Ruminations – Details, episodes & analysis

Regenerative Business and Living Systems Design with Tre Cates

In this episode of Ruminations, host Bobby Gill delves into regenerative business practices with Tre Cates, founder of nRhythm. They explore the concepts of living systems design, organizational health, and the distinction between managing complexity versus control. Cates shares his experiences from working with the Savory Institute, the development of the Savory Hub model, and the transformation of businesses by applying regenerative principles. This episode offers deep insights into creating resilient and thriving organizations by focusing on the interconnectedness of people, processes, and the environment.

Tre Cates is the founder of nRhythm, a consulting firm helping organizations around the world design systems that align with the principles of life itself—complexity, emergence, resilience, and interconnectedness.

In this episode of @SavoryInstitute’s Ruminations podcast, Tre joins us to explore:

- What It Means to Design a Regenerative Organization - The Difference Between Complicated and Complex Systems (and -- Why It Matters) - How Businesses Can Create the Conditions for Life, Not Just Profit

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TIME STAMPS:

00:35 Meet Tre Cates: Founder of nRhythm

01:18 Savory Institute and Holistic Management

01:39 Exploring Complexity and Leadership

02:12 Sponsor Message: Savory Journey Giveaway

04:15 Conversation with Tre Cates Begins

05:42 Understanding the Cartesian Split

08:38 Complexity in Agriculture and Beyond

16:54 Managing Complexity vs. Control

28:27 Patterns and Principles of Living Systems

32:09 nRhythm's Approach to Regenerative Organizations

43:27 Foundational Beliefs and Operational Identity

44:52 Monitoring Health and Emergence

51:20 Understanding Governance Structures

53:00 Creating Conditions for Success

55:42 Monitoring for Emergence

56:55 Embracing Emergence in Organizations

01:11:34 Case Study: Transforming a Boutique Firm

01:18:44 The Savory Hub Network and Decentralization

01:26:13 Influential Thinkers and Schools of Thought

01:33:19 Future Patterns and Societal Shifts

01:44:00 Final Thoughts and Call to Action

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through holistic management. Join today for just $10/month and help regenerate 400+ acres every year:  https://savory.global/member

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MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

• nRhythm • Savory Institute • Holistic Management

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LinkedIn: Savory Institute

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In this episode of the Ruminations podcast, host Bobby Gill is joined by Dr. Paige Stanley from Colorado State University to dive deep into the science of soil health on grazing lands. They explore the latest research on carbon sequestration in arid and semi-arid rangelands, discuss the significance of different types of organic matter in carbon permanence, and introduce a new framework for understanding how grazing management affects soil carbon accumulation. The conversation also touches on the mental models of holistic managers and the potential of regenerative grazing to mitigate climate change. Tune in to learn more about Dr. Stanley's interdisciplinary approach and groundbreaking work in rangeland ecosystems.

Dr. Paige Stanley is an interdisciplinary scientist at Colorado State University, exploring how regenerative grazing can unlock soil’s carbon-storing potential and foster climate resilience.

In this episode of @SavoryInstitute’s Ruminations podcast, Dr. Stanley joins us to explore:

- How Regenerative Grazing Affects Soil Carbon in Arid Rangelands - Adaptive Multi-Paddock Grazing vs. Holistic Management - New Research That Challenges Carbon Saturation Myths

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ALL EPISODES: https://savory.global/podcast

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TIME STAMPS:

00:55 Introducing Dr. Paige Stanley

03:55 Dr. Stanley's Research on AMP Grazing

08:01 Understanding Soil Carbon Dynamics

13:27 Challenges in Soil Carbon Research

21:42 Exploring Soil Texture and Carbon Sequestration

28:37 Adaptive Multi-Paddock Grazing vs. Holistic Management

32:44 Ruminating on Soil Carbon: A New Framework

39:23 Upcoming Savory Journey to Zimbabwe

39:55 Earth Day Giveaway Details

40:53 Understanding Grazing Categories

44:30 Mechanisms of Under and Overgrazing

50:37 Challenges in Soil Carbon Research

56:19 Feasibility of Soil Carbon Measurement for Ranchers

01:04:20 Technological Advances in Soil Science

01:10:51 Holistic Management and Adaptive Grazing

01:18:43 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community making real change possible on over 100 million acres. Join for just $10/month and help restore 400+ acres every year: https://savory.global/member

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In the inaugural episode of the Ruminations podcast, host Bobby Gill sits down with Allan Savory, the renowned founder of Holistic Management and the Savory Institute. The conversation explores Allan’s adventurous beginnings as a young game ranger in southern Africa, his time in military leadership, politics, and ecological research—all unfolding during a transformative period in global history.

This episode highlights how a unique convergence of circumstances—colonial collapse, ecological degradation, and Allan’s cross-disciplinary career—created the conditions for the development of Holistic Management. Allan shares how insights from tracking, land stewardship, and systems thinking challenged conventional science and laid the foundation for a groundbreaking framework that has since changed the way we understand and manage complexity in agriculture.

We also get a preview of Allan’s forthcoming memoir, which captures the rich backstory behind one of the most influential ecological movements of our time.

In this premiere episode of @SavoryInstitute’s Ruminations podcast, Allan joins host Bobby Gill to reflect on:

- How a Young Game Ranger Became a Global Voice for Regeneration - The Birth of Holistic Management Amidst Colonial Collapse, War & Wildlife - Why Solving Desertification Requires More Than Just Science

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ALL EPISODES: https://savory.global/podcast

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TIME STAMPS:

00:09 Allan Savory's Early Adventures

01:31 The Birth of Holistic Management

02:03 Allan's Memoir and Life Reflections

02:37 A Peek into Allan's Study

04:30 Diverse Career and Early Influences

09:25 Challenges and Insights in Wildlife Management

12:40 The Concept of Holistic Management

27:48 Contributions of Jan Smuts and André Voisin

47:03 Military Influence on Holistic Planning

51:53 Introduction to Holistic Management

53:43 The Importance of Livestock in Holistic Grazing

56:39 The Influence of John Acox

01:06:41 Early Career and Wildlife Passion

01:16:17 Tracking and Ecology Insights

01:23:52 Advanced Tracking Techniques

01:32:18 Connecting Ecology and Wildlife Management

01:33:30 The Hippo in the Swamp

01:41:28 The Monkwala Talisman

01:47:38 Rhodesian History and Ian Smith

01:53:18 Racial Tensions and Personal Growth

02:08:32 The Controversy of Elephant Culling

02:14:03 Holistic Management and Future Hopes

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through holistic management. Join today for just $10/month and help regenerate 400+ acres every year: https://savory.global/member

Want to sponsor an episode?  https://savory.global/podcast

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MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

• Savory Institute
• Allan Savory's memoir
• Holistic Management Textbook
• Voisin’s Rational Grazing
• Diffusion of Innovations – Everett Rogers

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FIND US ON SOCIAL:

• YouTube: @SavoryInstitute • Instagram: @savoryinstitute • LinkedIn: Savory Institute

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In the premiere episode of the Savory Institute's new podcast 'Ruminations', host Bobby Gill, the Director of Development and Communications, introduces the series. He shares his journey to the Savory Institute, the mission to regenerate global grasslands through holistic management, and the broad range of topics and guests the podcast will cover. Bobby highlights the diverse and rich network behind the Savory Institute, including regional learning hubs, educators, and their land monitoring protocol. He emphasizes the podcast's goal to tell the stories of people making real change in regenerative agriculture and beyond, hoping to inspire and educate listeners from all backgrounds.  

ALL EPISODES: https://savory.global/podcast

JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS: https://savory.global/member

GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE: https://savory.global/find-your-path

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through holistic management. Join today for just $10/month and help regenerate 400+ acres every year: https://savory.global/member

Want to sponsor an episode?  https://savory.global/podcast

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FIND US ON SOCIAL:

• YouTube: @SavoryInstitute • Instagram: @savoryinstitute • LinkedIn: Savory Institute

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In this episode of Ruminations, we’re joined by Paul and Phyllis Van Amburgh of Dharma Lea—a 100% grass-fed, holistically managed dairy in upstate New York. They share their unlikely journey from first-time conventional dairy farmers to nationally recognized leaders in regenerative agriculture. What changed everything? Holistic Management.

We get into the weeds of what that transition really looked like—from the tough decisions and mindset shifts to the practical changes on the ground. By moving from rotational to holistic planned grazing, they extended their grazing season by 120%, slashed feed costs, and brought herd health to a whole new level—cutting mastitis rates from 73% to just 3%.

But their impact didn’t stop at the farm gate. Paul and Phyllis helped build the supply chain for Maple Hill Creamery, guiding over 125 farms in making the leap to grass-fed. Today, they mentor fellow farmers who want to build operations that are ecologically sound, financially viable, and deeply rooted in values.

This is a candid, practical, and inspiring conversation about what it really takes to go regenerative—and why it’s worth it.

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TIME STAMPS:

[5:33] Life on the farm  

[13:00] Why they built a family-run business  

[26:41] Getting into farming  

[37:24] Unlearning old business habits  

[43:40] Grass-fed vs grain-fed: financial insights  

[57:55] Transition to 100% grass-fed dairy  

[58:00] Managing yield drag & system change  

[1:04:33] Improving soil health  

[1:07:29] Understanding forage & nutrition  

[1:16:38] From utilization to recovery mindset  

[1:32:21] Planned vs rotational grazing  

[1:39:09] Advice for transitioning farmers  

[1:47:07] What changed slowly over time  

[1:52:11] Visiting Dimbangombe in Zimbabwe  

[1:59:32] Future of regenerative agriculture

[2:10:21] Closing

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This episode is brought to you by Savory Institute’s Regenerating Members, a global community committed to restoring grasslands. Learn more and join for just $10/month at 👉 https://savory.global/member

Want to sponsor an episode? [sponsorship link]

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MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

• Dharma Lea Dairy
• Maple Hill Creamery
• Less Stress, More Grass Case Study
• Africa Centre for Holistic Management
• Savory’s Earth Day Giveaway

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FIND US ON SOCIAL:

YouTube: @SavoryInstitute Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/

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Beth Robinette is a fourth-generation cattle rancher, educator, and co-founder of New Cowgirl Camp (https://www.newcowgirlcamp.com/) who joins the podcast to talk about what it really means to build a more inclusive, resilient future for agriculture.   From her roots on the Lazy R Ranch in Washington’s channeled scablands to her work leading education at UVE (a Savory Hub covering the Intermountain West region of the US), Beth shares how she’s blending business, ecology, and equity to reimagine land stewardship.   The discussion covers being a second-generation Holistic Management practitioner, why creating a safe environment is essential to learning, and how cultural restoration—like digging camas with Salish youth—can deepen our relationship with the land. This is a powerful conversation about leadership, belonging, and making space for new voices in ranching.  

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ALL EPISODES: 👉 https://savory.global/podcast

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TIME STAMPS: [03:25] Beth's Family Ranching History [06:43] Transition to Holistic Management [10:59] Beth's Personal Journey and Education [15:32] Challenges and Insights in Ranching [21:32] New Cowgirl Camp: Empowering Women in Ranching [27:15] Community Building and Future of Agriculture [50:09] Savory Institute and Global Impact [55:12] Hunters of Color and Reciprocal Goodness [58:07] Diverse Backgrounds and Good Food [58:38] Relearning Land History [01:01:05[ Indigenous Land Management [01:04:41[ Collaboration with Salish School [01:16:33] Challenges and Adaptations in Land Management [01:35:46] Future Vision and Community Building  

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This episode is brought to you by Savory Institute’s Regenerating Members, a global community committed to restoring grasslands. Learn more and join for just $10/month at 👉 https://savory.global/member

Want to sponsor an episode? 

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MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

• Lazy R Ranch

• New Cowgirl Camp

• Roots of Resilience

• Salish School of Spokane

• UVE - Intermountain West Savory Hub

• Savory’s Earth Day Giveaway

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FIND US ON SOCIAL:

YouTube: @SavoryInstitute Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/

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In this episode of Ruminations, we sit down with registered dietician and author Diana Rodgers to discuss her recent peer-reviewed paper on the nutritional benefits of animal-sourced foods. We delve into the challenges and biases she faced in getting her research published and break down common misconceptions about meat consumption. The conversation covers detailed nutritional information, the importance of protein, iron, zinc, B12, and the environmental and ethical aspects of meat production. Additionally, Diana shares her personal journey and announces her shift towards a new chapter in life centered around art and community.

+++ ALL EPISODES: 👉 https://savory.global/podcast JOIN THE COMMUNITY + GET MEMBERS-ONLY PERKS: 👉 https://savory.global/member GET INVOLVED WITH SAVORY INSTITUTE: 👉 https://savory.global/find-your-path +++ TIME STAMPS:

00:00 Intro

05:25 Challenges in Nutrition and Dietetics

14:32 Understanding Scientific Studies

23:56 Nutritional Benefits of Red Meat

33:59 Protein Intake and Dietary Recommendations

45:10 Exploring Protein Needs for Older Adults

46:31 Challenges in Publishing Nutrition Research

48:12 Historical Roots of Anti-Meat Bias

54:30 Nutritional Benefits of Red Meat

01:04:50 Debunking Anti-Meat Arguments

01:18:23 Advice for Vegetarians and Vegans

01:23:28 Transitioning to a New Chapter

01:27:10 Final Thoughts and Resources

+++ This episode is brought to you by Savory Institute’s Regenerating Members, a global community committed to restoring grasslands. Learn more and join for just $15/month at 👉 https://savory.global/member Want to sponsor an episode? +++ MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

• Considering the Nutritional Benefits and Health Implications of Red Meat in the Era of Meatless Initiatives – https://doi.org/10.3389/fnut.2025.1525011
• Sacred Cow documentary – https://youtu.be/hjyBUk6AQ1M?si=Y6ZvTnkeMcibbXmg
• Sacred Cow (book) by Diana Rodgers & Robb Wolf – https://savory.global/science_library/sacred-cow-the-case-for-better-meat/
• Dr. Gabrielle Lyon – https://drgabriellelyon.com
• Olivia Robertson Moe – https://www.instagram.com/revolveprimalhealth/
• Rachel Paul (The College Nutritionist) – https://www.drrachelpaul.com/

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Stay in Touch with Diana

sustainabledish.com @sustainabledish

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In this episode we're joined by Pablo Borelli, co-founder of Ovis 21, the Savory Hub in Argentina. With a background in agronomy and extensive experience in Holistic Management, Pablo shares insights on how Ovis 21 has impacted over 26 million hectares and trained over 5,000 people in Holistic Management over the last decade. The conversation explores Pablo’s journey, the underlying principles and key insights of Holistic Management, and the transformative effects it has had on Patagonian grasslands and livestock management. Plus, dive into case studies and real-world applications that highlight the importance of planned grazing, recovery periods, and the ecological benefits of regenerative agriculture.

 

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00:00 Intro

04:35 Challenges and Innovations in Holistic Management

10:05 Early Adoption and Training in Patagonia

26:39 Holistic Management Principles and Practices

39:57 Understanding Holistic Grazing Plans

40:20 Redefining Overgrazing

43:25 The Concept of Overresting

48:08 Four Key Insights of Holistic Management

50:29 Importance of Holistic Context

58:16 Holistic Planned Grazing Explained

01:04:39 Recovery Periods in Grazing Plans

01:11:53 Advice for New Holistic Managers

01:13:09 The Future of Regenerative Grazing

01:20:22 Final Thoughts

 

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through Holistic Management. For less than $1 per day, you can help regenerate 400+ acres every year: 👉 https://savory.global/member

 

Want to sponsor an episode? 👉 https://savory.global/podcast

 

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• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/

 

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Music written & performed by https://www.youtube.com/@travismcnamara9313

In this episode of Ruminations, we dig into the legislative soil beneath America’s regenerative agriculture movement with Aria McLauchlan, co-founder and executive director of LandCore. Aria brings a rare insider’s view of how soil health is making its way into federal and state policy—often against the odds.

 

We explore how LandCore is reshaping the policy landscape by working alongside USDA, legislators, producers, and investors to mainstream soil health as a critical lever for economic resilience, food security, and climate action. You’ll hear about their groundbreaking risk modeling tools, the Soil Health Bill Tracker, and what it actually takes to get meaningful policy passed in a system designed for the status quo.

 

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00:00 Intro

03:20 Welcome Aria

04:20 Aria's Journey into Policy

09:55 Founding LandCore: Mission and Goals

12:15 Economic Incentives for Farmers

16:48 Navigating Capitol Hill: Engaging Policymakers

24:51 Risk Mitigation and Soil Health

32:31 LandCore's Risk Modeling Tool

37:55 Challenges in Modeling Grazing Practices

42:05 Practice-Based vs. Outcomes-Based Approaches

44:27 LandCore's Policy Priorities

45:56 The Farm Bill

51:28 Engaging with Legislators

59:49 Broader Implications and Agencies Involved

01:04:59 Global Perspectives

01:08:33 Economic Case for Soil Health

01:22:18 Future of Soil Health Policy

01:28:20 Final Thoughts

 

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MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE:

– https://landcore.org/

– https://landcore.org/bill-tracker

– https://landcore.org/news-post/2024/05/02/land-core-risk-model-interactive-beta-tool

– https://landcore.org/news-post/public-comments-hhs-dietary-guidelines

– (BONUS) https://landcore.org/news-post/rooted-in-health-the-soil-and-human-health-connection

 

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through Holistic Management. For less than $1 per day, you can help regenerate 400+ acres every year: 👉 https://savory.global/member

 

Want to sponsor an episode? 👉 https://savory.global/podcast

 

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FIND US ON SOCIAL:

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/

 

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Music written & performed by Travis McNamara.

In this episode of Ruminations, we explore what it means to be in relationship with place—even while living a nomadic lifestyle. Our guest is Leon Bucher: Holistic Management educator, EOV Verifier, and one of five members of Savory’s Global Quality Assurance team for Ecological Outcome Verification (EOV).

Together, we unpack how EOV works—not just the mechanics, but the deeper meaning. Leon shares insights from years of walking land with producers across Europe, explaining how ecological indicators serve as feedback loops for better management. From baseline monitoring to five-year trend analysis, we look at what getting EOV actually involves for a farmer or rancher—and why, in Leon’s words, regeneration is ultimately about relationship.

 

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00:00 Intro

02:13 A German nomad lands in northern Sweden

09:54 Career shifts

26:28 Learn everything or just get started?

31:31 Why do ecological monitoring?

34:01 TAKE MORE PHOTOS!

39:37 Monitoring for marketplace differentiation

41:18 Regenerating Members

45:20 What is EOV?

50:41 Calibrating data by eco-region

57:07 How indicators correlate to ecosystem processes

01:00:08 Leon’s favorite ecological indicators

01:01:34 Engaging your senses in monitoring

01:08:35 Setting up EOV on your farm or ranch

01:17:34 Trendlines & comparing to reference sites

01:20:27 Walking through an EOV report

01:23:37 Quality Assurance review

01:34:29 “Regeneration is relationships”

01:39:51 Final Thoughts

 

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MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE:

– https://landregeneration.eu/en/ – https://savory.global/increasing-caring-capacity/ – https://youtu.be/-9b6nwJayqY?si=vL2drwUvy2UKPftM – https://www.anadolumera.com/en – https://natcapsolutions.org/product/purchaseafinerfuture/ – https://savory.global/eov/ – http://leonbucher.com/ – https://www.instagram.com/leon_regenerative_journeys/

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This episode is brought to you by Savory’s Regenerating Members, a global community restoring over 100 million acres through Holistic Management. For less than $1 per day, you can help regenerate 400+ acres every year: 👉 https://savory.global/member

 

Want to sponsor an episode? 👉 https://savory.global/podcast

 

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FIND US ON SOCIAL:

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/savoryinstitute
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/savory-institute/

 

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HAVE A GUEST SUGGESTION?

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Music written & performed by https://www.youtube.com/@travismcnamara9313