Governance Futures – Details, episodes & analysis

In this episode of The Governance Futures Podcast, hosts Jamilya Kamalova and Eugene Leventhal sit down with Eric Alston to explore the evolving dynamics of governance. Eric is a Scholar in Residence in the Finance Division at CU Boulder. His research and teaching draw from institutional analysis, law and economics, and constitutional design. He pursues questions ranging from institutional and organizational theory to digital governance across a wide range of network-coordinated contexts. Together, we unpack the limitations of democratic decision-making, the productive role of conflict, and how constitutions shape resilience in both traditional and decentralized organizations. Drawing from his academic work and his experience advising governments and DAOs, Eric offers sharp insights into the future of governance. The conversation also touches on the importance of an animating purpose in organizational design and what’s at stake in building robust systems for digitally networked communities. Tune in for a deep and thought-provoking conversation at the intersection of theory and practice. Academic work we mention in this episode: - “Governance as Conflict: Constitution of Shared Values Defining Future Margins of Disagreement” (2022) – by Eric Alston https://law.mit.edu/pub/governanceasconflict/release/1 - “What Constitutes a Constitution?” – by Michael Zargham, Eric Alston, Kelsie Nabben, and Ilan Ben-Meir (2023) https://blog.block.science/what-constitutes-a-constitution/ - "Constitutions and Blockchains: Competitive Governance of Fundamental Rule Sets" – by Eric Alston (2019) https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3358434 Check new print: - "Handbook on Institutions and Complexity" Edited by Eric Alston , Lee J. Alston , and Bernardo Mueller (2025) https://www.elgaronline.com/edcollbook/book/9781035309726/9781035309726.xml Listen to this episode on all platforms: - Apple : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/gov-futures-trailer/id1823028614?i=1000714675608 - Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6QRkrWmq21Z66jRJtN2UIu - Follow us on X : https://x.com/gov_futures

00:00 Teaser

00:48 Introduction to The Governance Futures Podcast

01:01 Meet Eric Alston: Scholar and Governance Expert

01:37 Exploring Governance and Democratic Decision Making

02:32 Defining Governance in a Digital Context

02:57 The Complexities of Blockchain Governance

06:47 Limitations of Democratic Decision Making

12:29 The Concept of Animating Purpose in Organizations

21:39 Constitutional Design and Governance Structures

34:47 Delegated Authority and Agency Costs

35:34 Separation of Competencies and Review Functions

37:04 Constraints on Governance Authority

40:27 Governance as Conflict

42:19 Emergent Nature of Conflict

53:56 Decentralization and Subsidiarity

59:13 Future of Web3 Governance

01:03:24 Quick Fire Quiz

01:04:40 Conclusion and Acknowledgements

Welcome to Governance Futures - a podcast where we explore how governance works (and fails) in Web3 and beyond. Hosted by Eugene Leventhal and Jamilya Kamalova, each episode dives deep into the evolving principles of coordination, accountability, and collective decision-making in decentralized ecosystems.

This is the trailer for the forthcoming podcast. Subscribe to get the first episode of our first season, coming weekly every Thursday starting July 3, 2025. 

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In this episode of The Governance Futures Podcast, Eugene Leventhal & Jamilya Kamalova speak with Angela Walch about the promises and pitfalls of replacing failing institutions with technologies like crypto and AI. Angela discusses the collapse of rule of law, the myth of “tech as governance,” and the limits of algorithmic solutions to political problems. Together, we explore how protocol systems assign roles that shape our behavior - and what Web3 emergencies reveal about where power really lies. Angela Walch is an independent researcher and writer. She writes the Angela Walch publication on Substack, and was a core researcher in the Ethereum Foundation’s inaugural Summer of Protocols program in 2023. Her most recent work is The Protocol System Experience, which provides a conceptual framework for human rule systems of all kinds. Angela was a Professor of Law at St. Mary’s University of Law from 2012 - 2023. Her research has focused on blockchain governance, decentralization, systemic risks, blockchain language, and the intersection between these areas. Her work on blockchains as financial market infrastructure, the operational risks of open source software governance, the role of software developers as fiduciaries of public blockchains, and the role of miners as intermediaries has been foundational to the field of cryptoeconomic systems, and is recognized internationally. Angela has advised policy makers and regulators around the world, including the Federal Reserve, the White House, the Bank of England, and the BIS, and has testified before the US Senate Banking Committee. Her research has been featured in The Economist, Bloomberg, Wired, Coindesk, and more. Angela's work and publications we mention in this episode: * “Blockchain Emergencies & Open-Source Software Governance: Is ‘Rough Consensus’ a Suicide Pact?” (2021) https://commons.stmarytx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1631&context=facarticles * Substack Note on Governance and Protocols https://substack.com/@angelawalch/note/c-106330495 * "The Fundamentals of Protocol Systems” (2023) https://summerofprotocols.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/The-Fundamentals-of-Protocol-Systems-Angela-Walch.pdf Listen to this episode on all platforms: - Apple : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/gov-futures-trailer/id1823028614?i=1000714675608 - Spotify : https://open.spotify.com/show/6QRkrWmq21Z66jRJtN2UIu - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gov_Futures - Follow us on X: https://x.com/gov_futures

00:00  Teaser and Introduction

02:10   Setting the Stage

02:20  Institutional Collapse and Tech's Role

03:04  Skepticism Towards Tech Replacing Institutions

05:56 Misconceptions About Technology

09:09  AI and Crypto Governance Challenges

12:59 Roles and Perceptions in Governance Systems

22:02 Decentralization and Power Dynamics

23:52 Emergency Responses and Governance Legitimacy

31:39 Addressing Conflict of Interest in DAOs

34:17 The Mythology of Governance Systems

38:17 Handling Emergencies in Crypto and Beyond

44:05 The Role of Emergency Response Groups in Web3

49:39  Building Robust Governance Systems from Scratch

55:15  The Importance of Funding Basic Research

58:38  Quick-Fire Quiz and Conclusion

In this special 'About Us' episode of Governance Futures, we — Jamilya Kamalova and Eugene Leventhal — share a bit about who we are, what brought us into the world of decentralized governance and Web3, and why this space matters to us. We talk about our personal journeys, how we each got involved in this work, and what excites us most about the future of governance. This episode lays the foundation for the podcast — giving you a sense of what drives us and what kinds of conversations you can look forward to in the episodes ahead.

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00:00 Teaser

00:33 Meet the Hosts: Jamilya and Eugene

01:08 Jamilya's Journey into Web3 and Governance

01:53 Eugene's Path to Governance and Web3

02:59 Challenges and Fascinations in Governance

04:29 The Appeal and Struggles of Decentralized Governance

13:30 Early Encounters with Cryptocurrency

18:38 Reflections on the Evolution of Web3

24:52 Quiz Time: One-Word Answers

30:50 Closing Thoughts and Future Episodes

In this episode of Governance Futures, Eugene and Jamilya speak with Dennison Bertram, co-founder and CEO of Tally, about the evolving role of regulation, DAOs, and decentralization. We dig into the implications of the Clarity Act, why tooling isn't the only thing DAOs need, and how state alignment is becoming essential to scale Web3 governance. This is a thoughtful, provocative conversation for anyone building or thinking critically about the future of crypto, compliance, and the critical role of legal frameworks in shaping the next era of web3 innovation.

Timestamps 00:00 Teaser and Introduction 03:50 Building crypto for real inclusion 06:10 Tech as a double-edged sword 08:50 Missed opportunities with NFTs & innovation 11:47 The importance of clear crypto regulation 13:15 From tools to infrastructure: evolution of Tally 15:30 DAOs as the next corporate structure 19:59 What does decentralization *really* mean? 27:24 How the Clarity Act changes the game 33:38 Why regulation and incorporation matter 38:00 The risk of operating in a legal gray zone 42:00 The new age of institution-friendly crypto 47:25 Global regulatory competition & jurisdiction shopping 54:34 State bailouts & crypto collapse responses 59:18 What DAOs still get wrong 1:01:16 Why builders really need clarity 1:06:36 Regulation isn't top-down—it's collaborative 1:10:36 Quiz: Governance in one word 1:11:37 Outro

In this episode, together with James and Dani we dive deep into the revolutionary concept of "liquefaction" and its profound implications for Web3 identity, governance, and ownership. We explore how this groundbreaking research challenges fundamental assumptions about blockchain addresses, private keys, and digital identity, while examining the emergence of Dark DAOs as anonymous voting cartels that could reshape decentralized governance forever. James Austgen is a PhD student at Cornell Tech and is advised by Professor Ari Juels. His research interests include blockchains, privacy, next-generation wallets, and TEEs. Dani Vilardell is a second year PhD student at Cornell Tech and is advised by Professor Ari Juels. With a background in mathematics and electrical engineering, his interests include Zero Knowledge Proofs, Blockchains and Privacy. James and Dani are researchers working on liquefaction, which enables the transfer of assets or privileges that are meant to be nontransferable/illiquid. Their work exposes critical vulnerabilities in current Web3 systems, from locked token mechanisms to NFT exclusivity, while also revealing new possibilities for privacy-preserving applications and cross-chain interoperability. In this episode, James and Dani share invaluable insights from their cutting-edge research on liquefaction, shedding light on vote buying, identity theft risks, and the transformative potential of programmable private key sharing. Learn about complete knowledge proofs, trusted execution environments, the ethics of identity rental, and the future of governance in a post-liquefaction world. Don't miss this comprehensive discussion that bridges cryptography, governance theory, and the evolving landscape of digital ownership. Some of the work we mention in the episode: - Austgen, J., Fàbrega, A., Allen, S., Babel, K., Kelkar, M., & Juels, A. (2023, November 1). DAO decentralization: Voting-bloc entropy, bribery, and dark DAOs (v1.0) [Preprint]. arXiv. https://arxiv.org/pdf/2311.03530 - Austgen, J., Fàbrega, A., Kelkar, M., Vilardell, D., Allen, S., Babel, K., Yu, J., & Juels, A. (2024). *Liquefaction: Privately Liquefying Blockchain Assets*. Cornell Tech. Available via: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2412.02634 - Take my Ape experiment : https://takemyape.com/ 

  Chapter Timestamps 00:00 - Intro & Teaser 02:55 - Welcome and Setup: Web3 Fragility & Liquefaction 04:46 - How Liquefaction Enhances Private Coordination 06:26 - Redefining Ownership Assumptions in Web3 08:00 - Lock Tokens & Undermining Incentives 09:59 - Dark DAOs and Vote Selling Risks 12:10 - State of Decentralization in DAOs 13:55 - Dark DAOs as Decentralized Cartels 15:17 - Identity Theft via Liquefaction 16:56 - "Take My Ape" Experiment Explained 19:39 - Renting Reputations & Board Ape Access 22:00 - Complete Knowledge as a Defensive Mechanism 24:55 - Technical Breakdown: Why TEE > MPC 27:07 - Ethical Questions of Open Sourcing Dark DAOs 28:10 - Constructive Use Cases: Treasury, Auctions, Bridges 30:15 - Overlay Smart Contracts and Interoperability 32:00 - Reputation Rental Marketplaces 34:12 - Per-Asset Policies & Selective Liquefaction 36:00 - Asset Sharing & Community Coordination 37:45 - Rethinking Governance Models 39:10 - Governance Marketplaces & Vote Monetization 41:00 - AI Delegates in DAOs: Risks and Coordination 43:00 - Ethics of Renting Identity & Credential Markets 45:00 - Final Thoughts: Future of Governance 46:50 - Quiz: One-word Governance Futures Listen to this episode on all platforms: Apple : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/gov-futures-trailer/id1823028614?i=1000714675608 Spotify : https://open.spotify.com/show/6QRkrWmq21Z66jRJtN2UIu Follow us on X: https://x.com/gov_futures

In this episode, together with Ellie Rennie we dive deep into the intricacies of Decentralized Autonomous Organizations (DAOs). We explore the dynamics of human coordination versus automated systems, the impact of AI on DAOs, and the critical components that make or break decentralized communities. Ellie Rennie is a Professor at RMIT University. Her research is examining permissionless systems and on-chain communities using ethnographic methods, including validator governance, contribution systems and infrastructures for the collective governance of knowledge. Ellie is also a Research Director within the international research network Metagov and an Associate Investigator of the ARC Centre of Excellence for Automated Decision-Making and Society. In this episode, Ellie shares invaluable insights from her extensive research on decentralized communities, shedding light on collusion, attention problems, and the transformative potential of DAOs. Learn about the Knowledge Organization Infrastructure (KOI), its application in DAOs, and the concept of contribution systems and more. Don't miss this comprehensive discussion that bridges organizational theory, ethnography, and cutting-edge technology. Some of the work by Professor Ellie Rennie mentioned in the episode: - Rennie, E. (2024, July 6). What is a good DAO (and how do we know)? Medium. https://ellierennie.medium.com/what-is-a-good-dao-and-how-do-we-know-2efa2943997b - Rennie, E. (2023, September 28). On Governators. Medium. https://ellierennie.medium.com/on-governators-92ec2697829d - Rennie, E. (2024, April 24). KOI-Pond: The creation of a synthetic deme. Medium. https://ellierennie.medium.com/koi-pond-the-creation-of-a-synthetic-deme-999a6f1f3426 - Rennie, E., & Potts, J. (2024, November 11). Contribution systems. SSRN. https://doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.5018758 Listen to this episode on all platforms: Apple : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/gov-futures-trailer/id1823028614?i=1000714675608 Spotify : https://open.spotify.com/show/6QRkrWmq21Z66jRJtN2UIu Follow us on X: https://x.com/gov_futures 

Timestamps: 00:00 Teaser and Introduction 02:23 Introduction and Warm-Up 03:33 Understanding DAOs: Good vs. Bad 04:38 Human Coordination in DAOs 08:21 Technological and Human Elements in DAOs 10:36 The Role of AI in DAOs 18:40 Knowledge Systems and Governance 28:46 KOI: Knowledge Organization Infrastructure 43:34 Contribution Systems in DAOs 59:48 Final Thoughts and Quickfire Questions

In this episode of Governance Futures, Eugene and Jamilya speak with Anthony Leutenegger, CEO of Aragon, about tooling, regulation and DAO governance today. We dig into why ownership and control matter more than vague notions of decentralization, and how design choices like Aragon OSx are reshaping the way DAOs govern themselves. We also explore lessons from experiments like Lido’s dual governance, the impact of emerging regulation such as the Clarity Act, and what it could mean if decentralized ownership becomes a legal requirement. In this conversation we also discuss the role of modular systems, incentives, and AI agents in shaping the next generation of governance. This episode is for those questioning what real decentralization means, and how governance in Web3 must evolve to balance founder control, community power, and legal clarity. Some of the materials we mention in the episode: - Aragon documentation: https://docs.aragon.org/ - The Growth Engine: How veLockers & Gauges Drive Value Accrual: https://blog.aragon.org/the-growth-engine-how-velockers-gauges-drive-value-accrual/ - Aragon OSx: https://docs.aragon.org/osx-contracts/1.x/index.html#the_aragon_osx_dao_framework - Anthony's talk at ETH Prague 2025 "Ownership and Governance always needs the right Incentives": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAIA625hLR0 Listen to this and more episodes on all platforms: Apple : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/gov-futures-trailer/id1823028614?i=1000714675608 Spotify : https://open.spotify.com/show/6QRkrWmq21Z66jRJtN2UIu Follow us on X: https://x.com/gov_futures Time-stamps: 00:00 Intro 01:02 Introduction to Governance Futures Podcast 02:39 The Importance of Human-Centered Governance 03:57 Rebuilding Aragon: The Need for Modular Governance 04:18 The Evolution of DAOs and Governance Models 09:57 Decentralization: A Spectrum of Control 12:13 Aragon's Mission and Governance Infrastructure 14:08 Decentralization: Leadership vs. Control 18:39 Challenges of Multisig and On-Chain Governance 21:55 The Role of DAOs as Executors 23:22 Reframing DAOs and Governance Structures 24:48 The Evolution of Aragon and Its Vision 26:29 Introducing Aragon OS X: A Modular Governance Framework 30:03 Dual Governance: Aligning Interests in DAOs 36:05 Regulatory Impact on Governance 43:59 Proactive Governance in a Changing Regulatory Landscape 46:04 Building Adaptive Organizations 47:52 Core Principles of Successful Governance 49:13 Aligning Incentives for Token Holders 51:37 The Role of Trust in Governance 53:00 AI's Impact on Future Governance 57:15 Understanding Gauges in Tokenomics 01:01:06 Challenges in Modular Governance Adoption 01:04:26 Quiz Segment 01:05:32 Outro

In this episode, hosts Jamilya Kamalova and Eugene Leventhal sit down with Rafael Fernández and Shelby Steidl from ZK Sync to unpack one of the most forward-thinking governance frameworks in Web3 today. Rafa is a Director and Governance Lead at the ZKsync Association, where he supports protocol governance design, token mechanics, and operations. His work spans the entire governance system design, from contracts, to legal architecture for regulatory alignment, and scalable processes for decentralization. He brings a background in organizational design and analytics to help ZKsync evolve governance into public infrastructure—credible, composable, and built for the long term. Based in Berlin, he's always ready to share stories of niche too-online lore and previous research on digital swarms. Shelby is the Governance Experience Lead for ZKsync Governance. She is responsible for all things governance UX, resource management & creation, Delegate coordination, and supports with token mechanics development for Token Programs. She previously worked on governance at Radworks (RadicleDAO), bringing 3 years of gov ops experience to help launch and cultivate the ZKsync governance system. Shelby enjoys flat whites, a groovy house beat, and contributing to the grand experiment that is decentralized governance. From their personal journeys into blockchain governance to the challenges of designing systems that balance decentralization with accountability, Rafa and Shelby share the ideas that shaped ZK Sync’s approach. We dive into their use of the Austrian Association model to provide liability protection through opt-in legal membership, the design of a three-body governance system (Token Assembly, Security Council, Guardians), and the importance of creating governance environments that foster participation, mission alignment, and cultural integrity. The discussion goes deep into the mechanics, exploring ZK Sync’s capped minter system and modular token mechanics that enable on-demand minting while embedding safeguards, accountability, and legal enforceability through ZK GPS. The guests share how these systems prevent abuse, measure performance, and keep governance adaptable without sacrificing trustlessness. From DAO evolution and mission-centered safeguards to performance metrics and the future of decentralized decision-making, this conversation offers practical insights for protocol founders, DAO contributors, and governance researchers alike. Whether you’re building in crypto or studying the intersection of blockchain and law, this is a rare look at how to design governance that is as resilient as it is innovative — and why the future may be all about simplifying complexity. Some of the papers we mentioned during the conversation: - "The Swarm and the Formation" by Rafael Fernández https://summerofprotocols.com/research/the-swarm-and-the-formation

- "ZK Nation docs": https://docs.zknation.io/voting-and-delegation/zksync-governance-101#how-are-token-allocation-through-governance-different-at-zksync-than-other-onchain-organizations. Timestamps 00:00 Intro & Teaser 02:57 Origins of Governance in Blockchain 05:37 The Role of Environment in Governance Design 08:22 Creating Safe Spaces for Governance Discussions 11:01 Understanding the Waters of Governance 14:03 The Evolution of DAO Governance Models 16:46 Legal Structures in Governance: The Austrian Association 19:38 ZK Sync's Unique Governance Framework 22:27 On-Chain Enforceability and Accountability 24:57 Mission-Centered Governance and the Role of Guardians 39:58 Guardians and Their Role in Governance 42:16 Decentralized Governance Structure 50:34 Capped Minters and Token Governance 01:00:27 Safeguards and Accountability in Minting Rights 01:04:52 Measuring Governance Performance 01:11:23 The Future of Governance 01:14:00 Quick Fire Quiz - One Word & Conclusion

In this episode, we sit down with Spencer Graham and Nicholas Naraghi, cofounders of Hats Protocol, to explore what it really takes to make DAO governance work. Spencer Graham is a cofounder of Hats Protocol and has been working for five years on making DAOs actually effective. Nicholas Naraghi is a cofounder of Hats Protocol, DAO true believer since 2017, BTC since 2011. Together, they break down the unique strengths of decentralized organizations compared to traditional structures, diving into concepts like hardness, anticapture, trust zones, and modularity. We also discuss the practical challenges DAOs face, from regulatory hurdles to accountability, and how programmable governance frameworks might transform collective decision-making. Finally, we look at the role AI and innovation can play in building more resilient, future-ready decentralized systems. Some of the sources we mention during the episode: - Spencer Graham "Governance is about action, not decision-making" (2022) https://spengrah.mirror.xyz/tGT32p-lA__63rmTXq_OD_iTTDoK-vsUn3QVsnnWmvo - https://docs.hatsprotocol.xyz/ - Spencer Graham "Anticapture" (2022) https://spengrah.mirror.xyz/f6bZ6cPxJpP-4K_NB7JcjbU0XblJcaf7kVLD75dOYRQ - Josh Stark "Atoms, Institutions, Blockchains" (2022) https://stark.mirror.xyz/n2UpRqwdf7yjuiPKVICPpGoUNeDhlWxGqjulrlpyYi0

Timestamps 00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome  04:27 Understanding DAOs and Disruptive Innovation 07:52 Exploring Decentralized Responsibilities 12:37 Defining Decentralization 24:44 Governance vs. Operations in DAOs 32:43 Accountability in DAOs 38:45 The Concept of Hardness in Blockchain 43:23 Regulatory Challenges and Innovation in DAOs 44:13 The Need for Net New Innovation 46:25 Technological and Regulatory Hurdles 48:45 The Promise and Challenges of Modularity 52:38 Introduction to Trust Zones 55:05 Defining Trust Zones and Their Applications 01:02:41 Optimizing DAOs with Trust Zones 01:07:47 The Future of Governance and Trust Zones 01:15:12 Quiz and Closing Remarks