The Negotiation – Details, episodes & analysis

In this episode of The Negotiation, Darren Touch, founder and CEO of the Canada China Forum, discusses his interest in international relations with China and his experience as a Schwarzman Scholar at Tsinghua University. He shares his insights on the current state of Canada-China relations and the necessary steps to strengthen the relationship. Touch emphasizes the importance of people-to-people exchanges, educational programs, and language proficiency in building a new generation of leaders well-versed in China affairs. He also highlights the challenges of binary thinking and the opportunities for Canadians to gain hands-on experience in China and other parts of the world. Enjoy!

Key Points:

• Developing a nuanced understanding of China is crucial for building a balanced and informed approach to Canada's strategy towards China.
• People-to-people exchanges and educational programs are key to strengthening the Canada-China relationship.
• Language proficiency and hands-on experience in China are valuable competencies for future leaders in international policy and diplomacy.
• Challenges include binary thinking and the need to overcome biases and stereotypes about China.
• Opportunities lie in expanding educational programs and encouraging Canadians to gain international experience.
• Leaving one's comfort zone and experiencing different cultures and perspectives is essential for personal and professional growth.

In this episode of The Negotiation podcast, we take a look back at the Paris 2024 Olympics with Mark Dreyer, the preeminent analyst of China's sports scene. Mark, a seasoned China sports reporter, delves deep into China’s performance at the 2024 Games and the cultural phenomena surrounding Chinese athletes.

The discussion kicks off with a review of China's overall performance at the Paris 2024 Olympics, looking at how China fared in the medal tally and significant victories and storylines.

One topic explored in depth is Zheng Qinwen’s gold medal victory in women’s tennis. Mark also addresses the controversies that clouded China's swimming successes, including Pan Zhanle’s world record in the 100-metre freestyle.

The conversation shifts to the societal impact of sports, examining the treatment of athletes as celebrities in China and the governmental steps taken to manage public obsession with star athletes.

Moreover, Mark touches upon other intriguing sports developments within China, including the influence and challenges faced by North American sports leagues operating in the Chinese market.

This episode is tailored for listeners eager to understand the nuances of China's evolving sports landscape and the broader implications for international sports dynamics.

Discussion Points:

• China's Olympic Performance: Evaluating the significance of the Paris 2024 Olympics for China and the emphasis on gold medals.
• Highlight on Zheng Qinwen: Discussing the impact of her gold medal win on China's sports scene.
• Controversies in Swimming: Analyzing the issues surrounding high-profile Chinese swimmers and their implications.
• Celebrity Culture in Sports: Exploring the phenomenon of athletes as celebrities and the social dynamics it creates.
• Broader Sports Developments: Delving into the presence and challenges of North American sports leagues in China.

In this informative episode of The Negotiation podcast, host Todd Embley is joined by Olivia Plotnick, the founder of Wai Social and a renowned expert in China marketing. 

Since her last appearance on the podcast in 2020, the landscape of digital consumption in China has evolved significantly, and Olivia is here to shed light on the latest trends and platforms shaping the Chinese market.

Olivia kicks off the discussion by updating listeners on the shifts in consumer behavior and the emergence of new marketing platforms. The conversation zooms in on Xiaohongshu, a platform that, while hugely popular in China, remains relatively unknown to many Western audiences. Olivia explains what Xiaohongshu is, detailing its features, interface, user base, and its unique position in the social media landscape.

She discusses the impact of Xiaohongshu on users' lives, particularly how it influences shopping behaviors and lifestyle choices. Olivia provides valuable insights into how brands are successfully leveraging Xiaohongshu, offering practical tips for marketers looking to engage with this platform. She also clarifies the difference between Key Opinion Leaders (KOLs) and Key Opinion Consumers (KOCs), and discusses which product categories thrive on Xiaohongshu.

Highlighting recent successful campaigns, Olivia points out innovative strategies that brands have employed on Xiaohongshu. She also explores current lifestyle trends that are gaining traction on the platform, like "Citywalk," and their broader implications for consumer engagement.

Lastly, Olivia addresses the buzz around the 6/18 shopping festival, providing her perspective on whether these large-scale promotional events still resonate with consumers in a rapidly changing retail environment.

Discussion Points:

• Updates on China's digital consumption landscape since 2020.
• An in-depth look at Xiaohongshu: features, user base, and market position.
• The influence of Xiaohongshu on consumer behavior and lifestyle.
• Effective strategies for brands using Xiaohongshu and tips for new entrants.
• The distinction between KOLs and KOCs on social platforms.
• Product categories that are well-suited for marketing on Xiaohongshu.
• Analysis of recent standout brand campaigns on Xiaohongshu.
• Emerging lifestyle trends on Xiaohongshu and their impact on marketing.
• The relevance of shopping festivals like 6/18 in today’s consumer market.

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      China’s hockey culture versus that of America

●      How China’s youth is typically introduced to hockey

●      Hockey leagues and training programs available for adults in China

●      Active recreational rinks in China

●      A geographical layout of hockey in China

●      The business of sports development in China from a Westerner’s point of view

●      Chinese parents’ motivation for getting their kids involved in hockey

●      Chinese hockey referees

●      Hockey fans in China

●      Professional hockey in China

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we talk with international hockey consultant Mark Simon. He has spent 15 years as an expert in the Chinese hockey industry, from team coaching to program creation to on-the-ground operations. He has also collaborated with numerous media outlets on navigating the Chinese landscape from a marketing perspective.

Mark is a key member of the leadership team for China Hockey Group, the country’s largest organization dedicated to running high-level adult and youth hockey programs both locally and on the world stage.

He is also the founder of Hockey Hands, a non-profit organization teaching English and hockey to orphans, migrant children, and children with disabilities.

Hockey’s popularity in China is nowhere near that of Canada or the U.S., nor is there much of a “grassroots” movement around the sport. Mark points out that the youth largely treat hockey as just another “class” rather than as a genuinely fun activity they voluntarily engage in, not to mention the fact that enrolling a child in hockey is a particularly expensive endeavor in China.

Teenagers who do develop passion and demonstrable skills for hockey end up migrating elsewhere to be able to pursue their sport in a country with an established hockey scene. As for adults, ex-pats make up a large majority of local hockey players and enthusiasts as hockey remains a minor sport in China.

Mark gives his thoughts on the role of guanxi in any business interaction among the Chinese, hockey and sports, in general, being no exception. He also notes the glaring lack of professional teams in the country, especially amid the pandemic, and what the future of hockey might look like going forward.

Key Quotes:

“There isn’t much of a hockey culture in China, unfortunately. It doesn’t enter the zone of the common person at all. It’s really only the hockey parents—the hockey families—who end up learning anything about the sport.”

“In China, it’s very much about relationships—guanxi. [...] I had to learn that you can’t just be as honest as you’d like to be because, typically, Chinese people don’t want to have a confrontation.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      China’s football landscape

●      Why football has a more active fanbase than basketball in China

●      Grassroots football in China

●      How prioritization of education over almost all else impacts sport culture in China

●      The biggest football teams in China and their dynamic with fans

●      Chinese football and the Chinese government

●      Where Chinese football players need to improve on a tactical level

●      Covering football in China as a foreign journalist

●      The future of football in China

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Cameron Wilson, a writer on all things Chinese football published by World Soccer, The Guardian, and AFP. He is the Founding Editor of Wild East Football.

Football has been “on the go” in China since 1994 but has had uneven development since its introduction. From corruption scandals to failed investments in an attempt to give local players a platform on the world stage, Cameron says that Chinese football “is in a bad place” up until today.

Cameron names another issue regarding the slow growth of football in China as the lack of a grassroots system. As with other sports in the country, attempts at development very much come top-down—and so far, there has been no Yao Ming of football to inspire the youth. The relatively low interest in building the national player base is further compounded by the fact that parents continue to push education as a priority above all else.

Chinese football, according to Cameron, is probably “too tactical” for their own good. That is, there is very little if any, encouragement to be creative on the pitch, as opposed to the football culture of the West.

Finally, Cameron speaks on the difficulty of being able to paint a full, well-rounded picture of Chinese football as a foreign journalist, considering there is a lot of suspicion toward the foreign press.

Overall, football is not dead in China, but it is developing at a snail’s pace. Now that the pandemic has further hampered the growth of the sports landscape in general, the future of Chinese football is uncertain.

Key Quotes:

“The U.S. has been a consistent World Cup qualifier since it was launched. So, basically, the domestic league in the U.S. has supported the national team; whereas in China, it has not had the same effect. China has only been to the World Cup once, which was in 2002, and they basically went home after three defeats and scored no goals.”

“Grassroots football in China is quite unlike grassroots sports elsewhere, because there is simply a lack of people involved. [...] There is not really a casual or leisure grassroots sports system in China. Everything is based on identifying young talents at a very young age and whisking them off to an Olympic gold medal factory.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      China’s consumer PC market in the early-to-mid-90s

●      Why many companies struggled in the 90s while Intel thrived

●      Building the Chinese social networking app Guanxi in the early-2010s

●      Co-founding mInfo, the official mobile search provider to the Beijing Olympics in 2008

●      What internet marketing looked like 20 years ago and the impact of mobile in the 2000s

●      The early days of eCommerce and the reasons for its dramatic growth

●      What foreign VR companies should do to localize for the Chinese market

●      How VR is perceived in China versus the West and why it took a long time to take off

●      Where the world of VR will be in five to ten years

●      What Alvin means by: “The metaverse will expand—not replace—the internet.”

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Alvin Wang Graylin, China President at HTC. Established in 1997, HTC is an award-winning developer of smart mobile, connected technology, and virtual reality products.

Alvin is also the Vice President of the Industry of Virtual Reality Alliance (IVRA) and the President of the Virtual Reality Venture Capital Alliance (VRVCA)

He has almost three decades of business management experience in the tech industry, including 20 years in Greater China beginning with a Senior Management position at Intel in 1993. Prior to HTC, Alvin was a serial entrepreneur, having founded four venture-backed startups in the mobile and internet spaces, covering mobile social, adtech, search, AI, big data and digital media. Additionally, he has held $100+ million P&L roles at a number of public companies.

Today, Alvin is a sought-after speaker and thought leader on the topics of VR/AR/AI in China and globally.

According to Alvin, the key consideration of the Chinese government when scrutinizing foreign companies is the potential for technology transfer. It is a tit-for-tat attitude that Intel was able to abide by, resulting in a collaboration that allowed Intel to thrive while most other foreign consumer PC brands of the time failed to penetrate the market.

Alvin looks back on an early career in the Chinese tech space where innovation was rampant, including his experience building the Chinese social networking app Guanxi in the early-2010s, as well as co-founding mInfo, the official mobile search provider to the Beijing Olympics in 2008.

Finally, Alvin discusses his current role at HTC developing smart mobile and VR products. “In every area of this industry,” he says, “there is innovation happening.” The common thread tying these innovations together is the ever-blurring line between distinct features that make up many of today’s devices. In the near future, Alvin foresees smart mobile devices for both personal and business uses, incorporating both VR and AR technologies.

Alvin concludes: “Anybody at any age can put on these devices and behave as they do in the real world.”

Key Quotes:

“There were tons of consumers out there, but how could we get them into this new internet and multimedia trend that’s starting to happen? One was getting the prices way down. Two was helping to take all this global content and localizing it. And three was creating low-end consumer channels that were able to reach out to all the different Tier 2, 3, 4, 5 cities that didn’t have access to computer stores at all.”

“COVID has really accelerated the interest in the VR industry because people are now recognizing that you’re able to be productive and eliminate a lot of business travel. But having a video-only interaction doesn’t feel personal enough; so, VR is a good alternative to help enhance that sense of being together.”

“The old internet—the 2D internet—does not go away. I actually see the Metaverse as, essentially, the internet of today expanded to interact with 3D content, and uses an immersive device—like an AR or VR device—to experience this 3D content. But at the same time, these 3D devices can be used to experience 2D content. [...] This Metaverse needs to be something that’s completely open, that anybody can get into through any device, and it needs to be at global standards to be operable across different countries and different operating systems.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      Major trends across China eCommerce and consumer behavior in the past year

●      Categories that are doing really well in China today

●      Non-traditional categories that are on the way up

●      The younger generation’s move “back to basics” and “materialism fatigue”

●      Finding the keys to finding purchase motivation amid China’s “post-consumer high”

●      China’s anti-monopoly policies and their long-term implications

●      What digital online platforms Michael is most excited about

●      The rising dominance of “information capitalism” and its implication on culture

●      Bridging the in-store and the digital experience

●      Why live streaming has not taken off in North America yet (and when it will)

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we talk with Michael Zakkour, founder of 5 NEW DIGITAL, an exclusive consulting organization that advises its clients on strategy, structure, implementation and transformation in the age of the digital industrial revolution - across the "5 New" - New Retail, New Technology, New Finance, New Supply Chain and New Manufacturing. He is also the author of "New Retail: Born in China, Going Global.” 

We look back on the past year and note the major developments across China's eCommerce and consumer behavior.

Michael says, “What we’re really seeing now is a blending of the idea of, ‘What is eCommerce?’ with the idea of, ‘What is social commerce?’” He contends that this is an inevitability that was fast-forwarded as a result of the pandemic. The typical Chinese consumer now no longer sees a distinction between the two—that live streaming, AR, VR, ER, and the like are now one and the same. “It’s all becoming part of this larger-than-life, technicolor, robust experience of shopping.”

He then goes into the current and rising trends in the market, which turn out to largely be the home, beauty, and kitchen industries as consumers—particularly the younger generation—have begun to embrace a “back-to-basics” lifestyle in the wake of “materialism fatigue”.

Michael also does a deep dive into the question of monopolistic practices in China and how they relate to those in the U.S. He addressed the potential for decoupling, saying that it is not so much the economies of the West that we should be considering in this particular case, but the decoupling of the world of technology and information between East and West.

Finally, Michael looks forward towards the retail landscape in 2022, touching on the economic and cultural impacts of what he calls “information capitalism”, China’s mastery in bridging the in-store and digital buying environments, and why live streaming is set to take the world by storm this year—even in the West.

Key Quotes:

“What we’re really seeing now is a blending of the idea of, ‘What is eCommerce?’ with the idea of, ‘What is social commerce?’ [...] Live streaming, VR, AR, ER—it’s all becoming part of this larger than life, technicolor, robust experience of shopping.”

“Chinese companies have been far better than their Western counterparts at making digital commerce, shopping—where people are actually shopping: It’s social, it’s fun, it’s engaging, it’s robust, it’s loud, it’s colorful. It’s everything that shopping should be.”

“You will find all the keys to purchase motivation in China through [their] language, culture, history, and philosophy. Over and over and over again, the brands and the retailers and the CPGs and the companies that make it in China spend the requisite time ahead of time, and are constantly looking into those core four in order to build the Chinese version of who they are.”

“Are we headed to a decoupling? Now, when people talk about decoupling, they’re usually thinking about the decoupling of the economies of the West in China. But in this particular case, we’re talking about: ‘Are we heading towards the decoupling of the world of technology and information between East and West?’ That’s the big question.”

“Our relationship with and the usage of technology and information, along with our relationship with the environment and sustainability, and our relationship with our government are going to be the three mega-forces that will shape the rest of this century.”

“Physical retail matters and it always will. So, the question then, is, ‘How do you build a relationship between the physical and the digital worlds, and the physical and the digital experiences?’”

This episode is a look back at all of our podcast guests and the topics we covered in 2020, putting together some of our favorite moments for you into one single episode of goodness. The guests featured in this special episode are:
Matt Sheehan, episode #75
John Pomfret, episode #78
Anne Stephensn-Yang, episode #82
James McGregor, episode #83
Chloé Goncalves, episode #85
Charles Lavoie, episode #91
Benjamin Wahl, episode #92
Greg Turner, episode #93
Ambassador Dominic Barton, episode #100
Zak Dychtwald, episodes #101 & #102
Mark Dreyer, episode #106
Rui Ma, episodes #110 & #111
Freddie Bacon, episodes #112 & #113
Craig Smith, episode #121
Gordon Houlden, #122

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      Snowsports culture in China versus Japan

●      Consumers in China’s snowsports industry versus the West’s

●      How Burton markets and localizes snowsports in China

●      Marketing snowsports as a lifestyle in China

●      The evolution of retail in China and how Burton has adapted

●      How to set goals and strategize for a market entry into China

●      The impact of the 2022 Winter Olympics on Burton China

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Craig Smith, CEO of Burton Snowboards China. Founded in 2013 in Beijing, Burton China has grown to over 40 dealerships nationwide and seven premium partner resorts.

Craig started with Burton at their Tokyo office two decades prior. Regarding snowsports, Craig says that “the cultural differences in China and Japan are numerous.” One major example is Japan’s strict attention to detail as compared to China’s spontaneity and love for adventure.

Likewise, consumers in the Chinese snowsports industry differ considerably from those of the Americas and Europe. For one thing, snowsports only began to explode in popularity in 2016. Also, Chinese consumers generally make most of their buying decisions based on the Key Opinion Leaders (KOLs) they follow, whereas consumers in the West—particularly with regard to the sports industry—refer to magazines for the information they need.

Asked about how Burton goes about their marketing snowboarding in China, Craig says that education and painting a vivid picture of the lifestyle around snowsports rather than the products and facilities themselves is key to winning consumers’ hearts. In Burton’s own words, “We’re bringing the spirit of snowboarding to the consumer 365 days a year.”

Craig goes on to offer his advice to foreign companies looking to enter the Chinese market, which includes doing deep research on the cultural nuances of the market and your ideal customer, finding a local partner to help you navigate government regulations, and being prepared to move at China speed.

Finally, Craig speaks on Burton’s plans for the 2022 Winter Olympics and how they aim to be a player in the Chinese government’s goal to create “300 million snowsports enthusiasts” in the country.

Key Quotes:

“Chinese consumers are in a very different stage of development in the snowsports industry compared to consumers in the Americas and in Europe, just because snowsports are so new—snowsports really only took off in 2016.”

“The most important focus for Burton China is sharing the fun of the lifestyle around snowboarding.”

“My suggestion for companies looking to enter the Chinese market is: Learn about the market first and foremost. Learn about the consumer. Learn their wants—what motivates them to engage with a brand. That takes time, and that takes a lot of patience.”

“In China, government relations are extremely important. It’s difficult for foreign companies to come in and build government relations, and that’s where a local partner certainly can help.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      Contemporary China through the lens of fashion and culture

●      The new thinking around fashion and individuality among China’s younger generations

●      China’s fashion scene today and how it differs from that of New York

●      Does China have fashion icons?

●      China’s urban underground scene

●      The future of fashion in China

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Elsbeth van Paridon, a sinologist, journalist, and lover of China fashion, lifestyle, and urban culture. In 2018, Elsbeth founded The China Temper, a print and digital publication which “offers a gritty slash grungy look at contemporary China through a fashion-focused lens.”

Aside from her work with The China Temper, Elsbeth serves as an editorial consultant at the Beijing Review, an editor at WeAr Global Magazine, and a contributor to SupChina and RADII China.

“With economic development comes the development of the individual,” says Elsbeth. With regards to fashion and culture, for the longest time Chinese people as a whole have shied away from standing out from the crowd as individuals. However, in the last decade, those living in Tier 1 cities have largely shifted away from this attitude dramatically.

Elsbeth gives her thoughts on the idea of individuality in the country, from the rigid conformism of Mao’s China to a new generation “caught between tradition and innovation”. She refers to the modern fashion scene itself not as “trendsetting” but as “trend-dictating”, driven by the power of the stories behind the clothes.

She goes on to speak on China’s urban underground, particularly in Beijing (as she contends that “everything in Shanghai is above-ground”) and the trends that have emerged out of it, such as tattoos.

Finally, Elsbeth believes that gender-fluid fashion—which unbeknownst to most actually has strong historical roots in the country—is here to stay.

Key Quotes:

“With economic development comes the development of the individual, and fashion is a major part of that. It is a complete reflection of what is going on in society.”

“Fashion is a daily conversation between you and the world.”

“I only make fashion statements. I don’t make political statements. That way, it’s quite easy to create content. I’m telling stories about China from a completely different angle. Nobody’s doing it, and it’s the ultimate soft power.”