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242: How to Talk SIP With Your Wine Club | Marketing Tip Monday
Episode 242
Monday, August 26, 2024 • Duration 02:15
[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: For your wine club members. Is there anything more exciting than delivery day? Unboxing the latest assortment, stir sweet memories of their last visit to the winery and welcomes them to once again, connect with your community.
[00:00:13] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While, our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable. Winegrowing.
[00:00:32] Your wine club newsletter prepares your customer for the delights ahead, but does it invite them to relish in the social and environmental virtues of their loyalty?
[00:00:42] Next time you send out a newsletter, include a sustainability tidbit. So your brands enthusiasts know that they're sipping sustainably.
[00:00:50] You can start by including a brief description of the sustainable practices at your property. For SIP certified brands, we talk about the seven values. Which includes social responsibility, wiper management, safe, pest management. Energy efficiency, habitat business, and always evolving.
[00:01:08] A great way to help your customers really see what you're doing to be sustainable is to share your sustainable story.
[00:01:15] You can talk about attracting barn owls and releasing beneficial insects to help manage pests naturally.
[00:01:22] You can share pictures of the native plants in your cover crop and explain how they benefit pollinators and help improve soil health.
[00:01:28] Or you could talk about how you treat winery, process water. So that it can be reused to irrigate the landscape or the vineyard.
[00:01:36] Your customers will love learning how your brand conserves and protects natural resources.
Tell Your Sustainable Story
[00:01:42] If you need more ideas, make sure you check out our newly updated course. We spent over 40 hours writing new sustainable stories, refining our training module and recording and editing video content to bring you an updated online course.
[00:01:58] The simple yet powerful free tool will help you tell your own personal sustainable message. Go to the show notes, click on the title. Tell your sustainable story to sign up and start writing yours today.
241: The Biochar Handbook – How to Make it and Use it in Your Vineyard
Episode 241
Thursday, August 15, 2024 • Duration 29:40
For thousands of years, wildfires have produced a byproduct known to improve soil and plant health - biochar. Today, researchers like Kelpie Wilson of Wilson Biochar Associates, Consulting and Manufacturing are learning how to use this form of charcoal for carbon sequestration. Kelpie explains the different stages of combustion, what types of material to include in your burn pile, incorporating biochar into compost, how to use biochar to amend alkaline or acetic soils, and an easy way to remove vineyard wires from your pile.
232: Data-Driven Irrigation | Bien Nacido Vineyard's Sustainable Story | Marketing Tip Monday
Episode 232
Monday, June 10, 2024 • Duration 03:14
“Food disconnect” is a term used to describe the average consumer’s lack of knowledge about where their food comes from and how it’s made. When it comes to wine, most consumers only see the finished product in the grocery store or tasting room!
Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values.
While everyday agricultural practices may feel ordinary to you, these topics are fascinating to the average consumer, who likely has little to no insight into the block to bottle process behind their glass of wine.
Describing specific practices and why they are important helps customers understand the time and care that went into producing their wine. Sharing your unique story welcomes them to take part in the good feelings that come from supporting a business that is doing better for the people and the planet.
People care about social and environmental issues, and want to support brands that share their values and do something about it.
This week’s Marketing Tip tells the inspiring Sustainable Story of how Bien Nacido Vineyards’ irrigation team demonstrates diligent Water Management through the use of technology and a growth mindset.
Data-Driven Irrigation
Water is a valuable resource for all forms of life. But it is limited and must be used responsibly.
Bien Nacido Vineyards’ team of experienced irrigators, led by Miguel Asuncion, take several steps to ensure efficient water use.
To avoid system malfunction and uneven hydration, vineyard stewards must constantly maintain their systems. Bien Nacido’s team performs to keep them clear of dirt and debris, and to ensure consistent hydration across their diverse terrains and elevations.
Tell Your Sustainable Story Resources: Vineyard Team Programs:
143: Can Barrier Sprays Protect Against Smoke Taint in Wine?
Episode 143
Thursday, August 4, 2022 • Duration 39:26
“When smoke impact in the vineyard is great enough to impact the fruit and causes inferior wine, then we start calling it smoke taint.” explains Anita Oberholster, Professor Cooperative Extension Enology in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at the University of California, Davis.
During a wildfire event, the lignin in vegetation is broken down, releasing volatile phenols. While there are naturally occurring phenols in grapes, this release causes an excess which can impact the final product. Some tainted wines smell like camp fire, smoky, BBQ, and even bacon. New research shows there is an aftertaste, an aroma you perceive in the back of your throat, that creates that ash tray character.
Fruity aromas natural to some varieties can mask smoky aromas quite well. While green aromas like green pepper bring out the undesirable smoky traits. Some varieties may stand up to smoke taint better than others but there has not been a definitive research project on this yet due to the complexity of the testing process.
Barrier spray research is still in its infancy. Early testing shows that barrier sprays need to be used preventatively. One trial showed a slight impact that could make a positive difference in a light smoke taint situation. The additional challenge with sprays is that they need to be washed off which uses a lot of water.
142: Partner with an Influencer | Marketing Tip Monday
Episode 142
Monday, July 25, 2022 • Duration 05:01
Have you worked with a social media influencer? While the concept of working with influencers may sound intimidating to some, we can assure you that with clear goals and succinct calls to action, the process is super rewarding and for direct to consumer sales can be very lucrative.
Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. Today we are taking about social media influencers.
As we've discussed in previous Marketing Tips, partnering with social media influencers is a great way to reach groups of people who may be unaware of your brand, and specifically, partnering with a "wine influencer" will ensure that your brand is being shared with consumers who are passionate about wine and wine culture.
In an effort to broaden brand awareness for SIP Certified, we engaged social media influencers in Q1 and Q2 of 2022. These campaigns were an incredible way to educate consumers about the benefits of purchasing SIP Certified wines and helped distill the messaging of sustainability down to digestible language via influencers.
Creating a budget, establishing goals, brand parameters, and tracking engagement are the key elements in an influencer campaign. Any reputable influencer will have a rate sheet complete with their prices for different types of posts as well as their average engagement rates and demographic reach. This is important for your brand as the reach should be successful and align with your existing or aspirational customer. Setting brand parameters is important so the influencer’s messaging is in line with your existing brand guidelines and feel.
Now, to really see how these partnerships have played out, I invite you to check out our show notes and use the link to our latest article called, Connecting with a Broader Audience.
Here you can see the recipes created by the equally talented and funny Jerry James Stone. This year, Jerry is pairing SIP Certified brands with fresh and simple eats that you are going to want to try for yourself. Check out and .
Tag us, and use the SIP Certified GIPHYs! References:
141: Financial Aid to Replant Red Blotch Infected Vines
Episode 141
Thursday, July 21, 2022 • Duration 25:27
Did you know that the Farm Service Agency offers financial assistance to remove and replant vines infected with Red Blotch? Jeff Sledd, County Executive Director at the San Luis Obispo County Farm Service Agency explains how the Tree Assistance Program (TAP) offers commercial farmers aid with multiple qualifying disasters including natural occurrences like freezing or floods, and diseases including Pierces Disease and Red Blotch.
The Farm Service Agency is a national program with county-level agencies for assistance. It is important for farmers to connect with their local agency to remain aware of current relief programs and to request funding for new issues.
Make sure to listen to the end. If you received an insurance payment in 2020, 2021, or 2022 for COVID or drought, you may be eligible for the Emergency Relief Program.
Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.
140: Does social media impact wine sales? | Marketing Tip Monday
Episode 140
Monday, July 11, 2022 • Duration 05:03
Thach and Lease asked the managers of 375 United States wineries, "How much impact do you believe your social media efforts have on wine sales?" 87% of respondents said they believe that their social media presence increases sales.
Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. Today we are asking the question, Does social media impact wine sales?
Social media has changed the way consumers and businesses interact. It not only provides convenient two-way communication between consumers and the products and services they support, but it has opened the door for consumers to participate in the marketing and messaging of brands by creating their own content about the products they love and sharing it with their friends, family, and communities.
A 2018 study looking at the social media adoption and activities of 1173 wineries in Germany, the USA, New Zealand and Australia, suggests that "wineries need to develop a clear purpose for using social media and then adapt to the needs of the consumers in their respective markets." To do so, it is important to understand how consumers interact with wine brands on social media and what kind of content they are looking for.
Provide Value by Offering Guidance
Wine is complex. Many consumers who are new to drinking wine don't know what they're looking for, and could easily find themselves overwhelmed and intimated by the numerous varieties, tasting notes, and wine brands on the market. Creating educational and informative wine content can help to create trust between consumers and your brand.
Here are a few ideas to get you started: Interact With Consumers Collaborate with an Influencer Tag us, and use the SIP Certified GIPHYs! References:
139: Vineyard Irrigation Scheduling
Episode 139
Thursday, July 7, 2022 • Duration 35:39
What is the most important factor in vineyard irrigation scheduling? Organization. Having defined company goals and someone in charge of holding the team accountable. Tom Shapland, Co-founder and CEO of Tule Technologies and Lucas Pope, Director of Operations at Coastal Vineyard Services share their top challenges and strategies to apply the right amount of water at the right time. Incorporating tools like soil moisture sensors, plant-based monitoring, weather data, and soil types helps farmers know how much water is reserved in the soil so they can irrigate efficiently without applying more than the soil can handle.
138: 5 Tips for Your Wine Brand's Social Media | Marketing Tip Monday
Episode 138
Monday, June 27, 2022 • Duration 04:39
137: The Pierce's Disease and Glassy-winged Sharpshooter Board
Episode 137
Thursday, June 16, 2022 • Duration 22:58
Invasive pests and diseases are a challenge for all grape growers. Research is vital to develop new strategies and solutions. The Pierce’s Disease/Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board was established nearly two decades ago to allocate funding to the most promising research projects. Kristin Lowe, Research Coordinator at the Pierce's Disease and Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board and President of Vine Balance Consulting shares how projects are funded through a rigorous scientific review and screening panel. Also, learn about some of the most exciting projects including “pathogen confusion” to control Pierce’s Disease from Dr. Steve Lindow and a gene editing technology for grapevines using plant protoplasts Dr David Tricoli.
Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.
[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: For thousands of years, wildfires have produced a by-product known to improve soil and plant health. This is known as bio char. Welcome to sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth organic executive director. And since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business.
Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. He speaks with Kelpie Wilson of Wilson, biochar associates consulting in manufacturing.
Kelpie explains the different stages of combustion.
What types of material to include in your burn pile? Incorporating bio char into compost. How to use bio char to amend alkaline or acidic soils and an easy way to remove vineyard wires from your pile.
If you love this topic, then you won't want to miss Josiah Hunt's presentation. Practical applications of pyrogenic, organic material, AKA biochar in vineyards. He shares his expertise at the sustainable ag expo taking place November 12th or 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. joy, the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts.
Earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. As a listener to this show, you can take $50 off of your ticket when you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today@sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in.
[00:02:00] Craig Macmillan: Our guest, today is Kelpie Wilson. She's the owner of Wilson Biochar Associates, consulting and manufacturing. And as you may have guessed today, we're going to talk about biochar. Welcome to the podcast, Kelpie.
[00:02:08] Kelpie Wilson: Thanks. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:11] Craig Macmillan: What exactly is biochar?
[00:02:13] Kelpie Wilson: Biochar is just charcoal, but it's special charcoal that, uh, you can use in soil or for purposes of carbon sequestration. That's the official definition from the International Biochar Initiative.
[00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: And what does biochar do for us in the vineyard?
[00:02:30] Kelpie Wilson: Well, it sequesters carbon, so it's a very stable form of carbon. Uh, Carbon comes in a lot of different forms. I mean, we're all made of carbon, and, you know, carbon can be a diamond, which is really stable, or it can be in a sugar, which, uh, you um, oxidized into CO2 pretty quickly. So uh, in is very, in a very stable form um, it's called aromatic carbon, so it's fused carbon rings.
which are the basis of all organic chemistry. biochar is. It's carbon. The thing about biochar and charcoal is that charcoal can have, you know, widely ranging different properties depending on how you make it and what it's made from. And I should add also that uh, in the definition of biochar, For use in soil or for use in carbon sequestration, it needs to be made from organic you know, that is clean.
So there are some environmental kind of limits around it that ensure that it's, it's really contributing to the carbon cycle in a positive way and that we're not making Materials that have, you know, toxics in them that could hurt soil.
[00:03:41] Craig Macmillan: So we're introducing carbon in a fairly stable people have told me that the carbon that you put into the soil in the form of biochar could be there for thousands of years, but it's obviously available somehow, or it's involved in the soil microbiome somehow, or it's involved in nutrient cycling somehow.
What are some of the properties that contribute to that soil health component,
[00:04:00] Kelpie Wilson: Well, There's there's quite a few. The interesting thing about biochar is that it's naturally present in soils in many, many parts of the world because of fire, from vegetation fires, forest fires, it's it's supposed to be there in many cases. Uh, Especially here in the, in the in the west coast where we uh, natural fire regime in the forest.
And if you look at the most productive soils in the world, for instance, the mollisols in Iowa or the um, in the Eurasian steppe, they have large amounts of biochar Um, In the case of the steppes and the plains, that's because of prairie fires. So you have these tall, tall grasses that would periodically burn off very regularly, like every 10 years or so, and the top would burn off in a flame, and that heat would radiate you know, kind of just above the root zone, the grasses are bunched up really thick, and some air is excluded, so they wouldn't burn all the way to ash, but the heat would turn it to char, the flame would move on, and you'd be left with char, and so this char builds up over years and centuries, and, you know, hundreds of centuries to make this a very black soil and then there are other places around the world historically going back thousands of years where it was deliberately to add to soil.
So those are the terra preta soils in the Amazon naturally normally didn't have a lot of fires. And look, also can look at charcoal middens around ancient villages and even city states where people would dump their manure and their, you know, their hue manure, their night soil, and they would always deodorize it with charcoal and ash, and you find very fertile black soils in those places.
So, it's not a new thing um, but we just kind of recently rediscovered So, as far as what it does in soil, you know, it doesn't break down. Like, you know, you asked, well, then how does it feed the It it sets the table. So It's the stable carbon with these fused carbon rings. It doesn't break down easily.
And we'll also have the mineral ash. from the vegetation that burned. And so that's food. And then it also needs the carbs and the protein. So, and that comes from all the fertilizer that you add to it. So it basically sets the table for soil life because microbes like to sit down when they
eat. And so you have all these little surfaces.
In the charcoal, it's very, very porous. You know, think of activated carbon. People know that activated carbon is used for filtration. It's got all these pores. And so, in that way, it's kind of like a sponge. It can hold air and soil, which is beneficial. But also, there's the surface area. So, each of those tiny pores has a surface around it.
And when you add up all the surface area, and this is kind of mind boggling, It's But you take a teaspoon of, of or, you know, that's got a lot of surface area or an activated carbon and it can have a football field's worth of surface area all inside It's, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing to think about, but all those surfaces are where the microbes can sit down and attach themselves.
And if we, if we have added fertilizer as well, there are nutrients and water. Attached to those surfaces by electrostatic attraction. So the microbes just can hang out there and, and it's all there for them. So that's how biochar promotes um, the soil food web by, uh, promoting the microbes. And then the their mycelia in there to, you know, get it's a foundation of good soil.
[00:07:42] Craig Macmillan: And you were talking about the fertilizer part. Is that one of the reasons why it's a good idea or a common practice to mix biochar with compost and spread it in that form?
[00:07:50] Kelpie Wilson: Yes, but I would not just mix it with compost if I have any choice at all. I would put it in the beginning of the composting That's where you're going to get the most benefit know, it just takes time for all these things to come And so If you start it from the beginning, not only do you get the nutrients and the biology in there right you're um, having um, beneficial impact on your composting So, You'll have fewer greenhouse gas uh, the compost will get hotter quicker uh, and you know, the char will absorb any kind of nasty stuff that's in there, reduce odors, etc. it's really, The thing about biochar and to make it really work for you in a, in a farm um, is to get every, Benefit you can out of it.
And there's a whole cascade of benefits that come with biochar.
[00:08:40] Craig Macmillan: we can talk about that some more, but let's get to some practical things. Let's say I'm interested in this. I've been hearing about it. I'm excited about it. I want to try this out. How can I make some high quality biochar with the least amount of emissions and the highest biochar production on my farm?
[00:08:57] Kelpie Wilson: Great So I've been working on this for quite a while. When I first heard about biochar, it was, I think, 2007, and it was the terra preta soils that we were all hearing about. I immediately got involved in it. I went to work for the International Biochar you know, was in close touch with people all around the world.
that we're trying to find ways to start making and using biochar, and a lot of the first people to actually do it were people who uh, you know, making little cook stoves or just making biochar in burn piles, and I saw that myself because I live in the woods here in Oregon, and I'd go out to where they did burn piles to, you know, We had a lot of extra vegetation that had to be thinned to protect from wildfire.
And I'd go to these burn piles and I'd find little chunks of charcoal left in them. And so we started making, doing experiments to see if we could optimize that. And we figured out make, take a burn pile and light it from the top. So it burned from the top down, and that would burn up a lot of the smoke so it was cleaner, and also leave us with a little pile of glowing coals at the end.
And anybody who's made a campfire has seen this. You have that pile of glowing coals, and if you just walk away and leave it, it'll all go to ash. But if you just simply put it out with water, hey, you've got biochar. So that's the way to start, and you can can do it in your a, with a kettle grill.
You know, just a little container that will improve the biochar recovery because if you cut off the air that comes in from and the sides of your you, you will just burn less of it to And again, you just put it out with water. So then I started making containers to improve the efficiency.
compared to making biochar in an open burn pile, if you put it in a container, You can make three or four times as much so, I've been working with little containers ever those, We call those flame cap kilns. Because the idea of how they work is you put your, make your burn pile in a container.
It's cutting off air from the bottom and the sides. So all the air comes from the And as it burns down, you keep adding more. And every time you add more material, it flames up. And the char that you've already formed on the bottom is protected from air by the container. And it's protected from air from the top because all the air that comes in is used in the flame of the currently burning material.
And so what you've already made is, is protected from oxygen. So you can build up a huge pile of char in a container, and you're only limited by the size of your container, really.
[00:11:34] Craig Macmillan: So the practice is put your feedstock in a container something that cuts off the bottom the sides from the air Light it from the top with kindling or something I would assume something lighter weight and then as that process goes and you can see the material come back Well, is it truly combustion if there's not a lot of oxygen?
[00:11:51] Kelpie Wilson: Well, uh, I call it combustus interruptus. So basically it is combustion, but combustion happens in stages. Okay. myths combustion. One is um, wood wood burns, wood does not burn. Wood gas burns in a And you can see this if you look at your charcoal grill, you see, there's not a flame.
Because the gas has already been mostly, you know, burned out of it. And so it just glows. So there's different stages of combustion. The first one is dehydration. When you heat a stick of um, water's going to come off of it, because water doesn't burn. And then the gases come out, and those are, methane, carbon burnable, burnable gases, and those make the flame.
And then when the flame goes out, you know, you just, that glowing coal stage. So it's, it's really staged combustion, and you're just interrupting and saving the char.
[00:12:49] Craig Macmillan: If I understand you correctly by putting more material on the top I'm continuing that process. The stuff on this top is heating up. You're getting that, flame cap. So you described it. And I can just keep layering on until my container's full. Basically.
[00:13:04] Kelpie Wilson: Yep, that's how we do
[00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: I want to come back to the kiln idea, but first, what are the, what are good feedstocks to make biochar from? What are feedstocks that are not good for making biochar? Right. Right.
Uh
[00:13:19] Kelpie Wilson: Good feedstocks are dry.
You don't want a lot of wet stuff, because you use a lot of energy burning the wet. , Good feedstocks are also appropriately sized. So grapevines, for instance, are good because they're not really big. Even the trunk of a vine is not really big. And so if you try to put a big log in your container on your fire, you use so much energy to get the heat into the center of the log.
So it's a progressive thing, right? You're charring the outside, and the heat's moving in, it's charring and charring and charring. But meanwhile, the outside of your char is starting to burn to ash. So it's not very efficient to try and char a big log. The kind of limit depends a lot on the fuel moisture.
In Utah, we're We have really dry wood. People are putting six and eight inch diameter logs in a kiln and doing fine. In Oregon, I kind of keep it to four inches, usually. But you know, we could do bigger stuff. It's just not quite as efficient. So dry less than 25 percent moisture is ideal. We can do wetter stuff, and we often do because we're here in the middle of winter trying to get burn piles taken care of. So we go ahead and do it, and there's some techniques for optimizing how you do that, how you load it. But dry, less than 25%. and not too big, but also not too small. I've really tried hard to biochar hemp stalks, for instance, which are abundant around here, and they're just a little too small.
if they're dry, they do pretty well, but you have to really make sure you don't pack them in too tightly because, small, small things like straw, and crop waste like that, they will pack and cut off the airflow and you'll get smoke.
[00:15:07] Craig Macmillan: Oh,
okay.
[00:15:08] Kelpie Wilson: That's the main issue is you get smoke.
And then as far as what species, the main difference between different species of wood, for instance, is density.
And because we're making biochar in a flame, we're making it at a very high temperature. So it's, as long as we're not smoldering it, As long as we have the flame present, we know we're making it at a high enough temperature to burn out most of the volatiles. Know, some species like eucalyptus or walnut might have chemicals in them that are allelopathic, I think is the term.
And if you add a lot of that to soil, you could have problems. But as long as we're making it at high temperature, we burn most of that out.
[00:15:50] Craig Macmillan: Got it. So we want things that are dry. We want things that are woody, that are relatively high in concentration. Things like grasses are probably not going to work as well or work terribly well. It sounds like you want chunks basically, you know, something about the size of your forearm or a little bit bigger chunk would be a really
great, size.
[00:16:09] Kelpie Wilson: that's a great way to look at it. I like the physical measurements. You know, I was telling woofers here the other day about how to, make biochar compost. And so we're doing it in layers. And I just said, think about Parmesan cheese. When you add the biochar, if you really like Parmesan on your pizza, just add the biochar like that.
So those kinds of physical measurements are really helpful for people when they're learning how to use biochar.
[00:16:33] Craig Macmillan: and returning to that topic you recommend putting biochar in your composting windrows at the beginning as part of the whole process.
[00:16:41] Kelpie Wilson: Yes.
The very beginning when I think about a vineyard, especially one where you're actually making the wine know, you're pressing the grapes and you have the is it called
pomace? I think the grape skins that's easily degradable stuff. It's hard to, compost just on its own because it doesn't have much carbon, but if you add biochar to that, you can make a beautiful compost.
And then great for reducing on farm inputs. contributing to the circular economy. And that's always how I recommend people use biochar if possible, is find whatever other organic waste streams are there, whether it's grass clippings, grape pomace, leaves, anything else, manure that you might have, mix it right in there.
[00:17:27] Craig Macmillan: Makes tons of sense. Okay. Let's get down to the nitty gritty here. We've touched on kilns as a way of getting the highest production. Tell me about the Ring of Fire Kiln system the concept in general. And then what might, what might be a biochar production day like?
[00:17:42] Kelpie Wilson: The Ring of Fire kiln is my latest, greatest design. Just bin kilns, but they were heavy. So They were, weighing a lot, and you had to, move them around, and very hard for one person. So I came up with this modular design of panels. And so you can hook them together.
They're four feet long and 40 inches tall, and they have a bracket that hooks them all together, and you can make a kiln any size you want. with that. I mean, not too big, but usually we make kilns that are between six feet and 12 feet in diameter. And so that can accommodate the piles you already have, for instance.
And then the other innovation with that kiln is it has a heat shield. And that's really important for two reasons. One is it holds more heat in the kiln so you get more production. It's more efficient. But the other one is that it protects the worker. Because when you are around a giant , flaming pile, you know, you can really get fried just from the radiant heat.
You know, you're not burning up, but you, the radiant heat, I would come away from some of my sessions with very red skin and very dehydrated. And so we really think a lot about the workers who are doing this. Because it's mostly hand labor, although we can also load the bigger kilns with, machinery. that's the Ring of Fire Kiln. It's also very, very clean, and there's a gap between the heat shield and the inner ring that allows, um, air to come through, and then so you have preheated air that's going in from the top into the kiln. And that also helps a lot with, uh, Reducing the smoke. And I have lots of pictures and videos showing the smoke being sucked into the kiln from the top.
It's really cool to see these loops of smoke kind of coming up and then being sucked back down into the kiln. Those are the advantages of the ring of fire kiln in addition to the fact that it's modular. One person can take it apart and move it one panel at a time. The panels only weigh less than 40 pounds and set it up somewhere else.
That's, that's the other advantage of the ring of fire kiln. So a typical workday, and I'm going to quote some numbers from my colleague Eric Meyer, who has Napa char, and he's done some incredible work in vineyards in the last couple years. Here's what he says He can make up to 12 cubic yards of biochar per kiln per day, which is two bone dry tons.
And that is equivalent to two to three acres of pulled mines. he'll do this usually with one helper. Sometimes he'll have a, a mini excavator that he uses to load it, but a lot of times he's just doing it, you know, as hand labor. And so that's a ;lot of biochar, two tons of biochar in one day. He'll start by arriving at the site, setting up his kiln, and then just hand loading the biochar initially, fill it full, light it on top.
There's a little break where you let it burn down till you start seeing glowing coals at the bottom and, some ash on the top. And then you just load it one layer at a time. And the loading rate is really critical. If you overload, you get smoke and you'll end up maybe even with unburned pieces in the bottom because the flame moves up in the kiln as you add more material and the bottom starts cooling off.
You don't want to leave any big pieces at the bottom. We load small pieces initially. And if you have bigger pieces, you would load them kind of toward the end or in the middle. And then when it's all full of biochar, or you're just done for the day because you're tired, you get some water out and you spray the kiln down with water just to cool it.
Then you open up the panels, and rake it out, and you spray it with water and rake it at the same time. So you end up with a big, big patch of biochar on the ground.
[00:21:29] Craig Macmillan: Perfect. Then you take that to your composting spot and away you go. .
[00:21:32] Kelpie Wilson: another piece about making biochar from vineyards, especially vineyard removals, is that a lot of times there's wire, trellis wire, in it. And you could have a big pile and you could build a kiln around the pile because you're not untangling that pile, right, with all the wire in it.
And then at the end, uh, you know, you pick the wire out of the char. You can use a magnet.
[00:21:52] Craig Macmillan: That's cool. What are some things that we should be concerned about not doing? If we are newbies to biochar production.
[00:22:00] Kelpie Wilson: Yeah, that's a really good question too. So, you need to know a little bit about your biochar. If you have a lot of ash in it, it can be alkaline. So if you have an alkaline soil, and you have alkaline biochar, you need to think about how you're going to apply it and maybe, usually composting will take care of any pH issue.
If you have an acidic soil, you might want to just add it directly. You know, take the most advantage you can get of that liming ability. You also don't want to add too much at one time, especially without composting it first, because it can, , lock up nutrients for a short time. Most likely you're not gonna have too much biochar for a, for a big field. Um, It's great to be able to do it a little bit every year. That's the best way to incorporate it.
[00:22:47] Craig Macmillan: Oh, and that's another question. I've seen different strategies here. Some folks believe that it has to be incorporated into the soil. Other folks say, no, that's good, but you can go ahead and spread it at the surface and you'll still get some benefits. Is that true?
[00:22:58] Kelpie Wilson: Well, it's going to depend a lot on what you're trying to grow. So the vineyard trials that I've seen using biochar, a lot of times they're putting it in at planting and they're putting it in deep in the root zone. That seems like a good idea to me. One thing I'll say is when I look at the literature, I read a lot of the biochar research literature.
There's some really interesting new material out about replant disease. So if you're replanting in a vineyard, you know, in an old vineyard, new vines. The soil can harbor pathogens that the older vines were able to resist, but the new vines have a hard time with. And biochar has a lot of benefits for disease resistance, just because it promotes a lot of microbial diversity, so you don't get the dominance with some of the pathogenic fungi and other organisms.
So, you know, adding it, deep You know, when you're doing the replanting, replacing a vineyard is probably the most beneficial way, to add biochar. But if you already have a vineyard and you're using cover cropping, for instance, it'll go really well with a legume cover crop like clover and you don't even need to compost it because clover and legumes fix their own nitrogen and And biochar is especially wonderful with legume crops because it promotes the nitrogen fixing bacteria. If I just had a couple bags of biochar and I wanted to use it right away, and I was, planting a cover crop, I'd just use it in the cover crop. I think vines are like any other plant, where they have roots that come up close to the surface, they can get benefit from surface applied biochar as well.
[00:24:39] Craig Macmillan: So if I'm following this idea, so from a cover cropping standpoint, what am I going to do is broadcast it and then plant my cover crop. That'd be one way of building the health of the whole floor, which is a really good idea. What about banding? It's very popular to band compost right into the vine row.
If I have compost that's got biochar in it, will I get those benefits as well?
[00:24:59] Kelpie Wilson: I would totally think so. The other thing about biochar is that it holds water. So, you know, in, droughty areas that would be helpful to,
[00:25:08] Craig Macmillan: If there was one thing, just one piece of advice that you had for folks, Who are interested in starting to produce biochar and use biochar. Let's talk about it one for production and one thing for use. What would that be? What would that two part advice be?
[00:25:25] Kelpie Wilson: first of all, uh, get one of my ring of fire biochar kilns. It's a, you know, it's really economic. And second of all, buy my book, the biochar handbook, because I have all kinds of information in there about composting, you know, different ways to culture biochar, build soil. Well, you know, so sorry to be so nakedly promotional there, but
[00:25:50] Craig Macmillan: Well, you know, you're directing, you're directing people towards resources,
[00:25:53] Kelpie Wilson: right.
[00:25:53] Craig Macmillan: Anything else?
[00:25:54] Kelpie Wilson: Oh, well, I'll send you some other resources, too, that you don't have to buy the book. Check out the U. S. Biotar Initiative website. There's a Biotar Learning Center there and USBI has collected a lot of resources there. fact sheets, their seminars, webinars. There is a lot of biochar information out there.
And I will say I've watched a few YouTube videos that are just. Make me cringe it is so easy to experiment with it yourself, which is great. It's really great that people experiment with it. And I think, feel free, you know, do your own experiments. , there's some not so great information out there that, you might want to just do your own work and look at the more authoritative sources like that the USBI before you take what a YouTuber says as, as gospel about biochar.
So I guess my one advice really on both, topics of production and application is just jump in and try it. It's so easy. You know, make it, make a bonfire in your backyard or, any kind of little container. You could dig a little shallow pit in the ground and, just make some biochar, then you've got some.
Now do some, greenhouse trials. You know, see how it interacts with your soil because every soil is different. And so, check the pH, add it to, you know, your soil, and, grow a seedling. it's very easy to do some experiments. I actually have, in my book, a whole procedure for how to do a, scientifically valid experiment. Uh, Pot trial in the greenhouse, so you can really, step by step, you can really look and see how it compares with other amendments, try it in your compost pile, use a compost thermometer, it's not straightforward how to use it in compost, because again, compost like soil, it's going to have a lot of different kinds of ingredients, biochar does really interesting things, in compost, so.
Just try it.
[00:27:46] Craig Macmillan: Just try it. Like that's great advice. Our guest today has been Kelpie Wilson. She's the owner of Wilson Biochar Associates Consulting and Manufacturing. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been some really great practical, actionable information, which is what we like to bring our listeners.
As Kelpie mentioned, we're going to have a lot of links to things and resources and whatnot on the show notes. So be sure to travel to that page. I'm finding that this is a growing topic of interest, but I'm finding that there's more and more folks that are trying it, and we're all very excited for what the potential might be.
[00:28:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by San agro. WestBridge is now San aggro. When the opportunity came to expand their reach and improve their customer's bottom line, they took it. San Agros commitment to deliver science-based solutions for sustainable crop health and nutrition remains the same.
They offer a full line of plant nutrients, bio pesticides, and specialty inputs. Visit San agro.com to learn more.
Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Kelpie her new book, the bio char handbook, a practical guide to making and using bioactivated charcoal loads, more links to bio char plus sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes. 56 conservation burning and bio char. 1 0 6, what? Barry charcoal and the vineyard. 1 67. Used bio char to combat climate change and two 15 bio char production on a commercial scale. If you'd liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend. Subscribing and leaving us a review.
You can find all of the podcasts on vineyard team.org/podcast. And you can reach us@podcastatvineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.
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And with me today is Dr. Anita Oberholster . She is Professor of Cooperative Extension, enology in the department of Viticulture and Enology, UC Davis. And today we're gonna talk about smoke taint. Welcome to the show.
Anita Oberholster 0:11
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Craig Macmillan 0:13
This is a problem that has gotten a lot of attention in the last few years in California, I think a lot of us was surprised to find out it's been a topic of conversation in Australia for much longer than that. And yet, we still have a lot of questions. And we still don't have a lot of answers. But we're making progress. We're learning more about this. So first off, can you define what smoke taint is?
Anita Oberholster 0:35
Sure. So the first thing I would want to say is that, you know, when a vineyard is exposed to smoke, we talk about smoke impact, this potential smoke impact. Smoke taint is actually a sensory term. So that is when you have something that causes a decrease in quality or fault in the wine, then we start calling it taint. So when smoke impact in the vineyard is great enough that it impacts the fruit in such a way that it makes wine that is inferior and has a fault, then it is smoke taint. So smoke impact in grapes causes potentially smoked taint in wine. That clear?
Craig Macmillan 1:16
Absolutely. So there would be smoke impact then, as a standalone, what would be smoke impact?
Anita Oberholster 1:21
Okay, so smoke impact would be that there was fresh enough smoke that the grapevines were exposed to that the grapes absorb some of the volatile phenols coming from the smoke, so that it's more than normal. So smoke impact would be there were some absorption that took place. So grape composition is not totally what it was before smoke exposure, that would be smoke impact.
Craig Macmillan 1:47
And then smoke taint is what happens when you turn it into wine. The aromas that you get from that?
Anita Oberholster 1:51
Yes, and if the smoke impact was enough, because if you only have a little bit of absorption, that may still be a result in a wine that has no problems, right. So the smoke impact has to be at a certain significant level before we see a problem in the wines. So it's very important to know just a little bit of absorption do not always equal a problem in the winery.
Craig Macmillan 2:16
What kinds of aromas in terms of like descriptors and also then what kind of compounds, their aromas are compounds, what kind of compounds are we talking about?
Anita Oberholster 2:27
Okay, so I'm gonna get a little bit scientific.
Craig Macmillan 2:29
Do it please.
Anita Oberholster 2:30
So if you think of smoke, right, if we think a wildfire smoke, you have a lot of vegetation burning . So 15 to 25% of wood is lignin now lignin is what give celery its crunch, okay, so it's what it's the fiber you food. It's what gives wood its structure, its hardiness. When lignin burns, it actually release a lot of compounds. When it breaks down, we call thermal degradation. It releases a lot of compounds that we call volatile phenols. It's a whole range of compounds. And these compounds are naturally present in grapes. So that is something to remember, naturally, in different grape varieties in different regions would have natural, a certain amount. Now you have an excess amount in the air that can absorb onto those grapes because grapes are little little sponges, that absorbs the extra volatile phenols. Now if you have an excessive amount of volatile phenols, then it can result in wines with off flavors. Now what we talk about here is on the nose, you can get very campfire, smoky, BBQ, bacon, medicinal and the list goes on, aromas, but what for me is very distinctive, I call smoke taint, we call it a ritrum nasal character, or people talk about an aftertaste, it's actually an aroma you perceive in the back of your throat because what happens when these volatile phenols absorbed onto grapes, part of their defense mechanism is they attach sugars to it so as soon as you add sugars to it, this moment of fear now there was a really small compounds that's volatile and you can smell becomes non volatile because it is now larger in weight. But when you make wines both the free and without, so both of those with sugars on and those who have no sugars on, gets released into the wine. That rates your changes within the enzamatic activity, the pH of wine. And when you taste a wine, you have enzymes in your saliva that can actually release that bound. And we think it's that action that gives you that ashy character in the back of your throat. So it's a ritual nasal character because the back of your nose is connected to your throat as we all know when you have a cold and basically that release makes you perceive it and it's like an ashtray character if you can imagine an old campfire in the morning but that smells like if you licked that what that would taste like or if you smoking you have the old ashes there. I mean, I used to as a kid, my dad used to smoke a pipe, put the old coal pipe in your mouth and suck on it, that kind of taste. So obviously, that's very awful. So that would not be something that will increase the quality of your wine. So that for me is smoke taint. I have to caution that if you smell like, you know, smoke or something in wine, and only that, that doesn't always mean smoke taint. And there's other things that can happen in the wine that could also give you those characters. And you know, even barrel aging, some barrels can give you smoky character. So I want to caution people not to smell smoke and go oh, this is what tainted. Really focus on is there that aftertaste character that ritrum nasal, ashy character that's really distinctive.
Craig Macmillan 5:48
Are there particular compounds that are kind of hallmarks that either are the most commonly found in wines that are identified as having ssmoke taint from a descriptor standpoint. Or ones that just tend to travel with those descriptors, even if they're not the compound itself? You know, what I'm talking about, like a proxy? What are those? And where did it come from?
Anita Oberholster 6:05
Yeah, so we do have, you know, and we can thank our Australian researchers for that, because they've been working on this for much longer. And they have found about seven key volatile phenols, I can list them guaiacol, 4-methylguaiacol, syringol, 4-methylsyringol, p-cresol, o-cresol and m-cresol. they have identified six individual bound compounds that also correlate with smoke. So they've actually isolated them looked at them showed that they correlate with smoky characters, and the distinctive smoke taint character in wine. However, research continues. Even analyzing all those compounds, does not give you 100% predictive power, it's only about 70%. So we do think that there are more compounds that we need to keep on looking for. And that's something we're actively researching, but also the matrix. So the matrix is everything but what you're talking about. So for wine, it would be everything but the volatile phenols. We know that how much phenolic or color, polysaccharides, proteins, alcohol, sugar is in that wine, all of that influence the perception of smoke. So that can also be why the predictive power isn't that great. It could be everything else, not just the mark compounds. For instance, we know like fruity aromas can mask the smokiness quite well. But green characters like you know, the green pepper character or grassy characters, they actually uplift, smokiness, that's from research coming from South Africa. Very complex, everything in the wine influences something else.
Craig Macmillan 7:41
You know, that actually just remind me of another another question. Do we know? Are there certain varieties that seem to be much more prone to either suffering from smoke impact or if they do suffer from smoke impact, having being identified as having smoke taint later on down the line?
Anita Oberholster 7:57
Yes, you know, it's it's difficult. We really need more data. We we know, a variety like Pinot Noir, for instance, seems to be pretty prone to showing smoke. But is that because they absorb more? Is it something to do with the skin structure? Or is it just because they many times make wines where most simpler matrix is then, for instance, a full bodied Cabernet Sauvignon? And it's really difficult to know, we know that, for instance, Syrah naturally have very high levels of volatile phenols and can handle additional volatile phenols come from smoke quite well. That doesn't mean you can't get smoke impacted Syrahs. I've seen them. But so Syrah seems to be more robust. It seems to ask you know, Pinot Noir definitely more sensitive, say then Cabernet Sauvignon. Cabernet, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Petit Verdot. I think the Petite Verdot perhaps a little bit more sensitive to the Cabernet Sauvignon but this is more based on anecdotal experience, rather than having enough research data to really piece it out. For us to really determine this, we would have to intentionally smoke different varieties so that they actually at the same ripeness point gets exposed to exactly the same volatile phenol compositions and smoke composition, and then evaluate them. As you can imagine, that's not easy to do.
Craig Macmillan 9:20
No, it's not. Maybe I'm misremembering this, but I think I read an article where researchers were tenting rows of vines, and then building fires at one end and then blowing the smoke into the tent. And I was like, that's genius. But then in the, in the conclusions, right, the discussion, limitation, it's like, yes, but did we use the right wood? Is the intensity right? Is this over top, you know, you know, all these other variables and you're like, oh, God, you know, holy crap, what are we going to do? You know. And a lot of it's going to end up being what work that you guys are doing, which is just real in the field research when things happen, you just go study it as best you can. Yeah, you know, so it's gonna be a long time for us to figure a lot of these things out.
Anita Oberholster 10:03
Yeah, we do a combination of it. But it's not easy. We've done some intentional smoking last year. And you know, we built a tank, it was like 36 feet by seven feet by 10 feet to cover for vines in our Vineyard. Just to test barior sprays, right. And then to figure out what to burn, we had some natural ash that we analyze. So Tom Collins in Washington State University, he used to burn natural vegetation and gave up because to keep it consistently the same, to know that everything was exposed to exactly the same smoke. It's difficult. So we've moved to like using pellets, but then not all pellets give up the same depending on what what they're made of, and usually hard work. And what we usually burns here in California is soft wood. So yeah, it's tricky. We had to play around with a lot of different fires to figure out which source material we should be using for for our intentional smoking. And we will keep investigating, we're trying to mimic the real situation as much as possible, but it's not perfect.
Craig Macmillan 11:06
What is the window, or the progression of the windows for smoke impact on grapes when they're most vulnerable?
Anita Oberholster 11:13
Yeah, you know, unfortunately, I have to tell you, basically, from the moment you have a berry,. There was this research in Australia on Merlot vines where they actually intentionally spoke, expost ir to smoke over three seasons at different growth stages. And they did find in that study, the most sensitive was from verasion on onwards. So from sugar accumulation onwards, right, our color change onwards. However, we've had many instances of now our vineyards that were only exposed to smoke before veraion. At pea size even and still ended up making smoke impacted wines. So I want to caution I would say the risk gets higher from verasion onwards. But unfortunately, you're not safe if your smoke exposure was earlier.
Craig Macmillan 12:04
So it's an issue no matter what, basically.
Anita Oberholster 12:07
Yes, unfortunately.
Craig Macmillan 12:08
That's unfortunately, but also, that's good to know, that's really, really good to know, because I think we're thinking, oh, you know, it's a tiny berry and its all waxy and you know, it's not going to be an issue. And then, you know, four months later, three months later, suddenly, it's a problem.
Anita Oberholster 12:20
I also heard this rumor of my grapes are fine, because they were overripe with smoke exposure. Now, unfortunately, that does not work either. It will absorb smoke, even if it's very ripe. The enzyme activity within the berry do decrease somewhat. So there might be a difference in how much they actually attach sugars to it, or, like these volatile phenols. But they're still sensitive, you still have a risk, there's unfortunately no period that you don't have a risk if you have a berry on the vine.
Craig Macmillan 12:50
Got it. Oh, related. This reminds me of something. So the volatile phenols that we're talking about. These are compounds that are out in the air. They're part of smoking in quotes, but they're not ash. Ash is something's completely different, right?
Anita Oberholster 13:05
Yeah. So ash is carbon, mostly right? So what can happen and this is the confusing thing. When you have a fire ,volatile phenols are very small, you can't see them, right. So what you see is the debris or the particulate matter, volatile phenols on their own actually break down very quickly, they phyto oxidize in the air within hours. But now they can absorb on to particulate matter. So they can absorb onto the ash. And when they absorb onto the ash, we do not know how that impacts their degradation. So there's where the issue comes. So and this is why we say only when smoke is fresh, is there any kind of relation between particulate matter and risk of smoke exposure. The older that ash gets, the older that smoke gets, the less it contains volatile phenol, phenols. And the lower your risk of smoke impact, if that makes sense.
Craig Macmillan 14:02
I was just going to ask you about that. You've mentioned freshness in some of your other work. How fresh is fresh and how does it change over time? And is there any way I can sleep at night thinking that this has been out there for three days or whatever?
Anita Oberholster 14:14
Yeah, you know, it's difficult, So basically at the moment, fresh ash is defined as anything less than 24 hours old. Now that's based on anecdotal data. The Australians had a fire, all the smoke moved in a column over the ocean and came back as one big column over McLaren Vale. And it was more than 24 hours later, and McLaren Vale was fine, there was no impact. So that was all anecdotal, but my own observations really do confirm that. I'm not saying you have no risk if the smoke is older than 24 hours, but your risk definitely substantially decrease. The older that smoke gets. Because what happens the volatile phenols starts breaking down, even those absorbed onto particulate matter starts breaking down. So after you know two, three days eyes that smoke is particulate matter. It doesn't contain the compounds that can absorb onto the grapes and into the graves and cause a problem.
Craig Macmillan 15:10
We've talked about time, in fact about windkow. Let's pretend Craig's a grower, I was at once but I am not now. What can I do? What should I do? What should I not? Do I have any kind of agency in this process?
Anita Oberholster 15:21
I wish I could tell grapegrowers what to do. I have some cautionary tales. If I can put it that way. Please, please. So what I would say is currently, we do not recommend anything. We've looked at some berry sprays, things they can spray onto the berry to protect it against the volatile phenols in the air. We've tried kaolin or surround, you know, the claim. Yep, yep. And it has shown some efficacy. So if you want to spray that on, you can try it. But it's not a silver bullet. In laboratory conditions. This is now 100% coverage, I saw about a 30% decrease in the amount of volatile phenols absorbing from smoke. But now remember, in a vineyard setting, you're not going to get 100% coverage, you may get 30 to 40% coverage. But it's a fact where if you only have a little bit of smoke exposure, that every little bit of prevention could actually mean the difference so that you end up with grapes that's not impacted and make good wine. This is always going to be preventative. Growers might have heard of the study that you looked at Praka, and it showed really, really good efficacy. However, after that initial study, there's been two more studies that showed no efficacy, and some that actually showed it resulted in the absorption of more of volatile phenols. So I'm cautioning against using Praka. I've looked at EMP barrier, I've only done one study 100% coverage. So keep that in mind. And one of their compilations, jin3e showed something very similar to surround not better. But in a similar similar realm. Here's the problem with whatever you put on, you need to wash it off. At this stage, it seems the volatile phenols absorbs onto the barrier instead of absorbing onto the berry. However, if that barrier is still there, when you pick the grapes and make the wine, it dissolves from the barrier into your wine, so you're no better off, you still have to wash it off. And that's the problem because removing that clay from the berries, that's very difficult and will need a lot of water, which is my other problem with the solution. We are continually looking at other barrier sprays, if we can find something that potential you don't have to rinse off. Because that would obviously logistically and for many other reasons be a better option. There's something else I would like to say. Some of these studies looked at compounds I just mentioned, like Praka in some of the studies and actually made it worse. We are concerned a lot of applications use the stickers, many times it's oil to get the compact stick to the berry. If there's too much oil in whatever you are applying, it seems like it doesn't dry out. And if you have something wet on the outside of the barrier that increases the volume of the berry, or potentially is a liquid and the outside of which the volatile phenols can absorb and then absorb for concentrate in that liquid and then go into the berry. That may be why in some circumstances, some compounds are making it worse. Some berry sprays are making it worse. We saw people applying fungusicides and things like that that also made absorption worse. So currently, really if there's smoke in the air, and you do not have to apply something to your grapes, don't. We're really worried about applying anything while there's smoke in the air. If you want to apply something as a protection, the only things that showed some efficacy is basically surround or potentially some of these EMP various sprays you have to do it preventative, you need to do it before there's any smoke. So you're going to do this not knowing whether you actually need this protection or not. When the smoke is there, it's too late. Please do not apply anything to you grapes, your vines while there's smoke in the air. Wait until the smoke clears. If you do have to apply fungicides and other things. That's important. The other thing also there's been some studies looking at leaf removal or not leaf removal. Now the thing is the volatile phenols can also absorb onto leaves. And actually when you have a big canopy, that canopy can actually sort of protect your grapes because the volatile phenols is absorbing onto the leaves, not onto your grape bunches.
Craig Macmillan 19:40
We don't believe or we don't know at this point or we don't believe that those things aren't going to be transported from a mature lead back to the berries just like I'm transporting all these other precursors and amino acids and you know excetera?
Anita Oberholster 19:52
Yes, good question. So here's the thing. There's one study that looked at this and showed that translocation from the leaves to the grapevine bunches is possible. Now here's the problem, we think it's very limited, because we still see more advantage from having a canopy there than not having a canopy. So here's the thing. There's a study that looked at a big canopy that looked at leaf removal before smoke, and then looked at leaf removal after smoke. Now, having the big canopy resulted in grapes with the least impact from the smoke than those that had leaf removal before smoke, worst impact as you can think, because the berries were totally exposed. And then the leaf removal off the smoke did help with the smoke impact in the final wines. However, there's other studies that didn't see a great impact by doing leaf removal. And there's a risk with doing leaf removal. Because if you do leaf removal, and there's another fire, or more smoke than you might do just made it worse. And obviously we are in California, you actually sometimes need some shade for your berries. So we are concerned about sunburn and other things like that. So we're not, even in Australia, I've talked to them as well, they're not recommending leaf removal, we think that risk is too high in the benefit too low at this stage. We are I'm just started a study at Oakville experimental station where we can look at translocation between leaf and vines a little bit more and get a better and I should say leafs and grapes and get a better idea about the kinetics of this translocation. When does it happen? Does it only happen when you also have sugar translocation happening? We would no more than a couple of years.
Craig Macmillan 21:32
That's good. And I hope that everything continues apace. I'm very pleased to see how much research has been funded in this area. And also the collaboration. I think that the whole West Coast working together I think is a fantastic thing. And I hope that we can continue that model going forward. This isn't one of those problems where you know, we got a supply side grower, and then we have a consumer, the winery. And often we draw a line between those two. This is an issue that somehow we got to find a way of working together on this, we've got to find a way of finding some balance in terms of what the outcomes are going to be or what's going to happen. At this point qhat do you what do you think about that? What are what are things that you've come across that seemed like they made the community that if you will function or where things just clearly were problems that were going to be really, really bad? In kind of the more like logistical, social, economic realms?
Anita Oberholster 22:20
Yes, I guess communication is key, right. And I do feel that this is a heavy burden that should be carried equally by the grape grower and the winemaker, there's been a little bit of everything. You have the situations where some grape contracts were canceled with no rhyme or reason, it seems like. And then you have the situations where you have winemakers that talk to their grape growers. Made bucket fermentations with their grapes, brought them in, tasted together, looked at the data, had a discussion. And that's really optimal. So what I really would like to see is that before there's a smoke event, before harvest, right, in the offseason, there needs to be clear communication about how this process is going to work. You know, the grape grow needs to know, okay, what stands in my contract? Okay, what does that mean? When are we going to evaluate the grapes? Who's going to pay for the testing? Who needs to take the samples, take it to the lab? Do we do bucket fermentations? Who do the bucket fermentations? Who's going to taste these wines? And all of these things optimally should be about communication and a shared experience right effort between the grape grower and the winemaker, that's really the best situation. So for growers, I would say, talk to the winery and make sure that there are steps in place, don't assume they are there, make sure that they are actually in place and what they are, what's going to be your responsibility. How's that conversation going to go? If there is a smoke event, it's really important. But also for growers, you know, I'm recommending, I know that testing is really expensive. However, if you can, for crop insurance, you need a sample of each block of each variety, which is a lot. But even if you can just take a composite sample, you know, 300 berries in a bag. I mean 100 If you don't have a lot of grapes, in a bag, throw it in your freezer. Every couple of weeks from verasion. I would say our risk for smoke exposure really exponentially goes up from verasion onwards. So I would say from verasion, take a berry sample, throw it in your freezer. If don't need it, you don't need it. But if there's a smoke event, then you can go back to your pre smoke sample. You can have that analyzed with your harvest sample. And you can see what's the difference? Because the problem is we do not have public baseline. And we're at baseline I mean for the main varieties, what is normal for your area, what is the normal amount of volatile phenols. Because this is the problem we're all doing testing, and then say, now we're supposed to know what's elevated. How do you know what's elevated if you don't know what's normal. And then like I just said, you can get smoke impact without wine taint, right? How much elevation do you need before it actually results in a wine that's tainted, and that's what we're also trying to address. But we're only now this season will be our second year for baseline. Trying to determine baseline for the seven main varieties in California to at least as a reference when you get numbers back from the lab so that you can interpret it more easily. And we're also doing threshold studies in wine. That is, how much of these compounds can be in a specific wine matrix before it results in a decrease in quality. That's what we're trying to do. I call it the two bookends. If we have the two bookends, then contracts can be more specific, perhaps they can even have numbers in them. Now numbers is difficult because we just don't have enough data to know whether what is a good number to put in a contract. I mean, there's some numbers out there based on guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol. That's only two of the seven free vlatine phenols. That doesn't even take the bound into account. So this is something I do want to tell a grower and this is really important. Crop insurance is based on only guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol, only to marker compounds. Here's the problem, you may have smoke impacting your berries, and that guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol number is below quantification limits, right? So you think you're good, no problem. The issue is most of these free volatile phenols depending on when grapes are exposed to smoke can be in the bound form. So you don't see it. But now the winemaker takes those grapes, he makes wine during the winemaking process, up to 30% of that bound can be released to free. And now suddenly you have a problem because it made wine that impacted but according to crop insurance, your data did not show smoke impact. And this is why we're really telling people to do small scale fermentations. And I know don't ask a grower to do fermentation is not a small ask. So that would be great if your winery was prepared to do it. But it's not that difficult. I do have a video on my website. I cringe saying this. But it was done overnight. But there you go,
Craig Macmillan 27:31
There will be a link to that particular video, by the way, I think I thought it was great. I thought it was I thought was fantastic. It is a little intimidating, I have to admit, but it was really, really good and a lot of numbers and a lot of things. But but you got it, you got to do it, you got to do it. Right. I mean, there's no other sense.
Anita Oberholster 27:45
I think, you know, I tried to on the fly, in my brain, make it so that somebody in a kitchen can do it, using things that you may have at on hand right to make the wine. So the advantage here is crop insurance meeting us halfway. They said so long as you can show chain of custody, so long as I bucket fermentation actually represents that block for that specific variety, they will take that wine number so that one you can take that bucket fermentation and get that analyzed for guaiacol and 4-methylguaiacol. That may still show safe and then why may still end up being smoke impacted six, nine months later that unfortunately do happen. However, your chances is much greater that it will show you impact if you had impact just because you had that 20 to 30% that can be released during the primary fermentation process. And this is why we recommend that. Now that you know the story gets convoluted because there's some people now saying but grape analysis and wine analysis gives you the same number. There's some researchers out there saying that. And it's true for how they looked at the grapes, the grape number and the wine number was the same. However, most labs will take the grapes, homogenize it spin down the juice and analyze the juice. That's not an extensible amount of skin contact you really to get the same amount that will end up in the wine, you need at least five days of contact.
Craig Macmillan 29:15
Okay, there is the key.
Anita Oberholster 29:16
And so that's why I'm saying just do not do a mini fermentation because you need that skin contact time. Researchers that say that grapes on wine they get the same number by analysis is because for their sample prepping the grapes, they did something like a five day course.
Craig Macmillan 29:31
But also because if you have an active fermentation, you are having some enzymatic activity that's going to break those glucosides and set those phenols the variable freeness free and that's what's happening in reality. So that's that's part of it.
Anita Oberholster 29:45
Good point. So this is what happening. Yes. So especially in the beginning, as soon as you crush your groups, there's enzymes within the cells of the groups and then gets released and they can release the sugars from the volatile phenols. Now during the winemaking process in the beginning until the alcohol formation gets too high, the alcohol do inhibit these enzymes, you get that release. And then after that, you also have the fact that wine has a low pH between three and four. And so you get some acid release as well, because they're acid liable, meaning that they do release the sugars over time. But that type of reuse is slow.
Craig Macmillan 30:24
That's a good question. Is there an unknown effect of pH on this? You know, you talk, you talked about a target pH that many winemakers would like to have. But I know that it was along the central coast, it's not unusual to be three, seven push and three, eight going from there. And in other spots, making white wines with three twos. Do we know what the what the effect is?
Anita Oberholster 30:42
Okay, so here's the thing, I'm not recommending acidifying your wines to a ridiculous low pH and then adjusting it to get to get more to release. The thing is, there is a pH effect, but it's not very strong. So in the range of wine, this is why after wine is made, these bound compounds are actually pretty stable over five, six years, you may get another 10 15% releasing, okay. So that they don't actually release a lot at the wine range pH. So in a short period of time, I don't think it's worth doing that kind of thing. Just to give you some context in the lab, if we're trying to hydrolyze basically to remove all the sugars from the volatile phenols. We adjust the pH with hydrochloric acid or sulfiric acid to pH one.
Craig Macmillan 31:33
Oh my god!
Anita Oberholster 31:34
Then we heat it at 100 degrees Celsius for one hour. And it still does not release that.
Craig Macmillan 31:43
Holy cow.
Anita Oberholster 31:44
So just want to say this is extreme conditions. Because you know, in 2020, somebody contacted me and asked that winemaker wants me to spray to tartaric acid on my grapes to break down the glycosides. Now, obviously, that is a lot of unnecessary labor, because it's gonna do nothing to those bound, volatile phenols.
Craig Macmillan 32:05
That's gonna be an uncontrollable situation, man.
Anita Oberholster 32:07
Yeah, so that kind of thing. You know, I have to say, I want to invite growers. If somebody asked you to do something weird, or something you think is really not needed, you're obviously free to contact me and I will share my knowledge which they may forward to the winemaker.
Craig Macmillan 32:24
Well, it's part of the communication.
Anita Oberholster 32:25
I actually have a cooperative extension specialist for the for the enology side for the wine side, I true believer, all wines, and all good wines are made in the vineyard. Yeah, I you know, I'm a farmer's daughter. So I get it. So I really do want to look out for both sides. Because where would a winery be without grapes?
Craig Macmillan 32:45
And where would a grape poor be without wineries?
Anita Oberholster 32:47
Exactly right. So it's a two way street. And we need to figure this out together. You know, it's a difficult situation. And unfortunately, we don't know that much more than 2020. But I think we know more about how to prepare ourselves. And sometimes not, you know, knowledge is power, even just knowing what we don't know, is power. And just being more informed is power, right? The more you understand about the problem, the smaller the chance that somebody can come and tell you something that's totally wrong, and get you to do something that actually makes matters worse, which wastes your time or waste your money and is not going to help.
Craig Macmillan 33:27
So we only got about another minute here left, we got to wrap up. What, is there one thing that you would recommend to a grape grower on this topic related to this topic?
Anita Oberholster 33:37
I would say please store berry samples. Buy a freezer, and store samples. There's so many people that's now in litigation, and they asked my help. And I can't help them because they don't have a grape sample. And even the sample you sent to the labs that were smoke impacted those samples. Keep reference samples of them too. You never know when you need to go back to them. It breaks my heart when I can't help them prove what they're trying to tell me because they just don't have the samples to analyze. It's really important and and please talk to your winery, make sure that you know what steps to take. Talk to your crop insurance know what steps to take to ensure that you're at least covered if you need it.
Craig Macmillan 34:25
Where can people find out more about you and your work?
Anita Oberholster 34:28
So you know, I'm on the viticulture enology, the Department of Viticulture and Enology website, just look under personnel. I'm there, my contact details are there. There's a link to my bio and some of the work that I do and you know, just send me an email. It's very important to say persistence is key. I do receive more than 100 emails per day. So it's sometimes difficult to get to everybody and sometimes I really miss important emails. That's a shame. So it's really good when people actually send a repeat.
Craig Macmillan 34:59
Okay, Hey, good advice. So our guest today has been Dr. Anita Oberholster Professor Cooperative Extension Enology in the department of Viticulture and Enology, UC Davis,. Thank you so much for being a guest. This is a hugely important topic and obviously isn't going away. And the science on this is developing. Golly, probably by the month. You know, as I watched the literature, there's new publications on this topic globally. Every issue of something so keep up the good work, keep us informed. We'd love to have you back in the future and we'll talk some more about what we learned.
This year we just had to work with Isis Daniel, aka the Millennial Somm again. A certified Level 3 with Merit Wine and Spirit Education Trust wine consultant and wine content creator, she produces educational and entertaining wine content across her social media channels. In her fun and casual #TastingThursday Instagram live show, she sits and sips with wine-growers and -makers through a friendly interview, giving her audience insight into the personalities and passions of the people behind the wines. Grab a glass of McIntyre's 2018 Pinot Noir and sit back and enjoy our #TastingThursday with Kristen McIntyre of McIntyre Wines!
A lifelong love for travel, a degree in Visual Arts and Art History, and a whimsical purchase of a bottle of Bordeaux were the perfect ingredients to inspire Christy to begin her exploration of California's diverse wine-growing regions. Thus, Christy on the Vine was born. Her wine blog is dedicated to documenting her experiences with the wines and wineries she encounters on her journeys.
Dedicated to making wine, food, and travel more fun, Mike Cano leverages his multilingual, communications, and digital marketing skills to invite consumers of all demographics to explore various wines and wine regions. Through his wine blog, LatinxWine, he shares informative brand backstory and wine tasting notes of the wines he enjoys.
His sunny, poolside Instagram post documents his experience of two SIP Certified wines: Center of Effort's 2017 Edna Valley Chardonnay, and Cambria Estate Winery's 2020 Julia's Vineyard Pinot Noir.
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Check out the show notes for links to this article, more posts filled with the latest social media tips to grow your following, and to sign up for our biweekly Marketing Tips newsletter. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.
And with me today is Jeff Sledd, who is the county executive director of the San Luis Obispo County Farm Service Agency, which is part of the United States Department of Agriculture. And today we're going to talk about the tree Assistance Program plus couple of other things. Hey, thanks for being on the podcast, Jeff.
Jeff Sledd 0:14
Hey, I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to join you, Craig. Thank you.
Craig Macmillan 0:18
For those who may not be familiar with the organization, what exactly is the Farm Service Agency?
Jeff Sledd 0:23
Sure, good question. So the Farm Service Agency is a division of the United States Department of Agriculture. We are tasked specifically to administer the Farm Bill, which is a package of legislation that Congress puts out around every five or so years, that has to do with everything ag related in the US. And the Farm Service Agency specifically administers the subsidy and disaster programs that are designed to aid farmers with financial assistance to help them feed America.
Craig Macmillan 0:59
And speaking of disasters, there is a program called the Tree Assistance Program that is to help growers of tree things specifically, in the face of various kinds of losses. Can you tell us a little bit about the program just in general and who's eligible?
Jeff Sledd 1:15
So yes, it's called the Tree Assistance Program. Because we're a federal agency. We abbreviate everything, so if you call in and ask about it, you'll probably hear us call it TAP tree Assistance Program. It's a bit of a misnomer because it is for trees, bushes and vines, anything that is grown, that is part of a commercial farming operation, this program would cover those. Again, like I said, as long as it's for commercial consumption or use. The Tree Assistance Program specifically, is a cost share program that helps farmers and ranchers and orchardists remove and replant dead or diseased trees, bushes, and vines that are dead or diseased because of a qualifying condition for the program. Most of those conditions are natural occurrences weather related disasters but for grape growers, specifically in San Luis Obispo County, the plant disease Red Blotch is sort of how this program is used most. So for orchardists, who have Red Blotch in their vineyards to a point where you know, it's beginning to curtail their production. This program helps cost share the price of removing those vines, prepping the ground, and then replanting new vines.
Craig Macmillan 2:40
Are there other diseases or issues that like maybe statewide that also would be covered for winegrapes by TAP.
Jeff Sledd 2:46
Most other probably parts of the state and the nation really use the tree assistance program more for natural disasters like floods and freezes and things like that. Well, we don't have unfortunately, we don't have very many floods, don't have a lot of rain. But probably it could be used for things like fire if a fire came through and burn up an orchard. But it's typically used more for like freezes and things like that.
Craig Macmillan 3:16
I had a memory that maybe Pierce's Disease was also covered by the program and Leaf Roll virus had been added a couple of years ago is that true?
Jeff Sledd 3:23
Leaf roll virus has been added, a Pierce's Disease, although I don't know how prevalent that is in San Luis Obispo County, I can tell you, we haven't helped any vineyards that have Pierce's Disease, but yes, it would, it could qualify and there are other diseases that may not be approved at this point. But if you one of your listeners is being affected by a disease that we haven't mentioned, they can certainly contact us and we can go through the process of potentially having that specific disease added as a qualifying condition.
Craig Macmillan 4:00
I think this is an important point is that, you know, our listenership is national now. And there may be things that are either happening, like Pierce's Disease, for instance, or something like that, where they're dealing with it, but they're not getting the information that oh, this qualifies. Or, you know, we got to face facts that like we live in a ever changing environment. And there may be things that come down the pike in the future that may be devastating and may may be potentially could qualify, but of course, don't know that they can bring that. Please bring your issues and we'll look into it and we'll see if it qualifies or not. Maybe it doesn't maybe it does, but it's part of the grower community has to say hey, these are things that are that are impacting us. And to come to say, hey, we need, we'd like some help. What do you think?
Jeff Sledd 4:45
Yeah, that's a good point. Craig. So I'm talking specifically about San Luis Obispo County here in California. However, this program is available nationwide, any county in the nation has a Farm Service Agency Office. That county may specifically, have other diseases that are already approved qualifying losses, or conditions that are prevalent in that area. Red Blotch just happens to be very prevalent in our area. So it's kind of our main concern, but other counties across the nation, if your listeners are listening to this, and they're experiencing something that may be more localized to them, they should definitely contact their Farm Service Agency office to see what help is available because it certainly could be out there.
Craig Macmillan 5:34
What is the application process like to to get some assistance to TAP? What kind of documentation is required, and specifically, Red Blotch is what you've been working with, so let's talk about how that would work.
Jeff Sledd 5:46
Well, so we're a federal agency. So as you can imagine, there's a significant amount of paperwork involved, none of it is... None of it's too difficult. And all of it, we are more than willing to help you work, work with you to get to get all that paperwork done. So the first part would be an app, a TAP application, a tree Assistance Program application, which is basically just some general information of what disaster are you experiencing. When did that disaster start? When was it apparent to you, because those two aren't necessarily the same, right?
Craig Macmillan 6:26
That's true.
Jeff Sledd 6:27
When it started when it was apparent to you and you know, how many acres and how many trees, bushes or vines are affected in that acreage. So that's the TAP application or the tree Assistance Program application. Then we also have a number of other eligibility documents, that would be required for anybody applying for any kind of benefit through our agency. And, you know, again, any FSA office in the nation will help you process and complete those documents. Yeah, so you're gonna fill out the tree Assistance Program application, as part of that, if you have never participated with any Farm Service Agency programs, we are going to need to identify your ground. So to do that, we're going to need either the recorded grant deed for the acreage that your grapes are on or if it is, if it does happen to be a rented vineyard, vineyard that you're leasing, then you'd have to provide the signed executed current lease that shows the legal description of the land, so we can find that land in our mapping system. So we're going to need your APN numbers or, you know, section township range, something like that, or an address that shows, kind of gives us legal description of that land, so we can identify your land and attach you to it in our system. Then, as a part of that, where you know, we're gonna have to add you into our system. So there's some just some general forms that get your contact information, who you are, your address, contact, all that kind of stuff. And then any producers that apply for benefits with the USDA or with the Farm Service Agency, there is an eligibility requirement that has to do with income under the current Farm Bill to receive benefits, you have to be able to certify that for the the current year that we are in. So if you're applying for a 2022 program that for the year 2022, you will make equal to or less than $900,000 in your adjusted gross income. No one's filed their 2022 taxes yet, the way we determine that is we send a form to the IRS where you give them permission to take a look back, they're going to skip the immediate last year, and then look at the three years before that. So for 2022, we're going to skip 2021 and look back at 2020, 2019 and 2018. And if you as an individual or an entity, if it's a general partnership, or a corporation that is applying for the benefits, if that partnership or entity or individual can qualify that they made the equal to or less than $900,000 for those three review years, then you would be considered eligible or compliant with that average Adjusted Gross Income certification for the program here that you're applying for. It sounds like a complex form, but it's really a check in a box. It's pretty simple. And most producers if if you're, you know at the cusp, that you're not quite sure if you would exceed or you know, be above that threshold, your CPA or tax attorney certainly would be able to help you with that. But it's a pretty simple form. So there's that. Then there's some other forms that are environmental compliance, you have to promise that you're going to take care arable land in such a way that causes it not to erode away and that sort of thing, a lot of paperwork, but it's all basic, pretty simple paperwork and nothing that we're not going to help you walk through.
Craig Macmillan 10:11
So if we go through this, we have a successful application, how much assistance can a grower receive?
Jeff Sledd 10:16
the program does have a payment limitation, right for the 2018 Farm Bill, the payment does cap at $125,000 as the most benefit you could receive through the Tree Assistance Program.
Craig Macmillan 10:34
And you had indicated earlier when we're talking about Red Blotch assistance, and things that can include the removal of the vines, treatment of the land, or management of the land, in some fashion, the purchase of the new plant stock and the planting of the new plants, is that right?
Jeff Sledd 10:48
It does. And so we call those different practices that can be approved, right, so the first one would be the removal of the dead and dying vines. The program specifically says that the vine has to be dead to receive assistance. However, with plant diseases, that's a little bit different, it might still technically be alive. But for financial purposes because of the disease, it financially isn't worth continuing growing this volume, because it's not producing, it won't pay for itself. And so if that's the case, we consider that vine dead, even though it technically is still alive. We do pay for removal of the dead vines, or pay a portion of the cost of removal of the dead vines, and then what we call site prep, re leveling the land, that kind of thing, anything that would need to be done to prep the ground to receive the new trees. And then the new trees themselves, we pay for vines here in California, specifically for vines we pay it's $4 a vine or 65% of your actual cost of those vines. You turn in the receipts for what you actually paid, but we take a look and compare that to our $4 per vine, maximum limit. And then we're gonna pay you the lesser of the two, right either 65% of your actual costs or the $4 per vine. In some cases, we could also pay if the vines, really doesn't work for Red Blotch, for but for other diseases or other disasters, there might be vines that don't necessarily need to be ripped out and removed, but do need significant intervention or rehabilitation. In those cases we would pay for the rehabilitation or a portion of the rehabilitation of those vines, rather than the removal.
Craig Macmillan 12:49
And are there growers in San Luis Obispo County that are taken up the program and being part of it?
Jeff Sledd 12:54
This program is like I said a national program that any producer of tree, bush or vine producer across the nation can use but statistically San Luis Obispo County has used the program more than any other county in the nation.
Craig Macmillan 13:11
Really?
Jeff Sledd 13:12
Yeah,
Craig Macmillan 13:12
That's interesting.
Jeff Sledd 13:14
Specifically because of the prevalence of of Red Blotch in our area. So that's why we felt like it was important to contact you guys and get the word out for any grape growers that may not be aware this programs out there to help them if they're struggling with the costs and what to do about Red Blotch in their vineyard.
Craig Macmillan 13:36
You know, that's fantastic and really happy to hear that. I'm really happy to hear that people are coming for help. We've been talking specifically about the tree assistance program, but are there other FSA programs that are available or might be benefit to wine grape growers that you'd recommend?
Jeff Sledd 13:48
There are well, and very specifically, if you're a wine grape grower in the nation, it's possible if you have crop insurance, federally subsidized crop insurance and you got a an indemnity payment in program year 2020 or 2021. We right now have a program called ERP which stands for Emergency Relief Program. And it has to do with the COVID-19 disaster and the drought disaster that California has in in other parts of the nation. So if you are a grape grower and you received crop insurance indemnities in either 20 or 21, you should have received in the mail already from the Farm Service Agency, an application for the ERP or Emergency Relief Program. And what we're finding is because a lot of grape growers aren't used to dealing with the Farm Service Agency that are kind of throwing those aside because they don't know what it is. And you're essentially throwing away your free money if you do that. So if you did get one of those applications, you need to contact your farm service agents immediately and we'll help you complete the process for that. Because that program will pay you 75% right now, of the indemnity that you already received, we'll pay you that, again, if the indemnities that you received were for qualifying losses under the ERP program. So if you got one of those applications from the Farm Service Agency and don't know what it is, definitely have your your listeners should contact their FSA office in their county. If you did get an indemnity, you got an insurance payment in program year 2020, or 2021, or 2022, as well and didn't get an application, then you should contact your FSA office because we can print it out for you and get it to you. In case it you know, it went to the wrong address or something along those lines. Definitely, that's one we have, like the Tree Assistance Program. We also have, we have other disaster related programs that kind of come and go depending on what the disasters in a certain county or certain parts of the country are. And so definitely, if you are a grape grower, and you have had some kind of natural disaster, or a fire or a flood or freeze or something along those lines, you should definitely reach out to your Farm Service Agency.
Craig Macmillan 16:25
And when I was reading a little bit about the FSA, and if I understood correctly, the way FSA was was designed is meant to be really an interface between the farmer community and the USDA, a spot where people can connect directly to their government, basically, there's grower direction in this, there's a committee of farmers that are involved.
Jeff Sledd 16:46
Yeah, you've done your you've done your homework Craig, good job. So one of the things about the Farm Service Agency that we really pride ourselves in is we are really the last federal agency at a county level that is still directed or run by an elected Board of farmers in our case. So we do have a we call it the county committee, or again, we abbreviate everything, so we call them the COC. But they're a board of elected farmers that they are tasked with reviewing all of these applications that come in and approving or denying them based on procedures. So as the county executive director, I actually report directly to that board, the county committee, and it's kind of my job to help the committee know what the rules and regulations are to know what they what authority they have and don't have, and that sort of thing. And actually, this year, in our county, we have one of our board positions coming available. And we would love actually to have a grape grower on our board. Right now, we don't have a grape grower. We have other producers, you know, other types of farmers, but we would certainly love to have a grape grower. So if you are interested, you have to live in a certain part of the county because the county is cut into different we call them local administrative areas. And so you have to live in the right area of the county and farm in the right area of the county to run. If any of your listeners in San Luis Obispo County are interested, they certainly should reach out to me and because we definitely for 2023 will be holding an election at the end of this year for a seat on that board that is a three year term. That's certainly a way that a farmer or a vineyardist could get involved in the local government of their community that has a direct impact on ag in our community and has influence you know, statewide and even all the way up to the national level and what kind of programs are implemented for farmers here at the local level.
Craig Macmillan 19:05
Yeah, and that may be true at the time of this recording of this particular podcast. But that's in San Luis Obispo County, but it's also going to be true all the way into the future across the nation,
Jeff Sledd 19:15
Across the nation absolutely.
Craig Macmillan 19:16
If you, you know, feel like you can have an influence and like to help your fellow growers, which is what this is about. Getting involved is always a great idea if you're really passionate about trying to make things better for yourself and for your neighbors. And I think this is a great example of how growers can have an impact beyond the fence line, right and can have a positive influence on their community. So I think it's fantastic, great way of organizing the organization. It sounds like a really great way of getting involved with these various things.
Jeff Sledd 19:45
It's a great way to get involved that doesn't require too much time. You know, we're going to ask a couple hours a month from you, usually one day a month for a couple of hours. So it's a great way to get involved ad to assist, and serve the ag community that doesn't require just, you know, tons and tons of time and input.
Craig Macmillan 20:08
So related to TAP or anything else related to the FSA, what is one thing you would recommend to our listeners?
Jeff Sledd 20:15
Sure. So assuming that I'm talking really mostly to grape growers, right, in California, and really across the state, I would recommend, get to know your Farm Service Agency, at least know where that agency is located, how to contact that agency, because if you're not in need of the Tree Assistance Program, right now, we, all the time have ad hoc programs that just kind of come down from Congress to address specific problems that you may or may not have heard in the news about. We have assistance to give away to farmers to producers, ag producers in the nation. And if you don't know about it, you don't get your piece of the pie. So I would say my one one piece of advice is even if you don't have Red Blotch like like what we're talking about today, find out where your Farm Service Agency is, and get involved or get connected to them so that we're aware of you and you're aware of us. So when you do have some need for us, or we have some program that fits what you do, you're in our data bank so we can reach out to you and you know, have that beneficial relationship with one another.
Craig Macmillan 21:25
And so in this particular case, since Obispo County, how do people find you? Where are you located? How do they reach out to you, Jeff?
Jeff Sledd 21:32
In San Luis Obispo County, our office is in Templeton the heart of wine country right here, right next door to Paso Robles. So you can certainly come to our office, but specifically I would tell your producers to go to farmers.gov, FARMERS, farmers.gov. That's the USDA's public facing page. And in that you can get to know really every program we have but there's also on there very easy to find a find your local FSA office and it'll drill down and it'll get you right to the office in your county. Whichever county that is farmers here in San Luis Obispo County can contact me either through farmers.gov or I can give you my email address. Absolutely, welcome to reach out to us that way as well.
Craig Macmillan 22:25
I want to thank our guest, Jeff Sledd County Executive Director of the San Luis Obispo County Farm Service Agency, part of the United States Department of Agriculture. Jeff, it has really been a pleasure. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.
Jeff Sledd 22:37
Craig, I appreciate the opportunity.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Hi, I'm your host Craig Macmillan. And today our guests are Tom Shapland, who is the Co-Founder and CEO of Tule Technologies. And Lucas Pope, who is Director of Operations for Coastal Vineyard Services. Thanks, you guys for being here.
Tom Shapland 0:12
Great to be here. Thank you for having us.
Craig Macmillan 0:16
Today, we're going to talk about irrigation scheduling very important topic, obviously, which will become obvious if it's not already as we move through the interview here. I've had a lot of experience with this. And now I get the pleasure of hearing what other folks say rather than just listening to myself all the time. I've got a question for both of you, Tom, you can go first. Why is irrigation scheduling using a methadone other than just simply calendar approach so important?
Tom Shapland 0:39
We know irrigation scheduling is important, because every year the yield and quality from a vineyard changes. And we can ask ourself, what happened that the yield or quality is different this year in this very same piece of ground compared to last year. And there are a number of factors we can point to the weather is different every year, how you manage the canopy may be different every year, how you manage the fruit load. And finally, another thing that's important is how much water has been stored in the soil profile from winter rainfall and how you irrigate it. And we know that every year the vines get, a vineyard block gets a different amount of water from winter rainfall that sets up every year in a different way. And how we irrigate influences the water status of the plants throughout the year and in turn influences the yield and quality of the vineyard. So we can look at the yield and quality for each particular year. And we can ask ourselves, why is the yielding quality different this year compared to last year. And one of the main factors is how we irrigated. That if we just irrigate, assuming that everything's the same every year that the canopy size is the same, the amount of rainfall stored in the soil profile is the same, we're gonna get a different result. So if you're really trying to aim for a certain yield target, or a certain quality target, or a certain yield and quality target, you can't just leave it up to a calendar, you're not going to reach your production goal, you have to manage according to the water status of the plant, you have to manage irrigation according to the water status and plants. If you expect to reach some target in yielding quality, you can't manage by calendar to achieve your targets for yield and quality you have to manage based on the water status of the plants.
Craig Macmillan 2:21
So this would be similar conceptually to the idea of targeted fertilization, where I'm going to measure how much nitrogen in the soil I'm going to measure what the plant nutrient status is. And I'm going to act accordingly as opposed to just putting on so many units every spring or fall. Lucas, what are your thoughts on this topic?
Lucas Pope 2:37
I think Tom hit it on the head. Ultimately, each season is different. So we are trying to actively manage different things at different times of the year. So going from a calendar type, more of an old school thought process of just irrigating on a calendar doesn't really work. Now, in an environment where quality and quantity kind of drive what we do as a farmer. I definitely second all the thoughts that Tom had. And I think that being active in your irrigation management allows you to drive the boat. I've learned a lot over the years from Tom about how early season growth and canopy growth is really important for quality. And you can drive that and being able to limit the water and stress the vines later in the season drives quality. If you're trying to hit top top quality grapes, it's extremely important. One of the most important factors in how we're able to farm actively with our environment to try and achieve the quality that our clients are expecting.
Craig Macmillan 3:37
In your career. Lucas, what are some of the technologies and techniques that you've used over the years to achieve that, because there's lots of different ways to do it. I'm guessing you probably have used a number of different ways.
Lucas Pope 3:47
You've used a number ways. And I've also seen a lot of presentations on different technologies. There are I remember seeing Tom when he was a graduate student give a presentation at Templeton. I fully bought on to the idea, it's gonna be really interesting to see if he was able to actually implement and he made his product commercial, it was phenomenal to see the ability to actually measure your Et coming off the field.
Craig Macmillan 4:10
What does Et stand for?
Lucas Pope 4:12
Evapotransporation. So the actual vines breathing per se, it's exhaling of humidity, and you can measure that very accurately. We've also looked at SAP flow technology where you get SAP and track its movement over a trunk and then a lot of pressure bombs, a whole lot of pressure bombs. Looking at also soil probes to see what's going on underground. That's also a really critical part of the irrigation puzzles, knowing what's going on underground. And if you know your dirt really well then really aids in your decision making process for how much water to put on for your goal of that irrigation. So there are a lot of things out there to help you monitor. At some point there's so much data that it becomes hard to sift through and get good information but I utilize now only the... We have a few soil moisture sensors, but primarily the whole actual Et tracking, because what I've found works the best for me.
Craig Macmillan 5:07
I think one of the keys here is that you've got soil based methods. So you get so much monitored, you've got your plant based methods, whether it's measuring water potential in the plant with a pressure bomb, or whether it's a SAP flow meter measurement. And then you have weather based, whether it be Et, or just trying to work from some kind of weather information. And some of the people that I've talked to seem to feel that relying just on one maybe isn't all it's cracked up to be, but having the ability to look at a couple of different variables. So they Lucas in your case, having some soil and having some weather so that you can kind of correlate and make decisions based on the bigger, bigger picture, I think is great.
Lucas Pope 5:48
For sure, one of the big factors to all this is having a really good forecast, a really good forecast for seeing what's coming up. Because irrigation timing and management has to be something you actively take care of. And you're always thinking about forecasting is also a huge part of it.
Craig Macmillan 6:04
There's there's forecasting, and there's also looking backward. And this is something that continually confuses me. And I've tried to figure this out. And I think I'm still confused. So we measured the water applied in terms of acre feet per acre. That's kind of like really important metric on an annual basis, to say, hey, how are we doing? Did we put on more did we put on less? Did we put on enough? How did the different blocks fare? And they could fit based on the acre inch anchor inch to the idea of rain falling, covering an acre of land, one inch deep, thats so many gallons, but that's not how the water goes on to the actual vineyard. Tom, can you maybe address the difference between those two concepts? Because I haven't really gotten it straight.
Tom Shapland 6:45
We get this question from our customers. And whenever this comes up, I have to pause and think about it for a little bit, because it's complicated. In fact, I normally review some notes that I have to make sure that I'm getting it right. I'm really reviewing those notes now, in the podcast as I talk through this. So let's start with the idea of what is an acre inch. An acre inch is enough water to fill a pool that is one acre in size to a depth of one inch. So imagine a pool that's the size of an acre and you put enough water in there, that when you step in that pool, it goes up to just below your ankle, and it takes about 27,000 gallons of water to do that. So an acre inch is a volume of water and it's 27,000 gallons. When we apply water and vineyards we're not spreading that water evenly out over the acre. Instead we're applying it through drip emitters. It brings up the question how much water is getting applied right under the vine in that drip emitter space in the in the wet area under the drip emitter. And that's what I'm going to talk through now. So let's first talk about a typical vineyard in San Luis Obispo County. Typical vineyard in San Luis Obispo County has nine by five foot, vine and row spacing. So the vines are spaced nine feet apart between rows and five feet apart within rows. And with the typical emitter rates that we see in San Luis Obispo County, if you turn on your pump and let it run for 20 hours, you will have applied 27,000 gallons per acre. The first concept I want to tell the listeners is when you're asking yourself how do I know when I've applied an acre inch to my entire vineyard. You can think of the number 20 hours. In San Luis Obispo County typically 20 hours is how long it takes to run an irrigation system to apply an acre inch of water. That's because most vineyards in San Luis Obispo County are a nine by five spacing. And when you look at the emitter rates and how many emitters there are per vine works out to about 20 hours.
Craig Macmillan 8:53
And it's easy enough to do the conversion to other spacings once we know that based on like an apply to mine.
Tom Shapland 8:58
So here's the trickier part. Now that we've established one acre inches, and we've established how long it takes to run an irrigation system to apply an acre inch or 27,000 gallons of water. Now let's talk about how much water gets applied under the drip zone. When we turn on the pump, and I'm going to walk you through that calculation. Let's assume that's the water when you turn it on the pump is spread out under the drip zone in about a foot and a half square area. So picture a square foot but make it a little bit bigger. So it's about a foot and a half square foot. And again, we're going to assume this vineyard is on nine by five spacing. And when you turn on the water for 20 hours and you apply 27,000 gallons of water through the drip system. You're not putting on that water across that entire area of the vineyard. Instead you're putting it on a more limited area of the vineyard just that foot and a half under the drip zone. Foot maps, square foot under the drip zone. So when you apply 27,000 gallons under that foot and a half under the drip zone, you're actually applying 8.3 inches of water to that wetted area. And the reason that's true is because you're applying the water, not across the entire vineyard, but a much smaller area of the vineyard, just the wet zone, you're not spreading that water equally across the entire vineyard. Instead, it's just the wetted zone. So why does that 8.3 inches number important? Well, it's, it's interesting to think about in terms of what's the average water holding capacity in San Luis Obispo County. For six feet of rooting depth, let's just say six feet is a good starting point for assuming how how deep the vines, vine roots go actually think they tend to go deeper. I know they go deeper if the soil is deeper, but let's just assume six feet. Well, the water holding capacity in San Luis Obispo County is 5.3 inches on average. So if you're turning on your pump for 20 hours, let's bring it all together. Now all back to one idea. If you turn on your pump for 20 hours, you're gonna apply an inch of water, but you're not putting that water out across the entire vineyard, you're putting it just in the wetted zone. And if your vineyard has the average water holding capacity in the county, you're putting on more water than that soil can hold under the drip zone. You're putting on 8.3 inches of water. But the soil can only hold 5.3 inches of water.
Craig Macmillan 11:27
So if I put on 5.3 inches of water only? Am I going to capture all of that? Or is there still going to be some drainage?
Tom Shapland 11:34
That's a interesting question, Craig.
Craig Macmillan 11:36
Depend on the soil probably?
Tom Shapland 11:38
Yeah, let's say that we're going back to this hypothetical vineyard that we've been talking about here, it has 5.3 inches of water holding capacity. If that soil is at the permanent wilting point, so it's very dry already, and you put on 5.3 inches of water in that drip zone, then that water should be there, that water is not going to go anywhere, you're actually going to lose some to evaporation. That's why I hesitated there. But let's assume there's no evaporation either. If you put on 5.3 inches of water, just under that drip zone, it's in your soils dry to start with, it'll hold it. But if you have any water already in there, you're gonna saturate that soil. And you're gonna get some drainage out the bottom, or you'll start to see some runoff off the top. It gets a little tricky in this hypothetical situation we're talking about, I think maybe we shouldn't avoid that for the moment.
Craig Macmillan 12:30
But this that, because of variation along the coast, this means I'm going to have to have an idea of what my particular water available water only capacity is. Lucas, what how do you go about guesstimating or measuring or getting a handle on that because in your area, you've got everything from really heavy clays to sand.
Lucas Pope 12:47
Yeah, so the only way to really do it is soil samples. And Tom has helped me dissect some soil pits to figure out different layers, different depths, water holding capacities, actually sending out soils to labs, to find out your entire profile five to six feet deep, how much water you can actually hold or, like in the case of places we have soil moisture sensors, we can just watch the water, and then watch how fast it drains. It's pretty interesting to see. And that's typically why we irrigate not such long sets, the only time we really irrigate really long sets is to leech salt, because like Tom saying, if you're going to do a long set, you're going to carry the water beyond the rooting zone. And therefore you're able to leach those salts farther down. But that's only in overwinter watering. We're not we never really do that during the summertime or even to drive some growth this time of the year. Most of our irrigation sets are between four and eight hours to give the vines enough water that they're in the soil for them to grow, but not be excessive. I think that's been one of the more critical parts are pieces to the puzzle when you're trying to be as water conscious as possible.
Craig Macmillan 14:00
So Lucas, how do you know what's excessive?
Lucas Pope 14:03
What's excessive would be I mean, if you have the ability to watch this, the soil sensors, soil moisture probes, you can tell when you hit the depth at the bottom and tell where how deep that is. And if you're being excessive. Otherwise, if you overwinter when we're trying to leach salts, we want to be excessive when waters you know, typically we do that while there's rain coming and a rain event coming or rain event just past. So your soils are going to be somewhere near saturation already. And we're just trying to push salt deeper. Otherwise, it's a really good question. We don't try and be excessive and that's why we keep our irrigations shorter.
Craig Macmillan 14:37
Then my question I guess is, like how do you know?
Tom Shapland 14:40
Let me jump in, One way I sometimes see this with some of our new customers who have not been measuring Et in the past. We tell them with our sensor here's how much water your vineyard used over the last week. And if you're applying more water than what the vines used, then that's one way of knowing that I'm applying too much water. So if my vines use 20 gallons per vine last week, but you put on 30, you know that those vines didn't use all of the water that you put on.
Craig Macmillan 15:14
I want to ask you guys about the flip side of this, how do I know if I'm not putting on enough water? Especially when we're in a drought, we're not getting rain, we may not be getting that soil profile filled up going into budbreak. We may, we're having some heat events. Weather information in the Paso Robles area that I looked at last year showed that the highs were higher and the length of the heat waves were longer. And it's not a linear relationship by any means. I'm not suggesting that. But we had some, you know, 105 for four days in a row situations. How do I know whether I'm putting on enough?
Tom Shapland 15:45
It depends on what time of year, you'd have different goals for different times of year. So this time of year, we're talking now in the spring, it's May, the goal is to develop a large enough canopy that you can ripen your crop and protect your crop from sun damage. So this time of year, growers are watching their shoot tips and monitoring the growth of their shoot tips or monitoring the growth of their vines making sure that their vines are not slowing down. Once the vines slow down and stop growing, it's hard to restart that growth. And some of our growers are using our computer vision tool called Tule Vision that tells the grower whether or not the vines are less than 10 bars in midday leaf water potential or 10 bars or above 10 bars in midday leaf water potential. And right around 10 bars is where the vines start to slow down. So are, some of our growers are using this tool to monitor their canopies and make sure they're not slowing down if they begin to see signs that they're slowing down like they're seeing midday leaf water potential readings of 10 bars, then they know it's time to take some sort of action. Generally that action is water. I think it's water because I have a hammer, and everything's a nail everything's a water problem for me. But you know if you know the nutritional status of your vineyard, how it's been managed, you think it hasn't been getting enough nitrogen might be time for a shot of nitrogen too. So to summarize, in the beginning of the season, you're trying to manage canopy growth and growers are watching their canopies. If they're canopies are slowing down, they need to apply water and nitrogen. Then once the canopy has reached its full size around pea size, for the fruit stage, it typically happens late May to get the most vigorous sites it can be all the way you know, mid July, and in some areas of San Luis Obispo County, then growers are managing the stress level their plants they're seeing how stressed their plants are. And the best growers have a plan going into the season for here's how much water stress I want at different stages of the crop development. And I'm going to monitor my water stress compared to that target and irrigate when I go below that target. I may hold off from irrigating while I'm above that target. And we started this conversation talking about the importance of irrigating not on the calendar, so that you can achieve the yield and quality goals that you have every year. Wine business is very competitive. You have to achieve your targets for staying alive. Thus, growers are setting up targets for what water stress they want, at different times of the year. And then monitoring that water stress and irrigating accordingly. And so they can get to that yield and quality target that they set out for.
Craig Macmillan 18:22
And the key key here is that those targets are numerical, they are measured. They are quantitative. I want to touch on the Tule Vision technology for a second because I think it's an interesting hybrid, where the way I understand is that you have a camera, you take a picture of a vine, it then goes to the cloud, there's a artificial intelligence machine learning thing to understand. That takes that image compares it to this huge catalog that was ground truth against pressure bomb readings for leaf water potential or stem water potentials. That's right, that accurate?
Lucas Pope 18:57
Tom, did you use pressure bombs? Or do you use the Tule measurements?
Tom Shapland 19:02
We use the Tule measurements, that's what I was about to say. The Tule measurements and Tule measurements are correlated to the pressure bomb. So we use some of the academic research that showed the relationship between water stress measured using the Et method and water stress measured using the pressure bond method. We use that relationship to create our ground truth data set.
Craig Macmillan 19:24
Okay, so there was actually there's some kind of steps something's correlated that something's correlated something else. The reason I bring this up is I did a study with Vineyard Team few years ago, and we would interview growers about irrigation scheduling and the number one thing that came out of it was visual. So people might have these other technologies but the number one thing they revised the relied upon was visual. I thought that was really made a lot of sense. I get it. But also the other thing was like even with visual information, you can quantify it. You can count active shoot tips, you can again take pictures for yourself, you can you know look at the Tule Vision information. I went to one of your are demonstrations, I was walking around with a couple of growers, and we were identifying just visually ourselves what we thought the stress level of the vines were. And we were pretty good. We were pretty good. But again, there wasn't a number tied to it. And I think that that's important when you're especially when you're working with 10s of millions of dollars with a crop, winging it. Yeah, you know, your comfort level. And so I think that there's, again, this idea that there's multiple ways of bringing this all together, and you can walk your vineyard and look and early, hey, I'm seeing what I think is the right amount of stress or not. But if you can put a number with it from another measure and go, Hey, now I know exactly how much water I do want to put on I don't want to put on and again, getting to how many inches it actually is how many gallons it actually is, I think is really important. Because otherwise, like you said, we're losing water that otherwise we could be using later. And if it's draining out of the out of the flow profile, then we're losing it. In your guys's minds, what are the biggest challenges? Just overall, we've talked about all kinds of tools and methods? What are some of the biggest challenges overall to scheduling irrigation efficiently? I'm gonna start with you, Lucas.
Lucas Pope 20:59
I mean, it's a constantly moving target. Looking at a forecast right now that you know, we're in the 60s right now. But it's possible to hit 100 on Sunday, and possibly 98 on Monday. Trying to make sure because we're building canopy right now, trying to make sure that we have enough water. So the vines don't stress too early in the season, next week will be really an interesting equation to navigate through because we have so many different vineyards all over the place. Those that have different water holding capacities in the soils, if you have a lower water holding capacity, it's going to be one of my priorities to try and get a little bit of water on this week. Where other sites that are less hillsides or have a drought tolerant rootstock that I know has been established for a few years I'm not so worried about but the constantly moving target is the hardest part about irrigation scheduling, for sure. Like Tom said, we set up targets. I set them up last week for where I want to see my stress levels later in the season. At this point, we're building canopy that's the the focus for right now because I want to have enough canopy to ripen the fruit that is being expected to be grown to a quality level that we want to see into that equation comes how many leaves are going to pull or not based upon sight and location and sunburn exposure or shade cloth use. That all comes into the equation. But because Mother Nature, we're trying to do our best to guide these vines through to the end of the season and deliver a product, a grape itself, that's the highest quality through a maze of what Mother Nature is throwing at us. Like you said, I mean, I can't believe last year's heat waves. It didn't seem that hot. But it was for an extended period of time. The heat spikes I think are what gives us the most, a few years ago when we hit 115 for multiple days straight that that really hurts, we have to be so far in advance thinking about what happens when that situation comes up, we really need to be proactive on those types of situations.
Craig Macmillan 22:57
And that brings me to the next point, which I think is a tricky one. And Tom, I want you to address this. Weather based irrigation scheduling methods like EtAor EtO, they they are backward looking. They're saying hey, this is how much was lost? How can I use this concept of this technology or these ideas to get ahead of it? The grower has got to be in front right or vines are going to collapse. And then you try to put water back on and it's too late. It's got to be wet going into that, right? Those roots need to be wet and cool going into that. What can I do? I mean, there's not a direct relationship necessarily between hey, it's gonna be 105 on Sunday, and that means it's gonna be an EtA of, et cetera. What help can you give us what? What can you tell us?
Tom Shapland 23:41
I can tell you what I see in our data. We have data throughout the state and vineyards all along the coast and inland. And it all boils down to one concept. And this is something that we intuitively know as people who love plants and manage plants. And so they stare at plants all day. And that's that if the plants are in a good water status, before heatwave, they'll do fine. A lot of your vineyards right now out there, it's it's early May when we're talking right now, if we got a heat wave tomorrow, are you are on deep soil and those shoot tips are growing actively and the plants are bright green, they'll do just fine. There's no need to panic and put on 20 hours of water. But if your plants are beginning to dry out, if your water status is more stressed, it's on the brink of being more stressed than you want. And you get a heatwave, that's when you reach these situations where the plants crash and it's hard to get them to recover. And I see this in our data, you know, we get heat waves and as long as the fields that are water stress reading is high, the plants do fine. You know there's not a big drop in fields stat it's when the plants are already kind of at 60% fields stat they're already stressed and we get as heat wave and they don't put on water, then we see fields stats just plummet and it's hard to get them back up. And then the growers are putting on a ton of water. And I think most of that's going to evaporation the plants aren't even able to take it it. Does that match what you've seen Lucas?
Lucas Pope 25:12
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. The vines as long as they're so happy, going into a heatwave, we're pretty good. And I think that's why we strategize the way we do for our irrigations pre heat waves. And it's always 100%. That's where the forecast comes in. The weather forecast itself comes in having a good weather forecast is very difficult sometimes. So I don't know, Craig, I look at three or four. I don't know how many you look at. But I have my little bits and pieces I pick from each one that I trust. And then I try and put them all together and.
Craig Macmillan 25:46
Hope for the best. It's fun to compare notes with people on what whether they trust, what forecasts they trust. Tommy mentioned a thing called field stat. Can you briefly explain what that is, because it's a technical term?
Tom Shapland 25:58
There are a lot of ways to measure water status of plants, they have been developed in the academic literature for years and years. One way is something that we're all familiar with, and, and that's called pressure chamber, water potential measured with the pressure chamber. Another method is to look at how much water the plants are using and compare that to how much they could use, given the weather in the size of the plant. So imagine a plant, if it's 80 degrees out and sunny, and your size of your plant is a six foot long cordon with a nice full canopy, that plant can use so much water, let's say that plant can use five gallons that day. If that plant is not water stressed, it's gonna use all five gallons. But if that plant is encountering water deficits in the soil, it's going to regulate its water use and its going to use less water, it's gonna use three gallons of water, for example. So if plants are using less water than they potentially could use their water stressed. And in academia, this comparison of how much water plants are using compared to what they potentially could use is called the stress coefficient in the Et equation, but the stress coefficient doesn't sound very snappy. We call it field stat, because it sounds cooler.
Craig Macmillan 27:21
That makes sense. We're running out of time here. But I wanted to ask you guys, what is the one thing that you would advise a fellow grower as far as irrigation scheduling? What would be the one bit of advice you might give somebody? Tom why don't you go first?
Tom Shapland 27:36
Yeah, I was thinking about this when he said, What's the hardest part of irrigation scheduling. And when I started Tule, I thought the hardest part was getting good information that you could act upon. And now after nine years of running this business, I think that the hardest part is organizational. Like customers that do the best at farming, they're the most profitable, that grow the best fruit, are the best organized. Our best customers have somebody that is in charge of figuring out the priorities of what's important agronomically. And then once they've identified the priorities, agronomically, they have a process for evaluating which tool they're gonna use to help them achieve their agronomic goals. And then they have a process for implementing it and holding people accountable. Farming is chaos. It's a great Mike Tyson, quote, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. You know, every farmer goes into the growing season with a great plan. But then the farming season happens, you lose a well and whatnot. And it all goes to heck. And the best companies we work with, have systems in place where they have goals, and they have somebody holding everyone on their team accountable to those goals. And I'm gonna say the opposite of that now. And when I think of those customers, I have a rosy and optimistic outlook for California agriculture. Unfortunately, they're the minority. Majority of farming operations they have, I mean, it sounds really harsh to say this, I wonder if I should say it on record. But I think it's true. From my experiences working in ag, the majority of farming operations, they have too many ad hoc processes. You know, too many things, too many responsibilities, that should be corporate initiatives pushed down on their individual ranch manager. And the ranch manager is too busy trying to run the pumps and game the fertilizer out and getting the sprays done to actually be able to implement these things that are really important and much more bigger picture. And we have to stay ahead of these. Otherwise LA's gonna take all our water.
Craig Macmillan 29:34
So just to kind of summarize, having systems in place and having people that are responsible for executing those systems. So it's great to have a plan but unless you have some structure that's going to withstand the panic, right, that ensues during the growing season, then you're going to struggle.
Tom Shapland 29:53
Yes, and I'm sorry, I'm gonna keep soapboxing for a little bit here. That means that you can't put your ranch managers in charge of evaluating technology and what technologies are getting us which practices they're getting us because they're too busy. You gotta have somebody more senior, somebody at Lucas Pope's level in the organization to say, water is important at this company, pest management is important at this company. Here's how we're going to do it. And I'm going to hold you accountable all season long that you're getting this done.
Craig Macmillan 30:20
Yeah, I think the comparison to pest management is a good one. If you got field scouts that are quantifying and reporting back to maybe a head PCA or to a manager, that's very different than relying upon your tractor drivers to report when things look bad. And unfortunately, a lot of us don't have time or money or to organizationally address that. But if you can, that's going to be your best route for irrigation. And for other things. Lucas, what's the one thing you'd advise a grower regarding this irrigation scheduling?
Lucas Pope 30:47
Super interesting. Listen to Tom, on one thing, it's hard, paying attention to details is going to be your biggest asset. Spending the time I was struggling with the whole idea of something I want to do ages ago was make work orders like in a winery for irrigation, sprays, so that you hand someone a piece of paper, they have to sign off on the work being done. and report back to you see how to record of it.
Craig Macmillan 31:13
It's hard to do in farming, though, because it's a day to day morning of, you know, kind of thing. But yeah, I hear what you're saying. Yeah,
Lucas Pope 31:20
I mean, ultimately, we're always looking to the future instead of the past with the forecast and how hot it's going to be and how our well health is and how much water we have available to us in a reservoir or trying to look forward. And then also having really good people. And it's extremely difficult to find really good people. But when you build a team, and everybody's working towards the same goal, so from the top to the bottom, we all know the same goal, it becomes much easier to implement a plan of action.
Craig Macmillan 31:51
Well, this is interesting. We we're out of time, the one comment I want to make to kind of bring this all together is we started with technology, we ended up with people. And I think that that's a key bit of this business is the people part and how we apply things. I want to thank you both for being here. I guess it's been Tom Shapland, founder, Co-Founder and CEO of Tule Technologies and Lucas Pope, Director of Operations for Coastal Vineyard Services here in the central coast. Really fascinating conversation. I really appreciate you guys taking the time. Please visit our website for other podcasts and information and we hope that you will come back and take another listen to Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Thank you.
Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources.
I'm your host Craig Mcmillan. And with me today is Kristin Lowe, president of Vine Balance Consulting, and research coordinator for the Pierce's Disease Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board. Welcome, Kristin.
Kristin Lowe 0:12
Thank you so much for having me.
Craig Macmillan 0:13
First off, can you tell us what is the Pierce's Disease and Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board or the PDGWSS? As I want to call it from now on?
Kristin Lowe 0:21
Absolutely. So the PDGWSS Board is a group of California growers or grower producers. There's 14 board members and also one public member. And their primary goal is to make sure that all of the assessment funds that are received to the board go to the most promising research for our most challenging pests and diseases today. Those that are designated as important problems.
Craig Macmillan 0:48
And so the funding comes from an assessment.
Kristin Lowe 0:50
That is correct. So the assessment, I believe, on average is about $1.50 per $1,000 of grapes in terms of value .The most, the cap is at $3 per 1000 grapes in value. But yes, that's collected every year and has been so since the board started back in 2001.
Craig Macmillan 1:13
What led to the creation of the board?
Kristin Lowe 1:15
Pierce's Disease. So. Well, I think anyone who's looked into the history of Pierce's Disease, so this is a bacterial disease, endemic to California, not not necessarily new to California, right. But what was new to California was not only the establishment, but the fact that the Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter started thriving down in Southern California. That is the vector for Pierce's Disease. That insect exists in parts of Mexico and also parts of Florida and the Southeast US. But it got to California, and it started doing really well to the point that Pierce's disease started taking off. This led to a lot of sad looking pictures of dead vines, lots of concern over lost acreage, and this would be during the late 1990s or so. And in response to this, industry leaders from all different groups came together. A combination of industry USDA, UC California researchers, CDFA, to create the Pierce's Disease Control Program. And that's got many facets, but one of it is the PDGWSS Board, which whose mission is to fund the most important research to combat Pierce's Disease, Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter and all the other pests that they've designated in their RFP.
Craig Macmillan 2:31
Yeah. And so the the mission is expanded now beyond just Glassy-Wing to a number of other invasive pests that correct?
Kristin Lowe 2:37
Yeah, it has it has. And there's, there's a clear path for that. And I think what really blew that open was the European Grapevine Moth. So another invasive pest species that showed up, oh, gosh, and I think that was somewhere around 2011 or so maybe a little bit before, but agriculture always has a new bad guy. And so we needed a way for the for the PDGWSS board to, you know, expand what it was going to fund in terms of research to deal with new problems and, and continuing ones that keep coming back.
Craig Macmillan 3:08
So what exactly is your role with the board?
Kristin Lowe 3:11
Sure. So, they put out a call for proposals for a research coordinator last year, and I got the job, very excited. And so my goal is to kind of basically help guide the program to make sure that what we're funding is really on point to, to our goal, on point to making sure that the research is heading in the right direction, it's we get continual progress, and is also able to collaborate with, you know, get foster collaboration with other agencies, we have this general sense that we've been going since 2001. And there's been a lot of really great research going on for Pierce's Disease. These days, our problems might be different. And so the RFP expanded, also to include grapevine viruses. And those seem to be a real multi headed monster, for the industry for many levels. So I think that while my overall goal is just to make sure that the research funding program is focused and relevant, we're starting to look a lot more closely at visruses.
Craig Macmillan 4:20
And RFPs is Request for Proposals?
Kristin Lowe 4:22
Correct RFP is the request for proposals.
Craig Macmillan 4:25
Okay, so academics, scientists, will write up a proposal of what they want to do research wise, and they bring it to the board, and the board, evaluates them and decides, hey, would give some money to this, we'll give some money to that.
Kristin Lowe 4:39
Yes, absolutely. So we coordinate with other funding agencies and for the wine industry and actually for the whole wine and grape industry, not just in California, but in Oregon as well. And we all put out a request for proposals on the same date, December 1. And that after a couple months that closes and we look atthe proposals and they go through the PDGWSS Board, they go through scientific review, pretty stringent scientific review, and then also our research screening panel process. And ultimately, the Board makes the final decision on what gets funded within that year.
Craig Macmillan 5:14
Cool. So tell us about some of these projects. I mean, it's been 20 years. What's happened? What are some of the ones that you are excited about? Or remember are really proud of?
Kristin Lowe 5:23
Yeah, oh, there's so many. And I am I am so nervous about like glossing over things or missing details that I'm going to take this opportunity to tell everybody that there's some great resources on our website that you can, that you can look at to get more details. And that is cdfa.ca.gov/PDCP/research. And on there you can look at, there's a document that says projects at a glance, just great layman's layman person summaries of all of the research has been going on. There's our entire research symposium proceedings, and some recordings as well of
Craig Macmillan 6:05
Yes,
Kristin Lowe 6:06
... recent one. So, you know, because this is public assessment money, this information should be available to everyone in the industry. So we work really hard to keep that website updated.
Craig Macmillan 6:16
And we will have links to all of those on the page.
Kristin Lowe 6:19
Okay, cool. Cool. Cool. Okay, so some science.
Craig Macmillan 6:23
Yes!
Kristin Lowe 6:23
Have you heard Dr. Steve Lindow talk about his work on Paraburkholderia?
Craig Macmillan 6:29
No, I haven't.
Kristin Lowe 6:31
You haven't? I thought he I thought he presented at this Sustainable Ag Expo a few years ago, but maybe I'm mistaken.
Craig Macmillan 6:37
No, he may have been I may not have been there.
Kristin Lowe 6:40
Yeah, yeah. So Dr. Steve Lindow, is at UC Davis. And he made a crazy exciting discovery, there is a endophytic bacteria called Paraburkholderia phytofirmans, I'll just call it like, Paraburkholderia. That's enough of a mouthful.
Craig Macmillan 6:57
That's enough, yeah.
Kristin Lowe 6:58
And it inhibits the movement of xylella fastidiosa. So of the Pierce's Disease controlling or the organism responsible for Pierce's Disease, within the vine. So this endophytic bacteria, if you put it in the vine, at the same time, that's Xylella, in there, it not only moves throughout the vine, so it becomes systemic, but it inhibits the movement of the pathogen. So this is kind of huge. This species has been looked at before for for other reasons. But what this basically is, we're hoping that it leads to, is an infield treatment with an endophytic bacteria. So his work has involved figuring out, first of all the mechanism. But second of all, the practical aspect of this, which is what I love about it. It seems to work best when the two organisms are there together. So there's a timing of you know, do we pre inoculate with endophytic bacteria, and then it gets Xylella. That works. Or if a vine has been infected with Xylella, and then you are able to treat it with a Paraburkholderia. It also helps to not only the reduce the Xylella count, but reduce symptoms.
Craig Macmillan 8:14
How do you introduce it this thing into the vine?
Kristin Lowe 8:18
Oh, right. Yeah, first of all, with a pinprick basically. So an inoculation, I don't think everyone out there is going to want to go through and inoculate every vine. So they are working on a sprayable formulation. And to be able to actually get that into the vine, as well. And it seems to work with certain types of surfactants. So that's kind of where that technology is at is, you know, how do we create, you know, how do we create a usable product with it? What's going to work the best in the field? What's, what's the most practical in terms of rate, and timing? And in getting the endophytic bacteria into the vines?
Craig Macmillan 8:54
That's, that's amazing. That's definitely amazing. Endophytic bacteria is something that lives inside the plant.
Kristin Lowe 9:00
Yes, it is naturally there, there are 1000s of them and 1000s have been tried to see if they first of all actually move throughout the plant rather than in just the place that you found them. And second, if they are going to work against any sort of pathogens. Yeah, an amazing discovery and work that's been going on for for years and is I believe, is finally in the stages of getting to field trials and seeing how it would work. But imagine if you could go out to your block that you know is going to get pressure every year and think that you could decrease that pressure with with a spray. Never, I mean PD kills vines, that's huge. And in areas with constant pressure, it kills just more and more every year. So to have that sort of infield treatment is pretty exciting.
Craig Macmillan 9:45
Is this the kind of project that would receive funding over many years or multiple years from the board?
Kristin Lowe 9:49
Absolutely. And I don't remember when it first started. Definitely preceded my time there, but I think I've been following it since at least 2016.
Craig Macmillan 9:52
Oh, wow. Okay.
Kristin Lowe 9:52
No, it takes time from you know, discovery not only to making sure it's going to work, and then and then there's all this stuff after to get it actually implemented. But most of these projects that are going to result in a long term sustainable solution, or long term projects, you need years of data to make sure that they're gonna work.
Craig Macmillan 10:17
Science takes time.
Kristin Lowe 10:19
It takes time. I know, we're always impatient about that. But it does definitely take time.
Craig Macmillan 10:25
And support.
Kristin Lowe 10:26
Yeah, yeah.
Craig Macmillan 10:27
What's, what's something else that you're excited about?
Kristin Lowe 10:30
Okay, another one that's pretty exciting and groundbreaking is work by Dr. David Tricoli. And he's at the UC Davis Plant Transformation Facility. Have you heard of him at all?
Craig Macmillan 10:42
No, no.
Kristin Lowe 10:43
Okay. So he's doing has done something that might sound simple, but it opens up a wealth of options for future research. He's developed a cell culture method for regenerating a grapevine from a cell Protoplast. So you might remember back from biology, major differences between animals and plants. Plants are surrounded by a cell wall, animal cells, plant cells. Animal cells are not. When some of the like gene editing technology is coming out that's happening in animal cells, it's a lot easier to do, because they don't have the cell wall. Previous to this work, no one's been able to regenerate a grapevine from just a Protoplast. Without a cell wall. What this work has done is enabled there to be a platform of getting a group of grape cells together, just their protoplasts without the cell wall, onto which you could potentially do CRISPR Cas9, or some of the other fast developing gene editing techniques that are out there.
Craig Macmillan 11:45
This this is a technology I've heard repeatedly, and I'm I have no idea what the acronym stands for. And I'm not really sure I understand what it does. So what is CRISPR? Yeah,
Kristin Lowe 11:55
and I'm not going to tell you exactly what the acronym stands for either. To me, but so Cas9 is is a gene editing technology that allows for very, very precise small changes in a gene or in a genome. Ultimately, when done for plants by multiple steps later, it can result in a plant that's retained this small edit, but has absolutely no foreign DNA. And unlike a traditional GMO, that would have external DNA from a plasmid or from some other plant, this one is I can kind of think of it as like a lucky or benevolent mutation occurred. And you can't tell but it was purposeful. And and the result is a different phenotype that, that you can see. CRISPR-Cas9 gene editing is it's been out there for a number of years now. But it's taken time for everyone to develop different platforms for which it could work. For plants, especially for plants that are always regenerated by cuttings. So we don't do crosses to get new grapes, we take cuttings, we need a platform to possibly be able to do this. What this work has done is developed that platform. Where it could go it completely depends you need to you need to know which you know which genes to edit, which ones are going to reduce, are going to result in a phenotype. Obviously, what's fascinating, or what's most interesting to me is disease resistance that's usually complex multigenic. So we're still a ways down there from coming up with a with a solution. But the fact that the platform was developed, was actually a major breakthrough.
Craig Macmillan 13:35
That's phenomenal. So that's research that was done. It's gonna open the door for new research?
Kristin Lowe 13:40
Potentially, exactly. I mean, you can hear about CRISPR-Cas9 and the news happening to everything else, but but not the crop you're interested in until someone figures out that they're all different. Right?
Craig Macmillan 13:52
Right, right. What, is their other pests that have come into the catalogue that you think are interesting in that people are doing interesting work on?
Kristin Lowe 13:59
Our most recent designated past is the Spotted Lantern Fly, we do not have that one yet. Depending on who you ask it seems inevitable that's making its way steadily west from Pennsylvania. And so that's one that the Board and has its eye on for for sure. But we don't have it yet, but we're accepting proposals for it. Because we're trying to be ready. It's actually pretty rare that you can eradicate a, an invasive pest. The fact that California did it with a European Grapevine Moth is it is an amazing example. What's next right? Yeah, so Spotted Lantern Fly is probably next on our horizon is being something that would certainly be problematic if it got here, and you know, trying to stay ahead about research to understand how it would and could be controlled.
Craig Macmillan 14:52
Does the does the board fund research in states other than Oregon and California?
Kristin Lowe 14:56
The board funds researchers. So we do have PIs from from out of state and from not from the West Coast. Absolutely. The Board funds projects, obviously, they have to have some applicability to what we're, what our problems are and what we're concerned with. But yeah, there's no real state, state by state guideline.
Craig Macmillan 15:16
Right. Right. Right. Well, you know, you mentioned the review process. I just want to shift gears to that. What are the boxes that need to be checked or the hurdles that need to be cleared to get a project funded? What are the what are the criteria that the board and the written in the reviewers are looking for?
Kristin Lowe 15:31
Oh, sure. Well, I believe it's even just out there when we send up the call for proposals. But it just basically has to be really good science. It needs to be well, you know, well justified that there's either preliminary data or an excellent premise from a different crop. Or another reason why this idea would work. There have to be sound and detailed materials and methods that are laid out there has to be good experimental design, especially when you get to the field level, right, proper controls, proper replication, the stats will have to work, right, all of those things, the budget needs to be reasonable, all those sorts of things for sure.
Craig Macmillan 16:09
Which reminds me how much money is available each year?
Kristin Lowe 16:12
It varies. So it will it will depend on on the assessment. And I'm not the numbers person, I'm more the idea person. But I yeah, I have something that could find a figure for you for later. But I think over the 20 years, I believe I read that we have had up to somewhere between 60 and 70 million. But that's not all straight for research. It also goes to the Person's Disease control program treatments for battling Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter outbreaks and some of those control.
Craig Macmillan 16:44
So what is the one thing related to this that you would recommend to our listeners? How can we how can we help?
Kristin Lowe 16:51
Oh, that's a great question. How can you help. Well, stay stay engaged. Make sure that everyone all the way up the chain knows what your problems are. And and what, you know what what you really need. This is grower money, that for this particular funding program, there are other agencies out there that are simply donation only, not for profit. But I would say, so this is assessment money so it's a little bit unique. But I would say in general, your problems are not unique. And, I mean, we all we're all dealing with some of the same problems. And we have to come together as an industry to, you know, industry to help solve them. A, stay informed, work with researchers. One of the hardest things is for researchers to find field trials or fields that will let them come do some experimentation. They're always looking for industry partners, as sources of sick vines, helping to track patterns, helping to try new technology, just to collect data. Collaborators like that are always needed.
Craig Macmillan 17:57
I think that's some great encouragement. I think that's a great message. Don't be afraid to be a collaborator.
Kristin Lowe 18:01
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It gives you kind of a seat at the table. And researchers aren't growers. And so we need to have this kind of constant communication for there to be good outreach of what they found, to make sure it's applicable and that everyone understands it and and will adopt it too. The most frustrating thing is if something comes out, and people are slow to adopt it, even though it works. So staying informed about what's current, and what are what are new, good ideas.
Craig Macmillan 18:27
I think that's important. So pay attention.
Kristin Lowe 18:30
Yeah, get out there to grow our meetings and and industry meetings. And, yeah, a lot of these researchers do try very hard to do outreach. They hear you if you're if you're there and are showing up for the conversation.
Craig Macmillan 18:43
If I wanted to be a collaborator, how can I make myself available?
Kristin Lowe 18:46
Oh, gosh, that's a good question. Well, first of all, you would need to know what was going on. So you would need to need to, you know, go to meetings, listen to these people talk, you know, decide if you have similar problems. Almost all of them pass up their email and say, Look, yeah, I've got a place where I've got this, this issue going on. I've you know, been dealing with virus or I've been near dealing with Pierce's Disease. And do you need a field? You know, do you need data set? Some sort of field data or collaboration or a field site? Yeah.
Craig Macmillan 19:16
Well, that's fantastic. That's great advice. Where can people find out more about you?
Kristin Lowe 19:21
Oh, me personally? Okay, well, sure. I've been I started a consulting company almost 10 years ago, and my website is vinebalancedconsulting.com. I am largely based out of the Napa-Sonoma area, and keep in my toe in the research world because it's exciting. And viticulture is a science. That's one reason why I love it.
Craig Macmillan 19:44
It's nice to talk somebody loves science. Yeah. I love talking about science. It's so much fun. Well, I think it's time today I want to thank Kristin Lowe, who is the Research Coordinator for the Pierces Disease/Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board and President of Vine Balance Consulting. Check out the website we'll have links and notes of where to go and we look forward to talking to you again.
Kristin Lowe 20:08
You're most welcome. Thank you for the opportunity. Have a great growing season.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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