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Explore every episode of the podcast The Messy Middle Matters

Dive into the complete episode list for The Messy Middle Matters. Each episode is cataloged with detailed descriptions, making it easy to find and explore specific topics. Keep track of all episodes from your favorite podcast and never miss a moment of insightful content.

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TitlePub. DateDuration
Ep 02: Words Matter12 Mar 202500:34:39

The way we define and communicate ideas—whether through common language, acronyms, or company-specific terms—shapes how we work together. Without a shared vocabulary, teams risk misalignment, confusion, and even chaos.

In this episode, we explore why shared understanding is foundational to navigating the messy middle. We’ll dig deeper into what the messy middle really means and why it deserves an entire podcast. When we can name and define the challenges we face, we gain the clarity needed to move forward—together.

Join us as we unpack the power of language, alignment, and shared meaning in the moments that matter most.

Useful Links:

Ep 01: Welcome to The Messy Middle10 Mar 202500:12:56

The messy middle—it’s that chaotic, uncertain, sometimes frustrating space between where you started and where you want to be. It’s the part of the journey that rarely makes it into the highlight reel, but it’s where the real work happens.

In this first episode, we introduce The Messy Middle Matters and why this often-overlooked stage of work and life deserves more attention. We’ll share our experiences navigating the messy middle, what draws us to these conversations, and who we hope to highlight.

If you’ve ever felt stuck, overwhelmed, or like you’re in the thick of it with no clear way forward—this podcast is for you. Welcome to The Messy Middle Matters. Let’s dig in.

Ep 04: Making the Invisible Work Count (Glue Work)26 Mar 202500:26:36

Some work is easy to measure—deadlines met, projects delivered, goals achieved. But what about the work that holds everything together?

In this episode, Indra and Amanda discuss their journey of recognizing Glue Work, the often invisible tasks that keep teams functioning but rarely get acknowledged. They share how naming this work was a crucial first step and explore strategies to make it visible, valued, and recognized as a part of career growth.

This is just the beginning of a much bigger conversation, because no one should have to choose between doing the work that keeps teams thriving and advancing in their careers.

 

Helpful Links

Ep 03: The Overdiagnosis of Impostor Syndrome19 Mar 202500:24:05

Impostor syndrome is often framed as an internal struggle, but what if the real issue isn’t impostor syndrome, but something else?

In this episode, Indra and Amanda explore the fine line between impostor syndrome and the discomfort of learning something new. 

They also share a real-life workplace experience where they initially thought they were battling self-doubt—only to uncover a deeper, systemic issue at play. They walk through how they gathered the right people, documented the challenge, and ultimately realized the problem wasn’t what it seemed. 

Join us as we discuss the power of reframing workplace struggles and why caring for the collective leads to better outcomes for everyone.

Things mentioned in our episode:

Ep 53: Becoming Myself Again, One Episode at a Time25 Mar 202600:13:16

Indra reflects on her podcast journey over the past year, sharing successes, challenges, and personal growth. She discusses the evolution of her podcast, technological hurdles, and how the experience has transformed her confidence and voice.

 Takeaways

  • Consistency in content creation builds confidence.
  • Technological hurdles are significant but manageable.
  • Reflecting on progress reveals areas of growth and improvement.
  • Feedback from listeners is vital for motivation and direction.

More from Indra and The Messy Middle Matters

Keywords

podcast journey, personal growth, technology challenges, self-confidence, retrospective, podcasting tips

Chapters

00:00 Reflecting on Season One

03:09 What Went Well: Celebrating Successes

06:04 Challenges Faced: Technology and Consistency

09:06 Personal Growth: Finding Confidence Through Podcasting

11:55 Looking Ahead: Future of the Podcast

12:40 Outro + Post-roll - Like and Subscribe

Ep 52: From Rioja to Holistic Home: The Power of Passion in Professional Journeys w/ Ana Fabiano18 Mar 202600:32:33

In this episode, Indra and Ana Fabiano explore the intricate journey of Ana's career in the wine industry, her deep connection to the Rioja region, and the launch of her new venture, Rioja Holistic Home. They discuss the importance of passion, authenticity, and building trust with craftspeople, especially in a traditionally male-dominated industry. The conversation highlights the shift towards sustainability and intentional living, emphasizing the value of community and patience in navigating the 'messy middle' of personal and professional growth.

Takeaways

  • Let your passion guide you in your career.
  • Authenticity is crucial in building connections.
  • Rioja represents more than just wine; it's a cultural experience.
  • Building trust with craftspeople requires respect and dedication.
  • The wine industry is becoming more inclusive of women.
  • Intentional living can enhance well-being and connection.
  • Sustainability is a growing focus in consumer choices.
  • The messy middle is a vital part of any journey.
  • Patience is essential when navigating challenges.
  • Community support is key to success in business.

More from Ana Fabiano

More from Indra and The Messy Middle Matters

Keywords

career paths, authenticity, Rioja, wine industry, craftspeople, sustainability, holistic living, intentionality, women in business, personal growth

Ep 43: Navigating the First 90 Days w/ Amanda Jane Lee14 Jan 202600:32:00

Starting a new role can feel overwhelming, even when you know the basics—logging in, getting paid, finding the coffee. In this episode, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee go beyond standard onboarding advice to explore how to truly set yourself up for success in your first 90 days.

They discuss the importance of asking foundational questions, building your own organizational maps, decoding internal vocabulary, and taking a listening-first approach to understand culture and team dynamics. From strategic one-on-ones to creating your own “maps” of reporting structures and workflows, this episode is full of practical tips for making meaningful first impressions, establishing your brand, and navigating both in-person and remote environments.

Whether you’re joining a hyper-growth startup, a large enterprise, or a cross-functional team, this conversation equips you with tools to orient yourself, gather context, and thrive in the messy middle of a new role.

Useful Links

Ep 42: Spot the Green Flags: Leveraging AI for Role Fit & Career Clarity07 Jan 202600:23:47

In this conversation, Amanda Jane Lee discusses the innovative use of AI in self-discovery and career guidance. She emphasizes how AI can assist individuals in identifying their strengths and preferences through targeted questioning, making the process of career exploration more efficient and personalized.

Takeaways

  • AI can help identify personal strengths and preferences.
  • Mind mapping software is a useful tool in self-discovery.
  • Asking the right questions is crucial for self-exploration.
  • AI can generate questions to guide personal discovery.
  • Understanding green flags is important in career choices.
  • Self-discovery can be enhanced through technology.
  • AI can streamline the process of finding suitable roles.
  • Personalized guidance can lead to better career decisions.
  • The role of AI in career exploration is growing.
  • Embracing technology can aid in personal development.

Useful Links

Ep 41: From Expert to Leader: The Emotional Journey to People Management w/ Laura Lillie Goodridge17 Dec 202500:38:16

This conversation delves into the complexities of transitioning into leadership roles, emphasizing the emotional and practical challenges faced by new managers. Indra K and Laura Lillie Goodridge explore the jarring shift from individual contributor to manager, the importance of self-awareness, and the need for effective communication and feedback. They discuss the lack of support many organizations provide for new leaders and the significance of finding the right coaching and resources to navigate this transition successfully. The dialogue highlights the evolving nature of leadership in today's workplace, advocating for a more empathetic and self-aware approach to management.

Takeaways

  • Transitioning to leadership is a significant emotional and practical shift.
  • New managers often feel isolated from their previous peer relationships.
  • Organizations frequently lack adequate support for new leaders.
  • Effective communication is crucial for setting expectations and managing teams.
  • Feedback should be a two-way street, involving both giving and receiving.
  • Self-discovery is essential for understanding one's leadership style.
  • Coaching can provide valuable external perspectives for new leaders.
  • Understanding company leadership styles is vital for alignment.
  • New managers should focus on fundamental skills before reshaping their identity.
  • The landscape of leadership is evolving towards a more empathetic approach.

Useful Links

Ep 40: Starting Over Again: The Humility of Career Change w/ Mikki Hoffman10 Dec 202500:37:36

In this conversation, Mikki and Indra explore the complexities of navigating career changes and the profound shifts in identity that accompany them. They discuss the importance of humility, community support, and vulnerability during transitions, emphasizing the need to redefine one's identity and align actions with personal values. The dialogue highlights the significance of small impacts and the ripples they create within communities, encouraging listeners to embrace change and seek connection.

Takeaways

  • The job market is unpredictable, leading to frequent career changes.
  • Identity can shift significantly when changing roles or companies.
  • Experiential design and community engagement can be fulfilling career paths.
  • Humility is essential when starting anew in a different field.
  • Community support plays a crucial role during transitions.
  • Vulnerability can lead to deeper connections and support.
  • Redefining one's identity is a journey that requires self-reflection.
  • Embracing change can lead to personal growth and new opportunities.
  • It's important to align actions with personal values.
  • Every small impact can create ripples in the community.

Useful Links

Ep 39: It Sounds Like Empowerment, But It’s Actually Avoidance w/ Amanda Jane Lee03 Dec 202500:34:10

In this episode, Indra and Amanda discuss the complexities of co-creation in the workplace, particularly when it comes to leadership dynamics and the responsibilities that come with collaboration. They explore the importance of providing structure in collaborative efforts, the pitfalls of starting from a blank slate, and the need for clear expectations and communication. The conversation also touches on the challenges of goal setting, particularly with OKRs, and the significance of documenting contributions to avoid repeating past mistakes. Ultimately, the episode emphasizes the need for both leaders and team members to understand their roles and responsibilities in collaborative projects.

Takeaways

  • Co-creation can often feel like a delegation of responsibilities.
  • Leaders should come prepared to collaborate, not just delegate.
  • Providing structure is essential for effective collaboration.
  • Blank slates can lead to confusion and misalignment.
  • People often don't know what they want until they see it.
  • Documenting past experiences can help avoid future pitfalls.
  • Understanding your bandwidth is crucial before taking on new tasks.
  • Negotiating expectations can lead to better outcomes.
  • The concept of 'what's in it for me' is important for all parties.
  • OKRs should not be a bottom-up process without clear guidance.

Useful Links

Chapters

00:00 Navigating Co-Creation in the Workplace

01:47 The Challenges of Role Definition

04:58 The Importance of Structure in Collaboration

07:47 The Value of Providing Context

10:59 Understanding Leadership Dynamics

13:44 Assessing Personal Boundaries and Responsibilities

16:56 Negotiating Expectations and Outcomes

19:51 The Slippery Slope of Helping

22:52 The Pitfalls of Bottom-Up Goal Setting

25:56 Documenting and Learning from Experiences

33:25 Outro

Ep 38: Scaling Culture While Everything’s in Motion (w/ Derek Kastner)19 Nov 202500:31:58

What does it take to build—and protect—culture when your team and community are growing faster than your playbook? In this episode, Indra talks with Derek Kastner, Head of Experience at Fabrik, about what it really means to nurture community and connection in a rapidly scaling organization.

From being one of Fabrik’s first three employees to helping onboard its growing team and shape the member experience, Derek shares candid lessons about balancing perfectionism with presence, co-creating culture with members, and learning to set boundaries while staying deeply human. Together, they explore the tension between structure and spontaneity, the invisible “glue work” that holds communities together, and how transparency, trust, and a little messiness can make something truly special.

Useful Links:

Ep 37: Changing Course. Bouncing Back. w/ Nancy E. Krulik12 Nov 202500:30:10

When the world shifts under your feet, what do you do next? In this episode, Indra talks with bestselling children’s author Nancy Krulik about the art of resilience and reinvention. From investigative journalism to over 250 books for kids — and now animation — Nancy’s career is a masterclass in adapting, learning, and staying curious when plans fall apart.

Together, they explore what it takes to recognize when it’s time to pivot, how to turn setbacks into opportunities, and why nothing you learn is ever wasted. Nancy shares hard-earned lessons on staying grounded through industry changes, embracing new tools (including AI), and rediscovering hidden talents along the way.

If you’ve ever been knocked down and wondered how to begin again — this conversation is your reminder that resilience isn’t just about bouncing back; it’s about changing course with purpose.

Listen for:

  • How to turn a downturn into a creative turning point
  • The value of lifelong learning and fearless experimentation
  • Why “nothing is ever wasted” — even the hard parts
  • How staying true to your craft helps you weather change

Useful Links:

Ep 36: Aligning Human Behavior w/ Business Needs: Why People Push Back (w/Amanda Jane Lee)05 Nov 202500:26:40

Business goals and human behavior don’t always line up — and the friction can stall progress, frustrate teams, and leave leaders scratching their heads. In this episode, we dive into real-world examples where business logic clashes with human tendencies, from time tracking to communication challenges and conflicting incentives. We share strategies for bridging the gap, including clear rationale, collaboration across teams, and open forums to build trust. If you’ve ever wondered why good processes fail despite good intentions, this episode is for you.

Useful Links:

Ep 35: When Perfectionism Holds You Back (w/Amanda Jane Lee)29 Oct 202500:28:33

Perfectionism can drive excellence — but it can also stall progress, create stress, and keep teams stuck. In this episode, we explore the “pencils down” metaphor, helping you recognize when good enough is actually brilliant. We discuss the roots and benefits of perfectionism, the pitfalls of over-editing and micromanagement, and how leaders can model healthy standards. Packed with practical strategies for releasing control, encouraging iteration, and knowing when to move on, this episode is a guide for anyone ready to break free from perfectionism without sacrificing quality.

Useful Links:

Ep 34: Breaking Out of Corporate Life w/ Ashley Grace Jefferson22 Oct 202500:32:32

Thinking about leaving corporate America but not sure what it really takes? In this episode, Indra sits down with Ashley Grace Jefferson to explore the mental, emotional, and practical shifts involved in breaking free from the corporate system.

They unpack the culture and incentives of corporate life, address the fears and stigma around leaving, and discuss the logistical realities—from health insurance to financial planning—that often catch people off guard. Ashley and Indra share personal stories of doubt, courage, and resilience, highlighting the importance of community, support systems, and authentic identity when taking the leap.

Whether you’re dreaming of entrepreneurship, a career pivot, or simply choosing yourself over a paycheck, this conversation offers insight, encouragement, and actionable advice for making the jump and building a life on your own terms.

Key Takeaways:

  • Recognize the mental and emotional shifts required to leave corporate life.
  • Prepare for practical realities like benefits, finances, and pricing your work.
  • Build community and support systems to replace what you leave behind.
  • Embrace vulnerability, resilience, and the evolution of your authentic identity.
  • Take the leap even if you don’t feel “ready”—your path will grow with you.

Join us and discover how to choose yourself, navigate uncertainty, and redefine what freedom and fulfillment mean in your career.

 

Useful Links:

Ep 51: The Secret Memos of Agency Life: Unpacking Imposter Syndrome w/ Kat Logan11 Mar 202600:36:04

In this episode of Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Kat delve into the complexities of Imposter Syndrome, exploring its roots, manifestations, and the societal conditioning that often exacerbates it, particularly for women. They discuss practical tools and strategies for reframing negative self-perceptions, the importance of coaching and mentorship, and the need for authentic role models. The conversation emphasizes the significance of finding support and resources to navigate the challenges of self-doubt and encourages listeners to embrace their true selves.

Key Takeaways

  • Imposter Syndrome is often more prevalent among women due to societal conditioning.
  • The concept of 'secret memos' illustrates how people feel out of place in social settings.
  • Reframing negative thoughts is crucial in overcoming Imposter Syndrome.
  • Writing down negative beliefs can help in assessing their truth.
  • Coaching provides an objective perspective that can aid in personal growth.
  • Client preferences can impact self-perception and work satisfaction.
  • Women often have fewer role models in leadership roles, making it harder to find relatable guidance.
  • Authenticity is vital in overcoming Imposter Syndrome and finding one's voice.
  • Support systems, whether human or virtual, are essential for personal development.
  • Taking small steps and finding resources can help in managing self-doubt.

Resources

Find Kat

More from Indra and The Messy Middle Matters

Keywords

Imposter Syndrome, Coaching, Mentorship, Women in Leadership, Self-Perception, Overcoming Doubt, Personal Growth, Authenticity, Social Conditioning, Professional Development

Chapters

00:00 Understanding Imposter Syndrome

03:02 The Secret Memos and Social Conditioning

06:12 Reframing Imposter Syndrome

08:52 Tools and Practices for Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

11:46 The Role of Coaching and Mentorship

14:49 Navigating Client Expectations and Self-Perception

17:58 The Importance of Role Models

21:19 Raw to Roar: Embracing Authenticity

23:41 Finding Support and Resources

26:52 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Ep 33: The Courage to Step Outside of Your Comfort Zone (w/ Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson)15 Oct 202500:27:28

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra sits down with  Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson to explore what it really feels like to be at a career crossroads. From packing up her life (and two cats!) to drive across the country, to rethinking what success looks like beyond job titles, Juleen shares her story of stepping outside her comfort zone and learning to trust herself. Together, Indra and Juleen unpack the tension between chasing external validation and building a life that feels authentic, sustainable, and joyful. They also reflect on the pressure of “picking your struggle,” filling your own cup, and how content creation can be both a tool for clarity and a leap of faith in itself. If you’ve ever wondered whether to keep climbing the ladder or carve your own path, this conversation is for you.

Useful Links:

Ep 32: Your Brand, Your Rules (w/ Ashley Grace Jefferson - Startup Baddie & F3)08 Oct 202500:30:57

Branding yourself isn’t optional anymore—it’s essential. In this episode, Indra sits down with Ashley Grace Jefferson, founder of Startup Baddie and F3 (Founders, Funders & Fractionals), to explore how to stand out, show up authentically, and even rebrand yourself when the time is right.

They dive into the signs it’s time to rebrand, the difference between corporate and personal branding, and practical steps for making your brand visible—like social media, websites, and visual identity. Ashley shares her own journey, including the story behind her now-famous “Startup Baddie” identity, and offers actionable tips listeners can use immediately.

Beyond the practical, they explore the emotional side of branding: vulnerability, imposter syndrome, handling feedback, and embracing radical acceptance as your brand evolves. Whether you’re an entrepreneur or a professional navigating the modern workplace, this conversation is full of insights to help you feel seen, confident, and ready to take bold steps forward.

Key Takeaways:

  • Recognize when it’s time to rebrand and why it matters.
  • Align your brand with your values, personality, and goals.
  • Show up authentically while managing fear and self-doubt.
  • Take concrete steps to make your brand visible and consistent.
  • Embrace the ongoing evolution of your personal or professional identity.

Join us, and get ready to stand out, show up, and let your brand grow with you!

 

Useful Links:

Ep 31: Professional Identity: How Others See You vs. How You See Yourself (w/ Amanda Jane Lee)01 Oct 202500:23:00

Your professional identity shapes how others see you, how you show up, and the opportunities that come your way. In this episode, we explore the difference between brand (how you want to be seen) and reputation (how others actually see you), and share practical strategies for defining and communicating your identity at work. We dive into real-world examples, tips for aligning your actions with your intentions, and ways to make your presence consistent across teams, projects, and platforms.

Useful Links:

Ep 30: Being Smart vs. Being Prepared (w/ Victor Malena - Ops on Tap)24 Sep 202500:33:44

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra is joined by Victor Malena, founder of  Ops on Tap, to explore the subtle but powerful difference between being smart and being prepared.

Victor shares a career-shaping story from an early mentor who taught him that success often comes less from being the "smartest person in the room" and more from being the one most ready to engage, ask questions, and adapt. Together, Indra and Victor unpack what preparedness looks like in practice—curiosity, clarity, and creating space for others to contribute—while reflecting on how identity, leadership, and even AI play into the dynamics of modern work.

Whether you identify as an operator, a leader, or someone navigating the messy middle of your own career, this conversation offers fresh insight into why preparation isn’t just a safety net—it’s a strategy for thriving.

Useful Links:

Ep 29: Networking Without the Ick: How to Build Real Relationships That Last (w/ Amanda Jane Lee)17 Sep 202500:27:25

Let’s be honest. Networking often conjures awkward happy hours, forced small talk, and a vague sense that you should be doing more of it. But what if it didn’t have to feel gross? In this episode, Indra and Amanda break down how to keep your network warm, show up authentically, and build meaningful relationships that support your career and your humanity. Whether you’re introverted, overwhelmed, or just not sure where to start, this conversation offers a mix of pep talk and practical tips to make networking feel more like connection and less like a chore.

Useful Links:

Bonus Drop: A Quick Update from Indra15 Sep 202500:00:59

Indra drops into your feed with a short update on what’s ahead for The Messy Middle Matters. The next chapter features new voices and experiences, additional stories from the trenches, and an even deeper examination of the work that is rarely seen, heard, or celebrated. Don’t worry. Amanda will still be joining regularly.

Ep 28: Influence vs. Authority: How Change Really Happens10 Sep 202500:19:28

In this episode, Indra and Amanda explore the difference between influence and authority and why mastering influence is essential for most people at work. While authority comes with titles and structure, influence is often how real change happens: through relationships, trust, and timing.

They share personal stories of leading without formal power, the subtle art of planting seeds and letting ideas take root, and strategies for shifting mindsets and behavior over time. Whether you’re driving change from the middle or navigating a complex org, this episode offers practical tips for using influence to get things done—without steamrolling anyone in the process.

Useful Links:

Ep 27: Incentives, Outputs, and Organizational Disconnects03 Sep 202500:27:10

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack a workplace tension that’s all too familiar: what happens when incentives, outputs, and motivation aren’t aligned.

They begin by defining key terms: intrinsic incentives (such as purpose or pride), extrinsic incentives (like pay or praise), and outputs (the tangible results of one's work). Then, they dive into two primary sources of misalignment:

  • Conflicting incentives between teams, crafts, or departments
  • Leadership messages that don’t match real decisions or rewards

With real-life examples, they explore the awkward dynamics that arise when your motivation doesn't match the system you're working in. Whether it's security versus speed, innovation versus client demands, or personal growth versus team goals, misalignment can erode culture, trust, and progress.

Useful Links:

Ep 26: Career Growth vs. Team Cohesion27 Aug 202500:18:52

Belonging to a team can be deeply fulfilling, but what happens when that sense of loyalty starts to conflict with your growth in your craft?

In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the tension between short-term team alignment and long-term career development. They explore what it means to be loyal to your project team, your department, or your craft, especially in roles like program management, design, and marketing, where craft-specific communities may be smaller or less visible.

From navigating conflicting priorities to finding time for your own professional development, they offer insights for both individual contributors and leaders. Expect practical strategies, relatable stories, and a reminder that the messy middle is where real growth happens.

Useful Links:

Ep 25: When Everything is a Top Priority20 Aug 202500:31:12

Why does everything feel urgent all the time — and what does it cost us? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the toll of poor prioritization on teams, leaders, and organizations. 

From the illusion of decision-making to the chaos of shifting priorities, they explore the mental and operational burnout that comes when no one says no. They offer practical tools for creating clarity, setting boundaries, and making prioritization a leadership discipline, not just a labeling exercise. 

Whether you're the one setting the priorities or trying to survive them, this episode offers validation and strategies for pushing back on the pressure.

Useful Links:

Ep 50: The Messy Middle of Agency Life: Pressure, Subjectivity, and Survival w/ Kat Logan04 Mar 202600:34:11

In this conversation, Kat Logan joins Indra to explore the complexities of agency life, discussing the challenges and rewards of working in a dynamic environment. They delve into the impact of client culture, the revolving door of talent, and the importance of building community and support within agencies. The discussion highlights the nuances of navigating agency culture, managing uncertainty, and adapting to different styles while emphasizing the need for connection and collaboration among colleagues. The episode concludes with a teaser for the next topic on imposter syndrome.

 

Key Topics

  • Agency culture and personality influence
  • Impact of client and company culture
  • Revolving door of talent and team dynamics
  • Adapting to agency structure and leadership styles
  • Supporting each other in agency environments
  • Managing uncertainty and career stability
  • Networking and community building within agencies
  • Impacts of industry crises on agency work

 Find Kat:

More from Indra and The Messy Middle Matters

Keywords

agency life, career development, networking, agency culture, leadership, adaptability, agency challenges, agency success, agency community, imposter syndrome

Ep 24: Seniority as a Euphemism13 Aug 202500:17:58

What do people mean when they say someone is “too senior”? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the layered, often coded ways the word "senior" is used in hiring and professional contexts. 

From recruiter conversations to team dynamics, the term is frequently a stand-in for other qualities—such as executive presence, high salary expectations, and perceived difficulty to manage—that often reveal unspoken biases. They explore the disconnect between titles and actual responsibilities, challenge the euphemistic use of senior, and call for clearer, more honest language in describing skills and roles. 

If you’ve ever been told you’re too much or not enough without a clear why, this episode is for you.

Useful Links:

Ep 23: What to Do When There’s Nowhere Left to Grow06 Aug 202500:25:02

What do you do when a talented team member has outgrown what your organization can offer? In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the rarely discussed topic of supporting team members who are ready to move on, not because they've failed, but because they’ve grown. From recognizing career ceilings to embracing talent mobility, they explore how letting go can be an act of leadership, not loss. You’ll hear practical strategies for navigating these moments with honesty, generosity, and long-term vision, turning exits into alumni relationships and potential into legacy.

Useful Links:

Ep 22: Why Hire Smart People if You Won't Let Them Think30 Jul 202500:26:04

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda dive into a frustrating contradiction many professionals have experienced: the same companies that go out of their way to hire the brightest minds often turn around and disempower them the moment they arrive. From micromanagement to fear-based leadership, they examine the organizational dynamics that hinder strong talent and the downstream consequences for innovation, retention, and culture.

With real-life stories and a healthy dose of kiki, they unpack why some leaders can’t “let go,” what it looks like when trust is missing, and how insecurity at the top often trickles down into broken systems. You’ll hear practical strategies for both managers and employees, whether you’re trying to create space for others to shine or just trying to breathe under someone else's heavy hand.

If you’ve ever been hired for your strategic mind but treated like a task rabbit, this one’s for you.

 

Useful Links:

Ep 21: Rockstars, Unicorns, and Other Hiring Myths23 Jul 202500:27:02

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee explore the language used in hiring, specifically the overused and often problematic terms “rockstar” and “unicorn.” They unpack how these labels, while meant to signal excellence, can set unrealistic expectations and perpetuate individualism over collaboration. Along the way, they highlight the real risks of unicorn hunting, the myth of the full-stack engineer, and why generalists deserve more love. They also explore different “letter-shaped” professionals (T-shaped, I-shaped, M-shaped, and more) and discuss how mismatched job titles, overloaded expectations, and leadership insecurity can hinder team performance. And yes, they even tip their hats to The Bangles while rethinking what being a “rockstar” really means at work.

Useful Links:

Ep 20: More Than a Resume: Building Your Digital Presence16 Jul 202500:33:33

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee delve into the evolving landscape of personal branding, beginning with the notion that LinkedIn is no longer just a digital resume. From resharing posts to publishing thought leadership, today’s professionals are expected to build a visible, credible presence that extends far beyond job titles and bullet points.

They reflect on the growing pressure to “show your work” online, how social algorithms shape visibility, and why blogging, podcasting, and even experimenting with AI can become practical tools in your branding toolkit. They also speak candidly about how hard it is to maintain a consistent presence—especially when you're already stretched thin—and why giving yourself grace matters just as much as hitting publish.

Whether you’re just starting to show up online or trying to find your rhythm again, this episode offers both commiseration and encouragement.

Useful Links:

Ep 19: The Craft of Meeting Notes09 Jul 202500:33:15

Taking notes isn’t always busywork; it can be a power move. In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the underrated but essential skill of effective note-taking in the workplace. They reflect on how their own approach has evolved from admin duty to strategic tool and explore why the person writing the notes often holds more influence than you think.

From capturing decisions to controlling narratives, they share tactical advice on building a taxonomy, structuring your notes, and knowing what not to include. Whether you're tired of always being “the note taker” or looking to use your notes to drive strategy, this episode will shift how you see the role and the value it brings.

They also get real about AI tools, human nuance, and how to set yourself and your team up for success in the messy middle of meetings.

Useful Links:

Ep 18: The Meeting About the Meeting About the Meeting02 Jul 202500:33:06

We've all been there—staring at a calendar invite with a cryptic title and no context, then spending the meeting trying to figure out why you're even there. In this episode, Indra and Amanda tackle the all-too-familiar plague of purposeless meetings.

From weekly leadership check-ins to post-meeting debriefs about the next meeting, they unpack the hidden cost of unclear gatherings: time, energy, morale, and productivity. They also offer practical tips for spotting meetings that should never happen—and tools to make the ones that do more effective and engaging.

Whether you love a good working session or loathe yet another calendar clog, this one's for you. Let’s stop gathering without a goal.

Useful Links:

Ep 17: Titles Matter25 Jun 202500:28:58

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the complex role of titles and credentials in professional life. From HRIS databases that never quite get it right to the very real ways marginalized folks use credentials as armor, this conversation explores how titles are used, misused, and misunderstood.

They explore how titles can signal authority, invite (or block) collaboration, and even become tools of gatekeeping. You'll hear insights on how to navigate the mismatch between internal job classifications and your public-facing identity, the difference between strategic self-representation and rigid hierarchy, and why titles never tell the whole story—but still matter deeply.

Whether you're a people leader trying to make equitable org charts, or someone trying to translate your experience for a new industry, this episode offers clarity, nuance, and maybe even a little permission to rewrite your title on your own terms.

 

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Ep 16: Not Everything is a Zero-Sum Game18 Jun 202500:30:50

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the difference between scarcity and abundance mindsets—starting with a “zero-sum game” pizza analogy (yes, pizza 🍕). They explore how our beliefs about resources, success, and competition shape how we lead, collaborate, and show up in the world.

Drawing on The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek, Indra shares how this framework helps leaders break out of short-term, win-or-lose thinking and into a more sustainable, collective approach. Amanda adds insights on how abundance isn’t about being naïve—it’s about being curious, strategic, and generous, even in high-pressure environments.

Whether you're navigating workplace dynamics, managing a team, or just trying to break free of zero-sum thinking, this episode offers real tools for shifting your mindset—and helping others shift theirs.

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Ep 15: Soft Skills: The Skills No One Teaches (but everyone needs)11 Jun 202500:25:11

Soft skills: everyone talks about them, few people define them, and even fewer get help building them. In this episode, Indra and Amanda dig into the nuanced world of interpersonal and emotional intelligence—the unspoken skills that make or break how we collaborate, lead, and show up at work.

From navigating conflict and giving feedback to facilitating meetings and reading the room, they explore why soft skills often surface in high-stakes moments... and why most training programs barely scratch the surface.

They share real talk on:

  • Whether soft skills are innate or learned
  • Why these abilities require practice, not just theory
  • How to start small and build confidence in safe spaces
  • And how to listen to podcasts, panels, or even reality shows with a soft-skills lens

 

This episode is a reminder that emotional intelligence isn’t fluff—it’s foundational. And like any skill, it can be trained, strengthened, and occasionally pulled in for emergency use.

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Ep 49: Listening to Your Inner Voice in a Noisy World w/ Jameelah Calhoun25 Feb 202600:27:27

In a world full of noise, expectations, and competing identities, how do we hear our inner voice? In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra sits down with Jameelah Calhoun, founder of Unpopular Decisions, to explore the courage it takes to choose alignment over conformity. Together, they unpack the difference between fear and intuition, regret versus consequences, and why comfort isn’t always safety. They also discuss the realities of responsibility, intersectionality, and privilege — and why listening to your inner voice doesn’t have to mean reckless abandon. Sometimes it’s about small acts of reclamation, play, and returning home to yourself.

Takeaways

  • Your intuition is often immediate: yes, no, hell yes, hell no. Fear rationalizes. It builds a courtroom case.
  • What feels comfortable may slowly misalign you.
  • Growth often begins when comfort stops feeling safe.
  • Play reconnects us to identities we shed to “fit in.”
  • Not everyone has the same latitude to take bold risks.
  • You don’t know the identities, risks, or responsibilities someone carries.
  • Choosing alignment publicly can give others permission to do the same.
  • Sometimes what looks like instability is actually a return to self.

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Ep 14: Getting Stuff Done: The Value of Project & Program Professionals04 Jun 202500:30:51

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the often overlooked power of Project, Program, and Operations Managers (PMs), the PMs who hold organizations together behind the scenes. As companies cut budgets, these critical roles are frequently the first to go. However, eliminating the very people who create clarity, enable execution, and manage complexity can have long-term consequences.

This episode defines the distinctions between PM roles and highlights the invisible, high-impact work they do, like change management, stakeholder alignment, and process improvement. It challenges the myth that PMs are just about checklists. Indra and Amanda also share how these roles are evolving, the communities shifting the conversation, and why investing in strong PMs is investing in your company’s ability to deliver.

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Ep 13: Why Outsiders Can Say the Quiet Thing Out Loud28 May 202500:22:58

Sometimes it takes an outsider to say what everyone on the inside is thinking but can’t express. In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the value and complexity of bringing in consultants, agencies, and subject matter experts to say the quiet thing out loud. They explore how power dynamics, organizational culture, and fear of professional consequences can keep internal voices silent and why external perspectives can cut through the noise.

Through real-world examples from their careers, they highlight:

  • The benefits of outsider objectivity and “fresh eyes”
  • When and how to bring in external voices for maximum impact
  • The risks and resentments that can arise in these dynamics
  • Practical tips for using consultants without eroding team trust.

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Ep 12: Icebreakers: Creating Space for Connection21 May 202500:22:38

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda dive into the surprisingly powerful world of icebreakers, those sometimes awkward, sometimes delightful moments that set the tone for team connection. Whether you're leading a virtual kickoff, hosting a new hire orientation, or just trying to get humans to look each other in the eyes, the right icebreaker can ease social anxiety, build rapport, and foster inclusive environments.

They explore:

  • Why icebreakers matter (even for well-established teams)
  • What makes an icebreaker effective, and what makes it flounder
  • Tips for adapting to different personalities, cultures, and formats
  • Their favorite (and least favorite) icebreakers
  • How to avoid common pitfalls and keep it purposeful

If you're leading teams or planning meetings, this one's for you. It’s all about creating small moments that invite human connection, without forcing it.

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Ep 11: The Serious Case for Not Taking Everything So Seriously14 May 202500:21:42

Is it possible that the secret to better teamwork, sharper ideas, and a more connected workplace is... play?

In this episode, Indra and Amanda bust the myth that work and play are opposites. They explore how introducing moments of levity, whether it’s custom Slack emojis, playful team names, or low-stakes laughter, can actually deepen collaboration, trust, and creativity.

They break down the different types of play that can live comfortably (and appropriately) in professional settings, and offer guidance on how to bring joy into work without crossing the line into "mandatory fun." Whether you're leading a team or just trying to make your next meeting feel less like a root canal, this conversation invites you to rethink what productivity can look like, when you add a little play to the mix.

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Ep 10: Context Matters: The Power of Clarifying Questions07 May 202500:20:18

"I know what that word means… but what do you mean by it?"

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda dive into the surprisingly powerful skill of asking clarifying questions. Whether it's untangling workplace jargon, bridging communication gaps, or just making sure everyone’s on the same page, asking for context can transform how teams collaborate.

We explore the importance of shared understanding, the art of curiosity without judgment, and the sneaky barriers that keep people from speaking up. From why writing things down can make ideas more accessible to how fear of being wrong stops us from asking for clarity, this episode is a reminder that meaning isn’t universal and questions aren’t weakness, they’re wisdom.

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Ep 09: Work Doesn’t Happen in a Vacuum: Navigating Challenging Times Together30 Apr 202500:25:59

What happens when life outside the office becomes impossible to ignore? In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, we explore what it means to be human at work, particularly during personal, local, or global crises.

From the ongoing effects of the pandemic to sudden personal emergencies, Indra and Amanda explore how leaders and employees alike can demonstrate empathy, set realistic expectations, and foster cultures that prioritize people over productivity.

This is a conversation about acknowledging reality, embracing flexibility, and navigating that murky space between personal and professional life without losing sight of our humanity.

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Ep 08: Boxes, Biases & Breakthroughs: Navigating Self-Assessments at Work23 Apr 202500:29:27

n this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the world of self-assessments. Whether they’re assigned to us by HR or are one of those eerily specific online quizzes we can’t help but take, they explore the pros and cons of personality and performance evaluations, sharing personal stories and asking: When do these tools help us grow? And when do they box us in?

Ep 07: Knowledge Hoarding vs. Sharing: Finding the Right Balance16 Apr 202500:34:16

In this episode, Indra and Amanda break down workplace information dynamics, exploring why some people cling to knowledge, others freely share it, and some strategically keep certain details close to the chest. They unpack the motivations behind each approach, the impact on team dynamics, and how to find a balance that fosters trust while maintaining healthy boundaries.

Plus, they finally explain their matching sweatshirts. Spoiler alert: It’s all about setting limits when you’re the go-to person for answers.

Tune in to reflect on your own information-sharing style and learn small shifts that can lead to big workplace improvements.

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Ep 06: People Management: Not Just a Step Up, A Career Shift09 Apr 202500:28:59

Being good at your job doesn’t automatically mean you’ll be good at managing people. So why do so many companies treat management as the default next step?

In this episode, Indra and Amanda dig into the myths and realities of people management—why some folks are promoted before they’re ready, what actually makes a great leader, and why management isn’t just a promotion but an entirely different job. They explore the essential skills needed to succeed, the emotional labor of leadership, and alternative career paths for those who want to grow without managing people.

Thinking about stepping into management? Already dealing with a less-than-stellar boss? Either way, this episode is for you!

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Ep 05: Feedback Fatigue02 Apr 202500:34:49

These days, feedback is everywhere. But are we benefiting from it, or are we just drowning in a sea of unsolicited opinions and HR-driven surveys?

In this episode, Indra and Amanda dive into the feedback frenzy: how social media and corporate feedback tools have fueled a culture of constant evaluation, the unintended consequences of feedback overload, and the real cost of all these mandatory feedback programs.

They also break down practical ways to filter out the noise, differentiate between helpful and unhelpful feedback, and give feedback in a way that supports growth.

If you’ve ever rolled your eyes at yet another feedback request, this episode is for you!

 

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Ep 48: The Grief Inside of Growth w/ Stephanie Simpson18 Feb 202600:38:49

Growth isn’t just about what we’re building,  it’s also about what we’re letting go.

In this episode, Indra and Stephanie examine the hidden grief that can accompany promotions, career pivots, restructures, and identity shifts. They talk about grieving what you thought would be, survivor’s guilt in the workplace, and why ignoring emotions doesn’t make them disappear. This conversation offers language, perspective, and practical tools for moving through change without bypassing yourself, or your team.

 

Takeaways

  • Grief can show up in unexpected ways, even during positive changes.
  • The 'goo stage' represents the messy transformation process.
  • Letting go of past identities is crucial for growth.
  • Community plays a significant role in our emotional well-being.
  • Grief is not just about loss; it can be about change and transition.
  • Acknowledging grief in the workplace is essential for a healthy culture.
  • Emotions are energy in motion; they need to be allowed to flow.
  • Grief is not linear; it can resurface at any time.
  • Building a supportive community can help navigate grief.
  • Compassion for oneself is key during times of transition.

 

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Keywords

grief, change, transformation, identity, workplace culture, emotional intelligence, goo stage, community, leadership, burnout

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