The Panel – Details, episodes & analysis

When it comes to bootstrapping and building software, there's rarely one correct answer.

The secret to building better products, profitable companies, and a better life is knowing how to find the best answer for you. That’s the purpose of The Panel podcast.

Join hosts Justin (Transistor.fm) and Brian Casel (Instrumental Products) in each episode as they bring together a panel of founders, software developers, and friends to discuss hot topics like:

- What's really working in SaaS marketing
- The impact of AI on product development
- Open source vs closed source business models
- Niche markets vs broad markets
- One-time vs recurring revenue models
- Age and experience perspectives in tech

Timestamps:
0:00 The story - why we wanted to start this show
2:03 Meet your hosts - Justin Jackson & Brian Casel
2:45 Topics we'll cover 
3:32 The power of different perspectives
4:18 We need your help
5:05 We'll be doing video and audio

🔗 Join our waiting list at https://panelpodcast.com

Creators & Guests

• Justin Jackson - Host
• Brian Casel - Host
• Chris Enns - Editor

Is bootstrapping a SaaS dead in 2025? How will AI affect software development as an industry? What's working when it comes to marketing?

Justin Jackson (Transistor.fm) and Brian Casel (Instrumental Products) are joined by Colleen Schnettler (SaaS Marketing Gym) and Tyler King (Less Annoying CRM) to debate our predictions for the new year.

CHAPTERS:
0:00 - What to expect
3:25 - Is SaaS Getting Harder in 2025?
5:16 - Bootstrapped SaaS is past its prime
8:32 - "Can you really build a good product with AI?"
12:00 - "No-Code is in trouble, AI makes product discovery harder, SaaS goldrush is over."
14:17 - What kind of business should you start in 2025?
16:34 - AI can't replace the craft and expertise required to launch a good product
19:06 - Is it harder to go from Zero to One?
20:23 - Marketing predictions - what's going to work this year?
27:58 - "Nothing works. Marketing is bullshit." – Tyler King
30:43 - People want to interact with real humans (Reddit, podcasts, YouTube)
32:14 - Organic search is still big (but AI is sending some traffic)
34:20 - How you can win against AI and other competitors: customer support
36:33 - A bootstrapper's advantage is that they're small and they care
39:27 - Question for the listener: have you had a good customer support experience with AI chatbots?
40:27 - Another tactic that might work: get people on the phone!
42:07 - Should we all short Tesla stock?
45:19 - Our plans for 2025

Tell us what you think! 🗣️

• 🎤 Send us an audio or video message
• 📧 Email us: panelpodcastshow@gmail.com
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• 🦋 Reply on Bluesky

Find us on Bluesky:

• Colleen Schnettler – @leenyburger.bsky.social
• Tyler King – @tylerking.app
• Justin Jackson – @justinjackson.ca
• Brian Castle – @briancasel.com

Links mentioned in the episode:

• 🧰 Instrumental Products
• 🏋️‍♀️ SaaS Marketing Gym
• 📂 Simple File Upload
• 📇 Less Annoying CRM
• 🎙️ Startup to Last Podcast
• 🎤 Transistor podcast hosting

Subscribe to The Panel for weekly discussions with smart founders about building better products and better lives:

Is web development still a good career choice in 2025? What's the future of open source? Justin and Brian dive deep with Taylor Otwell (Laravel) and Caleb Porzio (Livewire, Alpine.js, Flux) about the state of web dev, building a business on open source, and the anxiety of managing competition.

Chapters:

• (03:31) - Should people still pursue web development as a career?
• (11:04) - Are we still excited about the web? Why is Laravel growing?
• (16:27) - How big are your customers?
• (25:23) - How interested are developers on the business side of Saas?
• (34:39) - How did you think about open source when you were getting started?
• (41:19) - How do you think about being a creator when you have a large business?
• (55:57) - The next generation pipeline
• (01:00:47) - Rethinking open source
• (01:10:52) - What's your anxiety level towards competition?

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Links mentioned in this episode

• 🚀 Laravel
• 🧑‍💻 Laravel is hiring
• 🐙 Livewire
• 🎸 Alpine.js
• ✨ Flux
• 🏗️ Instrumental Rails Components
• 🎙️ Transistor podcast hosting

Jordan Gal is breaking the mold with his new startup Rosie. He's targeting non-technical small business owners using consumer-style marketing rather than the B2B approaches most SaaS use. He talks about the opportunities and risks with AI-based startups, and how he's waiting for the "dam to break."

Timestamps:

• (00:00) - Intro
• (03:42) - Using what I want to listen to to guide what I create
• (12:10) - The advantage of finding your audience
• (16:26) - What kinds of experiments have you run lately?
• (23:28) - What is the marketing strategy for Rosie?
• (33:10) - Struggling with content creation
• (47:28) - It can be dangerous when your audience is also your customers
• (54:02) - Content is not the end goal
• (01:05:19) - Building a business on tradespeople

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Rosie - AI Call Answering Service
• Jordan Gal - Portland, Oregon, rallyon.com | about.me
• Post Purchase Offers
• Brian Casel
• Bootstrapped Web
• Wireframing Tools
• Instrumental Products - Brian's company
• Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
• Transistor.fm - Justin's company

Adam Wathan sat down with Justin and Brian to talk about the challenge of staying motivated with your own business, even when you've "made it."

However successful you think a well-known product or founder might be, the truth is everyone's dealing with stresses and challenges and things that don't work and figuring out what to do next. That's what this episode is about.

The discussion also touches on the potential of video content and YouTube as a way of getting in motion and regaining motivation.

Timestamps:

• (00:06) - Intro
• (02:52) - Evaluating past efforts and losing confidence
• (27:27) - Do we try and get more of the same thing, or build to a new thing?
• (29:58) - Getting excited about building out a new space
• (37:51) - Publishing when you're inspired
• (59:11) - Are we too old?
• (01:03:23) - Finding inspiration in new locations

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Tailwind CSS - Adam's company
• Tailwind's YouTube channel
• Instrumental Products - Brian's company
• Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
• Transistor.fm - Justin's company

Brian Casel hosts a candid conversation with Val Sopi and Christian Genco about the realities of launching new SaaS products in 2025. All three founders are at pivotal moments in their entrepreneurial journeys, wrestling with what products to build next, how to balance consulting work with product development, and finding the elusive "founder-product fit" that makes building a business sustainable and enjoyable. They share their strategies for validating ideas, dealing with competition, and defining what success truly means beyond just revenue targets.

The discussion delves into the unique challenges of the current SaaS landscape, from the impact of AI on product development to the importance of building products that genuinely excite you as a founder. Whether you're considering your next product launch or questioning your current direction, this episode offers valuable perspectives from bootstrappers who've been through multiple product cycles and are navigating their next moves.

Timestamps:

• (00:00) - Welcome
• (01:35) - Guest introduction
• (03:31) - Why are we considering a new Saas business in 2025?
• (12:07) - Have we thought about doing something else besides Saas?
• (22:09) - How do you convince yourself that your new idea is going to work?
• (28:15) - How do we view competition in Saas?
• (32:43) - Thinking about founder fit as much as market fit
• (37:43) - What is Christian thinking about for his own product?
• (44:07) - How to think about competition in 2025
• (52:29) - How do we stay excited about our products or projects?
• (59:09) - What does success look like for you this year?

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Instrumental Products - Brian's company
• Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
• BlogMaker.app - Val's current SaaS
• FileInbox.com - Christian's SaaS
• Cursor - AI coding tool discussed in the episode
• Rails Components Library – Brian's new project
• Paddle - Payment processor Val mentioned for his new product
• Justin's MicroConf talk on founder-market fit 
• Brett Victor - Human Computing

Marie Poulin and Aaron Francis join us to discuss the realities of building creator-driven businesses. We talked a lot about YouTube (they describe how each got traction there) and their current video making process. They also challenged conventional wisdom about sticking to one niche. For them, pivoting between projects keeps them fresh and prevents burnout, even when the traditional wisdom is to "just focus."

Chapters:

• (00:06) - Introduction
• (03:23) - What is happening in Marie Poulin's world?
• (07:32) - What is Aaron Francis up to at Try Hard Studios?
• (08:48) - Why is open source software important to be involved in?
• (11:20) - What is the marketing flow for Marie and Notion Mastery?
• (14:34) - The power of YouTube to find new people
• (16:52) - Personality as a brand vs a studio brand name
• (25:03) - The tensions of being a creator
• (33:49) - What is your month to month routine for your business?
• (39:16) - When does creative work feel like a grind?
• (01:00:47) - What negative attention have you recieved creating content?

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Links mentioned in this episode

• 💼 Notion Mastery
• 💪 Try Hard Studios
• Marie's YouTube channel
• Aaron's YouTube channel
• Screencasting.com - Aaron's upcoming project
• ChatGPT lists Marie as #1 Notion influencer
• 🧰 Instrumental Products
• 🎤 Transistor podcast hosting

Peldi is the founder of Balsamiq and pioneered transparent business building in 2007. In this episode, he came to the Panel looking advice on "build in public." We invited Jay Clouse, of Creator Science, on to share his wisdom. Jay had tons of practical suggestions for SaaS founders looking to build community and build in public in an authentic way.

Chapters:

• (00:08) - Introduction of The Panel
• (04:24) - Why is Peldi interested in build in public in 2025?
• (09:32) - Build in public has become brag in public
• (20:44) - Can Peldi give back in some way?
• (28:25) - Could you teach people how to build in public again?
• (35:13) - How much work is it to maintain community?
• (40:46) - Sharing your struggles in public
• (47:57) - Why does Peldi still share revenue numbers?
• (51:46) - Could Balsamiq sponsor a community?
• (56:34) - What do current founders need to know?

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Instrumental Products
• Creator Science
• Balsamiq Mockups
• Transistor podcast hosting

Brian is wondering: how do you manage a popular open source project? Justin went to Toronto and introduced his son to Adam Wathan, Wes Bos, Steve Schoger, and Caleb Porzio. Why does the same amount of effort produce wildly different results? And... is everyone getting tired of all this copycat content that's optimized for algorithms? 

Timestamps:

• (00:20) - Preview of what we're going to talk about
• (02:11) - Builder Methods Pro and AgentOS
• (03:58) - The importance of human content in an age of algorithmic feeds
• (25:55) - Connecting with people in real life
• (33:52) - Zeroing in on Builder Methods revenue
• (48:25) - Managing an open source project in public
• (59:22) - The importance of enthusiasm in projects
• (01:12:21) - Effort and outcome

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Sam Sulek YouTube Channel
• Builder Methods Workshop
• Justin’s Toronto Hangout
• Marketing is a Transfer of Enthusiasm
• Agent OS GitHub Project
• Open Source Contribution Guidelines (Litestream)
• 37signals Book Royalties Revenue
• Effort vs Outcome Blog Post
• 1,000 True Fans
• Omarchy 2.0
• Wes Bos
• Downie - YouTube Video Downloader for macOS

Justin's been using Stripe Sigma to learn a lot more about the history of revenue at Transistor. He had a phone call with Jason Cohen about how to get what you want out of your business. And Brian talks through the same frameworks to figure out what might work best for Builder Methods including exploration of courses, cohorts, community, and more.

Timestamps:

• (00:06) - We're back!
• (00:59) - Brian's healthcare journey
• (09:36) - Deep dive into Stripe Sigma and Transistor's history
• (37:38) - Asking yourself the hard questions about your business
• (42:12) - The value of taking a win now
• (57:29) - What does Brian want with BuilderMethods
• (01:14:35) - Rob Snyder's Pull framework
• (01:30:48) - Can you do community well without the time commitment?
• (01:35:17) - Cohort vs courses
• (01:57:23) - How long is a long podcast episode?

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Jason Cohen: About the author
• Mostly Technical
• ChartMogul | CRM & Subscription Analytics built for B2B SaaS growth
• Message from Paddle
• Kit: Email-First Operating System for Creators (formerly ConvertKit)
• Build Your SaaS | The “charge more” debate
• Average Podcast Downloads: Podcast Measurement and Growth
• Finding Fulfillment
• Agent OS | A free open-source system to train smart AI coding agents
• The PULL framework - by Rob Snyder
• Jay Clouse - Creator Science
• Learn Laravel | Laracasts
• Wes Bos
• Learn Ruby on Rails | GoRails