Five Rules for the Good Life Podcast – Details, episodes & analysis

From ripping it up on stage with Orchid to slinging cocktails at one of Canada's top bars, Jayson Green has built a life around making things that matter. On this week’s episode, the musician, bartender, and creative lifer shares his hard-earned Five Rules For Making Stuff. We talk about knowing what not to do, why money should never be your motivator, and how letting your skills catch up to your taste is part of the process. Whether you’re starting a band, opening a bar, or just trying to get that project off the ground, this episode is your DIY pep talk.

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[00:00:00] Darin Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I'm excited to be joined by one of my favorite buds from Brooklyn, Jayon Green, who is the infamous. Frontman for the legendary hardcore band Orchid. He has gone on to front other projects like Cheeseburger and his current solo endeavor, Jayon Green and the Jerk currently has a delicious 12 inch out on DFA records. Most recently, his Toronto based bar, Doc's Green Door Lounge, was named the 15th best bar in all of Canada. He joins me today to share his five rules about making stuff. We talk about having a point of view, the importance of continuing to create, and his guiding principle of what should never be your main motivator. Let's get into the rules. Jayon, so great to see you. Always nice when two ex Brooklynites can chat coming from different parts of the world. Congratulations on your bar, Dock Stream Door Lounge, being named number 15th best bar in all of Canada. Thank you. Not surprised knowing who you are and what we're going to talk about today, but congratulations nonetheless.

[00:01:08] Jayson Surprised. I didn't even know that these lists existed when we were starting off with the bar. The main thing is we're in this neighborhood in Toronto called The Junction, which is pretty far west, and my whole thing was kind of serving the neighborhood as best I could with a place that I wanted to go to. There was a real hunger for something like this to be here, and I'm very happy that people have responded so positively. The neighborhood's really, supportive and the city at large has been super supportive.

[00:01:32] Darin Most people who move to a new country, like you did, would look at the surrounding neighborhood, wish they want a bar and hope someone else would make that for them. But what I've always enjoyed about you and our conversations over the year is that creativity and creating something has always been a part of your life, whether it's fronting a band or developing TV shows, starting a bar, why are you making stuff so important to you?

[00:01:55] Jayson That's all I've ever known. Went to college, I wanted to be a film director, and then I ended up joining this band, Orchid, and we were playing shows and touring every break, and I ended leaving school. And then I was off on this trajectory. The only thing I was doing was singing in this mildly popular hardcore band. Give yourself credit. No, no, back then, when we were doing it, it was a mildly-popular hardcore band, and then, I was just in the world. That band ended, I was in another band with our mutual friend Justin Cherno called Panthers. That band ending and then I looked up, I had no discernible skills. I was just in bands and so this creative life had sustained me for so long. I was kind of thrown into the fire, like this is the way you create the opportunity yourself that's not really presented to you.

[00:02:37] Darin Creating that opportunity, or even knowing that you can create something, is rarer than I expected. Because I come from a similar DIY background as you, it just was intuitive that if you want something and it's not out there, then create it for yourself. How has that fueled everything you've done, starting with being in a hardcore band from now opening a bar?

[00:02:58] Jayson So much of it is you don't know that it's unusual. When I was in college, we were booking the shows. If a band was touring through town, we'd put them up at our college or we'd play at a local VFW hall or whatever it was. And then I moved to New York and I had never even really set foot in Brooklyn before and I moved into this loft in Dumbo and I was like, well, I guess I'll just do it at this loft too, cause it's big enough.

[00:03:17] Darin All time.

[00:03:18] Jayson You don't know that you're not supposed to do that. I mean, there's lots of failures that come along with that, but the arrogance of youth is such a big part of it too, is you just really think you're smarter and more capable than you probably actually are. And that comes with that as something that's sort of beautiful, is that you are able to accomplish a lot of things that probably as an adult, you might be more fearful to try.

[00:03:38] Darin Yes. And I think not knowing what you can and can't do is a big part of getting things done. Yeah. But what I wish I had when I was a little bit younger are some guiding points of when I wanted to make stuff, which is why I'm happy to be talking with you today, because you're going to share with us your five rules for making stuff. And again, band, art project, award-winning bar, children, family, whatever you want to apply it to. I have found that making stuff does start from a couple of core principles. What is your first rule?

[00:04:08] Jayson Know what you don't want to do. That's always been a big one for me. And I think it comes from coming from a punk rock, hardcore background. You see things you don't like more than you see things like.

[00:04:21] Darin Oh yeah.

[00:04:21] Jayson You kind of set things up where you're creating a framework standing against something. I am not willing to cross this line. I won't do this. I won't that and then kind of build it backwards. I find that to be a very helpful way to think about things. And it also avoids the issue of compromise. If you're from the get go saying, say, for example, with the bar, I'm not putting TVs in this place. We're not showing sports. That's one rule right off the top. And then if it comes up later, be like, no, that's a thing I won't do. I won't compromise on it. And this served me for the Orchid Reunions, for building the bar out, saying things that you aren't willing to do, or you find to be corny or not worthwhile, I think is a really great way to get things started in the creative process.

[00:05:05] Darin I agree. And I think that rule number two is the other side of the coin. What's rule number

[00:05:11] Jayson Rule number two is have a point of view. That's kind of the biggest for me. So much of creating anything is being authentic to yourself. It's about being true to your passions and things that you're interested in. And no matter how niche that thing may seem to be, if you're passionate about it, there's probably somebody else who will feel passionate about that same thing as well. People respond to authenticity as opposed to reaching for something that you think people will like, but it isn't coming really from who you are.

[00:05:40] Darin I've always subscribed to the theory of a thousand true fans more than a broad point of view.

[00:05:46] Jayson Think you find people respond to passion. You'll watch a documentary about a guy who makes sushi for a living and you may have no interest in sushi but watching this person's passion it's infectious and you'll find that people will respond to things that maybe they didn't even know that they were interested in if it feels like it's coming from this really passionate authentic place.

[00:06:07] Darin One of the things about watching people who are so skilled and so talented is that it does create this internal yearning for you to go out and make something similar, but unfortunately, sometimes you don't have the exact skills to make what you want. What's rule number three.

[00:06:22] Jayson You have to let your abilities catch up to your taste. This was a big lesson for me, especially after Orchid, which seemed like a thing that kind of magically fell into place. And the next Project Panthers was really just rode on the back of that, and it seemed to all kind of click together. And then after those things ended, I found myself wandering a bit and wondering and also feeling afraid to put things out into the world.

[00:06:47] Darin Hmm

[00:06:47] Jayson my inner critic and also the outer critics.

[00:06:49] Darin You can just say Brooklyn at the time.

[00:06:51] Jayson Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, a mutual friend of ours, who actually helped me design the bar here, Michael Vadino. I was talking to him at a bar once and I was working on something and I showed it to someone, another mutual friend, and they were very critical. They said, don't release this, You'll be embarrassed by this. And then I told Michael that, and he said, don't listen to these people, put it out, keep making work. It's all gonna click together at a certain point. And the things that are failures, no one's gonna remember except for you probably. You know, what's so bad about putting something creative into the world, good or bad? It's about honing your abilities, because all these things are a huge learning curve.

[00:07:30] Darin 100%

[00:07:31] Jayson And then the problem is I have so many friends that fall into this trap and they ever put anything out because they're so afraid of it not being perfect.

[00:07:38] Darin Mhm.

[00:07:39] Jayson But it's never gonna be perfect. You have to be okay with this idea that it's not gonna be a perfect, it's gonna be this imperfect thing, and then you're gonna move on to the next imperfect thing and then to the imperfect thing. I just think it's such an important lesson is to just make stuff. Do it. Finish projects. Start something and finish it.

[00:07:54] Darin The biggest advice when I talk to people about making something is get started and be consistent and just keep at it. But if the option is to not make something or to make something, it's always going to be the latter. Yeah. But that's why I love having people like Michael in my life and other people, which ties directly into your rule number four.

[00:08:13] Jayson This is Big Epping Michael, but surround yourself with people smarter than you and listen to them. So this is a lesson that I think is also incredibly important and I learned from another mutual friend of ours, James Murphy. We were working on a failed television.

[00:08:25] Darin I remember when you were working on this.

[00:08:27] Jayson And it got very, very far along, and then it did not work out. It was a heartbreaking experience, but one I wouldn't trade. But as we were working on it, we were writing the script together, James and I, and I saw that he had a book by a writer that I really loved called Sam Lipsight. And I said, oh, I love that writer. And he said, well, he's a friend of mine. And I said, well, why don't we have him come and help us out? And James said, you know, this is exactly the right move because the best way to operate, if you're not an expert on something, bring in an expert and then listen to what they say to you, the way you should look at all of these things as if you are a film director, you have the vision and then you have these different departments, it's always collaborative, it is bringing people in who are very good at their job and taking their advice and getting out of their way. At the bar, I love to drink and I know what I like to drink, what style of cocktails, but I don't know how to make a cocktail. I brought in someone who really was incredible at it and I let him go for it. And I stayed out of his way and you let these people do what they're good at. And you learn a lot from that. To know that you're not the smartest guy in the room is a really important thing. If you think you're the smartest kind of room, you're in a s**t f*****g room. That's probably the truth.

[00:09:33] Darin Sometimes people don't want to share the credit. Yeah. Sometimes there isn't enough budget, or you think there's not enough budget or enough to share down the road. But I think that actually ties into rule number five.

[00:09:43] Jayson This kind of ties it all together for me and all the rules fall underneath it is money shouldn't ever be a motivator for anything you work.

[00:09:49] Darin Mm-hmm

[00:09:50] Jayson The unfortunate truth is that we live in capitalism. There's no way around it. It's like asking a fish, why are you talking about water all the time? I mean, we're in it. So you have to exist in the system, but to use that as your end goal is a death knell. Need to think about making art for the sake of the art itself. If you're thinking about, if I do it this way, this is gonna make me money. You're gonna come out with something that no one likes. You won't even like it. Or even worse than that is something everyone likes. Think about movies that get 100% of Rotten Tomatoes. It has to appeal to everyone, and who wants that? What is the point of that? Those things shouldn't exist in the world.

[00:10:26] Darin As far as I'm concerned. And all the projects I've ever loved, it's very clear that money wasn't at the start of it. And those were lucky enough to stay at it and a million other things that fell into place. Eventually made money off the art that they created.

[00:10:38] Jayson And that's the thing is you surround yourself with smart, talented people. You make something that you really care about. You're going to find an audience.

[00:10:45] Darin Jayon, I cannot thank you enough. If people want to visit the bar or listen to any of your bands, where can they go?

[00:10:51] Jayson The bar is called Doc's Green Door Lounge. It is in the West End of Toronto. It's at 3106 Dundas Street West, and we're open all day, we're a cafe. We've got a wine shop in the back, we've got cocktails, and if you want to listen to my music, everything's on digital. I have a 12-inch that came out on DFA called Jayon Green and the Jerks. It's a lot of the LCD people, and Orchid has been playing some shows, and we may play a few more coming up.

[00:11:17] Darin Well, hopefully I'll get to see you in Los Angeles sooner than later. Jayon, congrats on everything. Thank you very much, Darin. It's good to see.

I sit down with Jenny Goodman and Alex McCrery, the co-founders of TILIT and the creators of The Utility Show, to talk about what it means to build something that didn’t exist before. We dig into how they’ve redefined chef wear, what makes a trade show worth showing up for, and how they stay grounded in community while continuing to grow. Their five rules cover everything from designing with purpose to staying focused, and why authenticity isn’t a buzzword, it’s the baseline. If you’ve ever wanted to start something new, rethink how you connect with your audience, or want to know what it takes to create with intention, this episode’s for you.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

(0:00 - 3:04)

Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today I am joined by two industry innovators who have changed the way we think about chefware and culinary conferences.

I sit down with Jenny Goodman, the CEO and co-founder of Tillet, and Alex McCreary, the CCO, co-founder of Tillet. They're also the two brains behind the Utility Conference, an independent-minded alternative to some of the larger, more corporate conferences that restaurant world has come to know. We chat about their design process, how they stay true to their original vision, and how they keep grounded and their focus clear so they can build bigger things for the community that loves them.

Let's get into the rules. Jenny and Alex, thank you for taking the time to sit down to chat with me. Have you recovered from this year's very successful Utility Conference? No, like no.

Yes, but like in the best possible way. We're still buzzing over here and I'm still catching up on sleep because it is a marathon, not a sprint. As you brought together so many people for this new type of industry conference, what were some of the inspiring things that you saw from other curators in the industry? We're always inspired by the industry and that's why we wanted to bring a lot of different elements under one roof.

A lot of conferences that we see are a lot of trade shows in general. It's like we wanted to be the anti-trade show, right? Yes, we're all here for commerce and to connect and to be in community, but the programming should be really freaking awesome. So I think we took a lot of elements from a lot of events that we've just loved over the years and brought them all together.

The pitch competition was inspired by us actually winning a grant from Chase 10 years ago. Some of the trends towards healthy living in the industry, I think are super inspiring. And this year we added in a run in the morning where Philips here from Comedore down in Austin came up and led a run.

Instead of the old days of having a party, a trade show, and then getting plastered after together, there's these other things that people are doing that are building community while being healthy. And so I think that stuff's really inspiring. It seems that you have brought to life the best type of feedback loop where the inspiration just keeps pushing yourselves and other people forward to build on what's working, to build what's inspiring, and to create new things out of that.

One of the biggest keys to success in any business and a relationship, anything, is your ability to listen and absorb and respond. That's one of the keys that has been our business is that we listen to our customer, that we work with our customer, our community. It's more than just a customer.

And that's how you grow is you're actually working with people and not just saying, oh, this is what people should be doing, or this is what people should be wearing, or this is how people should be interfacing with our product. We're actually doing it all together. It is easy for someone on the outside to look at what you have built across the board and just go, how did that even get started? So I'm so excited that you are here today to share your five rules for creating things that didn't exist before.

The very first rule is a similar starting point of where I begin all of my creative journeys. What's rule number one? Build what you wish existed for yourself. And I think we've done that with utility.

(3:04 - 5:45)

We showed up at traditional trade shows and didn't see ourselves represented by the folks who were walking the floor or the folks who were also there with us and felt that community and hospitality is so fun. And the way that we all normally come together and gather in a dining room is celebratory and it's all real authentic connections. And that just wasn't happening at the trade shows that were currently taking place.

And so we thought there has to be one that we actually want to show up to, that other independent brands want to show up to, and that other independent restaurants want to show up to. So that's where we started with a test case for utility with our preheat back in 2023. And that was such a success and a good proof of concept that for the last two years, we've done a full-blown trade show for independent brands and restaurants, which has been amazing.

It's been a beautiful thing to watch grow. I remember the first one. From the very beginning, the idea and the impetus of Tila was that I wanted better, cooler, more functional, more pride-inducing clothing.

I was in a position where I had gone from being a chef in a big restaurant with a bunch of other cooks that were all wearing the same goofy outfit to being in someone's house by myself wearing one goofy outfit and just felt really silly, a little bit embarrassed. And some of those things didn't add up to me with what the culture of being a cool chef was. And I just thought that was silly and displaced.

If there's a jacket that I think I want, but doesn't exist, then we find a way to make it and it becomes a Tila product. Sometimes that's the best products are the ones that you actually want. Seeing something out in the real world that isn't quite made for your particular use can be inspiring, but also frustrating because then you have to transfer what you like about it into something that works for you.

What's rule number two? Rule number two is to design with utility first. It's a Cortana name, Tila comes from the word utility. Obviously, you want amazing, beautiful, aesthetic things, but if it doesn't have a function, then it doesn't really need to exist.

And there's plenty of that too out there, s**t that just hangs on your wall. Our goal and our idea is that everything starts with a reason, whether it's a better pair of pants for women in the kitchen because they just don't exist, or a jumpsuit or an apron with moisture wicking and repellent qualities to it, it has to work. It has to stand the test of time.

It has to be able to be washed a hundred thousand times because that's what people in the kitchen are doing. And then from there, it's like, yeah, let's do all the other fun things. Let's make it streetwear.

Let's make it temporary. Let's make it the baddest thing out there. But if it doesn't work, then you shouldn't even begin messing with all the other pieces of it.

And once you start messing with it, and once you start borrowing from different parts of other products or other things that are being created, it can be very hard to hold on to what is your rule number three. Rule number three is be authentic. The big A word.

(5:45 - 5:48)

The big A word. I know. And it's such a buzzword sometimes.

(5:48 - 7:12)

I know. I know. I cringe a little bit, but we've been talking about authenticity since we started the company 12 years ago because authentically we needed these products.

Alex was a chef. I met him working front of house. We are authentically hospitality people.

And when we looked at what was happening in the chef apparel industry and in workwear for chefs, it was not designed by people who worked in restaurants. It was not thought of by people who knew this community. That's really where we come to this lens of authentically knowing and loving this product because we lived and breathed it.

And similar with utility and the trade show is the big, large, huge conglomerate trade shows that are out there for the hospitality industry are not run by industry insiders who do know what the day to day struggles are of an independent restaurant or independent brand. When you want to be in community with somebody, it has to start from a place of understanding that community authentically. Coming from inside the world, being both back of house, in front of house, and being authentic to your mission has allowed you to grow your rule number four.

Rule number four is build community. From the beginning, that's what we were. Let's hang out with more friends.

Let's make more friends. Let's spread the love. Let's share the ideas.

And that's exactly what we've done. And I think to Jenny's credit in creating utility, it's all about community. And I think one of the biggest takeaways from this year was how many people, brands, exhibitors, speakers walked away from it feeling that community.

(7:13 - 8:33)

It's not because we put the word community all over the trade show. It's because they were there and they felt it. That's just such a powerful feeling to say, oh s**t, we accomplished what we set out to do.

Obviously, always continue to build and strengthen and grow your community, but to have them recognize that's why it's there. It's not there as the shopping experience or this way to make money as a small business. It's more.

When we think about what makes a brand and what makes a defensible brand, it's people buying in because you've created something that makes them feel something. And that's what we believe in our trying to do. It's the same thing when you go to a great restaurant.

It's the same thing about great hospitality. You don't necessarily remember every single dish and every single ingredient, but you remember how you felt sat at that table and you had that great meal and you had that delicious food and you had that amazing hospitality experience. And so we as a brand, knowing that our community welcomes us into their dining rooms, feeling that way, it's so important for us to create that community experience for folks too.

So they remember how Tillett and Utility made them feel when we were there on their back during a long shift or there to provide some fun during a weekend of intense trade shows. I can only imagine coming out of Utility, coming out of a weekend with so many conversations, the amount of new ideas and inspiration and how you're thinking, we can do this project, we can do that project, we can do this. Which ties directly into rule number five, which I think once you master, you can actually grow even bigger.

(8:33 - 8:41)

Focus, baby. It's one of our core tenants from day one. I think we've seen it in many iterations and carried it throughout the brand in many ways.

(8:41 - 9:26)

My first real restaurant gig was my first not quick service slinging tacos gig. Had the word focus tiled into the wall on the kitchen line so that while you were plating up all your dishes, you were deeply focusing. And I think we've carried it through to what we do with Tillett, to what we do with Utility.

And it's something you got to keep going back to because you can easily find yourself straying and say, oh, why don't we do this for some ancillary business? And it's like, wait, no, let's bring it back. It finds its way into our branding and our apparel, but it's always in our heads and part of the business. People ask us all the time, why don't you just sell streetwear? Why don't you go after this customer? And I'm always like, because we focus.

We're laser focused on our messaging, on our community, on who we're designing product for first and foremost. And if other folks adopt that because these pants are sick, they're really cool. They work great in the kitchen.

(9:26 - 9:59)

You could also wear them on the street. Great. But for us, our focus is hospitality, chef, community.

It's just, that's it. We always have to keep coming back to it. It's really incredible.

And you can see the success in your focus and authenticity in the community you've built. It really is an inspiring way for people who want to go out and create their own thing. If people want to order clothing from Tillet or get more information on next year's Utility, where can they go? You can find us on the worldwide web at TilletNYC.com. Follow us at TilletNYC on Instagram and all the channels.

(9:59 - 10:14)

Al, you want to do Utility? Yeah, UtilityShow.com. Third weekend of May in 2026, mark your calendar because it's going to be even bigger and better. Jenny and Alex, congratulations on everything. Thank you for sitting down with me and sharing your five rules.

Thanks, Darin. Thank you, Darin, for having us. Always a pleasure.

Darin sits down with Thomas McNaughton and Ryan Pollnow, the pasta-obsessed legends behind San Francisco’s Flour + Water Hospitality Group. They share their five rules for cooking pasta like a pro, including why your water needs way more salt than you think, why bronze dies matter, and how not to mess up fresh noodles (spoiler: it includes drying them a little). It’s part masterclass, part love letter to carbs, and all delicious. If your pantry has a box of pasta in it (and let’s be honest, it does), this one’s for you.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Darin, Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, we chat with our old friends, Thomas McNaughton and Ryan Pollnow, co-chefs of the Flour and Water Hospitality Group up in San Francisco, which includes the legendary Flour& Water, the incredible Penny Roma and the recently opened Flour And Water Pizzeria. We chat about their undying love for pasta. The amazing amount of shapes that they make in their restaurants and they share their tips on how to cook pasta perfectly at home every single time. Let's get into the rules. Thomas and Ryan, so great to be sitting down again with you guys and congratulations on the Flower and Water Pizza Shop for nothing but great things and yet another reason why I got to get up north to check it out and see it and see you guys.

[00:00:55] Thomas Yeah, appreciate you having us again.

[00:00:57] Darin You know, I first met you guys back in 2012 through the Noisette Food and Music Festival that we put on, had you guys be part of. And when I first met you, it was really all about the pasta. Can you talk to me about how pasta has really been a guiding force and North Star for you guys throughout your cooking career?

[00:01:14] Thomas You know, when we opened Flower and Water in 2009, and it was really cemented very early on at the heart of the menu was our pasta program. About nine months in, we opened a dough room to handle volume, and it's just kind of been a roller coaster ever since.

[00:01:29] Darin Now, is it true that you make a hundred unique pasta shapes?

[00:01:34] Ryan We've exaggerated that a touch. We're almost at a hundred, which every year we're adding to the repertoire. The moment you start diving into the history of pasta and regionality, it's just the type of thing that really intrigues Tom and I as.

[00:01:48] Thomas The educational side of cooking. The humble nature of Ryan will always come out. I think that our manual's at like 92, 94 right now.

[00:01:55] Darin Okay. All right. I mean, that's a rounding error.

[00:01:58] Thomas Damn near. Let's call it damn near. Yeah. Yeah, it's called damn near a hundred. You said a hundred, he made it sound like 40. It's about 92.

[00:02:05] Darin Yeah, yeah, let's call it 92 with plus or minus of 8, and that gets us to 100.

[00:02:11] Thomas And there's a trust in diners, you know, there's so many of these odd shapes that people can't even pronounce. Yes. But once you put it into that pasta category, put it within that box, there's trust that's already established to give it a try.

[00:02:24] Darin There's something about being a diner at a restaurant that makes pasta and eating the way it's prepared in a restaurant that somehow differs from the way that I cook it at home. It's somehow intimidating. Why do you think people don't always cook pasta as well as you can at a restaurants?

[00:02:40] Thomas Part of the reason why we're here today is to really talk about simple tricks and tips to be able to do that. And when you separate into dried and fresh pasta, we always say when you learn these little tricks and you just practice and practice, it makes amazing meal.

[00:02:56] Darin Let's get into five rules for cooking pasta perfectly.

[00:03:01] Ryan Rules one through three, they're all related. And growing up, I experienced the exact opposite of these things. No offense to my parents, I love them. They're lovely people. They hopefully are gonna tune into this to learn something. Seasoning your pasta water and using the correct amount is really important, especially extruded pastas. It's just flour and water that have been pressed through bronze dyes. There's no salt inside the noodle itself. So making sure that your pasta water is heavily seasoned. For us, it's a quarter cup of salt for every four quarts of water, which seems really high. But when you're blanching anything or cooking pasta, it's important that you're introducing salt in that early stage. So seasoning your pasta waters, super important.

[00:03:41] Darin How does rule?

[00:03:41] Thomas To tie into rule one. So one of the most important parts when you cook at home, when you're boiling that heavily seasoned water and you add your pasta to it and you start to cook, you always want to reserve a small amount of that starchy pasta water. That starchy water plays such an integral role at our restaurant in both loosening sauces when they become too tight. But also stabilizing them. So we do a lot of like Northern Italian butter emulsions that starts you water is so important to help stabilize it. And so never strain your pasta water into the sink and allow the entire thing to go down the drain. You always wanna reserve a little bit to cook in the sauce itself.

[00:04:25] Darin Now, just as a side tip, maybe I'm nervous about using glass or something that might shatter when I put boiling hot water into it. What would you recommend as a vessel? The easiest way.

[00:04:35] Thomas Is just to ladle.

[00:04:37] Darin Mm-hmm.

[00:04:37] Thomas Some out as soon as you're ready to strain. Just ladle a little bit out, you can reserve it in any vessel, whether it's a mason jar. Pyrex. Whatever you have. Definitely don't recommend sticking in a glass drinking cup. You're always gonna end up with crunchy pasta.

[00:04:52] Darin Rule number three is something I used to do the reverse of. And it wasn't until a few years ago that I learned this tip and this rule that it did take my pasta to a different game. What's rule three?

[00:05:03] Ryan Most people are right there with you and they forget about the important marriage of noodle and sauce. So rule three is always finishing your pasta in the pan sauce itself. Last minute of cooking that happens in the pansauce is gonna allow for the noodles to adhere to the sauce or the sauce to adhere the noodles. And it's important that they have time together.

[00:05:24] Darin We're cooking pasta. I know there's always a difference between cooking dry pasta and fresh pasta. What's rule number four about cooking fresh pasta?

[00:05:31] Thomas Every fresh noodle has to go through a certain dehydration process. And that can be very, very brief. And we'll give a really easy example of popper deli noodle. We want that noodle to behave like leather when it's ready to cook. And that means it's completely pliable, it won't crack, it won' break, it's not brittle. When you have too fresh of a noodle and you go to cook it, the moisture content of that noodle will allow it to warp, so it'll pull, it'll have thin parts. When you're rolling out your pasta and you have a long sheet of pasta or pappardelle, if you wanna cut it into eight inch lengths, you take the first initial eight inch length and you just dust it with semolina. You can let it sit on a cutting board for five minutes. And then you roll those noodles up and you can cut them into one-inch sections for a really wide papardelli. That's so integral to how the noodle cooks.

[00:06:27] Darin For those who are not always gonna have a chance to get fresh pasta, even though if you can make it a home or buy it, it's always a treat. What's the final and fifth rule when it comes to cooking dried pasta?

[00:06:36] Ryan The most readily available for anyone at any market grocery store is the Southern Italian style, which is an extruded dried pasta. There's one very, very important thing to look out for when you're purchasing a dried extruded pasta, and that is that it goes through bronze dyes. So bronze is a very porous material. As the pasta dough passes through that dye, it's leaving an imprint of texture. And for us, texture is everything when it comes to good pasta. And that was one of the leading characteristics that made us want to get into the consumer packaged goods. To the retail world was introducing something that we do in our dough room every single day, extruding pasta through bronze dyes and going through a slow dry that landed us in market.

[00:07:17] Darin I can't thank you guys enough for sending some of those package dry pastas to refill our pantry. It really meant a lot to my family and I. Of course. If people don't want to cook pasta perfectly at home now that they have your rules, where can they go to get your pasta and have you make it for them?

[00:07:34] Thomas Based in Bay Area, we're now in 350 grocery stores. And you can also go online to Flower and Water Foods and you can buy it direct from us.

[00:07:44] Ryan And if you want us to do all of the work, you can come to our restaurants in San Francisco. Our two pasta-centric restaurants are both in the Mission District. Flower and Water, which opened up 16 years ago, is on Harrison and 20th. And then a short one block walk away from that, we have Penny Roma. And Penny Roma does a little bit more of classic Italian pastas, where Flower and Waters are a little bit more experimental. But seven nights a week, we are cooking fresh and extruded pastas at both those restaurants.

[00:08:10] Darin It's as perfect as pasta is going to get. Thomas and Ryan, congratulations on everything. Congratulations on the pizza shop, the restaurants, all of your future endeavors. I can't wait to get back up North to have food and a meal with you guys really soon.

[00:08:24] Thomas Darin, so appreciate the conversation.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Welcome to the first episode of Five Rules for the Good Life Podcast—the audio companion to the newsletter. In each episode, a guest joins me to share one topic—how they eat, host, travel, create, or just move through the world with a little more intention (with good snacks)—and the five rules they live by. It’s less self-help, more lived-in advice from people who know what they’re doing and have made it their business to do so. These will roll out alongside the essays, whenever the timing’s right, so please enjoy the debut episode with Peter Som!

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Darin, Welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I am joined by Peter Som, award-winning fashion director, culinary creator, and lifestyle expert, whose new book, Family Style, Elegant Everyday Recipes Inspired by Home and Heritage, is out now. We sat down today for him to chat about the cooking that he grew up with from his grandmother and mother, and he shared his five rules on how to host a stress-free dinner party. Let's get into the rules.

[00:00:33] The Good Life - Weezer Snippet

[00:00:36 ] Darin Peter, congratulations on Family Style. It's a gorgeous cookbook and a real inspiration for throwing dinner parties at home. How do you feel about it being out in the world?

[00:00:46] Peter I feel great. It's three years of work, it's kind of really gratifying to actually see it out there in people's hands. You know, coming from a fashion where you do four collections a year and you're cranking stuff out, working on something for three years is a slow burn, but I feel so happy about it.

[00:01:01] Darin Your history with dinner parties really starts with the family gatherings of your grandmother and mother when you were a kid. Any inspiration from those types of meals that you've carried with you into an adult life?

[00:01:14] Peter Absolutely, my grandmother threw lots of dinner parties, so did my mom. They both kind of got it down to a science, you know, and they never seem to be stressed, and I think that is the most important thing. But yeah, I kind of have gotten it down to my sort of five golden rules of how to throw a dinner party.

[00:01:29] Darin Well, let's get into those golden rules because you have become known for your legendary dinner parties at home and abroad. What is the first rule of throwing a dinner party?

[00:01:39] Peter The first rule really is to keep it simple. The food, the drinks, the table, there's no need, unless you are some extravagant crafter or you make ice sculptures, to go crazy. So keep it simple. Remember that people, if they're coming to your home, they're really coming to see you. And the food is an added, hopefully delicious benefit.

[00:01:59] Darin You know, a lot of people can get intimidated by what they see on Instagram, trying to level up their setting game and forget about the food. What's rule number two about

[00:02:08] Peter Coming into somebody's home and seeing a beautiful table laid out is always, you know, with candles and everything is the best, but you don't have to go crazy. I love a table runner. You know, it sort of gives you the tablecloth effect but it's smaller, easier to manage than a full tableclath and flowers, keep it simple. I mean, I am a big fan of a bunch of bud vases that just going down the middle of the table. It makes you look like you're just a master florist when all you've done is maybe run to the deli. and take apart a bouquet and just put them in. It doesn't take that much. And I mean, for flowers, just make sure they're chin height so people can see across the table to each other. But again, simplicity is always key.

[00:02:48] Darin And who said that deconstruction wasn't back as a design trend? The atmosphere is really important as well. And sometimes when you walk in, it's too bright, it is too dark, but you have a rule about how the light should be set.

[00:03:01] Peter I should have made this probably the first rule because to me this is like big, this is important. Dim all the lights. Nobody wants to feel like they're eating at a CVS or a Walgreens. If you have overhead lights, turn them off or dim them super low. Bring out candles. Everyone looks stunning in candlelight. I'm telling you, everybody just looks gorgeous. I mean, everyone's serving Marie Antoinette, you know, playing cards or whatever she's doing. The thing is, think about your favorite restaurant. What's the vibe? Like, what's the lighting? And try to imitate that. So really dim the lights. It really will instantly set a mood and all you've done is turn a dial on your wall.

[00:03:35] Darin Amazing. I have run into this next issue where I take too much on, especially in the kitchen, and I feel that I need to do four, five, six, seven courses. What's rule number four for keeping it smooth and easy in the Thank you for watching.

[00:03:48] Peter Rule number four is a big one because this is about the food and focus, focus, focus, do three courses, do four. That's all you need to do. I always say that make sure you're maybe your main course is your star. That's the one that you're putting the most work into. The other two can either be make a head or Everything is already prepped and ready to go if it's a salad, and then you just toss it together. I say in the cookbook, you're not the Delta Lounge. I mean, you don't need to serve eight different things. Just remember that people are there for the company and the food is a secondary, but hopefully very delicious reason that everyone's there.

[00:04:24] Darin Yeah, unless your intention is to hide out in the kitchen, which I have been known to do, three or four dishes is more than enough because then you don't see the people if you're spending all your time cooking.

[00:04:33] Peter You don't want to be super stressed, you know, you want to set the mood, not just the lighting, but also with how you are. So you don't wanna be stressed. Everyone should have a good time, including the host.

[00:04:42] Darin A great way not to be stressed really comes together in rule number five. You have to be very particular about how you execute it.

[00:04:48] Peter Yes, I call this help I need somebody. If people offer to bring something and you're feeling a little stressed out, take them up on the offer. If you have a friend who's coming who is an amazing baker, you know, if they want to bake something, say yes, just say yes. It takes one thing off your plate and you can just focus on everything else. Even if somebody obviously brings wine, that's perfect. It's a dinner party. People are coming to your home. It's not a restaurant. There's not waiters and dishwashers and everybody around. So if people want to help, I would say take it.

[00:05:17] Darin Well, Peter, congratulations. If you want to learn more about these rules and more about the recipes in your book, where can they go and how can they follow along with what you're up to?

[00:05:26] Peter You can go to petersom.com to order my cookbook and look at tons of great recipes and lots of interesting articles on design, fashion, travel, all of the above.

[00:05:35] Darin Thank you so much. This has been five rules to throw a stressless dinner party with Peter Somm. See you next time.

[00:05:43] The Good Life - Weezer Snippet

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Darin is joined by author and content creator Danny Freeman to talk about his new cookbook, Italianish: Modern Twists on Classic Italian Flavors, out August 26. They dive into how his grandma shaped his love for Italian cooking, why tradition is meant to evolve, and what it means to bring creativity into the kitchen without losing its soul. Danny shares his Five Rules for Modernizing Italian food, from changing up formats to embracing shortcuts, and even using an ingredient rarely seen in a nonna’s kitchen. It’s a warm, honest conversation about honoring where you come from while cooking for the life you’re living now. If you’ve ever wanted to shake up a classic red sauce or make a lasagna your own, this one’s for you.

A message from the Independent Hospitality Coalition for those being affected by ICE raids in Los Angeles:

Attention restaurant owners, be prepared. Thank you to everyone who has shared information that has allowed us to plan.As if restaurant owners and hospitality workers did not have enough to worry about. Our kitchens are what they are because of are immigrant community. ICE is plucking people from our community in the name of law and order, we know the truth.History will remember this moment.

Un mensaje de la Independent Hospitality Coalition para quienes están siendo afectados por las redadas de ICE en Los Ángeles:

Atención dueños de restaurantes: prepárense. Gracias a todos los que han compartido información que nos ha permitido organizarnos.

Como si los dueños de restaurantes y trabajadores de hospitalidad no tuvieran ya suficientes preocupaciones. Nuestras cocinas son lo que son gracias a nuestra comunidad inmigrante. ICE está arrancando a personas de nuestra comunidad en nombre de la ley y el orden —pero nosotros conocemos la verdad.

La historia recordará este momento.

[00:00:00] Darin Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, we are chatting with author and content creator, Danny Freeman, whose new book, Italianish, Modern Twists on Classic Italian Flavors, comes out on August 26th. We have a. Fun conversation about his deep love and deep roots tied to Italian cooking. We talked about how he honors his grandmother's approach in the kitchen, how he's updated some of his favorite dishes for his family and a secret ingredient that you shouldn't be afraid to use when cooking some of your favorite Italian recipes. Let's get into the rules. Danny, it's so nice to meet you. Congratulations on your second book, Italian-ish modern twist on classic Italian flavor. How does book number two feel compared to book number one?

[00:00:54] Danny It's exciting. It's very exciting. I would say it was easier in some ways because I had been through it before, but a lot harder in other ways. My first book was really a manual on how to make fresh pasta, which is something I have done a million times. This is a more traditional cookbook in that it's got soup, salad, appetizers, desserts. I was coming up with a hundred plus recipes from scratch and making them all over and over again and testing them, so it was exciting, but it a lot of work.

[00:01:20] Darin I have to imagine like any sort of first album you get to pull from a whole lifetime of recipes and stories and experiences. And the second one is usually coming a lot faster and with pretty much all new stuff.

[00:01:30] Danny Definitely. I mean, for both books, I pulled a lot from my childhood and food that I ate when I was growing up, but I couldn't reuse stories and recipes in the second book that I used up in the first one.

[00:01:40] Darin Whenever I've worked on cooking shows in the past, I had Italian recipes. If we had any sort of variation, people would lose their minds, which I know something that you had to deal with a ton of times, but when you go to Italy, the whole country's variations, how do you handle that type of, let's say viewer and reader feedback?

[00:01:58] Danny I get that all the time. I love cooking Italian-American food, but I also like giving it a twist. I mean, the book is called Italian-ish because it's not perfectly traditional. So I get a lot of feedback from people who love that. And then I get lot of from people who are very traditional and think you can never deviate at all from the food that they ate when they were growing up. But honestly, I believe that that's the way we should be eating food. Food should be exciting. It should make it work for your life. So I am very comfortable with people giving me a hard time about some of the things that I make, but I promise I'm never coming to anyone's house and forcing them to cook my way. I'm just offering my take on things.

[00:02:32] Darin And there's only so many classic red sauce recipes you can make. And most of those classic ones have been perfected. So you got to try something new. You got to put your own spin on it. Exactly. I love in your videos and in the book and a lot of the stories, how much you incorporate your family, your husband, your kids, and how important it is to cook for them. Why does that matter so much to you to bring your family into your kitchen and to everything you do?

[00:02:54] Danny I have a one-year-old and a four-year old. They are... Big inspiration for this book. I really started getting seriously into cooking when my grandmother passed away and my first daughter was born. And I was sort of at this life moment where I was reflecting on a lot of my traditions growing up and food that we ate, but also thinking a lot about, well, what am I gonna pass on to my children and what are the traditions I'm going to make for them? That had such a big impact on my food and the way I cook, drawing from my past, but thinking about how do I make it modern for my kids? How do I bring them in? How do we make it fun for them, how do we expose them to lots of different foods? The cookbook is a lot about taking those flavors that I loved growing up, but trying them in a new way. All of that was floating around in my brain as I was writing this book, and also just trying to get dinner on the table every single night with the kids.

[00:03:38] Darin I love taking something that you grew up with, these classic Italian recipes from your grandmother and making them your own. So let's get into your five rules for modernizing Italian food. And the first one is something that I'd like to do for my family. What is your rule one?

[00:03:53] Danny Rule one, every tradition is just an innovation that stuck. The food that my grandmother made, that my great grandparents ate, my great great grandparents made, they're just trying to get food on the table, trying to use the ingredients that they had. That's how it was throughout Italy, using fresh ingredients that were available, things that they could get cheaply. It's only over time that we have now said it has to be done exactly this way every single time. Families were trying different things, and then some of those became traditions that we now eat. So I try and keep that in mind now when I'm cooking. All of these things that I'm trying, Some of them may become traditions for my family, even if they haven't been in the past. And I think that people should honor and respect the food that they like, of course, but be open to trying something a different way that works for them, even if it's a little bit different than what they've done before.

[00:04:36] Darin I love your approach of adding in new or variations of an ingredient to create your own take on a dish. And another way to do this is to take familiar flavors and change how it's presented. What is rule number two?

[00:04:49] Danny Changing the form of a traditional dish can make it feel fresh. I did a lot of this in Italian-ish because this is a trick that I use a lot when I'm cooking for my family. If I think of a great meal that my kids like, like a lasagna, I don't necessarily have time to make that every night. Or as often as I'd like, but you could take it in a new form, the lasagna soup, where you know they're gonna like the flavors, but it's faster, easier. Another favorite of mine from the book is an Orecchiette and broccoli rabe soup with sausage. I love that pasta dish, it's very traditional. And I love to make it as a soup because it can last all week. Very homey in the winter. A lot of times I make salads that are inspired by other dishes. In the cookbook, I have a beef brujole inspired salads. You know you're already gonna like it, because you know you like those flavors, but it feels new and exciting because it's a different format.

[00:05:35] Darin While rule number one and rule number two deal with using new ingredients and approaches to modernize Italian cooking, I believe that by truly practicing rule number three, it allows you to push your cooking in an even more modern direction. What is your third rule?

[00:05:51] Danny Rule number three, focus on simple, fresh ingredients. Obviously, I did not invent that rule. That's really critical in Italian cooking. Think of something like a caprese salad. It's very simple. Tomato, mozzarella, basil. But if you're using really great tomatoes in summer and fresh basil, that's really all you need. Maybe just a little salt, olive oil, vinegar, you're good to go. When I was writing this book... My family spent a summer in Italy. Love it. And this was my first time in Italy with a baby and a toddler. In the past, my husband and I had gone to nice restaurants. We'd go to wine bars, we'd sit and drink. Obviously it was a little bit different with young kids. And so we were eating a lot more quick meals, street food, bread and cheese. And that really helped me focus on just, all right, we can get really good produce and that can be a meal and we don't need a whole lot else. Just few simple things.

[00:06:35] Darin One of the greatest joys about traveling with children is cooking on vacation and no better country than Italy.

[00:06:42] Danny Yes, we spent a few days in Genoa.

[00:06:44] Darin Hmm

[00:06:45] Danny where basil pesto comes from, focaccia comes from. And you could just go down the street and get freshly made pesto and freshly made focacia and have a meal and that's all you really needed.

[00:06:53] Darin When you think of Italian food, you think you gotta roll up the sleeves, start with all the raw ingredients, but rule number four helps you save a little bit of time and a little stress in the kitchen.

[00:07:03] Danny Rule number four, not everything has to be made from scratch. I am a person who loves to cook and I really became known for making fresh pasta. But if you're cooking on a Wednesday night, you're not making fresh pasta, fresh sauce, grinding your own meat for sausage. You're not doing all of that. I really tried in the book to make the recipes really versatile where you can sub in different ingredients. For example, I have one. It's an appetizer. It's a meatball sub muffin. Got meatballs, sauce, wrapped in the pastry. I say in the books, you can make the dough. I have the recipe for the dough, I had the recipe for the meatballs and the recipe for the sauce. But you can swap out any one or all three of those ingredients for something very quick. So focus on things that you want to make from scratch, but don't be afraid to sub in some other items.

[00:07:43] Darin There's never been a better time of artisanal Italian product makers, even in the States, for making great dried pasta and cheeses. I find more in

[00:07:51] Danny or even just at the regular supermarket. Better olive oils, better vinegars, better balsamic glaze. You can usually find some good items out there to add to your collection.

[00:07:59] Darin Now, speaking of olive oils, this last rule of yours is something that I definitely didn't expect, but it's something you say not to be afraid of. What's rule number five?

[00:08:08] Danny Rule number five, this is the one I get the most in trouble for online. It's don't be afraid of butter. Controversial, I'm sure. Controverial. Here in America, we think of olive oil when it comes to Italian food and Italian-American cooking, which is true. I use a lot of olive and whenever I use a little bit of butter in any dish and I post online, people are aghast. Like you cannot use butter, that's not the way it's done. What I have learned after reading a lot of Italian cookbooks and talking with a lot of people in Italy is that... A lot of the olive oil culture comes from southern Italy, where a lot of immigrants came from to the United States. But in northern Italy, where it's closer to Switzerland and France, they're not as afraid of using butter in some dishes or having butter-based dishes. For example, I posted a recipe by a famous Italian chef, Marcella Hazan. She uses butter in her tomato sauce. People were so upset when I posted that, but I read her recipe and she said, this is how my mother made it back in Italy. One of my favorite ways to use butter very easily is after you make pasta, you drain the pasta and you have your sauce. I especially like to do this with like a pesto. Just put in a pad of butter into the pasta. The heat from the pasta will melt to add the sauce. As the butter's melting and the sauce is all coming together, it just helps make the sauce... A little just a touch of cream a little bit silky even though it's Italian food don't be afraid of a little but of butter mixed in there

[00:09:23] Darin Danny, congratulations. I know the book is out August 26, but pre-orders are up and available now if people want to pre-order the book, where can they go?

[00:09:32] Danny You can get the book anywhere. Books are sold. You can go to Amazon, Barnes& Noble, Target. For preorders, I'm selling signed copies through my local bookstore. The bookstore is called Stanza, and you can get signed copy shipped to you.

[00:09:43] Darin Amazing and if people want to see your content because I know that you've already been doing a couple of recipes on Instagram and TikTok from the book which have been fantastic to watch and gets me very excited for it to come out. Where can they go?

[00:09:53] Danny You can find me on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, all at Danny Loves Pasta.

[00:09:57] Darin Congratulations and I can't wait to get the hard copy of the book.

[00:10:01] Danny Thank you, good talking with you.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Darin sits down with winemaker, designer, and storyteller André Hueston Mack to talk about his Five Rules for Building a Life You Don’t Want to Escape From. From walking away from the corporate grind to finding unexpected inspiration in reruns of Frasier, André shares how betting on himself, mastering his craft, and embracing contradiction have shaped his path. They talk wine, family dinners, legacy, and why telling your story—your way—matters. It's honest, funny, and packed with wisdom for anyone ready to take that first leap. Pour a glass of Maison Noir and press play.

Photo by Danielle Simone

A message from the Independent Hospitality Coalition for those being affected by ICE raids in Los Angeles:

Attention restaurant owners, be prepared. Thank you to everyone who has shared information that has allowed us to plan.As if restaurant owners and hospitality workers did not have enough to worry about. Our kitchens are what they are because of are immigrant community. ICE is plucking people from our community in the name of law and order, we know the truth.History will remember this moment.

Un mensaje de la Independent Hospitality Coalition para quienes están siendo afectados por las redadas de ICE en Los Ángeles:

Atención dueños de restaurantes: prepárense. Gracias a todos los que han compartido información que nos ha permitido organizarnos.

Como si los dueños de restaurantes y trabajadores de hospitalidad no tuvieran ya suficientes preocupaciones. Nuestras cocinas son lo que son gracias a nuestra comunidad inmigrante. ICE está arrancando a personas de nuestra comunidad en nombre de la ley y el orden —pero nosotros conocemos la verdad.

La historia recordará este momento.

(00:00:00):

Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life.

(00:00:02):

I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz.

(00:00:04):

Today,

(00:00:04):

I'm joined by Andre Houston Mack,

(00:00:06):

sommelier at large and winemaker whose Maison Noir wines are some of the best

(00:00:11):

tasting and best designed wines to come out of America these days.

(00:00:16):

He shares with us his five rules for building a life you don't want to escape from.

(00:00:20):

We chat about his proverbial fork in the road when he chose to bet on himself.

(00:00:24):

how being present at your own family table is just as important,

(00:00:29):

if not more so than sitting in the boardroom and how tossed salad and scrambled

(00:00:34):

eggs gave them the confidence to step into the wine world.

(00:00:37):

Let's get into the rules.

(00:00:42):

Andre, so great to see you.

(00:00:44):

First chat of the summer officially.

(00:00:47):

And I couldn't think of a better person to kick the season off with than you.

(00:00:51):

Thanks for sitting down.

(00:00:51):

Thanks for having me, man.

(00:00:52):

I'm super excited.

(00:00:53):

Yeah, definitely kind of first day of summer.

(00:00:55):

I just shipped my family off to Vermont early this morning.

(00:00:57):

So I have the house to myself and I'm feeling pretty proud and relaxed to have this

(00:01:01):

conversation.

(00:01:02):

It can seem like such a simple thing,

(00:01:03):

getting your family off on summer vacation,

(00:01:05):

creating this space for you to have this conversation.

(00:01:08):

But I know that you've worked really hard to get to this point in your life.

(00:01:11):

And not everyone has a clear delineation of that start of when their life that they

(00:01:17):

wanted to begins to happen.

(00:01:20):

But you do because you did what so many people dream about.

(00:01:23):

You walked away from the corporate world.

(00:01:24):

What was that moment like?

(00:01:26):

What was the thing that pushed you over the edge?

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I just wasn't fulfilled at work.

(00:01:30):

I was a licensed stock broker, but we didn't actually give any advice.

(00:01:33):

This was before the smartphone.

(00:01:35):

So all we really did was give stock quotes.

(00:01:37):

And I came from a background of restaurants where you interacted with people all

(00:01:41):

day long on a 12 hour shift.

(00:01:43):

wasn't like that there.

(00:01:44):

And I just realized that this is good, but it's not great.

(00:01:48):

The moment really came where it was a fork in the road.

(00:01:51):

Travelers Group bought Citibank.

(00:01:53):

And at that moment,

(00:01:53):

they said,

(00:01:54):

hey,

(00:01:54):

you're not losing your job,

(00:01:55):

but you can reapply or you can take severance.

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And I had never heard of severance.

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I didn't know what that was.

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That was the moment where I realized that this is cool and fun,

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but I could probably work a little bit harder and make the same amount of money.

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But also, even if I made less money,

(00:02:08):

It was just a thing of feeling in control and feeling fulfilled at the end of the day.

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I just felt like a drone in a way and couldn't really have my own personality,

(00:02:16):

but it was that defining moment.

(00:02:17):

And that's where I decided that I'm no longer going to do this.

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Not to jump ahead,

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but you are now a designer,

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sommelier,

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author,

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winemaker,

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but you had to start somewhere.

(00:02:26):

When you left the corporate world,

(00:02:28):

what was the first role you picked to lay the foundation of the life you wanted?

(00:02:32):

I ran back to an industry that I had already been in.

(00:02:35):

All throughout college, I had waited tables in restaurants.

(00:02:38):

All those things that you just listed,

(00:02:39):

never in a million years would I ever thought that that's what I was going to do.

(00:02:43):

Even at that moment, at the fork in the road.

(00:02:45):

And I had time to dream.

(00:02:48):

I had time to think about the things that I wanted or to collect my ideas.

(00:02:53):

At that time, I took the severance and decided.

(00:02:55):

had basically more time than money, right?

(00:02:57):

Because I knew that money was going to run out and was trying to think about what do you do now?

(00:03:00):

That comes exhaustive and I would fall asleep on the sofa.

(00:03:03):

And when I would wake back up, they would be paying back to back to back episodes of Frasier.

(00:03:07):

And that was a little bit of an escape.

(00:03:09):

They just started talking about wine.

(00:03:11):

Wow.

(00:03:11):

And I didn't know much about wine.

(00:03:13):

Before I left to work in finance,

(00:03:15):

I worked at Red Lobster all throughout college and they had three wines on the wine

(00:03:19):

list and they were all white Zinfandel.

(00:03:21):

Right.

(00:03:21):

So I didn't know anything about wine,

(00:03:23):

but I was curious and they seemed like they were having fun.

(00:03:27):

And at this moment,

(00:03:28):

I was at a pivotal moment in my life and I felt,

(00:03:30):

well,

(00:03:30):

if they're drinking wine and having fun,

(00:03:31):

maybe that will make me happy.

(00:03:33):

Maybe that will be fun for me.

(00:03:34):

And by watching that show,

(00:03:36):

it gave me the courage to walk into a wine shop for the first time in my life.

(00:03:39):

Because from the outside looking in,

(00:03:41):

if you don't see anybody that looks like you,

(00:03:43):

you didn't think it was for you.

(00:03:44):

I say this all the time.

(00:03:45):

The greatest foil to pretension is humor.

(00:03:48):

Somehow it felt like I could arm myself with a comedic antidotes, right?

(00:03:51):

You know what I mean?

(00:03:52):

And I got to talk to people.

(00:03:53):

That initial thing of being afraid or being intimidated went away.

(00:03:56):

It's amazing to hear you at the start,

(00:04:00):

at this fork,

(00:04:00):

that first step into the wine world and to see your success now.

(00:04:04):

And it's even easier if you're sitting at home and seeing what you're up to on social media.

(00:04:09):

I think it's a straight path,

(00:04:10):

but we all know of those who've journeyed on that road that is far from straight,

(00:04:14):

far from easy.

(00:04:15):

Correct.

(00:04:15):

Was there any point,

(00:04:17):

especially in the early years,

(00:04:18):

that you questioned your decision to build this life for yourself?

(00:04:21):

Absolutely.

(00:04:22):

I still do today.

(00:04:24):

Sure.

(00:04:25):

Yeah.

(00:04:26):

Steve Jobs said, it always feels like a house of cards.

(00:04:29):

And in some ways it should feel that way, that it could all go away.

(00:04:32):

That's the driving force of why I work so hard.

(00:04:34):

So maybe you can take a few steps away every now and then.

(00:04:37):

It's really good to be able to build and retreat and look at what you put together

(00:04:42):

and then make adjustments and

(00:04:44):

And that's why I'm so excited to have you here today.

(00:04:46):

Yes.

(00:04:46):

So we can talk about your five rules for building a life you don't want to escape from.

(00:04:51):

Absolutely.

(00:04:51):

I want to go back to that very first moment.

(00:04:54):

Not only does it take that right mindset to walk away from something familiar,

(00:04:58):

you also need to have this other belief.

(00:05:00):

What's your rule number one?

(00:05:01):

Rule number one is bet on yourself, even when no one else will.

(00:05:04):

Only you know what you're capable of.

(00:05:06):

Only you know where you want to go.

(00:05:08):

And you know, I always say eyes on the prize, even the days that you're frustrated.

(00:05:12):

It's a saying so much that my wife adopted it.

(00:05:14):

I watched too many movies when I was a young kid.

(00:05:16):

I always thought that I'm going to work really hard and I'm working at Red Lobster.

(00:05:20):

I'm putting the sauces on the plate and somebody in the dining room is going to see

(00:05:23):

you through those double doors.

(00:05:25):

how hard I'm working.

(00:05:26):

And they're going to say, hey, kid, and offer me a job and change my life.

(00:05:29):

And after a few years, I realized that wasn't going to happen.

(00:05:32):

And the person that was going to come into my life and change my life was going to

(00:05:35):

have to be me.

(00:05:36):

That is where it all changed.

(00:05:38):

You're the one that's in control.

(00:05:39):

And sometimes you have to do a little juke move, right?

(00:05:42):

Sometimes you have to do a spin move.

(00:05:43):

You can't lose that faith that you have in yourself to make it happen for yourself.

(00:05:47):

Allowing yourself that grace to step left,

(00:05:50):

to step right,

(00:05:51):

to give a little juke allows you to grow.

(00:05:53):

And it also ties directly into rule number two.

(00:05:56):

Which is make room for contradiction.

(00:05:58):

It's like this idea of two things can be true at the same time.

(00:06:01):

I can live with one foot in this world and another foot in this world.

(00:06:04):

Yeah.

(00:06:05):

Yeah.

(00:06:27):

And most people are like, what?

(00:06:28):

No, I get it.

(00:06:29):

I respect where I come from in the root.

(00:06:31):

Being a product of hip hop, it's one of the few genres of music that's aspirational.

(00:06:35):

And they tell you what to drink.

(00:06:36):

They tell you what music to listen to.

(00:06:38):

For me, it was, oh, I can still have that.

(00:06:40):

When I first moved to New York City,

(00:06:41):

I had worked at French Laundry,

(00:06:42):

moved to New York City,

(00:06:43):

and I was running the beverage department at Per Se.

(00:06:45):

Every night before inventory, I would drink a 40 ounce.

(00:06:48):

You can take your craft serious, but I just don't take myself serious.

(00:06:52):

I like to have fun.

(00:06:54):

If you're not having fun, then why even do it?

(00:06:55):

You talk about craft.

(00:06:58):

And I really think that understanding what you're getting into,

(00:07:01):

what you're working on,

(00:07:02):

having that strong foundation allows you to grow.

(00:07:05):

What's your rule number three?

(00:07:06):

Rule number three is master your craft and then break all the rules.

(00:07:10):

And that was it for me.

(00:07:11):

To forever be a master means to forever be a student.

(00:07:15):

For me, it was just always, I needed to know all the rules in order to be able to break them.

(00:07:20):

That's what I found my training was as a sommelier,

(00:07:22):

working for the best restaurant in the world,

(00:07:25):

the French Laundry,

(00:07:26):

and then saying,

(00:07:26):

hey,

(00:07:27):

what's happening in New York?

(00:07:28):

You know, it's one of the most anticipated restaurant openings in New York City history.

(00:07:32):

I want to be a part of that.

(00:07:33):

And I took that leap of faith and came here to do that.

(00:07:36):

I wanted to learn everything about what I did and being a sommelier.

(00:07:39):

So much so that I think I worked maybe 33,

(00:07:42):

40 something days in a row when I first got to the French Laundry.

(00:07:45):

I had this mentality of each day that I worked to be like three days.

(00:07:49):

A lot of things come from experience.

(00:07:50):

The more time that you're on the floor and the more time you get work,

(00:07:53):

the more things happen,

(00:07:54):

the more things,

(00:07:55):

how you understand how to react.

(00:07:56):

I felt like I was behind the...

(00:07:58):

They ate ball because I started late.

(00:07:59):

Think about this.

(00:08:00):

When we're talking about from the time that I was watching episodes of Frasier to

(00:08:03):

the time that I was the sommelier working the floor at the French Laundry,

(00:08:07):

it's probably less than 24 months.

(00:08:09):

Wow.

(00:08:10):

So three wines on the wine list at Red Lobster that were all white Zinfandel, right?

(00:08:14):

Yeah.

(00:08:14):

So that time, less than 24 months, I was the sommelier at the French Laundry.

(00:08:18):

By putting in that time,

(00:08:19):

by grinding,

(00:08:20):

by establishing your foundation,

(00:08:22):

it builds up this protection around yourself where people can't tell you who you

(00:08:26):

are or where you're allowed to be.

(00:08:28):

It allows for you to do this, which is your rule number four.

(00:08:31):

Rule number four is tell your story before someone else does.

(00:08:34):

I learned that at the French Laundry.

(00:08:35):

Great place to learn.

(00:08:36):

Right.

(00:08:36):

It was always this thing about controlling your own narrative because guests were going to ask.

(00:08:40):

And if you didn't have the answers for the guests,

(00:08:42):

then they were going to make up their own story.

(00:08:44):

Of course.

(00:08:44):

And that was it.

(00:08:45):

I understood how to control the narrative and tell the stories the way that I

(00:08:48):

wanted to tell them.

(00:08:49):

And by owning my own narrative gave me power within that.

(00:08:52):

And I didn't have to wait for others or the gatekeepers to let me in or to pass me

(00:08:57):

the mic,

(00:08:57):

so to speak.

(00:08:58):

I got to tell my own story in the way that I felt that was authentic to me.

(00:09:01):

And because of that, it was unapologetically me.

(00:09:04):

I love that.

(00:09:04):

This is not an act, just me, who I am.

(00:09:06):

I just get up every single day and get to tell my journey.

(00:09:09):

By people buying into their narrative,

(00:09:11):

it's the reason why people follow things,

(00:09:13):

the reason why people build community around it,

(00:09:15):

because there's a story that they can relate to.

(00:09:17):

When people buy into a narrative, into a story, they're buying into you.

(00:09:22):

Correct.

(00:09:23):

When people buy into you, they want to be around you, which relates to rule number five.

(00:09:27):

Yeah, and rule number five is legacy is built at the table.

(00:09:30):

It's who you invite to that table, who's around you is how you build legacy.

(00:09:34):

For me, this is everything.

(00:09:35):

This is why I do everything that I do is the body of work and how you impact at people.

(00:09:40):

And now that I have a family, that has another meaning to it.

(00:09:42):

Having dinner at the dinner table with your family.

(00:09:44):

You know, I'm a father of four boys.

(00:09:46):

My boys are 16, 14, 9, and 6.

(00:09:48):

And having family dinner, I feel like that is also where we're building legacy.

(00:09:54):

100%.

(00:09:54):

Where we're talking about things and not just all about the lessons that I've

(00:09:57):

learned in life,

(00:09:58):

but breaking bread and talking to them about their lives,

(00:10:00):

asking them what's happening there.

(00:10:02):

The dining room table at your house is just as important as the boardroom table.

(00:10:05):

Building that community with your own family is so important.

(00:10:09):

Correct.

(00:10:09):

Because sometimes what you do is you get lost in saying, I'm doing it for them.

(00:10:12):

And the reason why I'm not at the dinner table is because I'm building this life for them.

(00:10:16):

They deserve just as much as my time as anybody else.

(00:10:19):

I love the life that you've built.

(00:10:20):

If people want to follow along with your adventures,

(00:10:22):

if people want to get your wines or sign up for notifications about your new book

(00:10:26):

that's coming out,

(00:10:27):

where can they go?

(00:10:28):

Just hit me up on IG.

(00:10:28):

That's kind of like my main line of communication at Andre H. Mack.

(00:10:32):

My wine company is called Maison Noir Wines.

(00:10:33):

You can check me out on YouTube.

(00:10:35):

I'm happy to be able to share these things because I really feel a lot of people

(00:10:38):

are out there living for the weekend.

(00:10:40):

And the whole idea is that if you built every day and love what you do,

(00:10:43):

every day is a weekend and every day is a blessing.

(00:10:45):

It's living that good life with intent.

(00:10:47):

Absolutely.

(00:10:48):

Andre, thank you so much.

(00:10:49):

Really appreciate you making the time, sharing your rules.

(00:10:51):

Have a great summer.

(00:10:52):

Anytime, man.

(00:10:52):

Thank you.

(00:10:53):

You too.

(00:10:53):

Cheers.

Thanks for reading Five Rules for the Good Life! This post is public so feel free to share it.

Darin is joined by Katherine Lewin, founder and CEO of Big Night, one of his favorite shops—and one of his biggest sources of dinner party inspiration. She shares her five rules for opening a shop, building community, and creating a brand with purpose. They talk about what it takes to open a physical store, why starting small matters, how storytelling can transform a retail experience, and why the best decisions often come from trusting your gut. If you've ever dreamed of starting your own business or want to host better dinner parties, this one’s for you.

A message from the Independent Hospitality Coalition for those being affected by ICE raids in Los Angeles:

Attention restaurant owners, be prepared. Thank you to everyone who has shared information that has allowed us to plan.As if restaurant owners and hospitality workers did not have enough to worry about. Our kitchens are what they are because of are immigrant community. ICE is plucking people from our community in the name of law and order, we know the truth.History will remember this moment.

Un mensaje de la Independent Hospitality Coalition para quienes están siendo afectados por las redadas de ICE en Los Ángeles:

Atención dueños de restaurantes: prepárense. Gracias a todos los que han compartido información que nos ha permitido organizarnos.

Como si los dueños de restaurantes y trabajadores de hospitalidad no tuvieran ya suficientes preocupaciones. Nuestras cocinas son lo que son gracias a nuestra comunidad inmigrante. ICE está arrancando a personas de nuestra comunidad en nombre de la ley y el orden —pero nosotros conocemos la verdad.

La historia recordará este momento.

[00:00:00] Darin Hello, and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I am joined by one of my favorite small business owners and dinner party inspirations, Katherine Lewin, who's the founder and CEO of Big Night. We chat about her five rules for opening up a shop, how to stay focused, how storytelling is a big part of selling. And at the end of the day, one of the most important things you can do is to trust your gut. Let's get into the rules. Katherine, always a pleasure to see you. Congratulations on the expansion of the original Greenpoint Big Night Shop. How does it feel?

[00:00:38] Katherine Feels amazing. I'm coming to you live from our backyard, which was part of the original space, but now feels even more special. The interior is three times the size. We just have room to spread out. It feels great.

[00:00:52] Darin I love how humble you're being because you're coming from the backyard because the store is so packed on a Thursday afternoon that you actually can't do the interview in there.

[00:00:59] Katherine That's one way to frame it. Darin, that's a reframe that I like. It's all thanks to our customers who are the kind of people who wanna come shop or whatever they might need, whether it's a fancy ingredient or a gift for their sister or a little pick me up on a Thursday afternoon and we love them for it.

[00:01:14] Darin You're there to really support the community. How does it feel to become an integral part of your neighborhood?

[00:01:21] Katherine There's a lot of rewarding feelings about this job, but I would definitely rank it in the top. No one sets out to make a brick and mortar retail store just to do business. For all of us who open actual physical shop, that sense of community and that sense of creating a place for our people, that is why you do it.

[00:01:37] Darin You know, you're almost four years in now to the store.

[00:01:40] Katherine Okay.

[00:01:40] Darin How does it feel to have gone from the original vision to this expanded version and to see it grow?

[00:01:47] Katherine I can't believe it's been four years, first of all. In the beginning, the vision was so, I don't wanna use the word small, but it was really focused because I knew I needed to start small to gain the confidence to execute on this larger vision. And now we've really evolved into a brand that I hope stands for helping people live the good life at home. That's really what I want for people to take away from the shop and the brand and it feels we're making better and better on that promise.

[00:02:16] Darin It's amazing and very inspirational. And that's why I'm so excited to be chatting with you today about the beginning because every successful store had to open its doors for the first time. Yes. So I'd love to hear your five rules for opening a shop with the first rule being about being very focused when you first open those doors.

[00:02:33] Katherine My rule number one, start small. Be confident in your little corner of the world. And also starting small helps protect you from risk. I didn't know anything about opening a brick and mortar physical store other than I had this weird urge to do it. We were coming off of the worst lockdown part of the pandemic. I was craving IRL experiences, just like everybody else. I also was craving shopping experiences. I was tired of living my life online. And I just had the feeling that physical retail was really going to be something that people would be excited about. A. And B. Dinner parties. I just kept thinking about dinner parties. It was 2020 and everyone was cooking so elaborately, but no one was gathering. I became kind of obsessed with, Wow, dinner parties are gonna feel so amazing when it's safe enough for us to gather at home again. So I thought, what if there was a place where people could get everything they needed for dinner parties? That alone is kind of specific prompt, right? When it stopped becoming just a thought and it started becoming, how do I action on this? Mm-hmm. First thing that comes to mind is what's the space going to be, right? It's a physical store. And when I found my space, I saw it's 240 square foot floor plan. And I thought that size is perfect. Everyone else was like, what, I'm sorry. How many that 240 square feet floor plan? Made me feel like. I might not know all the ins and outs of this and I can stock the shelves. I alone can staff the shop if I need to. It was a bite-sized store and that is what paved the way for me to confidently and intentionally grow because I started from a place where I didn't automatically feel like I was biting off more than I could chew.

[00:04:09] Darin And being that size forces you to be very specific, which ties directly into rule number

[00:04:15] Katherine My rule number two, know your value proposition. What specific thing or service are you offering? When you're starting out, you have to be able to quickly tell someone, why does this physical space exist? It exists because I want you to have everything you need for a dinner party all in one place. Listen, a lot of people would walk in and say, well, I never have dinner parties, so like is this store not for me? And then it's your job to expand on that and explain. A dinner party could be 10 of you seated for dinner, or a dinner pretty could be you and a friend having a killer pizza that you got from delivery and a great bottle of wine and fancy wineglasses and then it's your version of a big night. Starting from that very specific value prop of a dinner party shop gives you that niche and that specificity really helps people wrap their head around why they should be interested in the concept.

[00:05:03] Darin What I've always loved about the concept, everything that Big Night touches, you can feel that it's telling a story, which I've been a big believer in when you're looking for success, is about storytelling. And whether that's a TV show or a cookbook, telling a storytelling is really what's gonna drive you. What's rule number three?

[00:05:20] Katherine And rule number three, don't sell, tell. Storytelling is so key to Big Night. When I first opened the store, I literally wrote more product storytelling signage than we had space for on our shelves. Like I could not fit all the signage. I didn't want people to just buy a $38 bottle of olive oil and then get home and be like, why did I spend my $38 on olive oil? I wanted to tell them, here are the makers who made this olive oil in Calabria. Here's how they recommend you enjoy it. Here's how I like to enjoy it, giving people background on these products that makes them feel more connected to that small maker and then also suddenly gives them a new avenue to try an olive oil in a way they haven't before. It's important to me that the store never feels like just a place where transactions happen. People wanna hear about where they're putting their dollars, especially food and personal items on their dinner table are coming from. It's really important to tell those stories to your customers and bring them in on why you as the shop owner or the buyer are so excited about them.

[00:06:21] Darin It really helps when you reach for a bottle of wine, even salt, pepper, anything to know who's behind it, because you can't get so disconnected when almost everything you get is either online or at a chain store. So being able to connect with your customers and tell them stories serves such a great purpose. And the other thing I like about you having a physical store is that they also tell you things. So what's rule number four.

[00:06:44] Katherine Rule number four, listen to your customers. I like to think my secret weapon of having a physical store is I have a constant 24-7 real-time feedback loop with my customers.

[00:06:54] Darin Whether you like it or not.

[00:06:55] Katherine Yeah and everybody who works with me in the shop knows it is so important to listen. It is so important when anyone gives any feedback whether the feedback is hey I tried this product and I found this part of it confusing or the feedback, is hey why don't you carry more butter dishes or the feed back is I see a lot of products from Italy but have you seen this olive oil from Portugal? I'm really interested in it and we actually have a slack channel.

[00:07:19] Darin Hmm

[00:07:20] Katherine If a customer says it out loud and it's about a product, it's going on the Slack channel.

[00:07:23] Darin Oh, that's amazing.

[00:07:24] Katherine I take that information and I think about it when I'm buying everything. We react to what our customers are telling us and asking us for it. Because at the end of the day, the store is for them, whether it's something that they would like to see reflected on the shelves or it's something that they're really excited about. I want them to feel like every time they come back in, we're hearing them.

[00:07:41] Darin I think it's great that you give so much opportunity for the customers to give their feedback. But at the end of the day, there can only be one founder and CEO. What's rule number five?

[00:07:51] Katherine Trust and stand behind your gut instincts and intuition. I mean, this is really more of a life rule for me. Something that people don't often realize is just how much you are opening yourself up and really exposing yourself and your business to the world at large when you have a physical place. Your doors are open. Anybody can come in. Anybody can say anything they want to. They could write a Google review. They can write a Yelp review. They can say something in real life that might not sit quite right, or they might give unsolicited advice. We're all human beings. We're all entitled to our opinions. Absolutely. But I think As a business owner and as a business owner whose store reflects my own personal point of view, I do have to remember that at the end of the day, I have to listen to that point of you. And I have balance that with all the different inputs I receive every day from all different places, not just my customers, but really trust that my instinct is there and my heart and soul are in the right place. And so as long as I can align that and reconcile that with what the customer is asking from me, and it feels like I'm being true to both, I'm on the right track.

[00:08:53] Darin You can absolutely feel your heart and soul in everything you do with Big Night. Congratulations on the expansion. If people want to visit the store in person, shop online, get the cookbook, where can they go?

[00:09:04] Katherine If you're in New York, come by. We have shops in Greenpoint and on the West Village. And if you're not in New york, please stop by our website. You will find it at shopbignight.com. And you can also follow us on Instagram at big night shop.

[00:09:18] Darin Catherine, congratulations. I can't wait to come back to Brooklyn to pop into the newly expanded Greenpoint store. I'm sure it's as incredible as it looks online.

[00:09:28] Katherine Can't wait to have you, Darin. Thanks so much for having me.

Five Rules for the Good Life is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

In this special episode, Darin welcomes Brittney Valles, founding member of the Independent Hospitality Coalition (IHC), for a timely and urgent conversation. With ICE activity increasing in Los Angeles and the National Guard deployed, Brittney outlines the rights every hospitality worker should know during an immigration raid.

From how to assert your right to remain silent to using the ILRC Red Card as a tool of protection, this episode is a vital listen for anyone in the industry—or anyone who cares about it. For more resources or to connect with IHC directly, visit their official site or follow them on Instagram at @ihc.la.

En este episodio especial, Darin recibe a Brittney Valles, miembro fundadora de la Independent Hospitality Coalition (IHC), para una conversación tan oportuna como urgente. Con el aumento de la actividad de ICE en Los Ángeles y el despliegue de la Guardia Nacional, Brittney explica los derechos que todo trabajador de la hospitalidad debe conocer durante una redada migratoria.

Desde cómo ejercer tu derecho a permanecer en silencio hasta cómo usar la Tarjeta Roja del ILRC como herramienta de protección, este episodio es una escucha esencial para cualquiera que trabaje en la industria —o que se preocupe por ella—. Para más recursos o para conectar directamente con IHC, visita su sitio oficial o síguelos en Instagram en @ihc.la.

A message from the Independent Hospitality Coalition for those being affected by ICE raids in Los Angeles:

Attention restaurant owners, be prepared. Thank you to everyone who has shared information that has allowed us to plan.As if restaurant owners and hospitality workers did not have enough to worry about. Our kitchens are what they are because of are immigrant community. ICE is plucking people from our community in the name of law and order, we know the truth.History will remember this moment.

Un mensaje de la Independent Hospitality Coalition para quienes están siendo afectados por las redadas de ICE en Los Ángeles:

Atención dueños de restaurantes: prepárense. Gracias a todos los que han compartido información que nos ha permitido organizarnos.

Como si los dueños de restaurantes y trabajadores de hospitalidad no tuvieran ya suficientes preocupaciones. Nuestras cocinas son lo que son gracias a nuestra comunidad inmigrante. ICE está arrancando a personas de nuestra comunidad en nombre de la ley y el orden —pero nosotros conocemos la verdad.

La historia recordará este momento.

[00:00:00] Darin Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. Given the unfolding events of both ICE and now the National Guard being deployed in Los Angeles, I wanted to invite Brittney Valles and the IHC on for a special episode this week. Brittney is a founding member of the Independent Hospitality Coalition. For those who are unaware of this incredible organization, it is a coalition of Los Angeles hospitality operators, advocates, and workers whose purpose is to provide representation for the city's growing workforce and essential businesses. Their existence and purpose has never been needed more than right now. I wanted to invite Brittney on to share IHC's five individual rights during an ICE raid. There is a lot of great information that I will be linking to in the episode description and if the links aren't available where you're listening to this, please go to 5rules.substack.com slash podcast. In this episode, she shares key information about what to do in those first few moments. When ICE agents arrive at a restaurant where you work, about having the immigrant legal resource centers red card on hand at all times, and the importance of having a professional advocate or lawyer on your side. It's a really important and educational episode, and I feel very lucky that she took the time out of what is surely a busy time for her and the entire organization. So let's get into your rights. Brittney, thank you for taking the time to sit down with me during a very frightening and uncertain time in the LA hospitality scene and Los Angeles at large. I really appreciate it.

[00:01:45] Brittney Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:47] Darin It's been an extremely disruptive and unsettling week in the city. People can see one thing on the news and it's different what you're seeing being on the ground. Can you share some of the details of what you see?

[00:01:58] Brittney Aside from members of our community, as far as kitchen staff and service staff being alarmed and unsure what restaurant or what neighborhood is going to be invaded by ice necks, there's also a lot of fear tactics being put out there by media and our lovely president. And so even if your restaurant isn't really in the line of fire, people aren't coming to LA. Some restaurants are having to reduce hours because their staff is afraid, despite their status. Just because we're seeing things that are unprecedented, where people are getting taken accidentally, despite whether they have a work permit, have permanent residency, it's really, really scary right now. And I think there's so much uncertainty on top of everything that we've been dealing with for the past couple of years in LA, as far as food and beverage.

[00:02:47] Darin Seeing restaurants like Lasita and other places having to close or reduce their hours is just one more hardship that they've had to endure after the strikes and the fires and now this.

[00:02:57] Brittney So, yeah.

[00:02:58] Darin How is the restaurant community being affected at large?

[00:03:01] Brittney I've had a lot of people tell me that staff's not coming, and so they have clothes for a day, or there's people who are scared, and so, they're gonna have to figure out alternatives to make them safe or make them comfortable. A lot of conversations are being had. I had a family friend who lives in the Inland Empire tell me she is canceling all her jobs in LA because they have a plumbing company.

[00:03:21] Darin You don't want to

[00:03:22] Brittney They don't want to send their staff down here. Every person that's not here, it's one ticket. One less person to order food or to purchase a beverage. It's really stressful. Aside from the fact that we have militarized individuals on our street popping tear gas and all that, there's also the economic implications. It's a super stressful situation.

[00:03:41] Darin It's really stressful and there's a lot of uncertainty, but despite all that, there has been really quick mobilizations from groups like the IHC and other grassroots organizations. I don't know if hope and inspiration are the right words to use at the time, but what is giving you some positive forward momentum?

[00:03:58] Brittney People are really rallying together with this issue, regardless of your politics. I think seeing families being ripped apart in the way that it's happening, it's enough for people to be like, no, no. Not in our city. And so that gives me a lot of hope. And then so many people are willing to donate resources. The Independent Hospitality Coalition is gonna be co-hosting an event next week for restaurant owners, restaurant managers, bar managers. To get more informed, those of us that have, don't feel the fear of our citizenship status are rallying behind those that may, and again, it's not only people that may be undocumented or may not have the correct documents, it is people that just got citizenship, right? Because there's that five-year grace period after citizenship, green card holders. There's so much gray area with how this administration is enforcing what they're enforcing, seeing everybody rallying around this community of immigrants and not just because of what they produce in work, but just because these are members of our community, it's really a beautiful thing to see in stressful time.

[00:05:00] Darin Given the administration's promise of 30 days of ICE raids and even today's announcement of the National Guard being here for 60 days, what I found really helpful was your recent post about what people can do to protect themselves. So I'd love to get into the five individual rights during an ICE raid, starting with right number one, which is as simple as not opening the door.

[00:05:22] Brittney We're seeing ICE work outside of the boundaries of the law, but this is kind of the best that we can do. Not allowing access is your right. Private areas are not allowed to be searched without a warrant, and judges are not handing out warrants willy-nilly right now. Administrative order is not the same as a signed order by a judge. And so if you have clear signage that this is employees only private area, no access without owner's permission, it's pretty clear that they cannot go into those areas, owners labeling all the private areas, all the safe havens in the restaurant. So if ICE does show up or the National Guard or the Marines or whoever is going to be thrown at us next, there's a place that was dedicated and sealed off for everybody to go and making sure that you have that space and you talk to your staff. OK, I shows up. This is where we're all going. And again, it doesn't matter your document status, just go over there because we don't need to be, oh, who's this and who's that? Everybody needs to just go into the safe place because we're trying to make coffee, we're try to make tacos, whatever it is, we're not trying to deal with federal agents enforcing immigration status.

[00:06:26] Darin If these ICE agents don't play by the rules and do come into a private space, what is your second right and how to deal with them?

[00:06:34] Brittney Your second right is to remain silent. You don't have to say anything. They cannot force you to say anything. They might use fear tactics that are like, well, we're going to arrest you if you don't say this or we're gonna arrest you. If you don't show us your immigration status, maintain your Fifth Amendment and say nothing because fear tactics and getting people to react off emotion is the biggest card that they have to play. So we just have to take that power away from them and just say nothing.

[00:06:59] Darin Speaking of cards to play, right number three deals with something you can hand them if they continue to violate your rights.

[00:07:05] Brittney The red card, it is by the Immigrants Legal Resource Center. It is a red card that you can download online in, I think, like 35 different languages or 39 different languages. Even if you don't speak English, it has your rights written out in your language and in English that you just hand to whatever officer that you're dealing with. It's recommended to be printed in bright red paper. That's why it's called the red card. That is available on the ilrc.org website, and you can just hand it to them. If you don't speak English, if you speak Arabic, if you can speak Chinese, if speak Spanish, Farsi, that's within your right to just give them this card that outlines your stance with just to say nothing, not answering any questions, and you are equipped with your knowledge of your constitutional rights, which is insane. That you're having to defend your constitutional rights live on the floor in the city.

[00:07:56] Darin They're going to take advantage of you not being able to have a grasp on the English language. They might put a paper in your face and a pen. What's your fourth right?

[00:08:03] Brittney Do not sign anything. It's certainly not something without an attorney. There are so many resources. Again, the ILRC, Immigrants Legal Resource Center is a great resource for attorneys that are doing things pro bono in these unprecedented times. Your signature should not end up on any single piece of paper. Pressure and fear tactics is the greatest weapon that ICE has against people that know their rights and are refusing to cooperate. As long as you don't succumb to that pressure, you have more options and more flexibility. It is really a scary time, and we're seeing so much of it live on Instagram and on TikTok, so just not allowing the emotions of it all to make you make decisions that are against your best interest.

[00:08:45] Darin The pressure of time and the pressure of being forced to do something on someone else's timeline can be really frightening. This last right does take a little extra time to action on. What is your fifth right?

[00:08:57] Brittney So it's finding an attorney right now all over social media. There is so many resources. We've put up some resources on the Independent Hospitality Coalition. Find an attorney, find an expert that can help you out of this situation. If your family member has been taken and is brought to a detention center and you believe it's unlawful, then find an attorney. Right away, DM us, DM the ILRC. Just find as many resources as you can. We live in a city of people that are fighting for the right of people to live here and to make a better life for themselves. So there's so many resources around, whether it's for you or for a family member, it's been taken, that's something that should be atop of your list. Don't try to navigate the system alone. Unfortunately, you can't trust the government officials that should really be protecting us. So find your own advocate.

[00:09:45] Darin Brittney, I cannot thank you enough for what you and all of the members of the IHC are doing. I found you because of your social posts and you got back to me so quickly. If other people want quick information or to follow up real-time updates or just ask for help, Where can they go?

[00:10:01] Brittney They can go to the Immigrant Legal Resource Center. That's ilrc.org. We're not affiliated with them, but it's a great network for resources specific to what is going on. And then the Independent Hospitality Coalition. We are a group of small independent restaurant owners in this city that advocate for what unique needs individually owned restaurants have. So we're not McDonald's and Chuck E. Cheese. We're the best sillas and the broad street oyster companies and the great whites of LA. We are always available. We're real people on the other side. If you're a restaurant owner or a small business owner and you are feeling alone and overwhelmed, do not hesitate to reach out to us. We read all of our DMs and we try to be as present for people and we just want to help. So reach out so that IHC if you're a small entrepreneur and for a little guidance.

[00:10:46] Darin I appreciate all the guidance. Thank you for being such a bright light and positive inspiration during these really tough times. Thank you to you and Lisa and to everyone else and good luck and keep fighting the good fight.

[00:10:56] Brittney Thanks for giving us a voice and hopefully things will turn around soon.

[00:00:00] Darin: Hola y bienvenidos a Five Rules for the Good Life. Soy su anfitrión, Darin Bresnitz. Dados los recientes acontecimientos con ICE y ahora la Guardia Nacional desplegada en Los Ángeles, invité a Brittney Valles y a la IHC para un episodio especial esta semana. Brittney es miembro fundadora de la Independent Hospitality Coalition. Para quienes no conocen esta increíble organización, es una coalición de operadores, defensores y trabajadores de la hostelería de Los Ángeles, cuyo propósito es representar a la creciente fuerza laboral y negocios esenciales de la ciudad. Su existencia y propósito nunca han sido más necesarios que ahora. Quise invitar a Brittney para compartir los cinco derechos individuales de la IHC durante una redada de ICE. Hay mucha información útil que enlazaré en la descripción del episodio y, si no están disponibles donde escuchan esto, por favor vayan a 5rules.substack.com/podcast. En este episodio, ella comparte información clave sobre qué hacer en esos primeros momentos: cuando los agentes de ICE llegan a un restaurante donde trabajas, la importancia de tener a mano la red card de Immigrant Legal Resource Center en todo momento, y la relevancia de contar con un abogado o defensor profesional. Es realmente un episodio importante y educativo, y me siento muy afortunado de que ella se tomara el tiempo en lo que seguramente es un momento muy ocupado para ella y toda la organización. Así que vayamos a tus derechos. Brittney, gracias por sentarte conmigo en este momento tan aterrador e incierto en el ámbito de la hostelería de Los Ángeles y la ciudad en general. De verdad lo aprecio.

[00:01:45] Brittney: Claro que sí. Gracias por invitarme.

[00:01:47] Darin: Ha sido una semana extremadamente disruptiva e inquietante en la ciudad. La gente puede ver una cosa en las noticias y es diferente a lo que ustedes ven de primera mano. ¿Puedes compartir algunos de los detalles de lo que estás viendo?

[00:01:58] Brittney: Más allá de los miembros de nuestra comunidad, desde el personal de cocina hasta servicio están alarmados e inseguros sobre qué restaurante o barrio será foco de una redada. También hay muchas tácticas de miedo promovidas por los medios y nuestro querido presidente. Y, aunque tu restaurante no esté en la línea de fuego, la gente ya no viene a Los Ángeles. Algunos negocios están reduciendo horarios porque su personal tiene miedo, sin importar su estatus migratorio. Basta con que estemos viendo cosas sin precedentes, donde personas están siendo detenidas por error, aunque tengan permiso de trabajo o residencia permanente. Es realmente aterrador ahora. Y creo que hay tanta incertidumbre encima de todo lo que ya hemos enfrentado en estos últimos años en LA, especialmente en alimentos y bebidas.

[00:02:47] Darin: Ver restaurantes como Lasita y otros cerrando o reduciendo horarios es otra dificultad más que han soportado después de las huelgas, los incendios y ahora esto.

[00:02:57] Brittney: Sí…

[00:02:58] Darin: ¿Cómo está afectando esto a la comunidad restaurantera en general?

[00:03:01] Brittney: Mucha gente me ha dicho que el personal ya no viene, así que solo están para un turno o hay personas asustadas, y han tenido que buscar alternativas para mantenerlos seguros o cómodos. Se están teniendo muchas conversaciones. Una amiga de la familia en Inland Empire me dijo que está cancelando todos sus trabajos en LA porque tienen una empresa de plomería.

[00:03:21] Darin: No quieres…

[00:03:22] Brittney: No quieren enviar a su personal aquí. Cada persona que no está es una venta menos. Una persona menos ordenando comida o comprando bebida. Es muy estresante. Aparte de que hay individuos militarizados en las calles disparando gas lacrimógeno, también hay implicaciones económicas. Es una situación super estresante.

[00:03:41] Darin: Es realmente estresante y hay mucha incertidumbre, pero a pesar de todo eso, ha habido movilizaciones rápidas de grupos como la IHC y otras organizaciones comunitarias. No sé si esperanza e inspiración son las palabras adecuadas, pero ¿qué les da algo de impulso positivo?

[00:03:58] Brittney: La gente se está reuniendo en torno a este problema, sin importar su política. Ver a familias siendo separadas de esta manera es suficiente para que la gente diga “no, no en nuestra ciudad”. Eso me da mucha esperanza. Y también mucha gente está dispuesta a donar recursos. La Independent Hospitality Coalition co-organizará un evento la próxima semana para dueños de restaurantes, gerentes de restaurante y bar, para informar mejor. Los que no temen por su estatus de ciudadanía están apoyando a quienes sí lo temen. Y nuevamente, no solo quienes son indocumentados o no tienen papeles, también quienes recién obtuvieron ciudadanía—hay un periodo de cinco años de gracia. Hay mucha zona gris en cómo está actuando esta administración, y ver a la gente arremangarse por esta comunidad inmigrante—no solo por lo que producen, sino porque son parte de nuestra comunidad—es realmente algo hermoso en un momento tan estresante.

[00:05:00] Darin: Dado que la administración prometió 30 días de redadas de ICE y hoy se anunció que la Guardia Nacional estará aquí por 60 días, lo que encontré muy útil fue tu publicación reciente sobre lo que la gente puede hacer para protegerse. Me encantaría empezar con el primer derecho durante una redada de ICE: no abrir la puerta.

[00:05:22] Brittney: Estamos viendo que ICE actúa fuera de los límites de la ley, pero esto es lo más fuerte que podemos hacer. Negar el acceso es tu derecho. Las áreas privadas no pueden ser registradas sin una orden judicial, y los jueces no están firmando alocadamente ahora. Una orden administrativa no es lo mismo que una orden firmada. Entonces, si tienes señalización clara de "Solo empleados, área privada, sin acceso sin permiso del dueño", es bastante obvio que no pueden entrar. Los dueños deben etiquetar esas áreas seguras. Si ICE aparece, o la Guardia Nacional o los marines—quienes sea—ese es el lugar al que todos van y debes hablar con tu equipo: “si ICE llega, vamos ahí”. Y otra vez, no importa tu estatus documental, todos al lugar seguro, porque aquí estamos para hacer café o tacos, no para tratar con agentes federales.

[00:06:26] Darin: Si los agentes de ICE no juegan limpio e ingresan a un área privada, ¿cuál es tu segundo derecho y cómo enfrentarlo?

[00:06:34] Brittney: Tu segundo derecho es guardar silencio. No tienes que decir nada. No pueden obligarte a hablar. Pueden usar tácticas de miedo como “te vamos a arrestar si no dices…” o “si no muestras tus documentos…” Mantén tu Quinta Enmienda en alto y no digas nada, porque su gran arma es sacar reacciones emocionales de la gente. Debemos quitarles ese poder diciendo nada.

[00:06:59] Darin: Hablando de armas, el tercer derecho tiene que ver con algo que puedes ponerles en la mano si continúan violando tus derechos.

[00:07:05] Brittney: La red card, es un recurso del Immigrant Legal Resource Center. Se puede descargar online en creo 35 o 39 idiomas. Si no hablas inglés, está tu idioma y en inglés, lo entregas al oficial. Se recomienda imprimirla en papel rojo brillante. Se encuentra en ilrc.org. La entregas y ya estás utilizando tu conocimiento constitucional para protegerte, lo cual es increíble, porque es defender tus derechos constitucionales en vivo.

[00:07:56] Darin: Van a aprovechar que algunos no dominan el inglés y pueden meter un papel bajo tu nariz para firmar. ¿Cuál es tu cuarto derecho?

[00:08:03] Brittney: No firmar nada. No firmes sin tu abogado. Hay muchísimos recursos gratuitos ahora. Otra vez, el ILRC es un gran recurso para abogados pro bono en estos tiempos tan difíciles. No permitas que el miedo te obligue a firmar nada. Si resistes esa presión, tienes más opciones y flexibilidad. Es realmente aterrador y estamos viendo todo en vivo por Instagram y TikTok, así que no permitas que las emociones te hagan tomar decisiones que no te favorecen.

[00:08:45] Darin: La presión del tiempo y el estar forzado puede asustar a cualquiera. Este último derecho lleva un poco más de tiempo en activarse. ¿Cuál es el quinto?

[00:08:57] Brittney: Encontrar un abogado. Hay tantos recursos en redes sociales. Hemos publicado recursos desde la IHC. Si un familiar fue detenido y crees que fue injusto, encuentra un abogado. Enviamos DM, contacta al ILRC. Busca tantos recursos como puedas. Vivimos en una ciudad donde la gente está luchando para que la gente pueda vivir aquí y mejorar sus vidas. Hay tantos recursos, ya sea para ti o tu familia. Eso debe ser tu prioridad. No lo navegues solo. No puedes confiar en los funcionarios del gobierno que deberían protegernos. Encuentra tu propio defensor.

[00:09:45] Darin: Brittney, no puedo agradecerles lo suficiente a ti y a todos los miembros de la IHC por lo que hacen. Te encontré por tus publicaciones en redes y respondiste muy rápido. Si otras personas quieren información rápida o actualizaciones en tiempo real o pedir ayuda, ¿dónde pueden ir?

[00:10:01] Brittney: Pueden ir al Immigrant Legal Resource Center, ilrc.org. No estamos afiliados, pero es una red excelente para recursos específicos de esta situación. Y luego está la Independent Hospitality Coalition. Somos un grupo de propietarios de restaurantes independientes que defendemos las necesidades únicas de negocios locales. No somos McDonald's ni Chuck E. Cheese. Somos los mejores sillas, los oyster bars y los locales auténticos de LA. Estamos siempre disponibles, somos personas reales al otro lado. Si eres dueño de un restaurante o pequeño negocio y te sientes solo o abrumado, no dudes en contactarnos. Leemos todos los mensajes y tratamos de estar presentes, queremos ayudar. Contáctanos para guía.

[00:10:46] Darin: Agradezco toda la orientación. Gracias por ser una luz positiva en estos tiempos difíciles. Gracias a ti, Lisa y a todos. Buena suerte y sigan luchando lo bueno.

[00:10:56] Brittney: Gracias por darnos voz. Ojalá todo mejore pronto.

Photo by Andre Baranowski

Darin sits down with writer, journalist, and Esquire editor Jeff Gordinier to talk about the blues—how to face them, move through them, and maybe, just maybe, how to feel a little better by week’s end. Jeff shares five deeply personal practices that have helped him stay grounded through life’s ups and downs—from long walks and deep sleep to seeing friends IRL and reading poetry like prayer. If you’re feeling a little off lately, this episode is your gentle reminder to slow down, pay attention, and take care.

A message from the Independent Hospitality Coalition for those being affected by ICE raids in Los Angeles:

Attention restaurant owners, be prepared. Thank you to everyone who has shared information that has allowed us to plan.As if restaurant owners and hospitality workers did not have enough to worry about. Our kitchens are what they are because of are immigrant community. ICE is plucking people from our community in the name of law and order, we know the truth.History will remember this moment.

[00:00:00] Darin Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I'm your host, Darin Bresnitz. I'm so excited to be joined by my friend and colleague, Jeff Gordinier. You may know him from his work in Esquire, writing about some of America's best restaurants. He's also an author, poet, and all around great guy. Today, he shares his five rules for curing the blues, or at least getting halfway there. He talks about finding the right balance of exercise. Sleep and connecting with friends. It's a really great and inspiring conversation.

Please note that the content of our conversation is provided for general information only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. If you or anyone is suffering from depression or any type of harmful thoughts, please call the suicide and crisis lifeline, which can be reached at 988.

Let's get into the rules.

Jeff, it is always a pleasure to see you, especially on the week where you were nominated for a James Beard Award for your writing. How you feeling?

[00:01:08] Jeff It's very gratifying, Darin. Thank you for asking about that. The Beard Nomination is for a story that truly is an example of collaboration and listening. A piece about rice and history, and it had a dual byline, but with whom I wrote it and reported it is George McCallman. And George is an old friend of mine of 30 years. And it was just a beautiful process to go to South Carolina and interview people together. You know what's an interesting aspect of this, Darin? I was just down in Laguna Beach visiting my parents. I was staying overnight in this guest room where I live. Back in 1991, 1992, when I could not find a job.

[00:01:42] Darin When you first got into the business of getting started, did you realize all the ups and downs and the emotions that were gonna come with dedicating your life to this?

[00:01:50] Jeff I was sending out my resume and my clips, and I would get this steady stream of rejection letters from newspapers and magazines around the country. I just hit some real lows, you know? And I thought, this is never gonna work out. I'll never find work as a writer. And revisiting that space, Darin and going back in that room, at the same time, I finally got a James Beard Foundation Award nomination. I mean, it was just fascinating. It was fascinating to contemplate that, the power of not giving up. And there were also certain practices that I undertook in 1991, personally, to combat the blues. That's really where it started for me, this five-step practice that you and I are going to discuss. I realized I can trace it back to when I was in my early 20s. And I just took very intentional steps to try and feel better, very much on my mind right now. These are more suggestions than rules because I am not a doctor, I'm not a therapist, of course. And these are not meant to be substitutioned for medication or therapy to the extent that a person would need that. That deeply resonates with me.

[00:02:50] Darin It is really important to understand how to pick yourself up in this world, especially if you have dedicated your life to being a creative. I myself over the last few years, especially as I have more and more work at my computer, have realized that physical activity is a huge part of helping to get my mind right. What is rule one for you? The very first

[00:03:09] Jeff one is just take walks. I go for very aggressive, extensive walks to the extent one recently was about seven hours long on a Sunday.

[00:03:18] Darin Oh, when you said long walks, I envisioned an hour, maybe two if the weather's nice.

[00:03:23] Jeff That's a wonderful thing to do. And I do that as well. In fact, as soon as you and I stop talking, I'm going to go for a walk through Culver City and probably up the 282 steps to the Baldwin Hills scenic overlook. But sometimes I just decide to walk around the neighborhood, go get a green tea at Undergrind. I have found that just moving seems to move around your feelings, right? Like it moves around your brain. It certainly helps with my writing. I find that when I go walking around, ideas just emerge. Oh yeah. And I also find that if I begin the day with the walk, it creates this template that's just

[00:03:58] Darin I agree. I got up and played tennis this morning and I already know it's going to be a better day than when I just go and sit down at my computer. But with every exertion, there needs to come a rest to find that right balance. What is rule number two?

[00:04:11] Jeff Well, rule number two, and I'm sorry to come off as so normcore here, but you've got to get your sleep. Now, I have four children, so I'm sounding very much like a father right now. I have come to believe that there really aren't many cures in life better than a deep night's In fact, Darin, just yesterday, I did not sleep well. We'll get to rule number three soon and I'll explain why. Well basically I let myself have a martini to celebrate this James Beard Foundation nomination and as a result, when I got out of bed, I could not meet a deadlock. I just, my brain was not there. Last night, I went to sleep early after the little guys went to bed. Didn't have anything to drink, didn't overeat. I slept so deeply, woke up at six. And guess what? The story was done by nine this morning. I'm also a big fan of the rest as resistance movement like Trisha Hershey and other writers. 100%. Your creative work in particular has to be nourished by rest. Otherwise you burn out.

[00:05:09] Darin I think if there was a slogan on our family crest, it would be napping as an act of resistance. Oh, I love it. You alluded to this in rule two, and I think for rule three, you either discover it in a healthy way or you come to discover it a hard way.

[00:05:25] Jeff What is rule number three? Take breaks from alcohol and cannabis. And I know I sound very puritanical here and I don't mean to. I'm a food writer. I do drink still. I have not encountered this truth in a hard way. I have had issues with addiction. I have friends who have. That struggle is intense and is a different struggle. What I have dealt with as a professional food writer is something you've encountered. I'm sure you have access to endless pouring of wine and beer and spirits and sake. It is very easy. Not even tempting, just easy to come to it, to surrender to that. And the blunt truth we know is that alcohol and cannabis are depressive. It has been my experience that when they're used day after day, that repetition deepens the blues and there's no way around it. You will get more depressed in early spring, 2020 and just stopped altogether. I didn't drink for about two years. I didn't have any drinks at all. It was, as everyone says, so clarifying, so refreshing, lost weight. Got deeper sleep. My writing got better. The blues kind of whisked away, you know? Yeah. I have since gotten to a point of kind of careful moderation. Sure. Obviously, because of my role at Esquire and other publications, I do have to sip things and try things, and I'm happy to. I like an ice cold martini now and then. I think at this point, Darin, it's once or twice a month I'll have a drink, and I feel better. The clarity is the most amazing thing. The beauty of the morning when you don't feel any headache whatsoever, there's no better feeling. You wake up the next morning like a new person, reborn.

[00:07:00] Darin Once you've taken care of yourself, you've walked, you slept, you haven't imbibed, you're really ready to face the world. What is rule number four?

[00:07:09] Jeff See your friends in the real world. Don't just text with them, don't just talk to them on the phone. I have found it so nourishing to be very intentional about getting together with my friends. And I've noticed this happening as a different kind of act of resistance and rest and healing. I have seen this happening, Darin, all around the country with all different friends. My friend Clancy Miller, she's doing a book about picnics. She does these very intentional picnicks throughout New York City. She'll gather a bunch of friends. And I actually have a dinner series with Nastasia Lopez here in LA called Fun House. And it's the same idea. Let's get creative people around the table, musicians, artists, writers, chefs, have some good food, maybe we'll hear some music, maybe somebody will recite a poem, who knows what will happen, but being intentional, making a point of getting together in a physical way around the table, breaking bread, or going for a walk together, or go for a schvitz together, the ancient sages are not wrong about that, community matters. There's a lot of that Blue Zones longevity research that suggests people live a long time not just because of what they eat but because of how they live. Other people in Sardinia or Okinawa or Costa Rica, there's a real sense of community there and people gather with family and friends. Festivals and feasts and dances. As I near 60, I'm seeing how important that is. So do it. Don't wait. Have a picnic. Form a lunch club. Find your friends who are also struggling with the blues and go out for dinner and maybe don't drink.

[00:08:41] Darin Laid out rules for this physical nature, you've laid out, rules for connectivity. The final rule deals with creativity and finding something that really speaks to you to inspire you. What is rule number five?

[00:08:53] Jeff Read poetry. Now, poetry for me is a spiritual practice. I happen to find poetry uniquely nourishing, and it has been a major part of my life since I was a teenager. I had a period in my life of about 15, 16 years where almost every day I would find a poem that I loved. And I would open the book, hold it open with a stapler, and type the poem by hand to understand the music and the machinery, the sort of flow of the poem. I probably typed up by hand five or 6,000 poems. Wow. Right behind me now are two entire bookshelves full of poetry. I have hundreds and hundreds of books, and this is after having given away a lot for the movie, California. It's a hobby, it's an obsession, but I found it also became, as I would share those poems with friends, it became a form of secular prayer. It also just became a very intentional stepping away from the vortex, the phones, the chaos, the breaking news, the fear, the anxiety. This is a way of saying, no, I'm going to turn that all off for a second, and I'm to read. Some poems by Kevin Young, this is Jelly Roll, this is the book that I give to anyone who tells me they don't like poetry because these are poems full of life and love and energy and lust but they're also accessible. I have made a practice of this again as a sort of cure for the blues, there's a certain time of day when I find myself getting a little down and I'll reach into these stacks of books and find Marie Howe or Ada Limon, I'll find these poems by contemporary poets many times, or ancient poets. There's a sense of relief, and the relief is almost instant. It's almost like I'm forcing my mind into a different place, right? Like I'm sort of trapped in my head, trapped in anxiety, and I'll say, no, no no no, let's think about this for a second. So here's my point, in the aggregate, let's say you have a week, Darin, where you go for walks, you sleep deeply, smoke no cannabis, drink no alcohol, intentionally see your friends around the table, and you read poetry. I probably shouldn't guarantee it, but I kinda guarantee you're gonna feel better at the end of that week. Depression is a serious affliction, it is a serious problem and a lot of people, a lot of us struggle with it.

[00:10:58] Darin I do, yeah.

[00:10:59] Jeff But this is not a practice that you have to be rigid or puritanical about. This is just a way, a way of being, a way of walking forward. I love it.

[00:11:06] Darin Jeff, deeply appreciate you sharing these rules with us. If people want to follow your work or read the piece that you were nominated for, for James Beard Award, where can they go?

[00:11:16] Jeff If you Google my last name, Gordinier, plus Rice, plus Charleston, or George McCallman plus Rice plus Charlston, it will come up. George and I are really proud of that piece and very grateful for that.

[00:11:26] Darin Jeff, thank you so much and would be honored if you could finish this episode with a poem of your choice. What are you going to read?

[00:11:34] Jeff The poet Jorge Luis Borges wrote in Spanish, of course. I'm going to read in English. This is a poem that in English is called The Just. It's essentially about the quiet things that we do in life that can be acts of healing and acts of resistance. And that's why I like it so much. The Just, a man who cultivates his garden as Voltaire wished. He who is grateful for the existence of music. He who takes pleasure in tracing and etymology. Two workmen playing in a cafe in the south, a silent game of chess. The potter contemplating a color and a form. The typographer who sets this page well, though it may not please him. A woman and a man who read the last tersets of a certain canto. He who strokes a sleeping animal. He who justifies or wishes to a wrong done him. He who is grateful for the existence of Stevenson. He who prefers others to be right. These people, unaware, are saving the world.

Darin Beautiful. Jeff, always a pleasure.

Jeff Thank you so much. Good talking to you, man. I really appreciate it.

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Darin sits down with Lien Ta—restaurateur, organizer, and one of the guiding lights of L.A.’s hospitality community. From Here’s Looking At You to Regarding Her, Lien shares her five essential rules for building community with intention, generosity, and just a little bit of magic. It’s a heartfelt, honest conversation about showing up, paying attention, and creating space for connection—both inside a restaurant and far beyond its walls. If you've ever wondered how to turn a dining room into a neighborhood, this one’s for you.

Our Altadena community needs your support! We are requesting Comprehensive Testing and Remediation at AAM Following the Eaton Fire. Despite some surface testing for ash, soot, and char, the interior testing completed by PUSD to date is insufficient given the scale and nature of the fire. Nearby soil has already shown confirmed lead contamination, and numerous reports of hazardous toxins, including lead, were detected indoors near the Eaton Fire—even in buildings that had already undergone remediation.

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[00:00:00] Darin Hello and welcome to five rules for the good life. I'm your host. Darin Bresnitz. Today, we sit down with one of my favorite people in the Los Angeles food scene, Lynn Ta. You may know her from some of her incredible restaurants, All Day Baby. Here's looking at you and as one of the magnetic forces behind regarding her. Today, she shares her five rules about how to build a community. We chat about what it means to. Show up for others. How to build something bigger than yourself. The art- of bringing people together and why she loves magic. So let's get into the rules. Lynn, so good to see you. Always a bright spot in my day when we get to sit down and have a conversation.

[00:00:45] Lien Ta Oh, likewise, Darin. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:47] Darin When I think of the L.A. Food community, few people sit at the top in my mind like you do. What is it like to be a part of the LA food community and what does it mean to you?

[00:00:57] Lien Ta I actually have to say that I did not expect to be at the top of a community. It certainly wasn't my intention when I set forth to opening a first restaurant in 2016. But how it feels is it's a privilege, it's an honor. If I am truly there, then I take it quite seriously. It's important to me that I actually act out this role or these values of mine, and it feels good.

[00:01:19] Darin It should feel good. And the last few months, how the last few years have really shown how important community is in the restaurant space. Now, I think when you open a restaurant, community is a big part of what you're building as well with here's looking at you and all day baby, how have you considered building community while you build a new restaurant?

[00:01:37] Lien Ta I think the goal of opening a restaurant is so lofty as it is. Once you get your doors open, you start to realize, one, you're building a community within the four walls of your restaurant with your staff and the kinds of folks that you're hiring, the energy that you're hoping to cultivate, and the service that we're trying to provide to our guests. And I think over time, I come to realize oh, we're a meeting ground for our guests And hopefully our guests are bringing maybe a second person or another pair of folks to have dinner and then that in itself is building community and then suddenly they're speaking to the strangers next to you sitting at the bar and all of that. And then we build that trust that they can return to our restaurant.

[00:02:18] Darin Yeah, I think it's really important to not just create a space, but to be a part of it as well, which can sometimes feel like the same thing, but a really two separate things. So without further ado, I'd like to get into your five rules of building community, what's the first rule.

[00:02:30] Lien Ta My first rule is give first. It's so much about being generous with what you decided that you are bringing about, like your service, this restaurant, this kind of food, and really providing this space. It really is about being generally. You just have to set that foundation and build the hospitality on your home turf before you even start thinking about a broader community or growth or anything like that.

[00:02:56] Darin Listen, opening up a restaurant is giving so much of yourself in the first place. And part of that comes in understanding what you need to get, which ties directly into rule two.

[00:03:05] Lien Ta Rule two, it's about paying attention. The other day I was at a children's talent show.

[00:03:10] Darin Mmm.

[00:03:11] Lien Ta My friend, who is eight, was going on stage and singing a song with her two colleagues or peers, and I could see how nervous they were. But thinking how brave it was. So I was telling the story to a friend and they were saying, you know, Lynn, you're so good at paying attention. And so I think when you start to see who are the people that are gravitating towards, in my case, my restaurant, I do, I wanna pay attention and think about the strengths and the interests and the desires of each individual employee or each individual guest so that I can find ways to better relate to them and provide. It really starts from being a good listener and really noticing the different gifts people around you are offering and what you can also give back so that you can form those meaningful connections.

[00:03:56] Darin That's so beautiful. Understanding what certain people need is one of the great aspects of being a restaurant owner, especially front of house, like you are, and recognizing that everybody needs something individual is a very special skill.

[00:04:08] Lien Ta You know, as a parent, it's so much about caring, and the caroel almost has to be infinite. And with community, it really is such a core part of what it even means and to really care, you gotta pay attention.

[00:04:22] Darin That infinite well of caring and giving to others ties into rule number three.

[00:04:28] Lien Ta Yes, so rule number three is about recognizing others and showing up for others. I just think it's so important to make people feel seen. Make people feel heard. And a lot of that is just actually verbalizing and showing how much that person means to you or cares for you or how gifted they are in that role and really providing that kind of validation. You may not even know these people very well.

[00:04:54] Darin Uh-huh.

[00:04:55] Lien Ta Like, I have these guests. They're fairly new regulars of mine. They've been coming in as a couple. And the truth is, is I truly didn't know them that well. Elizabeth and Jay are their names. They came to our Halloween party. They dressed up. Long and short of it is, I found out one of them is a magician. And they're gonna have a magic show at the end of next week, and it's to benefit families that have been affected by the wildfires.

[00:05:16] Darin Amazing.

[00:05:17] Lien Ta I'm obsessed with magic. It's one of those few cases where you really can let go and not have a reason or understanding how something happens. So I'm gonna be there. Yeah. I had to buy tickets and like you know and all of this stuff and really just showing up for them even if we don't yet have a fully established foundation of a friendship but they are in my community. It feels so good to push that event out and hopefully get other magic enthusiasts to join along.

[00:05:43] Darin I've always been a big fan of showing up for others and it's extremely important at the start of a relationship. If you can and when you can't show up for somebody has a very long lasting effect.

[00:05:53] Lien Ta Yes. Were so passionate about the food industry and the restaurant industry, and there were so many years or decades where I was not a restaurant owner, but I just had to be a restaurant lover and really show that and go and visit these restaurants, whether now be my very good but before, it's just about showing them that I support. This incredible feat that they've created and I'm there to show up and be hungry.

[00:06:17] Darin It's how we met. Yes, it is. It's we became friends.

[00:06:20] Lien Ta Exactly.

[00:06:20] Darin Being a restaurant lover and now being a restaurateur, part of being in a community and building community is providing a service, which is your rule number four.

[00:06:29] Lien Ta Yes, providing service and and providing what I even would call access. I thought of this word because I was thinking about my friend Patrick Q.

[00:06:38] Darin Mm-hmm.

[00:06:38] Lien Ta In 2018, he reached out to me like a cold request, I guess, I mean, we weren't friends, but I knew him by reputation as the longtime restaurant critic of Los Angeles magazine. And he basically said, I'd like to write a book about what it takes to become a restaurateur. That was actually the title of the book. And I was wondering if I could spend time with you a year exactly. After it was done, I asked him why is it that he asked me to be the subject of this book. And he said, honestly, it was about access.

[00:07:06] Darin Hmm.

[00:07:07] Lien Ta You seem to be someone that is transparent and approachable and all of these things. You know, I really took that to heart when Patrick said that to me. And it is always my goal to be approachable. Like if someone 10, 15 years younger than me, Asian woman, for example, trying to start her own food business feels like she can reach out to me via direct message. I would like to hear from you. I can't necessarily help everyone.

[00:07:31] Darin Sure.

[00:07:32] Lien Ta Thinking about the resources that you are able to share and being helpful in all of those things. If you can even provide that service, if you're doing too much for strangers, are you still being available to your community? So it is this very delicate balance of being as authentically available as you can be to both sides.

[00:07:49] Darin Being available, providing access is a huge part of what it means as an individual to be a part of a community. But I think rule number five is one of the toughest things to do when you're building a community, but something that you are absolutely an expert on and why we're talking to you today. What is your rule number Bringing people together.