff's Story Started

• Dr Minkoff did triathlons and was interested in performance and health. 
• His wife, a nurse, investigated the mercury in the amalgam fillings in her teeth. 
• Mercury is volatile and is liquid at room temperature. It is very toxic and can make you sick when aerosolised.
• Dr Minkoff's wife went to a dentist to get her fillings removed. The mercury aerosolised, and she began showing symptoms of mercury toxicity.
• His neighbour practised natural dentistry and referred him to a doctor in Seattle. After undergoing the advised detoxification protocols, his wife got better.

[17:32] How Can We Get Ourselves Detoxified?

• The body keeps an electrical balance.
• If you want to detoxify, the mineral balance in your body has to be good.
• The body will hold on to toxic metals and will not detoxify well if there is magnesium, zinc and selenium depletion.
• The amino acid levels in your blood should also be good because all detox systems are based on amino acids.
• If the liver is not healthy, a chelator or binder might move the heavy metal to another critical organ, such as the brain.

[22:14] What Are Safe Ways to Get Detoxified?

• Chlorella is a good chelator. It helps bind the mercury in food and has nutritional contents such as chlorophyll. 
• Activated charcoal is a binder you can use as a substitute for chlorella.

[24:53] How Does Heavy Metal Exposure Lead to Cancer?

• A healthy cell makes energy by taking oxygen and food into the mitochondria. It extracts energy from food and produces energy molecules (ATP) for the survival of the cell.
• When drugs, chemicals or infections get into the mitochondria, it cannot use oxygen to make energy.
• When a cell makes energy anaerobically, it generates only minimal amounts of ATP. In this case, the cell will either die or transform. 
• Growth factor genes are turned on to get a lot of sugar into the cell and make lots of ATP. 
• Anti-cancer strategies are working on blocking transport or utilisation of sugar in the cell.

[33:01] What Can We Do to Prevent Cancer?

• Cells turn cancerous due to heavy metal and toxin exposure, as well as poor food practices.
• Consuming ‘clean’ or organic food is essential.
• Vitamin D is the best anti-cancer drug.
• Sunlight hitting the body will activate vitamin D.
• Glyphosate, a herbicide, blocks the process of conversion needed to activate vitamin D.

[38:20] What’s Vitamin D Got to Do with Cancer?

• Vitamin D functions for immunity. It is more of a hormone than a vitamin.
• High levels of vitamin D lowers the risk of multiple sclerosis, cancer, osteoporosis and hypertension.
• Vitamin D is not the be-all and end-all of cancer prevention. Low levels of selenium, vitamin A, zinc and amino acid can also cause cancer.
• When you get enough nutrition, you have more resilience against toxic factors.

[41:11] What Is the Importance of Amino Acids in Protein?

• Our bodies are made up of macronutrients: carbohydrates, fats and proteins. 
• Amino acids are the basic unit of proteins, and they are made up of nitrogen.
• There are 22 amino acids in the body, eight of which are essential. It means the body cannot produce them, so you need to obtain them from your diet.
• Almost everybody has low levels of amino acids. A lack of amino acids will result in a lack of protein.
• Specific body processes cannot work if there is an amino acid deficiency. Listen to the full episode to learn how it affects body repair, weight loss, immunity and athletic performance!

[1:05:11] Why Are Acid Blockers Harmful?

• Pepsin is an enzyme in the stomach that initiates protein digestion. The stomach needs to be very acidic to activate pepsin.
• If a drug blocks stomach acid production, the pepsin won’t be activated.
• You won't get the benefit from the proteins you are eating and absorb key minerals if you can’t digest protein.
• Stomach acid also kills the bacteria in the food we eat, especially raw food.
• If bacteria in food doesn't get killed in the stomach, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth can occur.
• Listen to the full episode for more information on how you can improve your health amid the heavy metals in our environment!

 

7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode

‘The search for the perfect protein was really my search for what is the perfect thing that works better than meat and fish and eggs by a factor of at least three to six times that you could take as a supplement’.

‘Medicine is not the answer. Lifestyle’s the answer. That's nutrition, and it's what you said. It's sleep, and it's relationships, and it's good nutrition, and it's organic food, and it's sunshine, and it's finding what makes you happy and the purpose. Without those things, you drugs aren't going to fix you’.

‘I think we do need appropriate supplementation, good organic food and good exercise. Good sleep patterns — all those basic things that we often also neglect to have a healthy human’.

‘You've got a bleeding ulcer? Okay, take the acid blocker. Your stomach heals. But then figure out what happened — was it an infection — or what was wrong and get off of it because long-term, it's bad for you’.

‘The more we buy the things that aren't good for us, the more we support the industries that are doing things that aren't good for us’.

‘You're going to pay. You're just choosing to pay later and down the track with worse consequences, or you're paying to be preventative. You're paying for good health’.

‘You have to be able to orient your life toward nutrition and supplementation and detoxification and healthy living’.

 

About Dr Minkoff

In 1995, Dr David Minkoff’s wife became ill. Not accepting her physicians’ ‘We really can’t help her except for symptomatic medication’ conclusion, Dr Minkoff and his wife went on a search to find the actual underlying cause of her condition. This led him out of his emergency medicine practice and into complementary and alternative medicine to find the answers. 

In the process, he gained expertise in fields like anti-aging medicine, integrative cancer care, Lyme disease treatment, hormone replacement therapy, functional medicine, energy medicine, homeopathy and optimum nutrition.

The answers he found were soon in demand when others learned of his wife’s return to good health. In response to this, he and his wife, Sue Minkoff, RN, established LifeWorks Wellness Center in 1997. 

It quickly became one of the largest comprehensive complementary and alternative medicine clinics in the US. The demand for the products and protocols he discovered became a catalyst for founding BodyHealth.com, a nutrition company that manufactures and distributes these cutting-edge solutions.

Dr Minkoff is a doctor of complementary and alternative medicine, a board-certified pediatrician and an Infectious Disease fellow. He also is an avid athlete himself and has completed 43 Ironman Triathlons. Dr Minkoff has helped many pro athletes improve their performance. He tries to set an example for others so that they can enjoy a life free of pain and full of energy.

If you want to learn more about Dr Minkoff and his work on proteins, you may visit his website. 

 

Link to the Perfectaminos tablets by Dr Minkoff. Buy them here:   https://www.optimoz.com.au/products/map-master-amino-acid-pattern?aff=62   To the Perfectamino powder  https://www.optimoz.com.au/products/map-amino-acid-xp-powder?aff=62   Link to the electrolytes mentioned in the podcast    https://www.optimoz.com.au/products/perfectamino-electrolytes?aff=62

 

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Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can include more amino acids in protein in their diet.

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For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

To pushing the limits,

Lisa

 

Full Transcript

Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.

Lisa Timati: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Pushing the Limits. This week I have a fabulous interview. Gosh, it was great. It was a long one. And it's a really, really good one, with Dr David Minkoff, who is just an absolute legend. He is the author of the book The Search for the Perfect Protein. And this is all about amino acids, how your body utilises proteins, why you're probably protein deficient, all the diseases and ailments that it can help with and getting the right combination and explains just stuff that would absolutely blow your mind. It's an amazing book that's really changed the way I look at amino acids for sure and integrating them in my life.

Now, Dr Minkoff is also the founder of the LifeWorks Wellness Centre. He has a huge practice in Florida, in the USA, with over 50 staff, and he does complementary and alternative medicine. And he's an expert who has worked with many of the world's top athletes. He is himself a finisher of 43 Ironmans, including eight Hawaiian Ironmans. He is, I think, 70 years old or— and he’s still doing Ironmans. He's got another one coming up in a couple of weeks. So just an incredible man, both from an athletic point of view and from a medical point of view and is an author and speaker on these really important topics. 

In the show we get into heavy metal detoxing, we get into the science behind dealing with cancer, we look at amino acids, we look at toxic environment and we look at the state of our medical world, all of these issues we get into with this really in-depth conversation. So, I hope you do enjoy it.

Before we head over to Dr Minkoff, just want to remind you, please give us a rating and review on the show, if you haven't already. And make sure you subscribe. You can always reach out to me at lisa@lisatimati.com, if you've got any questions that come up from these episodes, or you want some advice on a certain topic around what we've been discussing, then please reach out to us. And give us a feedback on the podcast as well.

And if you enjoy the content, please share it with your friends and family. It's only through networks and people—ground level movements are people sharing good information—that we can get this sort of stuff out into the world, this great information that we'd love to share. 

Finally, I just want to let you know I'm taking on a small number of clients on one-on-one at the moment with consulting around health with that right mindset, if you've got a health journey that you're on, if you're struggling, if you need help navigating your health, then please reach out to me. I have a huge knowledge base and a huge network of people that I can see you to.

If you're needing help, and you can't work out, if you've got a medical problem where you can't work it out in the normal system and you don't know where to turn to please knock on our door, we might be able to help you. Obviously got a huge background in brain injuries, but also in biohacking in general and health optimisation as well as the whole mindset piece of the puzzle which I love sharing and teaching as well. 

So, I work with only a very few people at a time because I like to be able to invest time with people and my brain gets occupied with just a few cases, because I tend to go off and if I don't know something, I will go and find it. So, I don't profess to know everything in the world, but I usually know someone who does. So, if you want to work with me, then please reach out. 

And the last thing also we are holding every week a webinar either it's on epigenetics one week in on it and the second week it will be on our running programs and how to increase your running speed, how to improve your performance, how to do all that without avoiding injuries and burnout. So, if you want to join us for our webinars for the epigenetics webinar, go to epigenetics.lisatimati.com. That's epigenetics.lisatamati.com and register there for the free webinar. It'll be on a Tuesday in New Zealand time 12:30 and the alternate weeks we're doing it at the same time Tuesday 12:30 New Zealand time for our running masterclass, how to run faster, longer be stronger without burnout and injuries. 

So, without further ado, over to the show with Dr David Minkoff.

Lisa: Welcome to the show everybody. I am super excited. I'm jumping out of my skin. I've got Dr David Minkoff, who is one of my role models and heroes, and I'm finally got him on my show. And I'm very, very excited to have you, Dr David. 

You're sitting in Florida, and you are an Ironman athlete. Let's start there for starters. You've done 43 Ironmans and you're about to do your 44th. And you've actually been to New Zealand, we just discussed your time in New Zealand and it rained a lot, unfortunately.

Dr David Minkoff: The cold was worse than the rain. 

Lisa: The cold. Yes. Lake Taupo, for example, can be very, very cold, the water’s just absolutely freezing. But yes. 

So, Dr Dr Minkoff, you have an amazing reputation and you’ve recently written a book called The Search for the Perfect Protein, that for me was an absolute game changer and a real eye opener. And something—as an athlete, I think, unfortunately, I've sort of finished my competitive career now. But if I'd known that information 20 years ago, oh my gosh, what could I've done? Sort of information. So, I'm really, really keen to share a little bit about the book and your background. 

But let's start firstly with your story, your life story. You were an emergency physician. Can you pick up the story there and just tell us how you got into what you're actually doing now?

Dr David: Yes, so I didn't really—I was doing triathlons and I was interested in performance and health. But it was sort of a crude viewpoint. My wife's a nurse, and she was always investigating things. And one of the things that she investigated was that she had a lot of mercury amalgam fillings in her teeth. And she learned that the mercury is volatile. Mercury at room temperature is a liquid. Like no other metal is a liquid at room temperature. Like lava, you got to heat it up to a couple thousand degrees, but mercury boils at only 110 degrees Fahrenheit. So hot cup of coffee or soup would be like 140, 150, 160. And it's an amalgam. 

So, what they do is they take liquid mercury, and they add to a zinc, silver, copper. And so, it's—the things aren't really amalgamated together. They're separate things that bond. So, if you add heat, Mercury can aerosolise if it's hot, and it will come off. And there are lots of studies in, they put fillings in sheep, and just with their chewing, the mercury gets volatile and it gets in the air and they swallow it, they breathe it. And then they sacrifice them three months later, and they find the Mercury's in their kidneys, it’s in their brain, and it's all over the place. 

And Mercury is very toxic. You took one amalgam filling, so, it's about a half a gram of mercury. And you put it in a 10-acre lake, like you grounded up real fine so that you dissolved it in a 10-acre lake. And the natural resources guy came, the Fish and Wildlife Association came to test the levels of mercury in the water. They would put a fish advisory on it, like you can't eat the fish in that lake, the Mercury concentration’s too high because it would be toxic to humans. 

Lisa: And that's one filling. 

Dr David: So, one filling in 10 acres. 

Lisa: It’s equivalent to one filling. 

Dr David: Now the square meters of a body is maybe one square meter, it's not very—one and a half. It isn't very much. So, you get these things coming off constantly. And the more you have, the more load you will get, and they can make you sick. 

So, she decided that she wanted to get them out. And this was back in the middle 90s, and the dentist that she went to wasn't really proficient in doing this. And he said, ‘Sure, I'll take him out’, and he takes a high-speed drill, and he drills him out and he aerosolises it all over the place with no protection for her. And it went all over the place. 

Now, subsequent to that, she'd started to feel bad. She got problems with her thyroid and problems with her liver and the doctors who saw her thought that she was at some kind of an autoimmune condition. But they didn't associate it with mercury. I didn't either. And they just thought, they didn't know what to do with her. She's a nurse. She's smart. She's a triathlete as well. And then eventually, it got to the point where one day she woke up and she had trouble lifting her arm, and her glute muscle was weak. And it looked like she had some neurological involvement. One of the doctors thought, ‘Well, maybe this is a mess’. And we didn't know what to do.

She's a nurse and she has a home healthcare nursing business. And next door, a guy moved in. And the marquee said, ‘Natural Dentistry’. And one day when I was going to pick her up from work, he was walking out of his office to his car, and I stopped him and I introduced myself. And I asked him, ‘What is natural dentistry’? And he said, ‘Well, we're dentists that believe that the mouth is actually part of the body’. It's not a separate thing. And that you shouldn't do things in the mouth that you wouldn't do any place else. He says, ‘For example, you'd never use mercury in a wound yet’, or for a while there used to have this stuff called mercurial, which was mercury liquid, but they found that the mercury—if you were putting it on a wound, it's a good disinfectant but it also will get you mercury toxic. They used to put thimerosal, which is ethyl mercury in your contact lens solutions. 

Lisa: Oh, my God!

Dr David: But they took it out because they found that you could put this stuff in your eyes, and you could get toxic from the mercury that's in the solution. So, he said, ‘We wouldn't do that’. And then he told me about some other things, and I said, ‘Well listen to this story’. So, I tell him her story. And he says, ‘Oh, she's mercury toxic’? 

Lisa: Oh, well...

Dr David: And he said, ‘There’s no one in this town that's going to help you because nobody knows about this, or they're just not aware of it. But there's a doctor in Seattle, and he trains doctors in diagnosing and treating this with a natural kind of approach’. 

So, I flew to Seattle, I spent some time with him, I learned his methodology. And I came back and tested her and she indeed was mercury toxic. And I did the protocols that he taught me, and she got better. 

Lisa: Wow. 

Dr David: Over four or five months, she got better and her symptoms went away. She was fine. 

Lisa: No MS, no all the other things started to disappear when she started to—So what are the some of the... 

Dr David: Wait Let me just look. Let me just take it one more step. 

So, then we had friends that were sort of watching this whole thing happen. And they said, ‘You know, I've got migraine headaches, and I've got rheumatoid arthritis, and I've got all cervical, I've got that. Will you help me’?

The emergency room work is shift work. So, it's a seven in the morning till seven at night or seven at night to seven in the morning, three days a week, maybe four. And I had some time and she had an extra office in her nursing business. And so, I said, ‘I'll be there Thursday afternoon, why don't you come in? I've got a success of one. I'm not sure I know what I'm doing. This will be—we'll just play, we'll just see what happens’.

Anyway, it started to work. And pretty soon it was I was being inundated when we renovated a space next to her office, 3000 square feet and we set up shop as a natural medicine clinic and I got out of the emergency room. And we got to be very busy with all these kinds of things. 

Lisa: Wow. 

Dr David: Oh, that was 1997. And here, 20 years later, now we have a huge clinic, lots of bright, 50 staff and people come from all over the world for—most of its chronic medical problems. They have cancer or Lyme disease or chronic fatigue or MS or Parkinson's or—they've been around the block. Many doctors, no solutions. So that's mostly what we do now.  Occasionally, I saw a couple professional football players today but mostly it's... 

Lisa: It's very sick people. So, I just wish you went down the road from where I live and I can come and get the help that... Because your approach—I mean, I've listened to everything that you've got out there and your approach just resonates completely with me. You've gone into the function where natural medicines and you're dealing with people with chronic diseases. 

So, just following on now from the mercury story and how you helped your wife and then onwards. Heavy metals are a big problem in our world, aren't they? How do we get exposure? Okay, amalgams obviously in fillings, but I don't think people understand that there's mercury, cadmium, arsenic, thallium—goodness knows what else. There's lots of things that we can be... 

Dr David: Lead, aluminum. 

Lisa: Lead, aluminum, yes. We're being exposed to toxins and heavy metals, 24/7, and now horrible environment that we're creating for ourselves and our modern world. And our bodies just weren't made for this. were they? 

Dr David: That’s right. That's right. I mean, you look at Fukushima, the amount of—I mean uranium is a heavy metal to heavy, it's one of the heaviest metals. So, you got scads of this released into the ocean and into the air, it flows around. When the Iraq War was going on, they used uranium depleted warheads because they were making tanks that regular warheads wouldn't penetrate. 

But if you put a depleted uranium warhead on that missile, when that thing hit the tank, the temperatures were so hot that it would penetrate the tank. And so there was— I don't know how many, thousands and thousands of pounds of these things were scattered all over Iraq through two wars, which released a lot of uranium and a fair number of—I know, at least American soldiers started getting heavy metal toxicity and when they were tested, they had high levels of uranium in their body. 

So, it is all over and we have sort of dumped this onto the planet, leaded gasoline on the planet for 50 or 60 years saturated the countryside. So, vegetables grown have high lead levels, and it's in the ocean. So, most fish have lots of mercury. And we—our bodies are exposed to it. And we absorb it, we breathe it, cold burning produces a lot of mercury, unless it's filtered right. Some vaccines still have mercury. 

Lisa: Do they still have mercury in them? In the time when they’re sold? 

Dr David: Yes! So... 

Lisa: Yes. And we're giving this to our children and we’re wondering why the heck they've got autism and ADHD and cancers and things that can be a knock on. It's very hard to correlate this but I heard in one of your talks, you were talking, I think, back when you're a young doctor, there was like 1 in 250,000 kids had autism or some great number. And now it was like 1 in 40 or something ridiculous. 

We're doing something massively wrong in our environment. And we seem to just bumble along as if everything's fine. And yet, we've got all these chronic diseases that are knock offs, or knock-ons from all of these things and the toxicity that we're involved with. 

So how can we—if we're looking at the heavy metal situation, if we don't have access to you, because we don't live in America, and we can't come to Florida, which is a real shame. How do we get ourselves detoxified from some of these heavy metals? Or how can we test for it? 

Dr David: So I think, to detox someone from heavy metals, it's really important that you make sure that they're in a position where they can be detoxified. So, the body tries to keep electrical balance, you have to have as many negatives as you have positives. 

Many people are mineral depleted, they don't have enough magnesium, or zinc, or selenium. Okay? And so those are all positively charged metals, like its mercury and lead. And if you get someone who's depleted in these things, and then you try to detoxify them, some of the things that are holding on, that the body's holding on to, will be the bad heavy metals, if it doesn't have the good minerals in those places. And so, the body doesn't detoxify very well when you try to pull it off when it's mineral depleted. So, you have to make sure that they're mineral good. You have to make sure that their gut is good, they're not full of parasites, and mercury, and yeast, and bad digestion. And because then they have a hard time. 

They have to make sure that their amino acid levels in their blood are okay because if they're not okay, all the detox systems are based on amino acids. And so, if you don't have that sort of ready and waiting, you can get into trouble. You can try to move a metal, which the body is stuck somewhere that it feels is relatively safe. It's in the fat somewhere. It's at the periphery of an organ, and it isn't really causing toxicity. 

But then if you give a binder, like a chelator, when these things bind heavy metals, and you pull it off of there. And it gets to the person's liver and the livers already overloaded with the plastics and the Tylenol and the rest of the stuff they’re taking... 

Lisa: Yes, the crap we’re taking. 

Dr David: It won't move it out. And it will circulate around and it can end up someplace worse. 

Lisa: Like your brain or your heart.

Dr David: Like I had a patient here not too long ago, she went to a doctor. He did a test on heavy metals for her, she was indeed very high in lead. But he didn't understand that you have to set them up—their hormones, their gut, their nutrients have to be sufficient so that you can detoxify them, and she wasn't set up. And so he put her in an IV room and he gave her an IV medicine, which will bind lead. And she ended up pretty much—I don't know if you have that expression in New Zealand — she's a bag lady. Like she wears earphones, she listened to religious music, she carried two paper bags around, and she was really like, totally out of it. 

And she had been one of the most successful realtors in the area. And she turned into someone that couldn't even really take care of herself, talks to herself, and she was—her brain, the lead in her bones got transferred to her brain. 

Lisa: Oh my gosh. 

Dr David: And it took us a couple years to get her to the point where we could get the lead out of her brain and that she could actually wake up and get normal. But it was a medical error at the original time. 

Lisa: And this is very, a dangerous—like because it would be EDTA IV, wouldn't it?

Dr David: Right. Right. 

Lisa: Because I've got a case. So, my mum who had an aneurysm four years ago, and I've rehabilitated her back from massive brain injury to being now completely normal. And I've written a book on it, called Relentless, which I'll send you a copy of. And one of the things that I identified was mercury poisoning. And I've been too scared, though, to go and get EDTA chelation in her case because she's a 79-year-old with fatty liver disease, kidney. 

So, for someone like, who doesn't have a doctor who is a real expert in the area, to do something like this, I can sit her body up the best I can with the right vitamins and the right minerals, and selenium and zinc and things and vitamin Ds and all of those things that are have here on. Is there any—and vitamin C is a big player. 

Is there anything that I can give her without—obviously, you don't want to do something like that and cause a really, a big detox reaction. And with someone who's fragile should say, is there a safe way of doing it? 

Dr David: An easy thing, chlorella is a pretty good chelator.

Lisa: Oh, brilliant. I had her on that. 

Dr David: Chlorella. So, you could add like, three, four capsules of chlorella with each meal. 

Lisa: Wow. Okay. 

Dr David: It will help find the mercury that's in the food. And it's not really absorbed. And the chlorophyll in there is good for her and you can just start to tease it out with that 

Lisa: Very smart.

Dr David: There is a product called Metal-Free—I have a nutrition company—that we make, it's called Metal-Free. It's very safe, it's natural. It's a spray. So, you can start with a little bit, and in someone like her, start with just one spray underneath her tongue once a day. Do it for a week or 10 days, she's doing okay, she’s not getting sick with it, she's tolerating it. Okay, you could go to two sprays. And you could just tease it up, where it's done slowly, over six to 12 months. You can use that with the chlorella. You can get her to get the heavy metal start coming out. And that's very workable, and a lot of people do that.

Lisa: What about activated charcoal? Is it another good chelator? Or is it... 

Dr David: Charcoal? It would be a substitute for chlorella. It's a binder. 

Lisa: It’s one or the other.

Dr David: Yes, I think the chlorella is better because there is some nutritional content. Charcoal just binds sort of randomly everything. Whereas with chlorella...

Lisa: Yes, you can get mineral deficiencies too if you have too much of, say activated charcoal, couldn't you? 

Dr David: Right. 

Lisa: Yes. Okay, that's a really good sort of framework. And I'll link to Dr Minkoff’s website, everyone, so it's bodyhealth.com. And I'll put that in the show notes in the links to those particular products, because I think, you know, there'll be good, safe ways for people who don't have access to a doctor that can do it really safely to start to detoxify themselves. 

So, I wanted to move now a little bit. So that's some heavy metal and we touched on it pretty briefly, but it's a major, major problem in—when we're looking at lots of other diseases, the heavy metal can have a massive impact can’t it? So things like MS or Parkinson's or cancers. I heard in one of your interviews saying, on Ben Greenfield's podcasts, many of the cancer patients that you see or most of them have a heavy metal problem, and there's probably a correlation there. 

Is it, if we move the discussion towards cancer, would that be one of the first places that you would look for a cancer patient?

Dr David: What happens with cancer and this, this has been known since the 1920s and 30s— a German doctor named Otto Warburg was looking at the biochemistry of what makes a cancer cell different than a healthy cell, or what causes a cancer cell to transform—I mean, a healthy cell to transform into a cancer cell. 

And what he discovered is that a healthy cell makes energy by taking the oxygen that you breathe, which eventually gets to the cell and the food that you eat. And those two things go into the little factory in the cell called the mitochondria. And the cell is able to extract the energy from the food and make ATP, which is the energy product particle. And then the cell can live, it can do its job, it can get in nutrients, it can get rid of toxins, it can make proteins, depending on what its job is. 

Because the impact of toxins and infections are around us all the time, and now they're at levels that are unheard of. And I think 80 something thousand chemicals in the environment, which have never been tested for safety, and heavy metals, and many people are on many different kinds of medications, which are just different kinds of toxins, really. I mean, an emergency someone might need a medicine, but there’s a long-term solution to a health problem, it's really  not the best way to go.

Lisa: Absolutely. 

Dr David: And so there are lot of environmental influences, which can—when those drugs or chemicals or infections get into the mitochondria in the cell, lock that mitochondria from being able to use oxygen and food to make energy. And that cell then, when it can't make ATP in enough quantity because when you use oxygen, it can make 38 of these energy particles, each go around. It can also make energy not using oxygen. So that's called anaerobic metabolism,

Lisa: It’s the fermentation, yes.

Dr David: No oxygen. It’s fermentation. You only make two ATPs. It can't live on two ATPs. So, it's got to change it either is going to die or it's going to change. And then if it changes... 

Lisa: Does it turn on the oncogenes?

Dr David: It turns, yes, and I don't even really think they're oncogenes. These are normal genes that in a foetus make one cell into a 100 trillion in a full adult. They’re your growth factor genes. They're blood vessel factor genes. And they turn on in an adult person, they're supposed to be on, but they get turned on because this cell now needs lots, and it's the preferred fuel for that cell ends up being sugar. And so, it needs to get a lot of sugar because if it can only make two ATPs on every go around, it's got to be able to get way more sugar in that cell in order to get enough ATP so that it can live. And that's what cancer is.

Lisa: And this is why people with cancer then have these cravings for sugar. And lose a lot of weight very quickly because they're not able to produce and they’re extremely fatigued. 

Dr David: Well, they have a very high need for sugar, they have a very high need for sugar. And one of the strategies—the anti-cancer strategies—is to not give them any sugar. Because our own cells could use fat, they can use proteins, but cancer cells prefer sugar. 

So, there's a standard medical test done for cancer patients, which is to give them—it’s what is called a PET scan. And the PET scan is sugar IV. Sugar has a radioactive label on it and you can see where does the sugar go. And if let's say a woman's got a breast cancer, the normal cells are eating one unit of sugar and the breast cancer cells are using 25 units of sugar. So, the PET scan shows a 25 where the lump is and it shows a one in the arm, in the brain, and the other breast, or in the kidney, where there's no cancer, because this thing is so rapidly using the sugar that it sucks it up. Well, sometimes that's five times, sometimes it's 10 times, sometimes it's 20 times. The more aggressive the cancer, the higher the metabolism, and the higher the reading on the PET scan. So that tells you what the cancers do and what it's eating. 

And then anti-cancer strategies have to be to figure out, can we block that guy from getting sugar or utilising sugar because otherwise it's going to use it and it's going to replicate it, it's going to make more of itself. And then you really you... 

Lisa: And I've just done a series actually on in vitamin C, with a number of researchers and scientists, doctors, around intravenous vitamin C. Because I recently had a case with my father who unfortunately passed away in July, with sepsis and I was battling to get intravenous vitamin C for him in the ICU, and I was unable to, they wouldn't let me. Unfortunately. I did win in the end, but by then the sepsis was multiple organ failure and too little too late.

And so, I'm on a bit of a crusade now to get that changed and in support the doctors and scientists that are screaming from the rooftops that we should be using vitamin C, not only for sepsis, but also for things like COVID, there's lots of studies going on, in cancer. 

And one of the researchers that I had on last two weeks ago, Professor Margreet Vissers, she has done a lot of study around cancer, vitamin C. And getting the vitamin C—the molecule of vitamin C is very similar to glucose, so the cancer cells can take it up and thinking it's glucose. And if we can get the levels—I think the levels were from memory 350 to 400 micromolar—it can get in there and it can actually kill the cancer cell. Don't quote me on those numbers, people, but listen to the episodes. But it can also stop the tumour growth, the health sector from being switched on that turns that gene off so that the tumour can’t develop its own blood supply. So, I know that that's a really, really powerful intervention for cancers. It's not the obviously the only one. 

Keto diet is another, as we mentioned, starving the cancer cells off from the glucose and having that in combination with things like vitamin C. What else is—so that cancers are tuning on these cancer genes, if you like, or these cells are turning cancerous, probably because of our environment, probably because of heavy metals, toxins, bad foods, our food practices, all of these things are making kids a little sort of skyrocket, what can we do to prevent ourselves? I mean, vitamin C is obviously one that I'm big on as a prevention. What else can we do? We can do the heavy metal detoxing in a controlled manner as we spoke about. What else can we do for cancer prevention? Because I'm always about the prevention side.

Dr David: Okay. So, I mean, clean food, organic, super important. The actual best anti-cancer drug is vitamin D. 

Lisa: Vitamin D? 

Dr David: Yes, there are lots of studies that show that people who have a blood level of vitamin D, between 70 and 90, have half the rates of cancer that people have low vitamin D level, there's no known drug, or medical intervention, or anything known that is that effective. 

So, if someone's listening to this, and you don't know what your blood level of vitamin D is, you should go to your doctor or your laboratory and you should get a blood level vitamin D. The levels in America run 30 to 100 is considered normal. In the studies that have been done, if the level is between 70 and 90, in America, for the average person, that means that they're going to be taking about 10,000 units a day of vitamin D3

Lisa: Wow, that's a lot. That's high. Okay, there's no toxicity with that sort of a level of vitamin D? 

Dr David: Well, you have to measure it. I mean, at that level, that's the average person that I see. If I put them on 5000, they're running in the 40s. If I put them out on ten thousand, they're running in the, I want them 70 to 90-ish. If they're 65, I'll leave them alone. If they're 95, it's fine. 

It's very interesting, because the way you're supposed to get vitamin D isn’t to take it with a capsule, you’re supposed to get it from sunlight. And sunlight hitting the body will convert the molecule into vitamin D and that's how we're supposed to get it. Unfortunately, now, and I think the reason is glyphosate on the planet? 

So I'm in Florida, there's 300 days a year of sunshine, we're in a subtropical climate. So, the sun is high enough for most of the year, where the sun should be effective at converting our bodies to make vitamin D. I have tested vitamin D levels, and every patient I have seen for the last 20 years, except for one person, and she was using a tanning bed every day, except for one person, everyone else had a sub therapeutic level of vitamin D. And we’re in Florida, and there's sunshine. Now some people wear sunscreen and then the vitamin D doesn't get converted. But a lot of people don't wear sunscreen and the vitamin D does convert. 

Now my own example. So, I am about 12 hours a week outside in the sun unprotected. I swim in an outdoor pool at noon. I ride my bike a lot. I'm outside. And I run a lot, usually without a shirt if it's warm and shorts, so I'm exposed. My vitamin D level unsupplemented is 34.

Lisa: Wow, that's shocking.

Dr David: I have to take 12,500 units every day to keep my level—last time I did it, it was 84. Now this is my theory on this: is this herbicide glyphosate roundup... 

Lisa: Hmm, horrible. 

Dr David: ...is so prevalent around the world. Something like three quarters of the rain samples will show glyphosate. I have measured thousands of patients for urine levels of glyphosate. I've never tested anyone who is negative for glyphosate. 

Lisa: Gosh. That’s shocking. 

Dr David: Like never. It’s in our food, it's in our water. We're getting it. And one of the side effects of glyphosate is it blocks the conversion of the sun's ability to produce active vitamin D. And I think that's at least one of the factors that's causing this problem because there's an epidemic of low vitamin D.

Lisa: And vitamin D is so important for your immune system, for your bone health, for hormones, for so many—I think there's no 700 processes in the body or something that it's responsible for. And here's me like I take 5000 IU a day and I'm thinking, I'm really good. And I study functional genomics, when I've discovered that in my genes, for example, because I'm of Maori descent, so native descent, my father was Maori, I have a slightly darker skin tone. I need more vitamin C because my transporters don't do their job very well and I don't get a lot of receptors. So I've been aware of this problem, and I'm taking 5000, bump up. I haven't actually gone and got it tested, I'm probably still deficient, given... And that's someone who's already on vitamin D. So that's a bit of an eye opener. And so how does—what is the mechanism? Why is cancer vitamin D, why is vitamin D so important for cancer?

Dr David: You said, it’s immune function, it's more of a hormone than it is vitamin. It's lots of different things that are really important. And they just noticed this association of cancer incidence versus vitamin D and the people at high levels, they had much less MS and less cancer, and less osteoporosis and less hypertension. So it's really important, it's a single nutrient. Now, there's lots of things that if you're if your selenium level’s low, if your vitamin A level’s low, I mean, these are all things, zinc level’s low, these are all things that are super important. You have low amino acid levels, it’s important in cancer. So it isn't a one-thing thing. But these are things that are measurable. 

Like a vitamin D blood test is maybe 25 bucks, it's not expensive. I mean, these are things that regular doctors can order. And, of course, guys who were doing functional medicine or functional nutrition, they can order it. And so—and everyone, we see—I order panels of all this stuff, because you find it virtually everybody isn't getting enough nutrition from the diet that they eat to keep them healthy and well nourished. And they're in a toxic environment where you need more of this stuff, not less. And then if you can normalise these things, then the person is going to have more resilience to this huge toxic factor that we're all living in.

Lisa: Yes, this horrible suit that we're stuck in.

So I wanted to transition now over into your book, The Search for the Perfect Protein because I think this is a good segway coming. Because I didn't understand like, as an athlete, I used to always, and I've done 70,000 kilometres in my lifetime. I've run pretty much every desert there is on the planet, I've done horrific things to my body. And I will always be taking branched-chain amino acids and they certainly helped my performance. 

But I'm now starting to understand after reading your book, that they aren't the whole picture. And they are only three of the essential amino acids. And I've got PerfectAmino coming, hopefully today to my house, and I'm super excited because I know I'm protein deficient. I feel that I'm constantly anaemic even I have a good diet and I do everything right. And I know a lot of the athletes and a lot of the woman especially that I work with have are fighting these sorts of battles as well. 

Can you tell us what is an amino acid? Why is this absolutely crucial knowledge that people have and why they need to go and buy your book for starters? But what we need to understand about amino acids story?

Dr David: Okay. So if you look at nutrients, there's three things that are called macronutrients, the big ones, okay. There's carbohydrates, and fats, and proteins. Now, all of them are made out of three things, carbon and hydrogen and oxygen. Amino acid, amino in Greek means nitrogen. So amino acids make up protein. So proteins have nitrogen, but carbohydrates and fats don't have nitrogen. Okay? 

Now, an amino acid if you think of it, if we use an analogy, like language. So in the English language, there's 26 letters. And you could arrange those letters in different sequences and different lengths to make words. And so, in English language, I don't know, there's 350 or 400,000 words, okay. Some of them are very short, like one letter, like ‘I’ or ‘A’, one letter, some of them are really long. 

In amino acid chemistry, the alphabet is these things called amino acids. There's 22 of them, roughly. And so they are carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, plus, they have nitrogen, so they're called amino acids. And if you put them in different lengths and sequences, you get proteins. By definition a protein has to have 30 or more amino acids in a chain. There is a hormone in the body, which is just one amino acid, tyrosine. And if you put iodine on there, you get thyroid hormone. So thyroid hormone is made out of amino acid.

Lisa: Wow, tyrosine and iodine.

Dr David: With three to four iodines attached and that’s thyroid 

Lisa: Okay, T3, T4. Okay. 

Dr David: T3, T4, okay. Glutathione is a well-known antioxidant detoxifier, has three amino acids. So, the body puts those three in the right order, and it makes glutathione. 

Lisa: Wow. Super interesting. 

Dr David: It gets more complex. Insulin has—I think, I forgot—89 amino acids. And growth hormone has—I don't know—something hundred, hundred and 20 amino acids. So, the sequence of the 22 amino acids has to be just right or it doesn't make the same thing. Every insulin has the same sequence. The skeletal muscle is made up of two proteins. One's called actin, and one's called myosin. Actin has 5600 amino acids per one actin fibre. 

Lisa: Wow. 

Dr David: So if your body wants to make muscle fibre, you work out, you tear it. 

Lisa: That’s a lot of protein. 

Dr David: It takes 8600 of these amino acids to make one fibre. 

Lisa: Wow. In the right combination?

Dr David:  In the right combination. So most of us—so I got injured. I was training for Ironman, and I injured my hamstring. And at the time, I was a vegetarian. Now vegetarians are on low protein diets by definition. They're not eating meat, fish and eggs, that's where the major proteins are that we take in. And beans don't cut it. So, I didn't know this. I'm just a doctor. And I'm a young triathlete. But I think I'm doing the right thing.

So I get injured, and I can't figure out how I can get it healed. I injected it and massaged it and chiropractored it  and I did heat treatments and I did everything. Wouldn't get better. And I had a friend who had an amino acid mixture. And he said, ‘Try these’, he was in Europe and he got these things. And he said, ‘Try these’. And I tried those for six weeks, and my hamstring healed, they actually healed. I could do go to a track, do hardcore miles, no pain. And about three months later, I went to Canada and I did Ironman Canada, and I had my best time ever. And I thought, ‘Holy smokes, this stuff is really, something's happening in my body, that's good’. 

I noticed a couple other things to my maximum heart rate went up by 12 points. I could hit 176 on a real hot day going up a real steep hill on a bike. And I could hit 176 and it went to one 184. So I got a change, I got a physiologic change and improvement. So, I started playing with these amino acids. And I started measuring levels of amino acids in the clinic of patients that I was seeing. And what I found is that almost everybody had low levels of amino acids than what they should. Especially these things called essential amino acids.

Now, eight of the amino acids are called essential because the body can't make them, you got to get them in the food that you eat or in the supplementation. From those eight, you can make the other 14. So, if you don't get the eight, you don't make proteins because all the proteins have the essential amino acids. And if you're low in one or two or three, you're not going to make the protein 

Lisa: The whole thing doesn’t work.  

Dr David: It doesn't work. And the proteins turn over, they're always being rebuilt remodelled, because through our life there’s stressors. All the enzymes in the body that make energy and detoxified are proteins, they're made out of amino acids. And so, if the body isn't getting enough, there are 50,000 proteins in the body that need to be made all the time. And if you don't have enough coming in, the body is going to say, ‘I'm going to fix this tendon, but I'm going to let the immune system sag’, or ‘I'm going to fix this, whatever, and I'm going to I'm going to let the bones go because bones are made out of collagen, which is a protein, and I'm going to repair something else’. 

And so, the gut lining is supposed to get a new layer every three or four days. But if there's a shortage, it might be, ‘Let's put that off’. So, it's every six or seven days, or eight or nine days, or a person gets a—they get an overuse injury. And then it's weeks before it heals instead of, ‘Why isn't it healed in a couple of days, it should be able to heal up’. So, it's because there's a deficiency of amino acids. And so all these patients had deficiencies of amino acids. 

And so, we put together this formula called ‘PerfectAmino’, it's eight essential amino acids. And it's in a very specific blend. 

Lisa: And that’s key. 

Dr David: So that when you take the amino acids, your body utilises it 99%, utilises it to make body protein. So, there are thousands of athletes, or post-op patients, or pregnant or nursing patients, where you give them these supplemental amino acids and the body just starts to work better, it heals better, it performs better, immunity is better, osteoporosis gets better. And you can make a huge difference. 

So, the search for the perfect protein was really my search for what is the perfect thing that works better than meat and fish and eggs by a factor of at least three to six times that you could take as a supplement. Nobody wants to eat pills as their meal. So, you eat good food, and you eat animal proteins. And if you're a vegetarian, you don't want to eat animal proteins, then you need to take more essential amino acids, more PerfectAmino, because the amount of amino of essential amino acids in vegetable foods is low. And they just aren't good enough to really keep somebody nourished. 

I have tested thousands of vegans and vegetarians on their amino acid levels. They look terrible. A lot of these people are tired. They don't feel well, but they feel like the healthy thing to do is don't eat meat. Fine, I have no argument with that. But then you gotta make sure that you're getting the stuff you need so your body doesn't suffer. And PerfectAmino is vegan, it's kosher. So, like anybody with a list of, ‘It's got to fit these things’, they can take it because it's a safe, clean product. 

Lisa: And the amazing thing that I didn't understand was that when we’re looking at foods and saying, ‘Well, we'll get our protein from our food’, say, a whey protein drink or a piece of steak or a fish. You see, in your talks, I heard—whey protein you’re actually only using around 16%, as actual protein gets integrated into the body and the rest gets used and tuned into either carbohydrates. And actually, if you're trying to keep your weight down or anything like that, I’ve got lots of friends who are trying to do low carb diets, and then you taking a steak, and not realising that part of that steak will turn into carbohydrates. 

So, a steak was I think 33%, and fish was around the same and in eggs were quite high with a 48%, and breastmilk was the best at 49% that actually gets utilised. Yes, utilised in the body as a protein. And I was like, ‘Wow, so half of what I'm eating is not actually being used in the right way’. And when I looked at spirulina, because I'm very big on spirulina, and I've been, ‘Oh, it's got almost 64% protein’, and then realising that actually, you're only using a tiny portion of it. Not to say that spirulina is bad because there's lots of great reasons to take spirulina, but protein source, it’s not the optimum. 

And then the other interesting thing that I found is—just hopping back to my mum story, she's got fatty liver disease and some kidney issues. So, I've got her on a very low protein diet. And I've been concerned about what her ability to recover and do all the things that her body needs some protein when I've got her on a low, mostly vegetarian diet. 

Now I'm excited to get the PerfectAmino because I had to have a low protein diet with her because she can't process nitrogen. Nitrogen, for listeners, is the protein, it takes the nitrogen off and then it has to be processed in the liver and to urea and then excreted in the kidneys. Now if you've got liver or kidney problems, you can't get the urea out of the system. And of course, that leads to problems where you've got too much nitrogen, which is a toxin, and you can get gout and so on and worse things. 

So, this is a really good thing for people who have kidney disease, for people who are on dialysis, for people who have fatty liver disease or alcoholic liver or anything where it's impaired these detox processes and you can’t take your proteins, this is a way to get those proteins without the nitrogen problem.

Dr David: Exactly, exactly. And then so you can meet their protein needs with virtually no calories because this stuff has practically no calories. 10 grams is only four calories. 

So, if you're a dieter or, you know, if you're—let's say, we're going to go super lean, we're going to do low calorie, and still a chicken breast is going to be 250, 300 calories, or beef steak. Whereas you can get more protein and 10 tablets of PerfectAmino or two scoops, it comes as a powder too. And it's only four calories. 

And so, you can meet your protein needs, but you don't deplete yourself, and you don't get the calories. So, for dieting, it's good for your mum. It's perfect because see, immune wise, these immune proteins are made out of proteins. And if you're depleted, it may mean lack of immunity and a lot of these people that have chronic illness with kidneys or livers, they're susceptible to infection. And when you put them on low protein diets, their gut, they get a leaky gut, and they leak bacteria and they get infections. And then they have low immune proteins in their blood and they can get really sick, they can get sepsis, they can really get sick, they can get skin breakdown. So, mouth ulcers, lots of stuff. 

So, this is something that can be used by, virtually all sick people are amino acid deficient. I mean, 100%, I don't care what's, whether you've got cancer or Parkinson's or chronic fatigue, you have low amino acids. If you're an athlete, you most likely have low amino acids and your performance will increase. We've had lots of super high elite level athletes that are taking this thing now. And I just tell people, if you're an athlete and you're trying to get performance, the guys that are beating you on PerfectAmino.

Lisa: And you've had this case in the Tour de France. So I heard that story with the guys that were on the PerfectAmino we're not breaking down like the guys because after 21 days of an extreme amount of exercise, you're smashing the crap out of your body. And at the end, they were turning out to be stronger than they had gone into the competition with these aminos, and I'm like, ‘Ah, damn, why didn't I have that during my competitive career’? It was good to have branched-chain, but it wasn't really the best option out there. 

Dr David: Well, see, with branched-chains, of the eight essential amino acids, three of them are called branched-chain. So that's just their structure. But if you take branch-chains—see, every protein in the body has all eight essential amino acids. So, if you're trying to build or expand your protein, or recover your protein, if you're taking the three, you're not getting all eight, and it won't work. So branched-chain amino acids act like a carbohydrate, you might as well eat a banana.

Lisa: Oh, wow.

Dr David: Now what I've been finding, so I'm doing an Ironman in two weeks, and I have this company called BodyHealth, so we make an electrolyte. So, it's a mixture of sodium, it's got high potassium, it's got zinc, and magnesium and trace minerals, and we put two grams per serving of PerfectAmino in there. 

So, I'm putting my 22-ounce water bottles, when I go out and bike, 22 ounces of water, I put two scoops in the electrolytes, that's four grams of amino acids. And I put a scoop of the regular PerfectAmino, which is another five grams. And I'm drinking a bottle every hour or two, depending on the heat. 

And I tell you that it's a performance increaser recovery. And then, it keeps your mind clear because having these amino acids trickle in, just gives your body a message that there's plenty available, you can work it hard, you don't have—there's no deficiency. And I find it just really makes a huge difference to use doses that are higher than what we used to recommend, but it actually works better. 

Lisa: So, because someone like me, who's done like 25 years of extreme endurance sports, and really smashed my body, damaged my kidneys, constant problems with anaemia, and now I have really a problem with my exercise tolerance has gone down massively, in the last four years, I've had lots of stress as well, with sick parents and so on. 

But is there a way back? Is there a way to build that resilience that I used to have through—like, I have a very good diet, I have very good supplementation or constantly learning but doing well on all those points, and yet the exercise tolerance is still very low at the moment. 

So, where I used to be go out and be able to run 200 kilometres, now a 5k run is quite a mission. Is there a way back for me, do you think? I should book an appointment with you, but just look from an athlete's point of view, will this help with exercise tolerance, as well as the recovery?

Dr David: See your mitochondria are not, they’re not producing? Every disease condition too—it's a power failure.

Lisa: Yes, someone pulled the plug. 

Dr David: The bulbs are, you got a 10-watt bulb in a room that needs a 100-watt bulb. And as long as there's daylight coming in from the outside, and you could read, you could see with a 10-watt bulb, but when it gets dark, you can't read, you can't see. And these mitochondria, they’re not making ATP. 

And so while they used to be able to crank out ATP, I don't think it's at this point that their structure is so damaged, that they can't be recovered. I think they need some help, like some diagnostic help, like what are the actual issues? What are the mineral imbalances? What are the hormones doing? What shape is your gut in? Do you have parasites? Are there heavy metals? What are your amino acid levels? Like you have to do sort of a like where is the problem coming from? What is the weak link that's causing this mitochondria to not be able to produce energy? 

And so, we do a thing where we actually do a test of mitochondrial function, we measure the VO2 max and we measure what their actual metabolism is, and you can say, ‘Wow, this guy can't do it’. You take someone with chronic fatigue and their anaerobic threshold. So that's where they can no longer have enough oxygen coming in to keep up with what It's needed and they start producing lactic acid. Their anaerobic threshold consists of sitting up in bed, they just hit their anaerobic threshold. Like they can't walk to the bathroom because it's too much. 

And then you take somebody like yourself, you could run 200 kilometres. And you never were at anaerobic threshold, and you were moving pretty darn fast, with tremendous amount of energy being produced. And I don't think the machine is broken, I just think the machine has been stressed and it needs a rebuild process. And that you could do it, and some of its amino acids, and some of its hormonal, and some of its, there's a lot of tricks now to be able to, like, ‘How can we get this thing moving so that we can get the performance back up’? And then when the performance goes back up, it’s like, ‘Here, I’m back’. 

Lisa: It’s like, ‘Oh my God’. Yes. And then, I've been working on my own issues while I'm learning all these other things and rehabilitating my mum, and I've learned a lot, and I'm certainly a lot better. But there's a couple of pieces of the puzzle missing. So that's why I'm super excited about the PerfectAmino part of the story. And I'll report back to you on how they had to fix me because I'm damn sure that there's a protein deficiency going on. If I look at my whole entire history, there's always been a problem. 

And getting off my case now, but just looking at the whole gut health situation, this is where it was really an eye opener for me too. You see that the gut lining is only one self-second, it replaces itself every three, four, five days. But some people it's taking up to 10 days. And this leads to leaky gas with a zonulin and the tight junctions are getting too loose and leading protein and in bacteria and things through into the bloodstream, which is causing systemic inflammation and problems everywhere. And it becomes a bit of a catch 22 isn't it? When you don't have enough amino acids, you can't make new gut cells. But then if you don't have a good gut, then you can’t absorb the protein, and it sort of becomes a vicious cycle. So this is a way to break that cycle. And... 

Dr David: I mean, these things, we've measured this, you take a dose of 10 grams of amino acids and you start measuring blood levels amino acids in 23 minutes, this stuff’s in your bloodstream, almost irregardless of what your gut health is like. Like it gets in, it gets through. 

Lisa: Even with the gap absorption issues and working with a patient with celiac, for example, at the moment, whose got a lot of gut issues and so even for someone like that...

Dr David: You may have to start them easy, work them up.

Lisa: Yes, we're going to go to 30 grams a day straight off.

Dr David: Don’t go 30 grams straight off. But you can get them—but it starts the repair process. And then they can, nobody's healthy without a good gut. And hardly anybody's got a good gut. So it's always a critical piece of the puzzle to get people where they're not bloated and they don't have heartburn and they don't have constipation, they don't have diarrhea, and they wake up in the morning and they've got a flat belly that feels good. And you got to get that person there with things that you're familiar with, with probiotics and digestive enzymes and PerfectAmino, and these things. And in most people, you can heal up. 

Lisa: You can fix it. The digestive enzyme piece of the puzzle. Is there any danger with digestive enzymes? I heard your story about Kelley William Donalds, the enzyme? 

Dr David: Yes, those are over the top strong. 

Lisa: So, digestive enzymes. Do you have a digestive enzyme product in your line?

Dr David: Yes, yes, we call it Full Spectrum Digest. And it's, it's a really good product. It's like a digestive enzymes or some hydrochloric acid in it. The tolerance level on it is almost everybody can take it without a problem. The ones I was experimenting with, they're really strong.

Lisa: Right and that was for cancer prevention. Yes. And looking, which was interesting research, actually. But so okay. So you're looking at those two sides of the puzzle. And people as they get older, we produce this stomach acid. And then there are billions of people on 59:50 bloemen acid blockers. And that's a real problem that's causing all these gut issues and then it becomes the next pill to fix, the next thing. So polypharmacy sort of situations that people get into. 

So this is a way out now taking acid blockers, why are they bad? Or well, bad, long term?

Dr David: Well, the enzyme in the stomach, it starts protein digestion, requires an acid to be active. So it's called pepsin. And if the pH of the stomach, so pH is a measure of acidity, one is the most acid, 14 is the least acid. So 14 is alkaline, 7 is water in the middle. So, in order for the pepsin in the stomach to activate, it requires a pH in the stomach of one to two. So that's very acid. 

Pepsin is the beginning process of breaking down the proteins that you eat. So you eat a chicken breast. So the actin fibres in that chicken muscle have 5600 amino acids in a chain. Now, your intestine will not accept that, it's too big. It will only accept it if it's chopped into little teeny individual amino acids. So if you don't break actin fibre down into 5600 individual amino acids, your body can't utilise that protein, it can't get it in. 

So if you give someone a drug, which doesn't allow them to produce stomach acid—no, so now the level of acid in the stomach is seven, it's water. The pepsin doesn't get activated. The first step in protein digestion doesn't occur. And so you don't get the benefit of the proteins that you're eating. The other side of it is in order to absorb minerals, magnesium, zinc, selenium, you need an acid stomach. And if you don't have an acid stomach, you don't get absorption and key minerals. So we find 80% of the patients that we test, they have magnesium deficiency, many of potassium on a cellular level deficiency and zinc deficiency, and selenium. So, these are key things. 

The other problem when you block stomach acid, the food that we eat is not sterile. Nobody boils their food until it's sterile before they eat it. We eat raw food or fruits, we eat raw vegetables, there's bacteria in there, there’re parasites in there. And you eat that stuff. And if the mechanism of the body to protect itself from bacteria in food is that there's acid in the stomach, and it kills bacteria. If you don't have acid in your stomach, you eat that broccoli raw, or the tomato. Or you went to a restaurant you had a salad but right before they chopped up the lettuce, they had a raw piece of fish on the thing that they were slicing up and he didn't really wipe off the cutting board very well. And then he puts his lettuce on there, he’s chopping it up. And so, there's some parasites in that lettuce, there's some amoebas, or something in there, and you eat that. And it doesn't get killed in your stomach, which is supposed to happen and it gets in your small intestine. There's a worldwide epidemic now, what's called SIBO, it's all intestinal bacterial overgrowth. Well, where those bacteria come from? They came from your food. Why did they get through? Because you have no stomach acid. 

Lisa: Oh my gosh. So it becomes a vicious cycle. 

Dr David: Dogs can eat anything because they have humongous levels of stomach acid. And so, they could go and eat out of puddles and eat all this stuff because they have a protection.

Lisa: So by blocking it, we’re actually causing way more—and that the good and the reflex, a reflex is actually not enough essence, not too much isn't it? So, and as we get older, we produce this betaine or HCl betaine. So, we need to be looking at our levels of stomach acids and enzymes. So pancreatic enzymes are lipases and proteases as well, all of the things that break down. 

And so having a supplementation of good enzymes, and a good combination, in combination with the PerfectAmino, I think is a really a golden sort of—and then add on a few... And people might say, ‘Well, isn't there just a whole lot of supplementation? And can I just, you know, eat my normal food like we did back in the day’? And the answer is, I don't think we can because the world isn't a complete mess and we are not living as we did 200 years ago and how our ancestors had good food and no glyphosate and they had good organic meats and they didn't have this toxic influx of exhaust fumes and paint fumes and furniture, off gassing, and all of these things that are adding to the load that the modern day human has to deal with. 

And so therefore, I think we do need appropriate supplementation, good organic food, and good exercise, good sleep patterns, good—all those basic things that we often also neglect to have a healthy human. And this is why we've got massive chronic disease now that we shouldn't be having. And the wonders of modern medicine so that they can keep us alive with great surgeries and great—but on what status so many people are in a hell of a hell of a mess. 

And they just get one pill after another. When you go to the doctor often and this is not everybody, thank goodness there’s some amazing functional doctors out there, like yourself. But often you go and you get stomach acid because you've got Gerd or you get a blood pressure medication or just one pharmacy thing after the other. And this whole model seems to be skew with, doesn't it?

Dr David: Yes, it's totally skewed. 

Lisa: It’s totally out of balance. Yes. Skewed is a good word.

Dr David: You know, sometimes in emergencies, they can save somebody's life. But in a long-term solution, it's not workable. And so, American healthcare is the most expensive in the world. And yet we're 29th in the world in overall health. Medicine is not the answer, lifestyle is the answer. 

And so, if that's nutrition, and it's what you said. It's sleep, and it's relationships, and it's good nutrition, and it's organic food, and it's sunshine, and it's finding what makes you happy, and the purpose. And without those things, you drugs aren't going to fix you. They're never the right answer to it. 

Like I said, in an emergency, it might be needed. You've got a bleeding ulcer, okay, take the acid blocker until your stomach heals. But then figure out what happened, what is an infection or what was wrong? And get off of it because it's long term, it's bad for you. These drugs are associated with gastric cancer because they're bad for you. And they shouldn't be used that way.

Lisa: And across the board, aren’t they? Just like everything, like antidepressants to our vaccinations to—these are all things that yes they may have some good things, but they're just given out like lollies, it would say, and the damage that we're doing is huge in its societal perspective, we really got some major problems. I mean, look at the whole contraceptive and I might go into that, but the damage that has been done to our whole fertility and woman's health and in so on, all of these areas.

And so, in our little way, I hope that this conversation, these open conversations and the sharing, what I love about my podcast is that I get to meet amazing people doing incredible work and just help you get that message just a little bit further, for a little bit more people. And it is basically one by one by one we’ll slowly be able to change. 

And if we vote—I heard you say in one of your talks was that we vote with it with our dollar—if we start demanding food that’s not packaged in plastics all the time, if we start buying more organic, and start avoiding the things that are bad for our planet, and voting with our dollar then we're going to contribute to the solution because everything is dollar driven, unfortunately. It's a reality of our world. So, we need to actually change, each one of us add to that conversation.

Dr David:  Yes, I mean, the reason why companies sell Doritos is because people buy Doritos. And they will keep making Doritos because you can’t eat just one

Lisa: It tastes so good. Oh hell no. 

Dr David:  It’s engineered that way. But if you eat something else and the world turns that way. That's—Amazon bought Whole Foods because it's good business.

Lisa: Great. That's good thing 

Dr David: The entrepreneur’s looking for what is going to drive the business. And that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It's just that, like you said, each of us have a choice with what we buy, and it's a vote. And the more we buy the things that aren't good for us, the more we support the industries that are doing things that aren't good for us. If all of us decided, ‘We're not going to eat any foods from now on that has glyphosate on it’. And then the farmer brings it and says, ‘There's no glyphosate in here’. ‘Okay, I'll buy it’. ‘There's glyphosate in it? I'm not buying it’. If we got 10 million or 20 million or 50 million or a billion people to say, ‘We're fed up with this, we're not even glyphosate’. You know what? They wouldn't make glyphosate anymore. 

So we got what we deserve because that's what we did. And we got blindsided. And I think we got bought, and the guys that run everything control media and 70% of the media is pharmaceutical, big agriculture. So, if you watch a lot of TV, you're going to get brainwashed, and you're going to buy what they tell you. So, I mean, you got to start getting your information from different places. Like from you. And if they listen to you, and turn off the TV set, and then do what you say, and we get more and more and more and more people doing this, we can change the world in some ways.

Lisa: A move up by the people.

Dr David: You can’t blame them. 

Lisa: Yes. I mean, this is exactly what I'm wanting to make a documentary around the vitamin C story. And it's going to be very hard to get funding for such a thing, because the media companies are also, it's so one-sided, shall we say? And this is a problem. We're not getting the right—we're not getting unbiased information out there. I mean, in New Zealand, they advertise direct to our consumers drugs. 

Dr David: Well, here, too. The US, too. 

Lisa: I mean, I just don't understand it. We don't let them put smoke cigarette advertising on television, but we let them put pharmaceutical advertising and ask your doctor for this. And it's like, ‘Really’?

Dr David: Yes. Yes. And they control Google, they control everything. So that if you're looking for things, you're going to find what they want you to see. In the United States now, the Justice Department and the US government is going after Google for controlling media of what they want people to see. And they won't let people see...

Lisa: Are they doing this? 

Dr David: It’s fantastic. Now I don't know—I hope they can get it but it's really true. They have amazing health censorship. 

Lisa:  Oh, yes, Google is censoring.

Dr David: And so, it's moving. Just hopefully, we can get this thing moving fast enough before we extinct our species.

Lisa: Because we are, I mean, fertility rates are dropping, everything is heading downwards if we don't start to make a difference.

And just to sum up, because I know I've taken up far more of your time than I should have. But you see that a beautiful summary in your book, there is no such thing as a free lunch. For those people who say, ‘Well, I don't want to pay for tasting and supplements and good food’, you're going to pay in another way. You're going to pay, you're just choosing to pay later and down the track with worse consequences. Or you're paying to be preventative, you're paying for good health. And those are the two choices. We're making a choice. And inaction is one choice. It is a choice.

Dr David: Right. And no one bats an eye paying five bucks for Starbucks. Okay? Maybe one every day. Okay, so that's 150 bucks in a month of Starbucks coffee. Or you could buy a big canister of amino acids for that. And you could make your coffee at home for two cents a cup. And you'd be the same. 

So you're right, they’re choosing and if what you choose is not pro-survival in the long run, then you're going to end up in the medical system. And the medical system is very dangerous. The third leading cause of death in the United States, I don't know how it is New Zealand, is doctor-caused illness, death. Whether it's surgeries or procedures, or drug reactions, it is a real big deal. 

And if you don't want to end up as one of their statistic casualties, then you have to be able to orient your life toward nutrition, and supplementation, and detoxification, and healthy living, then you don't have to mess with them. Otherwise, you're going to end up in because you're going to get high blood pressure, or diabetes, or osteoporosis, or arthritis, or one of these things, and then you're going to go to them, you're going to get a drug. And then that drugs going to cause a problem, and then you're going to get another drug, and then that causes a problem. And then pretty soon, you're one of their guys. And if people had to actually pay for their medical care, none of this would happen. 

When government starts paying for medical care, and the governments are run by the big lobbyists, and then you get free this and that, now you're really, like you said, there's no free lunch, you're going to pay. You just think it's free but actually, it's not.

Lisa: Yes. And I mean, I've just been through two huge journeys in my family with my mum, as I said earlier, with four and a half years of rehabilitation and fighting the system. And now with my father and the things that I experienced fear, not being able to get him vitamin C, when he was dying of sepsis, and he was dying. And I was told that he was, and I was still not allowed to give it to them. And I had to fight legal battles, ethics committees, I had doctors and friends on the outside that I'm connected to pushing for me, given me all the evidence to present and I am the second person in history of New Zealand able to get vitamin C in the ICU setting. But it was too late for my dad. 

And this is the sort of thing we're up against. So, I want people to understand that when they get stuck into that hospital system, there are limitations as to what you're allowed to do. You don't have the jurisdiction over your own body anymore. And I wish it hadn't got to that point with my dear father. And it's something that I'm going to have to work through over the next few years, and his legacy will be that I will get those change some way, come hell or high water. It's my ultra-marathon now, is to change that one thing. And there's lots of other things I'd like to change but if I can get that through that message, then I'm contributing to that story. 

Look, Dr Minkoff, you've been just so wonderful today. Thank you so much for the generosity of your time, we've done a very long session. I would love to have another team with you. Honestly, I wish you lived in New Zealand. Thank you for the work and the dedication. I know that you could be just sunning yourself in Florida, and retiring, and enjoying, doing Ironmans all around the world but you're still passionate about this work. And I love learning from masters like yourself. So, thank you very much for your service. It's really a pleasure

Dr David: My pleasure. Enjoyed it. I'm sure you can pull this off. I would hate to go up against you if I was Medical Board, you can do this thing. You just have to keep hammering on them because they don't know what they're talking about and they're stuck in a stupid idea. And it can be changed and your contribution is enormous and thanks for what you do.

Lisa: Thank you so much, doctor. 

That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional

We don't often look at preventative measures when it comes to our health. We typically look for ways to get better after we get sick — take a pill or undergo this operation, and everything will be better! Don't put off becoming more health-conscious until you've been diagnosed with a disease like cancer. The adage still holds: prevention is better than a cure. In this episode, Best Selling Science Author++ Travis Christofferson discusses the root causes of diseases and how we can take a preventive approach to health. He shares emerging cancer treatment research and encourages us to learn more about them. Focus on your overall health rather than specific diseases. When your body has a good immune system, it can help prevent illnesses like cancer! 

If you want to learn more about the latest in cancer research disease prevention, then this episode is for you!

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Understand the root causes of diseases and how we can prevent them rather than waiting for illness.
2. Learn about emerging cancer treatment research, including the metabolic approach, ketosis, abscopal effect, etc. 
3. The state of our health care systems

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My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless.

 

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Episode Highlights [03:17] Travis’ Background

• Travis has an undergraduate degree in biochemistry. He eventually took over the family business and got married. 
• He then finished his master's degree, focusing on cancer metabolism for his independent study.
• The prevailing teaching during that time was that somatic mutations cause cancer.
• Travis was inspired by the book, Cancer as a Metabolic Disease, to do a thesis on metabolic theory. 
• Otto Warburg proposed the metabolic theory many years ago, but the medical community dismissed it as simplistic. New evidence reignited interest in the approach.

[08:10] The State of Healthcare

• Public and health institutions have long accepted the somatic approach to cancer, with billions of dollars backing it. 
• The United States spends the most per capita on health care expenditure among developed countries yet has the lowest life expectancy. 
• The issue with the healthcare system lies in variations of treatment, over-treatment, and drug development process. 
• The healthcare industry is focused more on treating diseases rather than preventing them.  
• Although technology has advanced to assist people in tracking their health, people's health is deteriorating. Even if people live longer, they often experience illness and disability in their final years.

[12:48] Changing the Healthcare Industry 

• The healthcare incentive structure must change. Doctors get paid for every drug and procedure they prescribe, leading to overtreatment. 
• There are emerging practices where doctors get a big bonus per patient who doesn't need procedures, encouraging them to keep patients in good health.
• When blood sugar levels rise, doctors usually diagnose diabetes. However, we can test for fasting insulin regularly to intervene.
• This test can also help people prevent other diseases and become more health-conscious.
• Change takes time with systems and industries, but we can take simple lifestyle interventions now.

[16:01] Why People Are Getting Sicker

• Maintaining our health can be challenging. We've been conditioned that taking a magic pill is preferable to putting in the effort.
• Remember that metabolic dysregulation causes aging, not the other way around.
• In the last 10,000 years, humanity has drastically shifted to consuming processed foods, carbohydrates, and oils, resulting in noticeable consequences.
• People have also become sedentary. 
• A hunter-gatherer society has no obesity, insulin resistance, or chronic systemic inflammation. However, we frequently see this in the Western world.

[20:32] The Root of Diseases 

• Understanding cellular health and inflammatory processes are critical in keeping yourself healthy. 
• Periods of food scarcity have happened throughout humanity's evolution. Our bodies enter ketosis due to the caloric deficit but most never reach this state.
• Studies have shown that ketosis can help prevent diseases ranging from Alzheimer's to Parkinson's to cancer and diabetes.
• Constantly eating keeps our immune system active and prevents it from resting, which has implications for chronic inflammatory diseases.

[24:53] What Happens During Ketosis? 

• Ketosis happens in a fasted state, and a ketogenic diet is nutritional maintenance.
• When we fast, our bodies will mobilise the fat we have in our bodies and begin a process of beta-oxidation to burn off fat. 
• A caloric deficit makes this process faster, converting fats into ketone bodies, which then take the place of glucose. 
• Ketones have more thermodynamic energy and ATP per carbon unit compared to glucose. 
• Ketosis also boosts antioxidant levels. Since diseases are oxidative, ketosis can help to combat illnesses. Listen to the episode to learn more! 

[32:01] Growing Healthcare Trends 

• Research has shown that fasting before chemotherapy can reduce some radiation side effects
• Sugar is fuel for cancer cells, but doctors continue giving and allowing patients to consume it. 
• There's more awareness of the latest research. The annual Metabolic Therapeutic Conference has grown to around 1600 attendees.   
• When we approach doctors, we will receive information their institution has taught and allowed them to give us.
• Even with COVID-19, people have yet to explore treatments like monoclonal antibodies, hyperbaric, and Vitamin C. 

[44:00] The Abscopal Effect on Cancer

• The abscopal effect is when you target a single tumour site, but it affects other tumour sites in the body. 
• Travis shares a case where someone with breast cancer on a checkpoint inhibitor received a much lower radiation dose. 
• In that case, radiation was sufficient to systematically stimulate the immune system to attack cancer, improving the patient's chances of survival.

[47:41] Advancements in Immunotherapy

• Using peptides to manipulate the immune system is still a trial and error process.
• The immune system's job is to survey for cancer, get rid of it early, and create a checkpoint to avoid attacking itself. 

[49:44] Emerging Cancer Treatment Research

• In detection, metastasis is an early stage event rather than a late-stage one. Cancer cells break off, dying when it reaches the bloodstream. 
• This selection pressure creates different genetic mutations in tumours. 
• The somatic mutation theory argues that a series of sequential mutations cause cancer, with each tumour site having a unique set of driving mutations.
• The epigenetic metabolic theory posits that these mutations are a side effect of the disease. 
• All cancers burn sugar and evade the immune system, but mutations vary too much. Treatments should focus on epigenetic expression rather than mutations.

[55:16] Researching Treatment Options

• The medical field is filled with uncertainty. Cancer treatment options have not been compared. 
• After an in-depth look at clinical trials, we find that what seems to be the best treatment paradigm isn't always the right option.
• When conducting research, consider the data and evaluate it using a risk-reward framework. You can choose from low-risk alternatives.

[59:59] The Soil Approach to Cancer 

• Cancer grows in the presence of a favourable microenvironment and molecular events. It takes a long time for a chronic irritant to develop cancer cells.
• Cancer cells take on characteristics of our earliest genes,  including replication and the appearance of early embryos.
• You can help your cells "behave" by providing oxygen and avoiding chronic irritants.
• Nurture the microenvironment through exercising and eating the right foods. 
• Instead of focusing on the seed or cancer, we should concentrate on the soil or microenvironment.

[1:04:05] Health and Longevity

• While we don't know humankind's natural and optimal states, ketosis and fasting provide a glimpse.
• Cells stop metabolising as we age, causing inflammation. We may be able to extend life spans if we can reduce senescent cells.
• Travis shares a study in which mice received fisetin, found in strawberries, reducing senescent cells and prolonging their life. 
• There's a lot of new research on substances that kill senescent cells, like senolytics, quercetin, and other compounds.

[1:08:49] About StageZero Life Sciences 

• StageZero Life Sciences looks into markers of inflammation, insulin resistance, etc.
• They also recommend potential lifestyle interventions to change those markers. 
• They are currently available in Richmond, Virginia, Toronto, and Ontario, Canada.

7 Powerful Quotes

'It's just a combination of probably a terrible diet and just not moving enough because we were designed to go out and have to work every day to catch food. That's what we evolved, and when you uncouple your physiology from that environmental niche, you see all kinds of problems'

‘It appears that evolution has built in a powerful signal to that when you're in a caloric deficiency, you switch your metabolism…to something called ketosis where you completely shift what you're burning to these little small molecules that come from fat,’

‘We're terrible at focusing on prevention. We focus on the disease, trying to treat it once it's already manifest, which is an absolutely horrible strategy.’

‘If we look at cancer then as the prime drivers being metabolic and epigenetic, that means that all of those things potentially could be modifiable, right? We don't have to target mutations. We can look for ways to change the way cells are expressing genes and so forth, and metabolising substrates and things like that.’

‘Just mind the microenvironment of your body, which is giving you the right food, exercising. It's designed to do that. Every time you do that, it brings down those inflammatory processes, and so forth.’

‘We tend to think we're in this modern era, but with regard to cancer, we will look back 200 years from now, realise that we were just in the Dark Ages. We’re still using radiation which was invented about 110 years ago; chemotherapy was invented around World War II. That's still the mainstay of cancer treatments.’

‘When you really look deep, the two problems really are variation in treatment, over-treatment. The drug development process, I think, is one of the main problems too,’

Resources

• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! 
• Want to learn more from Travis? Check out his books: 
• • Tripping Over the Truth: How the Metabolic Theory of Cancer is Overturning One of Medicine's Most Entrenched Paradigms 
  • Curable: How an Unlikely Group of Radical Innovators is Trying to Transform our Health Care System
  • Ketones, The Fourth Fuel: Warburg to Krebs to Veech, the 250 Year Journey to Find the Fountain of Youth
  • The Origin (and future) of the Ketogenic Diet, co-authored with Dr Dom D’Agostino  
• Cancer as a Metabolic Disease: On the Origin, Management, and Prevention of Cancer by Thomas Seyfried 
• Emperor of All Maladies: A Biography of Cancer by Siddhartha Mukherjee
• The Cancer Code: A Revolutionary New Understanding of a Medical Mystery by Dr Jason Fung 
• Healthy Conversations With Travis Christofferson and Guest, Jason Fung M D from StageZero Life Sciences  
• Check out these previous episodes with Dr Elena Seranova: 
• • Episode 238 - Reverse Ageing to Live Longer and Healthier
  • Episode 189 - Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity
  • Episode 183 - Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity   
• Learn more about cancer and health through our previous episodes: 
• • The Six Cornerstones for Better Health with Dr Charles Meakin
  • Cancer Revolution: The Metabolic Approach to Cancer with Maggie and Bradley Jones  
• Abscopal effect following radiation monotherapy in breast cancer: A case report
• Fisetin is a senotherapeutic that extends health and lifespan
• Short-term fasting accompanying chemotherapy as supportive therapy in gynecological cancer: protocol for a multicenter randomised controlled clinical trial
• StageZero Life Sciences: Website | AVRT Program
• Foundation for Metabolic Cancer Therapies   
• Connect with Travis:  LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook   

About Travis 

Travis Christofferson is the founder of The Foundation for Metabolic Cancer Therapies and works in Clinical Development at StageZero Life Sciences Ltd. 

He is also a science author of several books, including Tripping Over the Truth: How the Metabolic Theory of Cancer Is Overturning One of Medicine's Most Entrenched Paradigms, Curable: How an Unlikely Group of Radical Innovators Is Trying to Transform Our Health Care System, Ketones, The Fourth Fuel, and co-author of The Origin (and future) of the Ketogenic Diet. 

Want to learn more about Travis’ work? Check out Foundation for Metabolic Cancer Therapies. 

You can also connect with him on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook.

 

 

Have you ever felt that you are not doing enough and not achieving enough? It may be easier to look at our current situation and feel sorry about ourselves but rest assured that everything is part of the process. Growth means doing things one step at a time and taking ownership of our situation and life.  

In this episode, Geoffrey Woo interviews Lisa about her experiences with ultramarathons and the importance of mindset during these difficult races. Lisa also talks about how all her experiences created a character that never backed down, even when her mother almost died from an aneurysm. Developing strength meant that she needed to pick herself up from failures and disappointments time and time again.   

If you want to know more about building strength and resilience, tune in to the podcast episode! 

 

Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up

For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://wellness.lisatamati.com/epigenetics.

You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.

 

Online Coaching for Runners

Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching. You can also join our free live webinar on runners' warm-up to learn how a structured and specific warm-up can make a massive difference in how you run.

 

Consult with Me

If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries,  to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations

 

Order My Books

My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/

For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.

 

My Jewellery Collection

For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.

 

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Learn about the power of mindset when facing difficult situations. 
2. How do ultramarathons build your resilience and mental strength? 
3. Discover how compounding experiences can uncover your true potential. 

 

Resources

• Check out Geoffrey Woo’s podcast at H.V.M.N. Podcast, Apple Podcasts, and at Youtube.
• Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art by James Nestor
• The Oxygen Advantage: Simple, Scientifically Proven Breathing Techniques to Help You Become Healthier, Slimmer, Faster, and Fitter by Patrick McKeown
• Born to Run: A Hidden Tribe, Superathletes, and the Greatest Race the World Has Never Seen by Christopher McDougall
• The Oxygen Revolution: Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy: The New Treatment for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), Traumatic Brain Injury, Stroke, Autism and More by Paul G. Harch M.D.
• The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science by Norman Doidge
• Concussion Rescue: A Comprehensive Program to Heal Traumatic Brain Injury by Kabran Chapek
• Register at Broken Brain to keep updated with Dr Mark Hyman’s documentary series!

 

Episode Highlights [07:45] Lisa’s Journey Into Ultramarathon Races

• Lisa has been doing ultramarathon racing for over 25 years.
• Her ultramarathon races have been mostly located at deserts.
• While she was not born with the genetic ability, Lisa owes these achievements to her strong mindset. 

[09:49] How Lisa Faced Challenges

• Lisa used to be on track to become a national gymnast. 
• Going through puberty changed her body and made her unfit for gymnastics. This led to her poor body image, self-loathing, and low self-esteem. 
• In her early 20s, Lisa felt that she was never going to be good enough. This culminated when she crossed the Libyan Desert. 
• Find out more about Lisa’s harrowing experience, both physically and emotionally, at the Libyan Desert in the full episode!

[15:57] Surviving The Libyan Desert And The Aftermath

• In addition to the difficult and illegal crossing, Lisa also broke up with her then-boyfriend. 
• Surviving the Libyan Desert meant focusing on just one step after another. 
• The whole experience made Lisa physically and emotionally wrecked for two years. 

[23:58] Lisa’s First Encounter With Ultramarathon Races

• One day, Lisa saw a Moroccan race that only required 240 kilometres, 9 litres of water a day, with support from doctors, journalists, and helicopters. 
• These paled in comparison to the Libyan Desert crossing, where Lisa’s team had to travel 250 kilometres with 2 litres of water a day and 35-kilogram backpacks.
• This comparison led Lisa to join the ultramarathon and she loved the experience. 
• She notes that the community in ultramarathons was so uplifting that she kept signing up for more.

[25:34] Developing Emotional And Cognitive Resilience

• Pushing your body’s limits with ultramarathons can build your resilience. 
• Failure is a part of pushing to the limits and you have to get over that.
• Resilience is not taught enough in our society. 

[28:15] Building Resilience

• We don’t have the benefit of hindsight when we’re experiencing highs and lows, but trust in the process. 
• Lisa talks about losing her son and how painful experiences can have moments of joy too. 
• Listen to the full episode to hear how Lisa turned heartbreaking and difficult experiences into sources of strength and courage. 

[38:27] Society’s Disconnect With Nature

• People tend to live vicariously through others and not go through experiences themselves. 
• We have become disconnected from nature that affects our health and well being.
• We cannot depend on anyone to save us. We have to make things happen ourselves.

[43:44] Compounding Experiences 

• Create momentum with small successes.
• When you hit roadblocks and failures, deal with them as they happen. 
• Know that there is no limitation on what you can do. 
• There is a misconception that running is bad for the joints.
• You have to train for a marathon by building up strength and endurance.

[52:53] Mindset During Difficult Times

• Lisa talks about how she used to have a prideful mindset of needing to prove that she can do something.
•  Nowadays, her experiences with charity races developed a gratitude mindset. 
• Lisa also thinks about how she would do anything for her loved ones.
• For more details on how a New Zealand race and her mother taught her how to break down a situation step by step, check out the full episode! 

[1:00:51] Value Of Learning From Experiences

• It's hard to convey experience and until you've lived through it.
• When Lisa’s mother had an aneurysm, Lisa went above and beyond to help her. 
• Tune in to the episode for Lisa’s extensive research into hyperbaric oxygen therapy, functional neurology, and the ketogenic diet to save her mother! 

 [1:16:27] Improving The Standard Of Care

• We can change the standard of care and improve the current medical system.
• With the current age of technology, information and research are more widely available. 
• Take ownership of your health and do the research. 
• No matter the age, people need to have goals and be challenged. 
• We have to respect and care for our elders better for they have helped shape us to become who we are today. 

 

7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode

“And so no matter what you're going through in life, try to think of it as well, this is going to be a part of something that I'm meant to be learning and I can turn this around.”/

“When I decided I want something, I just do it until I get good at it, even if I'm hopeless at it at the start.”

“None of us have to be limited anymore. Certainly not this day and age by one profession.”

“It's all a matter of the motivation. It's how bad do you want this thing.”

(My mother) “poured my focus back into the here and the now, instead of projecting into the future, which was overwhelming and terrifying. And that's how we broke it down step by step.”

“If I hadn't had the belief that the human body and mind are capable of far more than what the average person thinks it is, then I would have listened to the naysayers and I would have given up.”

“We've got to do better. And we've got to respect our elders. They're the ones who made us who we are.”

 

About Geoffrey Woo

Geoffrey Woo is the Co-founder and Executive Chair of Health Via Modern Nutrition, or H.V.M.N. With the core mission of redefining human performance and longevity, the company offers quality nootropics to the market. The company is guided by rigorous research and development based on science, coupled with label transparency and evidence grading. 

Geoffrey is also the host of the H.V.M.N. Podcast, where he regularly interviews experts on health, nutrition, biohacking, and entrepreneurship. With over 100 episodes, you are sure to learn about optimizing your health! Tune in to the podcast! 

 

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For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.

To pushing the limits,

Lisa

 

Full Transcript

 

Intro: Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.

Lisa Tamati: Well, hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing The Limits this week.

Now today I have something a little bit different than my usual format. I've actually used a interview that I did on the H.V.M.N. podcast with the amazing Geoffrey Wu. He has an incredible podcast and company that I'd love you to check out as well. I'll put all the links in the show notes. And he did this interview with me and I told my story and a little bit of my background. And particularly we went into the story behind the Libyan desert, which was an illegal crossing that I did across the Libyan desert, a long, long time ago, beginning of my career. And I thought it would be quite interesting to share this little backstory with you. And also, you know, we go into a deep discussion around high performance and being the best that you can be.

So I hope you enjoy this interview. something a little bit different than having my usual guests which will be back to next week. I do have coming up in the next few weeks, some fantastic guests. I have James Nestor who is the author of Breath, which is an incredible book, all about the art of breathing. And you would be amazed at the science behind optimizing your health and everything with breathing.

And then I also have Patrick McKeown who is also the author of The Oxygen Advantage, again, all about nasal breathing [0:01:43]and the particular breathing techniques and just absolutely incredible. Both New York Times bestselling books, top authors, top experts in this field. So, I hope you make sure you tune into that.

Also coming up on the show in the next few weeks. I have Dr. Brian Walsh, who is one of my teachers and incredible, incredible — a super brain of a man — who's going to be talking to us about detoxing. So those are a few episodes coming up in the next few weeks. So make sure you do stay tuned.

Now before I go over to the interview, I just want to remind you, now Christmas is coming up. If you haven't got your Christmas presents, check out my jewellery collection online, it's called The Fears Collection and it's all about inspiring and motivating people with while you're wearing some blink, while you’re wearing something that's pretty cool. So sports jewellery, it's hardwearing, it's the sort of things you can dress down or dress up with. And I hope you enjoy that collection. You can find it in my shop on lisatamati.com.

Also, on that note with Christmas coming up, got to remind you to go and grab one of my books, either Running Hot, which was my first book, Running To Extremes, which was my second. Both of those chronicling all my adventures around the world. And my third book, which has just come out this year, Relentless, telling the story of bringing my mum back after her massive aneurysm and all the brain damage that she had and being told that there was no way forward. It's an empowering, inspiring story — a love story. And it's a story that is really — a book that it's actually, I'm getting feedback all the time from people telling me how much it's changed their lives, their approach to taking ownership over their own health and not just leaving it up to everyone else. So, I hope you enjoy it.

Now head over to the show in just a moment. But if you could also do a rating and review for the podcasts I really, really appreciate that. And I say it every week. But I do really appreciate getting any reviews. And if you've got any questions, please reach out to us. You can reach me on lisa@lisatamati.com. We're also taking on a few clients at the moment on a one-on-one which we don't usually do just because of the sheer volume of work that we have. But I am taking on a very few people. If you've got to have health journey that you want help with, you want someone to help navigate some tricky waters that you're going through, or challenge, or if you're setting yourself up for a mess of big sporting challenge, obviously, mindset or anything like that, then please reach out to me. I do enjoy working one on one with just a handful of people at a time because it does take a lot of resources. So, if you're interested in that reach out to me at lisa@lisatamati.com.

And now over to the show with the interview with Geoffrey Wu.

Announcer: Coming up in this episode

Lisa: Our little boy Joseph suddenly came early and he only survived for two hours and he died. And this was like heartbreaking. Our last chance basically, to hold your baby and to watch him struggle and die and that was like the worst thing I've ever been through.

And even in this horrifying situation, if you like, there were moments of joy, moments of blessings and the blessings that our little boy brought to us. It took me a few weeks. when I now think on my little boy, I think, what he left behind, like the changes he created in me, the changes he created in my husband, our surrogate parents — were extremely close now —  to our surrogate parent family, to their children. My husband is a firefighter, and he's now become an officer, which he wouldn't do before. Because he was like, “Ah, I'm too shy, and too, whatever.” And now he's like, “No, my little boy didn't get to live, I'm [0:05:48]going to live full bore, I’ve suffered.” So little Joseph bought blessings in a way that we couldn't see at the time. And I don't wish that on anyone. And I certainly don't want to go through that again. But it could either break you or you can try to find something in there that has meaning for you, and a reason for you.

And so, no matter what you're going through in life, try to think of it as “Well, this is going to be a part of something that I'm meant to be learning and I can turn this around.” And that's I think your job when you're on this earth is to try and have these lessons and become stronger and better and not let it break you.

Announcer: Welcome to the H.V.M.N podcast, what we do with our bodies today becomes the foundation of who we are tomorrow. This is Health Via Modern Nutrition.

Geoffrey Wu: Hey, everyone, welcome to this week's episode of the H.V.M.N. podcast. And this is going to be an especially fun one because my guest today is Lisa Tamati. I had a wonderful conversation on her podcast. So, for today, we're going to flip the script, flip the table and have Lisa share her experience.

In a lot of my conversations over the last few years now, when you really talk to World Class specialists in one specific domain, they oftentimes touch and become generalist experts across a multitude of domains. I think that's just the world that we live in. To be really, truly world class. One can't just be in that one specific tunnel. One really gets the best practice from a number of domains. I think Lisa really encapsulates that for me. So Lisa, great to have on the H.V.M.N. podcast.

Lisa: I’m so stoked to be here. Geoffrey, it was wonderful to have you on my show. And yeah, now the flip-the-script is going to be exciting. I can't wait to do a deep dive.

Geoffrey: Yeah. One area that you have a tremendous amount of experience and I have a little bit of a taste of is ultramarathons, long distance running. I think that seems to be your initial entry point into high performance, human physiology. Love to hear your background story of how you got into it, competing Badwater, some of the most prestigious well-known ultramarathon races. What was your journey into this specific field?

Lisa: Yeah, thanks, Geoff. So I've been doing ultramarathons now for over 25 years, and I've had, in that time, the chance to sort of run and compete and train over 70,000 Ks in that time. So that’s three times around the equator, if you add it all up.

I've done mostly desert so I've done a couple of thousand kilometres in the Sahara Desert from the Moroccan Sahara, a couple of times to the Tunisian, Arabian Desert, the Libyan desert, Niger, Jordan, also the Gobi desert in China, Death Valley in the USA, a couple of times, in different parts of the outback of Australia, which is closer to home. And I've also at one stage ran right through New Zealand, doing 52 marathons in 42 days, raising money for charity. So that was another a really amazing mission.

But the funny thing about my story is that I'm a so what from average, as far as talent goes. I don't have any special genetic abilities. No Dean Karnazes or David Goggins, or anything like that, as far as ability and speed go. But what I did have was really, really super strong mindset. And when I decide I want something, I just do it until I get good at it, even if I'm hopeless at it at the start. And certainly, I was asthmatic as a child, so I was in and out of hospital, I had a very poor lung capacity. Very poor v02 max. So I wasn't really made or built for this type of thing, but I never let that stop me doing anything, really.

Geoffrey: Yeah, so what kicked it off? When I talked to a lot of folks that end up being, just long careers in endurance sport, oftentimes, it's realizing that in middle school that they were really get the 5k compared to the other middle schoolers?

Did you have a story like that where you ended up running and you realize, “Hey, I'm pretty good at this. Everyone else is tired, I'm pretty good.”

Lisa: That was absolutely bloody, hopeless setup. To be honest, Geoff. What happened is I was really into sport, I was a gymnast as a kid. I was good at gymnastics. And so, I did that from the ages of 5 up to about 15. And I was on sort of track to be a national sort of gymnast.

But then when I went through puberty, I grew up too tall, and I grew up very muscular and athletically built. And I just didn't have it. Once I went through puberty, I knew I just wasn't going to make it.

And so that was a real blow to me because that was all I'd done. And I've grown up in a family, where the expectations were really, really high. And I was expected to represent my country and I was expected to be the best at everything that I did. I had amazingly loving, amazing mum and dad, but my dad was also very hard on us. And that, I think having that early childhood — being pushed into that really strict discipline that gymnastics requires, was, in some ways, a really good learning curve and other ways it was quite damaging.

So as a young woman — so from 13 to 15, before I started, stopped, gymnastic — I really struggled with my body image. And I was the heaviest, biggest girl in the group, if you like and, and was always constantly ridiculed for that. And so they that started a path of self-loathing, and very low self-esteem.

And when I failed at gymnastics, I thought, “Well, that said, I'm never going to represent New Zealand.” But I sort of had that dream in back of my mind the whole time. And then in my early 20s, I met an Austrian guy who was cycling through our country here and had an accident on our mountain, got hit by an avalanche. And my mum, being the sort of mum she was, she always picking up strays and bringing them home and looking after them, as mums do. And she bought this young gentleman home, and we fell in love and doing lots of adventure stuff around the world. So we cycled around 25 different countries, climb mountains, quiet, did all that sort of adventurous stuff. And that sort of opened my eyes to the world of travel because I've never been outside my country prior to that — into the world of adventure and to what I was capable of. But it was also at the same time, a very abusive relationship. And once again, I was never good enough. I was never what I was supposed to be. It was it could never live up to the expectations. I wasn't fast enough, strong enough, good enough. I was accused of having bad genes.

And this sort of culminated. I did a crossing of the Libyan desert, an expedition with a partner and two other guys, this was a really extreme illegal crossing of the Libyan desert. And we only had like two litres of water a day because that's all we could carry on our backs with this distance of 250 kilometres that we had planned. And no one had been through — no Europeans have been through this part of the desert at this stage. There were no maps. We managed to get some pilot maps of US military don't ask how. And we started off on this crossing and two litres of water a day, and 40 plus degree temperatures with 35 kilo backpacks. It was a recipe for extremely on the limits.

Geoffrey: That’s a serious rock. Yeah, that’s a serious rock. Wow.

Lisa: Yeah, especially when I was like 58, 59 kilos at the time. So, it was more than like, now, nearly two thirds of my body weight. And this ended up being not only physically really demanding, but the boyfriend ended up leaving me in the middle of the desert on day four.

Yeah. So that you can imagine you have your relationship breakups. We've all been there and done that, but to do that in the middle of the Libyan desert, in the middle of this crossing. And the reason was, we were all suffering and very irritable, as you can imagine, when you can't, you got no water. And so, timbers were short, and he wanted to move faster. And we were doing a book on the expedition. So, photographing it, and he was a perfectionist, and wanted to set up all these photos and wanted me to help.

And the leader of the expedition said, “Look, we got to keep moving. So, you can take your pictures, but you got to keep up with us.” And so he wanted me to help with that. And I physically was just unable to run around, do anything extra other than put one foot in front of the other. And so that went down like a ton of bricks. And after a couple of days of frosty temperatures in between us, he said, “That's it, I'm leaving, I'm heading off over the sand dunes. And you can stay with the other two guys.” And that's it, the relationship’s over.

So that was a real deep turning point. And it sounds quite funny now, but it wasn't at the time, I can assure you, and we're in desperate straits by this time. The dehydration is so, so bad. I don't know where the heat is going to survive, whether we're going to survive, what's going to happen. And in that moment, I really learned I had to compartmentalize things in my brain. So I had to be able to function despite the emotional turmoil that I was going through. And that was a really good lesson to learn so that you can actually still function and do what you have to do to survive to get out and not fall to pieces. And of course, I owed it to the other two guys, too, who are like, “Oh, my God, we've got a hysterical woman here. Now, what do we do now?”

Geoffrey: This story deserves more attention. I mean, just from the emotional capacity, obviously, a breakup with a long-term partners of emotion is a massive emotional turmoil. And then it sounds like there was questions of even surviving. So-

Lisa: Yes, there was.

Geoffrey: – at the time, did you think that everyone could have died? How serious? I mean, it sounds like it was pretty serious. But did you have regrets or thoughts racing through your mind? Were you like, “Hey, like, why did I do this? Am I going to die in the desert? I'm stupid.” Can you walk us through that kind of a thought process there?

Lisa: The thirst was just unbelievable, like the suffering that goes on when you don't have enough water is really, really horrific. So your mouth swells, your lung, your tongue swells, you just got no saliva, so you can’t eat, obviously. And we were covering around 45 kilometres a day, or we were trying to so that we would have enough to get out. So we had a schedule that we had to keep. And we were trying to avoid going in the very hot hours of the day, but there was often no shade, so you just like sort of put your backpack up and try and hide under it.

 

So it was extreme, as far as would we survive, and it was a military bad area as well. So leaving the Oasis was really dangerous and getting out from outside the military camp and then disappearing into the desert without being followed. And by the same token getting back. And so you had all that sort of stuff going on as well. If you've been caught in this area, you would have been in deep, deep trouble, shall we say?

So, there was there was all sort of elements to it. And then, when the partner left, I had to just stop thinking about whether he would survive or not. I knew that he was extremely strong and strongly fed, but all it takes is one twisted ankle. And you're gone, there was no there's no one to come and rescue you. There's no one to help. There was no outside help at all. And there was no water on route. So there wasn't much chance of survival of anything went wrong. Now as with the other two guys, and the leader of the expedition was a survival expert from Yugoslavia and he was amazing. All I had to do was really follow him and do what he said. And that's what we did.

On day five. I had real we had a sand storm hit and just as the evening broke, and it came in so suddenly. Because I was doing most of my drinking the water in the night-time and because that's when your cells could take it up. If you if you drank during the day, it would just evaporate out of your body really quickly. So, we were trying to drink the bulk of our supply for the day in the evening. And I'd also been squirreling away part of that two litres a day. So I was actually only getting a litre and a half and because I was so scared of running out so that I had more left in the backpack than I was meant to have and on this particular night, the same storm came in, and I didn't get to drink my water because it we just got an hour sleeping bags and just hunkered down and we basically got buried by the same storm. You couldn't do anything for the next five or six hours while this pass through.

And then at about three in the morning, we got up again and we got going really quickly and I only had a small drink and then I got underway. And finally, by now I was not really feeling the thirst anymore and was walking in the early hours of this morning and I just kept passing out and my body was starting to shut down. But Elvis was on such a mission to get to the certain point that we he'd see on the map. So, then he would know where we were exactly and that we would survive that he was just on a mission, he wouldn't stop to let me get water out of the backpack. And they keep pulling me back on my feet. I'd go along for another 20 minutes, and then I pass out again, they’d put me back up again, I'd walk along again, the pass out again. This happened like five or six times, until we got to this place where we could see this — it’s called the barbecue depression.

So you were up on this table top, landscape, and then you're looking down. And so, then he knew where we were. And by now I was hallucinating. So, the, the rocks were becoming monsters. And I didn't even know to ask for a break. If that makes sense. All I was doing was functioning by putting one foot in front of the other, and I couldn't think straight, my vision was closing in, hallucinations, and so on.

Geoffrey: What kept you going? I mean, it sounds like — was it just reptilian survival instinct, just one foot after another? Was there something higher? Or like, “I'm not going to die today?” Where were you in this state? It just sounds like you are so —

Lisa: So close

Geoffrey: — baseline functioning, right? It was just like you're essentially just baseline survival function at this point?

Lisa: Yeah, at this point, there was no higher thinking at all. There was just, I'd been doing this for days, just following the footsteps of the guy in front of me. And that was what I was mesmerised on, this little white flicker of his shoes in front of my eyes. And that's all I focused on doing because just could not think any higher thoughts. When you run out of glucose and when you run out of water, your brain function is it's like being completely out of it.

So I was just doing everything I could just to stay upright and keep moving forward and not thinking and not being intelligent. You're unable in this case to make clear decisions or anything like that or to say, “Look, hey, I need to stop and get some water guys.” And you're on the sort of mission, and you're just going, and it's just pure survival that keeps you putting one foot in front of the other. And then once we got to this place, he helped me down these cliffs and we got to the bottom and he said, “Right, I want you to get out your water and you're going to drink and we're going to sit here for the extra hours. And you're going to slowly drink your whole day supply because your body's starting to shut down. And he said to me, “Look, he'd been in the desert a lot.” He said “I've known of people who have died in the desert with 20 litres of water and next to them because they've been squirreling it away for so long.” He said it's better in your tummy than in the backpack. In other words, I hadn't been having enough just to keep surviving and you can actually die next to a whole big ton of water because you're squirreling it away for too long. And then your body shuts down, and then you're gone, can’t go too far.

So the upshot of this adventure was anyway, we did get out, we did survive, obviously. I had some major kidney damage and health problems after this. The boyfriend also got out and there was a lot of undoing of misty relationship stuff, as you can imagine, in the aftermath. But that was a time in my life where I went and never again, when I let myself be controlled by anybody else. Never again, am I not controlling my own destiny.

And it took me two years to do anything again because my body was just wrecked and emotionally, I was wrecked. But then one day I was reading this magazine. And it was about the Marathon des Sables, which is a very famous ultramarathon in Morocco. And I was reading the statistics and comparing it to what I've been through the Libyan desert. So we've done 250 Ks, we'd had 35 kilo backpacks, two litres of water a day, right? And Marathon des Sables is touted as, that time, as the toughest race on Earth — 240 kilometres, 9 litres of water a day, doctors, journalists, airplanes, helicopters support—

Geoffrey: You’re like, “This sounds easy. This sounds like a luxury clamp glamping.”

Lisa: [laughs] Luxury cruise.

Geoffrey: Yeah.

Lisa: Yeah. So, you had to carry everything in your back, as far as the food goes, but that was like, between 9 and 12 kilos. And I thought, “Hang on a minute. I reckon I could do this.” And so, I hadn't even run a marathon but I signed up for this 240 k event. And that was the first time I'd done something on my own. As girl on her own now, it was really important to me to prove to myself that I wasn't useless.

And I went and I did this race, and I just absolutely loved it. I did really, really well. I didn't win anything but I was in the top 10 woman and I just had an absolute ball. I was surrounded by people who were positive and encouraging and empowering, and there was 700 people in this race and the whole camp moves every day. It was like a huge military operation. It was just mind blowing.

And then after that experience, I started to get my self-confidence back that had been on the ground for the last two years. And I became addicted to that experience if you like because I was like, “Ugh. Give me more of this, this is awesome.” And I was good at something for change. I was told I was doing really well, and the other people were so uplifting, that then I became like addicted to ultramarathon. So, then I just signed up for every race I could possibly find, interested in one after the other, and sort of worked it out as I went. And so long story short, that's how I got into ultramarathon running.

 

Geoffrey: Now I understand why he put mindset as first year as well, the ultramarathon. I mean, it sounds like almost from your perspective, your mindset and that emotional and cognitive resilience to go through when you were 13 and 15. As an adolescent, athlete towards some of these survival trips. Would you say that's accurate? You almost see yourself like a mental ninja or a mental resilience expert ahead of being an endurance athlete at this point?

Lisa: Yes. Yeah, definitely. Certainly, it's become that over the even the last 20 years, especially. Whereas like I've said, I never hadn't had a lot of talent. But I realized I had I did have really good mental strength when it came to certain areas, especially in sport, I had a mindset that I could just go and I would go to the point of killing myself, nearly, which also became a problem on occasion, because you just wouldn't pull out when you should pull out. And now I'm a lot wiser and don't advise people to do that. And now we coached, you know, hundreds of athletes around the world, and we try to get them to pull out way before that point.

You know what the greatest benefit of doing all these ultramarathons and pushing your body to the limits like this is that it teaches you mental toughness, it teaches you resilience, it teaches you that failure is a part of the game as well. That if we only go through life being scared of failure, we're never going to take risks, we're never going to push the envelope, we're never going to find out what we truly capable of. And if there's one thing I've learned through this whole journey, it's that failure is a part of pushing to the limits. When you're going to that sort of level, even in business or in whatever it is in life, you are going to have failures and that is part of it. And you have to get over that and you have to learn resilience.

And I think resilience is a word that is totally underutilized in our society. And something we should be teaching all our kids about the resilience to be able to get up when you're knocked down. The resilience to be able to believe that you can still achieve them when things are stacked against you or when people are telling you no and it's impossible. That’s the thing that has helped me most, running from A to B and some artificial human made race, if you like, or climbing a mountain or doing any of these things, it's a conduit to learning who the hell you are.

Geoffrey: Yeah, it's an artificial construct. It's like a game to actually bring out that resilience at that person, that character, that integrity. This is something I've been thinking a lot about, I'm glad you're bringing this up. For the specific resilience, where do you think that resilience came from? Do you believe — I mean, this might be like a nature versus nurture question — do you think that there's some sort of genetic disposition that predisposes certain people towards having this kind of emotional and cognitive resilience? But also part of that is that sounds like through your childhood, through your environment, through your upbringing, you had pretty early, shall I say, traumatic or formational experiences as you're competing that probably gave you some sort of either a trauma that you healed really well from, or gave you a lot of experience that people never actually face with like a happy normal childhood or whatever you want to call it. Do you think those were powerful formational experiences that led you down that path?

How do you think about it, when you coaching clients coaching different folks? Obviously, you realize that some people just seem tougher than others, right? Like you hear like, yeah, I think your story is reminds me a lot of David Goggins’s story who was a former Navy SEAL, ultra-endurance athlete, had a lot of trauma through his childhood. How do you synthesize your personal experience as well as the experiences that you've called and pulled through your coaching and your journeys around the world?

Lisa: Yeah, that's a really good question in and yes, like David's stories are incredible and his childhood — terrible, obviously. And it's what who made him who he is, a lot of it.

I actually think there's a combination of nature and nurture. So I'm right into epi genetics and we use a system called Ph360, which is looking at different types of people and different health types. And I am what they call a crusader, which is someone who's always going to be dopamine driven and on a mission, tendency towards addictive behaviour, whether that's running stupid distances or eating too much chocolate. Same sort of thing. And so this, I think — and my brothers often say to me, “Why are you always on a mission? Why are you trying to conquer the world all the time in everything that you do? Why can't you just sit back and relax and have a day at the beach like we do?” And I say, “It's like asking a table not to be flat, this is who I am, this is my makeup, this is the way I made, and I can't do anything much about that.”

So I do think that a big part of the drive and the determination is genetically predisposition. Like mum said, even as a three-year-old, I would be off, diving into the pool when I couldn't swim, or I just had no fear, I would be doing stupid stuff. As a kid without any sort of idea of what the heck I'm doing. And that is always been characteristic of my nature to just jump into things and work it out on the way.

 

So I think there is a big portion of genetics. And by the same token, I think the combination of that with some very harsh experiences. And these are experiences, too like, don't get me wrong, the self-esteem, the lack of confidence in after that relationship, there were massive depression, suicide attempts. There’s a lot of staff that are not going into the details have to come out the other end, if you know what I mean.

 

So it wasn't like you're just like, wow, the super resilient person who just gets back up again. It certainly wasn't in that young years, when I didn't have the toolkit, either to be able to cope with the emotions that I'm feeling. And when you're younger, you've got a whole lot of hormones and stuff going around, and very dramatic, as you know, with all teenagers are all dramatic. I was probably super dramatic.

 

So, there was a lot of stuff and this is a process. And I'm old now, it's very easy for me now look back at the journey. I'm 51 going on 18, I still think I’m a teenager. Looking back over that time and going, actually, I can see the progression, I can see how I developed I can see the highs and the lows, and it all makes sort of a sense now, if you like. And we don't always have that benefit of hindsight when you're in the middle of it, all you know is that you're depressed and you don't want to be here anymore.

 

But if you can actually look at things from a longer term perspective and go, “This might be a part of making me who I am.” And now every situation that I get into that really blows me to pieces or is really hard or tragic, and I've been through quite a lot in my life, I now look at it and the first thing I try to think is where is the learning here? Where is the silver lining? What is it that I'm meant to be learning from this experience? And how can I turn this into a positive?

 

And it doesn't always come to me quickly. I mean, last year, we had a situation with my husband and I've been trying to have a baby for four years. We've lost one when I was 46 in a miscarriage. And then I had a surrogate mum, and we were over the moon, we thought we were finally going to have a baby. And six months into it. Our little boy, Joseph, suddenly came early, and he only survived for two hours and he died. And this was like, heartbreaking. Our last chance, basically, to hold your baby and to watch him struggle and die. And it was it was it was like the worst thing I've ever been through.

 

And even in this horrifying situation, if you like there were there were moments of joy, moments of blessings and the blessings that a little boy brought to us. It took me a few weeks. But when I when I now think on my little boy, I think what he left behind, like the changes he created in me, the changes he created in my husband, our surrogate parents — we’re extremely close now to our surrogate parent family, to their children. My husband is a firefighter and he's now become an officer which he wouldn't do before because he was like “Ah too shy and too whatever.” And now he's like, “No, my little boy didn't get to live, I'm [0:35:06] going to live full bore, I’ve suffered.

 

So little Joseph bought blessings in a way that we couldn't see at the time. And I don't wish that on anyone. And I certainly don't want to go through that again. But it could either break you or you can try to find something in there that has meaning for you and a reason for you. And so no matter what you're going through in life, try to think of it as “Well, this is going to be a part of something that I'm meant to be learning and I can turn this around.” And that's I think your job, when you're on this earth is to try and have these lessons and become stronger and better and not let it break you.

 

Geoffrey: Yeah, well, I think that's an incredible framework that you've really, I think, internalized and really test it to the limits, right? How do you turn every single injection, eruption, happenstance that occurs in one's life? And how do you take the positive from that, and it sounds like you've been able to really internalize it so well, that you're really testing the bounds of, of human experience there.

 

Lisa: I think, and also, I mean, we've gone pretty deep, and it's pretty emotional in this topic. To lighten things up a little bit. I mean, I've had the most crazy adventures and most fun, running things like Death Valley in the US, which is a really well known race that you probably know about. And our friend, David Goggins has done Dean Karnazes and in doing those events, where it's just been absolute highlights of my life to have those achievements.

 

So by the same token that you have these horrible things such happened to you, and you have to get through them, then you have these amazing experiences that were obviously challenging and hard and the discipline and all that sort of stuff that you learn along the way. But these are also life changing moments where you've achieved something, like Death Valley was a dream for 15 years of mine before I actually got there and got a slot in that race and had enough money to go.

And the boyfriend that left me in the Libyan desert, he'd cycled through Death Valley in the middle of summer. And so, he was always like, “A year, I cycled through Death Valley.” And so in the back of my mind, I was like, “One day, I'm going to run through these valleys” like —

 

Geoffrey: I’m going to show him

 

Lisa: — later [laughs] I’m going to show him, and I did. I did. I ran through it twice, I've done it twice and it was a crazy — that was another life changing event for me because it opened up the world I ended up doing a lot of documentaries after that books and so on.

 

So, there's been some amazing things, and this is the beauty of life. We don't have to be stuck in a box. We have the ability to reinvent ourselves. I mean, you Geoffrey are a prime example of somebody — Stanford University, computer scientists, now you're just creating a new you in a new world and a new direction that actually is what you want to do now. And none of us have to be limited anymore and I certainly not this day and age by one profession. Like, I write what I do, it's everything from podcasting, to filmmaking, to book writing, to coaching, to mental toughness courses to everything. And none of that is a contradiction.

Geoffrey: Yeah. I want to step back and just maybe turn us into more of a culture commentary because I feel like a lot of modern society and culture is, at least I sense, there's a lot of its form of anaesthesia, just numbing, kind of an existential angst of why, what is one's purpose? And then I think there's also a big stream of living vicariously through others, right? People aren't doing the Death Valley run themselves, they're watching you, Lisa, doing that Death Valley run — are watching and living through other people.

Lisa: And that is a hallmark of our time, really. With all the movies and social media. It's very easy just to sit on the couch and think, “Wow, I've just been to all over the place.”

 

Geoffrey: Right, and I think it's a little bit of both because I think a lot of people have this, they live vicariously through others, which gives us that excitement, but it's also the anaesthesia for the day to day, boredom or anx of not being satisfied with what they're doing. I mean, do you sense that with the broader cultural context of our times?

 

Lisa: I think there's a real massive disconnect nowadays from the way human beings used to be — so out in nature all day, digging the fields, hunting deer, building their houses, doing whatever, pushing the limits exploring. We don't have to do any of that anymore because we live in a world where it's all that's all done for us. And yet we live in the stressful times of computers and technology and crazy jobs and a lot of confinement. And we're going from one box of in their house to another box in the car to another box at work, in an office. And all of us as disconnected us from our true roots in our ancestral way of being and this is at odds with our DNA, I think, and the way our bodies are meant to function.

 

And so I think this is causing a disconnect, especially with young people who don't know that they have to get outside and get in the sunshine and get their vitamin D on their skin and get away from those damn computers and video games and all that sort of stuff. And so, when that happens, we have all sorts of problems come up, hormone dysregulation, circadian rhythms are stuffed up, woman with their cycles are stuffed up. We disconnected from nature. And I think the more that we can get outside, get back to some very basics that the human body needs.

 

So I run my businesses, I'm 24/7 sort of thing around, going for it all the time, but I make sure every day I get time to train in nature push my body out in the physically outdoors, and connect with the see the forest, the mountains, wherever I can. And even if I've only got 10 minutes to sit in the city park, I know that it's important for my soul to be able to connect with nature. And that's important on a hormone level, it's important on a personality level, and all of these areas that are just being neglected now.

 

And we can sit at home and be entertained 24/7 on our devices. And this is a huge danger, I think for the human race because we shouldn't be living in the matrix. We need to be out there actually experiencing it ourselves, getting in the water, going for runs, walking in the park, whatever it is, and interacting with other human beings on a eye-to-eye level. I mean, we luckily have this technology, and I can connect with you, which I never would have been able to do in the past.

 

But by the same token, it's important that I go today, and I see my family and I look them in the eye and I have that social interaction with them. And all of these things are missing from many people's lives. So there's the element of loneliness, there's the element of all these dysregulation that's going on in our bodies and our circadian rhythms, and hormones, and so on.

 

This all leads down a track of very often depression, being dissatisfied in life. And then maybe you're in a job that you feel trapped in or you don't have a job. You don't know what you want to be. We have to create our own framework and our own destiny, and we have the power. We live in a time where we can actually — through this amazing technology — access so many things that we never could have before. There is no reason for any single person to not be doing something on a mission, creating their own business, doing something on the side to get them out of the job that they don't like, whatever.

 

But it's up to you and your mindset to understand, there is no white knight in shining armour coming to save you. You have to make things happen. And you just do that, obviously. You just decided I'm into the keto and the intermittent fasting, right, and I don't know the whole story, obviously, I'm going to go and make this happen. Then you start a new business and you started the business and sold it at 23, you know, like I didn't know which way was up at 23. To be honest.

Geoffrey: I think if you look at just how every single story, every single interesting, whether it's historical figure, everyone started from somewhere and someone decided to do something, and it compounded and grew and you learn over time, right? And I think one interesting, maybe first step, to inspire people to build that mental toughness, at least for my experience was doing some of these longer runs.

I remember the first time some of my colleagues at H.V.M.N. who are marathoners and triathletes, they kind of just challenged me casually do a half marathon. And never was a good endurance runner and the notion of running for an hour was just seemed like very intimidating. And I imagine for most people that are casual athletes, casual folks that go the gym, running a mile on a treadmill is like a pretty solid day, warm up or pretty solid effort. But I think what I took out of that experience and having done a couple ultramarathons was that going back to your point, I think is more interesting for me as a mental challenge than a aerobic bout. It just being in your own head for a couple hours for three hours, four hours, five hours, not listening to music. That's almost a forced meditation, in some perspective.

Lisa: It is. It is.

Geoffrey: And I think, especially in our day and age, you never are really alone without your devices for a 2, 3,4 or five hours. I think that's an interesting little small entry point into tapping into that notion of resilience and self-actualization.

So, I'm curious to get your thoughts on that route, but also just going back to the notion of creating one's own destiny. And I think just from a historical perspective, you look at all the great historical figures — from a Steve Jobs to Genghis Khan — everyone was some child with some interesting upbringing and they figured out some things went well, they made some mistakes. But I think the thing is, I did they didn't really stop right, I think your story is definitely a story of not stopping.

Lisa: Yeah, congratulations for stepping up to those challenges and doing those runs. Because the thing is, when it's the same as when, like, someone might look at you and go, “Wow, what a brain and he's super intelligent, and I could never do that.” And I bet you just when I'm just going to take this one step at a time, or start my degree or do this paper or do in suddenly you will start to expand, doesn't it? And you're capable, and then you find out, “Holy heck, pretty amazing what I've achieved.”

And it's the same thing with running, you start off and we coach 700 athletes now, and I've coached thousands over the years. And I've taken people from running from one lamppost up to running hundred miles. So, I know that process. And you start with people, you don't talk to them like “One day, you're going to run 100 milers”, you start with them like, “We just got to get to that lamppost down there and I'm going to teach you the way to run and the way to breathe.” And a lot of people don't even know how to breathe, and then they suddenly realize, “Oh, heck, I actually can run for half an hour, I thought that would be impossible.” And once you have those initial successes, you get the breathing correctly, you get and taking smaller steps, for starters, you teach them a few technique things, and then they get that there's that those first initial wins. And that's where you start. And then within weeks, you can have them running the first 5K, often. If they're healthy, normal people, they just don't know how to run. And all of a sudden, now the horizon is lifted to that level. And then you repeat that process up to 10 Ks up to 20KS and then they run into a brick wall, and they don't know how to get from a half marathon to a marathon. And then you show them the way through that and they may have a couple of failures on the way where they run out of glycogen. And you deal with these things as they happen.

And then all of a sudden, they're signing up for the first ultra, and then the world's open to them, then they understand that this is just one foot in front of the other, having a good coach, having good structure, not burning yourself out, doing things in the right order, getting your recovery, doing all of that sort of good stuff. And then all of a sudden, the horizons are lifted. And this is a beautiful thing when you cross the finish line or something like Death Valley, it is a moment that is a combination of in that case, 15 years’ worth of work to get there. And you've stood on the shoulders of all your teammates, you've learned so much about who you are along the way. It's not just about that journey, and then you're capable in your life, there is nothing that is going to hold you back. There is no limitations into what you can do.

But you also have to realize you have to be willing to pay the price for all of those things. You have to be willing to go to the [0:48:44]anx degree, you have to be willing when you did those runs, I bet there was times where you're in a lot of pain and your suffering and your body's screaming at you why, Geoff, just sit down? Why are you doing this? Who are you trying to impress here?

Geoffrey: Yeah, I remember that. One of the first half marathons is like it was on the team lunch, I think on a Wednesday and then, my former colleague Brianna, who wrote for Great Britain and converted to doing Iron Mans was like, “Hey, you should do a half marathon this week.” And I'm like — just like running around the Embarcadero in San Francisco — I'm like, it's like mile like seven and like, “Why am I doing this? Like my feet start hurting?” It's just like by herself, everyone, all the tourists are just like confused like, why this person's like running like these back and forth along the Embarcadero. Maybe I don't want to be overly conceited but I feel like at a certain point, like humans were just designed to be able to run 5, 10 miles. And I feel like in a more healthful society should be almost table stakes to be able to just blast out 10 miles on a dime, right? Like, I think I would love to live in a society where that just tables where you would expect people to be able to walk across the street? Any healthy person should be able to run a few miles.

Lisa: Yeah, I mean, obviously you've got disabilities or whatever, it's different. But if you're just a normal, healthy human being, then yes. There’s a book go by my friend, Chris McDougall, Born to Run. And that's all about the fact that humans are born to run and we had a TV series along this line that we tried to get off the ground, we got the pilots down, and we looked at, in historal stories of long distance running in different cultures all around the world, from the mountain [50:37] to monks to the Kalahari Bushmen to the Navajo Indians to the Maori in New Zealand, all of these ancestral people covered huge distances on foot. Whether that was running walking, but they were moving pedestrian, that's fit what we are. We’re made, were born for the stuff. We're probably not born to do 100 miles, [0:50:57]veins, to be honest, like I think we do those things because we want to find out where the limits are, but we all made to be doing 10 to 20Ks a day. I truly believe that that's what our bodies.

I often get asked, “What are you be wearing at your joints?” My joints are fine, and I've run 70,000 Ks, and I don't have knee troubles, and where the problems come is when you don't do your strength training, when you don't do your mobility work. So, in the past that would have been working in the garden and stretching and lifting and all of those things that we often just run and then we come sit at a computer. And that's a bit of a dangerous combination.

Geoffrey: Yeah, I think the argument that running is bad for your joints is definitely a misconception, right? Like, when you actually have looked at studies, that's basically an untrained person going from zero to 10 miles, and it's like, yeah, you don't expect someone that's untrained to be able to become like a computer programmer without – some probably some ego damage, not necessary physical damage, or you go from not being able to bench press 200 pounds is expecting someone to just lift a lot of heavy weights.

Lisa: Yeah. And that is actually a bit of a danger. Like I see people going on — I'm an ambassador for a race next month, my husband's running it as well. It's an 80 K, and I'm watching some of the people who have signed up in in the Stryver[52:19]  accounts and then not training and I'm like, “Oh, shoot, we're going to have carnage.” Because you need to prepare your body. Like going out and running a half marathon because you're a fit young man, and you do other stuff, you can get away with it. But that's not what like if you were to extrapolate that and go “Well, next week, I'm going to run a marathon”, well, then we'll start running into trouble because you do need a structure and build up and periodization and all those other good things, too. Because your ligament, like your cardiovascular system will do it — no worries, your ligaments and your tendons will not.

Geoffrey: Like it's not used to the pounding.

One thing that I wanted to ask about, it’s actually, I'm curious in terms of talking to folks who have done incredible endurance feats is the mindset during the bout, and I think you reflected upon it just a little bit earlier, where in the moment, there's oftentimes we're in pain, you want to stop, you want to quit. I remember a conversation with Pete Jacobs, who was an Ironman World champ, talking about trying to harken back to a notion of gratitude of love and trying to pull up that emotion as he's trying to finish some of these longer races. I'm interested in some of your mental tricks as you're doing Badwater your, your hundred miles in, it's really hot.

Lisa: You're sick and dying [laughs]

Geoffrey: I mean, autopilot survival mode. Yeah. Are you trying to recall a happy moments? Or are you more of like a David Goggins, where you trying to recall like painful hate hateful moments? Are you a Zen monk? What are your tricks?

Lisa: I've got a few tricks, definitely, and it's a bit of all of the above. The gratitude one, he's a bit of man, I find it quite hard, and at one I'm definitely a bit more David Goggins style. [laughs].

As far as, especially in my early days when I was trying to prove something and wanting to be loved and accepted basically and being okay. And so a lot of the motivation here was to prove that I could and that I was strong and that I was not useless. And that's a really — I don't care even if it's a negative motivating factor, if you like it some negative rather than the gratitude one — but it's a powerful one because you will pull out all the stops. You can hear that person's voice in your head going “You're useless.” And you're like, might be breaking down and you might be in hell pain you're going you but I cannot let that I cannot let them win, I cannot give up. And that can be a powerful force.

Now later on in my career, it became more things like doing things for a charity and especially during things for a particular person who had a disability or something, that would get me going. Because I'd be like, “Well hang on”, I've run for kids with cancer and things like that. Then you start to pull on other things, like, “I'm so grateful, I don't have cancer and get over yourself, because these kids are dying of cancer and going through chemo and all of this, and they're putting a brave face on. Get your shit together”, basically. And so you put things into perspective.

One of the couple of the other tricks I use is, if I was really in a desperate situation in a race, I'd say to myself, things like, “Okay, you've just crashed in a plane in the middle of the jungle, or the desert, or wherever you are. And you've got to run 200Ks to save your mother because she needs help. And she's stuck in that plane. Now, you're exhausted, and are you going to quit? When your mother's life depends on it? Or are you going to find the power to run another step?” And the answer was always, “I would not give up I would fight, I would find another way to take another step.” And therefore, you can do it. It's all a matter of the motivation. It's all a matter of how bad do you want this thing. And if somebody, one of your loved ones life depended on it, you can bet your bottom dollar that you would run that 200 K or that hundred mile or whatever it is, you wouldn't give up. You’d die trying, wouldn’t you?

And that when you can pull those resources out of yourself and fight through, there’s this constant battle. So when I'm running along, I'm often got this battle, what I call them, the lion and the snake and you've got the lion who's going “Come on, you can do it, you're so strong, and you're amazing, and you've got this.” And all the positive people that have been in your life represent that line, and then you've got the snake on the other side going “You’re useless, you’re never going to make this. What are you thinking? You couldn't do this, sit down, no one's going to care.” All of this sort of baggage things going on in your mind. And as the day wears on, and the nights or the days wear on, this battle gets bigger and louder and stronger. And this snake tends to get more and more control and you're just hanging on for dear life trying to not let that snake bite you.

Like when I ran through New Zealand and I had 2250 Ks ahead of me. And I've been busy, so busy with the logistics of it, I hadn't actually thought about running what it takes to run 500 Ks a week. And I got to the start line, and then all of a sudden it's set on me like an elephant and I had a panic attack. And my mum was — and this is like five minutes before I meant to start I've got all the media, I've got the crews, I've got everything right, been planning this for four months, raising money for charities, etc. And I just had a meltdown, I went over to my mum, and I'm bawling and I can't breathe and I'm having a panic attack and I go, “Mum, I can't. I can't. 2200, I can't do it and cry my eyes out.” And she like, mum’s puts them in a bear hug and she says, “Stop, stop, stop stop. I want you to think about getting to that power pole up there. That's all you have to do right now. You don't have to run 2250 Ks, you have to run to that power pole. And then we're going to get through the first half an hour. And then we're going to get to lunchtime, and then we'll see.” And by doing that she pull my focus back into the here and the now instead of projecting into the future, which was overwhelming and terrifying. And that's how we broke it down step-by-step. And there were many times along that journey with a pain was just so intense, and my body was breaking down, and I just could hardly even got to a point at one stage where I couldn't even walk without sticks. And I had to let alone run.

I managed to just keep moving forward. And all of a sudden, after two weeks, my body hit the absolute rock bottom and then it started to actually improve again, it was like — and I've heard other ultramarathoners like Charlie Engle and Raisa have crossed the Sahara. Say, it gets worse, worse, worse, worse, worse. And then you hit the rock bottom and it's almost like your body goes “Well, she hasn't quit. So we better get our shit together. We better get organized here because she's keeping going anyway, we're throwing everything at her and she's still going.” And then I actually got better and better as the whole time went on and got stronger. And by the end of that race, well that run was actually stronger than when had been in the first two weeks, which was really bizarre to understand.

Yes, these are these are some of the tricks like you know, association and disassociation, like taking yourself off to your happy place. I often go swimming with whales in my head, someplace, it's completely away from what I'm dreaming. And then if I have a crew which is some races you do, they’d be telling these stories and trying to keep my mind occupied so that I just keep out of my own body. And then other times I'll be in my body and checking in with it and saying, am I drinking enough? Have I had my electrolytes? Have I had my whatever — enough food? So, you're doing all that checklist stuff going through your head.

So, it's a combination of all these things to keep fighting through the hard moments, don't for a minute believe that you get to the Zen state of flow, and you stay there, and that's it. And you're just amazing. There are people that do. And like the guys that run the self-transcendence race, 3100 miles from New York City. That's what they're aiming for this zen state of transcending their body, I've never got there. I tried and I would have, are there moments of it, or even a couple of hours of it, we know completely in this flow state where I can even feel my body, it's like a camera, like, my eyes are like a camera, and I'm just floating through the air. But those times the short loads done fortunately for me because I haven't cracked the code. I haven't probably meditated enough to get there. But it is probably there and it's probably doable.

Geoffrey: Definitely an interesting spiritual, I think, concept I think I've tapped into very rarely as well, or just everything just feels easy. And it's like, wow, I could just do this forever. And if you can hold that, that seems like it would be a magical if you want to get tapped into that consistently.

One of the things I thought was interesting was this notion of just breaking down decomposing a large problem to smaller and smaller bits. And I think this is an adage, or a maxim that I think everyone has heard about, through teachers or stories. I think one thing that I've found through people that really live well-live lives is that you have such visceral experience, pain, scar tissue that anchors that adage to a real experience. And I think that when I step back and think about all the different — whether that's Zen Cohen, or these books with all these best practices and best tips — they're very curt, nice little encapsulated sentences, but they're really almost raisins, or all the juice behind those simple statements of “Hey, break down the marathon into just running to the next lamppost.” But someone who's never done that is like, “Oh, of course, that makes sense. I get it.” But they actually don't get it. And it sounds like you've collected so many of these adages with just truly a broad spectrum of life experiences both very, very positive, and some that are quite sad and quite unfortunate.

A kind of opening up, I mean, are there other kind of interesting adages that you just feel like you have real a depth of understanding, because you've just lived through it?

Lisa: Yeah, and you’re so right. I mean, sometimes it's a good Instagram posts that you see with little quotes, and I've used them too, and you don't actually — it's hard to convey the actual experience. And until you've actually lived through it — and these things have a real value, like breaking things down into minor chunks and keeping your focus close to you and so on. But it is hard for someone who hasn't experienced that to actually know what the hell you're talking about until you're faced with a situation. But the more you learn about the stuff, then when you are doing your next marathon ultramarathon, Geoff, you will have more of these tools already in your head and you say “Oh, Lisa said, have a go at trying this.” And then you try it out in your own body and you realize, “Hmm. This is working, I'm going to work more on this aspect of this tool.” And you do get better at things once you've actually had the experience yourself.

I did want to share one really life-changing event with your audience if I may, Geoff, just go into the story of with my mum.

Geoffrey: Please.

Lisa: Yeah, so throughout the interview, I've mentioned my mum a couple of times as being this amazing, wonderful woman and she's always supported me and all my crazy endeavours and so on, and never ever limited me in my belief of what I can do or was just an amazing woman. And she four years ago had a aneurysm which is a bleed in the brain and was rushed to hospital. We got that horrible phone call rushed up there, mum's collapsed. The ambulance driver said to the doctor, I think she's having a stroke. The doctor decided to ignore that and said “Ah, she's just having a migraine”, which was an absolute disastrous misdiagnosis, if you like. |We spent six hours in the [1:04:22] ED there, not knowing I got caught out. I didn't know what to ask for. I didn't know what was happening to her I knew she was in deep trouble in the doctor was just ignoring us. Painkillers weren't working. She was in extreme pain.

And I had a paramedic friend who crew for me on many of my races and I rang her and said, “Please can you get up here? I don't know what I don't know what to ask for. But there's something major wrong with mum.” So she came out and took one look at her and since she's having a neurological event of some sort, went and got the doctor and shook him out of his stupidity. And to get her a CT scan right now. She's having a stroke or something like that.

They took her through after six hours and had a CT scan and it came back blood right throughout the brain, aneurysm. And they didn't expect that she was going to live, it was horrific state of affairs by this time. And that experience was for me, like my mum's life's hanging in the balance. And I've been caught short not knowing what to ask for what to do and being too damn polite to push the doctors for more and it could cost of my mother her life. We had a we had another 12 hours wait for the air ambulance to come because they had to transfer her to another hospital because we live in a small town. And we didn't have the things, took 18 hours to get her into there. And in that time, and I just like, if I get a second chance to help my mum bring her back then I'll do everything in my power to to make this right.

And she had a operation, and she was in and out. She had two operations in the next couple of days. And she was in and out of a coma fighting for a life, in a critical condition, they didn't think she was going to make it. And in this time, I started to study everything about brains and aneurysms, and brain rehabilitation and everything I can possibly find on their wonderful world of the internet, Dr. Google. And I started like, I'm not going to be caught short again. And upshot of it was after three weeks, she stabilized and she was taken out of the ICU and she'd survived. But she had basically no higher function juice, she had a couple of words, but no real speech, she had no memory of who she was, what she was, or that I was her daughter, or anything like that. She had no ability to control any of your bodily functions, like massive mess of brain damage.

And after three months in the hospital, they said, “Look, she's never going to do anything again. Make her as comfortable as possible. She's 74, the brain damage is so extensive. We have to put her into a hospital level care age facility. And yeah, that’s it.” And as you might tell them quite a stubborn person, I was like, “No way am I leaving my mum in a place like that and I'm taking their home. And they said, “Look, you're not going to cope, she's 24/7, round the clock here.”

So I had a hell of a battle on my hands to get her home. And this time, I'm studying everything around, supplements for brain injury, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, sleep apnoea, all of these things that could be affecting her. And I worked out that she likely had sleep apnoea, and she was sleeping 20 hours a day anyway. The doctors ignored me again, I got an outside consultant who came in to sleep apnoea test, and it came back severe sleep apnoea. And she was knocking off her brain cells. And so we're not when we got that onto her and the CPAP machine, she started to have a little tiny bit more function. And I was like, right, what else can oxygen do?

Now I've done a lot of races or three races, sorry, at altitude in the Himalayas. And I know what it is to have oxygen deficit. And I had a situation where I'd been in one of these altitude training teams for a number of weeks, sleeping at night, and I'd been up too high at six and a half thousand meters. And I'd knocked off a lot of my brain cells and ended up with a hypoxic brain concussion myself, and ended up with infections going crazy because when your body doesn't have enough oxygen, it produces a lot a lot more bacteria and infections run wild and I was seeing this in my mum. And I'm thinking she's not getting enough oxygen despite the sleep apnoea machine and everything, what else can I do to get more oxygen? They wouldn't let me put supplemental oxygen on here. They said she didn't need it. And so I was at odds with the doctors from the get go. They were feeding her absolute crap.

Geoffrey: So I'm like, that’s basically corn syrup or something. I mean, if you look at the bags of the hospital, it's a bit of food. It's literally like corn syrup is one of the main ingredients. Kind of shocking, actually.

Lisa: It’s shopping for brain injury, actually,. [1:09:05] do you find that? No, because when you put glucose into a person who has a brain injury, it suppresses their own ketone production. And the ketones are the only things — when you have a brain injury you have a metabolic dysregulation where you can't use glucose. So, by giving someone glucose you're actually suppressing the little amount of ketones that they do have and that was all of their brain was running on and now they're giving a glucose right and Ensure and all this crappy stuff.

 

I didn't know that at that time. But this is why research is important. I now know that. I did start to put her on fish oils and a keto diet as soon as I couldn't get her out of hospital — high fats, good MCT oils and ketones, exogenous ketones, etc. Long story short, we were finally got her home, after a massive fight at the hospital to get her home. I had to get my brother who looks a bit like Dwayne Johnson to help me convince doctors to give us the resources we wanted which is just a caretaker in the morning and someone in the evening so to help with their personal cares and we got her home.

Then I've been studying hyperbaric oxygen therapy. And now this is a super powerful. People, go and research with hyperbaric is amazing for brain injury, also for gangrene and burns, diabetic wounds. They use this as a totally underutilized therapy. And I found out that this could help brain injury, I studied the work of Dr. Hatch in America, who has written The Oxygen Revolution, which is a book on hyperbaric. And I thought this is mum's chance, if I can get her a hyperbaric access to a hyperbaric chamber, I could maybe save her.

And of course, we didn't have one in our hometown or so I thought. And then I found a dive company that had one because they use these for dive accidents when divers get the beans and we have a port in a commercial dry facility. And so I approached these guys, and I said, “Can I use your facility? This is my situation.” They said, “Yep, sign a legal waiver. We know the power of hyperbaric and we know it's powerful. We'll give you access to it.” These are kind amazing people gave me access to this chamber.

So as soon as I got her out of the hospital, I took her down to this factory, strap her on a forklift and put her into this big hyperbaric chamber. Everyone thought I was completely nuts — excuse me — as you can imagine, this fragile delicate lady could hardly even sit. Stuck her in this chamber, we had two to three sessions over the next few weeks. After 33 treatments, she started to come back live, all I can say is that she started to wake up, she started to have words, she started to remember who I was, she started to move her arms. And she wasn't getting up and walking, but she was doing things. I could see a flicker of life in her eyes again. And I'm like, “Oh, my God, this is working.” And then they had to take the chamber off on a contract and I lost access to it.

So then I mortgaged the house and I bought a hyperbaric chamber, but I bought a mild one, Geoff. That only goes to 1.5 atmospheres, that was all I could get access to. But this is perfect for brain injury, actually. It’s almost as good, I'd say it's about 90% as good as what the big ones are for brain injury because you don't need the really low dips. For brain injury, you only need 1.5.

So anyway, I put it through another 250 sessions over the next couple of years and I still continue to put her through. As she started to come back, I had more to work with. So then, I studied Functional Neurology. I studied everything to get her balance and spatial awareness back. I studied nootropics, which you know a lot about. I studied the keto diet and keto and did physio with her.

So, I developed a protocol and a program basically an ADR program every day that I started to put it through as she started to come back. And I've tried to stay one step ahead of her therapy. Now I'm no doctor, but like you, Geoff, I just go hard out into the research and do deep dives and find the answer. When I don't have an answer, I go and I find somebody who knows the answer. And one of the selfish reasons I started my podcast was so that I can have amazing people like you and doctors and scientists on there so that I could get access to the best minds in the world for this thought.

Geoffrey: Don't give away our secret, right? Don't give away secrets. That's honestly one of the best perks of having a podcast it's you get the great meet great people. It's true.

Lisa: It is. It's the greatest reason to do a podcast. And so I would get these experts in different fields and I would learn from them and a lot of people helped me with different aspects that they were specialists in. And together we've created a miracle. My mum — now four years on — my mum is completely normal. She is reading, writing, walking, she walks a couple of kilometres a day. She goes to the gym six days a week. She has a full driver's license back, she's regained her peripheral vision even, all her reaction tests are back to pre-aneurysm levels. And this is 78 years old, Geoff. Like she's this, neuroplasticity in someone of this age is pretty unheard of.

I had one example of this and Dr. Norman Doidge’s book, the brain The Brain that Heals Itself, of Dr. Becky Rita, who was a scientist whose father had a brain injury, a massive stroke, and he had brought him back and he was in his early 60s and he had taught him. So I knew that somebody in the world had done what I needed to do, but they were like 14 years younger. So I had nobody really who could pave the way for me, but I had at least that sort of information.

And so now mum is a full driver's license, full power of attorney back over her life, full independence. We still work every single day. Unless I'm traveling for work, I'm working with her, pretty much five to six hours a day now. And we still have to keep the pedal to the metal, there’s a few things like her foot drags, and so on, on the right side, and she has a few issues. But I've got my mum back for crying out loud.

It's an amazing, miraculous story. And I was so amazed at this whole journey that I ended up writing a book and it’s called Relentless, it tells the story of bringing my mum back and the lessons that I took from the running. So there's a lot of the running stories in there. But it takes some of those lessons and how I applied it in this real-world situation. Because if I hadn't had that bit resilience, if I hadn't had the belief that the human body and mind are capable of far more than what the average person thinks it is, then I would have listened to the naysayers and I would have given up. But because I've seen crazy things like blind people running across the stairs [1:15:55], someone on crutches doing the marathon the sob lays that with multiple sclerosis, I've seen a dude run across the valley with one leg. I've seen people with hip replacements, people with broken back. And I know the power of the human spirit if they don't give into the naysayers.

And that's why I was so passionate to give back getting this book out because I wanted to share those mental insights plus all the protocols that I used for them, and, and give other people hope, who are going through whatever the difficult time is that they're going through whatever crisis.

Geoffrey: Yeah, it's an incredible turnaround and an incredible end result here. I mean, my understanding of the prognosis is that if you kind of miss diagnose an aneurysm for that length of time, it's, I mean, either deadly, or I think what it sounded like from your conversation with the doctors, they essentially were saying, “Hey, we're kind of giving up, she's going to be a kind of a vegetable, like, kind of a expectation – 

Lisa: That’s exactly the words they use.

Geoffrey: And then to turn around and see that now, what, 78 she's a fully —

Lisa: Fully normal

Geoffrey:  She's back. Have you gone back to the doctor? Have you tried to get like a —

Lisa: Get them to try it [laughs]

Geoffrey: have you turned this into a case study? Yeah, I think it just like — this is not even a buy in or show that, “Hey, you're wrong.” This is more of a, “Hey, this is something that a lot of people could potentially learn about to adjust a standard of care and to help improve the medical system. Right?” It's just like, what you have here is a very interesting “n equals one.”

I think the critics would say, well, it's not randomized. There's not controlled, fair enough. Fair enough. I think that's like valid critique, it's fair critique. But there's clearly some signal here. Right? There's definitely something that was anomalous in terms of the turnaround, can we actually take lessons and take protocols, and potentially get them through more of a randomized control trial to see if this replicates and across a broader population. But at least there's some signal and hope for any open minded scientist that's trying to say, “Hey, like, let's improve the current standard care.” I'm curious in terms of as you've been sharing, and working their publishing process, have you come back to the traditional standard of care practitioners, clinicians, and help them adjust potentially their standard of care?

Lisa: I've desperately tried to do that. And one of the reasons, the main reason for this book is to try to get a movement around this because everybody who's going through any sort of brain injuries is facing the same problems, whether it been on a lesser scale or like this.

And what I found is there are so many amazing doctors in the USA and unfortunately, they're in the USA. People like Dr. Hatch, I had a Doctor Kabran Chapek on my podcast two weeks ago, who I highly recommend for your show, actually, and he has written a book called Concussion Rescue. And I was reading just the chapter titles as I first got this and going, “Holy shit. This is exactly the protocol I've used.” And it's been put into a book by a doctor, thank god! And I was absolutely ecstatic to have him on the show. And he ratified all the things that I had been through, and he is desperately trying to get this information out there because this is relevant for people with dementia and Alzheimer's, just as much as it has relevance for stroke in aneurysm victims and concussion victims.

This is right across the board information for brain health. And so I have failed in the local doctor level. But I'm starting to be asked to speak at medical conferences. I've just been invited to speak at the world [1:19:39] outside mother and dementia conference. And I'm hoping that that will actually happen because I'm desperate for the doctors to understand the limitations in our system. And a lot of it is a lack of resources and it's also sort of institutionalized ways of thinking and the siloed ways of thinking.

And now there's some major Doctors like Dr. Chapek, but also like Dr. Mark Hyman, David Perlmutter — Dr. Perlmutter, and Dr. Austin Perlmutter, and they're putting these protocols together now, and they're putting them in the mainstream. I don't know if you've heard of the Broken Brain series by Dr. Mark Hyman, and Dhru Purohit, from Broken Brain, the podcast, and the work that they're doing, that type of information is starting to now permeate through. But it's so slow, as you know, even in this day and age with social media and the power or all this. I am one voice, I am one story. And the doctors who generally go “There's not it's not relevant, there's no clinical studies.” We didn't have spec scans. We weren't because we didn't have access to any of that to categorize, to see this process. So I don't have any proof except the videos that I took, my little amateur iPhone videos that I took all the way through this process. And I'll send you a little, just a two-minute clip, Geoff that you might want to put in the notes. And you'll see mum going from not being able to sit properly to mum being able to do a little 50 metre run and they can see for themselves that that transformation. And it's unfortunately very amateurish, and very, iPhone family videos. And that's all I've got is proof, the rest is just my anecdotal stories.

But I'm hoping that I can add my voice to the movement, I can add my voice to those of like Dr. Hyman and co, who are changing this world, and even what you're doing in the nootropics space. This isn't just about brain injury, but optimal brain performance in the keto space. That information is you combine a keto diet with hyperbaric and nootropics, and you got a combination for a great healing potential with brains?

Geoffrey: Yeah, I think that's what's exciting. There's clearly much more to be understood and much more science to be done. And I think this is how, if you get a look at the history of science, who knows if the Newton's story of an apple falling on his head, made him think about gravity, but it's just these observations, these interesting signals that guide us towards testing and understanding and making good hypotheses and testing them. And I think that, especially in this faceting and turnaround story, it's clearly signal here. And it's clearly, it sounds like it's being replicated across other folks who have been going through similar protocols.

And it's okay, hopefully, we can have this body of evidence that build momentum to hopefully change standard of care. And I think that's like a hold. I think, ultimately, what we all want to hear, it's not like, I don't think you have like a dogmatic reason to make something up. But just like, “Okay, this really helped my mum, other people should know about it.”And yes, if people want more evidence, and let's run the studies, people want to try something because they're desperate, here's a potential option. I think that's ultimately what I believe it's like, the world's going to bend towards truth. And if we can accelerate us, like the humanity as a whole, to get to truth faster, because it will help more people. I'm all about that.

Lisa: Exactly. And this is what the power of the day and age that we're living with these podcasts and in all the research that is now becoming available, we're starting to see the power of  just people movement — this is a movement of the people to start to change the systems. And this is not to, we had a discussion on our show about some failings in the system, and we're not pointing the finger at any one particular person here.

But what I want people to take away from the story is take ownership of your own health. Research. Even if you're not science nerds, like Geoff, and I, go and find the research, do your due diligence. People spend more time buying a car and researching the car than they will for their own health. And for me, that's ridiculous. You know, instead of just taking somebody's word for it, your local doctor’s word for it, that this particular drug is going to fix all your woes, how about just looking a little bit deeper and finding out your own research and taking ownership of your own health and then implementing some good basic healthy structures to your diet, your nutrition, your exercise regimes, the things that we know work for a start.

And then we can't wait. I could not wait with mum’s situation for the clinical trials to come through. I had to weigh the risks. And I did play doctor and a lot of cases, I had to weigh the risks and make educated decisions. And a lot of it was like, “Well, what's the alternative? The alternative is she's going to die very soon.” So it was that much of a desperate situation that I was willing to take some risks to get some something back.

And I've been criticized immensely for a lot of stuff that I did and for pushing my mum so hard and putting her through a torturous regime of training. But I believe it no matter how old you are – whether your 5 or your 105 – people need challenge. They need goals, they need things to be working towards. When we make older people are treasured valued older citizens who should be treasured in our society and who often aren't, when we make them feel like your past your useful day and you're no longer useful. And we just want to make you comfortable because that's what we do as humans, but we're not going to actually treat you like as a person with a history and a story and wisdom to share. And it’s terribly patronizing and horrific.

And I come from the Maori culture in New Zealand, where our elders are very respected and loved and revered for their wisdom. And unfortunately, that's not the general society that I live in. It's within my culture, but not within the wider New Zealand culture and I believe in other places as well. We have this attitude, “Well, you use your past, you're used by dates.”And certainly when it comes to resources and medical funding, I had to fight like crazy for the resources because she was an older adult. And for me, that's we've got to do better. We've got to do better. And we've got to respect our elders. They're the ones who made us who we are and we we’re all heading there, we're all getting older. Do you want to be treated like that? Ask yourself, is that what you want for yourself? For your loved ones? Then, we've got to do better and our standard of care, I think for older people. And that's a completely different topic. I could rant on about, too.

Geoffrey: Absolutely. I think the title of the book, Relentless, very apt title. Not just in terms of the relentlessness in terms of taking care of your mum, but also just your life story, just not stopping, being relentless. And it sounds like you have a number of projects going on all the time.

So what's in store for you in 2020? For the folks follow what you're up to? Where do what are some of the upcoming projects they're really excited about in 2020 and onwards?

Lisa: Yeah, look, I’m really excited from a business perspective. So, we're doing deep dives and we teach already epigenetic testing and do that with our clients. And now we have an online run training program. So we're expanding that and growing our business, from that point of view. We're looking at a couple of Venture Capital Partners and going into the pro aging space and looking into developing programs around piecing together some of the pieces of the puzzle we already have in place with our epigenetics and DNA testing and supplements, and so on.

So we're not quite sure where these negotiations and things are going to take us. But it's really exciting times for us as a company, and we're starting to expand and grow quite fast in and it's bringing its challenges with it as well, as you would well know. And it's exciting times for me on that front. So I'm not doing any long distance running myself personally anymore because I have to look after my mum seven days a week and run these other companies. So that combination is enough for me to cope with at the moment.

And that's okay, we all have times in life where sometimes I catch myself going oh, I’m a has-been, I can't do it anymore. And then I’m like, “Pull yourself together, you've got a mission now. You're on another mission and that requires sacrifice and that sacrifices I can't go off and expeditions at the moment and do more crazy stuff.” But that's okay, I've done enough. And my body certainly said to me a few times I've had enough. So yeah, really excited for the time of the day and age that we're living in, in getting to network with people like you is just gold. It really is. I really love this sort of stuff, just it inspires me to keep going.

Geoffrey: A hundred percent. Well, I can't think of a better note to end on. So Lisa, really, again, I had a lot of fun on your podcast and equally as if not more fun, actually just listen to your story, reinvigorated, re inspired, of what we're doing what you're doing.

So thank you for taking the time. We have to get in touch in person and maybe do a little bit of a light ultramarathon together.

Lisa: Absolutely. I would love to train you out for one. Anytime you need some help and structure and coaching, reach out to us. And  I hope now that we will stay connected Geoff because I really admire the work you do on this podcast. I love listening to all your interviews, it's some gold and here. And I just love being around, inspiring and inspirational people who are out there empowering other people and doing what they love.

So I think we'll stay connected for sure and I'd love to invite you to New Zealand at some stage when you want a holiday, so let me know.

Geoffrey: Alright. I'll hold you to that. All right, thank you so much.

Lisa: Thanks!

Outro H.V.M.N: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of the H.V.M.N podcast. If you're interested to learn more about H.V.M.N and our offerings, visit hvmn.com/pod. Please remember to subscribe. And if you're watching this on YouTube, please give this video a like and remember to hit that bell to get notified whenever we post. We also have a dedicated Discord server which you can join by first taking a short survey and then I'll personally send you an invite to join the community. The link to that survey will be in the description along with any other relevant links, and we'll see you all next week.

Outro (Pushing the Limits): That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure

to rate review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

It’s typical for athletic performance to decline with age. (And, athletes may experience signs of accelerated aging caused by intense training.) If you’re worried about your declining performance, start looking at how you train and what you eat. We may not be able to reverse our chronological age, but we can guide our bodies through the ageing process. 

Did you know that there are longevity strategies specifically for athletes? These strategies consider long-term performance, health, and muscle growth! 

In this episode, Dr. Elena Seranova joins us to discuss how ageing can affect our bodies and our athletic performance. She shares her strategies, from supplements to lifestyle changes, that can help athletes combat the effects of ageing. If you’re overwhelmed by all of the information out there, remember: you need to build a good foundation first. Start with eating right and sleeping well; from there, you can eventually incorporate Dr. Elena’s other recommendations.

If you want to learn longevity strategies for athletes and how to improve athletic performance, then this episode is for you!

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Discover how ageing affects athletic performance and why athletes may experience signs of accelerated ageing. 
2. Learn longevity strategies that will support athletic performance and your general health, like how to activate your autophagy pathways.
3. Understand that longevity is a process of building good habits; you can start out by focusing on the basics, like diet and sleep. 

Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up

For our epigenetics health programme, which is all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mental performance for your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.

Customised Online Coaching for Runners

CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, and Run Longer  Without Burnout or Injuries

Have you struggled to fit training into your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or you have done a few races but struggle with motivation or injuries?

Do you want to beat last year’s time, or finish at the front of the pack? Do you want to run your first 5-km, or run a 100-miler?

​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle? 

Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.

Health Optimisation and Life Coaching

Are you struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world? Then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you.

If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, contact us at support@lisatamati.com.

Order My Books

My latest book, Relentless, chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum, Isobel, with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless.

For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.

Lisa’s Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements 

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Episode Highlights [02:32] Why Athletic Performance Drops as We Age

• The main cause of athletic performance decline is mitochondrial decline. Mitochondrial decline is linked to senescence cells. 
• Senescence cells stop dividing and do nothing. As we age, we may have 5-20% senescence cells in different tissues. 
• This causes inflammation and causes the mitochondria to function improperly, thus increasing reactive oxygen species within cells. 
• Nuclear DNA is usually packed in histones, which preserve genetic material. However, mitochondrial DNAs lack histones, making it prone to oxidative stress and mutations.   
• As we age, our epigenetic processes become less efficient; it becomes a vicious cycle with more reactive oxygen species and less capacity to deal with them. 

[08:23] How Else Do Our Bodies Respond to Ageing

• Ageing declines autophagy, which recycles cellular organelles. 
• When there’s nothing to clean up dysfunctional mitochondria, problems with energy generation arise.
• Athletes who have exercised intensely their whole life will have worn-off tissues and lactic acid buildup. 
• Remember, exercise is good, since we want some level of oxidative stress; however, we don’t want more oxidative stress than what our body can cope with. 
• Lisa shares how running ultramarathons accelerated her ageing process, wear and tear, and inflammation. 

[12:29] How to Support Autophagy and Athletic Performance? 

• Intermittent fasting is when people have a certain feeding window a day. After eating, mTOR switches off and AMPK is activated which allows for autophagy.  
• If you want to build muscle, Dr. Elena recommends eating after exercising so you can activate mTOR which helps with muscle growth.   
• You need to create a cycle going of mTOR and AMPK since autophagy recycles cells back into amino acids, which can help cells build new proteins. 
• Don’t create a feeding window that’s too narrow; you need to have enough fuel for your body. Eat chicken, meat, and foods rich in amino acids. 
• Make sure you're sleeping properly, as this can affect your muscle growth. 

[18:30] Supplements to Support Autophagy and Longevity

• You can also support autophagy through supplements like berberine. 
• Dr. Elena recommends adding supplements to specifically target senescence cells. Senolytics help kill senescence cells while senomorphics modify the senescence cells. 
• Quercetin added with Vitamin C can help kill senescence cells. By itself, quercetin can produce toxic metabolites, so it needs Vitamin C to serve as an antioxidant. 
• She also recommends taking their quercetin product with NAC and acetylcysteine to boost glutathione, a potent antioxidant. 
• Quercetin has many benefits including anti-inflammatory properties, and can be used to combat cardiovascular disease, fight seasonal allergies, and can fight cancer.    

[26:51] How to Take Quercetin

• Quercetin can be found naturally in fruits and vegetables like strawberries and onions. 
• If you’ve never taken compounds for their senescent action before, start by taking quercetin at 500 mg every day. After a month of taking it, check in on how you feel. 
• You can also implement detox protocols with a higher dosage of quercetin(around 2 - 2 ½ grams). If you want to implement this protocol, start with 5 days first. 
• Quercetin can be combined with 500mg of chlorella to boost the detoxifying reaction.
• People with kidney diseases should consult with a doctor before taking quercetin.  

[32:43] How NMN Can Help Athletes 

• In addition to mitochondrial decline, athletes can experience loss of endurance and muscle loss as they age. 
• Dr. Elena recommends increasing your fasting window depending on your goals. 
• You want more oxygenation in your tissues to preserve endurance and muscle. 
• Dr. Elena offers an NMN product that can increase both endurance and prevent age-related muscle loss.   
• This can help increase insulin sensitivity, activating longevity genes and DNA repair. 

[36:37] How to Optimise NMN 

• NMN functions optimally when it’s attached to a methyl group. Unfortunately, our body’s methylation process also declines with age. 
• NMN should be paired with TMG, as it is a rich methyl donor. 
• When you combine NMN, TMG, and quercetin, you’ll optimise your performance and endurance.

[39:11] Longevity is Your Biological Age, Not Your Chronological Age

• Many people over 40 are insulin resistant. Insulin resistance is a gateway to biological decline. 
• You can check your insulin resistance by checking your waist to hip ratio. 
• After the age of 40, it’s much easier to experience hormonal dysfunction. 
• We need to make a conscious effort to improve our health. Ageing can cause issues to spiral if left uncontrolled.  

[42:50] Be Careful With Your Food

• 80% of adults in the west are insulin resistant. 
• The food industry worsens the condition by offering so many processed carbohydrates. 
• Many people have false ideas about what a healthy diet is. You can’t have too many carbohydrates and sugar, even if they’re coming from fruits. 
• Cut down on carbohydrates, avoid processed foods, and take good oils. 

[45:21] Start with the Basics

• Start with the basics. You don’t need to add supplements immediately. 
• Just eat clean and good food. There’s no such thing as a universal diet. 
• Taking cold showers in the morning can improve hormonal balance. You can start with just 10 seconds of cold exposure. 
• Manage your stress levels and make sure you move regularly. 
• You don’t need to be perfect. 

[50:47] How Some People Live to 100 

• There were two hypotheses surrounding centenarians: good habits and the absence of high-risk genes. However, some centenarians were found to have bad habits and mutations for Alzheimer’s disease. 
• Centenarians have genes that mitigate risks from bad mutations. They also have low IGF 1 levels. 
• When people are young, IGF 1 can improve muscle and tissue growth, but it can be harmful when people grow older.
• Centenarians’ genetic combination allowed for IGF to decrease as they grow older. Listen to the episode to learn more about how centenarians’ hormonal processes are being regulated.
• Commit to regularly regulating and balancing your hormones. This process starts with clean food, caloric restriction, and exercise.    

About Dr. Elena

Dr. Elena Seranova is a scientist, serial entrepreneur, and business mentor. She has now founded multiple innovative biotechnological businesses. She first studied at the University of Ioannina with a major in Psychology. Dr. Elena then started a private practice before developing an interest in neuroscience.

Dr. Elena continued her studies and earned her Master’s Degree in Translational Neuroscience at the University of Sheffield. She now also holds a Doctorate Degree in Stem Cell Biology and Autophagy from the University of Birmingham.

Dr. Elena’s expertise in these fields led her to co-found the biotech start-up SkyLab Bio. She has written several peer-reviewed articles on autophagy.

Her latest business is NMN Bio. Her own experiences with supplements have inspired her to expand the market to include cutting-edge anti-ageing supplements. NMN Bio reaches New Zealand, the UK, and Europe.

Dr. Elena found her passion for drug discovery and autophagy. She has endeavoured to share this with the public through her research and work as an entrepreneur. 

To learn more about Dr. Elena and her work, visit NMN Bio.

Resources

• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! 
• Want to learn more from Dr Dom? Check out our previous episode with her: 
• • Episode 238 - Reverse Ageing to Live Longer and Healthier with Dr. Elena Seranova
  • Episode 189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova 
  • Episode 183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova       
• Want to dive deeper into longevity and work out a protocol for yourself? Take the Foundations of Longevity and Life Extension Online Course by Dr Elena Seranova and Jesse Coomer 
• Deep Nutrition: Why Your Genes Need Traditional Food by Catherine Shanahan, M.D. 
• Centenarians, metformin, and longevity | Nir Barzilai, M.D., Episode 204 from the Peter Attia podcast 
• Flavonoid Apigenin Is an Inhibitor of the NAD+ase CD38
• Therapeutic Potential of Quercetin: New Insights and Perspectives for Human Health
• Visit NMN Bio to know more about NMN supplements!  

Many popular diets and exercise crazes assume that they're going to work on everyone who tries them. However, every human being is unique. Health isn't one-size-fits-all. What works for one person may not work for you — it might even be detrimental! That's why we need to personalise our health programs to suit different body types.

Dr Cam McDonald joins us in this episode to discuss the importance of understanding your biology to personalise your health program. He talks about the role of genetics and epigenetics in determining your bodies' specific tendencies towards stress and food. We also delve into the different body types and what diets and exercises are most suitable for each one.

Tune into this episode if you want to learn more about personalising your health program based on your genetic make-up.

 

Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up

For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.

You can also join our free live webinar on epigenetics.

 

Online Coaching for Runners

Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.

 

Consult with Me

If you would like to work with me one-to-one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries, to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations.

 

Order My Books

My latest book Relentless chronicles my mum Isobel’s inspiring journey of defying the odds after an aneurysm left her with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/

For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.

 

My Jewellery Collection

For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.

 

Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:

1. Learn why personalisation is important in creating a health program for different body types.
2. Discover the role of genetics and epigenetics in determining your body’s specific tendencies.
3. Find out what kinds of food and activities are most suitable for different body types.

 

Resources

• Take the ph360 HealthType Test to discover your body type and get your Personalised Health Plan!
• Check out ph360’s website to learn more about their services on personalising your health program.
• Connect with Dr Cam: Website | Instagram | Linkedin | Email | Phone: 0411380566

 

Episode Highlights [01:31] Why Personalisation Is Key

• Every individual is different, but we keep applying the same health approaches to everyone. 
• Misalignment between the body and its environment causes diseases.
• Personalising your health helps you align yourself with your environment. 

[06:45] The Science of Chronobiology

• Chronobiology is how our biology interacts with time. 
• Examples of chronobiological processes are our circadian rhythm, menstrual cycle, and ageing.
• Our bodies have a rhythm that follows along with sunlight. 
• When people are active at night, it disrupts their system. This disruption creates hormonal irregularities, leading to diseases. 
• Listen to the full episode to learn more about chronobiological processes and how they affect our health.

[18:24] The Genetic and Epigenetic Component of Circadian Rhythms

• People have different chronotypes which are based on when their bodies can tolerate stress.
• Some people are ‘Activators’. Their bodies respond best to adrenal systems. In turn, they have energy that matches their strength throughout the day. 
• ‘Diplomats’ have bodies that respond better to their digestive and nervous systems. These people are more at risk for fluid retention, tiredness, and weight gain.
• Muscle and fat production relies on the hormones stimulated by food and exercise. 

[27:50] About Food Timing

• ‘Crusaders’ have bodies that are neurally-driven and are not prone to obesity.
• Because Crusaders are more likely to lose muscle, they are recommended to eat several small meals per day.
• ‘Guardians’ have thick joints and big muscles. However, they also have the greatest capacity to store fat.
• Guardians are recommended to have two meals per day (breakfast and lunch) and a very light, if not non-existent, dinner.

[38:41] Intermittent Fasting for Crusaders and Guardians

• Because Crusaders are always on the edge of their fuel supply, intermittent fasting will impact their stress levels more. 
• Crusaders should only do one day of intermittent fasting per week.
• Guardians, however, can go for extended periods of fasting because their rhythms are slower. 
• Being in a peaceful environment helps manage stress levels and makes intermittent fasting more tolerable.
• Intermittent fasting and autophagy do not necessarily work for all. 

[45:08] More About the Guardian Body Type

• Because Guardians have strong and resilient bodies, they’re more likely to survive if there were a lack of food supply. 
• A Guardian’s body is that way because in nature, they protect their community.
• ‘Sensors’, another ectomorph body type like the Crusaders, prefer nutrient-dense foods like vegetables.
• Guardians, however, like high-calorie foods more because they provide a feeling of safety.

[54:48] Dominant Hormones for Different Body Types

• The dominant hormone for Guardians is prolactin—a ‘caring’ hormone.
• Diplomats search for a balance in serotonin—a hormone that you get as a reward for pleasurable things. This makes them assess an activity carefully if it’s going to be rewarding. 
• Activators search for adrenaline, so they always want excitement and action.
• Crusaders' dominant hormone is dopamine, which creates drive and focus.
• Listen to the full episode to learn more about the different body types (like ‘Connectors’ and ‘Sensors’) and their dominant hormones.

 

7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode

‘We know that everyone's different, but then when we go to actually doing the thing, we apply the average, or we apply what we think is appropriate thinking that everybody else is the same. So we have this disconnect between knowledge and action.’

‘The mind is also on a clock of its own. Essentially, if you're exercising at the wrong time, you set up the wrong kinds of hormones, then you can actually create complete stasis in your health.’

‘There’s a full continuum of where people are. This is based on not just their wants to wake up. . . it’s actually as to when a body can tolerate stress, and how that stress should be placed on them.’

‘Whether you put muscle or fat tissue on, it's actually not to do with your food or your exercise, it's got to do with the hormones that those foods and exercise stimulate.’

‘It's not a one size fits all when you hear everybody talking about intermittent fasting or doing these things—autophagy, inhibiting mTOR, and all those sorts of things.’

'The reason that their (Guardians') body is built the way it is is [because] when we go through famine as a community, their body goes into conservation. They essentially start growing, or they start slowing down their metabolism so that they can provide food for everybody else.'

‘If you put your body in the right environment, get the right foods, eat at the right times of the day, work and do your mental stuff, you'll get health and you'll get optimal performance and you'll get longevity.’

 

About Dr Cam McDonald

Dr Cam McDonald has spent the last decade furthering his knowledge and skills to promote health in an easy and obvious way for people in all areas of life. He’s a dietitian and exercise physiologist, with a long-standing personal passion for health, genetics and environmental influences. His goal is to support all people to live up to their full physical potential.

Dr Cam has a firm focus on people becoming more aware of themselves, their natural strengths and their optimal behaviours for their best health. He is an informed speaker who has a passion for health and the inspiration to do something about it.

Want to know more about Dr Cam’s work? Check out his website or follow him on Instagram and Linkedin. You can also reach him through email (cam.mcdonald1@gmail.com) or phone (0411380566).

 

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Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

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To pushing the limits,

Lisa

 

Full Transcript of The Episode

Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.

Lisa Tamati: Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing The Limits this week. Today I have another very special guest, also a repeat offender on the show: Dr Cam McDonald, who is the CEO of ph360 in Australia. He is a exercise physiologist, as well as a nutritionist. This guy's a bit of an overachiever, as are many of my guests, It might add. And Dr Cam has spent the last decade furthering his knowledge and skills so as to promote health in a way that makes it easy and obvious for his clients. So Dr Cams blends his background as a dietitian and exercise physiologist with his long standing personal interest in health, and his passion for understanding the latest research in genetics, and environmental influence on health. Now, Dr Cam is one of my teachers, and he is a mind full of information on the way your genes and how your genes are expressing. So today we're going to be talking about all about genes, again, personalized health, how you can tailor things to your personal situation and your personal life. 

Before we go over to the show, I just want to remind you, if you want to check out our Epigenetics Program, please go to lisatamati.com, hit the Work with Us button and then you'll see all of our programs. And one of those is our epigenetics health optimisation program, which is all based on your genetics. And so you can understand and learn how to optimise your potential, your health, your performance, your diet, your exercise regime, and so much more. So check that out, especially after listening to this podcast, you're gonna want to check that out. So make sure you go to lisatamati.com, hit the Work with Us button and check out our epigenetics program.

I'd also like you to check out our running program, if you are a runner out there and you haven't got a coach and you don't know where to go and you haven't got a structure. Maybe you're doing your first five K's, maybe you're just starting out, maybe doing 100 miler, I don't care, we take them all. We do customize, personalized plans, based on your needs, your lifestyle, your injuries, your goals, and make that specifically for you. We also do a full video analysis to help you improve your form. And you get a one on one consult with me. And then ongoing support with the team. So please check that out. Check out the package, runninghotcoaching.com. runninghotcoaching.com is the place to go to, there. And check out our running program. Right now over to the show with Dr Cam McDonald for a very exciting interview.

Lisa Tamati: Well, hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing The Limits. I'm super excited to have you here with me again. Today, I have another superstar, Dr Cam McDonald, all the way from Australia. And he is one of our mentors and teachers here. He is the CEO of ph360.me. So people are listening out there, you've probably heard one or two episodes where we've talked about genetics and epigenetics and how to understand your genes. Well, that's what we're going to be talking about today. And Dr Cam is an absolute expert on this. So welcome to the show, Dr Cam. 

Dr Cam McDonald: Thanks, Lisa.

Lisa: Great to have you again.

Dr Cam: It's great to be here. It's been a long time between chats, but there's been an awful lot of interaction between. It's always been great.

Lisa: Yes, so you're our repeat offender on the show. But I think it was a good couple of years ago now. So I mean, meanwhile, we've dived deep into the world of epigenetics with you and learned from you and learned a ton of stuff. Way overdue that we had this conversation and started to share a little bit of your knowledge and the amazing things that we can now do with genetics and understanding how we run. 

So everything in regards to epigenetics and genetics is all about personalising everything to your specific set of genes. And this has really been a game-changer for us personally and professionally, for our athletes, for people that we're working with, in the corporate setting and everything because everything should be personalised now, shouldn't it? Should we start there? I think that's a good place. Why is personalisation key?

Dr Cam: Yes, I mean there's a number of reasons why we definitely should be personalising. But the first is that we actually have the knowledge now, that's one thing. We have an understanding of how we can actually do this. I guess for our long history, and I guess for the history of the people that are alive, the people listening to this right now, we always know innately, ‘I'm different to that person’. 

But then, when we go to recommendations. And when we go to how we go about our life, whether it be the job that we're sitting in, it's like, ‘You have to do this job in this way’ or ‘You can't do that great. We'll get someone else to do this job this way’. Like you must do this job this way. You must, ‘Oh, you're going to get fit? Great? You go to this gym, and you do this boot camp. Everyone goes to this boot camp because that's what is going to be great for everyone because the latest science says this’. 

And when it comes to food, it's like ‘You should definitely do this because this is what the average of everyone should do’. And so we know that everyone's different. But then when we go to actually doing the thing, we apply the average or we apply what we think is appropriate thinking that everybody else is the same. So we have this disconnect between knowledge and action. 

And so why we need to? I guess what we know now is that the timing of your food, the timing of your exercise, the type of exercise or foods that you're consuming, the type of work that you're doing, the types of interactions that you're having, if you don't get that right, it creates disease. If you align your body with its environment, then your body goes into a healing and recovery state, and you get healthier. But if you misalign, and that can just be getting up at the wrong time, and we see this with shift workers all the time—the longer that they do shift work, the more likely they are to die prematurely. 

And this is when you get a misalignment with the body and the environment. But the really incredible thing is now, it's not just that we all should avoid shift work, it's rather that some people are going to be better suited to it than others. And when it comes to every other domain of life, there's going to be something that is great for one person. Like a big Gatorade is going to be the best thing ever for a runner during their race for it’s in the mean of best thing ever, and I'm not attached to Gatorade as a brand. 

But let's say that you have some sort of electrolyte fluid as a drink. And that's going to be fantastic for a marathon runner 30K's in versus a person who's been sitting on the couch for the last six years and has a significant waist circumference and diabetes. 

Lisa: Disaster.

Dr Cam: That drink is diabolical.  And so, when we start thinking about personalisation, we start thinking about, well, ‘What's going to help this person align and perform’? Because if you misalign, it creates disease. So that's another motivation. 

And then I guess, as I started, we now have the understanding of how people are different, what people need to do about it, and we've got some really wonderful results on if we apply that to these individuals, they're going to get a great result for themselves. It's now the time that we can act on this innate knowledge that we've always had but do it in a very intelligent way.

Lisa: And do it in a very structured way. A great example of this is that the whole fitness industry was really run by people with a certain type of genetic combinations. And so we trained, and I belong in that group, and you belong in that particular group. We train people we like to train and how we see benefits. We see benefits from the way that we train—high-intensity workouts and getting up early and training. Well, that suits you and me, right, Dr Cam? Because we're very close on the epigenetics wheel, if you like, have similar genetic makeup. So that works for us. Whereas it doesn't work for someone on the other side, so who's more that of the endomorph type of body. 

So I've used this example before, but my husband, I used to make him get up at five or six in the morning and do a CrossFit workout when he's what they call a Diplomat. And now in that terms, which means he has a different set of genetics, basically, that is not suited to getting up at that time and doing that type of workout.  Both are wrong for him. From a chronobiological perspective, he should be in bed because his testosterone, his hormones are doing their thing at that time in the morning. So that was a problem. 

Number two, I had him doing a type of exercise that was wrong for his body type. His ATP doesn't replace as quickly, and his cells are doing back-to-back sets just seem to map on a stress reaction. So his cortisol would be up, and then it would be up for the rest of the day. And what have I done to my poor husband? I've made him actually put on weight and not get further and feel like crap all day. So whereas for me, that same class, that same set of exercises, that same time of the day, perfect, and I'm good to go, and I'm really rearing to go. So that just gives you a little bit of an example. 

So today, let's look at chronobiology because this is all about at the timings of when to do what. So can you explain what the science of chronobiology is, Dr Cam, and how it applies in this situation?

Dr Cam: Yes, absolutely. So chronobiology is how our biology interacts with time. And we know about this because we all get older—that's a chronobiological effect, is that we get older. But what's really interesting as well is that within because of the sun, and it's showing its face every day or so. It comes along at about 6 am and then leaves at about 6 pm whatever it might be. Because we've been living on this planet with this big stimulant from the sky, essentially our bodies have got adapted to things happening in a rhythm. 

And so, it's just like we wake up, and then we go to bed, we wake up and then, that's a daily rhythm. We have a menstrual cycle. We have ovulation. We go through the menstrual period, and that happens on a 30-day cycle. We then have our early life. We have our middle age, and we have our later life. That's another cycle. 

Even a yearly cycle as well, we have  the circannual cycle. And so, we have seasons. So winter, it gets colder, and our body does different things. And so, essentially, now that we understand that we got these different patterns of time that are occurring, our body is constantly responding to cues from the outside. 

And so where this work first came about was they started looking at shift workers instead of wondering why all of these people were getting so much more cardiovascular disease, diabetes. And they found that if you're waking up at night, and you're getting lots of light, and you're getting food at night as well—all of those things, tell your body, ‘Hey, you should be awake’. And so it wakes the body up. 

But you've got this momentum of a cycle that's coming from generations of being exposed to the sun and sleeping at night, and all of our physiological systems are actually setting up for us to sleep at night and rest and recover and do a whole lot of things that definitely don't require doing heavy work or digesting food as much. And so we get this disruption. We get things happening and things being signalled to the body that shouldn't be signalled at that time, which creates irregularity in the hormones that flow through our body. Our cortisol, our melatonin, our testosterone levels, our adrenal levels—all of those things get shifted out of whack when we give ourselves an artificial time input. So we want to—essentially, the first and foremost, the first thing that we gauge what time it is is what amount of light we have. 

Lisa: How much light, yes.

Dr Cam: Yes, and then when we get—when the sun comes up in the morning, it sets off this cascade of wakefulness. It takes us from dead asleep to awake in a very short period of time. There's a big hormonal shift that occurs to make that happen, and it maps into sunlight. And so, as we go through the day, we have this homeostatic drive of ‘The longer that I'm awake, the more I want to go to sleep’. That's a natural thing that we have. The more that you run, the more that you want to stop is another way of thinking about this one. So we have this—as the day goes on, you get more tired. 

And we then also have these rhythmical changes. Essentially, it's not the homeostatic drive for tiredness, but the circadian drive of tiredness, and you'll have peaks in your day, or maybe in the afternoon, you're firing. Other people are really, really tired that they wake back up at night. Some people are really energised in the morning. We have all of these different things that are happening throughout the day as well. So to simplify all of this, our body is designed to rouse with early morning light or rears with light. We then are meant to—essentially, our body is searching for the rhythm that suits our body. 

And what's really interesting, if you take light away from somebody—and I know I'm jumping all over the place, but I will bring this all together. So if you take light away from somebody. A great guy did an experiment on this way back in the day. He sat in a cave for a couple of months and with no changes in light at all, just exactly the same ambient light the whole time. And what happened was, his rhythm went to 24 and a half hours for a daily period. So what happens is, if we were to not have any sunlight input, we would run on a 24 and a half-hour cycle. And the was out of sync by a few days after a couple of months. 

Lisa: After a couple of months.

Dr Cam: He actually—and he thought it was only a month that passed, it was two months that passed. His time really—oh no he thought it was three months that passed. It was only a couple months because time really slowed down. And so what we know is that inside our body, we have a rhythm. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Dr Cam: But that gets reset every day with the sunlight. And so, and it actually keeps us on track with the hormones that have been flowing as a result of that sunlight. So sunlight is one time giver. And if we disrupt that, it creates lots of disease in that shift work. Not only does your waist circumference get bigger the more shift work you do, all of the risks—cancer, diabetes, heart disease—increases the longer you do shift work. 

Lisa: Wow. Wow.

Dr Cam: And what we see is if you disrupt a body for three days with bright light at night, they start looking like they get diabetes. Their insulin resistance changes. 

Lisa: Instantly?

Dr Cam: Within a few days, you can start disrupting these cycles of hormones, which makes your body say, ‘Well, there's something wrong with this environment. Why am I awake at a time where I shouldn't be? Well, there must be something wrong. Therefore, I'm going to start conserving. I'm going to start going into a stressed state so that I can escape and protect myself’, and diabetes is just the ultimate protection—starvation protection that makes you gain weight very easily. And so, after a few days, four days, you can actually start seeing some changes in metabolism if you're out of sync with your sleep alone, then four days to correct it. So you can actually get back on track very quickly. 

Now, light isn't the only time giver, there is also heat that you have in your body. Food is also a time giver. Exercise is also a time giver. And so if you eat regularly at the same time each day, your body will start falling into a rhythm of ‘I expect food’, and this is what happens when you change your diet. Some people go from six meals a day to two. Let's say they're doing some fasting or something like that. They'll be really, really hungry at the times that they were eating when they're doing six meals a day for about a week. 

Then what happens is each cell in our body has its own timekeeper as well. The master clock is coming from the sunlight, and then each tissue in our body has its own timekeeper. And so our gut takes about a week to correct itself, and then it starts getting on track with the new routine, and so then, it starts setting up for the new routine. Therefore food, it gives time to the body, it actually gives the schedule. And along with that food intake comes insulin release, hormone release, all of those types of things. 

But then the really important thing we need to consider is if you don't stimulate the body at the right time to get the right hormonal outflow, you start going into disease. And so, if you're eating food at the wrong time, you're stimulating these hormones just as if you were not sleeping at the right time. If you're exercising at the wrong time. Let’s some bodies are really, really well adept at tolerating stress in the morning. If you exercise, that's a stress. 

Lisa: Yep.

Dr Cam: You give your body that ‘Stress is coming now’. And if you do that regularly, your body's gonna say, ‘Okay, stress is coming now’. It prepares itself, and it deals with it quite well. But then if you take a night owl, and you give them that same stress in the morning, it gives them the time of stress in the morning, but their body is not set up for stress at that time of day. And so they start trying to compensate later through weight gains, like ‘I spent all of this energy at the time that I didn't want to. I wasn't set up for it, so I'm going to have to conserve my energy because something's wrong’. 

Lisa: That’s what I was doing to the husband.

Dr Cam: Yes, absolutely. So what you see in a practical sense—and I'll just say one more thing as well, that the mind is also on a clock of its own. And essentially, if you're exercising at the wrong time, you set up the wrong kinds of hormones, and you can actually create complete status in your health. As in it doesn't get any better even though you're working really, really hard or can sometimes take you backwards. 

And we're seeing this with some diabetes now is really high-intensity exercise in the morning, in some studies is indicating worsened blood sugar levels at the end of the day because everybody goes into survival of ‘Oh, this environment is really stressful’. So where you position things in your day…

Lisa: It’s crucial.

Dr Cam: ...sets a rhythm. But if that rhythm doesn't align with what your body needs in order to be in its best health, then it creates disease. And that disease, obviously, tracks down pathways of compensation and stress, and you end up with a body that has been getting up eating five meals per day, has been doing the early morning exercise, just like your husband. 

Lisa: Yes. They’re getting nothing out of it.

Dr Cam: And because they’re putting stress out in the morning, they're giving them too much insulin response throughout the day because their bodies just not designed to get five hits of it throughout the day. Some bodies are, some bodies are.

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: After 12 weeks, they've gained a kilo and got a bad knee. And they're wondering, ‘What the hell is going on’?

Lisa: And they've been a super disciplined person getting up. And I mean, just to give you a couple of examples of the set of my life because I like to put things into stories.

Dr Cam: Yes, please.

Lisa: So that people actually get the science. Six months ago I went through this terrible time with my dad, who was unfortunately dying and passed away in July. In the 16 days that we were in the hospital battling for his life, I was round the clock with him. Now my blood sugar levels went through the roof. So afterwards, I was showing like diabetic levels of blood sugars—fasting blood sugars because I was so out of whack and so stressed alongside of it. And it took me a good two to three months for me to get my body back into rhythm. So that was just 16 days of sleep deprivation, being up all night, hardly any food, in this case, was actually sharp throwing my blood sugar's up through the roof and the stress hormones that were coming out. So that's a really extreme example. And obviously, that was for a specific purpose. 

And I've seen this also with ultramarathons that I've done, that I've been going for days on end. You would think that a person who was exercising 24/7, around the clock, sort of thing for not seven, but let’s say two, three days, that they would lose massive amounts of weight, and so on. And I would actually put on weight when I did ultramarathon. So I typically lose it initially, and then I would have all this weight gain. And then I would have this response. And within a month, I would be usually heavier than when I started, which was really frustrating. 

Dr Cam: Yes.

Lisa: So this stuff matters, and this stuff is really, really important. And I've done podcast episodes already on circadian rhythms in regards to light and why we need to block out blue light at night time because, again, that's giving us a signal to stay awake and stopping our melatonin production. 

And the example there with the cortisol, right? We want cortisol. We want these stress hormones at the right times of the day. So there is also a genetic component to this. And this is where, what we do at ph360, and what we find out in the programme that we run is looking at your specific genes in relation to circadian rhythms. Can you explain a little bit?

So why is it for my husband that if he gets up at 5 am and does that, that's not good for him? Whereas for my body type, that's not so bad?

Dr Cam: Yes, sure. So when we're talking about this, there is a genetic component, and I guess what we're going to be talking about today and what we've kind of alluded to is that there's also an epigenetic component. And so when we talk about chronotypes, and whether someone's an early bird, a night owl, or an intermediate type, or somewhere in between because there's a full continuum of where people are. This is based on not just their wants to wake up, not just that ‘I can wake up’, I'd prefer to sleep in’, or ‘I'd prefer to wake up early’. It's not necessarily that. It's actually as to when a body can tolerate stress and how that stress should be placed on them. 

And in our body, at all times, there is a system of stress and then recovery, and it's that balance that we're trying to fluctuate through with our rhythms throughout the day. That's actually what the rhythms protect is that stress-to-recovery balance. So waking and then sleeping and then eat and then rest or, move, eat, rest, all of those types of things. 

So, we have individuals that as they're developing in the womb, they get a heightened sensitivity to testosterone, they have a greater development of their adrenal system and their response to adrenaline, and that's due to embryological epigenetic factors. And to make that simple is that there's different tissues that are developing in the womb, obviously, that make up our body. Depending on the genes that you have and in the environment in the womb, you will give more dominance to certain tissues. And this particular person, they called the Activator in our ph360 circle. The Activators have, they develop the tissues more dominantly that are related to the muscle, the skeleton, the testosterone, and the reproductive glands, adrenal glands, kidneys. And so as they develop throughout their life, these hormones and these tissues have more dominance than the other tissues. 

And so, I'll give another example just to give a comparison in a second. So if you've got a body that's more sensitive to testosterone, it also has a slightly stronger adrenal system. And Lisa is a perfect example of that, and I'm not too far from that. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Dr Cam: And essentially, what this body does really well is that it responds to that adrenal system very powerfully. And first thing in the morning is when your adrenal system is the strongest. This is when you get the biggest glucocorticoid release that's your cortisol and your adrenalines. And essentially, it's to say, ‘Hey, you were dead asleep, and now you need to be awake’. 

And because they've got tissues that are also ready for that, they even take that energy. And if they use their adrenal system at that time, it matches their strength. This is what they've grown to be strong in. And so it matches their strength to be really great at this. And so, when they use it, it aligns with what their body is looking for. And then they ride that energy all the way through to the end of the day. And this is because we've put the right body into the right environment at the right time. 

However, a Diplomat, which is the opposite side of the circle, and what we see with embryological development is, on a circle, opposite sides, you'll see opposite effects. And so, instead of it being the adrenal system and the testosterone system that's really sensitive within the body, the other body, we actually see their digestive system and their neuro system being more developed and more sensitive. 

And so what's happening in digestion in the morning is that it's, essentially, it's regulating where all the fluid is going to go in the body.  It's finishing off these really important digestive processes, clearing out the digestion, making sure that the gut is rested and ready for new meals. And it's doing that right up until 7am. 

And so this body is having to focus all of its energy on its digestive system because that's the really important system for this body. And if you then stress this body, what happens is it goes, ‘Well, I was trying to put water into the right place, I was trying to get my digestion on track, and I'm running all of a sudden’?

Lisa: You’re just taking what. Yes.

Dr Cam: ‘Like this does not match at all. I don't need adrenaline right now. This is bad news’. And so what happens is the body then goes into compensation. It says, ‘Oh, God. Well, I'm gonna have to make up for this later. I've spent all of this fluid of sweat. I've used all of this energy’. And so this body goes, ‘Well, I didn't get time to put my fluid away, so where is it? Okay, I'm going to retain fluid now’, because, and this is exactly what happened in that body.

Lisa: You’ve put on weight.

Dr Cam: You have enough cortisol at the wrong time. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Dr Cam: They make that retaining fluid. And this is exactly what's happening—they get the adrenal burst in the morning, but if they then run with that with some morning exercise, it becomes too much for their system. They can't then do those digestive processes. Their gut goes off, which influences their serotonin production, which makes them less happy. 

Lisa: Wow.

Dr Cam: What's really interesting with this kind of crowd is that the things that we'll see is an individual wakes up, like I said before, we'll get up, and they'll do their exercise. And what they'll notice is they start getting this bit of weight around the middle.

Lisa: Around the middle.

Dr Cam: And they'll also start accumulating fluid. They'll get a halo effect from exercise of two to three hours because their stress levels actually stay a lot higher for a lot longer because they shouldn't be stressed at that time. So they get this, and stress hormones make you feel alive, and they make you feel awake. And so, for the first three hours of the day, you're going, ‘Yes, I'm an early bird. This is awesome’, and then come lunch, it crashes really, really hard. And you also become more diabetic in the afternoon, for lack of a better term, more insulin resistance.

Lisa: Insulin resistance 

Dr Cam: Yes. And so, this individual has been working their guts out literally, and all they've got is more fluid retention, tightness in the afternoon, weight gain around the middle, which is the thing that they're doing exercise for.

Lisa: They’re stuck.

Dr Cam: And if they just shift that exercise later in the day when their body is ready for movement because this body likes to conserve energy in the morning, make sure everything is sorted in their body, and then they can move in the stress and all that sort of stuff in the afternoon. And if they do that, there's no cortisol rise to the same extent. They have much lower cortisol all day, which means they don't deposit fat around their stomach. 

Lisa: Because cortisol is a real effect on…

Dr Cam: Huge one. And this particular body, absolutely, because it's the opposite of the Activator, the Diplomat is, they don't like their cortisol so high. They like things to be cruisy and peaceful and steady as opposed to high-intensity and… Exactly. And so, whenever you put this body into this thing at the wrong time, you end up with this adverse effect. And you start questioning yourself, it's like, ‘What the hell could I be doing better? I'm waking up, I'm getting my food in…’

Lisa: ‘I’m useless’.

Dr Cam: ‘...I’m doing the things I’m supposed to do, and then I'm crashing in the afternoon’. And all of a sudden, now they're having three or four coffees, which is just another stimulant of cortisol. 

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: And then they worsen the effect. And so we see for this person, if they just sleep in, they actually start losing weight faster than if they exercise. And this is…

Lisa: So counterintuitive.

Dr Cam: So counterintuitive. But when you think that whether you put muscle or fat tissue on, it’s actually—not to do with your food or your exercise, it's got to do with the hormones that those foods and exercise stimulate. 

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: You don't grow muscle from protein alone. Because we'll see people in hospital who are malnourished, and we're feeding them lots of protein and they just burn then they lose weight. What we're trying to do is we need to modify the hormones. And if we get the right rhythm to our day—cortisol is acting, testosterone is acting at the right time, growth hormone is acting at the right time—if we were able to match our day with our hormone release that's relevant to us, then our body is able to—anytime that it gets some protein, is able to put it to work rather than burn it off in stress. 

Lisa: Wow.

Dr Cam: And the same thing with exercise. If you do exercise stress at the right time, you stimulate the right growth hormones, which like in ultramarathon running, and I use this example all the time, it's just so appropriate right now. If you run for three days, are your muscles bigger by the end of the three days?

Lisa: Hell, no

Dr Cam: Exactly. They’re broken down. Exercise is a stress, and it just stimulates your body to say, ‘You need to be stronger here’. So this is where—whenever you're thinking about exercise and food, you've got to be thinking about ‘What hormones am I modulating here? And what hormones do I need right now’? And that's the information that we can have. Just two very simple examples that we provided before.

Lisa: Yes, and this is why this information in the programme that we do is so powerful because it gives you that specific information along with a ton of other things about what time to do things and when, in optimising your whole daily rhythms. But it isn't just about exercises, it is also about the food timing. So let's look at a little bit into the food timings and then also the whole neurotransmitter side of things.

Dr Cam: Yes.

Lisa: Like when am I going to get the best out of my brain? All that type of stuff as well. So from a food perspective. 

Dr Cam: Yes.

Lisa: So you and I are Crusader. I'm a Crusader-Activator on the cusp there, means four to six meals a day is ideal for us or regular food. My mum's a Guardian. Opposite end of the wheel, again.

Dr Cam: Yes.

Lisa: Two to three meals a day, ideal. That doesn't mean that you and I can't do intermittent fasting. That doesn't, by the way. We can still do that and get the benefits of autophagy and stuff, but it's a shorter fast from what I worked on.

Dr Cam: That's exactly right. 

Lisa: Yes

Dr Cam: Yes. And that's the perfect—I was actually going to use those two examples for that, Lisa. Spot on. So we've got Activators and Diplomats, which we’ve spoken about. Then, we got the Crusaders and the Guardians. So Crusaders are, essentially, Lisa’s a really good example, I’m a good example. 

Generally slight like a soccer player—taller, leaner, slender. And one of the features of their body is that they're very neurally-driven. So as opposed to adrenaline and testosterone, as opposed to digestive, the Crusaders are very neurally-driven. Everything is about mental focus, mental drive, and creation of hormones that allow you to keep driving forward. And you see these types of people in triathlons and marathons and anything that requires that long-term high-intensity focus. 

Now, with this body, not prone at all to obesity. You have to really, really really push with bad habits to get this body to a level of obesity versus the Guardian. Naturally, this is your strongest, thickest jointed, biggest muscled, and also, they have the greatest capacity to store fat. So anyone that you see at powerlifting or in shot put or in those power sports, like the world's strongest men. Oprah is a good example of a Guardian. This is a body that's just more substantial. 

And so what's really interesting about these two bodies is that—and I guess the most relevant one, we can start with the Guardian because it's kind of interesting. And then we'll come back to the Crusader, which is more—the most appropriate for general healthy guidelines than any other one.

Lisa: So we run the show as far as…

Dr Cam: We have the other types. 

Lisa: ...we have told everybody how to do it all wrong.

Dr Cam: Well, and what's really interesting is that our bodies—because we're unlikely to be obese just with the way our body is made up. That's not good or bad. We die from other things, by the way. We may not die from diabetes.But we might get...

Lisa: What can else haunt us?

Dr Cam: Exactly. Yes. There’s Parkinson's or something not so pleasant like that. So essentially, when we're feeding a Guardian, they've got a body, they walk past a bakery, and they smell it, and they gain weight. 

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: They have this ability of just accumulating mass at all times. But they have these hormones in their body, and they're more sensitive to prolactin, and they produce more insulin. And these hormones are growth hormones. They make you grow. And so, they have an abundance of these things going on. They have a slightly slower thyroid, which means that they are able to conserve weight very easily. And what's really interesting, psychologically, they're being driven to care for people. So they have the most ability to conserve energy and the most ability to nurture. So you have these big, strong protective individuals. 

Now what's really interesting with the timing of food, they’re recommended to have two meals per day, breakfast and lunch and then a very, very light, if not, non-existent dinner. Now, the reason that we do that, particularly with Guardians who are feeling like they wanting to—because this is the body that's most prone to excess weight gain as well. They'll be healthy and obese, but they can also really extend out past that unhealthy obese as well. 

And so, what happens overnight is your prolactin and your growth hormones, even insulin release, all of these things are greatest overnight. And the reason for that is when we're sleeping, it’s the best time for our recovery. And so all of these hormones that are associated with growth are the response to the day of spending energy. ‘I spend all this energy. I burn. I then have to recover’. 

Now, what's really interesting about the Guardians is that they have like a supercharged ability to grow overnight. And both protein and carbohydrates stimulate growth in different ways, and it's modulated through—insulin is a really great growth factor. It's one of the hormones that are involved. Essentially, if Guardians have a really big protein-carbohydrate meal at night, they get all of these growth factors at a time that they're about to have their biggest growth of the day. 

Lisa: Growth anyway. Yes.

Dr Cam: And this is a body that all they do is grow really well. They actually have a different rhythm that's not as catabolic, or doesn't break down as easily. In fact, it's quite anabolic by nature, it grows very easily. When they get stressed, they grow. And so what we want to do is to help this person rather than top up their blood sugar levels, rather than give them protein to feel full, it's actually—these individuals don't get that hungry that often if they're eating the right types of foods. 

Essentially, what we see is if we can remove the proteins, carbohydrates, and even the fats at night and have a very light dinner and on sort of that time-restricted feeding, I say, is the way that you can think about it, but it's an early window for the day. What we do is we drop those growth hormones and the growth factors, I should say. We allow their digestive system to do a whole lot more recovery overnight. They'll wake up the next day feeling so much lighter. But we also haven't triggered off their key growth factors, which they already have plenty of anyway.And so all of a sudden, now, instead of growing excess overnight, they're able to start just recovering other systems and processes in their body. 

And particularly when you're getting the breakfast and getting the lunch, you're creating stability in their system, then you're just taking away their growth stimulus at night, and they can start losing weight. And what's really fascinating about this, the studies that have shown this is if you can take people with diabetes, you give them six meals per day of 1400 calories, or you give them two meals per day of 1400 calories—breakfast and lunch. And what you see is a one-kilo weight loss for the six meals per day and a five-kilo weight loss for the two meals a day.

Lisa: Massive on the same amount of calories.

Dr Cam: Exactly the same macros, exactly the same calories, it's just that we're changing when it's coming into the body.

Lisa: So these people shouldn't be doing a morning intermittent fast. They should be doing a stop at six o'clock eating type thing.

Dr Cam: Even five.

Lisa: Even five.

Dr Cam: But really, it's about two meals. And if those two meals can be earlier, that's going to be better. And with lunch, is a time when we really tolerate foods very well. There’s a lot of systems that are really supporting us. That's actually a time when the meal can be most substantial as well. And so, this is what's really important if we're thinking about, let's say, reversing diabetes, for example. If we give someone six meals per day, it almost prevents us from doing that. 

Lisa: Wow, so you just can't fix it as you’re just getting it a spot.

Dr Cam: And it is why there are so many issues with so many, the dietary protocols out there because so many of that predicated on three meals and two snacks for this body. However, for the Crusaders…

Lisa: For us.

Dr Cam: ...which is the opposite function, they are much more likely to lose weight than gain weight. Obviously, in your exception, it's different when you're running ultramarathons. 

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: But we're more likely to wither and lose muscle, as opposed to the Guardian that's more likely to accumulate and gain. And so what food has to do for a Crusader is provide energy so that they don't break down. Because food is that important for recovery, and we will...

Lisa: And we’re catabolic by nature.

Dr Cam: Exactly. Food is designed to provide growth to a body that would otherwise be breaking down. And so when we see the need for regular three meals and two snacks throughout the day, and dinner can actually be relatively substantial because overnight, you want this body to take advantage of the recovery. Because if they don't get enough growth, then their immune system doesn't come on, and they start getting sick, and they start breaking down. Whereas the strength of the immune system in The Guardian is so much greater because that's the time that they really ramp up their growth. 

So we have this newly-driven body that we're not trying to protect it from diabetes and insulin problems because they don't often have them, particularly insulin resistance, and they have a faster thyroid function so their metabolism is burning hotter. They have all of this mental energy that is burning as well, and that requires more carbohydrates. So essentially, we provide regular meals with carbohydrates to this body, and their brain starts operating really, really well, that decreases their stress. And it's the decrease in stress that allows muscle growth, that allows our waist to reduce. And so, by having more regular food, we actually end up with better body composition for this person. But if we have more regular food for the Guardian, we actually end up with worse.

Lisa: You need to know.

Dr Cam: Whereas if you put two meals per day into the Crusader, now, all of a sudden—because they've run out of fuel because their metabolism turns it over really quickly, they have to dip into their stress hormones to stay energised. So they have to use more cortisol and adrenaline. And what do those hormones do? They break muscle down, and they put fat around your waist. 

And so we have this environment for a Crusader, if they're having two meals, they're having to stress and push to stay awake. And now all of a sudden—oh, and to stay alert and on. And now, we're going to have the effects of what those hormones do, which is in that body, they’re with the muscle, and they gain body, and they gain fat around their waist. 

Lisa: Wow. So they can—that’s the exact opposite. So Crusaders can be overweight, but that's usually they hold it in the middle of the body around the waist, which is the most dangerous fat—that visceral fat. And with the Guardian—so this is why like some people when they get stressed lose weight, and some people when they get stressed put on weight. And this was always like, ‘Huh? How does that work? Because I thought cortisol always put on fat’. And it does for the Crusader as well, but it puts it on around the middle, and that's because the cortisol has gone up, and you haven't had enough food. 

Okay, what about—this is just because I'm off on a tangent again—but autophagy? We all hear about inhibiting mTOR, which is one of the growth pathways. And I'm always like, ‘Okay, I'm an activated Crusader’. I'm on the cusp there. So do I do intermittent fasting or not? I feel like if I'm looking for autophagy and wanting to knock off senescent cells and all of that sort of thing, how do I do that without triggering my body to go into a stress situation?

Dr Cam: Great question. And so, this is what it comes down to then, we spoke about the rhythms at the start of the day—like the daily rhythm, the monthly rhythm, the yearly rhythms. Essentially, when we're looking at the rhythms of the different bodies, a Crusader has quite a quick turnover rhythm. So whereas the Guardian has a much longer slower turnover rhythm.

And so, what I mean by that is if a Crusader does a day or two of intermittent fasting, their metabolism goes, ‘Whoa’, like really hits them because they're always on the edge of their fuel supply. And so the fast hits them a lot faster, but they're their nervous system, which is the thing that's driving stress In their body, that will be impacted quite significantly if they go without food for a period of time. It'll start driving muscle loss and demineralisation to keep the body alert. 

And so, for a Crusader, it might be the one day per week that you do that thing just to give yourself a bit of a top up. For example—or to give yourself that effect of autophagy. Whereas for a Guardian, they have this ability to accumulate, and their rhythms are much slower. They can actually go for extended periods of time in that intermittent fasting. It's actually quite beneficial for them because they are more likely to build up toxins, and they're more likely to conserve over time. That state of a semi-fasted life is actually appropriate for them because their body, generally, their rhythms are slower and steadier, and they aren't affected by a lack of caloric intake or a lower caloric intake as much.

Lisa: So for us to do extended fasts as Crusader types, are we putting ourselves at risk then? If so, how do we get rid of that? Because autophagy, just for those listening who don't know what the hell autophagy is, it’s basically recycling when a body goes up, there's not enough food supply around, there's not enough nutrients because their body is sensing the nutrients that's available in our blood, and this can be low protein or low caloric intake. And then it starts to recycle old parts of cells or knock off cells that are damaged and not doing the job properly. And this is a process that we want to have, but as Crusaders, we don't want to tip ourselves into the stressed out state, where we’re actually too catabolic. 

So, because there's lots of things going around about fasting and the benefits of fasting. And, again, it is appropriate for one type more than another type or at certain periods of time. So how would you optimise it for a Crusader versus a Guardian?

Dr Cam: Yes. Okay, that's good call. So essentially—probably, the thing to state here is that it's not just food that creates this level of stress or rest and recovery. If you were—let's say, for example, that you're up in some sort of retreat, where they're doing meditations a lot of the day, where you're walking in nature, where it's just very, very gentle surrounds, and there's virtually no stress on your nervous system, and you're able to completely dial out, this is as a Crusader, then you're going to be able to tolerate a much lower food intake for a longer period of time because there's less requirement that's being placed on. You have food. 

But if you're in the middle of a busy week and you start fasting, your brains will go in ‘Well, I still want to get stuff done.’ And so your brain is going, ‘Let's do this’. And so in order to do that, you have to create stress hormone responses to keep your brain alive and to break muscle down, turn it into glucose that you can use in your brain for fuel. 

Lisa: Oh, we don’t want that.

Dr Cam: So it definitely depends on the environment that you're in as to how long you could do this. But generally, what we say is, if a Crusader is going to be doing some sort of intermittent fasting or something like that, just doing a day per week, and on a day where you can control the amount of stuff that is going on so you're not too narrowly stressed, it's really, really good way of going.

Making sure you're meditating, deep breathing throughout the day, doing some gentle exercise, some stretching, just to really calm your nervous system. You're not having to do really big meetings and really stressful thinking sessions because you want to dial down the thing that's taking all of your energy. And for a Crusader,  it's their brain. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Dr Cam: And so if that's being used lots, then the body will commit its reserves to looking after the brain. So you have to turn that off in order to do a fast without affecting yourself too much. 

Lisa: Wow.

Dr Cam: Because if prolonged, you'll start continually breaking down muscle tissue to fuel your brain, and that's not good. And you release a whole lot of calcium from your bones to provide energy in your mitochondria.

Lisa: Wow.

Dr Cam: In your little, your muscle tissue within your muscle fibres as well. You need calcium to make muscles contract and do their thing. And if you're stressed and not consuming, you'll release more of that, which is not a good thing either. 

Lisa: ...osteoporosis. 

Dr Cam: So this is where you will essentially know...Yes, osteoporosis is a big risk for Crusaders. So you will essentially know that if you're doing a semi-fast and you're starting to have the feeling, if you're a Crusader out there, you're having to push to have your energy. When you're using your energy and flow, it should be just this flow of energy that feels good to use when you're doing mental tasks and things like that. If you've fasted for too long, it'll now be this push. It's like, ‘I have to get myself up to do this work’. And that requires...

Lisa: You repel. 

Dr Cam: Yes, yes. So if you're starting to get less motivated, and you're getting to the end of a job, and you're just exhausted, I would say you're fasted too long because your body overextending itself.

The thing about Crusaders is their bodies are quite sensitive. You'll be able to pick up on those cues a couple of days in just to see what's going on. 

Lisa: That’s really important for people to understand. That again, it's not a one-size-fits-all when you hear everybody talking about intermittent fasting or doing these things on autophagy and inhibiting mTOR and all those sort of things. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach once again. It really needs to be...and just talking about the Guardians to like what we've been saying, sounds all negative. They tend to hold—and I know like my mum complains bitterly when I give her this tiny little meal at nighttime that's full of veggies, and she doesn't get a big steak like I'm eating. And that’s a pain for her at times. 

However, her body—to see the advantages of being a Guardian. Like back in the caveman days, she would have survived—I would have been long gone if there was a lack of food supply. She would have carried on and survived. Her immune system is incredibly strong. She's very resilient. She was in a wheelchair for 18 months, and she still had massively strong muscles. She's not catabolic in that, but she has a struggle with her weight. And now we've seem to have cracked the code on it. Because we're doing the meals at the right times most of the time and doing it appropriate for her body, we've had this huge weight loss over a very long period of time. 

Dr Cam: Yes.

Lisa: And that's the way to do it. That's what you want. You want to sort of do that in a controlled manner. And so there are good—and she's never going to get osteoporosis. Her bones aren't going to break. Mine? Quite likely.

Dr Cam: Yes.

Lisa: There's likely to have Alzheimer's even given whose particular situation. So those are some of the benefits just for those listening out there who resonate with that body type. Not to think it's all negative. And we've got an ‘Oh, gosh’, and we have an ‘Oh, good’ some things.

Dr Cam: And to add to that, survival wise, we would have these individuals who are much stronger than everybody else who has a focus on looking after everybody else. The reason that their body is built the way it is is when we go through famine as a community, their body goes into conservation, they start growing, or essentially, they start growing, or they start slowing down their metabolism so that they can provide food for everybody else. There's this internal ‘I must provide’. And so, their body actually assist with that, and it slows down its metabolism, enables it to gain more or at least stop the weight loss. And this is why, for this body, you can actually extend the fast because they have this incredible resilience. 

What's interesting about this body is that when you, any kind of stress—mental stress and things like that—if they experience stress, they'll say, ‘Ah, my community mustn't be safe. If I'm stressed, I'm the most resilient and I'm the strongest. So everybody else must be almost dying. So I'm going to start slowing my metabolism down straight away’. And as a result, they're going to take advantage of those hormones that help you grow, like the insulin resistance, the lower thyroid function. They're going to take advantage of those to be stronger for the community. 

Lisa: Wow.

Dr Cam: And this is a really important piece for any of your Kiwi listeners, particularly Modi and Modi populations. 

Lisa: Yes. They’re dominant Guardian.

Dr Cam: They stick out and generally have got this incredible capacity for protection. They're very family-oriented, it's all about protection of the family. And that thing comes from the same thing that makes them big and strong. It also makes them much more tolerant of prolonged fast because their body is designed to be a faster. 

What's really interesting is their body was meant to accumulate during great times. And then when the fast came along, they just ate. And as they fast, they get healthier. Like their blood sugar start normalising, whereas the Crusader or the Sensor, that the leanest of the bodies, when they fast, they start breaking down and heading towards disease because they just lack that ability to grow and that ability to accumulate. So the mTOR pathways, which is all about growth, they're actually very protective for Crusaders and senses. And so we don't want to spend too long without them versus a Guardian, Connectors. Some Connectors and Diplomats, they have probably an excess of growth. And so, for them, that pathway is going to be more relevant to modulate or at least you'll be able to influence it for longer with greater effect. 

Lisa: And this is why we see in the Polynesian community more diabetes, more cardiovascular disease, more—and then they also have a tendency to like those particular types of foods even more. So when you see with Sensors—it’s another one that we haven't gotten to, but that’s a real ectomorph body—and Crusaders have a tendency to actually want more vegetables and things, and they can actually do with more cooked, slow-cooked meats, and things like that. 

Dr Cam: Yes.

Lisa: But they have a tendency to like those sort of heavier, fattier, more sugar-rich foods when that's actually the worst thing for them. And that's why we're seeing, unfortunately, so much diabetes, so many metabolic disorders, and so on.

Dr Cam: Yes, well, those foods provide a lot of safety. By having so many calories, it's like, well, ‘If I've got enough weight on, my family is now protected’. And so there's this biological drive to eat foods that are very caloric so that you can have more mass because more mass equals more protection for my family. But if you just go and lift really, really heavy weights, your body feels heavier, your body gets the sense that it's more stable and stronger, and that can actually replace. It's a really interesting one that requirement.

Lisa: Ah, is that right?

Dr Cam: That requirement to feel it. Yes. So there's a feeling of groundedness you get from those very heavy weights, and we also know that it actually creates a bit more growth hormone, a bit more recovery overnight, but it will direct it with the right nutrients and the right exercise to muscle growth rather than fat. 

Lisa: So that's why the Diplomat and the Guardian body types, these stronger, heavier body types are really good at heavy weight lifting. And even though—because I have this argument with some of the clients that we have—women who are Guardians or Diplomats, ‘I don't want to do heavy weights. I don't want to put on more muscle mass’. But that it's—again, that’s counterintuitive. So they ended up doing lots of cardio-based stuff, which has its benefits as well, but it doesn't have the quickest response as, say, heavyweight sessions will do. 

Dr Cam: Yes.

Lisa: Is that right.

Dr Cam: That's exactly right. Yeah. And there's a number of things that need to go on, but essentially, this body needs to feel heavy. There needs to be white in the joints, like there's a joint receptor reflex that sends signals back up to the brain to say ‘You are heavy enough, therefore your family is safe’. And I know it's a bit of a…

Lisa: It’s wow.

Dr Cam: ...a narrative piece, but you only need to get someone doing this, you only need to get a hilltop, like a Guardian or a Diplomat, doing this type of training and understand the benefits of it. It's a very...

Lisa: Visceral thing really. You know what I’m saying. 

Dr Cam: It is.

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: Visceral is the perfect word. 

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: I was thinking soulful, but visceral is definitely...

Lisa: Visceral, yes.

Dr Cam: Yes, it resonates because they feel strong.

Lisa: It resonates with the dominant hormones. 

Dr Cam: Yes. 

Lisa: And then there's, yes. 

Dr Cam: And they’ve got these massive muscles that are not designed to lift little weights. And their biomechanics actually improve when they start lifting a heavier weight because the whole muscle is engaged in the way that it's supposed to. So it's fascinating. The form has a function, and the form directs optimal function as well if you look at it appropriately.

Lisa: And if you put a heavy weight when on your awry, we are all likely to rip something.

Dr Cam: Yes.

Lisa: A tendon or a...

Dr Cam: Or both.

Lisa: We don't like it. Yes.

Dr Cam: Yes, that’s right.

Lisa: We're better suited to medium sort of weight. So still weight training but not the heavy, heavy stuff. And we can do sort of back-to-back sessions as opposed to or back-to-back sets. Whereas with my husband and my brother, when I’m doing training with them, I get them to do a set, have a rest, do a set, have a rest. Not a CrossFit style back-to-back type of training either. 

And all of these bits of the puzzle, like getting this information helps you eliminate all the trial and error about working with your body, and so that you get the results that you want and deserve without like—because I bet there's hundreds of people sitting out there now going banging their heads against a brick wall because they've done the wrong thing for the last 20 years. And I was one of them.

Like doing ultramarathons super, super long distance for an Activator-Crusader body type. Not a good combination because I have more short-term strength than I do long-distance endurance. It doesn't mean I can never do it, but it just means that I shouldn't be doing back-to-back ultra marathons, which is what I did, and I end up paying quite a high price with my health. 

Whereas for another person, that might be perfectly fine thing to do. Probably not as the extreme of stupidness that I did it because it was just really ridiculous. And so you start—if you put your body in the right environment, get the right foods, eat at the right times of the day, work and do your mental stuff, you'll get health. And you'll get optimal performance, and you'll get longevity, all as a byproduct of doing this in the right... Can we just touch on there, Dr Cam, just before we wrap up? Because I know it's time to wrap up. But the neurotransmitters for each different body type—and we can just go over this quickly, and I think we probably need to spend an hour just on that, but maybe we'll do that next time. 

But just as a brief overview. So you said prolactin.That's the caring hormone for the Guardians and Nurturers. This is why these people make wonderful mothers and fathers and tribal leaders and leaders of companies even. Because they're that steady look-after-everybody type. If we go to the Diplomats, what are they? What's their dominant hormone or the hormone that sticks up against?

Dr Cam: They're searching for a balance of serotonin. Serotonin is what you get as a reward for things being pleasurable and enjoyable or calm and steady. So let's say that you go for a run, the longer you run, the more serotonin you get in saying, ‘Hey, calm down. You've done well. You've achieved’. And so when you finish exercise, the thing that's kind of keeping that calm and that pleasurable craziness that you feel after some sort of exercise, that's serotonin, or if you do a job well. And so this body— because they're searching for doing a job well, they'll take more time to consider before they do anything. Because they want to make sure they get the job done well so they get their serotonin. Because if they don't get their serotonin, they get very demotivated. 

Lisa: I didn’t understand aptly...

Dr Cam: So they start ruminating, and they start thinking about things. And when people rush and they go, ‘Well, I've got to think about this again because I want to make sure I do it well’. And so they'll slow down. The best example for this is kids. You got a kid who's a bit taller, stronger kind of build, just does not do mornings well. And you say, ‘Hey, let's get out of the house right now’. And they're like, ‘Oh’, and then they go slower. And this is because they're like, ‘Well, I need to get my serotonin. I thought I was going fast. I wasn't. So I'm gonna have to rethink what I was doing’. And then they reprocess the whole game again, and then they get there eventually. 

So serotonin is about pleasure, but it also moderates the speed at which people make decisions and how willing they are to take action. You've got lots of serotonin, you'll be very optimistic and so...

Lisa: I'm laughing because this is my husband, and we have this fight every day. ‘Cause I’m like, ‘Let's go to the beach and do some skimboarding or surfing or something’. And he's like, ‘Oh, you've just dropped it on me’. And I'm like, ‘What do you mean? It's not a very hard thing to run down the beach’. For heaven's, he's got to have this done and that done and this ticked off and...

Dr Cam: You’re violating the plan. 

Lisa: And I’m like, ‘Ugh’.

Dr Cam: You’re ruining his ability to get serotonin. It’s a violation of his biology. That’s right.

Lisa: Oh, I have to go and apologise.

Dr Cam: But then the Activator, obviously, they're searching for adrenaline. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Dr Cam: And so the perfect example is they want change. They want unknown, they want excitement, they want action. And so, instead of thinking about something and really planning it out, it's like, ‘How boring is that? I know exactly what's going to happen. So I need to throw something in that wasn't planned, otherwise’. And this is you see kids got this in school, where they are sitting in the class with a monitor and teacher sitting down, and all they want is move and excitement, and they sit, and they start making noise. ‘Ah! Miss!’ And they start throwing aeroplanes around the room because it gives them adrenaline, which makes their biology feel great. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Dr Cam: And so now all of a sudden, they feel really safe because they're doing something that's exciting, that is the opposite to the serotonin drive. And this is what's really important. And the funny thing is, as the universe would have it, you see a lot of couples that may…

Lisa: They’re opposite. That makes sense.

Dr Cam: Activator-Diplomat. And they are dealing with this their whole life until they realize that it's actually in their strength to work together. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Dr Cam: And then we have the Crusader, which is dopamine. So prolactin, the Guardian, is selflessness. It's ‘I’m going to do things for other people. I've got enough so I'm going to do for others’. Dopamine is ‘I'm going to do for me to get the outcome that I want’. And so it creates drive, focus. I've got—it's going to provide energy and make you feel great towards the mission. So as long as there's a mission, there'll be dopamine that's going through the Crusaders brain, locking into their reward centre and saying, ‘I must finish this’. And everything else just goes by the wayside—people, relationships, other jobs, all of that sort of stuff. ‘Because this is the way that we're going, this is what I'm being provided reward for. So this is the outcome that I want’. 

And so this hormone makes you a little bit selfish, but you can actually—for example, Lisa is doing this podcast to influence thousands of people every month for their benefit, but she's doing it for herself. And this is the thing that we allow, we—the person who cures cancer is doing it for… Let's say it's a Crusader, they do it for themselves, but it influences positively many, many people.

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: It's not to say selfish and selfless are good or bad; it's just the way that the biology must interact with the world in order to feel safe. And so we must do things for ourselves as a Crusader, but it can positively benefit many.

Lisa: Yes. You can pick missions that are gonna benefit the world. I mean, the head of ph is a good example, isn't it? Yes. So you got to meet the—but you have a huge capacity to go on a mission and achieve incredible things and incredible amounts of things because you're so driven, but you have a tendency to bust yourself in the process and burn out. 

Dr Cam: Yes. That’s right.

Lisa: And that's a lot of oxidative stress if you're on the Activator side of things.

Dr Cam: Lots of inflammation. Yes, for the Crusaders, that’s for sure. 

Lisa: Yes, yes. 

Dr Cam: And what they need is they need to turn that off every now and again.

Lisa: That’s hard.

Dr Cam: Just like Guardians. Guardians need to do things for themselves too. They need to be selfish sometimes, and if they don't, they get sick. The same thing, Crusaders need to turn off and get off mission for a second every now and again. 

Lisa: And relax. This is for all body types, it's really important to do the calming breath-holding exercises and the Pilates and the yoga and being in nature and doing those things that turn the brain off. Because otherwise we're just on, on, on, and then you tend to wind up and then crash and then wind up and then crash. 

Dr Cam: That’s right. But too many of those meditative exercises and you start getting anxious that you're not getting enough done. And so it's finding that balance...

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: ...of resting the mind at the best time and chronobiologically, between 6 and 10 pm, is the time when your brain is going through its best recovery. And so if you use meditation at that time, it has more impact than it would have other times, and this is where chronobiology actually comes into the mind side of things too. 

And so then we have Connectors and Sensors. So Connectors are the most social, socially inclined hilltop. They have oxytocin, which is driving their response to the environment. So oxytocin is the trust and connection hormone.

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: Essentially, what they'll look to do is they'll look to create trust and connection with as many people as possible. And the way that they do that, they actually have a very powerful visual cortex, which means that when they look at somebody, they can determine their emotional state from their face.

 

Lisa: Wow.

 

Dr Cam: Then they have this ability to be a chameleon. They'll then match themselves to the person, and when you match a person's state, you create trust through commonality in resonance, essentially. 

Lisa: Wow.

Dr Cam: And so they have this ability to immediately fall into trust with people, which gives them their oxytocin, which they get from that connection, which then makes them feel good, and they can keep going. 

The trouble with this, though, is if you're trying to keep people happy all of the time, which is an important part of this, and you're not happy within yourself, it becomes inauthentic. And so then you end up chasing little droplets of oxytocin from lots of different strangers. Whereas what we need to do is really, really need to encourage Connectors to have very strong stable relationships like a dog and his owner. And the animal totem for help for the Connector is the puppy. 

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: And this is because like the strength of that primary bond, what that does is it keeps a flood of oxytocin going through their body all of the time.

Lisa: They’re not chasing it in the wrong places.

Dr Cam: Exactly. And then they can go out, and they can get their little top-ups and keep the community together, which is an incredible strength.

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: It's to keep people together and keep people connected. Not everyone can do that, and they have that ability. What's really interesting, though, is if they have a bad social experience, oxytocin will get tagged with that negative emotion. 

Lisa: Oh.

Dr Cam: So the next time they look to connect with somebody, it might actually be harder because they remember the bad thing that happened before. So the more positive, the more transparent, and the more best friend relationships that they can have, where they can just be themselves and be completely open and completely trusted, that allows them to constantly associate oxytocin with the great thing and great feelings, which then allows them to express themselves best as well. 

Lisa: It's incredible. 

Dr Cam: The impact of having very honest and non-judgmental friends is going to be really, really important for a Connector.

Lisa: Wow.

Dr Cam: Versus for a Sensor. Sensors are vasopressin dominant. Vasopressin is a—it’s like a survival mechanism. It essentially helps you hold on to everything. This is the leanest, slightest body. They have the smallest amount of muscle tissue and fat tissue. And essentially, their body is set up to ‘I need to protect myself because I don't have the capacity, the physical capacity’…

Lisa: Strength.

Dr Cam: …‘to actually look after other people. I need an environment that's nice and quiet. I need food that's nice and warm because I don't have a whole lot of insulation. I need an environment that is warm as well because I don't have much thermoregulation’, all of that sort of stuff. ‘I need just sensory dial down’. 

And so when you've got a body like this, when they get stressed, the vasopressin creates fluid or tension at the kidneys, and it essentially lets you hold on to all of your good stuff. It creates essentially a little bit of jealousy. ‘I like one thing at a time’. They really like monogamy in everything like, ‘One thing at a time because I can focus on one thing at a time because that's very certain’. They like certainty because lack of certainty is risky for them because they don't have much reserve in the tank. If they're out in the wilderness, ‘I need to know exactly where my food is, because I've only got a day or two of survival in my body’, or as a Guardian, for weeks. It’s...

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: So as a result, their brain will be hyper-aware of the environment. They’ll be less trusting because they need certainty, and they'll want as much information as possible. They'll want to collect as much data as possible before they trust anything. And so Connectors will just be looking for trust all of the time everywhere with no information.

Lisa: Wow.

Dr Cam: Sensors will be looking for as much data, as much certainty, as much security as possible. And then they'll say, ‘Okay, this all makes logical sense. This is not a risk to me or my body. Okay, now, I'm good to put some faith in this person’. And so they'll be excellent data gatherers. They'll really make sure that they understand people, and they'll want conversations that ask for the fifth and sixth, ‘Why?’

Lisa: Why.

Dr Cam: ‘Why do you do that? And why do you do this’? We asked a few Sensors, ‘Why is that so important to you’? And they said it's because ‘The deeper I get, I get to understand this person's intentions and as to whether they're trustworthy or not’. And so they are really investigating and collecting to do that. And it's their brain that’s asking.

Lisa: And so very sceptical by nature, so very good at analysing data, and being able to sift through lots of—so they're very neurally-focused. So you see a lot of people in this type going into, say the sciences and so very neurally-driven professions. 

Dr Cam: That's right. And not quite as sceptical as Crusaders. When you've got like a bit of adrenaline and testosterone and this stuff going on, that's when you get scepticism. When we're talking about Sensors, they're actually quite open, but they will only do things that make sense. And if they've got something that works for them right now, they won't change it. And I've had clients that have got a result in the first few months, and then I see them four years later, and they're still doing the same thing, even though they have actually needed to change it. 

Lisa: Yes. Doing it all.

Dr Cam: And that’s where they've credit security out of this information.

Lisa: Stuck.

Dr Cam: ‘Certainty is good. I can trust this information, therefore I'll continue with it even if my body starts not feeling great. This came from a certain place, so I'm going to trust it, and then I’ll look for other things’. So they are quite open as long as the information is provided logically, systematically, and compartmentalise one thing at a time because that's how their brain really works.

Lisa: So they need to ask a lot of why's. And of this body type, you have a lot of people that are often quite often vegan or vegetarian, which is actually not the greatest for the body types.

Is that right? 

Dr Cam: No. Well, this body is, generally, they don't have the strongest digestion, they will get less hydrochloric acid production. They have a greater need for minerals and a greater need for growth. And the protein is actually quite important for them in that sense for both the minerals and the growth factors. But often, because they're very sensitive to the environment, their  nervous system makes them very sensitive, they tend away from things that maybe have ethical issues, or they don't feel so great about eating this meat or whatever it is, where they get huge benefits out of doing that. And eating raw vegan, for example, can be particularly bad for this individual because they just don't have the capacity to digest all of those. 

Lisa: Yes.

Dr Cam: Very tough fibres. And they need a bit more help. And even if the food is very cold, and they need warmth in their body because the cold will actually reduce their stomach acid even further. So going for warm cooked vegetables would actually be a really, really great start, but then aging in some protein that can provide those minerals and that extra growth.

Lisa: And stuff. 

Well, Dr Cam, this has been an absolutely mindblowing episode. I think if you haven't kind of way going, ‘Wow, I need to know what I am’, and if you do reach out to us because that's what we do. 

Dr Cam, thank you very much. And you're going to be a repeat offender again on the show regularly throughout the year, covering different scientific topics around the genetic side of things and epigenetics. So thank you very much for sacrificing your time today. Really, really appreciate it. And I learn a lot every time I get to talk to you so it's been a real privilege again to have you on.

Dr Cam: It's so good to be here again, Lisa. I'm looking forward to the stuff coming in the future too.

That's it this week for Pushing The Limits. Be sure to rate, review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com

The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.

 

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1. Learn how hyperbaric oxygen therapy works as a panacea, and why it’s different from simply breathing in oxygen. 
2. Discover the benefits of hyperbaric oxygen therapy and how it can serve as positive oxidative stress to our bodies. 
3. Understand the future of hyperbaric oxygen therapy research and how there’s growing study into its applications and synergy with different therapies.

Resources

• If you would like more information on purchasing or renting hyperbaric chambers please contact Lisa on lisa@lisatamati.com and she can advise you further.
• Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! 
• Hyperbaric Environment: Oxygen and Cellular Damage versus Protection
• Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy - Discussion between Dr Jason Sonners & Dr Mercola from the Take Control of Your Health podcast 
• Oxygen Under Pressure by Dr Jason Sonners
• Check out previous Pushing the Limit episodes: 
• • Episode 230 - Exploring Ari of the Possible with Dr Joe Dituri 
  • Episode 227 - Fighting Cancer and Other Diseases Using the Ketogenic Diet with Dr Dominic D'Agostino 
  • Episode 170 - Search for the Perfect Amino Protein and Why So Many of Us are Deficient with Dr David Minkoff 
  • Episode 116 - AMA with Dom D’Agostino, PhD, Part I of II: Ketogenic diet, exogenous ketones, and exercise
  • Episode 120 – AMA with Dom D’Agostino, PhD, Part II of II: Ketosis for cancer and chronic disease, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, and the effect of ketosis on female health 
• Connect with Dr Jason: Website I NJ HBOT Center I Youtube I Email (drjasonsonners@hbotusa.com)

Episode Highlights [02:53] Introduction to Dr Jason

• Dr Jason’s background is in exercise physiology, chiropractic and nutrition. 
• When he got a herniated disc, he was confident in his and his wife’s abilities to help him recover. However, it did not fully heal even after 18 months. 
• Dr Jason then happened to attend a chiropractic conference and discovered hyperbaric chambers. He took sessions for four days and immediately saw improvement.
• His experience made him want to better understand hyperbaric oxygen therapy. 

[07:04] How Hyperbaric is Growing

• Despite its impact and effectiveness, hyperbaric is not widely used in hospitals. 
• Dr Jason explains this is largely because of politics and insurance. There’s also a myth that oxygen is dangerous. 
• The medical profession typically uses antibiotics to heal wounds, but antibiotics focus on reducing infection risks and do not improve the healing response. 
• Typically, doctors and insurance companies do not bring access and awareness to hyperbaric. It’s typically the patient. 
• Because of a large interest in hyperbaric, Dr Jason was able to set up 30 hyperbaric clinics last year. 

[14:14] How Hyperbaric Acts as a Panacea

• Dr Jason emphasises that hyperbaric therapy does not cure anything, but it can help with general wellness since your cells use oxygen to make energy. 
• Even if you’re 100% saturated with oxygen, it does not mean that you have the oxygen needed to heal or fuel certain systems. 
• In the full episode, Dr Jason explains how we never have a surplus of oxygen for regeneration. 
• Hyperbaric therapy can create a reservoir of oxygen in our bodies and improve oxygen absorption to feed the tissues that need it. The reservoir is used over a 10-hour period. 
• Hyperbaric chambers put oxygen under pressure, compressing the molecules until they’re small enough to dissolve into tissues. 

[20:36] How Oxygen and Pressure Works 

• When you go above sea level, it becomes harder to breathe. 
• This is not because there’s less oxygen, but because of how pressure forces oxygen into your circulation. 
• Every time you breathe, red blood cells pick up oxygen molecules and take them where they’re needed. 
• With hyperbarics, oxygen dissolves at a faster rate than the capacity of red blood cells. Oxygen then stays in the liquid. 
• Red blood cells cannot bring oxygen to damaged tissues, however, hyperbaric allows them access as it produces an excess of oxygen in the liquid.

[23:01] Short-term and Long-term Benefits of Hyperbarics 

• Our cells use food to create NAD and oxidized NAD becomes the fuel for our cells.
• Hyperbarics helps increase oxidation and, therefore, more fuel or ATP production. 
• Long-term benefits of hyperbaric include immune system upregulation, stem cell release, angiogenesis, and rebuilding of blood vessels. 

[25:48] Is There Such a Thing as Getting Out Too Quickly? 

• When divers get out of water too quickly, the danger is not from the oxygen but from nitrogen. Too much nitrogen can block blood vessels and choke arteries. 
• The level of nitrogen depends on how deep a hyperbaric chamber is. However, most hyperbaric environments do not contain nitrogen. 
• Dr Jason shares that leaving a hyperbaric chamber makes the body think it’s becoming hypoxic, but it’s not actual hypoxia. 
• This state drives the angiogenesis growth factors. 

[30:39] Differences Between Short and Long Hyperbaric Sessions

• When working with athletes, Dr Jason uses short 20–30 minute sessions to give a boost. 
• The hyperbaric chamber puts you in a parasympathetic state in which your body slows down, relaxes, and heals. 
• Doing hyperbaric at night can help people sleep better. 
• Dr Jason shares that around 30% of people get stimulated instead after doing hyperbaric, so he recommends these people do hyperbaric in the morning. 

[32:50] What Can Hyperbaric Help With? 

• Dr Jason shares that hyperbaric research is still in progress and may not provide in-depth insights into certain conditions. 
• Hyperbaric therapy works for necrotizing fasciitis and gangrene. Hyperbaric therapy helps to reduce microbe activity and breaks down biofilms that anaerobic organisms.
• Conceptually, hyperbaric therapy would also work on other anaerobic infections like H Pylori. 
• It also helps white blood cells kill both bacterial and viral infections. Hyperbaric therapy can also help with neuropathy, strokes, and TBI. 
• There is still little research on its effect on ALS and MS, but Dr Jason notes that since it’s an ongoing process, hyperbaric therapy can only work if it’s done aggressively. 

[37:48] When is Oxidative Stress Beneficial or Detrimental? 

• Oxidative stress is the reason we’re dying, but it also helps us. 
• Everything requires balance and reactive oxygen species help promote cell turnover. 
• There needs to be enough damage to stimulate healing.
• While oxidation from the outside environment destroys our bodies, oxidation from hyperbaric therapy increases mitochondrial performance. 
• As people get used to hyperbaric sessions, they can build a tolerance to oxidation from the outside environment. 

[42:48] The Importance of Protocols

• Healthy people can use hyperbarics periodically as it’s relatively safe. 
• For people with serious health concerns, it’s important to have a good protocol to match different therapies together. 

[46:28] How Does Molecular Hydrogen Work with Hyperbarics?

• Molecular hydrogen is not an antioxidant, but it can act like one.
• When oxidizing, our bodies sometimes experience incomplete combustion and create superoxide or free radicals. 
• Using molecular hydrogen mixes excess oxygen with excess hydrogen to reduce free radical production. 

[49:41] Can Hyperbarics Help with COVID-19? 

• There’s been a huge interest in hyperbarics to help manage COVID-19 since it can help improve oxygen saturation. 
• Viruses need to be contained by our immune system. We can typically live with viruses in our body without them expressing. 
• COVID-19 is a new type of infection so it takes longer for people’s immune systems to get it under control. 
• Other dormant infections can surface since our immune systems are so depleted. 
• Hyperbarics can help refuel that immune system. 

[56:29] Importance of Synergy 

• Senescence cells can help protect the DNA against oxidative stress. 
• Combining hyperbaric therapy with other autophagy-related therapies like fasting and keto can create a synergistic effect. 

[1:00:15] Future of Hyperbarics and Epigenetics Research 

• Dr Jason has written a book and uses his YouTube channel to help dispel myths about hyperbarics. 
• He shares that most research focuses on high-pressure hyperbarics, but his practice shows that people see benefits at all pressures. 
• There is growing research comparing benefits at different pressures. 
• What you do now is going to affect the next generation. While intergenerational toxicity exists, you can also re-teach your cells to express a healthier version of themselves. 

7 Powerful Quotes

“Just like anything else, you need to know how to use [oxygen], how to operate it properly, how to keep it within a safe means and make it effective.”

“This might not sound fabulous, but [oxygen] doesn't cure anything. It just helps with so many things.”

“Not only do we have to exercise properly, but the framework of alignment, and posture, and all the pieces that predispose the body to breaking down prematurely, and where chiropractic fit the model of really trying to improve that story.”

“I can only hold my breath for a couple minutes and if I can get a little bit more oxygen, maybe I could heal a little bit faster. To some extent, it's that simple.”

“If we make really great changes, and then we decide to have children at some point, we may not have to pass down the intergenerational toxicity.”

“Every virus you've ever had, you'll always have. They live contained, so to speak, and as long as our immune system can keep things in quarantine that way, we can typically live with these viruses in our body without actually expressing.”

“Molecular hydrogen is technically not an antioxidant, but it has antioxidant-like capacity.”

About Dr Jason

Dr Jason Sonners, DC, DIBAK, DCBCN, CCWP, CHP is a certified hyperbaric practitioner and is the Clinic Director of NJ HBOT and HBOT USA. He combines hyperbaric oxygen therapy, exercise, nutrition, and detoxification programs to help support patients through a variety of conditions including autoimmune and neurological conditions, autism, allergies, cancer, and many others. 

Passionate about spreading the effectiveness of hyperbaric oxygen therapy, Dr Jason wrote the book, Oxygen Under Pressure, and regularly uploads to the HBOT USA YouTube channel. 

Learn more about Dr Jason and his work through his website, NJ HBOT Center, and Youtube.

You can also contact him through email (drjasonsonners@hbotusa.com).

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To pushing the limits,

Lisa