Messy Social Work – Details, episodes & analysis

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Messy Social Work

Rich and Tim

Science

Frequency: 1 episode/12d. Total Eps: 120

Messy Social Work is a podcast for social workers, leaders, students and anyone interested in helping people navigate life's toughest challenges.

Hosted by Rich Devine and Tim Fisher, the podcast explores child protection, systemic practice, relationships, leadership, trauma, family support and the realities of frontline social work.

Each week, we speak with leading thinkers, practitioners, researchers and people with lived experience to explore what helps, what harms and what social work can learn from both success and failure.

Expect honest conversations, practical ideas, challenging questions and occasional disagreement, all grounded in a belief that meaningful change happens through relationships.

Because social work isn't neat.

It's messy.

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Data updated on 12/09/2026

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https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/
177 shares
https://www.relationalactivism.com/
151 shares
https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme
147 shares

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Score global : 48%

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What social workers get wrong in court: Insights from family barrister Gemma Chapman

Friday, September 11, 2026 • Duration 01:11:21

In this episode, Richard Devine sits down with family law barrister Gemma Chapman to explore the intersection between social work, family justice and advocacy.

Gemma shares her journey into family law, what she enjoys most about being a barrister, and some of the challenges that come with working in a complex and emotionally demanding field. Together, we discuss what makes an effective social worker, the qualities of a strong social work expert witness, and the common pitfalls practitioners can encounter when giving evidence in court.

The conversation also examines an important distinction often misunderstood in practice: the difference between disclosure and allegations, and why this matters for assessment, decision-making and safeguarding children.

We explore the role of legal representation within the family justice system, including how barristers advocate for clients while balancing professional duties and ethical responsibilities. Finally, Gemma reflects on the changes she would like to see in how services support children and families and offers valuable advice for social workers appearing in court.

A thought-provoking conversation for social workers, managers, legal professionals, students, and anyone interested in improving outcomes for children and families.

Key themes:

Family justice and advocacy
Giving evidence in court
What makes an effective social worker
Social Work Expert Witnesses (SWETs)
Disclosure versus allegations
Working alongside legal professionals
Supporting children and families
Learning from practice and experience

Guest: Gemma Chapman, Family Law Barrister

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Rich and Tim relational skills, networks, theory and leadership in Family Group Decision Making

Thursday, September 3, 2026 • Duration 55:57

In the second part of their Family Group Decision Making (FGDM) series, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore themes six to ten, moving beyond process and practice into the relational, cultural and leadership dimensions of family-led decision-making.

The conversation explores:

The relational skills and mindsets that underpin effective FGDM, including invitational practice, holding space, emotional containment, cultural humility and creating environments where families experience dignity, belonging and psychological safety.
The power of networks and participation, examining how practitioners can move beyond a narrow definition of family to mobilise wider circles of support, including kinship networks, friends, neighbours, communities, fathers and lifelong connections.
The role of stories, feedback and lived experience in helping us understand the impact of FGDM, and why stories often reveal aspects of change, identity and belonging that formal outcomes alone cannot capture.
Theoretical perspectives that inform family-led practice, including restorative approaches, shame and repair, systems thinking, risk culture, relational activism and the challenge of balancing professional responsibility with trust in families and communities.
Leadership, implementation and culture change, exploring how services can embed FGDM principles beyond individual meetings, create democratic and participatory spaces, involve people with lived experience, and build systems that place relationships, community and shared responsibility at the centre of practice.

Throughout the episode, Rich and Tim reflect on power, participation, relational ethics, community leadership and what happens when professionals move from being experts and problem-solvers towards becoming facilitators of conversation, connection and collective action.

Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, coordinator, manager, therapist, community organiser or leader, this episode offers practical ideas and thoughtful reflections on building more relational, democratic and human-centred ways of working with children, families and communities.

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Rich and Tim on Family Group Decision Making: Power, participation and family leadership

Sunday, August 30, 2026 • Duration 53:19

In this episode, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore the first five themes of Family Group Decision Making (FGDM), unpacking the philosophy, values and practice wisdom behind one of the most significant relational approaches in children's and family services today.

Together, they discuss the Māori origins of Family Group Conferencing in Aotearoa New Zealand and how FGDM has evolved into a strengths-based, family-led approach that places decision-making power closer to children, families and communities.

The conversation explores:

The foundations of FGDM and the shift from doing things to or for families towards doing things with them.
How Family Group Decision Making can support people across the life course, from birth planning and early years support to adolescence, adulthood and later life.
The importance of the "window of intervention" and why timing matters when creating opportunities for families to lead their own planning and decision-making.
The art and craft of facilitation, including preparation, advocacy, private family time, powerful questioning and the role of the coordinator in creating the conditions for meaningful participation.
A continuum of conversational approaches, from formal Family Group Conferences through to mediation, family network meetings and other family-led spaces for dialogue, planning and repair.

Throughout the episode, Richard and Tim reflect on participatory democracy, relational practice, family power, professional humility and what becomes possible when we trust families and communities to mobilise their own strengths, networks and solutions.

Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, manager, coordinator, therapist or community practitioner, this episode offers rich insights into how relational ways of working can create lasting change through conversation, connection and collective responsibility.

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Peter Block: relationships, resistance and the relevance of 'Flawless Consulting'

Wednesday, August 19, 2026 • Duration 01:02:38

Flawless Consulting by Peter Block has sold more than a million copies and is widely regarded as one of the most influential books ever written about consulting. But what can a business classic teach social workers, practice leads, and change agents working in complex public services?

In this episode, Rich and Tim put Peter Block's ideas to the test through two live consulting dilemmas drawn from their own work. Rich explores the challenge of leading a systemic practice transformation from within an organisation, where success depends less on training and more on culture change, relationships, and influencing without authority. Tim brings the perspective of an external consultant, working with local authorities to embed Family Group Decision-Making and create lasting change beyond the life of a contract.

Together, they explore some of Peter's most enduring ideas: authentic contracting, resistance as valuable information, shared responsibility, and the difference between compliance and genuine commitment. Along the way, Peter challenges assumptions about expertise, accountability, and what it really takes to help organisations change.

Whether you're an internal practice lead, an external consultant, a social work manager, or anyone trying to influence change without formal authority, this conversation offers practical wisdom from a thinker whose work remains as relevant today as when Flawless Consulting was first published.

Topics include:

Contracting for real accountability
Leading change without direct authority
Working with resistance rather than against it
Internal versus external consulting
Avoiding the "expert" trap
Moving from compliance to commitment
Embedding systemic practice and Family Group Decision-Making

A conversation about consulting, culture change, and why one of the world's best-selling consulting books still has so much to say about social work.

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Lee Crouch, a parent with lived experience of reunification: what social workers need to know

Friday, July 31, 2026 • Duration 01:08:44

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

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Practice lessons from the death of Victoria Marten (Part 2)

Friday, July 24, 2026 • Duration 57:02

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

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Practice lessons from the death of Victoria Marten

Friday, July 17, 2026 • Duration 54:55

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

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Connecting Research: Why social workers turn a blind eye and avoid mental pain in child protection

Monday, July 13, 2026 • Duration 36:39

Why do experienced professionals sometimes fail to see what is right in front of them? In this episode of Connecting Research, we explore Margaret Rustin's influential analysis of the Victoria Climbié case and her argument that professional failures in child protection are not simply the result of poor practice, incompetence, or inadequate procedures. Instead, they can reflect powerful psychological and organizational defenses against unbearable emotional realities.

Drawing on psychoanalytic concepts including turning a blind eye, avoidance of mental pain, splitting, and mindlessness, we examine how exposure to child suffering can overwhelm practitioners' capacity to think, reflect, and act. Rustin invites us to consider how social workers, health professionals, police officers, and organizations can become caught in defensive processes that obscure the meaning of what they are seeing, even when the evidence of harm is available.

The discussion explores what happens when thinking itself becomes painful, why anxiety can interfere with professional judgement, and how supervision, reflective spaces, and systemic support are essential if practitioners are to remain emotionally present with children who are suffering. Rather than locating blame solely in individuals, this episode asks how child protection systems can help workers bear the difficult realities of abuse, neglect, and trauma without turning away from them.

A thought-provoking conversation about the emotional demands of child protection and what it takes to keep children in mind when the realities they face are hardest to bear.

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Rich and Tim on uncertainty, relationships and 14 lessons from practice

Tuesday, July 7, 2026 • Duration 42:07

In this episode of the Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich and Tim discuss Richard's recent blog, 14 Lessons from 11 Years at Bath and North East Somerset Council, written as he prepares to leave frontline children's social work after more than a decade in B&NES and take up a leadership role in Solihull.

Together, they explore fourteen reflections shaped by years of child protection practice, relationships with children and families, mistakes, uncertainty, and the ongoing challenge of working in complex systems. The conversation covers the limits of professional influence, learning to live with impossible demands, reducing harm rather than pursuing perfect safety, and why social workers themselves help create the system they often talk about.

Rich and Tim also discuss authenticity with families, balancing compassion and accountability, the value of curiosity and "not knowing", the tensions at the heart of child protection work, and why meaningful change is often rooted in relationships rather than professional heroics.

This is a thoughtful and honest conversation about what social work teaches us over time: how to tolerate uncertainty, stay connected to people, and hold onto what matters most when there are no easy answers.

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Ex-undercover police officer on why the war on drugs is failing

Friday, June 26, 2026 • Duration 01:15:23

In this episode, we’re joined by former undercover drugs officer Neil Woods to explore the ideas at the heart of his book Good Cop, Bad War. Drawing on over a decade working covertly inside drug markets, Neil gives a sobering account of how the “war on drugs” actually plays out on the ground - and why, in his view, it so often makes things worse rather than better.

Neil talks about what he witnessed firsthand: the way enforcement can unintentionally strengthen organised crime, increase violence, and pull vulnerable people - especially children and young people - deeper into exploitation. He reflects on the disconnect between policy intentions and real-world impact, and how the system can end up targeting those with the least power while leaving wider harms untouched.

We also explore the personal toll of this work. Neil shares his experiences of moral injury - the strain of repeatedly acting in ways that conflict with your sense of what is right - and his experience of complex PTSD.

Turning to social work, we think about what all of this means for those supporting parents who use drugs. Rather than seeing substance use purely as a problem to be eradicated, this conversation invites a more reflective approach - one that understands the role drugs play in people’s lives, recognises the impact of trauma, and prioritises relationship-based, harm-reducing practice.

This is an honest and thought-provoking discussion about policy, practice, and the unintended consequences of intervention - and a challenge to think differently about what helpful support really looks like for families.

Contact Neil here:

https://www.neilwoods.net/contact-neil-woods

https://www.neilwoods.net/

His book is available online and on audible

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Messy Social Work – Details, episodes & analysis

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Messy Social Work – Details, episodes & analysis

Podcast details

Recent rankings

Apple Podcasts

Spotify

Shared links between episodes and podcasts

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RSS feed quality and score

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