Intuitive Style explores strategies for shopping and dressing intuitively. Each week, a guest shares their approach to getting dressed—to show there’s no one right way, just the one that works for you.
Episode 06. What would I wear if I didn't judge my body? with Kori Rae Kovacs
Friday, February 28, 2025 • Duration 51:55
Registered Nurse, veteran, wellness coach, author, and public speaker (phew!), Kori Rae Kovacs BSN RN joins me in conversation today. She shares wisdom from her personal and professional experience, actionable suggestions for how to move past shame to dress authentically, and a new question to help us all figure out how we want to dress.
Episode Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Maureen: As a life and wellness coach, you specialize in inspiring others to embrace unique strengths, essentially matching our outsides to our insides. I love this concept. Can you share a little bit of a glimpse into your approach?Kori: Yeah, absolutely. I came up with this phrase about, you know, bringing your insides outsides, or bringing this like matching component of what you feel who you are on the inside, who you are at a soul level, and really getting the opportunity to share that out in the world. I feel like I came across this concept. I'm not really sure where, but I developed it kind of became a mantra for me when I realized that I have this beautiful being inside of me that is just wanting to come out. I had really gone through a really challenging time in my life, and I felt like. I was kind of hiding myself, and when I started reconnecting with this person that I am, you know, this person who has grown through resiliency through things that have been challenging. Then suddenly I realized, Wow, she's a really cool person. I want to bring her out into the world. And so I started matching my outsides to the person that I was feeling and getting to know on the inside. And when that happened I just feel like I was like coming out of a cage. Suddenly my wings, just like burst out, and I was able to really show up in the world as the person that I believe that I am.Maureen: That's incredible. And you talk about this idea of, you know, you've been through these difficult situations, and it almost sounds to me like that inner confidence came first, and then the outside happened second, do you have a perspective on, you know which need? If you can, fake it till you make it? Or does the inner confidence come first? Does it kind of depend? Or at least just speak from your perspective.Kori: Yeah, that's such a great question, because I think we live in a day and age where they talk about, you know, faking it till you making it or putting this front on the outside, but really not feeling confident on the inside. I know I share that story a lot with my audience is that I believe that confidence comes from your self-trust within yourself. It's not something that you can just snap and say, Oh, I feel confident today I'm going to go out and do this thing. I think that feels really forced. And so to me, it's about building trust with yourself getting to know who you are, and then expressing and taking action from that step that truly brings the confidence out in you, because you can feel confident, maybe in in some things, you know, but not in other areas. And I truly believe that you know, if you look up confidence in the, in the etymology. I'm a huge etymology nerd. So if you look at confidence, what that means, it really means a reliance or deep trust in something or someone, and when we talk about confidence about you having a deep trust and reliance in yourself, to be able to go out and be this person that you know that you can be so when you start building that self trust. Then that's really where the confidence starts to grow.Maureen: How have you built self trust, personally?Kori: That's such a great question. I you know a lot of it had to come from a place of compassion. Like, of being human. And I had gone through a really hard time in my life. I became a single mom, and my career took a shift. I was going to school to become a nurse during the pandemic, and things just really fell apart in my life. Trajectory as I was approaching, and I felt a lot of shame and a lot of guilt about the direction of where I was going, and in addition to that, I had gained like pounds. And so there was all these things that had happened, and I really lost my confidence and my faith in myself to be able to go out into the world and show the world who I was. So I feel like the moment that I decided to offer compassion for this place, and in the survival mode that I had been in and what had happened to me in my life. Suddenly it opened up space for me to actually get to know who I was, and when that happened, I started taking steps by journaling and meditating and moving my body in a way that felt genuine to me and that consistency of really finding out who this person was. Suddenly. Now I was like, oh, you're actually a pretty cool kid. I really kind of like you. And so like, day by day, that trust just started to build. And then I was able to go back out into the world and show, you know, come out in my style and come out, you know, and start a business, and and all of these things that honestly, a couple of years ago I wouldn't have had the courage to do.Maureen: I mean, it makes me feel somewhat emotional, you know, talking about that thick layer of shame that just can sit, sit on us, and make it so difficult to like crack through into the person that we actually are. And just I so relate to that. I want to talk more about this idea of self-compassion, and maybe you can talk about that with, sharing a little bit about more about how your relationship with your body has changed, you know, being a veteran, being a registered nurse, a parent life coach, you know, and then also that that kind of weight gain that you experience. Can you tell us a little bit more about? You know your relationship to your body, and how that's changed over time.Kori: Oof! That has been a challenge. I feel like my whole life. You know I was a dancer. I was a dancer when I was growing up, and I just loved moving my body. But as I went through puberty suddenly I became a very curvy girl. I had, I mean, overnight, you know, by the time my freshman year I was a double d, and I had big hips and big thighs. I kind of have a you know, curvy but athletic, muscular body, and it didn't fit the mold of being a dancer. As a matter of fact, my my junior year of high school. I was not. I was not allowed to join the pom squad, because they literally told me I my body was distracting like that. My boobs were too bouncy that it was. It was too sexy like you think about that. And I'm like, Oh, my God!Right, and that there's these messages that just kept telling me that my body was wrong. The very first night I was in Boot camp you brought up being a veteran. The very first night I went to. They made me stand at attention for 45 minutes because they didn't know what to do with me, because I had. I had scored a perfect score on the Asvab, which means I could basically do whatever job in the military I wanted, but I was 2 pounds under their weight limit, and they were like.The first words that were told to me is like Skaggs. That was my maiden name with Skaggs. They're like “Skaggs. You are lazy. That's your problem.”Maureen: Oh!Kori: So, yeah, so there was this and that carried with me. Lazy. You're lazy because they looked at my body, and they said, You know they looked at my weight. They looked at my body, even though I was. Oh, my gosh! I was 146 pounds, by the way, like, really, this is ridiculous here. But they said that I just I didn't care about my body, and that I was lazy, and that message was carried around for a decade, and I internalized all of these messages that my body was wrong, that I was. You know I was also hyper sexualized in in the military. And you know, experienced a lot of things that I shouldn't have had to go through because of that. And you know, after I got out suddenly, I realized I had a lot of feelings about my body, and they were not. They weren't good. They weren't good.
So then, you know, I really did have to come face the music a little bit about that relationship with my body, because it really was hurting me, and I didn't realize it. So when I came to that point of compassion. Suddenly I realized that relationship was so severely damaged. and I remember crying one day when I had this insight that my body was my soul's mate. I just had this beautiful concept that my soul came here to earth to express itself, to do its mission to, you know, whatever my soul came here to do, and that my body was here to support that. And so they literally are a team together. And I had been hating this other part of me, and it like I was almost crushing when I have remember, I remember just bawling my eyes out when I realized that. And so I decided from that day on that I was going to get to know who this souls mate was, who my souls may, who my body was, and that changed everything. That was years ago when that happened. And it just, everything changed after that.Maureen: Good for you, and I mean, I want to acknowledge to the trauma that led to the shame around your body right? Because it's not just that people were making these comments about your body. It was what they, what these comments meant about who you are as a person. This idea of laziness based on your physical appearance, which is, you know, so much driven by genetics, to begin with. [Editor’s note: and zip-code]Kori: Right.
Maureen: And then. But really like it wasn't just that they're commenting on your body. They're they're making it mean something about you. And that's how we get to this idea of shame, which is basically I always want to clarify. Shame and guilt are different. Shame is, I am bad, and guilt is, I did something bad and. Really getting to to see that difference. And self-compassion is when we can look at ourselves and say, at the core, we are okay. We are good, we have good intentions, we do our best, and sometimes we will make actions that are not in alignment with our own values.
For so many reasons that happens and be able to say, and I love myself anyway, and that could also be, I'm neutral about my body, anyway. It doesn't to me. It doesn't have to be that I love my body every day or every single way. I try to have more of a body neutrality perspective personally, but you can still have self compassion, even when you are still struggling with your body. And I would say that they're they're very related. I just really wanted to to talk about that more. That idea of of shame and self-compassion is the only way through really.Kori: It really is. There's this saying, I like to say is that curiosity is the cure for judgment. When we when we bring curiosity to any situation, whether it's about our bodies or in relationships or anything right, we suddenly step into a vibration of like that's outside of judgment. You cannot be curious about something, and judge at the same time, it's impossible. Yeah, and so, I think when it came to my body like, that's where the the compassion was able to come in is like, I started to get curious about this, this, this thing right, this this you know, part of me that has always been here. And curious about how I relate to that part of myself. And suddenly I wasn't criticizing myself as much. I stopped walking by the mirror and saying, You're disgusting, like I right those things that we do, I mean. Oh, my gosh, we all do, and it's very relatable. And I remember feeling how hard like, how hard that was, and how damaging that was now that I look back on it.
But but when I was in the thick of it. The curiosity is what allowed that compassion to come in, because suddenly it I looked at it through new eyes, instead of saying, You know, oh, my stomach is, you know, fat and ugly. I actually got curious about why my stomach, I had gained weight in my stomach turns out that my body was actually trying to save my life because I was insulin resistant. So like, when I started getting curious about what actually had happened to my body. Suddenly I no longer felt that anger and resentment, and carried that shame. I was able to let some of that go because of that curiosity.Maureen: I'm curious what you think about this: we we still, even when we bring ourselves that compassion and that curiosity, we can still struggle with negative self-talk. I mean, I certainly deal with this all the time. I've made huge strides towards being more positive about my body and feeling more comfortable, and dressing the way that I want to not just based on what I think I should be wearing. But you know there are moments where I still look in the mirror I feel in my body, and I'm like, Oh, that's I still struggle with that. I'm curious. If you relate to that at all, and how you how you handle that, you know, knowing that we're not always going to have positive thoughts about our body, just because in general we're feeling better about it.Kori: Yeah, absolutely. I, it's, you know, I would be remiss to say, that, oh, yeah, I, every single day, I'm like, oh, my gosh, Buddy, you're amazing. But what I do is, I build things into my schedule that actually make me feel good about my body, and I do that consistently so.
For example, one of the things I do is I set aside time every single day, and have built my business around, making sure that I take care of myself in the morning, and that means I'm getting, you know, if I'm breaking my fast, you know, at that particular time I have nutrition that supports my body in that way, so, you know, supports my gut or supports my health. I'm making sure that I'm doing movement that brings me joy, and that does not come from a place of abuse. Right? Because I did that for a decade, where I abused my body and was told to abuse my body, and that I that was horrible. Now that's not the place that I come from. I come from a place of love and joy generation rather than I have to be thinner or be, you know, change my body because I don't like the way it looks. It's more like, I get to come back to a place of self-love in that in that space. And so by those consistent actions. Suddenly, now that negative self-talk, it becomes less and less because I'm intentionally building in things that that makes me feel strong. That reminds me that I'm capable reminds me that my body is capable. And when I do those things. Suddenly the self-talk, it gets a lot smaller. The negative stuff talk, I mean, yeah.Maureen: And maybe this is a tricky question. But can you think of how the experience of moving your body today feels different in comparison to when you were abusing your body?Kori: Oh, my gosh! So last year I had started doing a program on Beachbody called Fire and Flow, and I remember this moment where I had just finished a workout, and , who's of the trainers in this program. She she I don't even remember what she said exactly, but there was this feeling I had that I was actually nourishing myself, and that the movement that I was doing was loving me, not hating me, and this moment that I had. I start, I'm sweating, and I'm bawling. overwhelms me with emotion, because suddenly I was like realized I was doing something that was caring for me, and not making me feel like a piece of crap, you know, and and I had been in that space, and really had begun to resent movement. And you know, like I had a lot of unpack a lot of that, because I resented moving my body because I was forced to do it so for so long. And told that my body was wrong and forced to make it smaller. And then suddenly, I needed to get back into a space where I realized movement actually is more than that, it's about loving my mind and helping me relieve my anxiety and helping me feel stronger and more flexible, and like all these things. And so now I was able to see that movement was not about shrinking myself. Movement was actually about loving myself.Maureen: Oh, man, that's so powerful, I think. I don't know if you're very familiar with positive psychology.
Kori: Absolutely.Maureen: Yeah, I just hear this overlap with moving towards good rather than trying to avoid bad right? And when you're in that kind of abusive state you're trying. You're you're afraid of your body. You're afraid of being fat. You're afraid of getting fat. You're afraid of what people will say about you, or you're afraid ofwhat barriers your body might create, or society will create around your body. Right. And then the positive psychology of you know moving towards positive is, you know, when I do, Yoga, I feel more relaxed. I feel more able to go back to my work day. Through the rest of the day I feel more able to show up for my family. I feel more strong, It just seems like you're really encompassing those positive psychology practices.Kori: Oh, my gosh, you I mean, like I'm sitting here. I'm like pointing on my nose. I was like you hit the nail on the head in terms of my personal philosophy. You know this is what I teach my clients in in wellness or in, you know, if they're trying to make moves in their career or improve their relationships. The thing is is that the more that we focus on the negative pieces, then the more the energy that we're feeding it.
I mean, you had said something about that fear of being judged for our bodies, or negative consequences for our bodies being the way it was, and I literally lived with that for a decade, because I was always under threat of getting kicked out like if you were not making weight. You were losing your job, and that was, I mean, the stress that came from that which also raised my cortisol was which meant I was not losing weight like, and like. I realize that mental, that mentality, and how much I would love to go back to that Kori and say, sister, like here, you know, come back to love and come back to like you said, using that positive psychology mindset of, you know, moving towards what you want instead of away from what you don't like when you start focusing. You know. I think you know says that, like what you you know, where where attention goes, energy flows. And and that is so true because the more you focus on that care, that self-care that I'm moving for care. I'm moving because it makes me joyful because it connects me to myself because it, you know it feels good. The more you focus on that, the easier it becomes.Maureen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I suppose we should talk about clothing.Kori: Maybe we should get to that point.Maureen: We talked a little bit at the beginning about making your “outsides match your insides, and I would just love to hear, how do you decide what to buy or wear today? How do you decide what not to buy or wear?Kori: Yeah, I love that. I love these questions. They're so amazing. So how do I decide what to buy or what to wear. I had this amazing exercise that I got inspired by one day. I don't even remember where it came from, but I asked myself in my journal, I said, how would I dress if I didn't think I was fat?
Maureen: Yeah!Kori: And then suddenly, I was just like I would dress. I would wear my ties again, and I would put on lace and my leather pants and pencil, you know, just like I would wear my, you know, I just wrote out this whole thing. I was like, Oh, my gosh! That's how I actually want to dress. And I realized that. And so I made a commitment to myself that day. And I said, Okay, I'm not going to buy anything else unless it fits inside this kind of style value like that's what I called it like. It's like my values about my style. And unless it's very intentional, like, Okay, I'm not going out in my corset to go feed the chickens, guys. Okay.
But I mean, you know, I am wearing a T-shirt that feels, you know, good to me in terms of my color or expression. So even in that space, like my workout clothes or things like that, I'm very intentional about what I buy and does it fit within my personal style value. And, you know, on a daily basis, like what I choose. Why, you know how I choose what I want to wear daily. Well, that's like a fun little game I like to do. I go into my closet, and I ask myself, you know, kind of ask my inner self, or even my inner child and say, What would you like to wear today? And she's like, Oh, pick this and pick this. And so I just do that. And you know I have some freedom in that. I work from home, and I, you know, get to kind of play with my style a little bit. But even when I'm going for a speaking engagement, or or, you know, out to a workshop like I still play that game, because that's how I bring the curiosity, the play the part of me that wants to express herself, and it gets me out of my head. And I'm able to fully show up as myself, and in authenticity that way.
Maureen: I've done some inner child therapy. So I'm very familiar with that concept. But for anyone who's listening, who, you know, maybe isn't as familiar with inner child. How well, besides, what it is, maybe. Can you talk about how you you know when you are getting dressed? How do you tap into that inner child. I want to be really practical.Kori: Yeah, really practical. Honestly, I would say that music helps me do that honestly.Maureen: Oh!Kori: We were kind of talking about this before we started talking. But I have like curated playlists that I have on my phone. That's very specific. That gets me into a certain mood. So if I want to tap into my inner child, I'll listen to music that feels uplifting that I used to love as a kid. Typically things like you know, I was. I was a teenager during the boy band, so I'll put on ‘Nysnc and dance around my room for a minute. So you know, getting tapping into this inner child, part of you requires, like a little bit of movement and kind of that shift, you know. Nostalgia kind of helps a lot as well gets you into that space and and smiling just even doing that can help you connect with a little bit more playfulness and a little bit more authenticity. And so I literally do that before I go into my closet I find a way totap in, and it's almost I had to think about it for a minute, because it's almost just like automatic. Because I get into that state. And but when I do, I feel like I feel so much better, because there's also times where I'm not wanting to be super vibrant. And that changes, you know, throughout my cycle, wherever I'm at in my cycle, you know. Sometimes I want to dress up like a villain right? Which is also kind of fun, you know, like, sometimes I want to dress up like a bad guy, and I'm like, how would I dress if I was a bad guy today. And then I put on my jean jacket, and you know, like my spiky earrings and things like that. So that's a it's really just kind of tuning in like, how am I feeling today? Who do? I want to express myself today?And you know that getting into that vibe is, you know, that's kind of a part of that self trust of like getting to know who you are and knowing who you are throughout. You know your cycle or throughout your kind of emotional patterns. And it's it's a lot of fun when you do that.Maureen: I've been thinking a lot about dressing as my inner child and and someone on Substack, Lindsay Sword, had posted this this thing about styling sweater vests, and when I was in like elementary school, I had multiple sweater vests from the gap that I wore on like repeat. I just got a new sweater vest, and I was like absolutely like obsessed with it. I'm just curious, you know. Are there any things that you wore as a kid, that you are literally like kind of thinking about today, or even colors, or what did little Kori wear?Kori: Oh, my! Gosh, have a picture of me sitting over here on on one of my where I'm like sitting on a merry-go-round, and I'm wearing this bright teal sweater with like all kinds of stuff on it, and teals teals like one of my favorite colors. So I remember just loving wearing bright things, and you know, we you know, grew up shopping secondhand, you know. And and so I remember always going to the goodwill and and finding the most colorful things that I could. And so I think, as I've gotten older, been able to play with color and find the ways that I want to express myself has been really fun to see. You know, this kind of idea of what I thought was cool, or what I thought I was fun, you know, especially growing up in the late eighties early nineties like there was color everywhere. So, and then, having the tease. Bangs, I mean, Jeez, I've already got, you know, teasing my bags so like I mean, because my bangs literally stood straight up as a kid. They called me Porcupine, because my literally stood straight up, and I'm like, Oh, look well, I guess this works now, because my hair naturally wants to do this swoosh. So yeah, like, really bringing that those kinds of things in and just not taking myself so seriously. Yeah. And I love this like idea of what you said with the sweater vest. I'm like, oh, what did like? I have to think about that, because I love that idea that is so great bringing that in. And it sounds like it makes you happy too.For whatever reason, when I was a kid I just thought they were the absolute, coolest thing, and no one was wearing them, no one. Just me. So that's how I know it's authentic.There you go exactly, and you get to do that. And the thing is is like people might look at you like funny, like I know when I show up in my bright as pink, you know, jacket and pants and all these things like, sometimes people are like, Whoa, okay, but I realized, too, when I stopped when I stopped dressing for other people's approval and started dressing for my own approval. I just got so much freer and so much happier, and you know it. Really, it really makes a difference.I love that. Let's talk a little bit about body awareness. We've talked about how you bring yourself into that kind of childlike wonder space when you're getting dressed. But when you are picking out what to to wear, do you pay attention to texture, fit, or style that feel physically comfortable on your body or on the other side of that. Do you ever wear something that's intentionally uncomfortable because it puts you into a certain headspace. I'm curious about that, too.I love this because I realized being, you know. So, being a professional speaker and a person who's out in the, you know, kind of out there on stages and doing things. I had started looking at different women and what they were doing kind of in my industry. And I realized a lot of them wear heels. And I, when I first started speaking, I had this like choice point where I realized I was like, Well, I get to choose how I want to show up. And I realized, I jump around on stage. I move around an awful lot, and I was like, I don't. I do not want to do that in heels, and so I made a choice. I was like, I'm not going to speak in heels. I'm going to speak in my chucks, because that's what I love to wear, and they're comfortable, and that gives me the freedom to move around and to not like worry about my feet because I don't want to be worrying about my feet when I've been standing on stage for an hour and a half, like I want to be serving the people that I came there. I want to be, you know, in flow. I don't want to be worrying about my feet. So yeah, I made a choice like right then and there. I was like, I'm not going to wear heels to speak, even though heels, I mean aesthetically.
Sure. I mean. You know they make you taller. I'm kind of short. I'm a Shorty girl. I'm about , so you know it. Would it make my legs look longer and kind of things, sure. But bro, I'm like I. And so, you know, I'm sure there's other things, too. But I feel like that particular point is like you making the choice about how you want to show up and realizing that actually comfort in that regards actually does matter because it it is distracting. If you're not feeling comfortable. The textures of the clothes you're wearing, or things are too tight or or just, you know, for the sake of again, kind of like this external approval. And if you do make that choice to wear something, then be intentional with it. Don't just be like, Oh, I'm going to wear these heels because they expect me to. It's like, Oh, I'm going to wear these heels because I feel like today. I want to be in that space. Maybe I want to feel extra sexy. Or maybe there's something you know, particularly like you said a feeling I want to come into. But you best believe I'm gonna have a pair of sneakers in my bag.
Maureen: I love that clarity. And you know I asked that question about purposefully wearing something uncomfortable right? Because, you know, for example, the comedian . You know I don't necessarily agree with everything that she says or does, but I've been watching a lot of her interviews, and she talks about how she wears these like sky high heels to perform in, and she's in such a flow state with her comedy, anyway, that when she's on stage she like puts them on. And then it's like, Okay, it's go time. She's totally fine wearing them for the whole performance, and only when she's done with the performance do her feet hurt, and she wants to take them off.
But I thought that was like so fascinating. It's almost like this, yeah, to what you're saying, like changing from like normal Nikki to stage Nikki, or whatever you know. And I think that's really interesting. But you know, going back to to your performance like you want to be yourself all the time, maybe, and and just really kind of have let your shoes not be the focus.Kori: Yeah, I feel like it's, you know, and I can definitely see what she's kind of saying in that space of like stepping into that person that's on stage. And and it's almost like kind of turning up the volume a little bit, because that does help you get into flow. And you know. I know that there's, you know, there's kind of certain variations of things, you know, days when I'll maybe not turn my volume all the way up when I'm choosing my clothes, or things like that, you know, wanting to be a little bit more casual, but I do know that there is that like I have this hot pink blazer that I wear, and every time I put that thing on man I just feel like a million bucks.
And so I reserve that jacket for when I need that space, because it does help me get into that space. Now, granted, it's fitted for me, and it feels good and everything like that, too. But there is. There is definitely something to be said about that about having something that helps you click, into flow, and like a trigger, so to speak, and so I feel like clothes can do that. Certainly they can be something that can amplify you, if you need some confidence, to go in and talk to your boss about a raise, or, if you need to, you know, have a conversation with somebody that might be difficult. Then yeah, find the thing in your closet that makes you feel great and put that on because it does help a lot.Maureen: I love that like making space for the multiplicity of of human experience, like, we don't have to elevate comfort exclusively. There are other ways. But personally I love being comfortable. So, I always try to balance my own kind of preferences.
We're recording this towards the start of , I guess we're we're months in now, but it feels like it's still just beginning. Do you have any style or personal goals you're excited to work towards this year?Kori: Well, I feel like I've really got a good handle on my, on my wardrobe and where it's going. But I need to start this like, I wrote this down. I love this question because I need to get my stuff tailored like I realized. And I remember that you know, in my image back when I was a image consultant like. I would tell my clients that all the time get your stuff tailored, because clothes right off the rack are not meant for your body. And now that I have this like expanded view of what my body is now, I'm like even more so like I need to step back into a space of like making things fit me, instead of expecting that my body fits everything else, and I feel like that is just such the narrative of my life like there was always this expect expectation that my body fit every external viewpoint, regulation, you know, standard of image or whatever. And I'm at this point now where I'm like, I'm going to make my clothes fit my body, and you know I'm kind of going through some changes in my health, and you know I've been on weight loss journey, and and, you know, getting myself back to health and reclaiming myself after after the challenges I went through. And so tailoring is absolutely becoming more and more necessary, as my body is kind of changing in that way. So I have made that commitment, you know. Thanks to you asking that question. I'm like, What's my goal this year? Yeah, get my stuff tailored so that way I feel. I'm getting the most out of my wardrobe, and it really, truly does fit me and my body.
Maureen: Good for you, good for you.
Kori: It makes a difference. It really does. I, you know I tell people that like it makes a difference, especially with things like that are a little bit more structured. You know, blazers and and jackets, or even but even pair of jeans like getting a pair of jeans tailored. Wow! You can take a pair of jeans from target and elevate those to make them look like they're from Vonmar, okay? Or or Nordstrom like you really can, with a bit of tailoring. And it's definitely not you know, in terms of an investment, a cost investment. It's pennies on the dollar to those kind of other things, so.Maureen: Before we wrap up. I really wanted to go back to this idea of you said it so well, it was like dressing for other people's approval versus your approval. And I was just really hoping you could expand on that a little bit, because I think that's the core of what intuitive style is. And it's not to me not necessarily negating the fact that we're social people, and we care about other people's opinions. But this notion of approval, and how, we decide what we approve or not approve. Can you share a little bit more about that? That concept?Kori: Yeah, I I love this idea of what you're encapsulating here with the approval aspect like, who's approval? Whose approval are we seeking? Is it other people? Or is it ours and understanding that feel like the bridge? There is really about intention.
I like to think about the intentional energy I'm bringing to the space right when I when I dress to go out on a date with my with my partner, like, I want to feel sexy. And yeah, I want, you know, there's an extra action there. So there is thought here that I bring like, what does you know he find attractive. You know he really likes my butt, so I like to wear. You know I have these pair of like Spanx, like leather pleather leggings that I wear, and you know, and I love wearing them, and he loves them. And so there's this part of me that's bringing this intentional energy that we're creating together during an experience through my wardrobe. And that, you know, am I dressing for his approval? Well, in a sense, maybe. But it's different. It's not like I'm only thinking about him. It's I'm thinking about him and me, and who I want to be in this space, and I do that for everything. If I'm doing a speaking engagement. If I have an interview with somebody, if I'm meeting friend for coffee, like, I really spend a lot of time thinking about who do I want to be in this space, and when I do that I find that I show up way more as an authentic person, and not just dressing, because I think that they're going to approve of me. It is considering them right different places, you know. I'm probably going to dress differently with my friend than I will with my, you know, with my partner like that's that naturally makes sense. But when I am more intentional about that.And choose outfits that reflect who I want to be that day. Then I find that that external approval, just like dissipates it goes away, and it really becomes a kind of a collaborative or a community, you know, kind of like you said, we're social creatures. So there is something that's kind of being formed together. But it'syou know it's definitely I'm bringing myself back into that conversation instead of just it just being about other people.Maureen: I love that and such great examples. Thank you for sharing. Kori, this has been incredible. I've learned so much. I love your question about you know. What would I wear if I didn't think I was fat? I love the suggestion of listening to nostalgic music when I get dressed, or when I play in my closet definitely haven't done that in a while. What other advice would you give to someone who's trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive to them?
Kori: Just really get to know who you are now. We are dynamic creatures, and we are always evolving. And I think sometimes we go through so much in our lives, you know, if we become moms, or maybe we have a weight change. Or you know, we go through these things, and sometimes we'll look back at pictures, and be like Gosh! I wish I was her again. Gosh! I wish I was back at that weight again. Gosh! I wish I was like right. We look backwards, and I think the more that we come back to this space now, and really get to know who we are now and then start expressing ourselves from that point forward. Now we feel aligned. Now we feel like we feel more genuine in this representation, and no longer are we feeling resentful, or even that shame of that change. Now we are really stepping into who this person is. Right here right now and then who she can come through and step out into the world without. You know that. like we said that external approval. So yeah, just get to know who you are, and that you'll find that when you start matching your matching your outsides with your insides suddenly you feel just much more. You every day.Maureen: I love that that's incredible. And I so relate to that idea I used to. Yeah, like, look longingly at pictures of myself when I was thinner, and I was like, if I just looked like that again. But I've put in so much work to like, be at peace with who I am, and how I want to dress that when I look back on those pictures now, I don't feel that anymore. I just feel like oh, she had no idea how like wrapped up in her body she was, and how obsessed with being thin she was. And now, when I look at those pictures, I don't want to go back there. I don't want to. I don't envy her.
I just feel like, Oh, wow! She needed some love, and you couldn't necessarily see that based on like what we think when we look at a thin person. But I see it. And yeah, I just, I think that's such an incredible incredible truth that you brought up there, which is just, you know, when you're actually living authentically, the the size or your weight. It's just really or whatever you're going through really becomes secondary.Kori: I love that! And I resonate with that so much? There were pictures I looked at, from before I went through all of my challenges you know, in the last decade. And and yeah, I remember looking at myself when I was 120 pounds and thinking, Gosh. You know, she was so awesome. She was so, you know, beautiful blah blah. And but you know, similarly, just like you came back to a space and said. Actually, you know, I don't want to go back to that person, because I now know how incredibly strong I am. I now know how incredibly resilient I am through all the things that I went through, and you know what my body was helping me the whole time. Take care of me. When I was really struggling to take care of myself, and for that I am so grateful. And now I get to bring that wisdom and share, you know, share my story and help others also feel like, Hey, it's okay that we aren't. You know that size that we used to be. And it's okay to focus on our health and our wellness, and, you know, come back to that space. But the more that we realize that, hey, I can be vibrant now, I can feel like myself now, and I don't have to criticize that part of me. Then then, the more that I feel like that compassion comes in, and we really truly feel more alive.Maureen: This has been so much fun and just so eye-opening. And I really hope that everybody gets to listen to listen to this and hear you speak about this topic. And so, speaking of which, where can listeners find you? How do they catch up with what Kori’s up to?Kori: Oh, my gosh, I love this so you can catch me on Instagram at Kori Rae Wellness, or find me on Facebook. I have an amazing group on Facebook called Lead like a Woman. And it is a place where we are ditching the hustle. And we're really stepping into this space of confidence, and leading with our heart and living vibrant lives through prioritization of self-care and building community and collaboration. Because I really feel like the more that women are lit up from within, the more that we can change the world. So you can find lead like a woman on Facebook. And I would be just truly honored for any of you that would like to join to get inside a sisterhood of space where we're talking about taking care of ourselves, you know, from a loving standpoint, and then taking our missions and our purposes out into the world, so we can truly make the changes that we desire to see in the world, and it starts with us.Maureen: Incredible, and for anyone who is maybe not identifying as a woman at this point in time is that a safe space for them as well?Absolutely. I feel like, I mean, we didn't really talk a whole lot about that particular subject. But there is, you know, I use a lot of divine feminine type of energy, and whether you identify as a woman or non-binary, or you know, whatever your identification is, you know, I'm also a member of the LGBTQ community, and I understand that there's, you know, a lot of challenges in those spaces. But I always create a space of safety, and you know how people want to express themselves. It really is about, you know, we talk a lot about cycles, and we talk about, you know, living through kind of this cyclical rhythm of self. And so there's there's certainly opportunity here. And I use this term woman as a kind of a reclamation of self. And and so, you know, I get it. It might not be for everybody, but absolutely inside that space is is a very, you know. I'm very, very conscious about creating safe space, and for people to, you know, use the pronouns and and have people use the pronouns that are appropriate for them and them to express themselves. But it really is truly about coming back to our personal values of who we are and leaning into, you know, feminine leadership rather than you know. Patriarchal type, type, leadership. There.I just wanted to make sure that the right people were getting the message. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No. It was a great question. Thank you.Thank you so much. Well, I will let you get back to the rest of your day!Oh, thank you so much, Maureen. It's been truly a pleasure to be able to talk with you, and an honor to share with your community.
Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton.
In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.
Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.
Episode 05. How to dress intuitively, with Sogole Kane
Friday, February 21, 2025 • Duration 48:13
Popular Substack writer, communications executive and 20+ year veteran of the fashion and beauty industry, Sogole Kane joins me for this week’s episode.
Episode Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Welcome
Welcome to Intuitive Style. My name is Maureen Welton.Today's episode is a great one featuring Sogole Kane from Another Fashion Newsletter on Substack. I had such a great time chatting with her about her experience with personal style, her concept of intuitive dressing in 2025. Plus, I got some advice from her on how to bring fun back into my wardrobe after getting really analytical about what I was wearing. Sogole also shares her experience turning the corner on postpartum after about seven years of her body being in constant flux, and how excited she is to be coming back to her self and dressing for herself moving forward.
I hope you enjoy.
Maureen
You posted a somewhat recent post about wanting 2025 to be the year of Intuitive Styling. Obviously I couldn't agree more. So, for anyone who hasn't had a chance to read your post, would you just kick us off by sharing what what intuitive style means to you?
Sogole
Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, it's a great question. Because I think the crux of intuitive style is ultimately and what it means to each individual person, because that's the true reflection of intuition. Right? So what it might mean to me could be different, to what it means to you or somebody else. And I think that's kind of the bigger message.
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Episode 04. What you can learn from tracking your daily outfits, with Stephanie Johnson
Friday, February 14, 2025 • Duration 38:05
This week, Stephanie Johnson joins me for a conversation about her Hard 75 Style challenge, how working as a shopping Editor impacted her style journey, and her brief dip into Jersey shore style in high school. Enjoy!
Episode Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Welcome
Welcome to Intuitive Style. I'm Maureen Welton. On this podcast, we explore the overlap between mindfulness and personal style.
Today's guest, Stephanie Johnson, demonstrates week over week in her Substack newsletter, The Green Apple, what intuitive dressing looks like in practice. In our conversation, we talk about how her professional experience in fashion has influenced her personal style, how she modifies an outfit for a day in Brooklyn versus a day in Manhattan and about her hard seventy-five style series.
I'm delighted to share this episode with you.
Let's start by talking about your newsletter, which is how we met. Would you just tell us a little bit about [The Green Apple], please?
Yeah. So, I started this newsletter, I want to say two years ago and I wrote like Three newsletters and then I, I kind of stopped sending them out. I got really into it again this past summer and I, I've been more consistent, but it was, it was really an outlet for me to write about what I wanted to write about. I worked for fashion digital magazines previously and a lot of what I wrote about was dictated by an editor or client so I just really wanted to write about style in a way that wasn't filtered and wasn't sponsored. So that's what I get to do.
And it's mostly about personal style and just the way we show up authentically in the world and how we dress ourselves.
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Episode 03. The behavioral-science-backed reason we may not shop in alignment with our values, with Michelle Handy phD
Friday, February 7, 2025 • Duration 34:02
On this week’s episode, my real-life friend and previous co-worker, Michelle Handy phD joins us to share her expertise in behavioral science as relates to personal style. Enjoy!
Episode Transcript
Welcome
Welcome to Intuitive Style. I'm Maureen Welton. On this podcast, we explore the overlap between mindfulness and personal style. Today's guest, Michelle Handy, is a behavioral scientist, personal style enthusiast and yoga teacher. Today, we talk about the overlap between all of these areas, and so a little bit about Michelle's personal style and generally have a fun conversation. Hope you enjoy.
Maureen
Hi, Michelle. It's so nice to see you. How are you doing today?
Michelle
I'm doing great. So happy to be here.
Maureen
I am really excited to talk with you as well. I know we've had quite a few offline discussions around personal style and how that relates to behavioral science. And so I'm just really excited to share what we've talked about with our audience today. And I know that your expertise is so relevant to many aspects of our lives. So let's let's talk about what behavioral science can teach us about getting dressed. So just before we get started, would you please say your first and last name and your pronouns?
Michelle
Hi, everyone. Michelle Handy, pronouns She her hers.
Maureen
To kick us off, you're an experienced behavioral scientist. You're also a yoga teacher and personal style enthusiast. So we have so much that we can cover Would you share what behavioral science is?
Michelle
Yeah. So behavioral science is a field that studies human behavior to improve outcomes like well-being and productivity. And it combines knowledge from many different disciplines, including psychology, sociology, economics, even neuroscience. It's essentially the study of why people do what they do and applying it in the real world to make things better.
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Episode 02. How to make fashion inspiration work for you, with Kelly Williams
Friday, January 31, 2025 • Duration 47:09
This week, my internet-friend, Kelly Williams joins for a lively chat about the origins of the term Midimalist, how to stay on top of trends without losing your own identity, how Kelly decides what to buy, and her advice for anyone trying to build an authentic wardrobe. Enjoy!
Episode Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Welcome to Intuitive Style. I'm very excited to share this week's episode with you. I got a chance to sit down and chat with the creator behind Substack newsletter, Midimalist. Kelly Williams and her newsletter are such a delight to follow. She's always sharing actionable and insightful style tips, and she's always cheering up the comments section with just delightful commentary and praise. Without further ado, enjoy the episode.
Maureen: Hi, Kelly. It's so nice to sit down and talk with you today. How are you doing?
Kelly: I am doing so good, Maureen. Thank you for having me on your podcast.
Maureen:I'm so excited. I know we've had plenty of virtual discussions over the last couple of months on Substack, and it's just really nice to learn even more about what you're doing with Midimalist and have a conversation around what it means to dress intuitively. Would you please share your first and last name and your pronouns?
Kelly: Of course. Kelly Williams. She/her/hers.
Maureen: You coined the term midimalist, which to me it signifies you have a great sense of understanding of your personal style and also how your style relates to the rest of the zeitgeist. Could you tell us a little bit about midimalism and how you came up with this term?
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Episode 01. Learning how to listen to ourselves, with Dacy Gillespie
Friday, January 24, 2025 • Duration 40:40
You’re listening to the first episode of Intuitive Style!
I’m so delighted to have Dacy Gillespie as our first guest on Intuitive Style. I seriously couldn’t think of anyone better to help me introduce the concept of this podcast. Each episode offers practical tools and real-world examples to help you quiet external noise, trust your instincts, and create a wardrobe that helps you feel comfortable, confident, and truly yourself.
Episode Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Welcome
Hello and welcome to the first episode of Intuitive Style. I'm your host, Maureen. Together, we'll explore the connection between mindfulness and personal style. We're all searching for a personal style, but what if it's been within us all along and we just haven't learned how to listen? Today's guest is all about teaching us how to listen to our intuition.
Thank you so much for having me. It's good so far.
Maureen
Great. I'm so excited to talk with you today. I know there's so much overlap between the kinds of things that we're doing online and just really excited to sit down and talk with you today. Just to get us started, could you just really quickly say your first and last name and your pronouns?
Get full access to Intuitive Style at
Introducing...Intuitive Style...the Podcast!
Wednesday, January 22, 2025 • Duration 00:59
It’s time to take Substack personal style discourse into the real world—the recording booth!
I’m so excited to share my new podcast series, Intuitive Style.
Through solo reflections and thoughtful conversations, we’ll explore how practicing mindfulness and self-awareness can transform the way we get dressed. Each episode, you’ll walk away with strategies for tapping into your own style intuition, ultimately helping you shop and dress in alignment with your values.
We’ll explore how to dress intuitively—without judgment.
If you’re ready to start listening to your own style intuition, hit subscribe, and don’t miss our first full episode featuring anti-diet stylist Dacy Gillespie.
Let me know in the comments, is there anyone you want me to interview?
Episode 07. Having fun with personal style, with Corinne Fay
Friday, March 7, 2025 • Duration 44:50
Today's guest is Corinne Fay from Substack newsletter, Big Undies. Corinne is also the co-host of the Indulgence Gospel with Virginia Sole-Smith, and the creator of SellTradePlus. We have a chat about her love of denim shirts, creating community online, and the importance of letting go of perfectionism so we can have fun with clothing.
Episode Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe everyone has style. Through conversations with inspiring guests, we explore how to tune into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.
Maureen: Can you tell us a little bit about SellTrade Plus specifically and the gap that you are hoping to address by starting that platform?
Corinne: Yeah, so I started SellTradePlus in, I think it was 2018, a long time ago now. And I was really addicted to a few different resale accounts on Instagram. But I was like, I was feeling like I was seeing... Dozens if not hundreds of posts for stuff that wasn't in my size for every one that was in my size. And I also felt like there were certain things that like I needed to be able to buy clothes in that way, such as like garment measurements that weren't always there. And I was also thinking, like, if I went to a thrift store and I were shopping for myself, I would just go, I would walk in the door, I would go straight to the section that was my size. So I was just like, why not have a resale account that's just plus size? So we can kind of narrow in a little bit.
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Episode 08. The power of interrogating our style influences, with Laura de Valencia Kirk
Friday, March 14, 2025 • Duration 43:46
Artist, writer and Caribbean-Colombian woman, Laura De Valencia Kirk joins me for today’s episode. I so enjoyed talking with her; she’s exactly as insightful and fascinating in real-life as you’d expect from her writing. Enjoy!
Episode Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Maureen
You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition, so that we can dress authentically and live fully.
Today's guest is the writer of La Deeply Shallow, a Substack newsletter that somehow manages to be both philosophical and playful, ultimately acting as an open invitation to play with fashion and take from fashion what you wish and leave the rest. You've seen her styling sweatpants like never before, artfully weaving social commentary into posts ostensibly about clothing, and generally being an editorial queen. Welcome to the show, Laura De Valencia Kirk.
Laura
Thank you for having me. I'm very honored to be here.
Maureen
I'm so excited to hear more from you. So, as I already mentioned, your newsletter, La Deeply Shallow, is so beautiful. For anyone who hasn't read your work yet, would you introduce the concept and your approach to writing about fashion and personal style?
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Episode 11. Being gentle with ourselves, with Sushmita from Ethical Fat Fashion
Friday, April 4, 2025 • Duration 53:20
Sushmita and I cover the identity politics of slow fashion, unequal access to ethically made clothing, and how Sushmita is ready to be gentler with herself.
Episode Transcript
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.
Today's guest, Sushmita , is the writer and artist behind Ethical Fat Fashion . She's well known for her size-inclusive ethical fashion brand directory, zines, and fashion/political commentary.
Maureen: Yay! Yes, I'm so happy that you decided to come on.
To kick things off, I love the mission behind your newsletter, Ethical Fat Fashion. For anyone unfamiliar, can you share what EFF is all about?
Sushmita: Yeah, of course. I mean, it's been a few years, and I'm still figuring it out, but Ethical Fat Fashion started off as a brand directory. This was 2021, 2022. I was sourcing size-inclusive and size-diverse brands—brands that started from a 2X or a US 20. From there, I switched to Patreon and started making digital zines, exploring a whole host of different issues. I was talking about body image, movie reviews—anything and everything I wanted to put in there, I did.
That eventually brought me to Substack last year. I wanted something more frequent. The zines were seasonal, but now I post every single week, and the content changes all the time. The thread running through it is the idea of ethical fashion, but I’m looking at it from different angles—especially how our bodies and fashion connect, including how we view ourselves and how that affects how we dress.
Get full access to Intuitive Style at
Maureen:
Kori:
Maureen:
Kori:
Kori:
Maureen:
Kori:
Maureen:
Kori:
But but really, what I was trying to get across in that post and also just my general way of thinking for this year and beyond, is to really listen to our instincts, to our intuition, to our gut when making fashion and style choices, because ultimately that's where we're going to see the the best representation of ourselves. And usually when you feel like you're representing yourself in the best way possible, that's when true confidence and comfort in your own skin tends to shine through.
And, that's that's the holy grail, right? I feel like the reason we're all here on Substack or on social media talking and about style and sharing outfit photos and engaging in the discourse is because I think we're all interested ultimately in how do we achieve that, that feeling of, feeling 100% confident and comfortable in our own skin and in the image that we are projecting out there into the world.
And I think in intuitive style, the way to do it because, it helps us stay true to who we are and to what's important to us. I mean, I'm getting real deep here, but, like, what do we really value? Not just in style and fashion, which can sometimes feels, you know, superficial, which, I disagree. I think it's not superficial at all, but that's a whole different topic. But I think, just in life, like how, how do we what do we value in life and how do we reflect those values in the way that we are communicating to other people? And one of the biggest ways we communicate to each other is through fashion and what we put on our bodies.
So, that's really what it is to me. It's about staying true to yourself and expressing that internal feeling you have, outwardly.
Maureen
Like, mic drop. I couldn't have said that better myself. Just from top to bottom. I think what I'm starting to view this podcast is almost for the style podcast for people who don't care about style. Of course, knowing that you and you and I both do, deeply. But almost this, this idea of, there's not really boundaries on what it means to be stylish, or at least I think we're moving in that direction as a as a culture. I think we're moving towards this place of style is self-expression and, and giving more people, space to, to dress how they want. And, I think this idea of, of tuning inward and bringing what's inside outside is, is really the best way to kind of, I guess, broaden the circle, of people who care about personal style. I mean, everybody's getting dressed every day, and so why can't more people be part of the style community?
Sogole
Yeah!
Maureen
I don't know if that's ever on your mind too.
Sogole
Oh, well, yeah! I think so, I mean, listen, there's a reason it's the word personal comes in front of the word style is so many times. Right? Because at the end of the day, what we are talking about is deeply personal and and deeply individualistic to every human being on this planet. You know, the way that I interpret a trend or, you know, a pair of pants or the way a look that I'm going for is going to be completely different than how you might interpret it or how somebody else would.
And and that's okay. And I think what's happened in this day and age, you know, of social media, which, by the way, is a is a wonderful thing. I think we're so lucky to live in an era where we have such access to incredible images and ideas and, and, and thoughts, you know, all around us, I think that's such a wonderful, environment to engage with and, and be a part of, but ultimately, I think the most important thing is that we have to we're all editors.
We have to edit our own lives in a way that makes sense for us. And so you're receiving information and imagery and concepts and inspiration all the live long day, right? You know, you're on your phone, you're walking down the street, you're in a museum, wherever you are. You're constantly being fed information. And it's how you process that information and translate it into your own life.
Sogole
That ultimately is what we're getting at when it comes to expressing yourself through personal style. So that's what I think I was trying to also get at in this in this post and in general is that, just because quiet luxury was a huge trend or just because you know, something is popular or you see a lot of people wearing something doesn't necessarily mean that you have to run and go do it, too.
Now, if it resonates with you and if it really speaks to you, that's one thing, because that's you having a authentic reaction to, you know, information that you are processing from the outside world, that's great. Like, that's that's what we want, right? When that happens, that's where the magic happens. But otherwise, when you're when you're doing something just because everyone else is or because it's something that's cool or it's a trend that you love, that you think is interesting, but you don't know how to translate it for your body. That's where things start to get a little bit clunky, right? Like that's where we might maybe lose the connection to who we really are and what we're trying to express. And it gets lost in the shuffle. So I always say, you know, absorb it, but take from it what serves you and leave the rest behind.
Maureen
I think it can be very difficult to, to ascertain whether or not we like something authentically versus just we've seen so much of it that it it's like burned into our brain. Can you share how you might discern that, whether or not a trend is for you versus just something for the world?
Sogole
Oh, I mean, this is like, such a great question. I love this so much. Yeah. I mean, it goes I go back to, the emotional side of it, like, where do you you have a physical or emotional or visceral reaction to something where it really like, like hits you like, and it's so hard to put into words because, you know, at the end of the day, feelings are hard to define sometimes.
But for me, it's when I when I see something: an item or a concept or the way somebody put something together, and I have this like innate feeling that will take over where I'm like, oh, wow, I like that. It gets that like immediate reaction, where it's beyond logic.
It's not me thinking about, oh, well, maybe like, this pair of pants would look great with this. That's all great. And those are good practices to undertake. But that's sort of, you know, step three four and five. I think step one is that initial gut reaction that you have to something. And so if you see a trend or you see an item, you know, I go back to of course, that, that Juju Viera shell necklace.
Maureen
I was so ready to talk about that. Yes.
Sogole
I mean, listen, that was like part of part of what drove that post. And I know I talked about it in that, in that post as well, and it's sort of become, you know, Substack lore at this point. But I do think that, when I first saw that necklace, because, at some point you have to see something for the first time, and then of course, you start to see it everywhere. Right? But I, I really do forget who I first saw it on. I'm sure it was, you know, Leandra Medine Cohen or somebody incredibly fashionable, but, I did see it somewhere first. And my first initial gut reaction was, oh, my God, I need that necklace. Like, it was something about the piece that really spoke to me. And, it just I had that initial emotional gut reaction to it.
And of course, you know, when you find out what it is and you go and you do your research and you're like, wow, that is that is, more than I was looking to spend on a necklace at this point in time. And so you bank it and you think about it and it kind of goes on your wish list or wherever it goes.
And then, of course, the thing that happens is, you know, you know, of course, you start seeing it everywhere, right? So then you start seeing it on for other chic women or influencers or whoever, and then it starts to bubble up into this like thing, this, this, this kind of entity that almost takes on its own life.
I've had so many people comment on that post like, “I really liked that necklace too. But now I see it everywhere. And now I'm like, am I turned off by it now? Because everyone has it and it's not unique anymore. Should I still get it?” Like, I don't know, I still like it, but like I maybe I have the ick a little bit now because it's everywhere. It's not as like unique. And and you know, I think my comment to that and in general about this is like, while I understand the sentiment and and it's not devoid of its own kind of reasoning and value, why like why are you wasting energy and effort worrying about whether or not something is too prevalent or not prevalent enough?
Like this goes back to what I'm saying is like that initial gut reaction of like, oh my God, I need that necklace. Then I knew that eventually I was probably going to have to give in and buy it, like it was just one of those inevitable things that in my mind, I was like, well, I don't know if I'm going to be able to walk away from this, but knowing the price of it, you know, again, you put it on ice, you see what happens.
And even though so many other chic women started wearing it…I have to be honest, it didn't make me want it more, but it also didn't make me want it less. Like it just kind of was like almost in a way, to be honest, validating the way I was feeling like, well, I mean, the are like, clearly I was on to something when I saw that and I had that reaction, like everyone else is having a similar reaction because a lot of other people are are wearing it.
And in the case of that necklace specifically, it's such a small brand that to be honest, I don't know how much like gifting they do. So I you have to believe, and actually, I think it was Grace Atwood that did comment on a post somewhere in Substack that she, she physically bought it with her own money, that she didn't get gifted it. So you have to believe if they're not gifting someone like her, they're probably not really gifting. And so that was also like kind of exciting that these women out there that we all admire and we're all in discourse with like, nope, they're out there spending their own money on things that they love too.
And I think, and, you know, I'm using this necklace as an example for the broader concept, which is ultimately, if you love something and you have that reaction to it, that's how you should know whether or not to participate in it and go for it or not. You know, of course, budget and other considerations not-withstanding. But but that gut reaction, the first reaction is, usually the right reaction is what I would say.
Maureen
Connecting some dots too, right. You are an inherently individual person. And so even if you were to buy the same item and looking at your post that includes this shell necklace, this necklace looks incredibly different on each one of these women that you're referencing because you know, their style is different, their appearance is different. And so it's almost like the only thing connecting these women is the necklace, but it feels really individual on each person because they're individuals. And so it almost doesn't matter at some point that they're wearing the same necklace, because what comes through is the necklace as part of their broader style. And it's not just this, the necklace in isolation.
Sogole
100 and thousand percent like you really hit the nail on the head. It's so true. And that's ultimately, again, going back to personal style, like, how are you translating, an item, you know, a popular item, a trend or whatever it is? And how are you translating that to make sense for you and your life and your style and just who you are? You know, all of those women pictured, I would argue they're all very chic, they're lovely, they're there, but they're also so different from each other to your point. So I think always remembering that ultimately it's the the spin that you're going to put on that item. That's what's going to make it feel personal and unique and special to you.
And how you wear it is going to be totally different. Chances are than how somebody else wears it. And even if you do wear it in technically the same way, you know, you have long hair, that person has short hair, it's going to look different. You know, there's all these elements that we all forget about, that are part of the personal style, you know, lexicon, if you will, that are, that all add up. They're all these little elements and they all add up to create that bigger picture at large. And so I think you make an excellent point.
Maureen
I just had kind of a silly thought too, which is we each have our own personal context for the item too. Right? So okay, let's say that I also decided to buy the shell necklace, which for the record, I think it's lovely, but it doesn't give me that kind of feeling. But let's say that I did buy it. You know, the people in my sphere of influence that I see daily, like my dad, for example…if I wore that necklace in front of my dad, he would be like, “oh, cool necklace.” And he would have absolutely no context for the fact that all these other people are wearing it. And he would just be like, “oh yeah, you got a cool necklace, love that for you.”
Like, you know. And so I think, do you remember Jemima Kirke, the actress, at one point she, she posted on TikTok or something like that. That was like, girls, I think you need to stop thinking about yourself so much. And I kind of feel like that comes up a little bit with this idea of like, oh, it's too oversaturated; I don't I don't want to look like everybody else. I don't want to get the thing. And it's like, it's probably not that complicated. Probably nobody would even know.
Sogole
Totally agree with you. Like I we all live in this like, Well, not all, but a lot of us, I should say. We we live in the bit of this fashion bubble, especially on Substack or, you know, on social media, depending on who you're, you know, following on Instagram or consuming or whatnot. So it does start to feel like, oh my God, like a little bit tunnel vision, right? Or Stockholm Syndrome is probably a better. This is probably a better analysis. But but yes, exactly. And I think that, just and I think I said something like this in the post as well, like maybe, maybe just like step away from your phone, step away from the content, like take yourself out of the environment for a moment or two and, and then, you know, not only is that going to help you kind of regain some perspective, but it will also just help you again, connect to like what you're liking, what you're loving, who you are and what you're interested in versus what.
Like, you know, 17 other women online are currently projecting out there. So I think like, you know, listen, the put down your phone is is is less practical than it probably, advice than it probably should be because I know how hard it is for so many of us who are either content creators and, or, you know, writers on Substack or, you know, just out there in the world.
But I think it was for me, it was more like, it was more metaphorical in that we need to take a minute and step away from what we are thinking as the saturation of it all and realize that, yeah, it's it's not that serious. Like, it's just it's a pretty necklace.
Maureen
So if we apply the idea of bringing awareness to that feeling that we get when we see [something like the necklace], the next step isn't obvious, you know? Yes, it could be that you buy that necklace. It could be that you don't do anything about it at all. When we feel oversaturated by Pinterest or something like that, it doesn't necessarily mean that we have to disconnect or turn off our phone. To your point, like we still want to know what's going on or it benefits us to know what's going on. But we could also acknowledge that we can take-in in this information, it doesn't mean that we have to act on it. We can just look at it. If we work on this practice of of awareness and sitting with that without always feeling like we need to, to act on it.
So that would be, that would be my, style intuition take on, on taking in inspiration. And actually, Kelly Williams and I did an entire episode on taking style inspiration and making it work for you. So if you are interested in and hearing that conversation, that's up on the podcast now, but I definitely agree with you. Sometimes you do simply need to turn off the phone and walk away. So it's kind of a ‘yes, and’ to me.
Sogole
Yep. Agreed, agreed. And I think I said that something along those lines in my post like you walk into a museum you fall in love with, not with a Monet. Are you now going to try to take that Monet off the wall and walk out?
Maureen
That’s such a good example.
Sogole
You might buy a poster version of it in the gift shop, but and that's, you know, that goes to like a whole different conversation, which is inspired by a dupe or whatever. But but I do think that, sometimes it's okay to just soak it in, admire it, appreciate it for what it is, but just know that, you know, it's not for me right now or like, I'm just I love it, but I'm not going to engage with it right now and that's okay. Like that's great. That's like to have that level of awareness is, is ultimately what we're all going for.
Maureen
Talking about your personal style a little bit more, how do you decide what to buy or wear? How do you decide what not to buy or where?
Sogole
I mean, what a question. How much time do you have?
Gosh, I mean, well, welcome to the inner workings of my mind, which I becomes so much of my Substack column, but it's such a great question. I think that when I was younger and still figuring things out, in all aspects of my lives, not just with personal style, I think it was so much of it was driven by the outside world and what was going on around me.
And you know what? Designers were trending and what was hot and what was everyone wearing and what which is still happening. And out there in the world. But I do think the older I've gotten, I've come to terms with what works for me, what doesn't work for me. I have a very keen understanding of my body, of what I'm comfortable in, what I'm not comfortable in, what works.
You know, esthetically, for me, versus what doesn't. And so ultimately I let that, you know, years and years of trial and error and, you know, amassing that knowledge and experience over time. That's ultimately what what will guide me. Right? You know, I think, that and the fact that I was around first time the trend came around.
You're like, oh my God, I am old. That's, you know, that's starting to happen more and more like, don't even get me started on the proliferation of these Juicy Couture sweatpants, coming back into style with, like, Gen Z and all over TikTok, which I can't even get into because that's just. Wow. But, but yeah, I think I think the experience, I think a deep understanding of your sense of self, and, and also your lifestyle, I've seen so many read so many amazing, pieces of content and posts on Substack from many different authors about shop for the life you have, dress for the life you actually live. So many of us, sometimes when we shop, we are shopping for this version of ourselves that exists in our brains and in our brains alone. Or maybe she comes out once or twice a year, but she's not who we are every single day, right? And so while that aspiration is lovely and we should not ignore it or discard it completely. That's aspiration. That's not reality of who we are day in and day out. Like my reality is, I'm a working mom. I do school drop offs, I do pickups, I go to soccer practice, I go to the office. I, you know, go out on date night with my husband. I go out with friends on the weekend. That's my life.
Like I am not going to galas. I am not, not maybe once a year, to be honest. But like, I'm not going to galas. I'm not going to, gallery openings, every weekend. I'm not going to big fashion parties, every night. Like, that was my former life when I lived in New York. I did all of that. But now that's not my life anymore. And that's okay. But I think knowing that as much as I am such a quote unquote fashion girl at heart and have worked in the industry for many, many years and lived in New York and did all of that, I think I've come to terms with that as much as I want those crazy shoes or that incredible dress, that I would have worn a ton in my former life, it's just not practical anymore for my life now. So I think having that understanding and awareness, of your own self and your lifestyle, that's ultimately what drives those decision making on a daily basis.
Maureen
Hearing you say that almost makes me think back to that necklace, though, and how that necklace could be like a symbol of being a fashion person. It's a little bit glam. It's kind of eclectic. It's looks very handmade. It brings that element of whimsy and cool and in the know, but also brings this like effortlessness that all you have to do is put it on with a pair of jeans if you want to, and then it elevates it and it gives you this kind of experience or this feeling of maybe being back in that kind of more glamorous situation. But it still works for the real life that a lot of people have. I don't know if that resonates.
Sogole
Oh yeah. Hundred percent, I mean, yes, like that's exactly. That's a big part of I mean, listen, I loved it because it was beautiful. I think it's a beautiful it's like a almost like a work of art. Right. That you're looking at in some ways. But yes, 100%. And that's why we have to find out ways to, to that's where the personal style comes in.
Like, you know, listen my, my deep down, you know, who I am is, of course it evolves and grows over time, especially as your life changes. But you know who you are. And from a values perspective and personality and character like that doesn't change that much over time. Like, it might shift a little bit here and there, or it might evolve and mature. But you know, our values, generally speaking, aren't going from, you know, a to Z over the course of our life, like so, I think, you know, knowing that and knowing what I've always been attracted to in my life, and knowing that I can't necessarily live that life anymore in terms of getting dressed to the nines and going out, because that's just not my life anymore.
So how do I bring that touch of that who I am inside me? How do I bring that to my day to day? Right. And how do I, like, translate that in a way that feels good to me and realistic for my life? And so, yes, like that necklace is a great I don't want to make this entire podcast about like but again, we're using I think the necklace is a metaphor, right?
Maureen
Exactly.
Sogole
It could be anything. It could be a handbag, it could be a pair of shoes, it could be a jacket, it could be anything. And ultimately what it comes down to is like, how are you using that item to communicate a sense of yourself to the outside world? And also, we all care about what people think about us, but yes, the outside world. But more importantly, how is it making you feel inside? Like does it make you feel confident and cool and like in the know, like glamorous, whatever those feelings are like, is it making you feel that way? Because if it is, and that's a feeling you really enjoy and you like, then that's amazing. And who cares what anybody else thinks, right?
So I think that's ultimately, to your point, is finding ways to translate trends or moments or things that are happening around us in a way that makes sense for us in our lives. And that's ultimately, you know, how we should be shopping to like, I think that we've lost our way collectively when it comes to shopping because of what's happened in social media and the way that shopping has kind of evolved in the past few years. And I think it sounds like, you know, with the amount of no buy and low buy and everything I've been reading about, which is amazing. But I do love that. It's almost like a we're having a bit of a reckoning where we're all going to like this overconsumption that everybody's been engaging and or a lot of people rather, I should say, have been engaging in for years and years.
Like, I think we're seeing that it's not the way to go, not just for the the waste and the environmental impacts and the sustainability aspect of it all, but also because ultimately it just clouds your judgment and and it makes you feel like a less true version of yourself. So I think it's all kind of coming to a head in that way.
Maureen
Yeah, absolutely. And just a quick aside on on the idea of overconsumption, I always like to kind of caveat that with overconsumption by design, right? A lot of corporations and companies really want us to overspend. And so I think when individuals are doing that, it's not because the individual necessarily is like trying to to be wasteful or anything like that. I'm trying to take off some of the personal responsibility, but at the same time, we have the personal ability to kind of choose to go against that overconsumption. And I think to your point, there are a lot of people on Substack and other outlets that are really turning against that tide in a really cool way.
Sogole
Oh, I yeah, I love that. And again, that goes back to I agree with you. Like, listen, like I said earlier, we are fed a million images and messages and ads everything all day long. Right. So ultimately, you know, you're not going to buy everything that you see you just can't like.
Maureen
Yeah exactly.
Sogole
Yeah. You can't afford it, that's just ridiculous. But I think it's about using that a filter for your, you know, your personal style and, and other, you know, filters of your life to make those decisions and, and be responsible to yourself and your, you know, your bank account and your closet and your family and the environment and everybody around you and how you do consume and and being mindful of that.
You know, it's a huge reason why I have over the past, I don't know, year and a half maybe, maybe more. But solidly year and a half really gone deep on, on secondhand and resale like it's, it's been a big, big, area focus for me, not just because I think it adds so much more personality. Because of the fact that you're finding something unique that not a million people maybe own. But also because of just, you know, the, the, the environmental impacts. Also, generally speaking, sometimes secondhand is more affordable, there's so many benefits to, going down that path. That, that I think it's why it's also kind of grown in popularity thrifting, all of that. I think it's, it's great to see, that sort of take off too.
Maureen
Going back a little bit. You were talking about how you've, over time, honed and, and really paid attention to your preferences and what does and doesn't feel good on your body. And I would say this is something I've also done a very concerted effort to do. I'm a little bit at this point right now where I feel like I've discerned so much that I'm starting to become a little closed off to trying new things. I'm working on a really quick post about trying out some things that I never tried before, but I'm curious if you have any advice or suggestions for how to balance, knowing what you like without being closed off to the possibility that you might like something else that you just haven't considered.
Sogole
That is that's so, so interesting. Like what? What a great topic. I can't wait to read that post.
I mean, I don't know that there's a hard and fast like, you know, rule or, you know, set of guidelines to follow. I think going back to intuition is a big part of it. Right. So I think sometimes we get very methodical about fashion, specifically. And, and it can apply to other areas of life too. But obviously I see it more so in fashion where, you know, there's the capsule wardrobe and there is the, you know, only by five things a year or things become almost formulaic, right? Or like it starts to feel prescriptive to a degree.
And I think even though metrics and having an understanding of the data or the kind of more logical side of fashion as it pertains to our lives is helpful, right? Because it's it's helpful to know, like, I generally really like pants. Like, I don't really wear a lot of skirts. Okay. That's like good information for you to know as, like a consumer and as a person, like your personal style. But just because you're a pants girl doesn't mean that you can't be open to the idea of one day, you know, maybe there's a skirt that you come across and you're like, oh my God, like, what a skirt? And then, you know, you've backed yourself into a corner of like, well, no, like I'm not a skirt. Go out and wear skirts. I never and I hear this a lot like, well, I don't wear dresses or I don't do it, I don't do x, y, z. And people have painted themselves into this corner of like, well, this is my style and this is the things I wear, and these are things I don't wear. And it's, and it's very, like it becomes very, black and white, and it's, it's not black and white, it's we have to be open to those shades of gray in between, and we have to be open to inspiration and, and taking that inspiration and again, to the earlier point, I think I saw somebody comment, I'm going back to the necklace because it's a good example, but like, “oh, I love this so much. But like, I don't wear necklaces,” For me and okay, like fair enough. I'm not here to, like, try to convince you to all of a sudden to become a necklace person. But it's like, why? Why have you made that determination that you just don't wear necklaces?
And as a result, you're not going to engage in this in this piece. Now, I'm not saying go against your instinct. If that's your instinct and you're not that into it, great. Like that's the whole point of intuition. But if you're really into something, but you're almost talking yourself out of it because it's quote unquote, I don't wear necklaces or like, I don't wear skirts.
Like now you're starting to do yourself a disservice, and now you are limiting the scope of where your personal style and where your kind of, you know, evolution of, you know, how you might express yourself, the directions and the possibilities that it could go. And you're you're kind of cutting it off at the knees before it even gets the chance to kind of move in a certain in a certain way.
And I think that's when we have to really take a minute and be like, okay, is this really something that I want to stick to, or would I be open to trying a necklace or a skirt? And maybe I could do something different and maybe that's okay. And maybe that's like a new way of thinking about how I get dressed.
And I think that's when you start to see new ideas and possibilities take shape. Not only in your own closet, but also in, just, again, how you kind of, you know, put yourself out there.
Maureen
I absolutely love that answer. And I have just I have a big smile on my face just thinking about it because it's almost full circle. It's like you can't just bring the awareness once, right? You bring the awareness to getting dressed as often and as frequently as possible. Right? You bring it to when you look at that picture and you notice that feeling, but then you also can notice when those feelings change over time and maybe something that you used to love you, you feel differently about in the future.
I would try to bring a non-judgmental kind of lens to that and just say, oh, it's okay. I've changed. And if I think back to the person that I was when I was first drawn to that, these things were happening in my life and now these other things are happening in my life. There's been a lot of time in between, and just being open to the idea that something that we once knew about ourselves can change.
And it doesn't mean that when we had that feeling, it's not legitimate. It just means that at this moment in time, maybe our relationship to that thing has changed. And that's okay. And like a couple of years ago, I stopped wearing the color red because, you know, I really wanted to bring more peace and, ease to getting dressed. And I definitely needed that at the time. And now I'm kind of coming back around to this idea of bringing in, like, lime green or kind of a rusty orange color into my outfits because I feel like something is missing or I just bring some element of joy. And the idea of bringing that in now doesn't negate the fact that at one point, that color wasn't like bright color wasn't serving me. But it's more like, okay, I needed that for the time, and now I'm ready for something different again, and I'm going to try it. And it's going to be slightly different than that thing I had tried before, and we'll just see how it goes.
Sogole
Yes. Like a thousand times yes. Because style is an evolution. It's all in it. Like our lives are in evolution, right? Like we're not the same person today per se. Like, or we don't have the same life, at least that we probably had ten years ago or 15 years ago. I mean, everything changes and evolves and grows, and so why wouldn't you know your style, be part of that?
Like, you know, I think that as long as it's happening in concert with who you are and the life you live and it's feeling comfortable and, and, true to you, then how about it? Like, have some fun with it. You know, I always say in almost every post I do, fashion should be fun. It's fashion, I like it. It's not a science. It's like, yes, we've we've we've turned it in. So many of us have turned it into this thing where we're logging outfits and we're like putting things into apps and we're doing it, and that's amazing. Don't get me wrong, no shade on people who do that. Like I'm jealous. I wish I had the discipline to do something. And that's great. But at the end of the day, it's emotional. It's sometimes not rational. It is, very personal. It's deep, it's complex. It's connected to so many parts of our psyche. But at the end of the day, if it's not bringing us joy, then. Then what's it doing?
I mean, it's clothing as it's covering our bodies. Sure. What's important, it's functional, but, But this is so much more than that.
Maureen
I completely agree. It's to me that it's the inner and the outer together and making those kind of sync up. Like, I got a nose piercing last year and I, I couldn't, I couldn't say more than this other than, like, I looked at myself in the mirror after I got it and I just thought, that's how I feel inside. And now I look like that outside. And just just like deep feeling of, like whole body joy with people that are looking at me, seeing me a little bit closer to how I view myself. So I just hope everybody gets a moment like that because it was really so awesome.
Sogole
Oh, I love for you. Like, I love, I love when that moment happens where whatever the outward thing is, is matching the the inner thing that's like, that's that, that's your goal.
Maureen
Totally, totally. So we're recording this at the start of 2025. Do you have any other style or personal goals you're excited to work towards this year? Obviously we've talked about intuitive style specifically. Do you have any in addition to that?
Sogole
Yeah. So honestly, for me, I would say, yes, leading with intuition, which ultimately is, is part and parcel with my other kind of, goal for the year, which is to, to kind of embrace joy in getting in, getting dressed and in fashion and kind of also what we were just talking about was having fun.
I am in an interesting place now in my style journey, if you will, because my youngest, child is now four, which, believe it or not, and I feel like any other moms who are listening will probably agree with me that, you know, people think postpartum is like a year after you had a baby. I would beg to differ. Everybody is different. And but the postpartum period for everybody, in my opinion, is different. And actually there's been studies that have been done. Yeah, I'm sure we could find that, when I, when I read not too long ago that said that the postpartum period can last up to seven years, which is.
Yeah, you know, crazy. Fortunately. Like, I'm not surprised to hear that, to be honest. And so my youngest is four now, and which means I have a tiny bit of distance from, you know, being a quote unquote new mom yet again, and going through, like, the thick of it and and the reason I bring that up is because, you know, so much of my style, was always tied to, you know, my body and my body composition and the way I kind of looked and felt and and, you know, my size.
If you will. Especially, you know, going through two pregnancies in very quick succession. It really does a number not only on your, on your physical body because it's a, you know, pregnancy is a very toxic, taxing thing. But on your, you know, psyche, your, your mentality like everything. Right. And so I think for me, where I'm at now is like, I have a bit of distance from all of those very, you know, turbulence kind of up and down and gaining weight and losing weight and, you know, very kind of, you know, roller coaster, if you will, of an experience of, of those first few years of motherhood.
And I have that distance now and I think for me, the goal as I head into 2025 is to is to really now I'm finally comfortable in my own skin again, and I think now I can focus inwards on what is, you know, what's bringing me joy, what's making me happy, what is a good reflection of my personal style externally.
And just like dialing into that more because, you know, for the past, God, I, you know, up until very recently, and my oldest is, you know, six. So, you know, God, I've been I've been I was pregnant seven years ago. Now seven years, you could argue, I've been in a, in this, like, constant state of flux, like, because your body image and how you, you feel in your body, anybody who tells you that doesn't affect your relationship with fashion, I'm sorry.
They're like, yeah, it does. It does affect your relationship with fashion. Now some people it affects positively, others negatively. I'm not here to, you know, render judgment on everybody has their own feeling about that. But the way you feel in your own skin is ultimately your reflection also of your relationship with clothes. And so for me, I'm so excited to again, finally feel comfortable enough in my own skin where I can really hone in and start to own my style from top to bottom without feeling like I need to make concessions for pregnancy, or early motherhood or breastfeeding, or all these other things that tend to happen when women become mothers. So that's kind of my big thing.
Maureen
I mean, incredible. And I love to hear that you you're starting a new chapter and are able to kind of access this part of yourself that maybe has felt somewhat disconnected, for a while. So I love to hear that you're on kind of, the upward climb there.
Sogole
Yes. We've come out of the postpartum shroud, if you will. And, you know, I will say, yeah, I think the past, the past six months especially, I've really felt it like it's really started to hit home. And I felt much, much better about, about, you know, my style, my body, everything. Like things are starting to feel a little bit easier.
Not that it's ever easy with two kids. I know it'll be a little bit easier in some respects. We've sort of settled into that, so. And that's exciting for me to be able to finally have that ownership of my body, my style, all that. I'm kind of regained that. And I'm excited to kind of explore what that means this year, onward.
Maureen
Incredible. And just to wrap us up, any advice that you'd give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?
Sogole
Just just, you know, listen to your heart, as cheesy as that is so cheesy, I know. My goodness. Really listen to yourself.
And and you are your own best, source. And and place of understanding what will work, what feels good, what feels wrong. You know, you ultimately, it's you that's getting dressed every morning. It's not the twelve influencers that are popping up on your, Instagram feed.
It's you. And so, yes, take that inspiration. You know, like, of course, absorb what you feel around the world around you. But ultimately, listen to yourself, stay true to who you are. Have fun every now and then. Experiment. We don't want to feel too, restrained. We don't want to restrict ourselves so much to. To the earlier point I was making.
Have a little bit of fun every now and then wear something that maybe she makes you feel a little not uncomfortable, but just, you know, stretches you a little bit like hot, like, I don't know, like, I don't know if I'm gonna like this, but I'm going to try something like this, and and you might hate it. And by the way, that's great. You hated it. You tried it. It's information gleaned. You now know that this thing was not for me. But, you know, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Right? Like, have fun. Experiment here and there. But always in a way that feels authentic to who you are. And to who you want to be.
Maureen
Incredible. I love it, I totally agree. Thank you, for so much fun. It's been so much fun.
Sogole
I could literally talk to you like the rest of the day.
Maureen
I think we have to do a reprise episode sometime! Where can listeners find you?
Sogole
Well, my number one place I'm going to direct you to is, of course, Substack. It's a community I'm so passionate about. I have met so many incredible, people writers, thinkers, stylists, everybody out there, including you, Maureen Welton , on this, on this platform. So I cannot sing its praises enough. So, on my Substack is called Another Fashion Newsletter, which is a little tongue in cheek, but that's, you know, that's that's me.
So please find me on there. And you can also always, you know, find me on Instagram. I'm not as active on there, but I definitely, you know, post here and there. And that's just at Sogole Kane. [Editor note: Sogole is also now on Instagram as Another Fashion Newsletter.] But yeah, definitely check it out. Subscribe to Maureen if you haven't. She's incredible. Love your content. You really you bring so many great ideas to the table. And I'm so honored to have been featured here today. So thank you again.
Maureen
Thank you. I really appreciate it. I feel like our work is always in conversation. So that's the best.
Sogole
The dream, the dream.
Outro
What a delight having Sogole Kane join me today. I had such a great time creating this episode and hearing more from her. All of her sage wisdom about how to get dressed and make sure it's still fun. If you enjoyed this episode, consider liking, sharing, and subscribing to make sure that you don't miss any future episodes.
Episodes drop every Friday.
Thank you. See you next week.
Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by Maureen Welton.
Awesome. Well, I have really enjoyed following along. So speaking of which, you really caught my eye with your seventy-five hard style challenge. Can you share a little bit more about what that challenge is?
Yeah! This challenge was started by Mandy Lee. I believe her handle on everything like IG, TikTok, and Substack is Old Loser in Brooklyn. Which is a great name. She started the challenge in 2024 as kind of like a New Year's resolution type thing on social media. And it's an iteration on that, like, seventy-five hard health challenge, which I actually know basically nothing about, but I know that's when you're like very disciplined for seventy-five days. So she just kind of applied it to style. The rules are mostly like get dressed for seventy-five days, document your looks, try not to buy anything new. And, and really understand why you're doing this challenge, like set your goals and intentions. So it could be because you want to save money or maybe you want to slow down what you're bringing into your business. Closet or you just want to get to know your style better.
One of the rules I haven't been so great about is she wants you to really rely on your own kind of inspiration. So don't go on Pinterest or TikTok and just copy someone's look. And then another rule is to organize and clean out your closet before you start the challenge. And I believe also after, so you can kind of see like what you got rid of to start and what you ended with.
What about this challenge attracted to you at this moment? Why did it seem like a good fit?
I started getting into getting dressed, which, which sounds so crazy, but I've been working from home since 2019. So I very much fell into a rut, but I've been trying to get dressed for like two years really consistently. And I saw this challenge last year. And it just didn't feel like the right time for me. I just moved in 2025 and I think I was like, okay, you know, I'd already cleaned out my closet. I purged a lot. I'm living in New York now, which feels like you kind of have to up your style game, so I was ready to take it on starting this January.
One thing in particular about your series on this challenge is that you have a particular rating system for how you think about the outfits. Can you tell us a little bit more about your rating system and how you landed on it?
Yeah, that was something I just made up because my intention with this challenge besides like getting out of my PJs every day was to really learn more about my personal style. So I rate things on a scale of one to five when I wear them. One is like, this really doesn't feel like me. And five is like this, this does feel like me. The scale is really just based on like my intuition, which I know you speak about a lot in your Substack and just really leaning into authenticity. So it could be like how comfortable I feel in this and how much this may be leaned into my style words. It's just been a really helpful way to look back on an outfit and, and get a sense of how I felt when I wore it that day.
It's so fun and so unique to see someone talking about rating your personal style with how it feels and how you experience being in the outfit. Just seeing that as such a focus of of you, how you decide success of your wardrobe, it really resonated with me because so much of the time I think it's popular or accepted to dress for other people and how you're going to be perceived. And just seeing your, your me writing felt really innovative and, and also exciting. And I think really it shows where we're moving as a personal style culture towards caring a little bit more about how we experience our own clothing rather than just letting everything be about how we're perceived.
Thank you. That's exactly what I was going for. And I guess I didn't even think of that, but it is a lot about how I feel versus how other people perceive me.
One outfit of yours that really caught my eye, was that some of your, you know, I think in general you would say, right, that your style is on the casual side. And I noticed that there were a couple kind of more lounge outfits that you rated quite highly. There's a lot of pressure that lounge clothing isn't stylish or doesn't involve effort or doesn't convey effort and. I was just curious, can you share a little bit more about your experience with lounge and how and why that would be something that you rate really high?
It's something I'm kind of working through because I'm not a dressy person. I tend to dress very casual. Like one of my style words is like undone. So if something feels too polished, it doesn't feel like me. Very often if I'm wearing something that feels really comfortable and like layered and it's in a color palette, I like, I'm going to give it a high rating and that tends to be my athleisure outfits. Something I am trying to sift through is. Does this feel like a me outfit because I had fallen into such a habit of always wearing this type of clothing or does it really feel like the type of person I am authentically and want to dress as? So I'm kind of working through that. Some outfits that are really casual might get like a five out of five and some might get like a two out of five because I put no effort in and I just kind of threw on sweatpants.
That goes back to the idea of the challenge and your effort overall to to get dressed. Would you share what getting dressed means to you? Like, what is not getting dressed? What is just putting on clothes?
Yeah, it's like a very basic definition. It's getting out of my pajamas because... Literally, that's it. I have had a job working from home for so long that I could like roll over and just in my pajamas start working. So fully in the morning, getting out of bed, putting on a complete new outfit. The days when I basically threw on something that's like outside pajamas. I'm like, okay, you didn't really do the thing today. I've had a few days in this challenge where I've noticed that, but some days I'm like, okay, I'm going to wear these leggings. And I'm going to wear high socks with them and I'm going to layer a sweatshirt with a turtleneck and I'm going to put on jewelry. So, I intuitively know when I'm making an effort and when I'm not and how to differentiate those two.
Would you say, now I'm putting my, my point of view into this, but like to me getting dressed would be putting on something that I'd be comfortable wearing outside of the house. Do you think, is that any way that you're defining it?
Yeah, absolutely. I think I think that's actually a perfect definition. I think there was a time in my life where I probably could have worn PJs outside of the house, but now I want to always feel like I put a little effort in.
Sure, sure. And, and societal, you know, during COVID it was particularly, you know, different as for what was okay to wear outside. We were wearing a mask anyway.
Yes.
So this is kind of a personal anecdote, but I am curious what you think about this. Going back to the idea of wearing stuff at home that you would be comfortable wearing out of the house putting in that effort. A couple years ago, I had more disposable income and I did a one-on-one personal styling session with Allison Bornstein, the stylist.
That's cool.
It was very cool. And if I could go back, I think the biggest thing that I regretted was I had us focus our conversation on the clothing that I wore only out of the house and I was like anything that I work from home and we don't need to talk about because that stuff is fine. And now if I could play that back I would be like how can I merge the two, how can I make sure that the clothes that I'm wearing at home are also things that I could wear outside of the house, because I also work from home I should have said that. And I have since 2020. Does that idea resonate with you as far as like merging kind of what you would work from home in versus what you're wearing outside of the house or do you view that as a separate?
No, that's so smart, and also that's so cool. I need to hear more about that because I would love to hear what she has to say about my wardrobe. But I realized probably two years ago, like working from home was probably going to be my reality for the foreseeable future. And I love it for a lot of reasons, but. In terms of getting up and getting dressed, it, it wasn't the most productive for me. So did I want to spend the rest of my life building a wardrobe that worked like maybe two days on the weekend, or did I want to feel good every day? So that just meant having to blend the two. So even now when I'm planning outfits for this challenge, I try to give myself like two days a week where I build like a cuter and doing quotes like sweat set. So I don't get so overwhelmed being in jeans every day when, when that's still a transition for me. I think there is a way to blend the two. I think previously there was kind of like the work wardrobe versus the weekend wardrobe. And now I think it's the same.
Let's talk a little bit about your professional experience working as a shopping writer and an editor in the fashion world. I'm curious if you could share any of the ways that professional experience has shaped your personal aesthetic.
In my twenties, I worked for a lot of fashion magazines digitally. So like Who, What, Where and InStyle and People and Glamor and it, it was amazing. But I actually don't think it helped my personal style.
I found myself often comparing to other women I worked with who are maybe more stylish or trying to like emulate their style. You also have access to a ton of brands and a ton of clothes, which can get really confusing. I was trend forecasting. So, you know, you can get kind of wrapped up in like, I should be wearing this. This is what everyone's going to be wearing. One perk of the job that I personally don't miss, but I know a lot of people love was you get a lot of gifts, which is, which is so amazing and so nice, but. In the same way you can't shop your way to personal style, you also can't like build a wardrobe off of a bunch of gifted PR pieces. So I actually think I almost had too much access and I was confusing myself.
I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about, you know, the idea of comparing to people who you considered more stylish. What does that mean to you?
At the time, it meant the women wearing certain designers to be totally transparent. It meant the women who wore heels to work every day and were really polished. And it took me a while to come to terms with the fact that that doesn't feel like me, like being too polished feels like a facade. Or sometimes I would even try to copy someone's style because they would just, they would just know who they were so much. I wanted it so desperately.
So maybe they'd be like, oh, I have, they'd wear these really cool rings that were like heirloom jewelry. And I'd want to go buy like the fast fashion version of that one. What made that cool was it was like part of their family history. So I had to just really learn how to differentiate between like admiring what is cool and what works for someone else and recognizing what wouldn't work for me.
Is there anything that you can think of that helped you kind of loosen your grip on that idea of wanting to emulate other people's style? Because I certainly know I've been there and still get there often myself.
Yeah. I think it helped having gone through it and doing it and looking back and being like, oh, I spent five years feeling like kind of uncomfortable. That didn't really work for me. And I'm a big list maker. So I actually have a list on my phone. That's like, do not buy, like, do not buy heels. You are not wearing heels. Like do not buy those sunglasses that look cool on that girl. You won't wear them. I think. Hey Mrs. Solomon on Style is a really good job of explaining this, but you can admire something and not own it. So I've gotten better about like, looking at someone else's style and recognizing that I love it and that it wouldn't work for me and I can just appreciate their creativity.
Let's talk a little bit then about what your personal style is. How did you decide what to buy and what, what works for you aside from, you know, not buying heels, for example, what are the things that you do gravitate towards?
I think Allison Bornstein style words really helped. And I know everyone kind of leans on those, but Heather, I can't, I can't think of her last name, but her handle is pig mommy, which like I'll, I'll never forget. Cause it's so good. She, when I noticed her TikTok a few years ago, she would talk about getting dressed just every day, just get dressed and document your outfits on pin, like a secret Pinterest board. And I started doing that and then I could look back and notice patterns. So that's when I could see like, oh, I really like when things look kind of undone. And for me, that can mean layered or oversized, just, just not super fitted and polished. Or I found the aspirational word was really helpful for me to lean into like a hobby or something I love. I horseback ride. I'm like a true horse girly. So I love. Like Western style. So I always like to incorporate that as my aspirational like I feel really empowered when I'm riding these horses and like a rodeo setting I think it's really cool. So I like that to reflect in my style. And one of my other words, which is so hard to describe is cool. And that forces me to literally be like, what do you think is cool? Like, I think it's really cool when my mom wears a sweater that she knit herself. I think that's so cool. So like, how can I. Have things that feel special and cool to me in my outfits.
I love that. And just for anyone who's not familiar with Allison Bornstein’s three words. So They're meant to be three words that encapsulate your personal style. One is your realistic word, something that you actively like when you look at your. Your regulars, as she calls them, the things that you're putting on day after day, they're not necessarily your favorite things, but they're realistic things you're wearing. That is your realistic word. The second word is your aspirational word, which is like when you look on your Pinterest, what are the themes that you might see that you're pinning from other people wearing? And then your third word would be Could be a feeling, how you want to feel in your clothing. You know, for example, would be like warm, you know, approachable, comfortable, things like that.
Can we talk then, hearing about your horse girl makes me think of, you know, Texas and I believe that's where you previously lived and you recently moved. So could you share with us like how you're thinking about your style changing with your new environment?
Yeah, that's actually something I am really exploring in my seventy-five hard style challenge. I noticed my environment, like even in New York, Brooklyn versus Manhattan really informs me. How ‘me’ an outfit feels. I could feel very comfortable dressed down somewhere and then I might go somewhere in Manhattan and be like, oh my gosh, I really wish I had dressed up a bit more. So I think Austin, because I already loved that kind of Western Americana look like worked perfectly for me.
I didn't really have to feel like I was wearing a costume cause I actually dress like that. I'm trying to remember that in New York, like I don't need to dress like how the New York girls dress if that doesn't feel like me, but it is hard to not be like influenced by the place you're at.
And, and also, you know, when you think about the climate too, right? Yeah. And, and Brooklyn probably have very little climate in common.
Totally.
I know too that you recently cut your hair shorter. Which can be kind of fun to mark a big move or life change with a haircut. How are you feeling with your shorter hair?
I love it. I change my hair up frequently. I am not very precious with my hair. I'll just kind of do whatever with it. I think living in Austin, the climate is very humid. So styling my hair every day didn't make sense. So I just kind of left it long and with my natural kind of wavy texture. And moving to New York, I was like, oh, I can have fun and cut it short and blow it out. So it's been fun to kind of lean into that.
And going back to kind of the idea of being comfortable in your clothes in Brooklyn, uh, for example, and then being uncomfortable in Manhattan in the same outfit, uh, I know this is something I've seen a couple people talk about here on Substack. I don't remember her name off the top of my head, but I'll include it in the show notes. This idea of like dressing authentically but then when it when it hits the real world it can feel so wrong and I was just curious if you have any Any ways to kind of deal with that pain or that discomfort with being your authentic self and then Feeling wrong about it. I mean, is that even something?Am I even describing this in the right way?
No, you totally are. I think I'm trying to think of my style more as a spectrum. So like. On one end, maybe there's my sweats and on the other end, it's like, what would I wear to a wedding? Like, I'm not always super casual. So clearly I have a way I feel comfortable when I get dressed up and I think it's kind of just like How you like when you go to work, you don't wear sweatpants, but you might not feel inauthentic in your work clothes that are a bit more uniformed. I'm trying to find a balance when I'm certain places and I recognize that the environment is, is a bit flashier or a bit dressier. Like, how can I still feel like me, but take it up a notch? So when I'm in Brooklyn, like I'm wearing a baseball cap and like a leather bomber and baggy pants and sneakers. And sometimes when I go into Manhattan, like instead of sneakers, I'm not wearing a heel, but maybe I'll wear like slides or like mules and that feels like I, it still feels like me, but it leans more in the environment. So I'm not self-conscious necessarily the whole time I'm there. Cause you don't, I think you can stand out and if you enjoy the standout great, but I would rather just like kind of feel like myself blend in and get what I need to get done in that area. So I guess I'm just trying to find ways to tweak my outfits so they lean a little bit more into that the occasion I'm dressing for.
That's such a great example. I mean, I personally think footwear is just such a great way to change the entire vibe of an outfit, especially dress it up or down.
Can we talk a little bit about how you feel in your clothing and maybe how you feel like you talk about what it means to you can tell when you're dressing authentically you can tell when you're dressing intuitively. Are there any words that you would use to describe the feeling in your body? Like, you know, do you feel maybe more relaxed? Do you feel that you're, you're short or more confident or your shoulders back or your. Uh, you know, pulling something down. Are there any kind of words that you would use to describe an outfit that feels right?
Ooh, that's such a good question. I think I'm going to contradict myself now because I said the whole thing wasn't about being perceived, but I am excited to go out in that outfit and like show it off. Like I'm proud of my creation. I'm like, let's get out. Let's go get a coffee. I feel cute. And it's not so much others are going to think I'm cute, but I'm like, look what I did. So I think that's the feeling I feel the most. Definitely leans into confidence. But yeah, I don't know if it's like a feeling in my body as much as just a knowing that I'm proud of what I put together.
I want to clarify, too, the idea of intuitive style or dressing authentically to me Includes the social aspect of getting dressed and we are social creatures and social beings and I think it would be kind of a fool's errand to pretend that we don't care what people think.
Totally.
For me, intuitive style means being aware of when we're dressing for other people in a way that doesn't feel comfortable. And also being aware of when we're dressing for other people in a way that does feel comfortable without judgment either way. Totally. I don't think those are right or wrong. It's more to me about paying attention.
Yeah, no, that's so smart. And like, this is a weird example, but I went to my nephew's birthday party this weekend and I wore an outfit I wear all the time in New York, like once a week. And it was like my loafers and jeans and a sweatshirt and I got to this birthday party and we had to take our shoes off and I felt so silly with like My Gucci loafers on the floor. Like I just felt ridiculous. So I think also like it does matter where you are. You want to feel good and focus on like my nephew's birthday party, not like why did I wear these silly shoes to this event? So I think you're so right. It all matters.
And especially when we think about safety too, right? There can be aspects of dressing, especially if you're a less protected identity, like if you're queer or non-binary or trans or even just a female person. If we think of that sex in the city where Carrie gets held at gunpoint for her fancy shoes, you know, it's like she was not safe because of her outfit, in that moment. Knowing, yes, of course, she's a fictional character, but I think we can relate to the idea of like, there are genuine consequences to getting dressed in a way that feels authentic. So it's, it's not like. I don't think it's realistic or even aspirational to get dressed without considering uh, the social environment that we're in.
No, that's such a good point, like, context especially. Your example, you know, if someone is queer or transgender and they decide to wear a skirt to an environment that doesn't feel safe, but that feels authentic to them, like there's so many instances where people still can't show up authentically. So it's just something to consider.
And I would say this is a very socially aware podcast.We're never going to be recommending that someone wear something that's unsafe.
Love it.
Let's talk a little bit about how your style has evolved over the years. Have you gone through any memorable phases?
I feel like high school was rough. I like don't want to age myself, but for some reason Jersey Shore just had a really big impact on me, unfortunately. I dyed my hair black. I went tanning. I wore like leopard print. My style now that's just, there's nothing about that that leans me. I think I very much looked to other people to inform my style like I kind of spoke to. So, like, if Jersey Shore was the show I was watching, it was that. If it was The Hills, I'm wearing, like, fake pearls like Lauren Conrad. I just... Didn't consider what I liked. It was just like I pulled from other people. I'm happy I experimented because now I can look back and be like, oh, I would not do that again. I think I was just like figuring out who I was in general.
Also, Gym-Tan-Laundry.
GTL for life. It's so bad.
I didn't ever dress like Jersey Shore, but I have the images burned into my brain. Over here on the West Coast we were, we were spared from the culture.
Oh, lucky.
Would you not, would you not wear a cheetah print like loafers or something today?
No, and I've actually, I yesterday was at a thrift store and there was, I hope I say this name right, the Damson Madder, I don't know if I'm pronouncing the brand right, those, do you know those cheetah kind of cargo pants, the leopard print? Oh, cool. They were there and I was like, And they're a great deal. And I, it wasn't me. I'm, I weirdly, there's some animal print that feels more subdued. And I know people think kind of cheetah leopard is a neutral, but it's not on me. So yeah. Yeah. The pass.
That's, that's, that's all you gotta know is. Yeah. Is it, is it a neutral for you? No. All right. Answered. Nope.
We talked about a little bit about your move and how that's impacting your style. Do you have any style goals that you're excited to work towards this year?
Yeah! I've been doing a low buy for two years now. So I try, this might sound like a lot to some people and maybe it doesn't, but I try not to buy last year. It was twenty-four pieces of clothing and this year it's twenty ten in the fall and winter and ten in the spring and summer. And every time I buy a piece, I try to donate a piece just because why did I bring this into my closet if I already had something that worked? So I want to kind of prove to myself I needed it. But yeah, and I also have kind of brands I won't shop with and I, and I try to thrift when I can. So those are kind of my goals for this year.
How did you land on the number twenty for this year?
Last year was twenty-four because I get paid twenty-four times in a year. So I was like, every time you get a paycheck, you can have a portion of it and go shopping. That was my. You know, my reasoning kind of like a budgeting style goal in mind. And then this year I just kind of cut it back a little bit more. So I was like, okay, you did twenty-four and now let's try for twenty and see where we get.
You know, I also recently moved a little bit less recently than you had spent about a year. I have certainly found the experience of moving to change my style a lot and the idea of limiting to twenty pieces seems a little daunting, if I'm honest. I also had some pretty big changes in my size that I've been navigating, but how do you handle that really big, like, culture slash climate change, especially given that you're limiting how many new pieces that you want to bring in.
Yeah, I actually do have some exceptions. I also fluctuate a lot with my size. So I never, for example, if I was to need to go up with jean size, I would never not allow myself to do so. So I allow necessities. So that to me is a necessity. Like I need clothes that fit me. Or like a t-shirt or something like I can purchase that as needed. I also don't really limit accessories. And for me, that's mostly like jewelry because I find it helps me wear my clothing more. So yeah. And I don't overspend on it. So it's not like I'm going crazy.
This is more like, do I really need another sweater at the moment? Probably not. I have a ton. You have jeans that fit at the moment and you like them. You don't need that dress because you don't wear it. So it's really a way to make me kind of think twice before I add something into my wardrobe.
That makes sense. I really appreciate that extra context. You know, sometimes I feel, I feel daunted and embarrassed in comparison to other people's low-buys when I'm like, I, I can't do that. Like, I have two sweaters right now. Like, I, I have to buy, I have to buy new sweaters. So I, I appreciate that, that clarification on, on what your low buys is really intending to do.
Yeah, of course, I think clothes should fit you and, and there shouldn't be a limit on how many you need to get up and get dressed. From there, it's just kind of being like, I probably don't need another white sweater when I have a white sweater kind of thing.
What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?
The thing that helped me most was getting up and getting dressed every day I could and taking a picture of that outfit and then saving it in that private Pinterest board. That really helped me realize what I like to wear. I even went so far as to make like different boards that were like hits and misses. So I could go back and be like, Hmm, it looks like every time I wore X, Y, Z, it was a miss. But every time I wore this, it was a hit. And then you start to find gaps too. I was listening to your podcast recently with Kelly and I think you guys were talking about t-shirt. And how you wear a t-shirt every day. And so you need six t-shirts. Like I noticed I do that too. And I was like, why didn't I just think to buy enough t-shirts. Like, why am I like, why am I recycling t-shirts? So you realize like, oh, I do feel good when I layer or I wear this.
And your personal style kind of, it, it finds itself really when you start getting dressed, I find.
Totally, and I think, not to steal your thunder on your advice here, but taking a really close look at what you as an individual are wearing. Can really help quiet the noise of external pressure. And again, we're not striving for not caring about other people's opinions. That's not necessarily the goal, but. Really giving yourself permission to lean into the things that do make sense for you. Like, you know, so many of the time, so much of the time you'll see like a capsule wardrobe that includes two t-shirts. You know, and if you see that, it's like, oh, that's all I need. To your point, taking photos of your outfit and really paying attention to what you're actually wearing and what you need. That can help bring that to the surface and quiet those external voices.
No, that's so true. And you can realize like you have enough. I think this scarcity mindset on social media can be really prevalent. And when you remind yourself what you own, you're like, oh, I do have enough in most cases.
Thank you, Stephanie. This was so much fun. Where can listeners find you?
Thank you. I loved this. I loved this chat. My Substack is Estilo de Moda (now, The Green Apple), which is personal style in Portuguese for anyone wondering why I have that. Weird name. I am on Instagram, but I don't post much style content there, but you can follow me at Steph_Johhnson17.
I hope we can keep the conversation going.
Thank you, Maureen.
Closing
Thank you to Stephanie Johnson for coming on the pod with me this week. I had such a good time talking with you.
And thank you to everyone who's listening, liking, subscribing, sharing, commenting. In less than a month of this podcast being live, we've already had over 2,000 downloads. I'm just so grateful for everyone's excitement and support for what we're doing here.
I have a quick mic update. This is the first full episode that was recorded with a microphone! So I'm really excited about improving the audio quality in weeks to come as well.
Next week's episode is a great one with Sogole Kane, another favorite on Substack, her newsletter is called Another Fashion Newsletter. Great name. And don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss any future episodes because new episodes are dropping every Friday. See you next week!
Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by Maureen Welton.
I love that. And we also used to work together at a Fortune 500 company. And I remember one thing that you shared with me when we were first starting to work together was that behavior is everywhere. I'm paraphrasing, but basically you're like, everything is a behavior. And that really helped click into my mind what you do and why it's perhaps different from other types of social sciences. So that being said, I have a really specific question for you. I'm very online in the personal style space. And, many people aspire to build a wardrobe that aligns with their values, whether that's buying second hand, choosing natural fibers or simplifying or, you know, any host of things. But they may struggle to follow through using a behavioral science lens. What factors do you think can create this gap between, you know, what we're hoping for and what ends up happening with our personal style?
Michelle
Yeah. So, Maureen, you just described something called the intention action gap. This is just a phenomenon that describes that there's often a gap between what people say they're going to do and what they really want to do. What they know is really important for them and what they actually do. It's why New Year's resolutions often fall through. And, healthy eating, working out, going to sleep on time, calling your parents, like whatever we all, like many of us, know that these things are important for us and intend to do it. But when it comes to actually. Executing on these goals. Things in life get in the way. And so in the personal style context, having some sort of a style goal to be more sustainable, for example, or to reduce one's consumption. Like somebody might really want to do this, but then. Struggled to follow through on their goal. And imagine the gap with like an abyss in the middle and. These things called, quote unquote, behavioral barriers getting in the way. There are some things that everyone should know about humans. Like some basic principles. I'll start with three.
So the first principle is that people are cognitive misers. This means that our brains want to use the least amount of energy, and a lot of our lives are run on autopilot because it just makes it more efficient to operate this way and not have to make so many decisions on a day to day. But because we're constantly trying to save mental energy, this can make it hard to be mindful of a habit that we have and to break bad habits. Because that takes mental energy to like. Decide to do something new all the time. So the cognitive miser principle can help to explain why people get caught in a pattern of behavior that they might not like.
Some other principles are that humans are highly emotional beings. We're strongly influenced by our emotions, even though we like to think that we make every decision totally rationally. So imagine if somebody is going to the grocery store and they have like a carefully thought out list, but they're hungry while they're shopping or stressed. Suddenly the chips look a lot more appealing. And same with shopping. It's like or with personal style. We'd like to think that we make all of our decisions rationally, but oftentimes we purchase something because of an emotional reason. Like stress.
And another really interesting principle is that humans are very self-focused while also being deeply social. So what I mean by this is that we have this egocentric bias. That causes us to see ourselves as the main character in our life story. And we're following the hero's journey. So we over represent how things from our own perspective when like we might think that something was a really big deal, but it might not be in the broader context of things. But simultaneously, like so many of our decisions, are guided by our drive to fit in and belong to a group. And so social influences can have the desire to belong and to be perceived well by others, can have a huge influence on personal shopping habits and personal style decisions that lead us to act against our best intentions.
Maureen
Mm. Well, first of all, thank you for sharing. Such a great crash course in behavioral science right off the bat, with the idea of cognitive misers - how we're really emotional make a lot of emotional decisions that could also apply to to getting dressed and shopping. And then also, that context of how, you know, being very social and we want to, you know, fit in with other people. I mean, those are all really important things to know. Just to give ourselves, you know, perhaps grace or forgiveness if we do act out of our own. I don't want to say best interest because that's not really it. But when we aren't acting in line with something that we might have set out to do.
Michelle
Yeah. And the other thing I'll say is that these are like it's really interesting because these principles can explain human behavior in a variety of different contexts from like how we spend our money to how we make our health decisions to how I make decisions about the environment and also personal style and shopping decisions, which is why psychology is such a great field. So that's one thing I want to say.
And the other thing I want to say is that oftentimes people are not aware of like the things, the barriers that get in the way of their intentions and actions. So like we have all these influences on our behavior, but like most people are aware of what's influencing their behavior, but they will. Like if you ask them directly, they'll come up with an explanation and say, oh, yeah, that's, that's why I did this. But that's because their brains just our brains just want to make up an explanation. But oftentimes the influences guiding us to do what we do in everyday life are below our conscious awareness.
Would you be able to give an example? So, like, let's say that someone is like, I bought this thing. You know, what an example be of of rationalizing, right? You know, you're giving a reason for why, you know, what a good example would be like, oh, it was on sale. Like, is that kind of an example of, of of not really understanding the the influence?
Michelle
Yeah. Yeah. Like you might ask somebody, why did you buy why did you buy that sweater? And they'll say, because I really care about having high quality items in my wardrobe. But maybe the deeper reason is like I have this desire to prove that I am enough and like I've never had expensive things in my life and etc., etc.
Maureen
Yes, yes. That's so helpful. I mean, and I think everything that I'm trying to do here with intuitive style and this idea of dressing intuitively is just, you know because we're not all behavioral scientists and we don't always we're not always going to be aware of like why we're really doing something. You know, I think it's really about. Being able to give ourselves forgiveness and acceptance when we make decisions that are not, you know, in line with what we say that we want, because we can predict that we will continue to make decisions that are not in line with our with what we set out to do. And, you know, the best thing I think that we can do is just say, like, yeah, sometimes that's going to happen.
Or even like, you know, from my for my life I had this really great curated style and bought a lot of really high quality things, a lot of things secondhand, you know, really curated. And then, you know, my body changed and I think it was due to just getting older. And, you know, a lot of those things that I had purposefully curated over time, no longer fit comfortably. And so I ended up needing to to rebuy a lot of things that I had purchased before, which meant, you know, I'm buying more, you know, new rather than secondhand because there's a level of urgency. But I also still want it to be stylish. And so when I kind of look back on those choices that I made to to basically survive through that really big life transition, you know, sure. I could say. Oh, I, I'm upset with myself because I bought all the stuff that, you know, on the surface you could say I didn't need because I'd already bought things in that category. But when I look at it more objectively now, I can say, Oh, I didn't need those things because the things that I had, weren't serving that purpose that they were meant to do anymore.
So I don't have a question there. I just wanted to kind of share like a little bit more explicit example there of, you know, what I think intuitive style means and Being able to predict that we're going to to make choices that are hard. We can still accept those for what they are.
Michelle
Yeah. I think that talks like I mean, I think the best thing you can do really with personal choices, with style or like I've said, do a lot of health behaviors. Like we always talk about the progress over perfection mindset and like you just have to. Like to have a fresh start and like start from where you are in the present and like let go of things and just try to like live aligned to your best intentions in the moment. Because if you are. Punishing yourself for making a mistake Like the research shows that tends to make people less successful with where they want to be in the long term.
Maureen
Yeah. So talking a little bit more about, the idea of intuitive style and what it means to like trust your own instincts when you're choosing clothing to purchase or, you know, choosing what to wear. I know that, finding connection to our inner voice can be really challenging, especially, you know, recognizing that the that inner knowing is actually separate from our thinking brain. I know I just kind of threw out a lot of jargon there, but. Can you talk through a little bit? Some behavioral strategies that people could employ to to really listen to that inner knowing separate from kind of those that bombardment of thoughts that we might have.
Michelle
Yeah, I have a few ideas. I think like there are constant demands for attention and just noise in our faces all the time and stressors. And so it's really easy and reasonable to be disconnected from our inner knowing these days. So not a behavioral strategy, but one strategy to just connect to your inner knowing and slow things down and become more present in general is yoga and meditation that can help you to develop more awareness of your emotions and notably to be able to. Witness and identify them as they come up and separate yourself from them so that you can observe them as emotions but not be like you are not the same as your emotions. Meditation and yoga helps. It's the practice of observing your emotions and witnessing them and letting them go. And as a result, it helps you to not be controlled by them or to like, helps you come to the realization that like you, your your soul, like you as a being are not. Necessarily what you are thinking and feeling at the moment. So that's that's one thing.
But I would say it's a behavioral science strategy to strengthen self trust when it comes to style decisions is to gather some data on yourself. This is also a behavioral science research method. Think back to times when you felt your most confident. And research shows that data. If you think back to past time, it's it's better to think back to times in the past when you felt like you. Think of concrete outfits where you felt really great and confident because it's more accurate than trying to like. Imagine how you're going to feel in the future with a new outfit.
So think back to like when you felt most confident and like loved how you were feeling and the outfits that you were wearing. And think about what's the common pattern there. So for example, like, all the outfits that when I think back in my life like recently, are slim, slim fitting, black or navy, natural, high quality material, like 100% cotton and maybe a little more luxurious. so that gives me some data that, oh, I think that there is little risk that if I buy something now that's like a high quality fitted navy sweater, that I'm not going to feel great in it because that's the type of outfit that has always, you know, I've always felt like my best self and that type of outfit.
Maureen
Yeah. I love that. Great example, too. what are the kind of feelings in your body that could indicate that those pieces of clothing, are a good fit for you? Do you feel relaxed or do you feel joyful or do you feel like a certain type of sensation?
Michelle
Oh. That is a great question. I guess it's more like a gut feeling. Probably confident. Probably confident and comfortable and confident. Comfortable in the yoga. Sometimes at the end of class, we bring our attention to our heart space and there's some sort of a warmth and a glow. But that's more like the the end of class glow where I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy.
But I feel like I've probably had that feeling like wearing a great outfit. But I would say it has to be. For me, it's a mix of feeling confident, like. Something I'd want to wear when having friends over for dinner. But also comfortable or not like I'm having trouble zipping something up or I can't sit comfortably. But yeah, the important part is. Confident. Confident has to be there. Not just comfortable. Too comfortable. I feel sloppy. Yeah.
Maureen
No, I totally understand that. And and thank you for for answering. And, you know, I asked this question because it's a difficult one. Right? I think so much of the kind of the Western culture that I think we were both raised in really tries to disconnect us from the way that we are feeling in our body. And without getting, you know, too political, I think it's kind of revolutionary, too, to actually sit with our feelings and become aware. And I and I ask, you know, what is that? What does it feel like to be confident in your body, to be comfortable not necessarily expecting that we have an answer right now, but really to kind of plant that seed for for you or for anyone listening that, you know, this is a practice and it's not something that is necessarily going to come naturally, but it's something that we can cultivate over time and and really just pausing and reflecting on what we wore and how we felt in it and trying to kind of make that connection between kind of our, our, our brains and what we're feeling in our body. So, so thank you for for bearing with me. It's a kind of a challenging question, um, digging a little bit more on that.
You know, you've talked about kind of. You know, wanting to feel confident and comfortable. And there are some certain silhouettes and colors that you like. Just can we talk a little bit more about how you decide what to buy and wear or what not to buy or wear?
Michelle
Yeah. I think that, like, my process has definitely changed. Just work like. Being more responsible with finance, like with finances and stuff like an undergrad in college I was very fortunate and like I just, you know, I lifeguarded and that was just like my find money and I would just make like impulse purchases and just like go out and not be that intentional about it. And I ended up donating a majority of that stuff. I don't think I've kept anything from college, but now, now I can't make a purchase. I am really nerdy and low risk, I would have to say, and I pretty much just gather past data on myself like, Oh, I'm never going to be unhappy with like a flattering navy blue tub or like I'm never yeah, I'm a pretty practical person, but I like, I like my pieces to be practical, but also make me feel attractive. So I'll buy like, luxury yoga, like, like, like lulu or lemon or Alo, but I'm really practical in the way that I dress and I like to buy pieces that I can feel attractive in but can also go on lunchtime power walks because I work from home. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Pretty much just low risk, low risk decisions these days.
Maureen
Yeah. And I'm curious to you know, you talked about maybe having some more like experimental purchases when you are an undergrad. I mean, going back to your your concept of gathering data on yourself, I mean, perhaps some of those experiences provided you data what you don't want to buy anymore. So maybe that's just part of the journey.
Michelle
Yeah. I like this stuff. Also, if it, if it's more helpful, like to be more specific, like the data. Like. Thinking not only the things I am most confident in, but the things that I'd actually reach for the most often versus what you get used.
Maureen
Yeah, totally. Totally. And also, you know, as your lifestyle shifts, maybe that changes to like maybe if you're an undergrad, you're going out. I'm like, yeah,
Michelle
I did do a different activities then. No, no bars. Yeah, bars. Not anymore. Totally. Totally.
Maureen
So we're recording this at the start of 2025. Do you have any style or personal goals that you're excited to work towards this year?
Michelle
Oh. Mhm. I think. Oh I think my style goals Mori. You recently told me about color analysis. Mm hmm. And I want to continue to carry my wardrobe, to match my color type and to edit out pieces where now I can't unsee. And also I feel that they no longer serve me.
Maureen
Can you tell me more about, you know, your experience with color analysis and how it relates to like maybe this idea of, of data?
Michelle
Yeah, prior to color analysis. You know I've been a silent this and sometimes I would get into a pattern of buying pieces and like wanting to feel a certain way in my wardrobe and lifestyle, having constraints like it needs to be practical, but that just not getting the feeling that I'm looking for and still feeling too frumpy. And I felt like I just kept making like, mistakes. Not that there's a right or wrong or rule book, but I just wasn't achieving the type of specific feeling I was going for to feel like sporty, but also like well dressed. And I think when I learned about color analysis that helped to explain some of the why, because I wasn't like a lot of my wardrobe was in colors that weren't optimized for my skin complexion and like my hair. And I noticed I can see the difference and explain like why why it works when I do purchase things that are aligned to color analysis and when I find like the optimal path, like I, I personally like to just to stick to that. And so yeah, it's really helped me to understand the why behind like why I felt like I. Was not quite happy with some of my other purchases or why they weren't feeling quite right for me.
Maureen
So kind of what I'm hearing and, and I'm also speaking from my own personal experience. So forgive me if I'm I'm overstating this, but just kind of hearing like you did have a sense inherently of like what did and didn't work, but maybe there were again, like those external factors that told you to buy something else instead, you know, like, I mean, I can speak from my perspective, you know, when I lived in the Pacific Northwest, all that everyone is wearing, like the colors that kind of really drained my my skin. So like lots of olive green and orange and burgundy. And so I would I would wear those colors to kind of fit in with the people around me, which I totally respect. Like that's sometimes helpful. And then, you know, when I did color analysis, I realized like, oh yeah, I never really like these colors on me. I just wanted to fit in. And it can be kind of helpful to have that data that's like, Oh yeah, I was right. There was something happening here. And it just helps like build confidence in us when we, when we take like a, you know, when we happen to be super analytical people like we are like you and I are, it can help to see, like, have a rationale for why we might be feeling a type of way. Yeah. And I'm curious your take on this. Like I think once we have that kind of. That data from from doing a color analysis and understanding like what colors are most harmonious. Like it kind of can help build that self trust to a point where you don't need to rely on your color analysis results at some point but you can just use it as like a reference point to how you got to now. But it doesn't necessarily need to like guide all your choices, but it can just be like, Oh yeah, I already knew that. It's nice to have that opinion or that, that, you know, that reference. And now I can use my own discretion moving forward. I'm curious if you have that kind of take on it or do you view it as more like, you know, I'm going to follow this to the tee?
Michelle
Uh, no, probably the the first one. I think also that like before color analysis, I didn't even have any idea what were my best colors and I wasn't like socially influenced. It just kind of felt or maybe I like, I would just like see things on Instagram and like what was trendy and stuff. But I felt like I was like. She's in the dark order. But it was my style, like just shooting darts on the board without a strategy. I feel like now feels like I can have a strategy and like a rationale to back up some of my, like an explanation of why it works essentially to be more strategic with my style choices or to if I want to go off the strategy. And that's also a mindful choice. Like, if yeah, like purposely I want to get yellow gold. You know, that's kind of harmonious, but like, yeah, I'd be surprised when that happens.
Maureen
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And, and, you know, whenever I talk about color analysis, I always try to frame that reminder that color analysis results strive to be harmonious. Right. And that is only one kind of metric by which you can evaluate what colors you want to wear. And, harmony may not be always what we're seeking in an outfit or in our self-expression. And so, like, I love color analysis as a data point that we can use to kind of guide our choices, but also where we want to Go away from harmony to right and just doing that mindfully, should we desire to. So this has been really fun. And talking about behavioral science and how it relates to getting dressed in our personal style.
I know that our listeners can find you at your fantastic podcast. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing with Deep Thoughts.
Michelle
Yeah! Listeners, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. And I'm also starting a podcast called Deep Thoughts with Michelle Handy at the intersection of behavioral science, tech, design, thinking and personal growth. And the theme is not as honed-in as Maureen’s, but I like to talk to cool people about topics related to personal growth, like overcoming imposter syndrome or breaking free from perfectionism, social emotional skills that are going to help us. Thrive in 2025, etc. So yeah, you can subscribe to my podcast and we'll have a link for you.
Maureen
Absolutely. And basically, to me, your podcast is behavioral science is everywhere.
Michelle
Yes! And everywhere. This is to help explain everything.
Maureen
Yeah, I think it's not that it's not honed. I think it's just that it applies to so many different areas of our life that you'd be doing a disservice to only focus on one area. So I highly recommend Deep Thoughts with Michelle Handy.
Well, thank you, Michelle. This is so much fun and I'll see you later.
Michelle
Thanks, Maureen.
Closing
Thanks for listening to Intuitive Style. This was a fantastic episode and if you enjoy it, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening, or share this episode with someone who you think might be interested.
See you next week for an episode with Stephanie Johnson from Substack, and subscribe to make sure you get notified for upcoming episodes.
Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by Maureen Welton.
Kelly: Yes, happily. My made up word that I've really taken to heart kind of started when I began thinking about style and really being intentional with my style. I loved Allison Bornstein’s three word method, and she kind of led me to Amy smilovic of Tibi and Tibi’s acronym, CMC: “Chill Modern Classic” that I know she designs within.
I spent a lot of time really trying to figure out my three words, like banging my head against the wall, what are my three words? And the way that I initially came to it was trying to look at myself and my clothes. But Allison talks about how at least one of your words is more of an aspirational word. So I started looking at influencers or individual outfits, photos that spoke to me from like an aspirational place. And I found that in each of those images there would be part of the outfit that was sort of minimal and maybe that was like in color or silhouette, but there was always something that made the outfit stand out. And again, it could have been color or silhouette. It could have been like a special piece that that took the outfit over the top.
As I tried to distill that, I was looking at we've got like the Moosgaard sisters on the one side who I did find really inspirational. And they're like, you know, these beautiful Scandinavian twins. And then I also look at like Leandra Medine Cohen, known for her sort of maximalist outfits. And to me, everyone that I really aspire to existed in between those two poles. So then Midimalist came to mind. And as soon as I started to write about it and think about it, it felt like a real landing place for me and my style.
Maureen: That was such a great answer and just so fun to hear. And I mean, personally, the Moosgaard sisters and Leandra Medine Cohen, are just absolute style icons for me as well. No surprise there that we have people in common. But I think it's so important to talk about our style influences because, to me, intuitive dressing is not a rejection of, external influences or, rejection of dressing like other people. It's really about how can we how can we take what's useful from looking at outside influences without trying to copy people or, sometimes that can be okay, but without losing sense of our own identity as we get dressed. It’s fun to hear how looking at external influences really helped you understand yourself better.
Could you talk a little bit more about, how you balance listening to your own style, intuition and then also being influenced by what's happening around you?
Kelly: Yeah. And you know, I'm glad you made the distinction of rejecting outside influences because I find that it's really helpful.
In general, I consume a lot of fashion content because I just like thinking about fashion and style, but I try to consume like a wide variety. YouTube videos, Pinterest images, obviously Substack and then a little bit of visual social media like TikTok and Instagram. I'm not on either platform like with a profile, but obviously I can see the content.
The distinction that I've made for myself is to stay an inch deep and a mile wide in fashion so that I can kind of create a filter for myself.- Kelly Williams
What's happened for me in the past is that I'll get too deep into one person's style or one specific aesthetic, and then you can kind of lose your own thoughts and feelings about whether that's a piece of clothing or a trend, because you see this person do it or it fits your like preferred aesthetic, and then you're sort of lost and you've lost touch with to the point of this podcast, you've lost touch with your intuition of being able to say, Oh, wait, this part of it, actually, that doesn't work for me, but all these parts do or, whatever the case may be.
Maureen: Thank you so much for sharing that because I so relate and I think it's so easy to kind of glamorize someone that we think is stylish online and just be like, Oh, well, they've got it. Let me just do what they're doing. And it'll work for me. And, you know, for me, that's how I ended up having some disordered relationship with shopping in the past where, oh, this person is selling this thing and I'll buy whatever they're wearing and then I'll, then I'll look look good. A lot of those purchases, were not cheap and then also didn't work out. And so that's how, you end up with kind of a revolving door of clothing if you're not careful. I love what you said about an inch deep and a mile wide. I'm going to remember that. That's a great way to talk about the the fashion space.
Let's get into your personal style a little bit more. As I spend more time writing in the personal style space, rather than just consuming, I’m becoming more and more interested in the why behind how people dress versus what people are wearing. Because as we've already talked about, you know, getting dresses is deeply personal. So in broad strokes, how do you decide what to buy and wear?
Kelly: Yeah, such a good question and I think very much a work in progress in this area. But so I think something that's foundationally helpful for me is that I budget. I got married when I was relatively young and so I didn't have any money. I've always been a budget and then kept a wish list for as long as I can remember. And the how of my wish list has kind of evolved, but I'm also a big believer in sleeping on something and waiting to purchase.
I tend to overthink everything, but I don't think I've ever regretted overthinking a purchase and weighing the cost of an item against my lifestyle, against how it fits within the larger context of my wardrobe. I probably say no to like ten things for every one thing that I do. Usually an item that gets bought like fills a true hole in my wardrobe. We could get into the nitty gritty of like a true need versus like what most of us experience, which is like a want, need and need, but it'll fill a true hole in my wardrobe or I just like, feel that visceral attraction. I can't get this off my mind kind of thing. And then a lot of things don't get purchased because maybe I'm unsure of the fit or the color. Oftentimes the cost is too high, so I just like, can't make the juice worth the squeeze. Like if I'm going to spend X amount on an item, I have to really feel like it's going to, like, do something for me, you know?
Maureen: I would love to get into the nitty gritty of how you discern a need from a want. This is a question I've been grappling with for a while, and I have a clear sense of, what my personal wants are versus my needs, but I'm having such a hard time kind of putting into words. So I'd love to hear from you, do you have any way to describe the difference?
Kelly: Yeah. You know, like I said, work in progress, you and I, solidarity. Maureen, because I feel like that's a true issue that we're all sort of grappling with anybody who's like a consumer of fashion. But I will say, recently I started thinking about and shout out to Reeva left of tripping the Substack because she phrased it as like buying puzzle pieces for your wardrobe.
I really started to think about if something that I was buying gives me like a new piece of the puzzle, like a new a new thing that allows me to complete a picture more substantially. For example, I have way too many pairs of jeans. So many jeans. I wear only a handful regularly. And then I have a couple that I sort of like rotate in and out of. And yet I will find myself putting pants and jeans on my wish list constantly.
It's a real problem… jeans and then also like basic tees. I could buy a thousand little t shirts and I would have nowhere to wear them. And so I'm really trying in 2025 and I still keep my wish list, but I'm trying really hard to look critically at my wish lists like, well, does this actually like help you complete a new part of your puzzle or is this going to be redundant for what you already own? Time will tell if I'm good at that because, you know, there's still like at the top of my wish list is this like gray t shirt? And I'm like, I can't get myself to take it off my wish list. But I also know that it's it's going to go on the pile of t shirts that I already own. So like a work in progress.
Maureen: Yeah! I can just quickly share like the closest that I've gotten and see what resonates to us. What helped me identify needs from once was ruthlessly cutting down the number of items in my closet at a time. Partially this was putting quite a few items just stored away in my closet and then over time actually decluttering a lot of these items. I think it's worth noting, too, that I did have some pretty big changes in my size, and so a lot of the things that I ended up parting with just didn't fit comfortably anymore, which made it a lot easier to part with them. Had they so fit, you know, maybe I would have a few of those pieces still because they were purchased with intention.
What I experienced from having a greatly reduced wardrobe was…everything has to be a workhorse. Everything has to be comfortable. It has to be something that I can wash and wear, you know, at least once a week, or I can go a couple of times without washing. Understanding kind of what each garment needs to to practically, like how it needs to function is kind of half of it.
And then the other half was like in a particular week, what am I wearing and how many of these items do I really need to go a week between doing laundry? I'm talking really specifically here because that's where the rubber meets the road for me is like I'm doing one load of whites and one load of darks every weekend. In between that I need to have enough things to wear for my real life. And so, you know, some people would say, oh, you only need two T-shirts. I completely disagree because for me, I'm wearing a t shirt every day with a different cardigan on top or a sweater on top. And so I need six or seven t shirts to make it through the week. The biggest thing for me was just changing the time scale on which I think about my clothes. I'm not thinking about how many garments do I need for a month. I'm thinking week by week. What am I wearing? What do I need? And then. You know, how many items does that actually require? And for me, right now, that's about 30 to 40 ish pieces and only a couple of bottoms and actually a bigger variety of tops and then a bigger variety of shoes. So, yeah, I'm just curious, like, what do you think about that? Do you think that having fewer pieces is required to come up with a wish list? Or is that just something that worked for me?
Kelly: Well, so you bring up a really interesting exercise and and I'm not saying that this is the way that you approached it, but the idea of paring down your wardrobe to, fewer pieces. And then if we, like, actually physically moved the rest of our wardrobe out of our closet, it would be sort of interesting at what point we would bump up against this sort of need want that we're talking about. Right. Like, okay, so you pare down to the things that you really think, okay, this is the thing I wear all the time and I can really like make a wardrobe out of this. I saw and I followed your Project 333. And so I think that at some point in that for any of us, we would bump up against, like, oh, I didn't include like for myself, I have a really casual lifestyle so I could see me bumping up against. I didn't include a pair of trousers, but tonight I'm getting dressed up and so then pulling the trousers out of wherever, wherever we've stored the rest of our wardrobe and bringing it in. I bet at the end of a week, to your point, we would have actually a very small number of pieces that we actually wore and needed, and we would find those pain points like you talked about with t shirts. Or like I said, if if somebody works in an office and they have, they're thinking, oh, most of what I wear is office wear. And then they realize that, Oh, would I like putting jeans on when I get home or whatever the case is? So it is sort of an interesting thought exercise in that way.
And you live somewhere like I do where there's multiple seasons. And so I do think that there's also this constraint around weather that a lot of people have to face. Where I have we have really hot summers in Colorado and then we have really cold winters. And then obviously there's these like shoulder seasons where jackets are helpful and sweaters and stuff like that. When I think about missing puzzle pieces, I'm often thinking of the future season, right? Right now when I look at puzzle pieces I'm missing, I'm thinking about what I what constraint I felt in summer or fall.
Also, because those items are on sale and I'm a budget are so I'm shopping those types of things. But usually I don't find that I'm missing anything in the season that I'm currently in, right? Like it's winter here, it's really cold and I'm like, Oh, I'm good, I've got sweaters, I've got jeans, I've got layering pieces, and no one could convince me that I need more winter clothes right now. And maybe in the summer I'll go. Yeah, but, Kelly, do you remember that you really wanted, like, a pair of more substantial boots that kept your feet warm? So there's that, like, hindsight advantage of being able to, like, see something as, Oh, I really could have used that when I needed it. And now enough time has passed that I could like thoughtfully make that purchase.
Maureen: Yeah. You bring up a good point. And I think this is something that I use to come up with my wish list, which is like paying attention to when I'm getting dressed in the morning. What am I reaching for that isn't there? And it sounds like, some of this you do in hindsight, but there must be mornings when you, you know, are getting dressed and there's those boots that you're talking about in summer. you're reaching for those, but they're not there. Those are the things that I would consider like those needs. Right. It's like when I had five t -shirts and it's day five and yes, I could wear my jumpsuit, but I don't really feel like wearing that today. That's what I would say, okay, maybe I need 6th t-shirt and or, maybe I'm getting dressed for dinner with friends and I don't want to wear a t shirt right now. I want to wear something a little bit different that might indicate to me, Oh, well, actually, I'd like to have a V-neck long sleeve top that brings a little bit of variety into how I'm dressing. Those kind of things that I'm reaching for but don't have, that's personally how I'm trying to make my wish list.
And it's actually to me, I most often make regret purchases when I'm buying for the season ahead because as diligent as I might have been with noticing those needs in the past season when it comes to buying it, when it's not the right weather, I'm forgetting about, you know, how maybe I want another maxi dress or a mini skirt, but when it comes down to it, if it's sweaty, you know, I that doesn't actually feel good on my body when summer comes around and I, I personally find I make better choices when I shop for the season that we're currently in, which, of course, you know, has its own drawbacks as far as like being able to get it or, you know, feeling rushed to purchase it. But anyway, just different approaches, it sounds like.
Kelly: Totally. It's and it's really interesting because we all do approach shopping so differently. And I have friends who do impulse shopping better than me and I say better because like I can hardly go to a physical store and walk out with something anymore because I'm like, Oh, I really need to think about this purchase. And so, yeah, everyone's so different in the way that we build our wardrobes is so different. But you know, to, to the point of this podcast, it, it's sort of interesting the way that like as long as you are following your intuition and being really honest with yourself, then there's really no wrong way to shop, in my opinion.
Maureen: Yeah. Yeah. And collecting data about your own behavior and your own preferences. Right. And you know, to your point, it sounds like you have data on yourself that, you know, making impulse purchases is not something where you feel comfortable and that is totally valid. Like if if shopping online is something that you have more success with or, you know, going into shopping in a store with a list is more successful for you. To me, that's intuitive shopping, right? It's it's taking that data about your personal preferences and ignoring all the people online that are saying you should only shop in store you should only shop online, you should shop by link in bio. You know, at the core you've decided based on your own data, your own preferences, what, works for you and just going for it. And I think that's that's what we're here for. I love it. Talking a little bit more about your style. How has your style evolved over the years? Have you gone through any memorable phases?
Kelly: Yeah. You mentioned a story earlier that really resonated with me because and so my style evolution was really heavily influenced by having kids. I had three babies in three years and once I was finished nursing my youngest and sort of like being able to like own my body as my own again. I remember feeling so lost in my style because I had been following a few influencers on Instagram like a little too closely and then just like mindlessly buying their recommendations. And naturally, these women did not have the same lifestyle that I did. They weren't having babies. They were recommending things that were great for them but did not work for me. And so that was a a memorable phase in the sense that I learned so, so, so much about myself. And and I'm really grateful that there was this collective shift toward minimalism and quiet luxury after I had kids, because fashion felt like it was focusing on buying good basics, good foundational pieces for your wardrobe. And and so I did that right. I bought jeans that actually fit me. I bought nice neutral tops and knits. I really think that anyone experiencing a life change, like you just graduated from college or you just had your kids, you're moving, you're going through menopause, all of those life changes, we have to give ourselves the grace to kind of start from scratch in our wardrobe. And and actually, it would be in those phases that I would tell anyone, like take a step back and really think about what is good for you in your lifestyle, because it's pretty rare that someone on the Internet is, is living the same life as you and they're recommending from their lifestyle. But it might be really different from your lifestyle.
Maureen: Yes, lifestyle! And also perhaps physical preferences on how you would like things to fit. So on that topic, how does body awareness influence the way you dress? Perhaps this is a new term to you, but basically body awareness would be, you know, do gravitate towards any specific textures or fits that, feel comfortable or safe on your body.
Kelly: Yes. All of my clothes have to lead with practicality because I have youngish kids. My kids are getting bigger now. But for a while when I was kind of building this foundational wardrobe, I prioritized being able to sit comfortably, like on the couch or on the floor, being able to cook food without a sleeve, getting in the way, to be able to like pick my kid up and carry them on my hip without it making my shirt right up or twist around or my dress, you know, also now it's too short. But I've never been someone who wears a lot of sweat pants. I work from home. I will not see a solitary soul in the day except for my kids. And I will still opt for denim because getting dressed in a full outfit, like, really makes me feel like I did something for myself. So and so when it's specific styles, it's usually that I want to feel relatively put together, right? You saw my outfit today when we started this. I'm just wearing jeans and a knit, but I've opted for an actual knit sweater instead of a sweatshirt. And I opted for denim instead of leggings and not because they're better for, the way I look, but because they're better for the way I feel.
But I've never been someone who wears a lot of sweat pants. I work from home. I will not see a solitary soul in the day except for my kids. And I will still opt for denim because getting dressed in a full outfit, like, really makes me feel like I did something for myself.
Maureen: I love that. I love it so much. Just hearing you say that, you know, getting dressed feels like you're doing something for yourself. I mean, that's what intuitive style is to me, is being able to identify. What works for you. And you know, I think somedays for me that's the same like putting on a pair of jeans that are comfortable enough to to work from home and all day. That sometimes feels exactly to your point, like, oh, I'm ready to take on the day. It's in alignment with, you know, how I'm feeling. And then other days you know, that that does feel accessible and maybe a pair of like, you know, nicer leggings that I could also wear out of the house without feeling that I'm missing that self-expression element that I would be looking for. I think is so important and deciding whatever that means for you on your best day or on a not so not so great date. I think is really important.
I also loved hearing you talk about, you know, finding pants that you can sit in. I don't know if you ever went through this phase of having a lot of pants that were punishing, I know, with the skinny jeans era and I know a lot of people are very comfortable in their skinny jeans I am not coming for you, but I know when I wore them I would often get stomach aches and feel just really uncomfortable or, you know, buy a pair of pants that really fit me comfortably because they made my butt look better or whatever. And I right now I'm absolutely loving buying pants that may to some people be considered too big, but to me are just right because I can sit in them and not feel uncomfortable.
Kelly: Well, totally. And I, I am so grateful to, you know, this fashion universe and the space that we're in right now because there's all these different silhouettes of pants that we are like we're kind of open minded toward, right? There have been fashion seasons where it's like low rise denim is the way to go. And if you're not wearing that and you're wearing mom jeans and, you know, that's sort of labeled as uncool or like you said, skinny jeans. And right now it feels really freeing to get to choose like really any variety of Jean that you want to wear. I'm so grateful that we are normalizing, buying maybe a bigger size right there. It feels like from a trend perspective, we're all okay saying I sized up in these jeans or whatever and that's freeing because as a millennial, I grew up very attached to the number that was like on my size, right?
I still wore my pre kid jeans after I had kids, still wore them for like probably two years. And to your point it was punishing. It was so punishing to myself and really unfair to poor Kelly, who just wouldn't go to the mall and buy new pants.
And so truly, the I mean, the last time that I like really, really shopped in a mall was going and saying, I'm going to buy pants that fit me today. I'm going to go to the store and I'm going to try on, you know, four different sizes and figure out which size actually fits me. And I'm going to buy it and I'm not going to care what the number is. And so, yeah, so, so, so grateful that we are existing in this time when it feels like there's just a greater variety. We're not trying to squeeze everybody all these round pat or square pegs into round holes, you know.
Maureen: Yeah, yeah. I love that. And I love to talk with you a little bit about trends. I know being in kind of the minimalist space, I know we're kind of both in that space. In between, I hear a lot about like timeless dressing and avoiding trends. And, you know, my personal take is like, I'm glad there are trends. If there weren't trends, there would be no, no. Now, we wouldn't be able to have this like wealth of different parts to choose from, for example, or, you know, what, if the thing that was the trend at the moment was, was something that just inherently didn't work for us and we weren't able to find things that were in stores right now that that met our need. But we could find it from, you know, the thrift store or, you know, just to me, like a trend really helps us, helps over time, bring freshness and variety and not getting stuck in and one particular time. So I'm curious for like your take on trends and how they relate to to dressing timelessly, if at all?
Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. I, I will like gladly admit that I am a total trend follower. I like trends. I like the way that you, as you put it, trends kind of allow us to like open our eyes to something that we might not have considered before. Right. So like a couple of years ago when sneakers became fashionable and we're talking like the sambo's. Right. And I was. It was. Such a eye opener for me that someone who's always I've always kind of identified more on the feminine side of dressing. And also I'm seeing girls on the Internet wearing like these great maxi dresses with a pair of sneakers. And I thought, Oh, like that. That's really cool. I like the tension that's in that outfit between the masculine and feminine. I also like that sneakers are a really comfortable shoe option, but I don't have to go full like sport mode to wear any. So I like I ate it up.
I remember I got a pair of adidas and I was like, this fits so well in my wardrobe. I feel really like I'm able to self express in a genuine way, even though they were trendy and it was hard buying a pair of handbags at the time because obviously half the internet is telling you to do it and the other half of the Internet is telling you that if you went out and bought some because you are such a fool, because it's just a trend. Yeah. And so I love having one finger on a pulse of trends because it really does let you dip your toe into something that you may not have realized was for you. Right. That even this conversation that we had around denim shape, the shapes of denim. I was a skinny, skinny jean girl. And then when shapely denim, you know, different silhouettes, barrel cuts, horseshoe came out, I thought, mm, I don't know about that, but I did buy one pair just to kind of like get my toe in and I really loved wearing them. And so I collected another pair and, and I liked using them to contrast these in between these days that I was wearing slimmer denim.
Now, I love that my wardrobe contains both or not that there's two silhouettes, but like that it contains a multitude of silhouettes. And you know, we talked about having a pared down wardrobe and there's so much good in that. But I also really to be the devil's advocate, I also love being able to have a wardrobe that contains, you know, a good barrel like denim and a good straight denim and a good wide leg. Because, I don't know, it could be that like on a day to day basis, you're feeling a different thing. Or it could be like seasonally where you're like, You know what I am? I all I want to do is put on those wide leg pants and you do it over and over. And my advice to anyone is like, don't get rid of the denim that you're not wearing anymore. I mean, size with standing, comfort with standing, like tuck them away somewhere else if you really think you're not going to wear them, but don't get rid of them because trends do come back around, as we all know at this point. And it would be nice to have it and not have to go out and rebuy it.
Maureen: Totally. And I think you just kind of hit the nail on the head with exactly what this podcast is about. I used to have this perspective of like, okay, I really want to write online and be in the fashion space, but I just don't really feel comfortable, sharing what I'm doing as kind of the the law of the land or trying to to assert the, you know, the way that I get dressed as the way that other people should. For many years kind of how fashion influencers and, magazines kind of were were positioned as, you know, quote unquote, experts.
And, yes, there is certainly expertise involved with, finding the right brands or finding high quality pieces or really knowing what is coming up trend wise and being able to kind of to be on top of that. And I'm not negating any of that at all. But for me, taking the time to share what works for me and also acknowledge that that is personal. And you know, my choice to only wear full length pants feels really good to me and I have no desire whatsoever to come online and tell people that they should only wear full length pants, but really just share that like it's okay if you want to do that, it's okay if you want to have a multitude of pants options. Really by sitting with ourselves and, and seeing ourselves as separate from that, we're in relation to people online, I think that's how we, we understand ourselves better and can make space for like our personal preferences and just and just be okay with them and, know that disagreeing or having your own way of doing something doesn't mean anything about anyone else, right? Like you and I can dress differently and love and respect the way that the other person dresses. And and I think that's kind of where we're moving towards. I think I hope as the fashion space is like mutual respect and understanding. And yeah, I just I think that's where we're going and I hope that's where we're going.
Kelly: I hope so, too. And I and I have to say, like Substack has been a truly special space for me to cultivate that muscle that you're talking about of like, Oh, I can love that for you. And it not necessarily be for me because I think that there's a greater multitude of people posting their outfits or their thoughts and feelings about fashion. And and I found that I'm able to appreciate everyone's outfit as it is on them, but not necessarily feel like, oh my gosh, I have to go try to figure that outfit out for myself.
Maureen: Yeah, yeah. I love that. So I just heard some fantastic advice on keeping the pants. Totally agree. Is there any other advice that you would give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?
Kelly: Yeah, you know, I thought about this a lot, so I will say that for me, as I as I mentioned, like it was really important for me to build a foundational wardrobe. And so Irene Kim (김애린) on Substack has an amazing three part series about like building a foundational wardrobe. I highly recommend starting there for anybody who is is building their wardrobe. But assuming that someone has all of the building blocks in place, I am a big fan and we touched on this earlier. I'm a big fan of observing what you like and others and then trying to distill it down. There's so much advice right now and like trusting your gut and don't consume fashion media because it's unhelpful for you.
I actually think that like watching a coworker or a neighbor or someone that you see at the gym every day, seeing what it is about their outfit that speaks to you and I think is is helpful, and as you said, it taps into that intuitive feeling. And I went through intuitive eating as a course in different seasons of my life as I've struggled with disordered eating and something that they're really big on is like being able to be in touch with, with what you're feeling and what you're thinking.
And I have since kind of expounded on that to say like, well, what would fulfill me physically versus fulfill me mentally, right? So like I might be full of food, but mentally I kind of want to eat a little bit more and that would fulfill me mentally. And so I do think that there's this really crucial component when you're building your wardrobe of like what fulfills you physically foundational stuff and then what fulfills you emotionally. And that's where you just really have to master seeing other people's stuff going. I notice that they wear really feminine tops and I don't have a lot of feminine tops in my wardrobe, so maybe I'll. I'll experiment with the feminine touch.
Then there's just such smart people on the Internet who have broken down the style of fashion icons. And so you can use those as a study in clothes, right? A;lison Bornstein has done the three word method for a bunch of popular celebrities or people who are like classical icons like Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. And I think that it's helpful to listen to someone else talk about style and see how they break down style and then go, Oh, what actually resonates with me about Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen is the fact that all of their clothes are oversize. Huh? I didn't I didn't know that before. And now I know that. And now I can look for oversize pieces for myself.
So, yeah, I mean, I will sing the song that it's a great it's it's helpful to be on the Internet when you're trying to figure out your style, even though that seems a little counterintuitive. And in some ways I love it. I mean, full circle to just go back to my first question about what is Midimalist and and how, for you that was understanding your preferences as you found them through other people and understanding like, oh, this is the thing that I'm drawn to about that and why or or how that plays out for me might not be exactly how it plays out for them, but I'm still, you know, learning from them and understanding that maybe my space is a little bit different.
Maureen: Totally, yes. Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for everything that you've shared as per usual. I'm just in of the kind of self-reflection and an awareness that you have around your style and how you turn that into really cool outfits, too. So thank you again. And where can our listeners find you?
Kelly: Yes, please come find me on Substack. It's the only place I really exist on the internet. But my Substack is Midimalist and I'm a major fan of the chat because the people in the Midimalist chat are just like so kind and supportive. And if you are on your fashion journey and really like trying to figure it out, you like there's just a million cheerleaders in the minimalist chat who will tell you you look awesome today or try wearing these kind of shoes. So it's the best.
Maureen: I love it. I second that you've really created a great community in that chat, so kudos to you for for making that space for people. Well, thanks so much, Kelly. And any thing that Kelly just referenced in this call, make sure to include links with the episode. And with that, I'll say goodbye.
Closing
Well, that was super fun. Thank you again to our guest, Kelly Williams for coming on the pod. It was so fun chatting with you.
I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you did, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.
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See you next week for an episode with behavioral scientist Michelle Handy and subscribe to make sure you get notified for upcoming episodes. See you next week!
Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by Maureen Welton.
Okay. Thanks so much. So you are an absolute pioneer in the intuitive style space and you've been leveraging principles of intuitive eating and Health-At-Every-Size in your work as a stylist, well before these were well known concepts. So would you just briefly define these terms and share how you incorporate them into your work?
Dacy
Intuitive eating is, I guess you would call it, a kind of a method or a way of of eating that was written about in a book by Evelyn Triboli. And in the book, there are some principles that are outlined. The basic gist of it is that diets restrict what we can eat, and then our bodies don't get necessarily what they need. And when we're not listening to our bodies, we're not allowing it sometimes everything that it needs. And then we also have kind of a rebound. Like if we're restricting, then often our bodies will try and make up for that, like as you know, as they, you know, should naturally. So the concept of intuitive eating is a is about it's about a lot of things, but it's about kind of trying to learn your body's cues, listening to your body, trying to determine what it needs at different points, and not demonizing that and just allowing that.
And generally, when you begin to practice intuitive eating, there's a long period of time, it could be years, where your body is recovering from that restriction and it may feel like it's needing too much, but it's really recovering. Ultimately the outcome, the goal would be to really be in tune with your body's signals and feed it accordingly. There's a lot more, of course, that goes into that.Health-at-every-size is a concept that just simply means that you do not have to be thin to be healthy that people at any size can be healthy, and that we cannot look at someone and judge their health by their size. And again, lots more to unpack there. But, you know, that's the basic gist of it.
Health-at-every-size is a concept that just simply means that you do not have to be thin to be healthy that people at any size can be healthy, and that we cannot look at someone and judge their health by their size.
Maureen
How do these concepts fit in with your approach to styling?
Dacy
If you are trying to change your body or if you are not happy with where your body is, it's going to be very hard to get dressed. It's going to be very hard to figure out your style. It's going to be very hard to detach from kind of societal pressures and external messages about what you should wear, because we get the same kind of messaging from diets, right? This is what you should be eating. Listen to this expert. Ignore your own cues. When I first started working with women to help them with their closets over and over and over, I saw that we couldn't make a lot of progress because everyone was trying to change their body or to revert back to a previous body that they had had. And so, you know, we couldn't we could. But what was keeping women holding on to clothes was the idea that they should be another size. And then if they held onto those clothes, maybe that would motivate them or with shopping or, you know, with shopping, it was like, well, I'm you know, I'm going to deprive myself of clothes that fit until my body fits a smaller size.
When I first started working with women to help them with their closets over and over and over, I saw that we couldn't make a lot of progress because everyone was trying to change their body or to revert back to a previous body that they had had.
And in terms of developing their style, they couldn't look at an image of an outfit or any particular style without relating it to whether it would look good on their body. You know, everything just kind of came back to that. And so it started to be clear to me that we needed to talk about those concepts. We needed to give permission and talk about the fact that, like, your body can be okay where it is. You can work on accepting your body. It's a very long journey. I don't think anybody in this day and age is ever going to get there. But, you know, we need to be open to these concepts if we're going to be able to work on our style.
Maureen
I mean, already it just so aligned with what I have experienced personally and then I've been in the observing of style online space for a while and I just completely agree that it's it's so difficult to really understand or define your personal style when you can't accept your body the way it is. And it's just such a blocker. You have a notable style column on Substack called unflattering. Just one last definition. What does ‘unflattering’ mean to you?
Dacy
Well, I think we have to start first with what flattering means generally to most people and to most people, it's really something that they strive for. Again, in my experience working with women. For many of them, that was the top priority in their clothing. Whether it was flattering or not was more important than whether they even liked it. Certainly more important than whether they were comfortable. And and yet the real if we kind of like, you know, are honestly looking at the meaning of the word, what it really means in our common usage is to use clothing to look as small as possible. And so I just want to reject that concept entirely. And so to me, I wanted to kind of reclaim this idea of something being unflattering. You know, like the idea that you would never wear you would never choose to wear something that was unflattering. I just wanted to push back against that. And I guess, give everyone permission to not have to aim for that as the goal.
MaureenWould you share a little bit more about that idea of giving permission? One thing that I consider sometimes, as I enter the space of sharing what I wear online, there are aspects to being ‘flattering’ that I still resonate with around color or even just sometimes a garment that is flattering is also comfortable because it respects the shape of my body. For example, you know, I have curves. And if I wore something that was boxy and didn't really respect the shape of my body, that also might be uncomfortable because it doesn't fit [how I like]. So would you maybe share a little bit of your perspective on the difference between rejecting unflattering as something that we live within versus accepting the aspects of flattering that also just make sense for us. Do you have a perspective on that?
Dacy
Absolutely. I mean, I think that there are certainly uses of the word that are not kind of aligned with diet culture or, you know, the beauty ideal. And you mentioned a couple of them. Perhaps you like certain colors on yourself. Sometimes you put on a garment and you just light up a little bit and, you know, and other people would say, that's flattering because you look happy in it or because you look comfortable. But not to put you on the spot. But even the example you gave is that is your personal preference. And so you're able to say, well, I prefer clothes that align to the curves of my body a little bit more, but someone else with the exact same size and shape could if they wanted to reject the idea that that the clothes had to fit the curves of their body.
Perhaps you like certain colors on yourself. Sometimes you put on a garment and you just light up a little bit and, you know, and other people would say, that's flattering because you look happy in it or because you look comfortable…. But even the example you gave is that is your personal preference.
And they could say, I actually really prefer this androgynous, boxy look where no one can see the shape of my body. I prefer to, you know, not be perceived in that way. And so, again, it's really about making that choice of like, do you want you know, if you break down the components of it, do you choose to do the pieces of it, you know, that are typically aligned with that word? And if so, that's great. That's your choice. I think it's more just like when it's a cultural pressure to conform to that is when it becomes a problem.
Maureen
Totally following you. Yeah. And I think that's I mean, the whole point of this podcast and, you know, the work that I do on Intuitive Style, which is is basically how do we do the work to to listen to that inner voice so that when we get dressed, we are we're choosing things that feel authentic and maybe quiet the external gaze that we push on ourselves because we've seen it from other people. Do you have any kind of key practices or things that you do with clients or even just for yourself to to listen to that inner voice and that inner knowing?
Dacy
One of the first things that I do with clients is that I give them really specific instructions for creating a Pinterest board. And so what I want them to do, and it's a very hard thing to do and you can only attempt it. We can never completely, you know, achieve this. But what I want people to do is to be able to look at an image of an outfit and be able to try to separate whether they like the image esthetically or whether the negative thoughts pile in on top of their esthetic preference, saying, well, you could never wear that or that wouldn't look good on you or that wouldn't fit your body correctly. And so what I really want to establish before we talk about fit or, you know, finding the clothes that fit your body, I really want to establish what you like esthetically aside from those things. And it is, like I said, it's extremely hard to do.
Maureen
And in every aspect of your work, you acknowledge that leaving space for imperfection, right? I don't think that we're striving for perfection. And as a recovering perfectionist myself, I think it's so important to always caveat, like, these are things that we're trying. These are things that we're working towards. And I mean, I don't think that from anything I've heard from you, and certainly I don't think that there that there is a version of being able to completely strip what we visually like from, you know, the things that we have in our head. And, if we want to talk about meditation, it's not about trying to quiet those thoughts necessarily. That could happen over time. But to me, it's more about acknowledging when those voices are there and hearing them and trying to decide for yourself if that inner dialog, whether it's supporting your needs or not. I'm just curious if you have any perspective on on any of that or if meditation is even part of your process.
Dacy
Yeah, I have tried to meditate many, many, many times over the last 30 years, and sometimes I will pick it up and stick with that. And then and then I had kids and it's funny because but I really, really love what you said about that, about just the noticing. And I think I'm going to start using that as well, because you're absolutely right that, you know, that would be really helpful, I think, for people to hear, to say, listen, we know those thoughts are going to come up.
Maureen
The other thing, too, that I've learned through a mindfulness practice is those thoughts that we might have, that we notice they don't necessarily require any action whatsoever. Yeah, just knowing that we are not our thoughts and they're just kind of things that like clouds float through the sky, you know, we're going to have these thoughts and we, especially if we associate our intellect with our thoughts, which I think a lot of Western culture we do that, you know, we are inclined to to take action because I had this thought, oh, that means I need to do something about it. And I think, you know, part of my mindfulness practice is like hearing those thoughts and deciding which ones to act on, if at all.
Dacy
And I just to interject. My business, you know, my Substack is called unflattering. My name is Dacy Gillespie, but my business, the name that my business is under is Mindful Closet. And that is because that mindfulness and that noticing and that what I really think of and and name as a pause is a huge piece, I think, of how we work on all of this. Right? Because if you think about the noticing and then not taking action, as you were just saying, that really can come in handy when people are making impulse purchases or when they are tempted to buy a lot of extra stuff. And so that was definitely a part of the impetus for that name.
Maureen
Well, [switching to] your personal style a little bit. So I'm generally more interested in the why behind how folks dress rather than the what, because getting dresses is so personal as we've been talking about. In broad strokes, how do you decide what you want to buy or wear?
Dacy
That's such an interesting question. [Not to] overuse the phrase. But I do think it's very intuitive for me. I mean, I really it was something that I started paying attention to probably 15 years ago, maybe a little bit more. And what I started paying attention to was just the amount of ease I felt in certain clothes versus others. I really have always loved fashion, and for a long time I worked very hard to try and be the most fashionable person in the room or to be the most well-dressed, or to show that like I knew what was happening on like Fashion Week, you know, runways. And I finally kind of and I will say also that led to me buying a lot of stuff. A lot of it was secondhand and and it wasn't necessarily an issue financially, but there was still a lot of stuff. I mean, a few years before I started my business, I had two extra clothing racks full of clothes in my basement.
And so that process really was what I started personally to kind of that noticing, to figuring out. And at that time, you know, I was in my mid thirties, early to mid thirties, life was pretty chaotic and I just needed I have a lot of anxiety, you know, I have potentially undiagnosed ADHD and what I needed at that time was the most simple and the most comfortable yet also somewhat unique pieces. And so that that was that style evolution. I know. In the list of questions you sent over, you asked about different phases of my style, of which I've had many. Yeah, and most and most people have. But that phase was really very minimalist and it felt really good over time.
I am someone who is aware of trends and aware of just kind of how the fashion landscape is evolving. And it's something that I like to keep up on and I like to kind of be able to visually represent that. I keep up on that, you know? And so. Part of the choices I make are little updates here and there, you know. And it again, it is just fun for me.
And I really, again, want to give permission and to tell everyone else that you can opt out of that if if that's not something you want to spend time and energy on. But for me, again, it's something I enjoy. And so, yeah, it's a combination. And then it's, you know, pieces of my personal style come from the fact that I work from home, that I have two young kids, that I live in the Midwest. I think my style would be very different if I lived in, you know, as I did many years ago in Manhattan. You know, there was a lot more internal pressure and external pressure to make more of an effort to dress up more. And that sometimes resulted in me being less comfortable. And right now, comfort is is a big priority.
Maureen
I love that you're having fun with getting dressed right now. I've gone through different phases where getting dressed is so fun and shopping is so fun. And then I've gone through phases where shopping is anything but fun. It is difficult, it's expensive. You have all these inner voices. I'm assuming that comes up with your clients. Have you had any kind of stories where you worked with someone that was not able to have fun with clothing? And maybe through working together, you were able to see that fun aspects come back if they'd ever had it before.
Dacy
Yeah, I mean, honestly, that happens a lot and it's super fun for me too. I mean, I just got off of a try on session with the client a couple of days ago who and many people say this, they they always say, oh, that wasn't as bad as I thought. That was actually kind of fun. Yeah. And I think it all goes back to that original concept of these need to be things that you like.
I don't know if this has been the case for you personally, but a lot of times what makes getting dress not fun is that you feel so much pressure to please other people. And then also you feel that if you're not doing it in exactly the right way to please, you know, others or to, you know, be trendy, or then there's a lot of feeling bad about yourself.
And so I think another thing that probably makes it a little more fun for my clients is that that they have help, honestly. And, and when I just said that, a lot of people feel bad that they're not what they feel, they're they feel that they're not doing it it meaning, you know, getting dressed.
Well, it's because we've kind of, I think, been conditioned as women, as females to think that this is something we should know innately. And I think it's really, really important to acknowledge that developing your style, ease with getting dressed. All of those things are skills. Just like accounting is a skill, you know, just like playing an instrument is a skill.
I just had someone I talked to the other day and we were just getting started and we kind of reviewed like her past relationship to clothes. And in every phase there was someone dictating what she had to wear. You know, at first it was her mother, then it was maybe, you know, trying to keep up with her friends. And then in when she began working, it was a very clear dress code and, you know, on and on. And so basically, you know, she's in her forties and I said to her, I just want you to be aware that you are in your infancy of developing your style. You have never been able to ask yourself what you want to wear because you've always been told what you had to.
Maureen
That's so powerful. So many people when you think about the skill of getting dressed, aside from the fact that probably people don't even think it is a skill, if they do think it's a skill, it's probably associated with, you know, this person that I see online has that skill and it looks like this and I can't do that. So I don't have the skill of style. And I think, you know, in my journey of of dressing authentically and intuitively is was so much of rejecting my attempts to force other people's dressing on myself. And, you know, I'm also having fun getting dressed again because I stopped assuming that to have style meant that I had to mimic someone else and that, you know, every person has style and every person who gets dressed in the morning or even those who don't get dressed in the morning. That is style. And I think to me, it's about accepting whatever your style is, you know, and that is almost the skill is accepting your personal preferences. It's really that skill of listening and and taking that on. I love to see that, that's something that you, experience frequently with your with your clients.
Going back to the idea of style revolution and you talked about, you know, that minimalist phase. Any other kind of memorable phases? Or if not, what? Where are you today?
Dacy
As I said, I loved I've always loved clothes since, you know, as long as I can remember as a child. And so I'll run through my phases real quickly, because one thing that I do with my clients and it's even a column on my Subtack is we talk about Style Stories and and then every time I run one of my group programs, we talk about style stories. And so my own style story is very fresh in my head.
And what that means to me is just thinking back through what were those phases? What did you feel good and what were the messages you got? And then that to me is all valuable information in knowing maybe why you've made the choices that you have. And then once you can acknowledge those things, you can decide whether you do want to hold on to that thing you were taught or not. So for me, I grew up in a family where my parents were I guess you take, what, countercultural? And they did not care about clothes or decorating our home or would not allow me or my sisters to wear makeup or get our ears pierced. We were like a brown rice household, you know? And so they did not encourage my interest in clothes at all. And I never had. And we also didn't have much money.
I never had the things that the cool kids had.
I never had the things that the cool kids had. So for me that really, you know, has been a lifelong thing of trying to notice, like, do I want this thing because it's like the end thing to have or do I want it because I like it? Then in high school, I really am going to date myself here, but I was in high school in the nineties and I really got super into the grunge thing. So like my favorite outfit I remember was like the black and white striped tights under like a pair of cutoff jean shorts in college I, I dressed pretty traditionally and I was a little bit more dressed up than everyone else.
And then I would say my twenties were really that phase that I mentioned earlier of, you know, buying and trying a lot of stuff and trying to, you know, just really kind of be a little bit out there, honestly with my clothes. Then then came the minimalist phase and, and I'm still in that. I still don't like to have a lot of clothes, but lately I've been introducing more color and a little more.
One thing that is interesting, and I think a lot of people will relate to is, long time, part of my style goal was to look hot.
When I started wearing clothes that were unflattering, there was a whole different level of freedom. I didn't have to hold my stomach and I didn't have to worry about how guys would look at me and, you know and that I've never gone back because that's it feels so much better. Since I kind of gave myself that permission, I've always loved kind of oversize clothes and and things with a little bit more volume in them. And so, yeah, I'd say right now, I'm still minimalist, I'm still pretty classic, but lots of volume. Some blocks of bright colors, but not a lot.
Maureen
Do you have any style or personal goals that you're excited to work towards this year?
Dacy
You know, we're recording this, I think, on January 16th. And to be perfectly honest, I don't think I've really processed 2024 yet. Yeah, you have something that I know about myself that I didn't know for a long time is that I do processing slower than maybe other people. I often need a longer period of time to make a decision. That goes for trying on clothes and and shopping as well. And so, no, actually, at the moment, I don't really I don't really have anything intentionally planned for this year.
Maureen
I think that's super valid, too. You know, so selfishly, I'd love to get your perspective on something that I've been struggling with a little bit, which is wanting to dress authentically for me, which in large swaths of my life I do, but also recognizing that sometimes life is easier or safer when we dress to conform. So, for example, I'd love to stop removing body hair that folks have determined is gross on women. But, you know, also being in a bigger body now, you know, I'm not necessarily in like a state where I'd like to draw more attention to myself in that way. Do you have any recommendations on how to balance that perception of safety with also living authentically? I mean, I'm sure so many people can relate and in different ways.
Dacy
Yes. Gosh, I have so many thoughts and I hope I can remember them all to get them. I mean, the first thing is this is the perfect opportunity for me just to acknowledge and for us to acknowledge that as much as we want to wear just what we like, it's not possible for everyone. It really isn't. And the more marginalized your identity, the harder it is for that to happen because you literally might be punished for it.
You know, if you're a black woman and you don't straighten your hair and that may prevent you from moving up in a corporate environment or, you know, if you're trans and you could literally be susceptible to violence. And so this is that, you know, you bring up just such a good point that sometimes we can't do that.
And in a way, I think this relates back to intuitive eating because one thing I think that people misunderstand about intuitive eating is that you always eat whatever you want, whenever you want. And one thing that they do make a point of intuitive eating is that you still have to plan around your life. You still have to be realistic, right? And maybe financially you can't eat everything you want to eat whenever you want to eat it. Or maybe you're going to be in a meeting over lunch and you need to bring a granola bar, you know, even though that's not what you above all want to be eating then. And so I think that that's what we have to bring in to the idea of intuitive dressing as well as like in an ideal world maybe these are the things I would do, but for me to feel safe right now, it is important for me to do these things.
And again, I to me it comes down to a conscious decision. You're not conforming just because you've been taught that what to do and you've never questioned it. You have questioned it, and you've made a conscious decision to say, I wish I could not do that right now, but again, I don't feel safe enough. And so I'm going to continue doing this.
Another big thought that I have is that sometimes it just takes time. And so I know when my body has changed. There have been years where I didn't feel like I could show my midsection at all because I just didn't feel comfortable. And then after I truly had a couple of years to get used to that body and that belly, it wasn't quite as scary anymore. And then I could, you know, maybe tuck things and have more high waisted stuff showing.
So I think you really have to give yourself grace in that area. And a lot of people will go. So far to the other side that they'll beat themselves up for saying like, Oh, I'm a bad feminist if I don't, you know show my belly or if I don't stop shaving or whatever. And to that, we just have to remember that this is the world we're living in. Of course, we wish it was different, but it's not.
Maureen
I mean, super powerful. I mean, and I totally love the connection back to intuitive eating. I personally, you know, I think a big part of my style authenticity journey that I've been on over the last year really started with working with a dietitian ostensibly for IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, realizing that I could benefit from intuitive eating and home in every size practice through working with that dietitian and, you know, really taking that lens to my closet and saying. Am I putting these clothes on my body because they're serving me? Or am I putting on these clothes because I think I'm supposed to wear them? And so much of that was I'm supposed to wear them because they make me look this certain way that you would be thinner or taller or whatever. And, you know, there are certain aspects to to your point that I still prefer because they are. And the overlap between my personal preference for fit and comfort, but also do serve in some ways the perception that I still, you know, exists within as a female in this country. I think it's just also related and just that ability to to discern. You know, again, going back to meditation and mindfulness, there's a concept of discernment which is, you know, being able to. To know what is and isn't worth your effort and your energy. I mean, I'm sure you could define discernment in a much better way, but just being able to know for yourself what is authentic and what where it's stemming from. And I personally think that comes through a practice of learning to listen and and going back to learning style as a skill, you know, that comes at a time just like accepting your body for what it is right now as it changes. Is is also a skill that takes time.
So just one last question before we wrap up. So understanding that you are a very experienced stylist, as we've talked about. What advice would you give to someone that's trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them other than following you on or. Sorry, unflattering?
Dacy
Oh, did you say Unfancy?
Maureen
Yeah, sorry.
Dacy
No, that's pretty much just a callback. Well, that is so cool. Yeah, but Caroline, whatever her name was with the capsule wardrobe. Yeah, that's so funny. Don't worry about it at all.
Well, I think one thing I just want to, like, free for you personally. I just want to make sure in what I just said that I gave you permission and that you give yourself permission to wear the safe clothes when you need to feel safe. You know, I just want to make sure.
So I think the best thing that people can do is listen to this conversation again. Really everything we've been talking about to mean the first step in any of this and in learning to dress authentically, eat intuitively, you know, make career choices authentically, is that awareness and that noticing And so, you know, take three weeks and just notice when you get dressed, how many things do you reject because you don't like them or how many things do you put back in the closet or throw on the floor because they don't fit? Right. Just starting to notice your preferences. I mean, really, that's where everything starts.
And once you have a little bit of a semblance of that in place, I think the next step is, you know, going on Pinterest, getting some visual inspiration, and it just goes on from there. But again, I really think the most important thing you can do is start to pay attention to what you like, why you like it, what you don't like, why you don't like it. Maybe if you have something you don't like, why on earth did you buy it? You know, I mean, almost maybe journaling a little bit about it every day, like what you notice. Truly, I think that's the the best, most impactful thing you could do.
Maureen
And if I could say one step further, is also just taking the moment to say my preferences as they are are valid. Yes. You know, when you take those pants off because they don't fit. Right. You know, someone else could say those pants fit you just fine. But if you put them on and they're not comfortable and they don't fit according to your standards, that is 100% okay. And that's the end of the story. That's enough. I think that's how that acceptance comes generally, is just listening to those preferences and letting that be valid.
Dacy
Yeah, I completely agree. And and, you know, I really think of the way that I work with clients is not I always tell them I'm not you're not a paper doll. You're not a Barbie. I'm not going to dress you. My job is to kind of be your guide to help you figure out what it is that you like. Because ultimately, that's the bottom line. If I tell you, you should buy something, but you'll never wear it. That's just a waste.
Maureen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's de-influencing right there. Yeah, that's that's the core of ‘under-consumption core’.
Dacy
Oh, yeah. The salespeople at Nordstrom used to hate to see me coming. I was. I was always picking everything apart and saying, you know, need that. Yeah.
Maureen
Oh, gosh, I love that so much. Well, I mean, this has just been so much fun. Some of the most fun I've had in a while, actually. So thank you so much for your time. And. Where can listeners find you?
Dacy
Sure. Well, you know, my Substack is where I'm spending a lot of time. It's dacygillespie.substack.com. Or you can just look for unflattering. And then I'm also I have my business website at mindfulcloset.com and I'm on Instagram at Mindfulcloset also TikTok but who knows where that's going?
Maureen
So again, this was recorded early in 2025. I'll also make sure to include all your links along with this episode. Thank you so much!
Dacy
It was super fun for me, too, Maureen. Thanks for having me.
Closing
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Maureen: And the accounts that you were talking about, were those on social media?
Corinne: Yeah, I was looking at Noihsaf, which used to be strictly Instagram. And, um, there was also, I think there were actually a couple, like, sell/trade slow fashion accounts. Like, I know there was one specifically for Elizabeth Suzanne and maybe a couple others. I was just going to say I was like. I really liked those spaces and I liked the community, but I just kind of felt like I could maybe narrow down a little bit.
Maureen: I wanted to start our conversation today with that topic because I think it can be really hard to understand or explain for someone who isn't familiar with being excluded by secondhand shopping or availability of your size. I think it can be really hard to understand like just how real that issue is and I just wanted to really set the stage. Anyone can struggle with their body image and there's like no hierarchy of who can experience that. But when it comes to actually being able to find the clothing that you want to wear, there are some very real challenges if you live in a larger body. And I was just wondering if you could like share any of your experience with that and, and maybe on the optimistic side, you know, have you been able to set out or have you been able to accomplish any of the goals that you set out to with that platform, being able to, uh, create more of that community that you're looking for?
Corinne: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest and best part of SellTradePlus for me has been the community aspect. Like, I feel like there are so many people that I'm just, like, friends with now, you know? I mean, as... As much as you can be with people from the internet, but um, yeah, and I have, I've also, like, met people in real life through SellTradePlus. Like, I have a little group of friends here that, uh, We'll meet up, like, a couple times a year to do, like, in-person plus size clothing swaps. And a lot of those people I found through SellTradePlus. Um, but yeah, it is, like, a huge challenge. Um... Yeah, it's definitely not over. And I also... This is maybe not exactly what you're asking, but I think there can be so much sort of, like, perfectionism and moralism around, like, shopping in the correct way, like, only buying... Yeah, only buying secondhand or only buying from, like, small ethical businesses. And, like, for me, in my body, like, it's just not always realistic.
Especially because, like, so many of... Those brands, like, you also can't try on, and even if they do offer expanded sizes, sometimes, like, they don't have the budgets to, like, test them on a whole variety of plus-size bodies, so it's just, like... It's a real challenge, and I think the sort of perfectionism aspect, like, doesn't really do us any favors.
Maureen: With that in mind, how, how have you handled that perfectionist mindset? I mean, I know we're all work in progress, but is there anything that you do to navigate that, that perfectionism?
Corinne: I mean, it's a constant challenge. I just try to like give myself grace in the same way that I would like someone, you know, a friend, someone I like and care about. I think we're all just doing the best we can out here. And just knowing, like, we're just doing what we can.
Maureen: Yeah, I feel the exact same way. I mean, I think what I'm trying to do with Intuitive Style is really highlight that there's no right way to dress or participate in slow fashion. There's no right or wrong way to dress, period. I think, yeah, just trying to move away from that perfectionism and I think a lot of that comes from this place of, like, self-compassion, like what you were just saying about, you know, treating yourself like how you might treat a friend totally resonates with me. I think it's a really good way to go.
Corinne: I feel like similar to dieting and diet culture, the thing that that kind of removes from eating and food is the joy element. A lot of we can get from style and fashion and clothes is joy and pleasure and like, fun and novelty. And so if we restrict ourselves in this way of only shopping from the right places or in the right ways….I think we have to leave room for the ability to have fun with it.
Maureen: I'd love to hear more about that because I've listened to quite a few episodes of Burnt Toast by Virginia Sole-Smith. There seems to be a real strong theme of seeing diet culture in so many different aspects of popular culture and I was just wondering if you could share a little bit about kind of how that theme arose, and what, what you think about that?
Corinne: So I also host the Burnt Toast podcast with Virginia Sole-Smith. And I think, I feel like she's really, you know, the expert and the person who has come up with the framing of, like... Is XYZ a diet in a lot of ways? I think it's just like we're talking about kind of like it's, it's the way that perfectionism can kind of like pervade all aspects of our lives. And I think, I sort of think of diet culture as like being under the perfectionism umbrella, like it's kind of like one part of that. And I think a lot of other people have sort of like identified that as being like under an even greater umbrella of like. White supremacy or like capitalism, you know, like all this stuff kind of goes hand in hand. But yeah, I, I, I think for me, it's complicated. It's like, how do you hold it? Multiple true things at the same time. Like, it's true, like, fast fashion is bad for the world. And, like, I do want to be able to, like, have fun with clothes sometimes.
Maureen: Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. I know, and it's so, it's so much easier to write, uh, you know, a post about fast fashion is bad, like, end of story. And I think it's so much easier to write that. And then it's so much more difficult to bring nuance to that. Going back to Substack a little bit, one of... my favorites of your posts on Big Undies, you touch on exclusion within fashion Substack and specifically how the most popular writers on the platform linked to high-end fashion with limited size offerings. So can you talk a little bit more about, you know, how you decided to write that post and, you know, how you feel about it today?
Corinne: Yeah, I kind of sat with that post for a while because I was really feeling like I wanted to like quantify what I was feeling in a way like I was feeling like I'm following all these people who are like talking about really cool clothes I love what they're talking about and like none of it is for me basically. But I was also like, am I just, like, do I just have a really narrow, like, am I just not finding the right people or, you know, like, am I missing the links where they're linking to something above a size 10? And, I don't think I was missing that for the most part. Um, but yeah, I don't know. It's a hard feeling.
Like, I feel like there's a part of me that, like, Just wants to know what cool people like. Like, I just wanna be in the know and like, know what- Other people are doing. And then there's part of me that's like, I want to completely block this out and ignore it. Because like, none of this is for me. So I, again, I think it's just a balance of like, figuring out what what you can take and what you need to sort of, like, ignore.
I don't feel like a ton has changed since I posted that, but I did, I did get like really nice responses for the most part. I’m curious how you feel about that?
Maureen: I mean, reading it was just incredible, and I guess I should clarify, I would say that I'm in like a mid-sized body, so I definitely am not on the extreme end, but they're... I also very much relate, like, if there are three sizes in something, it will not fit me, probably. Um, you know, like, I wear, like, an extra large, like, a sixteen kind of vibe. Yeah. And you know, especially the thing that like drives me absolutely insane, is some brands that I try are too big and then some brands that I try I wouldn't fit into the larger size. And I'm like, make it make sense, because, you know, human bodies, like we're on a spectrum and there's like this big gap between like straight sizing and then plus sizing. And I happen to be right in that gap.
And, you know, it's just trying to get back to with the high end stuff in particular, I really relate to loving that aesthetic. But so many of those brands specifically like the more high end they are, the more restricted their size options are and so. What maybe I would be able to fit into like a fourteen at Gap, for example, I would absolutely not be able to do at like a really high-end brand. All I know is that like my personal experience is that this is hard and and I can't really relate when people are like….the thing that drives me so insane is when I see someone say like, “thrifting: you can find anything you could ever possibly want thrifting.” And I'm like, just because you have found what you want thrifting does not mean that everyone can. And so I think that's one of the things that really drew me to your Substack and podcast is just this idea of like, okay, I might not be able to relate to every experience that you're having. And I would say that shopping for me is probably easier. And, I acknowledge that. But it's also like not as easy as some other people have it so, I don't know I just think it's, it's, it's so confusing and I hate that brands do this. They make us, like, fit ourselves into a box, into a size, and either we're standard or we're plus or we're not, and it's like, I'm not any of those things.
Corinne: What you're saying makes me think of also, like, I feel like now there's all these high-end brands that make, like, really oversized stuff. Like, I wrote about Toteme. I've seen some other ones where it's, like... There's occasionally would be a thing that could fit me, but I'm like, why can you not just make…. you're making huge clothes for really small people, like, why can you not just make huge clothes for huge people? Help me out here.
I do sometimes feel like I am like, In an extreme place because like I'm sort of like a 4X-ish so like often even if a brand stops at like size twenty-four it might not be big enough for me. And then I recommend a lot of stuff that like goes up to 4X and then like I recently got a message from someone who was like, yeah, I'm a 5x and a ton of the stuff you recommend doesn't work and it's just like, oh, there's like so many layers and like. There's always someone that it's harder for and someone that it's, like, a little bit easier for.
Maureen: It's so crazy, too, because ultimately, like, I don't want to be... Like jealous of or in competition with anybody else right and yeah because these sizes are are set up the way they are and they have these. Arbitrary cutoffs. It just feels like so complicated. Yeah. Just so complicated. And then. And I think, um, so Sushmita of Ethical Fat Fashion, she's also talked about wanting to wear things that fit her body, but then also, are we comfortable with wearing something that technically fits us but isn't for us? And I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to that question. And I think it just kind of depends on how you might feel about a particular garment and just, you know, is that on your mind or is it not?
Corinne: Then alternately, like, sometimes even the stuff that is made to fit you doesn't, so it's like, just like a catch-22. Yeah, yeah, so then it's kind of like….
Maureen: I don't remember, did you end up keeping the Toteme shirt?
Corinne: I didn't, and honestly, I sort of regret it. I've definitely, like, had my eye out to see if I can, like, find one used. I think it was like they had, like, extra small, small, medium, or large, and I think I had gotten the medium, so I was like, ooh, I might rather have the large. I also just struggle with the actual cost of that, but.
Maureen: Right, right, right. Yeah, cost. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, I mean, if you could find it on, on, Sell Trade Plus.
Corinne: Yeah. That would be great. Yeah, I definitely, I have my eye out, but I don't know.
Maureen: Let's talk about how you decide what to buy and wear, given these different constraints….At the end of the day, you seem to have a really, like, editorial, high fashion kind of aesthetic, like, I mean, no, am I wrong?
Corinne: Oh my gosh, I don't know. I think that's funny.
Maureen: Oh, okay. Well, correct me. Please, please correct me. How do you view your personal style?
Corinne: No, I'm very flattered. I feel like I have a more like, um... I usually, I think I have kind of like a utilitarian style. I don't know. Yeah, that's true. I really like to be comfortable. I feel like I wear a lot of kind of like oversize-y stuff. Um, but I, I appreciate that.
Maureen: I mean, all I would say is like, you can be very utilitarian and have absolutely no idea what Toteme is. And so I think you might, your personal style, what you wear might be a little more utilitarian, but like from an outside perspective, like what I see you talking about and how you want to be like in the know is I think that sets you apart even if it doesn't necessarily, like, reflect in what you wear. I think that sensibility and how you style [your clothes] and what you're surrounding yourself by, I mean, to me, I see that at least, so.
Corinne: Yeah, that's true. And I do think, like, I'm saying on the one hand, I like... Comfortable clothes. I like utilitarian clothes. And also, like, I would not love to have a closet full of sweatpants, you know? Right. So, like, I think I do kind of, like, go back and forth between, like, comfortable utilitarian stuff and also stuff that feels more... Exciting.
Maureen: What's exciting to you right now?
Corinne: I am always, like, forever unendingly excited about, like, denim shirts. I just, like, cannot. I mean, the, that was the Toteme thing. Like, I….If see a denim shirt, I want it. And that could be a really utilitarian thing or it could be An $800 Toteme jacket. It's one of those things I feel I could probably wear it every day. But yeah, like I know you also just wrote about this sort of like breadth / depth thing. [Referencing Angie Uh’s post “Breadth vs Depth”]. Like, how, how many denim shirts can I have and how can I sort of, like, differentiate between them?
Maureen: How do you decide what to place an order on?
Corinne: Yeah. It's not easy, but... It's not easy… I've been someone in the past who shopped very, like, impulsively. Um, like, I see something, I want it, I have the money in my account, I buy it. And I think I'm trying to sort of like, take more of a broad look like okay yes I have six different denim shirts like I like this one do I need to have it. And I think I'll also just say I think part of that sort of, like, the impulsiveness has to do with, like, being in a larger body and not have- like, I- I think sometimes I just want to try something on, you know, and like, I don't have the opportunity to do that in real life very often, so it's like... Am I buying this just because I want to try it on? And not that that's not a valid reason. Like, I think trying on clothes is important. Like, uh, you know, it's a way of, like, experimenting. But, um, if you're buying it just to try it on and you can't return it, then it's, like, a little bit different.
I try to think about what else I have in my closet that it's similar to or different from. And definitely also think about price. Like, you know, is this a $17 shirt? Is this a $250 shirt? I like to look at what things are made out of. Um, I do try to stay a little bit away from polyester except for athletic wear.
I also like to look at how you wash something. Because I'm like, I'm never gonna dry clean. Just not gonna do it.
Maureen: How do you like your clothes to fit? You know, I think some people are really into, like, kind of slouchy oversized. Some people are into fitted. Uh, you know, there's also, like, the... The feeling aspect of like, you know, you mentioned not liking polyester, you know, of course there's like sustainability questions around that, but then also potentially comfort. Like, how do you think about fit and feel?
Corinne: I definitely like more oversized stuff, especially on top, I think. I really like a baggy shirt. Pants, I can, you know, have a little more flexibility. Um... Yeah, I find a lot of polyester stuff, like, I don't really like the feeling of it. Although there is some stuff, like, I have some polyester... Like, legging, gym wear stuff that I do think feels nice. Like, it's really soft.
Maureen: We love nuance.
Corinne: I know. One thing I do try to think about sometimes when I'm trying on clothes is before I look in the mirror or take a picture of myself wearing it, I will try to think like, how does this feel? Physically, like, how does the waistband feel? How is the fabric soft? You know, just like, try to tune into your body before you think about how it looks. Not always easy. I do think sometimes uh, it's hard to get like an idea of how something will feel after you wear it for a long time.
Maureen: I love that tip and I try to do that too just putting it on feeling it before welcoming the visual aspect. What about that is difficult sometimes you said it's not always easy?
Corinne: I think sometimes how something feels doesn't line up with how it looks. I just did this like Nettle Studio try on and one of the shirts I tried on is it's called the soft volume shirt. It's like just a long-sleeve denim button up. But the sides are cut like really high. So when I first put it on, I was like, whoa, this, this really feels weird. Like, why is the side of the shirt so short? Uh, and I was like, I don't think I like this. But then when I looked at it, I was like, oh, it, I, I like how it looks, you know? So I do think sometimes there's like a disconnect or like, um. Even stuff like tucking in your shirt or something, a lot of people like to do the, like, millennial tuck or whatever. Do you like how that feels? Because I think, I don't think I do, usually. Like, if I start, if I do that, it's usually because I'm like, oh, I think this looks better. And then as soon as I sit down to, like, work at my desk or something, I untuck it.
Maureen: That's so fair. Yeah. So, you were talking about, we were talking about ordering clothes just to try them on and I just want to super validate, like, that is so fair and I do that too. And... Friend of the Pod, Dacy Gillespie posted a whole Substack post about how to bring the dressing room to you through online shopping. And I think I'd already kind of had that mindset of like, that's what I'm doing. For whatever reason, reading her stylist take on that was like very validating to me that. It's totally fair, especially if you can't go to a store and try stuff on that, like, in your size. It's so fair to want to order things just to try them on, especially, if you can return them, as we were saying, it's different if we can't.
You just have to think about that slightly differently, but I don't know, it just, like, to me, it's been such a big process, like, I just ordered, like, four pairs of pants from Banana Republic. And I don't feel great about shopping Banana Republic for, like, so many reasons. Like, the name is, like, really racist.
Corinne: True, yeah.
Maureen: I've gotten to the store and I can't find my size like the biggest that they have in stores of thirty-two and I'm like a thirty-three or thirty-four depending on the brand so I like ordered online mostly because there were so many different types that I could try so many different like cuts in lengths that I wanted to try and I figured that that would work. So, I'm bringing the dressing room to me for that and we'll see what happens. I definitely relate to that, you know, reality and how we have to kind of give ourselves permission to do stuff like that. Otherwise, you know, we can't really... I don't know, there's, we have to just, like, settle, I guess. Yeah. Which doesn't feel good, so. I know, it sucks, there's just not a good solution, and, like, it's not our personal fault.
Corinne: I also have found it really help when like, when I do that, if I order stuff where I'm like, probably not going to keep it all. A lot of times I find it helpful to take photos when I'm trying stuff on because then you can also, like, refer back, like, to be like, oh, yeah, I ordered from Banana Republic last year and I got this size and, like, that's how they fit. Like, even if you send it back, then you have the... The try-on photos?
Maureen: Totally, totally. And then if you wanted to try to find it secondhand, you have a better idea of what size you might be, and it's really hard to, to know that, especially when so many of the platforms that we can buy secondhand on are non-returnable. Although I guess. Totally. Erika Veurink from Long Live keeps saying that most things on eBay are refundable.
Corinne: Yeah. I have seen that, I have noticed that some stuff on eBay has, like, there's usually a return policy listed, so at least you know whether it's returnable or not. I haven't experienced that yet, but maybe, maybe this year.
Maureen: Let's talk about how your style has evolved over the years. Have you gone through any memorable phases?
Corinne: Ugh, I read this question and I was like, I really want to think of a memorable face. You can say you don't have any. I really can't. I couldn't think of one. I mean, I feel like they're... Maybe like memorable, like clothes I've had at certain times in my life. But I feel like I never had like a like goth phase or something. Although I wish I did.
Maureen: It’s not too late!
Corinne: I know, thank you, yes. I was also thinking, like, when I was really young, like, I don't know, eight or something, I, like, I... I picked out like pink tights and like these like beige or cream colored like denim shorts and I was really excited about that look so.
Maureen: Actually, that kind of reminds me, I've seen, I mean, I personally hate. And I know that you talk about tights actually quite a bit on Big Undies. I don't know if I'm, if I'm mistaken, but I would just love to talk more about like tights and especially like, you know, hearing that that's something you wear as a kid and then You know, when I think about that more utilitarian aesthetic, I don't associate tights. So like, how do those fit together for you?
Corinne: Yeah, I mean, I should say I feel like I actually don't wear tights now. I think on Big Undies, someone wrote in and was, like, kind of looking for plus-size type Rex.
Maureen: Gotcha.
Corinne: I do also think, I think... Like, people are wearing tights in a much cooler way than they were when I was wearing tights. Like, I really like the, like, tights under jeans thing where then you have, like, a colored sock. I don't really wear dresses now, so I don't have a lot of tights. But I did like tights for a lot of my life and I think part of it is kind of like sensory like the slight compression and also like but no, like, restriction. Like, it's easy to move around in tights, you know, like, leggings kind of. Um, but I know a lot of people hate how they feel too, so...
Maureen: Yeah, and our preferences can change over time. Yeah, that's fair. Okay, yeah, I, I, I did, I remember you saying that you, um, you don't really wear dresses anymore and, you know, fair. I feel like dresses are, like, not super cool right now.
Corinne: Oh, interesting. I mean, not in the way that they were, like, in the 2010s. I feel like everybody was wearing…there’s been so many different variations, but I feel like... A cool dress today to me is like a 90s dress, like a mini dress or something, or maybe still like a slip dress for some people, but like. A lot of people were wearing, like, boho kind of dresses. And then, I don't know, I just feel like there was, like, a 10-year period where it was, like... I was wearing a dress every single day or like just dresses were like everywhere and I feel like everybody on like fashion Substack these days is like big pants. I don't know. I, I, do you, am I wrong? Please call me out.
Corinne: I don't know if you're wrong. I think, I feel like I see a lot of those kind of like frilly collared dresses on like Instagram. True, true. Yeah, I also feel like I haven't quite untangled whether for me, like, it's like, is not wearing dresses like an age thing. Like, I'm, I think I'm older than you. I'm thirty-nine. But like whether as I've gotten older I've just felt less like inclined towards dresses or whether it's like a gender thing like I feel like I've headed in a more like androgynous fashion direction or If it's like something else, like a practical thing, like it just doesn't feel as, like I feel less like safe having my. Lower half exposed or something. But I thought a lot about, like, is there a dress I would wear? And I feel like I do often, like, I like... Looking at dresses, I'm always like, oh, that's so cool. But it's like the would I wear it? Probably not. So and then yeah, I like this theory that maybe dresses are just less cool to everyone or to like fashion people.
Maureen: Living in the Bay Area, uh, it's not super functional to wear a dress because it's, like, really windy. And probably over the summer I'll wear dresses, but, like, in San Francisco, there's seldom occasion where a dress makes sense. I was just talking about this with my co-worker yesterday. It's like, it's just not really like a vibe, you know, you just legs are always cold, but it's like too sunny to wear black tights for me. Complicated thoughts on dresses. The only dress that I have on my maybe wish list but I probably won't buy is that little utility dress from Noble.
Corinne: Oh, yeah.
Maureen: Do you know that one? It's so cute. It's so cute. Yeah. But I, I probably am not gonna buy it. It's just like, I like it. And if I was going to wear a mini dress, it would be that, but I'm probably not.
Corinne: Well, they do have, they have like a similar looking jumpsuit, right?
Maureen: They do. You're right. You're right. I feel like it's doesn't come in a the right inseam for me. They, they run on the kind of shorter side and I just, I hate when like my entire ankle is exposed. I guess I could wear tall socks, but like…
Corinne: You could wear tights under it.
Maureen: Yes, you're so right.
Corinne: Yeah. Um, I saw this, I feel like it was like this fall Misha and Puff. Do you know that brand? They're, like, a knitwear brand. They had, like, a long, I think it was, like, wool. It was almost, like, a coat, like, of, like, maxi length dress that just looked like a long wool coat and I was like, oh, I do kind of like that. But they don't make my size, so...
Maureen: Oh, no, I thought you were gonna say it was inclusive. I was like, I'm so excited.
Corinne: No, I just saw the photos and was like, I will save that to think about. Yeah, yeah, like, uh, can I find this in my size something?
Maureen: So, we're recording this towards the start of 2025. I realize that we're almost at the end of... February, but it feels like this last two months has been like a minute and also like a year. So do you have any style or personal goals that you're excited to work towards this year?
Corinne: Yeah, I did kind of make some commitments to myself at the beginning of the year around like fashion stuff. I'm trying to track my clothes buying. Like, I'm not saying I'm only gonna buy this many things or I'm only gonna spend this much money, but I would like to have a better idea of how many things I am buying or how much money I am spending. Just cause like we talked about in the past, I've just sort of been like, if I want it and I have the money, I'll buy it.
Also, I'm not using Amazon that's, I mean, I was not buying clothes on Amazon, but um, yeah, this year I'm just trying to sort of cut some of those big corporations out, as I think a lot of people are. Um, and I'm also trying, I'm trying not to buy multiples of things. I think one thing I realized is... I don't need to be doing that. Both the thing where I'll, like, I'll do, I'll both buy an exact another version of something I like or I'll buy this, that thing in, like, a different color. Um, and I'm just trying to, like, be like, it's okay if you can't wear your most favorite pants right now because they're in the wash. Like, they'll be out of the wash in two days or you can wear them dirty. Because I feel like in the long term it's like you always end up getting rid of one or both of them so and yeah just also in terms of that like depth versus breadth thing like I think it's a little more satisfying to have something else.
And then the other thing that's maybe a sort of longer term thing is I'm sort of trying to think about, like, redoing my closet infrastructure.
Maureen: Ooh!
Corinne: I live in a very old house that has very small closets and... Right now I just have a metro rack which is like a wire kitchen storage rack shoved into the closet and I like fold everything on there and It's not a good system. So longer term, I would like to think about, like, having someone build shelves or put in some kind of, like, hanging rack. But I'm not, like, 100% sure that'll happen this year. But definitely something I would like to...
Maureen: Yeah, what's holding you back? That sounds awesome.
Corinne: I mean, money.
Maureen: Okay, fair. Yeah, fair.
Corinne: On the one hand, money. Like, I have no idea what something like that would cost. And I also, like, I kind of want to, like... I feel like I've been in the process of kind of like getting rid of some stuff that I've been holding on to so I kind of want to finish the clear out before I start restructuring things but who knows when that'll happen.
Maureen: What are the kinds of things that you're wanting to let go of? Well, I think I just have a lot of stuff that I wear very rarely and I don't know. Stuff. Clothes. This is something I've like been intending to write about that I haven't written about yet, but I bought a couple of months ago, I bought like a garment rack, like a rolling one. And I've kind of like stuck it in the corner of my room and then when I pull something out of my closet that I'm like, I don't think I wear this, then I'll put it on that. And then it's like, I, it's very, I can see it. And so if I'm like, oh, no, I actually do want to wear it, then I'll just wear it. But otherwise, then I have this rack of stuff that I'm like meaning to get rid of.
And then it feels like the stuff that's in my closet is more like the stuff I'm wearing a lot. Yeah. I also saw, um, I think on Instagram, Marielle Elizabeth. Do you know her?
Maureen: I don't think so.
Corinne: Okay, she's like a amazing plus size influencer person but she has been talking about uh, how she'll put like she'll pick out, like, a number of things to have in her closet and then pack everything else away. Like, sometimes it just feels like you have too much stuff in your closet. So, having, like, kind of, like, rotating... little capsules of stuff you're wearing at a time and then refreshing it at some point.
Maureen: Yeah, totally. That's something I do. I think it's, I think it's great just having fewer things, especially, you know, having only things that fit. I mean, that's just a good place to start. But then also the things that are inspiring you right now, or to your point, pulling out the things that are not inspiring you and seeing if maybe, uh, looking at them more helps clarify. That makes sense to me.
Corinne: I have, like, a black turtleneck and I'm like, that's one of those things that seems like everyone should have. Right. But I'm also never wearing it. So, like, why? I don't need to have this just because I think it's, like, a good thing to have.
Maureen: Fair. Fair. What advice would you give to someone who's trying to build a wardrobe that feels authentic to them?
Corinne: That's a good question. I guess my advice would be like, try to think about it as a journey or like, it's always going to be changing. Like, you're never going to get to a point with your closet where you have everything you want and need nothing. I think that's okay. I think just having some acceptance around the fact that, like, it's gonna change, like, your style will change, trends will change, your body will change, and it's, it's good. That's how it's supposed to be. It's a journey.
Maureen: That's such a good answer.
Corinne: I want to know what your answer is.
Maureen: Oh, my answer! Oh, man. Um, my answer is, yeah, I mean, same. I try not to let this come across too much on my Substack and on the podcast, but I'm kind of leaning towards a minimalist. And so fundamentally, I think we need less than we think we need. I'm not trying to push that agenda if it doesn't fit for other people, but you know, sometimes we don't know what we want until we have it. And you know, I am like, I've had one drink of alcohol for the last like three months and I didn't know that I wanted to be sober until I started and I had, I had a glass of wine the other day and I was like, I don't want that anymore. And, you know, I feel the same thing with, with having fewer pieces of clothing. I really thought that abundance was bringing me joy. And then when I gave myself permission to really reduce down to a much smaller number of things. I was like, this is so much better.
So, sometimes we don't know what we want until we have it, and I think to your point about doing that kind of like capsule-y thing, uh, or even just pulling out a couple things. You know, if those things that you pull out that you want to wear every day are working really well, that'll be very clear that, you know, that lack of abundance isn't necessarily a bad thing. On the flip side of that, if you do try to reduce down to a really small capsule wardrobe and the pieces are completely wrong, that will make it extremely difficult to follow through with. And so I don't think it's like a silver bullet. I don't think it's always appropriate or the best thing to do. But personally, I found fewer things to be more clarifying. Than a whole bunch of things that I had thrifted or whatever, so.
Corinne: Yeah, that really makes, that makes so much sense to me. I've definitely experienced that with, like, traveling sometimes, like, I get back. Yes. And I'm like, wait, why do I have, like. It's just more laundry, you know, like why do I have so many clothes? I just have to wash them all the time.
Maureen: Yes, that is legitimately one of my favorite benefits is that I do a load of whites and a load of darks once a week. And, I do my husband's laundry. I promise he does things for me too, but I like doing our clothes. Because if he messed up my clothes, our relationship would not survive. So I do the laundry. But yeah, I mean, I don't have to do so much of it because I have a few number of things. So that's my take.
Corinne: I love that.
Maureen: Well, this was really fun. Thanks for coming on the pod and where can listeners find you? So you can find me on Substack. My Substack is called Big Undies. You can also find me sometimes on Burnt Toast by Virginia Sole-Smith, which is also a Substack and you can find in podcast players. I’m on Instagram at Selfie Faye. Faye is my last name. F as in Frank, A-Y. I think that's it.
Maureen: Well, thank you. Uh, this was so enjoyable and yeah, I just, I really appreciated getting to talk to you and I hope we can catch up again.
Corinne: Definitely. It was really fun. Thank you.
Outro
Thank you to our guest, Corinne Fay, for joining us today. Thank you to everyone listening at home, and if you enjoyed this episode, please consider Liking, sharing, or subscribing so that you don't miss any future episodes. We do have some pretty exciting guests coming up.
Next week's episode features Laura De Valencia Kirk from La Deeply Shallow here on Substack. I really think you guys are going to love what she has to say and what she has to share.
In case you missed it, Intuitive Style is now available via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Substack, and select episodes are also on YouTube so that you can interact with this podcast in whichever way is most natural to you.
Yeah. So when I created La Deeply Shallow when I started it, it was actually as as a Substack. It started a long time ago, about 5 years ago. But then I kind of abandoned it because I wasn't really sure where it was going, and it wasn't really about fashion. It was more about what I was researching as part of my MFA, as an artist. And then last year I just had this impulse to come back to it and write, and I think there was a lot of thoughts that were kind of condensing, and they finally found like an avenue, and that was La Deeply Shallow. In La Deeply Shallow, I bring to the surface the the importance of fashion which has historically been considered as a feminine topic, and hence not important, you know, as usual. So I honor fashion. I try to demonstrate how transcendental it can be, not only for showing who we are, but also to construct ourselves in the process of getting dressed, which I think it's the core or the most important aspect of it, and my approach is very intuitive. I write every week. I tend not to have things in storage, for, you know, several weeks ahead, which I probably should, because it would be, it would make my less anxious, but it also keeps me on my toes, and writing every week helps me be attuned to the conversation. What's going on, and also how clothes feel in my body. So, it kind of helps me be more present. That's the whole concept. And I think I hope that that's being transmitted and people feel it, and it helps them also be more attuned to to their own act of getting dressed and daily.
Maureen
Yeah, I mean to your hopes—absolutely. There's something kind of almost magical about the way that you write… It's so like, deep and complex, but somehow effortless at the same time, which, of course, I don't mean that you're not spending time and effort on it, but just as a reader, it's so easy to engage with. I just feel this almost like kind of lightness on very complicated topics, and specifically the way that you incorporate social and political commentary into your pieces. I mean, it's just very like it's kind of full circle to hear that when you started the column, it wasn't even about fashion at all, and I can see that, it’s about fashion, but it's about so much more. How do you decide when to incorporate this kind of commentary versus just play with with clothing?
Laura
Well, I think it's all woven into who I am, because I think fashion is not just about the clothes is all kinds of things, and it probably has something to do with the fact that I have multiple interests. And I listen to all kinds of political discourse from all sides of the spectrum, philosophy, lectures podcasts all while I scroll on The Real Real! It's something I do. And I don't know if it's probably a good mental image of how my mind works and how I am wired, and I think most of us are multidisciplinary. We have lived so many lives, we are multifaceted, we, we contain multitudes. And, so, I think that that is just going to transpire in how I write.
There's another aspect of it that simplicity or that lightness that you talk about. I think it's from the fact that I'm always translating, because I'm always, I tend to think in Spanish, and then I translate. So I think there's in that translation. I'm trying to understand my thoughts. But I'm also trying to find a way to be legible in a different language, and I think that also makes me be a little bit more. Just clear. I guess the fact that my language is not as sophisticated in English, also makes it be a little bit more clear.
Maureen
I highly doubt that. [Editors note: I meant that I think her work in English is so sophisticated!]
Laura
I don't know. Maybe that I would love to, you know, to figure out what it is. But I I make a big effort to make myself legible. And it's immigrant experience, and of constantly speaking in a different language….And then, yeah, there's always political commentary, and I don't try to do it. I've always made an effort not to be an activist. I respect activists, and I respect what they do. But I think ever since I became an artist, I understood that I wanted to connect more than lecture or impose a point of view, because I am in a point of my life where I'm trying to understand a lot of things. And I'm trying to think with people and think out loud. And I think when I adopt an activist voice, or when people adopt activist voices, there's kind of like a moral superiority or virtue signaling that it's kind of off-putting and prevents that connection that I'm trying to, that I'm trying to create with my audience.
Maureen
Incredibly well said. And I think again, it's really coming across, you know. I feel that that I'm able to engage with your work. You're allowing for a conversation. And, to your point, a lot of think pieces about slow fashion or or activism generally kind of come in with authority. As you know, ‘this is the way it is’, and ‘this is the way we should be thinking.’ And I think what you do so expertly is that you show that process, and you talk about how you got to where you are, and with all the complexity, and you make space for people to agree or disagree with you and have a different experience. And I think that's part of what's so magical about your writing is that I feel like you're bringing people closer rather than pushing them away. To your point, I almost think it's more successful in the way that it's a conversation. It's about connecting rather than being right. It's great to hear that's a strategic thing. It wasn't just necessarily something that happened. But it's a choice that you're making. And it's really happening.
Laura
Yeah, I mean, and it's I think it's also how I conduct myself. I try. As I said before, I try to listen to different points of view on the same issue, and and try to understand where people are coming from. And, I sometimes I may not agree with with a certain side of the spectrum. I mean, that's fine. We're all trying to find the truth, but I don't think I have the revealed truth yet. So that's why I feel like I am still in that exploration.
It's not that I don't assume positions. I think I have certain positions, but I don't think that my ideas and my positions are my identity. I'm always trying to be open to learning new things and understand where people are coming from, and and I'm glad that that comes across, as as you say.
Maureen
Definitely, I think that's why so many people read your posts every week!
Switching a little bit into your personal style…. I'm becoming more interested in the why behind how people dress rather than what we're wearing. In broad strokes, how do you decide what to buy or wear, or what not, to buy or wear?
Laura
Yeah, I was thinking about this. This was a great question, and I'm glad that you asked me. I think I'm 100% committed to proportions. I can see some things that I adore in the store online, whatever. And but if the proportions do not work for me, I tend not to wear it in a non aesthetic dimension. I have become sharper at questioning why I like something I grew up in in a very small town with a lot of class bias. And so that class bias was easily reflected in how people dressed. And, it's very tacit. It's not talked about. But, you kind of absorb all that bias and all this, all the signals and and the signs and and the hidden messages that are part of the clothes, and and it takes time, and for me, moving to a different country to realize how much I wasn't questioning where my preference for certain items. What's coming from that bias? And, it's kind of like a little bit of deconstructing to construct again, and to kind of like. Try to mold yourself to who you really are.
And and and yeah, so I think to your question, how do I decide what I wear? What I don't wear? There's definitely an aesthetic dimension. As I said, proportions to me are key. And then also a more non-aesthetic, more personal questioning of Where why do I look this? Why do I like this? And why don't I like it? Is it because something that was instilled in me, or is it because I generally do not do not find it appealing?
Maureen
Hmm, hmm. Yeah, that's such a great question. And I think almost a lifetime question is, how do we decide why we like what we like?
Are there any like specific examples that come to your mind as far as like maybe something that you used to like that once you kind of drilled into it, you realized it doesn't resonate as much now, or vice versa, something that you used to not really appreciate. But now over time, you appreciate more?
Laura
There was a post where I talked about the ruffles, and this kind of very tropical Caribbean chic dresses, with florals and ruffles, and all these things, and at the moment, and back in 2014, I really liked them, and I wore them, and then I kind of rejected them. I felt like they were not part of me. Why was I wearing this? I am more minimal. I've always tend to be to less, to be more masculine and what I find sexy.
But then I realized that there was a lot of bias in in the florals, they are considering where I come from. It's like something, too. Floral is too ‘out there,’ ‘too much,’ too…Just not very elegant. I started peeling the onion on ‘what is elegance? What is chicness? And why, when I like the florals? Why did I like them in 2014. And why didn't I like them before or after? And then I realized that I like the florals and the ruffles and all of this style of dressing, because it was it was being imposed by designers that were regarded as exclusive that were in vogue. And so I was like, oh, so florals are good when they are proposed by certain designers, but are not good. When I see someone on the street in Barranquilla wearing them.
So that was that was a kind of like a revealing moment for me. And there are so many other examples. The cork platforms, which are a staple in my hometown. The jeans without pockets, on the back. Very stable staple in Colombia. Sweatpants. Huge example. Oh, because I'm going to appear lazy, or that I gave up? What is that coming from? Oh, Chanel designer said it. Oh, but is he right? Is there a racial component to that statement? Is there a class component to that statement? So there's a lot of things that I believed were mine that were not mine, and I'm still in the process to peel the onion. It's an ongoing journey.
Maureen
I love, that “there were a lot of things that were mine that were not mine.” I love the empowerment that I hear, which is like we try on different identities. We try on different aesthetics. We take in all these influences, and you know what I just heard in that is, we can take those things off, too. And we can say, what of those things that I've tried out or internalized, how can I let go of those? What a lesson! What a lesson! And it doesn't just apply to clothing as we've been talking about. It applies to so many different kind of perspectives.
I don't know if you're aware of this. I just thought of this example like the Roman, like statues and and columns. And what's the word like? Busts used to be like super colorfully painted. Did you know about this?
Laura
Yes! Great book called Chromophobia. I don't know if you you heard of it. I recommend it because that one also opened my eyes a lot to color. It's pretty much how this whole minimalistic movement instilled in us the idea that neutral colors and muted palettes and subdued silhouettes were elegant, and whatever was colorful was not. And there's a huge, bias instilled in that statement. The book Chromophobia. I think it's David Bachelor. He wrote it, and he talked about Le Corbusier. And a lot of of these designers, that kind of like created these this paradigm in a way. But yeah, the Roman statues is a great example. We find them beautiful and elegant, and they're white, but they they were not white, they they used to be colorful, and the eyes had color, that's where it comes from!
Maureen
My personal style is a bit of a counterpoint, right? One of the things that I hear from you is that we're interrogating where our influences come from, but we're not inherently rejecting them.We're using discernment. And so, my personal aesthetic is on the somewhat more minimal side. Part of that also has to do with what colors actually look best on my body, and when I wear bright colors you don't see me, [my face] disappears. And so that's totally fine, like, I'm neutral about that. It's fine, but I think if I did have a different complexion, if I had like more extreme features, maybe my aesthetic would be different. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with having an aesthetic that that makes sense with my body, and allows my face to be seen as opposed to just my clothing.
Laura
And I think that's where the extreme discourse tries to, like I want to say, tell you what to do. Oh, you have to wear color. But what if I don't want to wear color? I already know that, here's a class bias. There's there's a race bias, but I still don't like color on me, and that happens to me as a Latin woman a lot. Because I have questioned myself why I don't wear more pattern. Why, why do I stick to this? Silhouettes like the pants, like what I'm wearing today, just pants and and a sweater simple, minimal. And and I ask myself these questions, and I say, Well, there's something in my history that determined this, which is my Catholic upbringing, and how I saw my mom getting dressed.
Oh, you have to wear color. But what if I don't want to wear color? I already know that, here's a class bias. There's there's a race bias, but I still don't like color on me, and that happens to me as a Latin woman a lot. Because I have questioned myself why I don't wear more pattern. Why, why do I stick to this? Silhouettes like the pants, like what I'm wearing today, just pants and and a sweater simple, minimal?
My mom was always dressed in pants and a bottom down shirt to go to the office, and she dressed differently than all the women in Barranquilla, who dressed like Sofia Vergara, and and Shakira, and they were always full of makeup. So, I grew up with this model with, you know, my mom. And, so I try to trace where my taste for this kind of clothes came from. I interrogated it, but I feel like when people tell me you should wear more color. I have the certainty that it's my choice to dress. The way I dress is not coming from that class bias or that color, or that it's coming from my history, from my mom, from my heritage, from an influence I had as a child.
And there's another thing that it's the this expectations that Latin women need to dress certain way, or they need to look certain way, or you don't dress Latin enough. Well, what does that [look like]? What what is that? What is what is Colombian aesthetic? What is Latin aesthetic? Is it something you saw on the TV? Is it that you created from seeing Salama Hayek in movies? Because it's not a monolith. Being a Latin woman is so many things, including what I am choosing to do. So it's important to question where our choices are coming from. But when we make peace with those answers. We don't need to try to change them, just to appease certain discourses, such as the class or the race discourse. Because in your case you don't like coloring you, and it doesn't mean you're racist or classist, or that you're trying to, I don't know. Assert your whiteness. It's just simply that you don't like how you look on color. And that's totally okay. It's an aesthetic choice. And we are free to make those aesthetic choices. So it's complex.
Maureen
I mean, this is so validating, and I wasn't going into this expecting that. But you know, at the end of the day, I think sometimes when we are interested in fashion, we make fashion mean so much, and it does. It means a lot. But it doesn't mean everything. And, there's a two-dimensionality to sharing images of our clothing online. And what we're wearing. But when we're out in the world like that's where we show how we respect other people. That's where we show that we aren't trying to assert our whiteness. Or, maybe that we dress a certain way that would say otherwise, but when we act out in the world we are like. It's just one aspect of this, like three-dimensional personality. And, whatever I try to write, and I certainly see it in your writing is this this nuance and multiplicity and dimensionality? So I resonate with that so much.
Laura
That's so profound way you just said, Yeah, clothes are. Because I started saying, I want to talk about how fashion is transcendental and important and valuable, but it's also not sometimes. Well, it's also not. It's also fun and play, and there's room for that. It's not the cure for cancer. It's also. But when I'm in the worst moments I getting dressed is what makes me keep going. You know, it can have very powerful effect on the Psyche, but at the same time we need to recognize that it's not everything about a person. As you say, we act in the world, and that's also part of who we are. It's not just what we're wearing.
Maureen
Oh, I feel like we could talk about that for a lifetime. Let's keep writing!
Going back to how you decide what to wear, how does body awareness influence the way you dress? Are there specific textures, fits, or styles? I know you talked about proportion. So maybe talking about that in a little bit more detail, or anything else [around] how you want to feel in your clothes.
Laura
Okay, so, I think I have always leaned or oversized silhouettes, as I mentioned. And I I do recognize that I used to dress in oversized clothes to kind of like conceal certain parts of my body I didn't like. But, now that I am more comfortable with how my body looks. I still dress pretty oversized, but it's not to conceal my body necessarily, but I see it more as an act of sculpting my body, and I think there's immense freedom in sculpting the body through fabric, you know. Play with shapes, elongate, shorten, make the the make the the shoulders wider. I mean all those tricks. It’s almost like like a like a ceramicist playing with clay. You know it's it's not necessarily a quest for flattering. It's more like an intuitive activity that I enjoy a lot. For example, right now, I was thinking that I really love everything that has like that drape like the silk. But I also love having the the scuba material that makes me, that is just static. I mean, I love playing with that kind of thing, too, because it those are different tools to kind of like sculpt and create a cocoon or or there's a writer, she used to be Man Repeller, she created this system of shapes, the palm tree, and and I love how it's not the fruit system from, you know the nineties. It's just like how you can dress to like to highlight certain parts of your body, and it's not for ‘flattering’. I repeat, it's just more like a sculpting exercise! And I really enjoy that as an artist I enjoy it. I know it sounds cliche, but I do see the body as a canvas.
[Editor’s note: Laura is referring to fellow Substack writer, Elizabeth Cardinal Tamkin’s Silhouette System™ and I am now DEEP in this philosophy.)
Maureen
I don't think it's cliche at all, actually. And I think, it's just true, if that's how you approach getting dressed. If that's authentic to you, that’s it…that's the whole thing. And I think that's so cool.
I'm certainly been on a journey myself where I used to really dress for like ‘flattering’ and, my priority was to kind of dress in a way that was like made me a sexual being for other people's like understanding of me. I'm really playing now with, the female gaze, and all I keep thinking about is the types of silhouettes that I want to wear now are so different. And and I love them, and I would not have worn them in the past. I love making space for that like change, and that transition, and being open to changing my mind and being open to things that I thought weren't for me. And it's just really fun. To your point, like, I just got this sweater vest. I cannot stop talking about it. I'm so sorry for everyone, but it's got like kind of a nice. It like makes my shoulders look kind of broad in a great way, and then it like kind of cuts in.
So it just creates like such a cool shape over whatever I put it on with, and like to some degree. Yes, I'm still accentuating some degree of like hourglass, which is fine like I don't care. That's fine, but in so many other ways it's very much not for the male gaze. And so it's just kind of like this wonderful balance of the two, where it's a preferred silhouette, but also kind of more eccentric.
Laura
That was when you talk about the shoulders, I feel like shoulder pads to me are huge, and I hate when they go out of style. I still wear them even when they're out of style, because I think they're so powerful in that interplay of shape. So yeah, those are, those are great tools and resources in in my toolbox.
Maureen
I'm curious what you think about trends just really quickly…I'm ‘pro’ trend. I think we wouldn't be able to make progress. We wouldn't be open to changing our minds about things. And I think I see a lot of discourse about like ‘trends are bad. It's just marketing.’ And it's like, Okay, yes. But also…Can we see the beauty and trends? I don't know. I think one of the hardest things about like when a shoulder pad goes out of style isn't necessarily that they're not cool anymore, but it can be harder to find them. What do you think about trends generally?
Laura
I'm with you, I think trends are a great opportunity to get out of our comfort zone to explore. I have delved into trends, and some of them. It's not that I regret them, but I just realized that they don't fit my lifestyle, or I'm not reaching for for them. Others really stick with me and stay forever like shoulder pads. I mean, I started wearing shoulder pads when Dries Van Noten did this collection, like 10 years ago, and he showed the shoulder pads with a striped shirt, and I recreated it. I didn't buy it. I took a shirt. I cut it, and I put shoulder pads, and I'm like, ‘Oh, my goodness, this is great!’ like in terms of proportions. It creates like this super cool thing that I never would have….I thought it was so 80s, and I discovered something that that's that stick with me. And I think trends are just as I say, a good avenue to discover new things, to get out of our comfort zone, to question or aesthetic. Where is it coming from? And I I think there are like low stakes ways to try trends, and we don't need to jump on all of them. But if you do, that's fine, too.
Where you are in life, in the twenties, you should really try trends. I mean, you should really try everything. Your thirties, maybe you start figuring out, okay, this trend worked for me. What was it that I liked about the trend? Was it the silhouette? Was it how practical it was? And then in your forties you kind of start figuring it out, and you have more discernment. You can tell, okay, this trend is really not going to work for me, but you know I try the the jelly shoe. And I loved it. I think it's so fun. It's just ironic, and I live in Florida. So it's not very ironic for me, but I still make it ironic, how I pair them.
And then there's some other trends, like I tried leopard. And I like it when I wear it. But I don't reach for it that often as I would like, and I don't know what it is. I mean it's it's not. It could be a bias. Oh, I think it's too much, and it's not something I should wear to pick up my kids. Why, what like question? You know, what’s that story?
But yeah, I think trends are fine. Yes, I do not agree with certain influencers pushing trends. In a way that it's hidden, like. If you're if you're gonna tell me to wear this. I also want you to tell me that you have a partnership with the brand. I want you to tell me that you invested in the company that produces the item that you're trying to sell as the new thing. I think that kind of transparency I miss sometimes. But you know, it's not against the trend. It's against the way marketing is conducted, right?
Maureen
And not all trends were necessarily created, equally like some trends are from a brand. But you could also say that some trends probably come from individual people, individual designers. People in high fashion world that are putting things out there and getting people thinking about things in new ways.
Laura
They are creative people. They're designers. And it's their job to think in the future and think about. I mean, it's it's kind of like a way of appreciating their effort to to innovate. So imagine if we think about if we don't care about trends, then I don't think there would be that incentive to, to innovate and to think differently, and and to try and create new things. So as an artist, I think it would be a little bit contradictory for me to not appreciate trends, and what's new.
Maureen
Very fair point. So we talked a little bit about your style evolution with, you know, the 2014 liking florals and then moving away from that. But are there any like memorable phases that you've gone through with your style.
Laura
Think my style has remained pretty consistent. I with, you know, deviations as usual. I think my favorite stage. I think it's my forties, for sure. I think it all comes with the confidence of age, and just not caring so much, but also caring a lot just like you have a little bit more information.
Maureen
Yeah, more information, I agree with that.
What personal or style goals are you working towards this year, if any?
Laura
I think my main goals was is to continue tracking my purchases, and not for self-flagellation, not to feel guilty. It's really to see what I wear, and what was worth spending money on. To me the only way for me to really see what I need. What if there's a gap in my closet is to not shop. Wearing my clothes. Then I can start identifying. Oh, I've been wearing this sweater for all this time, and maybe I need a new sweater because this one is not doing what I wanted to do, because I want a V-neck instead of, you know things like that.
But you only identify those needs when you actually wear your clothes versus just like getting new things and getting distracted with new things and not wearing what you already have. So I'm shopping. I wouldn't say I'm gonna low-buy. I mean, I'm still shopping, but I'm a lot more aware of of what I have in my closet, how to style it different ways to style the same things for different occasions. The whole idea of the bi-furcated closet, how to apply it in my daily life?
And also, I'm saving money because we have projects at home that we want to do. We want to remodel our kitchen. We want to remodel our bathroom, and also I have two daughters, and they also require a lot of clothes like the grow, the bigger they get the more they they require. So it's it's a new expense kind of like versus when they were toddlers. So sometimes I feel like, Oh, if I buy this $500 purse than my daughters cannot get this. So it's kind of like a trade off. So it's both, for you know the economy of my house. And also just be more assertive with with my purchases.
Maureen
I love that idea of being assertive with purchases. That's such a great way of talking about it. And I'm gonna say that, too!
Friend of the podcast, Emily Grady Dodge. She just put up a post was a good reminder about this book I'm Going to Teach You How to Be Rich, and I heard an interview with the author years ago, and then promptly forgot about it.
Basically it's this idea of, if you spend your money on the things that you care about, and don't spend your money on the things you don't care about, you can live a more rich fulfilling life. It's not about learning how to be a millionaire. It's about learning how to live life richly and fully, and the things that you care about or cared about. And so I think when someone does do a low buy or no buy, or is paying attention to what they're spending their money on when it comes to getting dressed. That's part of this whole effort to live fully and and feel, you know. That's such a great way to say it.
Laura
Trade-offs. Resources are not unlimited.
Maureen
Yes, trade-offs!
So, we're coming towards the end. What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?
Laura
I would say, documenting your outfits. Not for performance, not necessarily to look good or to post it on Instagram, but just to keep track, just to have like that visual memory, and and to to remember what was it that made you comfortable? So that from a logistics standpoint.
And then, get interested in things that are not fashion. I think that really enriches your approach to fashion, and that's something that I learned as an artist that when you focus on artists, on on art, only your art could be great, obviously. But when you start focusing on different things. And it could be doesn't have to be anything, you know, like politics or philosophy. It could be gardening. It could be like just trying to inject your your creative endeavors with knowledge from other areas of life, I think, makes it a lot more enriching and and fulfilling. So just, more layered. So it's not just layers of clothes, but also layers of knowledge and and just interest. I think it just makes it a lot more interesting.
Maureen
Well, this was so fun. Where can listeners find you?
Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.
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Maureen: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s so true. And I certainly experience this as a writer on Substack myself—it can be hard to pin down into one thing. But that can also be the fun of it!
We're allowed to explore different aspects of who we are and of a particular topic, and I think you manage that really well.
In one of your more recent posts, you compared slow fashion to diet culture (aware of Virginia Sole-Smith), which really resonated with me—especially how you acknowledge the reality that participating in slow fashion has been elevated to a high moral status while simultaneously excluding so many people, particularly fat people.
What compelled you to write this post at this time?
Sushmita: These are really scary posts to put on the internet—especially in leftist spaces, where everybody is aiming for this moral purity. If you add any kind of complexity, you can become a target.
I was scared to write about it, but I think Substack allows for long-form content rather than just 140 characters or less. It lets us balance perspectives.
Hopefully, I was able to separate the idea of fashion justice from what we see as "sustainability" or "slow fashion" as a brand or an identity—because those are two very different things.
Fashion justice is about better conditions for garment workers and ensuring they have living wages. I don’t think anyone is against that. I really don’t. But the means to achieve that—the current slow fashion or ethical fashion movement—has such a heavy focus on consumerism. It’s become identity-focused rather than actually looking at how we can achieve that outcome.
I wrote this post after a series of revelations over the last couple of years. I started to feel more separated from the narratives that kept being repeated on the internet.
One of the big shifts for me was material envy, which I talk about a lot. I saw someone very prominent in the space admit how much they owned, and I realized I owned maybe a quarter of that. The difference between our wardrobes was startling, and I had this feeling inside me—why can’t I have that abundance? Why am I not deserving of beautiful clothes?
Another shift was recognizing the difference between identity and outcome. We're not really having conversations about how we can help garment workers. And I include myself in this—we, as consumers, have taken over the conversation. It’s almost a saviorism narrative: We in the Global North are going to help these poor garment workers.
Maureen: Yeah, yeah.
Sushmita: But the reality is that garment workers are already trying their absolute hardest to advocate for themselves. That’s why trade unions exist.
Many of them are dealing with governments that, even if they have laws in place to protect workers—especially women—those laws aren’t effective. Sexual harassment in factories is a huge issue, and we, as consumers, cannot fix that just by buying differently. We are not in the factories. We cannot protect these workers simply through buying differently.
Maureen: I'm getting chills.
Sushmita: Yeah.
Maureen: I so agree. I did not mean to cut you off, though!
Sushmita: No, no, it’s totally fine. It’s a conversation! But a lot of these things I haven’t said out loud before, so I’m still forming these thoughts as I speak.
I just feel like we’ve created this belief that we can buy our way into saving garment workers. And I don’t connect with that narrative anymore. Instead, I’m thinking about what actions we can take beyond consumerism to support garment workers.
One thing that’s been on my mind is that, due to the new [United States] administration, one of the key trade alliances in Bangladesh, Awaj Foundation, lost 20 to 30% of their funding. We could directly give them money.
That would be more powerful than tweeting or posting online, shaming other people about their consumerism.
Maureen: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes.
We’re so aligned, and this is part of the reason I wanted to have you on the show right now.
I’ve been a consumer of slow fashion content for a long time, and I think the early voices in this space raised important issues. They brought awareness to things people didn’t know about.
And to their credit, a lot of work has gone into that awareness—helping us be more conscious of what we buy and why.
But I also think it’s gone too far, to your point. It’s become about identity rather than outcome.
I would love to hear you talk more about the identity of being a "slow fashion person." Why do you think that has resonated so much with creators?
Sushmita: I think it follows what we already see in leftist spaces, where our identities become the whole of us.
For me, the biggest issue is this all-or-nothing thinking. Either you’re buying ethically, or you’re not. Either you’re a "reformed shopper," or you’re not. There’s no in-between.
I struggled with my own consumerism because I couldn’t afford the things I wanted to buy, and I didn’t give myself any grace.
I had spent years building a platform against fast fashion, and unfortunately, the majority of the fashion industry—99% of it—still operates with fast fashion tactics. Maybe not at the same production scale, but there’s still a lot of opaqueness.
It’s really difficult to be a responsible consumer.
And I wouldn’t allow myself to step outside of those boundaries. I had all these limitations. I still have these limitations.
But I was so scared of tarnishing my identity as someone who promotes ethical fashion.
And yet, the whole concept of ethical fashion is actually very, very complicated. People want you to believe that being a responsible consumer is so damn easy. It's just about, you know, choosing the right brand. And now that I've been in this space for a really long time, I’ve been contacting brands that claim to be size diverse or care about inclusivity or sustainability.
There are brands that use socially audited factories and have longstanding relationships with their factories, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they pay living wages. There are small businesses that have zero relationship to their makers. I’ve reached out to them, and they’ll be like, “No, we have no idea which factory we produce at.”
And there's just so much ethics-washing. There's small-business-washing as well. There are brands that are obviously a lot larger than they make themselves out to be. And it's absolutely impossible to always make the right decision when businesses themselves are not being transparent with consumers. A lot of these businesses actually say that they’re ethical or sustainable, but nobody really wants to talk about that aspect.
So not only is it difficult to be responsible when it comes to not buying from 99% of fashion, but it's also difficult when you are only buying from ethical brands because ethical is not regulated.
Maureen: Right. It's like the word "organic" in the United States. What does organic mean? Okay, well, organic means that it’s made out of earth-created materials. [But] organic does not mean that you don’t use pesticides. So there’s this kind of—perhaps purposeful—opaqueness around what a term means, then you don’t have to define it and you don’t have to have restrictions to work within.
I also wanted to go back and validate something you said earlier, which was that writing that post was vulnerable and difficult, and I completely relate to that. I put up a post, I think around the same time that you did—like, I think it was the same week. We were just on the same wavelength.
Oh no, I responded to yours. I'm so sorry. I responded to yours.
Anyway, I put up a post like, There’s this narrative that it’s easy to shop ethically, and yet the reality is very far from that for so many people. Again, going back to this idea of an identity rather than an outcome.
I started looking into the data around fast fashion. People say, Consumers buy sixty-eight items of clothing every year. I can’t find the statistic or the background for that. There are so many things that impact our carbon footprint to begin with. And I know the term ethical doesn’t just mean sustainability—it doesn’t just encompass green practices—but when it is coming from a sustainability perspective, there’s this idea that not buying new clothing has this tremendous impact on your carbon footprint.
And I really don’t think that’s true. I think that not owning a car has a way bigger impact. And as you were saying earlier, not buying new clothing doesn’t mean that you’re actually supporting the garment workers you say you’re supporting.
I try to bring an empathetic perspective to everything I do. And I think maybe we’re just feeling very overwhelmed and powerless in a lot of systems that don’t really feel like they’re working in our best interest. So we ask, “What can I personally do? Oh, well, I get dressed every day. Why don’t I control and try to live my values through that?”
Which I think is great, but it’s also not the bigger picture. And for anyone who faces barriers with shopping that way, it can have a tremendously harmful effect. Like, Am I a bad person if I’m not shopping with my values? But when the companies that align with your values don’t make clothes for you, how can you reconcile that?
Guest: Yeah. That’s such an important topic. You have so many good points.
So I think one of the biggest things is: who is actually creating the most environmental damage? We know that individuals collectively do make an impact, but it really is the biggest companies, right? So we need to balance our energy. Yes, of course, we can make individual changes, but we also need to be putting more pressure on companies that are just getting away with damaging our planet and our futures—rather than placing it all on ourselves.
Who is actually creating the most environmental damage? We know that individuals collectively do make an impact, but it really is the biggest companies, right?….We need to be putting more pressure on companies that are just getting away with damaging our planet and our futures.
And I think the thing with identity is that it’s so easy to align your identity with certain behaviors when you’re in a place that makes it easy for you to do so. I could say, Hey, I don’t have a car, and I take public transport everywhere. Well, I live in the middle of Tokyo, where the public transport is amazing. But when I lived in the countryside in the UK, that was impossible.
And this is a little snarky, but there are people out there leading the Target boycott when they don’t even have Targets in their country. Like, it’s so easy to say, "Boycott Target" or "I don’t shop at Target," when you don’t even have Target where you live.
I get really frustrated when people place shame on others when they have access to things that make it so much easier to conform to a slow fashion or ethical fashion identity. And of course, the biggest thing is size inclusivity.
It’s hard for me because I feel like I’m constantly straddling both sides of the narrative. One side says, "There are no ethical size-inclusive options," which isn’t true—that’s why I created my directories. But then the other side says, "It’s so easy to buy ethically when you’re fat," and that’s simply not true either.
Yes, there are options, but they’re much more scarce than what other people have. And the main reason I created my directory was that the biggest sustainable directory out there had a plus-size section that started at an XL, but included sizes from different countries. An Australian XL, a Japanese XL, an Indian XL—these are all very different from a U.S. XL. Some of them aren’t plus-size at all.
So it was impossible to find your size using one of the biggest sustainable directories. It was not plus-size friendly at all. And so, I try to hold both of those narratives: Yes, these options exist, but it’s not easy. Right. You wrote this amazing piece about shame.
Maureen: Yeah, everything’s about shame.
Sushmita: And one of the things I was thinking is, shame does work—but only for people who have already taken on that identity and internalized it.
Fast fashion consumption—again, I don’t know about that sixty-eight-garment statistic, I couldn’t find the original source either—but I do know that fast fashion and ultra-fast fashion overconsumption is an issue.
But who is internalizing that shame? It’s a small group of people who are taking on the burden of individual responsibility, feeling the heaviness, shame, and guilt for the collective consumption. Meanwhile, the people actually overconsuming don’t care about these ethical fashion narratives. If anything, they’re like, "I’m sick of your moralizing. I just don’t care."
It’s a small group of people who are taking on the burden of individual responsibility, feeling the heaviness, shame, and guilt for the collective consumption. Meanwhile, the people actually overconsuming don’t care about these ethical fashion narratives.
So the question is: If this small group is carrying the shame, do we keep trying to reach out and convince people who clearly aren’t receptive? Or do we find other ways to bring about the change we want instead of focusing on shame?
Maureen: Yeah, exactly. How do we, as a slow fashion community, shift our narrative to show that we’re not doing this to make our lives worse? We’re not martyrs. We do this because we want to stay optimistic for the future.
And I think that’s where we need to be heading—toward a middle ground between "It’s super easy" and "It’s impossible."
Sushmita: For sure. I sometimes use these terms interchangeably, but there are differences between slow fashion, ethical fashion, and sustainable fashion. They do overlap, but I don’t follow the slow fashion philosophy. I want more, more, more.
For me, ethical fashion has always been the biggest focus—seeing it as a labor-centered movement and thinking about how we can mitigate harm and be more responsible consumers.
But the issue is, there are limitations to that for sure. And I think one of the things is that, you know, we have this idea in our mind of if we buy from small businesses in the US or the UK or Australia, they may be ethical, but they don't really have any tangible impact on garment workers in the global south. So those two behaviors are very separate. But in terms of turning away from shame and moving towards a different way of consumerism, I feel like there's so many possibilities and positive outcomes from buying from brands outside of the mainstream. I really connect with it because I like the fashion that's available. I love the textiles, the fashion that's coming out of India right now, the contemporary stuff. There's a lot of color. There's things that I really, really love. I think for me though is, when you're not rich or when you have other limitations, including size or geographical limitations, me living in Japan, sometimes it's just hard to, you know, buy what you need.
So there are some beautiful things out there, and I try to support those brands as often as I can. But there are things where I'm just like, Oh, I really wish that I had something warm for the winter that I didn't have to wait four months to arrive and that didn’t cost three to four times the amount plus the additional shipping. And I'm not saying that ethical brands are overpriced. They're not. But as a consumer, it's still hard to pay that kind of money, and I just wish that we would allow people more grace as consumers, especially within this very, very small group of early adopters who’ve taken on these new behaviors. I wish that it didn't have to be this kind of thing of like, you have to be perfect all the time. Otherwise, you no longer believe in the things that you believe.
Maureen: To that point, I would love to hear a little bit about... you had posted somewhat recently about trying to experience some more consumerism ease. Could you share a little bit more about some of the steps that you might take towards giving yourself that slack when it comes to buying clothes that align with your ethical values?
Sushmita:Yeah, I will. I think, again, it's really scary. It's like, it's almost like saying, "Oh my gosh, I'm stepping out of bounds." I'm afraid about, you know, how people will judge me. I went on to... this is completely unrelated, but before the consumerism ease, I went on to a podcast a few months ago and I had somebody email me. One of the things that they emailed me about was veganism and how important it was to them, and I found it really strange because I'm not vegan. I don’t talk about food in that way. And nothing that I said on that podcast was about food. But it was almost like, if you believe in this, then you should also believe in this. And they had put me into, I think, a box of like a perfect sustainable advocate, and that's not something that I align with at all. The only reason I said it was because I just get scared of doing things that fall out of those identity parameters and how I will be seen and how my body of work might be misaligned because I'm not towing that line perfectly.
But yeah, so in terms of the consumerism ease, one of the things is, people who are now reformed slow fashion advocates or ethical fashion advocates, they got a lot of time where they were able to over-consume and they got to find their style. And then all of a sudden overnight, they're like, Hey, not into that anymore. And you're a bad person if you still are. So they got that experience. Whilst for me, and I've spoken about this time and time again, my size and my economic situation changed very, very dramatically.
So, I didn’t over-consume fast fashion for a decade. I didn’t even really do anything with fashion. I just had my work outfits and then I had some comfy athleisure outfits, and that was it. I just had no opportunity. And so now that I'm trying to discover my style and connect with fashion, one of the things that has really come to light is that it takes work, and it doesn't always happen right away.
So, what I mean is when you make a purchase, it doesn't mean that that purchase is going to be completely amazing and suit you. So that's why I don't really think like, you know, if you only make five purchases a year, if you're fat or if, like, you know, for me, I'm also petite as well. Those limitations mean the chances are out of those five purchases, they're not all going to fit me in the way that I want.
And so the biggest ease that I've given myself is like, if I thrift the wrong thing and it doesn't look good on me, or it doesn't fit the way that I want it to, I don't want to feel guilty anymore. I'm trying my best. I'm checking measurements carefully. Like, I'm doing what I can, and I think, I feel like I've internalized too much shame when it comes to making the wrong purchases.
If I thrift the wrong thing and it doesn't look good on me, or it doesn't fit the way that I want it to, I don't want to feel guilty anymore.
So in terms of not necessarily ethical consumerism, I actually have a really good example. Yesterday, I had planned to go to a community gym with one of my friends, and you need indoor shoes for gyms here so you have to change into sport shoes that haven't been worn outside, just to maintain a level of cleanliness. And I didn't realize that I needed those indoor shoes until very late the night before.
I was like, what am I going to do? Like, I can't order a pair of shoes online. They're not going to come in time. If I order a pair of sustainable shoes, they're going to be here in like, a month and a half. It's not gonna happen. I'm not financially prepared as well to make that, you know, investment when it comes to sports shoes from sustainable brands—like you're looking at a couple of hundred bucks. It's quite expensive.
So I decided to go to Don Quixote, if you know Don Quixote, in Japan. Don Quixote. It's like a megastore. And they're open very late. So some of them are open twenty-four hours. We had one that was half an hour from us that was open till 3am. I went to Don Quixote late at night. It was like ten o'clock at night to try and find a pair of indoor shoes. And yeah, so it was a very impulsive kind of purchase. I chose a brand that, for me, is very decent. It's a Japanese brand. But again, they're completely opaque. I don't think that they're ethical in terms of how their textile workers are treated. But it felt fine. I didn’t want to feel this additional layer of shame and guilt for not making the right decision under the circumstances.
Generally, when I talk about consumerism ease, I just want to be more gentle with myself. Like, I've always kind of said for other people that they should do what they can within their capacity and access level, but I just have never reserved that grace for myself. And yeah, I want more of that softness going forward because I feel like, you know, if all of us are making changes to some extent, rather than a few of us trying to follow this morally perfect path, it's going to be a lot more impactful and hopefully we'll also have more energy for the more important stuff.
I just want to be more gentle with myself
Maureen: I wanted to acknowledge both things at once, right? You do have an opportunity to bring that gentleness to yourself, and also, throughout this conversation and through your writing, it is so apparent that the judgment that you're experiencing is also external. And so, I do think that, when we can bring gentleness to ourselves, that's amazing. But also, like, I want to acknowledge that, for you, the fact that that's been a challenge to give yourself that... Sounds like it's coming from a rational place of like, there are people out there that will judge me and they will tell me.
And I just want to acknowledge that that sounds really difficult, and I definitely don't think you deserve that. I really hope that we as a creator community can at least provide that for each other if it's not coming from the audience.
And, if you ever are looking for grace, I mean, I certainly would give it to you. I'm glad that you were able to get those shoes and go to the gym with your friend. I mean, that's legitimate to me, and there are other things that you are doing that are in support of the garment workers that you care about. And so I think that one purchase is not the entire extent of your impact on this community or this issue.
There are other things that you are doing that are in support of the garment workers that you care about. One purchase is not the entire extent of your impact on this community or this issue.
Sushmita: Thank you, Maureen.
One of the things that has really come to light is moving on to Substack, I have noticed the generosity of creators and the people who kind of walk the line of compassion and self-compassion and empathy and complexity. They have been the most generous to me, and I feel like really the opposite of the people who kind of spend time framing under this idea of justice have really kind of internalized scarcity in this way that there's no room for any other creator. And I don't know why, but I really obviously connect with this idea that we can be generous towards others and there is space for others, I guess, you know, especially if we're looking towards building a collective goal and having these more nuanced discussions. Building that community is like one of the most essential things.
Maureen: I agree, and it's awesome to hear that your experience on Substack is different. I hope that doesn't change and that we can continue to be in community rather than competition with each other.
I was hoping to talk about your art a little bit and how your art influences your style and vice versa.
Sushmita: I love color. That's a big thing for me. I'm very new to getting back in touch with my connection with fashion, and the first thing that I really was drawn to was adding more color.
That's because I make art and obviously I use color there and so I'm already comfortable with it. The other thing is prints; I love prints and I feel that people sometimes hesitate to add prints to their wardrobe because, you know, they might quote unquote go out of style, blah, blah, blah.
But I feel like once you connect with the print, it feels like you can integrate it as part of your individual style, regardless of the trends changes. And I really liken it to when you go to an art gallery. And if you look at every single piece of work, you get really exhausted because you're reading every single art statement and you're trying to treat everything equally, and it's similar to like maybe even trying to buy fashion because you're weighing up every single option. Whilst sometimes, and this is definitely the method that I would encourage, if you go into an art gallery and you see a piece that you love, just spend time with that piece. Spend less time with the others.
And I feel like that's the same thing with choosing prints and colors in your wardrobe. Choosing what you get the most enjoyment out of and really trusting yourself that you know what you like and trust what you're drawn to rather than continuously being worried about having to fit a certain style archetype.
I'm not saying that we aren't externally influenced or, you know, our styles won't overlap like that's just natural, but I do think self-trust definitely comes into it.
Maureen: I love that suggestion both for the museum and then also for pattern. Even just today I'm wearing this kind of like pattern sweater today. And I was thinking, I was like, oh man, that sweater is like really standing out in my wardrobe. Everything else is plain and I have this one. And I was like, you know what? I like it. I like it. I like it. That's enough. I can just like it and I can wear it and I connect with it. I don't have to question how it relates to everything else and I don't have to question like what it means about me or put myself into a box. I can just like it. So I resonate with; it's very on my mind.
Sushmita: I went into a jewelry store just a couple of days ago and it was one of those like handmade jewelry stores, so the artists own it. It wasn't expensive. They were on the cheaper side and I found these, I'm wearing them now, they're little cat earrings. And I found these little cat earrings and I fell in love with them straight away because I love cats and the secondary narrative that came up was like, oh, they don't look expensive enough. They don't look like high fashion enough. And I found myself really questioning it. I was like, oh my God, you know. Oh, like, if I buy these, then it's just so, what is it? What do the kids say? Normcore. Maybe it's too normcore. I had to challenge myself and be like, wait, I like them. I should just get it. And so I did. And now they bring me a lot of joy!
Maureen: Oh, I love that!
Next, I would just love to talk a little bit about, we have talked about kind of the barriers and things that you face, and we just talked about that kind of internal dialogue, but how do you decide what to buy and what to wear and how do you decide what not to buy or wear?
Sushmita: Like I mentioned, I didn't really have a lot of fashion access for a long time. I was just buying whatever was available and there wasn't much available. So that's why for a decade it was just kind of like comfy pants and a t-shirt and it was like these stretchy. Like, it was definitely athleisure. Sometimes prints that I didn't even like that much just because that was in my size. And so now... I have more options, obviously being able to look at different brands across the world. I'm able to kind of bring in more discernment.
I didn't really have a lot of fashion access for a long time. I was just buying whatever was available and there wasn't much available… Sometimes prints that I didn't even like that much just because that was in my size.
So previously, all I did was like, look at what was available, filter by size and be like, okay, this is all right. I'll just get this. And now I can really ask myself, do I like this? How does it fit in with other pieces in my wardrobe? I have certain colors that I'm looking to bring in. So I'm trying to create more cohesion, but again, I'm really at the beginning of this journey because I just didn't have the access before. In terms of what I decide to wear day to day, most of the time I'm inside the house. I don't really express my style. I just wear my home wardrobe, which is not very stylish. It's just kind of like very old, worn out, fast fashion. But when I leave the house and I get dressed, that is when I feel mostly more in touch with myself and my style.
And now I can really ask myself, do I like this? How does it fit in with other pieces in my wardrobe?
And it's definitely changed. Growing up, I would always wear skirts and avoid trousers and now I have fallen more in love with bold big tops and trousers. And I still love my skirts and my dresses, but I feel the way that I see my body has also affected the way that I dress. I never wore trousers before, that was because of the way that I saw like my thighs and trying to kind of conform to a certain way of dressing that may or may not have actually made me look thinner. Whilst now, it's more about proportions rather than it being about just my body alone.
Maureen: And when you say proportion, what comes to my mind would be like silhouette and like expression. Is that what you mean or do you mean something else?
Sushmita: No, exactly that. Experimenting kind of with the crop of certain tops and lengths of pants and, dressing in a more bold way. Embodying a style that maybe I didn't have the confidence to completely step into when I was younger.
Maureen: I relate to that. I definitely relate to that. It's not easy. Knowing that, you're feeling like you're kind of starting this out or it's somewhat newer to be able to use a little more discernment when you're shopping, what advice would you give to someone who's trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?
Sushmita: It's a big question.
I think authenticity in itself can become really tricky because I feel like it gets confused with this idea of having to be really, really unique. Just like developing an art style like, you know, you have this pressure of having this singular style that's only yours and no one else's, but I feel like it's okay to be inspired by what other people wear. And it's okay to wear things that are very similar and overlap.
If I liken it to just making art, then it's really just about focusing on the act of dressing. And really tuning into what you like. For me, I'm kind of shifting towards both the more, to take on one of your words, Maureen, intuitive kind of decisions about dressing whilst also focusing on the analytics as well.
If you're really just starting out, and you don't have an overwhelming wardrobe, then just focusing on choosing things that you like, but if you already have a really full wardrobe where you're feeling a bit overwhelmed, I think analytics can really help because then you can see what's missing in terms of your day-to-day life and then balancing both of those decisions together, the self-trust, what you like, whilst also filling in those practical gaps.
Maureen: I love that. That's such good advice and also really nuanced. Not every piece of advice makes sense for everyone, based on where they're at in their kind of personal style journey, for lack of a better word. I love that distinction that you made between, if you have a lot of clothing that's a different kind of situation than if you have a smaller wardrobe.
This has been really fun and I love hearing you talk about your mission and how Ethical Fat Fashion fits into the broader landscape and, I'm going to be thinking a lot harder now about, when I use the word slow fashion versus when I say ethical versus when I say sustainable. I want to be a little bit more clear about what you, what those mean. I think we need to be donating our money to our garment workers. Could you remind us what the name of the organization was, or was it a union?
Sushmita: it's a large foundation, based in Bangladesh. A lot of fast fashion companies produce there. They've shifted their manufacturing from India to Bangladesh because it's cheaper. I really feel like, even if you're still buying fast fashion, you can still contribute in that way for sure.
Maureen: I am going to be posting that everywhere. I am leaning towards that direction too. I'm not going to shop perfectly, but I will put my money also towards things that I care about. And that [organization] sounds like a great place to start. Thank you so much. Where can listeners find you?
Sushmita: Of course, the Substack, the Ethical Fat Fashion . I still have social media channel, I mean, Substack is social media, but... the Meta platforms as well. So threads and also Instagram, also Ethical Fat Fashion, but I'm on there less because I'm really focusing all my energy on the Substack.
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