With a real, raw, and relatable approach, clinical psychologist and narcissism expert, Dr. Jaime Zuckerman, takes a hard look at narcissistic abuse and its devastating effects across relationships of all types. Next Up: Narcissism explores all things narcissism and mental health; educating listeners on the patterns of narcissistic abuse, including gaslighting, love bombing, and coercive control. Listen in each week as we breakdown these toxic behaviors, and offer concrete strategies and actionable steps to help you navigate these toxic relationships. Through in-depth discussions, Q&A’s and expert guests, you will learn the skills and tactics to unravel this web of chaos, helping you to move forward into a healthier, happier and healed life.
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Episode 31: Narcissism, Divorce, and Motherhood with Nicki Marie
Episode 31
Friday, November 29, 2024 • Duration 01:00:24
“It’s going to be hard. It’s going to be the worst feeling you’ve ever had, but you’ve got to work through it.” The hard truth that, according to Nicki Marie, every single mom navigating divorce needs to hear. In this episode, she joins Dr. Jaime Zuckerman to open up about the emotional rollercoaster of separation, co-parenting and motherhood, offering a glimpse into the challenges and triumphs of her journey.
An “accidental influencer” and mom advocate, Nicki shares how rediscovering her authentic self became her anchor through the chaos of motherhood and divorce. Together, she and Dr. Z discuss how societal expectations and toxic relationships can reshape self-esteem and identity, which leave women questioning their worth. What does it take to rebuild your worth after years of feeling unseen? How do you trust again when past relationships have left you feeling guarded?
This episode is an honest and hopeful conversation for anyone grappling with the complexities of single motherhood and the scars left by difficult relationships. Nicki’s reflections remind us that healing can be messy yet worthwhile, and celebrating small victories along the way is a step toward reclaiming your strength.
Quotes
“I see people going through horrific divorces and family court, and one thing I always tell them is to document those breakdown moments—often, they happen in the car. Documenting these moments creates anchor points to look back on and see how far they’ve come. We’re often the worst reporters of our own behavior. We forget how low we were, how hard we worked to get through something, and how successful we’ve been at overcoming challenges. Capturing those moments can ground you and remind you of your progress. It doesn’t mean you won’t have bad days—let’s be honest, bad days happen. But acknowledging those past struggles and recognizing that you’re further along than you were—that’s all you need to know.” (07:15 | Dr. Z)
“This is a message I need everyone to hear: It’s going to be hard. It’s going to be the worst feeling you’ve ever had, but you’ve got to work through it.” (08:43 | Nicki Marie)
“You know what’s funny? If you Google me, guess what the first thing that comes up that people are searching the most… ‘Nicki Marie, reason for divorce.’ ‘Nicki Marie, ex-husband.’ People are obsessed with wanting to know the deal. And I will never share it because I have children and I want their world to be as offline as possible. That’s for me to work through. That’s for us to work through. So, I want to say that as a reminder to women who think they have to tell their full life story online: It’s there forever. Do the work with Dr. Z behind the scenes.” (56:04 | Nicki Marie)
Episode 30: Detecting Lies Using Facial Expressions
Episode 30
Friday, November 22, 2024 • Duration 01:02:25
Your face reveals the truth before your words do—Annie Särnblad unpacks how microexpressions expose deception and hidden emotions. Joining Dr. Z, she discusses the relationship between our facial expressions and emotional states, and offers insights that could change how you perceive everyday interactions.
What are microexpressions, and why do they matter? Annie explains that they are involuntary movements that reveal genuine emotions, often before we’re even aware of them. These universal signals can bridge gaps in understanding, but they also uncover uncomfortable truths, especially when dealing with deception or narcissistic personality disorder.
Narcissists often mask their true feelings, yet their microexpressions can betray them. What does it mean when someone’s face shows arousal or excitement at another’s pain? Annie and Dr. Z explore how this subtle behavior reveals deeper emotional truths.
By learning to recognize these cues, you can better navigate challenging relationships and detect dishonesty more effectively. This episode invites you to see the hidden stories written on the faces you encounter.
Quotes
“With a grown-up, you may be asking someone in front of you, ‘How are you feeling today?’ And they go, ‘Great.’ And they pucker their chin. Well, they’re not really feeling great. That’s their body leaking. The microexpression is a leakage of emotion.” (07:04 | Annie Särnblad)
“When I see somebody actually showing arousal, joy, or getting a thrill, getting off on someone else’s suffering, that to me is a red flag that there may be some psychopathy.” (41:43 | Annie Särnblad)
“That intuition that we get, that feeling in our gut, like, ‘I don’t like that person. I don’t know what it is. I can’t figure it out. They just creep me out.’ What we’re picking up on are microexpressions. Yes, and probably other things too, like smell, body language, tone of voice… I’m looking for the disconnect, where the facial expressions and the words aren’t matching. If that’s a consistent thing, this isn’t good. This is a big red flag to stay away. And you’re going to combine that with other pieces that just don’t match.” (48:48 | Dr. Z & Annie Särnblad)
Episode 21: Going No Contact with a Parent
Episode 21
Friday, September 13, 2024 • Duration 37:38
“The decision to go no contact with a parent is a last resort. It is a last resort of self-protection against years of manipulation and abuse,” says Dr. Z. She explains how going no contact means cutting off all forms of communication—calls, texts, and social media—and is a decision that is typically made only after enduring long-term emotional pain. It’s a decision never made lightly, as it often comes with feelings of tremendous guilt, grief, and loss.
In this episode, Dr. Z sheds light on the societal pressures that make it difficult for people to understand why someone would sever ties with a parent. She emphasizes that it’s not the adult child’s responsibility to fix a relationship with a narcissistic parent, particularly when that parent refuses to take accountability.
Dr. Z also touches on the importance of behavioral consistency when going no contact, warning that inconsistent boundaries can actually increase the chaos. She outlines the manipulative tactics that narcissistic parents might use to regain control, such as guilt trips or recruiting other family members to pressure the person back into communication. Breaking no contact, she warns, usually offers only a temporary relief before the abusive behavior resurfaces.
Dr. Z offers reassurance to those children who have made the difficult decision to go no contact. She reminds listeners that protecting their mental health is a courageous, yet difficult, step. Seeking peace and clarity is essential, and they are not alone in this journey.
Quotes
“A decision to go no contact is not a decision that is made overnight. It is not made in direct response to an argument that you had. It’s not even in direct response to a ton of arguments you’ve had. The decision to go no contact with a parent is a last resort. No child, no child ever asks to be in a situation where they need to make a decision to have a parent in their life or not.” (03:28 | Dr. Z)
“Going no contact with a narcissistic parent is your last effort to walk away with some sense of peace for yourself and your own family.” (14:11 | Dr. Z)
Episode 20: What to Do When Your Loved One Is With a Narcissist
Episode 20
Friday, September 6, 2024 • Duration 41:13
“When we talk about narcissistic abuse, we understand that this form of abuse is very nuanced and hard to identify as an outsider,” says Dr. Z. This episode dives into the emotional and complex challenge of supporting someone in a narcissistic abusive relationship, as Dr. Z unpacks the intricate dynamics at play.
Narcissists often start with a phase known as “love bombing,” which can make it hard for friends and family to spot the red flags early on. This initial charm gradually gives way to isolation and control, leaving the person feeling confused and trapped in the relationship.
Dr. Z sheds light on the subtle tactics narcissists use to distance their partners from their support networks and systematically dismantle their sense of self. For those watching from the outside, it can be incredibly frustrating and heartbreaking, often leaving them wondering, “How can I help without pushing them further away?”
Instead of confronting your loved one, which could inadvertently strengthen the narcissist’s hold, Dr. Z recommends offering steady, unconditional support. She highlights the importance of being a consistent presence, creating a safe space for them to return to when they’re ready to break free. Through practical advice and empathetic guidance, Dr. Z emphasizes that patience and persistence are essential in helping your loved one eventually escape their abusive relationship.
Quotes
“Coercive control is very difficult for somebody on the outside of the relationship to identify.” (02:40 | Dr. Z)
“Narcissistic abuse, especially that kind of coercive control, is often not visible to the outside world, even to those closest to you. What people on the outside are really starting to see is this very slow, insidious stripping of their loved one’s self-identity. It’s not sudden; it’s gradual. This started from day one, in the love bombing stage.” (15:50 | Dr. Z)
“Since your loved one is being manipulated, controlled, and abused—and as the relationship progresses, so does the abuse—that will happen. That’s a given.” (16:59 | Dr. Z)
Episode 19: Navigating Relationship Stress with Liz Earnshaw
Episode 19
Friday, August 30, 2024 • Duration 55:06
“If you and your partner are experiencing friction, consider whether there are things going on in your lives—whether it’s a few really big chronic issues, a lot of little constant acute issues, or a mix of both—that could be contributing to this,” advises Liz Earnshaw, a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified Gottman therapist, and founder of A Better Life Therapy.
In this episode, Dr. Z shifts the focus from narcissistic relationships to the everyday stressors that impact healthy partnerships. Joined by Liz, known for her popular Instagram account “@Liz Listens” and her books “I Want This to Work” and “Till Stress Do Us Part,” they delve into how external pressures can fuel relational friction.
What are the stressors in your life that might be affecting your relationship? Liz encourages couples to identify and list these stressors, a simple yet effective practice that can lead to greater empathy and cooperation. She also discusses different partner types—such as avoidant or indifferent—and shares concrete strategies for improving communication and setting healthy boundaries within your relationships.
Liz introduces a structured approach to managing stress, helping couples distinguish between what they can shed, prevent, or adapt to. By aligning actions with core values and addressing how conflict avoidance with others can impact the relationship, she provides a roadmap for couples looking to strengthen their bond. These insights offer a practical guide for anyone aiming to build a resilient partnership rooted in clear communication, empathy, and intentional choices.
Quotes
“The first piece I think is really important is if you and your partner are experiencing friction, consider whether there are things going on in your lives—whether it’s a few really big chronic issues, a lot of little constant acute issues, or a mix of both—that could be contributing to this.” (05:10 | Liz Earnshaw)
“What I’ve noticed with the couples I’m working with is that they're mismanaging the amount of stress they bring into their lives without considering the long-term repercussions. A lot of this stems from saying yes to too many things and putting immense pressure on ourselves to do more, accumulate more, and live a big life.” (20:20 | Liz Earnshaw)
Episode 18: Are You Friends With a Narcissist?
Episode 18
Friday, August 16, 2024 • Duration 41:19
“A lot of people don’t realize that there’s narcissistic abuse occurring in friendships because we don’t really think of it in that context,” says Dr. Z. When we talk about narcissistic abuse, it’s usually in the context of intimate or family relationships. This week, Dr. Z highlights an often-overlooked reality: it can happen in friendships too, and it can be just as insidious and psychologically damaging.
Dr. Z reveals that just like within intimate relationships, narcissistic friendships also begin with love bombing efforts. These may include excessive attention and adoration, gifts, and constant communication very early in the friendship. This helps to craft the illusion of the perfect friendship. Initially, you may feel as though this person is your twin soul. You can’t fathom how you ever existed without them up till now. However, over time, the love bombing ceases and they begin to engage in manipulative and passive aggressive behaviors. For example, they may undermine your success, not offer support when it’s most needed, or try to one-up you. A narcissistic friend will dominate conversations, often unloading their issues onto you without offering any real support in return.
Another red flag Dr. Z points out is the use of silent treatments. This can leave you feeling confused and anxious, wondering for days what you did wrong. Narcissistic friends will consume your time, drain your energy, and possibly even your finances. It is their goal to isolate you from your existing friends and family so that you become increasingly dependent on the friendship. Dr. Z also touches on how narcissistic friends demand you meet their emotional, physical, or financial needs. And when you don’t comply? Expect guilt trips, gaslighting, silent treatments, and character bashing.
This episode isn’t just about recognizing these abusive patterns; it’s also about finding a way out. Dr. Z shares practical advice on setting small, manageable boundaries and slowly reconnecting with your other relationships and interests.
Escaping a narcissistic friendship is tough, but as Dr. Z reassures, it’s absolutely possible. The key is to focus on your well-being and remember that the narcissistic abuse you endured is never your fault. .
Episode 17: Surviving Romance Fraud with Benita Alexander
Episode 17
Friday, August 9, 2024 • Duration 01:16:26
“I thought I met the man of my dreams, and he turned out to be one of the biggest con men in history,” shares Benita Alexander, a highly accomplished journalist and executive producer. In this episode, she joins Dr. Z to recount her harrowing experience with love fraud at the hands of Dr. Paolo Macchiarini. Benita’s story, featured in the Netflix documentary “Bad Surgeon: Love Under the Knife” and the Wondery podcast “Dr. Death,” serves as a chilling reminder that even the most intelligent and successful individuals can fall victim to the manipulative blueprint of narcissists.
Benita met Macchiarini during a vulnerable period in her life. His charm and apparent empathy quickly drew her in, leading to a whirlwind romance. However, as their relationship progressed, red flags began to emerge, which Benita initially dismissed due to Macchiarini’s convincing explanations.
Dr. Z and Benita explore the psychological impact of such a profound betrayal, emphasizing the difficulty of recognizing, and escaping from, a narcissistic abusive relationship. They discuss how factors such as intelligence and success do not necessarily immunize one from becoming vulnerable to this type of abuse. Benita’s courageous decision to go public with her story underscores the need to raise awareness about the dangers of people like Macchiarini, who exploit their victims’ trust for personal gain.
Exploring the complexities of narcissistic abuse, the insidious nature of love bombing, and the resilience required to rebuild one’s life after such a traumatic experience, this episode serves as both a cautionary tale and a source of inspiration for those who may find themselves entangled in similar situations.
Quotes
“Any narcissist’s worst fear is the collapse—falling from the pedestal, their reputation being destroyed.” (36:35 | Benita Alexander)
“It takes so much courage for a woman to come forward and expose herself like that. And then, on top of it, to get attacked—it’s the reason people don’t talk about this kind of thing. That’s what’s so concerning to me because if we stay quiet and if women don’t feel comfortable enough to come forward and talk, it’s going to keep happening. These people—narcissists, con artists, sociopaths, whatever you want to call them—count on you being quiet. They count on you being too embarrassed and humiliated to talk. That’s why the lies keep escalating, because they don’t think they’re ever going to get caught.” (58:59 | Benita Alexander)
Episode 16: Sex and Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Episode 16
Friday, August 2, 2024 • Duration 39:24
“In a narcissistically abusive relationship, sex can become a tool of weaponry, a tool of control,” declares Dr. Kate Balestrieri, a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist. In this episode, she joins Dr. Z to unpack the intricate relationship between sex and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).
Dr. Balestrieri, founder of Modern Intimacy and host of the “Get Naked with Dr. Kate” podcast, delves into the subtle tactics of sexual coercion and emotional manipulation commonly used by someone with NPD. She discusses how, within these relationships, sex is used as a tool to seek validation, power, and control. The conversation also touches on the function and impact of infidelity and pornography in these relationship dynamics.
Listen to this episode of Next Up: Narcissism to get a deep and insightful look into the role of sex within Narcissistic Personality Disorder, offering valuable strategies for those who are affected by this type of abusive behavior.
Quotes
“In a narcissistically abusive relationship, sex can become a tool of weaponry, a tool of control. It becomes bait, a way to keep someone suctioned into the relationship. It provides a false sense of security and can be a bomb used to perpetuate the cycle of abuse.” (03:13 | Dr. Kate Balestrieri)
“When we understand narcissism, we recognize that it’s really about the person, organized in this fashion, trying to prop up a sense of self that they can feel okay about. At its core, narcissism is rooted in shame and self-loathing. Narcissists cope with these feelings by projecting various manufactured images. Sex becomes another tool they use to prop up that image for themselves and the world. It becomes a way for them to gain supply, attention, validation, control, and power.” (05:34 | Dr. Kate Balestrieri)
“We have to remember that narcissism is a condition of objectification. With a fragmented sense of self, they objectify everyone in their life; everyone serves a purpose to bolster them up. For someone partnered with a narcissist, their partner serves a particular function. One of the key elements of objectification is instrumentality, where the person becomes an object or instrument for serving the narcissist.” (24:36 | Dr. Kate Balestrieri)
Episode 15: Narcissistic Mothers and Their Adult Daughters
Season 1 · Episode 15
Friday, July 26, 2024 • Duration 48:44
In this episode, Dr. Z delves into the complex dynamics between narcissistic mothers and their adult daughters. She discusses how the behavior patterns of narcissistic mothers challenge societal norms of the mother/daughter relationship and have a profound impact on their daughters’ self-esteem and mental health.
Dr. Z also addresses the grieving process daughters of narcissistic mothers must go through once they come to accept the relationship will never be what they hoped for. She emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries and offers practical strategies for managing these dynamics.
Tune in to this episode of Next Up: Narcissism for Dr. Z’s compassionate and empowering insights, aimed at helping listeners break free from narcissistic abuse and move towards a healthier, happier life.
Quotes
“With narcissistic moms, they love their children in conditions. They love their children so long as the child is, at any age, doing what is expected of the narrative that has been given to them since birth. So, since birth, you get a narrative. You are to play that role your whole life. That role is meant to put you in a certain pattern that the narcissistic mom is able to control and manipulate. Because remember, with narcissists, the main goal of narcissistic behavior is to gain power and control, to take away your autonomy, to take away your sense of self.” (09:11 | Dr. Z)
“Do narcissistic moms love their kids? They love them when they are performing as the narcissist wants them to perform. They love them so long as the child is doing what is expected of them.” (11:07 | Dr. Z)
“Start to gain objectivity to your narcissistic mom’s behavior and the reality of who you are, because the reality of who you are is not connected to her. She’s just made you think that for so long. Your ability to make decisions independent of her exists. It always existed… Once you realize that you can exist separately from a narcissistic mom, your entire world opens up. You realize that you are capable of doing whatever you want to do, as long as you understand that you will never get the support that you want from your mom, unless it benefits her.” (37:40 | Dr. Z)
Episode 14: Surviving and Thriving After Trauma Bonds with Dr. Nadine Macaluso
Season 1 · Episode 14
Friday, July 19, 2024 • Duration 47:16
“I was in a quintessential trauma bond with my ex-husband, the ‘Wolf of Wall Street,’ Jordan Belfort,” says Dr. Nadine Macaluso. “It started, as most trauma bonds do, with love bombing and promises of love and adoration forever, along with extreme affection. It was very intense and fast-paced, and then it blew up like many trauma bonds do.”
Dr. Nadine, also known as Dr. Nae, is an author and licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in trauma bonds, narcissistic abuse, complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (CPTSD), and somatic therapy. In this episode, Dr. Nae joins Dr. Z to share her own personal story of narcissistic abuse survival, including the psychological, emotional, financial, and legal challenges she faced within her own relationship with Jordan Belfort. She discusses her healing journey, and how her experiences navigating her own trauma bonding put her on the path to help those in similar circumstances. Dr. Nae emphasizes that the abusive behavior of a partner is never the victim’s fault, and that there is always hope and a path to healing.
In addition to her extensive clinical work, Dr. Nae is the author of “Run Like Hell: A Therapist’s Guide to Recognizing, Healing, and Escaping from Trauma Bonds.” Her work offers insights into identifying the signs of narcissistic abuse and how to break free from trauma bonds.
This episode is a powerful message of hope and resilience, encouraging listeners to recognize their own worth and seek the support they need to reclaim their sense of self.
Quotes
“When he first wrote the book, which later became a movie, I just remember thinking inside, ‘I survived this incredible Greek tragedy,’ because that’s what it always felt like—the depth of the pain I had endured. And now it’s entertainment. Inside, I just said to myself, ‘You know, Nadine,’—I fought and wrestled with myself—but then I said, ‘This is bigger than you, and you have to surrender to this.’” (18:43 | Dr. Nadine Macaluso)
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“If you have gotten to the point where you have set no contact with a parent who is a narcissist, you have done nothing wrong. I’m sure you have thought about this for a very long time. And the fact that you did it, does not make you a bad person. It doesn't make you a bad child. It makes you incredibly brave to put your mental wellness first in such a horrific situation.” (34:04 | Dr. Z)
“That’s a horrible feeling. A truly horrible feeling—watching someone you love slowly start to slip away from who they are, and from you as well. What you need to do, and as difficult as this is going to be, is to stay connected with them no matter what happens in their relationship. No matter how different or disconnected they become, do not disconnect from them.” (32:19 | Dr. Z)
“One thing I think is really important for people to do is to consider their North Star. What I mean by that is, where are you and your partner heading as a family? Where do you want to be? This has a lot to do with your values. For example, if your North Star is to create a safe and secure family, build a stable financial future, or live an adventurous life, it should reflect what you and your partner value as a family—your combined family values.” (35:19 | Liz Earnshaw)
“One of the things that narcissistic friends hate is seeing you succeed. They do not like your success because, for them, it doesn’t involve the narcissist, and they don’t have control over it. Success is a step towards autonomy, which they view as a threat. They see it as competition—something we’ll discuss separately—and a barrier to getting supply.” (06:59 | Dr. Z)
“Narcissists in friendships will align themselves with people that benefit them in some way.” (22:32 | Dr. Z)
“Do not waste any breath or energy trying to defend your character when a narcissist is trying to smear it. That’s exactly what they want. The best thing to do is ignore it, not defend it, and let it ride out. The more you engage, the more control you’re giving up and handing over to them.” (34:16 | Dr. Z)
“Healthy friendships do not involve constantly trying to one-up each other. They don’t involve making the other person feel horrible about themselves, being rude, or not talking to them for no reason. True, healthy friendships are a two-way street. Sometimes one person needs more, and the other needs less, and it goes back and forth. You respect each other, respect each other’s feelings, and you’re there for each other. If you can’t be there for someone, they understand that it’s not malicious.” (39:28 | Dr. Z)
“I think it’s also important to realize—very, very important—not to blame yourself. I mean, what was your crime? You fell in love. You wanted to trust the person you fell in love with, and that’s a very normal thing. You didn’t do anything wrong. You were vulnerable. When you’re vulnerable and you fall in love, there’s a reason they say love is blind. But you never expect something this extreme to happen. You never expect someone to be lying to you about literally everything." (01:05:41 | Benita Alexander)
“We can’t build resiliency in isolation. The only way we can build authentic confidence is to approach what we fear. And so, with the help of people, never by myself, I just kept approaching life.” (27:20 | Dr. Nadine Macaluso)
“It really wasn’t spoken about, and it’s so great that it is now because it is a very isolating experience with so much shame and embarrassment. There’s just so much to climb through to get out of it. Then you have children and financial dependency, and the court system, right? It works against all of us in breaking free and getting healthier. Yet, here we are today having this conversation. My book was a labor of love; it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I don’t think I’ll ever do that again. It was a very humbling experience.” (40:03 | Dr. Nadine Macaluso)
“Trauma lives in the body. It’s an experience that overwhelms us, and our nervous system, unfortunately, integrates it… After a trauma bond, you feel so unsafe in the world. How do I get people to feel safe in their bodies? With breath work, grounding exercises, and really listening to their bodies. This helps them contain their feelings because there’s so much emotional dysregulation that happens. As we know, our thoughts and minds aren’t always our best friends. I always say the true self lives between your throat and your pelvic floor.” (42:08 | Dr. Nadine Macaluso)
