More Than Counts is a podcast about what really goes into cheerleading routines... beyond the eight counts!
Hosted by cheer Judge Mimi, this show brings choreographers, coaches, athletes, and industry leaders together to break down choreography, creativity, and the stories behind the routines you see on the mat. Each episode explores what makes routines special, what actually hits the scoresheet, and what cheerleading teaches us about teamwork, leadership, and life.
This podcast is for cheerleading coaches, choreographers, parents, and athletes who want to see routines differently, appreciate the process behind them, and better understand why cheerleading is truly More Than Counts.
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More Than Counts, a podcast by Judge Mimi - Stats, Episodes and Rankings - My Podcast Data
029 Alex Gaggioli - Cheer Theory: Making Cheer Easier to Follow
Season 1 · Episode 29
Monday, September 7, 2026 • Duration 51:23
What does it take to make cheerleading easier to follow, understand and love as a fan?
In Episode 029, I sit down with Alex, the creator of Cheer Theory, to talk about his journey from competitive athlete to building one of the most trusted media platforms in cheerleading.
Alex takes us behind the scenes of covering Worlds, tracking scores and results in real time, and turning a very complicated sport into information fans can actually understand. We also discuss how cheerleading is represented outside our industry, why full routines still matter, and what it will take to move the sport forward without constantly trying to prove that it belongs.
Then, we revisit two routines that bookend Alex’s journey as an athlete: the 2011 Lady Bullets routine that made him fall in love with cheerleading and his final performance with Cali Coed. We finish by reviewing Kingston Elite Cheerleading Diamond and sharing ways their Level 1 routine could create even more visual impact.
This episode is about nostalgia, data, fandom and the work happening behind the scenes to help more people experience cheerleading as the sport we know it to be.
Takeaways
Cheer Theory's evolution from a basic website to a comprehensive platform for cheerleading data and information
The impact of technology on the accessibility and coverage of cheerleading competitions Media portrayal impacts public perception
Evolution of cheerleading routines and scoring systems
Nostalgia for past routines and trends
Chapters
00:00 The Journey into Cheerleading
01:20 Evolution of Cheer Theory
02:47 Full-Time Commitment to Cheer Theory
03:11 The Impact of Technology on Cheerleading
07:06 Coverage of Cheerleading Competitions
26:08 Operational Excellence in Cheerleading Competitions
27:10 Media Portrayal and Public Perception
28:23 Evolution of Cheerleading Routines and Scoring Systems
33:30 Nostalgia for Past Routines and Trends
028 Maria the Cheer Doctor - Can Judges Tell If Your Team Strength Trains?
Season 1 · Episode 28
Monday, August 31, 2026 • Duration 45:18
When a stunt feels shaky, a jump lacks height, or execution begins to fade, coaches often respond with more repetitions. But what if the real problem isn’t cleaning… it’s strength?
In this episode, Mimi sits down with physical therapist and former Ohio State cheerleader Maria Wisman, better known as The Cheer Doctor, to explore how strength training directly affects what we see on the competition floor.
They discuss why every cheerleader (including flyers!) belongs in the weight room, how coaches can make strength training manageable within an already busy practice schedule, and why simply lifting your flyer at practice doesn’t count as a strength program.
Mimi and Maria also revisit Maria’s own Ohio State routine and review a listener-submitted routine to break down how strength, power, and physical preparation show up through jumps, stunts, motions, landings, and execution under fatigue.
Because sometimes, your athletes don’t need more reps. They need more strength.
Takeaways
Strength training can simplify the approach to cheerleading and improve athletic performance.
Starting strength training at a young age can be beneficial for athletes in developing physical qualities necessary for success. Structured strength training is essential for efficiency and injury prevention.
Balancing rest, recovery, and training is crucial for long-term success in cheerleading.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Strength Training Takeaway
00:53 The Journey to Cheerleading
02:54 The Birth of The Cheer Doctor
04:25 Misconceptions About Cheerleading
05:59 Physical Needs of Cheer Athletes
06:41 Strength Training for Cheerleaders
027 Brandon Mackey - How to Build a Routine That Works on Any Score Sheet
Season 1 · Episode 27
Monday, August 24, 2026 • Duration 36:00
Can one routine succeed on two different score sheets?
In this episode, international choreographer Brandon Mackey joins Judge Mimi to talk about building routines around the world and adapting choreography for different athletes, cultures and scoring systems.
Brandon shares his journey from Newfoundland to winning Worlds and becoming a full-time choreographer. Together, he and Mimi break down routines from Australia and Canada, explore the differences between comparative and rubric-based scoring, and discuss how teams can strategically adjust a routine when competing in both Canada and the United States... without rebuilding everything from scratch.
They also talk about creating fast-paced routines without sacrificing execution, using the entire floor, building choreography around a team’s natural strengths and developing the trust between coaches and choreographers that allows the best ideas to come to life.
Plus, Mimi reviews Ocala Athletics Code Red and Brandon shares his advice for anyone hoping to follow in his footsteps: defeat your own impossible and find the style that is uniquely yours.
Takeaways
Competitiveness drives success
Transitioning between locations presents challenges
Routine composition and creativity are key to success Reverse engineering choreography
Strategic adjustments for different competition score systems
Chapters
00:00 Journey into Cheerleading
01:59 Transitioning to Ontario
03:39 Coaching and Choreography
05:19 Global Nature of Work
09:58 Routine Composition and Creativity
19:04 Creating Visionary Choreography
22:14 Navigating Competition Score Systems
026 Becky Acra - Raise The Athlete, Not The Pressure
Season 1 · Episode 26
Monday, August 17, 2026 • Duration 40:01
Raise the Athlete, Not the Pressure
How do we raise athletes who can handle pressure, disappointment and big expectations... without making their results feel like everything?
This week, I sit down with Coach Becky, author of Raise the Athlete, Not the Pressure, to talk about the role coaches and parents play in shaping an athlete’s experience in sport.
Becky has experienced cheerleading from almost every angle: athlete, coach, gym owner, program director and cheer mom. We talk about the pressure we sometimes create without realizing it, why the car ride home matters, how coaches and parents can better work together, and what athletes actually need from us when things don’t go according to plan.
We also look at a season where Becky’s team was predicted to win at Summit, only to have a rough 10 seconds that ended their run. It opens up a bigger conversation about social media, expectations, athletic identity and remembering that one performance does not define an athlete... or their season.
And, of course, we watch some cheerleading together and review a listener-submitted routine.
What if there were more than one pathway to competitive cheerleading?
David Sims joins More Than Counts to take us inside YCADA and the evolution of Travel Cheer & Dance, an alternative competitive pathway built for programs that don’t necessarily fit into the traditional All Star model.
We talk about where youth and recreation cheer fits into the history of our sport, why Travel Cheer was created, and what makes its approach different. Then, of course, we get into scoring. David breaks down a system where difficulty isn’t capped, every skill has value, execution comes with real risk, and coaches have more freedom to build a strategy around the athletes they actually have.
We also review a listener-submitted routine from Carlton All Stars and talk choreography, floor use, creativity, movement, and why full-team tumbling might deserve a comeback.
Because sometimes growing the sport isn’t about getting everyone onto the same path—it’s about creating more paths for people to stay in it.
Chapters
00:00 The Evolution of Cheerleading
02:59 Youth and Recreation Cheerleading
23:55 Precision-like Scoring in Cheerleading
25:47 Strategic Decision-Making in Cheerleading
28:19 Barriers to Entry in Cheerleading
29:14 Competitive Pathways in Cheerleading
30:02 Scoring Systems and Comparative Aspects
39:23 Routine Review and Feedback
42:25 The Essence of Cheerleading
024 Jason Larkins - What it Really Takes to Run a Cheer Gym
Season 1 · Episode 24
Monday, August 3, 2026 • Duration 47:24
Most people know Jason Larkins from his podcast, social media, or years of coaching championship teams. But behind the routines and the highlights is another role that often goes unseen: gym director.
In this episode, Jason shares how he accidentally found cheerleading, the journey that led him from athlete to coach, and eventually to leading a successful all-star program. We dive into what really happens during team placements, why some of the hardest coaching decisions happen long before athletes ever step onto the floor, and the leadership lessons he's learned after more than two decades in the sport.
We also watch two of American Cheer's routines from last season, breaking down the strategy behind their choreography, creativity, and scoring decisions while discussing how routines evolve throughout the season.
Whether you're a coach, gym owner, athlete, or parent, this conversation offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at the decisions that shape a program long before competition day.
Takeaways
The transition from athlete to coach is a significant and impactful journey.
The role of a gym director involves making tough decisions, managing team dynamics, and dealing with the stress of team placement. Dedication is key to winning
Coaching and choreography play a crucial role in team success
Chapters
00:00 The Journey into Cheerleading
03:05 From Athlete to Coach
11:00 The Role of a Gym Director
20:56 Team Placement and Decision-Making
25:05 Coaching and Team Dynamics
27:27 Perfect Opening
28:10 Showmanship and Creativity
29:01 Choreography and Stunts
32:50 Dance Difficulty and Execution
37:11 Motivating the Team
38:48 Personal Achievements and Legacy
41:03 Team Black's Journey
023 Judge Mimi - You Asked. I Answered. (And Reviewed Your Routines.)
Season 1 · Episode 23
Monday, July 27, 2026 • Duration 01:10:24
What catches a judge's eye in the first 15 seconds of a routine? What separates winning programs from everyone else? And what would I change if I had one chance to help your team score higher?
In this special solo episode of More Than Counts, I'm answering your questions about judging, coaching, business, social media, and balancing life as a mom while traveling the world as an international cheer judge. Along the way, I review listener-submitted routines from around the world, sharing one thing each team does exceptionally well and one area I'd focus on to maximize their scores.
Whether you're a coach looking for fresh ideas, an athlete curious about what judges really notice, or someone who simply loves the sport, this episode is packed with practical insights you can bring back to the gym.
Chapters:
0:00 — Introduction and what judges notice in the first 15 seconds
3:32 — Routine review: Fame All-Star Vixens
8:54 — What I wish I had when I started in cheer
10:42 — Routine review: Coventry Dynamite C4
15:17 — How much a team’s social media presence matters
18:32 — Routine review: Airborne Elite All Star Stealth
22:59 — Scariest decision made
25:43 — Routine review: Cheer United Solar Sister
30:01 — Coaching mini/youth vs senior athletes
32:12 — Routine review: Twisted Cheer and Dance — Rain
35:17 — The new IASF scorecard
40:00 — Routine review: Paris Cheer Nights
44:43 — Balancing being a mom with traveling
46:29 — Routine review: Laser Cheer Academy Ruby Royal
51:34 — Biggest mistakes coaches make
53:00 — Routine review: All-Star Evolution Glory
56:53 — What cheer needs to attract fans outside the sport
62:37 — Routine review: TNT All-Star Detonator
66:23 — How to connect with your community and school
022 Kelvin Lam - What Elite Stunt Coaches See That You Don't
Season 1 · Episode 22
Monday, July 20, 2026 • Duration 01:09:06
Kelvin Lam has spent decades asking a simple question: why do great stunts actually work?
From his early days at the University of Hawaii to Team USA and becoming one of the most respected stunt educators in the sport, Kelvin has built a reputation for challenging conventional wisdom and helping coaches see stunting through a different lens.
In this episode, we dive into the fundamentals that make stunts stronger, safer, and more efficient, while unpacking some of the biggest myths that have been passed down through generations of cheerleading. We also watch routines together, breaking down what elite coaches notice in real time and why seemingly small technical decisions can have a lasting impact on an athlete's development.
Whether you're coaching Level 1 athletes or building Worlds-level routines, this conversation will change the way you think about progressions, technique, and the future of stunt coaching.
Takeaways
Why elite coaches see stunts differently.
The biggest misconceptions in stunt technique.
How small technical choices shape long-term athlete development.
Why creativity starts with strong fundamentals.
The role of progressions in building safer, more consistent stunts.
What coaches should really be looking for when troubleshooting a stunt.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Early Cheer Experience
03:00 Transition to University of Hawaii
05:58 Innovative Video Filming and Technique Instruction
07:01 Underrated Fundamental in Stunting
08:02 Shoulder Positioning in Stunting
09:04 Scoring and Creativity in Cheerleading
27:01 Crowd Interaction and CrowdScore
30:04 Overcoming Frustration and Setbacks
48:30 Innovative Techniques and Routines
56:06 Forward-Thinking Technique Choices
57:09 Maxing Out Stunt Difficulty
58:14 Alignment and Weight Distribution in Stunts
021 Jake Chester - What Makes Cheer Dance Actually Score
Season 1 · Episode 21
Monday, July 13, 2026 • Duration 53:36
What makes a dance score? Is it more movement? More difficulty? Or is it something else entirely?
In this episode of More Than Counts, Judge Mimi sits down with choreographer and coach Jake to explore one of the most debated parts of a routine: dance. Together, they unpack what makes choreography memorable, why readability matters just as much as difficulty, and how seamless transitions, musicality, and visual design can elevate a routine.
Jake also shares how an unexpected background in marching band shaped his choreography philosophy, what he's learned coaching athletes from Level 2 through Level 6, and why creating routines that fit the team will always outperform trying to force complexity.
As always, they put theory into practice—breaking down routines from Cheer Athletics' Ocelots, a developing 4.2 team, and a listener-submitted routine, discussing pacing, formations, cleaning, recovery, and the small details that can make a big difference on the scoresheet.
Whether you're a coach, choreographer, athlete, or simply love the creative side of cheerleading, this episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at what judges actually see—and what makes great choreography stand out.
Takeaways
Importance of Readability in Dance
Balancing Difficulty and Execution Choreography and Routine Design
Team Development and Progression
Chapters
00:00 The Art of Dance
01:39 Choreography and Coaching Journey
02:36 Influence of Gymnastics and Marching Band
03:46 The Role of Music and Dance in Cheerleading
20:38 Dance Cleaning and Strategy
26:38 Visual Movement and Showmanship
27:40 The O'Baby Queens
28:51 The NCA Experience
30:15 The Aftermath
32:18 The Oslo Routine
33:31 Building a 4.2 Team
48:57 Routine Analysis
020 John Newby - Can You Make a Living as a Professional Cheerleader?
Season 1 · Episode 20
Monday, July 6, 2026 • Duration 36:28
Professional cheerleading is no longer just an idea—it's becoming a reality.
In this episode, Judge Mimi sits down with John Newby, Commissioner of the Professional Cheer League (PCL) and EVP of Varsity International, for a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to build a professional league from the ground up.
They discuss the vision behind the PCL, why the league is moving to a head-to-head format, what new games are coming in Season 2, and how the league is creating more opportunities for athletes to shine. John also shares how athlete compensation works, the challenges of bringing international athletes into the league, and what still needs to happen before professional cheer becomes a full-time career path.
To wrap up the conversation, John and Judge Mimi watch one of his favorite PCL routines together, breaking down the moments that made it unforgettable and what fans might have missed.
Whether you're an athlete dreaming of competing professionally, a coach following the evolution of the sport, or simply curious about where cheerleading is headed, this episode offers an inside look at the decisions shaping its future.
Takeaways
Why the PCL was created and the vision driving its growth.
How the new head-to-head format changes the fan and athlete experience.
What athletes are paid and what needs to happen for professional cheer to become a full-time career.
The challenges—and opportunities—of expanding the league internationally.
Why building a professional sport takes more than great athletes—it takes trust, collaboration, and a shared vision.
Chapters
00:00 The New Format and Vision for the Future
20:35 Visa Requirements and Logistics
26:08 Dallas Drive's Performance and Props Feedback
31:32 Scheduling and Event Logistics
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08:09 Access to Resources for Cheer Teams
09:28 The Impact of Strength Training on Performance
10:53 Starting Strength Training at a Young Age
12:03 Myth of Bulking Up from Strength Training
13:30 Overcoming Intimidation in the Weight Room
16:00 Basic Strength Training Tips
17:26 The Importance of Rotation in Training
19:09 Watching the UCA Nationals Routine
23:27 Strength Training vs. Repetition
24:32 Structured Strength Training
25:22 Sports-Specific Training Misconceptions
26:22 Differentiated Training for Bases and Flyers
27:16 Team Training and Vibe
30:33 Basics of Strength Training
32:14 Importance of Rest and Recovery
33:23 Injury Prevention and Recovery
40:06 Jumps and Power
43:32 Strength Training Considerations
45:04 Overlooked Muscle Groups
45:41 Key Exercise and Conditioning Drill
26:59 Nurturing Relationships and Philosophy
31:40 Strategic Routine Adjustments
36:58 Defeating the Impossible
38:14 Looking Ahead to the Season
03:43 The Impact of COVID and Moving Forward
05:30 Coaching Daughters and Parental Influence
08:54 The Inspiration Behind the Book
13:55 Supporting Parents and Athletes
19:18 Bridging the Gap Between Parents and Coaches
21:55 Effective Communication Between Parents and Coaches
32:33 The Impact of Social Media on Athletes
34:19 The Unpredictability of Sports Competitions
36:36 Enjoying the Journey in Cheerleading
44:39 Pyramid and Dance Performance
48:49 Competition and Coaching Insights
72:38 — Did you expect social media to become a big part of your career?
74:26 — Routine review: Ace Athletic Probe
77:46 — What the cheer industry should look like in 10 years
59:33 Proper Technique and Progressions
01:10:42 The Role of Pyramids in Maximizing Points
