The Messy City Podcast – Details, episodes & analysis

Truth is, I wish we talked a lot more about making cities as kid-friendly as possible. The topic is often overlooked. That’s why it was fascinating to see Derek Thompson’s article, “The Urban Family Exodus Is a Warning For Progressives” get so much traction. He clearly touched a nerve.

Today, I give my take in this solo podcast. As a father, as someone that loves cities, and someone that is in fact deeply concerned about the trendlines, I share my observations. This one gets a little personal. Ground I cover includes:

1. How parents really feel about their kids

2. What life in American cities is really like

3. How things are different now from the historic norm in the US

4. What parents really prioritize, not what we wish them to prioritize

5. What cities can do

6. How cities *could* be amazing

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Episode Transcript:

Kevin K (00:01.824)

Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg flying solo today, doing an episode in a way that I've done occasionally in the past, but I haven't done a little while. I've had some amazing guests. I've got some more coming up and I love talking to people other than myself primarily in this gig, but it is fun once in a while to just riff on something that's in the news or on my mind.

And that's what I'm going to do today. I do want to take a second and say thank you to all of you who are listening and following. The podcast has really grown a lot in audience the last six months. And I really appreciate everybody tuning in. And if you get a chance, please hit that like or follow button. Leave me a review on your podcast platform, especially if you're on Apple. Apple is the biggest podcast platform by far.

So if you're listening through Apple podcasts, I'd really appreciate it if you gave the show a rating. All of that stuff helps get attraction and grow the audience. And the bigger the audience, the better I will be able to be at providing you all with really good programming and interesting guests and the ability to try to help us all out as we navigate how to improve our cities, how to improve our own situation.

if you're a, a small developer or an aspiring small developer, try to become one. if you are someone who's just interested in cities and planning to do whatever you can do to make your community a better place to live and, and, help us, help us all out in our own little world. So that's the point. That's what I'm trying to do here. And, I hope you enjoy it judging by the numbers. A lot of you are enjoying it. So that's really cool. And, it's,

It's definitely a lot of fun for me. So with that, I want to talk about an article that's made the rounds a lot lately and a topic that I've seen discussed in social media and elsewhere. And it really has to do with the subject of families and big cities. And a lot of this most, the most recent flurry of discussion happened at

Kevin K (02:25.002)

as the result of an article in the Atlantic by Derek Thompson titled, The Urban Family Exodus is a Warning for Progressives. And I'm going to commit a cardinal sin here today where I'm going to talk about this topic without having read the actual article. So forgive me for that, but I will say I have read many, many articles on this topic.

And what I really want to talk about today is just kind of my own experience as a father, as a parent, and my own interaction and evolution on this issue. Because I think there's an awful lot in the context of this subject that we just don't talk very much about. Especially those of us who are in this tiny, tiny niche of

people who call themselves urbanists, who care about cities, who care about development in cities. There's an awful lot tied into this issue that overlaps with others that we've talked about here before, but I think there's some that's really specific about having kids that I'd just like to dive into. So the context really in Derek's article, I did see some of the numbers. I don't have them in front of me. You can find them.

out there, it's not hard to find. But the context was that people with children are continuing to move out of big cities. That this trend really started in the early COVID years, 2020, 2021, and has not really abated. so the article really was kind of a warning, especially to people in some of the larger

cities in the country, the places like New York, San Francisco, Chicago, et cetera, that people who have a choice, who have kids have continued to leave. And so that is why he says it's a warning. I guess I would say right off, right up front, I think this should be a concern for everybody. I don't think it should be a concern just for somebody who calls themselves a progressive. I've always had the opinion that

Kevin K (04:42.818)

Communities and cities are for everybody in every age group, every kind of background, every interest. The best kind of communities really embrace everybody. And it's a little strange to me when we say that, when we just kind of dial it down to like a political impulse. I understand why he's doing that. the reality is that most big cities are run by progressives.

And so I think he's talking to progressive policymakers. But I think this issue really should concern everybody because honestly, when you don't have children living in your city, you have to ask yourself, like, what future does your city have? This is often talked about in relation to like places that are like retirement communities. And a lot of retirement communities also go through phases and fads.

And if they don't evolve, since they're not replacing people themselves, there are no children in retirement communities. And so people aren't growing up there. What happens as people die off and those populations change? Well, the same is true of cities. If children are not growing up in cities and having, or if they're not growing up in your community and having a good feeling about it, it lowers the likelihood that they will want to be there as an adult.

And if you're not going to be there as an adult, it's going to hurt your future population as well. everything in cities is a function of time. And there is that fourth dimension that we often neglect, that things change a lot over time. And we don't think about what might happen 10, 20, 30 years down the road. But if your community doesn't have children in it, that's a big red flashing warning sign.

for what happens in the next generation. So I think this is an issue that should concern everybody. And again, I'd say right up front, I am terribly, terribly biased on this because I do have children. I have two young children, two daughters that are six and eight years old. And so I want to share, I think what might be useful for me, first of all, is to share a little bit of a personal perspective on having kids.

Kevin K (07:09.09)

And then I have some thoughts related to what's going on in terms of evaluating and understanding cities and the landscape of cities in the United States. And then also what we might do, what cities might be able to do to course correct. What can they do to turn this around so that cities can be attractive to people who do have kids and reverse that population loss. So let's just start off with the personal.

not a young person anymore. I certainly don't feel old, but I can't deny the math, but I'm not somebody who's in my 20s or 30s. And I have kids, but I came to having kids pretty late in life compared to most people. So my oldest was born when I was 45 and then my youngest when I was 47. So I'm not in...

What is it? Al Pacino world here? Is it Al Pacino that like that recently had a kid or something and he's about eight years old? I'm not in that world, but I am definitely in the category of people who had kids late in their adult life. And so I lived a long period of time without children in cities and now I'm living with children in a city environment.

and I think the thing, you know, the thing, the way I would like to talk about this first and foremost, there's so much about this that changes. You know, there's a lot of cliches about the things that change. And when you have kids and I knew all those cliches, I heard them a million times. It's really hard to fully understand that until you go through it. And, having children completely rewires your brain.

and your priorities in a lot of ways that have really surprised me as a person. And I have often found myself just like shocked at things that are different about me now that I am caring for and responsible for these two young people. Just, you know, one silly thing is just like...

Kevin K (09:29.184)

you know, my wife and I have talked about this, like anytime there is like a movie or a show on TV and there are children that are like at risk, they're abducted, they're being hurt or harmed in some way. It's like, you know, I just lose it now. And it, the emotion that that creates in me and us is, it's hard to describe. It really,

It affects me in ways that are, they seem kind of silly, but I understand and I empathize much more with the families and people in those situations than I ever would have otherwise. And so it's really kind of bizarre, but it's like an incredible way to just like make me all of a sudden choke up, you know, watching a movie, having some harm come to a small child. But I mean, the reality is,

I will tell you from my experience, you do become much more emotional when you have kids. At least in my experience, I have found a protective impulse, the desire to protect them from harm and from the world that I just wasn't sure that I had that. When I was younger, I didn't know about that, but when once you have those children in your care,

It's incredible how protective you are of just every aspect of their life. so I get why we don't want to become helicopter parents. We are not like that. But I get why people have that reaction. I get the instinct that a lot of parents have to really deeply care for every aspect of what happens in their child's life. And I would say,

If you don't have that kind of reaction, if having kids doesn't change you in some meaningful way, then you should probably take a long look in the mirror. I mean, you might be a sociopath, I'm just saying. And it should change you. because it's an incredible thing to have to care for another human being. It's an incredible joy. And there's definitely the part of me that says, God, I wish

Kevin K (11:54.036)

I had done this when I was younger and even had more kids than just the two of them because they really bring you incredible joy into your life. I would say that probably the highest highs and lowest lows come from being a parent. The moments you have them with them that are really great or fun or memorable from a good standpoint, stand out above and beyond anything else that

you I did for myself in the years before I have kids. So it really is very different and it does tend to make you think that the life you led before kids was very like self -centered and maybe selfish. And I'm not saying that as like an accusation to anybody because, I lived it. I lived it myself for a very long period of time, but it is just really different. So

having kids that you care for really does change your priorities in ways that you probably can't communicate perfectly in an article, especially if you're like a childless person and you're just trying to describe like statistics that are happening and analyze what's going on. If you can't understand the emotion of it, then you're really missing something really important. So one aspect of that

is that with small children especially, you spend an awful lot of your time and mental energy trying to come up with activities for them and trying to entertain them, trying to do these things in ways that you're not worried about their safety. mean, you're literally worried about them surviving every moment.

And so we spend a lot of time like trying to chase down those different activities. And for a lot of small kids in particular, in American cities, a lot of those places are in the suburbs. And I'll talk more about that in a little bit and the evolution of all that. But that is part of the day to day that most parents deal with is, you know, maybe you're going to a kid's play area or a play date.

Kevin K (14:21.192)

or a daycare or a swimming pool or aquatic center or whatever it is. And in American cities, most of those are in suburban locations because that's where most of the kids are. so there is this kind of challenge that you have as somebody who lives in an urban area that there isn't as much just kid -focused amenities as you would have in a lot of suburban areas.

So it's true that if you live in the suburbs, you're still driving a lot to all these places, but it is closer and there's just a lot more of it. And so, you know, as a parent, we do find ourselves getting in the car a lot and driving out to suburban locations for any number of activities. And frankly, the family oriented events and activities, there's just so much more of them that are in businesses and other things in the suburbs.

And it's just, one of the things that I think you can't really describe very well is going to, when you have small children, going to a place where you can kind of just let the kids free and roam around and play with other kids and not worry that they're going to be harmed. there's a, there is like a stress reduction on your own life that happens there. And so you're kind of always looking for those opportunities and there's just not much of that in a lot of urban areas or.

urban locations. Now I think cities have gotten better for families in my lifetime. And there are more things. So like in my city, there's something we call Science City, which is basically just like a kids play area that is in the Union Station in Kansas City, Missouri, that's in the city. It's a really cool place. The kids love going there. That's an example of like a very family and kid focused activity.

And there are some people working on creating more activities nearby and adjacent to it that I think will be really cool. We obviously have parks, we have playgrounds, we have a fantastic park that is a block away from our house that the kids walk down to and it's got a playground and everything. So we've used that a lot. We've got some of those types of things. And we have a neighborhood main street that is just up the block from our house.

Kevin K (16:45.054)

And if we walk a few blocks in one direction, you know, we can hit the ice cream place and there's a taco place and there's, there's, there's some places that are, that are fun to hang out. Now, I will say in our area, most of there are some, most of those businesses are not what we would call like kid friendly places. and maybe that's a, that might be an especially American way of looking at businesses. but they aren't.

And they're generally focused on the demographic of people who live in the cities, which tends to be younger and just certain crowds of people that are not dragging their kids around. we have some of those things. It is better. But we also lack a lot. We don't have a swimming pool, for example, in our neighborhood or anywhere near us.

By contrast, both of my sisters live in suburban subdivisions in our metro that both have neighborhood pools. And they can just walk over any time when they visit their aunts and uncles and they can just go swimming all day. Granted, they pay for that. It's part of your HOA dues if you live in one of those subdivisions. But we don't even have that option in our area at all.

in our part of the city. Now, some cities are better than others. Our city is not particularly good at having those kinds of amenities. And that's really something that is very lacking, not to mention some of those kid play areas. And there's just also very little programming of events that are specifically for kids and families in the city.

Parks department is doing a little bit more of that than they used to, but, it's great. We love, we do as much of that as we can. But when you compare it to the sort of routine events that happen in a lot of our suburban jurisdictions, it just doesn't compare. and, and it's frustrating. It's frustrating for us because we wish we had a lot more of that. Cause we don't want to get in the car and drive for 20 or 30 minutes to another location. But we often find that.

Kevin K (19:07.116)

that's just kind of what we have to do. So that, I mean, that's one aspect of all this is, you know, when you are in middle -class family and you are trying to balance, you know, a lot of these needs and really care for your kids and provide them with fun things to do and go to places where you can kind of relax too, it's really important to have those things nearby. So, you know, another aspect of this

I think if you're to step back a little bit, and that's all kind of like personal experience. If I were to look at like, are the things that most normal families really care about when it comes to choosing a place to live? And I've mentioned this before, but one thing that I think almost anybody listening to this podcast would have to understand is that like,

Those of us who are in our little world here are not normal. If you are a quote unquote urbanist, you are probably not normal. You probably do not have like the same value system as the vast majority of people in your city or in our country. I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing. It's just, it just is. It's just different. A lot of us put a high priority in our own life.

in living somewhere where you can walk around to some things or ride a bike to some things. And I love all that. I put a high priority in that. I wish more people did. I wish that was normative in our culture that like the idea of using your body to get around to most things in your daily life was like normal. It used to be normal in our cities. And if I were to say a little sidebar here,

one of the things that's really kind of unique about American cities and culture is that we conflate urban with big city. and by urban, mean like places where you might like walk around to things. so this is, this is different than most countries in the world where, where people small town, whether you're in a small town or a big city, most people walk around, to get around.

Kevin K (21:36.69)

And it's different from our historical legacy as well in the United States, because prior to the 1920s and the beginning of the suburban experiment or the revolution in city planning that happened at that time period, every community in our country was a walkable place. Everything that a lot of quote unquote urbanists would love was normative.

And if you don't believe me, just look at pictures and postcards from literally any community in America prior to the 1930s. And you see that they are all what we would call urban today in terms of how people actually lived. So that was our legacy and that was how our country developed for a couple of hundred years.

until we embarked on this experiment to basically destroy it all and destroy it all kind of on purpose with big money and big policy and for many decades of intentional destruction. And so we're left with this situation now where people tend to conflate like, if you mean walkable and urban, well, that's only in like the big city. And that's just not true.

that's never really been true historically. But on the ground today, that is how a lot of it feels, that you have big cities that are kind of walkable and maybe people take public transit, maybe people ride bikes. And then you have suburbs where people drive cars. And very simplistically, that's how a lot of people look at the world. And I've always been frustrated by that.

And it certainly doesn't have to be that way. But that is how a lot of people look at it. one substacker who I've talked about before here, Addison Delmastro, he does a really good job of writing about this. He kind of talks about this topic frequently on his substack, which I think is called the deleted scenes. Just the notion that small towns, as we think of them today, really are just big cities that haven't matured or

Kevin K (24:03.778)

didn't mature or grow into being bigger places, but they all have the same DNA. The little town where I went to high school, Marshall, Missouri, has this lovely courthouse square and beautiful older neighborhoods from before the 1930s. And it has the exact same DNA as like the neighborhood that I live in now. It's just that Kansas City, Missouri grew to become a big city.

Marshall, Missouri did not grow to become a big city. It kind of stagnated at a certain population and it's been more or less the same population for about a hundred years. So big cities grew and changed and a of small towns did not. And then we also had the growth of suburbia, which was a completely new way of living that was in many ways organized around needing a car to get to places. So.

So anyway, I guess that's a bit of a sidebar. It's kind of thinking about how cities are in America today. But historically, they weren't that way. So anyway, setting that aside, for most normal people in our country today, they look at the landscape and don't really think about these issues. It's just like, it is what it is. You live in America, you have a house, you have a car, you drive to places. And that is baked in to the cake.

that like that's part of the lifestyle. And so as a result, a lot of people, especially families with kids, they're not really like thinking about like urbanism or walkability as a thing necessarily for their children or for their family location. Some people do. I think there's more people that think about it now than used to. There's probably more people who think about it from the standpoint of like, it'd be cool to have like bike trails nearby.

because a lot of suburbs have done a great job of building like bike trail networks. But not many people are thinking about, you know, I want to live in a place where they have like a neighborhood main street that we can walk to with the kids. Again, I wish they would, but it's just not in the minds of most people. What is in the minds of most people, especially people who have a choice in where they want to live, not everybody has a choice, not everybody can afford to move. But for people...

Kevin K (26:29.996)

For middle class people especially who have a choice, and if you have kids, this is the reality. You're thinking about crime and safety first and foremost because you're trying to protect your children from harm. That is first and foremost in the minds of nearly every parent that I know. How do I protect them from harm? And yes, that can include, you know, there are,

can include walking and biking as a part of that, but what most people are thinking about is, I want to live somewhere where our house isn't likely to get broken into, where our car isn't likely to get stolen or carjacked, where it's less likely to run into violent crime, especially in public. Because violent crime is a reality in our society. We have a lot of it. My city is a particularly violent city.

unfortunately, and we can't ignore how prominent that is in the minds of most people who have a choice. So I always put that up there, like that's number one. If people aren't thinking about that or factoring that into, you know, why people might be leaving cities, then they're completely missing the boat. The second thing that people think about really are the quality of the schools when you're thinking about your kids. And

sure that's a loaded topic. We all know the history of public schools is fraught with a lot of different issues. But there's just simply no question that every parent is trying to get their kids into the best possible school that they can, the best one that they can afford. And by afford meaning whether it's a private school that they want to pay for or it's a public school in the place with the house that they can most afford with the best public school.

so that is a major consideration and, you know, frankly, most big cities fail in this area. Most of our big cities in the country, including my own have public school districts that are often at the bottom of the list in terms of rankings for schools in their Metro areas. you can argue with me whether you want, if you want to, about whether that's fair or not fair. It doesn't matter. All people know is.

Kevin K (28:56.65)

school, those schools bad, other schools better. And people are going to act on whatever they think is best for their kids. Because you're a really weird person, I think, if you want to experiment with your children by sending them to a school that is potentially subpar. So again, there are a lot of factors involved with why schools are better or not.

You know, in our city, we happen to have a unique network of charter schools that was started 20, 25 years ago. And so charter schools are public schools, but they each operate as their own independent school district, essentially. And our kids go to a charter school in the city that is an excellent school with some of the best academic ratings in the state of Missouri.

really great school. a foreign, it's a unique foreign language immersion school and we really like it. We're very, happy with it and we have many friends who have had their kids there and have their kids there and so it's kind of a unique situation. That was an incredible enticement. I will tell you before we had charter schools in the city as a choice, people as soon as they had it, as soon as their kids hit like elementary school age, they were out of here.

they were moving to the suburbs. And now that we have a whole selection of charter schools as an option where people don't have to pay, we have many, many more families that are choosing to stay in the city and keeping their kids in those schools. So that's an encouraging thing. That's generally been a good thing. But a lot of cities don't have that choice. A lot of parents don't have that choice.

When we lived in Savannah, Georgia, we didn't really have that choice. think there were two charter schools in the city of Savannah and they were both just unbelievably oversubscribed and very, very difficult to get into. And again, you have to ask yourself as a parent, you know, are you going to just like play a lottery game with your kid's future? And most parents are not. They're not going to if they have a choice. Again, many parents don't have a choice, but if you do have a choice,

Kevin K (31:20.694)

you're just not gonna play that game. And you'll make whatever sacrifice you need to for your kids, if it means moving, if it means moving to somewhere that's more expensive, whatever you have to do for your kids' future. So that's a big deal. The other aspect of schools, things we can't, the discussion we can't avoid, although I think a lot of people would love to avoid it, is that there is still a tremendous hangover from the COVID policies. And the schools that were closed,

the longest during COVID were almost all schools in major cities and especially schools in large school districts in inner cities. And there are many, many parents who have just not forgotten that and have not let go of it and will not let go of it. I think obviously there was plenty of evidence that

people left, a lot of people left those districts during the COVID era so they could be somewhere where their kids could be in school. And I would suspect that there is a hangover from that for a lot of people still looking to get out who are still very angry about what happened during that era, kept keeping their kids out of school for a year, some places, two years. And they want to be somewhere where they know that's not going to happen.

again or where they suspect that won't happen again. that's another aspect of the school situation that in the current era is a big deal. So again, top of the list when you have kids, crime and safety, and schools. I think the third thing after that is cost of living. And this is where the affordability discussion comes in.

You know, this has everything to do with housing affordability primarily, but it also has a little bit to do with taxes and overall cost of living. You know, I live in a city where our city has an income tax, a 1 % income tax. It's the only city in our metro area that has that. And so I get it when people don't want to be part of that.

Kevin K (33:41.068)

when they say to themselves, well, I can live somewhere else in this Metro and not pay an income tax. I can be in a better rated school district and I'm going to have lower crime. I mean, honestly, that's the logical choice. Who wouldn't? You really have to be a weirdo or like me to say we want to like live in the city when those are your basic choices. And it's funny that any of these things get framed otherwise.

Like that is the normal rational choice to make is to live somewhere that's less expensive where you get more for your money that is safer for you and your kids. So that's just the hard truth for how all these things work out that a lot of American big cities fail in those key areas compared to their suburbs. And then unfortunately what's happened over the years

is that the primary political constituencies have adjusted to all this to kind of reflect their populations. big cities tend to focus on policies that are the people who are left in those cities who like them, wealthy people, childless people, and oftentimes people who don't have a choice to move somewhere else. And then suburban cities tend to keep reinforcing and focusing on

like families and kids, oftentimes to the exclusion of attracting younger people and single people and childless people too. So they have that blind spot in a lot of suburban areas. And so there's that issue as well. I think in the minds of a lot of city and urban policymakers, what's really great for kids is just not top of mind. And so it kind of becomes like a self -licking ice cream cone.

in the policy world. And it's just an unfortunate side effect of where we are. So what can cities do? What can urban areas or major cities do about all this? Honestly, that's always a question. I've just never been the kind of person that I am satisfied with stating a problem and not trying to give.

Kevin K (36:03.458)

some concrete ideas on like what to do, what else could be done. And so I'll take a shot at a few things here. I mean, I think a lot of this is kind of going to logically follow from the other part of the conversation. But first and foremost, cities need to be serious, and I mean really, really serious about public safety and crime. And too many cities just are not. My city is not.

just flat out not serious about it right now. We have one of the worst murder rates and crime rates in the country. There is no sense of urgency on this issue from our leadership at all. There are people who care. There are people who are trying to do things. But there's no sense of urgency related to

How do we deal with this immediately and today? It's mostly like about like longer term solutions. And I'm, you know, long, I'm all for the longer term solutions. Those are great. But if you don't deal with things immediately, then you lose people. People just leave and they get fed up and they're going to move on. So if your city is in that category that it's not really serious about crime and safety, you're going to lose people and you're especially lose middle -class families with kids. That's just part of the reality.

Another thing that cities can do is try to find ways to support innovation in education. I'm going to write about this more at a future date here, but I've had long had some thoughts about ways that public school districts, especially really large ones, could be reformed. And I think there's a lot of reform needed in public school administration and education.

And if you are a logical person, you would start with the ones that are the most underperforming. And we are fortunate here in Kansas City, Missouri, that we have more choices than most with charter schools, with private schools, and a public school district. But our public school district needs to be better. There's just no other way to say it. It's got to be better. And we've got to find ways to just innovate much more quickly.

Kevin K (38:28.41)

and in more thoughtful ways than what we're doing right now in education. Or again, people will leave. It's just that simple. If the schools suck, people are going to move somewhere else. So the third area, not really all that surprising, but when we talk about cost of living is cities need to get really serious about trying to be affordable with, and to try to make their housing as affordable as possible.

I've stated this here before in this podcast, but as a refresher, I don't think that means like we need to build capital A affordable housing. That is just generally not as, that's not what I'm talking about. We're talking about housing for middle -class people generally that have kids. The path to affordability there is to do what a lot of cities have started to do, which is really reform their codes and processes.

to actually make it easier to produce new housing and produce it at scale. So whether you're talking about single family houses, townhouses, duplexes, missing middle housing, whatever it is, most cities have become really, really difficult to work in to produce new housing. And their suburban counterparts are quite easy to work in.

For somebody like me, I don't like the housing that is being produced in most of our suburbs. The standard suburban format, industrially spit out house in community. That doesn't appeal to me. But it sure would be nice if our city, if we could produce housing at the pace and ease at which it happens in a lot of suburban places. So that is something that we're seeing progress in.

We're starting to see reform in a lot of cities, but we've got a long, long ways to go to get that better. And obviously the last thing, I think this is a little more challenging, it's probably more from an entrepreneurial standpoint, but we really need more amenities for kids and families in urban places. Like if you really care about having and retaining kids and families in urban places, they've got to have those.

Kevin K (40:52.546)

amenities that families come to expect nowadays. You know, this isn't this isn't 1950 anymore where a lot of places just didn't have amenities. Now there's an expectation and if people don't have it, they're going to go where where those expectations are being met. So, you know, neighborhoods should have pools. They should have swimming pools. They should have play areas and playgrounds and park spaces.

It would be nice if there were more businesses that were more welcoming to families and kids and more like family focused businesses. So those can't be mandated. I'm not saying like those can be mandated from the top down, but it would be smart for people who care about those things to encourage them, try to create them. So I'll just like sum up here by saying that

I think the frustrating part here, and I think probably a lot of you may feel this way as well, is that a lot of our cities could be absolutely amazing for families and for kids. And they can be amazing in ways that our suburban communities cannot be and may never be able to be. By having the freedom of movement

on foot or bicycle and the free, ability to explore and be independent in a really well functioning place that was historically available for kids to be able to like actually walk to a neighborhood school or a neighborhood park or a pool. And there's just an awful lot of suburban communities that will never ever have that.

because of the built pattern that exists, which makes it virtually impossible without like radical change. The built, the physical DNA of a lot of cities is ideal for incorporating all that. But we have an awful lot of policy problems, administrative problems, and just intransigent thinking that is holding

Kevin K (43:19.57)

us back and holding our cities back. time marches on. If you are a parent and you live in a city and you haven't thought about like going somewhere else where a lot of that could be easier, then you're probably unique in that regard. I've thought about it. My wife and I have thought about it. We have had discussions about, know, we are city people. There's a lot we love about the city.

But might it just make more sense for us to live in one of the suburbs in the area? And there's a list of things we just really wouldn't have to think about or worry about very much. And we have never pulled the trigger on that. I don't know if we ever will. We really love our neighbors and our community. And we love the school that our kids are in, which really helps. That's a major.

major factor that would keep us in the city. But the other things are a real source of frustration. We absolutely worry about the crime and safety issues. They are real and extremely concerning for us. We do get frustrated with the cost of living. That is just, it's just more expensive to live in the city and we have fewer amenities.

I mean, that's just the reality. you know, is that the end of the world? No, it's not the end of the world. And we're in a pretty fortunate position compared to a lot of people. But my point is that I think that many, families, the majority of families think about things this way. They're not thinking about, boy, it would be cool if our kids could walk somewhere, you walk down the street to the neighborhood ice cream shop.

and live in sort of an urbanist paradise. You're not thinking about that. You're thinking about very basic things like the safety of your children, the education they're going to get, and how much things are costing you. And that's the part of the discussion that if we want to be honest and if we really want to make things better and fix things, we have to be aware of these and have real frank discussions about.

Kevin K (45:48.332)

That's what I have for you today. This is Kevin. Thanks again for listening to the Messy City Podcast. And please hit that like or follow button and leave me a review if you can. Send me a note. Let me know what you think. Leave a message on the Substack page. Thanks everybody. Talk to you later. Bye.

We travel to the beautiful Pacific Northwest this week to talk with architect Cary Westerbeck. Cary lives and works in Bothell, Washington, a northern suburb of Seattle. He traces his path from being a bicycle mechanic to architect, developer and even Planning Commission member.

One of the really cool things about this episode is hearing Cary take me step by step through his process to build the Fir Street Lofts. This size of project, 3 apartments and one retail space, is the kind of project that should be within reach of many aspiring developers. Cary talks about how he conceived it, designed it, financed it, and general contracted it as well. If I could construct a curriculum for architects, I’d have them all listen to this episode to learn how much more is possible than just being a hired gun for others.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Transcript:

Kevin K (00:01.132)

Welcome back to the Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. This week we're off to the Pacific Northwest to talk with another small scale developer and urbanist kind of guy who's done some really cool work and who I haven't really had a chance to talk to a lot in person, but our paths cross all the time, including when this one drops, my most recent guest will have been Jim Hyde from the Small Scale Developer Forums and

And my guest today, Kerry Westerbeck, has been very involved in the Small Scale Developer Forum. there's kind of a fun alignment there that I'm looking forward to talking about. But anyway, Kerry, welcome to the podcast. It's great to see you.

Cary (00:43.968)

Thank you, Kevin. Nice to be invited. Great to be here.

Kevin K (00:46.786)

Well, again, it's a situation where we just know so many overlapping people. It makes it feel like the world is really small.

Cary (00:53.226)

Indeed.

It really does. There's so many connections, whether it's social media or blogs or podcasts. Like, hey, I know that person and they know that person and all these points begin to overlap. It's fun.

Kevin K (01:08.952)

Yeah, and I know there's more than like 20 people doing small scale development in the whole country, but for whatever reason that like circle we travel, and it of feels like there's like 20. So I don't know.

Cary (01:17.162)

Yeah.

Cary (01:20.884)

No, it's true. It's the same bunch of us kind of keep getting hit up. Maybe we're the ones who'll enjoy talking about it. Others are just doing it and being quiet. I don't know.

Kevin K (01:29.816)

Could be, could be. There's a whole lot of people who just, you know, proceed on in the background and do really cool stuff. So anyway, Carrie is in the Seattle Metro area and is doing some really neat stuff up there and has for a long time. And I wanted to talk obviously about some of the projects you've been doing, but you also have a really interesting background getting into this.

Cary (01:36.212)

That's right.

Kevin K (01:56.236)

that our mutual friend, John Anderson, kind of clued us into. And I wonder if you want to start by talking a little bit about like your own journey to being where you are now. I think we're probably around the same age, ballpark. so, yeah. And so, you know, by the time you hit our age, you've probably had two or three different lives, it feels like, or certainly professional lives. And there's lot of different paths that people take. So let's talk a bit about where you started out.

Cary (02:03.541)

Yeah.

Cary (02:09.865)

early 50s.

Cary (02:17.214)

Yes. Yes.

Cary (02:25.974)

Sure, no, I think that's a really good way putting it. I have a lot of friends who are five to 10 years older and some of them didn't know me when I was younger. I do joke, I've had many lives, I've lived many lives because I was a bicycle mechanic for much of the 90s before I finished my undergrad degree and then went later and got a master's in architecture and became an architect 20 years ago. So I...

30 something years ago, I spent six months in the Virgin Islands working as a cook when I was just casting about traveling. So these newer friends, yeah, was great. Yeah, on St. John, US Virgin Islands at Eco Resort. And so yeah, I've had these interesting paths and I worked for Seattle Public Utilities after my undergrad degree before I got my architecture degree. This is in the late 90s and decided

Kevin K (03:01.964)

That's cool. That must have been a... I think we could do a whole podcast probably just on that experience.

Cary (03:23.828)

At the time, my policy wasn't too thrilling to me, but I did some policy work for a while around Seattle Public Utilities work. I was a project manager for a watershed action plan. anyway, my route to where I'm at today, yeah, I was doing that. I've been actively involved in the outdoors here in the Northwest, biking and hiking and backpacking and stuff. But I've always been intrigued with architecture.

Even when I was younger, I thought I'd go be an architect when I was in high school. And then I kind of got into a little more carefree lifestyle in my late teens, early twenties, and really didn't apply myself very well when I was in community college and when my friends were off at the universities and stuff. So I had kind of a more circuitous route to getting married in my mid twenties and then deciding to finish my undergrad degree, doing that policy work, Seattle Public Utilities in the late nineties, and then deciding.

hey, I've got kind of got my life together more. I'm better at studying and applying myself. I'm going to go pursue that architecture degree. So I did do that at the University of Washington from 2001 to 2004. And that's how I got my start as an architect in 2004. I've always been in the Seattle area. I was born in Tacoma, just south of Seattle. And I grew up actually one town over from where I am today in Bothell, Washington. I grew up in Woodinville, Washington next door.

So I've stayed local, love the Northwest. So I became an architect and like many of us, became an intern at a good local firm in 2004. And we were just working as fast as we could as architects with that firm, which is still around today until many of us got, most of us got laid off one by one in 2008, 2009. And as we all who live through that, know that story, I think something like 40,

Kevin K (05:19.468)

Well, nope. Still have the scars.

Cary (05:21.782)

Yeah, you know, yeah, exactly. 40, 50 % of the architects, I think, in the country got laid off within a few months, something like something crazy like that. Yeah. So I'd only had five years experience at that point, but had done all kinds of work and been working a lot. So I had enough to then quickly get licensed within a year or so. And I was in the process of beginning my own firm because my wife's a librarian and a teacher. so

Kevin K (05:29.154)

Yeah, it was brutal.

Cary (05:51.03)

firms didn't have work in 2009 or so, but these teachers are still employed. And so a couple of them, we want to do an addition, we want to do a deck, whatever. I started a small firm kind of out of necessity to make a living. And that actually worked pretty well. So I was actually doing okay during the recession, starting a small firm and learning how to do contracts and all kinds of things.

But all along, we started owning houses. My wife and I bought our first house in 1997 prior to my becoming an architect. And my dad had always been kind of a frustrated engineer architect. we actually lived in a couple of architecturally significant houses growing up. So I was sort of steeped in design. so along with that, he was always remodeling our houses. So I kind of had this DIY spirit. And my brother was, at that time, a

professional contractor and general contractor. He's now a professional architectural photographer. Interestingly enough, he shoots my work. So immediately we would remodel each house we own. We had a few houses through the year before the projects we have now that we own now. And so I wasn't afraid to put on the tool belt and learn how to do things. So I say that because we were starting to look at getting into design build when I was at the firm I worked at, Johnston Architects.

And I actually built out the offices when we moved offices in 2007 or so. I was the lead on that and literally cutting the wood and building the desks and all kinds of things like that. Cause I had experienced doing that and brought remodeling houses. And about that time I learned about Jonathan Siegel down in San Diego. Most people know who he is these days and this line of work. And one of the guys in the office had gone to one of his in -person.

seminars where we taught people how to be architect as developer. I thought, hey, I've always been interested in design build and building my own projects, self -initiated work, but I didn't really understand. You could just decide you're going to be your own client. This is an electrifying idea.

Cary (07:58.932)

So it was planted. didn't do anything about it for a while, but I thought, okay, well, I'll keep remodeling my houses and doing work for clients. And got a lot of on the ground construction administration, construction observation work, doing projects, not only when I was working at Johnston for that five years, but then later on my own being very hands -on, both designing the projects and walking clients through those projects. So that gave me a pretty good feel for working side -by -side with general contractors. And I could be comfortable with that.

So I started getting this bug that I wanted to self -initiate projects and become the architect as developer, you know, idea person like Jonathan Siegel. And I was finding out about others at that time in New York and other places. And so I took the online course by, what was it, 2014 or so that Jonathan Siegel offered online. He decided it was too much work to do tours and keep speaking. So that...

Kevin K (08:55.17)

He was probably having too much fun in San Diego too.

Cary (08:58.3)

Exactly. know, by then he'd already had a lot of good projects under his belt. I think a lot of us saw his stuff winning awards and everything. So he would become pretty high profile. So that course was extremely empowering and convinced me that, I've got the skill set and he, you know, is very empowering in that way. You can go do this and you've got the skills and you've got the, you know, the intelligence and everything. And he was right. So that led to us.

Buying an existing triplex in the downtown core. I'm actually in that triplex right now. And with some extra land on it. And that was 2014. So we learned how to be, had tenants already, so we remodeled some of the units over time. learned how to be landlords.

We even sold our house nearby and moved into one of the units of our family of four, my wife, myself, our two daughters who were younger at the time. And we lived in the upper floor of that existing triplex that we bought in 2014 while I designed and planned a new building for the front yard.

Kevin K (10:06.776)

So how big, just describe the units in that triplex. How big a space were you looking at?

Cary (10:12.95)

Yeah. So the triplex was actually, its origin is, it was a barn built in 1913 by one of the early families, that kind of a founding family, the Erickson family of the city of Bothell. And it was a barn where they raised rabbits, a rabbit hutch. And it's 30 feet by 40 feet, two stories, with the gabled roof. Like literally just like the diagram of a gabled house, basically that children draw.

And it had two units, has two units in the downstairs and one unit upstairs. And then I've carved out a little office out of a shared foyer on the upstairs that I remodeled into my office where I'm sitting now. And we will replace this eventually with a building I'm working on what it will be replaced with.

Kevin K (11:02.552)

So you were in basically 1 ,200 square feet with the four of you then. A couple of little kids.

Cary (11:05.386)

Yep, correct, actually. Including my office. what I'd carved out from my conference room, so just a separate door and a deadlock, deadbolt stuff that I use now. We didn't use it at the time when the family was living in the hall upstairs. My wife's in my bedroom was the small conference room, which I've never really used in conference room, but it worked out great.

Kevin K (11:28.856)

So did that, at the time, that feel like a bit of a sacrifice, kind of moving into that space? Yeah.

Cary (11:33.29)

Yes. Yeah. was, so we've remodeled it. was kind of nice and shiny and new and, know, certainly an old building, but we made it look pretty nice and permitted all the work. I moved a bunch of walls around and built new bathrooms and all kinds of stuff. And we were over here with, with friends kind of looking at it one day after we got the final sign off. And I thought we should move in here and save money so we can build the new building soon. And I thought my wife's, my wife's a gamer. She's pretty flexible.

And I thought, well, I'll wait day or two and see what she thinks. So I proposed the idea a couple of days later, and we'd been living in a nearby town next door, Kenmore, for 11 years, had a quarter acre lot, and a mid -century house. I'd remodeled every square foot. It had pretty good equity in it, and it could help us with the future project. And so I proposed the idea, let's move in, let's save money. We will travel little more for a few years, and she loved it. So that's what we did six months later.

And so yeah, we kind of made a sacrifice about three and a half years we lived in that little 1200 square feet. But the cool thing, you know, cause I'm an urbanist too, this is a small little downtown. We're right in the middle of downtown. City Hall is a block away. They're building multifamily all around us. Most of it's built now. There was more going up, but at the time there was only one out of about 10 buildings that had been built in that last 10 years. So,

Kevin K (12:31.596)

Fantastic.

Cary (12:55.39)

We really wanted to, I wanted to walk my talk and the family was into it too and be in a walkable place where we could drive less and we were in my transit and bicycling and stuff. So we've really been doing that. And we had that, you know, immediately overnight. So it was a, it was an adjustment, but it was really been fun.

Kevin K (13:13.176)

So by way of context, what was the local real estate market like when you bought this place in 2014?

Cary (13:18.966)

So at the time, know, it always seems expensive at the time, right? Never, it's so much worse than it used to be. Well, it seems downright quaint and affordable now looking back on 2014. It was a very hot market. We got a great price when we sold our house and we had a really good price on the Triplex because the family owned this old building kind of, it was one of many and it was very run down and they just wanted to get rid of it. So we got a great deal. It's more than double what we paid for it. So yay for us, right?

but it all felt like a stretch at the time. I honestly don't know that we could get it today. not because of competition, but because of the cost of land and, and, properties down here now. a key factor there was, because of being an architect and into local planning issues. And, and, we lived in the town next door, Kenmore, which does some overlapping planning, at the county level and so forth with, with the city of Bothell where I'm at now.

Bothell had a master plan and a new downtown code and zoning code and things like that. There was sort of a hybrid for the downtown, sort of a hybrid form based code that I was well aware of had been written and put in place. It was kind of a sleepy place. A lot of people didn't know. So I was well aware that this town was going to rapidly change and grow because they had set the table for it. So for once I got in at kind of at the right time, but it was a stretch.

Kevin K (14:47.606)

Yeah, right. So at some point you decided to take a closer look at that vacant lot next to you. And was that the next project you undertook or was there anything else after that?

Cary (15:00.938)

Yeah. So we actually, I guess we would call this the covered land play because with the triplex, the triplex lot here, the city had actually bought about four feet because right after we moved in, they rebuilt streets and sidewalks fringes and really made these beautiful deluxe streets, replaced all the infrastructure, daily at a creek across the street. did millions and millions of tens of millions of dollars worth of downtown improvements as part of this plan.

But otherwise, the triplex came on a lot that was 6 ,750 square feet. And so we already had the land as part of the triplex property. So when I eventually designed and built the building that I'd become known for, I built it in the front yard. already had the land. I short -platted it as part of the building permit. And I short -platted.

because otherwise the old building rides with the new building on the financing. And that would sort of drag it down. So I realized I needed to split the lot and create a brand new fresh lot that would give me some equity because there would be value given to that lot. And at the same time, have the finances completely separate from the old triplex that we owned on the lot. So I turned it from one lot into two. And I would do that over and over if I could.

Kevin K (16:22.336)

Interesting. Yeah, and I

Yeah, so why do you say that? was the advantage of that from your perspective?

Cary (16:32.054)

You basically, give yourself a free lot and in small development, as you and probably many know, the land basis or the cost of land or getting a chunk of land to build on is one of the most difficult hurdles for small operators. Bigger developers can often do a purchase and sale and wait until they entitle a project to pay their five or 10 or 15 million for their property. That's how all the bigger projects are done around here.

But small mom and pop sellers for the size of lots, I'm usually looking at five, six, seven thousand feet, whatever. They just want cash upfront. so you kind of have to commit. So to get a property that already has a building that can sort of help offset the costs, in our case, the mortgage with renters, while you split the lot, you're effectively giving yourself a new tax lot.

at very little cost. Just really the cost of splitting that lot is the cause of any taxes you eventually start paying on the property tax.

Kevin K (17:39.669)

So, what would a like that cost in Bothell by way of comparison, just if you found a vacant lot in a neighborhood?

Cary (17:45.59)

Yeah. So at the time, that lot, is only the building I built is on a lot that's just about 2 ,600 square feet, 2 ,625, very small. There's no minimum lot size in our downtown, fortunately, like there is other places. The valuation five years ago was 400 ,000. It's probably a little bit more than that now. So it's not inexpensive land down here. We're doing a project now that broke ground for a four unit just a few blocks away from here. So it's a good comparison.

Kevin K (18:08.141)

Yeah.

Cary (18:14.358)

I'm working on it with two other partners. doing four townhouses. We wanted it to be more, but that's another story I can talk about later. And that lot is 5 ,400 square feet, I believe it is. And it was $640 ,000. And lots have sold in the two years since become even more expensive per square foot. So, yeah.

Kevin K (18:42.872)

That's That's amazing. My Midwestern brain has a hard time getting around those numbers.

Cary (18:47.772)

yeah. When I look on the social media groups I'm part of, the Neighborhood Development Group that John Anderson started, and Income Mill Development Alliance and others, Kansas, where you are, and of course, Grand Ure in the city, where property probably costs a little bit more. And then in the South and the Midwest, my jaw drops when I see what you guys can get land for and lots for.

Kevin K (19:13.196)

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a different market in lot of ways. So let's talk about the project you built there, which I've seen pictures of. I haven't seen it in person, but it's a really cool project. It's kind of in many ways like the classic example of a small mixed use project that we talk about in a hundred different seminars that you were actually able to execute. So I'm curious about like why you chose that particular kind of project and some of the pros and cons of doing that.

Cary (19:15.583)

It is. It is.

Cary (19:42.26)

Yeah, no, I love to talk about that. learned so many lessons, but really fundamental to this was meeting John Anderson after I did the Jonathan Siegel course. I really had a lot more I needed to learn about sort of scrappy on the ground, get things done, part of the small development. And John Anderson, I met just at the perfect time.

and incremental development alliance was young then. I actually went down to Texas and took one of their boot camps in 2016. But he taught me about the, for a first project, don't get too crazy. Do three stories you can do with like a single stair. I already knew about that. Single stair is hot now, but at the time it was okay. We'll keep it three stories or less, single stair. International building code allows that. And design it around what can be allowed with an FHA 203B loan.

B or C, can't remember. The ones that are renovation loan. But this is the vanilla FHA home loan that millions of Americans have gotten to buy anything one to four units. So if you're going to buy your first house, this is that loan. The unique thing is, unlike most mortgages, you can do one to four units. So that's not unusual. But they allow up to 49 % commercial. There's no other.

vanilla mortgage that allows that. And I was really interested in doing mixed use because I had a corner lot in downtown. And I just felt as an urbanist who wanted to place make and create places for people that this should be a corner shop, commercial shop. So I had my sort of template then. All right, I'm gonna do four units. Originally I was gonna redevelop the entire lot all at once. And I realized that was.

biting off more than I wanted to chew and I didn't really want to get rid of a cash flowing triplex because this is my first project. So I thought, well, this is perfect. I'll split the lot. I'll do a single stair FHA compliant building that's not going to get me out of my ski tips. This won't be built much differently than a single family home, which I had a lot of experience with, like commercial. And I'll general contract it myself.

Cary (22:05.242)

And I don't get too fancy, it's a simple shape. And that was kind of the premise. And what I call it is a well -detailed simple box. But that was the groundwork for the project. To do that, and I was allowed to work on it for a few years, kind of refining and working on it. But during my spare time.

Kevin K (22:28.504)

Let's talk about a couple aspects of it, the FHA 203B thing, know, not everybody knows about all that. Did you have a hard time like finding a banker or bankers who understood, you know, financing it this way?

Cary (22:33.833)

Mm

Cary (22:41.686)

Yes and no. So most mortgage folks I talked to knew about it. Many of them were unwilling to originate them. I don't know if there just wasn't as much fat in it for them or what. The original, when I was finishing the project in late 2019, just prior to the pandemic, the mortgage broker I was working with at the time had done a great job for me doing a refi and a home equity loan or a

sorry, HELOC on the Triplex so I could use the Triplex as a sort of cash machine, which is another small developer ploy. He'd been really spectacular for me, really experienced. But he was very reluctant and quite frankly unwilling to originate an FHA loan because I suspect he wasn't going to get paid as well. So he brought me a commercial loan just as the pandemic was beginning and it was really

awful terms and we had to bring a lot of money to the table. And so I quickly had to go find another experienced mortgage person. a lot of them will say they're interested and then you get into it and they try and deter you from doing one, the FHA. So that's information that I should share.

Kevin K (23:56.418)

So you really have to kind of push through. I think John has talked about this before. It's almost like you have to know more about some of these programs, or know as much as your banker does, or your lender.

Cary (23:58.571)

Yes.

Cary (24:04.032)

Yes.

Yeah, John makes that point. I completely agree. I downloaded the 600 page, whatever it was, manual on HUD lending that he recommended. Granted, just not to scare everyone, you're not going to read the whole thing. You're going to skim it for certain sections. so, yeah, I would quite literally call these mortgage brokers up, or lenders, and have to tell them they were allowed to make this loan. And this is why. And here's the terms. And so it's so true.

I got a little disgusted at certain points that I was extricating with people on their own business. Yeah, but I did find this guy who was incredible. He was basically ready to retire, but he was just having fun, still doing things. And he found the pandemic loaning to be really tough, but also a challenge. So lucky for me. And I paid a lot of extra interest. That was the only thing in my project that went.

Rye as it were the the designing the permitting the construction. I want really smoothly it was throughout 2019 Getting the final loan mortgage that FHA mortgage to take out the construction loan Which was high interest because I was a new developer was the only really challenging and expensive part of the whole project

Kevin K (25:21.194)

Interesting. what would that product, I guess talk us through if you did the construction loan, like what sort of percentage equity did you have to have to do that? Or how did you finance it? then when you do the permanent financing, how did that convert?

Cary (25:29.813)

Yeah.

Cary (25:37.206)

Yeah, so I was a little unusual in that I did talk to multiple banks. I'll cut to the chase. I got a hard money loan from a small two -person LLC that I was put in touch with from my mortgage guy at the time. And they loved me, these lenders. It was 12%. Doesn't sound quite as bad today, but at the time it was twice what banks were lending for construction loans, so it was expensive. But it was easy and it was fast and draws were

were painless and they trusted me. They visited the site once and completely believed in me and the money was, you know, we did all the paperwork. They had a first position and all the normal stuff a mortgage company would do paperwork wise. was just not fly by night. But because it took extra five or so months at the end to get the takeout mortgage, the final mortgage, that FHA mortgage, I paid something like $125 ,000 in extra interest. So that was painful.

I did that but I had talked to two different kinds of banks and this is the kind of information I love to share with people. I did have banks that were interested in loaning on the building. One type of bank was the one type of loan I should say is banks who are wanted to loan to myself and my wife as a husband and wife entity building basically a house. One to four units they just kind of saw it as a home loan basically. They don't care if you do four units.

And though they were wary of the commercial part, for fair warning, they were like, we don't really loan on commercial. So we hadn't really sort of do that because we weren't offered the loan in the end. so they actually they did offer us a loan. was much it was several hundred thousand less than we needed. Ironically, it was because I had spent a fair amount of time of my own office time working on my project. I didn't make as much money for the prior tax year. So I kind of

was stung by the fact that I was putting my energies into my own building, doing the construction drawings and managing the design. I looked much better on paper for the prior tax year and they were like, well, what happened here? You you you dropped like, well, I was, you know, giving myself as sweat equity as it were, as an architect. And there's value in those drawings, but they don't care about that. They want your tax return. we couldn't borrow enough money.

Cary (28:01.742)

to with a bank that wanted to loan us the money as a private home project. So they're out of the picture. We would have had to bring too much money to the table ourselves. I also talked to a commercial lender. They liked it. They wanted to loan the full amount, but they wanted a guarantor. Not unusual. I did not have a guarantor. So we probably could have used a family member, but we didn't want them to have

power or decision -making power on the project. Because they're the person I'm thinking of, they're in real estate as well. And we thought, well, we want to do our own thing. So we eschewed that and went hard money. So I didn't go a traditional route there. But I also learned that it's not unusual for those of us doing it for the first time to seek out private money or hard money like this. Yeah.

Kevin K (28:55.638)

Interesting. What was the total size of the project? What cost?

Cary (29:01.11)

Yeah, like the stats. Okay, yeah, the the total cost we borrowed 1 .3 million. It cost about 1 .5 in hard cost construction costs total 1 .5 million with with soft costs. No, excuse me. I apologize.

trying to recall here, hard cost for closer to, I think it was closer to the original 1 .3 million. And with soft costs, we were at about 1 .5 million. And the total value of the project in the end at the lower end was about 1 .8 million, putting a lower kind of lower end price on the value of the land. So yeah, was a, you know, so all in, you know, if you're around about a $1 .5 million project.

Kevin K (29:52.672)

Interesting. And then were you as the architect able to pay yourself a fee for that and for the construction management?

Cary (29:59.99)

Yes, I love to talk about that. So I didn't pay myself for construction management per se, but what I did was this project took a lot of planning. And this is the kind of thing I love to share with other architects doing this. I had learned from Jared Devalle back in 2011. He was one of the other people I learned about the architect as developer model when I went to an architecture conference in 2011. And I was intrigued with his

I think his company was called Alloy working in like Dumbo and New York City. And he had expressed how you have these different companies, you own them all, but they're arms length transactions. So you have your development. And in my case, the development, the building is called Fur Street Flats, because the 183rd street out in front of my building was originally called Fur Street, like the tree, Douglas Fur. So it's called Fur Street Flats. And that was one LLC.

And then I had my established architecture firm, Westerberg Architecture. And then I also became a licensed general contractor. And that was my firm for that, Shelter Lab. And so they had arms length transactions with each other. So First Street Flats had a written agreement to provide architectural services. Westerberg Architecture would provide architectural services to First Street Flats.

Now granted, that money is just being shuffled between my different business accounts. And I had to have business accounts and you go to the bank and you get a business account and you have to show them your LLC agreement and your state certificate and all that. But yes, so that's a long -winded way of saying, Westerbrook Architecture got paid by First Street Flats a fee to design the project. What happened then was I made sure that I continued to give myself a paycheck as I acted as the journal contractor for a year building the building.

My architecture firm was giving me a regular salary, even though I was not doing architecture work. This was so that I paycheck consistency that the mortgagers want to see when you're done with the project. So you don't have a, they want two years. So I just had continuity there. So I used that fee. Once I got my loan, First Street Flats paid Westerbrack architecture for the design. And I used that money to live on just basically as my paycheck that I would have been earning as an architect. I just.

Cary (32:22.358)

prepaid it and drew on it as I built the project. So that essentially covered me to work as a general contractor and I did not pay myself a general contractor fee or a developer fee. I considered it all basically I get to keep the building because I'm not selling the building. I get to keep the building and that's my that's my equity stake and my payment. So it's a little unusual but I learned all that from these various people I studied.

Kevin K (32:45.496)

Interesting. Yeah.

Kevin K (32:52.536)

Well, I mean, it's interesting because obviously for any architects in the audience to think about getting into development, that's just an aspect of it, which is paying yourself, covering your overhead during that process, the design process and construction process. I mean, it's pretty cool that you also did the construction management. There's probably a lot of architects who wouldn't do that.

Cary (33:02.838)

key.

Cary (33:14.474)

Yeah. Yeah, that's really a critical thing to understand going in. Are you comfortable being your own general contractor or not? And then if you're not, and you're going to have someone do it, which is not uncommon, you're going to pay a little more. It's smart for lot of people though, because there's so many pitfalls in construction if you're not skilled at it. I had my snafus here and there, but I handled them.

they're going to happen whether you're building it or not yourself or not.

Kevin K (33:48.024)

So when you get this project complete from the construction standpoint, how did it go from a leasing standpoint?

Cary (33:54.55)

so I'll add one more thing that I hadn't shared is, my family designed the entire third floor, top floor for our family to live in. we designed it custom for ourselves. It's not like super fancy, but it's each floor has 10 foot ceilings. There's a lot of glazing. there's a couple of exposed steel beams. It's got the top floor has three bedrooms, two baths, a nice kind of big great room.

People really like the space. It's nicely proportioned. So we were building a home for ourselves as well. So we are living. And that's another thing FHA loan requires. It requires the owner, owner occupancy for the FHA 203B. And that was one of the things I hadn't mentioned. And that's very different from my commercial investment property, where you were actually not allowed to live in the building. It's completely different. They literally disallow it. So that's another reason that FHA loan is unique. But anyway, lease up was

Kevin K (34:31.063)

Interesting.

Cary (34:49.078)

almost effortless. That's not the right word, but we really only had a couple units. So my mom lives in the one bedroom. We have a one bedroom, a two bedroom, and we live in a three bedroom. And then we have the commercial space on the ground floor. October, two months before we got our certificate of occupancy, October of 2019, I started to kind of just.

getting word of mouth out that I had this small commercial space about 650 square feet on the corner available. People saw it too, and it's a very visible corner. So there was already a lot of buzz. And I had a ton of interest. So right away, a broker actually, a very busy broker in town brought me a barbershop. And I actually had gotten my haircut from one of the two owners that wanted to start this barbershop. And I thought, well, they're a good tenant. It's idea was better than the other offers that I'd had.

And so we quickly worked out a you know, broker -ridden lease a couple months prior. I helped them do their, few drawings they needed to submit to the city for a small TI build out. And so that went very quickly. And I always say this, and I say this to my friends in city council, and I'm on planning commission as well. This is really important to know. There aren't enough small spaces in my town and around here, especially these newer...

These younger West Coast cities, they don't have the plethora of old buildings with small affordable spaces. People are always looking for small spaces. I could have leased that 650 square feet out a dozen times over. Whereas when they're building these bigger buildings, these five over ones in town, which we have a lot of, they're sort of a lost leader where they've got the retail that's hard to fill. It gets filled here because we're a busy place on the edge of Seattle, but they're 3 ,000, 4 ,000, 5 ,000 square feet. They take a big...

you know, national or at least a very successful local business to fill those. So there aren't nearly enough of these small ones. So leasing that commercial space was really easy. It went very quickly. And I had mom for the apartment. And then we were advertising on Craigslist at apartments .com, maybe one of the two other places for the two bedroom, which again was filled within a week or two, probably a couple of weeks. I showed it three or four times and it was snapped up. And then we were done.

Kevin K (37:04.728)

Yeah, that's great.

Cary (37:08.406)

And we had to fill our unit because we were moving out of the old triplex, but it also found a newly married couple who started a family right away and they were there for the first few years throughout the pandemic. So we had everything filled in no time.

Kevin K (37:09.218)

Yeah.

Kevin K (37:26.488)

That's ideal in many respects.

Cary (37:30.452)

It is, I mean, I really feel like I should knock on wood or something that went so well. And we've stayed full ever since. I've had a lot of people who've asked me, because the building is popular, the new building's popular, people, get compliments on it still all the time. And people are always asking if there are units available. So I'm flattered, but I, there's been no turnover.

Kevin K (37:50.104)

Well, it's also nice from a small scale standpoint that you just have a handful you have to deal with. That's kind of a real advantage.

Cary (37:57.778)

It is. It's plenty. I've said, so we've got seven units, including the commercial unit and our own personal unit between the two buildings, the old building and the new building. It's about as much as I want to manage because I've got a full, very full life in other ways and volunteer things and run my business and some development. So it's about as much as I want to deal with. If it gets much, if I get more units that I get to, you know, that we get to keep, I will have to go, I will decide to hire a management company.

One of my clients actually runs a good firm doing that, I'll hire her.

Kevin K (38:32.396)

Well, there you go. So what happens after that, after first street's up and leased and then kind of where do you go from there?

Cary (38:41.194)

Yeah. Well, interestingly, so I had been reading about this pattern from John and others who successfully have done this in the past, John Anderson and many other small developers. You get your building stabilized and then you borrow against it to build the next project. And I was all prepared to do that, but the pandemic hit. So I was just happy to get the thing mortgaged and keep it. Because there was a couple of months when we couldn't get the mortgage in line.

very quickly that we were worried we were gonna have to sell the building because the plan was always to hold it. So I was gonna go do another project. So it's been years until I've got a couple years ago another property that I partnered with two other people because I couldn't easily borrow against my building. So it's taken me more years than I planned to try and get to the next project.

So that was kind of what was next as far as the last five years. And it continues to be challenging to really try and find land and investors. And then right now, even if you could find that to make projects pencil out is tough because of interest rates and the cost of land in our area and the cost of construction.

Kevin K (40:00.46)

Yeah, yeah. Have you thought about, I'm sure you've thought about it, but like what types of projects, if you imagine that you would want to do next, if you could find the right site and everything else, what are you looking to do?

Cary (40:02.08)

So it's been hard that way.

Cary (40:10.09)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

I'm still really intrigued with infill and small scale, urban or close in suburban work. I've looked at and I was pretty serious about a cottage project because I'm on planning commission and we just passed middle housing, missing middle housing code for our city that I helped write.

I was actually the nerd six, seven years ago who would bring articles about middle housing, missing middle, the Opticos had written to council meetings and planning commission meetings to hand them out. So it's really exciting to be that annoying guy and finally get our way. I wasn't on planning commission then. so I've, really been interested in bungalow courts and cottages and stuff. And I say that because it's not necessarily my, to me, that's not like the pinnacle of what I want to do, but I like that it's sort of the,

Kevin K (40:53.944)

Yeah.

Hahaha.

Cary (41:09.867)

the gateway drug for some people who are used to single house on single lot. They seem more open -minded to, we'll put four small homes that are more affordable. They're still expensive, but they're more affordable for our area. And they're gonna be a little closer to schools and shops and services. So it's sort of this entry. And so we're starting to see some proposals in the city that. So I'm interested in that and have had a...

of stops and starts on a couple of those. Doing some townhouses right now with the two partners that I mentioned earlier. We actually wanted that to be about a 10 unit, because of parking, which we're working on eliminating those parking mandates, but because of parking requirements and then interest rates, we couldn't do the build and hold model that we had hoped. we're doing four townhouses, but I remain interested in, you know, if I could have my way, I'd still keep doing mixed use. Very similar to my first First Street Flats project.

but probably more units. I'd love to do 10, 20, 30, ideally over. I'd love to create some sort of a community space that I program, that I could hold and keep. Even if I had to sell condos or something like that and only keep like condo -wise commercial space at the bottom, I'd love to have sort of like a community space I could rent out for events and artists and things like that. It'd be great sort of as my equity piece.

So and I may be to do that in my replacement for this triplex so what I've designed for this this lot to replace the triplex right now that I'm excited about is We had local state legislation here in Washington State legalized co -housing which is also essentially micro units and Because we're right near transit frequent transit in downtown here There is no parking required and we're also about a mile

Kevin K (42:55.234)

Mm

Cary (43:05.078)

from University of Washington Bothell campus. It's a satellite campus. It's about a half an hour to the main campus, but it's a very busy branch of the University of Washington. And they're really close. There's students all around. They don't necessarily have cars. So that need for parking space is not strong. There's a co -located community college there on the same campus. So they're growing all the time.

And there's a lot of people in tech here who ride e -bikes around and walk. And so a lot of people don't necessarily put high priority on car ownership. So suddenly, the project I've been trying to figure out how to make work on this around 4 ,000 square foot site, which is the old Triplex I've been talking about that we own here that I'm sitting in. Suddenly, it works. 20 to 22 units, 350, 400 square feet each, the kitchenette, the bathroom.

The key is you have to have a community space with a shared kitchen and so forth, which is fine. It's fun idea anyway. And a bunch of them have been successfully built in Seattle. So I'm not really excited about that right now because I'm trying to make that happen.

Kevin K (44:09.386)

Interesting. So are there like code, zoning code challenges or anything associated with that building type?

Cary (44:15.538)

Fortunately, nothing special. We have to codify it because there's now a ticking clock. All these cities in Washington have to allow them. So we will be, enough, tackling that in planning commission, I'm sure, in the next year because we'll have to. the similar buildings have already been built, like I mentioned, in Seattle and elsewhere. So it's really going to be a standard, like in my case, five -story, IBC compliant.

building that we've got to put an elevator in, a couple of stairs and so forth. So that would be tight, but it works. But otherwise the zoning here is pretty generous. I'm in the second most dense zoning for the city of Bothell. And so we can go five stories, 65 feet taller bottom story, zero lot line except the back, there's a five foot setback. And then like I said, I get out of those parking requirements, which allows me to really use maximum

Maximum use out of the site.

Kevin K (45:14.826)

That's really cool. And it seems like the student angle really makes a lot of sense for that type.

Cary (45:20.468)

Yeah, yeah, because the students rent apartments around here all the time. And so probably a great option because most of the apartments around here are a little more expensive and a more nicer. Not nice finishes, but I mean, they're larger or more expensive than maybe a freshman or sophomore would want to pay for.

Kevin K (45:41.964)

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, and it's nice, you know, as a student to be able to get your own place, you know, even if it's really small, it doesn't matter. Like when you're that age, it's just cool to have your own space.

Cary (45:46.816)

Yes.

Cary (45:50.57)

Yeah. Yeah, I make that point like in planning commission meetings and elsewhere, people say, because there are certain folks who think it's really inhumane to live in a micro unit. And I do not. I don't think they should be making decisions about how other people want to live, make choices about they want to live. But I lived on Capitol Hill in Seattle, a very dense, walkable, urban neighborhood, very popular neighborhood in Seattle when I was younger.

I had a space that was actually the first year about 120 square feet. was like 10 by 12. Bathroom is down the hall, so it's more like a boarding house. I absolutely loved it because it was super cheap and I was just gone a lot anyway. So it was great. And then I had, I felt like I really arrived because the next year I had one that was about 300 square feet. That seemed huge. So it's all relative.

Kevin K (46:27.746)

Mm

Kevin K (46:38.04)

Well, and it's, you know, it's sort of that like what's old is new again. Because that type, you know, back 100 years ago, there were all manner of types like this, not just boarding houses, but there was the classic building called the apartment hotel, which was really this type. And people rented a room in the apartment hotel and it had some shared amenities. And we had dozens of them. Most older cities had them.

Cary (46:44.074)

Yes.

Cary (47:04.476)

yeah. Yeah, Seattle had a ton, like you said, we were all tracking this these days, but most cities had a lot of them. They outlawed them the seventies, eighties, nineties. The building I was in that I mentioned that I lived in with the bathroom down the hall with both units, bathrooms down the hall. It was a similar building. It was like a single room occupancy type, but they were all different unit sizes. There were some full size apartments, small, medium, large. It's still there. In fact, it just sold a couple of years ago.

Kevin K (47:31.872)

Interesting. Yeah. So one thing, you know, obviously in the Pacific Northwest, Seattle, that area has been one of the leaders for quite a few years in the whole single stair building type deal. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your experience with that and understanding of like how important of a change was that to allow that to happen in Seattle?

Cary (47:44.544)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cary (47:57.078)

Yeah, Seattle's had it for 50, 60 years, something like that. So we've had it for a long time. And there are lot of sort of sleeper buildings that have utilized that single stair for my entire life. And they make a small site work. In fact, I'm friends with Mike Eliason, an architect who helped put the single stair idea on the map and gets a lot of deserved notoriety for it. And Mike spent many years in Germany.

working and so he was really familiar with that type of building, which so common around the world. Yeah, it's for folks who don't know, and I know Kevin probably knows a lot of this, but it makes a small site much more viable because you can create a lot less hallway and circulation space by doing a single stair. Usually the building will be sprinklered so it's safer than you would think. And it allows each unit, usually you can...

total is usually only four per floor. So you usually have at least a corner and two aspects for light and air and cross ventilation. Sometimes like our building, we've got three. So it makes it much more humane to live in. And most people really respond to a building that it's not, for example, folks listening, we've all been in hotels with a single hallway and then that's a double loaded corridor and they've got apartments or rooms off of each side.

Most apartments in the United States built today are that double loaded. So you might have a long deep unit if it's two or three bedrooms. It's uncommon, but let's say two bedrooms or even one bedroom. And there aren't a lot of windows. So all the windows are on the outside edge and you can't get cross ventilation and you don't have light from more than one side. So a single stair makes a much more livable, desirable unit. Most people, again, walk in one and they respond differently.

than they might to one of these double loaded corridor units. what you see in a lot of countries say they want to do a really big building. They build multiple side by side. every, you you might have one every 50 feet or something like that. each stairway serves a slice. So you might end up with five of them in a row and they each have their own stairway, but then they have like a firewall between

Cary (50:19.272)

each of these individual buildings might look like one big building. So there are different ways to put them together. And they actually have, as Mike Eliason and others have been riding on for some time now, very good safety ratings. In fact, fewer fire incidents that we do in the United States with our two -stair buildings. So there's a lot to recommend them and there's momentum behind making them more legal. Washington State, in fact,

passed a law this last year, one my friends, a representative here at Bothell helped push the legislation that the city, excuse me, the state of Washington has to have a up to six story single stair building code amendment essentially or ordinance that any city can adopt. They're not forced to, but they can adopt it and ready to go in about a year. I think it was a year, year and a half.

I think other states are starting to do it too. California might have it on theirs. But the key thing is that it allows buildings like my three story, but you could do four, five, six, and it makes a small lot instantly more developable. The reason we see a lot of these big block size, half block size buildings, we call them podium buildings, five over ones, whatever, with 100, 200, 300 units is because they have to aggregate land into these huge.

plots so they could do a big enough project to merit two stairs, multiple elevators, and make them viable. Whereas once you can just do a single stair, maybe a single elevator if it's needed for accessibility, you can make almost any little slice of a lot work. So it opens up enormous amounts of our building, our zoning, the fabric, the land in America that we maybe have looked at and not been able to utilize.

Kevin K (52:13.645)

with them.

Kevin K (52:17.976)

Yeah, I kind of think of it myself if I were to go back to thinking about how I lived like when I was in college and the standard college dormitory that I lived in, and I think a lot of people lived in, was a double -loaded corridor, little shoebox rooms that two people stayed in together with one window. And they weren't particularly pleasant. You're 18 or 19 years old, that's not a big priority, but it's not like,

Cary (52:46.025)

Okay.

Kevin K (52:47.244)

They weren't like the most pleasant places to live. And then when I remember, you know, especially at a college and I started having some friends that rented some of these more historic, like four and sixplex apartments that had exactly what you described. So they had a single entry and a stair in the middle of the building. And then they were flanked by usually one bedroom apartments, sometimes two bedrooms, going up two or three stories. And what was so cool was you would walk in, you walk in those places.

and it's windows on three sides. And it just immediately felt, even for like some of these places that at the time were like really old and hadn't been renovated and God knows how long, they just felt so much better because of the presence of the windows and the light and the cross ventilation. And that's a huge benefit of this approach.

Cary (53:33.173)

So true.

Cary (53:39.798)

It's true. I don't even know if I felt completely as strongly about it as I do when I was working on my building and taking advantage of this aspect. I mean, I knew as an architect, because I'm always trying to get bedrooms with two sources of natural light. are pattern language kind of things we reflect on as architects, right? But until you, I think, like you said, walk into one and experience it and kind of know you're comparing it to something with that single window.

aspect type of apartment, it really kind of smacks you up in the head. Like you said, it doesn't matter how old it is, whatever. It's just, it's so much more humane. with us as a culture, as a society, as a country, waking up to how, we could have that and it would be good for us. And a lot of people would enjoy it. And we just kind of have to legalize it as a, it's a pretty powerful thought that, we could have, we could have nice things as the meme guy.

Kevin K (54:33.846)

Right, and it's not like we're giving something up in order to get it. It's really just kind of a silly adaptation of how the building codes have grown and changed over the years.

Cary (54:36.672)

No.

Cary (54:43.702)

Precisely. Yeah, we could just decide to do things differently and have these nice things and hey, we might even be safer for it.

Kevin K (54:51.384)

Yeah, yeah, no doubt. So, you know, one of the things, Kerry, is like we joke about here in the middle of the country is that like all the trends, of course, start on the coasts and then eventually, you know, like 10 or 20 years later, they find themselves here in the Midwest. what other obviously you all, especially a lot of West Coast states have really been leading the charge because of your your housing crisis is much more intense than

Cary (55:02.238)

Hahaha

Kevin K (55:20.118)

what we are having, so there's a lot more reform happening. What else is going on that you're seeing that we might be hearing more about as time goes on?

Cary (55:26.794)

Mm

Cary (55:31.286)

One of the hot ones right now that I think is going to happen and this is gonna fit right into the whole Midwest and Heartland because you guys have to tell me the corner store idea We're starting to warm up in the state here and various cities and and the people like just your average citizen Really responds well to this like why don't we have corner stores anymore? Well, let's set aside the fact that they're hard to necessarily operate and run and make work. Let's you know, that's maybe

going to have to be tackled, but it doesn't have to be a store per se. It could be a wine bar. could be a cafe, whatever. So we're starting to see a trickle of bills and ideas and cities experimenting with the idea of re -legalizing corner stores. Granted that West Coast is covered with these dendritic cul -de -sac laid out neighborhoods that are not grids.

And they do not lend themselves well necessarily like a grid does to having corner stores and walkability and everything. So we're going to have, we have some challenges, but that's one of the things we're seeing people really wake up to is how do we allow low impact mix use in our residential neighborhoods again? And Spokane has a program that goes back, I think to 2017, because Spokane is an older city in Washington.

It's not old compared to Midwest and back East, but for us, it's, you know, they were going gangbusters in late 19th century. They had a lot more corner stores that were turned residential, kind of turned into homes because they outwalled them. Well, they had sort of an amnesty program beginning, I think it was 2017, with some success where you could take anything that was clearly on record as being a commercial store or commercial use.

could be turned back into a commercial use. They have a whole program for it. And Volkan's really been on the forefront of programs like that, Missing Middle and other things as well. So that's one I see coming that gets talked about a lot.

Kevin K (57:36.768)

Interesting.

Kevin K (57:41.248)

Mm -hmm, interesting. Well, if I could marry two things that I just personally really love. One, as an architect, I love small buildings and small spaces. And the second is I love the, especially what you see in Japan, the Japanese approach to really, really small businesses that are run by one person, but are fanatic and excellent at what they do. And to have more of that in our communities would be.

Cary (57:50.656)

Yeah.

Cary (57:56.842)

Yes.

Kevin K (58:10.319)

would be pretty cool.

Cary (58:12.18)

You and me both, I'm fanatic about having those. really, yeah, I'm so envious when I see those cute little, beautiful little Japanese stores serving just specialty teas or donuts or whatever. Yeah, it's amazing.

Kevin K (58:25.25)

Yeah. Yeah. Or like, it's a, it's like the best restaurant you've ever eaten at in a head and it seats like six people, you know, so yeah.

Cary (58:31.958)

Yeah, exactly. back in 10 minutes. Yeah, it's gorgeous. Yeah, exactly. We've got to open the doors just to have people be able to sit on the stools, right? Yeah, it's great. Yeah. And so we're seeing people get more comfortable with that. And like I said, it's actually a popular idea with lot of people who aren't necessarily into policy and planning and design, the people who live in neighborhoods frequently.

Kevin K (58:41.036)

Yeah, no doubt. No doubt.

Kevin K (58:56.13)

So one last thing I wanted to ask you about, Kerry, was obviously you've been on the planning commission for some time and wanted if you could talk a little bit about why you got involved in that way. And maybe as somebody who's not just a designer, but a developer, and you have a foot in all these different worlds, what were some of the advantages for you to get involved in that response?

Cary (59:11.115)

and

Cary (59:15.254)

Yeah. And a little bit of background on that. know we don't have much time. Something I didn't talk about here, but I've been a member of Strong Towns for, gosh, probably 10 years now, of earlier days, not super early. And so I've been on their podcast a couple of times and I've been a fan and been part of some of their classroom, know, their classes and things like that. Anyway, so I've got a

Program background and then I had a very successful now kind of quieter group called Bopop Botha lights for people oriented places Our town is Bothal, which is one of the early local conversations That strong towns now fosters really strongly anyway that led me to going to lots of planning commission and and built a city council meetings and then as friends and I were doing that We've

ended up taking over many of us who were in BoPOP or were peripherally related to BoPOP. City Council, five people now, and most of Planning Commission, and some have cycled from Planning Commission. So anyway, my pitch to getting on Planning Commission was at the time, four years ago, I'll be up for another four years this next winter, there were no people on Planning Commission who were...

architects, developers, builders, engineers, anything like that. And I feel like they usually, she should have at least one or two who actually work in the codes and build and develop or plan or whatever. So that was actually my pitch. And some of my detractors since then have said, he's this, you know, developer, shell, architect, blah, blah. And I very, very, you know, I'm very out.

Kevin K (01:00:55.44)

Ha ha ha.

Cary (01:01:01.086)

out about that. Like, yeah, that was literally my pitch is we should have people who are doing this work who were reading and using the code who are the ones helping to modify it and build it and change it. I'm very unabashed about that. So that is why I wanted to be in there. And that's what we've been doing. And sometimes it's a bit boring and tedious to put it mildly. But

It's important work and I encourage people to seek that out if you have any interest in it. Most people are still somewhat lay people, but we have a couple of people who are civil engineers, planners, lawyers. So there are people who do work related to making code and law who are fit right in. But we like to have people who are not necessarily related to, because we like diverse perspectives on planning commission. As long as they're willing to bone up and learn about how to.

Kevin K (01:01:51.212)

Yeah.

Cary (01:01:53.972)

how to operate and read the code and ordinances and things.

Kevin K (01:01:59.798)

Yeah, it just seems, you know, honestly, logical to me that if you have a commission or anything that is heavily involved in regulating one industry that there ought to be some people from there who interact with those regulations every day and who are involved. Just like, like if you had a commission to regulate barber shops, you would expect like there'd be a few barbers, you know, on the commission.

Cary (01:02:18.72)

Yeah. Yeah. That's why I kind of chuckle when people think there's this conflict of interest. And I say, no, I was, that was literally my pitch was you need people who do this work, who are helping to shape these, these policies. And, it's been, it's been good for me. And then I think, I've helped, helped get a lot done. I believe that it's useful for pushing us forward and streamlining and, and, know, helping to housing is just a major, major issue.

How can we sort of stay safe and compliant, but grease the skids for more housing? It's been a big, focus.

Kevin K (01:02:57.014)

No doubt. Well, Kerry, it's been a real pleasure. It's been a lot of fun. feel like we could easily go on for another hour or two, but I think we'll call it right there. And I really value having your experience and sharing that with everybody. And hopefully we get a chance to talk about this again at a future date.

Cary (01:03:04.874)

down.

Cary (01:03:16.446)

Agreed, my pleasure. Like I said, I can keep, keep put a quarter in me and I keep going, I hope, hopefully some of this is useful.

Kevin K (01:03:23.2)

and how if somebody wants to try to find you either, you know, internet or social media or whatever, what's the best way.

Cary (01:03:30.068)

Yeah, I can be found. Well, my website is westerbeckarchitecture .com. And you can always drop me a note there. But the easiest way, I'm still on Twitter under my own name. We'll see how long that lasts. I've jumped onto Threads social media, which I've been spending more time. And I can be found under my name there. So those are both good ways to find me. And then I have a business page on Facebook.

I don't go on there very often, but if anybody tries to message me there or finds me there, I will see that. So I can be found pretty easily on those platforms or my website certainly. And there's a number for my firm on the website, so people could feel free to call or text me if they want to. And many people have. I've been contacted dozens and dozens and dozens of times since finishing my building five years ago. And I'm always happy to help.

Kevin K (01:04:26.459)

that's fantastic. All right, Kerry, well, really appreciate the time and look forward to talking again. All right, take care.

Cary (01:04:32.736)

Thank you, Kevin.

Frank Starkey and his family are one of those rare breeds of Floridians that actually have deep roots in the Sunshine State. We talk about how they sought to owner their grand-dad’s wishes as they ultimately developed the family cattle ranch in New Port Richey. A big part of their work was the Traditional Neighborhood Development (TND) called Longleaf. And later, the Starkey Ranch project.

Here’s a funny real estate video about Longleaf: (funny to me, anyway)

If you listen to Frank, you’ll learn how an architect has a whole different perspective on the present and the future, and why he thinks he has a luxurious lifestyle now in downtown New Port Richey. You can see some of his current efforts at this link to his website.

This is episode number 50 of The Messy City podcast - thanks so much for listening. If you’re new to this, welcome! I look forward to the next 50, as we explore the issues and people who love traditional human settlements, and are trying to create them. I love talking to the do-ers, to the creators, and everyone who has skin in the game that’s trying to build a more humane world.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Transcript: Kevin K (00:01.18) Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I'm happy today to be joined by my friend and fellow new urbanist, long time participant, Frank Starkey, joining us from Florida. Frank, how you doing today? Frank Starkey (00:20.337) Howdy, Kevin. Doing great. Happy to be with you. I've been... Kevin K (00:22.908) I didn't even check. I assume you're in Florida at home, but you could really be anywhere. Okay. Frank Starkey (00:25.617) Yeah, I am. Yeah. Yep, I'm in our we recently moved into a townhouse that Andy McCloskey, who used to work for me, built in town here and we just bought one and we're very happy here. It's really nice. Kevin K (00:40.348) Cool, cool. And you're in New Port Richey? Frank Starkey (00:45.169) Yes, Newport Richey is on the northwest side of the Tampa Bay region. It's part of the region. We're in that suburban sprawl miasma that characterizes all Florida cities. And we're about 25 miles as the crow flies from Tampa, basically from downtown Tampa, and probably 15 to 20 miles from Clearwater and 30 miles from St. Pete. So we're And we're right on the Gulf. We have a river that runs right through town that river miles from where we are out to the Gulf is maybe five river miles. So you could easily kayak and paddle board right out there or upstream pretty quickly you're into the Cypress freshwater wetlands. So we've got a lot of good nature around. Kevin K (01:39.516) Do you ever do that? Do you ever get out on a kayak or whatever and get out there on the river? Frank Starkey (01:43.089) Yeah, it's been a while. But if you go up to there's a preserve that the city owns that's up in the freshwater area. And if you're in there, you think you're in the Tarzan. A lot of the Tarzan movies and shows were filmed in Florida swamps and you feel like you're in a Tarzan movie. You can't see that you're in the middle of town. And if you go out to the coast, the barrier island and right where we are. They really start and go south from here. So from here on up through the big bend of the Panhandle in Florida, the coastline is all marshes and salt flats and grass wetlands. It's a much prettier coastline in my opinion than the more built -up barrier islands. But you can go out and kayak for days and days out in the coastal areas and see all kinds of wildlife and water life. So it's pretty cool. Kevin K (02:40.124) That's cool. That's really cool. Well, Frank and I have been talking about trying to do this for a while. We'd hoped to hook up in Cincinnati, but schedules just got in the way, as is typical for that event. But I really wanted to talk with you today, Frank, because you hit on a couple of my hot points, which is that you're an architect and a developer. Frank Starkey (02:51.313) you Kevin K (03:06.332) And I know as a designer that you also care a lot about the kind of issues that we talk about routinely within the world of new urbanism and urban design, which is, you know, creating beautiful walkable places. So I just think it'd be interesting. You know, I talked to a lot of people who come into the world of trying to be developers. You and I probably both talked to a lot of fellow architects who we try to encourage to be developers. Frank Starkey (03:06.481) Mm -hmm. Kevin K (03:33.948) And so it's fascinating to me how people come to that. So I wonder if we could start just a little bit by talking about like your path and where, you know, how you got to this point. You, did you grow up in Florida or were you in Texas? Is that right? Frank Starkey (03:51.761) Now I grew up in Florida. I went to college in Texas, but I grew up on a cattle ranch just east of here, in an area that's now called Odessa. It was a 16 ,000 acre, beef cattle ranch that our grandfather had bought in the 1930s. And we were about 20, 20 miles from downtown Tampa and Newport, Richie was our hometown because of the county we're in Pasco County. And so we came to, you know, church school. shopping was in Newport, Ritchie. But I also kind of had an orientation towards Tampa because we were sort of closer that direction. And then my extended family all lived in St. Petersburg. My parents had grown up there and then my dad grew up in Largo on a branch down there that his dad had before the one in Odessa. I... Kevin K (04:41.564) So it's like the rare species of old Florida people, right? So. Frank Starkey (04:45.361) Yeah. Yeah, but man, I have a weird, I've always come from a very mixed, I mean, just a very much kind of background, culturally, geographically, economically. My great grandparents were from, mostly from the upper Midwest. And so we kind of, and my great grandfather on my dad's side. was William Straub, who was the publisher of the St. Petersburg Times. But I later found out that he was instrumental in getting the city to hire John Nolan to do a plan for the remainder of St. Petersburg. He was instrumental in getting the city to buy up a mile of its waterfront to create a continuous waterfront park along the bay in downtown St. Petersburg, which is the crown jewel of the city in terms of civic space. So I kind of grew up and then that that kind of orientation towards parks. He also helped the County, Pinellas County establish a park system, which was one of the earliest ones in the country. And so I kind of this park orientation and public space and civic life and civic engagement was a strain through my whole childhood. You know, my whole is kind of a generational thing in our family. And so that's one thread and. Living in the country, we didn't have much in the way of neighbors. The area of Odessa in those days was pretty poor. So I rode the school bus with kids that had virtually nothing and went to school in the suburbs of Western Pasco, which was where the kids were mostly from the Midwest. Their grandparents had worked for Ford or GM or Chrysler and then they... moved to Florida and the grandkids, you know, the kids moved with them. And so those were the kids I grew up with. And so I, you know, I didn't feel like I grew up in the deep south. People, but I, but I was close enough to it that I understand it, but I don't consider myself a, you know, capital S southerner, my accent notwithstanding to the degree that a good friend of mine, Frank Starkey (07:07.793) I grew up in Plant City on the east side of Tampa, which is much more in the farming world part of Hillsborough County. And he was much more deep south than I was, even though we grew up, you know, 40 miles apart. So it's just a very different cultural setting. So I grew up with, you know, upper Midwest heritage who had been in St. Petersburg since 1899. And then, you know, poor kids, middle -class kids, and then eventually wealthier folks. So I just kind of had this really all over the place cultural background that's not nearly as simple as, I mean, all of Florida has a tapestry of, a patchwork of different kinds of cultural influences. South of I -10, north of I -10, you're in South Georgia or Alabama, but. the peninsula of Florida is very culturally mixed up. Kevin K (08:11.228) So the old canard, I guess, was that the west coast of Florida was populated by people who came from the Midwest and the east coast was from the Northeast. Does that hold true in your experience? Frank Starkey (08:22.129) Yeah, that does hold true, although there were a lot of New Yorkers in Boston, not so much New England, but still a lot of New Yorkers found their way across. So I grew up around a lot of New York Italian descent folks, as well as Midwesterners. So I, you know, it's a wonder I don't have a New York accent or a Michigan accent or a Southern accent, because those were the kind of the three, more about more, you know, Northern accents than. than Southern accents from immediately where I grew up. But yeah, I -75 goes to Detroit and that I -95 on the East Coast goes to New York. And so that means that has an impact. Kevin K (09:06.844) Did you ever know about the Kansas City connection to St. Pete then with J .C. Nichols down there in downtown St. Pete? Frank Starkey (09:17.329) And tell me about it. I mean, I, because Bruce Stevenson's book, I think touched on that because they, they had an APA convention down here back in the 1920s. Kevin K (09:20.54) Well, that's it. Kevin K (09:28.54) Yeah, J .C. Nichols who developed the Country Club Plaza here, starting really in the 19 -teens, later in his life, he was asked to, or he bought property in St. Petersburg, in or near the downtown area. And the whole concept was they were going to essentially build like another version of Country Club Plaza there in downtown St. Pete. Yeah. And so I think like a small portion of it got built down there. Frank Starkey (09:32.785) All right. Frank Starkey (09:51.665) Really? Kevin K (09:57.564) And then maybe the real estate deal fell apart or something like that. But there was, yeah, that was a big push at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Frank Starkey (10:03.633) or the Depression hit. Interesting. Now, I wasn't aware of that. I didn't know that he had bought and had plans to develop here. That's interesting. The other, St. Petersburg's, well, the Florida Land Bus was in 1926. So Florida real estate speculation really ended then, and then it didn't pick up again until after World War II. So that might have been the death of it. Kevin K (10:13.084) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin K (10:27.164) Yeah. Yeah. So you find yourself growing up on a ranch then, pretty much in Florida. What takes you to architecture? What takes you to architecture and then to Texas to go to architecture school? Frank Starkey (10:35.505) I'd have been becoming an architect. Frank Starkey (10:42.289) For whatever combination of reasons, one evening when I was in about fourth grade, I, dad recollected this years later. I asked dad at the dinner table, what do you call a person, what do you call a person who designs buildings? Not as a riddle, just, and he said, it's called an architect. And I said, well, that's what I want to be when I grow up. And I never had the sense to question that decision again. So. Kevin K (11:00.54) Yeah. Kevin K (11:09.276) That's how it sounds vaguely familiar. Frank Starkey (11:11.853) you So, you know, whether it was Legos and Lincoln Logs and the Brady Bunch. And when I was a kid, we had a cabin in North Carolina that dad had the shell built by this guy who had a lumber mill up there and he would build a shell for you for $5 ,000 or something. He built that out of green poplar wood. The whole thing was immediately warped and racked and sagged and did everything that. green wood will do, and we immediately put it in a building. But dad spent all of our vacation times up there finishing out the interior of that. So I was just around that construction. And dad was also being a counter rancher, and he knew welding. And he was always tinkering. And in addition to fixing things, he was also inventing implements to use on the ranch and things like that. So he just had a hand building. ethic that, you know, he just kind of had. So whatever made me decide I wanted to design buildings, as I grew up from that point on, I just was all about it. And so by the time I got to high school, I couldn't wait to get into working for an architect. And I was an intern for an architect in Newport, Ritchie, when I was in high school. And then I went to Rice University in Houston to go to architecture school. So after I, and I did my internship here, which is part of the program at Rice for the professional degree. I did that in New York City for Pay Cop, Read and Partners. And another ironic thing was I learned, I had a really great classical architecture history professor in college at Rice who in his summers led, he and his partner who was a art history professor also, a fine arts. Frank Starkey (13:10.289) They led an archaeological excavation outside Rome of a villa from the dated that basically dated a time period of about 600 years straddling the time of Christ. And I've spent the summer after my freshman year on that dig. So I had a had a really strong exposure to classical architecture and urbanism throughout my school. And when I worked for PAY, I worked on James Freed's projects. At that time, we were working on what became the Ronald Reagan building in Washington, D .C. It's the last big building in the federal triangle. And so it's a neoclassical exterior with a very modern interior. It's kind of like a spaceship wrapped inside a federal building. And the other project I worked on a little bit that year was the San Francisco Main Library, which is in the Civic Center right down in the Civic Center of Francisco with the City Hall and the old library. The new library is a mirror of it that's a neoclassical facade on, well, two wings of a neoclassical facade that face the Civic Center side. And then on the backside, which faces Market Street, there's a much more modern interpretation of that commercial core district facing along Market Street. So I worked on these buildings with Sirius that took, you know, this was at the end of the Pomo era of the 80s when everybody was making fun of classical architecture in, the architects were having fun with it or making fun of it, however you look at it. And Fried was taking it more seriously. It was still a updated take on neoclassical architecture. in some of the details, but it was really a fascinating exposure to the actual practice of designing classical buildings, working for one of the most famously modernist firms in the world. So. Kevin K (15:21.628) Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. Yeah. That's pretty wild. Was rice, I mean, we're about the same age, was rice kind of like most architecture schools, generally speaking, in their emphasis on looking at modernist design as the holy grail that you must pursue? Frank Starkey (15:28.433) Mm -hmm. Frank Starkey (15:38.769) Yeah, interestingly, like my childhood and the cultural mix that I described earlier, Rice was sort of in this period at that time where it was between deans. There was a series of, it's too long a story to explain here, but the previous dean who had been there for 15 years or something, O. Jack Mitchell, announced his retirement the day I started classes. And... So he was a lame duck. And then it was, you know, we basically went through a series of searches, deans, dean passed away, interim dean search, a new dean, and then he resigned. So the whole time I was in college, we really didn't have a dean. And the faculty that Mitchell had built was very, I'd say ecumenical. They kind of, we had some diehard theoretical postmodernists and we had. At the other end of the spectrum, we had a guy who did a lot of real estate development who was super practical and we always made fun of him for caring about mundane things like budgets. And I know he was, I made him a laughing stock, which I wish I'd taken more of his classes. But anyway, and then a really good core faculty who had a real sense of, and real care about urban design and. Kevin K (16:46.428) Well, yeah, exactly. Frank Starkey (17:04.401) My sophomore class field trip was to Paris and we did studies of, you know, in groups, each of us studied at Urban Plus. So I really had a strong urban design and contextual sensibility through my architecture class, all my architecture classes. In the background, there was this whole drum beat of postmodernist, post structuralism and deconstructivism. that was going on. I never caught into that. It always just seemed like anything that requires that much intellectual gymnastics is probably just kind of b******t. And it also, I was involved with campus ministries and fellowship of Christian athletes and church. And so I had a sense of mission and doing good in the world. And it also just, it just didn't work with that either. So I didn't really go in for that stuff, but the urban design stuff really did stick with me. And then the classical architecture and Vignoli, which I mentioned to you the other day, that really did kind of stick to me as a methodology. Kevin K (18:29.436) Man, I went for it hook line and sinker, man. It was, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I thought deconstructivism was like the coolest thing at that time period. And I bought the whole program for some period of time. And frankly, until I ran across some of Andreas's writings and then started learning about seaside. And that's really what kind of broke it open for me that I started to. Frank Starkey (18:32.433) Really? Frank Starkey (18:40.465) -huh. Frank Starkey (18:52.273) Mm -hmm. Kevin K (18:58.556) see things a little bit differently and all, but I, yeah, I was, I was in deconstructivism was funny because you could just kind of do anything and you know, you could call anything a building basically. Yeah. Frank Starkey (19:07.537) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the author is dead long live the text was the, and so you could just, yeah. And to me, it was just pulling, it was just pulling stuff out of your butt and I just. Kevin K (19:22.636) totally. Yeah. Yeah. It was all b******t, but it was, I guess, fun for a 19 or 20 year old for a little while. So, all right. So fast forward then, did you come back to Florida then pretty much right after school or? Yeah. Frank Starkey (19:25.809) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Frank Starkey (19:38.929) Yeah, I did a gap year after college and then ended up in Austin for another year and then came back to work with my brother. So by that time, we had seen, because of where the ranch is situated, it's sort of in the crosshairs of growth patterns coming from Tampa to the south and Clearwater to the southwest. and Newport -Ritchie from the west. So it was, the growth was coming from, at us from two directions. Granddad and you know, this 16 ,000 acres that's 20 miles from downtown Tampa, as you can imagine in the 20th century is going up in value pretty dramatically from 1937 to 19, you know, to the late century. And in the early seventies, he started selling and donating land to the state for preservation. Kevin K (20:24.22) Mm -hmm. Frank Starkey (20:36.177) and so we had, you know, again, that whole park ethic, and the, so we were selling, kind of selling the Northern parts that were away from the development pattern, off. And it was partly for the state tax planning purposes and also just, but primarily to put the land into conservation. So there would be something left of native Florida for people to see in future generations. That was his. His goal. My brother had my brother six years older than me and had gone to University of Florida and gotten a finance degree. And he came back after college, which was when I was like my senior year in high school and started working for the granddad was still alive and he was working for the estate, helping with that planning. And granddad passed away while I was in college and we had the estate tax to deal with. And we ended up selling some more land to the state for conservation. And he also started learning the development. process. We knew that as much land as we could sell to the state as possible, we were not going to be able to sell at all and we were going to have to develop. Somebody was going to develop land on the ranch. And our family wanted to see that it was done in a way that was, you know, that we would be proud of that, that put together our, you know, our family goals for civic engagement, environmental preservation, and, you know, and also. It was the whole family's sole asset. So it's everybody's retirement fund and principally our parents and our cousins. So we have cousins who are half generation older than us. So we were accepting that development was inevitable and wanted to be more in control of it. So Trae had been talking to me for a while about coming back and working with him on the development stuff in the ranch. So that's what I decided to do in 1995. And the decision point for me, Kevin K (22:09.468) Yeah. Frank Starkey (22:34.449) was, you know, I had set up my career trajectory to become a consulting architect and design buildings for other people. And I realized that I had this opportunity to, you know, have a bigger imprint on developing a neighborhood that could perhaps set a pattern. By that time, I had become knowledgeable about new urbanism and what was going on at Seaside. And And at that point, I think some of the other projects were starting to come out of the ground. So this was 1995. So I was like, well, I, you know, I've got too much opportunity here. And, and with what, what I know and what I have to bring to the table, it just seems like the thing I'd need to do. So I came back and we started working on development on the southwestern corner of the ranch, which was sort of the direction that was the frontline for development. So in 1997, we held our charrette for what became Longleaf, which is a 568 acre traditional neighborhood development that we broke ground on in 1999. Our first residents moved in in 2000. And that was the first TND in Pasco County. And in my opinion, it was the last TND in Pasco County. Because the county loved it so much that they... Kevin K (24:00.38) You Frank Starkey (24:04.721) passed the TND standards ordinance, which it would never comply with and that no other developers ever wanted to do. And so nobody really has. They've kind of just, it's been compromised with, right? That's a whole other story. Kevin K (24:20.14) Yeah. Well, that sounds, I mean, we may need to get into that at some point, but, so you started this in 2000 and really in earnest 2001 or so. And obviously there was a little, little bump in the economy right then, but I guess kind of more of a bump compared to what came later. So talk about like those first, maybe that first decade then, like what all did you build and how much of this were you actively involved in the design of? Frank Starkey (24:24.529) Okay. Frank Starkey (24:39.377) Yeah. Frank Starkey (24:49.425) It's fascinating looking back on it how compressed that time frame was because we sold we we developed the first of four neighborhoods In the first neighborhood we did in As I said 99 2000 and then we built the second neighborhood in 2002 2003 we sold the third and fourth neighborhoods in 2004 which You know, six years later, we look like geniuses. If we would have been, if we'd been real geniuses, we would have waited until 2006 to sell them. But we got out before the crash, obviously. So we did well there. We were, I was, you know, Trey and I, because we had a view of building a career in real estate development, we thought we should do everything. We should touch every aspect of the process ourselves at least once. So we knew how everything worked. But then we never scaled up our operation big enough to hire people to fill in those specialties for us. So we really both kind of ended up doing a whole lot of the work ourselves. So our master, our designer was Jeffrey Farrell, who did the the overall plan for Longleaf. And he wrote the design code, but we collaborated on all that very closely, because I knew enough about what urbanism was and architecture. And so I administered that design code with our builders. He detailed out the first neighborhood. He and I detailed out the second neighborhood. collaboratively or sort of a 50 -50. And you know what I mean by detailed out, just, you know, you take a schematic plan and then you have to put it into CAD and get it, get to real dimensions and deal with wetland lines and drainage and all that stuff. You get, s**t gets real about, you know, curbs and things like that. So that kind of, those details. And the third neighborhood I detailed out, but we sold it, but the developer who bought it built it out according to what I had done. So I was... Frank Starkey (27:15.281) very involved with the planning side of it. And of course I had been involved with the entitlements and then I administered the design code with all of our builders. So I was dealing with there and we had, we didn't have sophisticated builders. We didn't have custom, we weren't a custom home builder project. We were small local production builders. So these were builders who built 300 houses a year. We weren't dealing with. David weekly, you know, a national home builder who was doing nice stuff. Nor were we dealing with the 12, you know, you know, a year custom builders. So we didn't have much sophistication on the design side coming from our builders. So I did a lot of hand holding on the design of that. I always tell if you're a architect who's going to be your. Kevin K (27:46.716) Mm -hmm. Frank Starkey (28:13.169) is going to develop a T and D. I will tell you under no circumstances do what I did. Always hire somebody else to be the bad guy because as the developer you just can't look the home builder in the eye and say let this customer go. And so even though they're asking you to do something you shouldn't. So you need somebody who can be your heavy for that and it's not going to be you as the developer. But anyway, so I did that and And then I designed some of the common buildings and then had them. I wasn't licensed yet. And so I had those CDs done by somebody with a stamp. So I always said that I, you know, between the larger planning of the ranch and the strategy there, and I also got involved in community, you know, regional and county wide planning efforts and committees and things like that and planning council. So I kind of worked at the scale from the region to the doorknob. Which, you know, is fabulous as an architect because I've found all of those levels, I still do, I find all of those levels of design and planning fascinating. Kevin K (29:17.084) hehe Kevin K (29:30.78) So let's talk about the mechanics of being a land developer for a minute and how you did it. So you obviously own the land, and then you came up with the master plan. So then how many steps did you take? You took on the burden of entitling probably the whole project in phase by phase. And then were you also financing and building infrastructure as well, and then basically selling off finished land? Frank Starkey (29:36.433) Mm -hmm. Kevin K (29:59.26) finished parcels or finished lots to other developers or builders. Frank Starkey (30:04.177) Yeah, what we, so dad on the land free and clear, he contracted the land to us under a purchase and sale agreement whereby we would pay a release price when we sold a lot. So, you know, it's favorable inside family deal. We paid him a fair price, but it was a very favorable structure that allowed it, and he subordinated it to. to lending for, we had to borrow, we don't have cash as a family, we didn't, none of us have cashflow from, you know, we don't have some other operating company that spits off cashflow. So we had asset value, but no cashflow. So we had to borrow money to pay for infrastructure, I mean, for planning and entitlement costs and engineering. And so that was our first loan. And then we had, We set up a community development district, which is a special purpose taxing district that a lot of states have different versions of them in Florida. It's called a CDD. It's basically like a quasi -municipality that a developer can establish with permission from the county and state government to establish a district, which is then able to sell tax -free government -style bonds to finance infrastructure. So it's an expensive entity to create and then to maintain. But if you're financing a big enough chunk, which in those days was like $10 million, it became efficient to have the care and feeding of the district in order to get the cheaper money. So you could get cheaper bond money for financing infrastructure. You could not finance marketing or... specific lot specific things you could for example, you could finance drainage, but you couldn't finance still so some of the Terminology was a little bit You kind of had to do some creative workarounds, but basically our so but we it also meant you had to still have a source of capital for those things that the district would not finance so we had an outside Frank Starkey (32:28.497) Loan structure in addition to the CDD financing and that was how we financed the construction of the development and then sold the lots to individual home builders We had three builders under contract in our first phase and each of them was committed to a certain number of lots and they had enough capital access on their own to finance their the construction of their houses a lot of them would use their buyers financing and use do construction permanent loans to finance the vertical construction of the houses. But the builders had the ability to take down the lots. So that was the deal. I don't know if that structure is still done very much or if there were many builders in that scale that still do that in Florida or in this area. It seems like most of those builders got just crushed. in a great recession and never came back. I'm not really aware of any builders that are in that scale, in that size range anymore. I mean, if there are, there's maybe a dozen where there used to be 100. Kevin K (33:40.86) Yeah, so they either got smaller or a lot bigger basically. Frank Starkey (33:45.681) No, they mostly just flat got killed and just went out of business. And they may have resurrected themselves. Yeah, they may have resurrected a smaller or gone to work for somebody else or retired because a lot of them were older. Of the builders that we had, yeah, I think they probably did get smaller in fairness, but they were gone. And we were out of, as I said earlier, we were long out of long leaps. And the... Kevin K (33:47.836) Yeah. Frank Starkey (34:13.969) Crosland was the developer that bought the third and fourth neighborhoods and they didn't they brought in all new builders. So they brought in David weekly and inland, which was a larger regional builder. And then Morrison, I think one of the other large, larger builders who did rear loaded T and D project product. Kevin K (34:38.108) So how much heartburn was that for you and your family to go from this position where you're like asset rich but cash poor to and then all of a sudden you're taking on pretty large debt to do this development piece? I mean, what was that like? Frank Starkey (34:54.801) Well, you know, you just you don't know what you don't know when you're young and ambitious. So it was it was there. I did. There were some real Rolade's cheering moments. I think, as I recall, the most stressful times for us were before we started construction. And it was it was frankly, it was harder on Trey because he was he was starting a family at that time. So he had. He had literally more mouths to feed than I did. I was still single and so, and I didn't have the stresses on me that he did. And once we got under development, we weren't so much, you know, the stress level shifted to different, you know, kind of a different complexion. And, you know, fortunately when the recession hit, We were done with long, we didn't have, you know, we weren't sitting with longleaf hanging on us. So that was good. but we were in the midst of entitlements for the Starkey Ranch project, which was the remainder of the land that the family still had that had not been sold to the state. And we were taking that, there was about 2 ,500 acres. We were taking that through entitlements starting in 90, in 2005. And I would say that we got our, our entitlements. not our zoning, but we got our entitlements package approved, in essence, the day before the recession hit. So, so we had borrowed again, borrowed a lot of money to relatively a lot more money to pay for that. And that also involved the whole family, because that was the rest of the ranch that that the part that long leaf is on dad had owned individually, free and clear. The remainder of it. had been in granddad's estate and that went down to children and grandchildren. And so there were seven different owners of that. And we had spent some time in the early 2000s putting that together into a partnership, into one joint venture where everybody owned a pro rata share of the whole, but we had other shareholders to answer to. And so that was a whole other level of stress. Frank Starkey (37:16.913) due to the recession because our bank went, you know, did what all banks do and they called the loan even though we hadn't gone, we hadn't defaulted. We would have defaulted if they'd waited six months, but they blanked first and they sued us and we spanked them in essence, but we, at the end of the day, but it was two years of grinding through a lawsuit that was hideous and that was really the most unpleasant. Kevin K (37:29.82) Hahaha! Frank Starkey (37:46.257) level of stress, not because we were going to lose our houses, but because we were, it was just was acrimonious and not what we wanted to be doing. Plus you had the background of the whole world having ground to a halt. So fighting that out through the dark days of the recession was, that was pretty lousy way to spend a couple of years. Kevin K (38:12.284) Yeah, so then how did you all come out of that situation then? Frank Starkey (38:17.009) We ended in a settlement. The settlement, the worst part of the settlement to me was that we had to, long story, but some of the, we had retained ownership of downtown Longleaf with the commercial core, mixed use core of Longleaf. And that wasn't completed development yet. And because we had that collateralized on another loan with the same bank, we ended up having to cut that off as part of the settlement. So. we, you know, we had to, we amputated a finger, not a hand, but still it was, it was, you know, it was our pointer finger. So that was, that was hard, but, but we lived to fight another day, which again, you know, fortunately it's better to be lucky than good, right? We were, that makes us look like, you know, we did pretty well coming out of the recession. So after the recession and after getting that settled out, and there was a couple of other small pieces of land that we had, Kevin K (38:52.124) hehe Frank Starkey (39:15.121) collateralized to the bank that we handed over, but basically got them to walk away from pursuing us further. We got that worked out and then we had to then figure out how to sell the land. Our joint venture partner, which was to have been Crosland on developing the ranch, they had gone to pieces during the recession, so they weren't there anymore. And the only buyers at those coming out of that were big hedge funds and equity funds. And they were only, their only buyers were national home builders and the national home builders, even the ones like Pulte who had tiptoed into traditional neighborhood development product before the recession. They were like, nope, nope, nope, backing up, never doing that again. They're. Kevin K (40:10.46) Yeah. Yeah. Frank Starkey (40:12.593) So everything that we had about TND and our entitlements, they're like, get that s**t out of there. TND is a four letter word. We will not do that. So we kind of de -entitled a lot of our entitlements and cut it back to just a rudimentary neighborhood structure and interconnected streets and some mix of uses and negotiated to sell it to one of these hedge funds or investment funds. who developed it with a merchant developer and sold it to national home builders. And they pretty quickly undid what was left of our neighborhood structure and developed it in a pretty conventional fashion. They did a really nice job on it and it soldered a premium to everything around it. They did a really great job with their common area landscaping, but they gutted the town center. They didn't even do a good strip center in lieu of it. They just did a freestanding public and a bunch of out parcel pieces. They squandered any opportunity to create a real there out of the commercial areas. They did beautiful parks and trails and amenities centers, but they just didn't get doing a commercial town center. Kevin K (41:36.444) What years was that when they developed that piece? Frank Starkey (41:40.337) We sold it to them in 2012 and I guess they started construction in 13 or so and it was really selling out through 2020. They still got some commercial that they're building on. I don't know if they've got any residential that they're still, I mean, it's kind of, its peak was in the 17, 18, 19 range and it was one of the top projects in the country and certainly in the Bay Area. and got a lot of awards. And yeah, so I don't, I can't complain too much about it because it sounds like sour grapes, but basically they didn't, I always just tell people I'll take neither blame nor credit for what they did because it's just not at all what we, there's very little of it that is what we laid out. So because that, so we, having sold that in 2012, that left me and Trey to go do what we wanted to do. All of the, you know, the rest of the family for that matter. And, Trey was ready to hang it up on development for a while. So he kept a piece out of the blue out of the ranch and settlements and started the blueberry farm. And I went and decided to do in town, small scale development. Ultimately ended up in Newport, Ritchie back in my own hometown. And then and that's that's what I've been doing since basically since 2015. Kevin K (43:06.844) Yeah. So I'm curious about a couple of things. So with the completion of the sale of all that and the development of both Longleaf and Starkey Ranch, I guess I'm curious how your family felt about the results of all those. Were people happy, not happy with the results? Was there... I'm just kind of curious about that dynamic because it's an interesting thing with a family property. And then... I guess secondly, with you being somebody who carried more a certain set of ideals for development, what did you take away from that whole process, especially with Starkey Ranch and anything, any useful lessons for the future for others relative to an experience like that? Frank Starkey (43:38.321) Mm -hmm. Frank Starkey (43:56.209) Couple of thoughts. As far as the whole family goes, we were, well, our cousins don't live here and they were less engaged in it intellectually and just personally. The four of us kids had grown up here and this was our backyard. They had grown up in St. Pete and one of them lived in North Georgia. And so it was, they just weren't as... emotionally invested in it. Not to say they didn't care, but it just didn't, it wasn't their backyard that had been developed. And you know, and we all are proud that three quarters of the ranch of the 16 ,000 acres, over 13, almost 13 ,000 of it is in conservation land that will always be the way it was when we were kids. Except there are no fences, which is very disorienting, but anyway. It's still, you know, that's the way granddad saw it when he was young and it will always be that way. So that's, we're all excited about that. And we pay attention to that more than we do to what happened on development. I think even long leave the, what, you know, the, the people in the surrounding area think we're sellouts and, people who have lived here. for five years or 10 years or 15 years are still just shocked and dismayed by the rapid pace of development. Well, it was a rapid pace of development, but we've been seeing it coming for 130 years now as a family. And I mean, it's why we put land into conservation going back to the early 70s when granddad started selling that. What people can see is the part along State Road 54, which is the visible stuff. which 10 years ago was a lot of pastors with long views and pleasant looking cattle who were money losing proposition as a agricultural business. But people don't see that. They just thought, it's a pretty pasture land. And how can you turn that into houses? It's so, you greedy b******s. So yeah, we get a lot of flak still to this day. I mean, and I've got a. Kevin K (46:12.092) Yeah. Frank Starkey (46:17.425) Trey's wife is a county commissioner and she gets all kinds of grief for being corrupt because people see our names on everything and they're like, well, they must be corrupt. No, you've never met any less corrupt people. And so there's kind of public blowback to it. I've said what I've said, what I just told you about how the development of the ranch did not comport with what we envisioned for it. And I don't, I don't shy away from saying that. I don't go around banging a drum about it. cause what's, what's the point of that? And a lot of people might think I just sound like sour grapes, but it, you know, it's, we, I think we all had our ugly cry about the ranch at some point. I mean, I remember when we were, we, the first closings of the ranch were in 2012 and it was a phased state down, but you know, they, they take a chunk at a time. So we stayed in our office, which was the house that we had grown up in at the ranch headquarters, right where the cattle pens and the horse barn, the truck barn and the shop and all of the ranch operations were. And the day that, eventually we had to move everything out and all that, almost all of that got torn, all of it got torn down. I remember having, I went out and stood by a tree and cried my face off for a while. Kevin K (47:46.044) Yeah. Frank Starkey (47:46.673) You know, it still chokes me up to think about it. And we all did that. I mean, but it wasn't an overnight thing to us. Whereas if you lived in a subdivision in the area that, by the way, had been a cattle ranch 20 years ago, you didn't, you know, you're not building, you're not living in a land that was settled by the other colonists. It seemed shockingly fast, just like overnight. my God, all of a sudden they're, they're. They're scraping the dirt the grass off of that and you know three weeks later. There's houses going up It's just shocking and and really disorienting we'd said we had seen it coming literally our whole lives We always knew that was going to be the case. So it was there was going to be something there our Feelings about the what what what it was compared to what we would like it to have been or another You know, that's what we have to wrestle with but the fact that it's developed We always saw that coming and people don't really understand that until because you just, you know, because it just it's perceived so differently. If you just drive by and see it developed one day when it wasn't, then if you grow up with an aerial photograph on the wall of dad's office and you know, we just know that that's not always going to be that way. Kevin K (49:05.82) Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk for a minute about what you're doing now then with the stuff in Newport Ritchie and the smaller scale infill stuff. What was like the first one, after shifting gears and doing that, what was like the first project you took on on your own? Frank Starkey (49:25.561) Much more much more fun topic. Thank you for shifting gears. I should have let you do that sooner Kevin K (49:30.204) Yeah. Frank Starkey (49:33.617) The, so Newport Richey is a pre -war town that was laid out in 1911 by Wayne Stiles, who I'm starting to learn more about was a pretty cool town, kind of B -list town planner who worked with people like John Nolan and the Olmsted brothers and was contemporary to them. Got a very competent little city plan for a small town and it has building stock in the downtown. the main street and Grand Boulevard downtown that dates to the 1920s and to the 1950s and 60s, kind of about half and half. And so it always had these good urban bones, some decent building stock, nothing great. It was never a wealthy town, so it doesn't have big grand Victorian houses down at Boulevard or anything, but it's got some good characteristics. But it had economically just cratered, just for years and really decades of disinvestment. moving out to the suburbs. It wasn't white flight in the traditional sense, but it was economically, it was the same just reallocation of wealth from the historic city into the suburbs and leaving the city behind. So in 2015, there was a, so downtown Newport, which he has a little lake, a about a five acre really lovely little. city park, a riverfront, and the central business district is right next to it. And then there's a pink Mediterranean revival hotel building from 1926 in that park. It kind of ties it all together. It's all the same ingredients that downtown St. Petersburg has, just in miniature and in bad shape. And St. Petersburg, believe it or not, which is now the best city in Florida, was really down in heels for most of my childhood. The Vanoi Hotel, which is their big pink hotel, was a hulking, you know, it looked like something out of Detroit when I was a kid, broken out windows and chain link fence around it and weeds and looked like a haunted hotel. So the Hacienda was kind of in that shape almost. And Downtown was doing, was, you know, just kind of sitting there with some honky tonk bars and a lot of, you know, just kind of moribund. Frank Starkey (51:54.705) commercial space. The city had bought out the First Baptist Church, which overlooked that lake right downtown when the church decamped out to the suburbs like all the other capitals in town. Even God's capital moved out to the suburbs. And the city bought it and tore down the church buildings and put a for sale sign on it, put it out for RFP a couple times, got crickets in response. Because no self -respecting developer would look at downtown New Port Richey as a place to develop. And I looked at it and as Robert Davis and Andres 20 will point out, we developers and architects and urbanists, we live in the future. You know, our brains are in what can be, not what is here now. And you've heard Andres say that the present is a distortion field. So I wasn't bothered by the fact that the neighborhoods around it weren't the greatest neighborhoods. They weren't terrible. Kevin K (52:39.8) Yeah. Yeah. Frank Starkey (52:48.177) And I looked at it and said, well, this is a pretty good gas piece of property. You got through overlooking this nice lake. There's a park. There's a downtown right there. We can work with this. So I asked the city to put it out for an RFQ, which they did. And Eric Brown, your buddy and mine, and one of your former guests on the podcast recently, was the architect for the buildings. And Mike Watkins, whom you also know, was the planner. I had them come in and do a Charette to develop a design for an apartment project on that former church property. And we negotiated a deal with the city to buy that property and we were off and running. So that was the first project. Just announcing that and showing, you know, as people were, some people were rightly skeptical that it would just end up being another low income housing thing because. This is Newport Richey. It's an economic shithole. Why would anybody put anything nice here? And surely, surely, even if you think it's going to be luxury, or if you're just saying it, it's obviously just going to, there's no way it can end up being anything but low income housing. And, but a lot of other people were excited to see that somebody was putting some investment in town. And it just kind of started to change people's thinking. Then we took on a commercial building downtown that when I was a kid had been a, IGA grocery store where we did our grocery shopping and it had, fallen into, you know, another moribund state as an antique mall that just needed to be fixed up and, and refreshing them live and up or something new. So we bought that and, did a severe gut job on it. divided it up into five tenant spaces, brought in a natural grocery store that was in town, but in a much terrible location. And a new microbrewery, the first microbrewery in town, and a taco place, and a kayak paddleboard outfitter, and a CrossFit gym. Kind of a dream lineup of revitalizing. Yeah. The kayak place didn't last very long. Kevin K (55:04.636) It's like the perfect mix. Frank Starkey (55:11.665) They were pretty much pretty ahead of the market and also just work. It wasn't their core business. They just didn't really know how to do it right. And then the taco place ended up getting replaced. The CrossFit gym outgrew the box and went to a much bigger location. And then we replaced them with an axe throwing business, which is killing it. So no joke, no pun intended. And then the microbrewery is still there. natural food store is still there. And then in the paddle boarding space, we now have a makers, a craft market that is multiple vendors that are, you know, like cottage industry makers selling under one roof. And we have a new bar and hamburger place and the former chocolate place. And they're also doing really well. And so between those two projects, it really, and then, you know, it's other, businesses started opening, new businesses opened downtown that just kind of had a new approach. They weren't honky tonks, they weren't just kind of appealing to a kind of a has -been demographic. And I just started changing the attitude. And the most remarkable occurrence was at one point, and this was around 2018, I just noticed that the online chatter in the general discussion among locals about Newport Richey kind of flipped from overwhelmingly negative people just running down the town, just saying this place is terrible. You know, get out while you can. There's nothing but crack heads and, and prostitutes and you know, it's just terrible. And to, Hey, this place is pretty cool. It's getting better. There's, it's got a lot of potential. And the naysayers started getting shattered down by the people who were more optimistic and positive about the town. And it just kind of hit that Malcolm Gladwell tipping point pretty quickly. And the attitude of the town and the self -image of people in town just has been significantly different ever since then. And then that's, of course, paid dividends and more investment coming to downtown. Now you can't find a place to rent for retail downtown. Frank Starkey (57:38.641) We actually have the problem now that there's too much food and beverage and the market isn't growing enough because we've got to bring in customers from outside of the immediate area because it's just not densely populated enough town yet. But that's so that's kind of where things started in New Port Richey. Kevin K (57:56.604) That's really, that's a great story. It's kind of, it's so indicative of also like what Marty Anderson has talked about. Let's sort of like finding your farm and a place that you care about and working there and making it better. And that's really cool. When it came to all this, were you self -financing? Were you working with investors? How was that process? Frank Starkey (58:13.169) Yeah. Frank Starkey (58:22.321) On the central, which is our apartment and on the 5800 main, which is the project that had been the IGA store, I have a financial partner on that. Who's another local who had made done well for himself in banking and lived away and moved back and was wanting to invest, but also to do some invest locally in a way that helps, you know, give something back to his own town. And that was my attitude as well. So our, our. Capital has been him and me on those two projects. And then I've got two other buildings that, one other building that I have a co -owner on and then another building I own solely by myself. So I've got a total of four projects. And all of the projects that I have are within one, two, three blocks, four blocks of each other. I was, you know, you mentioned the farm. I was very intentional about farm. I said, okay, my farm is New Port Richey. My farm yard is downtown and my barn is our office, which was right in the middle of all that. And the so that's, you know, and then now Mike and I live three blocks from all of that stuff. So we have we our new townhouse is three blocks east of downtown. Since 2018, we lived in a house that was four blocks south of downtown. So all of it was walkable. And even when downtown had just a couple of restaurants that were mostly just diners, one place that was pretty decent for lunch and salads and things, and a couple of pretty mediocre to crappy bars. I have a lot of friends here now and my office is here. And I immediately realized this is the most luxurious lifestyle I have had since college because the ability to walk everywhere and just live your life on foot is luxurious. It's just delightful. And my best friend now lives well in our old house, lives a block away. And we got to be friends living in town here and living a block from each other. And we would just ride bikes. And there was a whole other crew of Kevin K (01:00:24.284) You Frank Starkey (01:00:49.041) the people we'd ride bikes up the river in the evenings and maybe stop for a beer or maybe not and just enjoy the town. He really showed me just kind of, I smacked myself in the forehead one day when he talked about how nice it is to ride up the river during the sunset. I was like, wow, you mean you can just enjoy living in these walkable places? Because I'd always spent so much time trying to build them that I didn't spend much time just... f*****g enjoyment. Kevin K (01:01:19.676) I know, I know. It's a crazy thing. It's like it shouldn't be like a rarity or anything like that. We wish it was available to everybody, but it's wild. That was the thing about living in Savannah and that was like the hard part about leaving Savannah was, I think for a lot of us who have our ideals about walkability and everything, you kind of go back and forth about, do I want to spend my time? Frank Starkey (01:01:30.257) Yeah. Frank Starkey (01:01:37.489) Yeah, I bet. Kevin K (01:01:48.38) you know, working real hard and trying to create this as much as, as I can and, and live in a certain place where I, I guess have the economic opportunity to do that. Or do you also maybe just say, yeah, at a certain point, screw it. I just want to live somewhere where I can be, you know, do the things that I talk about all the time. So. Frank Starkey (01:02:06.513) Yeah, exactly. And it is hard to live in a place that's already kicking butt and do the things to make a place kick butt. So. Kevin K (01:02:20.124) Yeah, and in so many of these places, the places that we admire, and if you didn't get in early, you can't afford it at a certain point anymore anyway. So it's kind of a crazy deal. So as an architect, then would the infill projects, I mean, I know you worked with Eric and Mike and some others, but do you do any sketching or work on any of these sort of, is it a collaborative deal or do you at this point just be like, well, Frank Starkey (01:02:28.369) Right. Kevin K (01:02:46.268) I'm going to be a good client and be kind of hands off and just help direct my architects. Frank Starkey (01:02:50.865) I try to, I'm trying very hard to just be a good client and direct my architects. I'll let you ask Eric on whether I'm a good client or not, but that's probably been the project where I have been the most, I've left the most to the architects to on the design side. On the, the one of the commercial building that I owned by myself was a, building that didn't have any windows, two stories right on one of our main streets on a corner. So two full facades with essentially no windows. And it needed new windows storefront and upstairs. So it basically just needed a whole facade because there was just a big windowless bunker. But it had existing structural columns or structural considerations for where I could put windows. And it ended up being a interesting, challenging facade composition project. Anyway, I designed that building. And also it was a double high space where the second floor was just a mezzanine. And we closed in the second floor to make it into a mixed use building. So that because it had always been a nightclub or restaurant and it was too big as being a story and a half to for that, for this market to support because the upstairs are just kind of. You know, just sucked. So I was like, this needs to just be a regular size restaurant on the ground floor and then offices above. So I did the architecture on that, including the build out for the restaurant. I had some help on that on the layout, but I did the design, interior design stuff on that. I wish I had, I love the facade design process. And that was a really fun project. And the result was, you know, it's, it's unusual because of the constraints that it had. So, but it's, I think it's a fun, it's a good result. but if I were doing more projects, I mean, I really feel like I don't do architecture every day. So I'm not, yeah, certainly I'm not going to do construction drawings because I don't have that, capability just cause I don't, I mean, I have the technical ability to do it. Frank Starkey (01:05:15.249) and I am now licensed, I could sign and seal it, but I don't want to. And I haven't signed and sealed anything yet. So my goal is to be more of a client than I am an architect. Kevin K (01:05:27.868) So in all this stuff and going back to even your initial work with Longleaf and others, you've obviously tried to create well -designed places and beautiful places. I know you said you had some thoughts kind of based on one of the other podcasts I had where we were going back and forth and talking about beauty in buildings and the value of that versus sort of utilitarian values as well. How have you tried to balance all that and really create? beauty and do you find it at conflict with also making real estate work? Frank Starkey (01:06:04.753) I don't find beauty in conflict with making real estate work at all. I think it's critical. I don't think that things have to be built expensively in order to be beautiful. And my comment to you in my email was about y 'all had had a discussion on this, your podcast before last. about and you had said you can't legislate beauty no code in the no amount of code in the world is going to result in beauty and I've always thought about that because I agree with you that codes by their nature don't result in beauty that that human love results in beauty I mean that's you know because that's a it's a it's a spiritual outcome not a I mean, it's an outcome of the spirit. I don't mean that metaphysical terms, just, but it's something that comes from a level of care that's not, that doesn't happen from just conformance. Kevin K (01:07:10.94) Yeah, it's a value you bring to a project basically. It's something you really care to do. Yeah. Frank Starkey (01:07:16.529) Yes, that said, the American Vignoli and other handbooks that were used by builders, not by architects, but by people who were just building buildings and designing them, designing and building buildings by hand in the 1800s and early 1900s. resulted in scads of what we consider beautiful buildings with a capital B because it codified, maybe not in a sense of regulation, but in a sense of aspiration and guidance. It codified a way to arrive at competence with beautiful principles underlying it. And I wonder, it's... It's a hypothesis. I've not proved it or even set out to prove it. But if you could require that people follow the American Vignole as an example, or something else like that, where the principles of proportion are codified and they're followable, then I think you probably would still have to have some coaching. But I think you would get a whole lot closer than you can in the, because it's more like a playbook than it is a rule book for producing a competent design. Competent in the classical sense. Kevin K (01:08:54.556) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin K (01:09:02.236) Yeah, I think that's fair. It's more like coaching people about people who care. If you want to do good things, here are simple rules and patterns to follow that are not going to get you the Parthenon necessarily, but they're going to get you certainly at a minimum like a B building, like a B or a B minus building if you follow these rules. And if you do them really well and execute the details well, you could end up with an A plus building. Yeah. Frank Starkey (01:09:34.641) Yeah. Yeah, and it's something that McKim, Mead, and White can follow that and come up with something spectacular. But the same underlying principles are in every garden variety inline building on a street. Because individual urban buildings and places that we love are individually not spectacular. It's the accumulation of be buildings that are singing in the same key that makes a good chorus. Not everything can be a soloist anyway. Kevin K (01:10:11.996) And certainly, a lot of the people who produced the buildings in that era that you described, late 19th, early 20th century, I mean, there were a whole lot of just illiterate immigrants to the United States, ones who were building all that. And they didn't need 200 pages of construction drawings to follow it, but they did have patterns and illustrations and guides that they could follow. Frank Starkey (01:10:25.041) Yeah. Kevin K (01:10:42.46) and just some kind of basic standards. Yeah. Frank Starkey (01:10:43.217) And also a general cultural agreement on what looks good and what doesn't. And that's what I think you can't recreate from start, I mean, from scratch, because it's got to, that culture builds up and accumulates over decades and generations of practice. Kevin K (01:11:09.148) No doubt. Have you seen with the buildings that you have done in Newport, Richey, has there been other people who've looked at what you've done and tried to essentially say, kind of continue to raise the bar with good looking buildings? Frank Starkey (01:11:24.209) Unfortunately, I can't say that has happened yet. There hasn't been that much new construction in New Port Richey. And I don't, I can't think of any off the top of my head that have been done since we built the central, for example, which is really the only new ground up build. There's another apartment project and apartments and mixed use downtown, but it was designed in 2006 and then it was stalled and it finished about the same time we did, but it has nothing. you know, didn't follow others at all. We did have a lot of people. And this is something I would recommend, which I did accidentally. I didn't put really good drawings of the buildings into the public before they were built. I made a real now here's a blunder. There's a my blunder was I allowed the elevations of the buildings. to be the first thing that got into the public view because they were required as part of the permitting process. And an elevation drawing of a building is the architectural equivalent of a mugshot. It's representative and it's accurate, but it's accurate, but it's not representative. So it doesn't show you what a person looks like. It shows you just facts about their face. And so it shows you facts about a building, but not what it's gonna look like. So people saw the elevations. of what Eric could design, which were intentionally very simple rectangular boxes with regular, very competent, beautiful classical facades, but they looked really flat, they looked really boxy, and they looked terrible. They couldn't be at elevation, there's no depth on it. So people were like, holy s**t, of course he's building, I mean, they look like barracks. And so people lost their minds. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So we quickly put together some 3D renderings. based on a quick sketchup model, we illustrated the hell out of them with landscaping and showed what a view down the street would look like. And it was a much better view. And that's really how you perceive the buildings. And so people were like, OK, well, if it looks like that, I guess I won't oppose it so much. But they were still rightfully skeptical. And so I shouldn't, yes, do not let the first thing that people see of your buildings be an elevation drawing. But the. Frank Starkey (01:13:50.769) renderings that we put together were not very detailed and they didn't show how refined the buildings are and how much architectural detail and character they have to them. And I just didn't, because I just didn't have time to model it, I was like, get something out there that's just kind of, you know, the building's really, you know, this is about the space of the street and the landscaping and the view to the lake and all that. Once the buildings were built, we had people say, stop us in the street and say, man, I was opposed to this at the beginning, but this is so beautiful. Kevin K (01:14:19.404) You Frank Starkey (01:14:19.505) Thank you for building this. I really love it. It's great. And that was the goal. And we really were intending to not make them spectacular buildings, but really nice buildings that really brought out a nice moment in the urban design. So they wrap around the lake. And then Central Avenue is a street that takes off from the lake or terminates in the lake. And so we have towers on the two corners that kind of mark that entry to Central Avenue and then buildings that mirror each other across Central. It's very formal and competent, but it's not overbearing. And the buildings are up to the street, the parking's in the back. So urbanistically, they're doing what they need to do. And which also, you know, that people, that's one of those things that if you describe to people, they don't really get it. But if you... show it to them and they see, you know, and you say, you know, this could have been parking here instead of a building. Then they understand, yeah, that's really nice. Kevin K (01:15:26.364) Yeah, no doubt. So after all of this, do you recommend the path of architect as developer to other people, especially young people? Frank Starkey (01:15:37.937) Yeah, if you've got an architecture degree, you've got a great basis for development. A funny story, when I was in college, I had a friend who was in one of the student ministries that I was very involved with who wanted to become a, she was studying linguistics and she wanted to go work for Wycliffe Bible translators and go work with some obscure people group and. discover the lexicon and translate the Bible. That's what Wycliffe Bible translators do. And there were some folks who lived in the area who did exactly that. And they had been architecture students at Rice. And so we went to their house for dinner and they told us about their path of how they got into translating the Bible. They worked with some little people group in Papua New Guinea that had like 200 people who were all the only people on the planet who spoke this dialect of this language and their task was to Learn their language not get killed learn their language Develop a lexicon of their language and then translate Use that to translate the Bible into their language. So it's and they described that as a multi -level problem -solving task for which their architecture degrees had perfectly prepared them. And so they described architecture as a multi -level problem solving task, right? You have to, everything from beauty to plumbing, structure, construction, durability, all of those things that Vitruvius told us about, you're solving for all of those things with one solution. So the ability to think and... Kevin K (01:17:00.476) Huh. Huh. Frank Starkey (01:17:28.273) and solve a problem on multiple dimensions at the same time is a great skill for life, whatever you're going to do. And I tell people who want to go into architecture, do it because even if you don't end up as an architect, it's still a great preparation for a lot of different things you could do from translating the Bible to, you know, technology things and real estate development. So real estate development is definitely a generalist pursuit. You know, I know a lot about. a lot of things from I'm not a, you know, I'm more than just a jack of all trades, but I'm certainly not a master of many, but it's helpful to, you know, I know a lot about drainage. I know a lot about regional planning. I know a lot about how codes work and how planning works and, and, and politics and things like that. There are a lot of things that architecture school doesn't do a good job of teaching in terms of teamwork and people. management both of working with other people and managing teams. That's something that most people will have to pick up as a skill from architecture school. But if you're an architect and you want to become a developer, I say go do it. Kevin K (01:18:45.788) Yeah, that's great. I love that, I love that. That's a great explanation. So, all right, Frank, we should probably wrap it here. This has been really cool. And for me especially, I love these chances to get to know people better that I've known for a little while anyway. So, that's... Frank Starkey (01:18:53.777) All right. Frank Starkey (01:19:03.441) Yeah, Kevin, I feel like we've always known each other and we've had a lot of mutual friends, but we've never just sat down and talked at this kind of length. So I've enjoyed it too. Sometimes I'd like to interview you the other way around, although I'm picking up a lot by listening to your podcast, which I really do enjoy it. So I'll put a shout out to that as well. Okay. Kevin K (01:19:10.332) I know. Yeah. Kevin K (01:19:17.244) Ha ha. Kevin K (01:19:20.923) Yeah, well, that'd be fun. We could turn the table anytime we want, that'd be fine. So, all right, thanks. I appreciate it, Frank. Frank Starkey (01:19:30.065) And one of these days I'd like to come see you in Kansas City and see what you're doing out there. Kevin K (01:19:33.788) Yeah, please do. I would love your feedback on some of the things that I'm doing and others that I'd like to do. And, you know, we all have kind of a different path of what we're doing, but we have a lot of similar goals and ideals. So it's always interesting to see how different people are working in whatever they're doing. Frank Starkey (01:19:47.505) Yeah, good. Frank Starkey (01:19:52.241) Yeah, absolutely. You've got a fun job doing a podcast, so good for you. And you're doing a good job getting a lot of voices out here in addition to your own. Kevin K (01:19:56.092) Now let's... Kevin K (01:20:01.148) Yeah, I enjoy it. It's been, I think this one might be number 50 with you that I'll release. And so that feels like, I'm hitting a milestone where it feels like it's a real thing now. So that's kind of cool. Frank Starkey (01:20:08.913) Wow. Frank Starkey (01:20:14.673) Yeah, very good. Kevin K (01:20:17.692) All right, Frank, I appreciate the time. All right, you too, take care. Frank Starkey (01:20:20.433) Thanks, Kevin. Have a great week. Bye -bye.

Aaron Lubeck and I sat down in Cincinnati, during CNU 32, to talk a lot about housing, policy, and how to actually make change. Aaron writes a Substack called On Housing, where he frequently explores these issues. And, he’s one of the founders of Southern Urbanism, which has a terrific array of writers and feature pieces.

Some of the posts we discuss:

I am Going to Gring Back the Sears Home

What’s Next for Jane Jacobs’ Sidewalk Ballet?

A Brief Detour to Honor My Old Lady

How North Carolina became a leader in building code reform to enable affordability.

From my archives:

Let Urban be Urban, Let Suburban be Suburban

The video of my presentation on Suburban vs Urban

Mom

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

I join my favorite Akron-ite, Jason Segedy, in Akron, to talk about northeast Ohio, Strong Towns, and generational roles. We do this while sitting outside a former major tire factory, in the tire capital of the world. What a cool scene it was. It makes me think I need video for these discussions.

Jason and I seem to have a lot in common, and he’s the kind of person I can chat with for hours. As I told him toward the end, I also just really love and admire people who love their town. It’s become such a rare quality these days, so perhaps I just notice it more. But it’s energizing and endearing to find people who have a deep love affair with place.

We spend a fair amount of time talking generational issues, and no small amount critiquing our own cohort - Generation X. What’s next for us? Will our age group step up to be the adults in the room, or will we lean into our well-earned cynicism and be lifelong critics?

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Two of last year’s most popular guests return to talk all things KC real estate, and especially urban core development. It’s a challenge right now, and we talk about why, and when things might change.

We also hit on some topics that people like to avoid, such as this piece on surging exurban development in our region. Do urbanists understand how little we produce, compared to what’s happening in the burbs?

Finally, we discuss the tangled web of drug stores closing in the urban core, and the importance of beauty in the urban environment. In fact, last week, I wrote about this topic here. And, for more, see this great video by former Charleston Mayor Joe Riley:

For Midwesterners, we need to do better.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Every so often, I get into the personal advice game. Perhaps it’s a side effect of being a father, as well as hitting a point in life where you’ve seen and done a lot. I like to share whatever wisdom I’ve learned, in the vain hopes that someone else can benefit from my experience. That’s especially true for younger people who have a passion for cities, for development, and for making beautiful places.

Along those lines, in this episode, I discuss my pet peeve with the word “they,” how to think about issues in your community, and what I’ve learned about external locus of control vs internal locus of control.

Get building, get positive and work towards a better future.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Transcript:

Kevin K (00:01.26)

Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. Thanks for joining me. It's been a while since I've had the opportunity to do a solo podcast and just talk about a few things that are going on and some thoughts in my mind. And today seemed to work out really well for that in this week. So I'm going to share a few things that are going on and hopefully give you a little bit of inspiration in your day.

If it doesn't inspire you, you can send me a note as well and say, hey, you were completely off base there or lost and that's fine too. Of course, I can't help but record these now and think about my friend Chuck Morrone's comments about my own voice and how things sound. I think if you do anything like this, you're the kind of person you probably never liked the sound of your own voice, but it's good to know that others respond to it and like it.

And I'm happy to keep doing these. There's a lot going on right now. There is coming up here in May is the Strong Towns National Gathering followed by the Congress for the New Urbanism. It's a big deal in the urbanism world. Those annual confabs, which I have gone to for a number of years. Don't know that I'll keep going to those indefinitely, but I still think there's value in that or similar groups like them.

depending on what your own interest is. I'm also keenly aware that the National Town Builders Association does a couple great get togethers every year. Those are, that tend to be people more on the development side, as well as the Urban Guild, which is a group that I'm a little bit affiliated with as well, which is mostly designers and architects, but it's a lot of people doing really, really cool stuff to try to make the world a more beautiful and better place.

They have a get -together coming up this later later this year in November, which will be in Huntsville, Alabama And I'm gonna try to make it to that as well. Don't know if I can do all these things. It's a challenge when you've got a family and work and everything else, but I do always enjoy getting together with colleagues and learning about what other people are doing Figuring out what I can take back to my own community and just getting inspired from other people. So

Kevin K (02:28.844)

I have always enjoyed that. I suppose it appeals to the extroverted nature that I have. But I certainly enjoy getting that inspiration from others. So I want to talk a little bit today on a different tack. This is not necessarily a new subject locally, but it's something that's been on my mind. And bear with me as I go through this, but there's a new...

There's a new attraction in Kansas City that opened late last year. We are among many cities now in that we have a Ferris wheel near the downtown area because you know how these things are, all the trends come and go and activities come and go. And right now it seems like every city has to have a Ferris wheel, a big Ferris wheel for people to get up and view the whole city and everything else. And, and, uh,

I've been on it, it's kind of fun. I understand why people like them and they're visually very distinct and interesting. The first notable one I can remember that was new, I guess, was in London, which was pretty striking. I remember at the time thinking, well, that was kind of strange, but now it's gone into the realm of common and you see these attractions popping up just about everywhere.

But what really interested me was the response to the Ferris wheel in the local community and the discussion boards and everything else. Actually, when I say discussion boards, it almost sounds like an old man's term at this point, but probably more, I guess I would say on social media, which is where a lot of conversation happens. And it's fascinating just how negative.

the reaction was to me. And I think one of the things that I most commonly heard, where there were two things really, which is why did they put that there? And why did the city fund that instead of fixing the streets? So all interesting for me because it's all very telling about how people react to projects, building structures that are built.

Kevin K (04:52.044)

in a community. And I want to talk about that for a minute and what it means for each of us and what I think we, what mindset I think we need to have that is more productive if we want to really improve our own communities. So, you know, I don't, I'm not one to ever really assail people or blame people for the thoughts that come out of their mouths because, or because this is,

the world we live in, the world we live in is driven by the experience that people have had over many years. Development, in the development world, we've gone to from a place where development was almost entirely private sector 100 years ago to now where there's an enormous amount of public sector development or public -private partnerships that happen. There's an awful lot of things that happen now.

through government and from the top down that never would have happened 100 years ago. And I say all that because it really came to mind when hearing people talk about the Ferris wheel project. The first one being, why do we have that Ferris wheel when we could have been fixing the potholes? Well, the Ferris wheel in this case, in our city, was a private development. This was an enterprise that a local developer

bought the land for, came up with the plan, financed it and built it. This is not a city project. So it's kind of easy for us to, who know that sort of thing, to then just mock people for being stupid, right? You're stupid. How do you not know that that's like a private project? But I get it because we do have so many things nowadays that are in fact either driven directly,

by city government, have a partnership with city government, or require city government approval to happen. And it's very easy, I think, for a lay person who is not in the design, development, construction world to not understand that and to think everything is a city project. But in this case, and probably like many others around the country, this was just a local entrepreneur.

Kevin K (07:18.764)

doing a project with land he owned that that he expects to make a profit on with this attraction and a whole series of attractions next to it that actually seemed kind of cool and I'm excited to see how this all builds out over the next year or so as he continues to build it and and that really kind of tied into the to the other comment which is you know, why did they build it there? and I admit

I want to admit right up front, I have a real pet peeve. And that pet peeve is the word they. And this is something I've had for a long time. And I wrestle with this because I hear it all the time. And it's just this notion that there is some group of people out there that just make all these decisions for what happens in your community.

whether that's city council people or people in private rooms or whatever. But we have arrived at this place where we just all tend to think that there is a they that can be either blamed or praised for whatever goes on. And I find that really troubling because it's not a they. This was a person. This was a person and his development team.

That made the decisions and and built this thing and that's very common In our city there. I hear this so often, you know, why did why did they build that apartment complex? and You know our city does this and this why do they do that? And I think there's this this thing there's this thing this phrase that my wife has taught me from psychology which is called external locus of control and

The notion being that if you kind of give up control of a lot of things in your own life and decisions, you have essentially given that control over to others. That's an external locus of control as to an internal locus of control, which is saying I am responsible for my actions and what happens and what I see and do in my life. An external locus of control means like, eh, you know,

Kevin K (09:41.996)

I'm just gonna let whatever happens happens. And I think we all balance this in our own lives or we can't possibly control everything. But I also think it's kind of led to this symptom where we see where we often think there is a they out there that is imposing their will on me or on us. And that's just not.

Even in our very complicated world, that's not how it works. But again, I don't necessarily blame people for thinking that because we have gotten to this place where there is so much often confusion about who is doing what and who is responsible for what. There are politicians who even if they didn't do something, they try to take credit for it. That's long been a standard in politics is to deflect the blame and accept.

you know, accept the compliments for whatever happens. You know, if something is good, name it and claim it, whether you had anything to do with it or not. And I think that gives the impressions that the impression that politicians and public sector people often have way more control over what happens in a community than they really do. And so I really wish we could get away from that thinking and that use of the word they.

And to really just talk more specifically about who exactly has done something. Why, you know, who is that individual that took it upon themselves to create that project and why. And it's funny because in this case, the Ferris wheel in Kansas city is in a bit of an odd location. If you, if you go there, it's right next to a freeway. It does provide a great view of downtown when you're up on the Ferris wheel. And it's neat before this in front of the skyline, but it's right next to a freeway, which is a little odd.

And I can imagine a series of other locations in the city where the same thing would have been really cool and better. And in fact, there is a major park nearby that is up on a hill would have been an incredible site for it. But the parks department didn't pursue that route. They didn't try to do a project or this project. And instead you have a developer who did and who took it upon themselves to do it.

Kevin K (12:08.076)

And that was the place where he had the opportunity to make it work. And I hope, I really hope it works. I think it will work. I think it's going to be a cool attraction and sort of entertainment area for the city, but that's how those things go. And I want to, I just want to encourage all of us to kind of get beyond this notion that there is a they out there. And, and one thing that I, I would just add to this is that, um,

You know, it kind of feeds into a mindset. I think when you approach something like, they are doing something to me, or they are doing this, they are doing that, it can kind of feed into a real negative feedback loop that can be a real trap for people in a community. Because there's always something going on. There are things to not like and things to like.

And I think that every community, every society has problems and we want to try to solve problems. And we're a time and a place where I think a lot of our cities do have problems. And I would never be the first to say otherwise. We have a lot of issues and things to resolve. I mean, in my opinion, the worst of our problems tend to come from kind of a utopian thinking.

coupled with the desire to force utopian ideas from the top down on people who maybe aren't ready for it and are often very bad ideas. But that said, I really hope that we can kind of find a way to avoid the forces and the voices of negativity. And I think that use of the word they,

almost always leads to like a negative mindset and a negative commentary. And again, as the idea that your locus of control is outside you for your community and for your neighborhood, as opposed to thinking about ways that you and others can take control yourselves and just do things and do positive things for your place. So one of the things that I would just say is, you know,

Kevin K (14:33.516)

try not to give in to the voices of negativity, doom and gloom, and grievance. Sometimes it seems to me as if we have a grievance industrial complex in our country that there are people who have so many grievances about life or society, but they move from issue to issue and they carry with them the same anger, the same...

sort of negative vibes, no matter what the concern or topic is. And that's problematic. It's problematic for the person, I would say. I once heard a quote, I can't remember who said it, but it's something to the effect of, bitterness is a poison that you think you can use it against your enemies, but ultimately it ends up destroying you.

And I think there's a lot of truth to that. There have been things in my life that I have been bitter about and I have wrestled with internally. And I have had to learn that that bitterness that I might've been holding onto was actually causing me physical harm. And that physical harm might've been something minor like just like loss of sleep and loss of sleep turning into...

negative moods or whatever, but it also might be something more that you get so consumed by negative thoughts that it's very hard for you to do anything constructive in your life or to be somebody that others want to be around and to do good things with. And so I would just humbly suggest that as much as you could, especially if you're a younger person,

embrace a positive vision for the future. And there's a very popular sort of meme going around lately that's just about we need to be building things. We need to build more things. And I think that's true. I think we're in, I think we're kind of coming, I hope we're coming out of an era where there's a lot of vitriol and negativity.

Kevin K (16:58.156)

which presents an incredible opportunity for people who have a positive vision of what the future could be and what to do about it. And to actually build yourself up, to build others up around you, to build things physically. So obviously, a lot of what I talk about on this podcast is about designing, building, developing things. And I think there's unbelievable opportunity.

for anybody in any walk of life to get into a place where you're actually participating in building something physical, which is an, there are just immense emotional rewards for seeing that happen. So as somebody who was trained as an architect, I obviously love that very much. But I think for anybody that I see, whatever it is, the more you can create things and build things physically,

is incredibly just valuable to yourself as well as people beyond you. Right now, or even I would say the last decade, there have been so many very, very loud voices that seem to push the other way and think we shouldn't be building things in that. I would just say specific to the world that I know the best.

that developers are evil and they're awful and they're money grabbing people and we need to take our pound of flesh as much as we can and punish them. And there's just an awful lot of vitriol and hatred of developers and of development that is, in the end, it kind of reflects that problem with bitterness because...

People are going to build things. And if you and your community embrace an attitude that developers and development is bad, you are creating a recipe for your own decline, ultimately. Just in the same way that carrying bitterness from something that happened years ago can really lead to just personal harm, carrying bitterness towards change for the future is only going to make your place.

Kevin K (19:17.516)

less and less relevant and less attractive to others who want to have a positive future. So that doesn't mean of course, and I feel like I always have to qualify this and say it that like, that doesn't mean all development is great and all, you know, and I love all of it. There's a lot of terrible development. There's a lot of, there's a lot of bad architects. There's a lot of bad developers. There's bad buildings that are built. We should always try to and strive.

to do as good a job as we possibly can to try to build beauty in our world. I'm a firm believer in that building beauty is so deeply important. It's for the human spirit and for life in communities. And we don't talk nearly enough about building beautiful things, building beautiful places. Even if you're not in the building world, something as simple as planting a flower garden that adds beauty to the world.

is incredible. It's so important. And I wish we all could do a little bit more of that. So of course do good things, but you have to have this attitude of improvement and positivity and that activity in the world is a good thing. And that a utopian aim, while maybe it comes from a good place, is something to be deeply concerned about, especially when somebody is pushing their utopian aim.

on somebody else. So build yourself up, build others up around you, challenge yourself to get better all the time. This is kind of a funny sidebar, but I've definitely read my share probably of self -help stuff in my life, because I think I'm probably the kind of person that's always looking for ways to just improve what I'm...

whatever I'm doing, maybe optimize a little bit. But I do, I have at different points in my life challenged myself to do things that were uncomfortable, that I was not good at, that I didn't really have in my background. And often did that just as a way to force myself to do something that maybe was uncomfortable. I am by no means, you know, like,

Kevin K (21:43.244)

some of the more intense really optimizers and everything else in the world. But, you know, for example, when I was a kid, I was a very unhealthy, a very sickly kid. I had asthma that was really, it was actually life -threatening for me as a child. And I eventually with time, with some medication and with growth,

basically outgrew it. But I didn't really start to fully outgrow it until I was like almost out of like high school, I would say. And so there was a lot of like athletic stuff that I just wasn't really able to fully participate in when I was a young person, because I just didn't have the stamina, the long stamina to get through things. So when I got older, when I turned 40,

I resolved that I wanted to, I had started to do a little bit of long distance running and resolved that I wanted to run a half marathon, which of course I had never run any distance anywhere close to it before. And I actually completed my first half marathon when I was 41 and I did it three years in a row. And actually each year improved my time from the year before.

And all of that was a tremendous physical challenge for me to do because I had never been a long distance runner. Um, but I will tell you the feeling that I got from that when I would complete those races and the memory that was still with me about, uh, how challenging it was just for me to breathe. When I was a kid, the fact that I could overcome and do those things, it meant a lot to me. And it gave me.

a lot of confidence and the feeling that if I could do that, I could do other things as well. Lately, I've been doing something similar and I don't like to talk too much here about just personal things that are going on. But now that I'm into my fifties, I have been trying some things that have also been challenging for me. And so I've been doing some martial arts stuff the last couple of years. And this year I've actually started.

Kevin K (24:07.5)

doing jujitsu classes in earnest for the first time. And that has not been my world at all. I mean, when I go to these classes and I take a beating and it's hard and you know, you learn all the things that are going on. You know, this is not the world that I came from where of, you know, wrestling and combatives and that sort of thing.

but I have really learned to enjoy it. And especially with the jujitsu training, the more I go, the more I just really get into it and enjoy what I'm learning. And the feeling that I get of it making me stronger and more capable, and the fact that, you know, that it's hard, and it is really hard, that it's hard, but I can...

get through a class and even if it's a rough day or whatever, afterwards I have this feeling that I really did something. And so I share that again just to say that it's important to challenge ourselves to do better, to try to, sometimes maybe to push on things in your own personality and your own world that you know that you struggle with or that are not your thing.

And I'm a firm believer in trying to push through some of your weaknesses whenever you can and challenge yourselves and have that vision that, yes, I can overcome things. I can do things. And embrace a vision that you are capable of doing a lot of things. So, you know, being, I understand why a lot of people are very risk averse and you kind of get in a lane and you just stay in that lane.

in your life. But being too risk averse can really prevent incredible self -improvement. And you can miss out on a lot of successes in life that you probably never knew that you were even capable of. That's not to say like be reckless and just take any risk you want. Of course not. But don't be fearful either. And really lean towards

Kevin K (26:31.372)

this notion of building yourself up and then building others up along the way. Because the more you build yourself up, you will find that people are drawn to that. People want positive things to cling onto and to take themselves along for a ride for something that's good and interesting and positive. People like to build things. And I...

And I often think that we don't talk enough about how people like to overcome difficulty. And so difficulty in and of itself is not a bad thing. I think it can often be a really good thing. And so push through that difficulty as Bono might say, don't let the b******s grind you down. Right? So.

That's were a few thoughts for today. I think one last thing. I have no idea where this is going to go, but in the spirit of, again, pushing through and trying to do things, I had a personal interest in real estate development since I was a college kid, and maybe even younger. I don't know. It's hard to remember at this point. But.

But there were so many steps along the way where I could have taken a risk to do something. And I took a few, but I just never really fully dived into that to see what I was capable of. And I think what for me is that that lesson is you tend to regret the things you didn't do more than the things that you did do. And I certainly regret that when I was younger, I didn't take more risks and more proactive steps to push through.

my lack of knowledge, my own questions about risk when it came to maybe developing some of my own building projects. So this week I actually put in an offer on a commercial property for the first time that I have ever done. I've never done this before. Sent a letter of intent over to purchase something. I don't know if anything will come of it. I hope something will come of it. I have a great idea for a project.

Kevin K (28:52.62)

on the site. It's not a terribly large project. I think it's kind of in a wheelhouse that I can execute really well, a fairly small project. But I'm challenging myself to push through my own aversion to just taking that next step. And we'll see what happens. So hopefully something comes of it, and I'll be able to share some details as it goes.

And if not, there will probably be another opportunity right around the corner. And that's the message that I would hope to share is there's always opportunity around the corner. Don't think so much about who they are and what they are doing and think so much about you and what you are doing, what you can do, what you and your friends or others or your family can do. And have that internal locus of control and...

Don't imagine that the world does everything to you. Create your own world in the process. Thanks so much for listening. If you wouldn't mind sharing the podcast, hitting the like or follow button on your favorite app and encouraging others to do the same, I'd really appreciate it. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. This is the Messy City Podcast. Be talking to you soon. Bye.

Chuck Marohn, the President and Founder of Strong Towns, joins me to talk about his newest book, “Escaping The Housing Trap: The Strong Towns Response to the Housing Crisis.” Along the way, we also discuss the upcoming Strong Towns National Gathering in Cincinnati, a different way cities can think about building and financing new sports facilities, and our different takes on the place-making of Disney World.

If you have an interest in attending the National Gathering in May, I highly recommend it. Register at this link, and use this code for Discounts: KEVINK2024

For some background on Walt Disney’s history in Kansas City, check out Thank You Walt Disney.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Episode Transcript:

Kevin K (00:00.964)

Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I'm delighted today to have my friend Chuck Morrone on the show. Mr. Strong Towns, Chuck, it is so good to see you and I'm really excited to talk with you today.

Charles Marohn (00:16.848)

Hey, I'm really happy to be here. And here's the amazing thing. I listen to your podcast. You have a great voice for this. I mean, I have this horrible voice that people have grown used to. But when you turn on, you're like, hey, this is the messy city podcast. I'm like, yeah, man, you should be doing way more of this.

Kevin K (00:37.38)

Well, at least you didn't say that I have a great face for radio. So.

Charles Marohn (00:40.72)

Well, you and I both.

Kevin K (00:44.484)

Oh man, well, it's fun. You know, I'm still very much an amateur at the podcasting gig. And it's been fun to learn and experiment with it. You've been doing it for quite a while. And so I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you on this show. And we've got a couple of, a couple of fun topics, but in a couple of things that I think will get more serious and interesting as we go. And we'll just get through whatever we can get through. But.

Charles Marohn (01:11.568)

That sounds great. Well, you've been having all my friends on, you know, so like, yeah, here's Howard. I'm like, wait a sec. That was a blast. And then you had, you had Seth Zeran on recently. I'm like, that's really cool. So yeah, it's been fun. You know, I, I know you and I know, uh, you know, some, some of the ways that you think about things. And I really am. I love chatting with you, um, hearing you have these.

Kevin K (01:15.172)

I try to do that.

Kevin K (01:19.076)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Charles Marohn (01:38.704)

fun conversations that we sometimes get to have in person. Hearing you have them with other people is just, it's a delight for me. So yeah.

Kevin K (01:46.02)

Well, that's very great, very flattering to hear. You know, it's one of the fun things you've probably experienced this too. One of the fun things about having a podcast is you get to choose who you want to talk to. And there's a lot of people that we know and we've all known for a long time that I get to learn so much more about. And for me, that's been one of the most enjoyable aspects of this is just getting to really know people's backstories a lot more. And so that's been a great pleasure.

Charles Marohn (02:04.496)

Sure.

Kevin K (02:16.036)

So.

Charles Marohn (02:16.4)

Yeah, yeah. Well, you you know everything about me, so we don't need to talk about.

Kevin K (02:20.1)

We know a lot about we know a lot about Chuck. Chuck, fortunately, shares his backstory a lot, although I'm sure there's tons we could get into. I'd rather save the time for some other topics, but you. You do have an awful lot going on right now in this moment, and I want to talk about a couple of those things. One is you have a book, a new book, the strong escaping the housing trap, the strong towns response. This is your.

Charles Marohn (02:32.24)

Yeah, it's the least interesting part.

Kevin K (02:49.636)

third book, right? Yeah, okay. Tell me a little bit about why an engineer wanted to write a book about housing.

Charles Marohn (02:51.12)

Yeah, yeah. Number three. Yep.

Charles Marohn (03:01.52)

Well, the reality of the story is that I, in the early days of writing the Strong Town's blog, was thinking about a book the entire time. I mean, I started writing this three days a week blog back in 2008, and to me, it was building up to a book. I had a couple publishing companies and agents contact me.

And when I gave them my book proposal, it was just blah, blah, blah. It was, it was like 2000 word book. Like it didn't make sense. It was only when I got hooked up with Wiley publishing where we stepped back and we said, okay, this is actually multiple books, put this together in like the compilation of what you think it should be. And I said, well, I, I think I should write the book on finance first. I think I should write the book on transportation. Second, third would be housing. And then there's a couple others that are coming.

And so we kind of agreed to a five book series that would kind of encapsulate the strong towns conversation. Housing happened to be the third. And the crazy thing about it is I didn't plan to release it in the middle of a housing crisis where everybody's talking about housing and housing's like on the lips of, you know, every political debate and every public policy conversation. It just so fortuitously happened that we're dropping our ideas in the middle of this kind of housing.

you know, policy feeding frenzy right now. But.

Kevin K (04:27.556)

Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting aspect of that. I know obviously there's a long timeline to write a book anyway, to write it, get it published, edited, and all that sort of stuff. So I'm curious, like, what has changed in your mind from the point when you first started thinking about writing this book to actually getting it out today?

Charles Marohn (04:48.624)

It's, so Daniel Hergis and I co -wrote this, and I know you had him on a couple weeks ago. It was a really good conversation. The two of us, I think, encapsulate in our thinking the trap that we were trying to illuminate. Because I, we both went through the same graduate school program, and we both maybe took different things away from it. He was really focused on housing and kind of the,

the mechanics of zoning and how the government has intervened in the housing market and all the kind of things that I would just put under an urbanist label. And for me, I was really fascinated with the financial side of the whole thing. That was the thing to me that when I was in grad school, I didn't think the housing people made any sense, quite frankly. You have to take some of that. And I was like, this is really dumb. I don't get it. And

I think I didn't get it because as an engineer, I was more plugged into the finance side. I spent a number of years just reading every book on finance that I could. I actually watched for like two years straight, I had CNBC on in my office. Not because I think CNBC is like a good channel or like has revealing things, but because the lingo that they use, the finance lingo that they use, I didn't understand.

So when they said like MBS, like what is an MBS? It's a mortgage backed security. When they were talking about interest rate spreads and swaps, like I'm like, what the heck is that? Once I learned that language, to me the fascinating thing about housing was how it really is at its core downstream of the financial conversation that's going on in this country. So Daniel and I really tried to merge those two together, first in a set of insights that the two of us could agree on.

and then in a narrative of the book that we could publish and share with the world.

Kevin K (06:45.348)

So, without giving away too much of the book, obviously we want people to go buy the book. And I think you can pre -order it right now, is that right?

Charles Marohn (06:48.656)

Yeah, yeah.

Charles Marohn (06:55.248)

Well, it's not like it's a murder mystery, you know, like I'll tell people the core insights, but you know, there's a lot of depth there beyond that. So.

Kevin K (06:57.892)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. But maybe how about just tease out a couple of the key insights that you think are critical to share related to what the housing trap actually is.

Charles Marohn (07:12.912)

Well, the housing trap is the situation we've gotten ourselves in where housing as a financial product needs to go up in value. So the price of your house needs to go up for the economy to churn. But housing as shelter, when the price goes up, everything falls apart. Lots of people can't get into a house. If they get into a house, they're very financially strained. Once they're in a house, it's tough to move, take another job.

So these two things compete against each other and they're both necessities. I mean, shelter is in Maslow's hierarchy of needs and we've literally structured our entire economy to where mortgage -backed securities, your house bundled with a bunch of other houses, sit as the bank reserves for every bank in the country. Housing prices can't go down. They have to go up financially. Housing prices can't go up. They must actually come down.

for us to be able to function as a society. And that is the trap because both of those things are true at the same time.

Kevin K (08:17.412)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think probably the word of the decade has been financialized. And it seems like we've used that to discuss a lot of the foundation of the economic system we have today. And it certainly affects housing in all forms of real estate.

Charles Marohn (08:23.76)

Mm -hmm.

Charles Marohn (08:35.184)

Well, Daniel and I reached this understanding quite a while ago, I mean, way before we started working on the book, that if you if you look at the market for housing today, it represents the market of financial products. So when you see developers out building single family homes on the edge of Kansas City, what you're seeing is the manifestation of a financial instrument. The mortgage bundled with other mortgages.

securitized, sold off as a mortgage -backed security. There's a lot of liquidity. There's a lot of money and capital put into that product because it's a really good financial product. When you see the five over ones being built, the one story of concrete with five stories of wood construction, whether it is an apartment building or a condo, whether it's a high -end condo or a mid -level condo, whatever it is, those also are financial products.

Those are really easy to bundle with other similar structures from all over the country. Again, securitized, sold off, bought up by pension funds, put on the books of banks, all this stuff. What you don't see is you don't see the single family home converted to duplex. You don't see the single family home where we take the fourth bedroom that nobody's using and put it, make it an accessory apartment. You don't see the backyard cottage. You don't see the small 400, 600 square foot starter home.

because there's no financial product for those things. But those are the products that if they were available in the local market would actually anchor the market at a lower price point and keep the rest of it from going crazy. And so the conclusion that we've come to is that we just need a policy to build not more single family homes and not more five over ones and more apartment buildings. We really need policies to build lots of this starter stuff.

And the cool thing about it is that cities can do that on their own. They don't need federal grants and approvals. They don't need state support and funding. They actually have the capacity to really shift their local housing market, make it more locally responsive, and they can do it all on their own. They just have to do it with intention.

Kevin K (10:50.436)

Yeah, I think one of the things that you've talked about and written a lot about too is the notion of how after the financial crisis, 2008, 2010 or so, that the housing recovery in many ways has been kind of re -inflating a bubble. And I'm fascinated by this because obviously I'm not an economist, although I play one on TV. And it certainly seems like...

Charles Marohn (11:07.248)

Hahaha.

Kevin K (11:17.604)

the signs of stress that we've seen in the banking system even the last, let's say, year, year and a half, is putting a ton of pressure on the local community banks and continuing to centralize the banking system into larger and larger banks, including the four banks that are essentially protected by the federal government. So in essence, it kind of seems like we haven't really...

At a federal level, we're almost doubling down on this approach that has given us these large products that we don't really like.

Charles Marohn (11:53.84)

There's no doubt that our strategy when housing starts to level off or go down, as in like 2007, 2008, when housing went down in price, our strategy is to pump more money into the top of the financial funnel in order to keep housing going in the other direction, in order to keep housing from falling. And so, yeah, you have this weird thing where every economist looks back at 2001 to 2008,

And when you say housing, what they'll fill in the blank with bubble. They'll say, yes, it was a housing bubble. And you say, OK, well, in 2008, it started to go down a little bit. And then 2010, it hits bottom and it starts to go back up. And it's way, way higher than it is today than it was in 2008. That was a bubble. What is this? And they say, well, that's a housing recovery. Right. Like we recovered to a bubble and then beyond. This is.

You know, I think we don't know all of the things that we will know after the next reset. Warren Buffett has the same. You don't know who's swimming naked till the tide goes out and the financial tide has not gone out yet. So we really don't know where the bodies are buried. But if you listen to financial news, you'll hear a lot of fretting over regional banks, commercial real estate.

A lot of people when they hear commercial real estate think Walmart or strip mall or franchise restaurant or what have you. Those are certainly part of commercial real estate, but also part of commercial real estate is apartment buildings. You know, multifamily, multifamily buildings is a big part of commercial real estate. And those are financed with at least partially with short term financial products at local banks that have to be rolled over. And there is a huge incentive to extend and pretend.

to pretend that they'll someday be rented out at high margins, at high prices. And that works when interest rates are low or very stable. But when interest rates rise, those financial products actually decrease in value, those bonds do. And so banks are less willing to, or less able to really pretend that...

Charles Marohn (14:10.544)

You know, the in the hundred unit apartment, the 50 units or 40 units that aren't rented will someday be rented at this really high rate. The bank can only pretend so much until, you know, the grim reaper of finance comes for them. And it kind of feels like for regional commercial banks, like that's going to be the shakeout that will make a lot of cascading things in the apartment market. Be very, very different six months, 12 months from now.

Kevin K (14:39.684)

Yeah, if I were to maybe tie together a couple of different things, one, you had a recent, one of your recent podcasts where you talked about, uh, this is an election year and you kind of went through, uh, this, which was great. I really enjoyed it. Uh, and, uh, I have long enjoyed the way that you have talk about politics and the sort of reframing of the top down versus bottom up, you know, instead of like left, right all the time. I think that's incredibly helpful to think about.

Charles Marohn (14:49.808)

Haha.

Kevin K (15:09.764)

But you mentioned, you kind of talked a little bit about the old Tip O 'Neill phrase and the all politics is local, you know, and how that shifted to all politics is national today. And I can't help but think about that in relation to like this real estate discussion and financing where real estate used to be hyper local and it feels more and more like all real estate is national in that respect in terms of how we plan, design and finance whatever is being built.

Charles Marohn (15:40.4)

I think that's a brilliant insight. To me, the question is, what is the price of the house sensitive to? And a lot of us think that it should be sensitive to the buyer's ability to pay, right? You have a product in the marketplace, there's someone coming to buy it. If that person can't afford it, the market will have to adjust and figure out, is it smaller units, is it smaller rooms, is it less appointment? What is it that will make that

unit affordable to the person buying it. But our market is completely insensitive to the ability of people to pay. What it is more sensitive to is the macroeconomic funding stream. If we can lower interest rates, if we can print money at the Fed and buy mortgage -backed securities, if we can create massive amounts of liquidity, if we can funnel this liquidity to hedge funds and others that will invest in single -family homes as rental products or in a commercial -backed

real estate, what we can do is we can really drive up the price. And so I think from a consumer standpoint, you have to ask, like, what is the product here? We think that the product is us buying a house where the consumer, the house is the product. But the reality is, is that that transaction is incidental to creating what the real product is, which is a mortgage or a commercial real estate certificate, something that can be bundled, can be securitized and sold off.

That is what the market is sensitive to, not to your inability to pay. We are, in all sense, not the consumer, we are the product.

Kevin K (17:18.436)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's right. And well, I suppose this topic, since the book is fresh or will be freshly out, will be a big center of discussion at the Strong Town's national gathering coming up in a couple of weeks.

Charles Marohn (17:34.736)

Yeah, no doubt. I mean, I know that I'm scheduled to do a little bit of housing discussion there. You know, the National Gathering is really we don't call it a conference. We don't call it we call it a gathering because it really is Strongtown's advocates from all over. I would say all over the country, but it's all over North America. And we've got people coming from around the world for this thing. It really is a chance for people to see and learn.

what other people are doing bottom up to build strong towns. And housing is certainly part of that and will be part of the discussion. But a big, big emphasis of the gathering is just to, there's a phrase that I used last year that I'll probably talk about this year again, is just like, you're not alone. Being an advocate in a city can feel, you can feel very alone. Like you're the man or the woman against the machine. And the reality is, is that when people join together in a neighborhood,

when they start to gather more people together with them, there's so much that can be done from the bottom up. It's really empowering to get these local heroes in a room, let them see each other, let them talk to each other, let them hear each other's stories. I feel like that's the most powerful part of the gathering, really.

Kevin K (18:50.371)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I certainly enjoyed it last year and then the first one you had a few years ago in Tulsa. And this one's coming up in Cincinnati, May 14th and 15th. It precedes the Congress for the New Urbanism and both are well, well worth attending. So I hope folks who are listening can get out. And if you get a chance to attend, that's great. If you can't look at it for next year, it's really a cool way to meet.

Charles Marohn (19:03.055)

Yep.

Kevin K (19:19.556)

people who are interested in the same things. I was really fascinated, Chuck, last year in Charlotte at the, I talked about this with a number of our CNU friends, the difference in the dynamic between the Strong Towns crowd and the CNU crowd. Seeing that like back to back was really fascinating. And it's completely and utterly anecdotal and just judging by what I saw. But I felt like there was a lot.

Charles Marohn (19:30.64)

Yeah.

Kevin K (19:47.268)

of energy in the Strong Towns room and Strong Town side of things. And generally speaking, a younger crowd and less, you know, like the senior crowd long has been focused on the design and building professions, architecture, engineering, planning, and the Strong Town, which is great. You know, it's fine. We need, we have to do that, but the Strong Towns crowd was really different. It was much more diverse in terms of the backgrounds of the people that were there.

Charles Marohn (20:16.24)

So you and I are, I'm gonna say I'm a little older than you, right? I'm 50 this year.

Kevin K (20:20.836)

No, I'm 54, my friend.

Charles Marohn (20:24.112)

Okay, okay, well, all right. I assumed I was a little older than you. You just look younger, that's what it is. You and I have been hanging out together at the CNU for many years. And I remember when I first started going, this was the place of super high energy, right? Like I would go, I would meet all these thinkers and all these people doing stuff. And we would like,

Kevin K (20:30.436)

It's just, I just kept my hair color longer, that's all.

Charles Marohn (20:50.48)

debate things in the hallway. And there was all these like side things going on. Remember in Salt Lake City, when we did the first debates, it was just this like crazy wild party of, and I say party, I don't drink. There was no like, this was a party of like intellect. Like it was just like electric in the air. I have, I have, I have been searching for that the last few years. I've been like, where's that? Like I want, I want to be in the room with that energy. And I showed up at,

are gathering last year with high expectations, but really, you know, knowing, having been on the road and met with people, knowing that our movement had a lot of this bottom up energy, a lot of, you know, just very different people from people who are doing retail and like, I sell flowers and I, you know, have a bakery to people who are, I'm out building homes, I'm doing this stuff, I'm on a planning commission, I'm a mayor of a city.

There really is a, when you say diverse, it's a crazy group of bottom up people all who self identify as like, I love my place. I want it to be better. I walked into that room at the opening last year and I'm like, this energy is out of this world. It's amazing. I'll give you a little like under the hood. I'm

I wanted last year, like, let's get some music. There should be a party. Like we're having a party here. Like everyone's coming together. Let's get some music. And when I got there and like I had a thing where my daughter was graduating, like that was the week of her graduation from high school. And I could, I flew in at the last minute and I had to fly out right away. So it was just like the timing didn't work well for me, but I got there and like, we didn't have the music because like logistically it wasn't going to work and the sound system wasn't going to work and all that.

And I kind of was like a little disappointed. I'm like, Oh, I don't, I don't, I kind of want the vibe to be up here. I walked in the room and the vibe was up here. And I'm like, if we would add music, like they would have blown the roof off this place. It would have been a little too crazy because people were amped. They were excited. Um, I have been re I've been assured that this year there will be music. So we'll see what, we'll see what happens in Cincinnati. If we can, uh, yeah, get, uh, get things even more, uh, more excitement, let's say.

Kevin K (22:53.284)

Yeah.

Kevin K (23:02.564)

Oh good.

Kevin K (23:11.364)

Yeah, well, I look forward to that. I mean, I think like you, I have, you know, it used to be like the CNU, we would come back from a CNU and the adrenaline rush was so crazy that for like a month afterwards, all you could do was think about the stuff that you heard and talked about and you're like, we've got to do X, Y, and Z now. And, you know, I honestly haven't felt that rush in quite a while with CNU. Part of that might just be that I'm getting older and...

It's harder for me to feel that and things change. But there's definitely, I love the excitement of the debate and the discussions and seeing a lot of younger people there I think is really cool. So kudos to you guys and hope it continues.

Charles Marohn (23:57.488)

Thank you. Thank you. It definitely will. We're committed to it. And, you know, I mean, this thing is going off here in a couple of weeks and we're almost full. So, I mean, we've sold hundreds of tickets, people flying in from all over. It will be, it will be, it will be really cool.

Kevin K (24:08.164)

Yeah, good.

Kevin K (24:17.092)

All right, well, let's shift and talk about something a little more lighthearted, perhaps. But I want to talk, first, let's talk about baseball, something that both of us share an interest in, both American League Central Division fans of different teams. And obviously, there's a rivalry. But honestly, there isn't really much of a rivalry because both teams are never good at the same time.

Charles Marohn (24:24.464)

All right.

Charles Marohn (24:43.152)

Who do you like legitimately consider your top rival?

Kevin K (24:47.076)

Well, I think for years, the weird thing is it was like the Cardinals, right? But they're not even, but they're National League. Right, so when interleague play started, I think that became a really, really big deal and those games were enormous in both cities. It's tapered off a lot and it's probably, you know, the Cardinals have been such a great organization for so long, they probably kind of laugh about it amongst themselves.

Charles Marohn (24:51.312)

Okay, right, they're not even in your division, right?

Charles Marohn (25:03.248)

Yeah, yeah.

Charles Marohn (25:12.976)

Sure.

Kevin K (25:14.468)

Uh, so, uh, any more, I don't know, you know, when I was growing up, um, it was the Yankees, it was the Royals and the Yankees. Um, because in the seventies, the Royals had those great teams that won the division every year, 76, 77, 78, and then went to the playoffs and just like lost to the Yankees every year. And, uh, finally turned around in 1980 and won it and world went to the world series. But.

Charles Marohn (25:21.104)

Okay. Yep.

Kevin K (25:41.732)

So for years there actually was a pretty fierce rivalry between the Royals and the Yankees, but that was again not in the same division. So it was a little odd.

Charles Marohn (25:50.8)

We share this in common because the twins, I think we, I mean, we did have the record of all sports for most consecutive playoff losses. And losing consecutively in baseball games is hard to do because you, even, you know, even coming in with mismatched teams, you've got a like 40 % chance of winning statistically any game. So the idea, I think we lost 17 or 18 in a row post -season and almost all of those were to the Yankees. And so we had a deep,

Kevin K (26:04.228)

Yeah.

Charles Marohn (26:20.912)

I mean, I told my daughter growing up, you know, she's two years old. And I said, in this family, we don't hate anybody, but we do hate the Yankees. So that's, that's an acceptable, but for me in the division, it's the white Sox. Like I, I'm not a fan of Cleveland. I, I don't really care about Detroit all that much. I gotta say Kansas city does not, like I don't get, you know, foaming at the mouth when we're playing Kansas city, but.

Kevin K (26:29.38)

Ah yes.

Charles Marohn (26:49.712)

When we play Chicago, the White Sox, I like go ahead and hit every ever the batter like I don't care. Like I'm I don't like those guys.

Kevin K (26:56.868)

Yeah. Yeah. And the White Sox, they just have every misfortune. I mean, come on. I think ever since they tore down Old Kamisky, it's been like a curse on that team. So speaking of, go ahead.

Charles Marohn (27:06.192)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I took, let me, let me tell this story real quick. Cause this will solidify Chicago for me. I took Chloe, my oldest, she came, I was speaking in Chicago once and she, she's probably like five or six young kid. We rode the train, the Amtrak to Chicago and we were just there for a couple of days. I spoke at this conference. The White Sox were playing a game.

And so we went to the game because she likes baseball, you know, dad and daughter go in the game. We showed up. She wanted to wear her twins jersey because, you know, the twins weren't playing. It was the White Sox versus some other team. I don't even remember. We walked in to sit down. Little girl with a cute little pink twins jersey on. People started booing her and yelling at her like literally like she started crying. She felt bad. I'm like, these people don't deserve this kid. This is the White Sox. I hate you guys.

Kevin K (27:52.164)

Oh my god.

Charles Marohn (28:01.296)

I'm sorry I came to your dumb stadium with my beautiful daughter. Get lost. So.

Kevin K (28:06.02)

Well, it is their punishment for tearing down a nice stadium, building a horrific one, having a lousy owner. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was probably the worst new baseball stadium built in that entire era. So speaking of new stadiums, one of the things I just want to chat with you about and get your perspective on is we are having a big debate here locally regarding baseball stadiums because the Royals ownership.

Charles Marohn (28:11.984)

Yeah, it was a bad stadium. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin K (28:34.884)

which is a new ownership group. They bought the team, I guess, three years ago, local people led by John Sherman. They want to build a new park. They want to leave Kauffman Stadium and build a new park in the downtown area. And which in theory, you know, I'm, I and many other people are like, great, let's do it. Sounds awesome. But, you know, obviously we're having this kind of age old debate about,

how to finance and build a stadium. And in a smaller market like Kansas City, that comes with fairly large public subsidy one way or another. And the projects themselves just balloon in size incredibly. So we're talking instead of a baseball stadium that might be, I don't know, let's say $600 million, now it's a stadium in a district that's two billion.

And the public is expected to underwrite a significant share of that. So there's, you know, we have this, we, there's been this knowledge within our world for years that a lot of us, the economics of this are just kind of silly, but how the, how the hell do cities escape this discussion and this trap? Because I'm completely mystified as how we ever get out of the situation where we are subsidizing major league franchises.

Charles Marohn (30:04.784)

I have some weird thoughts on this. And yeah, I don't think that, I think that people who are gonna hear this and I'm probably just gonna make like everybody angry. Because I do have like very strange thoughts on this. So let's go out to the edge of Kansas City where the DOT and the city are actively building interchanges because they wanna get more development.

Kevin K (30:06.692)

please share.

Charles Marohn (30:32.816)

What I find frustrating about that, when you go build an interchange and you've got on ramps and off ramps on the highway, you're in a sense robbing the highway capacity, right? Because an interchange creates friction and slows down traffic and all that. In order to get the development on the side of the highway, the frontage roads, the interchange, all the big box stores and all the stuff that will go there, and then the housing subdivision that will go adjacent to that.

The act of building that interchange makes multimillionaires out of a bunch of randos out in the middle of nowhere. It might be the guy who like inherited it from someone who inherited it or someone from inherited it like. And that's probably the most palatable. What generally happens is someone by bought it from him a decade ago and like a land speculator just sat on it and then worked with the D .O .T. to get it developed. But either way, it's a massive cash transfer from the public.

to private property owners. And I have always said, if we're gonna do that, we should do one of two things as a public. We should go out and buy up all that land around where the interchange is gonna be. I'm thinking like a mile in each direction. You know, we should buy that ahead of time at pre -interchange rates. We should build the interchange and then the interchange makes the land more valuable.

We should then sell the land back to the market at that higher rate and use that amount to pay for the interchange. That or a more conventional way to do it would be to do a special assessment, which cities do all the time when they're out building sewer and water, they special assess the whole thing.

I'm cognizant of the fact that like the Colosseum in ancient Rome was not built in order to get ancient Rome. Like ancient Rome was what it was. And then wealthy patrons came in and said, I want everybody to think I'm awesome. So I'm going to build this Colosseum and, you know, deck it all out and do all that. I feel like our stadiums are, in a sense, the same thing. And if I were a city.

Charles Marohn (32:41.36)

working with some very rich people to try to build what is in a sense a monument to them and their play thing, this major league baseball team. I would want to use the tools of either imminent domain and development, or I would want to use the tools of special assessment to recoup my part of the investment. Because if I'm gonna build a baseball stadium,

I want it to be Wrigley field in terms of the intensity of the development around it and what that actually means to the land values in its vicinity. If I'm going to build, I can't remember what the Atlanta one is called. I hate that state, the new Cobb field or something like that. It's a junk park. Like it might be a nice place, but I like, don't like anything about its development. Even, um, you know,

Kevin K (33:21.028)

the new one.

It's truest. Is it truest park? Yeah.

Charles Marohn (33:36.112)

Target Field, which is like one of my, I think Target Field is my favorite park and I'm biased obviously, Minnesota Target Field. But I think it's a great park. I think the way they financed it is really backward. And the development around it has trailed the park by 10 to 15 years because we didn't have the right kind of financial.

I'm going to use the word incentives, but I don't mean giveaways. I mean, incentives by like now you've got a $10 million special assessment in this land. You better build something that's a hundred million dollars on it or, you know, you're going to pay a high tax rate year after year after year. You got to make use of this property. We didn't have everybody's incentives aligned when we made the big public investment. And so we didn't get the private investment out of it that we should have got. That's.

I could buy into stadiums if we actually had that mindset because then the public is not only going to recoup their investment ultimately, but you're going to get a really nice product at the end.

Kevin K (34:44.804)

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting way to think about it. And unfortunately, I don't think we don't really have public officials who think about it that way. Yeah. Well, yeah, we don't have the stomach for it. And it's a good point.

Charles Marohn (34:53.36)

the stomach for it? I mean, Chuck says, imminent domain, everything within a mile. I mean, that's crazy. But if you were responsible with your finances, you would do a special assessment.

Kevin K (35:08.932)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of logic to that. And maybe you don't even recover all of the public investment, but you could recover a substantial portion of it. Who knows?

Charles Marohn (35:20.72)

What I think you can, I think you recover some of it upfront, right? Like you can, you can have your upfront and then you'll have the after effect of basically having the incentives aligned where people will then develop and then you will collect the rest of it in terms of long -term taxes. I mean, I, I've watched Kansas city Joe, our friend, Joe Mancosi did some, some analysis of tax increment financing deals that Kansas city's done that would make your stomach churn. I mean, just giving away.

tens of millions of dollars to the most ludicrous kind of things that will never cashflow. I've watched Kansas City build monstrosity things out on the edge of town and call it growth and call it public investment when the city's guaranteed to lose money on every single one of these things. You don't even need more than a napkin analysis to figure that out. It makes me sad. I would, if, if Kansas City were to become more sophisticated about the public purse, I think they could build a stadium.

responsibly, but they can't do it without, you know, in a sense, demanding that everyone who's going to get rich on it contributes proportionately to what is being built.

Kevin K (36:28.74)

Yeah, yeah, I like that. I mean, it seems to me almost like it's sort of a third way thought, you know, thought pattern about it because as I tried to talk to people locally about it here, unfortunately with the reality of sports and sports economics today, like a city the size of Kansas City, you're just not going to build a new facility without public investment in it. It's just not going to happen or you're going to lose the teams. And that sucks, but that's where we are.

Charles Marohn (36:55.408)

Did New York, didn't New York have public subsidy on their ZO2? I mean, I'm.

Kevin K (37:00.612)

I think they might have. I know in San Francisco when the Giants built their new stadium, they built it all themselves. And I can't remember some of the new football stadiums they have. Yeah. Yeah.

Charles Marohn (37:10.704)

I know the 49ers, the 49ers got a huge subsidy on theirs. So, I mean, you're like, I'm with you because you and I are both told that we're mid -market teams, you know, and you've suffered the trauma. No, I was going to say you've suffered the trauma of having a football team lead, but that was St. Louis that had the football team lead. That wasn't Kansas City. You guys have the glorious football team.

Kevin K (37:30.308)

That was St. Louis, yeah. Uh -huh. Nope.

We do. We had a baseball team leave, but that was before I was born. So the Kansas City A's. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we lost an NBA team and an NHL team in my life.

Charles Marohn (37:40.048)

Okay, so that that trauma is is gone.

Charles Marohn (37:47.984)

Really? What was your NBA team? I don't remember that.

Kevin K (37:50.276)

It was the Kansas City Kings. They went to Sacramento. Yeah, in the 80s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, at one point we were the smallest city in the country that had all four major sports leagues.

Charles Marohn (37:53.104)

Sacramento, no kidding. I did not know that. Huh. Huh. Um.

Charles Marohn (38:05.52)

We've been told that that Minnesota can't support four because we're too small for that. And there's always the, you know, I feel like it's one of those things where each team can kind of threaten to leave because they're the we're the fourth one that can't be supported without a public stadium. Yeah, it here's here's so you have a you have a background in architecture. Here's what I struggle with with stadiums. I feel like.

And I'll say this even about my beloved target field. We don't build stadiums that will be around to be excavated in the future. Like the Roman Coliseum, we can look at and we can see this grandeur and like it's been there thousands of years. We don't build anything that isn't in a sense, it might have a nice fancy facade and it might be nice. And we've used some decorative brick to make it look good.

But the reality is, is like, like we just built a plastic band box with some good veneer on it that looks cool. And I like the dimensions, but these aren't like massive public investments meant to endure beyond really a generation. Right? I mean, am I, am I misunderstanding something about how we build these things?

Kevin K (39:25.38)

Well, I think there was an era where they were built differently. I think that's probably more commonly the case now. I mean, even Kauffman Stadium is a pretty incredible structure in and of itself. There were a lot of impressive structures, though, built in that era in the 60s now that basically are all gone. They're all torn down and replaced. It seems more like they're thought of more like a consumer product.

Charles Marohn (39:48.4)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin K (39:55.076)

now that is like you build these stadiums and they're wildly expensive and they're huge, but essentially they're built to last maybe two generations. And then we're looking to either completely overhaul it or replace them.

Charles Marohn (39:55.888)

Yeah!

Charles Marohn (40:11.952)

Well, I realized that the Metro Dome, which the Metro Dome was a special case product where we built the dumbest stadium at the end of the dumb stadium era. And like, I think the year after we built the Metro Dome or two years later, Camden Yards was built and everyone had buyer's remorse right away. But, you know, you're talking about a stadium that at the 18 year mark.

They said needs to come down and we're going to contract this team and actually have fewer baseball teams because of this bad stadium. We got target field in 08 or 09 somewhere in there. I think somewhere in that range. So, you know, the the the Metrodome era lasted 24, 25 years. And I remember that like the roof caved in on it and like you blew it like no one was sad really to see it go because it was really like a plastic box.

It seemed to me like it's a consumer good, like it's just designed. And I wonder if, because Wrigley Field, you know, say you could tear that down and rebuild it in place, right? I don't know what it would take to do that. I mean, people would flip out if you did that. They're going to maintain it till it can't be maintained anymore. But.

there's really no question of where the Chicago Cubs will play. And I don't think that's because it's iconic as much as it is embedded in this ecosystem around it. You know, so to I'm sorry, Kevin, to me, the key to having a good public stadium investment would be that you have to actually grow the ecosystem around it. So there's some codependency. So that thing actually like could never leave again.

Kevin K (41:45.7)

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin K (42:03.428)

Yeah, as our as our friend, Philip Bess would say, he wrote a great, great little book called City Baseball Magic, which actually was a study of what the White Sox should have done when they replaced Comiskey Park. But he talked about it's just the best ballparks are neighborhood ballparks. It would then emphasis on the neighborhood park. So check out one fun little bit of baseball park trivia for you.

Charles Marohn (42:24.784)

Yeah.

Kevin K (42:30.436)

One of the very first projects I worked on as a young architect right out of college was at the Metrodome. You remember at one point they put in these big vertical screens to block off parts of the seats. Yeah, to block off part of the seats to make it look more full for different events. I did that. It was a ridiculous project.

Charles Marohn (42:30.8)

Uh oh.

Charles Marohn (42:44.336)

The baggy? Yeah, the baggy.

Uh huh. Uh huh.

man, I hated you then. Because it was so weird because what it was, the Metrodome was built like a football stadium and then they overlaid this baseball stadium within it. And I had season tickets for a while. My brother and I, when I was in grad school, I got them. We went up, the twins had been historically bad for many years and they were selling season tickets at an event. And my brother and I said, well, let's...

Let's go look at them. If we can get front row seats, we'll do it. Well, we got front row seats down by the tunnel where they come out for the football game. So it was like by the bullpen. It wasn't it wasn't by the dugout or anything. It was like maybe like what would be in the corner today. But front row is front row. I mean, they were really cool. Like we were right there. You could yell at the right fielder and talk to the guys in the bullpen. It was it was awesome. The problem was you were facing the 50 yard line.

which was like center field. So if you wanted to watch the game, you had to like crane your head over the left to actually see the game going on. Those when those banners went up, I think the what you tell me, I feel like the thing was to try to make it feel less empty because you took out like 20 ,000 seats by by putting up this big curtain to say, hey, it's not as empty and it's a little more intimate. Yeah, it didn't work.

Kevin K (44:12.164)

Yep. Mm -hmm.

Kevin K (44:22.148)

It was a funny deal. Just the sort of project you give a young architect to work on.

Charles Marohn (44:22.288)

Hahaha!

Charles Marohn (44:28.88)

So did you, you came up to the metronome and like, you know, what was your level of involvement with?

Kevin K (44:33.988)

The funny thing on that, I was just the kid in the office doing the drawing work, so I didn't actually go get to do a site visit for any part of it. But when I was a little kid growing up in Albert Lee, I mean, we went to the Metrodome a lot. I have a lot of great memories of going to games at the Metrodome.

Charles Marohn (44:38.352)

Sure, sure.

Charles Marohn (44:49.648)

Now hang on a sec, you're not Minnesotan, are you?

Kevin K (44:52.836)

No, not really. We lived in Albert Lee.

Charles Marohn (44:55.536)

Okay.

I mean, I like you, I like you, and you have some positive characteristics about you. I didn't want to automatically attribute them to being Minnesotan, but now things are falling into place.

Kevin K (45:05.54)

No, we lived in Albert Lee for eight years. And yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. And it was when I was a, you know, elementary school kid and junior high. So, you know, those are great years and great, great memories. My parents, I think my parents really were happy to get out. They thought it was way too cold and, you know, they weren't, they weren't too fond of that. But well, I was a kid. I was a kid. I didn't, you know,

Charles Marohn (45:09.68)

OK, OK, so you got a little of the vibe.

Charles Marohn (45:21.456)

Yeah, yeah.

Charles Marohn (45:31.376)

You didn't think it was too cold though, did you? Cause you're, yeah, bring it on.

Kevin K (45:36.548)

So, last thing I just wanna kind of touch on a little bit, cause it's a fun topic is you've been, you've shared a lot in many podcasts about your love for Disney World and your enjoyment of Disney World. And I just wanna touch on this a little bit. And I've probably like, you know, thinking way too deeply about all this stuff, but we took our kids there, I guess it was about a year and a half ago. I have actually no experience with Disneyland in California, just Disney World in Florida.

Charles Marohn (45:47.824)

Yeah.

Charles Marohn (46:04.752)

Mmm.

Kevin K (46:05.7)

And of course we had a fantastic time. It was absolutely magical for the kids for the age they were. And everything about it was really, really nice. And I just want to talk a little bit about it because it's fascinating to think about because if you could think about like the un -strong towns, it would be like Walt Disney World. It's...

you know, if you think about the most incredible, or at least this was the thought I had at the time. If you thought about something that was like the most top -down, large enterprise you could conceive of, it's Disney World. And yet we both really, really enjoy it and find a lot to admire. And I wonder if you could maybe expand on that a little bit or talk about it.

Charles Marohn (46:40.912)

Absolutely.

Charles Marohn (46:51.984)

Well, let's start with this. I think the thing that I have always loved from the time that I was, I think 13 was the first time that my family went up until today, is that it is some of the best designed urban spaces in America. If you want to experience, you know, you and I hang out with a crowd.

where there's actually a debate over, do you like your urbanism gritty or do you like it fake? And there's a whole strain of people who like, if I can't smell urine in the street, it's not a real city. And I'm from a small town. I actually like things nice. So the idea of going to Disney World and riding transit and having it be beautiful and comfortable and fun, the idea of not having a car and going to places and walking around and...

Yeah, there's a lot of other people there, but it's so well designed and proportioned. And the hyper attention on the human experience, not just standing, how you stand in line and wait, but how you actually get the transition from one place to another, to another. You know, like the sight lines that you have and the smells, like all of this, the music, as someone who is an auditory person,

The idea that you would walk between different places and the music would not clash with each other as you would go from one place to another, but actually blend. I try to explain this to my wife decades ago and I didn't do a very good job. I said, it's comforting to me because it's so well designed. I used to take my, when I ran my own planning and engineering firm, I used to take my team down to just show them.

Here's what good urban design looks like. And like, let me look at the way these buildings are proportioned and laid out. Look at where they've done with the lighting. Look at this. It wasn't like we were going to come back to Brainerd, Minnesota and build Disney World. But my gosh, you look at the lights we put in the park, they're just like ugly street lights because, oh, we need light here. The attention to detail is so deep and thorough. And the stories are just legend of like, you know.

Charles Marohn (49:10.416)

They would they would put a tree in a spot and what would come and he'd look at him and be like, oh, geez, I should be three feet over this way. And be like, why should it be three feet? Well, look at like here's where it blocks this view and that like this and that. And then he'd walk away and they go, we had to move the tree three feet because now I'll never be able to walk by this and see it that way again. Our cities. Could spend way less money and be vastly more beautiful if we had just.

a tiny bit of the understanding of urban design that like the base Imagineer has. And I think that is the thing that, you know, it is Disney World is not meant to endure. It is. I mean, they call it a stage. You're on stage when you're there at the park. It is, you know, like a stage in a theatrical production. It's false fronts. It's like not.

Not like super high quality construction. It's meant to be ripped down and rebuilt after a certain amount of time. But your city is made to endure. I mean, you want your city to be around 100 years from now, 200 years from now. None of us build thinking that, well, this neighborhood is going to be disposable. If if we grasped 10 percent of what the Disney Corporation grasp about building great places, it would be a revolution in this country of.

of urban design.

Kevin K (50:38.66)

Yeah, I think one of the things that struck me or maybe it just occurred to me differently this time as well is since I'm in professionally now, I'm running this place management organization here in Kansas City. And so I have gotten a whole lot more exposure in day -to -day work with just management of public space and how difficult that is and just the challenges.

Charles Marohn (50:51.888)

Yeah.

Kevin K (51:07.652)

I started to look at it a little bit through that lens. And I think when I started to do that, I'm just completely and utterly impressed with the management of everything that Disney does from beginning to end, from the entire experience, from when you arrive through the process of going through security. Oh my God. The thousands and thousands of people that go through security per hour. And it's just this utterly seamless experience that you're just like, why can't the airport be like this? You know?

Charles Marohn (51:37.072)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin K (51:37.092)

And, you know, all the aspects of it really makes you say, this is what I think a lot of us are really hoping. This is how we wish our places were managed on a daily basis, including the cleanliness of it. And I know it's a fake world. It's a theme park. But I think that's part of it seems to me like that's part of the attraction.

Charles Marohn (52:00.464)

Yeah, and I actually think we can discount it and say it's a fake world, like I totally get it. But I also feel like what they've recognized that we all could easily recognize is that a huge part of creating value is the experience. We were having a chat here internally today about an article that one of our writers is working on about transit.

and just how a lot of the wayfaring is being taken out in New York and in other places because it was old and it just didn't get replaced. And you can go to a place like Vancouver where they've got new parts of the system and those parts have great wayfaring and great signage. The reason is because the way we finance transit focuses on massive one -time investments.

but it doesn't really look at long term the user experience and how do we improve that? How do we put money towards that? And how do we make that fun? We would rather have double the size of the transit system and have it be really crappy for everybody than to have half the transit system and have it be marvelous for everyone who uses it. And that is really a byproduct of like our macro economy, right? Grow, grow, grow, build, build, build more, more, more. Disney builds a lot, but

They never build anything without having a strategy for how it will be exquisitely maintained, for how it will really be conformed and contorted to match the experience. They're always willing to check their assumptions, check their understandings based on how people use stuff. And I think that we could learn a lot from that.

The four step process that we use at Strong Towns, the idea that you humbly observe where people struggle and you ask yourself what's the next smallest investment and then you do that and you repeat the process. Part of that comes from really Walt Disney himself. This may be a apocryphal insight, but there's a story about Walt that feels like it's genuine.

Charles Marohn (54:21.232)

He had an apartment at Disneyland and he would go down in the morning and walk around in his bathrobe watching people get the park ready. And one day he's out walking around and they're putting up a fence. And he's like, why are you why are you putting up a fence there? And he's well, people keep cutting across the grass. We want them to stay on the sidewalk. And his answer was, well, you've got it wrong. Rip out the sidewalk and put it here where people are walking. They're showing you where to go.

anyone who's been at one big box store and trying to drive to the next big box store and recognizes that they have to drive half a mile up the highway and then do a weird U -turn and come back and use a right in right out and do all this. Anybody who's tried to cross a street and recognize that they have to walk half a mile to a street light to cross and then come back appreciates the idea that Walt has, which is observe where people are struggling, observe where this is hard and just make it easier for them.

To me, this is a genius insight, but it shouldn't be a hard one for us to do.

Kevin K (55:27.46)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing is the other observation that I think ties into all that is what you see with Disney World, or at least what I saw with it, is we're in this weird time and place in our culture where there's just not a lot of feeling that we're doing a lot of things really well. And even at the big corporate level,

very large corporations, it seems like there's more bad news than good when it comes to all that. And here you have this massive corporation. The Disney Corporation is absolutely massive and owns so many things. And they own this enormous complex of Walt Disney World. And I think when you go there, it's like it kind of, I can understand how my parents would have thought about that era, that America.

does big things really well because Disney World epitomizes somebody, an organization doing big things really, really well down to the smallest detail like you describe.

Charles Marohn (56:38.096)

Well, Walt Disney embodies, for better and for worse, I mean, I think there's obviously two sides to this, the immediate post -war mentality. I mean, Disneyland itself is a hubristic undertaking to transform an orange grove out in the middle of nowhere into this dreamland where you can take your kids, you can take your grandparents, everybody can go and have this wonderful time.

His vision came about because he was sitting at like an old carnival, watching his kids go on rides that were dirty and not well taken care of and grounds that weren't very fun. And he's like, as an adult, you're kind of ostracized from participating. Let's build this dream world. I think it is in many ways the best of that era because he did have a

a dream and a vision that was very, I'm not gonna use, I want to use the word inclusive, but I think that is probably wrong in our current context. But he would have said, a place for everybody to come. He was also criticized for it being too expensive like it is today. So there's limits to what is very expensive. But I think it's also the worst.

Kevin K (57:55.3)

It is expensive. Yeah.

Charles Marohn (58:00.912)

of what we did, because it is this idea that you can create perfection. All like it is possible to build to a finished state and have it be done right. And when it comes to magical make believe places, I think that that's probably right, because they don't have a mindset that it will always be there. They are always redoing and refixing things and all that. But we when we take that mentality and we bring it into our neighborhoods and our cities and we're like, well, we can build this.

with a Disney mentality where we go out and build it perfect the first time and then walk away. Sure, we'll get 20 years where it's the nice neighborhood and the good place, and then it will become a downward spiral like every place else. And I do think we have not, it's almost become a place that allows us to believe in the wrong things. Like we, to me, I feel like if my mayor went to Disney World, he would come back,

not with the mentality of we need obsessive maintenance and to humbly observe where people are struggling and to respond to the human condition and have great urban design. He would come back and say, wow, we can build big stuff really quickly and have it be awesome. And I'm like, that's the wrong takeaway, buddy.

Kevin K (59:16.196)

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think it does espouse a lot of those contradictions. So that feels like probably a good place to leave it. I should also mention in case you didn't know that Walt Disney is from small town Missouri. And Marceline. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, everything in Missouri is pronounced strange. That's just the way it is. It's also Missouri. So I should say that. You know.

Charles Marohn (59:22.032)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hey, thanks, man.

Charles Marohn (59:31.696)

He is, no, I definitely knew that. I've been wanting, it's Marceline, is that the name of the place? Marceline, okay, I'm saying it like I'm Minnesotan.

Hahaha

Do people actually say that? Missouri?

Kevin K (59:47.619)

If you're if you are not in Kansas City or St. Louis, it's pronounced Missouri. Oh, yeah.

Charles Marohn (59:52.336)

Seriously, I did not know that. You know, I spent a summer at Fort Leonard Wood, which was one of the most miserable summers of my life. So I had clay, you know, Minnesota, we have this beautiful glacial outwash. Doesn't mean like the engineering geek, but we have this nice glacial outwash. So when it rains, the water drains into the ground and I'm in Kansas City or I'm sorry, I'm in Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri and I have a tent that I'm sleeping in because I'm a soldier.

Kevin K (59:57.316)

Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's it.

Charles Marohn (01:00:21.392)

And it rains and guess what happens to the water in Missouri? It just runs into the lowest area and floods it, which happened to be my tent. Oh my gosh, it's horrible. Just wretched.

Kevin K (01:00:24.548)

Yeah.

Kevin K (01:00:29.124)

Yeah, yeah, and you just get mud everywhere. It's wonderful. Yeah, but yeah, but yet continuing the story just briefly, Walt Disney then as a young man went to Kansas City and got his start in journalism and his professional career in Kansas City. And he worked at a place called the Laffagram Studios, which a friend of mine here, a developer is trying to restore and they're trying to make it into an attraction. But yeah, it should be a cool thing when it gets done. So.

Charles Marohn (01:00:41.328)

Yeah.

Charles Marohn (01:00:54.128)

Oh nice.

Is that where he did the first, because there was a first iteration before Mickey Mouse. Mickey Mouse was the second prototype after he had a falling out with his business partner. Yeah.

Kevin K (01:01:01.348)

Yes.

Kevin K (01:01:06.628)

Yes. Yeah. There, there is some, you know, urban legend that the first one was here at the Laffagram studios. But I think, I think that's, uh, I mean, we'll claim it, but it's hotly debated. Uh, well Chuck, thanks so much for doing this. Uh, for again, um, the book, uh, coming out is Escaping the Housing Trap, the Strong Towns Response. And then the Strong Towns National Gathering is coming up May 14th and 15th in Cincinnati.

Charles Marohn (01:01:13.392)

Sure. Let's go with that. Yeah, yeah, let's go with that.

Kevin K (01:01:35.844)

So I can't wait to see you there and see our other good friends and look forward to a great week in a city that I've been looking forward to spending more time.

Charles Marohn (01:01:48.624)

Thank you, my friend. And I'm, I'm happy, uh, to introduce a whole bunch more people to your podcast. Um, if you're not listening, if this is your first time listening and you're listening, cause of me, put this on your rotation. Cause this is a very good podcast and Kevin, uh, has a lot of my friends and our mutual friends and a lot of other interesting people. Um, we talk about more than just Disney and, uh, Kansas city and baseball. So yeah, thanks friend. Absolutely.

Kevin K (01:02:10.052)

Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, thanks, Chuck. I appreciate that. All right. Take care.

Butch Rigby is a long-time Kansas City developer, small business promoter, and city booster. We decided to sit down and talk about the looming ballot initiative on April 2, and the pros and cons of the current proposal for moving the Royals to the Crossroads neighborhood.

You can listen to more of Butch’s story in this podcast.

Another podcast of interest is this discussion with Philip Bess, and our work together to save Fenway Park.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Episode Transcript:

Kevin (00:00.644)

Welcome back to the messy city podcast. I've got a returning guest, butch Rigby here, otherwise known as Kansas city's George Bailey, as I've described my, uh, my longtime friend and, uh, and partner in crime on, uh, Kansas city issues, downtown development issues, et cetera. And, uh, Bush, it's great to see you. Oh, Kevin. It's always great to be here. Matter of fact, it.

feeling like Savannah, Georgia. It is. I mean, it's already in the 70s and it was the 70s in February or something. That was crazy. So I know everything's blooming. All the stuff I planted last fall is looking good. So I'm happy. I was worried that everything bloomed too early and it was going to get frozen out. But I don't think so. I know. I think we're like straight into lake season pretty soon. So that's all right. Well, butch, I wanted to have you in today to talk about.

the baseball stadium issue in particular, because it's a hot topic here locally. There is a proposal on the ballot coming up in April here in Kansas City and Jackson County to extend a sales tax, an existing sales tax that will expire in a few years.

to help fund a new baseball stadium for the Royals in a downtown location in the Crossroads area. And then also provide funding for the Chiefs for a series of improvements to Arrowhead. And Butch and I go way back on this issue. We had a lot of fun years ago talking about the potential for downtown baseball when we were both volunteering with the Urban Society of Kansas City.

That's correct. That's right. Shout out to all of our urban society buddies. Oh yeah. They knew who they are. And I think it's interesting, maybe where we could start Butch is to kind of put things in context for what we talked about. That was probably now 20 years ago when we were getting involved in that. Just about. Yeah. And so that was when the Glass family owned the Royals. And...

Kevin (02:16.186)

Downtown was coming along, but it was still a little bit more in its infancy of redeveloping. And there was a push on the part of a lot of people to try to get the Royals to consider coming downtown. And we took on this crazy volunteer task of looking at all the different sites that there were downtown and trying to get people to analyze them and...

put their thoughts together. That was, in retrospect, that was kind of a wild thing. And we had a couple hundred people who volunteered with it, as far as I remember, right? We did. And, you know, of course you have to remember 30 years ago when I bought my first building down in what was then Film Row, 19th and Wyandotte, you know, before the days of Crossroads, it was a ghost town. And I'm not kidding. I mean, it was literally...

On a Friday night, we would hold these Christmas and July parties to celebrate the history of Film Row. And we were the only thing going on down there. Now, you know, we were begging for tenants. I had a few buildings that I bought and I was having a challenge keeping a coffee shop tenant open. Certainly wasn't, you know, having any luck with restaurants or anything like that. That's just natural when you've had, you know, a big daytime population in office towers in the, inside the loop.

Uh, but you really have, uh, I think we had 2 ,500 residences downtown, which isn't enough to support really anything. Yeah. And, uh, you know, at that time, uh, you know, kind of spin forward a dozen years or so, and, uh, things are happening. You know, they're announcing, uh, you know, the, the big push for the, not only the power and light, but to get H &R blocked downtown to do, uh, get the Sprint Center downtown. And, uh, we held the halfway.

mark of the development at Screenland at my theater for a while. And, you know, that was a time when we were all thinking, hey, there are several good options for baseball because it meant more and more people making downtown what it used to be. 30 years before I was there, everything was downtown. Shopping was downtown. Movies were downtown. If you wanted to see a first run picture, it was downtown. It was a destination for a reason.

Kevin (04:38.482)

And that was gone. And so we saw that opportunity. And of course, back then, like you say, there were probably eight good sites because, you know, they were going to be kind of on their own and developed around them as opposed to the new, the new situation. Now, when we have a, an owner who really wants to be downtown and reflects that same passion for a good, strong downtown, um, you know, they're limited to a couple of sites and they have to take into consideration.

all of the other ancillary effects of the Royals being down there. And of course the ancillary effects of the reason that I support a downtown stadium. So I think you're one of the people that I really would enjoy talking to about this because you have your interests across many areas. And so obviously you care about the city and about the downtown and the urban core.

but you also have an almost unimpeachable track record of caring about everything local, Kansas City, small businesses. And as we look at the proposal that's on the table today, and that's really been, I think, about the primary source of controversy has been that the Royals have chosen a site in the Crossroads area. It's funny, they keep calling, you know, in the paper keeps calling it like the East Crossroads. I think of it.

personally like North Crossroads, if you want to call it that. It's literally the edge of downtown, edge of the loop. The loop hopefully will be erased. But no, I mean, look, I'm in business to make money. I always have been. But I don't believe real estate is a commodity. I don't believe you just develop strip centers. I mean, there's a business doing that, but it's not what excites me. What excites me is the challenge of empty buildings becoming full.

I mean, when I was down in the crossroads back in 94, my friends just couldn't understand it. They go, it's dead down there. And I thought, well, you know, they got to do something with Union Station. They've got to do something with that big piece of land, maybe a hotel at 17th and Central, you know, and why not? And of course, things got better. We get the Performing Arts Center, world -class, and the Union Station was completely renovated.

Kevin (06:59.762)

And a lot of things happened that in unison, but we were always able to maintain old buildings, small tenancies. To this day, I have, you know, 14 buildings. I have 200 tenants. They're all small businesses. And those tenants range from single office tenants to small restaurants, to law firms, to salons. I mean, you know, 63rd street, for example, between Oak and Rock Hill.

was 70 % vacant as a corridor in 2014. And now we're 100 % occupied and it's all small business. And small business got us through COVID. Small business stayed. They're resilient. You know, they're not making corporate decisions from afar. So, you know, being downtown, a lot of people say, well, how could you possibly want the baseball stadium in the crossroads? And, you know, I was initially,

like everybody else, assuming the East Village was the spot. It made all the sense. You could do $2 billion worth of development. And I slowly came around to understand why the location they picked was the one they picked, and this is before they announced it. But I started thinking about the fact that the city of Kansas City is responsible for tax shortfalls, sales tax shortfalls at the Power and Light District and all that development. And, you know,

That's just part of the deal. I mean, if you really look at all the ancillary revenues they get because of the effects of the Paranlight district, it's probably still a positive for the city. However, why would you try to be far enough away that people get there, park, go to a few bars around there and leave and create competition for yourself? Where the location they picked is for the most part, the Kansas city star building.

a newer church building that already they've outgrown, a lot of vacant ground, and then a block of buildings that of course, most people would like to see them not tear those buildings down, but in any development, you will lose some buildings. And they do have to have some ancillary space for parking, for season ticket parking, for offices, a little revenue from a hotel, things to offset the cost.

Kevin (09:24.914)

And so I started looking at it and I said, it's also two blocks from the streetcar as opposed to eight blocks. And if we are going to grow our habit and try to get a, you know, what we call an intermodal transportation option, that is non -car options downtown, whether it be Uber or the streetcar or other forms of transportation, you know, we've got to encourage people to use the streetcar. We've got to encourage people to use Uber. So.

It became apparent to me that the Kansas City Star Building was going to do nothing. And, you know, so I did come to support it. Now, do I support it unconditionally? No, I think there are some challenges that they must deal with and get out in front of. Parking is the number one. Security is a close second. Respect for the people who are being displaced is probably up there at a tie for number one. And,

You know, I've had some talks, I've had some opportunities to talk to the Royals and to talk to the architects. And I do genuinely believe that John Sherman wants to do the right thing. I do believe John Sherman does not want chain restaurants. He's a Kansas City guy. People treat him like he's some hedge fund billion around New York who just landed in our town. No, he's, he lives in Jackson County. He's very charitable. He and his wife are very involved in the community.

and always have been, and I think it's really almost unfair to characterize him just because you're mad about a baseball stadium. And so I have felt that the location is good. And I think it makes a lot more sense, especially if the funding can be extended to cover the freeway another three blocks, or two blocks, whatever the extension of the freeway cover is, because then you genuinely...

have a walkable community. Yeah. I mean, I think if we just talk about the location, just for a second, just that aspect, I feel like I was one of the few people that never liked the East Village site. Yeah. And I always felt like that site was too far from the streetcar. Kansas City is not New York. We're not used to.

Kevin (11:42.418)

We don't have a population used to taking public transportation and walking long distances. And so if we ever, my feeling was if you really wanted people to use the streetcar as an amenity to get back and forth to games, which would be a good thing for the city. Oh, absolutely. Because then people could populate the entire urban core. They could park it at the plaza. They could park at the riverfront, you know, any number of places and then hop on the streetcar and get there. And I think that would be a good thing for our city.

But I've always felt like it needed to be much closer than the East Village site was. Not to mention, the East Village site is surrounded by a bunch of government buildings, which basically close at four or five o 'clock. It's kind of a dead zone downtown. And then east of there, you've got a lot of just really social service issues that are really problematic for thinking about the kind of atmosphere.

that you have in a ball game. And so I think from that standpoint, I was never in love with the East Philly site. And so when they announced the Crossroads site, I think if I were looking at it like if it was a blank slate, if all of that was empty today, it makes a lot of sense. And because it's proximity to so many other things, proximity to Power and Light District.

the ability for all those things to build off of each other, which is something we talked about years ago, like the virtues of an urban ballpark is it becomes like a one plus one equals three situation for entertainment and other uses. And so it seemed to me like the major issues from the site standpoint were the existing businesses that are being displaced. I didn't care about the Casey Star Building at all. I think it's hideous. I'd be happy to see it gone, but.

I know not everybody agrees with me on that, but I think it's hideous. But there are all those, you know, a number of really cool businesses that you and I have probably both been to and really enjoy in that area. And so it's kind of a question of like what happens, what happens to them? Well, and I couldn't. Oh, that's okay. I'll edit that out. Nice ringtone. Yeah, I thought I turned it off. Sorry about that. I forgot to turn it off. Anyway.

Kevin (14:03.058)

I couldn't agree more. You you have the displacement of those businesses is a big deal. Yeah. Um, and you know, the Royals will have to step up and I believe they will. And I believe they've made this indication. They will step up and not only make those businesses whole, but make sure they can relocate close. If not better, uh, they can, uh, you know, whether it be rent deficiencies or anything else they have to do to make sure those businesses can thrive.

Um, you know, in a perfect world, yeah, you'd like to leave Oak street and leave those businesses and actually encapsulate them as part of the stadium. But it's my understanding that, you know, the new green dirt farm might be in right field. And, uh, and that's probably one of the tougher ones. Sure. Um, the green dirt farm, they've invested incredible amount of money and a lot of time and a lot of effort and they're getting ready to open after, you know, it's not easy to set up a cheese making. Oh, and there's such a phenomenon.

They are such a phenomenal business. But the Royals are very well aware of that. And they do have, I think they do have time under the construction schedules to relocate them and pay for all of the things they will need to do to get them back up and running again and hopefully even better. But it, you know, it's important to note that, you know, while if you skip that block, you know,

does the stadium become as self -sufficient as it should be? And remember, there's a billion dollars in private money going into this project. To me, I do listen to some of the bar owners and people who have been very vocal about how opposed they are to it.

And I get it. I empathize. I, I, I, you know, I will tell you, I own a building at 1701 McGee down the crossroads. It faces what will be the new baseball stadium. And we are going to be in the direct impact zone of construction. I mean, all my tenants are going to have to be facing all the perils of a, you know, a billion dollar project going up directly across the street. Um, I think that the, uh, you know, Royals have already announced they have.

Kevin (16:15.474)

construction management plans, they intend on busing workers in from remote lots. I mean, all of these things will go a long way to help. Some people will say, oh, well, you'll make so much money because you own the building. No, the building is rented. It's always been rented. I'm not changing tenants. I just signed a seven -year lease extension knowing the ballpark was slated for that spot with a small office tenant who's, they're part of the church next door and I give them a discounted rent and always have.

You know, I've locked myself into a long -term deal and I won't ever walk away from any of my tenants. I mean, you know, you spoke earlier, I genuinely do believe in small business and I genuinely, you know, I know that I would never rent one of my buildings, you know, to a national credit tenant to, you know, to get double the rent and kick out a local business. I just, just, I'm not in the business, you know.

purely for the money. I make money. I will be the first to say I've been very fortunate with my business success, but really that's due to all my small tenants. I don't remember that those are the ones that brought me here, you know. And so when I do support the baseball stadium where it is, I do that with an absolute solid belief that it will benefit the Crossroads. I think that we do have to, you know, maybe,

create a permit street parking for businesses only, or maybe you hand out scan cards for the day so it can't be baseball parking, but at the same time, identify parking structures. Don't just announce to the public, oh, we've got enough parking, we've done a study. I mean, I'm here from the government, I'm here to help you. I mean, we probably do need to get some very,

clear messaging out there that there are a lot of people in the crossroads who do support the Royals. But we've got to back it up with understanding the real issues people fear. There's a lot of work there to do on a lot of those logistics. And I would say for anybody also curious about Butch's background on the previous podcast that I had him on, we kind of walked through his whole story starting from the very beginning. And I think it's really interesting. I actually think it's

Kevin (18:36.882)

for especially a lot of young people to think about a career path. So I think one of the other aspects of all this, I guess I want to come back a little bit to the small business side of things and putting your real estate hat on. And if you were advising the Royals on like how to handle the real estate side of helping those small businesses, because,

I would imagine most of them are most, if not all, are probably tenants. They probably don't own their buildings. So they're on a lease of some kind. So like if the Royals buy the property, the building owner gets paid. And then the business, you know, they're like, okay, you got to move somewhere. What are the sorts of things that the Royals could do or that, you know, you might think about from a real estate standpoint for a tenant in that situation? Well, of course, you know,

The tenant has rights under a lease, you know, just because the Royals buy the building. If they are forcing or condemning the tenant out of the space, then they have a financial obligation. This is just, you know, pure legal talk. They, you know, they have a financial obligation to make the tenant whole again. And that goes without saying. And, you know, condemnation is not like the old days. It's not a popular thing. They do have the rights of condemnation and you need them. But,

You know, they're very, very much skewed toward the person being purchased or bought out or put out of business. Now, with that said, if I were advising the Royals and I think they listen to this, I think they feel similarly, if you're going to look at the budget and you're going to look at the overall scheme of how much things are going to cost, you know, you might be able to get carpeting at a little lower cost with a lot of work and competitive bid. You might be able to get a lot of different things and, you know, save money.

This is on a place to start trying to cut costs. This is a place that you get a little more than generous for a lot of reasons. The number one, because it's the right thing to do. A small bar owner's bar is as important to her as the Kansas City Royals baseball team are to the ownership group. It's like I say about small office tenants. I pay just as much attention to a single tenant user because from the perspective of both small businesses,

Kevin (21:01.17)

This is their life and they probably work just as hard as the Royals do, you know, and, and, and the chiefs and everybody else. And so treat them with not only fairness, but with a generous nature. Now, if any, you know, they've got to have, you know, it's gotta be reasonable. They've got to have some, um, you know, financials to back up, you know, their business and they've got to be paid. But, you know, I, I'd say to the Royals, you know, let's get out in front of this right now.

And I also think the general public needs to see who the Royals are. I mean, right now they're, you know, they're, they're working hard. I've, I've had some interactions with them and I have found it to be positive. I was at the Crossroads Community Association meeting and while it was a rather, you know, lively meeting for the most part, we put together a community benefits agreement. You know, some of the things we thought were important that the Royals needed to hear about.

public safety, architectural integrity within the neighborhood. And I think there's gonna be a pretty good community benefits agreement announced pretty soon. There is the Community Improvement District, which is a, if you get 51 % of the owners of the property around there to agree to it, you combine a small sales tax and a property tax.

and you start employing security guards and trash pickup and cleanup. Well, the Royals could be a big part of that. And I would advise the Royals give back more than you get. In other words, you know what, you're going to participate in security on game night. Why don't you participate in a security patrol seven nights a week? All of a sudden the crossroads is that much better off because the Royals were there. If you're going to participate in, you know, parking and, and, you know, some of the, uh, you know, you're going to,

park cars there, why don't you help participate in identifying or maybe even building a little bit of parking. You know, some of it for the neighborhood. There's a, I believe the ballpark site also includes, you know, a rather decent sized lot on Locust and during construction, make that open to all, you know, of the neighbors to park in during construction. There's a lot of things they could do that would be a very small percentage of the budget.

Kevin (23:24.178)

that would be very helpful to the neighborhood in the long run and alleviate some of the concerns. Yeah. How do you, how do you think about the parking question? Let's say when the stadium is done. And I know you and I probably think similarly about parking, but we're, we think differently than most people think. And I think your, your average Kansas city is obviously very used to the situation today.

at sports complex and it's easy, it's not cheap anymore, but it's easy and you can see the stadium and everything else. Parking in a downtown situation is really different and there is a lot of parking downtown. There's actually a whole lot of existing parking in garages and on streets, but there's also more and more competition for that use, especially depending on, you know,

the time of day that a game might, that people might actually start coming to a game. So how do you, how would you think about that? How do you talk about that issue with other people? Well, when I am talking about the issue, of course, the number one fear that comes up is, Hey, on game night, I might as well shut down the record bar. I might as well shut down the brick or I might as well shut down my business. It isn't particularly catering to baseball crowds, you know? Um, and, and, uh, because.

No one's going to come down to the ballpark or down to the, to the crossroads if they feel that, well, it's a ball game, there'll be no parking and I'm not going to go pay $20 to park to go get a beer or listen to music. So, you know, my first thought is we must have a restrictive street parking, you know, program in place. And, you know, if, if, if we need to be, we'll be a little progressive about it at the same time, let's identify clearly identify on an app.

that you can look at on your phone, that any website you can look at that says, here are your parking garages, touch the parking garage. It'll tell you how many spaces are available. We're reserve a space right now. Once people feel comfortable where they like to park and where they want to be downtown and they know where they're going, they're going to have a whole lot more, you know, ease in, in, in going to the game. I remember when I was a kid, I went to the, I'm

Kevin (25:45.778)

This will tell you how old I am. I went to the Kansas City A's game at municipal and my dad knew just the right guy to park in his lawn for 25 cents. And we did it every game. But I mean, you know, that, that idea that, that, uh, you familiarize the general public. Um, there's going to be a lot of our population that just is really going to be resistive to going down, down to a ball game. But then there's a whole new generation. They're just used to it. They go down there. And I think the, the job will be.

clearly identify that available parking to clearly put it on a map, let people see it. You know, we're from Missouri, show me. Yeah. Also worth noting that when we built the Sprint Center, we didn't build any new dedicated parking for that. Correct. And by all accounts, that hasn't hurt the Sprint Center at all. No. And I think that, you know, for the Royals, it's looking at the perspective of the businesses around it. I mean, the

When you're inside the loop, you know, you've probably had your business there and always park, parking's always been a concern. You know, we developed the crossroads, you know, we as a city and all of us developers and have lived off a rule that allowed for no street, I mean, no off street parking. If you had 3 ,500 square feet or less, if you have historic buildings, there's no requirement for street parking and allow those buildings are historic. So, you know, that was done with the idea of more and more public transit, which you and I both.

support, but it also did lead to a pretty reasonable dependence upon street parking. So let's save that street parking. Let's say that in front of every building that is a non -office or maybe all the buildings, you have to get a little, if you want to park there, it's for a business. It's sort of like during COVID, they gave part of the parking to restaurants and they let them utilize it. Well,

We do that and you get a little ticket and you scan it and put it in your, you don't have to scan it. You just put it in your, you know, dashboard. And if an officer comes by and they check the scan and it's valid, good. You know, maybe the, you know, brick Riverside or company gives you the ticket or maybe the hair salon, you know, or maybe who's ever opened the brick, you know, or maybe the music, you know, venue does that. So, you know, again, and a lot of those buildings will have their own parking that, that, uh,

Kevin (28:08.306)

that they rely on, but a lot of them, a lot of them don't. I have a parking lot at 17th and Oak and I will only utilize that for my tenants. And I've had a couple of small businesses request, well, would I rent them some nighttime parking? The answer is yes, I would. Before I need baseball parking revenues, I'd rather have, you know, a small restaurant that knows they'll stay in business because that parking lot will be off limits for baseball.

And I think there are other landlords that will make those designations and then we can really call out how many available baseball spots we have. And it's, it is a lot. Yeah. And another aspect of this, which, you why to me, the location as close to the street car as you could get a stadium was important was it, it completely extends the range and location at which somebody might park if they're driving in, say from.

Johnson County, or if you're driving in from north of the river or whatever, by the time a new stadium would open downtown, you would have a, the streetcar would be open from the river to UMKC. And so you could effectively come anywhere into that part of the city. And I know some people may hate hearing this too, because they don't like that idea, but you could drive into let's say the Westport area and you could get a drink before the game at Westport and then hop on the streetcar and take it to the game.

Oh, yeah, and you could do that. You could go to the plaza. You could go to anywhere up and down Main Street or in that corridor in Midtown. And so the the idea that all of the parking has to be like right near the stadium, even for commuters, is it's a different in this situation. And it is. And, you know, maybe there's a deal made with UMKC to utilize that large garage on game nights. Maybe there's a and I think it's a great example. You know, people talk about, well,

Is it really going to pay? Should we be supporting the Royals? You know, well, you know, there's 81 games a year. And you're talking about now, instead of going to the ballpark, pulling in the lot, seeing the game and leaving, you may well be getting off work and getting some dinner. You will have the easy ability in our town to go to Regaza or go to Hill Central or go to one of the restaurants up and down the streetcar line.

Kevin (30:31.89)

have an early dinner, have a couple of drinks, get on the street car, go to the game, come out of the game. And again, getting back on the street car, especially if you're walkable from the street car, which is a small percentage, but a nice percentage, you don't have to worry about the car. And so we'll learn that. I mean, I've often said, don't force people on the street car, encourage them, excite them about it. And quite frankly, our street car has been phenomenally successful in making it free.

I think was the key to success. So yeah, I mean, we do need to, you know, we do need to understand in the big picture, you know, if nothing else, the crossroads wasn't truly successful for coffee shops and restaurants and things like that until we had enough people living downtown who were there all the time and who were there at night and who were not just driving in.

And that happened because of the power and light and because of sprint and because of all the energy that was created and the baseball stadium will do more of the same. More people will live downtown. I believe we have 32 ,000 people living downtown right now. And I wouldn't be surprised to see 42 ,000 people downtown in five years, six years, especially with the baseball stadium there. And then if you really think about, you know, how many cars do you need? Does anybody know? Well,

9 ,000 for a 34 ,000 seat stadium, 1 ,500 will already be included in the ballpark project. So you've got 7 ,500 spaces that you're really looking at, and about 3 ,500 of those will be in the crossroads. I mean, you start dividing these up, and then you look at the intermodal transportations again. You look at the street car, you look at Uber, you look at those things, and you gotta only believe that number will grow.

Right. So, you know. Yeah, we talked about this or joked about it with my wife, who you know. And it's funny how basically everybody our age and younger when they are going out these days for entertainment, they're taking Uber. Absolutely. There are very few people that are driving around. The people my age and older tend to still be driving. No matter what they're doing, they're going to hit a couple of bars, they're going to party hop or whatever it is, they're probably still driving.

Kevin (32:54.45)

the younger crowd is much more used to just using Uber instead. You know, it's interesting, you know, I've probably like you, I mean, I've got a million really fond memories of Kauffman Stadium. And I started going there in the 70s when I was like a little kid. And when the great run that we had at the teams in the late 70s. And the stadium is...

it's a better stadium now than it was then with the improvements they made 20 years ago. So I've always, I mean, I have tons of great memories, but I've, you know, I've traveled enough to know and been around to enough cities to know that it's a terrible location for a baseball stadium where it is now. And we can all argue and debate about maybe what the best or ideal location is, but there's just no question that baseball exists.

so much better when it's part of a neighborhood and it can feed off of other activities and be mutually supportive. I think you just said the magic word neighborhood because I have heard John Sherman quoted as saying, I want to build America's next neighborhood ballpark. I mean, I remember going to Boston because I wanted to see the Red Sox play at Fenway and I got off the subway and I, whatever transportation we were on.

the ballpark and I keep looking around, then I looked up and I go, oh, this is the ballpark. It blended right in and you see these, you know, like Wrigley Field, you see the excitement of people all around you walking into the ballpark and you can see the buildings across the way and you can see, you know, the noise of a city and you know, it's a neighborhood attraction and it's a large one, but it looks a whole lot better than an empty glass building and a big flat parking lot. Let's face it. Yeah.

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. And there's just something a little bit more, almost just magical about the experience of being in a city, coming up to a game and the excitement that happens with that. I'm not saying that there wasn't any of that at Coffin Stadium. There was two. Oh yeah. But it's just, it's a completely different feeling to it. And I don't remember going to municipal stadium back in the day. I probably did when I was like a little, little kid.

Kevin (35:18.486)

Yeah. The huddle club for the chiefs, you know, for a dollar you sit on the grassy hill at the ballpark. Those days are probably over the one dollar ticket. But yeah, you know, and, and, and probably the single most important reason to have the ballpark downtown and where it is, is because instead of all of the money being captured by Jackson County in the Island known as the sports complex, it is now being spread out amongst small businesses. And instead of a game time, you know,

being limited to the time it takes to park and the time it takes to get out. Game time can be right after work and you don't have to go anywhere if you're downtown or whatever restaurant you'd like to eat at along the way. And, you know, the truth is as long as we can preserve the integrity of the Crossroads neighborhood, it can only be a win for the, you know, for the neighborhood. And there are a lot, I've spoken to a lot of people in the Crossroads.

who believe the same way, but all of us believe that there are good things that can come out of this as long as the Royals will be, as they would say, team players, which I believe they are. Well, and I totally get and empathize with all of the people in the crossroads who care so deeply about that neighborhood. I mean, what you and others, many, many others have done over the last three decades or so is fantastic. And taking something,

an area that was very, very quiet, to say the least. And it's really our best neighborhood in a lot of ways in the urban core now. It's so lively and interesting and fun, and there's a great diversity of things going on all the time. And it's continuing to grow and change and expand, which is fantastic to see. So I totally get the...

the feeling that people have of being protective of that. And there are a lot of unique, creative businesses in the area. So I really hope the Royals, if they're successful with the ballot initiative, can find the right balance to keep people happy and enhance the neighborhood and really do something for the businesses that are there and make them feel valued.

Kevin (37:44.886)

because it is a special thing that we've done in Kansas City and I love to see it. Yep, me too. I think it would be, it can be a win -win. And I would hope that, you know, again, I come here as a 30 -year resident, so to speak, or business resident of the Crossroads and care deeply about it and very much, and you know, I think it's only a positive as long as it's done correctly. Yeah.

But I don't care about that Casey star printing press building. No, no. I heard somebody at the Jackson County meeting the other day go, can you imagine you walking in this big, beautiful neighborhood and there's this giant big box, you know, big stadium there. And of course I didn't say it, but I was thinking, are you color buying the color green? That monolith is, I mean, I always thought it was kind of cool, but it's, it's the, I don't know what the use could be.

possibly be. I've heard museum, but boy, that would be, uh, that would be a big museum. We have a lot of museums in this town. No doubt. And oh, by the way, the star got tax abatement for that building. Yes. And the church doesn't pay. Yeah. They got it twice. The church doesn't pay tax. So, you know, and another thing is we have all that ground in the East village that could A, be used for additional parking. And, and I think they could come up with the clever tram system to get people right over to the park if they didn't want to walk.

And B, the church could be moved over there, I would hope. You know, there are strong presence down there. You know, I've heard all the arguments, oh, you know, it's going to, there's $31 million worth of real estate not being taxed. I go, well, it wasn't really being taxed too much anyway. Yeah. And, you know, if you go back to the, I remember the original vision for why we call it East Village anyway, which was, you know, the idea was the property owners and others were going to come together there and build a really cool neighborhood.

and build an urban neighborhood. And that opportunity is still there. And that actually would still be, that would be an ideal solution for moving ahead with that part of downtown. And we can use the people, we can use the development, be a great place for just another wonderful urban neighborhood. Oh, absolutely. And more and more people living downtown and it'll be convenient to services and things like this. Absolutely.

Kevin (40:07.316)

All right, Butch, as we wrap it up here, do you have any other final thoughts or comments? Is there anything we didn't cover? Something I didn't ask? No, I mean, I think my final thought is, you know, for those people out in the audience today who are still very skeptical or very concerned, you know, with good reason, I'd say really, you know, look at some of the solutions and look at some of the other downtown baseball stadiums and how they have.

been very successful with the area around it and reach out, talk, ask the Royals, make those questions public. Not, why are you doing it, but how can we make this work for all of us? And I believe if you really take the time to look at it, there are good solutions and then only better prospects for small businesses in the neighborhood.

Butch, one of the things I've always loved about you, you're such a positive guy and you've always got like a positive outlook on whatever's going on. And I really appreciate that. I think that's great. I think that's well said. Thanks. All right. Well, thank you for joining me. Again, this is the Messy City podcast. If you're new to the podcast, we talk a lot about city planning, design, development issues, not just in Kansas City, but all over the country. And I hope you will.

hit that like or follow button and stay tuned and drop me a line as well. Thanks very much for listening. Take care.

Of all the parts of this enjoyable conversation with Seth Zeren, now of Providence, RI, the part I liked the most was this quote:

The worst fight is with your allies that betray you.

The quote, which is mostly about perception, says a lot about people who are frequently in heated agreement with each other, but find themselves disagreeing on something that’s very minor in the big picture. We discuss this as we discuss his post called, “When New Urbanists and YIMBYs fight.”

Seth has a great Substack, talking about all the overlap in his interests from city planning to development and more. His path and his passion are impressive. From his early days working in local government, to now the cold, hard reality of making development projects work. And what’s next? Perhaps some place management, perhaps some housing policy advocacy, perhaps just more really interesting redevelopment projects.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Transcript:

Kevin (00:01.269)

Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I'm excited today to have Seth Zarin here with me on the podcast. Seth and I have met in the past and corresponded a little bit. Seth has a sub stack that I definitely recommend called Build the Next Right Thing. And he's in Providence, Rhode Island, which is actually, I think, one of the sort of most underrated

smaller cities in the country. I've always really liked Providence, enjoyed it. So Seth, welcome to the podcast. I know we're going to have a lot of good things to talk about. We're going talk some housing and some other stuff, but glad to have you on so we can do this.

Seth Zeren (00:43.574)

Thanks Kevin, it's nice to be here.

Kevin (00:46.261)

I think, you know, Seth, I want to kind of start by talking about you're another guy who has a really interesting path and background into becoming into the development world, which is what you're doing now, but certainly not at all where you started. And I wonder if you could kind of walk people through your professional background and then even like why you wanted to do a sub stack.

in the first place, as some of us silly people do to put thoughts out in the world.

Seth Zeren (01:19.862)

Yeah, absolutely. I usually introduce myself when I meet people by saying that I'm a former climate scientist, recovering city planner, turned real estate developer. I usually get a laugh on recovering. Much like people who have all sorts of addiction issues, city planning is something that you always kind of in the back of your head, always kind of want to work on, but can be really challenging.

Kevin (01:35.381)

Ha ha ha.

Seth Zeren (01:48.918)

I'm actually from California. I grew up in the San Francisco suburbs, south of the city in Silicon Valley, basically. And by the time I graduated high school, it was quite clear that I would never be able to afford to live there. At that point, houses were selling for about a million dollars for a little ranch. Now it's about $3 million. And so by the time I left for college, I sort of knew that the housing situation there had been a little bit of a mess.

broken so much that it was really unlikely that I would be able to find a good quality of life there for myself at that time. In college, I ended up studying geology and climate science. So I was a geology major, geosciences major, and I narrowly averted the PhD. I dodged it, fortunately, and I found myself really becoming interested after college. I went and lived in South Korea for a year and I taught English there. And

It was such a different experience than growing up in an American suburb or in a small town where I went to college. And it really got me thinking a lot. And when I came back to the U S and I went and worked at a boarding school while I was figuring out what I wanted to do with my life. And I started to read about cities and urbanism and architecture. And I realized that, Oh, actually at the time I thought I wanted to go to school and do architecture, but I was really intimidated by portfolio and drawing. And I had, I was a scientist. I mean, I could do data.

I understood geology, but, um, so I was really intimidated by that. I ended up going to an environmental management program at Yale where I could kind of moonlight in law and architecture and business. And so that was kind of my entree. And I discovered I really liked zoning at the time. Uh, and I like to say like, I like board games and zoning is basically just the biggest board game imaginable. It's a huge map, bunch of colored spaces and a really long rule book, which was totally my jam. And.

Kevin (03:38.485)

Yeah. Yeah.

Seth Zeren (03:46.038)

So I was a zoning, big zoning nerd. I interned with the planning department, but you know, in between the two years of graduate school and then got a job as a zoning official after graduate school for Newton, Massachusetts, which is kind of that wealthy first ring suburb outside of Boston where the doctors and professors go to have children. And, uh, I was there for about three years before I kind of realized this was not the place for me. I wanted to do stuff. I wanted to shake things up and.

One of the dynamics you'll encounter when you find a sort of a wealthy sort of trophy suburb, right, is that people buy there because they like what it is. Right. So the political dynamic in a place like Newton, like many wealthy suburbs around many cities in America is people are buying a particular place and they want it to stay that way. That's what they bought. And so there's a real change aversion there, which was just a bad fit for someone in their twenties, whose master's degree and wants to get stuff done. And.

I had also at the time had the opportunity to work with a bunch of developers. And this was coming out of the financial crisis. So there wasn't a lot happening right away, but slowly, slowly things started to get back in gear. And after about three or four years there, I decided I was going to jump ship from the, from the planning side and eventually found myself working at a development shop as a development manager, kind of coming in to do the permitting work. Right. So I just basically switched sides. I was going to go do permitting for the developer.

moving complex projects through design review and master plan approval and stuff like that. And I did that for my sort of early apprenticeship for about three or four years. And got to the point where, you know, I got married, we thought about buying a house and realized Boston was also too expensive. So we started considering other places and Providence was nearby. We'd visited, we had friends here. And at the time, certainly it was massively more affordable than the Boston Cambridge area.

So we moved down here about eight, maybe nine years ago, about. And so I was working as a development manager, you know, for a larger firm. And then when I came down here, I was still working remotely, but I connected with some local developers and eventually joined a local firm, Armory Management Company, which is a 35 year old, almost 40 year old partnership now that has done historic rehab.

Seth Zeren (06:09.782)

Main Street revitalization ground up in field development and came on board here, you know, also as a development manager and kind of worked my way up. Now I'm a partner and working on kind of the future of the firm and future of development in the Providence area. So that's kind of my, my origin story. It's one path. I haven't met a lot of other people who've come through the planner path into development. I would say that I was one of those people that you probably remember this, Kevin, you know, whatever eight, nine, 10 years ago at CNU.

There was this whole conversation about why are you working for shitty developers? You know, to architects, planners, engineers, go be your own. And I took that very much to heart and was trying to find a way to do it. And I've kind of managed to find a way to do it, come through that.

Kevin (06:54.709)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have met a few other folks who kind of started in the planning route and then ended up in development. But yeah, you're right. There's not too many. I mean, one thing I'm curious about, Seth, so like I'm a Midwestern or so. I don't have that experience of growing up someplace and then realizing like I'm never going to be able to come back. I mean, so a lot of Midwesterners like myself leave at some point.

And then often we find our way back home, but it's like, and there may, there's lots of reasons why people do the things, but there's never seems to be this like logistical issue that says, well, I'm just not going to be able to afford to come back where I grew up. What, what's that? And what's that like to at some point have this realization in the place you grew up in, which you probably have some really fond feelings and memories for that you just, you weren't going to be able to make it back or you weren't going to be able to afford to.

make it back. That must be a strange feeling.

Seth Zeren (07:55.414)

It is, and I will say it becomes a lot stranger when you have your own kids, which I have now. I have two young children and we go back to California, you know, once maybe twice a year visit my parents who are still in the house I grew up in. And you know that neighborhood that I grew up in, you know, hasn't built. More than a couple net new homes in the last 50 years, right? Homes get torn down and they get replaced by bigger homes, but.

Kevin (08:00.501)

Yeah, sure.

Seth Zeren (08:24.246)

There's no net additional homes. But my parents raised three kids in that house who all have their own households. My parents are still in that house. So sort of mechanically, if you have a neighborhood that doesn't add any homes, you're essentially, but you have, but you have children, those children have to leave, right? Mechanically, right? And if you then multiply that across an entire region, well, then they have to leave the whole region, which is like why people have to leave California. And I, so I have a very,

like complicated relationship with it. It's like, obviously, it's my home, it has like a smell and weather and just like the culture that is what I grew up with. It's it's I have nostalgia for that. But I also go whenever I go back there, I'm like, this place makes me crazy. Because it's not like you couldn't build more buildings, you know, you couldn't, it's not like the soil can't support more buildings, right? There's no physical limitation, really. It's the self imposed limitation. And then when you go back, especially,

after the last 20 years or so, and you look, you know, here's a region in the world that is the current sort of nexus of tremendous wealth accumulation, right, the Bay Area. And what did we get for it? Right, we got kind of mediocre drive it strip malls, and the, you know, single family houses that go for three and a half million dollars to $5 million. You know, it's similar times in the world, we got, you know,

London, Paris, New York, Chicago, Shanghai, Tokyo, like these metropolitan areas were built and there's this tremendous physical capital that's created by economic growth. But in the Bay Area, it's, it's, it's, it's, so it's kind of depressing for me. I feel like it's helpful to go back as a, as like a cautionary tale, you know, it's, it's a, it's a practice, you know, you have to go to the meditation retreat and struggle. And that's a little bit like what it is for me. Um,

So you would ask why I write and so I'm a full -time developer. I run, you know, commercial development, residential development, run commercial leasing, a lot of architecture design permitting, you know, I would say, you know, there's a lot of different backgrounds. One can bring into the development world and all of them come with different strengths. Uh, being the planner background gives me a lot of facility with permitting. And so zoning is an area where we're really effective zoning historic.

Seth Zeren (10:50.74)

neighborhood relationships, all that kind of stuff. And then finding value in buildings that other people don't see because we look around at what other people are doing in other parts of the country and we're able to import those ideas and try things out. Other people have different advantages that they bring. The reason I write is probably like you, I've got like some thoughts in my head that I have to get out. And, you know, development is a great practical.

you know, craft practice, you know, and it's, I mentioned, I think earlier apprenticeship, like there are a few schools that teach development, real estate development, kinda, but mostly they teach what we think of institutional development. So if you want to go build a skyscraper, go to MIT or Columbia. Fine.

Kevin (11:37.333)

Yeah, MIT's got those great courses and everything else that, yeah.

Seth Zeren (11:39.51)

Yeah, and like, totally fair. Like, that's a reason that's a thing that makes sense in the world, but it's not going to help you, you know, renovate a triple decker or, you know, put up an ad or or renovate a Main Street building. It's just not the skill set. They're not teaching that. So it's an apprenticeship. I mean, it's still really an apprenticeship job. You have to go and you have to go through a lot of stuff and struggle and you see all the pain and suffering and you go through the stress and

Kevin (11:53.877)

Yeah. Yeah.

Seth Zeren (12:08.726)

You start to learn stuff and it's one of those jobs. There's so much to learn that you, you know, here I am 40 a partner doing a bunch of development work and I'm learning stuff every day, right? And we're all learning stuff every day. So it's it's really satisfying in that way, but. It's not necessarily intellectual job, right? I mean, thinking about stuff is important. Math is important. Those are all relevant things, but it's not the only thing that matters. And so I write because trying to figure out some stuff, right? Trying to figure out.

for myself, but then also how to explain things to other people. Um, cause one of things I say to people is that, and I learned this when I became a developer is that like as a developer, I had more in common with the blue collar tradespeople without a college degree in terms of my understanding of the built environment than I did with someone who had my equivalent class background, education, income level, like an attorney or something, right?

They live in a house that they bought from someone else, right? They are a consumer of the built environment, but they know very little about how it gets built. They don't get under the hood. But conversely, like I, you know, the plumber and I under, you know, we're in it together. Now we have very different jobs. We might, you know, we're having a different experience of it, but we both are seeing this world. We're both participating in the making of stuff. And so we end up with this very different environment. And then.

because of the way we've regulated the built environment, now there's this huge chasm between the people who build the cities and the people who consume the cities that are built for them. Because people don't build much for themselves or for their cousin or for their neighbor.

Kevin (13:44.533)

Yeah, yeah, that's a, I mean, that's a really interesting point. I like that Seth. And it sort of resonates with me too. And, you know, in my experiences in design and development and you get some of that in architecture too. If you're the kind of an architect who you spend a lot of time doing construction administration or on job sites, you really, I think get a very different feel for that than if you're just kind of working in schematic design all the time. But yeah, that art of.

creating things. And this is what I kind of often tell people about development. One of the things that just completely, like routinely frustrates me is this sort of parody of developers that's put out in the world. It's like, you know, as the black hat evil people trying to, you know, ruin cities and, and not this understanding that actually, and not that there aren't those people, there are some, you know, there are crappy people in every field. But most developers are just simply in the act of creating things that other people are going to use.

Seth Zeren (14:36.278)

Yeah.

Seth Zeren (14:44.022)

That's true. And I say that all the time as well. And I would add to that, that one of things that's interesting about development, right, coming from planning. So like real estate or city planning, right? Graduate degrees, conferences, magazines, there's even a licensure, right? You get your AICP, go to the conference, get the magazine. It's a profession. Real estate development isn't really a profession.

Kevin (14:44.181)

Like that's the whole point.

Seth Zeren (15:11.254)

You get $2 million and buy a CVS, you're a real estate developer. There you go. You put it on your business card, it's your real estate developer. So there's no professional boundaries for good and for ill. I mean, sometimes I think the boundaries around some of these professions are actually really harmful, but you kind of know what you're going to get. You know what the professional culture is and you kind of know how it changes and you know the institutions. Development really doesn't have any of that. Even the Urban Land Institute, ULI, which is a major player still like,

compared to like the APA and planning is minuscule. And so like part of the challenges is that, so that's one piece of it. It's not really a profession. The other piece of it is that one of the things that's happened in the 20th century is we blew up our development culture, right? We had an ecosystem of building places, you know, that was the design, the construction, the operations, the leasing, the materials.

the trades, there was a sort of ecosystem of it, and we kind of blew it up. We radically transformed it over a short period of decades. And so there's no continuity. So when people do development, there's not a sense of there's any kind of private constraint or private rules. So it feels even less like there's a profession. There's not like a coherent culture, we're going to build more of that, or we're going to evolve incrementally from a coherent culture of building.

We're just going to build whatever you end up. That's where you end up with the like two story building with a mansard. That's like with the weird landscaping. It's just this weird Chimera because the developer and to a large extent, the architects have no grounded. There's, there's no like lineage they're working from. There's no continuity. They're just throwing stuff at the wall, you know,

Kevin (17:00.341)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think one of the other aspects is that in development, so many of the players in the non -institutional world are entrepreneurs. At their heart of hearts, they're entrepreneurs. And it's hard to gather together a whole group of entrepreneurs who are, in some sense, in competition with each other all the time, to feel like a common sense of purpose.

Seth Zeren (17:25.174)

Yeah, and they're often grinding for their own private gain, which in many parts of the United States is sort of seen as not good, right? Profit is bad to a lot of people. And I think that's unfortunate because while certainly people can do bad things and that's not good, making a profit from doing good things is good. It's a good sign. It means you get to do more of it, right? We say we have to make a profit because that's what we, that's the...

Kevin (17:30.101)

Yeah.

Seth Zeren (17:53.062)

seed corn for the next project, right? If we ate all of our seed corn, we would have no next project, right? And if we run out of seed corn, we all starve, right? So you don't get to lose money very many times in real estate before you're out of the game. So it's...

Kevin (18:05.685)

Yeah, well, and nobody bemoans the local cafe or the barbershop or whomever from making a profit. We all want them to make a profit and succeed, but for some reason, the local developer in a business that's far riskier and more expensive, it's like we completely beat them up about the idea that they actually need to make money to keep going.

Seth Zeren (18:22.326)

Yeah.

Seth Zeren (18:27.606)

Yeah. And I think part of it is that there is part of this change in building culture, right? Is that there is where there is more of, or a greater percentage of the built of the new development is sort of seen as done by outsiders for short -term gain. And then they're gone. You know, you'll you've talked to other folks in the incremental development world between the farmer and the hunter, right? And it's we're, we're 90%, 95 % hunters now, you know, instead of 25 % hunters. And that just really changes.

Kevin (18:41.397)

Yeah. Right.

Kevin (18:48.661)

Yeah, sure.

Seth Zeren (18:56.918)

the relationship. So we're a local firm. I work in the neighborhoods in which we live. We work down the block from our projects. If we do a bad job, I have to look at it every day. People know who I am. They're going to yell at me. Like there's a level of responsibility. The profits are most, many of the profits are being reinvested again locally into the next project or into donations to local organizations. So it gets it, you know, not, it's not just as a matter of credibility, but as a matter of like the actual development culture and ecosystem, it's just a better way of life. Um,

I think one of the things that's key though about the developer image, right? Is that there was this real period and formative period for, for you and for me, like in the 60s, 70s, 80s of the real estate developer is always the villain, right? And every hallmark movie and every, you know, real estate developers are always the bad guys. And it's a really easy trope, right? It's, it's, it's change for, you know, we're going to change something that's here now that's good for profit, you know, and then they're going to be gone. Um, we don't have any valorous.

Kevin (19:37.811)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Sure.

Seth Zeren (19:56.442)

examples of the real estate developer in popular culture. And I think if I had a magic wand, I would like I would have some great popular sitcom about, you know, a real estate developer, young Latino builder in LA doing interesting stuff and growing over the course of seasons and be hilarious because there's so much tragic comedy and development. So if anyone out there wants to pitch a show to Hollywood, that's that's what I would pitch. Oh, my God, no, that's not me.

Kevin (20:19.893)

Well, I think you've got your next screenwriting gig. So, give us an example of a project that you're involved with now, something you're working on to get people sent to what you're doing.

Seth Zeren (20:31.798)

Yeah, so yeah, I'll give two quick examples. So we just finished a rehabilitation of an historic structure, four story masonry building that was converted back to residential, right? It had been turned into actually a nursing home. It was first as a hospital than a nursing home in the 20th century. It was originally built as four brick row houses. And so we brought that back to residential. That just finished last summer, 12 units. And that project was really great. It's really beautiful building.

We are a little bit counter -cultural in some times what we do. So we built, in part following the logic of the building, because we were doing a federal historic tax credit project, we didn't want to torture the building. So the units are large. We have, you know, 1500 square foot, two bedroom, two bath apartments, which is on current construction, like weird. It's just, they're really big and they're expensive as a consequence of being big. But what we're finding is there are people who will like nice stuff, and they're willing to pay.

more for an apartment. And it's still cheap compared to New York or Boston. It's expensive in Providence, but there are people who will pay that. And right now we're working on the second phase of that project. So that's probably 26 unit building. We're going to try to get some three bedroom apartments in that, which is again, sort of philosophically, we think it's important that there are places where families could live in multifamily housing. It's on a park. It's a beautiful location. And then the project we just started,

As we acquired a 50 ,000 square foot mill building in a kind of old industrial area of the city that has, it's one of those things where the previous owner kind of ran out of money and attention. So some things got done, but not other things. So we're finishing that up and that project, we are actually going to complete sort of the previous owner's plan, which was to create modestly priced commercial spaces. So we, in our portfolio, about 50, 50 residential and commercial, which isn't.

necessarily by strategy. It's just sort of where we've ended up. Uh, but I think on the margin, we're a little bit more comfortable with commercials than the typical developer or landlord in our area. So because we run so much of it and it's full, I mean, we're 95, 97 % full and commercial across 300 and something thousand square feet. Um, and that's because we price to rent it, you know, and we take a good job caring for it. Uh, we follow the advice of making things smaller if they don't rent.

Seth Zeren (22:57.878)

Right? So if you make them smaller, then you make the rent smaller, which means more people can rent it. Um, and there's turnover, but you have a reusable unit, just like an apartment, people move right into it, uh, run their business out of that. So it's been good. I mean, you know, who knows things could always change, but we see a lot of value in, you know, one of the things that happened in American cities is disinvestment and white flight took place was not only did the people leave, but I'll sort of all the businesses.

So it's like, what is your dentist? Where's your doctor's office? Where's your accountant? Where's your graphic designer? Or, you know, where's your retail shops, you know, your salons, your banks, your restaurants, your bars and restaurants and bars usually come first, but that's only a piece of the ecosystem. You know, it's a whole, you know, you need gyms and retail stores and yoga studios. And I know that sounds kind of trite, but it's sort of a, a, a curating kind of orientation. So this building, part of the strategy is to create a building that is safe.

and modestly priced and not pristine so that it's a building in which people can do work. So it's artists, fabricators who have real businesses but need a space to operate their real business. It's not just a crazy building, spray painting the walls, but a reasonable building, not too expensive, not too fancy, but safe. Sprinklers and a roof that doesn't leak. So that's kind of our current project.

Kevin (24:16.149)

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great model. It reminds me a little bit of one of Monty Anderson's projects in South Dallas, sort of a similar deal, large former industrial building and essentially a minimal, very minimal tenant finish, but incredibly flexible. And if it's priced right, it, you know, in his case, at least up, you know, very quickly. That's a cool model. So I didn't really have any, a whole lot of personal experience with

Providence probably until the CNU was hosted there in what was that? Mid 2000s or so. Which was the best Congress up to that point and the best one until we hosted one in Savannah, of course. And anyway, I was really impressed by Providence. I thought it was...

just an incredibly interesting city, very walkable, really cool architecture everywhere, nice downtown. Just seemed like it had a ton of assets, especially in that region. And like you said, priced very differently than Boston or New York. And so I'm curious about the last decade or so, what's going on in Providence. How's the market there? How are things changing? And as a...

more of like a third tier city, what do you see that's different compared to some of the larger markets?

Seth Zeren (25:47.094)

Well, I think that the big story of the last 10 years is that we're no longer kind of isolated on our own. And I don't know if that's mostly a combination of remote work or if it also has something to do with just how expensive Boston and New York have become and other cities. And Providence has seen some of the highest year over year property appreciation in the country. So you're right. It's a nice place to live, you know, and then if you're paying, you know,

$3 ,500 a month for, you know, kind of crappy two bedroom apartment in Somerville, you move to Providence and you can get a really nice apartment for $3 ,500 or you can save a bunch of money. And so that it's not so similar for me, right? We moved down here because it was cheaper. And so that adds demand. It adds demand in the upper end of the market. So a big part of what's happening in Providence, Rhode Island is, is that there's a relatively small number.

but of people with a fair amount of resources, income and capital moving here. And the state chronically, because it's sort of been tucked away for a long time, it has very little home construction, right? We are the last, second to last, third to last in per capita home construction every year for the last few decades. And so the intersection of those two things is causing a really crazy housing spike and a lot of angst.

And for myself, this is one of the places where like my own experience growing up in the Bay Area and then having my own kids has really hit home because, you know, I know in 20 years, I'm still going to need a house to live in. And my two kids are probably each going to want their own house to live in or apartment. Right. So I either got to build them one. They're going to buy yours or they got to leave. It's math. Right. And so it's put the question of housing shortage kind of on the sharp end of the stick for me personally.

Right? Is, you know, am I going to be able to see my grandchildren more than once or twice a year kind of thing? You know, and that's a big deal. Right. And I know people don't quite appreciate it yet. I feel a little bit like a harbinger of doom sometimes because in Rhode Island, the feeling is like this could never happen here. Right. Because we're kind of this backwater sort of economically hasn't done well since deindustrialization. You know, there's some bright spots, but it's a little tough and nice quality of life, but not too expensive. And that whole script.

Seth Zeren (28:13.142)

of worked for a generation or two, but it's not relevant anymore unfortunately. And then that psychic cultural transformation is going to be really hard.

Kevin (28:23.541)

So coming from the background that you came from, how do you compare the development or the regulatory apparatus in Rhode Island and in Providence compared to places you've worked or pros and cons and what's going on there?

Seth Zeren (28:36.086)

Oh boy.

Seth Zeren (28:41.494)

Yeah, when I go to CNU and I'd say I'm from New England, they're like, how do you work there? Because it's hard. Yeah, we're more heavily regulated region. I think that in some ways that's beneficial to someone like me, right? If you're good at navigating the rules, then it's actually to your advantage to work in a regulated market because there's, you I'm not competing on how cheaply I can put up drywall. I'm competing on who can come up with the most creative use of land and get through the regs.

Kevin (28:45.685)

Ha ha ha ha.

Seth Zeren (29:13.686)

It's, you know, Providence itself has a mod, what I would call like a modern zoning ordinance. It's got a lot of, you know, there's things I would quibble with, there's things I would change, but it's basically a functioning ordinance that like does the right things more or less, right? And which is great. We mostly work in Providence. I'd say the rest of the state, like most of the rest of New England, it's still like 1955 and there's no...

resources, no political impetus to like really fix that yet. I've, I've helped one of my responses is I helped found last year a group called Neighbors Welcome Rhode Island, which is a sort of strong towns meets UMB type or organization that we're still kind of launching a website now. We're working on legislation, state level legislation, and also trying to support local organizing in these towns.

Seth Zeren (30:14.998)

So it's a, it's, it's, you know, very similar to the markets I'm used to. It's a new England place. Everyone's in everyone else's business. The place has been inhabited buildings on it for, for, you know, hundreds of years. I think one thing that's always interesting about, about new England though, you know, compared to the national conversation is the missing middle is not missing here. Like our cities are made out of triple deckers, twos, threes, fours, sixes all over the place.

Kevin (30:37.653)

Mm -hmm.

Seth Zeren (30:43.062)

Our problem is we don't know what comes next. So a city like Providence right now, the only plan is, and this is true, Boston and these places, you can, sure, you can build on the vacant lots and there's a bunch of vacant lots and you can build those for a while. There's gonna be some bad commercial buildings. You can build on those for a while. There's some old industrial land. You're gonna build on that for a while. But in a different way, but similar to the regions where everything's zoned single family and it's built out single family, you can't add anything.

to the bulk of the neighborhoods, which are zoned for two and three family homes, because there's already two and three family homes there. And what we don't have, and I don't think anyone has an answer to this, is how do you create a building typology and a business model and a regulatory framework, building code, zoning code, et cetera, to add density to those neighborhoods, to take a three -family neighborhood and bring it to the next increment.

whatever that is, because I don't, I don't think we have a model for that other than to go to a full like five over one big apartment building, but the land assemblage there is really prohibitive. So what's the next thing that's denser than three families on 5 ,000 square foot lots, but isn't a big commercial building. And I don't think we have an answer for that yet. I mean, as a urbanist architecture development community, and we certainly don't have a regulatory framework that will allow us to build it either. So that's like an R and D project. That's sort of a back burner curiosity of mine.

Kevin (32:08.981)

Does the regulatory framework allow you to build the triple -deckers in place?

Seth Zeren (32:14.198)

Uh, under zoning. Yeah, kind of under building code. No, right. Cause triple deckers are commercial code. So you need sprinklers. So you can't build them. The cost difference. You'd just build a big two family instead of building a three family. It's a much better strategy. So one of the things that neighbors welcome is proposing this legislative cycle to follow on North Carolina's example and Memphis's examples to move three, four, five, six family dwellings into the residential code. And, you know, with no sprinklers, a single stair. Um,

And, you know, we'll keep the two hour rating, just add more drywall. Okay, fine. But, you know, that's one of the things we're proposing along with a single stair reform for the small apartment buildings. But yeah, I mean, it's a chicken and the egg, right? There's no point coming up with the prototype and you can't build it. But then no one wants to reform the building code because there's no prototype that makes sense that people are excited about. So it's really kind of trapped. And so, you know, that's an interesting challenge that we struggle with.

Kevin (33:14.069)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting thing to think about what that next increment to would be beyond the freestanding, you know, triple deckers and stuff like that. Because, you know, I guess the first thing that comes to mind as you start to think about neighborhoods more like you would see in New York or Boston, certain parts of those cities that went to like five and six story walk up buildings that, yeah, yeah. And they're not.

Seth Zeren (33:39.476)

Buildings that touch. That's the big thing.

Kevin (33:43.931)

really townhouses wouldn't call them townhouses, but they might be like a five story walk up. Like you'd see, you know, on the upper East or upper East side or upper West side or something like that.

Seth Zeren (33:49.598)

Yeah.

Seth Zeren (33:52.982)

Yeah, there's two tiers, I think. There is a version that's more about lot subdivision, right? So we have decently sized lots and three families are big, but you might be able to get some more houses on them or bigger versions. And then I certainly moving to the part where you have party wall construction and the buildings that touch, you recover a bunch of lost area to thin side yards that no one can use. That tier is really interesting because you could probably keep them as owner occupant.

Right? They'd be small, you know, two, three, four families, but on smaller piece of land, you know, buildings that touch whatever the next year above that, you know, which is like a single stair elevator, five, six stories, you know, 20 apartments. That's a commercial loan. It's a commercial operator. And, you one of the virtues of the triple decker, right, is that you have a distributed ownership, right? So that it's not just.

You know, we have tons of landlords in the state, you know, because everyone I own, the triple decker I live in, right? Everybody owns, you know, a two family, a three family mom, grandma's two family, right? It's just it, there's so many opportunities for people to be small landlords for good and for ill, mostly I think for good, but there are, there are some limitations to it. Um, you know, so when I look around at international examples, right. You know, so for example, I teach real estate development on the side, cause I really care about bringing more people into this profession and not profession trade.

craft, whatever. And I had some European students last fall, and I brought them to Providence on a field trip, took them around my neighborhood, which is, you know, to native Rhode Islanders like the hood. It's like the inner city. Ooh, scary. And they're like, this is a very nice suburb, right? Because to them, a bunch of detached two and three family dwellings with a few vacant lots in between them or parking lots, this is suburban density. And they're wrong. And they're not wrong. They're right.

Kevin (35:19.893)

Yeah.

Seth Zeren (35:47.786)

you know, historically like that, that was a transition. You'd go from town, right? Which is mostly detached, small multifamily buildings to herb to the city. The building starts to touch because the frontage is really valuable and you wouldn't just leave it for like, you know, five foot grass strips and whatever. Um, and so, you know, it still ends up being quite car focused because, you know, everything is sort of far apart and you know, you got to fill in the empty gaps.

Kevin (36:13.781)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of that reminds me a little bit of what Jane Jacobs used to talk about in Death and Life of Great American Cities as sort of like the gray zones. Yeah, the in -between density.

Seth Zeren (36:23.094)

Yeah, the gray density. Yeah. And what I would say is what happened to my neighborhood to a certain extent, and I think this is true of a lot of American, you know, urban neighborhoods, you know, sort of pre -auto suburbanization is that what happened, there was so much, there was a lot of removal, even where there wasn't wholesale urban renewal, you know, mercantile buildings were taken down and replaced with a gas station, right, or a parking lot. And the church is, you know, brought down, you know, there's little holes in the fabric.

And when I look at the neighborhood as like someone who thinks about cities and can see, can, you know, learns to look in that way, it's kind of looks like someone who's slightly sick, right? Their skin's a little pale, a little drawn, you know, there's a little yellow in their eyes. That's what it kind of feels like. And so it's about kind of filling it back up again. I think we've kind of, in a lot of cases, we kind of dipped down into the gray zone and we're trying to get back into it because once we get kind of out of that gray zone, adding density is good.

Right, it brings more services, more people, which can support more businesses. And there's this positive feedback that strengthens the neighborhood and makes it better. But in the gray zone, it's like, well, is more people gonna make it worse? Like, what are we? It's a nice callback, because most people don't make it past parks in death and life. It's just too bad. I tell them all the good bits are at the end.

Kevin (37:37.781)

There's many good bits. But yeah, I think there's an interesting aspect of American cities in particular there where you have, and I think about this a lot, we wrestle with this so much in my part of town in Kansas City where there is a sort of urban density that actually works pretty well where everybody pretty much drives still, right? If you know what I mean, like it.

Seth Zeren (38:05.526)

Yep. Yep. Bye, Norris.

Kevin (38:06.869)

The parking is easy and it's just not that, it's not really urban, but it's not really suburban. And I think there was a generation of people who re -occupied a lot of urban places like that in the 70s and 80s in particular, who love it for that. They love the fact that they're like in the city, but it's like parking was easy. Now the problem is, yeah.

Seth Zeren (38:17.91)

Yeah.

Seth Zeren (38:32.182)

Yep, we have that here too, absolutely.

Kevin (38:34.997)

The problem is like historically that was a complete non -starter. Those neighborhoods had far more people, were far more urban. And by today's standards, it would have been incredibly difficult to have a car and drive it around everywhere and park it.

Seth Zeren (38:49.258)

Well, people forget that like you could have the same number of housing units and have fewer people because house hold size is so much smaller today. So the street is relatively empty, right? Compared to when grandma was living here, you know, 80 years ago, um, as far fewer people around.

Kevin (38:53.365)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (39:03.381)

Yeah. And now with the prevalence of like one car per adult everywhere, the challenge of trying to upgrade those neighborhoods to become more like their historical predecessors, it does create a lot of conflict because then all of a sudden we are wrestling with the, it's really the car issue in many respects. Yeah.

Seth Zeren (39:15.798)

Yeah.

Seth Zeren (39:22.774)

Yeah, you're moving from one equilibrium to another equilibrium. And that's always really painful because it's going to reduce quality along the trip, even if you end up in a better place on the other side. You know, one of the things I find really helpful or really valuable, and I admired your work about this, is the business improvement district. And I don't know, whatever we call that microform of government. And we're involved in helping create one on a main street near us that has suffered from a tremendous amount of urban renewal and...

Kevin (39:32.501)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (39:46.003)

Mm -hmm.

Seth Zeren (39:53.3)

institutional concentration and we're trying to figure out how to improve that. And one of things that I've learned from doing that is that the city, even with a pretty strong planning department, Providence has a good planning department, lots of good people, plenty of staff. It's not low capacity, but they got a big city to run, right? And they can't know it super deeply everywhere all the time, right? And here, and I'm involved because we own a bunch of property nearby and I've been working in the area for years. And so I get to know all the other owners and I get to know the

the nonprofits and the businesses and residents and you know, but I'm working on like eight square blocks, if that right. And I know that really well. I can talk about this block versus this block and this crosswalk and that curb and this parking lot and that, that tenant and you know, at that micro level. And it just seems to me that that's gotta be the future of a lot of this governance stuff. Cause to get out of that bad equilibrium is going to require a bunch of really careful.

tactical hands -on changes to infrastructure, to private development, public, you know, all those pieces. And when I look at the whole city, I'm like, there's not enough coordination, right? There's not enough attention. There's too many things going on, too many fires to fight. It's at that micro level that I could kind of organize enough people, run the small planning exercise, coordinate the private development, coordinate the public investment and keep on top of everybody. But it's only, you know, eight square blocks, right? In a big city.

So how does that work?

Kevin (41:21.525)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's something we've wrestled with a lot and we obviously do a bunch of it here, but I'm a big believer in, you know, place management at that scale. And I think one of the issues that we've seen over and over again is, you know, my city is even much bigger. It's like 320 square miles geographically. It's insanely large. Half a million people in the city limits. So like relatively low density for that large of a city, but...

the ability of staff to actually manage all that and know what's going on. It's impossible. It's literally impossible. Yeah.

Seth Zeren (41:57.142)

Well, I've been city staff and I remember how insane it was. I mean, you don't get out of the building because you're too busy answering emails. You know, this is like you fight with the engineers or whoever about an intersection is like, have you ever stood in the intersection for an hour? Because I have, right? Because I'm there all the time. But you can't run the city, you know, not getting out into the field and seeing the mucky bits, right? And that's like.

Kevin (42:17.045)

Yeah, there's just a there's a huge mismatch in how we manage cities and their ability to change and solve just solve problems, solve basic problems.

Seth Zeren (42:25.43)

Well, so one of my questions is, is that in part because like the way we teach kind of all the pieces of city building and management is kind of like, and it feels like they're individually busted and then the system is busted. So like public administration, civil engineering, architecture, planning, you know, development, all, you know, whatever that there's a whole package of different professional schools that you could go to that would teach you these different skills, but none of them talk to each other.

And so when they're graduates, I remember being a planner and then talking to the civil engineer Newton being like, we're from different planets, man. Like the words I'm saying, you don't understand the words you're saying, I don't understand, like, and no one's in charge. So we're just kind of like, because every department, one of the things that happens in cities, right, is every department is co equal under the under a mayor or city manager or something. So like planning department can't tell DPW what to do. They're the same level, you know, and so we're just kind of butt heads.

Kevin (43:01.493)

Hehehehehe

Seth Zeren (43:23.67)

But planning is in a particularly bad situation because they don't have any shovels or trucks or much free cash or anything else. They don't get to do much. Their only power is persuasion.

Kevin (43:33.525)

And it's the first jobs that are cut whenever there's a recession too. But yeah, I mean, the whole industry is very siloed. And this has kind of been the classic battle of the new urbanism from the beginning was really the push from our side was to create generalists, that people who could pull everything together. And our charrette process was designed to bring all those people together and problem solve at the same time.

Seth Zeren (43:36.83)

Yeah.

Kevin (44:03.317)

And that actually worked really well, and it does work really well when you're able to facilitate that. The challenge you have in a lot of city governments that I've seen is that they're just like you said, they're all vertically, you know, all differentiated vertically and it's all siloed. And there's not a ton of incentive for the different departments to understand each other and work together unless you have a particularly strong executive who forces that to happen.

Seth Zeren (44:28.662)

Yeah, that's really the game. It's like, does your executive get it and care and willing to spend the time on it? You've said something really interesting in the past on other versions of this podcast, which is that, I don't know if I'll get it exactly right, but we spend like 50 % of the time on design, 40 % on policy and 10 % on implementation. And we should be like a third, a third, a third. Here's the thing. I feel like the charrette process is really great, but then the charrette leaves. New urbanists don't have, as far as I can tell, much of an answer of how you actually run the city.

There's no proposal on how to reorganize the departments of the city government. There's no proposal on charter reform for cities or, you know, there's a whole universe of, you what should the education for a city manager be? Right. We have, we have an idea about what planning should do differently, you know, and so there's bits and pieces, strong towns, urban three, talk a little bit about the finance side. We're just starting to think about it. When you open that door, you realize, oh my gosh, where are the new urbanist police chiefs? Where are the new urbanist fire chiefs? Right.

the controllers, the tax assessors, there's this huge apparatus of public entities that are out there. And I guess part of the reason why the place management is so cool is that you get to actually just be a little micro government. And instead of having to silo off every little bit of things, you're a taxing entity, you can also go hire people to put out flowers, you can also write regulations, you're a whole thing. And so likewise, I feel like the CNU universe has not yet...

Kevin (45:47.541)

Yeah. Yeah.

Seth Zeren (45:55.19)

really contended with like the mucky bits of administering, managing the city.

Kevin (46:00.245)

Yeah, I think that's totally, I think it's totally fair. And, you know, I got a lot of that thinking from Liz Plater -Zyberg who, and so the way she broke it down was design, policy and management. That's the three legs of the stool. Most of the people who came to the new urbanism originally and were most passionate were designers. So they had a very heavy emphasis on design. There were also a lot of policy wonks. So you got that policy piece, but yeah, very few people from.

the world of understanding how to actually manage cities. And we've had a lot of interaction and bring people to the table and conferences and all, but I still think very little understanding in that world of how things work.

Seth Zeren (46:42.166)

Well, and you go, I think, to the International Downtown Association, right? The IDA. How is it that the IDA and CNU are still, like, not connected at all? As far as I could tell, right? From the outside, it just, like, the stuff we're doing is so, so connected, right? And so this, I guess, is a plea to the CNU folks and a plea to the IDA folks, like, let's get together, guys. Because, like, CNU can bring a whole bunch of the design and policy ideas. But you're right, we need managers. And manager, Strong Town sometimes talks about how

Kevin (46:45.173)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kevin (46:55.925)

This is a good question.

Seth Zeren (47:11.132)

maintenance is not sexy, right? It's easier to get people to design a new road than just fix the damn road you got. But that's the problem, right? If nobody's interested and we have no way of making management or administration better, like you'll just keep doing new projects and then as soon as you leave, they'll just fall apart, right? Because no one's going to run them when you go.

Kevin (47:32.981)

Yeah, no doubt. And so hopefully we can make that happen. I would have talked with a few people about this that we need to find a way to link up. I mean, there's always been a linkage there, but it's just not nearly as tight and as strong as I think it could be. I'm amazed when I go to the IDA conference just how few new urbanist consultants even bother to attend, which is shocking to me. It's enormous. But yes, I think there's an in...

Seth Zeren (47:53.558)

Yeah, it seems like a huge missed opportunity on both sides.

Kevin (48:02.965)

One of the, I think, ill effects of the last 30 or 40 years of there's been a lot of education that's pushed really smart, ambitious young people into the policy world instead of emphasizing that how important really good management is. First of all, I would say design also. I mean, and problem solving with projects generally is incredibly important.

My bias is doing projects is more important than policy, but I know there's a role for both. But management, God, if you don't have good ongoing management of a place, just like any business, if a business doesn't have good ongoing management, forget it, you're toast. And a city, if it doesn't have it, is gonna suffer tremendously. So, you one, go ahead, go ahead.

Seth Zeren (48:54.038)

Well, I was gonna say, I feel like in my head, I've been thinking about this for a long time. And when I went to school, I went into an environmental management program, quote unquote management, right? It was supposed to train professional people to manage environmental organizations, work in government, work at the forest service, work for nonprofits, working for profits, doing environmental stuff. Were there any classes on management stuff, right? Managing people, managing budgets.

Communications, no, it was all science, which is great, fine, like I need to know some stuff about ecology or water management or whatever, but like, how are we a professional school? You know, we have to go out in the world and run organizations which have budgets and staff and HR and communications and negotiation. You know, you can go to the business school and learn some of that and a lot of people did, but you gotta ask yourself like, well, what are we doing here?

Kevin (49:44.405)

Yeah. Well, man, I had six years of architecture school and there wasn't one business course that was required the whole time.

Seth Zeren (49:49.718)

Yeah, I mean, I see that. And the planning people, you know, maybe it's gotten better. But when I was going through it, I took a negotiations class at the business school, which was the most useful class for being a planner. It was negotiations. Most planners, we don't need people with physical planning backgrounds. I mean, you need someone who can do some physical planning. Mostly you need some social workers because local government is like a family therapy. They have fights going back 20 years with their neighbor about whatever and who's yelling at who. And it's like, we need just some people to get people to talk to each other.

It's not about technical analysis. No one ever voted for my zoning amendment because I had a great analysis. No, it's relationships. So, you know, I look at this as like, and I know there's been efforts around this at CNU, but I think we need to really get serious about building new educational institutions. I don't know that we can do it inside. I mean, we've tried it, you know, at Miami, we've tried it at Notre Dame, and there's been some successes, but it's just not enough, right? 30 years later, you know, there's just...

it hasn't really changed anything in terms of what we're training. So we have another whole generation raised up in the old way of doing business and we're surprised when we get the same results.

Kevin (50:55.829)

Well, one of the things that even mystifies me, somebody who's gone to a lot of architecture schools to do student crits and everything else is like there's this, there's a whole group that have come through in the last, I would say 15 years that don't even know anything now about the early new urbanism because that was like so long ago and it's just not taught. So it's wild to me. It's like that has gone down the memory hole.

Seth Zeren (51:14.038)

Yeah.

Seth Zeren (51:19.35)

Yeah.

Kevin (51:21.077)

So I talk about that a lot with people that I know just to try to keep some of those things going and make sure people have a memory of what actually happened in a lot of those years.

Seth Zeren (51:29.91)

What I think is so striking is I don't think it's actually that much money that would be needed to build some of these institutions. So if anyone out there is listening and wants to write checks, fantastic. But you could get a lot done for not a lot of money building these new institutions. I really do think that. And the scale of impact on society could be really huge. Yeah.

Kevin (51:51.893)

Yeah. Seth, I want to switch gears and do one more topic before we run out of time. I want to hit on this piece that you wrote about Yenbys and New Urbanists in Strong Towns and sort of the differences or perceived differences, you know, amongst the groups. I wonder if you could sort of set the table and talk a little bit about what, where you were going with that one. It's a long piece for anybody who wants to read it, but it's, it's really good.

Seth Zeren (51:55.862)

Oh, sure.

Seth Zeren (52:02.538)

Yeah.

Seth Zeren (52:14.326)

Yeah, it's on my my sub stack build the next right thing which is I have small children So we watch a lot of Disney movies. That's do the next right thing, which is a song from frozen 2 But related to incrementalism, right? You don't have to know the final answer You just when you and you're confused you just do the next right thing, you know, you're gonna work your way through it solve the problem incrementally Pragmatically, it's very American way to work. It's good. That's build the next right thing and

Kevin (52:27.533)

Know it well.

Seth Zeren (52:45.27)

It's a part because like getting to utopia is not like you're not going to take one jump to utopia. We got to like work in the world we're in. So this piece came out actually, ironically, I started writing this in the emergency room with my child in the middle of the night. Because when you have little children, sometimes they eat like stuff and you end up in the emergency room in the middle of the night. So I'm like, I'm like starting to jot down some notes and the notes were really stimulated by another guy, Steve Mouzon, who's been on your show, I think, who, you know, is active on Twitter and occasionally.

regularly gets in fights with sort of the very online Yimby crowd. And then there was an exchange, you know, about a piece that Steve wrote and some other people responded. And, you know, a lot of people that I'm considered I like or I appreciate their work. I mean, I appreciate Steve's work. I assign his book on on on the original green. I appreciate Nolan Gray's work. I assign his his stuff. So but I was really struck by this continuing like fight.

In this case, between the CNU and the Yenbis. And in my analysis, I mean, you can go read the piece, but I'll give you the really short version. It's basically that, and since I'm from California, I'm very sympathetic to the Yenbi argument, right? I feel it in my bones, right? I can never return to the soil I was raised on because of the failure that has gone before us. So in the Yenbi world, it's all about supply. We got to build a bunch of homes, right? And that's the overriding value and virtue and goal.

right? You see it celebrate. We're going to build so many more homes. And the new urbanist orientation, which is really importantly different for a few reasons. First of all, it was started in the eighties and nineties when there wasn't a housing crisis. So the DNA is not built around a housing crisis was built around building crappy places, right? Go read, you know, uh, suburban nation, right? It's about building bad stuff. Read consular, you know, that's, that's the DNA. It's also mostly working in the South, you know, in the Midwest to a certain extent where

There hasn't been a supply crunch, you know, because they're building stuff, right? It's building sprawl. We can build better sprawl, worse sprawl, but it's still just getting built. And so, you know, a lot of that is about quality. How do we build good places? And so what's so frustrating about, I think, to both sides about the EMBC and U debate is that often we agree. Often building density and building quality are the same. So we're on the same team, but sometimes they're not. And the worst...

Seth Zeren (55:12.502)

fight is with your ally who betrays you, right? Your enemies, yeah, f**k that guy, he's terrible, right? You know, that's easy, but my friend, I thought you were with me, but now we're not, ah. And so that's what keeps happening, right? The CNU folks are like, you know, that might be a little bit too much density, aren't you worried about the blank walls? Aren't you worried about X, Y, and Z? And then, and the, and the, the Yenbis are like, are you kidding, man? Like we're all homeless, like, unless we build this building, we don't have time for your cute little nonsense. You know, your ADU is just too slow, whatever.

Kevin (55:15.477)

You

Seth Zeren (55:41.878)

And so that's, that's on sort of goals and the people are different, right? The CNU architects first developers planners, the Yimby movement really comes out of activists, uh, political advocates, regular people, software engineers who are not professional built environment people, uh, lawyers, right? It's a policy oriented movement, economists, right? That's the core. That's their intellectual DNA is.

know, economists at George Mason, whereas the CNU, it's, it's an, a few architects at Miami. That's really different DNA, right? And I think the CNU has, for whatever reason, not really, it's done some behind the scenes politics, you know, policy change, right? There's been really important behind the scenes policy change, very not visible to normal people. It's never been interested in mass mobilization, you know, votes.

persuading elected officials, it's not their jam. The Yenby movement is a political advocacy movement, right? So they're trying to like win votes and get lost. So the Yenby folks have gotten more bills passed that does a bunch of CNU ideas, right? The missing middle, ADUs, all the stuff that CNU came up with like 20, 30 years ago is being mandated by bills passed by Yenby. So they're like, CNU guys, we're doing the thing. Why are you yelling at us? Right? But the Yenbys don't always appreciate that the CNU has,

rebuilt so much of the DNA of 20th century planning. So like, complete streets was like a CNU invention. People don't realize that anymore because it's now so mainstream. And so there's this sort of tension where people don't see the benefits the others have provided because they're kind of operating in different styles. So that's, I think, the sort of core tension. And then I added the strong towns because strong towns sometimes finds itself fighting with both of them.

And often aligned, right? Often we're all the same team, right? I consider myself a Yimby. I run a Yimby organization. I also am a Strong Towns founding member and I've been at CNU a lot. But they're subtly different, right? The Strong Towns thing that puts them at odds with some of these groups is that Strong Towns core idea is that we need to reengage bottom -up feedback, right? That the system is too top -down, too...

Seth Zeren (58:06.454)

tightly wound, too fixed, too set. So we build these places that are built to a finished state. We can't ever change them. We have tables that are not responsive to content. So we're just locked up. We can't get anything done. And the Strong Town's idea is, well, we need the systems to be responsive, right? If housing prices go up, we should build. If they don't go up, we shouldn't build. We need to make the streets context sensitive. And so on the one hand, we're all for getting rid of parking requirements and upzoning stuff. So the inbys are like, great.

But then sometimes we're like, well, that might be too much of zoning. Here's some reasons why. And the Yenbis are like, wait, I thought you were pro density. I thought you were pro development. We're like, yes, but right. Uh, the strong towns, people would worry that the Yenbis in 1950 would have been the suburban sprawl advocates, right? They would have said, we need the houses now. Damn the consequences. We're not going to worry about fiscal insolvency in 50 years. We're just going to build the houses now. You know, that's, so that's the strong towns. Sort tension with the Yenby movement is the top down, the sort of.

And this is a result of your movement being led by political advocates and attorneys and economists, right? There's the concern about that kind of top -down policy orientation, these sort of single metrics, let's get it done. And then I think sometimes there's also debate with the CNU around things trying to be too precious. There is a tension within the CNU movement between sort of the messy side and the sort of all buttoned up side. And...

So I think there's just interesting tension there. I mean, what do you make of the debate between the UMBs and the CNU?

Kevin (59:38.037)

Well, I think when the Yenbis first came on the scene 10 or 15 years ago, I remember kind of urging some of our colleagues to engage and say, it's like we need to bring these people into the fold. These are our allies. And also, there's a, I think one of the other differences that is hard to overlook is that there's a generational difference. Seeing you people are probably like my age and older.

Seth Zeren (01:00:06.816)

Mm -hmm.

Kevin (01:00:07.635)

Primarily, CNU is trying to change that. They want to change that. They really want to appeal to younger generations. But the dominant voices are definitely Gen Xers and Boomers for the most part. And the Yimby movement is a millennial -led movement for the most part. And I think there's a difference there that also we have to unpack. So I felt like CNU should have been

a little more proactive to really bring the YIMBY folks into the fold and help them understand everything that we've been trying to do for 30 years or more, and then build an Alliance. But that has not really happened. And now there is kind of a tension there. And yeah, exactly. Yeah. Were you at the session I did in Charlotte with the sort of YIMBY debate or whatever we called it?

Seth Zeren (01:00:52.246)

I mean they have their own conference, right? It's happening next week or something, right?

Seth Zeren (01:01:04.31)

I don't think I made that one. Sorry, you'll have to...

Kevin (01:01:05.909)

It was actually, well, yeah, it was part of the CNU session, not Strong Towns. And I got thrown into it at the last second because they couldn't find somebody to debate the Laura, who's the Yenby action head from San Francisco. And I was like, sure, I'll debate her, whatever. I don't know what we have to agree or disagree about, but throw me in the room and we'll do it. And it did tease out to me some differences. And...

Seth Zeren (01:01:09.878)

Yeah.

Seth Zeren (01:01:22.134)

Oh, nice.

Kevin (01:01:33.973)

Uh, and, and I think you have, you fairly characterized a lot of it. I think from, if I were to, if I were to steel man the C and U position, um, it would be that, um, there's no point in just building lots of stuff if it's garbage. We've been down that road before. And if we're just building stuff to build stuff, a generation or two from now, we're going to find we regret all of it.

and it's not going to have a future. Because we did that, especially in the post -war era. We built an awful lot of, you know, we had an incredible housing demand in the post -war era that we needed to deal with. We did have a much more flexible regulatory structure at that time, but we built lots of suburban sprawl that has not aged well. And we built a lot of urban renewal, a lot of which has been torn down in the year since, because it was so awful.

and it was terrible for human beings. And so I under, you know, my own inclination is to frankly be much more laissez faire and that we should be able to just, by and large, people should be able to build what they want to build. And I don't get as caught up in probably some of those specifics as others in this union world do, but I do have a lot of empathy for the fact that.

we actually should all care about building really quality places that we're going to want to keep around for 100 years.

Seth Zeren (01:03:06.774)

And I think part of the distinction too that I think I have to explain to people is like, if you got rid of the zoning tomorrow, you wouldn't start building what we built in the 19 teens and twenties. Cause we don't have that building culture. That's why I come back to the building culture. It's the whole ecosystem of attitudes, assumptions, and practices doesn't exist today. So I tend to look at it as sort of, it's like a, it's like there's scar tissue, right? And you need physical therapy, right? It's hurt, it's kind of healed, but it's healed wonky. Now we need to go through a process of kind of,

Kevin (01:03:14.837)

No, no, we. Right. Yep.

Kevin (01:03:22.997)

Yeah. Yep.

Seth Zeren (01:03:36.316)

exercises and stretching and strengthening and repairing that's going to take a while, but eventually will restore function. And it won't be quite the same, but it'll be better. And that's like at a cultural level, what we kind of need to do to restore the.

Kevin (01:03:48.597)

or the cynical way, it's methadone. So, you know, we're...

Seth Zeren (01:03:53.334)

I'd like to do better than methadone. I mean, that methadone is design regulations. The form -based codes are methadone, right? They're like, they don't, I mean, but at the same time, to the extent that they actually could teach architects and developers how to build not shitty buildings, okay, that could make sense. It's that education program, if it works.

Kevin (01:03:57.717)

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Kevin (01:04:10.293)

Yeah. And it's funny because I always find it funny when the form -based codes come under attack. And I've got my own issues. I've talked about it before. But certainly when I was doing a lot of form -based codes back in the day, we basically pitched them as we're doing these as a method of deregulation, that we're creating a type of ordinance that is going to allow for a whole lot more development than your current ordinance does. And.

which is true. And that's how most of them work out. Now they've also got their own problems and they've had a lot of issues with being able to scale. But, you know, I think that's one of the routes, that's kind of one of the flashpoints. So anyway, I just, I think the whole thing is interesting. I like the way you handled it and talked about it. And I look forward to more, hopefully some coming together. One of the challenges is that the Yimby movement has ascended.

The CNU is aging out and a lot of questions about what future it has. So I hope the CNU folks who care will kind of wake up to that and try to engage more and help shape the changes that are coming.

Seth Zeren (01:05:20.214)

Yeah, I share that fear and one of things that I noticed though, and one of reasons why I really hope CNU finds a way to kind of pass the torch is it's the only conference where everybody comes together across the built environment, right? The architects come, engineers, planners, developers, public administrators, transportation folks, like they all can come to this conference that actually touches all of their things. If a CNU conference and community goes away,

Kevin (01:05:33.813)

Yep.

Seth Zeren (01:05:48.694)

We're all going back to our silos and there's going to be no cross fertilization. I think we'll all be much poorer as a society for it.

Kevin (01:05:53.973)

No doubt, no Seth, that actually seems like a great place to wrap it. I appreciate it. This has been really great. Remind people where they can find you.

Seth Zeren (01:05:58.454)

Yeah, thanks, Kevin.

Seth Zeren (01:06:03.638)

Oh, uh, uh, build the next right thing. You'll find it on sub stack with Google or whatever.

Kevin (01:06:09.749)

and then you're on Twitter as well.

Seth Zeren (01:06:11.51)

Oh, I'm on Twitter, yes. It's Seth .Zarin. It's very easy to find.

Kevin (01:06:17.075)

All right, good, good. Well, hey, good luck with everything in Providence and hopefully we'll see each other some point in person. So.

Seth Zeren (01:06:21.206)

Thank you.

Seth Zeren (01:06:25.654)

Yeah, well, I hope to see you at CNU this year. All right. Take care, Kevin. Have a good day. Bye.

Kevin (01:06:27.989)

Yeah, I plan to be there. All right. You too, CSF. Bye.