After the re-election of Donald Trump to the Presidency of the United States last night, I check in with Layman Pascal to get his take on the political landscape. What can we learn from what's going on? How can we be more open across differences instead of closed and blaming? In fact, how much internal energy should we expend on such matters at all? And what should we expect about the future of the public sphere that might help us better orient to what matters most?

0:00 Introduction

3:27 Surface vs. Structure

10:08 What Can We Learn from the Trump Moment?

14:11 Placing Blame

20:44 Valuing Nonrational Collective Intelligence

26:46 Failures of the Democratic Left

33:26 It Matters, and It Doesn't

39:53 What Does a Progressive Revolution Look Like?

48:47 Towards a Metamodern Politics of Spectacle

1:00:41 A Future of Astonishments

1:13:33 The Coming Carnival of the Public Sphere

1:17:52 Approaches to Media Consumption

1:22:26 Finding Equanimity anf Value in Disruption

1:25:35 Conclusion

I'm joined by Doug Scott, LCSW, to discuss his SH!PS approach to interpersonal transformation and development. Doug is a clinical social worker with a background in ministry and has worked as a mental health counselor since 2001. Here we discuss the common pattern Doug has abstracted from his counseling and pastoral experience for achieving growth and connection, uniting spiritual and mental health perspectives.

0:00 Introduction

1:26 Doug's Story

6:47 A Praxis for Development and Transformation

The SH!PS Approach

12:18 (I)nterview: Perspective-Taking

21:32 (S)olidarity: We're All in this Together

27:27 (H)ope: Cultivating Aspirational Purpose

56:55 (P)rocess: Honoring the Way Things Become

1:03:22 (S)ervice: How to Human Better

1:11:24 Conclusion

To get beyond the enduring impasse of the "science vs. religion" debate, let's give science its due—and then leave it in the dust! There's no need to affirm the historical basis of the Christian story to relate to the Christ of faith. If we can accept that the Gospels are prehistorical materials, we can get beyond the classic hangups and begin to see how "it's all made up" AND "it's all real!" are both true simultaneously. Here I frame the current debates around history and religion in light of the "pre/trans fallacy" so well described by integral theory. This framing, I think, helps position us to appreciate what a truly metamodern Christianity can look like. By accepting the historical Jesus account, we are freed to embrace the Christ of faith and tradition—not in spite of the facts, but because we have transcended them.

0:00 Introduction

2:01 Moving Beyond History

4:20 The Pre/Trans Fallacy

8:31 "Trans-" Demonstrates Capacity and Transformation

13:56 The Gospels and the History of History

21:05 Christianity and the Fallacy of Origins

24:38 Transcending the Claims History Makes on Us

39:11 Cultural Metamodernism and the Transhistorical

46:41 Owning Deconstruction without Equivocation

54:41 The Growth Edge of Christianity

56:31 Conclusion

Does the modern historical-critical lens on the Bible reject miracles on principle and thereby exclude in advance what it presupposes not to be true? Here I counter this critique by explaining how the miracles in the Gospels are problematized not by metaphysical prejudice but historical analysis. Taking the miracles in the Gospels at face value as historical events is problematic even if we work within a metaphysical frame that allows for miracles. Ultimately, it's a matter of historical reconstruction, not worldview, that forces us to rethink how much of the materials can be taken as reliable accounts of "what happened."

0:00 Does Modern Historical-Critical Scholarship Preclude Miracles on Principle?

2:23 A Metamodern Christianity Needs the Modern

3:59 Anti-Miracle Modernism: Steelmanning that Argument (Even Though It's Not Mine)

9:37 The Argument I Am Making: More Information Problematizes Naive Readings

13:09 Setting the Stage: Messianic Expectation and Prophecy Fulfilment

Assessing Miracle Accounts in Light of the Historical Context

17:07 1. Jesus' Birth

29:15 2. Jesus' Calming of the Storm

36:00 3. Jesus' Crucifixion

39:38 4. Jesus' Resurrection

41:38 5. Jesus' Ascension

44:15 Other Historical Considerations

53:50 "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?" Misses the Point Entirely

58:10 Meta-Naturalism: Appreciating an Incomplete Scientific Paradigm

1:03:28 Metamodern Christianity Should Be Robust and Include the Modern Lens

1:06:38 Metamodern Christianity: Informed Naivete and Truth in Development

1:09:50 Conclusion

In this episode, I offer my own take on the "God Pivot" towards Christianity in the Intellectual Dark Web and adjacent communities (e.g., the liminal web, "This Corner of the Internet," and beyond). Reflecting on my recent interview with Jordan Hall, I see something glaringly absent from the broader conversation: the modern historical-critical perspective. Therefore, I ask: 1) How does the Traditional-Devotional perspective differ from the Modern Historical-Critical one with regard to the Old and New Testaments? 2) What might a metamodern Christianity look like that could successfully and syngergistically toggle between these different lenses to yield something progressive and robust?

0:00 Introduction

4:40 Hermeneutic Lenses: The Traditional-Devotional and Modern Historical-Critical Perspectives

7:46 Old Testament: Traditional-Devotional

13:13 Old Testament: Modern Historical-Critical

32:01 New Testament: Traditional-Devotional

37:53 New Testament: Modern Historical-Critical

47:58 Implications and Synthesis

Complexity scientist David Wolpert joins me to consider the idea of meaning at its most fundamental level. Historically, information theory has helped us quantify information (e.g., bits), but says nothing about the ways information might be useful, significant, relevant, or meaningful. Recently, however, Wolpert and colleagues have filled in what's missing from that account, offering a theory of "semantic" or "meaningful" information by showing how some information actually has causal power to influence the well-being and viability of systems in context. Here we explore this idea and a number of its implications for what's "meaningful" across the complexity stack, from a whirlpool to a bacterium all the way up to us.

0:00 Introduction

0:46 Meaning and Semantic Information

2:17 Background Context: Information Theory, Utility Functions, and Statistical Thermodynamics

14:03 Meaning FOR a System: What Information Helps One Stay Far from Equilibrium

21:54 Meaning: Mutual Information with Causal Power for Viability

27:57 Meaning and Meaurement up the Complexity Stack

33:42 Indirect Meaning, Chains of Significance, and Intelligence

37:20 A Semantic Information Theory of Individuality?

42:03 Relative vs. Absolute Semantic Information Metrics

49:52 The Complexification of Meaningful Information through Evolutionary Transitions

52:30 Layered Meaning through Evolution

Philosopher Zak Stein joins me to discuss the "the great post-postmodern project, the reconstruction of value itself," and get into the nuances of what his framework looks like as presented in his new co-authored book First Principles & First Values. What does it mean to say that value is both fundamental and relational? How does a metaphysics of value avoid premodern pitfalls (e.g., the myth of the given, a God's-eye view/view from nowhere, etc.)? What are the challenges posed by language when trying to track value across discontinuities in the complexity stack? Here we compare notes on our respective projects and try to clarify key points.

0:00 Introduction

1:58 Summary Overview of First Principles & First Values

7:35 The Project: A Post-Postmodern Reconstruction of Value

12:44 Is Positing Value as Fundamental a Premodern Move?

32:24 "Value": Avoiding Reification

39:11 Languaging the Reconstruction: Difficulties and Diversity

48:29 The Challenge and Importance of Modern Critique of Value

52:39 "Intimacy" or "Complexity"? Seeking Normative Terminology without Anthropomorphizing

1:03:07 Shifting the Paradigm: Translation or Equivocation?

1:06:25 Panpsychist vs. Emergentist Framings

1:10:26 Shifting Telos across Scales: E.g., Dissipative Structures

1:17:56 Value and Anti-Value

1:22:04 New God: Moving towards the Infinite Intimate

1:27:21 Building the Cathedral/Temple: Living with Sacred Purpose

Process thinker Jared Morningstar joins me to discuss the relationship of metamodernism to traditional forms of religion. How can engaging the traditional frame be done without losing hard-won gains in complexity and perspective-taking? Here Jared advocates for an open, flexible, and epistemically humble form of experimentation and participation in different religious modalities. We consider the role of 'causal opacity' in religious functionality and whether reflection is inherently harmful to generating emergent potential in religious contexts. We also explore the ways traditional faiths may be genuinely engaging with hyper-complex phenomena and how tradition-specific language can be helpful in extending faith into metamodernity. Finally, we discuss the role of plurality and singularity, the general and the particular, in what it means to engage religion from a metamodern perspective.

0:00 Introduction

1:34 Reaction vs. Reconstruction: Which Direction Is Calling?

10:50 Unseen Causes: Participatory Experimentation and Epistemic Humility

17:43 Breaking the Frame: Causation, Disenchantment, and Etic vs. Emic Perspectives

24:25 Moving In and Out of Tradition: Looking Back or Going Back?

35:24 Superstition or Super-Complexity? Parsing Tradition's Relationship with Hyperobjects

50:03 Beyond Perennialism: Religious Pluralism and Traditional Particularity

1:03:09 Living the Openness

1:10:59 Orienting Value in the Uncertainty

1:18:46 Integrating the General and the Particular: Heading Out and Coming Home

1:23:33 Conclusion

Integrative thinker Layman Pascal joins me to talk about the meaning of "God" from a metamodern perspective. How does thinking in terms of "surplus cohesion" point us to a helpful way of relating to all the meanings of the term? Why and when is a 2nd person relationship with Reality warranted? Who is this Face in the Universe summoning us to greater communion and transcendence? How do we communicate about all this across the various memetic sensemaking structures of culture (traditional, modern, postmodern metamodern)? Finally, what can folks expect about the upcoming metamodern spirituality gathering on the topic, which will be hosted at Sky Meadow in May and led by Layman?

0:00 Introduction

1:21 Layman's "Surplus Cohesion" Framework

4:48 God as Ultimate Reality in the 2nd Person

9:52 The Face of the Universe: Seeking the 2nd Person in the Complexity Stack

16:27 Some Framing: Reality as Dynamic Becoming, Not Static Being

21:36 Reflecting on the Alpha and the Omega: Problematizing the "Creator" Image

27:46 But Is This Still God? Communicating across Memetic Tribes

37:22 "Real in What Way?" across Levels of Memetic Complexity

45:05 Summarizing a Metamodern Sort of God

47:06 "God" in Quotation Marks: Moving beyond Totality

52:10 The God Encounter

1:08:12 The Divine Other

1:13:33 Praxis: Courting Visio Divina

1:16:41 Pluralistic Mysticism

1:23:10 Trinity as Dynamic Architectonic Plurality

1:27:08 Naturalism and Metaphysics

1:30:46 God is Love

1:37:20 Talking about "The G Word"

1:39:40 The Upcoming Metamodern Spirituality Lab on "God" at Sky Meadow (May 24-26)

More on the metamodern spirituality lab at www.skymeadowinstitute.org

Process theologian Jay McDaniel joins me to discuss the contributions of process thought to the Christian tradition. What points of similarity and dissimilarity are there between process thinking and traditional, modern, and postmodern lenses?

0:00 Introduction

1:06 What Does Theology Look Like from a "Process" Lens?

Relationship with Traditional Faith

5:44 A Feeling, Responding God

8:40 Not All-Powerful

14:40 A Dynamic, Living Whole

Relationship with Modern Thought

19:41 The Naturalistic Paradigm and (the) Beyond

24:30 A Theology of Organism and Complexity

29:30 "God" as Counter-Entropic Lure and Preserver of Good

39:33 A Modern Gestalt for Christianity?

49:31 Looking Forward, Not Back

54:52 The Pathos of God

Relationship with Postmodern Thought

1:04:38 Play, Beauty, Reality

Relationship with Metamodernism

1:10:33 Lineages, Legacies, and Futures

1:14:40 Conclusion

Here I lay out my conception of what a metamodern version of Christianity looks like. Drawing on the insights of all the previous cultural paradigms, the revelation of God's nature and the deepening quality of the relationship between God and man can be understood as progressing through a series of covenants/dispensations that map to a learning process unfolding through time. Such a perspective helps us non-arbitrarily coordinate tribal, imperial, traditional, modern, and postmodern conceptions of God that have manifested across sacred history. All of these are necessary and contribute to a coherent story of deepening understanding about and relationship with the ever-transcendent Divine.

0:00 Introduction

0:56 "Metamodern"

5:50 "Christianity"

9:00 Sacred History as Learning and Expansion

11:43 Dynamics of Learning: Assimilation and Accomodation

16:47 Learning as Complexification of Thought

18:04 The Revelation of God as a Learning Process

24:34 1. The Sacred Relationship in the Tribal Epoch

26:12 2. Relationship with God in the Monarchy

29:02 3. Deepening Divine Relationship in the Prophets and Gospels

31:10 Recap: The Arc of Learning God Better

33:41 4. Revelation in the Modern Era

40:05 5. The Way of Jesus in Postmodernity

42:09 6. Metamodern Christianity: Embracing All Stages of Revelation

53:37 Conclusion

In this episode, I assume the modern historical-critical perspective with pastor and 'This Little Corner of the Internet' thinker Paul VanderKlay to explore the tension points it has with the traditional-devotional lens--and to consider if and how these impasses might be transcended. Does history matter to faith and to the faithful? If so, how, when, and why? Can we avoid equivocating discussions around the "reality" of Christianity? How crucial is the nonrational? Overall, we rehearse what challenges the traditional approach to Christianity faces as it develops into modern expressions and interpretations on the way towards a metamodern instantiation.

0:00 Introduction

0:55 The "God Pivot" and Metamodernism: The Missing Modern

7:39 How Does Faith Relate to Modern & Postmodern Critical Approaches?

24:30 The Reality of Religion in Different Psycho-Social Contexts

36:18 Reality vs. History: Language as Metaphor or Fact

52:38 Worldview, Rationality, and Projection

1:04:28 "Spirit": False Substance Reification vs. Real Transjective Relationality

1:07:22 Avoiding Equivocation and Taking Modern Science Seriously

1:20:59 Pragmatic and Developmental Hermeneutics

1:44:16 Nonrationality and the Meaning Crisis

1:59:15 Different Metamodern Spiritual Arcs: The Theological is Personal

2:16:00 Conclusion

Gregg Henriques and I talk about the release of his new book UTOK: The Unified Theory of Knowledge through Sky Meadow Press. We discuss how this book is different from other works Gregg has written, its aesthetic nod to the classic alchemical tradition, and the arc of his journey from hard-nosed materialism to metamodern metatheoretical mythopoeia. We talk about UTOK through the lens of personal mythology and religio and the grand takeaway about the nature of meaning and the sacred from such a system.

The book is available at https://www.skymeadowinstitute.org/press

0:00 Introduction

0:28 UTOK: The Unified Theory of Knowledge Published by Sky Meadow Press

2:56 An Accessible, Aesthetic Primer for UTOK

6:32 Big Picture Thinking and Metamodern Alchemy

16:27 From Modern Materialist Reductionism to Metamodern Emergent Mythos

22:20 Life and Calling: Personal Myth and "Building the Cathedral"

27:08 Avoiding the Pitfalls of Imaginal/Archetypal Projects

34:10 Relating to Meaning and the Sacred

38:32 Mythos and Logos: Waking up to a New Worldview

44:21 Ritual and Praxis in a Time Between Worlds

48:07 UTOK as Framework for Religio

50:44 Mythopoeia admidst the Desire for Tradition

56:46 UTOK...? So What? The Miracle of Self Knowing the World

1:07:09 Conclusion

In this episode, I offer my own take on the "God Pivot" towards Christianity in the Intellectual Dark Web and adjacent communities (e.g., the liminal web, "This Corner of the Internet," and beyond). Reflecting on my recent interview with Jordan Hall, I see something glaringly absent from the broader conversation: the modern historical-critical perspective. Therefore, I ask: 1) How does the Traditional-Devotional perspective differ from the Modern Historical-Critical one with regard to the Old and New Testaments? 2) What might a metamodern Christianity look like that could successfully and syngergistically toggle between these different lenses to yield something progressive and robust?

0:00 Introduction

4:40 Hermeneutic Lenses: The Traditional-Devotional and Modern Historical-Critical Perspectives

7:46 Old Testament: Traditional-Devotional

13:13 Old Testament: Modern Historical-Critical

32:01 New Testament: Traditional-Devotional

37:53 New Testament: Modern Historical-Critical

47:58 Implications and Synthesis

Following a recent conversion to Christianity, Jordan Hall offers his perspective on the Christian worldview, its orienting beliefs and how they inform (and affirm) ways of being in the world. Brendan brings his own background of being raised in and and leaving the church to the conversation, trying to gain deeper understanding about how one can affirm Christian doctrine in the context of a metamodern world.

0:00 Introduction

2:47 Faith and Understanding: Christian Propositional vs. Participatory Knowing

15:36 Beyond a "Religion vs. Reason" Debate

20:26 Jordan's Reasons to Believe: Scripture, History, 1st Person Experience*

30:36 Jordan Not Impressed by Naturalistic Challenge to the Resurrection

35:56 Notions of Gospel and Sin: Faith Changing Behavior --- For Good or Ill

41:53 Jordan's Rejection of Naturalism and His Faith in Christian Historicity and Ontology

52:21 (Brendan Has a Lot of Responses He Won't Get Into in This Context)

53:07 Self-Confirming Faith: Reciprocal Opening in Other Faiths?

1:02:32 Excursus: Historicity and Hermeneutics of the Doctrine of the Trinity

1:08:52 Self-Confirming Faith: Pathologies in Self-Justifying Beliefs

1:16:20 Self-Confirming Faith: Participatory Knowing and Confirmation Bias

1:27:53 Conclusion

Patrick Barry joins me to continue our discussion about the emerging contours of a metamodern wisdom school and the secular spirituality beginning to fill in the "missing tradition" between and beyond science and religion. 0:00 Introduction

0:34 Towards a Secular Spirituality

5:01 Awe and Mystery in Both Religion and Science

10:25 "Faith" in What Is

17:18 Being Naturally At Home in the Universe

27:08 Past Church and Academia: Forging a New Kind of Wisdom Institution

46:21 A New Story: A Self-Appreciating Cosmos

58:40 Meaning as Awe as Learning

1:04:18 Significance vs. Scale

1:09:58 Speculating on God and Telos: Finding Ourselves in the Depths of Being

1:24:23 Conclusion

Stephen Hicks, a professor of philosophy and author of Explaining Postmodernism, joins me to discuss the transformation of worldviews from the premodern to the modern and from the modern to the postmodern. After his incisive overview of these dramatic shifts, we discuss what it might look like to integrate the genuinely positive contributions of postmodern thought, and consider where we are headed in a post-postmodern world. 0:00 Introduction 1:58 How to Trace Philosophical History 4:15 From Premodern to Modern 15:56 From Modern to Postmodern 34:07 How Do We Move Beyond the Modern and Postmodern while Integrating Their Strengths? 43:28 Relativizing the Critique 51:14 Living After Postmodernism

Patrick Barry, a former science journalist and current coder for the popular Waking Up meditation app, joins me to talk about building wisdom communities and Stoas for secular spirituality. As those who claim no affiliation with organized religion (the "nones") are now the most populous religious identity in America, what institutions of meaning, virtue, and self-reflection might we see appear that can properly meet the needs of metamodern seekers? 0:00 Introduction 4:13 Stoicism, Empiricism, and Secular Spirituality: Towards a Sacred Naturalism 12:55 Science and the Sublime: Finding Significance in the Known 22:52 The Missing Tradition 27:02 Wisdom Gyms for Lived Philosophy: Adding 1st- and 2nd-Person Truths to 3rd-Person Fact 51:30 Know Thyself: A Second Curriculum 57:44 "Broicism"?: Shadow and the Developmental Conveyor Belt 1:03:27 Integrating Tradition and Myth 1:12:02 Stoicism in Metamodernity 1:15:15 Conclusion

I'm joined by Integral thinker, theorist, teacher, writer, and community elder Bruce Alderman to talk about the ongoing love/hate relationship between metamodernism and Integral Theory, especially as the debate has been stirred up anew by the publication of my new book Metamodernism: Or, The Cultural Logic of Cultural Logics. Here we tackle some of the ongoing controversies that continue to swirl in some parts of the metamodern discourse, especially around the degree to which Ken Wilber and his formulation of the post-postmodern does/does not, should/should not inform our understanding of theories of the metamodern. Given the relationship that does exist, how do we best acknowledge and utilize it in pragmatic and integrous ways? How do we properly parse and distinguish these post-postmodern paradigms? What are the genuine fault lines and distinguishing characteristics of each framework, and what's just meme fluff?

0:00 Introduction (1:16, 3:30 Bruce card)

1:55 Bruce's Integral Context/Background

5:06 Brendan's Metamodern Context/Background

8:07 Did Hanzi Just Rip Off Wilber?

13:03 Did Hanzi Just Steal the Term "Metamodern" for an Integral Framework?

25:26 Has the Ship Sailed? Could Metamodernism Be the Future of Integral?

42:48 Did Brendan Just Excise/Ignore Wilber?

51:33 Does Metamodernism Offer a Workable Social Science Where Integral Doesn't?

1:01:03 The "Woo" Factor

1:14:15 Conclusion

Embodiment practitioner and teacher Ēlen Awalom joins me to talk about the promise and necessity of bringing more embodied wisdom into our world and, especially, our online spaces. We consider some approaches one can use in the context of triggering or polarizing engagements in digital forums in an attempt to return the focus back to the body and lived emotional experience in very disembodied contexts. Finally, we talk in broad terms about the importance of increasing our somatic intelligence in all areas of life, whether that's in response to the meta-crisis or our own interpersonal relationships.

0:00 Introduction

2:00 Bringing More Embodiment to Metamodern Discourse

9:13 Responding with Somatic Intelligence: Step 1. Center Yourself and Feel the Emotion

16:47 Step 2. Respond with Open Questions

20:00 Step 3. Use "I Statements"

23:15 Step 4. Know When to Step Back

31:20 The Challenge of Bypassing

36:19 Intentions for Embodied Leadership

50:19 Conclusion

Whitehead scholar and process thinker Matt Segall joins me to deepen our conversation about responses to the meaning crisis as it relates to reconnecting cosmos, consciousness, and value. In this discussion, we dive into the topic of "prehension," an idea from Whitehead that posits an experiential component to all phenomena in the universe.

0:00 Introduction

5:08 Prehension: Not Interior, but the Interior/Exterior Bridge

12:06 Prehension and Panpsychism

16:27 Identifying Basal Experience: Subjectivity and Time

25:52 Experience and Complexity

33:40 Attempting to Describe Fundamental Experience

47:06 Is Time Subjective?

54:36 Metaphysics and Novelty: Evolving Laws?

1:00:16 The Spectrum of Consciousness

1:04:22 Whitehead vs. Anthroposophy?

1:10:28 Philosophy's Role in a Scientific Age

1:21:43 Next Steps

Matt Segall joins me to debate the relative merits of "anthroposophical" aproaches to addressing the meaning crisis, such as those adopted in the works of Steiner, Stein and Gafni, and, to some degree, Whitehead.

0:00 Introduction

4:15 Revisiting the Image of Nature: Revitalizing Romanticism?

12:00 Humans in a Cosmos or a Cosmos Known by Humans?

21:17 Is Mechanism Just a Part of the Process? Emergence All the Way Down

30:05 Advance or Regression? Thinking in Terms of Assimilation and Accomodation

38:13 Defining a "Mechanistic" Approach: The Minimal Need for Causality

41:17 Retrojecting Novelty into Primals? Positing "Prehension"

57:01 Upshot: So...Is the Universe Expanding or Not?

1:11:52 Against a Model--or ...Models?

1:17:13 What Does an "Emodied" Knowledge Entail?

1:25:25 Conclusion

Dr. Michael Mascolo is a developmental psychologist who has written on hierarchical complexity as well as "moral relationalism." In this conversation, we discuss the Dynamic Skill Theory of cognitive complexification before considering what it might mean for moral reasoning. We debate the normative implications of complexification itself, navigating the polar extremes of moral absolutism and moral relativism using a transjective framing. What value is there in tracing value itself down the evolutionary stack? What does this suggest about agency and free will? 0:00 Introduction

0:46 Hierarchical Complexity: Dynamic Skill Theory vs. MHC

9:48 Domains of Development: Particulars and Generalizations

16:00 The Moral Domain

19:47 What is a "Skill"? What is...Anything?

23:33 Is Complexity Normative?

32:48 Moral Relativism vs. Moral Relationalism

43:04 Ontological Normativity

55:30 Where Does "Morality" Emerge in the Complexification Process?

1:04:16 Agency, Emergent Causation, and Free Will

1:11:43 Conclusion

Process thinker Matt Segall joins me again to continue our ongoing metaphysical exploration of a panmatheistic universe coming to self-knowledge. Here we discuss modern science's "blind spot" with regard to direct experience vs. scientific abstraction and the problem of "misplaced concreteness" before considering the proper understanding of the role of the human in the cosmos.

0:00 Introduction

2:02 "The Blind Spot": Mistaking Scientific Models for Reality

12:59 The Limits of Abstraction: From Idea to Feeling

34:18 Learning as Movement from Concrete to Abstract

46:00 Quantum Mechanics, Misplaced Concreteness, and Conceptual Prehension

58:16 The Will of the Universe to Wake Up: Towards Anthropos + Christ

1:11:03 Towards a 360° Platonism

1:20:50 Art, Incarnation, and the Face of God

1:33:09 Next Questions

Jared Morningstar discusses the nexus of metamodernism and the Islamic tradition with me, using his recent essay for Emerge (linked below) as a way into the topic. We explore multi-perspectival approaches to traditionalism, and what it means to integrate its insights in a metamodern context. Jared also brings to bear his knowledge of process thought to the topic.

0:00 Introduction

1:43 Washing the Heel

12:06 Insight from the Past, or Salvaging from the Future?

15:45 Attractions to Different Religiosities Based on Biography

29:52 Pluralism and Dogma

37:10 The Dialectic of Autonomy and Constraint

34:52 Ritual and Ontology: Angels

46:42 Islam and Process Theology

57:23 From Traditional (+ Anti-Modern) to Modern to Postmodern

1:12:36 Towards a Metamodern Islam

1:18:30 Follow Jared's Work

Bonnitta Roy and I explore the meaning of complexification and the evolutionary narrative. After some introductory context on Bonnie's prior engagement in the "scene" of integrative metatheory, we find our way to the topic of teleology (i.e., the apparent goal-directedness of nature). From there Bonnie outlines some of the pivotal mutations in the evolutionary narrative that have increased organism's capacity for abstraction. We discuss whether the directionality of these processes is captured in models of hierarchical complexity, or if other sorts of maps are needed to appreciate the evolution of mind.

0:00 Introduction

1:37 Bonnie's Background in Integrative Metatheory

12:30 On Integral vs. Metamodern: Problems with Stage Theories

17:53 On (Apparent) Teleology

21:00 The Story of Pivotal Mutations Up the Evolutionary Stack

31:22 Teleology* towards Increasing Causal Power

41:09 Getting Beyond Thoughts: Pure Abstractions vs. Categorical Abstractions

45:30 Information and Pure Abstractions: Direct Perception of the Causal Manifold

49:55 Is Increasing Hierarchical Complexity Getting Closer to the Causal Manifold?

1:03:27 Complexification as Recursively Finding New Vantage Points

1:12:38 Increasing Degrees of Freedom without Increasing Complexity?

1:15:22 Intimations and Afterthoughts: Directions for Further Discussion

Could AI become conscious? Is it already? Everyone seems to be talking about this, yet little of the discussion is actually informed by grounded theories of consciousness and mind. In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Gregg Henriques, professor of psychology at James Madison University, originator of the unified theory of knowledge framework, and the author of 'A New Synthesis for Solving the Problem of Psychology' to talk about the prospect of consciousness in AI. After zeroing in on just what we mean by "consciousness" in this sense (to get past the endless equivocation commonly found in these discussions), Gregg and I get to the heart of the matter.

0:00 Introduction

2:00 The Question: Can AI Be(come) Conscious?

4:40 (Context: Gregg's Work to Address Confusions about Mind)

Part I: What Do We Mean By "Consciousness"?

8:33 Three Definitions:

9:07 (1) Cognition

18:08 (2) Subjective Conscious Experience (The One I Mean)

19:57 (3) Egoic Self-Consciousness

Part II: AI and Consciousness

23:08 Could AI Have (2) Subjective Conscious Experience?

29:00 Beyond the Turing Test Standard

33:10 Panpsychist and Idealist Challenges?

35:46 Functional Parallels Are Not Equivalence

37:50 Approaching the Fifth Joint Point

50:17 What Should We Value: Intelligence or Sentience?

Jason Ānanda Josephson Storm discusses conceptions of value after postmodernism. Is postmodernism a nihilistic relativism or an activist moralism? Critics have accused it of both. What values pervade the postmodern academic paradigm? How do value conceptions shift when the postmodern paradigm gets diffused in popular culture? Is the "is-ought distinction" actually valid? What would a positive value project look like, and what are its benefits? Finally, what comes next for metamodernism and Storm's work?

0:00 Introduction

0:52 Postmodernism: Relativist or Activist? Nihilist or Moralist?

9:11 Value vs. Critique

17:07 Politics and Academia

22:17 Postmodern Diffusions

31:04 Is vs. Ought: Who's Afraid of Normativity?

38:04 Systematic Metamodern Philosophy

43:08 Imagining a Positive Future: Ethics and Wisdom

55:55 How Can Academia Reincorporate Wisdom?

59:42:21 Towards a Paradigm Shift: The Future of Metamodernism

1:09:35 Paradigm Projects

1:14:49 What's Next?

Psychology professor and cognitive scientist John Vervaeke (@johnvervaeke) joins me to talk about how Neoplatonism (which has provided the worldview "grammar" of Western mysticism) is being revisioned in light of contemporary advances in philosophy, cognitive science, and cross-cultural exchange.

0:00 Introduction

1:21 Updating the Perennial Tradition

6:19 A Post-Two-Worlds Neoplatonism

12:20 "The One" according to 4E Cognitive Science

20:16 Ascent and Descent

26:05 Complexification as Narrative? Creating a Psycho-Ontology

36:01 Nonduality, Meaning, and Nihilism

44:30 Death and (Re-)Incarnation

53:11 After Life

Metamodern sociologist Daniel Görtz joins Brendan Graham Dempsey to dig deeper into the nuances of developmental theory and how it can be applied at the individual and collective levels. Are individuals "at" a stage of development, or do they occupy a range of complexity? With all the distributional ranges involved in individual development, how can we make assessments about entire cultural worldviews? Daniel digs into the nuances of the Model of Hierarchical Complexity, exploring unpublished theories and ideas of Michael Commons and himself as they relate to thinking about conceptual complexification for people and societies.

0:00 Introduction

Part I: Individual Development

2:28 Are People "at" a Stage or Thinking/Behaving Across a Distribution?

5:12 The MHC vs. Holistic, Whole-Person Models

10:11 Transjective Behavioral Complexity: Context and Scaffolding

25:17 Cognitive Ranges, Cognitive Ceilings

30:22 Piaget and Beyond

Part II: Cultural Development

33:04 Are Ideas "at" a Stage?

42:16 Are Cultural Worldviews "at" a Stage?

56:44 The Dynamics of Cultural Evolution

1:20:36 Pattern and Medium

1:32:16 Problems and Progress: Nothing for Granted

Jason Ānanda Josephson Storm is an historian and philosopher, Professor of Religion and Chair of Science & Technology Studies at Williams College. He returns to continue our conversation about his book Metamodernism: The Future of Theory, a bold proposal for a post-postmodern paradigm.

0:00 Introduction

1:46 Is Postmodernism a Paradigm or an Episteme?

17:15 Hylosemiotics (Cont.): Matter and Meaning

29:41 From Realism vs. Anti-Realism to Metarealism

59:46 Zetetic Knowledge vs. Skepticism

Raymond de Oliveira joins Brendan to discuss the value in the Universe, whether it emerges from the logic of reality itself or is arbitrarily chosen, whether existence is inherently of value, nihilism and Buddhism, the QRI grand narrative of replicators vs. consciousness, the role of suffering in wisdom, and the "Three Realms" of conscious experience.

0:00 Introduction

1:43 From Is to Ought?

9:17 Is Life a Net Negative? Utilitarianism, Gnosticism, Transhumanism

22:30 Dual-Aspect Monism and Suffering

25:52 Is Consciousness Worth It?

31:00 Teleology and Agency

32:58 Fighting a Meme War against Potential Gods

36:50 Values and Vows

40:03 The Law of Choice

42:36 Is Wisdom Earned by Suffering?

Nihilism and the Truth of Silenus?

Science Fiction critic, storyteller, and writer Damiel Walter joins Brendan to talk about 'Big Myth' and the culture industry's relationship to contemporary mythopoeia. What are the new stories of our time, what depth and "nutrients" do they contain (if any), and how does myth get transformed through the cultural codes? More than that, what myths do we live by, and why? What sorts of mythic archetypes does our cultural moment particularly need to better navigate the difficulties and challenges of the time?

0:00 Introduction

0:51 Franchise Myth

6:20 The Mythic-Industrial Complex vs. Modern Folklore

13:02 Stories vs. Myths

16:47 Mytho-Pathos, Values, and Metamodernism

26:22 Multiplicity, Mythos, Meaning, and "Me"

37:37 Hallmarks of Metamodern Myth: Embodiment, Ethics, Affect

45:44 The Hero, Masculinity, and Development

50:34 The Creator Archetype

Social imaginarian Ellie Hain joins me to talk about her new project, Rebuilding Meaning, a multi-layered endeavor to rethink meaning, value, and the sacred in a way that can help bring color and vibrancy back to existence and cut through the proliferation of bullshit in modern life. We talk about moving from paradigm thinking to the crafting of ideology, the nature and reality of the meaning crisis, what is meant by "the sacred," the idea of "the void," social norms vs. emergent value, and what it looks like to architect new cultural realities for the future.

0:00 Introduction

0:58 From Mapping Social Imaginaries to Articulating Ideologies

7:36 New Myths

10:30 Is There Actually a Meaning Crisis?

17:01 The Sacred, the Profane, and the Meaningful

22:46 The Void: Chaos and Possibility

28:34 Rigid Social Norms vs. Emergent Autonomy

35:10 Creating New Systems

41:37 Follow-Through

46:32 Imagining a Beautiful Future

55:25 A Values-Driven Pluralism

Rafe Kelley and I discuss his recent transformational experiences with Christianity, then consider the best sense-making frames for such life-altering religious experiences. What are the role of Christianity's traditional propositional claims relative to direct experiential encounters with the Christ archetype? Can the activation of transformational memetic archetypes actually require acting "as if" some false claims are true?

0:00 Introduction

2:06 Character: Who Do You Want to Be?

7:08 Rafe's Background

30:35 The Christian Lure in the West

49:56 Mythos and Logos

1:03:25 Rafe's Conversion

1:16:45 Experience vs. Theology

1:26:17 Faith and the Transhistorical

1:39:22 Toggling into the Christ Archetype

1:47:17 Metamemes, Consciousness, and Believing "As If"

1:57:18 Building the Cathedral

2:03:58 Conclusion

Jason Ānanda Josephson Storm is an historian and philosopher, Professor of Religion and Chair of Science & Technology Studies at Williams College. He received his PhD from Stanford University and his MA from Harvard University. He joins Brendan to discuss his work of systematic metamodern philosophy, 'Metamodernism: The Future of Theory.'

0:00 Introduction

2:34 What "Metamodernism"?

7:55 A Metamodern Attractor

9:40 The Postmodern Paradigm

15:58 Deconstructing Deconstruction: The Anarchist's Cookbook to Destroy Concepts

26:33 Reconstructing from the Pieces

29:40 Going Meta

36:57 After Deconstruction: From Objects to Processes

45:21 Development as Identity? Contingency and the Genetic Fallacy

59:34 Meaning after the "Linguistic Turn": Hylosemiotics + a World

Jonathan Rowson of Perspectiva joins Brendan for a conversation about the nature of spirituality in the contemporary public square, the boundaries of the social imaginary, the thirst for spiritual conversation and community in a secular world, religion and epistemic justification, the religious impulse of submission vs. the modern ego, what taking the meta view on a multi-perspectival religious landscape might mean, the divine contribution of the individual/individuating will, and much else.

0:00 Introduction

2:04 Exploring (the Absence of) Spirituality in Public Space Today

9:47 Defining Spirituality

14:22 The Elephant in the Room

20:24 A More Justified Worldview? Modernity vs. Traditional Religion

31:26 Truth and Value in the Public Domain

36:02 Transrational Submission or Individuation?

44:50 Both Both/And and Either/Or: Religion, Committment, and Multi-Perspectival Awareness

53:32 Mystery, Reality, Plurality, and Transcendence

57:35 Pluralism, Committment, and the Creative Will of the Metamodern Self

1:08:43 Metamodernity as Spirituality

1:14:38 Closing Remarks

In their first-ever conversation on the topic together, Daniel Görtz and Nora Bateson join Brendan to talk about stage theory. Since Nora's social media post declaring developmental stage theories "BS" and "colonial as hell," the value and legitimacy of stage models has been a fervent topic of debate within the liminal web. In this conversation, Daniel and Nora are given space to more completely express their opinions on the topic before engaging with one another directly in discussion/debate in an attempt to gain a deeper appreciation and integration of one another's views. 

0:00 Introduction

2:57 Daniel's Opening Remarks

17:42 Nora's Opening Remarks

35:27 Discussion

1:17:59 Parting Remarks

Bobby Azarian joins Brendan to discuss his new book The Romance of Reality: How the Universe Organizes Itself to Create Life, Consciousness, and Cosmic Complexity. In the first half of their conversation, Bobby presents the new cosmic narrative offered by the complexity sciences. Unlike the older, reductionist account, this is a story in which life is inevitable and part of a broader cosmic design towards greater and greater knowledge creation. Beginning with the laws of thermodynamics, Bobby recounts the emergence of order out of (and by means of) chaos; the emergence of life out of ordered structures; and the emergence of consciousness out of life. In the second part of the conversation, the two speculate on the broader significance and meaning of this new cosmic narrative. Have we only seen the beginning of the Universe's waking up? Why does the Universe appear fine-tuned for its own coming to consciousness? How do these ideas relate to religion and purpose?

0:00 Introduction

PART I: The Narrative

5:40 Entropy, Energy, and Order out of Chaos

11:47 Order for Entropy, or Entropy for Order?

18:15 The Inevitability of Life

23:00 Reductionism or Creationism? A Third Option

40:40 Evolution, (Self-)Knowledge, and Consciousness

PART II: Implications & Speculations

1:00:11 The Emergence of a Cosmic Mind

1:08:36 Modernist Transhumanism or Metamodernist Spirituality?

1:18:18 What Set Up a Self-Organizing Universe?

--- 1:21:07 A Multiverse Explanation?

--- 1:24:34 Cosmological Natural Selection?

--- 1:29:00 An Intelligent Programmer (AKA "God")?

--- 1:44:48 Cosmic Mind Creating Cosmic Mind?

--- 1:47:21 The Fall of Consciousness into Unconsciousness, and Its Return to Self-Knowledge

1:51:28 Final Thoughts

More on Bobby's work:

The book: https://www.theromanceofreality.com/

Application to society: https://roadtoomega.com/

James Cussen, creator of the @The Living Philosophy YouTube channel, talks to Brendan about metamodernism within the context of intellectual history, the relationship of philosophy to academia, the need for wisdom schools, and much else.

Nish Dubashia joins Brendan to discuss the topic of evolutionary spirituality, using the Spiral Dynamics framework to consider how religious conceptions evolve through the different value memes. Beginning with a synopsis of the basic structure of the religious narrative, Nish then shows how this story takes different forms as it finds expression through the different developmental stages. The progression charted, some important ideas are then considered: What is the relationship of self and spirit along this evolution? Does the spiral of development lead to some kind of non-dual awareness? If so, how do we understand this? What role might evolutionary spirituality play in our broader culture?  

0:00 Introduction 0:54 The Structure of the Story of Religion  

The Story at Different Levels: 

8:11 The Story at PURPLE (Animist) 9:43 The Story at RED (Faustian) 12:04 The Story at BLUE (Post-Faustian) 15:10 The Story at ORANGE (Modern) 17:44 The Story at GREEN (Postmodern) 22:50 The Story at YELLOW (Metamodern) 26:21 The Story at TURQOISE (forthcoming?)  

28:47 Religion and Development: A Universal Experience 31:20 The Evolution of Religious Narrative AS a Religious Narrative? 35:10 The Coevolution of Self and Spirit 38:02 Spirit as a Subject? Reification, Projection, and Myth 44:00 The End of the Story: Non-Duality? 50:08 Emptiness/Form: On the Evolution of Consciousness towards Ultimate Consciousness 1:03:00 Development and the Study of Religion 1:06:08 Evolutionary Spirituality and the Meaning Crisis 1:14:15 'Dancing with Angels': Nish's Book on Developing beyond Unhealthy Blue 1:21:39 More on Nish's Work/Upcoming Events  

Nish's Presentation: The Evolution of Religion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3X20WGbMAw 

Nish's Website https://integraldream.com/

Andrés Gómez Emilsson of the Qualia Research Institute joins Brendan to discuss "the universal plot": what's it all about and what matters most? Andrés says the big story is one of consciousness vs. pure replicators, the struggle to resist brute, value-neutral replication processes and maximize instead the positive valence possibilities of universal consciousness. Andrés considers how this narrative emerges as the most nuanced and developmentally advanced of the various ethical stories of the past (compared to "Good vs. Evil," for instance), and considers some of the theoretical/philosophical axioms on which it's based. What then is the relationship between consciousness and replication? How do we ensure we privilege positive conscious states over parasitic replication? How does it relate to the evolution of consciousness, and avoid the pitfalls of asceticism?  

0:00 Introduction  2:21 The Universal Plot at Different Levels 16:17 What is the Relationship of Consciousness to Replication? 24:07 What is the Source of Valence if not the Replication Impulse? 26:55 What is the Telos of the Evolution of Consciousness? 30:44 Integrating Replication with Consciousness 36:48 Towards Omega: How do We Engineer Paradise?  48:13 Critique 1: Evolutionary Complexity vs. Human Intellectual Hubris 54:00 Critique 2: Is this Just Gnosticism 2.0? 57:18 A Developmental Metanarrative  

"A Universal Plot - Consciousness vs. Pure Replicators: Gene Servants or Blissful Autopoietic Beings?" video mentioned in the podcast: https://youtu.be/nGmETz-wDMc 

"The Universal Plot: Consciousness vs. Pure Replicators" blog post mentioned in the podcast: https://www.qualiaresearchinstitute.org/blog/universal-plot

Matt Segall joins Brendan to talk about the relationship of process philosophy and the thinking of A. N. Whitehead to the formulation of an emerging metanarrative in metamodernity. In the context of our 13.7 billion years of emergent complexification, how does the story of consciousness evolution relate to issues such as dualism and the hard problem of consciousness, panpsychism, divine creativity, and mystical union?  Matt Segall's faculty bio:  Matthew D. Segall, PhD, received his doctoral degree in 2016 from the Philosophy, Cosmology, and Consciousness program at CIIS. His dissertation was titled Cosmotheanthropic Imagination in the Post-Kantian Process Philosophy of Schelling and Whitehead. It grapples with the limits to knowledge of reality imposed by Kant's transcendental form of philosophy and argues that Schelling and Whitehead's process-oriented approach (described in his dissertation as a "descendental" form of philosophy) shows the way across the Kantian threshold to renewed experiential contact with reality. He teaches courses on German Idealism and process philosophy for the Philosophy, Cosmology, and Consciousness program at CIIS. He blogs regularly at footnotes2plato.com.

Layman Pascal returns to discuss the relationship of Nietzsche's thought to integral and metamodern frameworks in light of recent debates with the "Dark Renaissance." Is there a pre/trans fallacy in Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals? What's the connection between the Will to Power and Whitehead's "Creativity" or Wilber's "Eros"? How does the meaning of "power" change across the metamemes and up the stack of complexity?

Brendan Graham Dempsey talks to Julyan Davey about his immensely prescient and rich essay, "Towards a Metamodern Spirituality," a must-read for anyone interested in the topic of religion and spirituality in metamodernity: https://medium.com/the-phoenix-project/towards-a-metamodern-spirituality-6d71f958a2e0.

Neil Theise joins me to talk about his book Notes on Complexity: A Scientific Theory of Connection, Consciousness, and Being. As a liver pathologist gazing daily through his microscope, Neil lives in an ongoing liminal state between scales: the micro cellular and the macro organismic. How is it, he asks, that any given "thing" seems to disappear when you zoom in or out? Neil brings a complexity science lens to this issue of lensing, which he synthesizes with his longterm practice of Zen meditation to interesting conclusions. Is this processual "no-thing-ness" what the Buddhists speak of as "emptiness"? What is the "I" if it can be similarly deconstructed? What insights can meditation add to the metaphysical picture once we appreciate the limits of other ways of knowing?

0:00 Introduction

0:57 Spark-'Notes on Complexity'

4:30 Neil's Interdisciplinary Background

14:33 Body or Cells? Scale, Process, and (Relative) No-Thing-ness

40:29 "Self" and Complimentarity

50:03 Self and the Limits of Science: Consciousness and Quantum Physics

56:24 Self and the Limits of Mathematics: Incompleteness and Intuition

1:08:45 Can Meditative Practice Reveal Metaphysical Realities?

1:26:51 No Separation

Theory and ritual artist Scoutleader Wiley talks to Brendan about metamodern magick, a post-postmodern psychotechnology of re-enchantment that utilizes ironic sincerity and informed naivete to (re)connect us with meaning and the Earth. How can we engage with ritual and mythos beyond superstition and gullibility? What ends does ritual accomplish that a purely rational and objective stance to experience cannot? How can laughing at ourselves help us take the sacred seriously?

0:00 Introduction

1:36 A Need for New Rituals: Personal and Communal Meaning-Making

9:05 Magic vs. Magick: Objective vs. Transjective Transformation

15:26 Acausal-Representational Systems (ARS)

18:52 Regenerative Reverence: An "As If" Spirituality

35:09 "Make Coffee Like You Give a Fuck": Creating Ritual and Living Mindfully

44:23 Spiritual Vulnerability and Ironic Sincerity

47:51 Necessary Subversion

Dr. Gregg Henriques talks to Brendan about his Unified Theory of Knowledge (UTOK) framework and how it promisingly contributes to the effort of articulating a sciency-friendly post-postmodern grand narrative for our confused and meaning-hungry times. Gregg helps clarify points of overlap as well as distinction between other post-postmodern maps, while zeroing in on the specific existential challenge of our day, which UTOK clarifies and contextualizes. Finally, the two consider how we might, through ironic sincerity, co-create a set of living symbols that can help teach the full "wisdom stack" we'll need to not only survive but thrive beyond the imminent transformations of the metaverse and the "digital identity problem."

0:00 Introduction

1:31 Overview of the Unified Theory of Knowledge (UTOK)

7:18 UTOK and Metamodernism

15:46 UTOK and Integral Theory

28:08 Mapping the Complexification Domains

38:09 Brendan: How the Metanarrative Answers the Crisis of Psychological Studies

39:17 UTOK and the Integrated Information Theory of Consciousness

49:57 The "God" Question

58:06 A Spiritual Omega Point or Posthumanist Singularity? The Need for a Wisdom Stack

1:03:44 The Need for a New Mythology: A New Meaning amidst the Meaning Crisis

Joe Lightfoot talks to Brendan about the "Liminal Web," a term he coined for an emerging online community of metatheorists, systems poets, and sensemakers. Discussion quickly moves from mapping this online subculture to exploring its possible futures for deepening connection and embodiment. What are the potentials of purely virtual communitas? Are there in-person communal structures into which this online momentum might be transferred? What are the ingredients of successful communities more generally? What makes this loose network different than other would-be changemakers of the past? Where is it all going, and what is its significance?  

0:00 Introduction 

2:01 The Liminal Web 

4:55 Mapping Mapmakers: A Perspective on the Perspective-Takers 

7:48 A Certain Kind of Engagement 

9:45 Materializing the Meta-Tribe IRL 

25:38 Charitability, Development, and Exclusion 

35:57 Post-Postmodern Systems Change 

42:22 The Importance of Being Earnest: Heroic Humility and the Dao of Service 

56:26 Dancing Dialecticians and the Ever-Receding Absolute 

1:01:25 Sacred Simplicity Beyond Complexity

Feeling stuck in his meditation practice and looking for guidance from a 4th Path adept, Brendan talks again to Roger Thisdell, someone who has attained a new default experience of mind as permanently centerless and without the sense of a singly, positioned epistemic agent (i.e., what in traditional language might be called "enlightenment"). Both thought it might be helpful to explore some instructional guidance in a podcast setting, where the process could be shared for others' benefit. In this context, Roger asks some probing questions and offers some helpful tips and suggestions for cultivating awakening.   

0:00 Introduction 

2:54 Brendan Describes His Path and Motivation towards Waking Up 

9:12 (Clarifying Nonduality) 

12:22 Brendan Tries to Describe His Phenomenological Sense of Self 

16:47 Shifting Perspective through Thought 

21:50 Symbolizing Awakened Consciousness 29:45 Beyond Equanimity: Zeroing in on the "Self" 

40:54 The Uses of Conception to Change Perception 

42:39 Building Motivation 

48:07 Fire Kasina 

50:45 Being vs. Striving 

54:52 Building Metacognition 

59:11 Naming Our Motivations