Upsample with Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff – Details, episodes & analysis

We’re live! To celebrate, we get into the topic that brought us together for the idea of this podcast in the first place: Liz Pelly’s book Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist.

(0:00) We have a name

(1:50) Liz Pelly's Mood Machine

(1:09:57) Recommendations

Recs: Carson - artist Queralt Lahoz, Will - Land & Lore YouTube channel videos on the Vancouver Stock Exchange

FIND US:

Will

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@williamchernoff/

-Rhythm Changes: https://www.rhythmchanges.ca/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamchernoff/

Carson

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ctworow/

-Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ctworow.bsky.social/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ctworow/

Hosted by Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff. Edited and mixed by Will Chernoff. A Chernoff Music podcast. Theme music by Carson Tworow.

We empty our thoughts about streaming and the labour economy of music today, in anticipation of the next episode on which we'll launch this podcast. Is it even worth it for a small indie artist to distribute on streaming? We cover the question of per-stream payouts, the UMAW and the push for a Penny Per Stream, whether or not DIY artists would make more money today or in 2001, and more.

Correction: at 24:41 we share an anecdote about streaming Kenny Wheeler's music around the time of his passing. Wheeler died on September 18, 2014, and Spotify launched in Canada on September 30, 2014. That means our anecdote is probably off-base, but we still think the scenario is relevant to the episode.

(0:00) Will's grievances about "promotional partnerships"

(11:29) The streaming discourse

(1:01:58) The Living Wage for Musicians Act of 2024

(1:29:47) Recommendations

Recs: Carson - album Slump by Improvement Movement, Will - book Bedroom Rapper by Rollie Pemberton aka: Cadence Weapon

FIND US:

Will

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@williamchernoff/

-Rhythm Changes: https://www.rhythmchanges.ca/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamchernoff/

Carson

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ctworow/

-Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ctworow.bsky.social/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ctworow/

Hosted by Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff. Edited and mixed by Will Chernoff. A Chernoff Music podcast. Theme music by Carson Tworow.

How the heck did we end up on our musical and non-musical career paths? Is there a rise and fall of careerism in music? We uncover stories from our random walks through school and work so far.

(0:00) Intro

(3:39) Our early years

(15:39) University

(27:31) Covid

(39:27) The big breaks that led to our current careers

(59:21) Discussion of career messaging that we get

(1:16:59) The first-ever recommendations!

Recs: Carson - Kyle Chayka One Thing newsletter, Will: the 2025 Formula One season

FIND US:

Will

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@williamchernoff/

-Rhythm Changes: https://www.rhythmchanges.ca/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamchernoff/

Carson

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ctworow/

-Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ctworow.bsky.social/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ctworow/

Hosted by Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff. Edited and mixed by Will Chernoff. A Chernoff Music podcast. Theme music by Carson Tworow.

We revisit each of our main previous think-pieces: Carson's “Big Things Coming” at Rhythm Changes published in 2024 and Will’s episode of The Strong Towns Podcast recorded in April 2022, alongside his writing about Strong Towns themes at Rhythm Changes.

(0:00) Intro

(4:36) Big Things Coming

(39:26) Strong Towns, the writing, & the podcast

(51:05) Themes for music scenes from Strong Towns

See also the episode “Strip Mall” on The Strong Towns Podcast (June 2020).

FIND US:

Will

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@williamchernoff/

-Rhythm Changes: https://www.rhythmchanges.ca/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamchernoff/

Carson

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ctworow/

-Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ctworow.bsky.social/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ctworow/

Hosted by Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff. Edited and mixed by Will Chernoff. A Chernoff Music podcast. Theme music by Carson Tworow.

In the first-ever episode of the show, we discuss Brandon Shaw’s iPod series of videos from his YouTube channel called Digging The Greats. Find it starting here at part 1 of 4.

FIND US:

Will

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@williamchernoff/

-Rhythm Changes: https://www.rhythmchanges.ca/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamchernoff/

Carson

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ctworow/

-Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ctworow.bsky.social/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ctworow/

Hosted by Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff. Edited and mixed by Will Chernoff. A Chernoff Music podcast. Theme music by Carson Tworow.

We discuss a controversial, but relatively tame and annoying online jazz battle: Patrick Bartley’s #BoycottAI vs. JazzMemes' Chase Maddox with the blog post "There's no 'AI' in Art" on AI-generated images. Was 'slop' invented in November 2022, does the fate of art itself hang in the balance, and what else can we do?

(0:00) Reacting to our show being out in the world

(1:36) Bon Iver

(5:55) AI finally lands in the jazz world

(10:48) Patrick Bartley & JazzMemes

(32:24) Our views on the AI issues

(53:54) Recommendations and a big anniversary for Carson

Recs: Carson - album Uhlmann Johnson Wilkes, Will - Venus Theory YouTube video "The Future of Music is Noise"

FIND US:

Will

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@williamchernoff/

-Rhythm Changes: https://www.rhythmchanges.ca/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamchernoff/

Carson

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ctworow/

-Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ctworow.bsky.social/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ctworow/

Hosted by Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff. Edited and mixed by Will Chernoff. A Chernoff Music podcast. Theme music by Carson Tworow.

We have closure on The Velvet Sundown! Then we get into the very creative ticket pricing, or lack thereof, at Bumbershoot in Seattle and the Guelph Jazz Festival in Ontario (11:43), and a Vancouver city council motion that put several of our favourite ideas on the table, but didn't pass (27:42).

Recs: Carson - Tyler Childers album Snipe Hunter, Will - Brighde Chaimbeul album Sunwise

FIND US:

Will

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@williamchernoff/

-Rhythm Changes: https://www.rhythmchanges.ca/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamchernoff/

Carson

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ctworow/

-Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ctworow.bsky.social/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ctworow/

Hosted by Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff. Edited and mixed by Will Chernoff. A Chernoff Music podcast. Theme music by Carson Tworow.

After clearing the WeTransfer air, we get into subvert.fm, a collectively owned music commerce platform in development. The Subvert team calls the platform a direct alternative to Bandcamp. We discuss the concept of Subvert and who founded it (11:17), Bandcamp controversies: being sold twice and union drama (15:08), Carson vs. Will on enshittification (29:46), Subvert's structure and current status (38:04), and how we feel about it + are we signing up as artists? (49:46)

Recs: Will - podcast episode All One Song :: Jeff Parker on “The Needle and the Damage Done” by Aquarium Drunkard, Carson - album Swag by Justin Bieber

FIND US:

Will

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@williamchernoff/

-Rhythm Changes: https://www.rhythmchanges.ca/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamchernoff/

Carson

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ctworow/

-Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ctworow.bsky.social/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ctworow/

Hosted by Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff. Edited and mixed by Will Chernoff. A Chernoff Music podcast. Theme music by Carson Tworow.

The story around Daniel Ek's military tech investments has reached a fever pitch, and nothing about it is likely to improve. Is now finally the time to quit using Spotify? We dive into Deerhoof's announcement about pulling their music from Spotify (4:03), our feelings about what to do as an artist (18:30), and what to do as a user (36:57).

Recs: Will - Without A Stage: LA's Independent Jazz Scene directed by Michael DiPietro by The Terrarium on YouTube , Carson - Andor season 2

FIND US:

Will

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@williamchernoff/

-Rhythm Changes: https://www.rhythmchanges.ca/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamchernoff/

Carson

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ctworow/

-Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ctworow.bsky.social/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ctworow/

Hosted by Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff. Edited and mixed by Will Chernoff. A Chernoff Music podcast. Theme music by Carson Tworow.

We're back from going to festivals! We kick it off in urban affairs with "The Uncertain Future of Granville Island" by Uytae Lee on the YouTube channel About Here (2:23), then swing into AI as Carson shares the Timbaland music training/generating controversy (24:31) and Will gets into The Velvet Sundown, an accelerationist mix of AI-generated everything + bot playlist marketing (47:09).

Timbaland links:

• “Timbaland’s AI music project is a ghost in a misguided machine” by Sheldon Pearce for NPR
• Zarah Scully claims Timbaland trained Suno using her voice
• YouTube video: Curtiss King interviews Zarah Scully

Velvet Sundown links:

• "The Velvet Sundown are a seemingly AI-generated band with 325k Spotify listeners" by Stuart Dredge for Music Ally
• Benn Jordan’s IG post claiming Velvet Sundown are 100% AI gen. Rick Beato agrees
• They are supposedly tweeting

Recs: Carson - album Tether by Annahstasia, Will - album Gadabout Season by Brandee Younger

FIND US:

Will

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@williamchernoff/

-Rhythm Changes: https://www.rhythmchanges.ca/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamchernoff/

Carson

-YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ctworow/

-Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ctworow.bsky.social/

-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ctworow/

Hosted by Carson Tworow & Will Chernoff. Edited and mixed by Will Chernoff. A Chernoff Music podcast. Theme music by Carson Tworow.