A podcast by 37signals about the better way to work and run your business. The REWORK podcast features the co-founders of 37signals (the makers of Basecamp and HEY), Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson sharing their unique perspective on business and entrepreneurship along with host Kimberly Rhodes.
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In software development, there are updates, and then there are complete overhauls. This week, Jason Fried joins Kimberly Rhodes to talk about how the team decides when it’s time to rebuild from the ground up. They dig into the transition between versions, how customer feedback fits in, and even drop a few hints about what’s coming in Basecamp 5.
Key Takeaways
00:10 – A walk through of Basecamp's evolution
03:00 – How to recognize when it’s time for a new version
05:52 – Pricing considerations
11:42 – There’s no perfect moment to ship a new version
13:16 – How and when to evaluate customer feedback
With the launch of Fizzy getting closer, 37signals co-founders Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson use this episode to answer listener questions about the upcoming product. They talk about how Fizzy and Basecamp will coexist, why aesthetic design choices matter, and which AI features are actually worth using.
Key Takeaways
00:11 – Fizzy and Basecamp, competitors or complementary?
02:00 – Finding the right tools that fit your workflow
Building with LLMs, Finding a Co-founder & Other Listener Questions
Season 2 · Episode 162
Wednesday, August 20, 2025 • Duration 25:54
Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson sit down with host Kimberly Rhodes to field a fresh round of listener questions. They share perspectives on when coding assistance makes sense, finding a co-founder to compliment your skills, business succession planning, and more.
Key Takeaways:
00:17 – When AI coding tools help vs. when they get in the way
05:44 – Does start-up success require a co-founder?
10:02 – Small business succession planning
15:46 – Honing the skill of coming up with new product ideas
21:41 – New ideas are often just solving existing problems
If you've been following the Rework podcast, you're undoubtedly acquainted with the concept of Shape Up, a cornerstone of 37signals' approach to product development.
In this episode, we delve into a core component of Shape Up: the delicate art of crafting a pitch.
Join Rework host Kimberly Rhodes as she sits down with 37signals founders, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson for a conversation encompassing everything from the essence and purpose of a pitch to the step-by-step process of constructing a finely tuned pitch.
Listen in as Jason and David walk listeners through Shape Up's five-point compass for an effective pitch: problem, appetite, solution, rabbit holes, and no-gos, plus insight on how to use “tracer bullets” to manage the balance between scope and execution while avoiding the pitfalls along the way.
[00:00] - Kimberly introduces listeners to Shape Up, and the topic of the day: "writing a pitch" for product development.
[00:34] - Jason shares what a pitch is and its purpose in product development.
[02:16] - David emphasizes a crucial counterpoint to common practices at most organizations, highlighting the two common pitfalls. [03:12] - Striking a balance: providing boundaries without stifling creativity.
[04:05] - The key innovation of a Shape Up and the importance of avoiding extremes of over-specification or vague one-liners in your pitch.
[05:44] - Jason shares who can write a pitch, and the distinction between throwing out ideas and formalized pitches.
Are You an Underdog? We want to hear from you!
Season 2 · Episode 71
Wednesday, August 23, 2023 • Duration 10:41
In this episode of Rework, host Kimberly Rhodes sits down with 37signals founders Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson to hear about the company's fondness for underdogs – small businesses that are scrappy, do more with less, and use creativity over big budgets.
If this sounds like you, we'd love to hear from you and just might have you on an episode of Rework to share your story. Plus, the lucky winner will get one year of Basecamp Pro Unlimited on us! Here's what you need to know:
Bugs are an inevitable part of complex software and aiming for complete bug-free perfection is not only unrealistic, but it hinders progress and product delivery.
In this episode of Rework, host Kimberly Rhodes sits down with 37signals founders, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson to discuss why you need to be realistic about bugs in software development.
Listen in as David and Jason offer a behind-the-scenes look at the two-tiered approach to handling bugs in their software at 37signals and their triage plan for determining which should be fixed, when, and by whom.
Tune in to uncover strategies to manage your customers' expectations while dealing with bugs WITHOUT deviating from your product roadmap
[00:00] - Kimberly opens the show and shares the topic for discussion, that bugs in software are normal.
[00:27] - David shares why you need to be realistic about bugs in software development.
[01:18] - Bugs, a natural side effect of software.
[02:08] - What makes users abandon a piece of software (hint: it’s usually not a few bugs)?
[05:26] - The two-tiered (non-emotional) approach to handling the vast spectrum of bugs in complicated pieces of software.
[06:13] - When is a “bug” not a “bug”?
[07:00] - Handling customer expectations without screwing up your product roadmap.
Rescuing A Project In Progress
Season 2 · Episode 69
Wednesday, August 2, 2023 • Duration 23:50
Knowing when you're in over your head and recognizing when a project has gone off the rails are crucial aspects of successful project management.
But what are the red flags to watch for to prevent project derailment and how can you tell if a project is doomed to fail—even before you start?
This week, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson, the co-founders of 37signals, sit down with host Kimberly Rhodes to discuss the challenges of project management and share valuable insights on how to stay focused, recognize red flags early on, and foster creative problem-solving in order to see a project through to completion.
Listen in as they reveal the importance of finishing tasks before adding new ones, the pitfalls of multitasking, and the magic of setting clear endpoints. Plus they share Basecamp's tool for facilitating project monitoring without time-consuming meetings or derailing check-ins.
Tune in for practical solutions for rescuing a project before it's too late!
[00:00] - Kimberly opens the show and the topic of how to rescue a project when it’s gone off of the rails.
[00:34] - Adding too much without finishing anything causes chaos. Jason shares the story behind his HEY World piece, Rescuing a project in progress, and shares the advice he gave his friend and how that applies to software development too.
[02:49] - David shares the reasons behind the approach at 37signals.
The Google Graveyard
Season 2 · Episode 68
Wednesday, July 26, 2023 • Duration 26:11
Unlike some tech giants that have notoriously pulled the plug on beloved products (remember Google's sudden discontinuation of Google Reader?), 37signals takes a vastly different approach with their pledge to support ALL of their products for the life of the internet.
This week host Kimberly Rhodes sits down with Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson, the co-founders of 37signals, to explore the importance of longevity and trust in the SaaS industry.
Drawing parallels to iconic brands like Porsche and Rolex, Jason and David take a deep dive into the challenges of product discontinuation and its impact on loyal customers. From Ta-da List to Basecamp, listen in as they reveal the principles that drive their support decisions and why longevity matters when building a brand that customers will rely on for decades.
[00:00] - Kimberly introduces the podcast and the topic of 37signals' core principle to maintain its products until the end of the internet.
[00:36] - David discusses the risk of relying on big companies for software services, sharing the recent example of Google killing off its domain selling service.
[02:06] - David explains why Google tends to abandon services leaving users to deal with the aftermath.
[03:50] - How to become a legacy brand—like Porsche.
[05:20] - David shares 37signal's philosophy to keep products running until the end of the internet (example: 17 years of maintaining Ta-da List).
[06:08] - Short-term profitability vs. long-term commitment to customers: The moral obligation (and trade-off) of maintaining legacy products.
Be Careful Who You Listen To
Season 2 · Episode 67
Wednesday, July 19, 2023 • Duration 24:17
In today's fast-paced information-saturated world, advice is abundant, but it can be difficult to determine which sources are truly reliable.
This week, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson, the co-founders of 37signals, join host Kimberly Rhodes to discuss the challenges of navigating the ever-growing sea of advice and how to choose the right guidance for your journey.
Listen in as they share their thoughts on the expiration date of advice, the dangers of following someone else's prescribed path, and the value of trusting your own instincts.
[00:00] - Kimberly opens the show and introduces listeners to the topic of finding reliable business advice in today’s digital age.
[00:40] - Jason shares why he wrote Advice Expiresand why he and David are the wrong people to ask for advice about starting a business.
[02:14] - David shares how the Internet's craving for content leads to conflicting advice and the value of trusting your own instincts.
[04:16] - Ignore more advice than you take: turning the tide on the trend of collecting mentors and seeking advice from multiple sources.
[05:04] - The value of being outside the Silicon Valley bubble.
[05:44] - The importance of cultivating originality.
[06:15] - The danger of following everyone else's formula for success.
[07:38] - How the "Pinterestization" of our culture is diluting originality in favor of popularity.
Leaving the Cloud: The Finale
Season 2 · Episode 66
Wednesday, July 12, 2023 • Duration 29:08
You’ve no doubt heard the 37signals team talking about leaving the cloud. Well, now the transition is complete!
In this episode of Rework, 37signals co-founder David Heinemeier Hansson and Director of Operations Eron Nicholson sit down with host Kimberly Rhodes to discuss the unexpected speed of the move, the decisions, the hurdles they faced, and the behind the scenes of the meticulous process of moving their major applications, including those that had never before been run outside the cloud.
Tune in as they share the secrets behind their successful approach and the unexpected trick that allowed them to tackle individual components without risking major disruptions. Plus, they address questions from listeners, covering topics such as backups, physical resets, and the future of their infrastructure.
Listen in for an eye-opening conversation that challenges the prevailing narratives of the cloud era and delves into the untapped potential of running your own infrastructure.
Show Notes:
[00:00] - Kimberly sits down with 37signals co-founder and CTO David Heinemeier Hansson, and director of operations, Eron Nicholson to discuss 37signals move away from the cloud.
[00:39] - David shares their surprise at the quick completion of the move and the challenges they faced in planning and technology decisions.
[01:26] - Out in six months: how the team, led by Eron, tackled the various aspects such as logging, failover, and managing two data centers while resolving numerous open questions along the way.
[03:06] - An opportunity to question existing principles and processes, resulting in a novel approach. It felt like a product launch!
[07:47] - David introduces listeners to the concept of "framing" before pitching.
[09:28] - Why it’s vital to distinguish between identifying a problem and crafting a pitch. [10:25] - Effective pitch creation requires contextual awareness to devise realistic solutions.
[11:46] - Pitched solutions are more about direction than detailed execution—the true execution and implementation are the responsibility of the assigned team.
[13:06] - Pitching is a powerful tool for attracting and nurturing independent decision-makers.
[14:54] - The magic of deferring decisions until the implementation stage. [15:46] - Pitching projects is a blend of autonomy, mastery, and purpose, aligning with Daniel Pink's principles of employee satisfaction.
[17:21] - Shape Up's five key details for making a pitch: problem, appetite, solution, rabbit holes, and no-gos.
[18:23] - Rabbit holes: tempting yet treacherous distractions that offer the illusion of progress. Why unveiling these traps early is essential.
[20:08] - David shares an example of a recent project using a time zone auto completer.
[21:15] - A "science project" - the macro version of a rabbit hole.
[22:41] - How a "tracer bullet" or "traceable" helps the 37signals team understand a project's feasibility and complexity leading through a small investment of information gathering.
[24:29] - Why a "tracer bullet is crucial for prioritizing projects, using an example of using a tracer to explore billing in other currencies and how it provided clarity on the project scope and timeline.
[25:40] - Next week's episode of Rework will focus on the "Betting Table" and how the decision-making process unfolds to choose which pitches to work on. In the meantime, don
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[07:52] - You need a filter: the double-edged sword of founders operating in customer support.
[08:32] - David shares a behind-the-scenes look triage at 37signals.
[09:31] - The novel QA approach of the Toyota production line that 37signals tries to emulate.
[11:37] - Jason shares the difference between the software and auto industries when fixing production problems.
[12:37] - Yes, quality matters, but perfect never gets shipped.
[14:30] - So how do we build useful, meaningful software?
[15:21] - Breaking out of bad bug thought patterns so you can keep making software of value.
[16:47] - Who oversees fixing the bugs at 37signals—the methods they use to determine what gets fixed, when, and by who.
[20:08] - Cleaning up the tech debt: the vital importance of a measured, mature way of scheduling things.
[21:09] - Don't create ****** software—it can’t be fixed.
[23:55] – Jason discusses the idea an organization might be a bigger problem than just a bug in the software.
[24:44] - Why you should never become "too big" to listen to your customers.
[26:28] – For more, check out our Dev.37signals blog, where the 37signals developers write about some of their processes.
[26:45] - Rework is a production of 37signals. You can find show notes and transcripts on our website. Full video episodes are also available on Twitter and YouTube. If you have questions for David and Jason about a better way to work and run your business, we’d love to answer them. Leave your voicemails at 708-628-7850 or send an email.
[03:44] - You can’t do two things at once, every time you do you lose a little bit…
[04:33] - Clearing the decks, wiping the slate clean, AND deciding what you are going to do with 100% of your time and how it helps you avoid shiny object syndrome.
[05:20] - Why it's crucial for successful project management to avoid adding new tasks until all the existing unfinished ones are completed.
[06:11] - How the magic of deciding when you’re done helps lower the risk of multitasking.
[08:53] - In software development how can you tell things are going off the rails before it’s way too late?
[09:17] - Jason shares why you need to be tuned into those feelings of being in over your head.
[10:43] - David shares the major red flag moment for him that lets him know you’ve already failed before you even get started.
[12:28] - “The longer, the more complicated the project, the more deceivingly specific people believe they can be when the opposite should actually be true.”
[13:17] - Why you should never give yourself too much time for a project.
[14:13] - The work-in-progress unified system in Denmark for tax assessments of properties that will never be finished (it’s already eight years overdue, and a billion dollars in).
[15:53] - The easiest time to stay on track for a project.
[16:29] - The other problem with long projects is that you get more time to not fix the problem.
[17:17] - The curse of too much time and the sweet spot of creative problem-solving for any endeavor.
[18:06] - X is the epicenter of the problem, start there and THEN see how much of Y and Z you get to before your (set in stone) ship deadline.
[19:37] - Kimberly shares some people’s approach to rescuing projects and the difference at 37signals.
[20:02] - Jason talks about the false sense of security that comes from knowing everything that’s going on.
[21:12] - David shares how “sawing at the wheel” just makes you go slower.
[21:57] - Are we done yet? Are we done? How constant interruptions slow projects down.
[22:42] - How Basecamp’s
[08:07] - Kimberly draws a parallel between the changing ownership of mortgages and software services.
[08:58] - Brand building through commitment and longevity.
[10:05] - Jason shares how 37signals prioritizes their commitment to customers with their core apps.
[12:16] - The challenge of balancing the desires of existing customers with the need to appeal to new customers.
[15:47] - The most profitable product in the 37signals portfolio.
[17:37] - Kimberly asks about the decision-making process between creating new versions of Basecamp versus adding features to the existing ones.
[18:02] - Some updates are like facelifts—others involve fundamental changes.
[20:20] - The costs involved in maintaining apps like Ta-da List.
[21:35] - David highlights the BIG return on investment in brand power that comes with the commitment to maintaining products.
[23:12] - How the murder of Google Reader still impacts users' trust in new Google products a decade later.
[24:06] - The high failure rate of venture-backed companies.
[23:48] - Did you know full video of episodes of Rework are available? Check out our YouTube channel or find us on Twitter. As always, if you have questions for David and Jason about a better way to work and run your business, we’d love to answer them. Leave your voicemails at 708-628-7850 or send an email. And don’t forget you can find show notes and transcripts on our website.
[09:48] - The mystery behind success—Jason shares why you must be mindful of blindly emulating successful companies or individuals.
[10:52] - David discusses the “Halo Effect” and how success in one aspect doesn't necessarily mean excellence in all areas.
[11:41] - The “awesomeness tradeoff”: how the book “Blue Ocean Strategy” puts a method to the idea that you can't be awesome at all the things all the time.
[13:12] - Kimberly raises the issue of self-proclaimed experts on the Internet.
[14:50] - The importance of a select set of core ideas or key values for more effective decision-making in a sea of options.
[16:13] -Trusting your gut and the pitfalls of seeking too much advice.
[17:13] - Kimberly asks Jason and David about their approach to seeking advice and executing decisions.
[17:35] - Jason shares his approach to seeking advice and what his method depends upon.
[19:04] - David shares his preference for seeking guidance from "dead people."
[20:03] - Reality as a mentor: the importance of contextualizing advice and learning through experimentation.
[21:44] - The role of criticality when seeking advice.
[22:08] - David shares why he continues to give advice and what people are really looking for.
[22:34] - How the book"Maverick"by Ricardo Semler influenced the unconventional ideas and served as a benchmark for determining the level of "bat-shitness" in Jason and David’s decisions when they were starting out.
[23:48] - Do you have ques
[05:04] - Eron reflects on the accelerated timeline and how the entire ops and SIP team worked towards the same goal.
[06:32] - How the criticality ladder approach allowed for smoother progress to more complex applications like Basecamp Classic.
[08:47] - Eron explains the logistics and the unexpected trick that helped the team tackle individual components without risking significant disruptions.
[10:52] - Moving HEY, 37signals most critical and complex app, that had never before been run outside the cloud.
[11:23] - Kimberly opens the floor to a few user questions from Twitter, the first one from Pedro: "Did your company buy or already own your own data centers, or are you renting space in existing data centers? Is that even an option?"
[11:50] - Running your own data center requires a gargantuan scale and enormous investment, but renting space in data centers makes it easy and capital-efficient.
[14:29] - Amnesia of the pre-cloud era: using data centers is more accessible than most people think.
[15:38] - Eron shares how to make the data centers work for you and your company.
[16:39] - Kimberly shares a question from Moshi on Twitter: "Congrats on the move. Before deciding to move, did you try negotiating with any of the large clouds?"
[16:54] - David shares their unique advantage in cloud pricing negotiations.
[19:46] - Why the cloud math doesn't work: the fundamental misalignment (and huge surprise costs) that led 37signals to leave the cloud and how running your own infrastructure makes those financial surprises disappear.
[21:11] - Kimberly shares a telling comment made by someone on David’s Twitter account.
[22:26] - How the cloud marketing campaign has successfully convinced people they're dumber than they really are.
[24:49] - "If you possess the know-how and resources, it absolutely makes sense to manage your own infrastructure." Eron shares the advantage that made the transition less daunting.
[25:32] - Kim
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