Get inspired by people who found fulfilment and joy in their career. Learn how they identified their vocation. Hear the courageous changes they made to follow their passion and purpose.
It is hosted by Grégoire Lemaitre who is on a mission to help people start on their own path to meaningful success.
A journey he has himself embarked on after 15 years in a career that had the usual markers of success but lacked purpose and joy.
Greg is a career and leadership coach. He co-founded Dare Be, which delivers the 6-week Find Direction Course (www.darebe.me/course).
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#20 Managing the mess of life, from Harvard to politics to startup
Season 1 · Episode 20
Thursday, December 8, 2022 • Duration 43:29
A warm welcome to the Dare Be Podcast where I interview people who have followed their passion and mission.
My guest in this episode is Guillaume Liégey, an entrepreneur. He co-founded eXplain, a startup to combine his passion for politics and his desire to work with great people.While at the Harvard Kennedy School, he witnessed how data-driven and field-focused Obama's campaign was. So he decided to bring back to France this best practice. He did it with the French Socialist party in 2012. He then worked closely with Emmanuel Macron to create and launch the En Marche party which won the French presidential election in 2017.
Preferring to focus on his business he made the tough decision to withdraw from the campaign and to pivot the business.In this episode Guillaume also talks about the joys and struggles of being an entrepreneur, such as the many nos entrepreneurs have to receive in fundraising, about balancing ambition and ego, about learning humility as a Parisian consultant in a factory in Marseille and much more. I think you'll enjoy this conversation!
#19 From art enthusiast at school to a successful jewellery brand
Season 1 · Episode 19
Friday, September 30, 2022 • Duration 46:51
A warm welcome to the Dare Be Podcast where I interview people who have followed their passion and mission.
My guest in this episode is Anna Molinari, founder of the jewellery brand Atelier Molinari. She shares the pivotal moments in her story of falling in love with art at school and being challenged for it; of the magical trip to the Gem Palace in Jaipur India when she instantly knew she was meant to become a jewellery designer; of the sacrifices she’s had to make for 6 years; of her long, underground learning journey through Jaipur, Paris, London and New York; of the crazy day when the buyer of one of the most prestigious retail stores in the world offered to sell her own jewellery creations. I hope you get inspired by her courage and determination to pursue her dream and make it happen.
[00:03:32] Two things she loves most: drawing and picking stones
[00:05:19] Getting in the zone of limitless possibilities when drawing rings
[00:06:57] A ring is a like a little sculpture, unlike earrings and necklaces which move
[00:07:37] Her first rings were made of cigarette packs and the metal piece holding champagne corks
[00:08:10] The story of her first ring that also started the design of her entire collection
[00:09:56] Exploring the idea of creating lace out of gold in her art studies at Central Saint Martins
[00:11:25] Selecting stones: like being a kid in a candy store
[00:12:57] The jewellery industry is all about trust
[00:15:46] The emotions stones can generate
[00:18:00] The start of her journey: made to feel not good enough at school except in her Friday afternoon art lessons
[00:18:49] Anna:"I wanna do art. That's what makes me feel alive!" Headteacher:"This is a big problem."
[00:19:47] Getting her parents' support
[00:21:05] The power of having people believing in you
[00:21:24] Preparing her portfolio was the first time she enjoyed working
[00:21:47] Being surrounded and inspired by people who want to make it through their passion
[00:23:35] The enchanted encounter with the world of jewellery in India
[00:24:43] Jewellery for the exploration and enjoyment of it
[00:25:58] The gentle arm twist of a famous jewellery designer to have her move from New York to Jaipur, India
[00:27:04] Selling a necklace of muscle-like diamonds to Diane von Furstenberg
[00:27:44] Making the scary move to Jaipur
[00:29:22] Living in the enchanted Jewellery world and in simple conditions far from her family
[00:30:52] First move out of India to Paris: hated it
[00:31:30] Who can hire me to stay in New York and see the upcoming Met's jewellery exhibition?
[00:32:04] Next steps in Paris, London, New York, India: who can teach me import? Client relationships? Invoicing?
[00:33:02] Her 6 year project to launch her brand
[00:33:40] The moment Bon Marché's buyer in Paris wants to work with her
[00:34:45] Disbelief, fear of failing and ... calling for help
[00:36:44] Struggling to sell her own creations (I relate!)
[00:37:32] Selling stories instead of her creations
[00:38:39] Crushing through Bon Marché's secret target and being called by Fortnum and Mason
[00:39:49] The 6-year struggle with no option but to continue
[00:40:49] Believing in the value of work that matters to you
[00:41:17] Being part of the engagement stories
[00:42:03] Her most expensive versus the most valuable piece of jewellery she's held
[00:43:33] The art of celebrating and giving
[00:44:20] Learn from every single experience!
#10 Overcoming. From drug-dealing to self-love and success in music and public speaking
Season 1 · Episode 10
Tuesday, November 23, 2021 • Duration 01:45:10
Listen to the enthralling story of Curtis Blanc, or Tis. From failed music beginnings, to drug-dealing, to nearing death several times, to prison, to award-winning radio-presenter, to sought-after public speaker, to 50£-a-day sound engineer, to successful music entrepreneur, to spoken-word artist, Tis has seen and learnt a lot. He is now on a mission to help youth and music artists to grow their self-awareness and self-love and succeed.
Tis comes from an under-privileged background in West London. School had no interest for him until he found music. With music he got distinctions for the first time in his life. He enjoyed creating electronic music and setting up sound systems. American and British rappers made him believe that success was within easy reach. He started his music business with passion… and some naivety about what it would take to “make it”.
Instead, he was focused on avoiding the lack of money he suffered from in his childhood by dealing drug. As he participated in gang life, consumed drugs and played video games, music took the back seat. Until he got caught by the police with high quantities of class-A drugs and cash. He pleaded guilty and got sentenced to 4 years in prison. Tis says his low point in life was dealing drugs, rather than prison where he was finally free from his gang and from drugs.
That’s when he started writing a very different story for his life.
Listen to his incredible story here. or on your usual podcast player or read the key learnings below.
Bonus! Listen Tis’ beautiful poem at the very end of the episode.
You can find Tis on Twitter at @tisrespect.
My Learnings from this episode
Being of service to others is the meaning of life
The more we give, the more we receive! We all need to feel valued for our contributions. When we stop delivering value to others, life loses its meaning. In fact, being of service is what makes you valuable. When you are not of service, you are only a consumer in life and you will not be able to sustain any relationship. Drugs make people consumers and make them lose their ability to be of service. That’s why drug addicts lose their relationships. And yes of course we need to take care of ourselves to be able to be of better service.
#9 A journey following my truth
Season 1 · Episode 9
Friday, November 5, 2021 • Duration 01:16:00
What a discussion with the lively, witty, laughing and authentic Kenza Barrada. She shares lessons on knowing when to say: “I’m done.” and when you are aligned. She shares how she crafted her professional life based on her evolving personal needs. She explains how she first found meaning in her tasks and then sought deeper meaning in the service to others. This is also the story of staying whole by integrating all the different parts we are made of. And finally she explains how meditation and gratitude made her journey an even more beautiful one.
Kenza Barrada is the Founder and CEO of the WAOW Project, a leadership and team development consultancy. She is also the co-Founder of @it Razala, a permaculture and eco-agriculture project south of Marrakesh in Morocco where she grows a sustainable and edible forest with her husband and children. She is a passionate and expert problem solver! Before this Kenza worked in Morocco, France and across Africa, South America and even Asia in strategic consulting mostly for McKinsey. She started her career in the Consumer Goods Industry.
Key Learnings
Knowing when to say: “I’m done.”
A few times in her career, Kenza said “I’m done!”. First she was done with working in the Consumer Goods industry in emerging countries where the population had more pressing needs than buying diapers or shampoo. Then she was done with Strategic Consulting at McKinsey because it did not fit her new personal life needs.
“It's very personal, but it didn't make any sense to me. And I remember myself in Argentina waking up in the morning to go to work as a sales junior, junior something for L’Oréal and I started just crying and say: ‘I can not do that. I can not do that. I can not see myself doing that in the next year or the next years.’”
How to know when you are aligned
Kenza shares how she has known deep inside herself that she needed a change in her career and life. “I know that I'm aligned when deep inside of me, I feel it's okay. I feel there is nothing more for me there. It's very difficult to just put words on that, but it feels right when you say “I'm done, it's finished, I'm moving to something else”. Inside it's totally quiet and it's okay. And then of course there could be fear in my head or whatever. And of course my head can tell 10,000 things. But deep inside, it's quiet. And it's okay with what's happening and I trust this feeling.”
#8 Building a startup after burnout while growing a family and fighting cancer
Season 1 · Episode 8
Wednesday, October 13, 2021 • Duration 42:43
Lessons on managing stress and anxiety in high-pressure jobs, illnesses and transitions; on how to go after what you really want, not away from what you don’t want; on how to back yourself to make a successful transition; and much more!
Greg talks to Gareth Fryer, the co-Founder and co-CEO of Fika, the up-and-coming mental fitness app and start-up.
Gareth’ burn-out led him to quit his job as a partner in a consultancy and give up an earn-out. He learnt to manage stress and anxiety by building emotional literacy. He followed his purpose by building a startup that focuses on solving the root-causes of mental health issues. While growing a family and his young startup, he fought back stage 3C Melanoma cancer.
Key Learnings
How to manage the stress of cancer, high-pressure jobs and transitions before it manages you
“The inevitable challenges of life happened to me through my career and struggling with anxiety and fear, making myself feel all the time like, "why are you stressed? Why are you anxious? You're under so much pressure, but just don't be stressed, just don't be anxious!" And taking on more and more as we built the company and getting to the point where I just had to walk away from it all, to be honest, I didn't recognize it as burnout at the time. I just knew I was done and I had to leave and do something else. I was just at a point where I felt like I just didn't want to do that anymore. Irrespective of the financial benefit or the great things we were doing as a team. It just got to a point for me where my own state of my mental well-being was something that I'd never really paid attention to. As a typical bloke, I'd always just been, oh, I'm fine. Feeling anxious and stress wasn't the problem. It was not being able to understand how to classify those emotions and not having the right toolkit to manage them and being a bit illiterate in my own understanding of mental fitness to be honest. That led me to need to leave and seek different avenues and do something more meaningful.”
“The stress comes from how you take those challenges and then are able to either prioritize them or put them into opportunities. And for me, it obviously sounds really easy to say now, but that's been a long period of reflection and to recognize that.”
#7 Taking the leap from lawyer to primary school teacher.
Season 1 · Episode 7
Thursday, September 30, 2021 • Duration 38:36
Lessons on learning about yourself, paying attention to your interests, your strengths, what brings you joy... and all the opposite! Also about the mental steps to take to make a career shift.
Greg talks to Rob Firth who transitioned from a well-paid and clearly laid-out profession as a solicitor in the City of London to become a primary school teacher.
As a teenager Rob decided to pursue a career in Law after a short placement working with Barristers in the City. The vibe, the suits and ties, and the wit of the people he worked for attracted him. But a few years later, when it came to actually doing the job as a solicitor, he did not enjoy it. Instead, reading law papers over the weekend to get ahead of competition felt like mental torture. Recognising his situation was difficult because he was not sure what he wanted to do. He was also scared of losing what he’d invested into becoming a lawyer, of looking like a failure and of giving up the financial comfort. After trying different areas of law, different partners, different departments and different law firms, he finally decided to pursue what clearly appealed as his vocation.
Pay attention to your pleasant thoughts and emotions - they guide you towards your interests and strengths
“What I find with teaching is that once I get going, I feel in my flow and it feels natural. So after the first 10 seconds [on my first day] of being a bit nervous and perhaps mispronouncing some names, it just felt natural. And it progressed nicely.”
“When I was a lawyer I would do pro bono work. Wednesday lunch times some people went to the local primary school and taught math and English. And that was the highlight of my week. And I remember saying, I love this. And I said why don't you do it full-time? why don't you become a teacher? I already knew I didn't enjoy it or I just would never admit it to myself. When I knew I was doing this podcast, I was talking to my wife about it and she was saying, it's just being honest with yourself and trying to tap into yourself and know what you truly want.”
“I enjoy reading about education, about learning. It doesn't feel as much like work in my spare time. It's enjoyment. if I find a subject that I'm interested in, then I will do that naturally. And that subject just wasn't law for me. I didn't find a niche within law. I wasn’t willing to put in that extra effort in, whereas with education, I just find it fascinating. It just feels more natural and it's more relaxing. Whereas with law, it felt like a burden and not feeling good at doing your job. It is an emotional stress.”
Look for and observe people who inspire you. What about them inspires you? This is usually a useful cue as to what you want more in your life.
“I started going out with my girlfriend who became my wife. And she loved her job. She's a self-employed artist. And I saw that enjoyment that she got from it. And I thought you can obviously do it. And I would quite like a piece of that. So it was seeing someone who'd actually done it because speaking to a lot of my friends from university and from school were lawyers, accountants, bankers working in London, very similar. And so this was something new and refreshing.”
“It was fortunate that I saw a person who could get a real sense of enjoyment from their work. And I thought I should try and find that as well.”
“Having that firsthand account of someone who has that true happiness in their job and, their career, I just thought, if I can see this, now someone's done it, I want to try. I owe it to myself and to her, to try to find it as well.”
Be curious and accept your unpleasant experiences - they also serve you as a guide away from your energy drainers!
“I remember going into my first review with a couple of partners and they were discussing how I was getting on. And part of me wanted them to almost say, you're not good enough. We don't want you here. You're fired. Essentially part of me wanted that and then it will make the decision for me.”
“I just wasn't happy. I just didn't enjoy it. There wasn't a sense of flow, there wasn't natural enjoyment. There were definitely people who were similar to me and didn't enjoy it. It was like a slug. I was going through the motions I suppose, but I did see people who did get a buzz out of doing these deals who liked the late nights. I just didn't find it interesting.”
“Not only did I not know what to do. I was also at this stage thinking I've invested so much time into this, surely I need to try and make it work or put a bit more effort into it and maybe I’ll enjoy it. So I took some tax books home and tried to make notes on them in my spare time and try and understand it and delve into it. That lasted a couple of weekends and I thought I can't do this. I did make an effort just to try, but I think I was just kidding myself, essentially.”
“We both came up with the fact I should become a teacher but still parts of me wasn't willing to accept that. And so I thought I've only been in this law firm. Why don't I try another law firm in a different area of law? So then I had a few interviews at different law firms.”
“And it felt like a relief to figure out in my head that I didn't enjoy law, being honest with that. I just couldn't take that jump then there was a part of me that had to try something else first within law. I was talking to a colleague and she said, you're just delaying the inevitable by moving into another role. You're going to go back to teaching. But if it makes you feel happier than try it in a different area of law.”
Create the time, space and expose yourself to diverse experiences to learn and test your interests, your strengths and what you enjoy.
“The most important thing for me was just being honest with myself because when you're making these decisions about what career and you're choosing your subjects at 16, you don't know a lot about yourself.”
“When I was training, what I really enjoyed to do was to go into other classes and watch other teachers teach and I haven't had that opportunity. And I think that's a fantastic way to learn from it. Who have got more experience than me, or perhaps teach in a different way or different style and then try and take bits that I like from that.”
“Initially when I thought of teaching, I initially thought of secondary school. So I hadn't even considered primary school at that stage. I was thinking I can't make the same mistake as I did with law. I want to try and get plenty of experience and to know what I'm getting into. So then I organized placements at schools. Week-long experiences at different schools just to get a feel of those schools.[I ended up teaching in a primary school!]”
“I never properly sat down and thought about what I want to do. So it's just giving yourself that time and space to think, and then try and get as much exposure as you can.”
Proactively consider your (alternative) career options however attractive your financial future looks like.
“Another partner came along, so they were trying to expand the tax team and he came along and he was very different. And there was a different dynamic within the team. I didn't enjoy that as much. And I found it a lot more challenging and not as enjoyable. And then that's when I was really starting to consider is law for me, I have already changed within six months. It would have been about two and a half, three years.”
“Because I knew then I wasn't enjoying it, but I didn't know what else there was. I'd never properly sat down to think about what other options are there.”
“At that stage, money becomes a factor though. Because you're getting well-paid and you know every year your salary is going to increase by a certain amount. And it's quite nice to have that.”
“I was just thinking, will it get better? Well after a few years, will it become more interesting? Will I just enjoy it more? I didn't get a buzz from it.”
“I do think law is a career that if you do find that niche that you really enjoy, it's an amazing career. But I hadn't found it and I tried a couple of different variations and still hadn't found it. So I thought I've had my go here. I should try something else. I just thought there's got to be something else. I should just try something else while I'm still young. It didn't have children at that stage, so I thought, take a risk now rather than get even more embedded into it. Something was obviously telling me I should try something else.”
“It would be a lot more convenient if I'd done that before, before choosing to go into a training contract. But it's so tough within the system of work experience. You never know what the true aspects of your job will be until you're there, so it's quite hard to know. It was perhaps naive of me not to try other careers and thinking at that stage, what am I passionate about? And try and forge your career after that.”
Projecting yourself into the future is a powerful tool to assess whether to pursue a career
“I worked in the tax department and I was just thinking, could I see myself? Where's the next step? Is it continue here, try and make partner. And I was saying, I'm not enjoying it at the moment. How can I do this for another 5, 6, 10 years, however long it is to become partner. So that made me start to think, maybe you need to see what else is out there.”
“I could just see myself, had I continued in law. I'd just be a miserable old man. It just wouldn't be that fun to be around.”
Considering making a jump is often the scariest bit. Analyse your fears - what are they about? Be careful of the fears that relate to how others perceive you!
“By nature, I'm quite risk averse. I'd invested all this time in law. So why would I then go into teaching? It's almost a status symbol, with law and I think, oh, would it be seen as a failure if I then went into teaching? So I think all of these questions are going through my head. Obviously pay as well, having the salary of a lawyer is a lot more than a salary of a teacher. There were just a lot of factors and I scared myself out of it. it was essentially just being too afraid to make that jump, not having the confidence to make it.”
“I didn't have a plan at that stage. What I wanted to do was go into teaching and assess my options. So I felt I needed an income and I thought tutoring would provide me with an income. And it's also something that I've identified that I enjoy. So that was like a safe bet. And then I'd set up little goals, of what I wanted to do during that next year, because that's officially left law.”
“My parents were quite worried. You’ve got this mortgage you need to pay, will you find the money? you've obviously got accustomed to a certain style of life, will you be able to afford and just a lot of questions. It's a good thing because I need to address them myself. But now they can see that I do really enjoy teaching and it was a good decision and that's another thing, even though it's my decision, I was still thinking about how they would perceive it.”
“To make that initial leap - and I delayed it a little bit - I knew that's the route I was going down. And just thinking about what steps I needed to put in place beforehand, and you can't put all the steps in place, but for me, it was having that little bit of financial security. So as soon as I got that job with the tutoring I thought it would work its way out in one way or another, follow a path and an interest.”
Greg: “What's been the most difficult part of making that leap?” Rob: “It was the initial bit, just to know, is this a mistake or not? And when I handed in my resignation letter afterwards, I felt really like relief and joy. So I knew that was it. The correct thing to do. So that was like a big tip, but it was before that, not is this the right thing? There is still that financial doubt, but it does just seem to work out.”
“The hardest thing was admitting to myself that this is what I need to do. And then taking the plunge to do it.”
#6 The 4-shift career path to loving what you do, being good at it and helping others… in Finance
Season 1 · Episode 6
Tuesday, September 14, 2021 • Duration 36:00
The story of finding fulfilment in a career in Finance. On the iterations
to find one’s career sweet spot, on clarifying what you want and don’t
want, on confronting other people's perceptions to make a shift, on the
career path matrix and much more.
#5 A couple on an successful entrepreneurial journey in well-being
Season 1 · Episode 5
Monday, August 30, 2021 • Duration 37:01
In this episode, Greg talks to Joana and Pierre Meyer, the founders of Nordic Balance, a well-being company based in London. They share their story going from senior roles in catering to personal training to creating a gym to opening multiple therapy clinics. All of this while founding a family.
Their journey has humble beginnings. Their clarity on what they wanted, their patience, their love of what they do, the complementary team they form, their openness to opportunities has led them to success.
Would you like to clarify your career goals? Visit www.darebe.me for a FREE guided coaching exercise.
Knowing and doing what you want
Joana: I was maturing a little bit. I think up until the point where I came to London, I was very unsettled as a person, as, not really knowing why I wanted to go, what direction I wanted to go, where I wanted to be. And I realized actually, maybe the time was good to be a little bit more serious.
Joana: I realized after doing the catering for many years, that actually I very much didn't like it. I was good at it, but that's mostly because I'm good at most physical, practical things. But I didn't enjoy it. So what I did enjoy was physical health and fitness and wellbeing. And so I reeducated myself to become a personal trainer. And that's how I started. That is slowly how, I guess the seed was born for Nordic balance.
Joana: When they told Pierre, you won't be able to take time off for the birth of your son, Pierre just threw the towel in and said, okay, then I quit.
Pierre: I was then working in this job, which on paper was amazing. And, I was working with the CEO of this business and it was a bit of a fast track thing and effectively he wanted to grow his business and he thought that I was the right guy to do it. When they said, we don't legally have to give you any time off. I thought: how many kids are we going to have? We can have two, right? I'm not gonna miss this for a job. And so for me, it started becoming a reasonably simple decision at that point.
We started to talk a lot about designing our lives to work for us. So finding a solution that would work well with our family so that we could spend the time that we wanted with them and hopefully, earn some money, doing it at the same time.
#3 Journalism with Heart and Soul
Season 1 · Episode 3
Friday, July 23, 2021 • Duration 45:24
In this episode I am discussing with Louise Dewast. In her early 30s she has already been a foreign correspondent for the BBC in Africa, covered the Trump election in 2016 for the French television, reported on the Paris attacks in 2015, and she’s interviewed heads of states.
In this episode she tells the story of her light-bulb moment when she knew "there is nothing else" than journalism that she wanted to do. She then took several very courageous steps to do what she really wanted for herself. She explains how this has evolved over time, from focusing on her career to also taking care of her life in its entirety. Still with a passion for journalism!
It was an inspiring discussion for me and I hope you enjoy it.
#2 - de Banquiers d’affaire a Restaurateurs
Episode 2
Friday, July 2, 2021 • Duration 46:54
- Exceptionally, this is a French episode.
Grégoire parle avec Alexandre Lacroix et Antoine Micouin, 2 banquiers d'affaire Francais qui ont travaillé a New York et Paris et qui se sont associés pour devenir restaurateurs et ouvrir leur propre restaurant.
- Nous avons eu une discussion passionnante ou Alexandre et Antoine expliquent pourquoi et comment ils ont changé de vie pour suivre leur passion.
- Je leur parlais avant la réouverture des restaurants a Paris. Leur restaurant qui s'appelle HIRU H I R U a Montmartre a ouvert bien plus tard que prévu a cause du COVID. Ils ont déjà des revues excellentes et sont applaudis par la presse.
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Towards the end of his sentence, Tis had the opportunity to work outside of prison during the day and sleep in prison during the night. Paid jobs were scarce. Instead he focused on meaningful jobs where he could volunteer. Volunteering put him in a position to demonstrate that he had something that people wanted. At the end of prison he got offered a fixed-term contract and a very strong reference.
Education is a choice
While in prison Tis decided that he would educate himself. He knew that people would always judge him for his past mistakes - so he wanted to focus on over-shadowing them.
He did not know what he wanted to do coming out of prison. He simply turned prison into an opportunity to better himself: education was free! In prison, he got better at identifying the things that were good for him. He started reading books for the first time.
Greg’s perspective: I love how Tis acknowledgement and accepted his reality. Acknowledging and accepting are crucial steps towards meaningful change. For many of us it is very difficult to even acknowledge that we’ve done wrong, let alone accept our faults.
Make choices instead of reacting to strong emotions like anger
One day, a riot broke up. Out of anger, Tis got into an argument with a guard. He got barred from the radio studio as a result for 3 months. From this moment onward he knew there would be plenty of opportunities for him to mess things up. So he decided he would always put himself into a position of choice instead of letting his anger dictate what would happen.
Greg’s perspective: this is much easier said than done. It all starts with awareness. You can use the RAIN model developed by Tara Brach. First, recognise that you are feeling an emotion. Allow the experience of anger to be there. This means allowing your anger to be. This part has been the most difficult for me because it requires accepting that we are experiencing this emotion. Third, investigate with interest and care, being curious in a non-judgemental way. I have also found this very difficult! Finally Nurture with self-compassion. Give yourself AND your emotion some love.
The power of reading or hearing others’ stories
One book changed Tis mindset while in prison: Redemption by Stanley Tookie Williams who was on death row in the USA. His story gave Tis a very different perspective on his life in prison. He had not done that much wrong and had “only” 4 years to serve! It helped him move from feeling like a powerless victim to being in charge of his destiny.
Tis also experienced the power of telling his own story to people. Most notably, in a one-hour speech given to police officers, he shifted the beliefs of a 60-year old police officer who had some racist biases against black people.
Speaking from the heart is what touches people
Tis became a sought-after public speaker. He would speak from the heart, challenge people, be authentic, transparent and vulnerable. He would tell things as they are, laying things bare. He was not trying to impress, and did not care about the expectations. He was just sharing his story. It resonated with people.
Greg’s perspective: It’s not easy to be vulnerable, acknowledge our weaknesses, failures or mistakes to others. I know a bit about it… this is my blog post, drawing two lessons from losing my job. Hitting “publish” on this post was difficult. But a lot of good (within and externally) came from it because it made me more real and human to others - and to myself!
Crafting your professional life based on your evolving personal needs
Through most of her career, Kenza responded to her changing needs. When her mother passed away, she needed a change of environment. When she wanted to reconcile with her home country Morocco, she worked as a strategic consultant supporting the government. When she wanted to focus on her family and her desire to be more creative, she quit McKinsey to found her consultancy.
From having meaning in the tasks to finding meaning in the service to others
Kenza loved being a consultant. She loved the interaction with the people, gathering facts on the ground, using her intuition to come up with creative solutions and then testing them through models. She enjoyed working for the government. All of this gave her meaning and satisfaction in her work. Yet she felt the need for an even deeper meaning in her work. She was working on important societal topics, yet she was still some distance from fundamental topics, such as climate and food. That’s how she started specialising in agriculture.
Staying whole, bringing the different parts of ourselves on our journey
Throughout her journey, when making significant changes, Kenza tried to integrate “all her parts, not to leave anything on the side.” For instance she left McKinsey but she still works for them, providing training to staff. She does not work on agricultural projects anymore but she founded her own permaculture farm.
The magic of being in the here and now with meditation
While a strategic consultant at McKinsey, Kenza was working on projects through Africa and beyond. Her rhythm was frantic, travelling most of the time and working with highly senior public and private figures. Her marriage was in trouble. That’s when she deepened her meditation practise.
“We took speedboats and we spent hours on the speedboats on the Congolese river with the sun setting right in front of us. And it was just so magical. I deeply connected with this moment because of my meditation practice that just allowed me to be completely present to that magical moment. I was not telling myself stories about what to do next, the next deliverable, the next meeting, the role I had to play, blah, blah, blah. I was not having any blah, blah, blah In my mind. I was just present to what was going on in my life.”
Making the journey more manageable with meditation and gratitude
When I asked her the last piece of advice for people looking for direction, Kenza said what “really helped me is to completely commit to two small routines that are helping the journey and helping the process. The meditation routine of 20 minutes really helped me. There is [also] a gratitude routine that is embedded in our lives. So every evening before we go to bed, we say thanks to each other, for something that we have appreciated.”
“"Fear is a waste of a perfectly good imagination." You could put the fear on what if it doesn't work, the reality is, I backed myself. If it didn't work, I'd do something else. So much that you train your mind to not focus on that output and put your energies instead into “How are we going to make it work?”
“My job was literally thinking about what could happen, what might happen from what could go wrong. What if with multiple spinning plates? How do they all connect? So I always felt really anxious because I always saw all of the things that could be done and all of the things that could happen, what I now know. And what I've learned is that anxiety is nothing bad. That anxiety was, I was manifesting it badly, but anxiety is part of your limbic nervous system. It's how you think about consequences and plan for the future. So actually I've recognized that perceived weakness has a direct line to what actually is one of my biggest strengths. I'm no more or less anxious. The framing of it, the volume of it is completely turned down because it doesn't, it isn't a negative emotion for me anymore. It's an acceptance of, an emotion that I've flipped into a positive because it is a key driver that helps me do what I do, but that's the journey that, the Fika journey that I've been on. And it sounds again, easy to say now, but it's been five years from the point of leaving to now to really go on that emotional journey to learn these things for myself.”
Greg: ”What advice would you give to people who want to make a change, but are afraid of making the steps to change?” Gareth: “When we're facing any period of challenge or transition, we feel anxious. We're supposed to, it's an evolutionary response, thinking about the consequences of what might happen, that's normal. And that's actually nothing bad. Worrying about what might happen is a completely normal evolutionary response. It doesn't mean anyone is ill. It just means we're planning for what might happen. We feel a bit stressed because that's our performance mechanism kicking in, helping us get ready to face the challenge. And it's that difference between positive and negative stress, and chronic and acute anxiety. And actually when we are in a state of positive stress, it's as if we have the tools and resources to overcome or to do the things that we think are facing us. And that's positive stress, it's the motivator. And one of the best ways to focus on those positive stress is by looking back on previous situations. So we, we typically we are tuned to focus on the negative, to think about the worst that could possibly happen. That's our brains. And actually most of the time, things turn out better than we expect. That's what the science shows us. So we are tuned to be negative, even though generally things turn out better than we expect them to generally. In those periods of transition, you cannot predict what's going to happen. It's physically impossible, or you can do is look at the things that. Where have you experienced this situation or similar situations before? Where have you faced at the unknown? Where, how, and actually, how did you react in those situations? Because the chances are, that's how you'll react again.”
“We all think we have to be confident before we do. The science is the exact opposite. You only get confident as a result of going through those transition periods and the more you do it, the more your self efficacy builds, the more confident you feel, and the more then you push on from that. But so this whole thing of confidence before action. Is not the way that we work. We have to go through the challenge. We do the challenge, and then we feel more confident. So drawing back on previous experiences where you've gone through those challenges probably ended up better than you expected, because most of the time they do and use that as your motivator to go through those challenges.”
Greg: “transforming stress from an inhibitor to a motivator. How do you do this?” Gareth: “I'm not a psychologist. We work with psychologists and our platform is the place where you get this training. I think part of it is a it's about awareness of what stress is and where stress comes from and how we are so attuned in our society that we are told so regularly that stress is bad and it can be as simple as, starting to think that actually, if you're understand what stress is: your mind trying to get you ready to perform effectively. That's what stress is. So if you then think about that, it is energy. It is momentum and energy that your mind is creating to point you in a direction to perform. You can point that stress any way you like. And the other thing that is the was one of the key drivers for me, again, I'm not the scientist. So I, I tend to use quite simple frameworks because I'm a simple person. But my biggest problem was I used to feel like all of these things were like blaming the things for happening to me. So I'm stressed because I've got too much work. I'm stressed because these people said something at X point, which did Y which may, there's just so much in it. I'm stressed because of all of these things that are happening. Yet if you compare that to the physical space, we tune our feelings of poor fitness onto ourselves. We don't blame the Mars bar for as eating it. We blame ourselves for eating the Mars bar. Yet in the physical space, we blame the external driver for impacting our stress. Both of those things are our own responses to external stimuli. So when it comes to stress it's, the, these factors are happening. Your body has become aware of them. Your mind is thinking and getting you ready, anxiety kicking in thinking of all the consequences, stress is there to help you like attack them. It takes work. And there are exercises and practices that you can do to just work on channeling that stress. Really simple tasks like don't do lists. Like we're always so focused on our to-do list. Here's the list of all the things, million things I've got to do. And my God, the list is getting longer and longer and longer. Really simple flip on that is just focused on the things you're not going to do, because if you really focus your mind on the things I'm not going to do, you can then start to clear some of that prioritization and workload. And none of these things are complicated. Solution-focused therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy, sports psychology, positive psychology, they're all rooted in generally basic or simple constructs that if we practice those constructs regularly, we have positive outcomes. The problem is we assume it's time to expect quick fixes it's like saying I'm going to go to the gym once and lose three stone. Then we're like, mental fitness is as hard as physical fitness. You have to work on it all the time. So yeah, I think the answer to your question is there reason to quick way to do that. It is a way of framing your mindset over a period of time and continual reinforcement and continual reflection to remind yourself because we're also fighting nature. We have to remember, we're fighting our own evolutionary nature that evolved for a situation that humans are not now in. So that obviously isn't something, a switch you can just flick because you have to tune it.”
“If you take founding a startup, COVID stage 3C melanoma diagnosis halfway just before the pandemic started. So a year into getting a startup off the ground, my cancer diagnosis. I was doing okay before that, but ironically that diagnosis, which has been the most difficult period for me in my entire life. When you Google it and the stats are like 25% chance of seeing your daughter turn 10. Like being alive in 10 years time, pre lots of fantastic new treatments that exist. You can't help, but take an even deeper reflective state on how you manage, and what's important to you because I've had that a bit before, but then that was a real different mindset shift that only happens in that kind of unique situation. Actually what I practice is now as a result of what is the biggest predictor of our long-term mental health status, according to the WHO. According to the world health organization, if you are literate in your mental health, if you have literacy, you are healthier in the longterm, just because you practice healthier habits and you understand how it works. So you know how I live it myself. I make sure I take the time to reflect. I know the tools that work for me for my area. So I know that like meditation, mindfulness has never been a thing that works for me. It's just not, it's not something that I find useful. That's okay. But to manage my anxiety, like gratitude. I'll give you the real simple articulation of that: the fear of that diagnosis. The fear of not seeing my daughter grow up, the fear of not being there for my wife, not being there for my family is the worst fear. I hope - touch wood - I hope that is the worst fear I ever experienced because God forbid anything to my wife or my daughter, et cetera. That is the most negative thing. But if we understand the root cause of fear being a driver of anxiety to protect the things that we have, that we care about. And then having that much fear, not seeing my daughter grow up, not being around for my life, not my family, my friends, et cetera. Those are all amazing things. Those are things that I have that I'm afraid of losing. So again, it's just that mindset shift that you can flip that fear into a positive emotion, by understanding that fear is a manifestation of what we have to lose. So the being afraid of losing it, isn't going to change whether you're going to lose it or not. So possibly focusing and practicing and being grateful on the ability to have those things while you have them is huge. And that, again, sounds so, so easy to do, but it's really hard. I'm a stoic northerner. The first time people talked to me about gratitude practices, like whatever. And the first time we try and do it, it's really hard. It's a practice. Like everything. Once you get into it, it takes time, but it has real benefits if those are the sorts of exercises that work for you as an individual, because everyone's different.”
“That [the stage 3C Melanoma diagnosis] was like a sledgehammer through my entire life. It was like the biggest bomb you could ever drop. That was such a moment. Something that seismic in your life just causes a series of chain reactions that just keep going and going. That just drove me to be really focused on why we're doing what we were doing and practicing what we preach. Cause my whole, our whole thing, is around training for life before it happens. So almost proving a bit of a use case through myself that while you've been doing this for a year and a half, what things have you got in your armory to help you deal with this thing? That really actually, if anything, sharpened my ability, because I had to, with COVID, with the diagnosis, with the business I had to yeah, had to keep going because we have people that work for us. I care about those people greatly, we've got an amazing team, family, et cetera, but it was just a factor of necessity. It was no, there's no like great kind of philosophical moment or anything. It was just like, I'm an action orientated person. So we could sit, I could sit and still, or I could just keep going. And my approaches is keep going and use what tools I've got around me to keep going as best as I can. But yeah, it was, yeah, it's impossible to describe how much of a change that was. But at the same time, I've always, I always feel after these things, like there is always someone worse off than me as well. There are plenty of stories that were a lot worse than mine, and I don't share these stories for sympathy. They're just, I think measures of, life has its ways of getting into all of those positive and negatively throughout all this journey that we're all on. And we can help people prepare for it better so that they can cope with it when it happens.”
“We talk about it as the startup roller coaster, because it's highs and lows and highs and lows, and you've just got to take the highs and bank them while they're there.”
“"The only run you regret is the one you don't do." I'm training for the London marathon and I'm running it for cancer research. If you're maintaining that optimistic mindset, if you have the right mindset, you can't really make a wrong choice. You've got to back yourself to make the most. It's like back to that acceptance and commitment. It's once you've made a decision, you've made the decision and then you have to make the most out of that decision. I definitely don't think it's right to say to someone: "you should definitely leave and set up something and do it all by yourself!" because that is definitely the individual's call to make. I think what we do and what I was definitely really guilty of was letting that desire to want to do something impact what I did every single day as a negative driver, like being unhappy because I want to work for myself. Carrying that sort of negative harboring through your life, isn't healthy for anyone. If anyone did anything: "don't waste time thinking about what decision you're going to make, make a decision commit to that decision, and then say, I'm going to review that decision in a month's time, but then don't let yourself be beaten up by that decision for the next month."
Go after what you want, not away from what you don’t want!
“I am inherently competitive as a person. I'm an only child. So the worst thing is I've only ever competed with myself, which is horrendous because you can't win. And so I've always felt this burning desire that I wanted to do something for myself. But I lacked the confidence, but I then found myself always frustrated. I felt like quite naively, I just needed to be my own boss because I felt like I just, that was what I wanted to do for myself now with some reflection and hindsight, and actually my ability to manage my emotions better, actually the thing that I have always wanted isn't to be my own boss. It's about being in control of the problems. I like having that ultimate accountability and responsibility for the problems, because then I can decide how we treat those problems or pass on those problems. I'm not, so it's actually not about the glory and the success and all of those things.”
“When Nick's best friend Ben died by suicide, that was a real driving force for Nick to start thinking about this space. I'd always been passionate about this space, but I didn't have that trigger at that time because this was a couple of years before. So Nick had been thinking about ideas, approaches things that could happen. And we both then decided to leave and ended up, available. What we actually did first was we set up a design consultancy business. So the two of us set up a design consultancy. We had clients, we had friends, we had contacts and actually in six months, that was going really well. We, we'd got some contracts, we were doing some work, but Nick had this thing on the side that was the real passion. We talked about it a lot. It was something that I was really passionate about doing as well, because it's a meaningful goal. And so as a result, what we decided to do was slowly wind down the consultancy business. I kept working in the consultancy business with some of our clients to enter the end of those contracts whilst putting that money from that into Fika to help us get Fika off the ground, to help us create our investment case, to get our first seed funding. So what we did was create a new business, but very quickly decided that we were just doing the same thing that we'd both always done and that wasn't thing that we wanted to do, even though it was going well and then decided to wind that down, but use the proceeds from it to invest it into bringing Fika up to the same level so that we could kick on and raise seed.”
“When I was deciding what it was that I wanted to do next, there was obviously the driving thing of, I want to do something that we get well renumerated for, because I have a family and I want to provide for the family like everyone does, but then it wasn't taking me of the boxes of the Ikigai around doing something that the world needs, et cetera. And actually to be honest, the problem is it's probably not going to tick the financial one for a long time. And that's going to be difficult for myself, for the family, but do I believe that the long-term investment will catch up.”
“I wanted to feel like I was in control. I wanted to be in control of the surroundings that we were in. As a strategist, it's about controlling the controllables, planning for them. So anything that therefore was outside of my control, I had a real problem. With the left-field things, because I just didn't have that frame of reference of how to manage that anxiety mechanisms. So the real driver was more that I'm never going to be happy unless I'm in control of all the controllables. That isn't true. That was nonsense. If I was back in that role now with what I know now, I wouldn't feel like that because I have a better way of managing those emotions. It was the right outcome, but driven from completely the wrong place. It sounds so arrogant to say it now. I can do it differently. I've got a plan. I want to do it like this. I think every person who starts from business will say they have a drive of how they think they want things to be. It was really manifesting for me as a desire to get away from things that I thought I didn't like. Whereas now, I understand this. There's nothing to do with getting away from things that I thought I didn't like. It was actually about the things that I, how I want to work and how I wanted to work. I thought I had to be in “control” inverted commas to feel like that. That's just not true. I have the benefit of hindsight of learning that now.”
Greg: “You said earlier you stepped out of a business where you were a partner because it was just too much and it was a burnout that you would not have recognized then. How did you take that decision to step out? Can you just share a little more about this because that's stressful as well to just step out and you missed on an earn-out you mentioned earlier.” Gareth: “I left partway through that, which was a big thing. I was the only person that left partway through that. I'm not going to say that was planned. It wasn't, the intention was always to try to stay through the earn-out, see where it went. There were lots of opportunities there. None of this is a reflection on the organization. It was more reflection on me and my management of myself which I now know. And it wasn't a conscious decision of right now is the right time. It was, it's gotta be now. It was a, it just reached a point with workload and things happening and how I felt and what was going on in life. And it was just one day where I just went home and said to my wife "I'm not doing this anymore." And I resigned the next day. There's a series of things that happened. It's easy to say the straw that broke the camel's back. it was just one of those things where there was just a collection of things that happened over a period of time. That got to a point where I just made the decision that I was unhappy. I was unhappy in my own mind, more so than anything else. And whilst I could have carried on being fine in inverted commerce and doing well. I wasn't feeling well. I was just tired and I just didn't want to do it anymore. And so there was no great strategy or plan. I'd always wanted to do something different and do something for myself, but I'd never felt brave enough to take the leap. And then one day it was just time. And I just decided that that was time.”
“I look back on it from a position now with hindsight and think that actually, that was just emotionally immature in terms of the understanding of those drivers and the emotions, the reasons why everything is the way that they are. Yeah, it drove me to a decision, but the decision wasn't driven from a healthy place or the right reasons at the time. And if I was the person that I am now, I probably wouldn't have left to be honest. You can say whether that's a positive thing or a negative thing, I don't know.”
As you prepare for a transition, back yourself! That will give you the peace of mind to see and seize more opportunities!
“I didn't leave knowing what I was going to do. I left because I've always backed myself in any situation that if something comes up, I'll make the best of it. And I left, didn't know what I wanted to do and decided I would see what opportunities came my way. And, Fika presented itself as an opportunity between Nick and I. It ticked a lot of boxes. Something that I'm really passionate about and, the rest is history.”
“So at the time I just got married and obviously my wife and I were talking about starting a family, et cetera, but I knew I wanted to leave. So we actually said, let's not start a family yet, because that was me about unlocking my own motivation that I knew that if we then did decide to start a family, it would make leaving so much harder because the idea of walking away from the income and the salary, all of the safety that comes from that, I probably wouldn't have done it, if that had been something that we were doing at the time. The planning to get there had been something that I was always going to do. It was just a figure of when I did it.”
“We'd sold the company I was in previously. I made some money out of that, but I walked away from the remainder of the earn out, but my discussion with my wife and with my friends was that modest amount of money I could put into savings and ISAs. Or I could invest that money in paying my salary for 18 months. So as an investment in a future where I backed myself to turn that money into something more meaningful and more valuable. So it's a bit of an easy thing to say, but I didn't have the risk associated with necessarily with the financials side of it. Cause I had a bit of a cushion to give me that confidence to, to take that leap, which is always a massive motivator for people. So we shouldn't take that lightly. But it was a very conscious decision that was an investment. So it was that money that had been made from lots of years of effort before was invested in paying ourselves to get this off the ground. That's what I mean by a decision not taken lightly because you can look at years of effort to get some money through business sale to then turn it around and put it straight back into doing something else.”
Other bits of wisdom
Innovation and setting up a startup: “If you look at who really owns ideas and where ideas come from. I co-founded Fika with Nick. Fika is a concept for something that Nick had been thinking about for some time. And we talked about it as friends, and that became something that we decided to found together. Anyone who's worked in innovation and product creation, you can have all the ideas in the world, the ideas, aren't the thing that make it work. Because actually the idea you think is the right answer usually isn't the right answer. Anyway, it's the how, your approach to the learning and the innovation.”
How to have a successful career: “There's some great research from Shawn Achor, which looks at the three things that predict 75% of our career successes. Only 25% predicted by our IQ. Those three things are your ability to use stress as a motivator rather than inhibitor. In those periods of transition, can you channel that stress into a positive motivator, the ability to maintain an optimistic mindset. So use that anxiety, but harness it positively as actually, I'm going to turn this challenge into a positive driver for me. And then the third one is the ability to build a strong support network around you? Who can you call on? Who can you draw on? Who has expertise? What are the positive influences that you can put around you to give yourself that buffer through the transition period? And if you do that naturally, and this is all scientifically evidenced stuff, that is how you can build your self efficacy, your self confidence, your self belief through that transition.”
On the positive impact of purpose, meaning and positivity on one’s self-efficacy: “Meaning can be quite an abstract term. People when you say meaning, think "what's the meaning of life?". That's not what we mean by meaningful. Meaning is really about finding the value in everything that you're trying to do that relates to what your values are, how you want to act, where you want to see yourself, where you want to be. Meaning is linked into positivity because, if you're able to maintain your optimism, your positivity, you find more meaning in the things that you're doing. You're able to maintain that optimistic mindset. Ultimately our evidence base is around building self-efficacy. If you're able to find the meaning in the things that you're doing, it then does help towards those measures of self-efficacy because you're reinforcing to yourself that you're layering on additional bills towards the values, the goals, the things that you want to achieve with your life. It's really just the way of thinking about decisions and actions.”
Pierre:
Pierre: Someone once said to me, it's one of those cliches: you're never going to lie on your deathbed and wish that you'd worked more, you're going to wish you’d spent more time with your family. That always just stuck with me.
Pierre: I think South Africans, we have no net around us you're taught to stand on your own two feet very fast. You can't rely on other people to look after you. It was never really in doubt that I would work for myself. And just the question was what I would do.
Pierre: At this point it reinforced to my family that I'd made the wrong choice. it was like, how could you do this? You've spent so much money on your education. I didn't know what the answer was. I just knew what I didn't want at that point.
Pierre: I enjoyed that idea of building something of value. And that's not financial value. Building something of value that actually does make a difference with people and that can exist without us.
Do what you love, it will be contagious!
Joana: This slightly changed things for me when I realized that actually I must be pretty decent at what I do and to gain that trust.
Joana: In order to get really great success, is not even just about the knowledge. It's not even just about having a university degree. It's about pouring your love and real attention into what you're doing. And if you love something, it will be a success. Because if you just enjoy doing what you do, it will be contagious and people will come to you. And I think actually that kind of happened to us in St. James's. We never had Sunday blues. which used to happen to us all the time previously.
Joana: It's just all about feeling really strongly about your product and then not worrying that much about what it looks like to other people. Because we have enjoyed it, it has become what it is today.
Pierre: But the downside of doing something that you love is that you take the success well, but of course you take the failures really personally. Over the last 13 years of doing this, we've had to try and learn not to do.
Humble beginnings, 18-year MBA
Pierre: I didn't know what I was going to do. I ended up doing just a bad job working in a restaurant with an honors degree in finance and economics.
Joana: It was a sticky period. I remember this very well. It's super vivid for me. For me, the priority was still PT. I only had three months, maybe not even with Finley, full-time at home. And then I came to the gym and people would come with me and Pierre would sit in the hallway and hold Finley. And I would ask people to do squats and lunges and exercises, and then they'd come back and we would breastfeed Finley, go back into the gym, do some more, go back to Pierre. And we would sit in different cafes around Piccadilly circus and basically breastfeed. And Pierre would be the person to take care of Finley and then work on some other things.
Pierre: We had to get good trainers. I remember the first time placing an ad and getting people in and sitting down in a coffee shop in a cafe near Jermyn Street and interviewing these people who wanted to come and work for us. And we were like: you got to realize, we don't even know what we're doing here. We have no clue! Are you sure? It was astounding that people actually wanted to come and work for us!
Pierre: There were six paying members of the gym at the time, on St. James's Square. You look at it and you're like, wow, that's pretty bad. Because it was pretty bad. But we always had a sense of wanting to improve it. We then took quite a slow route to get to that place. I was listening to something previously, this guy had worked in the same place for 18 years. Then he went off and started another business, which became a runaway success. He said, I had an 18-year MBA. it was just a learning process for him. And that's what we did.
Basing big bold and risky decisions on values and gut feel
Pierre: I remember landing in February. February in Cape town is a fairly amazing time of the year. I'd been on the beach in the morning. I got on the plane. I still got off the plane in Heathrow wearing shorts, flip flops, a t-shirt and a little jumper, sand on my feet. And obviously you've got met with London in February. People don't write a lot of poems about London in February. It's a fairly dark time. So that was a bit of a rude awakening I think is probably the best way to put it.
Pierre: I was working as a consultant at the time. And Jo was just about to go on maternity leave, when working self-employed! There was no safety net. It was basically just the two of us. And then I quit my job and said let's do this thing.
Joana: It was all very much unstable at that stage. We both felt that there was something more there to be had. And so we keep going. I think it was not even something we'd discussed: should we do this? Is this right? Is this gonna work? We were maybe a little bit more naive.
Joana: We'd never even discussed plan B. Pierre: To bear in mind, this is 2008, 20th of December. So the world had basically fallen on everyone's heads. If you think about it, it's not maybe the smartest play. Joana: still we didn't question it. Thinking about it now, not questioning, it was really crazy.
Pierre: We both believed that if it didn't work, we could probably end up getting a job, doing what we were previously doing. We had good enough contacts that probably if push came to shove, we could have gone back into it. It felt like we had a bit of a safety net.
Joana: Gut feeling: You can feel it’s right, or it can feel it's wrong. Often we overthink things, we over discuss things and then we just go. But if it feels right now, then I act on it right now. it's what's led us quite a lot.
Pierre: We've never been guaranteed that we would succeed. But we've taken an opportunity and we've zigged and zagged along and we've gone left and right and you get to a place where you have something that's worth value. But if you didn't make that decision in the first place, you didn't have that conversation, you didn't go with it, then you would never really know.
Overcoming your fears when making a transition
Joana: Because I was a bit older when I became a Personal Trainer, I was very nervous. Most PTs are very young, 19, 20, 22, very fit, slim. It's fast. I was not bad. And while I was fit I was also very nervous. I came from a highly paid job to nothing, and I thought, gosh, who's going to want to train with an old personal trainer?
Joana: When we did get pregnant everything was thrown back into the deep end of things. I started to immediately alarm bells going off. What now? And what are we going to do financially?And then we were both out of work, with three days before the birth of our first child, which was far from ideal. And at that point, we were forced to think laterally and Pierre came up with this idea that we'll get somebody on board that will take over my clients. I was a little bit reluctant. And then I realized I actually had to go with this because otherwise [all my work gaining clients] will amount to nothing.
Pierre: A lot of the time we are our own handbrake, that doubt comes into you and it's oh, I can't do this. Oh, it's going to be really hard and there's going to be discomfort and things like that. And there is absolutely going to be discomfort. And it happens all the time. The downside of all this stuff is that it's uncomfortable. But being uncomfortable shouldn't be the reason not to do it. For me, that was a bit of a light bulb moment where instead of doubting myself, it became more about actually I can do this.
Magical things happen when you accept the power of serendipity and stay open to opportunities
Joana: And so I reeducated myself to become a personal trainer. And that's how I started. That is slowly how, I guess the seed was born for Nordic balance.
Joana: [The gym I was using] closed down and one of my clients just said, oh, I know this really bad Gym in St James’ Square, it looks really rubbish and there's like mice on the floor. I don't know if you want to go there, but you can train me there. I said, okay, let's go and check it out. And we checked it out and yes, it was awful. It was the really thick TVs on the screen. The carpet on the floor was broken and frayed and it looked really pretty scabby. We started to train there and slowly, some of my other clients came along as they must have loved me. There was one client who said, no, I will never come back here. So some people didn't love me enough. Obviously some people did.
Joana: the very scabby Gym we were producing these PT sessions in decided to throw the gym out to tender. His eyes then lit up and he was like, yeah, let's do this! And I was maybe a little less but I realized at the time that was the right thing and yeah, we decided to go for it and we got it!
Pierre: We started looking at it and saying, actually, we've got an opportunity here to do something. Serendipity kicked in: a series of things started to happen around us, which we were very open to. It allowed us to get a gym on St. James’ Square and allowed us to get a corporate arrangement with a local business, which was effectively how our humbled things started.
Joana: The best things that have happened to me have been the unexpected. I didn't expect to be in London. And I've been here for 23 years. I didn't expect to meet my future husband in a restaurant where I worked and here we are. I didn't think I wanted a house and I have two. I definitely was very unsure that children were something I wanted to have in my life and I have two. And the last thing now we got a dog that I never thought I wanted and I love him.
Pierre: [One of the biggest drivers has been to] be open to opportunities. The difference between a lucky and unlucky person is often just the ability to keep your head up and look around. If someone wants to have a conversation with you, sit and talk to them, engage in what they're doing, listen to what they have to say. They might not be a driver in your life at all, or they may be, you never really know. But if you don't talk to them, there'll never be anything. A lot of the stuff that we've got in our lives has really come off the back of that. Being open to experiences.
Building as a couple - she loves graphs, he’s got ambition!
Pierre: The thing about this was that Jo really never wanted to do this.
Joana: Whatever will happen, we'll be okay. We will be okay because we've got each other and we can do this. And if it doesn't, if it's not okay, then there will be something else. It was strange, but we never actually considered quitting.
Pierre: We are a husband and wife team, and I think there's so many bits that are weird for lots of people, but there's so many bits of it that actually make a lot of sense. When you get to know us, we are massively different. What I don't do well, Joe does well. And what Joe doesn't do well, I do well. So I think between us, we're reasonably complete. And we maybe knew that on a subconscious level, quite early on that actually we could figure it out.
Pierre: You can't just have a me and you can't just have a Jo, because weirdly between us, we would never do anything in the way that we do it now. She tempers my ambition a lot and makes things a lot more realistic. I push her on to do things that she wouldn't have done previously. And I think we find that sort of middle ground.
Joana: We've grown in confidence together, slightly different stages of it. At times we've pushed each other into something that the other one was maybe hesitating a little bit and other times, I've slowed things down when things were going too fast. Pierre: What I also realized is that Jo likes a graph. As soon as I would pull together stuff about different bits of our business and show it in a graph form, all of a sudden she'd be like: oh wow!
Pierre: We have a good culture in our business. because it's us, we're a husband and wife team, because we're personal. We treat it like a family business. You're going love it or you're going to hate it. Some people come into it. They're like, oh my God, I can't work for a husband and wife. It's just ridiculous. But other people come in and they feel like they've found their home. And that's what we want. We want people to feel like they've found something where they're a part of it and they're engaged and they feel like they're not just a number. They're not just a cash cow effectively to make the bosses rich so that they can go off on extravagant holidays and things like that. It's not like that at all.
To scale or not to scale?
Pierre: After doing it for years and years, it just felt like we needed to be a little bit more ambitious about what we wanted to do. Joana: You need it to be more ambitious! Pierre: We started to gain a lot of belief in how we did things. That helped things to take a nice big step forward.
Joana: That's where I really struggled, actually. I struggled to recognize the fact that we have a company and it's actually really great. I tried to play it down. Often people say, what do you do? Oh I've got a little Gym in St James’ Square. I don't even call it a Gym, I call it a studio. And I always wait, it can't be, we are not like this big company, how did this happen?
Joana: I wanted to slow everything down because I had so much self doubt. In the end, I went: fine! Let's get another place. And we went out and it was very much a gut feeling. We were driving around. Maybe here, maybe there. It was like there, and we both went. Yeah, there! Let's go. There. Let's do this. And a year later we have a clinic there.
