Grey Matters with Leah and Angela – Details, episodes & analysis

In this episode of Grey Matters, Leah reflects on a powerful idea from our first guest, high school ELA teacher Rod Naquin: coincident opposites , the idea that seemingly contradictory ideas can coexist, side by side, in teaching and learning.

Drawing on a story Rod shared about Rumi, Leah explores what shifts when we stop flattening complexity into binaries and instead name the tensions that live at the heart of literacy work.

From social media debates, to school partnerships, to tutoring sessions and keynote preparation, this episode traces how honoring the grey leads to stronger relationships, clearer planning, and more confident teaching.

Rather than choosing sides — phonics or meaning, fast or slow, structure or choice — this conversation invites educators to ask a different question: What problem is each approach trying to solve?

If you’ve ever felt exhausted by certainty, uneasy with extremes, or relieved by the words “it depends,” this episode is for you.

🎧 Note: This episode builds directly on our conversation with Rod Naquin in Episode 1. We recommend listening to that one first.

Stay with us in the grey.

To learn more about Leah’s work: ⁠https://www.leahmermelstein.com/⁠

To learn more about Angela’s work: 

⁠https://www.angelastockman.com/⁠

To comment on this episode:

⁠greymatters26@gmail.com⁠

The Religion of Love Revisited:

⁠https://mail.google.com/mail/u/2/?ogbl#search/naquin.rod%40gmail.com/KtbxLzGLkRrkzqxpXHqrmkqgFVTtFfxVZg?projector=1&messagePartId=0.1⁠

For our inaugural episode, we're diving deep into Rod J. Naquin's November 2025 Substack post, The Science of Dialogue: Why teaching requires managing paradox. If you've ever felt like you're constantly juggling contradictory demands in your classroom—structure versus flexibility, covering content versus going deep, challenging students versus supporting them—this conversation is for you.

Rod makes a compelling case that these tensions aren't problems to solve, but paradoxes to manage. We'll explore why the search for "best practices" might be missing the point entirely, what it really means to develop teacher judgment, and how leaders can support educators in holding complexity instead of demanding simple solutions.

What if the reason teaching feels impossible is that we've been trying to solve problems that can't—and shouldn't—be solved?

Show Notes:

Keep up with Rod on Substack

Read Parsing the Practice of Teaching by Mary Kennedy

Rod also recommends The Religion of Love Revisited by Chittick and Toward a Theory of Paradox: A Dynamic Equilibrium Model of Organizing by Wendy K. Smith and Marianne W. Lewis

What if documentation wasn't about compliance, but instead, an act of dignity? In this episode, Angela reflects on the conversation with Melinda Karshner and follows Leah's thread on dignity into new territory. She considers what we make visible as teachers and learners, what we allow to disappear, and what it would mean to tell more complete stories about learners and teachers.

Here, she shares real stories that unfolded in professional learning spaces over the last few weeks, sharing new reflections on pedagogical documentation, multimodal assessment, and the weight of a testing culture that was never designed to hold the complexity of what students actually know and can do.

Whether you're an educator buried in data you can't use, trying to build assessment systems that honor who students are, or asking hard questions about whose stories get told — and whose don't — this episode will challenge you to redefine what it means to assess learners and learning.

Contact: greymatters26@gmail.com

Ways to get in touch with Angela:

• Website
• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Substack

Ways to get in touch with Leah:

• Facebook
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Substack

Show Notes and References:

• Hanif Abdurraqib
• Jody Shipka, Toward a Composition Made Whole (University of Pittsburgh Press)
• RAND Corporation — Teacher Well-Being and Intentions to Leave: Findings from the 2023 State of the American Teacher Survey
• Council of the Great City Schools — Student Testing in America's Great City Schools: An Inventory and Preliminary Analysis (2015)

What if the most powerful learning happens not in perfectly planned lessons, but in the spaces between when teachers and students wrestle with paradox, wrestle with uncertainty, and navigate the grey areas of curriculum, instruction, and real classroom life?

In this episode of Grey Matters, Leah and Angela are joined by literacy educator Melinda Karshner to explore the paradoxes that live at the heart of teaching and learning.

Drawing on Melinda’s experiences as a classroom teacher, literacy coach, and parent of a dyslexic daughter, the conversation unpacks what happens when educators stop seeking a single “right” answer and instead embrace the tensions that shape meaningful instruction.

From small group interventions to curricular decisions, mentorship, and leadership, this episode traces how honoring the gray spaces leads to stronger teacher-student relationships, deeper engagement, and more thoughtful instructional choices.

Rather than framing debates as “leveled readers”, “decodable texts”  or “authentic texts,” “research or judgement,” or “fidelity or flexibility,” this conversation invites educators to ask a different question: How can we balance evidence, context, and student needs?

If you’ve ever felt uncertain about the “best practice,” worried about fidelity versus responsiveness, or inspired by the idea of dignifying both students and teachers, this episode is for you.

🎧 Note: This conversation builds on the themes of our earlier episodes but stands on its own as a deep dive into teaching paradoxes and mentorship.

For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com

Resources from Melinda Karshner:

• https://substack.com/@mrsk04
• https://www.teach-eduventuring.com/

Other connected resources:

• The Mentoree Program that Angela spoke about https://thementoree.com/who-we-are/

·  Excellent teacher research: https://research.acer.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=research_conference_2003#:~:text=E16%20Expert%20teachers%20enhance%20surface,in%20terms%20of%20surface%20learning

What if keeping student dignity front and center could actually guide your daily decisions in teaching and learning? In this episode, Leah reflects on the conversation with Melinda Karshner and dives deep into how dignity, both for students and teachers, shapes classrooms, mentorship, and leadership.

Hear real stories from classrooms, explore phonics instruction, student engagement, and teacher support, and discover how dialogue and collaboration can restore dignity in the gray spaces where learning and growth truly happen.

Whether you’re leading a classroom, mentoring teachers, or just curious about navigating the tough questions in education, this episode will spark reflection and practical ideas to honor every learner, and yourself, in the process.

For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com

To learn more about Leah and Angela’s work 

https://www.leahmermelstein.com/

Ways to get in touch with Leah

Facebook

LinkedIn

Instagram

Substack

Ways to get in touch with Angela

https://www.angelastockman.com/

stockmanangela@gmail.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelastockman/

https://substack.com/@angelastockman

https://www.instagram.com/angela__stockman/

https://www.facebook.com/AngelaMStockman

An Article on the difference between speech to print and print to speech approaches

https://www.aetonline.org/images/MEMBER_CENTER_Section/Journal_Docs/2023/44-2/Fall2023_03_ASpeech-to-PrintLinguisticPhonicsApproach-Fein.pdf

Rod’s article https://open.substack.com/pub/rodjnaquin/p/why-epistemology-matters-in-education?r=4uwjft&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Leah’s article https://open.substack.com/pub/leahmermelstein/p/when-research-stands-too-tall-a-story?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=web

This week Angela reflects on living with coincident opposites in her own context as a professional learning facilitator. This is the concept Rod Naquin introduced in Episode 1 of Grey Matters and the same one that Leah carried into her work and reflected on in episode 2.

In this episode, Angela mines a common tension her own work--one that tempts her to soften the pain points participants reveal in her sessions by offering them practical solutions and tangible tools. Quickly. While this approach often yields five star reviews, it also leaves her grappling with issues of authenticity, integrity, and meaningful impact.

If this resonates, perhaps you're wondering, too: How might our commitment to carrying the full weight of heavy things ultimately lighten their load? And what does this mean in our AI augmented world?

Listen in as Angela offers her take on the power of coincident opposites and how it's informing the way she speaks with administrators and teachers about using AI to improve literacy outcomes.

Learn more about Angela on her website, and catch up with Leah here.

Or drop us a line at greymatters26@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you.

Grey Matters podcast explores the complexities of teaching and literacy, emphasizing the importance of intentional and discriminating teaching, navigating paradoxes in education, and embracing multiple truths.

This conversation delves into the impact of competing tensions on teacher burnout, the role of honesty in professional development, and the blowups and tensions in literacy education.

Our podcast encourages embracing paradoxical thinking, accepting reality rather than suffering as a result of our expectations, and building belonging through connection and collaboration.

Listen in as we offer final takeaways on all we've learned from Rod Naquin and how his thinking has changed our practices and enriched our perspectives.

If you haven't had the chance to listen to our first episode with Rod and our individual reflections after, catch up with us on Apple or Spotify, and while you're there, be sure to subscribe.

You can learn more about Leah on her website, and you'll find Angela right here.