Unfiltered takes on the biggest shifts in marketing technology. We spotlight what matters, who's leading (or lagging), and what's next. In Martech, clarity is power — and we're here to deliver it.
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What Client-Side Wishes Agencies Knew with Courtney Tierney
Episode 57
Wednesday, September 30, 2026 • Duration 40:13
Courtney Tierney spent years on the agency side telling brands what their CRM strategy should be. Now she's the one whose name is on the result. As director of CRM and customer engagement at Papa John's, she owns how the brand communicates with 42 million loyalty members across email, push notifications, SMS, and in-app channels. The gap between advising and owning is real, and this conversation gets into exactly where it shows.
Before Papa John's, Courtney was the senior director of account planning and research at Digital Additive, a Salesforce Marketing Cloud agency, where she worked with brands such as Grammarly and WeWork. She also spent time in-house at IHG. She's crossed the agency-to-client line more than once, which makes her perspective on what each side gets wrong about the other harder to dismiss than most.
This episode covers QSR category assumptions that fall apart in a pitch room, why deliverability is insurance, not overhead, how franchise models create competing contact strategies in the same inbox, and why the conventional wisdom to stay in your lane, agency or client side, is worth ignoring entirely.
Timestamps
03:55 — Agency energy vs. in-house ownership
05:10 — QSR pizza is not QSR
09:10 — Certifications, genuine expertise or the game
12:53 — Launch before your reporting is ready, and you're guessing
17:50 — Generalist agencies vs. CRM specialists
25:37 — Deliverability jail, a real story
30:17 — Cross-channel frequency and the national versus local fight
38:35 — Geo-targeting competitors at the zip code level
47:24 — Ignore the stay-in-your-lane advice
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Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.
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Consolidate vs. Best-of-Breed with Mindbody's Vinicius Rodrigues
Episode 56
Wednesday, September 23, 2026 • Duration 47:21
"It shouldn't be consolidated or best-of-breed. I think it could be consolidated and best-of-breed." — Vinicius
Vinicius Rodrigues has spent his career arguing that fragmentation is a legitimate strategy, not a failure to consolidate. He also cut six figures in martech spend through consolidation. As head of marketing technology and operations at Mindbody, now part of Playlist, he manages the global martech stack across North America, EMEA, and APAC, three regions where almost nothing about how customers respond to automation is the same.
Before Mindbody, at Lojas Renner in Brazil, he ran a WhatsApp commerce pilot that generated 30x ROI and identified $20 million in revenue potential, in a market most US martech leaders have never touched. At Mindbody, he built the company's first marketing AI agent from scratch.
This episode is a pressure test of his own framework. If best-of-breed is always contextual, at what point does context become a convenient explanation for whatever decision you already made?
Timestamps
00:01 — Principled fragmentation or consolidation with better branding
04:00 — Agentic AI, the new overhyped buzzword
05:30 — WhatsApp in the US: hopeful but skeptical
12:00 — Unlimited budget, same philosophy
17:36 — Back-testing AI before trusting it with pipeline
19:45 — AI as safety net, not gatekeeper
24:30 — Localize even your research: G2 vs. Trustpilot
29:00 — The WhatsApp fashion stylist, before "agentic" was a word
37:00 — Platform roadmaps favor the biggest market
44:05 — Bilingual as a dual market lens
The Dumb Pipe with Peter Oleson (Part 2)
Episode 55
Wednesday, September 16, 2026 • Duration 38:48
"We don't want to be the dumb pipe. We want to be the brain for your marketing. And I'm sorry, everyone can't be the brain. You can't have five brains." — Peter
Peter Oleson is back, and the guardrails are off. Part 2 picks up where the dumb pipe debate left off and delves into the operational and economic realities that a composable stack actually demands of vendors, marketers, and the AI agents everyone's betting on. The thesis gets pressure-tested from every angle: vendor survival, job market implications, and whether the economics of AI decisioning even hold up yet.
This episode covers the MAP convergence already underway, why "warehouse native" is often a marketing claim rather than a technical reality, and what questions buyers should actually ask vendors instead of accepting alphabet soup at face value.
33:21 — Marketers must reclaim their seat at the table
The Dumb Pipe with Peter Oleson (Part 1)
Episode 54
Wednesday, September 9, 2026 • Duration 49:16
"By definition, most marketing automation platforms are creating silos, not breaking them down. They're in the business of creating copies of data." — Peter
Peter Oleson spent years inside the machine. Salesforce Marketing Cloud architect at Merkle, then Iterable, running live demos of the exact journey builders he now argues are the wrong model. Today, he's making the case that marketing automation platforms should stop trying to be the brain and start being a better pipe.
That is a specific, testable claim, and Jacqueline holds it to the fire – oh, and this is just Part 1. Part 2 next week.
The central bet is worth stating plainly: Marketing Automation Platforms (MAPs) should stop trying to understand the customer and instead become the system that reliably executes a decision made elsewhere. If Peter is right, an entire category of enterprise software loses its core value proposition. If he is wrong, he is selling a solution that requires a seven-figure engineering headcount that never appears on any vendor invoice.
This episode covers accountability in the age of AI agents, the real cost structures of composable versus bundled platforms, why "breaking down data silos" has always been more of a sales pitch than an architectural reality, and which move by a modern MAP would fundamentally reshape the competitive landscape.
Timestamps
03:12 — The Sendomatic 5000: marketing automation's humble beginnings
11:40 — Vote with your feet: why talk is cheap in martech
13:00 — Before AI agents, humans were already getting it wrong
15:19 — You can't abdicate accountability to AI agents
21:45 — Composable martech finally unites lifecycle and performance teams
Inside the RCS Approval Black Box with Stephanie Griffith
Episode 53
Wednesday, September 2, 2026 • Duration 52:11
Stephanie Griffith has experience in retention and lifecycle marketing across brand, agency, and platform roles, making her a rare, credible voice on RCS business messaging. In this episode, she sits at the center of a real contradiction: selling brands on a channel that runs 15-30% CTR, with standout campaigns topping 50, while those same brands sit in an 8-to-16-week carrier-approval queue with no clear timeline on the other side.
This is an honest breakdown of what the RCS approval process actually requires, where brands consistently blow it, and why the wait is still worth it.
Stephanie also argues that SMS optimization and RCS prep are not competing priorities. They run in parallel, and the brands treating them that way will hit the ground running when the channel opens up.
Timestamps
01:35 — From CheetahMail to Klaviyo: Fourteen years, one career arc, told through the tools she's used.
01:50 — Kill Email, Make Room for Better: Email hasn't evolved in 20+ years, and it's built on bad consent. Time's up.
03:58 — SaaS Shilling Has No Credibility: Calling out influencers who evangelize whatever platform pays them, no receipts required.
05:15 — Three Hottest Takes in Marketing: It depends is the only honest best practice. Send fewer, better messages.
06:10 — Selling Patience to a Q4 Brand: The RCS wait isn't downtime; it's the exact moment for SMS optimization.
34:34 — RCS: The Great Equalizer: The only channel that satisfies marketers and consumers at once, no download required.
How Babylist Gained 600 Hours Back with Elizabeth Martin
Episode 52
Wednesday, August 26, 2026 • Duration 42:30
"There is a version of AI adoption where efficiency just becomes a euphemism for doing more with less: you automate 30% of somebody's work, immediately fill that capacity with more work, and just move on." — Elizabeth
Elizabeth Martin's team at Babylist cut newsletter production time from 2 hours to 15 minutes, freeing up 600 hours a year, using Claude, an Iterable MCP, and a Notion-based copy pipeline. Her AI-lifecycle-marketing system has been called one of the most advanced MCP implementations among her ESP's clients, built in three months, with every failure documented along the way.
This isn't a theoretical AI conversation. Elizabeth walks through QA failures, an API key gap caught live on air, and what "30% more output" really costs a team, inside a company expanding into new verticals while the U.S. birth rate hits a generational low.
Timestamps
03:00 — The Role-Blurring Tax: The same AI capability that grants independence also creates friction when a team is expected to be experts in everything; the cognitive and labor load quietly expands alongside the power.
07:10 — Independence as the Real AI Dividend: Beyond workflow automation, Claude gave Elizabeth's team direct access to their data layer and API triggers, blurring the line between engineering and lifecycle marketing.
12:11 — Hiring While Using AI: Babylist is growing headcount, not cutting it. AI as a tool to do more with more, not to replace workers.
16:30 — Security, HIPAA, and the Line You Don't Cross: How Babylist keeps registry data and HIPAA-protected health data cleanly separated across systems.
22:11 — What the MCP Still Can't Do: Journey tile QA, audience field definitions, and multivariate notification tests are the real gaps behind the "most advanced" headline.
Lipstick on a Pig
Episode 51
Wednesday, August 19, 2026 • Duration 34:35
I was the one in the hot seat this time. Bloomreach's Divya Mulanjur flipped the mic on me...
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The Human Behind The Humans of Martech with Phil Gamache
Episode 50
Wednesday, August 19, 2026 • Duration 56:40
"AI-powered is one thing, but I feel like we're seeing this renewed focus on human-powered. Buying the tool is just a tiny little part of that journey, making the most of it, getting it implemented; there's a human story there." — Phil Gamache
One year of Making Sense of Martech, and for the anniversary episode, Jacqueline brought in her main competitor: Phil Gamache, host of Humans of Martech and one of the most honest voices in marketing operations.
Six years in, Phil treats practitioners not as insight-dispensing experts but as actual humans navigating a chaotic, often lonely job. He's still figuring it out alongside everyone else. That's the point.
His in-house career spans 13 years across WordPress, Close.com, and everything in between. Now a full-time solo creator, he runs a production stack powered by Claude and Cursor, crafts episode cover art in Midjourney by hand, and has strong opinions about why nobody should let a language model make every decision for them.
This one gets into the martech island problem, what actually made Humans of Martech a viable business, the attribution philosophy battle, and why the vendors winning in 2026 are leading with humans, not features.
Timestamps
03:06 — Why Humans of Martech Really Exists: Built for practitioners lost on the martech island, including people who just lost their jobs and don't know what's next. Never about consulting leads. Always about the humans.
08:00 — AI-Powered Is the Default Now: The new differentiator isn't having AI in your stack; it's how well you show the product and the humans behind it. Buyers are increasingly making decisions on vibes, not G2 scores.
Icarus Met His Maker: Why We Trusted the Wrong People
Episode 49
Thursday, August 13, 2026 • Duration 18:15
We're going down the rabbit hole together again in this week's second Breakdown essay episode. Be sure to listen to part 1 first here.
Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on TikTok, LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.
Industry Awards: Earned, Bought, or Invented? with Jonathan Harrop
Episode 48
Wednesday, August 12, 2026 • Duration 48:41
"You're on the receiving end of a coordinated PR campaign." - Jonathan
80% CSAT wins trophies. That's a problem.
What does it actually take to win an industry award worth winning? Jonathan Harrop has been on both sides: he's judged at the Drum Awards and spent years at AdColony running a $6 million global marketing budget that produced over 200 wins across Ad Age, MMA, Smarties, Adweek, and the Drum. He knows how winning entries are built, what judges are really looking for, and where the whole system falls apart.
This episode is not a takedown of awards culture, nor is it a defense of it. It is a sharp, honest account of how the game actually works, from AI-written entries getting zeroed out in jury rooms to government budget claims that defy how policy actually moves. Jonathan also pulls back the curtain on Forbes 30 Under 30, pay-to-play structures, reader polls as legitimacy theater, and the one signal that probably tells you more about a vendor than any trophy ever will.
Timestamps
02:05 — The Networking Case for Showing Up: Even if you only make the shortlist, attending the ceremony is worth it; the room is full of peers you'd otherwise never meet.
03:05 — Reverse-Engineering What Judges Want: The submitter seat teaches more than the judge seat because winning at scale forces you to systematically decode what passes the first filter before an entry ever reaches a judge.
04:32 — AI Entries Getting Zeroed Out: Judges are now zeroing out entries that read as AI-generated because reused winning phrases signal zero effort, and effort is exactly what judges are supposed to be rewarding.
14:38 — Operationalizing an Awards Campaign: Jonathan breaks down the full process of building a winning submission, from early result tracking to video case studies and cost management, and what it actually takes to scale a program to 200-plus wins on a limited budget. The unglamorous version.
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Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.
Connect & Subscribe
Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on TikTok, LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.
Sponsor
Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.
Connect & Subscribe
Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on TikTok, LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.
25:14 — Data portability isn't a tax. It's an investment with dividends
37:50 — Who becomes the first modern "dumb pipe"?
41:40 — Unify the data, personalize the moment: why every martech pitch sounds the same
49:04 — When the data silo is your only lifeline
Sponsor
Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.
Connect & Subscribe
Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on TikTok, LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.
35:20 — Consumers Are Already Here: Brands aren't introducing RCS. They're catching up to what people already use daily.
42:00 — Even Google Isn't Done Building: Adopting RCS now doesn't put brands behind. It puts them right where the platform is.
Sponsor
Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.
Connect & Subscribe
Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on TikTok, LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.
23:30 — The Moat Is the People: Asked whether the competitive advantage is the tool or something else, Elizabeth's answer is unambiguous: it's the people. Technology augments the engine, but the engine is human.
25:45 — The Pod Model and the Seat at the Table: Embedding lifecycle marketers directly into product team standups changed what the function owns, driving end-to-end strategy through production rather than being pulled in at the end to send a triggered email.
30:05 — Anyone Can Create an MCP: A real governance risk hiding inside MCP democratization: the line between empowerment and security exposure is thinner than most teams realize and requires active, ongoing conversation with an AI enablement team.
33:22 — Efficiency as Euphemism Warning: Why AI efficiency can quietly become code for doing more with less and the better bet marketing leaders should make instead.
35:55 — Slow Down to Speed Up: Real AI automation requires upfront investment in documentation and process clarity. If you want to automate a year from now, start writing everything down today.
45:36 — Fastest AI Wins Are in Verification, Not Creation: Babylist cut newsletter production from 12 hours to 15 minutes mostly by automating quality assurance, reframing where teams should look first when adopting AI.
Sponsor
Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.
Connect & Subscribe
Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on TikTok, LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.
18:30 — You're Not Alone on the Island: The core emotional value of Humans of Martech: knowing that practitioners at Canva, Uber, and Meta are wrestling with the same problems you are is genuinely reassuring.
25:01 — AI Mock Interview for Guest Prep: Phil uses Claude Code to build a dynamic guest persona, run a mock interview across three rounds, and surface better questions through iterative, AI-driven prep before a human ever reads the output.
33:00 — The Full Production Stack: From transcript ingestion to blog post generation to Midjourney cover art by hand, Phil walks through every node in his solo creator workflow and where human judgment still has to show up.
41:42 — The Empathy Gap in AI Hype: If you're not getting laid off, you're five times more stressed with five times more expected output. The practitioners behind the tools are caught in a genuinely difficult inflection point.
51:18 — Attribution Is a Philosophy Battle: Getting attribution right is a philosophical one: data teams think like statisticians, marketers think like investors, and those two worldviews have to be reconciled before any tool can help.
55:54 — Truth, Feeling Seen, and What's Next: The show's enduring mission: bring truth to the industry and help practitioners feel seen. One year in, that mission is just getting started.
Sponsor
Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.
Connect & Subscribe
Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on TikTok, LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.
22:45 — Company Awards Are Sales Tools: Best-places-to-work and technology innovation awards are fundamentally sales assets, a sticker for a deck that a salesperson shows a buyer, not signals of genuine excellence the way campaign awards are.
28:45 — DM9 vs. Havas: Which Is Worse? DM9 fabricated evidence and was caught; Havas Costa Rica's "Lessons of Shame" claimed a $73M budget shift and the reshaping of four presidential platforms. None of which could be verified. The award still stands. The case that wasn't caught may be the more dangerous precedent.
38:22 — Rating Manipulation Is Everywhere: App stores, review platforms, and survey flows are routinely engineered to funnel satisfied users toward public ratings and dissatisfied users toward private feedback, making most star-rating signals structurally gamed.
48:35 — Perception Is Reality in Awards: Winning awards cements your credibility as a leader in ways that are hard to replicate. The system's flaws don't cancel that out.
Sponsor
Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.
Connect & Subscribe
Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on TikTok, LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.
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