Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time – Details, episodes & analysis

This week, we speak with Christina’s friend and old boss, Sam Wedelich who navigates the world as a children’s book illustrator, storyteller, and self-proclaimed deep feeler. Sam takes us on a journey through her creative life full of unfinished drawings, toys, and stupid mental health walks. She holds the weight of the world and delivers it in both serious and light-hearted ways, connecting with children through shared experiences and comedy. As a writer, Sam reminds us that we tap universality through specifics, and she uses details from her own story to reach her readers and everyone she touches. She welcomes us to live in a world of curiosity. “It’s easy to keep hope when you are around children a lot,” Sam says. She has published several books and is working on more (details of which she candidly shares with us in this conversation), laughing as she describes how she gets into kid mode to begin writing or drawing.

This conversation is both buoyant and real, just like Sam. We left feeling connected to ourselves, each other, and humanity through Sam’s willingness to shed light on what unifies us because, as she lovingly says, “we are all the ages we ever were.”

We highly recommend checking out Sam’s website where you will find her illustrations and books, as well as some amazing free (and extremely fun) resources.

Sam has also curated a list of a few titles she read recently and loved or which would be a great place to start for the uninitiated.

Young Graphic Novels:

* First Cat in Space (4 books in series) by Mac Barnett and Shawn Harris (This one is great for DogMan fans)

* Reggie Kid Penguin by Jen De Oliveira

* Gnome and Rat by Lauren Stohler

* Cabin Head and Tree Head by Scott Campbell

Middle Grade Graphic Novels:

* Fresh Start by Gale Galligan

* Speechless by Aron Nels Steinke

* Wildfire by Breena Bard

* Uprooted by Ruth Chan

* Huda F Are You? Huda Fahmy

* Family Style by Thien Pham

Episode Transcript

Christina: I am receiving my own life and it’s making me fall into a puddle of tears almost every other hour. It’s a privilege to be so awake and I’m going to make myself some Indian food in the microwave. Ow. I love you. Don’t worry I have been MIA mostly just because I’m letting all of it wash over me. Whew.

It’s really, really wonderful.

Becky: Welcome to Noticing: The Podcast About Nothing And Everything At The Same Time. This week we’re talking with Children’s book Illustrator, storyteller and self-proclaimed deep feeler, Sam Wedelich. In this conversation, Sam takes us on a journey through her creative life, full of unfinished drawings, toys, and stupid mental health walks.

Sam welcomes us into a world of curiosity and reminds us that it’s easy to keep hope when you’re around children. So I hope you enjoy.

Christina: Okay. Okay. Today we have Sam Wedelich on.

She and I worked together in New York City. Um, so Sam was technically my boss. She and I worked for free people in New York City and we both built displays.

And my memory of Sam was me being on like a 20 foot ladder in the middle of Rockefeller Centers free people store. And her being like to the right looks great um, but I always felt like I always got very excited when Sam and I were the ones that would have to go to New Jersey in a van.

And we’d rent a van and go out to these little stores and, help them put their displays up. And I always got excited because I felt like the van was this very protective place where all of the professionalism that I saw Sam have to like box herself in and be like, Christina’s boss.

So she couldn’t let things over the line of boss um, it would fall away and we would have these really amazing and deeper conversations. And then there would have to be like the professionalism, Sam, when we were in among her bosses.

But I got this glimpse of this incredibly deep and soulful person who, when we were in the van, I would find out lots of amazing things. Like how she loves to sing soul music like I do. Mm-hmm. I think your birthday is coming up too, right? We both have birthdays right around now. And, um, just this fiery, deep, soulful, thoughtful, reverent human being that I loved getting to know.

So then I, um, moved out of the city, started working on building my own installations, she moved outta the city and we’ve, we’ve kept in touch. Sam is a children’s book illustrator, an amazing illustrator who always was drawing at work all the time anyway, um, but, but now is like really thriving in this, and I’m sure we’ll talk about that today.

And I moved up to Maine. Um, she’s still outside of New York City now, but, it’s been really special to watch you, Sam, deepen yourself into the things that I saw inklings of, and like whispers of things maybe you would wanna spend more time doing. And I’m doing the same thing up here. And every once in a while we’ll have a quick catch up.

And it always feels really great and like an expanded version of the van. That’s my, that’s my little intro to Sam. I’m really happy you’re here.

Sam: Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. That’s really funny. I remember those two. I think I know what you’re talking about. I don’t know that I thought about that holding that line, but I did care about making sure that everything felt like, I don’t know, proper and correct, I guess.

Becky: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Becky: I mean, when you were speaking, I was like, I know that feeling of like, you get into these corporate spaces and it’s, it’s not even a spoken thing,

it’s so interesting when we get in spaces how. I don’t know. And I don’t, I’m not assuming that’s your experience, but that’s what it rang true for me.

Sam: That’s fair. I think there’s a certain amount of code switching that happens maybe organically in that. Um, also to, to put it into more context, it was a team, right?

Like I managed a team of artists. So I think I was also just being really careful to never appear to have favorites. Like, like a mom is trying to be like, I love all of you equally.

Christina: Yeah. I think you did a good job of that. And, and then I loved getting, um, I loved getting the, the deeper Sam when you felt like there was space for that.

Sam: Oh gosh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. I’m a pretty open person. It’s also about my sense of safety too, like , in places like this or in places where I feel safe or invited or comfortable, I’m pretty open book. But I’m the opposite of that. If I don’t feel that way Mm. Like I’m a total wallflower.

Um, and I would, I’m much more comfortable just watching and taking things in. So I it’s kind of an on off switch a little bit.

Becky: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sam: Yeah.

Becky: I know that feeling for sure of like, yeah, feeling out where do I feel safe to be fully myself and, and when do I not, I think it’s an intelligent strategy.

Christina: Sure. Yeah. I was always trying to find the places, because I’ve always felt very safe to be myself, and then all of a sudden I was put into a more corporate setting and I was like, what? People can’t just, what, they can’t just be fully themselves. I don’t know what to do. Mm-hmm. And it really confounded me.

So I found safety and. Those van moments. Yeah.

Sam: Makes me happy.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: So, Sam, this is the first time I’m meeting you, but I, you know, we, we don’t do, we intentionally don’t do research on this podcast ‘cause we wanna just show up and see what’s alive. But I could not help looking at your artwork and then I was drawn in, so I am so curious.

I mean, I have so many questions, but first of all, I, I’m curious how that transition happened of like, moving from like how does one start writing children’s books and getting in that world?

Sam: So there are so many versions of how people do that. Like most things, like a lot of it is timing, and a little bit of luck.

But I think all of that always. Is dependent upon having done the work, right? Like having readied yourself and, and shown up for yourself,, and to whatever is inside of you. So I was always drawing, um, and writing things since I was a small person. And I was one of those kids, which it’s funny ‘cause I’m now dealing with this with my own child.

I was a, a margin doodler, right? Like to, to much to the frustration of my teachers. And I would get thumped on the back of the head in church constantly for drawing. But it’s how I listen and it’s how I process information and I’m always kind of moving my hand, and translating things that way.

I just, without going too far into it, I never thought of it as a job, for a lot of reasons. And, but I, I made a hard turn in college to go to art school, and. Then when my husband, I got married young. I’m from Texas originally, so it didn’t seem young to us at the time, but then to the rest of the world, getting married at 23 is young.

And Russ, uh, got into a grad school program, in Miami and we were, had only ever lived in Houston area. And so I needed a job and I did for the first time, I couldn’t just use my network to get random art gigs, which is what I had been doing with my art degree at that point. And so I went, I got a job doing window display for anthropology.

Mm-hmm. And that sort of started my corporate journey. And it was fine, you know, like it paid the bills. It got us through grad school, and then he got a job in New Jersey, so we moved to the Northeast and I just kept doing it. Took a year off and tried to make a go of it with my own illustration, and was doing pretty well.

And then, you know, kind of got offered the golden handcuffs to come back mm-hmm. To one of the sister brands, to free people. And I, I mean, the health insurance and the stability at that time in life was hard to say no to. So I didn’t, but I kept drawing on the side. I couldn’t do as many craft fairs or, or shows like I had been doing.

But I don’t know, I think it was always a secret dream. And then life happened, right? And so we started a family and I had, my first kid and kept doing the job, but started to feel the strain, right? Like climbing ladders and being at stores at five in the morning or pulling overnighters started to feel harder.

And then we wanted to have another one. And when I was pregnant with my second. I thought, I think I’m done with this job. Like I can’t be traveling this much. I’m missing everything. And it was sort of just a really personal moment. And so my husband and I started talking about how we could reconfigure our life to live just on his salary, and I could take time with the kids, while they were young and maybe see if I could spin up my own art career again.

So I did. And, but that whole time I was drawing, I and I started posting cartoons, about motherhood and stuff when, when my youngest was born, and a woman I had made a connection with randomly online, through, it was like an online platform that wanted to disrupt publishing.

It didn’t work. Uh, but we had gotten connected through that and we’d stayed in touch and. In the course of that time, she had switched from being an editor to a literary agent, and she was like, Hey, do you wanna like tell stories like you’re doing this anyway? And I was like, yeah, sure, whatever.

Like thinking it will be a long time. Like my, I have a baby right now, but like, by the time anything happens, you know, they’ll be in school and then I, that’s when I wanna be doing this, so sure. Let’s get this going. And then it turned out that an editor really loved my stuff and asked me to work on stories.

And my son was two, I think, at the time. So I said, yeah, and it was a little chaotic. And then everything happened during the pandemic and everything got more chaotic and I don’t know, it’s just kept going. So in some ways, very accidentally and in other ways was always sort of ready in case it could happen.

Christina: Hmm.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: I see a lot of the things that you draw, um when you draw, it feels to me like you are illustrating your own inner world in the context of everyone’s universal experience.

Sam: Hmm. My agent and I talk a lot about that. Uh, and it’s something that writers, I think, know pretty intuitively, that, that there’s universality in specifics, right?

Mm-hmm. Like that. The more, true a story I tell about my authentic experience, the more close to the core truth I share.

Christina: Yeah.

Sam: The more universal it becomes. And it’s actually something I share when I go and talk to students at schools. Like I love doing author visits, and I talk to ‘em about why stories matter, right?

Because it’s this weird thing that we do. Like we tell stories. And have for a long time. And obviously stories can be dangerous, like there can be propaganda, you know, but, you sort of ask why do humans do this? And I think it’s because it connects us. Like when you tell a very specific story about something that happened to you or even a made up story, there’s always enough of you in it, enough of your lived experience that gets into it, baked in there, that it.

It creates empathy connections, right. Between you and other people. So this, the thing I always tell students when I’m talking to them at schools is like, I start with something very like broad where I’m like, I’m from Texas. Like, okay, you’re not, you’re probably not from Texas. I mostly talk to people in New Jersey and New York and Pennsylvania.

Right. Or Connecticut. Mm-hmm. Like you’re not from Texas. Maybe you know someone from Texas, but we’re not connected yet. And then I say, you know, when I was growing up in Texas, my mom is from Germany and so English was not her first language. German was, so she spoke English poorly, uh, with a pretty thick accent.

And when I was growing up, kids made fun of her and they made fun of me and they made up stupid names that they called me. And it made me feel separate. I’m kind of othered. And then I tell the kids like, if you know that feeling like now we’re connected, right? And you can always feel a little shift in the room when it happens.

Um wow. And I know they know. And it’s like this is the power of storytelling. It doesn’t have to be a hard thing like that. It can be a funny thing. It can be a silly thing. It can be a joyful thing. But it’s because of that specific vulnerable feeling, getting shared that it creates this connection.

And I think you can, yeah, you can do it with visual art too.

Christina: You do both, right? Don’t you? You draw and write. Yeah. Is that,, you know, I’ve got kids. I, we read a lot of children’s books. I think I actually have one of the not color corrected copies of the first book you did, which was very special that you sent that to me.

And we read it and it’s my daughter Lucy’s, she always. This is my favorite book and we read it and I’m very expressive like you are when you read it, and it’s a really nice time. But a lot of the books that we have, it’s written by one person, illustrated by another.

Sam: Yeah. So I’ve done both. And it’s funny, like not having maybe prepared or, gone through whatever, a more traditional journey into children’s publishing is.

I didn’t know all the things that people know about those roles, uh, going into it. So I kind of had to learn as I go. But yeah, people take it very seriously, right? Like it’s a really, experimental new and fascinating form of literature, this children’s literature category. And. So normally, yeah, there’s somebody you sell, you write a story and you sell it to a house.

If you’re doing traditional publishing, and then the team there, there’s an editor and an art director, they will match an illustrator to the project. Right? And so that’s something that from the outside, a lot of people don’t understand, or a lot of people who write a story think they need to find an illustrator.

And it’s sort of like a matchmaking thing that publishing houses really enjoy doing. And they are not interested in you taking that away from them. Uh, no. I, I mean, sometimes projects come, you know, with people attached, but I think a lot of times, it’s fun for people to try to put things together.

Uh, they can be separate, right? Like someone can be just a words person, and they’re playing with language and they’re playing with a rhythm. You know, A lot of children’s books, texts are poetry.

A lot of them are rhyming, and then some of them are more traditional story format. And then, and then the visual art can do a lot of things, right.

You’re telling a whole separate story. Right? And a lot of times the people reading the book, your audience is usually an adult who is sort of understanding everything and a child who can only understand the pictures until they hear the words. And so as the visual side of the storytelling, you’re really sort of trying to hold space for both of the people, interacting, and giving enough information, or intentionally withholding information or intentionally counteracting the narrative.

All with the desire to give the child. As much agency or care as possible. I write funny books, so I’m always trying to let the kid be in the driver’s seat if possible. So like the story that you mentioned, my, my very first book, I have what’s called an unreliable narrator. Right? And kids love an unreliable narrator because it puts them in control, right?

Yeah. They know the character of the story is about to be set up for some sort of mistake or failure. And it’s so funny to them because that’s usually their experience, right? Everyone else in the world knows or seems to know mm-hmm. Everything about how the world works, and they don’t, they keep messing up all the time, or living in that uncertainty.

And so it’s very fun for a child to be like, ha ha, ha ha, like, I’m in on the secret and you’re gonna mess up, but you think you’re so brave, but you’re not. You’re not at all I can tell already. And that’s such an exciting thing to give a child, so,

Becky: We talk, we started talk these conversations talking about like, you know, the world is on fire, what can we do? And I think about. Everyone finding what they’re good at and what brings them joy and how to then seed to more loving and equitable world. And when I, the little bit that I was looking on your website, I like found , your PDFs of, of like, one was like about mindfulness and it’s, I’m, I could imagine a parent finding that and needing those tools just as much as their kid.

And so it is bringing this, this message to both the parent and child and I just get so excited about reorienting our society around what do kids need and like giving them these messages so early on and having brilliant storytellers like you focusing on kids. And it, it just, that gives me a lot of hope and like what, what we can seed into a, a better future.

It really excites me.

Sam: Yeah. I mean I think it’s, it’s easy to keep hope when you spend time with children a lot.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Sam: And to like, you don’t have to have children. You were a child, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think part of what probably feels nice about looking at children’s books is you’re honoring that part of you that is still there.

We are all the ages that we ever were. And I am still very much a child, which is why I do this work. And Yeah. And I wanna be really clear, like, I care about both people reading the book, but I’m, I want to center children, in the stories I’m telling, and make sure they feel seen and heard, and to the extent that the adults are reminded of what it is to be childlike mm-hmm.

And to tap into that. That’s what I’m inviting

them into. Um, and I’m using humor to do it a lot because I think comedy is a, a really interesting device to soften folks.

Becky: Hmm. Have you always been oriented towards comedy?

Sam: I think so. I, ah, that’s a good question. Uh, yeah, I think so. I think, I think, I always liked funny stuff.

I mean, I, I can be fairly earnest to, I’m pretty deep feel. But I, yeah, I think I always had some sort of inclination or leaning toward jokes.

Christina: I mean, even the way that you talk about how when you go do these author visits and the way that you find a common ground with your captive audience, these children, is to tell them something that was difficult.

That to me speaks to your deep feeling ness because you’re relating to them on something very real and tender. So like you set the groundwork with something real and painful maybe.

And then you lift it with comedy. Mm-hmm. So you do both. You’re not just, I’ve always seen you in this way. Someone who does both.

‘cause you can, you are a very deep feeling and you can be very serious.

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Christina: But there’s such a lightness to you as well. So even like in the PDF, if people go to your website and see your PDFs, I think there’s even like an anxiety spiral or like you’re literally drawing. Didn’t you draw someone holding their anxiety in their hands?

Sam: Oh, yeah, yeah,

Christina: yeah, yeah. So it’s funny because it’s hard.

Sam: Uh, yeah, it is. Yeah, I, I, that’s true. I have, I have melancholy tendencies for sure. And maybe humor is a part of how I deal with it, and try to, balance it. I don’t know exactly. You would think after all the years of therapy I’ve done, I would have some clarity on that, but I don’t.

Um, but yeah, kids are amazing, because they’re ready to talk real, like they know. You don’t have like, it, it’s the adults that scare me usually. There’s so much more rigidity there, it’s so much more certainty. Yeah. And I find that very frustrating and challenging, and I think it’s part of why the world right now feels very weary to me, because there is so much certainty all around, and people very, very sure, you know, of all the things. And I just live in a world of curiosity. I’m not saying I’m not sure about like things, but, i, I like to talk about the real stuff and, I feel very lucky to get to do the work that I do. Mm-hmm. And to think about the thing, like right now I’m, I’m trying to do a bigger thing than I’ve ever done, which is scary.

But Good. And hopefully I can pull it off. Um,

Christina: do you wanna talk about it?

Sam: Um, I’ve always wanted to make a graphic novel. And so picture books are short, right? Like standard picture book links are 32, 40, 48 pages. It’s a quirk of how books are bound, that it’s always eight page increments. And, and the way that I write, like Christina, if I laugh at this, like I talk too much and I’m, I over say everything. And so it happens in my writing too, that I make very complicated stories and then spend forever peeling them back to get them to like the right essence to be a picture book.

And so in some senses I’m like, this will be great. Like this will be easier because I already am too complicated. But shifting to a graphic novel, it’s a lot more story to carry. Characters are older. You need more plot, you need more, um devices, more things going on. But I’m excited to try it.

I’m, I’m looking at like my, I have a Post-it note, I’m at the Post-it note stage of it.

Which is, if any author, people listen, they’ll know this. But, you know, a lot of people work with the Post-It notes where we’re trying to map out things that we know need to happen in the story. But it’s easier on Post-it notes ‘cause they have to move around a lot.

Mm-hmm. Like, I, I don’t, I have like, pieces of it and I don’t exactly know how it all fits together. It feels very gestational. Um, like I’m trying to lift this thing out.

Christina: I love it. Yeah. Is a, a graphic novel’s like Dog Man, right?

Like, is is it like Comicy?

Sam: Great question. So Dog Man is a young, graphic novel. Yeah. I am trying to write something that would be more middle grade. Mm-hmm. So I’m trying to think. I have so many friends that make graphic novel. I should have had a stack ready to share. I can send them after. Um, I have a reference library I’m kind of glancing at.

But the problem with the graphic novel section of my reference library is that my children take them all. So most of them are actually no longer in my library. They’re in other parts of the house. It’s a huge genre right now. It’s blown up. It’s, it’s really big and it’s actually maybe something that outside of my immediate community isn’t really known.

There’s a lot of big feelings about how much graphic novels have taken a bite out of children’s literature. And. I think most of us making books are just happy for kids to find books that they wanna read.

Becky: Mm-hmm. Like

Sam: period. Um, but

Becky: Can I clarify the big feelings? Is it, is it like children are gearing more towards graphic novels and that disrupts them reading like chapter books?

Is that what I am intuiting. Okay. Okay.

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Becky: I see.

Sam: And that, that’s somehow a problem.

Becky: Yeah.

Sam: Um, and I sort of like leaving space for all the options. I, so that there’s early data, and people are trying to study it, you know, graphic novels, they carry on. The thing that picture books do, which is combining visual language with text, they can be really helpful for kids with dyslexia or kids with other.

You know, different styles of learning, because of the visual language that’s present can be such an aid. But we’re also starting to see or be curious about whether or not it helps everyone in their reading comprehension or language acquisition to have exposure to these things. And at the same time, like it’s fine to encourage kids to read other styles of books.

I just think calling any books good or bad starts to get a little weird. It is a very different type of storytelling. In some ways it’s similar to the things I’ve already been doing and in other ways, it’s more like storyboarding a movie in a book form. Yeah. So it’s more complex.

And the story I’m telling is, someone in like a junior high school age, so a little more coming of age.

Becky: Yeah. I actually think that what you said right before that is important about like, you know, labeling any type of book, good or bad, it lit me up. This is like a core, um, philosophy in my life of the way that, that we put things in boxes of good and bad.

First of all, it’s limiting because everyone does learn differently. I’m dyslexic. I really had challenges growing up and I think about, how we desperately need new stories right now and new ways to tell stories and, I wanted to call it out because I do think, the more we, we talk about these things of. I think it’s easy to get sucked into a debate of it’s this or that. And the more we can, pause and tease out and speak clearly about, well, there’s another option. What if I step out of this?

This is good or this is bad. What if we have both? You know, what if we make space for both? So that’s what I really heard in, in what you were saying. And I, I find it fascinating that these conversations are happening, even in writing for young adults. You know, that a discussion of, you know, not this or that, but Yes.

And, you know, and giving people options and, I don’t know. It makes my heart so happy to know that there’s thoughtful, intelligent, amazing storytellers like you that are bringing more options and, yeah. It’s exciting to me.

Sam: Yeah. I mean, it’s That’s right, that’s right. It’s, um, me personally, like I am interested in always like, complexifying, it’s not even a word, but like, I, I don’t like when things are, you know, made to seem very black and white.

Becky: Mm-hmm. Um,

Sam: and I think that speaks a little bit to the rigidity or certainty that I, that I was mentioning earlier. I wanna stay curious a little longer, right? Like, and, and push a little more into that space in between the things. We have a huge problem in our country right now with book banning, right? Um mm-hmm. And, and people wanting to decide what books are good and bad, for children, and. I think stories are so, so important and I think that a lot of people believe and probably do have very strong feelings that they are trying to serve children in the things that they’re pushing for.

Christina: Yeah.

Sam: And I think it would be better if people could start from that place and remember that as they talk about these things, even as I acknowledge that sometimes the viewpoints are never gonna line up, they’re just too diametrically opposed.

They’re coming from defining the universe literally upside down from one another. And I, I don’t know how to reconcile that, but I think the aspect of maintaining a sense of community and a shared desire for the welfare support and love of children would be a better place to operate from. Than demonizing people who hold different viewpoints.

But it’s hard. It, that’s a hard thing. It’s a hard thing. Even as I’m saying it, I’m sort of like, Ooh, is that right? You know?

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I don’t, me personally, my personal feeling is we need all the stories. We need all the stories for the reason, you know, that, that there is so much universal truth in people’s specific stories.

And I think it’s very tiresome for me, and I think it’s even more tiresome for children to keep being handed the same story that was popular in the 1950s. It doesn’t feel the same. The pacing of the stories is different. I mean, my daughter is 13 and, for fun, you know, tried to read little women and it was hard for her.

Mm. And we talked about it. She was like, it’s taking forever for anything to happen. And I was like, of course. Because at the time this story was written, nothing happened. You, you didn’t have television. You didn’t have. All these forms of entertainment that have sped up our attention span, and our desire for pace, right?

Like you wanted a story to last you hours, you wanted opera because that was how you were gonna go and socialize. You wanted it to take four hours with an intermission. That was great. And now our brains are like, whatever, 30 seconds swipe, 30 seconds, swipe. You know, it, it’s very different world we live in.

And so I don’t, I’m not saying get rid of those things. I think it’s important to have our history and to understand what literature was doing for the people at that time. And yet I don’t think anyone, when little women came out. We’re desperately trying to read, you know, Beowulf, you know, something equally old for them going like, that’s real literature, this stuff.

I just think that we’re, we lose sight sometimes of what’s important and the stories that people are writing now. The new stories are so great because the people that are writing them are people who are closer to the world that the kids are living in. And they’re have, they’re speaking to the things that they see.

The artists are always trying to shine the light on the things. That’s kind of just what you do. Um, so yeah, I think, I think it’s good to find the new stories, that speak to people and make people feel less alone in the world, right? Mm-hmm. Like we need those stories that center all these other ways of being so that people don’t feel alone.

Because the truth is there’s almost always someone who’s going through or has gone through the things that you’re struggling with. And if the only context you find a sense of community is through a story. Maybe that’s the thing that gets you to the next, the next moment, and that’s everything. So,

Becky: Hmm.

Christina: Beautiful.

Becky: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Christina: It’s so nice. I, I am in this, I’m in a little class, like a little prototype class about story specifically cosmology of our times and like what, what cosmology means. Like the story of us here, the cosmology of like the United States, where we are right now is very different from the cosmology of like, some small country in Africa or something.

Mm-hmm. Different places, even different places on like small tribes that live on opposite sides of a mountain would have different cosmologies. And so we’re, I’m, it’s really interesting. I wasn’t even expecting this conversation to take me here, but I’m in this class and all of these things that are happening in my life are weaving in and out of what I’m learning.

And it’s so interesting to hear you talking about, what I hear is you feeling, a real, like you feel the responsibility of what you are doing. And I think that’s really beautiful to hear, because you are offering new story, new, new cosmology to, to this time now. Right? And we even in this class, we even talk about things that we maybe just, take for granted the cosmology in the stories that we tell ourselves Here.

We are trying to think of, we were trying to come up with lists of just stories that we tell ourselves. Like one example that’s coming to mind is money is power. Like, do we believe that? Do we choose to believe it? Do we not choose to believe it? God is good. Do we choose to believe it? All of these little things that you might find.

And it’s, it’s been so interesting to think about that and then to talk to you as an author that’s literally writing to the generations that are being seeded now. And, and hearing you speak with such clarity and, and like reverence for what you’re doing. And also passion and curiosity. And I mean, one of the things we could, we are curious people too.

So like we bring curious people into conversations because we’re all coming at curiosity for the world from different angles. Yeah. And, and also I feel a kinship with what you’re saying with artists. Our job is to filter this world through us. Mm-hmm. And it’s filtering through me differently than it’s filtering through you.

And that’s the beauty of all of it.

Sam: Totally. It, it’s interesting, like, uh, I’ll point out one other thing about the specific work of, of writing for children, which is that I can talk about all these things and I feel all these things and, and I mean, you know what I’m saying? And that’s a part of it, but when I’m actually doing the work of the writing for the children, I am my child’s self.

Mm-hmm. Like I am not, I can’t let that part of my brain into the process of writing stories for children. And not, not that I dislike stories that are like what I will say in a second, which is there are so many stories that are very moralistic, just right off the bat. Like they are a lesson or they are a thing and there is a place for those.

I’m just personally not interested in writing them. I want those things to be really baked into the story, and feel super duper organic, and natural within the context of the story, feeling true to a kid. And the only way I found to do that successfully is to find my child’s sense and right from that place.

And thankfully, like I am still that person very deeply, so it’s fine. But yeah, like my, the book I had that came out in November is called A Quick Trip to the Store and it’s about a mom and daughter who go grocery shopping ‘cause they’re out of bananas. But neither one of them wants to go to the store because the, the mom says that shopping with children is difficult.

And the daughter says, well, she doesn’t like shopping. ‘cause shopping with moms is difficult. And there’s like all these little comics of them arguing about what that she can get from the store. She wants the, the thing that has a free toy in it, or she wants the cereal with the extra sugar. And mom’s just a total grump about it. , and that’s sort of the premise that leads them on this wild caper through the grocery store., and it feels authentic, right? Because I’m telling a true story about what it’s like to be both an adult and a child in an environment where nobody’s getting what they want, right? Like there’s, there’s no win-win here.

There is only lose lose. So we might as well have some fun. Mm-hmm.

Becky: What I’m hearing and so far from you and what I love, and please correct me if I’m sensing the wrong thing, but it feels like a reorientation, uh, towards the child. And I’ve, I’ve been obsessed with this lately thinking about the difference between patriarchy and matriarchy.

Patriarchy being this hierarchy with basically children at the bottom. ‘cause they’re useless. And matriarchy is a circle with the children in the center because they hold the future because they hold, they hold evolution, you know, because they are the next. So it’s a, a centering around children to focus on them.

And that’s what I’m hearing in, in your, in your writing and how you speak about it, is we don’t need to tell the kids what to do. It would actually be more beneficial to center them. Learn from them, learn how we can maintain that connection to our own inner child. Because child, like, even in like the tarot deck of the fool, you know, it’s the beginning of the major Arcana and it’s all about like being willing to be the fool.

Because that’s when you learn, you know, being willing to give up those certainties. Because when you give up those certainties, that’s when you learn something new. Or we’ve talked about Christina before about, um, emptiness. You know, emptying out the old ways of knowing so that you can actually step into something new.

And I love that the way you’re talking about this.

Sam: That’s right. That seems right. I think I, I, I don’t have any issues with that. That seems right. I thi it made me think, about awe. Mm. Like, um, like that feeling of awe and how. That always feels very different to me than anything else.

And it feels deeply rooted in childhood. And I’m not specifically sure why, if, if I was taking an initial stab at it, I think it would be, because when I feel that feeling, I’m feeling like I’m a part of something larger.

Which makes me feel small, but not in a bad way. In, in, mm-hmm. In the way I hope, or I think I did feel as a child, very held, and very connected,, but just sort of in awe.

And I, and I love that and I, I think, I think the best children’s books, whether they’re funny or serious, can tap into that somehow.

Becky: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that feeling of smallness. ‘cause when you are young, the, your physical environment, you do feel so small. And I think, you know, we grow into adults and we can fall into this hubris that we are the biggest things, the most important things, and we forget to look up, you know, and, and Christina, you talked about cosmology.

All you have to do is look to the cosmos and have that feeling of smallness again. Or start tapping into deep time to like realize our youngness, you know, but it’s easy to lose touch with that as an adult. And, um, yeah. I appreciate any invitation into awe. I, I agree with you. It’s, it’s like an indescribable feeling and I, I think it does feel young and it does feel small in the best way.

Christina: Sam, how do your ideas come to you and like, how do you prepare? Um maybe this is two questions. How do your ideas come to you? And then how do you prepare? Like, do you have any ritual or anything that prepares you to get into your child mind for writing?

Sam: Mm. That’s a good one. Um,

I might answering backwards. Preparation of kid mode involves doing kid stuff. Mm-hmm. Um I gotta feel silly. So it’s dancing around or singing. It’s following my kid energy, which is very destructive, inattentive style.

So sometimes it’s like. Go into the thrift store and touching all the stuff. It’s like I collect rocks. Let myself have funny things. So like I have toys all over the place, in my office. Mm-hmm. Um, because seeing those reminds me of being a kid. I have a picture. Oh, I can show you that., I have a picture of me as a kid that I look at in my space.

It’s dusty. ‘cause I’m really bad at cleaning. Even just

Christina: moving the picture. I heard a bell.

Sam: That was one for free people bells. Oh my God. I have still like a tiny one from like a holiday display leftover. I don’t know. I love that. That just came into this

Becky: hang.

Yeah. In the picture. What are you doing together? Are you making something?

Sam: That’s my grandmother. It’s some kind of little dog, uh, with a battery operated thing. It was like the eighties. Right. So it, it barked I think if you pushed a button. Cool. But I’m just giggling.. And I love that. I love, I have a complicated origin story, and so for me to have a photograph of like, me laughing as a child is really meaningful.

And like, you know, to remind myself that I had, that I had those moments. Mm-hmm.

But, so that’s, that’s how I activate that part of myself. Oh. I like to get in the garden. And sometimes I have to move my body because I get very moody. And um, that’s a good way to get some dopamine. So I gotta go for stupid mental health walks.

I don’t remember who, like, popularized that. It was like a meme for a while.

Sam: Going for my stupid mental health walk. And I was like, oh, yes. Very relate. Yes. That’s me too. Um, so I do that and then, um, how I get ideas, I don’t know. That’s just, who knows. Stuff pops in my head all the time. And so I carry a notebook.

I have ink, and, um, watercolors and pens, and I carry, I’m never without them. Like my, I was in Disneyland line drawing. Like I just, you never know. I, I just have to be open, like, I’m like a sponge. And then things pop in my head some, the book I’m working on now, it popped in my head.

I saw a picture of a kid. Oh, I can, I’ll show you.

This is a rough draft, so it’s not cute yet. But, this, this kid, do you see this little head? This popped in my head. All right. That, that there’s this kid and he can barely see over the top of the table and it’s like there’s something, there’s something he wants on the table.

Um, and he’s just barely there. And I think it was like, there was just something immediately hilarious. It was sort of like this wordless comedy with so much like power before anything has entered in. Like you immediately know like something’s gonna happen here. And I love, again, I think that that always feels like a huge clue moment for me, because that’s gonna be funny to a kid who can’t read any of the words they already know.

That kid is shark circling something, you know, we found something good. Um, and also because, and there it’s funny, like sometimes I don’t know that I have like a personal attachment to an idea. And then as I was working this, this story has existed in multiple forms because that happens. Um it didn’t work the first iteration set to blow it up and put it back together again in a new form, and now it’s gonna be a book, which is great.

Um but I remembered while I was working on it that I, I snuck candy out of the Halloween bowl when I was little and got busted and got in trouble. But I think it was a me memory. Like I think I remembered seeing the candy bowl on the table and knowing that I wasn’t supposed to take the candy out of there.

And I don’t know. It is funny. That’s just funny. So I needed to see what I could do with it. So there we are.

Christina: It’s so good. That’s like, that’s like you, you know, like you’re saying, the truer that you can get, the more universal it is. That’s like you reaching into some deep part of Sam and pulling out this memory and being like, that is so true.

From when I was like five.

Sam: Yeah. I don’t know how it happens. It’s weird, but I, I just try to stay open. I, I talked to, I got invited by another illustrator friend to talk, she teaches college to talk to her students, and I was like, oh, I don’t know if this is a good idea, but, okay. And so the only thing I could come up with though, as like, um, like a metaphor for how I think about, storytelling, and I do refer back to it, so it’s holding up so far, is it’s a little bit like surfing

you have to be in good shape to be good at surfing, right? Like you have to have some upper body strength. And you have to have some practice time. Like you need to spend time understanding the mechanics. But when you’re actually going out to catch your wave, like you gotta sit there and watch the water, right?

And not every wave is for you. Sometimes the wave is for your friend, you know, they’re in a better position where they’re, they’re sitting on their board watching the water too. Um, and then, you know, you’re happy for them. Hopefully you’re cheering them on as they ride that in. And then when your wave comes, you have an opportunity to ride that and hopefully you do.

And if you fall off, you get to try again because the waves are coming constantly. They’re not stopping. The ocean doesn’t stop producing waves. And so it helps with the sense, uh, to, to like push back against the sense of scarcity. ‘cause I think that that is not good with creativity. Like trying to generate stories with fear doesn’t usually work well.

So that’s kind of how I think about the idea process. ‘ cause I do get frustrated sometimes. It takes a long time to write. Writing is hard. The, the visual part can be easy and feel very magical, but the writing part is, is hard. And I think most writers, if they’re honest, will, will say that it can hurt.

It takes a long time before it starts to click. It sucks,

Christina: but,

Sam: but it’s so amazing when it finally clicks. It’s what makes you keep coming back to it. Yeah. It feels magical when it finally works. So you’re like, alright, I guess I’ll do that again.

Becky: Do you feel like it start, does it ever start with a, a feeling Because what, what was coming up as you were saying that is like, worlds are so limiting.

So I imagine, you know, that is the true mastery of writing is to try to find the right combination to express this feeling. And if the feelings are big within you, I imagine it’s even trickier.

Sam: Yeah, I think that’s right. I think that I’m always trying to, uh, there’s something playing in, in my mind or in my being, right, either a piece of an experience or an imagined experience that’s overlaid onto something that really happened to me or to someone in my circle that I love.

And I want you to feel it. I want you to feel that. And so in order for you to feel that, I have to set up all the things around it that will help you to feel it. And so I have to set up all, I feel like I’m just telling myself how to write my graphic novel. Okay, this is good. Um

Christina: yes, you’re welcome.

Sam: Becky’s good for this

Christina: stuff. What? Yeah.

Sam: Yeah, yeah. Right. Well, you were saying the same thing too. Like, oh, look at all the things that are weaving into the thing I’m thinking about. That’s we’re pattern seeking, right? Like that’s the thing. Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah, I think in this story I’m trying to create right now, like I want you to feel the feeling of.

Discovering your voice and how to take up your space as a more quiet person. But a person who has deep opinions, right? Mm-hmm. Which is a person personality type that I don’t see a lot in the space, which is why I’m interested in trying to have a story for that type of character. You have a lot of, people who are loud who need to learn how to listen to others.

You have a lot of people who are, you know, super anxious and just need to feel validated or safe. But it’s a strange personality type that is somebody who appears to be very quiet but is like, actually has big boss energy.

And um, I have a few people like that in my life. And I love them deeply.

And so I would love to tell a story that honors that. And so I need to set up all the pieces around the feelings, I guess. Yeah, I do. I have to set up all the circumstances so that you could feel what it feels like to feel those things. And then how all the situations act upon that reality.

In a way that you can relate to, even if that isn’t your personality.

Something weird happens though, and I think there’s, I don’t have a reference for it, but I know I’ve seen it. They’ve done brain scans. Like when you’re reading a story, you experience the things that are happening to the characters in the story as if they’re happening to you. Like if we scan your brain, you know, if they’re jumping and doing something dangerous, your brain lights up as if you’re doing the things.

I think that’s kind of fascinating.

Becky: Yeah. The brain doesn’t know the difference between real, as in you can touch it and real as in you’re imagining it and story, but it has to be really vivid for the brain to really register it the same. But that’s what’s, that’s the power of story is it does make it so real that it, it sucks you in.

It’s beautiful.

Christina: I’ve been thinking a lot about art, in all of its forms and how it has the ability to heal a lot. My work has brought, has been brought into places of literal healing recently and then it’s made me think, ‘cause I’m living with a curious mind. It’s made me think, does this work have memory? Like does it remember being with me for a long time when I made it?

Can it heal? Like is my connection to this work still alive? Two separate questions. Am I connected to it still so that I might send it healing? And does it already hold memory so that it may do its own work? And I think about. So I believe yes and yes, first of all. And it’s a powerful thought and I think about what you are doing and, um, I even, even in you saying you have some friends that you want to speak to in this young adult novel, I also see you speaking to yourself too, always.

Um, yeah, always. So, um, do you have thoughts? Like, does that thought, can you relate? Can you relate to me, Sam?

Sam: Yeah. Art

Christina: and healing. Yeah.

Sam: Yeah. I think it’s interesting. I think, I think it’s an easier yes for writers, um, ‘cause I think writers have always have talked about this for a long time, right? That like, you make a work, it could be a novel or a children’s book or any type of writing poetry and, and your choices.

The choices that you made to put those specific things on those pages then go and they’re in the hands of someone else and that person’s having a relationship with those choices. Like Yes, of course. You, I have connections with children all over the place that I don’t even know I’m having as they read the books that I make.

I try not to think about it too much ‘cause it comfort freaks me out. Yeah. But I, I know, or I say a lot like there’s a point in the bookmaking process where I send the book out into the world to go live its life. Right? Like, it feels that way to me and that’s the way that I deal with that. And I hope that it has the power to heal.

And I hope that all stories do. And I think art, I think your intention stays with it. A. I think there’s probably some kind of physics we don’t understand that would help us explain that.

And that’s a thing I’m tinkering with in this story too, which is, you know, the way that, um, you know, strings vibrate and sound vibrates and different frequencies, the same string can do different things. And, and sort of all the ways we show up in the world, right? And these different things happen and how it makes you appear or sound right. And I, I don’t know, there’s some kind of connection there. I I mean, I, why not?

Becky: Yeah. Now I can’t wait to read your graphic novel. You’re, you’re speaking my language.

I mean, I even think of like the, the research that they’ve done, I think primarily in Japan around water crystals and the effect that intention has on the, the composition of the water crystals and, you know. We are made of mostly water.

So yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head that it’s probably some physics we don’t understand yet, but that doesn’t make it not true. And I think intention, um, I think intention does transcend space and time and, and ripples out in ways we’ll never, maybe, never fully understand. But, um, yeah, it’s beautiful.

I like thinking of these ripples going out into the world and all the connections.

Sam: Well, I’ll say, you know, knowing your work, Christina, like, it’s always been like you are always such a joyful person and I know that’s always been a huge part of the work. You, I don’t, I’m not surprised you feel that that way and that you have those experiences and that awareness and sense. Like I think that’s been true for you always.

Um, and it’s a part of what draws people to your work. I remember. Talking about, like, I don’t know if it was art school or after, you know, the conversations about how so much of people making art, it seemed like it needed to be heavy. Mm-hmm. Or serious.

And you sort of exploring what it meant to push back against that and be true to the work you wanted to make, which was sort of defiantly joyful.

Christina: Defiantly joyful is very true. Yeah. In art school, I had, one particular friend who had a very difficult upbringing, and she, she was like, Watka, why is your work not painful?

It has to be, it must be painful to be real. And I was like, ah, it would be fake. I can’t do it. It’s not me. And it wasn’t like my professors in art school. I think historically art was supposed to come out of pain. Um, I didn’t get that necessarily from my, mentors and teachers in art school. I think because they saw me and saw, you know, maybe they would be coaching someone else, like, use your pain to make the art.

Maybe that’s where like the deepest work is for you. It’s just not my experience. So yeah, I’ve had to really, I’ve had to really accept that and, and lean into to the joy. Because that’s what, that’s like, that’s how consciousness flows through me as me. It’s not I’m, I don’t have a well of deep trauma or pain or anxious noodly insides that I need to untangle outward.

I am meant to be so bright and like not hide that. That’s my role. I’m about to be 40, tomorrow’s my birthday, and I am like, as clear as day that my, the days of me wondering where the hurt is are not really anymore good. Yeah. ‘cause it wasn’t, I didn’t have to go find it. I, it was, I tried for a while, like maybe there is some, I don’t know, maybe there should be more problems.

So now I’m, I’m conscious of the healing properties in the work that I make, which is, which is coming because I’m finally just not looking, instead of looking for hurt that should be in here somewhere. I’m actually looking for like how I can put that energy towards real proper forward motion, you know?

Sam: Well, I, it’s. It’s a beacon for people who don’t have a lived memory of what it looks like, right? Like I do have the messy background, right? And I’m building something super different in my family Now. I don’t have the muscle memory for it, but I, I know it when I see it out, right? I go, oh, there it is. It is possible, right?

And for you to be authentic to the delightful life that you’ve lived is a beacon for the people who are looking for proof that it’s possible. Like it’s very validating. It’s like, oh look, you can be healthy and loving and kind, and you can raise a family that way. And they can turn around and do the same thing with their children.

Goodness can come and flow generationally just like trauma can. It’s just very rare in the world we live in. Um, or I feel like it is. So it’s really, really lovely that you share that.

Christina: Thank you.

Sam: Happy early birthday.

Christina: Oh my God, thank you.

The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.

Becky: Also I was at the gas station getting gas obviously, and you know, my eyes were just wandering and all of a sudden I look up at like the overhang of the gas pumps and there is this reflection of the puddle on the ground and it’s just these beautiful dance of ripples and I wish I had taken a video of it, but it was just like the Universe reminding me that everything I’m doing is rippling out and I can just trust and everything is aligning exactly the way it’s supposed to be.

It was very, a very obvious example of the power of noticing.

As a part of our “the world is on fire what can I do?” series, we bring in Lea Urguby, Becky’s friend of decades and someone who has, in large and small ways, changed Becky’s life. Lea brings a humility and a sociologist’s brain to this conversation and speaks about her lifelong activism with groundedness and a deep desire to be a harbinger of actionable change. She speaks with compassionate urgency about how we must build the scaffolding for community, highlighting that “we are only as strong as our interpersonal relationships.” She reminds us that community takes practice, even offering tangible steps we can take everyday like waving at a neighbor.

As someone who grew up with a mother who is very much awake to the world, Lea’s formative experiences included laying her 8 year old body down in communion with her favorite frog habitat upon learning it may be in jeopardy. Lea gracefully delivers a refreshing, long view of a world on fire. She reminds us that there are so many ways to show up as a community member— from noticing the pattern of breath in the person standing in line behind you to donating funds to a far away issue that you believe in —it all matters. Nothing is too small.

Our longest episode yet, we cover a lot of ground. From the ways art reconnects us by buoying us to joy to how hyper local organizing work is the most sustainable, this conversation is rooted in action and an understanding that we are not separate from one another. Finding our connection, Lea notes, is the greatest catalyst for change.

Here are this week’s invitations to explore this conversation further:

* Check out Lea’s consulting website

* Listen to Dean Spade’s podcast Love in a F*cked Up World, especially the episode with Andrea Ritchie

* Listen to the NPR podcast Throughline - pretty much any episode is likely to shift your perspective on how we got to this moment

* Explore the work of Prentis Hemphill

* And if you haven’t read Parable of the Sower, consider yourself officially invited. Really just read all of Octavia E. Butler.

Episode Transcript

Christina: So I was thinking about our conversation with Lea and um, one of my favorite notes that I keep on my phone is people I meet with dogs and I put their name and their dog’s name so that when I’m in the woods and I see the dog, I’m like, oh, shoot. And I open up my notes app and I look for the person. I’m like, oh, great.

That’s Lisa with Buck or whoever. And it, um, it just reminds me of like, you know, her note of making a note of the person’s name, who serves you, your coffee at your local store. Um, yeah, it’s great. It’s a, it’s one extra step, but it works really well. Also, Lisa’s a jeweler. She’s a real person. I’m not just using a fake example.

Becky: Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing And Everything At The Same Time. This week we’re joined by my dear friend Lea, who was the first person who I thought of when we started this conversation around “the world is on fire what can I do?” Lea is someone who grew up with an activist mother, and we talk about her roots.

Literally laying her 8-year-old body down in front of an excavator to save her favorite frog habitat. This episode is jam packed full of wisdom as we explore together what it means to set up scaffolding around community and how to show up as a community member. We explored so many ways. It all matters and nothing is too small.

I hope you enjoy.

So today we are joined by my dear friend Lea, who, so on this podcast, if you haven’t been listening, when we have guests, we like to introduce each other not from like, here’s your cv, here’s the bio, but like, here is how my heart sees you. So how are you perceived by someone who loves you?

Lea was actually the first person that popped into my mind when we started having these conversations around this moment and how we can each stretch ourselves a little bit, to show up in an authentic way, but in a more engaged way for this moment because Lea has been doing this work of movement and like we the conversations we’ve been having before from my perspective, have been kind of feeling into how to do something new.

And not that this moment isn’t new, isn’t new for you Lea. ‘cause it’s new for everyone. But you’ve been doing this work for so long that I was very interested to talk, um, talk to you. So Lea is, I’m remember distinctly when I met Lea, I had moved to San Diego. I was about 25 and I was, canvassing for Environment California.

So I was one of those, well-meaning big hearted, but annoying people who stands outside of the grocery store and is trying to basically guilt you into giving money. Um, and I remember, uh, almost the exact words that Lea said, which if you, my memory is not a lot of things stick like this, but this stuck.

She was basically like, you know, that they’re just, that organization’s just raising money so they can keep raising money. And it just stopped me in my track. And there was, I’ve reflected about this, about like, what was that that stopped me in my tracks and it was just the facts. But in this loving like.

There I didn’t feel an ounce of judgment for what I was doing. I felt like this loving invitation to think about the world differently. Um, and that is like the core, when I think of Lea, that’s what I think of. And so I probably quit this the next day and was like, I’m out.

And basically, became like a little puppy following Lea around. ‘cause at the same time she was, opening her, uh, to call. So it was called the Rubber Rose. And to call it a, erotic or sex shop is like selling it short. It was an art gallery. It was a, um, you know, sex positive, queer positive place to learn and grow and be in community.

And I was just, that was the first of many times my perspective. My worldview was exploded open, by Lea and, um. Yeah, the, the shop is no longer there, but her work obviously continues in many ways in her engagement in community, in her pursuits of academia.

Before she popped on, we saw an image of her gorgeous, wonderful daughter who she took to school with her in college, which I always love. Um, and is now bringing her talents to, classrooms and also to businesses and organizations who are interested in aligning their business with, sustainability, equity justice.

And, um, what we always talk about is seeding a more, loving, equitable and sustainable world. Lea is now doing that through consulting with businesses who might not have her deep well of expertise, and I’m really excited to watch that grow and progress and, yeah, very excited to have you here today.

Because like I already, already me mentioned you have such a different perspective of this moment that I definitely do. And yet just like every moment they’re unprecedented. You are in a different space personally. So I’ll open this dialogue with kind of the core of what we’re trying to get at is how is this moment living in you and what, yeah.

I’ll just stop there.

Lea: Hmm. Um, well first thanks for all those memories.

Um, that’s a fun little, a little memory lane. I love that you remember like our first meeting, sorry, environment, California or whoever it was. Greenpeace or,

Yeah, I mean, I think that this moment is living in me in a very different way than moments that have come before that have felt, you know, just as urgent, as a parent. Um, my kiddo is turning seven in a couple months and so these last seven years have really been for me, like attempting to do a really intentional pivot so that I can continue to show up in the world in the ways that I have in the past, but in a way that feels,

With, with a couple extra layers of protection around me and my family. Um, and so I, I’m just sort of sitting with the duality of what that often means. And so, um, since becoming a parent, I oftentimes feel the urgency almost more intensely. And yet, because of the work that I have done in the past and typically have done in the past, the restraint kind of comes just as quickly after.

And so it’s like a really interesting tension for me. And I think that that tension is existing for a lot of folks that I grew up in the activist space, I guess. Mm-hmm. With, um, as were many of us, um, have chosen parenthood over the last 20 years and many of us are aging and, the ways that we’re moving is very different than the ways that we would’ve used to have moved.

And so, what I find interesting about that is that the feeling that I am feeling is likely very similar to the one that people who are almost maybe new to movement work or new to sort of seeing this. Sort of the layers peel back in front of them that they might also be experiencing something very similar.

So I think it’s interesting that it sort of like brings me back full circle to sort of like entryway into movement work. Mm-hmm. Um, because I think that the tension, I think that that tension exists within a lot of folks. They feel an urgency and they feel an uncertainty about where there places in it and how to move and how to move safely.

Um, yeah. And so, yeah, I think I’ll stop there for a second. Just that’s sort of how it’s landing in my body.

Becky: Yeah.

Lea: Um, yeah, just kind of layers of, layers of conflict and sort of conflicting emotions and feelings.

Becky: Yeah.

Lea: Yeah.

Christina: I am curious what the literal difference, like, can you, can you kind of parse out what the actual difference of, maybe I’m hearing that you’re, you’re putting some more protections around your life and your family life.

Um, what does that look like in like, the literal commitment that you have in the day to day, and how are you showing up in a way that feels right for you right now in these activist spaces? Because all I’ve heard from Becky is just like, we gotta get Lea on here. She’s like, she’s the person, she’s the person that, that guides all of my activist impulses.

Gosh. And she’s just, oh my gosh. Like, tried and true. So it’s

Lea: true.

Christina: What is that? Uh, yeah, I’m curious what

Lea: that looks like. Yeah, no, that’s

Christina: like, for you,

Lea: I think that’s a great question. That’s, that’s probably really important. Um, and I guess, yeah, now that I’m thinking about how I’ll answer that, I suppose maybe the ways that I move now or maybe even possibly a little bit more, you know, wild for folks who are maybe entering into movement.

Um, so in my early activist days, 20, 26 years ago is when I kinda landed in San Diego and really found like a ho, like a activist family home. Um, I grew up in a a very open, and I would say fairly radical household with, with me and my mom. Um, my mom is, you know, just like a very classic old school hippie. There’s so many things she has done in her life that she was able to inform me even in little ways through my childhood. I grew up in the Bay Area and, um, we landed in, in Marin after my parents separated. And we ended up in like a, this low income housing condo project that they were like starting to build. So we were one of the first layers of houses or whatever. And of course like the next layers were coming and there was like this marsh behind my house.

So I’m like eight years old and like laying in front of the bulldozer, they’re like protecting my, my frogs and like all of my like tadpoles that were in there. Right. And so like, and my mom is like, you know, burning sage like around me. Like she has like some, like some like, you know, native elders that she’s in community with, that they do work around this, marshland and they’re like drumming out, you know, to the sunrise or something, you know.

So I’m.

Upbringing that has sort of situated me well for movement work, I guess. Um, but so, you know, as an adult I land in San Diego, um, as a young adult, I should barely 18. Um, and really found a home for, for what I felt I was impassionate like passionate about at that time. And it’s funny, I, I think it’s important to preface like the hippie upbringing, because I sort of fell deeply in with really incredible anarchist circles.

And at the time, early two thousands, there was really like a lot of these conversations within our circles that, like each previous movement, had really sort of like failed the urgency of the time. And so we had this idea that like the hippies kind of just, they went, they went off and they like built these alternative communities and they just kind of like grew up into yuppies and like owned houses and, you know, the woods and in the hills.

And they really didn’t like change structurally the way that, um, the world moved. And as anarchists, we were blocking streets. We were setting dumpsters on fire. We were, um, I was part of different black block organizations and so we were doing banner drops off of buildings. We were, we had friends that were like rock climbers.

And so, um. You know, I think at the time that I was meeting Becky, I had, I had some really strong opinions about what nonprofits did. Um, mm-hmm. And I, I was really deeply, um, like in that space of talking about like this nonprofit industrial complex that if we continue to fund these nonprofits, um, that are, you know, this small percentage is going to actually solving these issues, these larger percentages are going to pay, you know, paychecks and whatever else in structural organization.

and I was just like deeply in, um, in, in radical direct action. Um, so a lot of, I had a lot of friends actually that had come down to San Diego. We were doing a lot of work around, the militarization of the border in early 2000, 2001, 2002. Um, the war in Iraq was gearing up and starting in 2003, whereas we were doing a lot of anti-war action.

Then. I had a lot of friends who had come down from the Pacific Northwest, and they had been in, in 1999, there was what was called like the Battle of Seattle, and it was against the World Trade Organization, and it was this sort of like huge sort of moment for like anarchist action. So those, those were the people, those were my folks.

We were shutting down the five freeway. We were traveling to Sacramento for biotech conventions and planning actions. I was arrest, I, we have different terms within, direct action and rapid response work, which is like arrestable or non arrestable. Um, and so I was often open to being arrested.

Not because I was like excited about being arrested, but also because a lot of my work that I was doing was surrounding aspects of, like white heteronormative privilege. Um, I carry a lot of privilege with me when I move into spaces and I understand that I’m gonna be treated differently based on what action I might, carry out versus somebody else in a different position, in different body.

And so, yeah, so those were a lot of the spaces that I was in. So I’m, to say that I’m moving very differently. It’s like an understatement. Um, but I mean, it was interesting in, in 2020 when, the movement for Black Lives was really taking off. And we were, you know, it was, I feel it was such, the combination of all the things we were, a lot of us were home.

The COVID Pandemic really highlighted a lot of those, inequities. There was a moment that I was like sitting in, my room upstairs, and I can see, I can see the Coronado Bridge from like my window. And the five freeway was being shut down by activists. And they had rushed in on all of the, on-ramps, and they were shutting down the Corona Bridge and they were shutting down the freeway.

And I was, um, my role was to sit at home on my computer and monitor various, like police channels. So I’m like sitting there nursing my, um, you know, one and a half year old, um, monitoring police chats and then, you know, sending messages to the people who were on the ground. And I’m like, it was just a full circle moment, the fact that I could actually see them from my house.

And I just, I could feel, I could feel the conflict in my body. I could feel the tension in my body, and it had to be like a constant reminder of like, this work is important.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Lea: This work is important and I, you know, I look down at my kid and this work is important. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Lea: When I was opening the Rubber Rose, it was, I opened in 2006 and it was through a lot of conversations from folks in the early two thousands, you know, having that commentary like, oh, the hippies did nothing.

And then really realizing that. We are only as strong as our interpersonal relationships. And so the conceptualizing and the creation of a feminist sex shop that would be a space for exploration of relation to one another was really from this idea of like, oh, maybe we are just supposed to think about how, how we are in relationship, how we have sex with each other, how we form alliances with one each other.

How we open up and close off relationships in different ways. Um, and so I do often talk about that. It was funny sort of opening the rubber rose was like a, a, a nod back to Oh, okay. My mother’s generation. I, I I see, I see some work that was done there. You know? And, um, and it was really about how do you know how are we in relation with one another?

Um, because even in a few short years of doing that really intense direct action work, I was already able to see so many relationships that had been shattered.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Lea: Through the way that we hurt when we’re hurt. Mm-hmm. Um, through the way that we kind of pick apart things that could be collaborative, um, when we’re coming from a harmed space, how we inflict harm on one another when we’re carrying all of our baggage with us, as we all do.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Lea: Yeah.

Becky: This has been a thread that’s really been, alive in me lately. So we were texting recently about the podcast from Dean Spade Love in a Fucked Up World I feel like what Dean is, is doing is bringing that awareness to our movement work is about our relationships.

Lea: That’s right.

Becky: But rooted in the movement space. And I’ve been reflecting on, that’s kind of a central thesis of my work is about our relationships and how we can strengthen our relationship with ourselves and, and our community members and our family so that we can join movement work.

So I feel like when I listened to, to Dean and when I listened to you speak right then, it feels like a lots of people are coming to the same awareness from different, perspectives, and we need all those perspectives, and like we’ve been talking so much about community, like we need to be in local community, and I’ve been really reflecting on I don’t know how to naturally be in community.

It’s like, we say it as like, it’s this thing that everyone knows how to do. And that hasn’t been my experience, you know? And so like you’re, I’m hearing you speak about movement spaces where harm can be caused, you know, if the internal work isn’t, I, I’m putting, I’m not, these weren’t your words, but this is what I sensed.

It’s like mm-hmm. If we’re in movement spaces or if we’re in communities and not doing the relational work of understanding our triggers, understanding the harm that we bring, the biases we bring, um, then the community that we create is just gonna be replicating harm. So, um, yeah. It’s been a really, a live thread for me lately.

It’s like how to be in community and recognizing, I can’t be the only one out of billions of people on this planet who don’t know how to be in community and have to learn those skills.

Lea: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know. Prentis Hemphill talks about this a lot as well, where we can only practice community in community.

We can only practice relating in relationship, and yet how do we get to those places of beginning that? And I think that, as the way that we interact with one another changes and it changes more and more rapidly, we have to figure out what those new ways of connecting can look like.

I mean, I think that like through spaces of social media, there can be a feeling of disconnection for some people or an uncertain way, of moving, is this the right way to reach out or is this how, how do I respond? Or whatever else. And so there’s definitely, I feel a push towards, you know, community IRL.

Mm-hmm. Like actually seeing people in real life. Um, and also, you know, the complications of the COVID-19 pandemic really also is like an isolating factor as well. And so I, I feel. That we are all relearning ways of building community from where we are. So some people are building it in those online spaces.

Some people are really trying to find those connections through those social spaces. Some people are really trying to get back out and get into community with people, and there is no roadmap of how to do it because it’s something that we have been doing as humans for a very long time. And then all of a sudden there has been sort of this disconnect.

Mm-hmm. Where now we’re staring at screens and we’re staring at computers and we’re not, we’re not sure how to do the relating thing. So often we talk about, or we hear people talk about, and we also talk about like, oh yeah, exactly what you’re saying. We need to build community. We need to find the ways that we need to connect.

And I’m just gonna share like, some tangible things because I think that that’s always what’s missed. But it’s like you can say hello to your neighbor when you are walking to your car. Like you can ask and try and remember the person’s name who makes you coffee. If you go to a coffee shop often you can say hi to the bus driver if it’s your same driver every single time.

You can make like these small, tiny, little connections. Because once we start making those little ones, we get braver and each time we make a new connection, it’s a little bit more bravery and it’s a little bit more sturdy on our feet when we say hi to the next person. So maybe you can practice waving it to your neighbor every time you go to the car.

And, you know, maybe in six months you can say, Hey, I made this soup and I made entirely too much because I just kept trying to adjust the flavor. And do you, you know, a long rambling introduction of, would you like some, can I share my food with you? You know? And then the next time you see them they say, oh, I shared it with this person.

You know, and then, and then slowly those connections come back and I think it’s, we forget that that’s how we do it.

Becky: I mean, I’m thinking of you. Yeah, yeah. I’m, I’m thinking of Christina this whole time. ‘cause you show me this, like, we were talking a couple episodes about, you know, sharing a flower with the delivery driver who brings your groceries when, when it comes. So I’ve learned this through watching you, Christina and others.

Tarra’s actually pretty good at this. And I recognize and honor it is hard sometimes. It’s simple as a wave, but we’ve gotten so disconnected when I see my neighbor. We have, I live in the country, so we don’t have a TI don’t have a ton of activity around me, but our neighbor across the street. I have, I feel activation in my body just seeing him there.

Like with the anticipation I’m of, I’m gonna have this in, uh, have to have an interaction and you know why that’s for my therapist. But, you know, it’s, it’s the, you called that, you called that up beautifully. It’s like one little thing. Okay. Start waving. So, which I do now, you know, and then we bring soup, which we do now, but it, you do have to build slow and there’s nothing wrong with

Lea: that.

Yeah. You have to build it.

Becky: Yeah.

Lea: Yeah. And there’s nothing wrong with the scaffolding of it, because I think that, and I think that we have to say that out loud and remind people that there’s nothing wrong with the building of it because we, we live in a world that is increasingly more and more, actually, I won’t say it that way.

We are aware of more and more ways that we are unsafe. Mm-hmm. Because I think that the world has always been very unsafe. And I think that sometimes we talk about it in this way, that it has becoming more and more unsafe. And this is just like my, my socio sociology brain. Um, we are actually like significantly a less dangerous world than we have been in centuries past.

Um, like we don’t have like daily beheadings in different places, you know, like all over the entire world. Like we just have it in some places now. It’s, you know, the charts are like trending towards. Less violent. Um, but we are hyper aware of the violence and we are hyper aware of the ways that, that humans harm each other, in such a way that, that having a stranger come to you and start speaking to you, or having you as a stranger, going and speaking to another person feels incredibly unsafe.

Mm-hmm. And that’s fine. And so the scaffolding is so important. And also like, just to speak to the thing that you’re saying, you know, when you’re in a more isolated space, sometimes that is your safe space. And so sometimes those scaffoldings are in online communities or they’re in, you know, phone conversations or, or book clubs or places for, you know, I always love to remind people that there is different inroads to the ways that we build community.

You can be an anonymous user on a Reddit thread and like, that’s so important. You know,

Christina: I was born in 1986 and my dad, I remember, so I have, um, an almost 9-year-old and twins who are almost six. So my kids like split your kids’ age. Oh. And um, and I remember talking to my dad when I was pregnant with my son, who’s the one who’s almost nine. And I said, were you also totally freaked out about bringing a kid, like bringing me into the world in 1986?

And he was like, yeah, it was a scary time. Yeah. Yeah. And so I don’t know if I’ve said this on this podcast or not. I feel like I’ve said it to Becky before in real life, but, um, it’s always, there’s always that feeling. Um, mm-hmm. And I also just like, I don’t self-identify as an activist like you do. So this is such a cool conversation for me to hear.

And you’d probably tell me all these different ways that I am an activist, but I, you know, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t self identify as that. And, what you’re saying about being like, the way that we seed the world we want to live in, and you speak about this so beautifully, is, is the same fabric that I’m weaving beneath my feet too.

And so when you’re saying, here’s how we actually make community is by actually meeting each other in real life, if we feel safe to do so, and, and. I’m pointing these same things out to people in my world too. Like, don’t be afraid to ask someone for a stick of butter. Don’t be afraid to walk up and do these things.

And Becky’s right, every time if we get a grocery delivery, sometimes here, if we don’t have the bandwidth to like actually go to a store, I will, actually cut a flower from the garden and make sure that I do it before these people leave. And I always walk up and I say, this is for you. And it’s, it’s, it’s like, what this is for me.

You’re, you’re looking at me and I’m like, yes, thank you. You really helped my day and this I want you to have. Um, yeah. And you know, I would also be like, my name’s Christina. Here are my kids. I really love my life. Like what do you have to tell me? But I, but like,

Lea: yes, yes,

Christina: I get that they now have to go and like meet some other people who will think that their wallpaper.

But it’s so important to meet a human with your own humanity as often as you possibly can. Absolutely. I’m so happy you’re here. It, it just makes me so, um, I mean, I knew that like, whoever Becky is like enthusiastically wanting to have a conversation is, is a wonderful human being. But, but hearing you speak about your experience and the, the groundedness I feel from you and the clarity that I feel from you, and also, just like the, like the, the sweeping fairness and understanding with which you approach your life is, really something to hear.

Thank you. I’m glad you’re showing up in the world the way that you are. And I see the posters behind you and I see that this is like a lifelong calling. Um, and I also love picturing you as the 8-year-old laying in front of a bulldozer and a marsh because there’s a part of me that is that too. Like I see myself in you in that.

Um, but it’s so clear that you were born into a situation that like served your calling too, because you could have chosen another path and it’s, you have not.

Lea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Thank you for those reflections. Like truly Thank you for those reflections. I was thinking about, um. And if I get this wrong, tell me, you make art.

Yeah. You make beautiful art, right? You were, yes. Um, and often your art is in public spaces more, or you’ve a chance to do more. Okay.

Christina: Yeah.

Lea: I wanted to weave this piece in because as we were talking about it, it was just, it kind of ke keeps nudging at me. I have a lot of, um conversations like this with another friend of mine who’s an incredible artist.

Um, I’ll just say she’s an artist. She’s, she doesn’t make physical art, but she creates spaces and, music and, and all of that. Um, and she often feels really, really lost, in the ways that the world is sort of just like throwing, tossing us all sort of adrift in these boats. Um, and I just, I keep reminding her what I keep hearing over and over again about how art is, is something that is so necessary to reground us and to re bring us back into, um, moments of joy and, and sort of snap us back into this moment.

Um. In her case, she creates like soundscapes and, and music, compilations. And so people can really, and people say this to her, they, they fall deeply into her mixes and just like for a time are sort of buoyed right by that. And I think about your pieces that I’ve seen and in public spaces, that that also is that connection, right?

You are passing by and somebody else is glancing at the work. And as you pass by, you’re also seeing this work. You know, and just saying to the other person, isn’t it incredible how the light comes through that piece?

Christina: Yes.

Lea: Like, isn’t it incredible? And the other person, the team goes, I was just marveling at it.

And then, and then, you know, you get to say like, so excited that the sun is out today. And, and you know, I hear it’s gonna rain tomorrow and like, ah, this is so beautiful. I can’t believe this work is here. Right? Mm-hmm. And so, especially public art, especially like the ways that we get to interact with things that suddenly like snap us into that joy for a moment, that get to buoys those, facilitate the connections and those facilitate the building of community.

And then maybe somebody else comes and says, oh, let’s meet at the fountain next to where, the, the copper pieces are, or something like that, or whatever, right? And then all of a sudden it’s now a meeting place and then it’s a, and, and just that’s the scaffolding too. And I just, I wanted to bring that in because I kind of just kept.

Nudging at me in a way. So, yeah. Yep.

Christina: You nailed it. That’s totally it. I mean, even this particular piece that you’re referring to with like the water that goes behind these bronze pieces in a public place, I went to photograph it or something after it was done and like the fences were all off. And, when I was there, there was an art school student in a photography class with who I’m pretty sure was her boyfriend, and they were taking photos of the way that the light moved on this work.

And I sat there and I watched her see, wow, this is actually making me a little emotional, but I watched her see this work that was a culmination of so much of my time and love for the world and energy and willingness to share myself fully. And she was wondering in awe about it for a photography class in art school.

And I stopped after enjoying this. Like, I, I enjoyed it as an audience member. And I walked up to her and I said, I have been where you have been and I cannot believe that you are photographing my work right now for your. Photography class, like this is such a full circle moment for me, and I want you to know that where you’re standing is so close to me still.

Lea: Yeah.

Christina: And this is so special. And, um, I wasn’t like, I did not have tears in my eyes. I just had like this incredible joy for her in sharing this experience with myself 15 years ago. That’s right. And it was incredibly powerful. And that piece is literally called noticing, which

the whole

Lea: 0.0, it’s so good. Yes. It’s the whole point. It’s,

Christina: it’s the whole point.

Lea: And that is the whole point. I mean, I know that obviously you named your podcast that as well. And it is the whole point. It is seen and to be seen.

I totally got emotional listening to it because I think that that’s such like a powerful moment. And I also had this thought while you were saying the closeness, to be having a conversation with her and saying, you were so close to where I am. I am so close to where you are. And I think that when we talk about organizing and when we talk about activism and things like that.

And this, again, I, I love that you brought in the, the, your, your job with the canvassing company because I think that this is often the disconnect that happens. That we are often very removed from the thing that we think that we’re doing organizing work for, or that we’re doing charity for. And that removal creates a disconnect that allows us to think that we are not close.

And so when you start to move closer and you start to do the work in your community and you start to, actually, and this was just recently on Dean, Dean Spade was just talking about this, I think it was in the episode with Andrea Richie, who is a phenomenal organizer, activist, lawyer, phenomenal writer.

They were talking about really the hyper localization of doing organizing work. there are always people starving near you. There are always people unhoused near you. You may be the person who needs assistance near you. Right? And so when we come closer, we can see that, you know. What’s that phrase?

Like, barely by the grace of God, I, you know, I mm-hmm. Go, I, or whatever that phrase is or whatever. Like, there is only a slight deviation that I am here and you are here.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lea: And so when, for me, that’s what I feel is so important about doing, organizing locally and saying hello to your neighbor and saying hi to the rest because the closeness is, is often so much more important.

And the work feels so much more grounded, and I think it ends up being more sustainable because we see, you know, oh, one medical emergency, I would be where you are.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Lea: Right? Um, oh, one extra little gift would’ve gotten you where I am. Would one little extra piece that helps me would’ve gotten me to where they are up there, right?

Mm-hmm. Um, whereas when we have these things where we’re, we’re sort of tossing our funds or our money to this thing that feels far off or whatever, it ends up not being as sustainable, because there is a separation and we have this superiority about, oh, well I’m, you know, I’m not that,

it’s so funny, the dean, Dean Spade says this too, in that podcast, he was like, not to say don’t send money to things that are happening in far off places, because if you don’t, you know, whatever. But like, but like things like, you know, these larger nonprofits that are sort of vaguely supporting these things far away, right?

There is still direct, mutual aid projects that you can do with people far away, that are making direct impacts. And I think that’s important. whether it’s in connection, whether it’s in witnessing art, whether it’s in witnessing each other, whether it’s in noticing how the light moves, whether it’s in noticing that there’s a person that needs support that’s standing next to you.

Mm-hmm. Noticing the breathing of the person in line behind you and turning and asking if you’re okay. You know? Yes. The ways that, yeah, the ways that, that we, we can show up for each other and have to just be reminded that the bravery is there to do it, and also that the bravery is there to be witnessed in doing it.

Yes. Like, I’ve had a really hard few years and I still go out and I’m trying to find ways out into, you know, community, not necessarily organizing or activism, but like, community art events or, you know. Being with other humans, listening to music or whatever else. And I have moments where people are like, how are you?

And I just am like, oh, I’m gonna start crying. I’m having a hard time. And then I often like, have cried a lot and these last couple years, you know? And so the bravery that it takes to actually answer truthfully or to answer, you know, with, with a real, like thoughtful responses. I’m having a really hard time and this is why.

And having somebody meet you with, oh, I I I’ve been where you’re mm-hmm. The closeness again,

Becky: it’s really striking me as you say that like, this piece of the bravery is so important because when you were talking about, the, the person that’s starving in our community, the, the unhoused person and how close we are to them, I think that can also be a source of activation, right?

That’s a, that’s a real source of, of, and by activation, I mean however that shows up in your body, but it could be fear, it could be whatever. And, I intuit that. A lot of time. That’s what keeps us from engaging in those spaces because what you’re talking about, even answering that question of how are you doing, answering it honestly when you’re not doing so well is uncomfortable.

And that takes Yeah. Bravery. And it takes, a level of tolerance within your own system to stay with the discomfort. And that’s the internal work that I encourage people to do, is to notice the activation and, and I’m speaking for myself. I feel it. Yeah. If I pass someone who’s, I think this is why I did need to live in the country to protect my safe space a little bit, to just, I have a very sensitive system.

And when I am encountered with someone who’s unhoused, it hits me very deeply. I don’t think it hits me as fear. I think it hits me as interconnection

Lea: yeah.

Becky: And I notice if I don’t have the capacity to actually feel that and be with that, it makes me wanna turn away. Mm-hmm.

And it makes me not want to say, Hey, do you need anything? We are social creatures.

We want to be in community, we want to be in relation, and it’s challenging. The, the thing that that has stuck with me recently is Chani Nicholas was talking about community and she was like, community’s annoying. Like, we’re all annoying humans, you know?

Lea: Yeah.

Becky: And being in community means being with people who annoy you and knowing that you are annoying them, and that’s community and that’s uncomfortable.

So we have to get comfortable with discomfort.

Lea: There was just like a couple things that, that came up in different ways. One is the avoidance of the thing that feels really hard seeing somebody that’s unhoused.

Seeing somebody that’s struggling with mental health, seeing somebody that’s hungry. And I immediately thought of the ways that we keep childbirth secret so that people will continue to like, have babies. Because if you knew or if you were in the room, supposedly you would never do it. Right? And I think that there is like a tool of capitalism here that is like, don’t interact with this person who’s unhoused, because then you’ll see that capitalism is only existing on a thread.

That, that phrase, you are much closer to being homeless than you are to being, you know, a millionaire. Or I think the phrase is like a billionaire, but it’s, it’s actually like a millionaire. Like you were much closer to being homeless than, than having two months of rent in your pocket.

And I think that the, the work of capitalism has almost done the work of like keeping childbirth secret. That same thing of like, don’t tell them how hard it is or else they won’t keep having babies. Don’t tell them that, you know, their position in this capitalist rent society is so tenuous that they could almost end up there.

They’ll figure out a different way to do it, right? And so it’s like when you invite the world into understanding what it means to birth children into this world, you actually do start to think of a different way to exist in this world, you start to think about the ways that the systems would actually need to be different in order for us to actually be, cared for properly, to move in this world as mothers and as children.

And that we would actually, ideally change the way that the world functions because the way that the world treats children is just horrific. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, and so I think that capitalism functions in all of those arenas to keep us siloed in order to not find the connection, because in finding the connection is the catalyst for the change.

Mm-hmm.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Lea: Right?

Becky: Yeah.

Lea: And I’ve heard this said a lot of times there’s activism and, you know, somebody standing on the corner, the sign that’s, you know, you’re doing activism, but then there’s organizing. And organizing is a concerted effort to connect with one another is to create change.

Right. Um, Alicia Garza talks about this in, her book, the Purpose of Power. And so, organizing is that intention. It is the thing that if we. Connected with the person on the corner, we would see that there are threads that can weave us together that can make some system stronger. If we connect with the midwives in our community who are supporting the birthing people in our communities, we would start to see that there are threads that can stitch us together that will support the community as a whole and lift us.

Right? That is organizing work. And when it’s done incredibly hyper locally, it has such impact that it then does that thing where, you know, as a parent you’re like, fill your own cup so that you can pour into others or whatever else, right? Like you are filling the cup of your community so that that community can rise together.

So that the work that you can do then if you choose to push out into the community next to yours, into another space that you now have tools, oh, this worked here. What’s working in your city? Right. Um, like I think on the, on the topic of like houselessness, there’s, in Houston, I think it was, there was a, they did this really intentional housing first initiative where they just got people into housing.

There was no, you know, you have to fill out these, you have to be sober, you have to do these doctor’s appointments, you have to do this, whatever else. And they just got people into houses. And I remember listening to this interview, with a person that went through the program and he was talking about how he was going and meeting the social worker and he was getting on the list, um, to get housing.

And then he was like, all right, you’re all set. When we find a place, I’ll let you know. And he was like, okay. Like, you know, I, I, I think my mailbox expired, whatever. And she was like, well, you, you hang out a lot on 16th and Broadway, right? And he was like, yeah, yeah, I’m usually there, you know? And she was like, yeah, I’ve seen that’s, that’s why I, why I found you remember when we first met?

And she’s like, I’ll come find you.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Lea: And he was like, okay. You know, and it took some time, I think it was like a month or two later, he said in the interview, and she found him because she, as a social worker in this program had done the work to notice Yes. The people on the street and know that that was that one person and this is this other person.

And that’s, you know, Sierra and that’s, you know, Monty, and that’s Michael and over there is Brenda, blah, blah, blah. And she had done the work and so she knew where he would be staying, right? And then he gets housed and so that sort of hyperlocal noticing, right? Then that can be transferred, oh, what they’re doing in Houston might work in la Oh, but we have this different way that we’re doing this.

Maybe we can bring these things together. And so then that’s when our organizing, when we’re doing it on a really local level and we’re making those connections, can then have those webs that sort of spread out a little bit further. And then this is a total pivot, but the last thing I was thinking about when you said that you wanted to move out into the country.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Lea: Um, I don’t know if either of you have read Parable of the Sewer, but there’s. The main character, has a condition where she feels very deeply, like to the point where she is debilitating. Like if she watches somebody be hurt, she experiences the pain. And so, it’s like a post-apocalyptic era and people have been shot and she’s seen them, or they’ve been killed or whatever else, and she literally will be knocked out by the pain and she’ll be unable to walk, unable to do anything.

And I think that for people who feel incredibly deeply, like such as yourself, Becky, there is a need to do a level of removing so that the work that you do is possible. Yeah. So like in the book, right, Olamina, um, if she sees that something bad is about to happen, she’ll turn her whole body and she’ll move into a different space and she’ll, and she’ll run.

And then oftentimes, like she has other people who know that she can’t witness the thing, and then they will run to protect her so that she can then protect these children that they need to continue to usher along the road and get to a safe place, right? And so there’s ways that we have to pivot and move and, right, like I was saying at the opening of this, I had to figure out ways to pivot and move so that I could continue to do work in a way that felt safe, that wouldn’t inflict any more harm on myself or on my child or on my family unit in any way.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Lea: And I think it’s important. We talk about capacity? Yes. When we’re talking about organizing and activism, because I think when we’re be honest with our levels of capacity, we can actually move more confidently and with more bravery in the spaces that we know we might be able to affect change.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Lea: Yeah.

Becky: Thank you for saying that. And also for seeing me, I’m always very grateful to be seen. And uh, it’s interesting, I literally just finished Parable of the Sower. I did the audiobook, which I highly recommend. The narrator’s amazing. And I had started it a couple years ago but then kind of stopped ‘cause it was feeling a little too, the apocalyptic side of it was feeling a little close to home.

Yeah.

Lea: A friend. And it supposedly takes place in 2020,

Becky: like now. Yeah. It’s like 20, 27 ish. Yeah. But a friend of mine was like, no, no, keep going, keep going. And, and I, I did. And it, it is incredible. And it, um, it is true. We have to resource ourselves and recognize that we’re all different. We all have different capacities, we all have different, backgrounds and traumas and triggers and, and like I agree.

I, we moved to the country right before COVID just ‘cause, you know, that’s how it worked out. And if I had. My system couldn’t have taken it being in the city. But having this safety of like my safe space in nature allowed me to do incredible work internally to resource myself. It allowed me to expand my awareness of the world in ways that I wouldn’t have been able to do if I didn’t feel so physically safe.

Like mm-hmm. To understand and dive into, like you said it already, Lea, that the, it’s not necessarily that the world is more violent, it’s our access to the awareness of it that’s new. And because I was so resourced, I was able to go and look, you know, not from a That’s right. And find my, not from a i, I always wanna distinguish,

doom scrolling on in. I don’t even like that phrase. Like, getting fed from an algorithm has its purpose and it’s a tool. Getting the Daily News, has a purpose in it. It’s a tool, but what I found is that wasn’t giving me the wisdom that I really needed. So I turned to, like podcasts like Throughline is incredible.

Like giving me the history of, of this moment, you know, reading James Baldwin, like going into really trying to understand, um, what I hadn’t been seeing this whole time, but not from a place of reactivity I have found, the more I do this work, if we’re in those reactive.

Trying to keep up with the news, you know, trying to just like consume. I feel like that is a reactive perspective, and usually because we’re trying to fix it or push it away, because really taking it in, and this might not be universal, maybe it was just my experience, right? Um, but for me it was like I had to step back and get regulated and then really understand like, let me really understand the history of this country and how we got here.

Um, and I’m always filling in gaps and I’m always learning, but I, what I, what’s really striking me is I had to feel safe, physically safe to do that work because it’s so destabilizing. If you haven’t grown up laying in front of bulldozers when you’re eight and you were taught a certain version of the world, it’s so destabilizing to go into these spaces and, and learn something new.

So finding your resourcing and finding safety is so important.

Lea: And can I, and I just wanna just affirm that the destabilizing, it’s not just, it’s not just that, oh, I’m gonna see something and it’s gonna hurt my feelings.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Lea: The destabilizing is that it disallows us from acting. It dis allowss us from continuing to connect.

And so a lot of times for folks. If people are not doing that inner work to be resourced within themselves, if they are being confronted with sort of the horrors of the world for like, some of the first times, um, our, you know, innate thinking is I need to shut down and protect. Mm-hmm. And so we, we go inward more and more in a way to protect our systems and we don’t then open back up.

And so the resourcing that you’re speaking to is important because the next step in that is to then open up again and then to step out.

Becky: Yeah.

Lea: Because if we, if we stay in that destabilization space, we do not do the next step of reaching out.

Becky: Yeah.

Lea: For a lot of people, some people can be in a space of this is, this is awful.

I’m feeling totally activated and triggered and destabilized, and I’m gonna pack a bunch of lunches and I’m gonna go give them to people around me or whatever else. Right? Yeah. But not a lot of people can move and continue to then go out and resource others from a space of destabilization. And so I just wanna name that.

Mm-hmm. I think that sometimes there’s this, there’s a, there’s a culture of self care.

Becky: Yeah.

Lea: That has taught us. You know, in these last, like decade or so that like, oh, there’s a lot going on. We need to regulate our system. And it’s like, okay, sure. Yes. And there’s a next step after the re system is regulated, you go out and you do the things that need to be done in order to make the thing that so destabilized you, not continue to happen to somebody else again.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Lea: Right? Um, and so we’ve, we’ve, I feel like we’ve gotten to a space where we can like bubble bath away our like emotional trauma response to seeing, you know, children murdered by, you know, forces across the world, right? Mm-hmm.

Becky: Yeah.

Lea: Um,

Becky: I I, I love it. Thank you for naming this. Yeah. Yeah. I, because I live in, I, I feel like we are being asked to hold multiple truths at once, right now, so much because, um, and I feel this, this is why you’re always the angel devil on my shoulder when I’m doing any of my work because, uh, I, I know I’m like, I am very squarely in, I want to help individuals resource themselves, regulate their nervous system, develop presence.

So that they can come back out into the world. And it’s, it’s so nuance. Even the conversation around shutting out uh, Instagram or shutting out the, you know, um, it’s very nuanced because you could take that and somewhat if I said, protect your system, you know, don’t get on Instagram. You could, someone could take that as I’m telling you, go put your head in the sand, you know, don’t pay attention.

And that’s absolutely not what I’m saying. And what a lot of people are saying, it’s both true, that you are being invited into, if you want to, seed a more, equitable loving and sustainable world, you’re being invited into regulate your nervous system because then you will be moving from a place of clarity so you know what your right action is.

And this moment is inviting all of us into action’s. This is not the time to bubble bath the world away because bubble bathing, people in comfort who have bubble bath their the world away for quite a long time is why the world is getting so loud, you know?

Lea: That’s right. Yeah.

Christina: I’m curious about something, and I don’t know, like if you feel comfortable speaking about this, but, um, you have a child, how did becoming a parent, how did that, like how did, how did you experience the shift from the before and after of being a parent in an activist space?

Like, did it change anything for you? I know, I know you said you have more protections around, but was there anything, I mean, like I’m speaking as someone who knows what it feels like to not be a parent and then be one and all of the things that you have to figure out, in yourself once that happens and all of the demands, especially, um, as someone in a female body, all of the demands of what are asked of us in that moment.

Um, did that, did that shift anything for you? And did you have to, um, did you have to sort of bubble up a little bit in that? Or were, are you just so steeped in this that you were like, Nope, I’m gonna rock on,

Lea: I think it’s, it’s, it’s been a little bit of both. I have had the privilege of having a lot of young people in my life. I am I’m the youngest, so I, my dad had, has three other daughters, who are all older than me. And so I have a pretty big crew of nibbling, that I’ve gotten to be around for a long time.

Um, and who sort of like witnessed me, you know, my, my youngest nibbling is a senior in high school and the oldest, now has a three-year-old, you know, so, mm-hmm. Um, I think that I got a lot of practice talking about what I do, and being vocal and being open. And sometimes the work that I do in the world, like surrounding, being present with queer identity and being, outspoken about, uh, you know, dismantling systems of white supremacy and things like that have, paved the way for, you know, my nephew who’s a white man, to marry a black woman, for them to have a biracial child and for me to continue to hold space within my predominantly white family, for, you know, my, my now niece by marriage, I dunno what you call that, but she’s, I’m.

Love her so much, you know, um, to know that she’s safe with me and will be, I will, I will use my voice in rooms that she’s not in to protect her space. Right? It’s given, my youngest the ability to show up, in a changing gender space, right? To say for a while that they’re identifying under a different name, that they’re identifying under a different gender.

And for me to, be the person, you know, the auntie that’s in the room that will say boldly what maybe their, at their 14-year-old self or 15-year-old self don’t really have the bravery to say, right? So I think that, I think that my nibblings have prepared me in a lot of ways to have a child. But because of that I oftentimes question the age appropriateness of some of my conversations.

You know, we live in a predominantly Latinx neighborhood, and you know, there’s a lot of stickers that say like, fuck ice, or, you know, ya, BAA or whatever. And my kid has, um, lovingly adopted the F word since like age three. Um, and, um. You know, I’ve had to have a lot of conversations with her about it, but she, you know, she’ll like read the signs and she, you know, she’s like, fuck

ice. You know, it’s like, what’s ice? And I’m like, oh, it’s, it’s an acronym. It stands for immigration control enforcement, whatever. And, um, you know, and we get to have really, I think my proximity to where I am. We also have a lot of really important conversations. Her really close friend was, detained when she came back.

Um, you know, and they put this poor 8-year-old in an immigration room, separated her from her older brothers that she went on a trip. She went, they went on a trip, to go see family. And her parents couldn’t go because they are undocumented, but she was born here. She has her paperwork, and Sure.

You know, some people will say, oh, well, they were probably making sure that, you know, there is work that border control does to make sure that young girls aren’t being trafficked or whatever else. And it’s like, these are clearly her siblings, they all look alike. Um, you know, and they forced information out of her.

They said, where do you live and what’s your address and what’s your parents’ names and what’s your phone number? And here’s this 8-year-old sitting alone in this room. You know, her mom was telling me when she got back, and I was just like in tears thinking about it, you know? Yeah. And, and you know, we were speaking in Spanish and so Nava could only kind of understand like a couple different things.

But she was like, what happened? And you know, and so I talked to her about it because here’s this experience that her friend is gonna have. I’m not gonna let her friend experience this on her own.

Christina: Yeah.

Lea: Right. And so to an extent there is like a proximity privilege. I dunno if I need to say, say it well to say it like that, but there’s proximity opportunities for us to continue and to talk about that, that exists there.

Um, but it does feel, I, I do oftentimes like have to think about and pause, or explain my actions a little bit differently. So, like as an example, and this is like about age appropriateness, just as far as like conceptualizing. Um, but, uh, when during the election cycle, my mom was talking about Kamala Harris and like my ex-wife was talking about her and you know, everybody was talking about, you know, we could have our first woman president, yada, yada, yada, all this other stuff.

And leading up to the election, I don’t know if either of you heard of it, and I feel like it came out entirely too late, but it would’ve been a really, an amazing strategy. But there’s a strategy called Vote Swap. Did either of you hear about this? No. It was this idea that if you’re like in a solidly blue, so within the work of electoral politics, the work never really ends in order to attempt to break the two party system.

Right? So even in a highly important election year, like Kamala Harris versus Trump, right? As the Democratic nominee and the Republican nominee, there is still the work of third party systems that are attempting to continue to break the two party system.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Lea: Right? So like working Families Party was doing a lot of work leading up to it.

Um, there was a lot of people, talking about that there’s, you know, there’s people on the peace and freedom party, there’s people in the Green Party, there’s like, and there was all this language around like, no, we just have to, we have to barrel behind the Democratic nominee because that’s gonna have the most impact.

Otherwise we’re gonna split our vote and it’s gonna be diluted. Right? There’s a concept of vote swapping, so you’re in a solidly red state and you are like a radical activist and there’s no way that you would vote for the cop Kamala Harris.

The Democratic Party nominee, like you’re over here trying to vote for, um, you know, uh, a third party candidate that really holds your values or whatever else, right? If somebody in a solidly blue state will commit to you that they’re gonna vote for your third party candidate of your choice

Becky: mm-hmm.

Lea: In your red state, you’ll commit to voting for the, the democratic candidate.

Even though that doesn’t align with your values, you know, somewhere somebody is getting a vote. Because for third party politics, it’s really just about a threshold of needing to get above like a 4% mark in order for funding then to allow that third party system to even get in the running in a way that has any major impact.

Right. Okay. So there’s this whole strategy. Um, so I did a vote swap and I, well I did a vote swap ‘cause I thought it was brilliant, but also I voted third party consistently. I only once have voted for the Democratic nominee, and it was when Hillary was running and I was like angrily voting for her, but realizing the importance of it.

Right. And it, had there been something like this vote swap concept, I would’ve probably done it then. Um, but I voted for the, the Democratic socialist candidates, which were, um, Claudia and Haina. Mm-hmm. Um, out of New York and spacing. I’m like, were the, that was their names, right? I’m like, I was trying to remember their slogan.

Um, anyway, election day comes and goes and Nava saw my I vote sticker and she goes, oh. Did you vote for Kamala Harris? And I was like, oh shit, I didn’t talk about this. And I was like, I could in this moment lie and just be like, yep, fingers crossed. Like, you know, she’s gonna be our next president. I was feeling really hopeful.

Anyway, in that moment, I think a lot of us were. Mm-hmm. And I was like, no, I’m not gonna lie. And I was like, well, actually I did this other strategy. There’s a lot of different people that are running. I voted for these other two women. Our state in California, we have something called the Electoral Process.

And I’m like going into it, right? She’s at the time, like five, all she hears is You voted for Trump.

Becky: Ooh.

Lea: And I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no. She’s like, but you, did you not want Kamala Harris to win? And I was like, no, I do want her to win. Then why didn’t you vote for her? And I’m like, because I was trying to use this strategy so that like, maybe next time there’s another election, we don’t just have this like choice of like, you know, somebody who’s gonna build more prisons anyway and whatever else.

And not to say that it was like, I, I’m not necessarily like the, you’re a choice of two evils person, but I, I, Kamala Harris would’ve been a wonderful and phenomenal president. And I wish that she was our president and she should have been. But I would’ve continued my activist work to continue to like, right?

Like for a lot of us in more radical spaces, like it’s about choosing the fighter. We can fight. Like Kamala Harris would’ve been the fighter that we could have fought against, right? So like, we would’ve fought to get her in office, but that we could then fight to hold her accountable to do X, y, z aspects of changes.

Whereas like having Trump as a president isn’t even a fight that you can fight. There’s like, not even an entry point, right?

Becky: Yeah.

Lea: Anyway, so I don’t know if that’s a very long-winded state way of saying like, sometimes, like, and she still, she’s like, my mom didn’t vote for Kaha, she wanted Trump, you know?

And I’m like, well,

Becky: what’s striking me is as you’re telling this about your child. I’m like, that’s probably the level of nuance that most adults can, can, like most adults can’t hold that nuance.

Lea: People were so upset at me. Yeah. They’re like, what? And I’m like, California still went blue. Like even if I didn’t vote,

Becky: yeah.

Lea: He would’ve won Ca California, you know?

Becky: But we’ve been so conditioned with this, like blue and red left and right, and, and, and the more we, that’s the like. Dysregulation getting captured by these systems that want to keep us in, in opposition, when life is so much more nuanced, like we’re being called into nuance.

And, and that’s where like bringing it back to, well, what can I do in this moment? Get hyperlocal and like Yeah. Have nuanced conversations with your neighbor. This is my new mantra. Like, I wanna be in community with people who love me and those who don’t, people who agree with me and those who don’t. And that means I’m necessarily going, probably gonna get triggered, you know?

Right. Like,

Lea: yeah.

Becky: I mean, but how are we ever gonna shift something if I can’t have a conversation with someone? Uh, like we have to have broad conversations and can I have a conversation with a neighbor who fundamentally believes that my queerness will end in me going to hell ca can I have that conversation?

Well, if I’m resourced, I can. And then what might come of that? You know what, either way I’m safe. I’m not going to hell. I can’t go somewhere. I don’t believe in.

Lea: Right. Right. I mean, there’s that. And also, I mean, I do, I do think that, um, yeah, I think once, once we are coming from a resource space, we can make those decisions for ourself.

And also, you know, Adrian Marie Brown talks about this, that she talks about our layers of. Of relation. And so she talks about, for example, that there is a very large section of her white family that believes that her as a biracial child shouldn’t even exist, right? Mm-hmm. And so she continues to stay in community with them, but mostly just via proximity to her mother.

And so her mother’s connection of relation to those family members, her sisters, her aunts, et cetera, is the way that Adrian then can stay, connect, Adrian and her sisters can then stay connected to this family, right? Mm-hmm. They aren’t, you know, canceling that entire side of the family. You’re dead to me, whatever else.

Yes, I’ll stay in relation to you, but I won’t be in the room with you. Mm-hmm. Right? And so I do think that it’s important to think about, well, what, what is my level of safety? Can I be in this room with this person and is, is going to my neighbor’s house, going to actually really, truly feel safe? And is there some benefit to me doing so?

Mm-hmm. Um, and if there isn’t, then my level of proximity will be, I’m gonna say hi from my, from my driveway, and I’m continuing to exist in their field of vision. But that is as far as it goes, right? Yep. Um, or you know, you notice, oh, it looks like they have a kid that comes to visit them that’s maybe a child like their child grown child who’s now a queer adult, right?

And so my proximity now maybe could be a little bit closer, or like, in what ways can my existence start to show up in a different way that will then support somebody else, right? Mm-hmm. Um.

Christina: Yeah.

Lea: Yeah.

Christina: Right now, so many of us are navigating this world without a roadmap. And it’s so interesting to hear you even reflect, like you, someone who is so well versed in this way of being, are still navigating in darkness here. Um, it’s just making me think like we’re all really being asked to get comfortable not knowing what’s ahead or like how to parse it out necessarily the right or wrong way.

And, um, in this whole conversation I’ve heard you just trying to reorient yourself towards a common ground that you share with people. And I think that’s such a, it’s such a beautiful goalpost for all of us. Mm-hmm.

Lea: Hmm.

Christina: Yeah, it’s making me think there’s, like, I, I live on a street where, up the street or maybe 12 or 13 houses and I, I grew up all over. My dad was a Marine and, um, for a while, and then he retired early and we kept moving. So I moved eight times before I went to college.

So I know people in Missouri, in the boot heel of Missouri where my dad was invited to KKK meetings and did not go, but like in the nineties. This is just to set the framework of like the people that I know and can love all across our continent. Um, California, North Carolina, Utah. Like we had Mormon missionaries coming to make friends with us and stuff.

So all of these people Yeah. In this beautiful melting pot that I know and know are all just here trying to do the right thing every day. Um, up the street, there is one house, one house on this street that had a Trump sign. And I live in a mostly liberal town, but there are, there are still, it’s, it’s varied.

But this part of Maine had more Kamala signs than Trump signs, I’ll say. Mm-hmm. Um, and I go for a walk in the woods with my dog or my kids, or myself, nearby, and I found his Trump sign in the woods and I picked it up and I brought it back to him.

Becky: Ooh.

Christina: I did do that. He has, he noticed, he’s also a retired marine and he has, let me borrow his lawnmower.

When I ran out of gas, he helped my husband re side the side of our house when there was a storm coming. So I got his Trump sign and I brought it back to him. We have different views. I don’t want to be the person that laughs at the house that shows openly a view that they have that is different than mine.

Lea: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Um, it’s tricky. Yeah. The reason, the reason he, I believe that he helped side our house is because he saw my dad had a Marine, um, um, sticker on the back of his truck when he was here once. And that was the way that he had an in to this house.

I just keep thinking like, can we, can we expand our view of things and pull back enough to see every human as someone who’s just trying to show up and do the right thing?

Yeah. But it is very tricky.

Lea: Yeah. I mean, I mean it’s the, it’s the pulling back into the curiosity.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Lea: And I think then, you know, stepping into the next part, which is the braveness to express the curiosity.

Becky: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: It’s the, it’s the not dismissing people because the sign they put in their yard and having the courage, if they say something that diminishes someone else’s humanity, can you lead with curiosity and mm-hmm.

Not to tell them they’re wrong. ‘cause no one ever changes their views by someone telling them they’re wrong. But a lot of people like, and I don’t know, this comes back to safety. What do you feel safe in your body to express? But I just know that, um, we all live in a, in a system that has been designed to keep us apart and to keep us in these fighting tropes.

Um. And so many people have been lied to for so long. So you know what was programmed into them? To put up that Trump sign, to believe in that ideology.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: Um, and if we can let in just a little bit of compassion and empathy to the extent we feel safe, I’m just curious on what might that birth, if we can actually mm-hmm.

Have conversations with, and it’s so hard and you have to start where you are and where you feel safe and start with a wave. But I’m always looking to, what can that build into, um, you know, are you gonna, yeah. Who are you gonna listen to? The person who dismisses you for your sign, or the person who brings your sign back and then, you know, is willing to get curious about you.

Mm-hmm.

Lea: Yeah. And I, I’m curious in this moment, like, what would it have felt like too when you brought the sign back to say you really like this guy? You know, or like,

Christina: yeah,

Lea: I think this is, I think this is yours. I dunno if somebody pulled it off, I wanted to bring it back, but what is it, what is it about him that you believe in?

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Lea: Because I think that’s like the next step of the bravery. And I think that for those of us who carry a level of privilege and, and maybe it doesn’t feel safe if it’s your neighbor. Right. But we’re all neighbors. And I think that, like speaking to the fact that, you know, it’s, we’re three white heteronormative presenting women, like sitting here in conversation.

Our safety is, is built in and baked into white supremacy in so many ways. And so I think that, um, there is, there is a bravery that is being asked of us by those that don’t look like us to step out of the next level of comfort and, and ask those, you know, in the curiosity, it isn’t sort of, I think sometimes when we say like, getting curious with people is just, you know, like allowing for a lot of the open space.

But I think it’s also the bravery of asking the questions that actually push a further conversation, right? Mm-hmm. So, like, you know, it’s like I’ve been on a walk and, like some, some old guy, some old white guy passing me with a Trump hat, you know, and he says like, oh, nice dog. And I’m like, oh, thanks. I like that jacket. You know, the hat’s gotta go though. You know, and he is like, oh, you know, have a good day.

And I’m like, you too.

Becky: Right before the election, I had my, uh, septic pumped and this guy shows up to pump my septic. And we went quickly to talk, talking to politics. I don’t know why. And he asked me what I liked about Kamala, and I said, I don’t, I like that she’s not him.

And then I said, well, you know, I, I’m worried about him because I’m married to a woman and his ideology very much wants to take away my marriage. And there was a pause before he jumped into. I have no idea if it changed anything for him. It’s not the point, but it, the point was, I, in that one moment, did feel brave enough to say something, but not from a, you are bad, but from a, this is really what I’m concerned about as a human, at a human level, and that’s what I’m interested in.

And, and I was activated. It took a lot of bravery. It’s not my neighbor, it’s someone I would probably only see once. So maybe I felt a little braver. Um,

but I felt so good because I felt, at least in that moment, we had a genuine connection.

I made him think about the billionaires a little bit. And so who knows what that shifted, but I just believe in the culmination of all those little things. If everyone’s doing just like one tiny brave thing, those things do add up.

Lea: Yeah.

And I think similarly too, like asking somebody, you know, what is it about him that you like, oh, I think that he’s gonna, he is gonna, uh, you know, bring jobs back to America or whatever, and then the next step is like, oh, but he doesn’t really have a track record of that, like, right.

And so it, and it is about needing to be educated in, in certain ways, because otherwise the bravery isn’t there. We’re not, we don’t feel like we’re on safe ground to actually have a conversation about things. Mm-hmm. And I think that the, the really polar, huge polarization that happens in this country happens because again, we’re taught not to talk about things, right?

Like in other spaces, people have robust conversations on the corner, on the coffee shop, whatever, about, oh, this guy, you know, fact, that politician, blah, blah, blah. And this person, you were listening to them, oh, did you hear third? She was talking about that. Right? Like, other places have these robust conversations about how a country is being navigated.

Right. And in America, we have this really distinct polarization where it’s become so distinct that we’re just like, let’s just not talk about it. Let’s just like keep the peace. And we go quietly to our voting booths and we just anonymously say who we think should be in charge. And that drives us apart.

We have so much more in common with one another. I mean, it’s been said over and over and over again, especially these last few years, that we have so much more in common with one another. We have in our differences. And if we can have the bravery to step into that and really question the other person, you know, I mean, my, yeah.

My sister is a huge Trump supporter and her big thing is on anti-abortion,

you know, and I’m like, yeah. And where is the regard for life? Like, like, tell me more about how this anti-abortion stance is really doing a good service to children. Right. And so, like, it’s a, it’s about picking a little bit more and a little bit more, and, and sometimes those conversations can wait and yeah, you can work on the siding of your house together, and you can maybe sit on your front porches at some point in the summer and watch fireworks or something, and, and you can really start to connect.

And that bond, that connection lays the framework for the curiosity to be heartfelt.

Christina: Totally.

Lea: And it lays the framework for the curiosity to, to possibly create change. Mm-hmm.

Christina: Yeah.

Lea: Um, you know, I don’t, I don’t think people Yeah. You know, or, or even if it doesn’t create the possibility for them to create change if it gets really bad.

They may open the door for you Totally. If your house is on fire, right?

Christina: Yeah. Yes.

Lea: And then it’s like, you know, and at some point, you know, there’s just some common ground and some common care and compassion there.

Christina: It felt in this gesture. And this was in, um, you know, I’m thinking, I don’t actually think, I think it was the first election because it was common for vp and we had a yard sign too.

So the second election, he did not have a Trump sign in his yard, which is interesting. Interesting. So this was, this was like in the beginning years of us living here. And I was just like, in all respects, creating this framework of like, you’ve noticed my dad’s military truck thing. That’s cool. I get that now that’s your in to me.

Yeah. So here’s your yard sign back. I, and I, it didn’t feel like an appropriate thing to ask, but as the groundwork gets laid, then the curiosity can come. That’s right. Yeah. And also to be, I’m glad that you asked that question too, because it’s making me actually refre reflect on. Why I wouldn’t have said something.

It didn’t feel, it was like pretty early on. His grandchildren, it’s a multi-generation house and his grandchildren have since come and like become friendly kind of with our kids. And I’m learning more and more that actually keeping a distance is, is probably the choice I’m gonna make. Mm-hmm. For many, many reasons.

Um, but, but I love even in that, that we can both proclaim our views and still be on the same street to share resources. Yeah. And it is more of like a lay in the groundwork for I plow your, you know, driveway in the winter when your husband has an emergency appendectomy and is a firefighter and can’t be there to help you.

That’s right. You know? Mm-hmm. That’s right. Those things are, are really like when you’re talking about the fabric and the framework that we’re building and the scaffolding, all these beautiful metaphors for like what weave together to hold it all in place. This is a neighbor that I could things Yeah, absolutely.

Mm-hmm. I could totally go to him and ask for something. And I have, um,

Lea: yeah.

Christina: So,

Lea: and true and truly, I mean like for the, for envisioning a world where people are safe and cared for in a truly liberatory way. I mean, that is outside of the politics that we have created in this country. Mm-hmm. And so I think that that’s really important to name as well, that sometimes doing exactly what you’re naming, um, is all that is necessary.

In this moment, moment. And that if we’re truly being honest, it isn’t necessarily about butting up against each other at all the times as I’m saying and saying, oh, what do you like about, you know, whatever it really is. If we are dreaming in a future that’s, that’s more free, that’s more equitable, that’s more liberatory.

It is likely outside of the politics we’ve created, and it is really, truly about who your neighbors are and who the community is and how you show up. Mm-hmm. Support the people teaching your young children or the firefighters or whoever else is like actually allowing life to happen in a, in an area.

Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.

Also walking with you last time through the snow made me realize how fast of a clip I take. So all these voice memos I send you while I’m walking are like me like, okay and there was a really cute dog in the car that just passed me. But anyway, I’m like basically running, just walking. Speedy. Yeah.

This is the second half of our live conversation with our friend Ashley O’Brion (the creative genius behind our branding). In this part of the conversation we talk about knowing the rules before you break the rules. How Becky had to live corporate America to learn busyness. How Ashley used discernment to tell when it was time to go from jobs that didn’t f feel aligned.

Ashley admits that she a fear of being seen and how she’s having to get comfortable with it in order to enter the workforce with an aligned job again.

We talk about micro dosing solitude and retreat time to keep you grounded in what matters to you and protecting solo time despite the daily demands of life.

And maybe the most important question to consider - do you walk into a room and assume people like you or don’t like you?

Finally, how to use the Ho’oponopono prayer and fuck it moments to cultivate an aliveness we all aspire to.

If you would like to learn more about Ashley’s creative genius, check out her website:

ashleyobrion.com

And as always, to learn more about Christina’s art or how you can work with Becky to sculpt your own intentional life, check out our websites below:

christinawatka.com

beckydecicco.com

Episode Transcript

Becky: Hi. I wanted to respond before I listened to Christina’s response. But I just read the first line of her transcript that says she had the biggest smile on her face and I felt exactly the same way as I was listening to these. I saw them come in this morning, actually. I saw Jessie’s little picture and my heart just smiled.

Um, and I was like, I need to wait until I have the space to really listen. Um, which was just now. Because we’ve been, we’re in Maine and we just took this beautiful, incredible hike overlooking this carpet of yellows and oranges and reds, and then we saw the ocean. It was just like, my heart is exploding.

It just, it’s so beautiful. Ah, it’s all just so fucking beautiful.

That’s how I feel right now, and I’m so excited for our conversation coming up so soon. Um, yeah. Thank you for sharing. I love you. I love you both.

Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time. This episode is part two of our very special live recording with our dear friend, Ashley O’Brion. In this part of the conversation, we talk a little bit more about our history working in corporate America and what we’ve learned, what we’ve gained.

We talked about discernment and getting comfortable with being seen. Microdosing, solitude, and retreat time to keep you grounded in what matters to you. And a very important question, when you walk into a room, do you assume people like you or do you assume people don’t like you? And how you can use “fuck it” moments to cultivate an aliveness

we all aspire to. I hope you enjoy.

Ashley: I have been curious about, you mentioned that you left your job. Mm-hmm. And I don’t know that whole story.

Becky: Oh yeah. So I worked for the same company for 13 years.

I was never career driven. But I, I was in grad school and I needed some money, so I found this job on Craigslist at this, what was then a very small startup. I was employee 50. It was like really small and it felt really creative and I grew with that company.

The company grew and the company became more and more corporate ended up going public. I, I was like slowly entered this current of corporate world without even realizing it. And it was so slow that I didn’t notice all the ways I was betraying myself.

All the ways I started to put up masks. I mean, my interview, so where I started, I was in grad school for philosophy, cosmology, and consciousness. Right? Like totally different. And in the interview they did like a day in the life interview and on the lunch break I’m like chatting with this girl about taking mushrooms.

Like that’s the state I was in. Very not corporate, right? So I felt like I could be myself. And then like I said, it just kind of morphed and I started to tie my value in how I was perceived at the job. Um, and so I was there for 13 years and it was great. It was wonderful and very grateful. But I just hit a point, like we had gone public, I think the year before, and I just hit this point of like.

I can’t do this anymore. They were acquiring another company. So it was this corporate merging and like I was trying to figure out what my role was gonna be I proclaimed I wanna do this and I was so proud ‘cause it took so much energy and work to like state what I wanted to do. I expressed to my boss, um, and then he was in San Francisco, but he was visiting in New York and he was like, I wanna see you, you know, come in, we’ll have a meeting. And I’m thinking, oh, he’s gonna give me my job.

You know, I’m like so excited. I was so sick. But I went into the city anyway. And it was the complete opposite. It was like, not only are we not giving you this job, you’re actually, we need you to do this job. Which was like total step back. It wasn’t growth. Um, and it wasn’t, there’s no, there’s no villain here.

Right? It’s just, it hit me in that moment. Like, I started crying in that meeting, which is so odd, not me. Mm. And then I was taking the train back home from the city and I couldn’t stop crying. Normally I could pull it together. ‘cause I’m like, there’s people seeing me. I usually can, can control it.

I had no control. It was just like sobbing on this train. Um, and, and that was my sign. And Tara, my partner. I, I was like, I don’t know if I can do this anymore.

But I was like so scared to say it and she was like, I think you should quit. And just

started bawling, you know, to be held in that space. Like, she knew exactly what I needed to hear. She knew I couldn’t say it. Um, so I quit. I was supposed to fly to an offsite two days later, and I was like, I’m not going to the offsite and I need to talk to you.

Yeah, I quit and it, um, we took a trip to San Diego where Tara’s parents are, and that’s where I had my last week. We were by the ocean in Ocean Beach in San Diego. And so it was all celebratory, right?

And then you come back home and it’s like, Ooh,

Christina: here we are.

Becky: Here we are. Mm-hmm. And we had kind of had this, Tara quit her job for a year right after we got married, so we kind of had a little bit of familiarity with, taking a break.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so the plan was I would take a year and not think about anything and not like plan anything and just have that space.

Um, and it was a roller coaster of like, I don’t know what to do with myself. What really became evident to me is I have this amazing supportive partner. We have set up our life. Like it wasn’t even that much of a financial strain. Um, we were in a great position, but it’s like giving myself permission to even take that time.

That was the only hurdle. I had a supportive partner. It was basically like, take this time.

Yeah.

We didn’t have financial pressures. We don’t have kids. It was nothing standing in the way of me really doing the work and, and allowing myself that space. The only thing that was stopping me was me. And so it was a real journey.

Um, and then it was like, oh shit. Well, what do I do with myself? I don’t know if I can go back to corporate world. I, I think I’m broken. I I was never designed for it in the first place. I stumbled into this like, you know, current of it accidentally, and I can’t go back. What, what the hell do I do? So that’s when I, um, I was like, well, if I can’t go back to that world, I guess I have to go back to kind of the world that I started with.

Meditation had always been a through line. So that’s when I went back and, and did my two year program. Um, but yeah, it was a, it was a journey. It was,

Christina: we wouldn’t know each other if you didn’t have that corporate job. It’s true. Yeah. Thank you.

Corporate job.

Becky: Thank you. Corporate job. How, how did you two meet? Um, it was actually beautiful ‘cause it was like this window of time working corp, and I should say this, that I was so fortunate in that corporate space. I don’t know why they trusted me, but like for a long time of my career, I had my own team.

And I could kind of run that team in the way that I wanted. Like we would meditate in, in my little tiny team that no one paid attention to.

So when I met Christina, so I went from running our credentialing team, which is like the most boring part of healthcare. It’s the people who make sure that the doctors are on the books and in contract with the health plans. It’s like the worst bureaucracy in healthcare in America.

But for some reason I loved it. It’s like, what could I do here? It’s like, I think it’s the constraints, right? Sometimes that’s helpful. Yeah. I think I do really well with constraints. Yeah. And there was. So many constraints. I was like, game on. Game on. One time, this is a, a I’ll come back, but there was one time where we were opening up in Washington dc we were opening up a new location there.

We were having such a hard time getting our, our doctors license because the licensing board was just like so slow and so backlogged. So I made friends with someone at the licensing board and I would like, maybe I flirted it a little bit, you know, it was very innocent. But, you know, I think about like, these, their job sucks too, so let’s like make friends Sure.

And got our provider’s license faster. So, um, so I liked those constraints of like mm-hmm. How can I play with this? Yeah. But when I met Christina, this is how random my career was. So I came from that world, right? That, that was like a big part of my career. And then. Our head of real estate was going on maternity leave and I was like her maternity leave plan.

‘cause I was like running special projects at that time. It was weird, but it was amazing. So, um, I was in charge, I was a project manager of opening our new corporate space, so I was working with the interior designer and Christina, uh, had worked with that interior designer and so she came in to do an art piece.

Christina: Yeah. Um,

Becky: so that’s how we met.

Christina: Yeah. Wow. I did an art installation in her corporate headquarters office, which was like one of those cool places where you could like, get delicious food and swing on a swing. Yeah. You know, and, um, yeah. And like you, even, I remember you were the one who came in on the weekend so I could come and install while you guys weren’t working.

Yeah. And then Becky did the brave thing of being like, do you wanna go out to dinner? Yeah. And I was like, yeah, are we making a new friend? Are you like trying to pick me up? I actually don’t really know, but yes, I like spending time with you. I wasn’t married, but I was, I think I made it clear I was in relationships.

Yeah. Something, this is totally platonic, but like how do you not had corporate life? Yeah. This is like one of the most fruitful friendships of my lifetime. Yeah. Who, who knew?

Becky: That’s why I had no regret. You know? That’s why like the, even like thinking about um, our culture of busyness and all these things, it’s so easy for me to get angry at it. Yeah. And I do get angry for sure. Um, that’s why it’s so important to be with the anger. ‘cause then the anger can move through and it doesn’t get stuck because if, if it doesn’t move through me, then I miss everything that I’m grateful for, for that experience. You know, it’s so easy to forget that I wouldn’t know you.

Mm-hmm. I

wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have moved to New York. I wouldn’t have met Tara. Yeah. I wouldn’t, you know, it’s like

Ashley: this is also the, the way of our culture. So you also develop empathy for the way that so many people live their lives. Yeah. And it served you for the time that it needed to serve you For sure.

And who you were at that moment.

Becky: That is so true. I’ve been so, I’ve been doing the awful, awful project for me of beefing up my LinkedIn profile. I’m doing the, it’s hard out there doing the, the marketing stuff, you know? Yeah. Which, um, but one thing I was made, Tara, give me a brainstorming session ‘cause she’s brilliant and has amazing ideas.

But one thing we were, she was pointing out and I was really thinking about is. Like, what is my differentiator? Or whatever. And I think it is kind of part of that, like I do know what it’s like to be so busy and, um, to be in that culture and to know that not, not everyone can go quit their job. Like, that’s not realistic.

So how can I meet those people exactly where they, they are? Um, that’s huge. Yeah. That’s huge. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, I’m so grateful, but I also get angry. It’s like how to hold both, you know? I’m so angry at, you know, watching this beautiful, like, it felt like such a, when it was a startup and our founder, it was like this beautiful, like creative and messy, but it was like trying to change the world.

Like the founder of the company I was at, like really want, you can feel it when you’re around him. Like he wants to change the world. And then to watch it go this corporate route and eventually get bought by Amazon.

Ashley: Hmm. Totally.

Becky: But it’s, it’s all of it.

And I got Christina. Yeah. And a lot of people in the United States get good primary care.

Yeah. There’s

Ashley: Yeah. Because of

Becky: them. Yeah.

Ashley: It’s great. And maybe to know the way of, the way of busyness allows you to then carve out the path. Like you have to know the rules before you break the rules. That’s true. So really becoming familiar with the world of these rules and living them fully now has given you this path to create a podcast where you’re helping shed light on Yeah.

Alternative paths.

Becky: That’s so true. And and in, in my offering. And my teachings, my courses. It’s everything I’ve lived, I had to live it for sure. Mm. Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Like, um, yeah, we need, we need beacons of light who just show us where we’re going.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and you, yeah. We need people who have walked a path. It’s not gonna be the same, like, you’re not walking the same path as me, but, you know, similar enough direction mm-hmm. That you can show other people, like, here’s the resources you might need, here’s what you might encounter. Yeah.

Christina: I always found corporate, uh, corporate jobs to be incredibly difficult.

I never understood how to be myself inside of them. Mm-hmm. Really? ‘cause I don’t think I’m supposed to be in a corp. I don’t think many people are supposed to be.

Ashley: You’re supposed to be your professional self.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: And reserve your. Private self. I can’t separate the two. I know we’re not meant to. No,

Christina: no. And um, yeah, I wasn’t snuffed out a lot before that, so it was really difficult for me to, to do that.

I remember in corporate jobs, I would just make lists of dreams, just like, what do I want to be doing instead of this? That’s how I would like channel my energy into it. Like if I was like in the fitting room that like, uh, and that’s, I guess that’s, is that corporate, if you’re like Yeah. Kish. Um, are you talking about anthropology?

Yeah. When I was in anthropology before I got like the dream job, I was, I was literally like in the fitting room being like, what’s your name? How many do you have? And I was just like, God, what else would I rather be doing right now? I would rather be making my own art in my apartment on a tiny corner.

This is how much money it would cost me to not do this. And I would just like spend all that excess energy. ‘cause I have a lot of energy. I would put it there. Mm-hmm. And then eventually that happened, like those dreams happened, but it’s, um. It’s so fascinating to me. Everybody’s different. Everybody’s path is different.

Mm-hmm. But, um, I’m always astounded when people can mask enough or like actually feel joy in corporate life. It’s just amazing. Good job guys.

Yeah. This is actually like, to bring it back to Golden Rod. Golden Rod has been so alive for me because I was, um, in one of my, or in the last little retreat that I had for myself, I was sitting on the porch. Thinking, like connecting all of these threads. ‘cause that’s what happens when I go and get quieter.

All these threads are like, and they just weave into this beautiful little tapestry. And then I have that to bring forward. And I, I was thinking, I was like, God, you know, I think like why, why do I feel this connected to things like why, why, why? And then I just burst into big happy tears and was like, you know, I think Golden Rod actually understands this more than most people that I meet in life.

And I was like, oh, how am I the same? And how am I different to Golden Rod? Which was a really cool, like, because I had given myself this time, this was like day three of solitude. Mm-hmm. And I had this moment of incredible clarity where I could sit and ponder why I am the same and different from Golden Rod, which to me is really valuable time.

Mm-hmm. That’s a big deal to be able to admit that out loud. Mm-hmm. Like Christina five years ago probably wouldn’t have admitted that.

Mm-hmm.

But it is, and in that moment I thought, oh, golden Rod, golden Rodd understands this feeling more than most people. And I am different than Golden Rodd because I have a voice and I can write and I have language.

And that was a really nice answer to this, like, rumbling that I had felt that like there’s something coming around the bend for me and I think it’s writing. And that was like a really clarifying moment that I would not have had where I, in the fitting room, offering people things with my corporate masked Christina self.

Mm-hmm.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Yeah. But it’s nice, it’s nice again, like for people to have all these different examples of, of the discernment in others in their community to realize maybe that’s not where they’re supposed to be. Mm-hmm. Take a break. Maybe go back to it. Maybe not. Yeah. Do you have clarity on like what’s ahead?

Ashley: Um,

I’m still kind of living mm-hmm. In, in figuring that piece out. I think that there’s been moments of clarity. I probably won’t step back into a full-time career job. Um, I am at, at the moment giving more time to my artistic practice, which in, in a funny little twist at the moment is, um, feeling very job-like, because we’re at a moment of funding our studio.

so we’re, we’re doing some things that we, we. a year or two years ago said that we wouldn’t be doing, um, but that’s because we, we need to fund things in, in a real way. Yeah. Especially now that I don’t have a career job paying for part of the studio. Um, so that, that’s taking up a lot of my time right now.

And then I am taking on some freelance that feels aligned with, with myself and mission. Um, I know that some of the clarity that has come through is that I am very mission focused, so if I, if I’m not aligned with a mission, it feels very inauthentic.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: Um, and that has, that was true for a few different jobs that I held, um, and I held on longer than I should have.

And in one of the jobs. The, the recognition piece was, if I feel this again, I will, I will make the decision faster. Good for you. And that was this last job where I left. I felt the feeling again, and I was like, I can’t linger in this as I did. Mm. As as I did before. Um, but in, in the quieter life that I’m living, I think that there are things that have come through that I’ve had more time to percolate on that feel like a direction.

Um, and that, that will probably be an offshoot of something that is pottery related. Yeah. But that is my own entity. And I think, um, I think. One piece that I have recognized in myself is that I have a fear of being seen.

Christina: Whoa.

Ashley: And I really, really resonated with you, Becky, when you said the same thing on this podcast.

And I sat with that for a little while and I tried it on. Mm-hmm. Because I think that I’ve, I’ve noticed that about myself, but I’ve never actually owned that for myself.

And when I go back and I look through my life, the moments where I was maybe coming up to be seen a little bit more I quickly became smaller hid.

Um. And I think part of that has to do with the trusting of self. I think because I, I didn’t have that knowing and deep trust of myself to be seen as somebody that I wasn’t sure that I was Yeah. Was the moment that I would be like, oh my gosh, I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s me or not. Um, and I feel more grounded in myself now that I think I could stand behind something, um, and be seen in it as long as it was really, really feeling true.

And I have, I have some things that are coming up that feel very true, and it would, it would potentially put me in a schedule that looks like what my life did look like. Mm. But I think, um, building it, knowing that I don’t want that would be like, how can I actively create a company or a startup? And not have it be startup culture, startup mentality.

And, and I, I fall into giving my, all to the things that I do when I have a tough time saying, saying, okay, that’s like all you can give. Like I really do pour my whole self into my work. So that would be something that I’d have to navigate. Yeah. Try to figure that piece out.

Christina: Hmm. That’s great. That’s so exciting.

Yep. And now you’ve been practicing being with that feeling and taking action with that feeling. Like when you said with that first job that you had that feeling of unease for a while, then you realized, okay, if I feel this again, I will recognize it. You will probably recognize it again if you get into something that’s yours and it’s that way.

Um. Yeah,

Becky: This is, I think, the myth of, you know, when people are growing you don’t get rid of your busy mind. Mm-hmm. You don’t get rid of insecurities, you learn how to be with them. Mm-hmm. You learn how to be in relationship with them and not let them stop you ‘cause you’re, because you’re figuring out this is what is the, you, you know, and these other voices are, it’s, it’s part of you, but it’s not the, it doesn’t have to be the deciding force.

Um, and this is the thing is like, there’s so many ways to, I think we’re so limited in our, in our thinking about like, what is a company or what a company can be. And I always look at, um, do you know Chani Nicholas? She’s an astrologer. Mm-hmm. Of course I do. Oh, of course you do. Of course you you’re in our orbit.

She, but the way she runs her company Yeah. Is so rad. And she’s clearly like living her values in the ways she runs that company. And I don’t know, you never know what it’s like from the inside. Right.

But from the outside, it, it just reminds me that when we step back into these places of like, like you were on a retreat, I’ve been on a retreat. When you step back in, I think you do have to like figure out how to integrate everything you learned. And um, and that’s a process. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: And I think that it, it is telling, we can bring some of those practices into, into, uh.

Busy and corporate life. Yeah. And those will make, those practices, will, will remind us of our true selves and mm-hmm. And what’s truly important to us. Yeah. So it’s not, it’s not the formula isn’t everyone go quit your job. No. You know, everyone leave corporate life because that’s, that’s not the way that, you know, the way that we can do things.

But we can pause, we can take a retreat. I mean, high higher ed builds sabbatical. Yeah. And in that model would be so lovely to see throughout corporate life. Um, having the sabbatical to just check back in and realign yourself with what’s important to you or what, you know, actually take the time to, to give your attention and energy to the project that has been on the back burner.

Yeah.

Becky: See, I was lucky because. The corporate job I was in did have sabbaticals every five years. Amazing. That’s amazing. You got four weeks to just explore. So in the time I was there, I’d had two. And it is so important, and I agree with you. It’s like you can’t not everyone can, you know, do a 180 in their life.

But, um, when I was on retreat at Essel n uh, one of the people in my group who became a dear friend, she talked about how like, when you come back, you can’t do a 180 in your life. It’s too hard. It’s unrealistic. ‘cause you know, you go on retreat and then you come back and it’s like, how do I become who I was there?

You’re just different. But she gave me this image of like, if you can just change your life two degrees Mm. And then over time, you’re in a completely different place. Yes. And , yeah. It’s, it’s not about, it’s about like. Like, take your weekend. Mm-hmm. Yes. You know, and actually play with that weekend and treat it as a retreat and then bring it back into your day to day.

Mm-hmm.

Christina: Absolutely. That’s like what, that’s like what I believe Rilke meant when he said live the questions. Mm-hmm. And on being talks about this all the time, but even like when you actually were saying how, um, I am someone in your life who consciously prioritizes time for things that matter. I believe that I am living what I have always aspired to because I consciously do that because it’s like, it’s like a way of microdosing and living into the questions of like right now feeling like, I don’t know, um, I don’t know, kind of like where I’m headed in and I’m coming from a place of very.

Living in the dream that I’ve had for myself and there’s still something new coming. There are all of these conscious seeds, like these conversations keep everything very, um, alive and aligned and deeper thinking. Mm-hmm. So that then, you know, if I’m having more conversations with, with you guys or with Becky every other week, um, the things that are really true are the things that are on the surface all the time.

Mm-hmm. Routinely, like over and over again. And I think that’s another way of, um, staying really aligned with the things that matter. Mm-hmm. Um,

Becky: it’s like systematizing it. This is what keeps Yeah. And again,

Christina: maybe this is, that’s your brain, but Yes. This is

Becky: another thing that I’m thinking of right now. Yeah.

‘cause I need systems. Mm-hmm. And, and when you’re caught in the current, even if you don’t have an ADHD brain like mine, but like when you’re caught in the current of corporate America. You need nudges, you need to like systematize.

Mm-hmm.

Getting those little moments, otherwise it’ll never happen. Mm-hmm.

I mean, I know you said earlier about like, you know, you have your journaling time mm-hmm. And then your journaling time’s over, which I get that that’s not as flowy and expansive as having three days. Um, but it’s like little doses that just keep you anchored.

Yes. Yeah. And this is important and you’re making sure it happens. Yeah. And then, yeah, like, I mean, I just, I’ve seen so many people go on retreat and they wanna live their life on retreat. Mm-hmm. And it’s like, that’s not where your life is. That’s not like, that’s like where you remind yourself, yes, this is what’s important.

And it retreats I do think are important because you step away and then you come back with new perspective.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: Um, but what’s more important is the practices of of, okay, I got these messages, I got these tools.

Tools are only as good as you use ‘em. Mm-hmm. And if you can’t use them in your busy life, they’re not valuable.

Right. They’re not the tools for you. Right.

I’m speaking to myself here, by the way. Mm-hmm. If anyone’s unclear and podcast land, because I was reflecting on like, you have three kids, a dog, a thriving business, and you find all this, you no, you don’t find mm-hmm. You make sure that you have all this space and time. I know, I, you could argue I have lots of space.

I have no kids. I’m building a business. Um, but it’s not like busy yet. Mm-hmm. And I, I forget, I forget to give myself the space. So it’s not about how much time you have. Yeah. It really isn’t. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s about prioritizing it and if you have five minutes, but you devote your presence to that five minutes, that’s gonna be more powerful than taking an entire retreat where you’re still in the busy mind.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Christina: And it’s a matter of actively prioritizing and protecting that time. So every time, I mean, every time I’ve gone away, something has come up that’s like, oh shoot, I should really be there for that. Mm-hmm. Sorry, I can’t, I started to change the way that I think about it and I, and I changed the way, like when that time Andrew and I have a shared calendar, so when that time is in there, that is, that is like locked in, that does not get taken.

He doesn’t even reach out to me when I’m gone. Like, people could be, you know, unless someone’s like actively dying, I don’t get reached. Um, and it’s, it’s just protecting that time has been something that I mostly, most of all me, have had to really practice and not put at the bottom of the priority list.

Yeah. And honestly like it’s made the most, it’s, I don’t know, it’s just made the most difference in my life and it’s so easy to think this doesn’t matter ‘cause I’m actually feeling really good. Like at first it started with more of a desperation feeling.

Mm-hmm

I need this, I have to get it. Or I would recognize the frenetic energy in my body too late, which meant that I had actually gone too far without supporting myself in that, like, solitude.

Um, but now it’s at the point where I’m actually much more real, well resourced, more often. And so then taking that time feels like a little frivolous, but I still do it and it’s so rewarding, um, because the idea wouldn’t be to always get to that point and be at such an empty cup that you need to spend it all filling the cup back up again to arrive at that gift of time with a full cup that’s like,

hmm.

So great.

Becky: I still have to battle this mentality in myself and I, I’m equating it to my meditation practice. Yeah. For so long in my journey, I would reach for those practices as a fix, as like, there’s something going on in my life, I need to reach for this. Um, and it took so long for me to get out of that mentality of like, there’s nothing broken.

Mm-hmm. This isn’t a fix of anything. This is something that supports me and nourishes me. It’s like food, it’s like a non-negotiable because if I don’t get this, I don’t have the resources that I need. Um, but I could see how like, it does feel different. I don’t know if this is pointing to what you were feeling of like it feeling frivolous when you’re feeling resource, but Yeah.

Like I would just, so many times in my path I would give up the meditation practice. Yeah. Because it’s like, because I’m doing fine. Well, I don’t need it anymore. I’m fine.

Christina: Yep.

Becky: And I think it’s a reflection of our culture. You know, we we’re in such a, like a pathologizing culture mm-hmm.

Where , you know, there’s something wrong with you, so you do this thing so that you’re better and then you don’t need the thing anymore. But it’s like, no, we’re not broken. Mm-hmm. We’re living in kind of a sick society right now. Yeah. So maybe we, you know, we need these resources to just survive in this climate.

That’s how I feel anyway. Mm-hmm. I feel like there’s nothing wrong with me, but I need to be resourced to open my eyes in the morning, because it feels hard sometimes to be human and to be alive and to just get up. Mm-hmm.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: You have to, how are you gonna show up for others in your life if you’re not resourced? Mm-hmm. Hmm. Like that.

Christina: Like that mm-hmm. That breath.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Exactly.

Ashley: Mm-hmm. That was one of the the messages that came through. I did internal family systems work. I know you guys have talked about that. Um, the shocking messages that I got, because I thought I was going into internal family systems to find out the root of all of the things that were wrong with me.

You know, I was gonna see the little abandoned child or the, you know, like really angry part. Um, and I was instead confronted with the first message that I received was, you are safe. And that was shocking, that that would be the first message that I would get in doing internal work because I was expecting something completely opposite.

And then later on, another message that came through was, you are good. And those were the, those two messages were profound Yeah. For me to deliver to myself. Mm-hmm. Because that was not what I was thinking was going on, on the inside. And I think that that is a product of our society, I think, I think we do have, um, the mentality of what will fix me?

What will fix me? What will fix me? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and that is, that’s actually when I found that I go to my journal the most is when I’m feeling the most in distress. Mm-hmm. Is I’m using it as a, as a place to work through things or even running, sometimes running when I’m feeling particularly anxious.

Mm-hmm. Um, that’s another way that I’m resetting myself, but it’s not, I find that when I am feeling great mm-hmm. I am not doing those things that fill me up

so much as, as often. Yeah. Um, it’s like the, it’s the wellness culture versus the sick culture. What do we call the opposite of wellness culture?

Like, I don’t know, you know, like, like Eastern is more wellness focused and we’re more western.

Christina: I don’t know,

Ashley: like where we treat the illness, we don’t prevent the illness. Oh yes. You know what, I don’t know what that’s

Christina: called, but I know what you’re referring to.

Becky: I just call it the American healthcare.

Becky: No. Well, what was striking me when you were speaking earlier about this like lineage of, you know, am I good or am I, um, I was just, it was hitting me. Um, like going back to like original sin and how that is portrayed and like,

Christina: yeah,

Becky: I don’t know. I’m looking at it from the outside, but I’m curious because we’ve had conversations, um, around this. I had no. Maybe indoctrination is not, not a kind word, but, you know, I know like programming mm-hmm. From religion. Are you tracing any of that back to like Yeah,

Ashley: yeah. For sure. I mean, that was, that’s the foundation of my life. Yeah.

Is, um, um, a flavor of Christianity that is very particular, even among my, my friends who have been brought up in a similar way. Um, I think that my version of Christianity was just more intense.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: Um, my parents both came to Christianity when I was five, so it was like new. Um, really wanting to embrace the culture.

Mm-hmm. It was in the south in the eighties, so that was, I think that that was a moment in, um, in the way that Christianity was permeating our culture and just becoming its own kind of like subculture.

Christina: Yeah.

Ashley: Um, and I, I have like a lot of experiences that were shared, among people my age who were growing up at the same time.

Um, and I think that the, the biggest one was the, um, you’re saved, like, you’re so bad, but luckily Jesus can save you from your horrible nature. And that is the one that stuck,

Becky: yeah.

Ashley: All the way through was, and that I think that that is the lack of trust in self. Yeah. It’s like you should not trust yourself.

You should only trust God. Um, and I think that’s the work to undo. But I also see so many pieces that are, um, in alignment with, with actually how I am living now. So my parents both are very devout Christians, and I have had this toss up between feelings of anger, um, feelings of gratefulness for how I grew up, um, and, and wanting to separate from it, but then also acknowledging in so many conversations that I have with my parents.

Um. They’re, they’re such spiritual people, so yeah. It’s like we’re speaking the same language. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But, uh, with a different lens. Sure. You know, one that I am now coming around to be able to like, recognize within them. I don’t know that they would be able to extend the same lens to me, but I can see the crossover.

Yeah. I can see how wonderful, , the, the institute, there’s so many things within the institution that are great. Like it’s meditative. Yeah. It’s, um, positive thinking. Mm-hmm. You know, it’s collective people coming together collectively, um, to have conversations that extend beyond superficial mm-hmm. Yeah.

Things. Yeah. Um, so it gets really intense and really deep and really caring and really connected. And that was the. The place that I grew up. Mm-hmm. So then when I didn’t have it anymore, which was for probably a good like 12 year span where I was, where I was separating from all of that. Mm-hmm. That was when I felt like the ground floor came out from under me because I had no, every way in which I had made decisions and lived my life and, and had like, anchored myself was to prayer and to what God was gonna show me and the signs and getting the message from inside, which is, is the way actually that I live.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ashley: But I just had to learn that I, I had to relearn that that is what I need and I didn’t need to completely turn, turn it off. It’s just a different version.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: Now.

Becky: Yeah. It’s like a coming home to. What you, what’s like part of your DNA? Yes. But from a, a new perspective. Yeah.

Ashley: And when I, when I hear my parents talking in the way that they talk, which I, I have, um, sometimes lovingly referred to as Christian Ease when I hear them talk that way.

Like they’re, they’re so, uh. Authentic in what they’re saying. They’re so, they’re so filled up by it. Yeah. And I used to get furious when I would hear it coming out, and now I find it endearing and I, I find it like, oh yeah, that’s why I talk like that. That’s why I am leaning into this spiritual side of me, because that is what’s familiar and that’s what I was surrounded with my whole life was, was two people that had decided to like, live by the signs and not by, you know, like some, um, plan, you know, they were a plan in the sense that it was like God’s plan, but they had to discover God’s plan, which was outside of them.

So I feel, I feel more gratitude towards them these days and alignment in how I live my life. It’s just a different way.

Becky: Yeah. I, I am realizing more and more the things that make us angry or the things that we judge Yeah. Are like indicators. Yes. Suck. Good inside it needs to shift. Mm-hmm. Or it’s like a calling.

They’re like, really? That’s why the moving, letting those emotions be here and move through us and give us messages is so important. Because if, for myself, if I get stuck in like, I’m feeling this anger and I judge the anger and it stays out there about the other, the other person, then I never bring it in and learn the message that I’m meant to get from that.

It’s hard though. It’s hard. It’s so much easier and cathartic to be like, it’s those people, it’s their fault.

Ashley: Totally. The um, I recently came across this. Um, practice or ritual? A Hawaiian ritual. So you’re, you’re actively clear clearing and cleansing the energy that you’re bringing. Mm-hmm. And, and I that has, that has been sitting with me.

But do you wanna share what it is though? Um, okay. So Ho ao, has four, four. steps in this ritual. It’s acknowledging the situation and, and giving in. I’m sorry for the situation. Uh, please forgive me asking for forgiveness, for forgiveness for your role.

A thank you expressing gratitude for the experience in the lesson. And then I love you sending love to yourself in the situation. And the way that I came across it was, actually for the, the example was when you are dealing with someone who you feel like doesn’t like you and you are, you are saying, I’m sorry for the things that I’m bringing up inside of you mm-hmm.

That like my presence or my way of being stirs something in you. Mm-hmm. Um, and I forgive you for having that feeling and I’m like, I’m sending you love. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that, that it’s so great. It’s so, so great. Yeah. And it reminds me of another thing too, which, um, we, Christina and I had talked about this, where, um, we, we had a conversation about how I hold within me, um, I have this self built in self-defense mechanism, um, where I walk into any situation and I just put out this assumption into the room that nobody likes me.

Becky: Were you always aware of this? Or did this become conscious later? Would you really walk into a room and think in your head, wow, no one likes me.

Ashley: Yeah. No, no, no. I still, I still like really. Really struggle with this. And it’s the way that it was, it was pointed out to me by several people at different times, they would tell you yes.

Like you, you keep thinking that nobody likes you, but people like you. And Christina and I talked about this because she said that her mom has acknowledged that she walks into a room. Yeah. And she assumes that everyone likes her.

Becky: That’s a practice.

Ashley: That is a practice. That is a way, I know a way of being because it, whatever the storyline is in your head is the thing that you are bringing.

Christina: Yeah.

Ashley: In, in your lens of interpreting everyone’s action. So if I am thinking you don’t like me and , you just walk by me. Mm-hmm. That is feeding into the narrative that I have. And also I’m putting out terrible energy into world closed off from everyone. Like dark. I would be guarded.

Becky: Yeah. Yeah. You might be guard.

Like if you think I don’t like you, you’re gonna put up walls and I’m gonna sense the walls. Mm-hmm. And it is like this, the world only exists through our own lenses. Yes. Like, yeah. So if you think the whole room likes you or the whole room hates you. Yes, that’s true. Yeah. It’s exact same room.

Ashley: And I think that’s where this whole pono, pono, um, almost is like this little crack in it because I can be like, if I’m still in that mentality, which I realize is a falsification, I can extend the.

I’m sorry if I trigger something in you Yeah. Be like, I forgive you. I’m actually gonna send you love. And it like, helps me to just open myself up and be more open, um, even if I’m still projecting things that aren’t correct.

Becky: But that’s a bridge. Yeah. That’s like such a cool bridge. I, so when I was younger I was very insecure. So insecure. And like to the point when I was , in high school, I wouldn’t wanna look in the bathroom. You know, you go to the bathroom and then you wash your hands and the girls are like prepping their hair or whatever.

And I would purposely , not wanna look in the mirror because I didn’t want people to think like I had such low opinion of myself that I didn’t want people to think that I like,

Christina: cared enough to look Yeah. Or

Becky: like tried to make myself Yeah. You know, total protection.

Wow.

But so when I, um, I started bartending when I was 21 and all these like.

Like the pretty girls or whatever. Mm-hmm. You know, would come in and I would feel like, oh, they must hate me. They must think like, I’m so awful. Right. Like, so I would play this game as a bridge. Some was like, okay, Becky, what if they hate you?

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: What are they gonna do? Are they gonna come in and are they gonna insult me?

Okay. That will be embarrassing. And then I would extend it. I would be like, okay, well what if they hated me so much? They punched me in the face. Okay. It would hurt, but it would heal. It’d be fine.

What if they hated me so much that they killed me? But it was helpful for me to say, even if this ridiculous thing that I’m thinking, ‘cause it’s a ridiculous thing to think that these girls aren’t thinking anything about me.

Me. Mm-hmm. They, they don’t care about me. But it’s uh, taking this irrational thought and extending it out to, its like worst conclusion or like most extreme situation. And say like, yeah, okay. I’d be okay. Like,

Ashley: so you’re asking yourself if you could be with it, like be with it. Yeah.

Becky: Before I had any conscious, like this was, that’s so cool. Wild, right? Yeah. This is crazy. I am just, thank you for that connection because I didn’t quite make that connection. You were Yeah. I guess I meant for this practice. ‘cause it, and it helped me. ‘cause then after a while I didn’t care. Yeah. I didn’t care.

‘cause it’s like, what are you gonna do? Kill me. Right. And it just opened me up a little bit. But you have to start where you are. Mm-hmm. You can’t start with like, it would feel so inauthentic to go from like, I’m walking into the room assuming everyone’s hating me to, I’m gonna assume everyone loves me.

Like your body is, you’re nervous. It’s hard system is gonna be like no fucking Yeah. You have to do the 2% Believe that. Yeah. You have to do the 2%. Yeah. You have to do like something. That starts where you are. Because otherwise it’s like I can listen to your mom’s practice and say , that’s cool.

That’s not me. You know? Or that’s, it feels too far away. And then I think what it does to me is it makes me judge who I am. That I’m can’t do that. That meaning the,

Christina: except that everyone, or expect that everyone likes you.

Becky: Yeah. I’ll start judging myself that, that, because that seems like that’s a better way to live.

Mm-hmm. And that’s just not a path

Christina: No.

Becky: Of like, you have to start there. We are all unique and different and beautiful and accepting that is like the most powerful thing I think anyone can do. And just realize we’re all just so different.

Ashley: Mm-hmm. Makes things far less exhausting when you’re trying to be something you’re not.

Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: It’s so freeing to do the crazy thing.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Plant yourself in your, to plant yourself.

Ashley: Mm-hmm. How did it feel afterwards? We went cold plunging right after. Oh yeah. So we walked down the street covered in dirt. Yes. Um, it felt, I think the best word was alive. Mm. It felt alive because we have this life, we have these bodies.

We can do the things now and what is stopping us? Yeah. Do it. Do it now.

Becky: Whenever I have those moments it’s like a fuck it moment, right. Where you’re like, I’m just gonna do the thing and I’m not gonna care. And every time I do it, it shocks me how, like, what was stopping me?

Christina: But yeah, that’s like where you live, living in the fuck it moments should be everybody’s goal.

I mean, you have to like, you have to be reasonable.

Becky: You have to be reasonable, I guess

Christina: sometimes. Mm-hmm. At least a little bit. Especially when you have things like free kids and like you need health insurance and stuff, but, but you can weave the fuck it moments into your days. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Or

Becky: like find a ‘cause the, the, the fuck it moments are we’re earning our, and our expletive, our expletive.

When you get that message of I wanna bar bury myself in the, the ground it’s coming from, I think it’s coming from something beyond us, something bigger than us from source, from God if you mm-hmm. Like that language. Um, I, God it’s coming from something, it feels like an honoring. I don’t think those messages are ever going to tell you to do something that’s really bad for your.

For yourself.

Christina: Yeah. And I believe they’re coming to you because they’re for you. Mm-hmm.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Right. Like none of my crazy ideas have felt wrong when I’ve done them.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s crazy. I mean, yours, your version of like an awakened aliveness. Ashley was planting yourself or burying whatever you, I say planting, you say burying, so there’s a different consciousness there, but, but you did that and

Becky: she’s a composter.

Christina: Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Probably. You guys are both composters. I am not. You started categorized. I know, but like that’s your version of something very alive. And my version of something very alive was sitting and watching the light move from the ceiling to the floor. Mm-hmm. Two completely different things.

Probably felt equally as brave,

right? Mm-hmm.

And just to do them is so illuminating.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And important to just do them. Where do they go? Who cares if they go nowhere? Right. You did them, right? Mm-hmm. So good. They’re so good. Mm-hmm.

Fuck it moment.

Becky: The alive moments. Yeah.

Christina: We could go get in the ocean now and get alive. Yeah.

Ashley: Well, thank you guys. My gosh. Thank you.

Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.

Yep. Fuck it. I’m gonna write an email tonight. And you know, there are people who won’t have the bandwidth for this, but this is something I always have the bandwidth for and I am an Aries and I will live my true nature in that and just be the fire starter here, while other people don’t ‘cause that I’m doing it, I’m gonna do it.

Look for the email later. Okay, bye.

We invite our friend Ashley O’Brion (the creative genius behind our branding) to join us for a live conversation in Christina’s small cathedral of a studio. We spoke for over two hours and meandered through a vast expanse of things: how we each discern cultural conditioning from authentic expression, how routine togetherness can cause “scenius,” a term coined by musician Brian Eno that describes collective creative imagination, how Ashley’s last couple of years have helped her learn to trust herself and to listen to that small voice, even if it asks her to bury herself in her garden after leaving the workplace to take a pause.

We discuss the idea that being busy is often a distraction from some nagging truth, and how solitude may be a worthwhile practice.

This conversation will continue with a part two, releasing on November 28th.

If you would like to learn more about Ashley’s creative genius, check out her website:

ashleyobrion.com

And as always, to learn more about Christina’s art or how you can work with Becky to sculpt your own intentional life, check out our websites below:

christinawatka.com

beckydecicco.com

Finally a bit of a warning - if your small voice tells you to bury yourself in the garden, please do so horizontally, surrounded by people who love you, and with great care.

Thank you for listening, and if you like what you heard you can rate us on Apple, Spotify, or share your favorite episode with a friend!

Episode Transcript

Christina: Wow, thank you for sharing these messages and like the whole time it really just made me feel so pumped to just sit at my studio table with both of you and have a really beautiful long chat. Um, and you were one of the people that as we made this, I was like, Ashley O’Brien is going to find such a home in this.

Also, like Ashley O’Brien should talk to Becky. I know that should happen. So I just kept dangling it in front of you and then when the time was right, you found her. Isn’t it beautiful? Isn’t it just so beautiful. Um, yeah. Yeah. It’s wonderful. I love you both so much. This is a really special note to receive and, um, gorgeous, gorgeous.

You both have also been pivotal in my life, so it’s nice that there’s that give and take. Um, I’m just getting home and now I’m gonna take my daughters to the pool for an hour. Okay? I love you. Bye

Becky: Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time. The next two episodes we’ll release are really special. We invited our friend Ashley O’Brien, who is the creative genius behind our branding, to join us for a live conversation in Christina’s small cathedral of a studio. We spoke over two hours and meandered through a vast expanse of topics.

How we each discern cultural conditioning from authentic expression. How routine togetherness can cause “scenius”. And how Ashley’s last couple of years have helped her learn to trust herself and to listen to that small voice, even if it asks her to bury herself in the garden. This very special conversation will continue with a part two that will be released on November 28th.

I hope you enjoy.

Christina: We could just start, I did like Dog Year, a poem that I read recently and I was like, maybe we could start with that. If so, if that’s helpful.

Becky: That sounds good.

Christina: Sometimes starting is the hardest part.

Becky: Actually, actually, can we start, do you mind if I, you can join me or not? Yes. But I just wanna like ground myself for one second. Yes, let’s do that. I just wanna like, feel my butt on the seat. Mm-hmm. Take in some deep breaths.

Just noticing the texture of the body,

just allow this to establish your place in space and time right now.

Take a few more deep breaths

Becky: I needed that.

Mm-hmm.

Christina: We should do that together every time. Why don’t we do that together?

Becky: Because we pro. ‘cause we both do it in,

Christina: we’re doing it on our own.

Becky: Wow. But I was like, I’m not gonna have time to do my grounding.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: Which is a new, which is kind of, um, it’s a new thing for me ‘cause like I wouldn’t have thought about my needs and expressed my needs when I’m around other people. So, yay me.

Christina: Good for you.

Becky: Thanks.

Ashley: But that is how I have interacted with you. Every interaction I’ve had, we would go through a grounding exercise first so that felt very familiar.

Becky: It did it. I mean, there I definitely needed it. Yeah. And there I was kind of the guide, so

Ashley: yeah, exactly.

Becky: It made sense that I, I would, you know, in that context, it’s like clearly I’m here to guide, but in like social context, it’s very different for me to say, I need this. Do you mind if I, you know, and no one gives a shit.

No one cares. But it’s like my own shit that would get in the way of like. What do I need right now? I needed to shake it off.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And it’s also like so beautiful to notice that, to know like, oh, I need to shake. Oh, I need to ground myself and then to express it. So

Christina: to do it.

Becky: Yeah. But I am interested in your poem.

Christina: Mm. I’ll read it.

Becky: Great.

Christina: Well, it’s Mary Oliver, I, I, this, this, um, this book has been dogeared so many times and I read it. Um, uh, one of the twins is really interested in poetry and she goes and pretends to write her own poems. ‘cause she can’t write words completely yet but she’ll go and write things and then read them to me later.

And they’re always like, she wrote one this weekend that was like, she said, the wind, the wind grows like the trees. That’s what her poem was. And I said, really? Do you wanna tell me more about it? And she said, yeah. Like the wind goes up, like the trees grow. And that was it. So great. Anyway, so we started, much to my delight, we end every night.

When I take the twins to bed, we end by, um, I offer them a poem if they want, or a story or a book. And we’ve chosen a poem and we’re like, this is Mary Oliver’s devotions, which is my personal Bible. And it’s probably like we’re like two thirds through. So Golden Rod has been speaking to me a lot lately and this, this, um, poem is called Golden Rod “On roadside in Fall Fields in Rumpy Bunches, saffron and Orange and Pale Gold in little towers Soft as mash sneeze bringers and seed bearers full of bees and yellow beads and perfect flower lits and orange butterflies. I don’t suppose much notice comes of it except for honey and how it heartens the heart with its blank blaze.

I don’t suppose anything loves it except perhaps. The rocky voids filled by its dumb dazzle. For myself, I was just passing by when the wind flared and the blossoms rustled and the glittering pandemonium leaned on me. I was just mining my own business when I found myself on their straw hillsides, citron and butter colored and was happy.

And why not are not the difficult labors of our lives full of dark hours. And what has consciousness come to anyway so far that is better than these light-filled bodies all day on their airy backbones? They toss in the wind, they bend as though it was natural and godly to bend. They rise in a stiff sweetness, in the pure peace of giving one’s gold away.

Isn’t it great? Don’t your parents call this? Don’t they call ‘em ragweed? Yeah,

Becky: ragweed.

Christina: Hmm. Most people think golden rod is just like, no big deal. Just a weed. A had weed.

Ashley: A weed, a weed that kicks up seasonal allergies.

Christina: Which it does. It does,

Ashley: does it, does it? I also find it so beautiful.

Christina: Yeah.

Ashley: But in, in my history, I do remember it being a, don’t, don’t go near the ragweed.

Becky: Yeah. So interesting how our histories shape, how we view the world.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: Yeah,

Christina: I know. I just thought, I mean, Mary Oliver is, is the queen of noticing in my opinion, and she just.

She’s just like walking by and she said it just, the pandemonium just leaned on her and then all of a sudden it’s like, wow, there’s this thing that I’ve never actually given my attention to. Right. In this way, giving one’s gold away. That was the other one that felt really, really wonderful on the heels of our last conversation, which was talking about, um, manifestation and generosity being held in the same hand.

Christina: To think of Golden Rod doing that and then thinking of you doing that, or me or Ashley.

It’s nice and it’s, it’s the season of Golden Rod now here in Maine.

Becky: Right now. It is.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: The only thing I knew about Golden Rod was from, um, braiding sweet Grass around like the golden rod and in a purple.

Yeah. Like going together and how the bees can see it. Mm-hmm. Because of how they. Come together.

Christina: Such a transformative book. Sometimes I’ll open that book to a page and just read what it has to say. Like an offering, like an Oracle deck.

Ashley: Yes.

Christina: Braiding. Sweetgrass is an oracle deck.

Ashley: I agree with that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think because, um, I think in one of your earlier conversations you also talked about the birds not caring about, you know, what the expectations were on them, but maybe I’m misplacing that conversation and it sub reading sweet sweetgrass conversation. But just that the world and nature goes on without being self-conscious and that oftentimes we’re so locked in on our self-consciousness.

Ashley: Um, or cultural expectations, or whatever.

You know, and we could just go forward and give our gold or, you know, do our life

without being burdened by the things that so many humans are often burdened by.

Becky: We’re crazy creatures.

Ashley: We are crazy creatures.

Becky: I’m still obsessed with, Sarah Imari Walker.

My obsession is not died out perfect. And so everything I like, think, and, and, um, processes through the lens of a Assembly Theory. And so I’m just like now thinking of us as, um, she would say, we are the, I used to say we’re the young species. She would actually say we’re the oldest because we have such a lineage of time.

And it’s just so fascinating to all these things that had to line up to create these brains, to create this society and yeah, we use it to be so insecure we can’t say, I need to dance or I need to, like, what is that?

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And nature shows us the way. Just give your gold away.

Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: Just be what you are.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: Right?

Becky: Yeah. Which is so hard. Mm-hmm. For some people. Yeah. It’s hard. It’s

Christina: so hard, guys.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: I don’t find it as hard, but that’s still, oh man. I know.

Becky: I mean, it’s like even to figure out like, who are you? You know? Like the golden rod knows what it is. There’s no question.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not thinking about it. I read somewhere recently or heard somewhere recently that this happens. Something happens when, when you’re around 40 years old, something also an, um, like awakenings or, or realizing that there’s so much more to every day than you’ve been living up until like 38 or 40 has, has certainly been my experience.

Um, I feel like it’s been your experience too. Yes,

Ashley: yes.

Christina: Um, I am interested if you’re comfortable talking about it, like, um, I, so okay, Ashley and I shared a studio.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Um, so there was, we shared a studio two years ago for two years, right? Mm-hmm. And that was a time of

Ashley: four years ago. For two years,

Christina: four years ago.

For two years, yes. Right. That’s true. So we started four years ago. Mm-hmm. Um, and we got. So we got to know each other like daily.

Kind of straight out the gate with that. And you were someone who like walked straight up to me and told me exactly who I was in no fewer words. And it was really, um, breathtaking and a real gift to receive because you held a mirror to me with language that no one had ever done before.

So thank you for that.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Becky: Do you remember the words

Ashley: Wholehearted?

Christina: Yeah. Wholehearted was a big one,

Ashley: right? It was Brene Brown. She had, um, several of her books talk about gifts of imperfection and, um. In her studies of vulnerability, she was able to classify people basically in people who live in this wholehearted way and capable of holding many things without judgment. Um, so, with acquaintances or with people that you’re close with, you know, you can just be an open place and that there, there’s a calming presence from them. Right. Which is all of the things that Christina emitted, um, when I first met her, and I was writing these things down because I was in this, this, uh, 40-year-old reflection point. And I can see how that is, um, how that is true for humans, because that does seem to be the point where we’ve settled into our lives. We know how we are as adults, which is the time that we’ve separated from our child selves. Um, so that makes sense. And that’s where I was at 35 meeting you.

Christina: Yeah.

Ashley: And, and Dec decide taking a very huge leap and risk in even just saying yes to a studio space. Yeah. Because I had a whole life that didn’t accommodate time for a studio space.

So that was, it was a tiptoe into what would be a, I think a transformation and an awakening over the next five years, which I’m still living in, but now have, have embodied it a little more fully.

Christina: You were at that point where on the, on the Brene Brown list, you were like, oh God, one of my core values is beauty.

That’s horrible. And I remember, like you were, you were at the point where that was a shameful thing to know about yourself. Um, and I’ve seen you embrace that about yourself since then, which has been really great. And I think from what I’m witnessing in you, that feels like a much better home in.

Ashley: Right, right.

In like in the golden rod, you know, just accepting what you are. Yeah. Um, and, and being okay with it. And being with it. And that is, um, that was a practice that Becky and I went through in the spring, um, which was one meditative practice that has become part of my hourly ritual is, “can you be with this?”

And that phrase is, is lingering always, um, can you be with this? Can you be with your hurt? Can you be with your fear? Can you be with your joy? Can you be with, um, your desire for beauty in all things? And at first it was there, there’s a track or something that is, that is laid into us and just like, can I ask for what I need before I’m starting a podcast?

Um, that it, it’s unspoken, you know? No, but I can’t be sad, but I can’t be selfish, but I can’t go into a studio because that’s gonna be taking $200 a month from my family also, I don’t have the time . And I think that the answer from you was, but do you have the desire? Why? Why not embrace this part of yourself and see what happens?

And so that was the beginning of a transformative journey. And then in the studio we, we began hashing out a lot of these ideas often and talking about big ideas. And, um, I think our daily presence with one another was opening and then we developed a, um, we, we got some language for that from your cousin, which was “Scenius”.

Christina: Yes. Say it again?

Ashley: “Scenius”.

Becky: “Scenius”

Ashley: “Scenius”.

Christina: Yeah. Like genius with an SC at the beginning.

Becky: Oh

yeah. And what does it mean in this context?

Ashley: It is group, sort of group genius. Yeah. But, but um, if you think about it in history. There’s so many schools of art or thinking or philosophy that develop over time and they happen in pockets. And so it’s because there’s individuals that are then coming together as a collective and bouncing ideas off of each other. And then it’s like the idea has the room to grow.

Christina: Mm

Ashley: mm And to expand because it’s sharing so many minds.

Christina: But it’s not like you’re going together to try to like meet a certain goal as a team.

Yeah. It’s more just like by being around each other routinely you become this sort of like “Scenius” mind.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Christina: We should find the person, we’ll put it in the show notes, whoever came up with that term. ‘cause it wasn’t my cousin Pat, he just shared it with me. Yeah. But you’re right. I have forgotten that.

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: It is occurring to me more and more how important community is. Mm-hmm. And I, I have tried to do so many things ‘cause I’m an introvert and like, you know, tried to do so many things as an individual and I am feeling the limit of that. And now you’re inspiring me to find, see

Ashley: I think you already have, I think in, in this.

Becky: Oh my God. Well that’s, yes. Yeah.

Ashley: In this podcast you guys are growing this conversation. That’s true. And you’re bringing other people into the conversation with you and they have the opportunity to respond to what you’re talking about.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: And join in the conversation. Yeah. So you are creating your own “Scenius”.

Becky: Thank you for saying that. Yeah. And it is true. Like I grow so much just by having the conversation, revisiting the conversation that I learned from you of like this, you know? And I think that’s what happens when you bring people together. Is there is this kind of like. You say things over and over again, you say it in a different way than I said it.

Mm-hmm. You’ll say it and it’s like, oh yeah. It’s like through the language and the communication and the processing and the filtering, you come to something totally new.

Christina: Mm-hmm. But that’s the great thing about just putting your attention towards something. ‘cause I don’t think we have really any expectation of what this becomes other than just the generative conversations that we have in the moment.

And that’s what I think I’ve learned in, in my time existing is like, don’t, don’t try to go to the end goal just to get to that goal. There’s so much that happens between the point of the beginning and the end where you have all these different avenues of places that you could potentially follow.

And so for you and I starting this thing, it was just kind of like. Wanna do this.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. And we wanna do a good job. So we, you know, we have microphones now, and we, Becky’s learned a lot of the ins and outs of putting these together. Shout out to Becky. And, um, but it’s really, it’s really empowering and you call them magic spells like that.

When we have these conversations, all of a sudden after these conversations, things become real. Yeah. Because we’re putting our energy towards these things. Yes. It’s really amazing.

Ashley: You’re carving out the time. You’re prioritizing it.

Christina: Yeah.

Ashley: And I think that that’s something in my, in my relationship with you that I see you do very well is to prioritize time for the pieces that you want to grow in your life.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I am good at that. I’ve always been good at that. I’m not sure why. But that is true.

Ashley: And that feels counter-cultural.

Christina: Yeah.

Ashley: Because it’s, it’s, it’s prioritizing things that aren’t really on the, on the normal priority list.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Right.

Ashley: You know,

Becky: because there’s no obvious, like what are you producing from that we’re so programmed that like everyth everything that you do.

So it’s like time is money, time. And you know, time does have a physical property to it, but it’s like, what does product, you said this what, like what redefining what productivity looks like. Mm-hmm. So, um, shifting what value?

Yes. What what is valuable.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: And I believe once you put the time, once you devote your resource of time toward the things that matter to you, the rest of it sort of figures itself out in a way that’s really beautiful. So it, I think it’s a lot. I mean, I’m, I like to trust that it works out. And it usually does, but it’s because I really believe it will. Um, so even just, we’ve been doing this for just a couple of months at this point, and the, I feel so expanded from these conversations and they have expanded and rippled out into other acquaintances even where I might share something and, uh, my kid’s friend’s parent might reach out and say, I’m loving this.

I’m really loving this. And then I get to have a really deep conversation with my kids’ friend’s parent. That’s what I want. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don’t wanna just have the little flippant conversations, that’s not me. Yeah. This is so nice.

Ashley: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christina: And then we get to have Ashley come in and like, we all get to spend time together having these conversations.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Yeah. And they deepen every day in a way that isn’t really happening or hasn’t happened quite as often in my life anyway.

Becky: Mm-hmm. And what was coming up as you were speaking was like, uh, this, this trust, like trusting, I think trust doesn’t come as easily to everyone, you know?

Yeah. Especially like, um, if you grow up, like you we’re, we’re just so formed when we’re little babies. Yeah. And if there’s not a sense of safety there, it is hard to trust later, you know? Mm-hmm. And, but it’s like you show it. That’s why it’s so beautiful. Like whatever, though the universe, uh, assembled itself in you with this lineage so that you could feel trust and safety so easily so you can show it.

No, really. You can. It’s okay.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: Because you have to see something before you can believe it’s possible.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I remember even in high school, my dad saying, what did he say? He said something like, sometimes I’ll have an idea and I’ll just throw it up into the universe. And he’s like a, he’s a very God believing man.

He would use that language now, but throw it up into the universe and then usually it comes back to find me.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: So I was guided by that. Yeah.

Becky: And when I experiment with that in my own life, I see that that’s true.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: But it’s like it takes a little bit of trust to, it takes trust to have a counterbalance to all the voices is what I find.

Ashley: Yeah.

Becky: All the voices that want to tell you you can’t trust and there’s lots, yeah. At least in my head, there’s lots of voices. Um, but it’s like coming back to can I be with that? It’s not, I’m not trying to kick those voices out. I think that would be a futile exercise. Like they’re quieter, you know? Mm-hmm.

Um, but can I be with them and can I listen to what they’re saying and say, yeah, you say this, but when I actually go out and prove it, I learn that I can trust and things will fall into place. So it’s just this, this dance. Mm-hmm. All in my head.

Ashley: Well, what’s coming up for me in that is trust on the outside of yourself, but trust also on the inside of yourself.

Um, I grew up in a very religious household, a, a southern Christian household and part of what I think I took away, probably not in, in a way that Christianity or the church would want to own this part, but a lack of trust in myself. It was always that I needed to trust or rely on something outside of myself, which would be God or a sign or something. Um, and that I needed to not trust myself because I was bad.

And that’s, that stayed, I think that has stayed all the way through and it’s really in the last couple of years that I’ve started to recognize that, um, one of the struggles that I’ve had is, is who am I and what is Ashley?

Um, and we, Becky and I have talked about that in how do you recognize really what is authentically you and what, what is programming? Mm-hmm. Um. Because there’s a lot of things that are programmed into us that we choose. Um, there’s a lot of cultural things that we hold as maybe us, but aren’t really us.

So in, in the last couple of years, I’ve been diving into what is and who is Ashley and how can I learn to, um, trust people around me, but also to trust myself in what is actually me and what is authentically me. And that can, um, one of the practices that I started to, um, to take on in my life was listening hard for that small voice.

Um, and the small voice can say things like, I need to take a pause before I start this podcast because I need to shake it out. Um, but it can also be really wild and weird, which happened for me in the spring in a conversation that you and I had, which was, who am I? How do I know what my voice, my inside, my internal voice is?

And the voice that one crazy thing that I talked about with you was,

Christina: I’m so happy

Ashley: I have this, I’ve had this thought for a long time and you know, maybe this is me, I’m not sure, but it’s, it’s really strange. And you asked, what is what, what is the message? And it was, um, I want to bury myself in my backyard.

And your response was, well have you, what? What’s stopping you?

Christina: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And I had no answer to what was stopping me other than, well, it kind of sounds crazy. Mm-hmm. Um, and then that was your response. Well, that’s how you know that that’s a cultural conditioning and not you, when your, your judgment of the thought is.

That’s crazy.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: So I did, I did that in the spring when we were getting our backyard garden ready. That, that really felt like one of the first steps in. I, I had made a big transition in my life in the spring where I had left my career of graphic design and art direction. Um, and I was kind of in this fumbling place and that was one of the first actions that I took in that time to try to, to try to ground myself in myself.

Um, so my husband took our tractor and dug a big hole in the backyard, and I got in my bathing suit and my youngest son, Jesse who was eight at the time, joined me in the backyard and we. Buried ourselves. Our heads were above ground, but the rest of our body was below the earth and it was a very wild sensation because the earth is heavy.

The ground is heavy. The sun was hot once the sun was shining on our faces. It was the, the dirt was hot. Um, but it was, it, my whole family stood around and, and thought it was the craziest thing they had ever seen. I had my extended family come and join and observe and, and say, say, this is what, how some horror movies start, you know?

Christina: Oh my God. It gives me, it gives hearing you tell this whole story like in person. ‘cause I think I’ve heard it from you on the phone, but. It just like makes my whole body come alive. It’s incredible. Going from like, I think beauty is a core value of mine to like, in the same hand being like, I’m gonna try to take $200 and like, put it towards me every month.

. And my loves and passions and ideas to then planting yourself in the ground with your kid.

.

Christina: That is a spectrum that most people do not cross, and I feel like what an incredible opening for you to then just like, like dig into what it means to not be gainfully employed. You are somebody, you’re like the single person in my community that.

Is doing the thing that many people wanna do and that is one of the things that I was really hoping you would talk about today, because it’s tender. So I didn’t know if you’d want to, ‘ cause I recognize like new things can feel really raw and scary to say. But I would also say that I think talking about it is really important because then you’re making it real.

Ashley: Yeah.

Becky: And giving permission to others.

Christina: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: Well that, in leaving a job, which I think that that’s the thing that you’re referring to many people in your life wanna do, not the burying themselves in their backyard.

Becky: Well, I thought that I, well I, not the bearing, but like the doing the crazy, crazy unquote crazy thing, like to do it.

I’m also so impressed that you, like, you didn’t just do it, you invited people. It’s amazing to witness you like that is powerful. Yeah. Cool. I didn’t know that part before, but the whole time you were telling it, I was like, my body was just like we’re writing. Yeah. It’s so cool.

Ashley: Yeah. And for example, so I haven’t had many people in my life also leave their career that isn’t something that I hear unless somebody has left for a health reason.

Or for, um, having a child or caretaking in some, in some aspect. Um, and they’re like, that plays into this part too, because I have three children and I had very short maternity leaves with each one, um, but have worked all the way through in full-time work. and now that they’re becoming teenagers, I actually feel a different, a different need and desire to be with them in this time. And I think what I observed from many of the people in my life was that there was a need and a desire to be with their children when they were born. And in those first few years. Um, and if I’m being totally honest, I was really glad to have some time away when they were, when they were little and have a, a, you know, a purpose and a job and a cup of coffee and some silence in those early years.

But I, I also didn’t choose to leave my job just because of my kiddos. It was that I had hit a, a point of knowing that I was doing something that I no longer wanted to do and when we hit midlife, I think many of us have lots of responsibilities and have many assets that we need to pay for because there’s bills that come in.

Um, and I think a lot of us feel that we have no choice and we have to keep our jobs. Um, and, and I had, I am fortunate to have my partner, my husband, who was willing to figure out his, his side of our financial picture to like kind of like take a little bit more on so that I could take a break. and I had never heard of somebody doing that.

I had a friend at a job that I had worked at a few years back who did do this. And at the time. I thought it was cuckoo bananas and I was really worried about her, and I would often send her jobs.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And she was very graceful and was, and was never, never, um, uh, you know, trying to explain herself.

She didn’t actually feel the need to explain herself. I think she was, she was figuring things out for herself and she made that choice to take a break and to kind of recalibrate herself so that she could find the place that she needed to be. . And her example had been her partner who did the same thing who was in the restaurant industry, um, really needed to take a break from it and took six months, uh, to run and to hike and to be, and that also at the time that I was hearing about all this, sounded very crazy.

Um, but those two humans became mentors in this, in, in doing this. And, and it’s not easy. It’s not an easy choice. It, it comes with, um, consequences, uh, you know, financial, um, having to cut back on things, having to pick up different responsibilities in new ways. But also at 40, um, after having a career for, you know, 20 years saying, wait, what?

Who, what, who am I? This is who I’ve been. This is how people know me. This is. This is how I pace my life. This is my life pace is checking email. All of the time is going over the to-do list of what is upcoming. Trying to figure out how I’m going to piece together the different things and who I need to talk to and what meetings I have.

And when all of that just went away, I crashed.

Christina: Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. Hard. We

Ashley: touched hard. Yeah. Crashed very hard. Um, and my friend who did this told me she crashed very hard in the beginning. And, and I think that’s because there, there’s a lot of things that are unprocessed. Um, that we, when we’re able to stay busy, which that was one of the huge catalysts for this, was our cultural epidemic of busyness.

I was so good at being busy. And I still struggle with being busy. Yeah. Because being busy has this twofold, um, it can be seen as such a good thing you are working so hard. Of course we’ll let you have this time of court. Oh, you’re so, you are so busy, you know, so productive.

You keep going, keep going. We’ll let you just keep going. You got, you got a lot of, um, grace, I guess. You get, you’re important. You’re doing important things. Um, but it was a distraction from, from myself and from some of the work that I needed to do on the inside. And I think it’s easy to just keep in that busyness because it pays you, it, is respected by our culture and our society.

And it’s what we’re familiar with. That’s, that’s, that’s how our bodies are moving. And so some people, when they take a vacation, they feel like it takes a good three or four days to come down and settle, settle into vacation mode and, and turn off that because it’s years and years and years of your brain being in hyper product production mode.

And in the last 10 years for us, in, in corporate work life and in everybody’s lives, but especially in corporate life, you are available 24 7.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: Mm-hmm. You can check an email at any moment, you can get, take a call. You know, if it’s really important, you should be available.

Becky: And that’s applauded. That’s what’s rewarded is how much you’ve sacrificed your own life.

Ashley: Yes, yes. Yeah. And how enthusiastic you are and how you’re giving your whole self to something so that maybe after 20 years you’ve lost yourself and you don’t really know what yourself is any longer. Um, so in, in making this choice, that’s what I’ve been coming home to is, is sitting with a discomfort.

Sitting with the unknown. Um, trying to lean in and listen to the still small voices that, that are pushing me in different directions. And then also another thing that I had set, I had told myself when I decided to exit my career was that I wa I wasn’t going to allow myself to take on any freelance or any work in the first three months because I knew that that would be a slippery slope and that I would just continue probably on the path that, um, could ease us financially. Could continue to keep me a little bit distracted from the work that I was really trying to set out to do. Mm-hmm. Um, and that was, that was a really helpful, um, parameter for myself to set.

Becky: It was so smart to set that up.

Like it’s very intentional.

Ashley: Yeah, yeah.

Becky: Yeah. This crash that you’re talking about happened to me when I quit my job and I was not prepared for it. It took me so long to like, it sent me into depression. So I think I love that you’re speaking to this. ‘cause I think people have a misconception of like, no, you quit your job.

You have all this time.

Ashley: You’re so free.

Becky: Yeah. You’re so free. And it’s a whole, I frame this around meditation as well, where it’s like, you think you’re going to get quiet. Well, when you get quiet or you imagine a body of water, the water gets still all of a sudden everything that was under the surface that that busyness.

Was, you know, rippling the water so you couldn’t see it. It comes to your consciousness.

Christina: Beautiful.

Becky: I’m so grateful that you had mentors and you had support, because if you don’t, it, it’s the same thing with meditation. If you have a lot of things under the surface that have been kind of pushed, pushed down, they do come to the surface.

Mm-hmm. When you get quiet and when you quit your job, that’s like still waters.

Becky: So if you don’t have resources, um, it’s challenging. Mm-hmm. It’s really challenging. It was challenging for me for a lot of times. It brought everything that, that I wasn’t processing by being busy, uh, to the surface. So it’s a journey.

Ashley: It was amazing how many times I would pick up my phone to check my email.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: And be like, oh, yeah, yeah. I don’t, nobody’s emailing me anymore. But it’s such a, a muscle memory response to be checking my phone all the time

Becky: I, I keep, uh, quitting Instagram because it’s,

Christina: I do this all the time too.

Becky: Oh my God, it’s so fast. But like when I, the first time I really quit, I started to notice how often I would pick up my phone and have no idea why. So this is my latest obsession. It’s like really bringing to the surface of consciousness how all of these, um, systems that we interact with on a daily basis in our modern world, all these technologies are designed intentionally to take our attention mm-hmm.

To make us pick up the phone without even thinking about it. Mm-hmm. You know, we’re So, because like when you’re, where you’re in a corporate job for 20 years or. Whatever. When you’re steeped in the modern culture and it’s just, you’re just in the water, you don’t notice these things.

You don’t question anything because it’s just like, I’m going with the flow, you know? And there’s so many systems in our world that are designed to keep us that way. And I don’t mean in some nefarious, like some evil person, but like the motivating factors of our society are in capturing attention.

We live in an attention economy, you know, and it keeps us distracted. My point is, the culture of corporate culture of our modern culture is very much distract, distract, distract, distract. And when you pull the plug, it’s like, no more distractions. Sounds wonderful, but like yeah. It’s that process of

stripping all that stuff out and seeing what’s under the surface. Yeah. And then being with it. Yeah. Learning how to be with it. Yeah. It’s hard. That’s what I don’t think people realize. It’s like yeah.

Christina: Or like maybe that’s why they keep themselves so busy so that they don’t have to do the difficult thing.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Um, I really like to go into sensory deprivation flow pods and anytime I mention it to people, it’s very frightening to them thinking of going in and being with their thoughts in complete darkness, floating in water that’s exactly the same temperature as your body. So that eventually you lose awareness of where you end and the water begins.

It really does put you in a place of complete nothingness. And, um, there are a lot of people, like most of the time people will be like, Nope, couldn’t do that. Definitely not. Hold on, I gotta check my email. You know?

Becky: For sure.

Christina: Because you go in there and it’s something that I like to build in. Um. I don’t know, probably like every other month or so.

And it’s a beautiful thing because you go in and your brain is like, you know? And eventually, ‘cause you’re in there for about 90 minutes and that can feel like an eternity or it can feel so brief. And eventually the thoughts stop because they have to, there’s no stimulus stimulating that,

Ashley: that’s so interesting.

I was thinking about this actually on the drive in, because I passed a few places that, a couple places actually.

Christina: Funny,

Ashley: that are the sensory deprivation Yeah. Tanks. And I was thinking about you because you’re somebody, you’re the only person I know who’s done this, but I was wondering if you were still doing it.

Yeah. Because I was wondering if cold plunging had replaced that for you and, and in my cycle of that, it was, well, yeah, she probably doesn’t do this anymore because she’s such a, such a sensory person.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: That she, she probably enjoys the the sensory overload in cold plunging of like visual beauty.

Yeah. You know, with the physical aspect of it.

Christina: Hmm.

Ashley: Um, but that’s, so, I’m, that’s

Christina: funny. Yeah. I do do it, but I do it on, um, at this point, cold plunging is a weekly practice, so that’s like a daily emptying or every other day emptying, which does give me a lot of sensory feedback in actually being in nature.

Like, I’m not in a tub in my backyard, I’m in the ocean with you or other people, or you, both of you we’re gonna do that after we record this podcast. Um, and then, yeah. The, the sensory deprivation pods are like four times a year. ‘cause it’s a, it’s a much deeper emptying. I’m, I’m honestly like, I even wanna do a dark retreat.

Have you heard of these things? I think I shared it with you. Only from you. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. You’re welcome. But, but that sounds like you’re welcome. It feels to me like the ultimate, and you go in for three days. They build in an integration day at the end of it, which I think is really smart. And you’re in complete darkness.

Complete darkness. All things are pointing me there lately. Like, I feel like all the things that I see in meditation, all the things, all, all my dreams, these visions, lots of things are happening for me lately. And I wonder what would happen, what could possibly happen in three full days in complete darkness.

I don’t know. It does not scare me. Although I think I would get some flutters ahead of that because that’s a pretty big commitment. Um, and I’m not going into it in some sort of like midlife crisis situation, which I, I think maybe many people might go just to be there and like actually really like sweat it all out, you know?

That’s my metaphor for getting rid of all of your inner things. Um, but, but yeah, I don’t know. I, I’m thinking about it. I don’t, yeah. I like being with myself.

Ashley: So What’s stopping you?

Christina: Yeah. Money right now

Becky: actually, because there’s only only one in the country

Christina: that

Becky: does it.

Christina: There’s one and it’s all the way across the, it’s

Becky: like an Oregon.

Christina: Yeah, it’s an Oregon. Funny enough, it’s exactly where our like very, very close to where we got our dog. Interesting. Which felt like this divine like beam that came across and I wouldn’t normally go cross country to get a dingo but we got him and I dreamt about him too.

It’s funny, uh, yeah. What’s stopping me is the fact that I’ve given myself three months of slowness, which means that there is less actual income coming in from me, but it is a line item on my future budget planning.

Becky: Yes.

Christina: Yeah I really think I would love to do it um, because at this point I’ve finally accepted the fact that, um, I, the cold punching is an important thing for me and my thoughts and my life.

Um, you know, quarterly sensory deprivation pods, um, lots of silence. And I do like maybe two times a year, five day breaks by myself in solitude. Not an actual silent retreat, but it’s just me in a place that’s beautiful being quiet intentionally. Those are things that I’ve now built into the year and for the foreseeable future I’ll continue to do that because they are so rewarding.

But, um, yeah.

Ashley: When did you, when did you start to incorporate those pieces into your life?

Christina: Um, slowly over the last three years probably. Um, uh, building this studio took a lot of bravery out of me. And I think I also was at a point where you were, where I was really good at being busy and I had just brought twins through toddlerhood and that is a lot um, and I think I finally just admitted to myself that I needed to, to be quiet more. ‘cause it was incredibly rewarding and it’s hard for me to discern. If it was because of being busy with work. ‘cause at that point I was working for myself, which you can choose how busy you are. And I didn’t feel beholden to some boss, which helped.

I think probably everything, like everything had filled my to-do list for so long without breaks that I just finally realized, well shoot, I have to build those in for myself and the only person that gives me permission to do that is me, because I don’t have a partner who challenges my requests.

And so anytime I said, I think I need to do this, Andrew, he was like, great, you totally should. I’ll figure it out. And then he realized, I think I want that too. And it’s been so beautiful to watch each other take time to expand alone and then come back together, um, whole. Yeah, that’s been very very important. So, um, yeah. And then, and then the money part of it is always so frictiony because it costs money to go away for five days. It costs other things too to go away for five days and to just claim that as something that’s important to you when not many other people are really doing that is scary.

And at the same time, the more I do it, the more friends are like, what? Tell me what you did. Yeah. What is, what is it? You go, you’re not going on like a girls’ weekend.

You’re not going on a girls’ trip. You’re not going with your family. You’re what? It’s so unfamiliar. .

Counter-cultural to just like tend to yourself

for yourself. I was talking with my brother-in-law recently who um, has a job related to government affairs, which is a very tricky time to have a job like that. And he’s a spiritual man and, um, I had written this thing about solitude after I went and took this break and my sister sent it to him and shared it to him and he took it with him and read it on the beach.

‘cause he has a practice of tending to his own solitude, but he also wants to provide for his family all the time. And like, you know, you have the role of provider and he and I were talking and, um, he booked himself a little three day retreat, which is really, really scary for him. Um, and I was like, dude, you of all people at the time that we find ourselves in the world right now, just as like, just as you would go to get a physical every year at your doctor’s office

you, you should, here’s your prescription.

Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: For me

Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: To go and, and check on your silence.

Like, just check on it. Just check on it. Get your silence checkup. And he was like, I’m sorry, can you repeat that please? And I did. And so now I have a little reminder in my phone to just check on him, to check on his silence, which is nothing to add to my plate.

Just a quick little ping.

How’s your silence doing today? I love it.

Christina: Um, it’s scary to be quiet with yourself.

It’s scary to stop the train and discern where you are and actually admit if it doesn’t align with what you’re really wanting. So many people are here.

Ashley: Yeah. But just showing the way, showing something different

helps to give permission and helps people to wrap their minds around what it could actually look like. I think our busyness keeps us from making plans to do those kinds of things for ourself. We can plan the dentist, we can plan the doctor, we can plan the family vacation. But to, to plan for your silence.

That’s not something that anyone so silly is doing, but I know, but it’s so clarifying. It’s so clarifying. And I, I think that there’s microdosing we can do of that, which is, you know, daily practices of journaling or cold plunging or taking a walk. Um, but you, that, that is almost like another thing that’s scheduled into our busy schedule. So it’s, it’s in, in the way that it’s hard to come down in a vacation. Like if you, this is your lifestyle of busyness and you’re, okay, now I’m in my journaling moment. Okay. Now that journaling moment’s over to really, really extend that time in a multiple day, um, gift is, it makes a lot of sense.

It makes a lot of sense for a lot of us who are struggling with, with who we are and how we’re showing up in the world as it is today.

Christina: Mm-hmm. And I think, like, I would just check in with my body after those micro doses that I started weaving in. Like, okay, I can at least take 25 minutes to go cold plunge a couple times a week in the morning.

And it’s okay if I leave people screaming at home, and then I would realize like, whew, my body feels so much better right now. Yeah. And then the more that I microdosed that, the more that I would search for more of it.

And, and just like the feeling that I had in myself was the reason enough to continue looking for it.

The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.

Ashley: Hi, I’m on a jog, um, Sunday morning. Golden. Autumn run and listening to episode five, and I had to pause halfway, first of all, to send you Jesse’s school picture. And second of all, um, what you’re talking about, you guys are talking about binaries of good and bad. Um. Becky, right now you’re going into talking about how you had to address your insecurity and come home to yourself before you could expand to the world.

And all of that is resonating so deeply because I feel like that’s what this year has been for me. It’s been a, pausing on what I have I have built my life to be.

Um, it is truly my favorite podcast to listen to, because you are just, you just talk about everything.

Everything that is, is bouncing around my mind and everything that I’m working on in this year, specifically in a, in a very concentrated way. Um, it’s been a powerful reset to reconnect with the still small voice and to feel love and gratefulness for the essence of me that I don’t think I have ever

really, like, truly embraced. I think that there’s moments of course, like that essence has always been here. It’s not like I’ve been apart from it, but it’s just this deeper, closer, more intimate knowing and recognition of it.

Um, and both of you, have been pivotal characters in the development of this part of my story. And I feel so lucky and, and I have so much love for both of you. Anyway, happy Sunday morning ladies. Thanks for filling my cup and giving me this joyful Sunday morning thoughts to chew on.

Love you both.

This week we talk about fertilizing the seed, being captured by fear, how manifestation has a good companion in generosity, and how daily practices can nurture the “be the seed” stage.

We also touch on slow growth vs. fast growth and where AI fits into the future we want to seed. If you want to gain more knowledge on Open AI, check out the two-part episode of the podcast Corporate Gossip, “OpenAI & Sam Altman’s Sad Sack Band of Goons” and “Sam Altman & Open AI Part 2: King D*ck of Liar Mountain”

If you want to start practicing taking back your attention from the forces of AI, whenever you do an internet search, include “-ai” at the end!

As always, if you want to learn more about Christina’s and Becky’s work outside of this podcast, check out our websites:

christinawatka.com

beckydecicco.com

Episode Transcript

Christina: I am on my way to therapy right now, and I, uh, I am, gosh, this is such a funny time. This is such a funny time. Fertile, dark soil. Like I just picked up. I just went to my little local bookstore and they, I had them order me some books that I’ve been looking for that they didn’t have. So that’s like one of the ways that I choose to support community is like waiting a week or two until the books come in and then I buy them from the store.

One is this writer who’s talking about how her garden invited her into slow time. The other one is “ Lifeform” by Jenny Slate. And Jenny Slate is just funny. And it’s just essays. It’s just essays about her life. Becoming a mother, finding herself. Like, what the fuck? Why don’t I just do this? What am I doing? I wanna do this. I’m at the point right now where like I’m living a dream and I’m also seeing these other people who are doing things in the world creatively, and I’m like, Ooh. You know how I heard this one phrase once about how envy is a

is a really beautiful way to discover what we want. And like, I don’t necessarily even feel envious, envious of these people. I just feel curious like what would it be like to do that? To like release a book? To publish a book? And I think I wanna do it. I, you know what? I don’t think I want to do it. I want to focus more time writing.

Wow. I don’t know. Oh my gosh.

Becky: Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing And Everything At The Same Time. In this episode, we talk about fertilizing the seed. Being captured by fear. How manifestation has a really good companion in generosity. The value of practicing the art of the pause in order to make conscious choice. And the dazzle of Chat GPT, and why I ended my relationship with it.

I hope you enjoy.

Christina: I have arrived.

You have arrived.

I know. Yeah. How are you arriving?

Becky: I’m arriving. Um, wonderful. I just meditated right before. Which is lovely with Jasper in his little nest. Of course.

Christina: Love it.

Becky: Yeah. And I’m arriving today with a lot of gratitude. Um, it was really hitting me last night, especially. It’s hitting me how grateful I am for this podcast, for our friendship.

It’s just been just such a beautiful practice of reflection going back and, um, when I edit the podcast, when I re-listened to it after it’s out in the world. Um, and that stemmed from just my perfectionism of like wanting to listen over and over again ‘cause I care about the quality and wanting to look for errors and things like that.

And now it’s morphed into this really powerful practice of reflection. Because I’ve always been a journaler. That’s been my primary mode of reflection in the past, but I don’t go back and reread my journals, you know? Mm-hmm. Or like, even in therapy, like, it’s so powerful. But I don’t go back necessarily and revisit, and this probably is something that I’ve learned from you because I have witnessed you doing a lot of reflection and like going back to things you’ve written and going back to, you know, your own voice memos.

And, I’m now settling into the wisdom of this is so powerful and I can watch myself go through this practice and it is a practice because at first, you know, I’m confronted with all these critical voices. Hmm. And so I have to go through the practice of sitting with those and being really present and finding safety, and then letting those critical voices go away instead of it getting in the way of something like, I can see if these critical voices get in the way I’m not going to show up for you and for whoever’s listening in the most authentic way. And so I, I have this motivation to do that work and sit with those critical voices and let them flow through so that I can come back to, just to emptiness.

It really does feel like this process of emptiness every time I re-listen and I’m hearing new things with fresh ears , and then I’m actually practicing the things that, that I say. So deepening my own knowledge and practicing the things that you say, like, I found myself last night in this vivid, visceral experience of being the seed.

Whoa. Yeah. What was that? It was, so it started in my mind as most things do with me, right? As like thinking about, I was thinking about resources , because so often I, I can go to scarcity if I’m worried about having the resources I need for my life to sustain my life. Right? Which I think in the, I think a lot of people can struggle with that because we, me too.

Yeah. Everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was just noticing how quickly that takes me to the future, right. This worry of the future. Because right now all of my needs are met, you know? So it is this practice of, okay, coming back to the seed of what if I had all my resources met? The business was humming.

You know, I had all the resources. I didn’t have this worry. So that’s like the tree that will grow out of the seed.

Christina: Hmm.

Becky: So it started in a, in a thought experiment of what would my thoughts, beliefs, and actions, how would they be different if the seed had already grown, right?

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: So it started as this thought experiment and then I just shifted into like this real visceral experience in my body of, it’s hard to describe ‘cause it really is just like this feeling and knowing, but it’s like I could feel in my body what it would feel like once I have all my resources met and I don’t have to have that worry. And what would that look like? Well, I would go slower. I think so often I don’t allow myself that slowness because I’m captured by our culture of hustle and our culture of fast. You know? But if I had all my resources met, I wouldn’t care about the culture.

Christina: Right? This is so, this is why I love you so much, because you’re explaining something that like I have always done in my life, not consciously. So it’s actually, this is why I love this podcast too, and for nothing more than just deepening these conversations and all of the ripples and layers that come from them.

I remember having a conversation with my parents recently. ‘cause this, in this whole awakening time, I’ve called them a lot and been like, did you know this? What did you, what’s your what? What? And, and you know, I don’t think that they are thinking too much about, like, I don’t think they’re analyzing a lot of things, so they actually have to kind of reach in and think, which I love.

But they, um, I remember when I was talking with them about just sort of like the track of the way that my life has gone and where I’ve ended up. And I’m meaning where I’ve ended up has been in the dream that I’ve held so dear to me. And I’m, I’m very, very aware that I’m living it every day now and. And I remember my dad stopping the conversation ‘cause they were both on speakerphone together in the car.

And he was like, yeah, but Chris, how did you know? Like how did you know to follow, like how did you know how to follow your gut or whatever? Um, and it’s an important question for me to think about as I move forward and, and deepen this practice. But I think the way that you’re explaining that is helping me understand that I have always, it’s always been an obvious choice for me to be in the seed stage to like put myself in the perspective of the seed and consciously or unconsciously cultivate the soil around me.

Mm-hmm. Meaning the biggest example that I can use right now is the building I’m sitting in, like when the studio is being built, I would go into that future scary place and start to spin out. Like every human being does. Yeah. And some of us get more captivated by that spinning than others. And I would recognize it and say, oh, oh, oh, oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Go to the fertile place. Go to the place that makes you feel the most alive in this dream and spend frequent time there. So for me, that looked like disregarding the budget, which is a real life issue that I had to face. But before I would face it, I would always go to the place where I felt the most inspired and excited for the idea, which meant standing literally in the pile of sticks and dirt that was going to be this building, this dream, and visualize it and get excited about it.

And picture myself standing in it. Sitting in it, and looking from the inside out. And I think that’s, I think that’s what it looks like looked like in that situation, to be the seed. To like be in the seeds place. And I think if we start to go into the future too much, then it’s almost as if we are giving, I don’t know if it’s almost as if I think it is, we are giving our energy towards what we fear and not towards what we want.

And so when we do that, then the fear becomes real. Right? Yeah. Like you pave the, you pave the road for that.

Becky: Absolutely. Mm. And this is such in line with everything I’ve ever known, not ever known, but since I’ve been on this path of, um, spirituality, consciousness. It’s how I understand, for lack of a better word, I know the word manifestation has some baggage, but you know, in the core sense of how do we create things in our life.

Visualizing is part of it, but it’s from living in that frequency. It’s from, it’s from resonating, like things appear in your life when you are vibrating at a frequency that matches that thing, well, that’s what you’re doing by being in that place and being the seed in what I felt in my body last night and I have felt in my body before, but this is such a conscious, um, attuning to it.

You are matching that vibration of the studio’s already there and you have all the resources you need for the studio. So that’s what kind of resonates back. And yes, when you’re going to the future, you’re offering your attention often to the worst case scenario. Right? A lot of, yeah. We’re not like going to the future when we’re captured.

We’re not going to the future and imagining how great it could be, you could, like, you could say you’re going to the future when you’re standing in that space, but you are envisioning the best case, like what you want. So you’re offering your attention and you’re vibration, your feeling in your body to what you actually consciously want and not like the fears aren’t conscious.

Those are all, that’s like your subconscious programming. Um. So, yeah, it would make so much sense that now you would be sitting in this place that you created ‘cause you did it so intentionally.

Christina: Right? I did, I did. Sometimes I, you know, if I am, if I see people talking, you’re right that the word manifestation has a lot of baggage because sometimes I’ll see people being like, manifest your dream, like bajillion dollars or your dream blah, blah blahs.

And it feels very pitchy. Yeah. And I don’t, I don’t like that. So, um, and at the same time, I know what it feels like to be very afraid of the thing that feels true in you and to bravely go after that thing by putting yourself in the place of, of like living in the dream and visualizing the dream of it.

Mm-hmm. Um, but I guess they’re kind of the same thing they’re just spoken about in different ways, maybe.

Becky: Yeah. And what I’ve observed from kind of being heavily, I started in that world. In that world meaning like the world of The Secret, the world of manifestation, and, and then pulling way back out of that world and was totally disillusioned by it.

And now coming back to it from a much more grounded place. It’s like, it’s like in a lot of things where there’s a kernel of really tr of truth. There’s a kernel of truth there. It’s, for some reason cults are coming to mind, right? Like, yeah, yeah. Most cults start with like this beautiful core, but then the ego Yeah.

Of usually the founder and the unexamined subconscious of the followers taints it completely. Mm-hmm. So. I’m coming to it now from this place of this is true, there is truth here, and it’s only half of the puzzle. So it’s mm-hmm. It’s, it’s, you know, the yin and the yang. It’s the lightness and the dark.

It’s the energetic world and the material world. It’s not one or the other. It’s, you know, what you can do with your mind and your consciousness and what your body has experienced, what your ancestors have experienced, what the other bodies in this world that we are interconnected with what they’re experiencing.

So I just think a lot of that world has so much baggage because it’s so tied to, um, I mean, it’s steeped in capitalism and mm-hmm. White supremacy and, and it’s just missing. It’s missing, it’s missing the, uh, I think a lot of times the sh the shadow or the, the physical realm. Mm.

Christina: Yeah. And, and sometimes it can feel a little performative to me like, like ma you know, get your Pinterest dream kitchen manifest, your perfect sculpted husband, man partner.

Mm-hmm. You know? And, um, I had to get over that. I had to get over that to do this. And it was, I don’t know if I’ve said this on here or not, but it was actually my grandmother. Who hilariously calls herself a cow, which stands for cranky old woman, which she’s not. I don’t find her to be cranky.

I just find her to be blunt and real, which I admire. And I remember talking to her about it and saying how frightening it was. ‘cause it was so expensive. And, um,

Becky: The studio was so expensive.

Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she was like, that’s crazy. This is just a tool for you. It’s just a tool for you to use to make a bigger difference in your world, Christina.

And that was like, but she basically just wrote me a permission slip for doing it. And that along with like, I had this sort of download when I was driving that. I, it just clicked and it was like a switch flipped. All of a sudden it was like, oh, I don’t remember if grandma had talked to me yet or not, but it was sort of the same message of like, this is actually not for you. This is for you to share and the community, and it’s already happening. Like it already happens in here I hosted community Reiki in here yesterday. So it’s not just for me, I believe fully that this is a space that’s meant to be shared. Um, and once I realized that, it was like, oh, okay. I would gladly give all that money away, so I’m totally gonna do this so that I can give it away.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: And so it aligned, it aligned with me and what I feel like my role is in my lifetime now, for me to actually be in here and make beautiful art and write or whatever it is that I do in here, sing and dance and all that stuff. And also I love generosity is a core. Uh, value for me. Mm-hmm. So being able to share it worked as well.

Um, yeah. Yeah.

Becky: I, I share that sentiment of, um, you know, I don’t want to have a big thriving business because I, I want to have a big spotlight on me.

Mm-hmm. That has zero interest. I mean, you, I was just re-listening to the podcast where I was talking about this image of me being forced onto the stage, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, but, you know, I need resources to live my life and so I can live outside of scarcity. Mm-hmm. ‘cause the more I can live outside of scarcity, the more I can be present and be the seed and, and not be captured by those thoughts. Um, and yeah, I would give every, like I, I, I want all the resources so I can give away more and more for free. I would give everything away for free. That would be a dream. Um, so yeah, that’s the dream. Hold it. Oh, I hold it. I, I definitely hold it. But it, then it has to turn into a practice. And because of my ADHD brain, I have to have a system to trigger me to do the practice. So I put it in my system that every morning before I even get out of bed, I close my eyes and I remind myself that I already have all the resources I need, how will this affect how I move through this day? And then to really anchor myself in that. And I’m on day one of it. Right. But that’s why, that’s why I have the systems though, because it’s so easy to forget.

So I literally, I have an app that I use that literally triggers me throughout my day, which I’m gonna be giving out the system for free soon, which makes me really excited because, um, so yeah, that made me lose my train of thought, but I did, something did come up when you were talking about like, um, how you kind of auto, without really consciously thinking about this, how did you live as the seed?

And what came up is, um. Your process as an artist and the type of artist, I guess it’s all artists, but like I was specifically thinking about your murmuration, and that’s kind of not where you started, but that was like your, your first big, um, focus of your career. And I remember you talking about how it moves through your hands five times.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: And like I just had this image of, um, or this knowing of like, you have to know what it’s gonna be like. You literally are being the seed in this very visceral physical process of moving the clay through your hands five times, always holding what it’s gonna be. Mm-hmm. I don’t know if that resonates at all, but that’s what came up for me is like, you have been practicing this, whether consciously or not, but you’ve been practicing this for so long.

Christina: Yeah. Okay. So, yes. Thank you for that. This is a series that’s sort of on its way out. It’s in like it’s winter season of me. I think it’s gonna be gone soon. So it’s really cool to think about the beginnings. Mm-hmm. Um, I think I used to, because I’m very Type A, not very ADHD, but I’m very Type A and I, um, can check off to-do list to a fault and I used to blow through them and miss the moments of seediness.

Mm. I used to think about the goal more and life has rocked that outta me in a really beautiful way, in like a really like hard-ass sculpture teacher in college, in twins, in a pandemic. Like, there are many things that I can point to that rocked me out of my habitual. Like I must know how to get to the end.

Mm-hmm. Um. And, and cross off these, these things on my list. But the, the Murmuration series is a series of these small, for people who don’t know, it’s, I’m, I’m a site specific installation artist mostly. So it’s making lots and lots of small things in a process based nature in my studio that then go and become something much larger in the space that they’re meant to be.

So these are, you know, like quarter sized individual imprints of my thumbs in porcelain. And I began them as a seed, as a moment of a seed. I had been outside, I was looking at barnacle as I was looking at all these little, um, things in nature and patterns in nature, and I was just making these individual imprints and the process itself.

Otherwise called being the seed in the moment, in my little table at my apartment, pressing my thumbs over and over again was this meditative motion that felt really wonderful. And then I just went and put them up on this wall in a shop in, um, south Boston. And then they sort of took off from there. And the first time that I had the opportunity to do them in a permanent fixture, uh, they weren’t even called a Murmuration yet.

It, I had done my process and taped them all out and put them on the wall. And then we took the tape off, which is always the most beautiful reveal. And the interior designer was the one standing next to me and he said, ah, this kind of looks like a murmuration. Oh, wow. And I was like, whoa. And since then I’ve been much more conscious about the process of it and knowing that this these pieces do go through my hands five times between glazing and loading them in the kiln and putting them up finally. And it’s such a, it’s such a, um, attentive process and it’s so they’re each so cared for. And I like to think about it as this energy transfer of like, putting them in their final place, but it, they feel like they could take flight at any moment.

Um, it’s really cool to think about that right now because I’m at a point right now where I have to, um, this is why it’s helpful for me to go back and listen to my own voice memos or my own journal entries or my own conversations with you because I’m so present in these conversations that I might forget what I said.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: And so then to go back and re-listen, I am able to teach myself things I need to remember.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And. You always teach me, but it’s really fascinating to go back and, and hear the thing I need to hear, but I’m the one who said it because I know it, it’s in me somewhere. Mm-hmm. So I’m at this point now where I am very, very much in the place of the seed and I’ve built this dream that I’m sitting in and I think there’s like a really big pivot that’s coming, which is, um, if I were very self-critical, I could think what a waste, what a waste of time and money to spend on something like this where what, you’re here now and you wanna do something else.

Great. Good job. And I could be really critical. I live in that head space for about five seconds, maybe one not long.

Becky: I was gonna say, it did not feel like even when you said it, it didn’t feel like you at all. It’s not, no,

Christina: I know. You have to like shake it off. You just shook it off. I did. It’s not me. That’s not me.

What I, I needed to make this container to realize that I am allowed to pivot inside of it if I need to. You know, and to realize and who knows? I’m, I’m, I don’t know what it’s gonna be. I think it ha I think it has to do with writing and this maybe is part of what it has to do with these conversations, but there are so many seeds I’m planting consciously right now and just, you know, making like a delicate little hole, popping them in there and then nuzzling down and trying not to worry about money.

‘cause it’s very easy to get wrapped up in the money part because I have to make it. Um, but yeah, it’s, it’s a really. It’s an equally fertile and daunting place to be in the dark. Right.

Becky: Aren’t all fertile places in the dark, though? I’m thinking of a womb. Yes. I’m thinking of the earth where the seed is nestled, like

Christina: Yes, exactly.

Exactly. All of this, this, the, what we talked about last time with, you know, good, bad, all these dichotomies, dark light. It does feel like universally we’re kind of all here, certainly in our country we’re here. I’m here. You are here. So many people that I’m talking to right now are in this place of having to be comfortable in this darkness.

Yeah. But really like that’s where the roots grow. You just have to water it and not see it and know that the seed is probably growing and some seeds take longer to actually grow bear fruit or grow flowers than others. So that’s a nice reorientation kind of mantra of like, okay, I don’t know if I have roots yet.

It’s okay if I don’t. Maybe I’m one of those seeds right now that actually takes a little while. I don’t know. Mm.

Becky: I almost got a little lightheaded right there. Like, I don’t know that something came up for me in that it felt, I felt connected to like our individual seeds and then this collective seed and like something about that different pace of all different seeds because, you know, I orient towards, um, our interconnectedness or as Thich Nhat Hahn would say, our inter being.

Christina: Mm.

Becky: And so when you said that like different pace, I just had this like visceral feeling in my. It is, I, it is like a feeling in my body and a knowing of like, what seeds am I planting and what seeds am I planting in the collective that I will probably never see grow? You know, and they’re all at these different paces.

And, um, yeah, I don’t know. It kind of made me a little, little lightheaded in a good way.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, yeah. That’s like what the, that’s what gardening is teaching me. Cultivating the land around this house is teaching me that some things grow slower.

And even some things, um, you know, like a perennial might come out very small the first year and then it needs to go dormant again.

Mm-hmm. And grow back stronger the following year. It’s, it’s just such a beautiful teacher. And just being the person who walks around and just watches it and tries not to like futs with it too much, but just witnesses these, these plants becoming what they’re supposed to become on their own time. Yeah.

And sometimes also like life wrecks them like a, a dog Mr. Can go and goop them up because he’s just being himself Yeah. Dogging around, you know? Yeah. Then they don’t get a chance to grow. It’s all, it’s all a very, very rich metaphor.

Becky: It really is. It’s, it’s really, um, it feels like such a counterbalance to this other thing that’s kind of been rattling around in my brain around, um, AI and technology and kind of, it feels like there’s these two realities that are, are trying to emerge right now and are not trying to emerge. There’s an, the reality that we’re talking about, you know, this tending, this, this like receptivity, this allowing into this darkness, these conversations we are having, which has a very different pace and vibration.

It’s patient, it’s slower, it’s in darkness. And then when I reflect on this world of like AI and, and how, like these techno oligarchs, when I start to offer too much of my attention to that world, I feel frenetic and fast. And, and it, it just feels so fast. Like they’re, there’s an urgency. Like they’re trying to race us towards something.

I mean, they’re building up these data centers like it’s so urgent because China might build theirs faster, and it’s like they’re trying to suck us in to living in this reality that we all know in our being is unsustainable and is destroying our planet and is destroying the fabric of society. We know that you don’t have to dig too far to get that knowledge right?

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: But it’s so prevalent everywhere that it’s, it’s so easy to get sucked into offering our attention to this thing that I think internally we all know is not the future we want to seed. Like those aren’t where our seeds are.

Christina: No,

Becky: That’s, those are the crops that, you know, need to be composted. Those are the crops that have had their time and need to be composted, but because it’s everywhere, like you can’t do an internet search these days without being force fed AI. Although I did learn a trick, you at the end of your search, you do “minus ai” and then you won’t get the ai. So, ooh, everyone. It’s, but it, that’s an extra effort.

Right? You have to gain that knowledge, and then you have to practice doing that every time you do a search, which is a new habit. But to me, that’s one tiny practice or one tiny effort that I am taking away my attention and placing it on the seeds that I wanna build in this world. Mm-hmm. Because I don’t want, mm-hmm.

To seed or tend to a world where there’s data centers everywhere and no one has clean water, you know? Of course. But that takes, that takes effort. Yeah. And, um, it takes friction. I’m realizing like this world that we’ve kind of been fed through all these technologies is to reduce friction everywhere. So like, imagine when you’re buying something, and this is the language that the tech companies use, right?

Like order your groceries with no friction. You don’t have to go there and order your car, your Uber with no friction. You know, get served up AI in your internet search with no friction. And it’s like, I heard someone say recently that the friction is where our humanity is.

Christina: Yes. Yes. That’s literally what I was just all, when you’re saying all of this, it’s taking, it’s taking our human connection away.

Yeah. It’s taking our human connection away. So this is reminding me, um, Paulo is eating everyone’s shoes right now, and last night he ate one of Jack’s, um, shoe laces, and he has one of those, I don’t know if you know this, parents might know this, but it’s a BOA system actually, I think they’re on like hiking boots and stuff too.

But it is like aircraft cable in this little tightener. And he chewed this freaking BOA system aircraft cable. It’s not like a replaceable shoelace. Oh. Um, so, so I went online to try to figure out if we can fix it. This relates, I promise, and

Becky: I always trust you.

Christina: Um, so we went online to see if we could fix it, and it turns out that BOA, um, has a website and you, I could have like chatted with some bot probably and, and figured out how to get a replacement.

So a replacement, here’s the silver lining. We can get it replaced. Great. And, but I, I’m going to after we record this podcast, I’m going to call the mom and shop shoe store that we always buy our shoes at, and I’m gonna talk to the man who’s, who’s been working with the BOA system for literally 75 years.

I know this ‘cause I went and bought a pair of shoes from him in person and I like have a relationship with him in the community now and I get to call him and talk to him about it and like get his, get his feedback and his wisdom and show him that he is a human being who has an opinion that I value and I just, I don’t want to have no human beings at grocery stores and things.

I want to be able to talk to people. Even my, my father-in-law was here recently and he told us a story. He went to the grocery store and the kid, probably high schooler or something who was checking out and bagging the groceries. My father-in-law was like, “Hey man, how’s it going?” Like you would do to anyone.

Yeah. “How was your day?” And sometimes you get the transactional fine. Good. How’s yours? Good. Okay. Bye. Have your, have a good day. But this kid like literally burst into tears and said, “not going well.” Oh, what? Like you have a reaction to that? I had a reaction to that in 30 years are people not going to know how to react to that?

Becky: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: That’s where I, that’s a little, that’s pretty wild to me. I hope not.

Becky: Yeah. So this came up for me yesterday. I kind of had the, of course I had the opposite experience of you did with the uh, shoelaces. ‘cause I was looking for, I had to get kind of a random assortment of things ‘cause I’m like setting up my plants for auto watering and so I was trying to figure out what’s the best solution. Um, and so I was out in the world and I went to my grocery store, like the local grocery store ‘cause they have a bunch of different things. So didn’t quite find what I wanted and I was like, I, I found myself struck by my lack of resourcefulness.

Christina: Hmm.

Becky: Because I was like, well, shit, the only other place I can think of is Target. And I am like actively trying to boycott Target. Mm-hmm. I don’t normally go to Target this is the first time in like a. Probably a year and a half or two years. And no judgment for people who go to Target. This is, yeah.

You know, this is all a practice and a process, but it really struck me, my lack of resourcefulness Mm. In that moment. Um, and yeah, it really just struck me how we’re losing the resourcefulness and we’re actually losing the people with the wisdom, um, and with, with the knowledge. So that’s what really struck me.

I’m like, I don’t wanna lose these skills. I don’t wanna lose the skills of resourcefulness and I don’t wanna lose the skills of how to talk to people. And there is friction among people, but how, what? Like, like that’s friction in that interaction. It’s so much quicker to just get your groceries, not say a thing and move on, but to actually engage it slows it down, creates some friction, probably friction for the people behind you so you have to deal with a little bit of the pressure of people behind you want you to go fast and, but here’s this moment of genuine connection where someone is sharing their hurt.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: What are you going to choose? What, what choices are you going to have access to, because this is why I get really passionate and excited about the gifts that I have been given that I get to hopefully pass on to other people. How do you have access to choice in that moment? To step away from the automatic programming of both your individual life experience and what the culture is trying to get you to do. You have to have access to conscious choice and that is a practice.

You have to have the knowledge of how to do it and you have to practice it. And obviously this is my bias ‘cause this is my lens, but I get excited because I’m seeing more and more the value in what I, what I have been gifted that I get to share. It’s not about me, but if we all had access to choice in more moments of our life, we’d put the minus AI in our searches and take away their ability to choose for us, you know? Mm-hmm. We would go talk to the local shoe guy and keep him in business rather than just defaulting to Amazon and, you know, yeah. Take away a little, our attention is our power and that’s why they spend billions of dollars trying to steal it from us. So the more, if I could affect one person to, to like reorient their attention by accessing conscious choice a little bit more in their life, like that may brings me so much joy.

Christina: Mm-hmm. I mean, it, it, so it’s, yeah. It seems like AI’s job is to just like, make things so much easier for us, right? Is that, I mean, I don’t really know how they’re selling it ‘cause I don’t spend a lot of time paying much attention to it. But, but like, is that sort of, is that sort of the idea like this, we’ll, we’ll take care of this, like AI can take care of this so that you don’t have to do the hard stuff.

Becky: So there’s a lot of, uh, voices in AI, so I don’t think there’s one. Okay. You know, overarching voice, but I just listened to this podcast that was, um, the podcast was called, uh, it’s called Corporate Gossip. It’s kind of fun ‘cause it like, takes these really heavy topics and they, they research different corporations and really like, give you the, they spill the tea as I think they say these days.

So it, it keeps it a little bit lighter, but they’re really exposing really dark things about these corporations. And I listened to one about Sam Altman, who’s the head of Open AI, which gives us Chat GPT. And so if you were to listen to him speak and not dig any deeper, you would think that AI is meant to solve world hunger, solve the climate crisis.

Like it’s all these altruistic things, right? But if you dig deeper, he is a liar and has lied about the capability of Open AI. And they just came out with, um, Soro, which is like their video creation AI, and the technology’s incredible. It can create videos out of just texts that are super realistic. You can’t really tell the difference. So it has massive implications for our ability to discern what’s real and what’s fake.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And yet they rolled it out as a social media platform. So like the truth of what they’re using these AI for is not altruistic in any sense. And, um, like I said, they’re building these data centers that are using potable water.

Like it, they, they can’t use wastewater. It’s all drinkable water that they’re using and they’re putting them in communities that are already at risk of water scarcity. And these are always, you know, poor communities, communities where they’re primarily people of color. So there’s a real underbelly of these AI, like Google now forces it on everyone in their search, unless you do the minus ai, they’ve stopped reporting their energy usage.

They used to commit themselves to reducing their energy emissions. They’ve now just stopped reporting it and they’ve admitted they’ll never meet their goals with AI. And so they’re all just racing towards what? They, it’s the kind of the same thing of they’re putting it under disguise of if we don’t do it someone else will.

Meaning China, which just echoes this like communist red scare bullshit that they, that they propagandize us so that they can just increase their wealth and power. That’s all it ever is about. And it’s all these systems are largely designed by white men. They’re largely designed by people who I would argue don’t have good social skills.

So yeah. Anyway, it’s um. It’s pretty dark. I mean, the training that they do on these models, they act like there’s no, there’s no friction, there’s no humans involved. But there’s entire populations in like Kenya who are looking at horrific videos, images that they have to train the model to say, don’t do this.

Like this is Oh. So yeah, there’ve been like, and they’re paid like next to nothing. They’re totally, taken advantage of. So there’s this huge underbelly of all of these tech platforms, but then it’s served up to us in the, the west as frictionless. Mm-hmm. But so you have to make the effort, you have to access choice to first get the knowledge because they’re not serving it to you, you’re not being served the truth of what AI and these tech oligarchs are doing.

So you have to access the, the knowledge, and then it takes that practice of wisdom to actually change your habits, your thoughts, beliefs, and your actions. And that takes time. So, I mean, we’ve had conversations about Chat GPT and I was very dazzled and I was kind of under this feeling of like, I’m gonna have these conscious conversations with it, and yeah.

Um, at least I’m training it and, and I have no judgment of how I perceived it at that time because I went out and got more knowledge, you know? Mm. So I have now canceled my open AI account, deleted Chat GPT. I just weighed the cost and benefits and it’s like, I think it’s actually making me a worse writer.

It’s not actually helping me. It’s helping me write copy faster. But when I read it back, I’m like, I don’t feel my soul in this.

Christina: Right?

Becky: I do use Claude, which is, um, Anthropic. It’s a two siblings who used to be at OpenAI that started their own company. They left open AI because of the ethical concerns.

There’s no perfect AI company. They still have the whatever, and I use it very sparingly. And now that I know that I can avoid the AI search in Google, I use Claude less and I just do my own research. But I didn’t intend for this to be like a dissertation on AI.

Christina: Well, it’s interest, it’s just an interesting thing because this whole time that you’re talking, I’m, and I’m, and I’m hearing you say that they’re saying, uh, if if we don’t do it, someone else will.

That just makes me realize we need to be having these conversations and seeding the things that really matter to us because even though, you know, it doesn’t have as much quote unquote impact as something as large as an Open AI company, the the small day-to-day morsels that I speaking for myself am am offered and gain from these conversations or from walking slowly around my garden and actually realizing that some plants root slower than others.

Those things are cultivating a quality of life that really, really matters to me. And then from that place, I’m able to expand into my small community here in a way that ripples out very authentically and I believe in encourages that in others. So. I think that’s really, I think that’s really important work to be doing that counteracts all of this other crap.

Becky: That is really the biggest impact you can have. And it is so easy to get caught up in the bigness of these companies and the pervasiveness of these companies and our brains just weren’t meant to process how big the world is and how complex the world is and how many people there are in the world.

But you’re not really, like, you can make small impacts on a big national scale, right? You can vote, you can call your representatives, you can stay relatively informed.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: Um, but where are you gonna make your impact? It’s not through what you are intaking through your mind, it’s through the actions of your body.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. And just thinking, like, actually pausing, having this pause you even told me about you, your remembering to practice the pause and reflecting, which I think is so, so helpful.

Um. It decreases your reactivity in many situations because you’re actually able to be where you are and make a choice. You talk about this all the time. Mm-hmm. Like making a conscious choice. So even to just make a conscious choice of like, I have learned this thing I’m going to do minus ai. That’s so cool I’m totally gonna do that now when I do a Google search. Um, but just, just realizing that you don’t have to give away your authority. Right. Yeah. Even going back to when we talked about Hildegard of Bingen and you asked if she was, what did you ask? If she was like, one of my, your guide? Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I was like, I don’t really know.

And then you even said then like, yeah, I see that you’re not giving away your authority. Like you still, you still are here. You’re coming from a place of your center. And the same thing was happening when I was choosing not to get pulled forward in the fear spiral about the studio, I would always come back and go to like, where is the home in place that I feel.

So that can be that thought, that pause and centering can be applied to so many situations. As small as when your dog eats another shoelace and as big as something that’s taking over the world like AI.

Becky: Exactly. Yeah. So um, as I’ve been developing, you know, what is it that I wanna share?

What is it that I wanna offer, um, in my business, in my offering? I kept coming back to framing around do you know who Viktor Frankl is? The man Search for Meeting? He was a, um, Holocaust survivor and a psychiatrist. He wrote this book, Man’s Search For Meaning and um, it’s attributed as a quote to him. He never quite said it, but it’s a really good framing of his philosophy, of his framework. And it’s, um, Between stimulus and response, there is a space in that space lies your power to choose, and in that choice lies your growth and your freedom.

Christina: Cool.

Becky: And I love this because it kind of. It gives me something to hang the teachings on. So it’s like stimulus. What’s stimulus? It’s anything that happens to you. It’s anything that you encountered in your day-to-day. And what’s your response? Right? Well, response is going to come from one of two places.

It’s going to come from your automatic programming, so a reaction or it’s going to come from a conscious choice made by your conscious mind, by your prefrontal cortex in that moment it, And between that stimulus and response, whether it’s reactivity or choice, there’s a space. But that space is often so small that we don’t even notice it because we’re running so fast because our culture cultures so fast.

So the practice of learning meditation, of learning how to slow down is the practice of strengthening our ability to notice that space. And then notice if reactivity comes up, if reactivity comes up, what do we do? We have to be with our nervous system and regulate our nervous system so that that reactivity in our nervous system isn’t making us react.

Instead, we can pause with that reactivity, with that activation in our nervous system, an access choice.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And in that choice is our growth. ‘cause every time you make a new choice, you’re moving beyond that programming and into something new, a new version of yourself. Because if we’re always on autopilot we’re just a replica of our past over mm-hmm. And over and over again. And we’re not growing. And that’s where I get to freedom. Freedom is such a huge, um, through line that I’ve come to in my offering because when you can choose in any moment how you show up, when I choose to put minus AI in my search term, I am free of what these tech oligarchs are trying to in impose upon me.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And then the more that you practice that, the more that becomes your habit.

Becky: Exactly. Yeah. And then that becomes my automatic. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, it’s always growing and churning in this, in infinite loop. So, you know, something else is gonna come up and I’m gonna need, need to know they’re gonna get smart and find another way to try to trap me in.

Um. I, I heard a, a creator on TikTok once say that we are all living in a collective imagination. Whose imagination have we been living in? And whose imagination do we want to choose to live in? And predominantly we’ve been living in the imagination of cis straight white men. And I’m not, this is not a bash of cis straight white men.

I am just saying that we’ve had this homogenized imagination of our dominant culture. And I don’t wanna live in that imagination anymore.

Christina: Yeah. We can try something else.

Becky: Lots of different things. Yeah. Diversity, you know.

Christina: Mm-hmm. We have a new garden to seed. Ooh. What does it look like? What could it look like?

What could it look like to inhabit that imagination? That’s a nice practice to think about. Like, yeah. Thinking about it as something that grows, like what does the garden that I want to live in, what is the garden that you want to live in look like?

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. And then being the seeds of that garden.

Christina: Yeah. Yep. Yep. In lots of different choices. Mm-hmm. In lots of different ways.

Yeah.

Becky: And then having so much grace for yourself when you’re not able to make those choices. Because it is a practice and it’s not a binary of you’re either tending to this future, future garden, or you’re living in the garden that needs to be composted.

It’s not a binary, we’re dancing between each.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

That’s a beautiful thought. Mm-hmm.

The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.

Becky: I know that antsy feeling so well, like that feeling of like you can. Again, using the language of the seeds, like I can see all these little seeds and I can see what they’re all gonna become and I just am so excited and like wanting it to go. But that’s what I was trying to express. Like I usually get stuck in that.

And then there’s the frustration that it’s not happening fast enough, you know? ‘Cause I’m just like bursting and so excited for all these different things and I can see how all the little seeds will connect and create this beautiful, harmonious garden that like all harmonizes together. Like I get really excited about the connections between these seeds when I can see it.

Yeah. That is like where I’ve lived most of my life is like in that excited feeling and like seeing all of it. And now I’m learning patience of like coming back, which is such a different vibration. It’s like holding these two vibrations. I know we’ve talked about this before. Um, and I think it was from the Telepathy Tapes where one of the, uh, non speakers was like, it was the one with the, um, the tuning forks.

And he said there’s, you know, there’s two vibrations. There’s like a vibration to his body and a vibration to his soul. And I feel that so clearly. That like this patience and this being the seed is such a slow vibration in me. But then this, there’s the vision, which is so like kinetic and, and, and like loud and fast and yeah, how to hold them both and how to have patience.

That’s what I’m learning.

If you want to go deeper into this week’s conversation, we recommend the following podcast episodes:

On Being: Gordon Hempton - Silence and the Presence of Everything

Time Sensitive: Sara Imari Walker on Making Sense of Life, the Universe, and Ourselves

If you don’t already know the origins of lawns in America, this article from the National Wildlife Foundation provides a pretty concise history.

And as always, if you want to learn more about our other offerings, check out Christina’s and Becky’s websites.

Thank you for listening!

Episode Transcript

Christina: It’s so true that it is a practice. Um, when I feel like I am in this liminal place, where we all go often, I do a conscious recalibration, and I learned this through the process of building the studio that cost way more than I thought it should and would and I had to keep reorienting myself towards beauty and joyfulness rather than fear.

Um, and so I do that. That’s what I do. I go and I make sure that I am spending a lot of extra time in a place of inspiration and beauty. And that is all standing on a really solid ground of trust. Um, yep. Like anytime I would get really scared about building the studio, I would just go out to where it was gonna be.

And I would imagine it there, and I would feel the way that felt to be in it and near it. And now I’m in it. And when I’m in it, I have to consciously accept that feeling and all of the newness that is now coming out of it, even though that newness is asking me to sweep the table.

Becky: Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time. This week we talked about the infinite loops of wisdom and knowledge. The binaries and dualities of good and bad. Silence and noise. Cycles of evolution and revolution, and expanding and contracting. I hope you enjoy.

So this is our first episode that we’re recording after we’re out in the world. How does that live in you?

Does it shape how you’re showing up today at all?

Christina: Oh, that’s a good, that’s a good way to think about it. You know, I consciously, try not to show up differently on purpose. Actually, what I did today that I think I’m gonna, um, start doing before every podcast recording we do is I do one of your meditation so I clear my energy.

I’m not even trying to pitch this as like everybody, here’s the secret on the street. Go do Becky’s classes, but really. You know, I, like 25 minutes ago, I sat down on my couch and I just listened to your voice, guide me through this thing, even though at this point now I can kind of just do it on my own,

but it’s nice to not, it’s nice to not have to do it on my own sometimes and I can just, yeah, I did it with Paulo on the couch. He sit curled up right next to me and I think I’m

Becky: Do you notice a difference with, in him when you’re meditating? Does he, his demeanor or energy level change at all?

Christina: Um, not really.

He was, I did notice. Um, he was sleeping in the kitchen and I went in and started meditating on the couch and 10 minutes into it, he came in and laid down next to me. So, uh, that could be, but it wasn’t like I started when he was a rip roaring puppy and then he all of a sudden was like, Zen Master Paulo.

Becky: Totally, totally. I’m curious like the, the older he gets and the more you do, ‘cause Jasper loves to meditate with us. If we say, “okay, we’re gonna meditate”. Like he, he has to curl up in our legs. Like, I have to have my legs in like lotus position and he has to, I don’t know if it’s Lotus, I think it’s butterfly.

My legs cannot do Lotus, but he wants to be in a nest. Yeah. And he loves it. It’s so, it’s interesting.

Christina: I think so too. I think once, once Paulo is not a puppy anymore, I bet he will. Um, and, and also once I have the routine of it, he’s not seeing me do the routine in the same place at the same time every time.

Yeah. Um, yeah, so I, so, so this is out in the world now. There’s been really positive feedback. Um, and it’s, I think it’s just landing the way that we want it to land in that we are just two normal people having authentic, layered, deep conversations that are real and human.

And we’re not trying to pretend like we are something that we aren’t, which I know is really important to both of us.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and well, I also just love it because I feel like if it, it, it could be an in for a deeper conversation with me if it’s someone who maybe didn’t think about that, you know.

Before.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. What about you?

Becky: I, so first of all, I agree with you, like, I also used my tools, I started using this word energetic hygiene because it reminds me that it’s, it’s a regular thing. It’s you, you take a shower, you do your you know, your physical hygiene, you do your energetic hygiene as well.

And it just sets the, the vibration of how I’m, I am showing up right now. So so yes, I did that as well. Um. Once it’s out in the world, what I noticed was, I feel like a greater sense of responsibility, but in a very light way.

You know, just like people are hearing it, and I, so it’s making it like inspiring me to show up as the most vulnerable and authentic version of myself that I can hold at this time. It’s not like I am in full presence, full vulnerability a hundred percent of the time.

You know, you may say something that kind of triggers me or, or silence could trigger me, and, you know. So, but I am, it’s, it’s inspiring me to go deeper into my own practice so that I can show up in the most vulnerable, authentic version of myself.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

I think even on a little podcast like this, where we’re just sort of having a conversation together, and that’s what we expect of it, is that you and I just have a conversation that lands with each of us and then we carry that in through our days.

Anything beyond that is bonus, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. And so, but even that, like, I wanna show up for you in a way where I’m fully present. Um, and it really is kind of funny. You just never know where it goes. Like just this morning. A friend of mine from Boston Days when I was in college, we’ve kept in touch and she now lives on the West coast and, um, she’s going through a hard time in her life because she, uh, was a part of the fires in California.

In Hollywood. Mm-hmm. She lived in Pasadena. Pasadena was where I think it was the worst. But her, her house was one of the ones that stayed and did not burn down, but is in a really awful shape. Um, since then. Anyway, we’ve kept in touch via noticing light a lot that I, she’s told me like that really helps expand life for her.

Um, and then today, just this morning, she said. I’m having a really rough time because obviously things are hard.

Christina: Uh, she’s very displaced and work is weird and all of that. And she said, but you remind me to sometimes have a dance party in my living room by myself because it’s just me, you know, tooling around in my studio and that’s a part of my practice is just singing or dancing or doing something.

And, um, and she said, thanks for reminding me of that. And I just in, in my studio dancing around and sometimes I think, why not share this?

Christina: Not for someone to say, wow, Christina, you’re such a good dancer. Teach me what you know, but more just like, why not?

Christina: My body functions, I have legs that can move and hold me, and I’m gonna go and move my body.

And like, yes. It’s nice. It’s just nice all to say that it’s really nice to just show up in who you are.

Christina: And you just don’t know where that ripples away, you know?

Becky: Absolutely. Yeah. And what’s so natural for you is to share the light and the joy and, you know

Christina: Yes, yes, that’s true.

Becky: So, I was just reflecting the other day. I was doing a rewatch of this show, Orphan Black. It’s a great show. It’s about clones, but acting is in incredible. It’s, it’s female forward.

The, the representation that they have on that show is really amazing. Um, so that’s my plug for Orphan Black. This is also my like, little opportunity to bring in a tiny bit of pop culture. So the last episode, so they’ve gone through all this crazy stuff and there’s all these clones, which they say they’re sisters and they’re sitting around the fireplace and one of the, or the fire pit outside.

And one of ‘em who was always the strongest and kind of the leader was saying “I carry so many mistakes.” Like she was holding all this shame for all the mistakes and not a single one of them tried to fix it, tried to make it better. They then showed their shame. They said, you know, she was having shame around being a bad mom, and one of her sisters was like, I just yelled at my kid and, you know.

Yeah. But it, what it was coming up for me is like you sharing your dancing and this joy and reminding people like, I have joy inside too, even when I’m going through hard times. And I think it’s really powerful when we show up and share our, our shame and share our, our pain, it just gives this permission for other people to feel, not feel alone.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, even in motherhood, for example, like I, this is not something that I share with people I don’t know on the internet. So I have like a close friends list, but I love sharing the real guts of parenting because I don’t see other people doing that. So like one of my twins just pooped in the bath.

here’s a quick picture of that, and then the other one is grossed out because she has to sit next to it. And then also in the same moment, someone’s shouting at me because they’re also like, on the toilet, also poop in there too. They’re just, it’s just so messy. Um, and 20 minutes later I can still have a solo dance party to shake it off.

Becky: Yeah. You know? Absolutely. Yeah.

Christina: Um, yeah, so again, I, I think it’s, I think I do have this, this like natural tendency to share like more of the buoyant qualities of life, but there’s something, um. To appreciate about the, the rawness and the richness of the stuff that is harder to share. Yeah. And to hold it all in the same hand.

Becky: To hold it all in the same hand. Yep. And I think it’s really beautiful that, you know, you naturally orient towards light and, and that’s, you know, recognizes that’s what you’re meant to share. And I am discovering, you know, that I naturally kind of lean into the, the, the suffering and the darkness. And that’s what I am meant to help other people hold, you know, and we need it all.

So it comes back to this theme we’ve talked about so many times, is everyone just tapping into what feels most authentic to them. And that’s what the world needs.

Christina: That is what the world needs.

Becky: Yeah. I, I’m noticing what’s alive for me, especially the last couple days, maybe weeks. So I’m really sitting in

this desire to embody stepping outside of the binary of good and bad.

Yes.

And I’ve known that, like I am, I identify as non-binary, like it’s very much has lived in my consciousness, in my head for so long, but it, I’m really sitting with what does it feel like to embody that in my day to day? That’s very present for me.

And it’s very interesting to, to recognize like, oh, this is very present for me. And then I notice that’s kind of the lens I’m looking at everything right now. Do you experience that where if, if like a new message or a new awareness is coming through, that’s kind of the lens on which you see everything?

Christina: Definitely. Definitely. Even in embracing my natural tendency to orient towards light, which to be honest, was like the scariest thing I could realize about myself. Weird. Weirdly had to. Why do you think it was so hard? I don’t know. Part of me now wonders if like to, to talk to people who are younger and are discovering who they are.

I wonder if the thing that you feel most insecure about is actually what you are, really what you are in your core. Hmm. Because maybe you resist the thing that is so quietly present in you.

Hmm.

I wonder that

Becky: maybe ‘cause it

feels so tender. Like it feels so, so real, so real and raw and it’s like, I would imagine you’d

maybe do some protecting around. Yeah. Because it’s like if you get rejected for this thing that feels so essential to you, it might feel crushing.

Christina: Yeah, sure. Exactly. Like if I finally acknowledge the thing that is really me as being really me and I openly lead my life from that central place, I am unguarded, right?

Mm-hmm. So for me, I don’t actually really have a lot of guardrails up in myself. Um, so once I realize like, well that’s silly, Christina, why are you shying away from that? That’s really kind of all it took was, oh, that’s silly. Okay. So now I step forward in this vibrant, bright self. For me, I also had to make sure that it wouldn’t harm others

but, uh, I kind of think sometimes when you are leading from a very center place, harming others is also not your responsibility because that’s coming from inside of them somehow.

Becky: Yeah. Well I think you, I think you can be, I think there’s a way to be empathetic to others without taking on the responsibility of their feelings.

Christina: Yes. Yeah. And so I think that’s, that’s where I, that’s where I was for sure. Yeah. Um, but yeah, for me, for you saying that you, by realizing something about yourself, then that’s sort of the lens. Or maybe not even realize, realizing something about yourself, but having a realization that’s the lens that then you see the world through.

Becky: Yeah, and it, it constantly fluctuates. So what’s what the other thing that I’m really sitting with lately is the thing that I text you around this interplay between wisdom and knowledge and the cyclical interplay.

Christina: Wait, can you say what you texted me because it blew my mind. Do you remember that was Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because a, that was a realization.

Becky: Yeah. This was a text and it, it, okay. So it came through me and then I’ve been sitting with it. Um, so I think what I text you was, uh, knowledge comes through the moves through the mind, and wisdom goes through the body, and they’re interconnected and cyclical, and both are necessary.

So I’ve been sitting with it more and the image that, that I can’t get away, uh, get away from. And the image that’s so clear to me is the Infinity Sig symbol. Um, so and so I’m in the knowledge part, right? I’ve, I’ve gotten this message. And so imagine you, you get a message or you go out and learn something, so you expand out into this loop of knowledge, so you’re gaining knowledge and then you come back.

So imagine I’ll put an image in the show notes or something, or if you’re on YouTube, you can trace my finger as I, yeah. So you go out through the mind to expand your awareness and your knowledge, and then you come back to, so imagine the point of a infinity to emptiness. Like it’s tying back to what we were talking about before around emptiness.

So you go and gain this knowledge, and then you empty, and then you come into the body into. Embodying that, learning how to integrate this new knowledge into your being and to how you move through the world into your, your thoughts, your beliefs, and your actions. And then you come back to emptiness again, and you empty and you go out back into the world and you gain more knowledge and it’s cyclical.

And I imagine it that every time you’re going out into knowledge, you’re expanding beyond yourself. So you start with—well, you start wherever you are—but I just imagine what life is asking of us is this ever-expanding growth of wisdom and knowledge. And so you’re going out wider and wider, and then with wisdom, you’re going in deeper and deeper into yourself.

And so. You need both because if you stay with wisdom, you run the risk of staying too much informed of your own experience and not bringing in the knowledge of what’s the experience of people who aren’t like me. Hmm. You know? And you run the risk of thinking, I have this wisdom and thinking it’s universal wisdom and missing out on the knowledge of ex, of the experiences of other people and other beings, right?

Mm-hmm. So whether you’re expanding into nature or you’re interested in people, but so I just imagine this like ever expanding infinity symbols expanding out towards, we’ll call it source. Yeah. Source, which is where there is no separation, which I think is something. We deeply know that of that is true, but we have to gain more knowledge.

We have to integrate it into our being. So we’re living that experience of source. So it’s like you’re constantly expanding. So

Christina: you hadn’t mentioned the emptiness point when you just said that. Like, my eyes welled up with tears and funnily enough, my mouth watered, which was weird, but we’ll take whatever that means. Um, I’m hungry for that, for that empty buffer.

Becky: That was new. That was from sitting with it and, and doing the editing of the podcast and, you know, taking in new knowledge.

Like even coming back to listening to our old conversations with new, with emptiness, with a beginner’s mind.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think when you had told me about that transmission that came through you, that time, that wisdom, that knowledge is in the mind and wisdom is in the body. And you were saying, again, Christina, you and I are mirrors because you, Becky, have.

Knowledge, you’re in a much more of a place of knowledge. And I was coming from a place of more embodied wisdom that didn’t have the knowledge part, and I’m now learning the knowledge part from you. And, and it’s like a, it’s like a back and forth. Um, yeah, it’s,

Becky: And you teach me how to embody the things that I’ve known and, and through wisdom and the more I’ve been sitting with it.

Um, and again, ‘cause of the other major thing that I’m sitting with right now is stepping out of that binary. I think there’s pro probably lots of different cycles. Like, I don’t think it’s, you know, you have plenty of places in your life, I’m sure, where you have knowledge that you’re Oh yeah. Moving into wisdom, you know, so it’s, I imagine like maybe there’s an overarching cycle for our life and then there’s all these little fractals of cycles that we’re moving through.

Um. Yeah.

Christina: But I think, uh, to go back to the point of being real and authentic and in the home of yourself, wherever you are at any given point, um, you can meet that wisdom truthfully. And even just you saying, you acknowledging that I am coming from a place of wisdom and showing you how to use your knowledge to embody it, that’s not a good or bad thing.

Mm-hmm. To take the good or bad away from it has been incredibly, um, helpful for me because I might’ve thought having light is good mm-hmm. And not is bad. Or being, um, so open is selfish and being closed is not, you know, it’s so. It’s such a relief to take away the good and bad of things. Yeah. ‘cause then you’re put in a place of noticing.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Becky: And allowing. So, we all have preferences, and so what really kind of illuminated this for me is the episode, the on being episode that you just sent me, that we both just re-listened to around silence, which was amazing.

And it had so many takeaways and so much wisdom and knowledge. Um. And because I’ve been sitting with these lenses, some things jumped out at me when I was listening to him. So he was describing, uh, so his name is Gordon Hemp. I also wrote down notes this time because I’m like, that’s good. I was tired of forgetting people’s names and whatever.

Anyway, so he was talking about how he’s traveled the globe and he’s recorded all these sounds everywhere and he clearly loves sound and he loves nature. But what really struck me is he was talking about near the equator and he played the sound and he’s like, the sun is so intense there, and the sound is so intense.

And he said, um. He said, it’s too much action for his ears. It’s too intense for his ears. And then he said, you know, then he moved up to Central America and described that, and then he went, moved up to the, the more temperate area areas, which he really loves. And he called it there you find poetry of space.

Mm-hmm. And that’s beautiful. He’s, you know, he loved, he find, found something he loves and he clearly, and he’s so passionate about protecting those spaces that he loves, which is beautiful. But since I had this lens of wanting to step out of this paradigm of good and bad, it really struck me of, well, what if you live near the equator?

Like if, you know the, if you grew up near the equator or your ancestors grew up near the, the equator. They were shaped and formed by that vibration, by those sounds. And so it makes perfect sense that, you know, he’s a white man and his ancestors did not grow up around those sounds. So it would make sense that the sound that formed his lineage, lineage would feel good for him.

Amazing. But what I noticed because I was really attuned to this, is when you say, this is good, this is poetry and this is too much or too intense, and you start to generalize that or universalize that, that’s where we get into these cultures of hierarchy of one culture being good and one being too much.

I, you know, this is not about Gordon this, first of all, this talk was happened in 2012, and I’m not in dialogue with him. So I’m not trying to place a meaning on him or his thoughts and behavior. This is just what I’m noticing as I start to really embody stepping out of that binary of good and bad. You know?

Or even like, it was funny ‘cause he talks about, you know, there’s so much noise in the modern world, right? But he loves trains, he loves the sound of trains. And Krista Tippet kind of pushed him on this a little bit too, and he, he said something like, he doesn’t have to argue his contradictions, which, yeah, you don’t, we’re full of contradictions.

What I notice though, is. He began to justify his preference of why a train is somehow different than a, a car or whatever. It’s like, no, that’s just your preference, you know? Yeah. But, but I think because we are so wired for belonging, um, that when we live in this binary of good and bad, I think it does drive us to justify our preferences because we want people to agree with us so that they think we are good.

And this preference is good because once you introduce the binary of good and bad, that means whatever I think is good, the opposite is bad.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And I just think, I just, you can see it in history how all those, uh. Preferences have turned into these cultural hierarchies, which have led to justification for horrible, horrible oppression.

Christina: yes. How do we get out of good and bad?

Hmm.

Like, because I hear what you’re saying. I didn’t pick up on those things when I was listening to it. ‘cause even part of me while you were just talking was thinking like, he’s not even saying that as an an oppressor. He’s just saying that as a person who’s noticing that, like it feels very disarming for him to say, that’s too loud for my ears.

So I don’t, but, but I understand where your thought process is going. And then I want, I think. Like, how do we, how do we steer away from that? More conversations like this, you know?

Becky: Well, and first of all, I will say, this is my lens, right? Yes. I am not saying this is a universal lens. I am just noticing for me, um, it’s becoming important to step out of this, this binary.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: And so I would say identify that we all have pre I think it, it’s a practice of allowing and accepting, you know? And so I, I just think we get into trouble when we try to make our preferences the universal good. Sure. You know, whatever I like is universally the good thing in the world, you know?

Right. And I’m, and again, I meant like this man, I don’t think he was. I think it’s so subtle. Mm-hmm. But I think language is really important. And, and I think we’re, I think especially as a white person in, since I am in the dominant culture mm-hmm. I personally feel a responsibility to push myself and, and, and notice where these cultural hierarchies show up in my thoughts.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: Beliefs and language. Uh, but it’s a practice. Yeah. It’s a practice of noticing.

Christina: It is a practice. Maybe that’s, maybe that’s the answer is just more of us practicing this, which I think is already happening. Yes. Um, absolutely. Even, even in this is making me think of a couple of things. So. Today, this is a, this is a real, maybe seeming tangent, but, but not today is picture day at elementary school.

In my town, my children were not made to dress in a certain way. Wait, what do you mean by that? Picture day is a big deal for a lot of families where like you, yeah, so like you must wear your most, your best, I will say outfit. Make sure that your hair is nice. Like, oh, picture day is tomorrow. Picture day, picture day, picture day.

Because for one day every year everyone comes looking as dishonest as possible to, to frame what that year represents in a photograph. So, you know, people’s hair, they have bow ties, it still exists.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and. I think it’s kind of, kind of nuts because why? So I don’t, in our family we choose not to make it a big deal.

So I also don’t want my kids to show up and not realize it’s picture day. So I’ll say it’s picture day, you know, it’s coming. Jack this morning decided he might wear jeans and then decided not to, but then we get out to the bus stop and there are all of these kids whose parents said they had a really tough morning ‘cause they spent the whole time practicing smiling.

Mm-hmm.

And um, and that’s what they did. And they had specific curls in their hair. And, and you know,

I, um, maybe it’s a little act of stepping away from the binary of good and bad by letting, letting my children not have to make this such a big deal because then like there’s so much pressure on what they look like in this, or even talking about language again, I’m very conscious to talk about the way that I look at myself in front of my children.

I’m very conscious of the way that, like, if, if one of the girls comes down and is wearing this very, um, elaborate and princess like outfit, ensemble, um, instead of to say, oh, you are so beautiful, which equals good.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And the opposing force is ugly. Right? Exactly. Yeah. I say, you must feel fancy or something.

Oh, I love that. Yeah. Or, or even like, you know, their grandmother got, um one of the girls, they went to a little store and she got them something and she decided to get makeup. Mm-hmm. Which I have not bought for them and, um, and so I said, oh, that’s so fancy. You must feel so fancy. Look at that fancy color.

Because fancy to me isn’t necessarily good or bad, it’s just fancy.

Becky: Yeah. Um, I love that. Yeah. I mean, tho tho those two, those examples that you’re giving to me are clear examples of stepping out of this binary of good and bad. You know, who decided that wearing a bow tie was good, you know? Yeah. And, and attractive.

And, and like. If someone genuinely loves wearing a bow tie, wonderful. That’s a preference. But the mm-hmm. You’re pointing to exactly that. Where is all this pressure that the parents are feeling to make their child look a certain way? Yeah. When you step out of the binary of good and bad, you can, you can question those things exactly what you’re doing and say, well, this isn’t important to me.

Mm-hmm. And so it’s, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. No, I was gonna say, it’s, it’s also a strange thing because then you’re still in a society where many, most people aren’t, uh, making picture day a tiny deal like we are. So, you know, my kids walked out and it was like, oh, picture day. What are you guys wearing? What are you doing?

And, you know, there were like four other kids out there and, and then Lucy one of the twins kind of looked at me and said, uh, actually mom, I think, I think I do I think, can you make me a ponytail with a braid in it? And I was just crushed. I was like, who cares what your hair looks like? But yes, I will give you a ponytail with a braid in it.

So I ran in and Jack wanted me to button his top button for him because people were putting emphasis. It’s like this funny balance of like, listen man, I’m your parent, which doesn’t mean that I’m the end all be all, but just so you know, it doesn’t matter to us. Mm-hmm. Nothing about your existence changes based on the way that you look to us right now.

And at the same time it does to you because everyone around you is saying that that’s something that they’re looking at, but you just kind of do the best you can and then trust that they’ll come home to themselves.

Becky: Yeah. Because they’re not in a vacuum. You know? You, and that’s why it’s not, it’s not a binary thing of your, you know, out of the binary of good and bad, or you’re in it, you know, it’s, it is a practice and yeah.

Um, and it, I, I would say this is a very, like, there is a strong default good culture in, in any culture, right? Mm-hmm. In not just in, not just here. Um, so I think it’s revolutionary and evolutionary to start questioning that, of like, where do these things come from? And that’s where was, see back to the, the infinity loop of, of knowledge.

So I’m looking out at my lawn, right? Mm-hmm. The lawn. That Cause you know how much carbon we put in the air and how much greenhouse gas emissions come from lawns, maintaining lawns. Do you know the origin of lawns?

Christina: I do.

Becky: Yeah. So that’s knowledge, right? But I still mow my lawn. So that’s moving into, it’s a process.

Mm-hmm. I do less and less of my lawn every, every year we make the meadow bigger. Mm-hmm. Um, so it’s not a binary, it’s a practice and like there’s, there’s plenty of things that you may have knowledge of, but to actually integrate it into your thoughts, beliefs, and actions takes time because you are butted up against the, I’m coming back to noise.

Like in that episode, he talks about silence isn’t the absence of sound, it’s the absence of noise. You know, so when you go out into the world, it’s very noisy with opinions. And, um, tying it back to the energetic hygiene, there’s a lot of frequencies that you’re hit with every day. So you can do your energetic hygiene to prepare yourself the best you can and put up some boundaries so they don’t just rush in without your permission, but it’s a process because it’s, you’re very much swimming against the current.

When you start asking questions like, is there a universal good and bad? Or has that been helpful? Like, the question I’m starting to ask myself is not, is this good or is this bad, or is this right or is it wrong? I’m starting to ask myself, does this expand my capacity for love, either for myself or the world?

Does it reduce suffering either in me or in the world that I’m interconnected to? Like that to me is a better question than, is this good or bad? And I’m fine with love being universal, you know?

Christina: Mm-hmm. But true or false, first, did you have to find a home in yourself so that you can meet your world from an authentic place?

Like was that the work that you had to do first and then you’re able to have those two questions be the barometer for your experiences day to day?

Becky: Absolutely because I was so insecure, right? I felt so insecure, and when, when I felt insecure, the noise of the world was so much louder. Yeah. And I was constantly trying to figure out how to be good, because when you

when you feel like you don’t belong or when you feel, when you don’t feel secure in yourself, as I didn’t, then you’re not listening internally. You’re just looking externally to try to figure out what is good, what is right, and then I’ll just take that on. I’ll just, I’ll become that. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I had to get to a place where I could be in the noise and be the wave of Becky.

The wave of Becky. Yeah. Yes.

Christina: Yes. I think that’s, I think that is what, um, uh, maybe what our generation is realizing is a worthwhile path. You know, my parents as loving and supportive as they are still sometimes will say your generation kind of overanalyzes things a little bit. Not even necessarily. I mean, I guess there’s like a twinge of like, that’s bad, but I don’t really feel that strongly from them.

But that’s just an observation. They think, you know, you guys overanalyze things too much. But I don’t know if I agree with that because I think a lot can be learned if you can look inward, analyze things a little bit, track things and patterns and histories so that you can come out, um, into the noise as a wave of you.

Yeah, because everybody has a different, a different upbringing. I’m even thinking about, um, that other podcast that I sent you from time Sensitive with that, um, physicist and she, we, we should link both of those in the show notes ‘cause they’re both so good. So good. Yeah. Um, and she. Is, I mean, you can maybe talk more about that or we don’t even have to.

But basically she’s someone who, who could change the way that we understand physics by what she is thinking about time. And her whole theory is called the Assembly Theory. And, um, I forget what her name is. Something, uh,

yeah. Um, we’ll link it. But she was talking about, yeah. Okay. So she was even talking about, the biggest takeaway I had without having to explain the whole podcast is that she’s someone who could completely shift the way that we think about physics.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: It’s a really big deal.

Becky: Huge. Yeah.

Christina: Huge. Um. And she as someone who had a, had a hairdresser father went to a state school and had a mom who loved antiques and they lived in an old house. So like she is a perfect shining example of somebody who took her circumstances and followed her distinct path, which ended up leading her to these amazing opportunities.

But she just was who she was. Mm-hmm. Just like she was the wave of, of Sarah Imari Walker. Mm-hmm. And, um, I, I just, I just keep coming back to that. That’s something that’s really alive in me the last two or three years is just, I don’t, I’m not supposed to be anybody other than myself. No, neither are you.

No. And if you and I can come at this world as who we are, and I, I know that I’ve said this on this podcast before and I will say it again and again because it’s just something that’s so. It’s so true. Um, and I don’t think it can be said too many times because maybe it will come at people in a different way, you know, or hit.

It’s like, that’s our job. That’s our job. And a lot of times in family structures or cultural structures, that’s not allowed.

Becky: Yeah. Well, the other thing that’s really, that I’m sitting with lately as I’m embody, embodying, um, this practice of stepping out of good and bad is it’s really hitting me how we are all mirrors of one another.

So, and the, the reason I, I point to this is the reason I knew that stepping out of the binary of good and bad was really important for me right now is I kept noticing when someone else would be judging someone else as wrong or bad, or just that judgment. I felt icky, I felt discomfort in my body. And the old version of me would’ve then judged that person for judging.

You know, but I’ve now had enough practice and enough, you know, tools to sit with that. And I’m like, oh, they are touching something within me and they’re illuminating, they’re reflecting back to me something that I am ready to shift and change. And so that’s become an a barometer is if I’m upset with something, if something feels icky or uncomfortable out there, that is a sign for me to look inward.

And the reason I say that in relation to what you’re saying about families not allowing, it’s like anytime you change that shows everyone around you that change is possible.

Yeah.

And that’s really uncomfortable for people for a couple reasons. One, the brain, the, the tribal brain likes familiarity.

So they want Christina and Becky to be the same version that they know the brain does. You know, not on a conscious level and you’re serving up a mirror that says you can change, you can be a, your authentic self as well. Yeah. And for a lot of people getting to that that authentic self.

Well this is my experience and from people I talk to and from what’s in the media, I think this is a very common, I think you are the rare bird. I think a lot of people really. To get to that authentic place. There’s a lot of stripping away and there’s a lot of looking at like if you’re not your authentic self, something made you put on a mask or something made you betray yourself.

And whether it’s one big thing or a couple big things, or whether it’s a thousand tiny paper cuts of like picture day and your mom making you put on a bow tie when maybe you wanted to wear a dress or ma made you wear a dress when you wanted to wear a bow tie, well-meaning parent, you know, the, everyone’s doing the best they can, but like that’s the kind of a thousand little cuts that I think make us abandon or lose touch with that authentic self.

And oh, the other thing that was coming up when you mentioned your mom is, um. So we are kind of in that generation where we knew the analog world, but we were introduced to the technology and the internet fairly early. But you think of generations below us. Mm-hmm. They grew up with the knowledge of the entire world at their fingertips.

So yeah, of course they’re an like analyzing, noticing, looking into these cultural patterns because they have access to it. Mm-hmm. So for our parents, that was just like, that wasn’t spoken of. That wasn’t, they grew up with textbooks that were altered and there was propaganda, and to actually seek out more accurate representations of culture was harder.

But this generation, they have all that knowledge at their fingertips. So of course they’re going to question it and. And I love it also.

Christina: No, me too. Me too. And I, I think about it sometimes from like a pulled back lens of, um, of evolving humanity. You know, we, yes, I suppose we analyze more than other generations do, but could that potentially be an evolution of our species, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. Why not? We’re, we’re becoming, you know, we, there’s that whole saying that we see in a day what our grandparents generation saw in a year. Yeah. So how can our brains not change?

Yeah. So like they’re teaching social emotional learning in elementary school now where that was never a thing that could probably seem very silly to people in older generations but how else are we supposed to move forward or cope with the information that we are seeing? Then just be able to control and regulate our own nervous systems while we also learn how to become friends to others. I mean this, I went and volunteered to teach, um, to help out with the high school art class two years ago and I was completely blown away with how, um. Grounded and, like fully themselves these kids were, I mean like 16 year olds and 17 year olds in this art class granted, art is kind of like a safe place, but I was this stranger that just kind of came in and they were like talking openly about their neurodivergence and not apologizing for anything.

Not a good or bad thing. They were just like, oh yeah, I have so and so, or like, this is what I experienced, this is how I learned best. Mm-hmm. And it was just like, I was like, our future is, is fine. These people are, these people are so solid already. You know,

Becky: As, as long as we don’t blow up the world before these people can, I hope Yeah.

Be in charge. I agree with you that the, the future is, is bright. Yep. Yeah. I was actually curious if the, if Sarah, if the, the person in that, that podcast was neurodivergent, the way she was putting together, um, all these, all these patterns and pulling from all these different areas and like, so this is another place of, of noticing and, and again, maybe it’s my lens ‘cause I do identify as neurodivergent, like, but like the language, there’s a neurotypical brain and a neurodivergent brain, right?

Mm-hmm. So those, it’s little things like that where, where I think the more we question what makes this typical, you know, what, why are we saying this is typical? First of all I don’t know that neurodivergence is a new thing. Maybe we’re just talking about it more openly and studying it more. Mm-hmm. It’s like the, the same thing with the prevalence of autism and they like it.

It’s not that it’s a lot more prevalent, it’s, we’re actually studying it more and, oh yeah, maybe we should actually include women and girls in our data set instead of just studying white boys. You know? So it’s like, um,

Christina: but I think the word typical is, it even holds the aspiration of not being good. Like, I don’t know that typical, I think, I think typical was a conscious choice.

At least that’s my observation is like,

Becky: I think a lot of people wanna be typical. I think a lot of people might want to be normal.

Christina: Yes. Yes, I agree with you. But, but, but Ty, wasn’t it something else? Like, wasn’t there another word? Um. Why do I think that that typical is like the better of the options that were on the table?

Oh, maybe I’m have to pick on that.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Maybe

Becky: not. But even still, and I’m not saying it’s like nefarious or ba or like someone’s trying to, you’re, you’re probably right, it probably is a, a, an advancement or a sense, but I, I just like, we, there is a default culture in this country and whenever you have a default culture then everyone else who’s different than that.

Mm-hmm. Which I bet is a lot more people than the minority. There’s just a lot more people who are putting on masks and trying to just fit in because again, we want, we are literally wired for belonging.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: So when you have a default culture. Then you create these hierarchies and it’s like, where are you in that hierarchy of the ideal?

Mm-hmm. You know?

Christina: Yeah. Yes, yes. I see what you mean. And I still come back to these kids who are growing up with TikTok, and they found a community of people that were also like them. So they’re able to be neurodivergent, not typical, not normal, and um, still feel like they belong because there are other people openly sharing their experience, again, from an authentic place.

Yep. Where you can sense that. And, um, and it’s powerful.

Becky: It’s very powerful. I mean, there’s, there’s a reason why, uh, there’s a reason why they wanna shut it down. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And take control of it. Yeah. It’s so powerful because once you start questioning things like, I mean, my lens, I also think of, you know, the, um, the non-binary and the trans community and like what they mirror back to us.

Once you start questioning those, those binaries, it expands out and you start questioning how we do everything. And that’s, that’s exciting to me because then we’re, we can, it’s just so limiting when you say this is good and this is right and everything else is bad and wrong. It’s like you don’t have emptiness and then you won’t have things like assembly theory because she’s pulling together new ways of actually asking these questions.

Christina: She’s also, she openly said that her, this was like my favorite line that she said when she was talking with Spencer Bailey about her method. She didn’t say my method. She said, my creative practice starts with intuition. Yes. Which was just like, wow, what a permission slip to just be her to say that. Which honestly inspires me to continue this podcast because if some one human being can listen to like whatever permission slip I might offer to them, that is work well done.

You know?

Becky: Absolutely. It’s belonging. You’re expanding safe circles of belonging. Mm-hmm. Like, yeah. Which is so important.

Christina: But yeah, if we can to, to take. Binary is a way or to, to approach life in a non-binary way means that then we can have physicists who find questions to answer by listening to their intuition.

Mm-hmm. Yes. Please sign me, please.

Becky: Yes. Up please. Yes, please. I mean, look at nature. There’s no good way to be in nature. There’s so much diversity, like you just lose out on the opportunity for so much beauty and diversity and not everything that emerges is going to, um, sound good or feel good to everyone, but there are 8 billion people on this planet.

There’s going to be belonging. You’re going to find circles of belonging the more we’re brave enough to just show up as our authentic self, instead of trying to conform to this tiny, narrow. Racist, homophobic, like, misogynistic view of what is good. It frees us all. Yeah,

Christina: it really does. And it is, it is scary to people who want power to think about people believing themselves and, and entering their lives from a place of self-trust and not from a place of fear.

Becky: Yep. Yeah. So you wanna, if, if people are listening and looking for a way to fight back or take a stand against those in power who are trying to do awful things in this country right now, be your authentic self. Be yourself. Yes. Be yourself. And that is a radical act.

Christina: Yes. And also tend to yourself, this is something like, this is something that I, um.

Talk to a lot of people about and am, am learning from practice, like you must tend to yourself. You must, you must prioritize your own self-regulation because you will then be able to enter the world from a more present place and a more restored place.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: That’s another thing I notice is that people are spinning and spinning and spinning and that’s the whole, that’s like, it feels like that’s what they’re trying to do mm-hmm.

Is make people spin and spin and spin and it’s not a great way to, um, help anything. You have to go be quiet for a little while. Yeah. Regularly. That’s your energetic hygiene, right?

Becky: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean there, I’ve, I’ve sure I’ve said this to you before, but the strategy of this administration and others in power is flood the system.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And they mean it in, you know, flood the courts, flood, the, the, the, the news outlets. Don’t let them flood your own system. Right. It’s the only system that you can tend to directly. Mm-hmm. And that doesn’t mean putting, putting your head in the sand. It means noticing what’s going on in your own nervous system and knowing that you are going to make better decisions.

You’re going to have a bigger impact if you are regulated, if you tend to yourself, because then you’re, you’re entering, coming back to your question of, you know, did I have to do that tending of mm-hmm. You know, being secure in myself before I could go out into the noise. If you wanna go into the noise and of this world and have an impact.

You have to have a strong center, and you can only do that by tending to yourself.

Christina: Mm-hmm. And that’s what makes me feel hopeful in the face of all of this shit, is that there are so many of us who are meeting ourselves in therapy or to having vulnerable conversations with people so that we actually can, we actually know where our center is.

Mm-hmm. So you’ve got more and more people who have that conscious center. And that is, is incredibly hopeful because if more people have a conscious center, then they can walk forward from that place. And it’s much more stable of a place to be, you know?

Becky: Yeah. And people forget that your, your biggest impact will be on your small sphere of influence that is around you, which is mm-hmm.

It’s not how much, you know, like. Participating in democracy and calling your representative these are all important things to do, but spinning out on the latest thing, just always check back in and like, what can I do about this right now? So I was thinking, if you know about this, no judge, you know, no judgment of good and bad.

My practice to take it as extreme as possible is how can I put anyone in this administration or anyone in power out? How can I look at them outside of the, the paradigm of good and bad? What am I notice? It’s the same practice that I talked about before of like what’s upsetting me about this person?

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And then not judging it good or bad, but just then asking myself, okay, clearly these people hate democracy and that that’s lighting something up in me. So I asked the question, well, what can I do to love democracy? Beautiful. That’s within my sphere of influence and that’s gonna make a lot bigger impact than me spinning out in fear.

Mm-hmm. And worrying about the shit ton of everything they’re doing.

Christina: There’s a lot to worry about right now.

Becky: Yeah. And that’s hard. Mm-hmm. And it’s very hard, which is why we have to tend to our nervous system and remember that like the people who are making the good never makes the news.

You know, you don’t see on the news all the people who are doing amazing work in this world.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

I like that practice. That’s a beautiful practice for everyone. And I think because I know and love you, I can see that it’s taken you lots of practice to get there and to remember to check in with yourself.

Um, but you’re, I just keep this whole, this whole conversation, I just keep picturing this very steady, it’s a steadiness. It’s like, how can you steady yourself and I think of a triangle, which is the strongest shape.

And if you can steady yourself and like, widen that base, what does that look like?

You know?

Mm-hmm.

What does it look like for each person to widen that base of where they stand? And I always, I talk about a pyramid, so like a triangle just in three dimensions. And I, I, I am the bottom of it. And I, I always. You know, like I think a lot of people might think like, my marriage is the bottom.

I am the bottom. Mm-hmm. If I am unstable, then everything else above me that I’m supporting will not thrive. Yeah. Um, so loving myself, which is not hard for me, thankfully, is, is the bottom, like Yeah. Being with myself, loving myself, feeling centered, then creates this stable ground and then, and then things can, can hang out on top.

But, but it takes like, turning inward, that mental, energetic hygiene, it takes all those things that take time out of your week and it takes a conscious prioritization of, of that, you know. Yeah. And that’s, that can feel really daunting, I think to people. It’s actually just easier to keep frenetically fizzing around than to just stop and consciously think like, shoot, this actually feels a little bad.

I, I need to, I need to, to figure out a way to get a little bit more stable.

Becky: Yeah. Well, this is where I think stepping out of the binaries can actually help people, because it’s not this binary of you are either tending to yourself or not. I think pe, you know, right. We underestimate how impactful and powerful tiny little steps can be, and it’s a practice like people who, whoever’s listening is listening to me after years of practice, but I saw benefit all along the way.

The benefit just grows and grows and grows. People underestimate the the impact that a, like a single conscious breath can make on a decision you’re about to make or a conversation you’re about to enter into. So start tiny. And I get it. It feels like additive people are already feeling like their life is so packed and so busy and so it can feel additive.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And so, I mean, and I try to really meet, meet people where there are and give them tiny little things that they can add up. But you have to like notice and believe that those things are gonna add up and have so much grace for yourself. Yeah. Because I think when you start a path of trying to notice more in your life, you have this vision in mind of who you’re gonna be or what it’s gonna do for you and

you can get clouded by that. And it’s, this image came up for me recently. I’m cognizant of the time, so maybe I’ll, I’ll leave with this. And yeah. Um, this message came to me of like, I get these seeds of an idea or a seed of something that wants to grow in me or move into embodiment. And in that seed I can see the whole tree or the whole, what it’s gonna grow into.

And I get so excited about what it’s, what it could grow into that I forget to come back to the seed and keep tending to the seed because imagining what it’s gonna be keeps me in the mind. But the seed is what’s right here, right now, in the present moment. This is where nature is amazing and an amazing teacher, you don’t see the results of tending to that seed for a while.

So you just have to have faith that, you know, I’m here with this seed and I can hold both. I can hold the vision of what the seed could be and come back to, it’ll only be that if I tend to this seed right here, right now.

Christina: Yes. And I would add to that to put yourself in the perspective of the seed. Ooh. Who already knows that it will become the tree, and at that time it is simply the seed.

Becky: Ooh. Put yourself in the perspective of the seed. Yes. That’s so good. So good.

Christina: Be the seed.

Becky: Be the seed. Yes.

That is so good. I love you friend. I love you too.

Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025 where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.

Becky: Holy shit Christina, you have just given me my next obsession! Um, Assembly Theory. What is this magic? Who is this magical woman? And I will be going down the deepest dive and probably stay in that deep dive for a long time. This is incredible. She’s putting language to so many things that have been rattling around my consciousness for so long.

Like she put words to things that I have said. In a more eloquent and scientifically grounded way, but directionally the same. And even the way at the very end when she explicitly says that her process is an intuitive process. Like that is

revolutionary for, I think, for a person in science in, you know, in the scientific method to, to talk about how intuition and embodiment is part of her process. Like what? I’m in Awe. I’m excited. Thank you for this gift.

Much of this conversation was inspired by a podcast that was shared with us by our amazing and oh so talented friend Ashley O’Brion who designed our logos. The podcast is called The Way Out Is In and the episode that inspired this conversation was The Art of Transmission

Watch the Jim Carrey commencement address that Christina referenced here.

To learn more about the work of Christina and Becky, check out our websites:

https://www.christinawatka.com/

https://www.beckydecicco.com/

Episode Transcript

Christina: I’m driving right now and I’m listening to that podcast you sent and I love it and I love something he just said. He said, “whatever arises in the moment, I offer it.” And that is how he believes he is sharing transmission. Um, it’s really beautiful. This is really beautiful and really rich territory and I would actually

I genuinely love to discuss this with you because I think more and more, um, I am here. I am in this place as an artist, as a, as a creative person. I think you are too.

Becky: Welcome to the fourth episode of Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time. This week we talk about emptiness. What does it mean to be a transmitter of whatever wants to come through us? We talked about getting in the sauna or the sauna if you’re Finnish, and maybe most importantly normalizing miracles. I hope you enjoy.

Christina: Here we are.

Becky: Here we are. Mm-hmm. How are you? How are you arriving today?

Christina: I am arriving today fresh outta the ocean, so I’m very um, yeah, I went in actually kind of incredibly, I went in, now that everybody’s in school, I’m prioritizing that time.

So everybody gets on the bus. And I have about an hour more in the morning than I did before. And that hour I spend driving to the ocean, putting my body in it, . So that’s how I’m arriving today, uh, in a very, I’m full.

Becky: Hmm.

How are you?

Uh, I’m arriving a little tender. The word tender keeps coming up. I didn’t really sleep last night. Um, so yeah, just feeling a little tender. And you’re making, moving to Maine sound very appealing right now.

Christina: It’s a great way to start the day. It is. . I mean, yeah, it’s been a funny week where things have felt sort of off and like very, uh, frenetic, sort of, and it’s a really nice thing to be able to go plop yourself in the sea.

Becky: Yeah.

Yeah.

Christina: It does wonders for me. Yeah.

Becky: Yeah. It’s eclipse season, so I’m not gonna claim to know enough, or speak intelligently enough about eclipses, but it, it stirs up the pot a little bit. . So, yeah. Yeah, it just feels tender and you know, I’m coming off of launching my offering and, , there’s this high, and then it’s, I think I’m just experiencing a little bit of a low and a little bit of the reality of, um, you know, I just wanna do the thing, but now I have to like, talk about doing the thing and promote doing the thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, this podcast though has been a refuge for sure. It’s the thing that I, going in and doing the editing and, and everything is like, um, been a place where I can go and it feels pure. It feels really pure. Um, and I’m still trying to figure out what pure looks like in the social media space and in the, marketing space.

So it’s, I’ve been very grateful for the work on this podcast.

Christina: I mean, this is like the most authentic arrival of you sharing your wisdom, I think, right?

Christina: Um, because it doesn’t feel, I don’t know, the social media space is such a weird, um, it’s such a weird place to be and I have found it, I have found a home in it by training it very well to work for the things that feel true to me.

Christina: Um, and I think. I can just like weave it around the time I’m spending in the studio or installing stuff so it doesn’t feel too tricky. But I can understand if you’re trying to get out the gate and, and play the game, but, but like, do you really have to play the game? Is the question I keep thinking about for you?

Christina: Or, or how, and maybe this is what you’re figuring out, but how do you play the game in a way that works for Becky?

Becky: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, this is actually what’s really beautiful. A, a beautiful reflection of the work. You know, the tools that I, that I want to teach people is using them on myself and, and being able to just observe, like, okay, you know, I just did a big thing.

I just did a big scary thing. And, um. It’s natural for these feelings to arise. I’m not getting captured by the stories in a way that I would have a couple years ago or before I really started working with, the tools that I have. It’s validating in so many ways.

One, it just feels like I’m not getting captured, so I’m not going down these shame spirals of, of believing the stories of “I can never do this, or I have to play this to game.” Like, I’m not being captured by those stories. And it’s really validating to remind myself I’m just trying to teach something that , has, has changed my life, you know, and you always remind me, like, come back to the small things.

And the small thing is I just, if I can have a tiny impact on one person’s life, that’s, that’s enough, you know? Mm-hmm. So it’s good. It’s, it’s nice to just observe the feelings and not be taken down by them. And also recognize, you know, there’s my bodily hormones involved in how I’m feeling. There’s the eclipse season, there’s the dumpster fire that is our, our, country right now, you know?

So it’s like giving myself so much grace, so much grace, because the shame, I just saw this, this tick when I couldn’t sleep last night. So at 3:00 AM as I was looking through TikTok when I should have been trying to do something else, um, I saw this video about, um, the ways in which shame triggers our nervous system.

At least I was watching educational videos on TikTok, right? um, but the ways in which shame can get, uh, can lock our body into a pattern of survival. And so, because I’m not believing those stories and getting captured by those stories, I don’t have that same level. I don’t have that shame that I would’ve carried before I would’ve looked to all these other successful people and started believing that story of “they can do it,

why can’t I?” You know, and all these, untrue and unhelpful stories, those aren’t really there anymore. It’s just down to I’m feeling these feelings. Let’s feel these feelings.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ‘cause as soon as you start feeling them, they move through you.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Which is really helpful. Um, yes.

Yeah. And there’s always, there’s always something that’s gonna tempt you to spiral.

. You know,

but it’s nice, I think that, that doing, doing this work of, of noticing things and being able to, to gain a new perspective on yourself is so helpful because sometimes I feel like I’m literally observing my feelings or frustrations or less desirable things in my day from a different point of view.

. And usually for me, it’s sort of like a higher point of view and I’m like floating above them, sort of watching them. And that’s on a good day. If I can do that. Sometimes I still spiral through things or, you know, for me it’s kids or like neighbor kids. That’s where I’m tossing around some things right now.

I literally yesterday, neighbor kids.

Yeah, I love ‘em though. But just like yesterday, I was actually recalibrating myself by doing one of your recorded meditations. And I sat down and I was like, oh, good for you Christina, your kids are gonna come home from the bus soon.

You’ve done some work today, give yourself this time, sink in. Just like run your energy. And, and then there was like knock, knock, knock, knock five minutes into it. But um, it’s okay. I finished it after I told the neighbor kid to go home Firmly.

Becky: Boundaries. Boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Have you been playing with energetic boundaries?

Christina: Not yet. That’s my next step.

Becky: Yeah. Yeah. Just put a big old stop sign on the outside of your studio. Yeah, I

Christina: should.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: I like that.

Becky: Play with it. It might actually make him come more at first, but. Give it time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s interesting how you speak about, you know, how like feeling like you’re above, I’ve been experiencing that a lot lately too.

It’s that mine’s kind of on the side. Mm.

But it,

it is like this, um, real feeling of separation of like the distance between, um, myself, which I call higher self observer, self, whatever, and like what I’m, what I am experiencing. Um, it’s really interesting when you can start to perceive that distance.

Christina: Yeah. It’s just like, where are you observing yourself from.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I’ve noticed in my, um, like in meditations and, and different things, I do go up, up is where my body goes. Mm-hmm. Side is where your body goes. Isn’t that nice? Mm-hmm. There’s no right or wrong. Nope. No.

Becky: And sometimes I go up, sometimes I go back, but I’ve noticed with the emotions, they’re kind of hanging out here.

Becky: Yeah. But yeah, it’s, it’s noticing, just noticing what’s happening without that judgment. Um, it’s really nice. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christina: It’s not like up as good or side is good. Nope. All of it just is.

Becky: It just is. . It’s been interesting though to reflect on, ‘cause you know, you and I talked about, we were both really struck by that podcast episode on the Art of Transmission.

So I’ve really been reflecting on what does it mean to, to transmit. What does it mean to be a transmitter in this day and age, in this body at this time? And I don’t have an answer, but that’s been the reflection that, that I’ve been, uh, sitting with, especially this last week, um,

Christina: especially this last week as you are in week one of offering your offerings.

Mm-hmm. Or especially as it, okay, okay.

Becky: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it could, it, it also kind of ties into what’s happening. I don’t, I don’t wanna go down this, this path, but just lightly acknowledging, what’s happening right now uh, in the media. Like what does it mean to be a transmitter of truth and information?

Yeah. Um, yeah, it’s just been kind of, that’s what I’ve been sitting with really this last week.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we, this podcast that you’re referencing was sent to us from a friend by a friend, and it’s, it’s a Buddhist . Uh, podcast. And, and what they talked about was the art of transmission and what that means.

And so the, the thing that really struck me was that in order to be a transmitter, um, meaning you’re filtering consciousness through you into the world as like a quick cliff notes. Would you agree? Does that feel,

Becky: uh, yeah. Sorry, I got distracted. There was a hawk. That’s okay. Outside my window. Yes. It’s so, um.

In this context, it was specific to Buddhism. Mm-hmm. So it’s like you are transmitting the wisdom and the teachings from your teachers, from the ancestors, from the Buddha, um, and it’s flowing through you. Mm-hmm. So it’s like mm-hmm. Through you, as you,

Christina: through you as you was a huge takeaway that we both talked about, but also the fact that in order to be, um, to allow something to flow through you, you need to empty yourself first.

Which to me felt so true. Mm-hmm. Um, I’ve heard you, there was one time this year when you were thinking about how you were gonna offer your wisdom in your classes and things, and you came out of. What do, what do they call it a big, black, sweaty box? Or what’s your hot, it’s like a hot tank that you put, it’s like a sauna, but in your house.

Becky: Oh, my sa yeah. It’s like a personal sauna. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s like a one person, uh, popup sauna. Okay. A big black sweaty box.

Christina: Good thing. They didn’t get me to brand that.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Um, that’s what it looks like to me. But you, it does look

Becky: like a big, black, sweaty box. I’m looking at it right now. Like

Christina: flexible?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. So you came out of that and for the first time you said there was something that felt like it wanted to come through you. Mm-hmm. And it came very slowly. Mm-hmm. And you, I think you, you voice memoed it to yourself or something, right?

Becky: Yeah. I captured the voice memo and I was like, I can’t send this to Christina.

‘cause it’s like a half an hour long with like these long pauses in between.

Christina: Yeah. And it would make sense that something that wants to come through, you come slowly. Mm-hmm. Because that is who you are mm-hmm. And how you operate with a slow rhythm. Um, so to put your ego aside, those were the two, two things that I thought.

It’s, it’s an egoless experience and you must empty yourself, which may be in Buddhist teachings, those two things are the same. I’m not sure. Um, but it. Going into a sauna. And I call it a sauna because my family’s from Finland and that’s what they call it so I always stick with it. For those of you who think, what is she saying?

Becky: Stick with it. Go

Christina: to Finland. They’ll call it a sauna. So, so you came out of that experience and that could arguably be an emptying experience, right? Mm-hmm. You’ve sort of purged your body of sweat and other things, and you are empty. It’s the same way I feel after I get out of a cold ocean. Um, yeah. Do you wanna speak to that or like, like how did that feel?

Becky: Yeah, that was a big one that, that message that wanted to come through.

Christina: Yeah. That was the one where you talked about living as mystery.

Becky: Yeah. Um, and it was around the question of, why do we ask why we’re here?

You know, what is that impulse to ask? Why are we here? And, um, the message in general was that we’re curious and it’s natural.

We wanna understand, but that if we stay in that question, we stay in the mind because then we’re looking for answers. And there is no answer to the question, why are we here? That is, and that’s one of the deepest discomforts of being human, is that we will never know. We’ll never truly know. Why are we here?

What happens when we’re gone? You know, we can guess. We can, I think belief and faith is really important ‘cause it gives you an anchor for your life, but there is no knowing, there is no certainty and that’s really uncomfortable. So I think, you know, the, the search for why are we here is helpful to a point.

And then you must empty, you must empty yourself of all the thoughts and all the teachings and all the knowledge of why are we here? And you need to just experience being here and live, live in the mystery and live as mystery. So yeah, it is around emptiness. It does connect back because it

in order to live as mystery, you need to empty yourself of all the answers that you think you have to the mystery. ‘cause they get in the way. Mm-hmm.

Christina: They do get in the way. Yeah. And I think, um, I think when you can make yourself empty, when you can empty yourself as often as possible, you can have a more direct experience with being here.

Becky: Yes.

Christina: Um, that’s what I’ve been experiencing because I can, um, thinking about what it, what it means to be a transmitter.

I feel as though I am in more direct communication to, um. The universe, whatever you wanna call it, source. Mm-hmm. Um, than I ever have been. And I have only reached this point by emptying my self regularly and also my, um, to, to-do list in a way, being in the studio that’s here and prioritizing, um, simplifying my life so that I could be home here.

Working and living and folding everything into one beautiful experience, um, has helped me realize that it’s essential for me as a creative person, um, to leave a lot of openness. And leave a lot of spaciousness because then I can have those really direct experiences with my own life and respond to them and allow things to flow through me in a way that I never was able to before because I was prioritizing different things.

Right? Like there was one year where I was able to get, um, I had commissions lined up for an entire year ahead of time, which was incredible as an artist to be able to say, I have paid work that can fund my existence for a year.

Is not normal. Not common. So that felt pretty incredible. And then I got.

As I got deeper into that year of paid work, I was like, well, shoot, I actually have no time to just receive my own life. . I am here keeping busy, making more money than I’ve ever made before, but that’s actually not, um, what I want to be doing. Turns out. Turns out it would be really lovely to have more direct experiences.

And so now, um, just as an example, this morning I used to be with my children until around the nine o’clock hour, dropping them off to like a preschool situation, and then I would come home and get ready and I wouldn’t really be able to start my day until nine 30 and now they’re gone at eight 15. But that first hour of every day, I actually don’t do anything other than be in the world or be in the ocean or walk my dog or, you know.

Um. It feels pretty radical to consciously choose that. Yeah.

Becky: Yeah. Because the, the current of the culture would push you towards, you have success, keep going. You need more success. Keep this up, keep this pace. So you’re going against the current of all the messages around.

Christina: Oh, yeah. And it takes really knowing that and staying grounded to it and realizing that that’s what’s important.

Because for example, my accountant, after I did my taxes last year, said, okay, so we’re just gonna, I’ll map it out for next year and I’m just gonna do a 20% increase so that then you’ll, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, sir. Clearly you don’t know me. You don’t know me. I’m not gonna do that. This shows me that I actually have to do, I can do less work and still be just fine.

Mm-hmm. Um. So that’s the plan. And he was like, I shocked him.

Becky: You shocked him? I did. We’re chuckling because, uh, Christina’s human design is her, her incarnation cross is um, or it’s one of your gates, I forget which one it was, but is to basically her mission in this life is to shock, shock people, which, uh, not

Christina: a word I would ever have picked out of a list to think of myself as someone who would do that.

But now that I have heard that from you, I see examples all the time.

Becky: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You shocked me in when I first met you. ‘cause I was like, I did. It’s shocking to, because you are going against the current in so many aspects of your life and that is shocking. It shocks people into, there’s another way to live.

Yeah. Shocks people out of trance maybe.

Christina: Yeah. That’s a nice offering. I could do that. I could be someone who did that. That feels like a nice home.

Becky: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: I guess shock felt like it had like a negative connotation, but I, I don’t think it does. If it was like, um, awaken, I would probably be like, yeah, that, that, yeah.

Yeah. I’ll do that. But I can shock too. You can

Becky: shock.

Christina: Yeah. But the transmission thing, I, um, I think I, when I was listening to it, I could think of all of these specific times where I. And in the, in the podcast, he used the language of having direct experiences with your life, which is something that I will now use more because I know what he means.

What, this young, he was 26, I think this young monk

that was being interviewed. Um, he, um, he was talking about having these direct experiences with your life. Um, I can think of many times when I was listening to him, and I can think of many times when I, um, had a direct experience with my life, one of which was when I was in the studio this summer, I had just listened to a speech by Jim Carey at the Maharishi Maharishi Institute, I think is what it is.

He’s a big transcendental meditation guy. Mm-hmm. And he did this really, really beautiful speech for the graduating class of, uh, some year. And in it, he talked about what seed. One of the things he wanted to talk about was, what seed are you gonna plant today?

And it was a beautiful speech. I recommend it to everybody.

We can probably put it in the show notes. We should. And, and I just loved it. And I spent like 45 minutes listening to it. And I had this seed, I have this big seed that I’m growing right now, and I, it was the initial stages of this seed, and I was writing a really big grant proposal for it. And I held that question.

I held this project in my mind, and I opened the door to take a breath of fresh air just after turning off his speech. And a seed, a literal seed flew through the air and landed in my hand. And this is the type of synchronicity and magic and constant flow of direct experiences with your life that can happen if you offer yourself time to follow whatever wants to be followed.

Do you know what I mean? I, I just like looked at that seat of my hand. I couldn’t believe it, but I could believe it. You know?

Becky: Mm-hmm. Normalizing miracles.

Christina: Normalizing miracles. Mm-hmm. That’s like, that’s really, um, yeah. That’s a big, that’s a big thing this year for me. We talk about it all the

Becky: time.

Yeah. To find that place of, um, where you’re grateful for the miracles, but you’re not surprised. So you’re not taking away from the reverence you feel that they’re here in your life, but also stepping into that vibration of, this is actually more real than thinking miracles are rare. Yeah.

Miracles happen. It’s a miracle we are here, that we exist. It’s, we just don’t offer our attention to the miracles that surround us every day.

Christina: Or we try to UNM miracle. Miracle lies them. Mm-hmm. By logically trying to make them make sense, you know? Which I don’t like that I don’t do it and I don’t like it when I try to share a miracle and someone is like, oh, but that probably happened just because of the moisture in the air or the, you know, takes the magic out of it.

Becky: I think they can both exist. Like I, I, there is this, and I’m not saying you’re pointing to this, this, um, this binary, but like the idea that science is not a miracle and like an explanation through science somehow takes away from the miracle. Like, I think that is a huge false binary just because you can explain, okay, so there was moisture in the air and whatever.

Do you know what a miracle it is that we know that? do you know how much went into us even understanding that and yeah, you can have both, you know, that’s, but I think that’s true. People get lost in, um. I mean, it’s, people don’t get lost. It is the air we breathe, the materialist worldview is the air we breathe.

So people aren’t getting lost. People are just, just trying to live, and this is the worldview that they’ve been force fed they’re entire life. Um mm-hmm. So, of course it feels natural and it’s, it’s destabilizing to have someone, it’s shocking to have an alternative presented . Right. Um, it’s so interesting.

I’m thinking now of, uh, my mom. Mm-hmm. And I’m feeling tender, so I hope I don’t cry. Oh, you should or I will. One of us will. Yeah. But. You know, I grew up very much in the materialist worldview. We’ve talked about this many times that it’s not that I had, um, miracles pointed out to me.

But my mom is taking, uh, she took my, my intro class, um, , the intro class is really about mindfulness and nervous system regulation. And then the second course is all about energy tools, as you know. ‘cause you were my first student.

Christina: I was the og.

Becky: You were the og. Yeah. Um, and she’s taking my class, the online class and she’s like, she’s sending me these messages of like, the material is very interesting and I forget the other word she used, um, out there.

It wasn’t out there. It was like, um. I have it right here. Yeah. She said it’s trippy, trippy and intriguing, you know? Um, and she said, , maybe it’ll take me a couple listens to get it. But she’s taking them, like, that’s amazing to me. And if we can all have just a little bit of an open mind, I think we’re, I think back to emptiness, you know, what does it take to learn something new?

And to have an open mind, you have to empty your mind of everything you’ve been taught before and meet what’s being presented to you with that beginner’s mind. And that to me is. The most cherished thing we can do. ‘cause that means we are meeting each moment as it arises without all this baggage. Like, how are we ever going to learn something new if we don’t empty ourselves of what we’ve known before?

Christina: Yeah. It’s, that’s like been the greatest gift and I think is the greatest gift that children becoming a parent can offer anyone. That’s certainly, um, that was a big return that I had to myself becoming a parent. ‘cause I, I think I, I always have a child like spirit anyway. Um, but, but realizing that I could spend a lot of my day on the ground looking at ants crawl, or spending time realizing that the wind was blowing and running around the yard with my son taking.

Taking note of where the wind was and making a game where the wind would blow us over. Mm. And so every gust of wind was like this miraculous, powerful thing that we enjoyed together, and we spent a really long time doing that.

And so kids are naturally oriented toward the right thing because they are empty, you know?

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Um, and actually even bringing it back to the podcast about transmission, the, the monk that was on it started when he was very young. I think he, I think he stopped, was like 13. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so, um, a lot of times or what, what they said, what the other guy interviewing him or talking to him said was perhaps you’re, um, all of these Buddhist lessons.

Really land in you because you actually don’t have a clouded mind full of knowledge.

You know, quote unquote knowledge taught, institutionalized knowledge, um, because you’re able to, to meet your life with a beginner’s mind. Mm-hmm. It’s so beautiful and it, I oftentimes find myself, um, this is making me think about just the other day when I brought my son to tennis and there’s this beautiful children’s garden near where he practices tennis and all of these other parents are there, um, working usually, you know, ‘cause it’s a, it’s at like four o’clock, so the workday’s not done.

And, um, I spend time in the children’s garden finding, finding monarch caterpillars and, and seeing what the bugs are doing. And, um, it’s, and, and then like I’m with kids. I’m bringing kids into the experience because I think. I think I would feel so sad inside if I was sitting there on a computer surrounded by all of this life that’s right here, right?

Like we get the gift of actually being here. Um, and it just makes me want to tell everyone, look, did you know there, there are like a, a, a team of bees, all different types of bees on these, on these asters over here or whatever they’re doing. Um, yeah. But kids are all over the place. Kids are all over the place in those places just already having direct experiences and using their beginner’s minds to actually be really present in their experience there.

Becky: Mm-hmm. I’m thinking now of, um, it was Meister Eckhart. Yeah. That said, um. Is, I can’t remember his exact words, but, uh, progress is a process of subtraction, not addition, right? Mm-hmm. Or growth or evolution or, uh, enlightenment. What word did he use?

Christina: He, no. Um, I, I love that quote too. And it is Meister Eckhart.

And he says, “the soul does not grow by addition, but by subtraction.”

Becky: Yes. That’s

it.

Yeah. The message or intuition that wants to come through me right now is this, it feels like a breath. It feels like, you know, ‘cause we come in with beginner’s mind with, it’s not subtraction at the beginning. So it feels like this coming into body and adding and then subtracting.

Mm-hmm.

Christina: I love that. And it, you doing that and saying that it’s an, an intuition. I think that’s a lot of what this whole message on transition reminded me of, and what this whole last two years has reminded me of is that the things that I know that I feel and the things that you know, and that you feel deeply are your transmissions, right?

Mm-hmm. Like, that’s your intuition because it is flowing through you as you, it’s the, as you, that feels the most important to me.

Becky: Well, first of all, I wanna say it’s been editing. The, the podcast has been really interesting because. I’ve haven’t wanted to take out as much of the wrestling with language that we do and the ums and the, the starts and stops, because I want people to witness, there’s, there’s so many examples out there of like polished, you know, quote unquote Yes, polished outcomes.

And I want people to witness

that there is wrestling. It’s a process and there’s, you know, there’s wrestling through. So that’s the first thing that wanted to come through. And the second is, I am finding more and more, it takes great strength and courage to have an empty mind, to be a transmitter. And to transmit something in this world, whether it be art, whether it be, you know.

It, it doesn’t, we’re, it’s a, it’s a Buddhist term, but we’re taking it in like, what wants to come through you? What are you meant to offer to this world? And I’m really realizing how much courage it takes to empty your mind, because there’s so many messages that will ask, what are your credentials?

Where’s your, where is your, your citation, you know, where is that message coming from? And there isn’t a lot of messages that are saying, I value that message because I can tell that it just came through you. You know, they wanna know, like, like it’s only valid if someone else of note, probably a man said it first affirms it or said it first.

Yeah. Yeah. Said it first or affirms it. Yeah. And I. And so I am recognizing more and more how much courage it takes to, to empty the mind and say, that message just came through me and I probably, like, no information is original. It’s coming from source. It’s not mine. Mm-hmm. I’m not saying like, I’m not trying to copyright it.

Mm-hmm. Or own it, like whatever wants to come through me. I’m not trying to own it. Um, but I feel the, the forces that are still trying to pull me towards prove your validation. Like validate, where’s your validation? Yeah.

Christina: Oh yeah.

I, um, I think it is brave. I think I was unconsciously doing the brave work forever until yeah, two-ish years ago.

And then once you become conscious of it, it’s like, I get it. I had a, a really good friend come into a studio opening. She came up and it was one of the first times I’d met her and now we’re really good friends and she came up to some of my work and was like, Hey, you are so brave.

And I was like, what? Thank you for coming to the studio, opening brave. Really? This is like, I just feel like I get to live like my best life. I like, are you kidding me? This is so great. And. Now I understand what she meant because to make something and to put it out in the world, and share your honest experience is vulnerable and that is scary.

And so doing that scary and vulnerable thing is brave.

Um, and I, you know, we’ve talked about this, but like, being vulnerable isn’t a hard thing for me because I grew up in a safe place and, uh, was encouraged by my parents and I Yeah. I, and so now diving deeper into how can I consciously create work that really matters or make a big pivot into new type of work, which is something I’m, I’m doing that’s really brave.

Becky: Yeah. It, it’s really brave because it’s vulner. It’s on a couple levels. On one, it’s brave and vulnerable because you’re putting out a piece of you, you know, you’re putting out your, what’s coming through you authentically, and you’re not trying to be like anyone else. There’s also a level of, um, survival and physical safety that comes up for me, and I know we’ve talked about this before about the money, you know, it’s Oh

Christina: yeah.

It,

Becky: you are being, uh, being an artist is not the safe path. And, I’m sure there have been times in your life where you’ve been scared, you know, I’m not saying there’s no fear. Yeah. Um, but I, I was actually reflecting on this, this, this morning because, you know, I am putting my offering out into the world and, and.

I’m very supported my wife supports us financially for now, but like, that’s not a sustainable thing for our happiness. So there is, there’s this survival aspect to it. And in reality I have a support system in my family and because I wasn’t taught to really carry safety in my body, I can forget that my body doesn’t know that.

My mind knows that if my life fell apart, you know, my parents would be there. Absolutely. And I’m very privileged and lucky in that. And still my body doesn’t know that and my body can go into survival mode. So it’s brave on a, on a lot of levels and it really like raising your kids and doing this work as a parent.

This work, meaning learning how to find safety in your body, learning how to regulate your nervous system and then demonstrating that to your kids is probably the biggest

gift.

And I’m biased ‘cause this is my lens, but it’s such a gift to give your children and to have children who grow up with a felt sense of safety in their body where they can be authentically themselves is revolutionary.

Christina: Yeah. But it’s a, it’s a reciprocal experience. It’s a reciprocal relationship because they, they welcome me back into myself too.

Becky: Hmm.

Christina: Yeah. It’s, I don’t think it’s like I’m, I’m their teacher and they’re my students. . It’s the other way.

Often it’s a cyclical thing. We go back and forth. I teach here, you teach me, I teach here, you teach me.

Becky: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s not a teaching, it’s a showing up and demonstrating. Mm-hmm. You could tell your kids all you want to breathe and to be present and you can tell your kids accept yourself, but if you don’t accept yourself as the caregiver, um, I mean, I’m not a parent, so this is theoretical, but, um, yeah.

Mm-hmm. It’s a gift. Mm-hmm.

This tender feeling does feel like an, an emptying, it does feel like an emptiness of like,

because I’m not in my head, you know, I’m feeling these feelings which are in the body. I mean, even down to like, I’m feeling the, the, um, cyclical rhythms of my womanly body. You know, I’m very much in my body and not in my head, and it feels like an emptying, um. And it’s, it’s been such a, um, beautiful, uh, practice editing these podcasts and reflecting and hearing my own voice and, and hearing, I can tell my voice has now become an indicator for me of when my nervous system is activated and when I’m pulled out of presence.

Wow. And when I’m in presence, my voice and my handwriting, actually, I had this thought the other day, um, and it’s actually a thing your voice gets tightened when you’re, like, your vocal cords get tight when you’re in, um, activation. And I can sense it now. And just because I’ve been listening to my voice so often over the last You have couple weeks.

Yeah. Um, yeah. It’s interesting, but it does take courage to sit in the silence, to trust that what will come through will come through. Mm-hmm.

Christina: I never want to get, I never want to get into like a dangerous thought process in recording these or in even making them where it’s like, what’s, what’s important for me to say right now?

What’s important for us to say? Then it gets too ego and like, we’re just two people. Mm-hmm.

Becky: I’ve caught myself in, in, that’s what I mean in like going back and editing. I can tell when I’m captured. It’s not all the time, but I, I see it. I, I can sense it when I got captured by, um,

yeah. It’s usually when I’m trying, when I’m like spouting a fact or a figure, which is so out of alignment, um, I love facts. I really do. I love facts, but they’re meant to like, come into me, bring me the essence of that fact, and then integrate into my being and come out a different way. They’re never meant to like come back out as facts.

Um, yeah. But it’s, but we’re all learning and that’s what I love about leaving in the stuttering and leaving in Yeah. Like, that’s where I was in that episode. That was my, uh. My stage of growth and let it be what it is, you know?

Christina: Yes. This is not a place where we’re showing up as a version of ourselves that’s like very put together and, uh, talking with you here is like talking with you on my front porch.

It’s the same. And that’s like, yeah, that’s what, um, yeah. I think that’s a really nice thing. It’s, I mean, first of all, it’s just nice to just chat with you.

Um, I think the point is not to be in full presence all the time, it’s just to be able to, to reorient yourself to it if you can, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, come back to it, come back to the breath, come back to noticing things. Yeah. Noticing your life, like pulling back. Where are you?

Here you are.

Becky: So as you reflect on being a transmitter, as Christina. Do you have a sense or can you articulate what it looks like or what it feels like, or what’s important for you or what needs to come? What wants to come through you?

Christina: Yeah. I think, um, I think for me, I am working on, um, I am working on being able to receive my life every day for at least a little bit of the day, which to me, looks like scheduling time for quiet, being outside in all seasons, in presence, in a, in a space of noticing and, um, not overscheduling.

My time, which I have slowly accepted that, that is the, that is where I feel the best at this moment, is by offering, probably like 20% of my week is quiet.

In a non, um, I was gonna say non making, but like non-active. ‘cause I have plenty of time. You know, there’s probably like 40%, 50% of my week that’s in the studio, listening to a podcast, listening to music, moving my body, making things, which oftentimes can be a very present practice.

But I have noticed that in order for me to be able to transmit what I believe is meant to come through me, I need at least 20% of my week to be extremely non-engaged. And maybe non-engaged is the wrong word, but, um. Very quiet and slow and present. Um, and that is a strange thing to know about yourself when you’re in a world where productivity is, is the goal.

And when you’ve been, um, successful and, and kept busy and happy mm-hmm. With that productivity, like it wasn’t a, a sad experience. I loved it. But now I’m just being honest with where I am. And where I am is asking me to be really quiet and to, um, honestly, my intuition is asking me to clear the table right now, which feels.

Wacky, but it’s here. It is asking, and I can hear it. I can hear it saying, no, no, actually a little bit more needs to be cleared away. You thought that was enough? Actually, a little bit more. What happens when I do that go, it’s very icky feeling. Um, but I am hearing it and I think there’s something new that’s coming around the corner and I can’t, it, it stopped there right now.

It won’t come around the corner to meet me until I am available enough to it, if that makes sense.

And then I will transmit whatever it’s, I meet, that’s where I am right now. Even that feels like a frightening thing to say out loud, but I know it, so why do I have to keep it in there? Yeah.

Becky: Yeah. And when you give yourself that space.

How do you notice or what do you notice about what you transmit and how you transmit?

Christina: It just feels more authentic if I do that. I could keep myself busy doing things that once felt authentic in a more unconscious way. Um, but it feels, it feels very different because what I’m doing is like surrendering completely to the thing that wants to come through.

I’m not saying, Ooh, but I need this and I need this, and like, this is actually pretty important to me. It feels whew. Like the deeper I go, the more there is, but I have to be willing to, um, really surrender myself to the thing and then the thing feels better coming out of me.

Becky: That’s what I was gonna ask is how do you recognize authenticity in your felt sense?

Christina: It’s just a, it’s just a feeling. It’s just like a soul alignment. Um, and that is a hard feeling to describe, but I, I feel like I keep getting closer, um, to something very true. And, but I think I can get even closer to it.

And I think, um, it doesn’t feel like, it doesn’t feel like a, like an addiction situation where this feels good, so I want more.

It’s like I actually think I have brushed the surface of something extremely real and raw and true. And. It’s almost like I get the visual when I’m talking about this. I get the visual of like a very dusty painting and I’ve dusted some of it, like something that’s been sort of like under dirt or dust for a while and I’m, I just, what, what else is there?

What else is there? What else is there in this painting? What, actually, I can only see a part of it and it’s beautiful and I could happily live looking at that for a while,

forever. Mm-hmm.

But I think, I feel what I am sensing is asking me to continue to spend my time unearthing whatever it is, is there

Becky: Mm.

Christina: That is brave.

That feels brave. Yeah.

Speaker: Mm,

Christina: mm-hmm. Do you want the question reflected back on you, or do you feel like it doesn’t apply?

Becky: What the transmission

Speaker 4: Yeah,

Becky: I don’t know. Ask it and we’ll see what comes through.

Christina: So what does, what does it feel like to be a transmitter to you? How does it, how does it feel?

Speaker: Hmm.

Becky: It feels like

the image that’s coming up is like this invisible hand pushing me from behind, and I’m like, no, no, no, no, no.

Uh, um, not like a full resistance, but a, it feels like this invisible hand is pushing me. Forward, um, on a stage, I’m getting the image of a stage and I don’t wanna be on the stage. Um,

Christina: who’s watching you?

Becky: It doesn’t matter actually, that’s, I’m not even seeing, um, an audience. I just got this image of like a light beam coming down, but it’s not shining on me. It’s like going through me, like all the way through.

Um,

yeah. So that’s the, the raw image that’s coming, coming through, and the feeling in my body. I feel very much in my body and not in my head. And um, and I used my tools. I, you know, sat down and I meditated and I prepared. ‘cause in the podcast, you know, he talks about you have to prepare yourself to be a transmitter.

And I am, now that I’m on the stage, you know, now that I’ve been pushed onto the stage, I have such deep reverence for being here. So it does feel really important to prepare myself as much as possible because there are a lot of voices, um, that are doing the best they can. I’m, and there’s, they’re doing great work, but I just get this feeling that they’re not living what they’re saying.

And that’s fine. You know, they help a lot of people. But for me, I need to live anything I’m transmitting. And it, maybe that’s ‘cause I am so rooted in, I’m not a Buddhist practitioner necessarily, but I am rooted in the teachings of the Buddha, which say you practice, it’s all practice and you have to practice what you teach.

Like Tik Han, he did a lot of trans of translating when he was alive and he would rewrite the, the sutras, which are the teachings of, of the Buddha. But he had to live them first. That was in the podcast. And um mm-hmm. And that feels true to me. Like I can’t teach anything that I don’t, I haven’t practiced and shown in my own life that they are valuable.

Um. So I’m feeling to be a transmitter means I have to show up in my life, in my, for my own life. And I think my greatest gift can be to just show up and share my experience and show more than tell, like, show this is what it feels like when, when you practice presence. Um,

and it feels tender. It feels really tender to be a transmitter and trying to be one authentically in a world in this world right now. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christina: Thank you.

Becky: Mm-hmm. Thank you for asking. Mm-hmm.

Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.

Becky: The deeper into my practice I get the more and more I feel that most of life is just one giant trust fall. Which makes sense because the only minute, the only moment that is real is this moment right now and absolutely anything can happen in the next moment no matter how hard I try to control or prepare.

So like, yeah, life is just one giant trust fall over and over again every single moment.

Becky here with a few clarifications and deep dives. In this episode, I dipped a bit into the world of science, and remembered neither one of us are skilled in the language of facts and stats - we’re much better suited to talking about the felt sense of our experience. That being said, truth is very important to both os us, so below you will find additional information on a few of the topics that organically came up in this conversation.

Let’s talk about time

When I said we’re 3D beings trapped in time, I was speaking about our experience of time, more than the actual physics of it. According to Einstein, we actually exist in 4D spacetime so we’re not technically 3D beings “trapped” in time. Einstein’s relativity treats time as the fourth dimension, woven into space itself. But from where we sit—breathing, aging, becoming—it can still feel like a river flowing in one direction that we’re swimming in.

How about those bees

The average honeybee lives just 5–7 weeks in summer, though queen bees can live for years.

In that short lifespan, bees experience intense sensory and cognitive activity—they learn, communicate through dance, forage, adapt to weather, and form complex social structures.

Assuming the bee’s summer lifespan is ~42 days, one day is ~2.4% of its life. For a human living 80 years, that equivalent would be almost two years!

If you want to explore this practice of deep attention to plants and animals as portals to “more-than-human” time, we highly recommend reading Robin Wall Kimmerer’s, “Braiding Sweetgrass”

Corrections

I tend to mix up anthropocentrism and anthropomorphism so here are the definitions just to be clear

- Anthropomorphism - the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object.

- Anthropocentrism - is the philosophical stance that humans are the most significant entity on Earth, with all other living beings and natural phenomena possessing value only in relation to human needs and interests.

I also said that humans being are the youngest species—which isn’t *technically* true (there are newer species evolving all the time). But compared to rocks, trees, fungi, and other ancient lifeforms that have weathered billions of years and five mass extinctions, we are young. We’re still learning how to be in relationship—with each other, with the planet, and with the wider web of life. So maybe “youngest” isn’t accurate—but “new to the conversation” feels about right.

Episode Transcript

Becky: Did you know that praying mantis can fly a little bit? I didn't, until one flew right in front of my lawnmower. They're so crazy. The beings are really testing my presence today.

There are so many. Like the whole ground is alive. It's wild. But I guess that's why I get the beautiful choral music at night. So trade-offs. Also not so fun fact about praying mantises. They hunt hummingbirds. It's crazy. Look it up. Nature. I love you.

Welcome to the third episode of Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing And Everything At The Same Time. In this episode, we talk a lot about gifts. The gifts of mowing your lawn, of the bees, of being with someone towards the end of their life, and most importantly, the gift of presence. In this episode, as always, what you'll hear is the felt truth of our experience.

If we dip into the world of science, you can trust it's directionally true, but not necessarily an academic citation. So if you're someone who loves the facts, we've included links and deeper dives in the show notes. I hope you enjoy.

Christina: So I, I am reading Joanna Macy's World As Lover World of Self. Mm. I think I heard about this book when I listened to an on being podcast with her, and then I remember telling you about it and you were like.

Wow. Yeah, she was a major teacher of mine. Mm-hmm. Um, did she actually teach you or did you just mm-hmm. Really

Becky: like in person? It was, I mean, it was a workshop, so I didn't have, 'cause she's an adjunct. Oh. Was, oh, I'm still not, yeah. I mean, is, well she's still a great teacher of mine that is still very present, but her physical being Yes.

Has moved on, , like 95. I mean, it's, and teaching up to the like last. Days of her life. It's incredible. She is incredible. Um, yes, she was an adjunct professor of the grad school that I went to, so I did a, um, it was like a, a not a full semester class, but like a workshop on deep time and it was so embodied and she just has a presence.

She just has such a presence and made such, um, a huge impact on me. Yeah. Yeah. She's incredible.

Christina: Yeah. That's amazing that you got to be in the same space as her and, and understand that presence. Feel it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so this book is just profound on many levels. Um, and actually what I wanted to share is not even a quote from her.

It's a quote that she quotes. So she quotes, um, John Seed, who is the founder of Rainforest Information Center of the Rainforest Information Center in Australia. And this paragraph is what I was thinking about and it reminded me so much about lots of different conversations that you and I have had.

So I thought I would read it. Perfect. Um, so he says, when humans investigate and see through their layers of Anth anthropocentric self cherishing, a most profound change in consciousness begins to take place. Alienation subsides the human is no longer an outsider apart. Your humanness is then recognized as being merely the most recent stage of your existence.

As you stop identifying exclusively with this chapter, you start to get in touch with yourself. As vertebra, as mammal, as species only recently emerged from the rainforest. As the fog of amnesia disperses, there is a transformation in your relationship to other species and in your commitment to them. The thousands of years of imagined separation are over and we can begin to recall our true nature.

That is the change is a spiritual one. Thinking like a mountain, sometimes referred to as deep ecology. As your memory improves, there is an identification with all life. Remember, our childhood as rocks, as lava rocks contain the potentiality to weave themselves into such stuff as this. We are the rocks dancing.

Hmm hmm. So as I'm reading this book, I'm, I'm dog earing pages, and that one had a crease immediately. And I was thinking, you know, I, I think I can look back in my life and, um, recall many moments where I felt more myself in nature. Mm-hmm. And he puts words to that memory that remembering, you know, you and I talk about remembering all of the time.

Mm-hmm. Um, uh, it's just so beautiful. We are the rocks dancing.

Mm-hmm.

Christina: Rocks don't have feet. We get to move, you know, like

Becky: it's, I'm giggling. 'cause what instantly came to mind was that scene and everything everywhere, all at once, where they are rocks and they have the little googly eyes and oh my God, she's like, rocks don't move.

And the mom rock, like wiggles towards her and then she puts on the googly eyes and, um, it's like a, it's, I mean, it's expressing the same thing, you know, that we are, we are the rocks dancing and shimmering and wanting to relate to each other. And we are the rocks with googly eyes, you know?

Christina: Yeah,

Becky: yeah.

Christina: It, it's so, um, it's, yeah, it just landed really, it landed really deep in me. Um, and it got me thinking about the fact that sometimes. If like, I can remember being a kid in a car, 'cause I moved around a lot and the way we moved ourselves from place to place was in a car on cross country trips.

Mm-hmm. And I can remember looking out of the windows and seeing trees and thinking like, I'm actually just looking at like grass in the garden, you know, or, or Queen Ann's lace, you know, a big fluffy tree that's 30 or 40 feet tall, looks just like Queen Ann's lace in the garden if you're laying down, looking at it on the side, you know,

Becky: like when you change your perspective and your Exactly.

Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, and then it got me thinking, , about this time that you said, 'cause I, I think you get a lot of, you. Big, bright ideas. You know, some people get them in the shower. I think you, Becky get them when you mow your lawn.

Becky: I do, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because I've turned it into, first of all, it's, you know, being in nature and I think that's the biggest thing is being outside.

And for the uninitiated in my life, mowing my lawn takes about four plus hours. 'cause we have two plus acres. And I, I don't see stupidly bought a push mower because I think it's been a great teacher. I think, you know, sometimes you make decisions in your life. To not buying the, the riding lawnmower, the logical choice or the prac practical choice.

And it ends up being a great teacher. And that's what this decision has been. So, yeah, it's, first of all, I'm out in nature for a long time, and I intentionally turned it into a walking meditation. So instead of getting so frustrated that I made this stupid quote unquote stupid decision, and that, you know, kicking myself for not being more in shape.

So it's so hard. It's like, no, let me slow down. I set an intention before I start to cause as little harm as possible because you know, when you slow down, so when we used to have someone do our lawn, I would go out and I would find snakes like chopped up and dismembered because the guy was just going so fast.

And, and when I started doing it myself, I saw all these bees in the flowers and they don't move. Right. They don't move. Yeah. And it's interesting. Of course it's not gonna move, like it doesn't, like when you're that small, I mean, what would be the scale of, of a bee to us, like us to something else like a skyscraper?

Would you notice if the skyscraper, like, would you move if there was a skyscraper right next to you? No, you go about your business. It's, it's like the scale is unfathomable. Um, but yeah, so I've turned it into this very intentional walking meditation where my intention is to do as little harm as possible, which means I have to go slow because if I'm just, totally mindless, mowing the lawn, um, I'm gonna run over so many bees and, um, and of course like I'm not perfect.

I run over bees. I get lost in thought and then I come back to presence. But it's that presence for me and nature, but it's the presence. I think that that allows these clarity moments to come through. So it's been a beautiful practice.

Christina: Yeah. And didn't you say there was like, there was one day where you sent me a voice memo and you were just like, it just hit me when I was going so slowly and I was paying attention to where the bees were and I wasn't, I was consciously not, you know, running them over with the lawnmower and, and then I thought about the life cycle of a bee and how long a day is for a bee.

Yeah. Like, can you remember what you said? Can you remember your thought process on that and share that? Or can you put yourself in that place again?

Becky: Yeah, I can try. Um, I don't, I can't remember if I was mowing the lawn that time, but , I was outside and I saw a bee and I just, I, I think I sat down in the grass and like sat next to it and I really started to, um, connect with the perspective of the bee. I think a lot about time. I think time is really interesting because we think of time as, you know, this fixed thing, but it's not, it's actually not fixed. Einstein pointed to this, that time is relative um, but we're trapped in it. We're trapped in time. We can't physically escape time because we are a, three dimensional being, living within time, but our imaginations and our consciousness can transcend time.

Mm. So it was this moment of connecting to the bee and the bee's life. I assume it's like a year. I don't even know, but I, it's shorter than mine, let's just say that. Mm-hmm. Um. So how does that shape their relationship to time?

Hmm.

And, and not that they're, not that I'm saying that the bees are sitting around thinking about time, but like, what is their experience of time?

How is one moment, so a bee's life is condensed? If your life is, you know, one year, yeah, every day is, you know, one, 365th of your life.

If your life is. 75, 80 years that day feels much, um, can feel much shorter. So if we can connect with the perspective of other beings, my experience of it is it slowed time down. Mm-hmm. And it, it like that, those few minutes that I was connecting with the bee felt spacious and expansive and, um, yeah, I think a lot about that.

And I think that's what nature, nature can teach us a so much. Oh my gosh.

Christina: Yeah. And I think, um, in, in a lot of, in most people's day to day, at least like in our Western culture. They might find that sitting down, like taking that thought of like, huh, maybe I'll sit down and watch a bee.

That that actually is a waste of time.

Yeah.

Christina: So I think you're right. I think that you actually did not, you weren't mowing your lawn when you had this thought, but I think consciously mowing your lawn helped serve you this thought later.

Becky: Absolutely.

Christina: So you start to relate to nature in a way that allows you in your human day to day where you are going grocery shopping and doing all the things, keeping your house clean, whatever, where you are more subject to time.

I think that because you can take small moments to experience timelessness, you're able to in integrate it into your human existence, which is a really worthwhile. Thing, I think. Mm-hmm. I, I've started doing this with my kids too. Um, speaking of , like cycles of time and paying attention in nature, we've, we found milkweed in, in the meadow that I planted in the backyard, and every day, a couple of times a day, I take them out and we look at what's happening and it's, it's kind of amazing what happens with them.

I was thinking about it last night and, you know, you learn this in grade school. There's like the, the like puke bait stage and then, then there's the chrysalis stage and then inside of the chrysalis, this thing literally changes itself completely. Yeah. From, I, I mean, it's so mind boggling to me and so beautiful that we can watch as outsiders and watch this incredible transformation take place.

And I don't know. How you could spend time doing that as a human being and not reflect that experience back on yourself.

Mm-hmm.

Becky: So what was hitting me is, and it's tying back to , the passage that you read in the beginning. In order for me to have that experience with the bee, I first had to respect its life, you know?

Yes. And I think you are right that the mowing the , the intention that I set and the, the conscious practice of mowing my lawn, I was respecting the life of the bees. because we move so fast as a species in our modern culture, and because we aren't taught to, we are brought up in anthropomorphism where we are the apex species and, and every other species is here for our extraction or our, you know, their resource or they're in the way.

You know, that's the culture that, that we're. The modern culture. Definitely not all of , human evolution, it's just our modern culture. When you step into your relationship with the ecosystem, you find respect for all these beings.

And how can you ever receive messages from something that you don't even see? You know, you're not even, and I don't mean like see with your eyes, but I mean really see as like you are a being who has just as much right to be here on this planet as I do, and you as a being, whether you're conscious or not, like we're not gonna debate how, like the complexity of the.

I'm not gonna compare a B's thoughts to my thoughts as a value. Like, they're here, I'm here. We both wanna be here. We both deserve to be here. That's it. Yeah. I don't need to justify it, you know? Um, and when you step into that, I think you, you just learn so much and yeah, it's been a great gift. 'cause really it's, I'm getting the gift.

It's not me like saving the bees. 'cause I run over plenty of bees. That's the other thing is like, I'm a skyscraper trying to like, not cause harm to tiny beings, you know? So of course I'm going to cause harm, But can I cause as little harm as possible and respect to the best of my abilities, the, the other beings that I share this planet with.

The other thing that was coming up is around time and you were talking about like bringing that presence in tear every day. And that really , has been the biggest gift, you know, because, and you said like some people would think that's a waste of time of sitting with the bees. And it comes up for me of like, even the way we talk about time, we spend time, we waste time, you know, and it's so ingrained, but it's like we think of time as this commodity or this, or this resource.

Um, h how is it possible to waste time? Like time is just the.

Time is like the atmosphere, you know, how can you waste that? I don't know. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. And that's just a product of capitalism and you know, being in a society where producing is the most highly valued thing. Um, I question that. Yeah. Because how much value did I get out of that? And then it stretches those moments into, yeah.

When I'm grocery shopping and like, can I slow that down and like really like step into the presence of the bee and slow that experience down. So I take in more of the experience 'cause our brains, The way it processes time and the way we experience time is when we are really present, we're encoding more sensory details.

So we're taking in the colors, the textures, and it makes time feel more spacious. So like if you, when you go on vacation and you're in a new environment and you're not as stressed maybe, and your obligations aren't there, you're encoding a lot more data and it feels, it can feel very spacious if we're present.

But if when we're at home and we're doing the same thing over and over again and we're not present. It feels so condensed. That's why time feels shorter the older we get and our life becomes more routine. So I don't know how long I'm gonna be on this planet, but I want it to feel as long and spacious as possible.

So it's such a gift that I can bring it into everything, like, or try to practice. I can practice,

Christina: practice

Becky: bringing it into all these places.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, and it's something that I really, I really value as a parent, like bringing my kids into this experience. Um, and uh, sometimes it can feel, you know, like they have a lot of friends who have all these gadgets and digital doodads and screens and little cars that they drive each other around in, down the street.

And then when kids come to our. I was, I'm like, here's some sticks and a pair of scissors and a little jar for collecting flowers. Also, make sure that you find that lemon balm around the corner and put your hands in it and then smell what it smells like, you know? Yes, yes. This is what my dad taught us to do in summertime.

He would take us on these little woods walks and we would find the berries growing and we would eat them. Mm. Um, but like, leave some for animals. Right. Uh, it's just our, um, presence in the natural world as a part of the natural world and not separate from the natural world is something that we always have access to, regardless of the things that we own.

You know, like I could be having a really great year where my career is skyrocketing and I feel the power of that. And I could have a year where things are very slow and I am giving myself a sabbatical to just sit and be present in my life. And the opportunities to exist inside of the natural world are the same in both mm-hmm.

Instances. Um, it's just, I don't know. Mm-hmm. The more I, the more I think about this, the more that I just, I just wanna remind everybody all the time that you can be quote unquote successful and still be, um, slow and reverent to the I judge to be the right things, to be slow and reverent towards, you know.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Um, also, I, I, I always consciously try to learn the names of things. Talking about, like when you were saying how the. How can you see something, quote unquote, see something. Um, if you don't acknowledge its existence as being what it is. And especially after moving here to this old house with these old trees and such soul here, I would walk around the yard and meet plants as if they were friends.

Mm-hmm. Like, what is your name? I have the internet to find that out. So I'm gonna go learn it and I'm gonna write it down on a piece of paper, just the same as I do with my neighbors, so that when they walk by, I can call them by their name. So Amy might walk by with her dogs and I can say, look at this blue Astor around the corner.

They're the same.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Amy and the As. Right. Um,

Becky: and I love that. I feel like that's the name of a good book, Amy and the Astor.

Christina: Yeah. It does have a, or like a band name, maybe. Oh, yeah. It has a

Becky: good ring. Yeah,

Christina: it

Becky: does.

Christina: Ugh, ugh. Yeah. The relationships are different, you know? Mm-hmm. Like your relationship with your dog is different than your relationship with your wife.

You can, you can have a different communion with them, and it doesn't make one better than the other. But this has just really been, this is like what I've been thinking about so much lately.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Is, yeah.

Becky: It's so interesting, and this comes back to something we've talked about so many times of like our differences and yet similarities because.

As you were reflecting on, like you like to name them. I have found for me, and this is what is so beautiful, is there's no wrong way. There's no perfect way to relate to nature. Naming takes me out of it. So, I tend to just like be, it feels like I just wanna be with them in my, body.

And when I, I think about this with the birds, you know, I listen to the birds and, and I watch them. And when I start thinking, thinking, what kind of bird is this? Because it doesn't come naturally for me. Like I've watched, like this is very natural for you to name them. And this is what's so beautiful is everyone's different and there's no right way to commune with nature.

So for me it's like I've given that up. I'll see the same plant probably my whole life and have no idea what. What kind of plant it is, but I'll witness it, I'll witness that individual plant and be with it. Or you know, I'll listen to that individual bird for 20 minutes, um, and have no idea what species it is or,

Christina: yeah.

Becky: But, so yeah, there's, there's, it's, and it's always available. You don't need, like, we both are very lucky that we live, we have a lot of access to nature, but mm-hmm. It does like, look out your window. You could look at commune with the sky, you could commune with the pigeons if you're living in the city. Um, just something beyond yourself, you know?

Christina: There's, there's always a moment every year too, thinking about people. 'cause I'm aware of that too. It, it's all expanded here since I'm much um, I'm in a much. Deeper natural place here. So everything, my sense of all of this has just expanded so much. But even, you know, I would find these experiences in New York City mm-hmm.

Many of times, you know, you can, there's even just very simply the sound of leaves when they, when they come into being every year and they touch each other. Mm-hmm. You get this rustling sound and there's a day that that has not happened and there's the day that it happens. And that happens every year.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: The day the leaves suddenly are here and can blow. And they tell you the wind is here and you can orient yourself towards nature anywhere. Absolutely. Light water every, yeah. Yeah.

Becky: And it's also like stepping out of that separation, that there is nature out there and then there's me or there's humans.

We are a part of nature. So even living in a city and, and looking for just the light, looking for, you know, there is life all around you. And it's, it's different in a city. I think that's why both of us gravitated towards being in nature. Mm-hmm. But it is there. Your description was beautiful. Like when I lived in the city every weekend, probably also 'cause I was very broke, but I would just walk, you know, and it was, um, I would walk to Central Park, I would, you know, just walk the streets and it's so alive.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: Um, I think it's just orienting to what's alive no matter what. Um, no matter where you are, what environment you're in, what is alive around you, and there is no separation between nature and humans. I think what's what I found challenging towards the end of living in a city is when you're in a city, so much of it is human made, and it's predominantly human.

And we are the youngest species, you know, we're learning how to be human, so we're causing a lot of harm. And I think when you're in a city, you're confronted with that and you maybe are a little more detached from the older beings, the rocks, the trees, the ones that have been on this planet through.

Five mass extinctions and change and upheaval. And I think , when you're connecting with something so much more ancient who know how to be and who know how to be alive, um, it makes it a little easier for me. It gives me like a grounding point in, oh, we're just young. We're just, yeah. Like, it reorients me.

Christina: Yeah. I feel that too. I think that I found this essence of this feeling even in New York City mm-hmm. Through witnessing all the different ways that people can exist together and separately and, um. Like, I remember walking, walking. I would always walk too.

That's the best part about living in a city. You're just walking everywhere. And I remember one time texting a newer friend of mine and saying, and maybe this is my way of just feeling it out. Like, is she on the same wavelength as I am? Do other people feel this way? And I was walking through, , a park in the East Village and the, there was like fall.

And so the leaves were, were falling off of the trees and kids were playing with their families. You see so much. There's like someone who is unhoused mm-hmm. And a family playing and elderly people walking and jazz in the park and the, like, the smell of cider donuts and stuff. And it's, it's a very, it's a sensory overload in a different way than when you're in nature.

Um, but it still is a sensory overload. And I, I texted her and I said, do you ever just get the feeling of everything being illuminated in your life and you feel your place in the family of things? And it's just, it's such an overwhelming sensation, but I have it all the time. And she, I think she was probably like, yes, okay.

I don't think she thought I was strange, but I wonder if maybe that planted a little seed. Like I, what is Christina High? No, I'm not high. Christina's

Becky: never high.

Christina: Christina's never high. Not necessarily

Becky: the case with me, but, uh, Christina's always high on life,

Christina: life, life and, and even in New York City where there's like.

On the ground and a wrap that crosses my path and all of these different things, there's still this really grounding feeling that's equally lifted of just, ugh, I get to be a part of this thing. Mm-hmm. And everything is humming around me.

Mm-hmm.

Christina: And granted it's a much greater, more faceted and full feeling doing that in the salt marsh in the fall than in a New York City Park, but it's still sort of there.

Becky: Yeah. It's absolutely there. Yeah. And I feel it now. Um, I think I had to leave the city to do some work, so what's coming up for, for me is, um. Like even the way you describe it of like the poop on the street and the unhoused, like you're not glossing over the more uncomfortable things. And um, you, I don't think you ever have.

And I think for me, I had to do some work around discomfort and like being able to see those, those things is what I was alluding to before is like the suffering that humans can cause. Mm-hmm. Um, that I think it's just coming up for me now, but I think that was part of what was hard of being in the city is 'cause you are confronted with it.

And I didn't wanna shut it down. I, that's not my nature is to like look away. Mm-hmm. Um, but I didn't quite know how to hold it when I was there. And it is a different experience when I go back now. Now I feel like I was just there. Um. Right before I went to Esson actually, um, I stayed in the city overnight and I was, it, it felt, I felt so alive and it was amazing.

And I was like waving to people in the streets and like, like bringing my presence, uh, and my aliveness 'cause I was able to, 'cause I'm able to hold all of it in a much different way now. Worth. It was really, I think it was really weighing on me because I think a survival tactic for a lot of people in cities, um, is to shut down, to like shut out all of the aliveness because it's a lot to hold, it's a lot to hold.

And in nature it's not that it doesn't exist in nature, you know, watch a nature documentary and you'll see plenty of Yeah. Violence, you know? Yes. Um, but you're not, nature is so expansive, you're not confronted with it. But when you pack so much in a city, you know, you can't really escape it. Um, at least that was my ex my experience of it.

Christina: Yeah. I, I think that makes a lot of sense. 'cause you did have a long. Like a long, I feel like a part of your awakening was really embracing the fact that discomfort is just a part of life. Yeah. And to just be able to be through, go through it and mm-hmm.

Um, yeah. It's so interesting.

Becky: What do you, do you attribute anything to your natural ability to just kind of hold it all? Yeah, that's what I was just thinking

Christina: about. I think it's probably my mom.

Mm. Same mom. I think my

Christina: mom. Yeah. I think my mom is, um, she is so good at being with everything.

Mm.

Christina: Being with hardship, being with, um, joyfulness.

She was a nurse growing up when, um, we were kids and when we were younger going in elementary school, she became a night nurse at, um, like an elderly care facility and a nursing home. She was a night nurse at a nursing home, and sometimes she would bring us there during the day. Oh,

Becky: wow.

Christina: Okay.

Yeah, I remember the smell of those places because it's a very different smell that smells like bodies who have been around for a long time. And she would take us in and she wouldn't even, I don't remember her trying to like, protect our feelings or give us any information beforehand.

Mm-hmm.

Christina: She was just like, let's go visit my friends.

Hmm.

Christina: And we would go and sometimes we would walk into a room and there would be a person in a bed and they wouldn't speak, and mom would just talk to them, introduce us to them like it was any other human being.

Hmm.

Christina: Um, yeah, she's a pretty special person in that way, so, um,

Becky: yeah. Such a gift. It's such a gift she gave you.

Christina: Yeah. 'cause it really doesn't, um, I really don't think I gloss over. I think I'm, I'm someone who naturally orients towards light. Mm-hmm. But it's not in, um, it's not in an ignoring a darkness kind of way.

Becky: No.

Christina: Um, Andrew, my husband always tells me that I'm like a, like a brahm symphony. A what Symphony? He's a musician.

He's a musician. And he says that I'm like a Bram Symphony Brams. Where, bro? Yeah. But it, some people might take this as kind of a dig, but it isn't because he was like, you're like a Bram Symphony. You just like, you're always what you are. Like, you like I'll face something that's difficult with him just as quickly as I'll face something that's easeful.

Yep. I was taught that. Yeah, I was taught that mostly by my, mostly by my mom. Um, I, yeah. I don't know. I, the nursing home thing is an interesting thing. I've thought about that a lot because death has never frightened me. We were walking into rooms where people had just passed or were maybe confused. And didn't know how to talk to kids or were very, very much like, oh, I wanna talk to you.

Oh, kids, lemme hug them. And, and it was just sort of like, you know, as kids, you look to your parent to see how do I assess this situation? And it was always just like, we're here. This is Bob. Bob's been here for a while. I, I helped change his bedsheets last night, or whatever. And, you know, just to be in those spaces without much, um, changing in your behavior.

Becky: Yeah. Maybe that was it. I mean, it sounds pretty profound to me. I, um, at Essel and I, I met, uh, a new friend, friend in my group who's young. She's like 29. And she was talking about, uh, being there when her grandfather died and then. Afterwards she started volunteering. She lives in Germany, so it's, uh, I don't know what the equivalent would be here, but she volunteers to just like be with people who are towards the end of their life, you know?

Um, and I just saw such a maturity in her, and I'm not pointing to that one thing, but it really struck something in me. And I've been called for a while to look into being a death doula or like, I think I have the capacity, but because I have, I've had to teach myself, I still feel this hesitation and this, this, um, reaction or this fear.

So I have to like do work knowing that I know how beneficial this will be for me. Like, I'm not even thinking about what I can give to the person dying. Like I'm very selfishly thinking , this would be such a beautiful experience. Because there's, I don't know, it's just such a shame how we treat death and dying in our culture is like something to turn away from.

No. Yeah. 'cause there's so much wisdom. First of all, we're ignoring people who have so much wisdom just because they've been on this planet for so long. And then like death is, the birth and death are the only experiences that are universal among humans. Mm-hmm. Among all beings.

Mm-hmm.

Becky: And yet we shy away from it and we, we don't talk about it.

We don't look at it, we don't bring our kids to it. So like, I mean, what a gift.

Mm.

Becky: Just, it's really

cool.

Becky: It normalizes it and then it's like when you're in, because for me, I think of that as like the ultimate fear that drives a lot of our human behaviors. Yeah. Around. Fear, like that is the, the big one, right.

It's a big unknown. It's, um, and you know, so when you, so that's like, it's like, it feels just so primal. It's like survival or death, you know? And when you don't have a relationship with death or a healthy relationship with death, something that we will all experience, I would imagine that it puts you in like this survival mode more than you need to be.

Christina: Okay. Something just clicked with me actually exactly what we were talking about before. Where if you practice being in the presence of nature, how does that extend into your life mm-hmm. Into your lifetime? Because I was thinking, what does it take to be able to like sit in a room with someone who's dying and feel okay?

Mm-hmm.

Christina: First of all, I think you have to be a grounded person. I think you have to have emotional maturity and just a groundedness about you where you're actually not spending a lot of your energy thinking of what you should be doing because you just feel very comfortable in yourself. I also think, um, I also think that you have to be willing to let your feelings flow through you as soon as they arrive, as well as witness the feelings of others flow through them as soon as they arrive.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: And also I really do think, actually, I've never thought about this this way, but I think practicing being present

mm-hmm.

Christina: Is an incredible way to get there. Mm-hmm. Because that's one thing that I think that my mother has always done very well is, and like, is the quality of any incredible nurse or caregiver Yeah.

Is to be present.

Becky: Yep.

Christina: And so I think practicing presence in general. In your garden or in your whatever, in yourself, in your cold plunge, in your whatever walks things.

Mm-hmm.

Christina: That expands out of you in so many more ways than you realize, like, not only does it help you enter your life from a place in your center every day, but it helps others, like

mm-hmm.

Becky: Yeah. Yeah. Can you imagine being at the end of your life and the people that you love or just anyone is like, afraid to be present with you? Right? Like, or like, I mean this what you, you, when we were talking about the experience of your grandfather

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: And like him just wanting people to be there.

Christina: Hmm.

Becky: And because. He has amazing, you know, he has you and Andrew and all of your very present family members. What a gift. You know, I mean,

Christina: Yeah. Um, so my mom's dad passed away, so this is the, the father who in that generation wasn't as in the home, you know, like her mother raised her more than he did 'cause he was out working. And anyway, um, my grandfather passed away a couple of years ago and he had just an incredible life. Just an incredible life.

Nine kids. One of them was adopted from China in the middle of the nine. Um, and you know, with the nine kids, talk about the life you get to experience go through. Mm-hmm. Um, he had cancer at the end of his life, did some chemo. It went away for a little bit and then it came back. And then he was just like, this is my time, now is my time.

Um, and so then, you know, he and my grandmother made the decision to bring him home. It's like what everyone should aspire to is the way this man died. So he was at home in a bed in his living room. And, , he asked, he, his experience dying was so profound that he just told my grandmother that he wanted all of his grandkids to come.

So he had his kids there. You know, they were all around him taking shifts. When you have nine kids, that's great, right? Yeah. Um, two of them had passed away at that point before him, so he had seven of his kids there and their spouses just attending his

death

Christina: however long it took. And then he said, I, I wanna talk to all my grandkids, so if anybody will come see me, I want them to.

And it was in the middle of COVID. He didn't want people to wear masks because he wanted to be able to see them, which I cannot blame him for. Yeah. But it was at that time where you were afraid you would cause harm to especially elderly people.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: So I reached out to my neighbor who was 80 and her partner, who's also 80, and I said, here's the experience.

Like what do I do? Should we go? Mm-hmm. Do we go? Mm-hmm. And they both said, you go, you gotta go. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So Andrew and I went down and um, and it was just my mom did warn me. She didn't warn us as kids in front of the nursing home, but she warned us this time, come see him. Hopefully you get him in a lucid time.

Sometimes he comes and goes, but just be aware that he cries a lot.

Mm-hmm.

Christina: Which was a really good thing to be aware of. Yeah. Because he is, you know. Not someone,

Becky: these

Christina: like patriarchs do not weep. You know, she was alerting

Becky: you to, to something different than you knew when you were a kid.

Yeah, yeah,

Christina: exactly. So this was like, this man that you've seen as this really strong, you know, man, he's, he's crying a lot. Mm-hmm. And, but again, she wasn't like, she was just like, that's what you need to know. He's crying a lot. Yeah. You go, do you? So we, we went and um, and Andrew is a musician, so he brought his saxophone because grandpa had always asked us, you know, like family parties and stuff.

We would sing songs together and that was something he loved. So he said. If Andrew comes, tell him to bring his horn. So we brought his horn and it was winter and we had newborn twins at the time. And like got my mother-in-law to hang out with him here, drove down to Cape Cod like two and a half hours each way just to sit with him for, I think we sat with him for an hour.

Hmm. And he just told us all these stories of his life. And grandma even said, he repeats a lot of stories, but you probably haven't heard 'em yet. So he just got to, we're like, remember his life through all of these grandchildren and, um, there are a lot of us, I think there might be like 34 grandchildren that they have.

Becky: Wow.

Christina: And he had these like really raw conversations with all of us. He talked about how his, um, faith in God to use his words, was deeper than he ever realized until this moment. Mm. Um, and then Andrew played, so after we talked for like 45 minutes, I think he started to get a little tired and he said, so did you bring your horn?

And Andrew said, yeah, I did. And he unpacked his horn and then stood, I was sitting on a chair next to the bed, and Andrew stood at the end of my grandfather's chair. So he was, he could touch his feet and he played a ballad for him. I forget which one he played. I'll have to think about it. But he played a ballad for him.

And I remember looking at grandpa and he, as soon as he heard these first few notes, his face broke into this. Like, like, I don't think I've ever witnessed someone feel such a pure feeling before. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and his face broke into this like, abundant joyfulness. Met with incredible sadness. Mmm.

And he just closed his eyes. Andrew also had to close his eyes because he wouldn't be able to see him and play at the same time. And he was like, this is what I am doing for, like, I'm here for this man and I will do what I can do for this man. And grandpa just closed his eyes and he laid back and he just let it wash over the whole room.

Mm. It was just one of the most powerful hours of my entire life. Yeah. Um, and he had a couple of experiences like that, but we, you know, he doesn't have a lot of musicians in his family. Certain, certainly not ones that are able to be that present

Yeah. With

Christina: him, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Christina: Um, oh my gosh. Yeah. It was, it was very, very special.

Um, and then we were able to give him a two huge hugs and say goodbye. And we went, drove home.

Hmm.

Christina: Amazing. It's

Becky: just really hitting me. The gift of presence. Yeah. Like how profound the gift of presence is. And we don't have to, it's not just in these, in the extremes of birth and death, you know? Um, we can bring that presence to every moment, but I, I think

Hmm.

Becky: It's in inspire, it's inspiring me to do the work. So it's, when I say do the work, what's hitting me is like, you were gifted this experience when you're very young. So in your nervous system, you were taught like, I can be with death and, and the end of life and be okay because your mom mm-hmm. You regulated with your mom 'cause she was regulated.

True. I never had that experience, so that's why I say I need to teach myself because

mm-hmm.

Becky: Death was kind of this unknown when my grandmother was dying. She had a heart attack when she was, um, when I was nine and I stayed, they left me at home. Like I didn't get to, I haven't said goodbye to, or been there really at the end of any of my grandparents.

So it was kind of like kept at arms length and not, I don't mean in like, it was in like, it's hard to deal with. This is hard stuff. Oh my gosh. So I'm not saying like anyone made mistakes or whatever. This is just my experience of it. So it's like when you're approaching anything new and unknown, my nervous system is like scary, you know?

Mm-hmm. So I have to teach myself because there's such a gift of, of just being present with someone at the end of their life. Yep. Oh, this is, I mean, and it's interesting 'cause I bet if we talked to people about like the gift of being there for the, and being present at the beginning of life

mm-hmm.

Becky: They would talk about how miraculous it is and

mm-hmm.

Becky: Yet we, I think we, we would gain a lot by building that capacity for the end of life as well. Mm-hmm.

Christina: I agree.

Becky: Hmm. Presence, the gift of presence.

Christina: It's

Becky: definitely the title for this episode. Yeah, for sure.

Christina: Music was recorded live as a part of the sound service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina's suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece, is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.

You know, my grandpa passed away, gosh, how many years? Five? Five, maybe years ago. Um, and I have a much closer relationship to my grandmother, who I just visited, and she's coming to me in dreams. Um, she's coming to me in dreams, in the form of like a like an aura. Like a like an Aurora Borealis in the size of her in space. And then I told her about that, that she came to me in a dream and she said, it's so funny, Christina, because that night that you dreamt that. I had the best sleep that I've had since I can remember. And so it's a fascinating thing to just be very conscious of these gifts now in the same relationship of witnessing someone that you love start to deteriorate in their body.

It's an interesting thing.

In this episode of Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time, Becky and Christina catch up after Becky’s retreat at Esalen. We recorded this episode a little earlier in the day, and by the sound of it, you can probably tell Becky is not much of a morning person.

Notes & Links

Esalen Institute: https://www.esalen.org/

To learn more about Human Design, and get your free chart, check out Anne Van de Water, the facilitator of the retreat Becky attended at Esalen: https://annevandewater.com/

Classical Uprising: https://www.classicaluprising.org/

Check out the music of our dear friend from beyond, Hildegard of Bingen…aka Hildi on Spotify.

Episode Transcript

Becky: What a magical day. I just have to say that. Today feels like one of those magical days in general. Like I feel excited and I feel like things are shifting and you have the house to yourself. That's amazing. Um, yeah, today's good. And I am filled up with gratitude for you, my friend, and I can't wait to see what happens.

And then I go to Es, I go to Esalen on Monday. Um, I go into the city on Sunday, and then I leave on Monday. But like, what things are shifting! Feels good. Feels real good.

Welcome to the second episode of Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing And Everything At The Same Time. This week we talked about my retreat at Esalen, growing up going to church, thin spaces. We go back to our favorite Christian mystics and we talk about the very interesting origin story of human design. I hope you enjoy.

Christina: Good morning. Good morning. What a great way to start the day. It feels so nice to just be in conversation , with intention and all conversation is intentional, most conversations that I'm having, especially conversations with you. Mm-hmm. And other closer friends where we go deeper. They all have such intention, but it's really nice to be here.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Speaking intentionally together with the intention of sharing it with other people.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I, especially after last week, have have realized how much I need this in my life and how much, , yeah. I'm so grateful for you and for our conversations and , I want to have more of it, you know?

'cause , it fuels me. Hmm. Do you wanna talk about last week? Sure. We can start there.

Christina: I think it's a nice, I think it's a nice thing because I would be ignoring.

The hunger. I have to listen to your week but yeah. Yeah. I'm interested if you're, if you are wanting to share.

Becky: Yeah. I mean, it does feel very alive and we talked about in the beginning we were gonna kind, lean into what's alive.

So Yeah. It feels like it fits.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: so yeah, last week I was at a retreat in Esalen, which is in Big Sur. Um, and for those listeners who don't know what Esalen is, , it's an institute.

It was, uh, kind of the center of the human potential movement. Um, so Alan Watts spent a lot of time there. , a lot of gestalt work kind of, or originated there. Um. And the land itself is particularly special.

So the Esalen, , indigenous tribe have has used that land for like 10,000 years and it has a natural hot spring and it's right overlooking the, uh, Pacific Ocean. So they would go to that land to heal, and when they couldn't heal, they would bury their dead there. So you feel it when you're on that land, like it is palpable.

So I was just really called to be on that land. Uh, I was there 15 years ago and , I think about it all the time. It was like truly transformative.

Christina: Wait, so 15 years ago, did you do another retreat there?

Becky: Yeah, so my grad school, I went to California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco and my program

mm-hmm. Uh, they do a retreat there every year. So it was like my whole class, , 'cause our Professor Richard turn, uh. He lived there for like 10 years and wrote his book there and , has deep ties to the land. , so that was my first introduction.

So it holds so much. Um, God, it's just a really special place. And thinking about launching, , my offering into the world, I just felt called to go back and re-anchor myself in that land. So I took a class on human design, which, um, I, it was kind of like the, the workshop lined up with my schedule and I was kind of called to it.

Um. But it turns out, as with most things, I was in exactly the right place at the right time. It's exactly the right workshop I needed to be in. Um, and my overall takeaway is kind of in line with what we were talking about last time is around safety. Like that place, I mean, you get delicious organic meals fed to you three times a day.

You know, you're bathing in this, , healing water. You're nourished by the Pacific Ocean, but more importantly, everyone who's there holds a sense of safety. You know, no one is judging you. No one cares what you're doing or what you look like. , and you enter into these conversations where you can just feel like I am not being judged right now.

And I think when you have that. , container of safety, so much growth can happen.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And we've talked about this, , you've shown me this, you know, and it was really beautiful to, to experience that. You showed me what safety feels like, right?

Just being in your presence. I could co-regulate my body being in your presence, and so I've learned to regulate my nervous system and now I could go to Lin and I watched how I could be the regulated person in the room, the safety in the room, and allow others to feel what that feels like.

And then teach them like, here's how I'm doing it. , I would be in a share. 'cause we would do like these group shares, you know, which are always so powerful. And I would have these things that wanted to come through me and I would feel my heart racing. I would feel sweaty all over my body. Like I even got an a Apple watch notification that like, your heart rate is 120, but it looks like you're not doing anything.

Um, but I was able to share that and say, you know, I'm feeling this, but luckily I know how to regulate my nervous system, so I'm gonna breathe. I'm going to go slow and I'm going to share this because this is telling me this needs to be shared. Um, there was this other really, um, lovely, , man that I had really deep conversations with.

He was kind of struggling with the same thing of like being seen and um, you know, feeling like. Maybe what you're sharing isn't like I've, I've dealt with a lot of rejection in the past of like feeling like I share something and it just kind of isn't wanted. Mm-hmm. Um, and having that feeling of rejection, which triggers the stress response, it triggers that, , physiological sensations in the body and he was kind of feeling the same thing.

And then in another share later I watched him, he was like, oh, my heart's racing. Like he was sharing that same thing, but he, he still kept going and still shared. Um, and then to take it even further on the last day I had a conversation with him and he was asking me how to like, be there for one of his friends, , who he was feeling like his friend.

. Couldn't, , give love to herself, like she didn't appreciate herself. I was like, look, the best thing you can do is show up. And this is new for you, right? You're nervous about this. You're, you're stretching, you're growing, you're stepping out of your comfort zone. So the best thing you can do is check in with your heart, you know, check in with your nervous system and breathe and , show her safety and show her , what it feels like in the system to have your nervous system get activated.

'cause you're doing something new, but you can do it anyway. So,

Christina: yeah. I'm curious, I'm curious how, um, 'cause you, you've told me this a couple of times where I have shown you safety. Can you illuminate that for me a little bit more? How can one person. In your life, do that? How did I do that? Because I honestly don't know.

Becky: You just did it by being yourself to be honest. Yeah. Right. So it's

Christina: helpful for me to actually understand what it is about my presence and um, you often help me, you hold a mirror to me in a really beautiful way so that I can understand what I have innately mm-hmm.

In myself that can be used to benefit others. So once you help me understand what it is that I unconsciously did, I can try my best to consciously do it more, you

Speaker 4: know?

Becky: Yeah. My understanding at this point is we were designed to co-regulate with others. So I know we kind of touched on this a little bit last time too. Clearly this is a big theme, which mm-hmm.

Because I think a lot of people feel unsafe. And I think to do this work of growth, of looking inward, of, , remembering who you always were of awakening, you have to feel safe. Because it's new, you know? So I think safety might come up a lot. Um, but my understanding is we are designed to co-regulate together.

So the example I'm pretty sure I used last time is like, when you think of a baby and a baby's crying Yeah. And the baby is held close to the body. So we have an energetic field about, you know, three feet around us. That's emanated from the heart, right? Mm-hmm. That is the, your electromagnetic field, similar to the earth, has an electromagnetic magnetic field.

I would, I make the leap that that is your aura. That is your energetic, , field. And so when you, when you hold a baby close, that baby's in your field. So whatever you're feeling, whatever's, you know, moving through your field, there's a, um, there's a resonance.

Mm. Yeah. So whatever

you have in your field, the other person is kind of resonating with that. So, and I just learned recently that, , your nervous system starts to develop in the womb. It's like in the second trimester. So you're already being programmed by the, the pregnant, person's nervous system that's being, you know, programmed in, into you.

So

I get triggered by, I used to, or no, I, I some, and sometimes still do get triggered by being seen because I didn't. Necessarily feel very seen or heard when I was a child. And a lot of this stuff is programmed when you're very young, right? So for me to be seen now is new and novel to my nervous system. So my brain interprets that as like, this is new, this is unfamiliar territory, this is scary.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so regulation is like, okay, breathe. I can let this move through me instead of it getting stuck. 'cause a lot of times we interpret those sensations, those fear responses as a threat, and then we get stuck in a story.

So bringing it back to you specifically. Um, I feel very seen by you. You know, you, you see people very clearly, and I think that comes from you feeling safe and you were seen as a child. So it feels very natural to you to be very present. I also think you can't really see someone if you're not present.

That's a good point. Yeah. Um, so here are you beautiful being of Christina who's seeing me very present and my nervous system is like, danger, danger, danger. But my more advanced brain is like, no, this is what I want. Right? So I just had to learn. And at first it wasn't necessarily conscious.

I mean, I had a meditation practice and you know, I had had experiences like going to Esalen 15 years ago of like, this is what it feels like to feel deeply seen. But I was kind of out a practice when I met you. I'd kind of fallen out of a lot of my practices. Um, so honestly, yeah, just being around you and being seen and being around someone who's very present.

Christina: That's so nice. As you're talking about that, it's reminding me of all of these different people in my life, true long-term friendships where there has been a moment in many of them. Where they sort of decide to consciously take down the walls that they put up for other people. And one person, one very close friend even told me, Christina, I feel like you see through me.

I don't know what to do. And, and I think that felt really confronting to this person. And I was just like, all I'm doing, I'm just being your friend. I'm just accepting you for who you are and not putting my stuff on you. And I, I'm sorry if that's difficult. And it's funny because I think that most people, um, don't receive this type of.

Presence and generosity of spirit perhaps. And also, um, a willingness to engage in, in difficult realness, you know? Yeah. My parents gave me that gift because, , uh, yeah, I never felt like I couldn't be forthcoming with what was alive in me and what was honest, even if it felt like it disagreed with them.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Um, so yeah, and it also from my perspective, sometimes confounds me that people just can't all be this raw because it's just, it's not a hard thing for me to do. And sometimes I might walk around and think. And be able to see all of these masks and walls that people are wearing. And I just wonder why not just take them off?

It's so easy, but it's not so easy. It's scary. Yeah. It's so scary. It's so

Becky: scary. The more I do this work, the more I realize you can't logic your way around it.

You have to practice it. You have to practice teaching your body in little doses that feel safe. Mm-hmm. Um. That we can do this. And that's why cold plunging was such a powerful practice for me personally. Mm-hmm. Because I'm, I was literally teaching my body like I can be in discomfort. Mm-hmm. Like you gasp for air.

And then you breathe and you teach your body.

Like, no, we're not gonna die. We're fine. You know, and you teach your body over and over and over again, and then when the stress of being deeply seen comes up, you're like, no, I can breathe and this is amazing. I can be loved and I can, , feel seen and I can, I can be present. You know, I don't have to, um, go to the future and anticipate what I'm gonna say next because I'm so nervous about silence, you know?

Or like, I'm so scared of what you're gonna think of me. So I'm gonna go to the future and I'm gonna rehearse all these things I'm gonna say instead of just being present. Because when I'm doing that, I've just missed everything you've said, you know? Mm-hmm. And then you don't have reciprocity and the other person feels it.

Christina: Oh yeah. Very much so. isn't it funny how when you get to this beautiful early midlife, you have so much clarity because all of these things that you've been practicing to save yourself, all of a sudden you're just ready to let them fall away and really show up as who you've always come here to be.

And for me, watching a world of people who had all of these boundaries and masks and walls set up for themselves to keep them safe, keep them safe, you know, what they told themselves would be safe. Um, that was so confounding to me. And so for a while I would sort of try to figure out maybe I need to do that.

Do I need to do that a little bit? It kind of goes back to, to maybe me feeling like I couldn't actually be as bright as I am.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Because. It wasn't something that I saw. And we are social creatures, right? Yeah. So if I, even as someone who feels extremely grounded in myself, I still couldn't recognize anybody else who was really like me.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: And so I thought, oh, maybe actually it's more hurtful for people if I shine as brightly as possible. It's such a backwards thought, but it really feels like that was, that was what? That was what I thought, that I might actually do harm to others by being bright and different.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: That's why I ask you in this situation to help me understand how I helped you find safety in your nervous system, because yeah, that gives my authentic expression so much more power.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Because anytime that I have consciously reached out to someone that I knew was hurting, and I've just faced their darkest parts mm-hmm. With my full self generously, it's always the most beautiful response ever. Mm-hmm. Because I think when we're wearing masks all the time and thinking about what we're gonna say next in the conversation, we really, you're right, we really aren't present.

Mm-hmm. And if I can be present in anything you are offering me in this moment

Becky: mm-hmm.

Christina: That's what I can do.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Because if you say something really scary and dark and vulnerable, I'm still here in the same Christina as if you're saying something really joyful.

Becky: Yep.

Christina: Yeah. And that's what my parents always did with, with my sisters and I, and whew, I am learning more and more every day that that is a real superpower.

Becky: It really is. Because then you're free. Mm-hmm. Because then no matter what life presents you, whether in, you know, you're the people you care about in their life and you're able to be present for them or whatever comes in your life, like, you are able to face that and be with that yeah. With your full presence.

And when you're fully present, you're also making better choices. You know, you're not making choices from like a fear response.

Christina: So I wonder also if people know what human design is, because if I didn't know you, I would not, so I wonder if it makes sense to talk, like, , what is human design?

Yeah. I It doesn't it come, isn't it a combination of, , astrology and like ancient eastern wisdom from the etching?

Becky: Yes. It's, um, I get a little, little squirmy around the origin story. Um. So let's all hold this lightly. Um, you know, use the tools that work for you and resonate.

You don't have to buy into the whole story of it. Okay. Let's just start there. Okay. So, um, it was channeled, , by a man, um, I forget his name. , he had this experience where he like entered into his house and there was this blinding light and his dog passed out and just was unconscious for like eight days.

And then he would hear this voice. Apparently it was like this voice of a. Like chain smoking, 80-year-old woman that was like coming to him and wanting to speak to him. And , when he denied listening to her, he was in incredible pain. And when he finally listened to her, um, I don't think I'm doing much for human design here.

I should have probably skipped the origin story, but whatever. It's kind of fun. Um, so anyway, channeled it for eight days, wrote down this whole technology around, , um, essentially how to understand ourselves is what it is, and it a new way of understanding ourselves. And yeah, it's kind of a synthesis or a combining of, Western astrology, the Vedic astrologies, the ing, um, the Kabbalah and the Tree of Life, what we know of quantum physics.

I think that's all. . So he like this founder who ended up changing his name to like raw hoo hoo hoo or raw. I don't mean disrespect for anyone who like loves this origin story. If it works for you, use it. Um, I just try and hold it really lightly this is the perspective I was taking \ to keep me in healthy skepticism and not in mocking.

When I was in this class and she was telling us this origin story, um, all of our major religions were technically channeled. So like, what's the difference? The difference is time, right? And how many people follow it. That's really the only difference. , so yeah, keep an open mind.

Things can change. We can get new down downloads, new channels. So I had been exposed to human design before, so this was like deepening my knowledge of it, and I find it really, really helpful. So it's based on your date of birth, um, time. You have to know date of birth, time and location. And then it will give you this chart. It's very complex.

You can go deep, it can tell you everything about every aspect of your life, but really it's like the top three things that you would learn from human design is your type. Your strategy and your authority. So my type is I'm a projector, which projectors are meant to be guides and, uh, yeah, that tracks okay.

Check, um, projectors don't have access to consistent energy, yeah. Check. I need my rest, you know? Um, whereas you are a generator, mm-hmm. Yeah. So you have access to all like generators and manifesting generators run the world. Mm-hmm. Because you have just so much energy, you're like the engine of the world, but you need the projectors to help guide you because projectors can sense when.

Others aren't using their energy efficiently. 'cause we are experts at it. I am an expert at using my energy efficiently. I can get more done in an hour than most people can get done in three days. Um, and then I rest for the rest of those three days. But I felt like, I really felt it, like, it was interesting because as each person from this group was departing on the last day of the, the retreat, I felt in my body, every generator leave.

'cause I was the only projector. So I was surrounded by all this generator energy and I was like, I felt them leaving. I felt like I had been feeding off their energy 'cause a projector. So we have guidance, we have wisdom, but we have to be invited. So that's your strategy. My strategy is to be invited,.

Um, and when I'm invited, , I get energy. That's how I get my energy and that's where the rejection came from. In, in retrospect of like all these times , I saw something and I tried to tell the person, but they didn't ask me, they didn't invite me. So I was telling them something that , they weren't wanting and I felt rejected.

So learning that, you know, he helps me to understand when I should give advice and when I shouldn't. So that's what I like about human design is it's very practical and you can play with it on your own and you can experiment. And there's something about just like having something outside of yourself telling me this is the way you're designed and it's resonating with how I feel.

So it's it, it for me gives me so much permission to just be myself, be this authentic self that I feel, so the authority is still coming from me saying, this resonates and this is a blueprint that sounds like me, but it gives you language and it gives you, you know, a framework to kind of play within.

Christina: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And it also reminds me that, once you feel like you are stepping into living really authentically, a lot of times, for me anyway, once I just really embraced myself fully, this sort of spotted dotted lit path. Back to like the beginning of Christina illuminated in my brain and all of these different things, like all of these things that I was doing in high school, like I was listening to 1930s, jazz and writing plays when my friends were at parties, that was not normal, you know?

Or different things. Different things like this. All these little dotted lines, things that I, that I gleaned from certain books that no one else tended towards. Mm-hmm. Phrases that I recall. All of these things, you could get this information from anywhere, movies that you watch, things that you really love.

Mm-hmm. All of a sudden it starts to weave into this beautiful tapestry that is you.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And your only job is to accept that and step into it fully.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And it sounds so simple because it's so simple. Um,

Becky: it is so simple. If you give yourself permission or like, 'cause a lot of people are indoctrinated into this is the way, you know, through, I know, through religion, through, you know, social conditioning.

Um, so it's very simple once you strip away what's getting in the way. Oh, very much so. Mm-hmm. Yes. And you and I, I feel like we're very blessed in that I had zero indoctrination into any religion. And from what I've heard from, from you, you had religion, you had church, but it was held in a very different way.

I don't know if you wanna speak to like what your experience was.

Christina: Yeah, yeah, sure. My parents both grew up going to church. My mom grew up in a family of nine, so they were Catholic and they, um, she grew up going to church every Sunday. And my father grew up Episcopalian Episcopal. I don't actually know which one's correct.

I've heard them say both Episcopal, they went to an Episcopal church and then when they got married, my mom did whatever you have to do to like, say bye to Catholicism and hello to Episcopal Alienness. I think that's all you have to do. Hello?

So then we went to Episcopal churches and I remember hating the routine of having to do that. We also moved a lot growing up. And one thing that they would do, because this is what they had in their childhoods, was find a church as a community.

Mm-hmm. And so talking to them now as an adult, they said that sometimes they would go to these churches, this is how cool my parents are. They would go to these churches and instead of just saying, okay, this checks the box of an Episcopal church, that's what we believe, we're gonna go there, they would walk in, check the vibe.

If it didn't align with who they were, they would find something else. Yes. And that's how we ended up at a Unity Church, which I don't know if that's actually. Unitarian Universalists, or I, I think it's actually different. It was called Unity. Um, I was in, I was in a youth group.

It was when I was in, um, middle school into high school. And we would do things like go on youth retreats and do eating meditations where we would eat as slowly as possible and like feel the sensations in our body and like really check in into ourselves. And, um, a lot of singing, which was always my favorite part of church.

They did meditations in, , the services. So I had a very varied experience with religions. I also, you know, I was like, um, when we went to Episcopal churches, I remember . Snuffing candles out on the altars and having to stand quietly. I loved Snuffing the candles. That was like my favorite part.

Snuffing the candles and singing, which really tracks still. Yeah. But, uh, um, it felt sort of just more like a routine that we did and I hated having to do it until we went to Unity, which felt like a much more generous place. And meditating always felt more like a home for me than, than being told what to pray and how to pray.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Um, and yeah. , and then eventually we got to choose to attend or not. I chose not to mostly just 'cause I was in school and wanted the time out of school. Mm-hmm. I think. But I, you know, at 39 now, I've come home to a lot of these age old practices, , on my own and. I think I've been living a life of prayer without calling it that for a really long time.

Becky: Yeah. And

Christina: for me, that looks like being in my garden.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Um, I listened to an on being podcast with a, I think he was a Catholic priest, Eugene something or other was his name. And he talked about how he, he prays so often, oftentimes he doesn't even realize he's praying, and that's when he finds success in it.

Mm-hmm. And that made me tear up when he said that, because I know exactly what he means.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Um, so yeah, that was, I wouldn't say that I was really heavily indoctrinated, but I certainly was made to go to places and listen. But I was sort of like off in my own world most of the time anyway.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: And I was allowed to be.

Becky: Mm-hmm. And I think I feel called to make it clear that I am not anti-religion. I think it has such a beautiful, it can have such a beautiful place. , and I think it's really sad the way it's been manipulated and, um, used for power because ,

it's hard to find community. So religion has, or the church is an important, um, facet of being social creatures, like you mentioned before.

Yeah,

it's just, you have to find the right one. And you have to listen to yourself and you have to do what your parents did. What's the vibe like? Check the vibe first if it doesn't the vibe. Yeah. And trust your, that's trusting yourself. I think that is the shift that I hope we're moving into. And I see evidence that we are is shifting away from there is an authority outside of yourself.

Yes. To you are the authority. And that human design does, uh, promote that. It's very much in alignment with that.

That is the whole point is you are designed this specific way and you are the authority, even if society is telling you otherwise, like the conditioning gets in the way of you living how you were designed. And that conditioning is not real. It's, well, I don't wanna say that it feels very real, but it doesn't have authority over you or it doesn't need to.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's exactly why it never really landed to me, church, never really felt like a home to me. 'cause I didn't, I didn't really understand why everyone would be thinking that what this one person said

was what we should all believe.

Becky: Hmm.

Yeah.

I mean, I. I mean, we, we are wired for belonging. So we, , are desperate to like, find a common language and a, you know, something to make us feel that like we belonged. And I love the teachings of Jesus. Jesus was rad. I mean, for sure the more I return back

Christina: to Jesus, I'm like, yeah, yeah.

I want to live as like, you know, I hear, I hear people who in my, in my circle, who are very, um, into Jesus. Mm-hmm. You know, walking the path of, um, being in service of

Becky: mm-hmm.

Christina: Jesus. Mm-hmm. And letting him, the way that oftentimes these people will explain it is letting him. Tell them what to do. Like they are a servant of Jesus.

And I didn't really, I didn't like that personally. And now I also, I can reframe it to myself and say like, live as if you are Jesus.

Becky: Mm.

Christina: Yeah. Live with that compassionate heart where you believe that everyone is equal, everyone is deserving of the same life and to care for all beings in that way.

And so to when I frame it like that, then it makes sense to me.

Becky: Yeah. And there is a, um.

There are plenty of people who understand the teachings of Christianity as it's Christ consciousness.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The whole Christ consciousness thing, I think naturally turns back to Hildegard von Bingham. because. , I think Matthew Fox, he talks about a cosmic Christ. And I, and I don't know if that's the same as Christ Consciousness, maybe it, it, the Venn diagram overlaps in a very big way there. But, you know, Hildegard von Bingham was this Christian mystic of the 11th century.

And I talked about this before on our first episode, but she's been really coming to me in a big way I'm in. Hildegard

Becky: has entered the chat.

Christina: I love it. Hildegard has entered the chat.

She arrived and this is coming from Christina, who is not necessarily like really hunky dory about western Christianity. So for her to kind of pop into my consciousness was, I love that you're speaking yourself in the third person now. I'm just trying to frame it, it was strange. It was strange for this.

Yeah.

Becky: Um, it's out of character for you. Very out character or past, past Christina.

Christina: Yeah, but current Christina was like, Hey, Hildy, hey, what do you have to say to me? What do you have

to teach me?

And she was so loud about it that I kind of had no, that hildy,

She, yeah.

And, and bright. And I was like, I'm just observing this experience and I will not try to make meaning of it. I'm gonna approach this with a curious heart. And essentially I was in the studio where I am sitting right now. Uh, very short synopsis of this is we have an old farmhouse, took down a very old barn and erected a new one that I'm sitting in.

And it's my dream space and it's also turns out my thin space. And people come in and feel the thinness of this space.

Becky: Can you speak more about what a thin space is, or do you think it would derail? Yeah,

Christina: no, it's okay. A thin space is something that my very Christian sister taught me. Mm. So again, things are overlapping in a beautiful way.

Mm-hmm. And a thin space is, I would describe it as a space where the, , veil between what is material and what is other worldly, heavenly universal is very thin.

So

I feel connected to all things in a way that, um, I never have. And it always happens when I'm in here.

Becky: Mm.

Christina: And other people have felt it.

One person walked through and said, I don't know whether I should sing or whisper.

Becky: Yeah. And

Christina: that has been a way that I could also describe a thin, a thinness. Um, so I'm in here on this very remarkable day where I didn't have much in here yet. I hadn't fully moved in and I decided to receive slow time.

Becky: Hmm. In

Christina: a way that my whole life I think I'd been wanting to, or I should say my whole adult life, I'd been wanting to, but you know, you need to be busy, busy, busy. And I thought, no, I, I have, I have this beautiful room and the light moves throughout the day and that is on purpose. All these windows and the light moves in one, in the springtime, which is when I was in here at this time last year, moves from the ceiling to the floor.

And I sat down in front of it and I watched it. Mm-hmm. And I don't know how I had found Hildegard von Bing's music, but I did. And I listened to it while doing that.

Hmm.

So no clue how she arrived into my ears in that way, but I found her somehow. And it was, it was, it felt, it felt like I made my own church in a way.

Hmm. Yeah. And her music was so resonant. And then, um, I listened to her for like the, the weeks following. And that whole couple of hours where I gave myself the time to just watch this light move down the wall felt transformative and transcendent at the same time. And her soundtrack was so perfect for it.

And then I have a friend who is a conductor who brings classical music to the everyday person here in Maine. And her name is Emily Isaacson and her company is called Classical Uprising. And they do a lot of different performances that try to bring classical music to the people like, like it did at the time that it was really coming about.

So it wasn't all these big music calls where you had to buy tickets and go, it was, it was like you could go to a salon where you would go into a Duke's parlor after a fancy dinner and the musicians would be on the ground that you were standing on and you'd be drinking beer together and you'd hear a trio performing.

And she emailed me out of the blue, did not know I'd been watching light and listening to Hildegard von Bing and her email said, Hey. I wondered, we have this small trio of singers who perform Hildegard Bon Bacon's music, and I thought that it might be really beautiful to do it in your studio. Would you ever want that?

And I was just like, oh, hold on. Let me pick my jaw off the floor. This is, I, I had like full body chills. And so that alone felt incredible. And Hildegard was like, Christina, I gotta come to your thin space again. But this time through the voices of three people mm-hmm. And we, we decided to build these curved walls on one side of the room for the purpose of having two distinct spaces in one room.

And also for the purposes of moving sound. Because I'm an artist. Yes. But music and sound is integral to my practice and my way of being. And I always thought it would be really lovely to have performances in here and. So I said, yes, please come over tomorrow. And she did. And we talked about what this would look like and the whole idea was that my work would be suspended in the space while we invited a small group of people to come and hear these three singers, sing Hildegard von Bing's work while projecting her illuminations.

So her, her artwork, her visions of the living light, , on the wall. So the night after Emily came, I was going on like a little two night retreat in a cabin in the woods that I do often throughout the year for my own quiet and contemplation. And I decided to sort of sit with that. Emily had just left.

It felt like something I really wanted to do. I was just like, okay, I'm gonna go. And I, I didn't answer, I didn't rush answer and I just went and sat with it. And I got to this cabin and one of the first things I did was sit on the couch and meditate. And I woke up, came back into the room with the sound of rain on the roof.

Mm.

And a text from my mother-in-law who was like, I don't know why, but this video really just reminded me of you. And it was this whole video of Hildegard von Benin's music.

Becky: Oh my God.

Christina: And I was like, yeah, totally. And then I said, wait, did I not tell you about Hildegard Fond Pink? And she was like, no, what are you talking about?

So I'd never spoken her name to my mother-in-law. She just saw this thing about a woman who wrote these incredibly haunting, sort of angelic pieces of music that were sung by women. She was this, uh, like natural path writer. Um, she wrote plays and had visions of the Living Light and artists. She was just this Jill of all trades, you know?

Mm-hmm. And I think that was maybe why my mother-in-law was reminded of her and sent it to me. So then I, I was like, I hear, I hear you loud and clear, Hildy, you gotta come into my studio. So then we did the performance here. Um, I kept reading more about her and the more that I read about her, the more aligned it felt.

And there was even the final time, the most recent time was when I was in a window seat in a plane. And I was listening to a podcast about her after listening to a lot of her music that this was shortly after the performance in here. And I looked out and they were talking about her visions of the living light, which one could argue I also have.

And I looked out and there was this rainbow burst of light at the end of the wing tip.

Mm.

And I, again, like these things are so powerful when they happen, my whole body is energized and I get like full body tingles and my eyes well up with tears and Mm. She's, she is with me for sure. And actually, I was actually with a friend whose husband is a pilot and I showed him this picture and I was like, you must see this all the time, right?

Mm-hmm. And he said, no. Oh, ugh. So I wasn't even trying necessarily to disprove the magic of this experience. But when I looked out of the window and I'm always looking out of windows and airplanes and I saw this thing, I really felt her here.

Hmm.

Um, and I think she's sort of just hanging out. Maybe she's been around this whole time for me, just waiting for me to hear her.

I don't know. But I'm definitely on the same frequency now as Hildegard von Bing, and she is a helpful voice in my ears.

Yeah.

A

Becky: guide. Does she feel like your guide,

Christina: I wonder, I wonder a little bit if that's what she is and if,

Becky: well, does it feel like that to you? Like what does it feel like to you?

Christina: Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good question because I hear people talk about their guides. I don't know who my guides are, but it, I do, I do pretty effortlessly find an illuminated path backwards that she probably was a part of. So I think that's probably what she is. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I think about the reiki experience I had where the whole room filled with light and it was coming from me.

And that was the moment I realized my work here is to be a beacon and this vibrant person.

Mm-hmm.

And I wonder if Hildegard was the one who like gave me that big nudge, you know? And she knew. Yeah. I don't know, but she is, um, we are in conversation. Yeah. And I think we are cut from the same cloth for sure.

Mm-hmm.

And she had a very. Loud voice at a time when people weren't listening to women.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: And she also was deeply in touch with the natural world.

Mm-hmm.

Despite so many things going against her in, in that way.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Becky: So the first thing I wanted to say was, I really appreciate, , how you hold things like this and it resonates with me. So like, even asking you the question of is she or guide, you know, I see this like hesitation because there are a lot of people who hold things like spirit guides or,

angels. And they, they hold them in a very, like, solid, concrete way. And it is hard being human. Whatever you need to do to get through the day is yeah, fine by me. For my own life. I have a resistance to that. And I like to hold things. Anything that's in the space of the unknown, I like to hold lightly.

And like, this works for me. This is the language that resonates. Everything we're trying to talk about in this podcast is beyond language.

Mm-hmm.

And so holding it very lightly and using the best language you can, it, it feels very open and welcoming.

Christina: Yeah. And I also, um, I think for me it's the same reason that I never had the strong urge to call my deep inner knowing something else because it's something that I know.

Mm-hmm. And that's all that I need to realize about it, I think. Yeah. And yes, I can say with certainty that Hildegard v Dinkin and I are in conversation even though she's long gone, but I don't feel the need to make her any more massive than that, you know, or give her, um. Yeah. I find that I, well, authority

Becky: is coming up for me. It's like you're not giving away your authority to her and like saying she is this entity outside of yourself. You know, I think some might point to, you know, , were you her in a past life or like, you know, is, and I,

this is where it gets really hard to talk about, but like the non-material, this is my perspective, people listening, try it on. If it doesn't fit, throw it away.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: The non-material world for me is a, we'll call it a realm. Um, although it's out of space and time so realm is the best language I have. I don't know where it, you know, where does non-space non-time exist?

I don't know. But in this realm, we'll call it, there is no separation. So. Right. You are hilde you are, I'm gonna call her Hilde. Yeah. You and Hilde are one. So are you accessing hilde or are you accessing a part of you that is connected to the one where there is no separation and she's just coming through in , that form?

Because that individual being of Hilde, when, when she was on planet Earth left a. Left an imprint that can give you language so that those parts of you can speak to you. I don't know. Yeah. Like that's kind of how I try and hold it, is like, 'cause then your authority stays within you.

Christina: Yes,

Becky: I am always looking for practices and languages that keep me in this deep knowing that I have, that the separation between me and everything else is an illusion. So how can I stay in that energy of , non-duality, non-separation? ,

Christina: yeah. I, , this is the same, the same reason that I never really identified with formal church.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Um, I have always felt an extremely distinct center in myself.

And that was something that I had to, um, battle as selfishness. I worried as like a younger person that that was selfishness.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And it isn't what it is, is a center that I am at home in. And I didn't see many other examples of that. So I think I, I always confounded me, but. I think the way that you describe it feels really right in the way that I also feel it.

Um, yeah, because I don't think she has authority over me. I just, I'm, I just feel like I'm kind of hanging out with her a little bit and mm-hmm. And, and maybe I was her, maybe she, we are me, you know? I don't know. , when you also talked, what that time that you came out of the sauna and had that whole like thing that you channeled through, you talked about living as mystery. Oh, living as mystery was like a very potent message. And so I think. By becoming whole, we are remembering how to live as mystery.

Becky: Mm.

Christina: And that kept coming up for me. Like I keep feeling like the immensity of realizing that we are to become the mystery to rere. Remember how to live as mystery and not as certainty. And it's what cold plunging has done. It's what twins have offered me.

It's what my sister Lauren does with Jesus. She is just always ready to pivot because this is all we know is that there's always change.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina's suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.

Becky: So this ended up being the message that I had to share with you and I love you. I can't feel my fingers anymore because I don't have gloves on. Um, but I love you so much and I love the miracles of life, and I love my design highs and lows alike.

The title of this episode comes from Buddhist doctrine signifying that the Buddha's teachings and practices are tools—like a finger—that direct people toward enlightenment or the true nature of reality, symbolized by the moon. The core message is to not mistake the finger (the teachings, concepts, or even the teacher) for the moon (the ultimate truth or enlightened mind), as focusing solely on the finger leads to a misunderstanding of the goal itself.

If you want to check out the Telepathy Tapes, which we recommend, you can find them at: https://thetelepathytapes.com/

If you want to learn more about the teachings of Matthew Fox and the Christian Mystics, check out: https://www.matthewfox.org/

If you want to read more about non-locality, check out this article in Scientific American: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/

To watch the video of this episode, and see the rainbow on Christina's face, head over to our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@NoticingPod

And if you want to learn more about Christina and Becky, check out our websites!

https://www.christinawatka.com/

https://www.beckydecicco.com/