Real Job Talk – Details, episodes & analysis

A special episode: Liz and Kat are guests on the Truth, Lies, & Work Podcast, where they talked about difficult conversations at work. Check out this episode with Liz and Kat on Difficult Conversations at Work (https://link.chtbl.com/ovhKymhi), epsiode 137 of the Truth, Lies & Work podcast (https://truthliesandwork.com). Listen to the episode right here or listen to this bonus episode right here in your Real Job Talk feed. Episode notes Welcome to Truth, Lies & Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. Join hosts Leanne Elliott, chartered psychologist, and Al Elliott, business owner, as they help you simplify the science of work. In today’s episode, we’re tackling one of the most challenging aspects of workplace dynamics - having difficult conversations. We’re joined by two outstanding experts in the world of people and culture, Kathleen Troyer and Liz Bronson, co-hosts of the Real Job Talk podcast. Together, they share practical advice on how to handle conflict, polarizing topics, and tough discussions at work. Meet Our Guests: • Kathleen Troyer is the CEO and Lead Consultant at Jigsaw Solutions Inc., where she specializes in leadership development and business strategy. Known for helping leaders engage in uncomfortable but necessary conversations, Kat shares her insights on creating psychologically safe workplaces. • Liz Bronson, a Global Professional in Human Resources (GPHR), has dedicated her career to fostering inclusive and supportive company cultures. Her experience spans companies like Barclays Global Investors, VMware, and ThriveCart. Key Discussion Points: The Impact of External Events on Workplace Dynamics Kat and Liz discuss how global events like political upheavals, economic instability, and distressing news have forever altered how we interact in the workplace. How to Defuse Tension and Maintain a Positive Culture In today’s polarized world, workplace conflict is inevitable. Our guests explore how leaders can guide difficult conversations, focusing on empathy, transparency, and respect. Bringing Your Whole Self to Work Kat and Liz debate whether this is truly feasible in today's diverse workplaces and discuss the importance of creating inclusive environments where everyone feels they belong, regardless of differing opinions. Aligning Company Values with Employee Behavior Kat and Liz stress the importance of living company values, not just displaying them on a wall. When to Have the Uncomfortable Conversation Our guests provide practical advice on how to approach difficult conversations when tensions rise in the workplace.

We have a letter! A listener asks us what they should do if everything is just good. They’re restless: work is good, they make good money, have work/life balance, but they're wondering if this is it. Our listener’s name is “Restless” and we explore how they should approach this mid-career moment. First - everything is relative. The grass can be greener on someone else’s hill, but your grass may be really green to someone else. We tell Restless that they need to explore why they’re feeling this way. What is at the root of their restlessness? Is there something they want to achieve that they haven’t? In the meantime, we told Restless to seek out some new projects, find out what other teams are working on, and see if he could participate or at least listen in. Career mid-life crises are just as common as life mid-life crises. So, what do you do? Assess what’s going well and what you don’t want, and see if you can learn something new or push yourself in a new area to keep yourself moving. We stress that learning and staying on top of trends and technologies is always important and going on a learning mission will help them feel fresh and less stuck. We send Restless on a journey to understand their internal desires as well as an external exploration of what they aren’t doing. Start asking people - internally and externally - what they are working on, and see if you can join in - or at least observe to learn and expand your knowledge. By learning about what others are working on, we can be inspired and think of new things that are exciting. We also tell Restless that sometimes in life we are all in at work, and sometimes we are doing our job and focusing on other things. Restless says they have work/life balance. We tell them to really lean into that and go to the baseball game, or appreciate that family time. Restless’ life sounds pretty awesome: good pay, work/life balance, remote work, and interesting projects. We caution them to be careful when framing their restlessness so that they open a dialogue and not annoy people. It’s a pretty sweet situation and while we love the candor for us, they need to be really aware of their audience and approach the conversation from a place of curiosity vs complaining. We tell Restless to lean into gratitude as an antidote for complacency and to look at work as a part of a whole, rich life.

Liz and Kat Zoom in with Mpume Ncube-Daka all the way from South Africa to talk about change conversations. Mpume works with people to drive the best decisions in their growth and development. She is passionate about personal and professional development and learning through change. Mpume thought she’d be a doctor when she grew up, but realized she needed to change direction after a failed math class. She then became an accountant and has built a career on change. After laughing at humanities students in college, Mpume finds herself a student of people and passionate about psychology and human development. With careers in marketing, business strategy, accounting, and finance, she can see all sides of business problems and be able to connect with her clients. We ask Mpume about navigating workplace relationships - what advice does she give for navigating the modern workplace? She reminds us to take time to relate to people as human. Take out the noise and get to know someone as a human. Navigating a workplace culture is about navigating that company’s particular cultural nuances first. Once you understand that, you bring your authentic self into the space. First you want to observe how feedback is given and received- preferably at the interview- and see if it’s a place you want to work. We ask about navigating a full career change vs a just job change. The #1 thing is self-awareness. If you know yourself, you know what excites you, what you don’t want, and you want to do things that excite you and make you money. What skills and strengths do you have that are marketable? You may love to color, but it may not pay the mortgage. You don’t want to get all of the meaning of your life from work. We work to have the life that we want- all happiness can’t come from the workforce. Communicating effectively is a key skill to thrive in today’s work world. Mpume has ABCs of work communication. For her, #1 is interpersonal communication, which includes both verbal and non-verbal communication. We all want to be heard, no matter if someone agrees or not. If we feel heard and listened to we can work together. Be good at listening and giving the time to hear someone’s opinions. And it’s important to clarify that you heard the thing they were actually saying. They key to effective listening? Be present. Not checking email. Not checking Slack. Not prepping dinner. Clarify what they are saying to make sure you understand. We ask how do we stay present in today’s crazy world? Don’t make it about you. When it’s about understanding what the other person is saying, you can focus on their message. It comes to company culture- if everyone expects instant communication and people are Slacking during meetings, you’re not encouraging listening and being present. We ask for advice on behalf of our listeners who feel stuck in their career. Mpume wants you to look at what “stuck” looks like for you. Why do you feel stuck? Get to the bottom of why you’re feeling that way before you start to solve the problem. If you’re stuck, how do you getting out of the hole? Create goals to challenge yourself to get out of that space. Does being stuck feel different for women? Yes! Sometimes we need to make choices that work for us and what we want in our lives. That said, many women want to be super women and not drop anything, and we come at our situation from a guilt perspective. When we realize what we need and want and stop feeling guilty about what we aren’t doing, we find our power and our gratitude.

Today we’re talking about job abandonment -- something we’ve each seen a handful of times in our corporate careers. (Kat saw it more with people working in retail.) We want you to know what job abandonment is, how to avoid it, and what the ripple effect can be when someone abandons their job. What is job abandonment? Job abandonment is when you just disappear from work and nobody knows where you are for a certain period of time, even just a few days. It often leads to you losing your job. When someone doesn’t show up without any notice, management and HR starts asking around. Then they call, email, text, Slack, and try to get in touch with someone any way they can. HR gets involved when they resort to using personal and emergency contact info to get in touch. It’s a tough balance in trying to find the person and see that they are ok -- but you don’t want to set off too many alarm bells, just in case the whole thing was caused by a dead phone battery and an alarm not going off. At a point when the job abandonment is suspected, the authorities may be called to do a wellness check, hospitals may be called to see if someone’s there, and if someone knows the person’s kid’s school, the school may be called to see if the family is ok. Before letting someone go for job abandonment, management and HR will try to find them and make sure they are ok. Kat knew someone who just couldn’t deal with life and disconnected with their work. After trying to find them, the president of the company showed up at their house. Job abandonments are very stressful for managers and HR people, even when the person turns up OK.The worry that happens when someone disappears is very real, and companies want to avoid invoking their job abandonment policy. As the person who is managing your career, you do not want to be source of that stress and you want to be seen as responsible and reliable. If your company or manager doesn’t know that they can rely on you, your career in that role will be short-lived. And when you go to find your next job, it may be difficult to explain what happened if you simply burned your bridges and left. To avoid this, we have some tips to avoid noncommunication and miscomunication with your workplace when you really just can't come in. Someone you know will be aware if something is happening to you. Make sure they also have your manager’s contact info. You don’t have to tell work everything about your personal life, just what you need to communicate what to expect. For example, " need to go on medical leave" or "I need to take a week of personal leave." That's enough. Crazy concept: your company doesn’t pay you to not show up. BUT this has happened to other people before you, and because of that, the company likely has policies in place to support you if you can’t work. And your country may also have labor laws that cover this as well. You need to communicate enough to make sure that your job is protected. Don’t be the person who causes angst for others, and don’t have your decisions cause angst and disruption for your team or for coworkers depending on you. If you need time off, ask for it and take it. When people disappear from their job, projects get derailed, trust gets broken, the rumor mill goes nuts, and colleagues get overloaded. Don’t be the person who made this happen. Communicate, don't just ghost.

Welcome to Real Job Talk, Angela Loeb! We refer our clients who need their resumes done to Angela because she literally wrote the book(s) on resumes and job searching. Angela started out helping people to get into beauty school- she interviewed people and helped them get into classes. Angela got into recruiting by answering an online ad (a rarity!) and worked at an agency for many years until the 2009 recession. She wrote a book, conducted seminars, and hosted a radio show on “blog talk radio” on the job search process. We asked Angela about going out on her own vs working for agencies. Angela had a mentor who encouraged her to work from home and branch out beyond their agency. She started her business as a side gig (we highly recommend doing this first!) working with individuals until she realized that she could support herself with her own business. Angela helps people to brand themselves, write their resumes, and be able to tell their stories. You are marketing you, and you need to figure out your value proposition/branding statement. As a job seeker, you have to position yourself like a product. So how do you show resume readers what you can do for them? You think about what you mainly want _to do, and then highlight it with the rest of _what you can do sprinkled around the side. You want resume readers to see you how you want to be featured. If you start with your resume, it’s just an inventory of skills. If you lead with what you WANT to do, you tailor your resume to the job you want. If you assume everyone’s going to want to hire you, you’re not thinking about your target audience. Resume readers want skills, not adjectives. A lot of people come to coaches and resume writers to help them get clarity about how they can have impact. We asked Angela about the use of social media and how to be consistent in branding across different media so that your overall picture between your resume and social media is clear. Angela also says not to copy your job description on a resume, but agrees that you need to show that your experience matches the experience they are looking for. And, while many job descriptions talk about intangibles like “team player,” to say that you're a team player is white noise on your resume. You need to SHOW that you’re a team player, results driven or detail oriented in your accomplishments vs by listing those qualities. Front end work to get your strengths and goals clear is critical in a successful job search. Is the Great Resignation over? What’s the job market like today? Angela points out job cycles, and recommends that hard times cause companies to need different skills. We may end up in a limited hiring bubble, but right now companies are still screaming for talent. You may want to move to a role that feels stable for you. It comes down to knowing what you do that creates value and impact and can highlight it, you’re going to be more successful in your job search because you can pivot, modify, and adapt. If you have a skills gap, you need to fill it. Show companies you want to work for that you understand their business. You can get those gaps filled by volunteering, and also can expand your network that way too! Being a connector and getting to know other people can absolutely help you get your next job. Commenting on what you’re interested in and posting about it helps you become a thought leader in that space. Lastly, we asked Angela about video interviews and resumes. We’re seeing employers using more asynchronous video interviews. It’s convenient for the hiring managers and companies. Videos allow you to show people who you are, but it’s important to stand out and have an edge. Remember, you can’t have a video resume be too long or you’ll lose your audience. On video, you need to be “on”, engaging, and interesting. Watch examples of video resumes on sites like Bitable and use templates to get your message out there. Angela on Twitter: @angelarloeb (https://twitter.com/angelarloeb)

In this episode we advise on what to do when your company gets acquired. Most of us don’t know if our company is going to change structure, ownership, or leadership, so when something big is announced it can be a bit shocking and can cause us to ask, “What happens to me?” What do you do that day? Acknowledge your feelings - you’re going to get flooded with emotion. It’s scary. The number 1 thing you can do is take care of yourself. Continue to breathe. Take a walk. Understand that the feelings of uncertainty are normal and expected, but don’t pretend they aren’t there. That said, if you’re a manager or a leader, you need to take a deep breath and lead your people. You can tell them how you feel, but also exude confidence. Don’t make promises you can’t keep. Be as honest and forthright as you can. Admit what you don’t know. And save your meltdown for time away from your team. As an individual contributor, attend all meetings the company has for you, but make sure you keep getting your job done. Remember that being adaptable is the #1 skill that help people have successful careers. Being reliable is always helpful in staying a necessary resource. As an individual contributor you can control your adaptability, your attitude, your willingness to help, and your performance. Being the person who asks how you can help with the transition will make you invaluable. After day 1, learn about any upsides or golden handcuffs that come along with the deal. Are there bonuses for staying? Does anything happen to your pay? Your benefits? Your equity? Who at the new company does the same thing as you? Knowing your situation helps you assess where you can fit in the new org. That said, it’s a great time to brush up your resume and start exploring opportunities. Look for ways to help ease the transition in time of change. Post-acquisition layoffs happen. Be ready. Assess the culture of the new place. How did they announce it? What was the welcome like? How happy do the new people seem? Judge the new place against your must-have list. Be aware. Ask questions. Be a calm force looking at things objectively to best assess the situation. Look at how you’re welcomed- you learn a lot about a company when you see how they handle an acquisition. Is it employee first? Are you left in the dark? Are they focused on assuaging your fears? How is your manager handling it? Are there skill gaps between your old and new responsibilities? Try and fill them whenever possible if you want to stay and make yourself a stronger candidate for an internal or external search. Do whatever you need to do to be a great candidate for any job search. Figure out what this means to you, talk to your Board of Advisors for advice, and give it a chance to see if it can be a good change.

Top secret! We’re talking about NDAs, non-disclosure agreements. What’s an NDA? It’s an agreement between you and the company saying that you won’t share information about the company outside of the company. These are shared whether you’re an employee or a contractor. Sometimes you sign an NDA when you’re interviewing, which means that whatever you learn during the process you can not take back to your current employer. If you’re working on a secret project at work, your NDA says that you don’t tell anyone about what you’re working on. At least not the details of it. So, what do you do when someone asks what you’re working on?? Kat advises you make a joke like, “I’d tell you, but then I’d have to..”. You can tell people that you can’t wait until it becomes public and you can talk more openly about it. You can also say to people, “There’s a lot going on at work, and maybe if you Google it you can figure it out.” Internal Use Only means do not forward, and if you don’t listen, you could find yourself in legal hot water. Sometimes, when talking about things that are top secret, we have to realize that not everyone has the same amount of knowledge, so fishing to see who knows what could get you into hot water. If you know about something that isn’t public knowledge, you don’t want to be asking about it in case you make people curious and they find out things they should not know about. On your first day, make sure to ask for a copy of everything you sign and make sure you take the time to read it. Always know what you’re signing and make sure you can honor it. When you leave a company, it’s ok to ask for your signed documents. You will want to review them for non-solicitation language (and time limits -- for example, you may not be able to refer someone from that company for 12 months without violating your agreement) before you refer someone from there. Be informed to make sure you honor everything you’ve signed. If something is Googleable, it’s in the public domain, but if it’s not, it’s probably under NDA and you don’t want to be the leak -- so keep it to yourself!

Today we’re talking about background checks. Background checks are a standard piece of company’s hiring processes. The company takes the resume and verifies education, employment, and criminal records. Sometimes they also do things like drug tests. Both of us have had to rescind offers or eliminate employment based on background investigations, and each of those situations could have been avoided. The net net: be honest. It establishes trust. Background checks include references. A bad reference check can cause doubt and we’ve seen offers get rescinded because of them. So be aware and make sure all of your references will speak positively about you! Different industries (especially regulated industries like healthcare, financial services, and government) have different requirements including FBI checks and credit checks. Do your research to know what to expect. For most companies, they ask if you have any felonies, arrests, or other criminal records. TELL THE TRUTH. Yes, that arrest for drunk and disorderly on Spring Break ‘97 WILL show up on the report. If you’re honest, you should be ok. We’ve only seen issues when there are discrepencies between the application or resume and the check. Make sure you’re always as honest as possible! For education checks, if you claim to have a diploma, make sure that the school will confirm that you have the diploma. Taking credits does not equal a degree. Finishing coursework but not taking exams does not equal a degree. Having a financial hold means that there is a hold on your degree and you can not claim it. We have seen when someone doesn’t know that there is a financial hold (and they even walked), and we’ve seen companies go both ways when this happens -- they might rescind the offer, or they might let it go and follow-through with the hire. Still, if you aren’t sure, check with the school before claiming the degree. We encourage you to keep good records of the dates of your jobs. If you don’t know for sure, say “approx”. Just disclose whatever you can. What about changing your title on your resume to make it more searchable? That's ok -- your resume and Linkedin are marketing tools. BUT, you want to make sure any application states your true title, no matter how goofy it is. There’s a difference between changing the words on your title and lying about your title. We’re begging you to tell the truth.

Welcome to Dr. Carrie Root, who joins us to share her book The Other Soft Skill that teaches about intergenerational communication and connection. Carrie has had a number of career twists and turns, breaking barriers as an IT consultant with the Navy and now as an educational consultant. Carrie tells us that she ignored the gender differences she found in her early career by pretending there wasn’t one. With her work consulting with the Navy on pause, she did some consulting with NASA and thought about everything she’d learned and saw a lack in teamwork from earlier in her career. Carrie learned about a local Rotary Club program that gave free tuition to kids who kept their grades up and were responsible enough to graduate, and did some research to see that many of them weren’t able to complete their advanced degree programs. She saw the opportunities to get kids from local schools internships, but was hearing that they were too rough. Carrie also found that when kids come out of school they were used to homogeneous groups, and in the workplace she was seeing communication and style breakdowns. She was able to set up partners, buddies, and mentors in order to build relationships across groups and help them learn to understand each other and their style. She realized that by getting to know others, team members were able to see each other as people vs stereotypical generational people. We discussed how leaders can set norms for how a team communicates and start the conversation about how to communicate across the team. Carrie also told us about how managers help with adaptability around new technologies and norms. Getting people teaching each other is a key to intergenerational team success. Carrie reminds us all to learn from each other and each other’s perspectives. We have so many opportunities to take time, develop relationships, and listen to each other. Listening is the most under-rated skill in the workplace. If we listened more instead of thinking about what we’re going to say next, we could all connect and serve each other better. Gen Z tends to want to learn and grow, so when managing them, make sure they are always learning, having new experiences, and can learn from each other. You also want to make sure they have the best software and equipment to be as efficient as possible. She makes sure that for Gen Zs they have no penalty for asking questions or trying new things. “If you learn from something that didn’t go well, that doesn’t mean it was a bad thing.” We talk about learning, growth, and growth mindset and wanting to learn and move forward. We ask Carrie where to find mentors. She says that you need to think about what you bring as a mentee and what your responsibilities are as someone being mentored. You need to set expectations, commit time, and work towards your goals. Look for mentors outside of your organization and to help with certain goals. What happens if someone is afraid to ask someone to mentor them? Carrie feels that if you’re afraid to ask, maybe you’re not ready to be mentored, and if you assume they won’t want to, you’re putting words in their mouth. She recommends asking in a way that it’s ok for them to say no or to say “not now”. That way you know if they say yes they want to do it. Carrie Root & 5G Power Skills on Twitter: @5gpowerskills (https://twitter.com/5gpowerskills) Carrie Root on Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrie-root-phd-ultimate-troubleshooter/) Carrie Root & 5G Power Skills on Instagram:@5gpowerskills (https://www.instagram.com/5gpowerskills/?hl=en)

Welcome to Professional Service Manager and author of the new book Make Me The Boss: Surviving as a Millenial Manager in the Corporate World, Emily Tsitrian! We talked with Emily about being a “newer career” manager, why she wrote her book, and lessons she learned along the way. We asked Emily how she got into professional services (which is a lot of project management, implementation, and customer success), and she told us about how in college she wanted to be in tech, since tech changes the world (for better or worse). She started at an enterprise health solution company, and after 7 years she wanted to join a start-up and ended up at a unicorn where they experienced hypergrowth as the company scaled. Suddenly Emily and her peers were in management. When a friend asked her what books she recommended about how to be a manager, Emily realized the right book for her didn’t exist, and she decided to write one. She started, put it aside because of….life…. and picked it back up with the pandemic and finished it! We asked Emily how she discovered her voice as a manager. Her first point was that managers are always learning. At first she was overly invested emotionally, made everything a hill to die on, and built the team around her vs building a team who could replace her. Growth can be uncomfortable and vulnerable, and people in management positions are vulnerable because everything is on display. All of a sudden, people around us see when we look at our phone, look into the meaning of what we say, and overthink a lot of our reactions. Being in management comes with “a lot of crap” according to Emily. We discuss being strong and using the word “no” to protect both ourselves and our teams. Drawing boundaries helps us protect ourselves. We ask about the difference between being a millennial manager vs Gen X or Gen Z. Emily explains how millennials have grown in a hyper-connected world, changing societal norms in positive and negative ways and how it affects management. They also have lower life expectancy, accumulated wealth, and live for experiences and happiness. They’ve turned the world of professionalism upside down and shown us that we need to be aware if we want to attract millennial talent. They’ve shown us that if you don’t run your business with morals, employees will walk out. Millenials are more likely to want to communicate with a screen. Emily wanted to help people address the whole person. We ask the first piece of advice Emily gives to new managers, and she breaks it into people who are managing their peers vs managing a new group. For the first group, Emily talks about managing at least one person who didn’t get the job. She said to make sure that you keep business continuity -- don’t let balls drop. Then think about both relationships with team members and relationships with new peer group. She also invites people to talk about what it’s like being managed by someone who was their peer. Be ready for the difficult relationships. She advises to step back from close relationships with people on the team; make sure everyone has equal access to you, and focus on being their manager vs their friend. Another tip from Emily is that when you become a manager, don’t lose that thing you can coach people on. If you’ve mastered something as an IC, don’t lose it. Again, it helps with coaching and credibility. Your team needs to feel that you’re able to represent them at a meeting, so public speaking is a critical skill to have as a manager. How do you get better (other than reading Emily’s book)? Give a toast, be a podcast guest, watch some TED talks, ask a question in a meeting... there are a lot of good ways. We ask about evaluating potential new managers if you’re making a job change, and Emily has some great tips. 1. Does the company invest in their management teams? Ask how well managers are supported. 2. Insist that you talk with the person who will be your direct manager. 3. Ask that person hard questions (which is happening more and more) about how they manage, give feedback, and think about growth. Millenials get more and more community from work which makes people invest more in their workplace than ever before. We ask about how to retain millennials in this tough hiring environment. Emily is intentional on focusing on the high performers vs the people who are struggling. This goes against relation-driven millennial instincts to nurture, but making sure you can focus on building your best people so that you don’t lose them. She also tells companies to invest in their new managers and to start training potential managers and help them go up a half a notch. Good managers are building their next generation. We ask about a manager’s biggest challenge for 2022. Emily acknowledges the huge foundational shift in the workplace, and tells people to stay curious, invest in knowledge and be authentic without being married to past ideas. Liz adds the need to be flexible and caring….while staying relevant, curious, and open. We’re in a big inflection point -- let’s embrace it!