Explore every episode of the podcast More Than Counts
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| 024 Jason Larkins - What it Really Takes to Run a Cheer Gym | 03 Aug 2026 | 00:47:24 | |
Most people know Jason Larkins from his podcast, social media, or years of coaching championship teams. But behind the routines and the highlights is another role that often goes unseen: gym director. In this episode, Jason shares how he accidentally found cheerleading, the journey that led him from athlete to coach, and eventually to leading a successful all-star program. We dive into what really happens during team placements, why some of the hardest coaching decisions happen long before athletes ever step onto the floor, and the leadership lessons he's learned after more than two decades in the sport. We also watch two of American Cheer's routines from last season, breaking down the strategy behind their choreography, creativity, and scoring decisions while discussing how routines evolve throughout the season. Whether you're a coach, gym owner, athlete, or parent, this conversation offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at the decisions that shape a program long before competition day. Takeaways
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| 023 Judge Mimi - You Asked. I Answered. (And Reviewed Your Routines.) | 27 Jul 2026 | 01:10:24 | |
What catches a judge's eye in the first 15 seconds of a routine? What separates winning programs from everyone else? And what would I change if I had one chance to help your team score higher? In this special solo episode of More Than Counts, I'm answering your questions about judging, coaching, business, social media, and balancing life as a mom while traveling the world as an international cheer judge. Along the way, I review listener-submitted routines from around the world, sharing one thing each team does exceptionally well and one area I'd focus on to maximize their scores. Whether you're a coach looking for fresh ideas, an athlete curious about what judges really notice, or someone who simply loves the sport, this episode is packed with practical insights you can bring back to the gym. Chapters:
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| 022 Kelvin Lam - What Elite Stunt Coaches See That You Don't | 20 Jul 2026 | 01:09:06 | |
Kelvin Lam has spent decades asking a simple question: why do great stunts actually work? From his early days at the University of Hawaii to Team USA and becoming one of the most respected stunt educators in the sport, Kelvin has built a reputation for challenging conventional wisdom and helping coaches see stunting through a different lens. In this episode, we dive into the fundamentals that make stunts stronger, safer, and more efficient, while unpacking some of the biggest myths that have been passed down through generations of cheerleading. We also watch routines together, breaking down what elite coaches notice in real time and why seemingly small technical decisions can have a lasting impact on an athlete's development. Whether you're coaching Level 1 athletes or building Worlds-level routines, this conversation will change the way you think about progressions, technique, and the future of stunt coaching. Takeaways
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| 021 Jake Chester - What Makes Cheer Dance Actually Score | 13 Jul 2026 | 00:53:36 | |
What makes a dance score? Is it more movement? More difficulty? Or is it something else entirely? In this episode of More Than Counts, Judge Mimi sits down with choreographer and coach Jake to explore one of the most debated parts of a routine: dance. Together, they unpack what makes choreography memorable, why readability matters just as much as difficulty, and how seamless transitions, musicality, and visual design can elevate a routine. Jake also shares how an unexpected background in marching band shaped his choreography philosophy, what he's learned coaching athletes from Level 2 through Level 6, and why creating routines that fit the team will always outperform trying to force complexity. As always, they put theory into practice—breaking down routines from Cheer Athletics' Ocelots, a developing 4.2 team, and a listener-submitted routine, discussing pacing, formations, cleaning, recovery, and the small details that can make a big difference on the scoresheet. Whether you're a coach, choreographer, athlete, or simply love the creative side of cheerleading, this episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at what judges actually see—and what makes great choreography stand out. Takeaways
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| 020 John Newby - Can You Make a Living as a Professional Cheerleader? | 06 Jul 2026 | 00:36:28 | |
Professional cheerleading is no longer just an idea—it's becoming a reality. In this episode, Judge Mimi sits down with John Newby, Commissioner of the Professional Cheer League (PCL) and EVP of Varsity International, for a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to build a professional league from the ground up. They discuss the vision behind the PCL, why the league is moving to a head-to-head format, what new games are coming in Season 2, and how the league is creating more opportunities for athletes to shine. John also shares how athlete compensation works, the challenges of bringing international athletes into the league, and what still needs to happen before professional cheer becomes a full-time career path. To wrap up the conversation, John and Judge Mimi watch one of his favorite PCL routines together, breaking down the moments that made it unforgettable and what fans might have missed. Whether you're an athlete dreaming of competing professionally, a coach following the evolution of the sport, or simply curious about where cheerleading is headed, this episode offers an inside look at the decisions shaping its future. Takeaways
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| 019 Kaden Koz - The Details That Separate Good Routines From Great Ones | 29 Jun 2026 | 00:48:43 | |
From becoming a self-proclaimed "gym rat" chasing standing tucks to competing with GymTyme Chrome at Worlds and building some of Virginia's most recognizable themed routines, Kaden Koz has seen cheerleading from nearly every angle. In this episode, we dive into the creative side of choreography: what actually makes a routine memorable, how themed routines come to life, and why crowd engagement matters just as much as difficulty. Kaden also shares the incredible story of the overnight changes GymTyme Chrome made between Day 1 and Finals at Worlds, offering a rare look at the strategy, decision-making, and trust that go into chasing a championship. As always, we wrap up by reviewing a listener-submitted routine, breaking down the details that elevate great performances. Whether you're an athlete, coach, choreographer, or simply love the sport, this conversation is packed with practical insights and behind-the-scenes stories that remind us great routines are built long before they ever take the floor. Takeaways
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| 018 Chris Cox - Building Moments, Not Just Routines | 22 Jun 2026 | 00:36:07 | |
Chris Cox didn't set out to become a choreographer. He simply fell in love with the creative side of cheerleading and never stopped chasing it. In this episode, Chris shares his journey from athlete, to coach, to building one of the industry's most respected choreography brands. We dive into what makes a routine memorable, how movement and formations can create powerful visual moments, and why great choreography is about more than just checking boxes on a score sheet. Along the way, we break down two standout routines—Desert Elite Mavericks Renegade and Prodigy Twilight—and explore the unique challenges of choreographing for small teams, non-tumbling divisions, and World Championship contenders. Whether you're a coach, choreographer, athlete, or fan of the sport, this conversation is a reminder that the best routines aren't just built around skills—they're built around people, creativity, and the moments that make us feel something. Chapters
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| 017 Brynn + Jalyn - The Team That Scored 100 | 15 Jun 2026 | 00:46:01 | |
A perfect score is one of the rarest achievements in cheerleading. But what happens after you get one? In this episode, Judge Mimi sits down with Brynn and Jalyn of Macs All Stars, the coaches behind Reign, a team that went from a half-year experiment to back-to-back Summit champions and one of the few teams to earn a perfect 100-point score. Together, they break down the journey behind the score, the culture that makes Macs All Stars special, and the challenge of keeping athletes motivated after reaching the top. They also discuss routine strategy, theme selection, choreography, and how coaches balance confidence with humility throughout a season. Along the way, they revisit Reign's routines, reflect on what "perfect" really means in a subjective sport, and share lessons that apply far beyond the scoresheet. Because cheerleading is more than counts. It's about the teamwork, leadership, resilience, and growth that happen long before the trophies and scores are announced. Takeaways
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| 016 Coach Levi - Confidence, Fear, and the Making of Great Tumblers | 07 Jun 2026 | 00:42:47 | |
Tumbling is one of the most visible skills in cheerleading, but the journey behind it is often much bigger than the skill itself. In this episode, Levi joins us to talk about what it really takes to develop successful tumblers. From overcoming fear and mental blocks to building confidence under pressure, we explore the challenges athletes face and the role coaches and parents play in supporting them along the way. We also dive into the art of tumbling itself—what makes standing tumbling visually appealing, how judges perceive different skills, and how coaches can make smarter decisions when building routines around their athletes' strengths. Whether you're a coach trying to maximize your tumbling score, a parent supporting an athlete through a setback, or an athlete chasing the next skill, this conversation offers practical insights and a fresh perspective on one of cheerleading's most important disciplines. Because great tumbling isn't just about the skills athletes perform—it's about the confidence, resilience, and trust they build along the way. Chapters
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| 015 Rick Rodgers - How Paracheer Is Changing Cheerleading Forever | 01 Jun 2026 | 00:49:47 | |
What does it take to create a place in cheerleading where everyone belongs? In this episode, Judge Mimi sits down with Rick Rodgers, one of the pioneers behind adaptive and para cheerleading, to discuss the journey that led to a groundbreaking para sport cheer showcase at ICU Worlds. Rick shares how adaptive cheerleading has evolved over the last decade, the creativity required to adapt skills and routines for athletes with different disabilities, and the challenges of building opportunities for participation at the highest levels of the sport. Together, they explore the differences between Cheer Abilities, Adaptive Abilities, and Para Sport Cheer, watch the evolution of some of Rick’s routines, and discuss what it would take for para cheerleading to one day become a recognized Paralympic sport. This conversation is a reminder that some of the most important innovations in cheerleading aren't about difficulty—they're about access, inclusion, and creating opportunities for every athlete to shine. Takeaways
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| 014 Adrian Butler - How Top Gun Legends Won Worlds in Year 1 | 25 May 2026 | 01:01:08 | |
From opening two gyms in two years to building a first-year Worlds champion, Adrian Butler takes us inside one of the most talked-about seasons in cheerleading. In this episode, we break down the rise of Top Gun Legends — how the athletes bought into the vision, the pressure of carrying the Top Gun name, and the tiny routine changes that helped shape their Worlds-winning run. Adrian also shares his philosophy on coaching, athlete development, routine construction, musicality, and why creating emotion matters just as much as difficulty. From building culture inside the gym to creating moments that make crowds erupt, this conversation goes far beyond the scoresheet. We also watch and analyze routines together, including the evolution of the Legends routine from early season to Worlds Finals, and talk about what truly makes a routine memorable. Takeaways
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| 013 Kyle - Building Winning Routine Across the Globe | 18 May 2026 | 00:39:58 | |
From teaching himself backflips in his backyard in rural Iowa… to choreographing Worlds-level routines across the globe, Kyle Spirit FX has become one of the most influential voices in competitive cheerleading. In this episode, we dive into what it actually takes to build winning routines in different countries, across different score sheets, and for completely different team cultures. From South America’s explosive growth in cheerleading, to adapting choreography for Open, United, and ICU score sheets, Kyle breaks down the strategy behind routines that don’t just score well… but leave an impact. We also react to some unforgettable Worlds performances, including the viral Chilean routine that had everyone talking, and discuss why creativity, pacing, participation, and performance matter more than ever in modern cheerleading. This conversation goes far beyond choreography. It’s about leadership, integrity, global growth in the sport, and understanding what really makes a routine memorable. Because cheerleading is more than counts. Takeaways Takeaways
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| 012 High School Cheer Rules - Explained with Coach K | 11 May 2026 | 00:41:43 | |
This week on More Than Counts, I sit down with Coach K, the creator behind High School Cheer Rules, to break down one of the most misunderstood parts of cheerleading: legality. From viral stunt videos to hidden deductions that can completely change rankings, we talk about how high school cheer rules actually work, why different competitions sometimes interpret rules differently, and how coaches can better protect their teams from costly mistakes. We also dive into the differences between high school, All-Star, and ICU-style cheerleading, how rules evolve over time, and why some programs seem “ahead of the curve” when new skills become legal. Along the way, Coach K shares her journey from high school coach to one of the internet’s go-to voices for legality education. And of course, we end the episode the More Than Counts way: by reviewing a listener-submitted routine and discussing what makes it effective beyond just the skills. Because cheerleading is more than counts. It’s strategy, safety, creativity, and understanding why the rules exist in the first place. Takeaways
00:00 – Meet Coach K & the world of High School Cheer Rules | |||
| 011 Leon - How Australia Does Cheer Differently… and Still Wins | 04 May 2026 | 00:39:48 | |
What if everything you think you know about cheerleading… depends on where you are in the world? In this episode, I sit down with Leon to unpack what cheer looks like in Australia—and why it’s so different from what we see in North America. From the way programs are built, to how dance and cheer are deeply connected, to coaches taking on choreography themselves… this is a completely different system. And yet—it works! We talk about what it actually takes to grow a sport in a country where there’s no traditional pathway, how teams prepare for international competitions like Summit on a completely different season timeline, and what it means to build athletes not just for routines—but for life. This episode is a reminder that there isn’t just one way to do cheerleading. And sometimes, doing it differently is exactly what leads to success. Takeaways
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| 010 Dahlston Delgado - The Mind Behind Your Favourite NCA Routines | 20 Apr 2026 | 00:50:07 | |
What does it actually take to build a routine that wins—and one that people remember? In this episode, I sit down with Dahlston Delgado—the choreographer behind 13 routines at NCA this year, and creative forces shaping cheerleading both on and off the competition floor. We break down his process from the very first skills check to the final performance—how he builds structure, layers movement, and makes decisions that balance the score sheet with the audience experience. We also get into the differences between college and all-star choreography, what changes when you’re building for NCA vs UCA, and how his work on Stumble and Broadway has shifted the way he sees routine design. Plus, we watch and analyze real routines—including one submitted by a listener—and talk through what works, what could be elevated, and how small decisions create big impact. This conversation is a deep dive into the strategy, creativity, and emotion behind elite routines—and a reminder that the best performances don’t just score well… they make you feel something. Chapters
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| 009 Kass - From MTL to Top Gun | 13 Apr 2026 | 00:28:56 | |
This episode dives into the journey of an athlete who took a leap — from Montreal to Top Gun — and everything that came with it. Kass shares what it really looked like to leave Canada, step into the U.S. cheer system, and navigate an environment where the pressure is higher, the expectations are different, and every rep matters. From battling through two ACL injuries to earning her spot on Double O, her story is one of resilience, work ethic, and belief. We break down the real differences between cheering in Canada vs. the U.S. — from team culture and accountability to the role of alternates and what it means to prove yourself every single day. And through it all, this conversation is a reminder that growth doesn’t just come from the routine — it comes from the environments we step into and the standards we choose to meet. Takeaways
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| 008 Cheer Dad - Jay Yoder | 06 Apr 2026 | 00:37:26 | |
In this episode, we’re shifting the lens a little—because cheerleading isn’t just experienced on the mat. I’m joined by Jay, a dad, comedian, and creator whose viral TikToks capture the real, funny, and sometimes chaotic side of being a cheer parent. What starts as a conversation about supporting your athlete quickly turns into something deeper: what this sport teaches families about resilience, community, and showing up—fully. We talk about how cheerleading has evolved, from the skills we see on the floor to the way information, creativity, and even language spread through the sport. From naming trends to social media shaping how quickly teams level up, this episode connects the dots between culture, coaching, and the parent experience. But at the core of it all, this is a conversation about perspective—how cheerleading can change not just the athlete, but the people around them. Because the impact of cheerleading isn’t just on the athlete—it’s on the people who love them most, and that’s what makes it more than counts: what routines teach us about teamwork, leadership, and life. Takeaways
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| 007 Natalie - Team Canada Premier Head Coach | 31 Mar 2026 | 00:45:07 | |
What does it actually take to build a national team routine—when time is limited and every decision matters? In this episode, Natalie breaks down the strategy behind Team Canada: from athlete selection and preparation to navigating a unique scoring system and building a “homework culture” that drives success. We get into how routines evolve through feedback, how to adapt under pressure, and why visual storytelling is just as important as the skills on the mat. This is a behind-the-scenes look at what it really takes to perform at the highest level—and the decisions you don’t see on competition day. Because cheerleading is more than counts. And what makes routines special is what they teach us about teamwork, leadership, and life. Let’s get into it. Takeaways
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| 006 - JJ Jones | 23 Mar 2026 | 00:45:26 | |
On this episode of More Than Counts, I’m joined by JJ—coach, choreographer, and someone who truly understands what it takes to build routines that hit. We get into his journey through cheer, from stepping into the California scene to finding his voice in coaching and choreography. But more than that, this conversation really dives into what sits underneath great routines—team culture, intention, and strategy. We talk about what actually makes choreography work (and what doesn’t), how to approach routine changes without losing your structure, and why musicality and pacing can completely change how a routine is received. We also get into the differences between high school and all-star routines, and the non-negotiables JJ brings into every team he works with. If you’ve ever watched a routine and thought “why did that score the way it did?”—this episode is for you. Takeaways
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| 005 - Kevin | 16 Mar 2026 | 00:45:46 | |
Kevin Ahern joins More Than Counts to share his journey into cheerleading and the path that led him from athlete to choreographer and coach. In this conversation, we explore how Kevin discovered cheerleading through his background in dance and how early opportunities to choreograph quickly turned into a passion for creating routines and working with teams. He shares his approach to choreography, including the importance of collaboration with coaches, understanding the strengths of athletes, and building routines that feel authentic to the team performing them. Kevin also talks about the realities of working with different programs — from adapting to gym changes and supporting teams through transitions, to how competition results can influence the growth and movement within gyms. And of course, we watch routines together. We break down performances from South Bay Divas, Texas Bandits, Fierce Athletics, and a listener-submitted routine from Brazil, discussing choreography choices, visual clarity, stunt creativity, and how small adjustments can impact the way a routine reads on the floor. This episode also touches on evaluating non-tumbling routines, the unique energy of Level 1 teams, and Kevin’s advice for aspiring choreographers looking to grow in the industry. Takeaways
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| 004 Jeremy + Marcus | 09 Mar 2026 | 00:52:57 | |
What happens when choreography becomes more than just skills and counts — and starts with relationships? In this episode of More Than Counts, I sit down with Jeremy Brown and Marcus, the duo behind Creative Elements, to talk about their journey in the cheerleading industry and the philosophy that drives their choreography. We dive into how their partnership started, why they prioritize relationship-driven choreography, and how collaboration between coaches, athletes, and choreographers can transform a program. Jeremy and Marcus share their perspective on evolving trends in cheerleading, the importance of creating a supportive team environment, and the non-negotiables they bring into every routine they build. We also break down routines together — from Florida Twisters to Arizona All-Star Venom — analyzing what makes performances stand out, why clean movement and clear visuals still win, and how small details like formations, timing, and even uniform colors can dramatically impact how routines are seen by judges and audiences. This conversation goes beyond choreography. It’s about community, mentorship, and building teams where athletes feel supported and inspired to grow. Because at the end of the day… cheerleading is more than counts. Takeaways
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| 003 - Hailey D'Lynn Smith | 02 Mar 2026 | 00:58:51 | |
In this episode of More Than Counts, I sit down with Hailey D’Lynn Smith — Weber State, Miami Metal, and Team USA athlete — to break down one of the most powerful journeys in partner stunt. From her transition out of elite gymnastics into the world of cheerleading, to qualifying near the bottom and rising to become a back-to-back champion, Hailey shares what it really took to build confidence, trust a long-term stunt partnership, and redefine what winning means. Together, we watch her routines from 2022 to today and analyze the evolution in real time — the strategy behind routine construction, the shift from difficulty to cleanliness, and the mindset that changed everything. We talk about:
This episode is about perseverance, growth, partnership, and pushing the boundaries of what’s possible — on and off the mat. Because cheerleading is More Than Counts. Chapters
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| 002 - Andres Galvan | 19 Feb 2026 | 00:51:46 | |
n this episode of More Than Counts, we sit down with Andres, a Mexican choreographer whose work is making an impact on teams around the world. From his journey as an athlete to coaching and building a global choreography career, Andres shares how his experience has shaped his creative process and his approach to athlete experience. We dive into the evolution of cheerleading in Mexico, the reality of working with half-season and non-tumbling teams, and how he balances difficulty, creativity, and team identity when building routines. Together, we break down three impactful routines from different programs, exploring the story behind each team, the choreographic choices, and the moments that truly hit the scoresheet. This episode is a deep look at culture, collaboration, and what it means to create routines that are not only competitive — but meaningful. Because cheerleading is More Than Counts. Takeaways
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| 001 - Ashley Williams | 05 Feb 2026 | 00:45:09 | |
Welcome to More Than Counts, a visual podcast about what really goes into cheerleading routines. | |||