Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk about ‘Founder Mode’ a concept coined by YC founder Paul Graham in a recent essay — based on a talk by Brian Chesky, founder of Airbnb. They discuss how founders feel gaslit by advice to delegate without micromanaging, and that the right approach IS a ruthlessly hands-on approach. The hosts explore the tension founders face between maintaining control and trusting hires, emphasizing the need for empathy. This is a sign that the paradigm is shifting, and all business leaders need to adjust.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

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Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

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LINK:

Founder Mode https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html

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KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) What is Founder Mode?

(03:59) Empathy for Founders

(04:54) The Role of Executives and Operators

(07:19) Blending Founder and Manager Mindsets

(09:56) Defensiveness and Personal Growth

(11:45) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:50) Kelli’s Best Take Ever?

Dr. Vijay Pendakur, DEI expert, author, and principal and founder of Vijay Pendakur Consulting, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich to discuss the current pushback against DEI, the future of the movement, and how companies can find success in a shifting landscape.

How can companies foster inclusion while avoiding divisiveness and proving business value?

Vijay, Kelli and Nolan candidly discuss the future of corporate diversity initiatives amid pushback and the search for measurable ROI, and exchange ideas for how to evolve diversity initiatives for impact.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network: https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH VIJAY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Vijay: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijaypendakur

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

“Closing the Opportunity Gap”

https://www.amazon.com/Closing-Opportunity-Gap-Identity-Conscious-Strategies/dp/1620363127

Watch out for “The Alchemy of Talent: Leading Teams to Peak Performance” available for pre-order: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Talent-Leading-Teams-Performance/dp/B0DCHB9RYZ/ref=sr[…]d=1724904614&refinements=p_27%3AVijay+Pendakur&s=books&sr=1-1

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:28) Current state of DEI and recent pushback from various sectors

(03:12) Analysis of DEI investment timeline and systemic unfairness

(05:26) Higher education's response to DEI legislation and demographic shifts

(08:38) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(09:58) Challenges in measuring DEI progress and impact

(12:48) Misunderstandings and Semantics

(17:55) Corporate vs. Social DEI

(22:45) Sponsor: Metaview

(26:38) Scope of care in corporations and how COVID impacted DEI initiatives

(35:12) Challenges in measuring DEI impact and focus on hiring metrics

(40:41) Team effectiveness and the role of inclusion in high-performance teams

(45:00) Impact of diversity on team performance and manager effectiveness

(50:25) Future of DEI programs and evolving role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs)

(53:38) Reframing DEI for business performance and organizational effectiveness

(55:00) Discussion on colorblindness and meritocracy in business contexts

(57:03) Critique of MEI framework and the need for ongoing DEI interventions

(58:10) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss how HR teams can break out from behind the curtain and be a proactive force for good within the organization.

HR can be more than just a reactive function. Learn how HR teams can demonstrate their real impact on the business as Kelli and Nolan share tips for increasing visibility and showcasing your team's value.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:18) The Importance of Feedback

(02:17) Mediocre vs. Amazing Work

(03:07) Employee Awareness of HR Functions

(04:41) Town Hall Presence: Communication and Transparency

(05:01) Engagement Surveys

(06:06) The Importance of Transparency - The "Sausage Making" Analogy

(06:35) AMA Example - Comp Transparency

(08:30) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(11:09) The Art of Compensation

(12:19) Transparency is Scary but Necessary

(13:00) Explaining the "Why" - First Principles

(14:00) Time Commitment and Building Trust

(15:18) Strategic Vulnerability and Humanization

(16:40) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich sit down with Chris Vasquez, Investor and Founder of Quantum Talent, and discuss the insane AI talent market, executive hiring, and the future of work in a world where AI is rapidly changing everything.

Hear their insights on the dynamic AI talent market covering the evolution of tech trends, challenges in hiring, the changing dynamics of diversity and merit, and the race for top talent.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH CHRIS, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Chris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-vasquez-66137553/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Quantum Talent:

https://www.quantumtalent.io/

Related Post:

Alexander Wang’s LinkedIn Post on Meritocracy at Scale

The Architect of the Paypal Mafia: Peterson Conway

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:25) The Evolution of Tech Recruiting

(02:00) Impact of AI on the Job Market

(03:41) Challenges and Opportunities in AI

(06:06) The Competitive AI Talent Market

(07:06) AI Strategies and Realities

(07:57) The AI Gold Rush

(10:39) Winning in the AI Talent War

(22:01) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(25:51) Diversity and Merit in Tech

(26:56) The Importance of Diverse Personality Traits

(27:39) Meritocracy and Bias in Hiring

(28:25) Challenges and Changes in Defining Diversity

(29:42) The Role of DEI in Companies

(31:38) Balancing Company Culture and Performance

(36:03) Sponsor: Metaview | Warp

(40:34) The Future of AI Executives

(44:05) Advice for Job Candidates

(50:10) Emerging Trends in Tech and Beyond

(52:41) Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss the reality of PIPs (Performance Improvement Plans).

Are PIPs genuine efforts to help employees or a company CYA tactic? Kelli and Nolan explore the misuse of PIPs, arguing that they should be a last resort, not the first step in addressing performance issues. Listen to their insights as they discuss PIP alternatives, like the "fork approach," focusing on open communication and employee empowerment over PIPs.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(03:12) Performance Improvement Plans (PIPs)(01:46) Pips As A Forcing Function And The Misuse Of The Process(05:06) The Misconception on PIPs(06:48) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo(08:00) The "PIP or Package" Approach and its Alternatives(13:21) Surviving PIP(16:38) Advice for Employees Facing PIP

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan are joined by Heather Doshay, Partner and Head of Talent at SignalFire.

How is the tech talent landscape evolving, and what are the challenges and opportunities that come with these changes? Listen as Heather shares insights from their State of Talent report, uncovering shifts in location trends, Gen Z job hopping, and the truth about AI's impact on hiring. Plus, hear why "remote ready" is more important than ever and why Heather calls out the reliance on pedigree and college degrees in hiring, arguing for a more skills-based approach to talent acquisition.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

RELATED EPISODE:

Tomasz Tunguz on Hiring the Right Talent, Firing the Wrong Execs, and Navigating M&As

* Substack

* Apple

* Spotify

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KEEP UP WITH HEATHER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINHeather: https://www.linkedin.com/in/doshay/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS

SignalFire: https://www.signalfire.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction(00:20) Heather Doshay's Career Journey(01:39) SignalFire's State of Talent Report(03:13) Geographic Talent Shifts(08:06) Gen Z vs. Gen X Workplace Trends(12:52) The Value of College Education(14:41) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo(17:25) Job Descriptions and Requirements(24:53) Challenges of HR Leadership(28:36) Challenges of the Chief People Officer Role(29:49) The Complexity of Hybrid Work Environments(30:54) Navigating Remote Work During the Pandemic(31:58) The Future of Remote and Hybrid Work(34:15) AI in Recruitment: Transforming Hiring Processes(34:32) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp(41:22) Common Mistakes in Early-Stage Companies(42:40) The Problem with Over-Leveling Titles(50:27) Rethinking Pedigree in Hiring(54:38) The Impact of AI on Jobs(56:18) Wrap 

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich discuss Meta's latest round of VP cuts which raises questions about the future of big tech jobs and the impact of efficiency initiatives on employees.

Is Meta's large number of VPs hindering efficiency? Listen as Kelli and Nolan discuss the impact of bloated management structures in big tech, the future of leadership and management, and their insights on how to prepare for a changing job market.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(00:04) Meta's Push for Efficiency

(02:03) Employee Perspective on Job Security

(03:30) Company Perspective on Executive Roles

(06:01) The Issue of Title Inflation

(08:04) Navigating the Job Market

(08:55) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(13:08) Networking and Career Advice

(15:15) Concluding Thoughts

(15:26) Sponsor: Warp

(16:27) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nick and Kelli sit down with Nick Cromydas, CEO of Hunt Club, and discuss the executive search evolution, leveraging technology, and AI. His company Hunt Club uses a network of thousands of leaders to find the perfect candidate, revolutionizing the traditional search firm model. Nick, Kelli, and Nolan discuss common negotiation points and terms surrounding executive compensation, equity, and the importance of transparency and feedback in hiring processes.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

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KEEP UP WITH NICK, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cromydas

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Hunt Club: https://www.huntclub.com/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(00:19) Founding Insight of Hunt Club

(02:21) How Hunt Club Works

(06:57) The Role of Technology and Human Element in Executive Search

(10:14) Executive Severance Negotiations

(14:49) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(20:31) Equity and Compensation Insights

(26:13) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(28:04) The Importance of Upfront Process

(32:00) Effective Executive Interview Processes

(34:46) The Value of Working Sessions

(36:42 )The Importance of Executive Feedback

(48:31) Evolving Trends in Executive Search

(52:42) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan is joined by regular guests/friends of the pod Colleen McCreary (Ribbit Capital) and David Hanrahan (CPO, Flare) to unpack Alexandr Wang’s MEI stance at Scale AI, the growing backlash against DEI initiatives, and a discussion of how businesses can move forward productively from this debate.

The conversation also touches on the new culture deck from Netflix! If you haven’t listened to HR Heretics episode #1 where we interviewed Patti McCord, architect of the first Netflix culture deck, queue it up right after this episode.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support Our Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. :writing_hand: Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

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KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, DAVID, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINColleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/

David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

00:33) Meritocracy Needs a Rebrand

(02:19) Challenges of Meritocracy

(04:22) Real-World Examples and Hypocrisy

(06:38) Striving for Alternatives

(09:21) DEI and Meritocracy: Are They at Odds?

(15:15) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(19:15) Transparency and Context in Leadership

(21:35) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(34:34) Final Thoughts and Call for Unity

(36:17) Wrap

In this 4th of July special episode of HR Heretics, hosts Kelli and Nolan discuss the hurdles of taking vacations, particularly in the context of modern HR practices.

They explore the challenges and strategies of making use of unlimited PTO, the importance of setting regular boundaries for mental health, and the importance of planning ahead for time off. They also discuss the importance of training your colleagues to enforce your vacation, deleting Slack off your phone, and recognizing false urgency.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. :writing_hand: Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction and Welcome

(00:02) The Vacation Dilemma

(00:42) Unlimited Vacation Policies

(01:23) Personal Vacation Strategies

(02:26) The Importance of Taking Breaks

(04:45) Setting Boundaries and Expectations

(10:06) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(13:29) 4th of July Plans

(15:04) Wrap

(15:12) Sponsor: Workvivo | Warp

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit with Michelle Wagner as she shares her journey from Chief People Officer at AOL and Evernote to becoming the CEO of MindStrong, a healthech company.

Michelle, who may be “N of 1” in the CPO to CEO company trajectory, discusses her early career, the challenges she faced in different leadership roles, and the strategic decisions she made during her tenure as CEO of MindStrong.

This candid conversation offers valuable insights for HR professionals and aspiring leaders, highlighting the multifaceted responsibilities and realities of executive leadership — plus what the job search looks like after you’ve been a CPO and a CEO.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support our amazing sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. :writing_hand: Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

--

KEEP UP WITH MICHELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Michelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelledwk/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(00:52) Nostalgia and Beginnings at AOL

(04:43) Evernote: Peaks and Challenges

(08:46) The Unexpected CEO Transition at MindStrong

(12:50) Navigating Chaos and Rebuilding: The First Year as CEO

(15:00) The Tension of a CEO Transition: Navigating Dynamics and Loyalty

(16:42) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(19:23) The Tension of a CEO Transition: Navigating Dynamics and Loyalty (continued)

(29:06) The CEO Learning Curve: Mastering Business Acumen and Facing Vulnerability

(33:03) Heartbreak and Determination

(33:44) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(35:49) The Acquisition Process: Balancing Patient Care, Investor Expectations, and Team Stability

(40:30) Finding the Next Chapter and Overcoming Preconceived Notions

(41:52) Career Reflections and Future Plans

(47:00) The Unfairness of Expectations on CPOs

(55:26) The Power of Transparency: A Case Study in Building Trust and Respect

(1:03:11) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit down with Andrew Bartlow, a multi time VP of HR and co-founder of People Leader Accelerator. Andrew shares his extensive career from startups to Fortune 100 companies, the distinct challenges at each company stage across VC-backed startups and public companies, and the danger of being relegated to your HR island.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH ANDREW, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Andrew: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bartlow/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:06) Andrew's career journey

(02:49) Differences between company types

(06:57) Power structures and company culture

(12:26) Talent assessment in private equity

(17:47) Sponsors: Metaview | Workvivo

(20:39) Private equity misconceptions

(28:20) Sponsors: Attio | Warp

(30:11) Changing reputation of private equity

(33:11) CEO and Chief People Officer relationship

(37:07) Assessing CEO's expectations

(39:00) Concept of HR island

(41:34) Engagement metrics: A critical view

(44:58) Challenges in HR leadership

(46:13) Engagement surveys: Pros and cons

(54:56) Exec comp debate

(01:00:51) Wrap

Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich tackle knowing when it's time to leave a job -- considering factors such as energy levels, learning opportunities, and impact. They cover the art of giving notice, protecting your financial interests, and nurturing professional connections when moving to a new opportunity.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:55) Recognizing It's Time to Leave(03:54) The Importance of Networking and Taking Recruiter Calls(06:57) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo(09:59) Job Tenure and Career Narratives(12:53) How to Put in Notice(16:55) Sponsor: Metaview(18:55) Vesting and Financial Considerations When Leaving(19:53) Maintaining Relationships After Leaving a Company(22:53) Closing Thoughts and Lessons Learned(23:01) Wrap

Scale AI's CEO sparks debate with "MEI" - is meritocracy a threat to diversity?

Kelli and Nolan, together with Richard Ni, Scale AI’s former Head of People, weigh in on the implications of this new hiring policy. Together, they discuss the role of meritocracy and company culture and offer actionable insights for HR professionals for talent acquisition and building a diverse workforce.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH RICHARD, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Richard: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-ni-a5605543

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(02:09)  Richard's Perspective on MEI

(04:16) Kelli's Take on Meritocracy vs. DEI

(07:11) Nolan's Counterpoint: Meritocracy's Imperfections 

(09:06) The Importance of Transparency and Seeking Improvement

(13:00) Richard's Analysis of Scale AI's Motivation

(14:34) The Importance of Human Decision-Making and Corruption

(19:00) The Imperfections of Humans and Systems

(22:22) The Impact of Tech Giants on Expectations

(24:40) The Impact of Economic Pressure on Companies

(29:48) Wrap

Nolan and Kelli sit down with Lars Schmidt, Redefining Work podcaster, author, world of work content creator, and founder of Amplify Talent. Lars shares his journey from leading talent at NPR to establishing his voice as a creator, to founding his own advisory firm. Lars, Kelli and Nolan discuss the motivations for becoming a content creator, challenges in building a brand and community, and why in the age of AI HR practitioners need to be more selfish.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

—

KEEP UP WITH LARS, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Lars: https://www.linkedin.com/in/larsschmidt/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:26) Lars’ journey into content creation

(03:05) Transitioning to solo ventures

(05:25) Building an Empire: Writing, speaking, and more

(11:31) Importance of creating content for personal expression

(14:30) Sponsor: Metaview and Workvivo

(17:22) LinkedIn podcast partnership

(19:00) Downsides on being online

(22:23) Future of media and AI

(26:30) Handling content for HR community

(29:09) Sponsor: Attio

(30:06) Challenges and responsibilities in HR

(32:29) Importance of diverse opinions

(38:39) Navigating polarizing ideas in HR

(40:15) Amplify community and modern HR

(48:39 ) Traits of successful CPOs

(51:48) Generational shift in HR leadership

(54:34) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Rippling is banning ex-employees who work at competitors from participating in a secondary stock offering. Is this ethical or a smart business move? Kelli and Nolan discuss the pros and cons of this controversial HR policy.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(01:26) Initial Reactions and Previous Examples

(03:07) Rippling's Justification and Cynicism

(04:31) The Zero-Sum Game and Company Messaging

(06:42) Openness vs. Pettyness & Employee Value

(07:42) Future Implications and

(08:50) Sponsor Break: Workvivo

(10:25) Regulatory Implications and Cam's Argument

(11:13) A More Brutal Form of Non-Compete & First Principles

(13:00) Rippling's Perspective and Understanding the "Why"

(13:58) Conclusion: Experimentation and Openness

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan engage in a heartfelt discussion with Todd Olson, CEO and founder of Pendo.

Todd shares his personal and professional journey, from his early days as a developer to his current role as CEO. He provides deep insights into leadership, his unique hiring process, and why he believes HR is essential to business success where human connection and vulnerability are prioritized.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/

HR Heretics podcast with JR Rettig: Building Legendary Teams: Trust, Transition, and Quality with JR Rettig of Pendo

LINKEDIN:Todd: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddaolsonNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction

(03:00) Typecasting and the importance of being the CEO

(05:00) Co-founder dynamics at Pendo

(09:00) The CEO card and cultural decisions

(12:00) Blending human elements with leadership

(16:00) The impact of personal life on leadership

(17:13) Sponsors: Workvivo | Attio

(19:47) Todd on Elon Musk

(21:00) Building a culture of followership

(24:00) Hiring practices

(27:00) The "why" behind joining Pendo

(31:00) Interviewing Senior SDRs

(34:00) CEO involvement in offer review

(37:00) Hiring executives

(41:00) The first 90 days of an executive

(45:00) The role of HR in 2024

(50:00) Hiring a head of HR

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli explore the rising trend of replacing managers with coaches, examining the pros and cons of this model and its potential impact on employee development.

They also discuss the practicalities of implementing a coach-based management model, including the role of functional expertise and the need for rapid onboarding of coaches.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction & The Big Changes in Tech

(01:40) Tweaking the System

(02:52) The NVIDIA Model: Pros and Cons

(04:14) One-On-Ones and The Middle Ground

(6:00) The Importance of Spontaneous Communication

(07:18) Sponsor: Attio

(08:15) Skillset and Capability Considerations

(09:09) Assessing Candidates for New Environments

(11:07) The Canva Model: External Coaches

(13:00) Executive Coaching vs Functional Coaching

(13:53) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church welcome Michelle Delcambre, an operating partner at Felicis (and formerly of Stripe & Databricks), to discuss company growth trajectories, and strategic HR practices around talent, comp, and exits.

Michelle shares the development of Felicis’ ‘Benchmark Your Org' tool — which you can access here — it’s a free platform utilizing data from 15,000 companies, updated monthly, to help founders benchmark organizational growth. This conversation, which is one of Nolan's favorite episodes of the year, covers common founder mistakes and offers insights around pre-negotiated exit packages, comp strategies, company attrition, and so much more.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:Benchmark Your Org: https://www.felicis.com/benchmark

LINKEDIN:Michelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelledelcambre/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(04:30) Actually useful benchmarks for founders(07:25) What metrics do people care about now?Boomerangs(09:30) Missing people data metrics(10:30) The talent vortex(15:35) Sponsors: WorkVivo | Attio(18:15) The anxiety of the “Regrettable attrition” metric and boomerang employees(23:07) Compensation challenges in startups(25:52) Tender offers and secondary markets(28:13) Innovative solutions for employee equity(38:41) Pre-negotiated severance and employee retention(43:56) Common mistakes founders make(49:36) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli dive into the devastating impact of toxic managers, featuring real stories of burnout, mental health struggles, and even suicide.

They delve into the misconduct of a Baidu executive who displayed horrific behavior towards her employees and the extreme pressures leading to suicides among investment bankers, highlighted by a tragic case at Bank of America.

From recognizing the signs of toxic management to building a strong support network, Kelli and Nolan offer actionable advice on navigating difficult workplaces and prioritizing your well-being.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

Related Articles:

* Top exec at Chinese search giant Baidu tells workers ‘I’m not your mom’ — then loses job

* Death of Former Green Beret (IB Associate at BofA)

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:37) Toxic Managers: Baidu Executive's Shocking Behavior(01:03) Toxic Managers: The Tragic Case of the iBanker(01:34) Kelli's Take on Toxic Management(04:26) Nolan's Perspective on Work-Life Balance(06:40) Sponsor Workvivo | Attio(09:19) The Impact of Fear-Based Leadership(11:15) Balancing Work Expectations and Employee Well-being(13:57) Encouragement and Community Support(16:17) An Element of EQ Is Necessary(19:19) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli sit down with Casey Woo, a former public market investor turned 7x high-growth executive (including WeWork). He is now the founder of Operations Guild and General Partner at FOG Ventures. Casey shares eye-opening experiences from his time at WeWork and describes working with Adam Neumann, and the dynamics of rapid business scaling. They also highlight the impact of AI on business operations, the rise of the business operator, and discuss what skill-based ‘‘specialist generalists” do.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH CASEY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Casey: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseywoo/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:14) Casey's journey and WeWork experience

(08:39) Lessons from WeWork

(14:19) Current Climate and Operators Guild

(19:48) Sponsor: WorkVivo |  Attio

(20:45) Current pace of AI development

(26:26) The Rise of the Operator

(35:03) Importance of generalists in business

(41:10) Building a Community: Lessons Learned

(44:42) Future of operators and founding businesses

(49:56) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli discuss an article from Business Insider about the ongoing white-collar recession, particularly affecting those earning over $100,000 a year.

They discuss significant changes in the tech job market, including the influence of AI, global competition, and the shift from managerial roles to more individual contributor positions. The episode concludes with insights into personal fulfillment versus financial stability in career choices.

Vanguard data reveals a hiring freeze for six-figure earners, impacting tech and finance. Is this the start of a white-collar recession?

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

—

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Introduction to the White Collar Recession

00:30 The Dichotomy of Employment Data

00:48 Challenges for High Earners

01:56 The Big Stay and Trapped in Place Economy

02:34 Industry-Specific Impacts

05:21 Global Competition and AI's Role

06:23 The Future of Tech Employment

08:34 Personal Reflections and Career Changes

08:43 Sponsor: Workvivo | Attio

11:12: First-World Work Problems

13:02: Self-Reflection and Assessment

15:34: On Gratitude on Salaries and Roles

16:11 Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli sit down with Nathan Tanner, an executive coach, author of The Unconquerable Leader, and former HR leader at DoorDash, Neighbor, and LinkedIn. Nathan demystifies the black box of coaching as a career path for people leaders, getting into the nitty-gritty of setting up the business, getting clients, and the economics of coaching. They also discuss the fine line between the empathy required of an HR leader, an executive coach, and a therapist.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NATHAN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nathan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathantanner/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:58) Nathan’s journey into coaching

(02:53) Impact and philosophy of coaching

(05:25) Navigating the coach, HR leader, and client relationship

(13:08) What makes a great coach?

(15:52) Sponsor: Attio

(16:49) Assessing client’s perspectives

(21:49) Lifecycle of a coaching relationship

(24:29) Balancing revenue and client success

(26:03) Strategies and challenges of building a client base

(30:38) Economics of coaching

(35:33) Maximizing your coaching business

(39:34) Essential tools for success

(42:20) Value of transparency and resilience

(44:13) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church sits down with Valentina Gissin, former Head of Talent at Bridgewater and current Chief People Officer at Garner.

Valentina shares the lasting lessons and people practices from working under Ray Dalio at Bridgewater, Garner's unique approach to the interview process, and her approach to hybrid work, manager training, L&D, and performance reviews. Valentina offers an absolute masterclass in innovating hiring and people strategies.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH VALENTINA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Valentina: https://www.linkedin.com/in/valentinagissin

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Garner Health: https://www.getgarner.com/

Principles by Ray Dalio: https://www.principles.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:47) Valentina's Experience at Bridgewater

(01:27) Dot Collector and Feedback System

(09:38) Managing Hybrid Work Environments

(11:27) Commitment to Remote Work and Hybrid Teams

(16:21) Managing Global and Synchronous Work

(18:15) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(20:03) Improving Interview Training through Recording

(22:06) Getting and Giving Signal in the Interview Process

(25:38) The Correlation Between Structured Critical Thinking Questions and Successful Performance

(28:18) Creating a Feedback Culture at Garner

(30:49) Sponsor: Metaview

(31:03) The Role of Performance Reviews in Compensation and Data Gathering

(36:21) Using Real-World Simulations in Manager Training

(45:55) Designing a Function for Difficult Performance Situations at Garner

(46:16) Wrap

Nolan Church breaks down what is happening over at OpenAI and what we know about three developing stories involving exec departures, equity, and transparency. Kelli is on vacation this week. He touches on:

* The departure of Ilya Sutskever, co-founder and chief scientist, along with Jan Lieke

* The journalistic investigation by Vox's Kelsey Piper, who broke the story of OpenAI's practice of requiring departing employees to sign life-long non-disclosure and non-disparagement agreements, threatening the loss of vested equity for breach

* The incident involving Scarlett Johansson being approached to voice OpenAI’s AI, without her consent, raising questions about ethical use of voice likeness in AI technologies

Nolan debriefs with lessons for HR leaders and company founders.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:47) The Big Departures: OpenAI's Executive Shake-Up

(03:31) OpenAI's Controversial NDAs

(05:12) Sponsors: Attio

(08:21) The Scarlett Johansson Voice Saga

(10:04) The Future of OpenAI and HR Lessons

(10:50) Wrap

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli have an honest and transparent discussion with CEO and founder of Remote Job van der Voort (also the former VP of Product at GitLab) on the nuances of running an international remote company. 

Job strongly emphasises how trying to replicate the office environment in a remote setting doesn’t work and how giving small teams extreme autonomy with focus on outcome-based-management far outweighs surveillance and micro management. 

Kelli, Nolan and Job chat about early career growth and development in remote settings vs learning by osmosis in the office and how the company committed to developing new methodologies to mentor and train up juniors.

Job also gives insights into the complexities of global hiring, geography-based compensation, and geographic mobility for remote workers and discusses the impact it has on contracts and mutual obligations.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH JOB, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Job: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jobvo/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:53) Replicating Office Culture in Remote Settings

(06:45) Embracing Asynchronous Work and Team Autonomy

(09:48) Hiring and Training in a Remote-First World

(13:51) Innovative Remote Work Practices and Tools

(17:50) Addressing the Challenges of Remote Work 

(22:10) Remote's Approach to Documentation and Communication

(26:00) International Employment and Expansion

(26:54) Global Employment with Remote

(28:10) Global Compensation Strategies

(33:52) Equity and Performance in Global Teams

(39:40) Mobility and Compensation In Employee Relocation

(46:55) The Global Hiring Market and Future Trends

(51.24) Wrap

In today's segment, Kelli welcomes back Janelle Lopez, discussing her recent career decision to take a second-in-command role at Coursera over the top Chief People Officer position elsewhere. She gives us an honest look into her decision-making, her networking efforts (75 meetings!), and how to assess a company for fit.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

--

KEEP UP WITH JANELLE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Janelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janelle-lopez-29997a4/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:27) Career Decision: Chief People Officer vs. Number Two Role

(01:27) Networking

(04:29) Evaluating Opportunities

(08:04) The Real Power of Networking

(12:01) Biggest Lessons From the Job Search

(13:23) Janelle's Future Aspirations

(14:20) Wrap

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli chat humanity in leadership with Michelle Weaver, CFO at Twitch (now part of Amazon). Michelle Weaver has 25 years experience including Hired (with Kelli), StitchFix, Axiom, Gap, Inc. and EA.

Michelle emphasises the importance of a human-first leadership approach and that growth and learning can come from the projects you work on, not just promotions. 

The team all agree that building a strong relationship with the CFO builds a strong business foundation and knowing the business you’re in makes you a stronger leader. They also advocate for taking the wins from experiences with bad managers by being the outcome you want to see.

Michelle also offers advice on selecting the company you want to work for and understanding the 'why' behind business numbers. She also goes deep on staying grounded through the M&A process and gives her own spin on personal growth and burnout in high-stress environments. 

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Get new episodes straight to your inbox: HRHeretics.substack.com.

SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH MICHELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Michelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-weaver/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:45) The Human Side of Being a CFO

(04:10) Rethinking Team Management and Development

(06:20) Promotions and Organisational Changes

(08:03) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM

(08:59) The Power of CFO and CPO Collaboration

(12.18) Structural Alignments Within The Company

(15.46) The CPO interviewing the CFO 

(17:16) Choosing the Right Company

(21:10) The Expansion of Gaming

(24:06) M&A Trends and Staying Grounded

(27:37) The Role of a CFO in Navigating M&A Challenges

(30:31) Deep Dive into the M&A Process

(32:45) Red Flags and Deal Breakers in M&A

(37:15) Addressing Burnout and Understanding What Your Passion Is

(42:59) How to Discover Your Passion

(48:00) Wrap

In today’s segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the recent FTC ruling to ban non-compete agreements nationwide in the US, the broader implications of the ruling for employers and employees, and the future of AI and tech post-ban.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) FTC Bans Non-Competes Nationwide

(00:53) Personal Takes on the Non-Compete Ban

(01:13) The Surprising Impact of Non-Competes Across Industries

(02:49) Freedom and Innovation

(05:09) Balancing Trade Secrets and Employee Freedom

(07:33) The Future of Tech and AI Post-Ban

(10:41) Embracing Side Hustles and Innovation

(11:56) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan are joined by Kristy McCann Flynn, a seasoned HR professional with 25 years of experience, who shares her journey from working in traditional HR roles to founding SkillCycle, a company aimed at revolutionizing talent development and performance management.

The lively debate covers the evolving role of HR,  why HR software purchasing power might be changing, why  HR practitioners are doing it wrong if the 50% of their time is spent hearing staff concerns, and as ever, the fundamental importance of aligning HR initiatives with business outcomes.

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

https://www.skillcycle.com/

KEEP UP WITH KRISTY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Kristy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmflynn/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:41) The Genesis of SkillCycle: A Response to Industry Frustrations

(01:17) Navigating Corporate America's Challenges and Changes

(03:29) Revolutionizing Talent Development

(04:20) Transforming HR and Talent Management

(04:54) Addressing the Skills Gap: A New Approach to HR Tech

(05:33) The Business Case for Investing in Talent Development

(09:04) SkillCycle's Strategy: Performance, Engagement, and Learning

(09:26) Skill Development vs. Hiring

(13:20) Sponsor: Attio

(16:31) Enabling Your Entire Workforce

(17:39) Investing in Employees Without Bias

(20:04) Burnout in HR

(24:18) The Future of HR and Shifting Focus to Business Leaders

(27:37) Strategies for Professional Development and Growth

(29:04) Navigating Budgets and Building Relationships with CFOs

(31:02) The Importance of Business Acumen in HR

(32:12) Redefining HR's Role Beyond Being a Complaint Department

(37:29) On Engagement and Pulse Surveys

(43:26) Transitioning from HR to CEO: Insights and Reflections

(47:31) Optimism vs. Pessimism in Leadership

(50:00) Wrap

In today's segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss Google firing employees who barricaded themselves in the CEO of Google Cloud Thomas Kurian's office for nine hours, to protest Google providing cloud computing services to the Israeli Ministry of Defense. Google CEO swiftly released a 'No Politics in the Workplace' message. The discussion explores the broader implications of protesting in the workplace, raises questions about protests and explores alternative ways to voice dissent without disruption.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/attioturpentine

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) The Google Protest Controversy: An HR Perspective

(01:23) Analyzing the Protest: Tactics and Consequences

(02:35) The Fine Line Between Protest and Workplace Disruption

(06:13) Google's Response and the Shift in Tech Culture

(07:48) Sponsor: Attio

(11:31) Exploring Solutions and the Future of Workplace Politics

(14:19) Thoughts on Politics in the Workplace

This week Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Peterson Conway, headhunter, investor, and advisor who shares insights from his epic career working closely with Silicon Valley greats like Peter Thiel, Kevin Hartz, Keith Rabois, and Joe Lonsdale. Conway has assembled talent for the founding/early teams of Xoom, Palantir, Founders Fund, and 8VC

Strap in for some crazy stories. Conway's journey highlights the significance of curiosity, optimism, and unconventional hiring practices in Silicon Valley. Conway reflects on the profile of talent he looks for and drills down to certain keywords he uses to search for seeking individuals with strong convictions and a "fight from the bottom" spirit.

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

--

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

--

LINKS:

Zero to 1 by Peter Thiel & Blake Masters: https://www.amazon.com.au/Zero-One-Notes-Startups-Future/dp/0804139296Butthole Notorious: https://pconway-73418.medium.com/butthole-notorious-e4ac4ff12db4

Peterson Conway: https://www.petersonconway.com/

KEEP UP WITH PETERSON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Peterson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersonconway/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(01:49) Intro

(02:41) Peterson's Unconventional Path to Silicon Valley Success

(09:23) Navigating Challenges and Learning from Silicon Valley Titans

(16:18) Exploring the Magic of Silicon Valley and Beyond

(18:56) Sponsor: Attio

(24:46) The Dynamics of Connectivity, Safety, and the Future of Work

(27:37) Exploring the Intersection of Fear and Love

(27:55) The Therapeutic Journey: From Fear to Healing

(28:13) On Guilt, Shame, and Vulnerability

(29:55) Unfiltered Conversations: Embracing Discomfort

(31:42) The Power of Silence in Communication

(32:26) Team Construction and the Quest for the Right Hire

(35:04) Recruiting: From Elite Schools to Keyword Searches for Grit and Determination

(39:14) The Role of HR in Shaping Company Culture

(43:36) On Unconventional Recruiting and Finding Hidden Gems

(50:19) The Art of Asking for Forgiveness, Not Permission

(50:41) Wrap

In this segment , Nolan and Kelli discuss new information about Shopify's Mastery Program. Employees are assigned a mastery score, and if their score does not increase, they do not receive a raise. They cover the implications of this new approach, comparing it to previous systems used by other companies which also relied on ratings and algorithms to determine merit increases, and discuss the concept of creating a zero-sum game in the workplace. While not exactly new, internal competition is front and center in Shopify’s transparent new approach.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

Shopify Mastery: https://www.shopify.com/news/mastery

Information article: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/shopify-employees-go-head-to-head-for-raises-in-new-ranking-system

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS

(00:00) Shopify's Mastery Program

(04:34) Exploring the Broader Implications of Performance Review Systems

(08:59) A New Era of Performance Management and Employee Evaluation

(09:04) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(09:57) Nolan’s Time at Carta

(11:55) Commending More Experimentation

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli discuss the audacious quest to change the HR market with Adam Weber, Chief Evangelist of 15Five.

The team discuss the new reality of strategic HR business outcomes and the importance of developing and nurturing high-performance cultures and building great leaders, with the critical necessity of upskilling leadership development fast to adapt to new trends such as the addition of AI which will change the face of how we know HR today.

Adam also advocates for having courage and standing up for what you believe is true in the business and valuing the role of the Individual Contributor.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. Subscribe to our substack: hrheretics.com

SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

LINKS:

Adam wrote the best selling book Lead Like A Human on leadership and culture: how to bring your full self to work and unleash your full potential.

HR Superstars podcast: https://www.15five.com/resources/podcast/

KEEP UP WITH ADAM, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Adam: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetadam/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS

(00:00) Intro

(02:57) From Founder to Team Member

(03:09) Role Power In Practice

(04:51) HR Superstars Community

(05:26) Autonomy and Decision Making Post-Acquisition

(07:22) The Amplify Team's Integration and Evolution Within 15Five

(09:33) Old HR vs New HR: Changes and Expectations

(13:44) What CEO’s think

(15.23) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM

(16:40) Showing Courage and Backing Yourself

(21:11) Understanding the Business on A Deeper Level

(24:40) Superhero Mentality vs Delegator Mentality

(27:10) AI’s Impact on HR

(28:38) Upskilling and the Future of Work

(29:16) The Dichotomy of Company Strategies on Upskilling

(35:00) Celebrating Individual Contributors 

(41:00) Rethinking Best Practices and Embracing Experimentation

(43:32) Visibility and Sharing Wins and Losses 

(46.12) Wrap

In this HR Heretics segment, Nolan and Kelli talk about "back channels" in the hiring process.

They dive deep into this controversial practice and how back channels can impact candidate selection, emphasizing the need for a thoughtful, mature approach that considers the full context of a candidate's experience and potential.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) - Intro

(00:54) - Defining back channels as "underground mafia" of feedback 

(01:52) - The right way to do back channeling 

(03:03) - Maturity in back channeling conversations 

(04:12) - When to do back channeling

(05:43) - Avoiding the "back channeling frenzy" 

(06:42) - Timing of back channeling in the hiring process 

(07:55) - Sponsors - Planful | Workvivo

(10:48) - How to properly conduct a back channel inquiry 

(12:04) - Sponsor - Metaview

(13:40) - Typical back channel communication methods 

(14:50) - Real example of a nuanced back channel situation 

(15:59) - The "family reunion" analogy for bias in back channels 

(17:18) - Importance of considering human growth in back channels 

(18:31) - Handling negative back channel feedback 

(20:05) - Using back channel feedback as a litmus test for candidates 

(20:53) - Criticism of board members' approach to back channels 

(21:51) - Shallowness in high-level back channel feedback 

(22:45) - Wrap

HR Heretics bestie Colleen McCreary joins Kelli Dragovich for today’s segment to discuss a recent viral post about a VP People candidate who was denied a job because she didn’t wear makeup. Colleen and Kelli discuss the expectations and norms about appearance in the workplace and the nuances of providing helpful feedback to candidates.

—

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe at hrheretics.substack.com

—

SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, KELLI + NOLAN ON LINKEDIN

Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

—

LINKS:

Viral Post: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/woman-says-she-denied-job-because-didnt-wear-makeup-aywoe/

Colleen’s Writing: https://medium.com/@colleenwheelermccreary

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Colleen Guests on Today’s Segment

(00:19) The Case of Melissa Weaver & Workplace Appearance Standards

(07:20) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(08:18) The Legal Perspective: Can Appearance Influence Hiring?

(10:18) Navigating Interview Feedback

(15:22) Authenticity at Work

(15:55) Wrap

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli discuss “happiness police” overkill with Jeff Diana, former Chief People Officer of Calendly and Atlassian.

They talk about the importance of being clear on who you are as a business to avoid massive swings and over-rotations in current HR programs. Jeff believes it’s driving shareholder value that creates employment and that HR pros need to think more like investors and shareholders with focus on business impact rather than focusing on employee satisfaction alone.

Jeff also offers advice on being OK with saying no to a job that doesn’t “light you up”… and testing the alignment with HR philosophies and execution of business outcomes with the ones that do! 

He also offers advice on building a strong relationship with the CEO and is it better to report to a CFO or CEO if you’re aiming for that number 1 CPO role?!

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH JEFF, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jeff: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-diana/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:24) The HR Market Today

(02:37) The Shift in HR's Role

(04:44) Understanding the Market Shift

(05:05) Changes in HR's Role Amidst Economic and Cultural Shifts

(09:23) Over-rotations in HR Programs including DEI and Employee Expectations

(11.40) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(14:19) Understanding Why Businesses Want To Cut HR

(19:05) Embracing Business Model Changes as a Leader

(23:00) Thinking Like an Investor

(25:45) Employee-Employer Dynamics

(26:52) Expectation Misalignment

(29:24) Realigning Business Focus: Mission, Values, and HR Opportunities

(33:23) Due Diligence in Career Moves and Hiring

(36:51) Building Relationships With The CEO 

(45:43) Board Dynamics and CEO Feedback

(49:39) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan discuss the news out of McKinsey this past week: generous packages for employees to opt out of their workforce. Is this a sign that there are no more golden tickets? Kelli and Nolan cover what this move says not only about McKinsey but about pedigreed qualifications more broadly. They also identify the key skillsets for this economy and the single most important thing you can do to make yourself recession-proof.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/attioturpentine

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(00:53) The Opt-Out Strategy: A Personal Perspective

(01:52) Clarity and Transparency in Layoffs

(03:00) Business Continuity During Layoffs

(04:43) Rethinking the Value of Prestigious Institutions

(08:25) Sponsor: Attio

(09:22) Networking and Layoff-Proofing Your Career

(10:39 )The Changing Landscape of Employment and Skills

(13:35) Final Thoughts and Advice for Navigating the Job Market

(14:00) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli chat all things “data from Carta” with Peter Walker, Head of Insights and Data Storytelling at Carta.

They discuss Carta’s comprehensive report on startup compensation trends in H2 of 2023 influencing the flow of “dry powder” and the alarming increase in startup shutdowns. Peter proves VC’s will have less leeway in 2024 to throw good money after bad forecasting an even tougher year ahead.

The team also discuss honesty in HR around equity structures, including liquidation preferences, and Peter offers advice for job candidates on evaluating startup offers with an investor's mindset. 

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.

This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH PETER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Peter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjameswalker/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro: Peter Walker and Startup Compensation Trends

(00:39) VC in 2023: Dry Powder and Capital Deployment

(03:02) 2023's Investment Distribution: Early vs. Late Stage

(07:43) Startup Shutdowns and Future Predictions

(11.13) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM

(12:09) The M&A Market for Startups

(15:05) The Impact of the Economic Shift on Startup Hiring and Industry Trends

(21:59) Job Offers in Today's Market

(22.30) Valuations and Equity in Job Negotiations

(24:07) Key Questions Candidates Should Ask About Equity

(25:34) Understanding Equity and Liquidation Preferences

(27:59) Transparency in Startup Equity

(30:17) Educational Resources and Support for Job Candidates

(34:22) Options vs. RSUs in Late-Stage Companies

(37:35) Startup Compensation

(41:21) The Equity Dilemma: Exercising Options and Market Realities

(42:32) Post termination Exercise Window

(43:49) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan tackle the ongoing discussion around remote versus in-person work environments. They talk about the tradeoffs based on where you’re at in your career, the importance of questioning work environment structures, and encouraging listeners to consider what work environment aligns best with their current life phase.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. Learn more: www.turpentine.co

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:17) Remote vs. In-Person Work Debate

(01:16) Navigating the Remote Work Landscape

(03:36) Work in the Office if You're Young in Your Career

(06:50) Sponsor: Attio(07:46) Serendipitous Encounters

(08:50) Reflecting on Work-Life Tradeoffs

(10:33) Understanding the Seasons of Your Career(

12:16) Work Culture

(13:00) A Sudden Interruption

(13:08) Wrap

In this episode, Richard Ni joins Nolan and Kelli to discuss diving head first into a leadership role at Scale AI, a Series E AI startup that supplies data for AI models last valued at $7.3B.

From software engineer turned Head of People, Richard talks about his experience heading into a role with zero experience but with an aptitude for people where he needed to be honest with himself about his limitations and how this became pivotal in his learning. He also talks about the importance of building trust with the CEO and the value of self-reflection in career decisions. 

The team also chat about being the bad guy in HR and building thick skin around unpopular company decisions.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe to hrheretics.substack.com and never miss an episode or segment.

--SPONSOR:

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

--

KEEP UP WITH RICHARD, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Richard: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-ni/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

--

]TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:56) From Software Engineer to HR Leader

(03:10) The transition from Cruise to Scale AI

(04:33) Leveraging Technical Background in HR and Recruiting

(06:22) Embracing Leadership Roles Early in Career

(11:17) The Power of Authenticity and Self-Awareness in Career Growth

(12:36) Sponsor: Attio CRM

(16:43) Building Trust and Navigating HR Challenges

(20:26) Learning from Mistakes and Valuing External Advice

(23:44) Mentoring

(24:22) Being the 'Bad Guy' in HR

(25:19) Finding Balance: The Importance of Safe Spaces and Ownership

(26:34) The Unpopularity of HR Decisions and Its Impact

(30:21) Learning from Mistakes and Self Reflection

(35:07) Valuing Your Own Happiness

(38:18) Creating a Culture of Openness and Trust

(43:09) Insights on Early Stage Hiring and CEO Involvement

(49:24) Wrap

In this segment, Nolan and Kelli talk about how to be recession-proof and share tactical advice on network-building for a resilient career.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(00:24) How to be Layoff-Proof

(01:00) Investing in Your Network and Building a Recession-Proof Career

(07:08) Practical Steps to Expand Your Professional Network

(10:02) The Job Doesn't Just Happen

(12:35) Sponsor: Attio

(13:32) Make Time to Keep Your Network Warm

(15:24) Expand Your Surface Area of Luck

(17:02) Wrap

In this episode Nolan and Kelli investigate the “recruiting is like art and science” analogy with the Chief People Officer at Pendo, JR Rettig. 

JR digs into the decisions that led her to the CPO seat, working closely with Kelli. JR also covers the needs for businesses to budget for leaving C-Suite leaders and succession planning, the advantages of a hybrid internal and external recruiting method for execs, and how to maintain a high bar in talent acquisition.

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now. hrheretics.substack.com

SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

KEEP UP WITH JR, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

JR: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenrettig/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:22) How JR and Kelli Became Work Wives

(05:35) Yin and Yang in Professional Relationships

(08:26) CPO Seat Then and Now

(11:06) Learning Together: The Secret Sauce of Success

(14:10) Sponsor - Attio

(15:06) Pulling top talent in a Competitive Tech Landscape

(19:24) The CEO's Role in Hiring: Ensuring Quality Over Quantity

(24:19) Scaling the Recruiting Team

(28:19) Mindset Shift from Recruiter to TA Leader

(30:11) Maintaining High Quality in Recruitment Amidst Challenges

(34:26) Balancing In-House and Agency Recruitment

(41:49) Succession Planning and Building Trust within Teams

(45:40) A Culture of Openness and Trust for Smooth Transitions

(50:49) What Really Makes a Great Company?

(57:10) Wrap

This segment is all about getting promoted while playing the game of corporate politics, maintaining great relationships, and executing well in your role. In the second half, Kelli and Nolan discuss whether you can get promoted too fast.

Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe: hrheretics.substack.com

--

SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

--

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:36) What Drives Promotion Obsession?

(01:18) Get Your Foot in the Door, Then Climb the Corporate Ladder

(02:13) The Game of Corporate Politics and Relationships

(04:26) Get Used to the Politics…

(05:21) …But Don’t Be Like a Slimy Car Salesman

(06:21) Advocating for Yourself

(09:10) Sponsor: Attio

(10:05) The Double-Edged Sword of Rapid Promotion

(12:38) Framework for Employee Scaling

(14:51) The Dirty Secret of A Founder Not Doing Well

(16:48) Wrap

—

GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli host A.J. Thomas of X, the moonshot factory from Alphabet. A.J for a discussion about failure, innovation, and embracing adversity. They also discuss the importance of scenario planning and asking all the questions upfront as a baseline for business optimization.

While at X, A.J. embraces the notion that professional breakthrough requires personal breakthrough and her perspective on the relentless pursuit of truth, dispassionate assessment, and the power of curiosity provides invaluable insights into cultivating a mindset of innovation and resilience.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe to our Substack: https://hrheretics.substack.com/. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network.

HR Heretics is brought to you by Attio the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:07) Unique Approach to Onboarding

(10:09) Creative Hiring and Community Outreach

(13:07) Change and Clarity

(14:20) Sponsor: Attio

(15:52) Scenario Planning

(19:07) AJ's Journey to X, Google’s Moonshot Factory

(29:56) Embracing Failure

(33:00) The Unrecruiting Route - Why You Shouldn't Join

(42:23) Dispassionate Assessment

(44:46) The Relentless Pursuit of Truth

(47:58) Authenticity

(50:48) Being on the Front Line and the Quest for Learning

KEEP UP WITH A.J., NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

A.J.: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelejeanthomas/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli are joined by Joelle Emerson, CEO of Paradigm, to discuss why diversity numbers aren't improving quickly in companies and the challenges in measuring DEI progress.

This episode explores the complexities of measuring impact, discusses the trade-offs of long-term strategies, and offers insights for navigating the current backlash.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

This episode is brought to you by Warp. Don’t let payroll and compliance hold your startup back: visit https://joinwarp.com/peel to get started and receive a $1000 gift card when your first run payroll.

KEEP UP WITH JOELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Joelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelle-emerson-4a24225

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Paradigm:

https://www.paradigmiq.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:58) Paradigm's mission and work in diversity and inclusion 

(01:55) Discussion on slow progress in diversity representation 

(03:48) Long-term investments in diversity initiatives 

(06:52) Measuring progress and acknowledging small wins in DEI 

(10:47) Adapting DEI work in response to backlash 

(14:37) Importance of effective messaging in DEI efforts 

(14:48) Sponsors: Planful | Workvivo

(17:26) Distraction from the Backlash

(27:28) Sponsors: Metaview | Warp

(27:55) Legal considerations and challenges in DEI work 

(30:51) Discussion on problematic hiring practices in DEI 

(34:43) Turning down clients who don't align with DEI values 

(36:37) The role of dedicated DEI teams in organizations 

(39:29) Echo chambers and polarization in DEI discussions 

(44:38) Trade-offs in DEI investments and hiring processes 

(47:38) Debate on blind auditions and diversity in hiring 

(49:45) Wrap

This segment delves into the intricacies of board member dynamics, specifically focusing on the removal of board members. Highlighted by the situation involving Michael Moritz's removal from Klarna's board, the discussion covers the complexities and nuances of board construction, including the distinction between preferred and independent board members, contract terms, and the impact of diversity.

We need to demystify board operations — how they work, voting dynamics, and what they do! Open call for any listener (ex-CEO preferred) who can come dig into the gritty details of board dynamics in a future episode.

Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe. hrheretics.substack.com

--

SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

--

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:22) The Complex World of Boards

(03:53) Sponsor - Attio

(04:48) Nolan and Kelli Share their Experiences and Expectations of Board Members

(07:52) Picking Investors and Board Members

(08:22) Board Construction

(09:52) Diversity of Boards When A Company Matures

(10:32) Stories From DoorDash

(11:32) The Mysterious Notion of Board Votes and Equity Approval

--

GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

Do companies need HR? Kelli and Nolan discuss a recent episode of All In (the #1 Business podcast in the world) which championed a utopian vision of dismantling HR inside companies, a conversation ignited by Sequoia’s Shaun Maguire exposing Google’s promotion policies. Kelli and Nolan discuss how we even got to this point of frustration, what’s worth decentralizing, and what would fall apart without HR. What do you think?Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe: video episodes in your inbox: hrheretics.substack.com

This episode is brought to you by Attio.Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Emergency Segment

(00:49) Discussion on the All In Podcast's Take on HR

(01:05) Shaun Maguire’s Tweet About Google

(02:16) Debate on the Role and Future of HR

(08:56) Sponsor: Attio

(09:55) High Growth Companies Without HR?

(11:37) HR & Business Outcomes

(15:27) CTA

—

GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

In today’s segment, Kelli and Nolan discusses Shopify's recent announcement of their ‘~Mastery’ dual track system, rewarding management and craftspeople equally.

Kelli and Nolan also delve into topics such job leveling, advancement, and performance reviews and share personal stories from DoorDash and Yahoo.Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe: hrheretics.substack.com

--SPONSOR:This episode is brought to you by Attio, the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics 

--TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction to Shopify's New Mastery Approach

(01:09) Nolan and Kelli’s Initial Reactions

(2:13) The Concept of Six-Month Work Sprints

(05:43) IC Track and Manager Track

(07:20) The DoorDash Story

(08:42) Sponsor - Attio

(09:39) The Evolution of Workforce and Organizational Structures

(14:07)  Shifting from Management to Mastery Roles

--LINKS:Shopify Mastery: https://www.shopify.com/news/mastery

--GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

--

HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co

In this episode, Kelli and special guest co-host Colleen McCreary go from 0 to 100 with David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH), creator of Ruby on Rails and co-founder of 37signals (Basecamp). The discussion covers 37signals’ radical policies and the “no politics at work” policy that got them canceled on Twitter after corporate America “went woke”. They also discuss the no managers rule that embraces more efficiency in a limited 40 hour work week and why overworking is a dated mindset. David also talks about his love of programming and the development of Ruby on Rails through his unique approach, and how it went on to impact other programmers.

Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Susbscribe now: Hrheretics.substack.com

HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at turpentine.co

--

This episode is brought to you by Attio

Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics

--

KEEP UP WITH DHH, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

DHH: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-heinemeier-hansson-374b18221/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Preview

(05:00) Creating Ruby on Rails: DHH's Experience

(10:00) Making Your Code Sing

(12:31) The Role of Management

(14:34) Sponsor - Attio

(16:21) Code is Easy, People are Hard - Aligning and Developing Philosophies

(20:50) Refining the Work Week and How to Get More Out of It

(25:53) Having a Creative Space Within a 40-hour Work Week

(31:01) Office Work vs Remote Work

(34:27) Discussing Diversity and Choices in Companies

(36:10) Wokeness and Surviving Cancel Culture

(41:42) The Importance of Clarity and Identity

(47:18) Radical Candor

(50:54) The Misinterpretation of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion

(56:58) Honest Conversations in the Workplace

(59:50) DHH's Take on the HR Profession

(01:05:35) Wrap—

--

LINKS:

Radical Candor by Kim Scott

DHH's Writing: https://world.hey.com/dhh

Employee Handbook: https://basecamp.com/handbook