More Than Counts – Details, episodes & analysis

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More Than Counts

Judge Mimi

Education

Sports

Frequency: 1 episode/8d. Total Eps: 24

More Than Counts is a podcast about what really goes into cheerleading routines... beyond the eight counts!

Hosted by cheer Judge Mimi, this show brings choreographers, coaches, athletes, and industry leaders together to break down choreography, creativity, and the stories behind the routines you see on the mat. Each episode explores what makes routines special, what actually hits the scoresheet, and what cheerleading teaches us about teamwork, leadership, and life.

This podcast is for cheerleading coaches, choreographers, parents, and athletes who want to see routines differently, appreciate the process behind them, and better understand why cheerleading is truly More Than Counts.

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Data updated on 04/08/2026

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024 Jason Larkins - What it Really Takes to Run a Cheer Gym

Episode 24

Monday, August 3, 2026 • Duration 47:24

Most people know Jason Larkins from his podcast, social media, or years of coaching championship teams. But behind the routines and the highlights is another role that often goes unseen: gym director.

In this episode, Jason shares how he accidentally found cheerleading, the journey that led him from athlete to coach, and eventually to leading a successful all-star program. We dive into what really happens during team placements, why some of the hardest coaching decisions happen long before athletes ever step onto the floor, and the leadership lessons he's learned after more than two decades in the sport.

We also watch two of American Cheer's routines from last season, breaking down the strategy behind their choreography, creativity, and scoring decisions while discussing how routines evolve throughout the season.

Whether you're a coach, gym owner, athlete, or parent, this conversation offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at the decisions that shape a program long before competition day.

Takeaways

The transition from athlete to coach is a significant and impactful journey.
The role of a gym director involves making tough decisions, managing team dynamics, and dealing with the stress of team placement. Dedication is key to winning
Coaching and choreography play a crucial role in team success

Chapters

00:00 The Journey into Cheerleading
03:05 From Athlete to Coach
11:00 The Role of a Gym Director
20:56 Team Placement and Decision-Making
25:05 Coaching and Team Dynamics
27:27 Perfect Opening
28:10 Showmanship and Creativity
29:01 Choreography and Stunts
32:50 Dance Difficulty and Execution
37:11 Motivating the Team
38:48 Personal Achievements and Legacy
41:03 Team Black's Journey
44:39 Pyramid and Dance Performance
48:49 Competition and Coaching Insights

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023 Judge Mimi - You Asked. I Answered. (And Reviewed Your Routines.)

Episode 23

Monday, July 27, 2026 • Duration 01:10:24

What catches a judge's eye in the first 15 seconds of a routine? What separates winning programs from everyone else? And what would I change if I had one chance to help your team score higher?

In this special solo episode of More Than Counts, I'm answering your questions about judging, coaching, business, social media, and balancing life as a mom while traveling the world as an international cheer judge. Along the way, I review listener-submitted routines from around the world, sharing one thing each team does exceptionally well and one area I'd focus on to maximize their scores.

Whether you're a coach looking for fresh ideas, an athlete curious about what judges really notice, or someone who simply loves the sport, this episode is packed with practical insights you can bring back to the gym.

Chapters:

0:00 — Introduction and what judges notice in the first 15 seconds
3:32 — Routine review: Fame All-Star Vixens
8:54 — What I wish I had when I started in cheer
10:42 — Routine review: Coventry Dynamite C4
15:17 — How much a team’s social media presence matters
18:32 — Routine review: Airborne Elite All Star Stealth
22:59 — Scariest decision made
25:43 — Routine review: Cheer United Solar Sister
30:01 — Coaching mini/youth vs senior athletes
32:12 — Routine review: Twisted Cheer and Dance — Rain
35:17 — The new IASF scorecard
40:00 — Routine review: Paris Cheer Nights
44:43 — Balancing being a mom with traveling
46:29 — Routine review: Laser Cheer Academy Ruby Royal
51:34 — Biggest mistakes coaches make
53:00 — Routine review: All-Star Evolution Glory
56:53 — What cheer needs to attract fans outside the sport
62:37 — Routine review: TNT All-Star Detonator
66:23 — How to connect with your community and school
68:16 — What winning programs consistently do
69:15 — Routine review: Cheer Empire Athletic Kings

022 Kelvin Lam - What Elite Stunt Coaches See That You Don't

Episode 22

Monday, July 20, 2026 • Duration 01:09:06

Kelvin Lam has spent decades asking a simple question: why do great stunts actually work?

From his early days at the University of Hawaii to Team USA and becoming one of the most respected stunt educators in the sport, Kelvin has built a reputation for challenging conventional wisdom and helping coaches see stunting through a different lens.

In this episode, we dive into the fundamentals that make stunts stronger, safer, and more efficient, while unpacking some of the biggest myths that have been passed down through generations of cheerleading. We also watch routines together, breaking down what elite coaches notice in real time and why seemingly small technical decisions can have a lasting impact on an athlete's development.

Whether you're coaching Level 1 athletes or building Worlds-level routines, this conversation will change the way you think about progressions, technique, and the future of stunt coaching.

Takeaways

Why elite coaches see stunts differently.
The biggest misconceptions in stunt technique.
How small technical choices shape long-term athlete development.
Why creativity starts with strong fundamentals.
The role of progressions in building safer, more consistent stunts.
What coaches should really be looking for when troubleshooting a stunt.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Early Cheer Experience
03:00 Transition to University of Hawaii
05:58 Innovative Video Filming and Technique Instruction
07:01 Underrated Fundamental in Stunting
08:02 Shoulder Positioning in Stunting
09:04 Scoring and Creativity in Cheerleading
27:01 Crowd Interaction and CrowdScore
30:04 Overcoming Frustration and Setbacks
48:30 Innovative Techniques and Routines
56:06 Forward-Thinking Technique Choices
57:09 Maxing Out Stunt Difficulty
58:14 Alignment and Weight Distribution in Stunts

021 Jake Chester - What Makes Cheer Dance Actually Score

Episode 21

Monday, July 13, 2026 • Duration 53:36

What makes a dance score? Is it more movement? More difficulty? Or is it something else entirely?

In this episode of More Than Counts, Judge Mimi sits down with choreographer and coach Jake to explore one of the most debated parts of a routine: dance. Together, they unpack what makes choreography memorable, why readability matters just as much as difficulty, and how seamless transitions, musicality, and visual design can elevate a routine.

Jake also shares how an unexpected background in marching band shaped his choreography philosophy, what he's learned coaching athletes from Level 2 through Level 6, and why creating routines that fit the team will always outperform trying to force complexity.

As always, they put theory into practice—breaking down routines from Cheer Athletics' Ocelots, a developing 4.2 team, and a listener-submitted routine, discussing pacing, formations, cleaning, recovery, and the small details that can make a big difference on the scoresheet.

Whether you're a coach, choreographer, athlete, or simply love the creative side of cheerleading, this episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at what judges actually see—and what makes great choreography stand out.

Takeaways

Importance of Readability in Dance
Balancing Difficulty and Execution Choreography and Routine Design
Team Development and Progression

Chapters

00:00 The Art of Dance
01:39 Choreography and Coaching Journey
02:36 Influence of Gymnastics and Marching Band
03:46 The Role of Music and Dance in Cheerleading
20:38 Dance Cleaning and Strategy
26:38 Visual Movement and Showmanship
27:40 The O'Baby Queens
28:51 The NCA Experience
30:15 The Aftermath
32:18 The Oslo Routine
33:31 Building a 4.2 Team
48:57 Routine Analysis

020 John Newby - Can You Make a Living as a Professional Cheerleader?

Episode 20

Monday, July 6, 2026 • Duration 36:28

Professional cheerleading is no longer just an idea—it's becoming a reality.

In this episode, Judge Mimi sits down with John Newby, Commissioner of the Professional Cheer League (PCL) and EVP of Varsity International, for a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to build a professional league from the ground up.

They discuss the vision behind the PCL, why the league is moving to a head-to-head format, what new games are coming in Season 2, and how the league is creating more opportunities for athletes to shine. John also shares how athlete compensation works, the challenges of bringing international athletes into the league, and what still needs to happen before professional cheer becomes a full-time career path.

To wrap up the conversation, John and Judge Mimi watch one of his favorite PCL routines together, breaking down the moments that made it unforgettable and what fans might have missed.

Whether you're an athlete dreaming of competing professionally, a coach following the evolution of the sport, or simply curious about where cheerleading is headed, this episode offers an inside look at the decisions shaping its future.

Takeaways

Why the PCL was created and the vision driving its growth.
How the new head-to-head format changes the fan and athlete experience.
What athletes are paid and what needs to happen for professional cheer to become a full-time career.
The challenges—and opportunities—of expanding the league internationally.
Why building a professional sport takes more than great athletes—it takes trust, collaboration, and a shared vision.

Chapters

00:00 The New Format and Vision for the Future
20:35 Visa Requirements and Logistics
26:08 Dallas Drive's Performance and Props Feedback
31:32 Scheduling and Event Logistics

019 Kaden Koz - The Details That Separate Good Routines From Great Ones

Episode 19

Monday, June 29, 2026 • Duration 48:43

From becoming a self-proclaimed "gym rat" chasing standing tucks to competing with GymTyme Chrome at Worlds and building some of Virginia's most recognizable themed routines, Kaden Koz has seen cheerleading from nearly every angle.

In this episode, we dive into the creative side of choreography: what actually makes a routine memorable, how themed routines come to life, and why crowd engagement matters just as much as difficulty. Kaden also shares the incredible story of the overnight changes GymTyme Chrome made between Day 1 and Finals at Worlds, offering a rare look at the strategy, decision-making, and trust that go into chasing a championship.

As always, we wrap up by reviewing a listener-submitted routine, breaking down the details that elevate great performances.

Whether you're an athlete, coach, choreographer, or simply love the sport, this conversation is packed with practical insights and behind-the-scenes stories that remind us great routines are built long before they ever take the floor.

Takeaways

Transition from diving to cheerleading
Importance of crowd response in cheer routines The importance of unassisted stunts
The impact of COVID-19 on routines and competitions

Chapters

00:00 The Journey into Cheerleading
05:05 Transition to College Cheerleading
20:53 Competing at Worlds with Gym Time All-Star Chrome
28:36 The Art of Unassisted Stunts
34:10 High School Coaching and Success
46:58 Planning and Preparation for Future Seasons

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018 Chris Cox - Building Moments, Not Just Routines

Episode 17

Monday, June 22, 2026 • Duration 36:07

Chris Cox didn't set out to become a choreographer. He simply fell in love with the creative side of cheerleading and never stopped chasing it.

In this episode, Chris shares his journey from athlete, to coach, to building one of the industry's most respected choreography brands. We dive into what makes a routine memorable, how movement and formations can create powerful visual moments, and why great choreography is about more than just checking boxes on a score sheet.

Along the way, we break down two standout routines—Desert Elite Mavericks Renegade and Prodigy Twilight—and explore the unique challenges of choreographing for small teams, non-tumbling divisions, and World Championship contenders.

Whether you're a coach, choreographer, athlete, or fan of the sport, this conversation is a reminder that the best routines aren't just built around skills—they're built around people, creativity, and the moments that make us feel something.

Chapters

00:00 The Journey from Athlete to Choreographer
07:15 Collaboration and Feedback in Choreography
16:38 Misconceptions About Good Choreography
21:41 Challenges of Non-Tumbling Division
27:12 Growth and Development in Cheerleading
32:47 Routine Review and Analysis

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017 Brynn + Jalyn - The Team That Scored 100

Episode 17

Monday, June 15, 2026 • Duration 46:01

A perfect score is one of the rarest achievements in cheerleading. But what happens after you get one?

In this episode, Judge Mimi sits down with Brynn and Jalyn of Macs All Stars, the coaches behind Reign, a team that went from a half-year experiment to back-to-back Summit champions and one of the few teams to earn a perfect 100-point score.

Together, they break down the journey behind the score, the culture that makes Macs All Stars special, and the challenge of keeping athletes motivated after reaching the top. They also discuss routine strategy, theme selection, choreography, and how coaches balance confidence with humility throughout a season.

Along the way, they revisit Reign's routines, reflect on what "perfect" really means in a subjective sport, and share lessons that apply far beyond the scoresheet.

Because cheerleading is more than counts. It's about the teamwork, leadership, resilience, and growth that happen long before the trophies and scores are announced.

Takeaways

The importance of motivation and humility in maintaining success
The subjective nature of perfection in competitive cheerleading Adapting to a new division requires depth and motivation
Choreography benefits from a personal connection with the athletes

Chapters

00:00 The Journey to Cheerleading
07:20 Routine Development and Strategy
16:08 Scoring a Perfect 100
24:34 The Definition of Perfection in Cheerleading
30:19 Adapting to a New Division
44:36 Reviewing a Cheerleading Routine

016 Coach Levi - Confidence, Fear, and the Making of Great Tumblers

Episode 16

Sunday, June 7, 2026 • Duration 42:47

Tumbling is one of the most visible skills in cheerleading, but the journey behind it is often much bigger than the skill itself.

In this episode, Levi joins us to talk about what it really takes to develop successful tumblers. From overcoming fear and mental blocks to building confidence under pressure, we explore the challenges athletes face and the role coaches and parents play in supporting them along the way.

We also dive into the art of tumbling itself—what makes standing tumbling visually appealing, how judges perceive different skills, and how coaches can make smarter decisions when building routines around their athletes' strengths.

Whether you're a coach trying to maximize your tumbling score, a parent supporting an athlete through a setback, or an athlete chasing the next skill, this conversation offers practical insights and a fresh perspective on one of cheerleading's most important disciplines.

Because great tumbling isn't just about the skills athletes perform—it's about the confidence, resilience, and trust they build along the way.

Chapters

00:00 The Journey of Tumbling
06:52 Supporting Athletes Through Mental Blocks
21:22 Uniformity in Tumbling Styles
27:02 The Challenge of Standing Fulls
33:16 The Challenge of Standing Fulls
39:21 Tumbling in Routine Building
47:13 Tumbling Technique and Coaching

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015 Rick Rodgers - How Paracheer Is Changing Cheerleading Forever

Episode 15

Monday, June 1, 2026 • Duration 49:47

What does it take to create a place in cheerleading where everyone belongs?

In this episode, Judge Mimi sits down with Rick Rodgers, one of the pioneers behind adaptive and para cheerleading, to discuss the journey that led to a groundbreaking para sport cheer showcase at ICU Worlds.

Rick shares how adaptive cheerleading has evolved over the last decade, the creativity required to adapt skills and routines for athletes with different disabilities, and the challenges of building opportunities for participation at the highest levels of the sport.

Together, they explore the differences between Cheer Abilities, Adaptive Abilities, and Para Sport Cheer, watch the evolution of some of Rick’s routines, and discuss what it would take for para cheerleading to one day become a recognized Paralympic sport.

This conversation is a reminder that some of the most important innovations in cheerleading aren't about difficulty—they're about access, inclusion, and creating opportunities for every athlete to shine.

Takeaways

Adaptive cheerleading divisions have opened up opportunities for athletes with disabilities to participate in cheerleading at various levels.
Choreography and logistics in para sport cheerleading involve unique adaptations to accommodate athletes with disabilities, including visual impairment, wheelchair use, and other impairments. Adaptation and creativity are essential in developing cheerleading routines for disabled athletes.
The potential for Paralympic cheerleading presents an opportunity for inclusive and diverse participation in the sport.

Chapters

00:00 Journey into Cheerleading
07:59 Choreography and Logistics in Para Sport Cheerleading
15:02 Inclusion of Athletes with Disabilities

More Than Counts – Details, episodes & analysis

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More Than Counts – Details, episodes & analysis

Podcast details

Recent rankings

Apple Podcasts

Spotify

Shared links between episodes and podcasts

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Latest published episodes

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