Explore every episode of the podcast Messy Social Work
| Title | Pub. Date | Duration | |
|---|---|---|---|
| What social workers get wrong in court: Insights from family barrister Gemma Chapman | 11 sept. 2026 | 01:11:21 | |
In this episode, Richard Devine sits down with family law barrister Gemma Chapman to explore the intersection between social work, family justice and advocacy. Gemma shares her journey into family law, what she enjoys most about being a barrister, and some of the challenges that come with working in a complex and emotionally demanding field. Together, we discuss what makes an effective social worker, the qualities of a strong social work expert witness, and the common pitfalls practitioners can encounter when giving evidence in court. The conversation also examines an important distinction often misunderstood in practice: the difference between disclosure and allegations, and why this matters for assessment, decision-making and safeguarding children. We explore the role of legal representation within the family justice system, including how barristers advocate for clients while balancing professional duties and ethical responsibilities. Finally, Gemma reflects on the changes she would like to see in how services support children and families and offers valuable advice for social workers appearing in court. A thought-provoking conversation for social workers, managers, legal professionals, students, and anyone interested in improving outcomes for children and families. Key themes:
Guest: Gemma Chapman, Family Law Barrister | |||
| Rich and Tim relational skills, networks, theory and leadership in Family Group Decision Making | 03 sept. 2026 | 00:55:57 | |
In the second part of their Family Group Decision Making (FGDM) series, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore themes six to ten, moving beyond process and practice into the relational, cultural and leadership dimensions of family-led decision-making. The conversation explores:
Throughout the episode, Rich and Tim reflect on power, participation, relational ethics, community leadership and what happens when professionals move from being experts and problem-solvers towards becoming facilitators of conversation, connection and collective action. Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, coordinator, manager, therapist, community organiser or leader, this episode offers practical ideas and thoughtful reflections on building more relational, democratic and human-centred ways of working with children, families and communities. | |||
| Rich and Tim on Family Group Decision Making: Power, participation and family leadership | 30 août 2026 | 00:53:19 | |
In this episode, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore the first five themes of Family Group Decision Making (FGDM), unpacking the philosophy, values and practice wisdom behind one of the most significant relational approaches in children's and family services today. Together, they discuss the Māori origins of Family Group Conferencing in Aotearoa New Zealand and how FGDM has evolved into a strengths-based, family-led approach that places decision-making power closer to children, families and communities. The conversation explores:
Throughout the episode, Richard and Tim reflect on participatory democracy, relational practice, family power, professional humility and what becomes possible when we trust families and communities to mobilise their own strengths, networks and solutions. Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, manager, coordinator, therapist or community practitioner, this episode offers rich insights into how relational ways of working can create lasting change through conversation, connection and collective responsibility. | |||
| Peter Block: relationships, resistance and the relevance of 'Flawless Consulting' | 19 août 2026 | 01:02:38 | |
Flawless Consulting by Peter Block has sold more than a million copies and is widely regarded as one of the most influential books ever written about consulting. But what can a business classic teach social workers, practice leads, and change agents working in complex public services? In this episode, Rich and Tim put Peter Block's ideas to the test through two live consulting dilemmas drawn from their own work. Rich explores the challenge of leading a systemic practice transformation from within an organisation, where success depends less on training and more on culture change, relationships, and influencing without authority. Tim brings the perspective of an external consultant, working with local authorities to embed Family Group Decision-Making and create lasting change beyond the life of a contract. Together, they explore some of Peter's most enduring ideas: authentic contracting, resistance as valuable information, shared responsibility, and the difference between compliance and genuine commitment. Along the way, Peter challenges assumptions about expertise, accountability, and what it really takes to help organisations change. Whether you're an internal practice lead, an external consultant, a social work manager, or anyone trying to influence change without formal authority, this conversation offers practical wisdom from a thinker whose work remains as relevant today as when Flawless Consulting was first published. Topics include:
A conversation about consulting, culture change, and why one of the world's best-selling consulting books still has so much to say about social work. | |||
| Lee Crouch, a parent with lived experience of reunification: what social workers need to know | 31 juil. 2026 | 01:08:44 | |
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Practice lessons from the death of Victoria Marten (Part 2) | 24 juil. 2026 | 00:57:02 | |
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Practice lessons from the death of Victoria Marten | 17 juil. 2026 | 00:54:55 | |
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Connecting Research: Why social workers turn a blind eye and avoid mental pain in child protection | 13 juil. 2026 | 00:36:39 | |
Why do experienced professionals sometimes fail to see what is right in front of them? In this episode of Connecting Research, we explore Margaret Rustin's influential analysis of the Victoria Climbié case and her argument that professional failures in child protection are not simply the result of poor practice, incompetence, or inadequate procedures. Instead, they can reflect powerful psychological and organizational defenses against unbearable emotional realities. Drawing on psychoanalytic concepts including turning a blind eye, avoidance of mental pain, splitting, and mindlessness, we examine how exposure to child suffering can overwhelm practitioners' capacity to think, reflect, and act. Rustin invites us to consider how social workers, health professionals, police officers, and organizations can become caught in defensive processes that obscure the meaning of what they are seeing, even when the evidence of harm is available. The discussion explores what happens when thinking itself becomes painful, why anxiety can interfere with professional judgement, and how supervision, reflective spaces, and systemic support are essential if practitioners are to remain emotionally present with children who are suffering. Rather than locating blame solely in individuals, this episode asks how child protection systems can help workers bear the difficult realities of abuse, neglect, and trauma without turning away from them. A thought-provoking conversation about the emotional demands of child protection and what it takes to keep children in mind when the realities they face are hardest to bear. | |||
| Rich and Tim on uncertainty, relationships and 14 lessons from practice | 07 juil. 2026 | 00:42:07 | |
In this episode of the Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich and Tim discuss Richard's recent blog, 14 Lessons from 11 Years at Bath and North East Somerset Council, written as he prepares to leave frontline children's social work after more than a decade in B&NES and take up a leadership role in Solihull. Together, they explore fourteen reflections shaped by years of child protection practice, relationships with children and families, mistakes, uncertainty, and the ongoing challenge of working in complex systems. The conversation covers the limits of professional influence, learning to live with impossible demands, reducing harm rather than pursuing perfect safety, and why social workers themselves help create the system they often talk about. Rich and Tim also discuss authenticity with families, balancing compassion and accountability, the value of curiosity and "not knowing", the tensions at the heart of child protection work, and why meaningful change is often rooted in relationships rather than professional heroics. This is a thoughtful and honest conversation about what social work teaches us over time: how to tolerate uncertainty, stay connected to people, and hold onto what matters most when there are no easy answers. | |||
| Ex-undercover police officer on why the war on drugs is failing | 26 juin 2026 | 01:15:23 | |
In this episode, we’re joined by former undercover drugs officer Neil Woods to explore the ideas at the heart of his book Good Cop, Bad War. Drawing on over a decade working covertly inside drug markets, Neil gives a sobering account of how the “war on drugs” actually plays out on the ground - and why, in his view, it so often makes things worse rather than better. Neil talks about what he witnessed firsthand: the way enforcement can unintentionally strengthen organised crime, increase violence, and pull vulnerable people - especially children and young people - deeper into exploitation. He reflects on the disconnect between policy intentions and real-world impact, and how the system can end up targeting those with the least power while leaving wider harms untouched. We also explore the personal toll of this work. Neil shares his experiences of moral injury - the strain of repeatedly acting in ways that conflict with your sense of what is right - and his experience of complex PTSD. Turning to social work, we think about what all of this means for those supporting parents who use drugs. Rather than seeing substance use purely as a problem to be eradicated, this conversation invites a more reflective approach - one that understands the role drugs play in people’s lives, recognises the impact of trauma, and prioritises relationship-based, harm-reducing practice. This is an honest and thought-provoking discussion about policy, practice, and the unintended consequences of intervention - and a challenge to think differently about what helpful support really looks like for families. Contact Neil here: https://www.neilwoods.net/contact-neil-woods His book is available online and on audible | |||
| Gareth K Thomas, foster carer, on trauma informed parenting | 19 juin 2026 | 01:09:36 | |
In this episode, we sit down with foster carer Gareth K Thomas to explore his experiences of caring for children who have lived through trauma, and what it really means to offer trauma-informed care in practice. Gareth shares honest reflections on the realities of foster care - the rewards, the challenges, and the emotional impact of supporting children who have experienced adversity. We talk about how trauma shows up in behaviour, how carers can make sense of what they’re seeing, and the importance of staying curious, compassionate, and regulated in the face of difficult moments. The conversation also explores:
As ever, this is a grounded and thoughtful discussion that keeps the focus on real-life practice, not theory alone. Gareth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garethkthomas/ Gareth's website: Gareth's forthcoming book | |||
| Headlines form Mithran Samuel’s, and speak to social worker Ellen | 12 juin 2026 | 01:02:51 | |
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Rose Byrne on her upbringing, caring for her sister and being diagnosed with ADHD | 05 juin 2026 | 00:54:57 | |
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Maddy McCormack (Social Worker) on the realities of Child Protection Social Work | 22 mai 2026 | 00:56:11 | |
In this episode, we speak with Maddy McCormack, a social worker early in her career, about the realities of stepping into practice with children and families. Maddy reflects on her route into the role, what day-to-day social work actually looks like, and what she’s had to learn beyond training to be effective in her first year. We explore how she builds relationships with young people and their families, especially in contexts of risk, conflict, and uncertainty. She speaks candidly about the emotional demands of the work — including doubt, moral distress, and the cases that stay with you — and how this can shape thinking and practice under pressure. We also discuss what helps her stay relational when things are tough, what sustains her in the role, and the moments that remind her why the work matters. An honest conversation about learning on the job, staying human, and the emotional weight of social work. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Sharon Shoesmith about Baby P, blame and learning from tragedies | 15 mai 2026 | 01:10:34 | |
In this episode, we sit down with Sharon Shoesmith to revisit one of the most defining and contentious moments in modern child protection: the case of Baby P, and the national reaction that followed. Sharon reflects candidly on what it meant to become the focus of public anger—labelled, scrutinised, and ultimately removed from her role—despite leading a service that had been judged as “good” by Ofsted. We explore the personal toll of that experience and the powerful social and political forces that demand accountability in the wake of tragedy. Drawing on psychoanalytic and social theory, the conversation moves beyond headlines to examine how society processes—and often avoids—the reality of harm to children. We discuss the idea of social workers as “containers” for collective anxiety, the “pain of knowing” about abuse, and why narratives of professional failure can feel easier to accept than confronting human cruelty within families. We also interrogate the enduring legacy of the Baby P case: the rise of “never event” thinking, the political promise of certainty, and how fear has shaped systems that prioritise compliance over meaningful risk management. Along the way, Sharon challenges assumptions about gender and harm, reflects on what remains unlearned, and offers a clear-eyed perspective on leadership in conditions defined by uncertainty. This is a thoughtful, at times uncomfortable conversation about blame, denial, grief, and what it really means to safeguard children in a complex world. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| An introduction to Systemic Ideas in Social Work with student Natasha Dube and author Liz Bosanquet | 08 mai 2026 | 01:22:09 | |
In this episode of the Messy Social Work podcast, we begin with a conversation with Natasha Dube, before Rich and Tim discuss Liz Bosanquet’s new book, Systemic Social Work Practice. The discussion explores how systemic ideas can move beyond theory and into everyday practice, helping practitioners think relationally about families, organisations and the wider systems shaping people’s lives. A conversation about curiosity, context, relationships and what systemic practice looks like in the reality of social work. Link to Book https://uk.jkp.com/products/systemic-social-work-practice Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim discuss time management (Part 2) | 06 mai 2026 | 00:45:23 | |
In this second bonus episode, Rich, Tim and Charlotte build directly on Part 1, turning their attention to the four remaining ideas from Rich’s blog on resilience in social work and exploring how these play out in practice. The conversation moves beyond individual productivity and into the ethical and emotional costs of working under sustained pressure. Drawing on Vikki Reynolds’ work, the episode explores burnout not as a personal failing, but as a response to spiritual pain, moral distress and ethical trespassing – the harm that occurs when social workers are repeatedly required to act against their values within constrained systems. Together, they reflect on how time pressure, risk management and organisational demands can quietly erode meaning, solidarity and hope, and why self‑care alone is never enough. Instead, the focus shifts to collective ethics, justice‑doing, and mutual accountability, asking what helps social workers remain human, connected and sustainable in the work. The episode closes with a reframing of resilience – not as coping better alone, but as finding ways to work in solidarity, uphold shared values, and resist the pull towards isolation, cynicism or burnout in systems that are often set up to make ethical practice hard. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Time management ideas that DEFINITELY & FINALLY allow you to get on top of your work | 01 mai 2026 | 01:00:29 | |
This episode explores time management as both a practical challenge and a lived experience in social work. Rich shares techniques such as Stephen Covey’s urgent and important quadrants, Cal Newport’s time blocking and the difference between deep and shallow work, while also being honest about how difficult these are to sustain in real practice. The conversation moves into presence, stress and pragmatism, recognising that social workers are often pulled between statutory timelines, emotional labour, family needs and constant interruptions. Tim brings in Barbara Adam’s work on time and temporality, alongside Shakespeare’s “time is out of joint”, to describe how stress can alter our experience of time. The episode ends with the idea that time management is not only about productivity, but about how we remain present, realistic and human in demanding systems. Drawing Futures Barbara Adam and Seth Oliver https://graffeg.com/products/drawing-futures?srsltid=AfmBOorYwNJGBZKMmdWO1VEy2_b7YP2ZiTSzlXNqHfxBM8byjHNQAJVb ............... Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim discuss what Rich learned from 6 years of journaling (Part Two) | 27 avr. 2026 | 00:46:05 | |
This bonus episode picks up where the previous conversation left off. Rich and Tim return to six years of journals to explore the next three themes that emerged — the ones that didn’t fit neatly, resolve cleanly, or offer easy lessons. They begin with work and purpose, tracing how Rich’s journals reveal a constant back‑and‑forth: ambition and exhaustion, pride and resentment, meaning and burnout. They talk about the pressure to have impact, the cost of carrying work into every corner of life, and what it’s like to slowly admit that a role you can do well may no longer be one you want — or can — sustain. The conversation then shifts to habits, routines, and distraction. Rich reflects on years spent building systems to hold himself together — morning routines, fasting windows, time‑blocking, strict rules around focus — and how fragile those systems were in the face of poor sleep, stress, or emotional overload. Together they explore the pull of distraction, the fantasy that the “right” routine will finally work, and the fatigue that comes from constantly trying to out‑discipline your own mind. Finally, they turn to gratitude and meaning, and the complicated way both appear in the journals. Rather than gratitude as calm or resolved, Rich describes it as something tangled up with anxiety, guilt, fear of time passing, and the effort to notice life while struggling inside it. They talk about how meaning shows up not as insight or philosophy, but in ordinary, fleeting moments — often noticed only because they feel at risk of being lost. As with the first episode, this isn’t a story about transformation or self‑improvement. It’s about repetition, negotiation, softening, and the slow realism that comes from paying attention over time. A conversation about work that matters and costs something, habits that don’t hold, gratitude that isn’t peaceful, and the ongoing effort to live alongside yourself rather than fix yourself. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Rich and Tim discuss what Rich learned from 6 years of journaling | 24 avr. 2026 | 00:59:44 | |
In this episode, Rich and Tim sit down with six years of personal journals and ask a simple but uncomfortable question: what actually changed? They focus on the first three themes that stood out when Rich reread everything back. First, Rich reflects on the long arc of his mental health — how early journal entries framed exhaustion, irritability and low mood as problems of discipline, productivity, or personal failure, and how long it took before he had the language to name depression honestly. They talk about what it’s like to believe gratitude should cancel out sadness, and how learning to recognise patterns didn’t remove the cycles, but did change Rich’s relationship with them. Second, they explore the gradual shift toward meditation and presence. Not as a neat self‑improvement story, but as something that moved from a ten‑minute experiment to a genuine anchor during darker periods. Rich talks about letting go of meditation as something to “get right”, the impact of retreat, and how presence started showing up in ordinary moments rather than on the cushion. Third, the conversation turns to the body — food, exercise, fasting, running — and the years spent negotiating, arguing, and struggling for control. Rich shares what the journals reveal about shame, compulsion, relief, pride, and how physical routines were often attempts to regulate much deeper emotional states. They reflect on what softened over time, even when the patterns themselves didn’t disappear. This isn’t an episode about fixing yourself, forming perfect habits, or finding a breakthrough. It’s about noticing repetition, learning the difference between control and acceptance, and what six years of writing things down can teach you about how you actually live with yourself. The Interlacement of Violence: Three Temporalities of Violence in Everyday Lifehttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/00380385251343490 Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Care experienced psychotherapist, Jamie Crabb on suffering, care, and staying with what we don’t yet understand. | 16 avr. 2026 | 00:59:14 | |
In this episode of Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim are joined by therapist and writer Jamie Crabb to explore his powerful article Care, and Being Seen in the Presence of the Enigmatic. Jamie reflects on what care really asks of us when things don’t make sense—when distress can’t be easily named, understood, or fixed. Drawing on his own experience of the care system, his therapeutic work, and psychoanalytic ideas, we talk about what it means to be “seen” when what is being communicated is embodied, relational, and often uncomfortable. The conversation moves through themes of care that falters, the temptation to explain or tidy away distress, and the quieter, harder work of staying present. We discuss how experiences that are not held can travel across time, how care messages land in the body, and why being seen is never neutral. This is an episode about resisting quick interpretations, tolerating uncertainty, and thinking more honestly about care as something felt between people rather than delivered through technique. As ever, it’s messy, thoughtful, and rooted in real lives rather than neat answers. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Janet Kay OBE about her experiences as a social worker, adoptive parent and kinship carer | 02 avr. 2026 | 01:16:54 | |
Janet Kay is a prominent kinship carer, trustee for the charity Kinship, and OBE recipient who advocates for families in England raising relatives' children. Based in Sheffield, she has cared for her grandson since he was 18 months old, advocating for better financial and practical support, and overcoming the "dump and run" lack of resources for caregivers. Key Aspects of Janet Kay's Work and Experience:
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Professor Jonathan Scourfield on what the largest-ever Family Group Conference study reveals | 27 mars 2026 | 01:15:19 | |
Professor Jonathan Scourfield is a leading UK academic in social work, currently based at Cardiff University. His work spans child welfare, social care inequalities, suicide and self‑harm research, and working with men across the life course This one https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6079816tests if participation quality (i.e., how well families said their voice was heard) was linked to outcomes and finds that yes it was, though not for all outcomes we measured. This paper https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/s7f8g_v1 compares FGCs at three stages of the child welfare process and finds no differences among them, which is good news for promoting their use more broadly, not just for families with a child protection plan or in pre-proceedings. (the proviso being that not all outcomes improve after FGCs, but you wouldn’t really expect them to). Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Juliette Davies about addiction, domestic abuse and her recovery journey | 21 mars 2026 | 00:56:22 | |
A few years ago, Rich carried out an assessment that concluded Juliette couldn’t safely care for her children. It was a difficult moment, shaped by years of substance misuse, trauma, and repeated involvement from services. That assessment recommended residential rehabilitation. Juliette went on to take that step. In this conversation, Rich and Tim speak with Juliette about what was happening in her life at the time, why previous support hadn’t led to lasting change, and what was different about rehab. She shares openly about addiction, domestic abuse, and the reality of trying to rebuild a life. Today, Juliette is clean, sober, and her children are back in her care. This episode is about what can happen after the assessment — and what it really takes for change to occur. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/
| |||
| Practice lessons from the tragic death of Sara Shariff | 13 mars 2026 | 01:15:21 | |
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Ethan St Pierre on trauma tourism, alongside a news roundup from Mithran Samuel (CC) | 06 mars 2026 | 01:05:34 | |
Connect with Ethan here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethan-st-pierre-bb58403ab/ Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Ethan St Pierre on growing up in care, addiction and being reborn in a cemetery | 27 févr. 2026 | 01:05:36 | |
Connect with Ethan here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethan-st-pierre-bb58403ab/ Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Mark Hopfenbeck about the transformative possibilities of Open Dialogue. | 20 févr. 2026 | 01:02:42 | |
In this conversation, Rich and Tim and Mark Hopfenbeck explore the concept of Open Dialogue, its origins, and its application in mental health and social work. They discuss the importance of community involvement, the need for continuity in care, and the training required to develop relational skills. Mark emphasizes the significance of peer support and the challenges faced in implementing Open Dialogue in various settings. The conversation also touches on the role of evidence in validating Open Dialogue practices and the future of this approach in mental health care. Mark's presentation at the Thrive conference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EAegtEWsi4&t=2s Professor Russell Razzaque on Radio 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUVXKrFqaqE Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Connecting Research: Why young people don't access mental health support | 11 févr. 2026 | 00:33:10 | |
In this episode, we speak with Dr Mina Fazel, a British psychiatrist who is Professor and Chair of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Oxford. Her research considers the mental health of children and young people, and how to design effective mental health interventions. We talk to her about a recent paper: Adolescent consent and Generation Alpha: bridging policy, practice and empirical evidence in healthcare, you can download it here: Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim reflect on what its like to be silent for 6 days | 30 janv. 2026 | 00:52:31 | |
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Seana McDermott (Social Worker for Children in Care) about relational practice and moral injury | 30 janv. 2026 | 00:47:22 | |
This week, we speak to Seana, a social worker in a Child in Care Team. We explore what her role involves, how she builds relationships with young people, carers, and families, and the challenges she faces—as well as what helps her keep going. We’re really grateful to Seana for taking the time to talk with us, especially given how busy the role is. We hope you enjoy her passion, child‑centred practice, and commitment to the work as much as we did. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Dr Anna Harvey on handstands, breakdance battles, and the unconscious | 23 janv. 2026 | 00:51:21 | |
In this two-part episode of Messy Social Work, hosts Richard Devine and Tim Fisher speak with Dr Anna Harvey about the realities of child protection practice, reflective supervision, and the emotional weight of decision-making. Using a selection of Anna’s vivid LinkedIn posts and readings as a jumping-off point, the conversation moves from psychoanalytic ideas like organisational mindlessness, fear, guilt, and compassion, into leadership and workplace culture, challenging the “hero narrative” and calling for learning cultures and belonging in teams. The episode then widens out into ecology, community, and power, touching on what it means to “think global, act local,” and how social work can hold a wider lens on inequality, politics, and care. Anna's LinkedIn account https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-anna-harvey-sfhea-5220563b/ and a link to her Linkedin posts https://docs.google.com/document/d/17rJmo2bvYNpm_Bj2zT6xOuI3PreHoSm-_D4UND9R6m8/edit?tab=t.0 Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Dr Anna Harvey on fear, loneliness, and joy in social work | 16 janv. 2026 | 00:59:36 | |
In this two-part episode of Messy Social Work, hosts Richard Devine and Tim Fisher speak with Dr Anna Harvey about the realities of child protection practice, reflective supervision, and the emotional weight of decision-making. Using a selection of Anna’s vivid LinkedIn posts and readings as a jumping-off point, the conversation moves from psychoanalytic ideas like organisational mindlessness, fear, guilt, and compassion, into leadership and workplace culture, challenging the “hero narrative” and calling for learning cultures and belonging in teams. The episode then widens out into ecology, community, and power, touching on what it means to “think global, act local,” and how social work can hold a wider lens on inequality, politics, and care. Anna's LinkedIn account https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-anna-harvey-sfhea-5220563b/ and a link to her Linkedin posts https://docs.google.com/document/d/17rJmo2bvYNpm_Bj2zT6xOuI3PreHoSm-_D4UND9R6m8/edit?tab=t.0 Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Rich and Tim return to talk boundaries, creating space and big changes ahead | 09 janv. 2026 | 00:45:40 | |
Rich and Tim are back in the studio of the Messy Social Work Podcast, shaking off the holiday cobwebs and diving straight into the age-old tradition of New Year’s resolutions. Tim’s on a mission to set some firm boundaries, while Rich is dreaming of carving out a little breathing space—because who doesn’t need that in social work? But that’s not all. We’ve got our roving news correspondent and Community Care editor, Mithran Samuels, joining us to give the lowdown on what’s changing across children’s social care and what’s on the horizon for the year ahead. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Rich and Tim wrap up the year in conversation with Andrew Turnell | 19 déc. 2025 | 01:14:26 | |
Rich and Tim are joined by Andrew Turnell to reflect on 2025. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Donald Forrester about Nanny McPhee, baseball bats and the heart of social work (rights?!) | 12 déc. 2025 | 01:07:48 | |
In this episode of The Messy Social Work Podcast, we sit down with Professor Donald Forrester, researcher and social worker. We talk about why he thinks social workers are a bit like Nanny McPhee, why social work isn’t really about “helping,” and why conflict sits at the heart of the work we do. Donald shares the stories behind some of his most memorable anecdotes—from the baseball bat incident to the £20 haircut—and what they taught him about dignity, power, and human connection. We dig into whether there’s space for love in social work, how rights and relationships can coexist, and the traps practitioners fall into when we find ourselves telling parents what to do instead of listening. As a foster carer, Donald also reflects on what really makes a good social worker, what we get wrong about outcomes, and why change is so hard—and so hopeful. Plus, we finish with 10 quick-fire questions, where Donald reveals everything from the books that shaped him to his favourite motivational interviewing technique. Check out the Enlightened Social Worker here and more about Donald here Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Charlotte Clark (Child Protection Social Worker) about trust, power and relationships | 05 déc. 2025 | 00:51:31 | |
Rich and Tim sit down with Charlotte Clark, a practising frontline child protection social worker, to explore what it means to build trust in contexts where distrust runs deep. From navigating statutory power dynamics to managing conflict under intense pressure, Charlotte shares insights from her early career journey, reporting from the frontline and reflects on the relational skills that matter most. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Anam Raja on the experiences of Black and Asian kinship carers | 28 nov. 2025 | 00:42:30 | |
Full research and report found here https://kinship.org.uk/our-work-and-impact/research/raised-by-relatives/ | |||
| Rich and Tim ask each other surprising & difficult questions | 21 nov. 2025 | 00:48:17 | |
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| The Trauma Industrial Complex | 14 nov. 2025 | 00:52:10 | |
This week on Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim take a deep dive into Darren McGarvey’s The Trauma Industrial Complex — a book that pulls no punches about how society packages, sells, and performs trauma. We explore McGarvey’s core argument that trauma has become a kind of cultural currency, often stripped of nuance and turned into content. We talk about the emotional labour placed on lived-experience workers, the myths of the “hero’s journey,” and the three layers of victimhood: victimhood, victim mentality and the victim complex. We also reflect on McGarvey’s honesty about his own narrative, including the four fundamental flaws he uncovered in his story and what this means for real recovery. If you work in social care, mental health, youth work, or community settings — or you’ve ever felt the tension between compassion, truth and accountability — this episode will stay with you. You can purchase the Trauma Industrial Complex here Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Connecting Research: linking childhood maltreatment to later intimate partner violence victimization | 11 nov. 2025 | 00:44:04 | |
In this Connecting Research episode, we speak to a lecturer and researcher at University College London, Dr Patrizia Pezzoli, about an article she co-authored, titled: Lived-experience perspectives on the psychological factors linking childhood maltreatment to later intimate partner violence victimization. See paper here which is available OPEN ACCESS. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Toni Mayo on Radical Social Work | 07 nov. 2025 | 00:46:55 | |
In this episode, we have a returning guest: social worker and team manager Toni Mayo. Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme | |||
| Rhian Taylor on the tension between being and doing in social work | 31 oct. 2025 | 01:03:55 | |
In this episode, we explore the tension between the fast-paced, task-driven nature of social work and the deeper need for presence, reflection, and meaning. Rhian Taylor shares insights from her recent blog on why it’s so hard for practitioners to stop—and how doing so can radically improve our wellbeing and the quality of our practice. We talk about:
Rhian’s blog: Integrating doing and being in health and social care: Why we find it so hard to stop and how it could radically help us Retreat: Integrating Doing and Being | Othona West Dorset https://www.othonawestdorset.org.uk/ Rhian Taylor e-mail: rhian.c.taylor@outlook.com | |||
| Nicki Pettitt, Consultant specialising in Child Safeguarding Practice Reviews | 25 oct. 2025 | 01:06:00 | |
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ https://www.techne.ac.uk/research-and-education/departments-and-schools/law-and-criminology/research/our-projects-and-research-impact/context-counts-improving-the-analysis-of-socio-economic-context-and-intersectionality-in-local-child-safeguarding-practice-reviews/
| |||
| Community Care Editor, Mithran on the latest social work headlines | 17 oct. 2025 | 00:44:11 | |
Josh MacAlister has said he’d like children to have a choice of where and with whom they live: Applications to register children’s homes are rocketing, such that Ofsted is having to prioritise applications, leaving others having to wait up to 18 months. Also, spending on looked-after children ate up all of the increase in spending in children’s services in 2024-25, with such spending pressures generally attributed to significant rises in residential care costs. Community Care Live from Jahnine Davis, on her findings from a year as the kinship ambassador. | |||
| Dr Paul Shuttleworth on what children want you to know about kinship | 09 oct. 2025 | 01:04:01 | |
In this episode of the Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich and Tim speak with Dr Paul Shuttleworth about his new book Listening to Children about Kinship Care: Child Welfare and Permanence. Drawing on powerful research and direct testimony from children and young people, Paul shares what they say really matters when professionals make decisions about kinship care, permanence, and support. We explore:
This conversation is a must-listen for anyone working in child welfare, fostering, or family support — and for those committed to centering children's voices in decision-making. Paul's book; FREE to download: https://policy.bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/listening-to-children-about-kinship-care-child-welfare-and-permanence Paul and Sarah's podcast; https://rpkp27vtwpz24.podbean.com/ Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Dr Lorna Stabler about lived experience—its power, its promise, and its problems. | 03 oct. 2025 | 01:19:18 | |
In this episode, we explore why lived experience has become such a dominant force in social work, and ask: what are we missing when we treat it as unquestionable truth? Dr Stabler helps us think critically about how stories are used, who gets to tell them, and what happens when experience becomes currency. This is a conversation about ethics, representation, and the uncomfortable edges of practice. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Rich and Tim reflect on their personal failures, explore why failure is inevitable, & share what they’ve learned from it. | 26 sept. 2025 | 00:48:59 | |
In this episode, Rich and Tim: How to Succeed at Failing, we reflect on the times we’ve got it wrong — professionally and personally — and explore why failure isn’t just inevitable, but essential. From missteps to lessons learned, we talk about how embracing failure can lead to growth, insight, and even unexpected success. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Professor Rick Barth on the top misconceptions in child protection | 19 sept. 2025 | 01:15:05 | |
In this thoughtful and research-informed conversation, Rich and Tim speak with Professor Rick Barth about his influential article, “Ten Common Child Welfare Misconceptions.” The episode explores how widely held beliefs about child protection and foster care often diverge from evidence and practice realities. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||
| Professor Harry Ferguson on the heart, history and future of social work | 12 sept. 2025 | 01:32:30 | |
In this episode, Rich and Tim sit down with Professor Harry Ferguson—one of the most influential thinkers in contemporary social work. Together, they explore the evolution of the profession, the emotional and embodied nature of frontline practice, and what we’ve learned from decades of child death enquiries. Harry reflects on the importance of relationships, the complexity of risk, and why social work must be both intellectually rigorous and deeply human. A must-listen for anyone interested in the heart, history, and future of social work. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ | |||