Toot or Boot – Details, episodes & analysis

Join host Stacey Nordwall and special guests Julie Turney and Stephanie Lemek for a deep dive into HR burnout - an issue that has become critical for the field.

Drawing insights from Emily and Amelia Nagoski's book "Burnout," the conversation goes beyond the oversimplified notion that burnout is just feeling tired or can be fixed with a long weekend. Instead, they explore how burnout represents a biological stress cycle that needs proper completion, discussing concepts like "Human Giver Syndrome" and the unique challenges faced by HR professionals who are often expected to maintain endless empathy while managing their own stress.

The episode critically examines why HR practitioners are particularly vulnerable to burnout, exploring factors like the isolation of the role, the expectation of constant emotional labor, and the tension between doing what's right and what's organizationally possible. They also challenge conventional burnout prevention advice, critiquing surface-level solutions like "take advantage of company benefits" or "have meeting blackout days" in favor of more systemic approaches.

Whether you're an HR professional feeling overwhelmed by increasing demands and limited resources, or a leader looking to better support your HR team, this episode offers both validation and practical strategies for addressing burnout in the human resources field. The discussion particularly resonates in a post-pandemic context, where HR roles have faced greater demands while often being first in line for resource cuts.

Connect with Stephanie:

On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanielemek/

At her website: https://www.thewoundedworkforce.com/

Connect with Julie:

On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamjulieturney/

At her website: https://www.hratheart.com/

Connect with Stacey:

On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/

Articles and book:

Beyond burnout: Why changing how we talk about employee well-being could help solve it
Half of HR report burnout, wanting renewed job focus
Why HR leaders are struggling to retain their own team members.
8 Surprising HR Burnout Statistics in 2025.
Burnout

Coming up on today's episode: We're diving into the latest RTO trends for 2025! We'll explore how major companies are taking wildly different approaches - from WPP's new four-day office mandate to firms like Spotify doubling down on flexibility. Plus, we'll discuss some fascinating findings about workers choosing flexibility over higher salaries, and tackle the tricky question of whether remote work might be holding back career progression. Stick around for a candid conversation about what all this means for HR practitioners navigating the future of work.

Connect with Jared
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredkleinert/


Connect with Stacey
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/


Articles
How return-to-office mandates could change in 2025, according to top HR leaders from PwC, EY, and Canva
Why Americans Are Accepting Lower Salaries
Global ad giant WPP issues sweeping RTO mandate for its 114,000 staff, calling them back to office 4 days a week

Lindsey Caplan joins us again to discuss the stats showing that fewer than one in three employees trust their senior leaders. Next we talk about the employees fired by Meta for misusing their meal credits and what it means about org culture, trust, and how we write and implement our policies. Then, we dig into the stats that a record-low percentage of employees feel genuinely cared for by their employers, and talk about why wellness programs without real action backfire.

Connect with Lindsey on LinkedIn or at The Gathering Effect. 

On this week's episode, we're doing something a little different. I invited Morgan Williams, Tracie Sponenberg, and Sarika Lamont to go in-depth on one topic - SHRM.

SHRM has been the talk of HR news a lot over the past year - they dropped the E from DEI, are facing a lawsuit from a former employee who is alleging discrimination and retaliation, and most recently the CEO was added to a shortlist to serve as Secretary of Labor.

So we dive deep on SHRM - who they are, how they've changed, who they serve, and why it all matters.

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Connect with Sarika Lamont on LinkedIn

Connect with Tracie Sponenberg on LinkedIn or visit her website to sign up for her newsletter. Click on "resources" on her website for the SHRM-alternative list!

Connect with Morgan Williams on LinkedIn and check out PeakHR for learning programs designed by HR practitioners for HR practitioners.

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Articles

• The Problem With SHRM: Why HR Professionals Feel Disappointed, Disillusioned, and Deserted
• SHRM faces discrimination lawsuit from former employee and criticism from some HR professionals
• SHRM announces removal of E from DEI
• SHRM Stands Ready to Partner with Biden Administration to Support Work, Workers and Workplaces
• Jury may decide whether SHRM conducted sham bias investigation
• SHRM letter to President-elect Trump
• ‘It would be an honor’: SHRM’s Johnny C. Taylor reportedly on Trump’s short list for labor secretary

In this episode, we talk about a new HR buzz word “polyworking” – juggling multiple jobs to make ends meet. But is it just hustle and grind culture 2.0? Then, we explore recent moves by the CFPB to extend consumer protection into employment data and cautioning businesses about surveiling employees. Finally, we revisit the debate on whether HR is truly “miserable” and talk more about how HR experiences tensions that aren't felt by other roles and departments.

Connect with Lindsey at https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindseycaplan/ or https://www.gatheringeffect.com/

Is the supercommute making a comeback? In this week’s episode, Cassidy Edwards joins as we dive into the story of a man who *loves* his 7-hour daily trek. We also unpack the chaos caused by Dell's sudden return-to-office (RTO) mandate, and explore why HR needs to rethink how they roll out major changes, because lives don’t flip with the stroke of an RTO mandate. Last, we chat about how Workday's disastrous decision to send police to a hospitalized Black employee's home for a wellness check made headlines. 

Connect with Cassidy or subscribe to Yo! You're on Mute on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cassidy-edwards-yyom/

Find the articles we discussed here:
Black Worker Sues US Company After They Sent Police To His Home For A 'Wellness Check' During His Medical Leave
I supercommute over 7 hours for work. I won't move out of NYC, and the journey is productive and relaxing
Dell staffers scramble to find childcare after 5-days-a-week office mandate gives just a few days’ notice: report

This week Kim Rohrer and Cassandra Babilya are back to discuss parental leave and policies and practices that support parents. We start off by discussing a lawsuit where a former employee of a law firm alleges that the company’s leave policy violates civil rights law because it offers an additional eight weeks of paid disability leave only to birth mothers.

Find the article we discussed here
Law firm Jones Day must face bias lawsuit over parental leave policy


Follow Kim Rohrer

• icaretoomuch.substack.com
• patchworkportfolio.com
• peakhrlearning.com

Follow Cassandra Babilya

• cassandrababilya.com
• You Got This journal https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CPMJ5K5R
• Make Work Suck Less newsletter https://pages.cassandrababilya.com/posts

Are we on the verge of losing key HR leaders due to burnout and lack of strategic support? Tara Turk-Haynes, founder of Equity Activations, joins us to discuss the possible HR leadership exodus along with the EEOC’s 25-year high in disability discrimination charges and how flat hierarchies may be keeping women from applying. Plus, we explore what it all means for DEI programs as middle management roles vanish. Don’t miss it!

And -> If you'd like to participate in Tara's survey about the experience of middle managers, please do so here: https://lnkd.in/gGjT8Zwm

You can also connect with Tara on LinkedIn

The articles we discuss can be found here:
A leadership exodus looms as HR leaders consider leaving their jobs
EEOC Sues Three Employers for Disability Discrimination
Research: Flat Hierarchies Can Discourage Women Applicants

This week on Toot or Boot, Tara Turk-Haynes, founder of Equity Activations, joins us to break down Amazon's RTO mandate and the myth of in-office culture-building. Then we dive into the latest tech layoffs—is it the economy, real estate, or the upcoming election driving them? And we ask: Does simply being in the same office foster real collaboration and culture? Get ready for a wild ride!

Connect with Tara on LinkedIn

Here are the articles we discussed:

• Amazon calls workers back 5 days a week—other companies may be ‘right behind them,’ expert says
• Cisco's huge layoff round slams Bay Area offices, more than 800 workers cut
• Intel is laying off over 15,000 employees and will stop ‘non-essential work’
• PwC fires 1,800 employees. What’s driving Big 4’s major U.S. layoffs?
• Working in the office 5 days a week to build company culture is a myth, PwC report says

We dive into the "meeting industrial complex" and whether our work culture has really adapted to remote and hybrid models. Join Noah Warder, VP of People and Culture at Accent Inns, and me as we discuss how to reclaim focus time, explore Gen Z’s impact on sick days and discuss whether HR has swung too far in favor of employees.

Connect with Noah on LinkedIn.

Articles

• Gen Z is redefining sick days
• I've worked in HR for 36 years. Here are the 3 biggest changes I've seen in the workplace — and why I think the dial has swung too far in employees' favor.
• White-Collar Work Is Just Meetings Now