Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy – Details, episodes & analysis

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What's a Give-Get Imbalance? What's the Best Treatment for Anxiety and Dysthymia? Can you do Externalization of Voices on Your Own?

The show notes for today’s podcast were largely written prior to the show. Tune in to the podcast to hear the discussion of these questions by Rhonda, Matt, and David.

And keep the questions coming. We enjoy the exchange of ideas with all of you. Thanks!

1. Suzanna asks: What’s a “Give-Get” imbalance? And how can you get over it?
2. Martin asks: What’s the best treatment for anxiety and dysthymia?
3. Eoghan (pronounced Owen) asks: Can you do Externalization of Voices on your own?

 1. Suzanna asks: What’s a “Give-Get” imbalance? And how can you get over it?

Description of Suzanna’s problem.

Suzanna is a woman with a grown daughter with severe brain damage due to a severe brain infection (viral encephalitis) when she was an infant. Suzanna was constantly giving of herself and catering to her daughter. She explains that her daughter can be very demanding and throws tantrums to get her way, and kind of controls the entire home in this way.

She can only talk a little and has the vocabulary of about a two-and-a-half-year-old. She can mostly express the things she wants or doesn`t want on a very basic level. She mostly understands what I want from her, but mostly does not want to do what I ask her to do. She can be very stubborn. And I cannot reason with her because she has her own logic and, in her eyes, only her logic is valid. Maybe all a little bit like a two-and-a-half-year-old.

Suzanna struggles with negative feelings including guilt, anxiety and depression, because she is constantly giving, giving, giving and feeling exhausted and resentful. And she tells herself, “I should be a better mum.” Can you spot any distortions in this thought?

Put your ideas in the text box, or jot them down on a piece of paper, and then I’ll share my thinking with you!

What are the distortions in the thought, “I should be a better mum”?

 

There are many distortions in this thought, including All-or-Nothing Thinking, Overgeneralization, Mental Filtering, Discounting the Positive, Magnification and Minimization, Emotional Reasoning, Self-Directed Should Statements, and Self-Blame. There may be one or two more, too!

The first step in change nearly always includes dealing with motivation and resistance. Suzanna decided to do a Cost-Benefit Analysis, as you can see below, and a revision of her Self-Defeating Belief, as you can see below.

Another helpful step might include “No Practice,” which simply means saying “no” so you don’t constantly get trapped by “giving,” as well as “giving in.”

A third critically important strategy involves the mom and dad making the decision to work together as a loving team in the management of a troubled child, rather than fighting and arguing with each other, as we've discussed on previous podcasts. However, in many, or possibly most cases, the parents are not willing to do this. They are more concerned about being "right" and so they continue to do battle with each other, as well as the child who needs a more loving structure.

David

Cost-Benefit Analysis Self-Defeating Belief: I should be a better mum to my daughter

Advantages of this belief
(How does believing this help me?)

Disadvantages of this belief
(How does believing this hurt me?)

This thought motivates me to:

• Put myself out.
• Push myself to give what I have.
•  Find ways to advance her development.  Find ways to involve her in everyday life.
• Invest myself into her and her life as much as I can, physically, emotionally and time wise.
• Try to find ways that my daughter can have a fulfilling life.
• Try hard to connect to her, her pain, her needs, her sadness and her frustration.
• Try to make her life as easy as possible.
• Try my hardest to see her world through her eyes and gain deeper understanding of how she feels.
• Try to understand what is upsetting her when she throws a tantrum.
• Stay healthy and fit to have energy for her.
• Try to make her life rewarding and meaningful.
• Fulfill my duty as a mum to my daughter who needs my support.
• I can feel good about myself.
• I satisfy other people’s expectations of me.
•  Protects me from criticisms from my husband

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• I am a prisoner to my daughter.
• No matter how hard I try I don`t seem to make a meaningful difference to her life and to her development.
• I am a “Siamese Twin” to her. I cannot move or do anything if she doesn`t want to.
• I reason with my emotions instead of thinking rational at times.
• I let my daughter get away with “murder”.
• I find excuses for her behaviour.
•  I find excuses for her why she cannot behave differently.
• I beat up on myself when I feel I failed her.
• I take all responsibilities away from My daughter and make them my own.
• I blame myself when I cannot motivate her to do something.
• I blame myself when she is bored and unhappy.
• I feel guilty doing my own things.
• I feel guilty when I do not involve her in my activities.
• I feel guilty when I expect her to do entertain herself for a while.
•  I cannot live my own life.
• I cannot be myself at times.
• She rules my life, and she lives my life.
• I feel trapped and frustrated.
•  I feel I need to constantly entertain her.
• I feel responsible for her happiness.
• I feel responsible when My daughter is sad and frustrated.
• I feel exhausted and overwhelmed at times.
•  I feel unhappy and unfulfilled.

 

 

 

 

 

Advantages: 20 Disadvantages: 80

 Semantic Method: Re write your personal value

I want to be a mum to My daughter and help her along and invest myself into her. But I also want to treat myself the way I treat her. She has a “right” to live a happy and fulfilling life, but so do I. Our needs and desires are equally important and deserve the same attention and care. I can only continue to look after My daughter well if I look after myself too and take myself and my needs and desires as seriously as I do hers. There needs to be a give-get balance so that both of us can be healthy and happy and stay healthy and happy. I want to help her to slowly take new steps into independence and support her lovingly along the way.

 

2. What’s the best treatment for anxiety and dysthymia?

Hello Dr. Burns,

What method of treatment would you suggest for GAD and dysthymia? 3rd wave CBT, ACT? What is best based on science?

Can you recommend some books please?

thank you

Martin

David’s Reply

My books are listed on my website, FeelingGood.com. They all describe my approach, which is a bit like CBT on steroids. But every patient is treated individually and uniquely, following a structured and systematic approach that facilitates rapid and dramatic change.

I don’t recommend “methods of treatment” or “schools of therapy” based on so-called “diagnoses,” but treat the individual with TEAM. Every session with every patient is an experiment, with precise measures at the start and end of every session.

The new Feeling Great App, now available, gets a mean of 50% or more reductions in seven negative feelings, such as depression, anxiety, and more, in 72 minutes of starting to use the bot. You can check it out for free! Anxiety and depression often co-exist, and the app targets both.

My book, When Panic Attacks, describes my approach to anxiety, based on four models of treatment: the Motivational, Cognitive, Exposure, and Hidden Emotion Models. If you use the search function, you can find podcasts describing those models. Also, there's a free anxiety class on this website.

Thanks, Martín, for your excellent question!

Best, david

3. Can you do Externalization of Voices on your own?

Hi David,

Long time listener of your great podcast and huge fan of your book Feeling Great.

I’ve often heard you mention that “externalization of voices” is one of, if not the most powerful CBT techniques. I am just wondering if it is still almost as effective when done solo without a therapist i.e. the person takes on both the roles of positive and negative by recording themselves talking or similar?

Also, have you any data comparing the efficacy of TEAM CBT work carried out solo using Feeling Great/your podcast as a guide vs. TEAM CBT performed with a trained TEAM therapist?

I am very much looking forward to the Feeling Great app launch in the UK as hopefully that will be a much more effective way to do personal work without a therapist.

Many thanks,

Eoghan (pronounced Owen)

David’s reply

Thank you, Eoghan! Appreciate your support and thoughtful question.

I don’t have any data on the use of EOV on your own. One could use a recording device, like your cell phone, and record  your negative thoughts in second person, “you,” and try to defeat them when you play them back, one at a time.

But in my experience, people nearly always need an experienced role player to do role reversals to show them how to get to a “huge” win. People almost never get a huge win when doing it for the first time, because the therapist (in the role of positive self) can model unfamiliar strategies for the patient.

Generally, a hugely successful response involves a combination of self-defense, self-acceptance, and the CAT, or counter-attack technique. And sometimes other methods as well, like Be Specific, for example

Radical new learning is definitely the key to success with EOV.

Now, thanks to the app, everyone can practice, since we’ve trained our Obie Bot to role-play with users, do role reversals, give feedback, and so forth.

Great question that I will include in the next Ask David if that’s okay!

We are also exploring the combination of the Feeling Great App plus a trained TEAM therapist from the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California.

We are hoping that 1  + 1 may equal 3. Wouldn’t that be awesome?

What I’ve found when doing research is that the results are virtually always wildly unexpected! Somethings come out great, and some things come out dismally. I always tell myself that “the Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away!”

Seems to be the rule in research! Especially when you’re wanting to be guided by the truth, and not so much by your hopes and expectations.

Best, David

Ask David: What’s Self-Esteem? What’s Self-Acceptance?

In today’s podcast we address six common questions about self-esteem, including:

• What is Self-Esteem?
• How does it differ from self-confidence?
• How does it differ from self-acceptance?
• What’s the difference between conditional and unconditional self-esteem?
• What’s the best way to develop self-esteem?
• What do you mean when you say that once you develop unconditional self-esteem, you should get rid of it as fast as possible?

Please keep the questions coming. We enjoy the exchange of ideas with all of you. Thanks!

Brandon Vance and Heather Clague begin today’s show with a pitch for their upcoming Feeling Great App Group, an 8 week experience that will begin in September. If you use the Feeling Great App, or plan to get it, this group would be an inexpensive and incredible enhancement, so you can meet with like-minded people once a week to schmooze, practice the techniques in the app, and get your questions answered by compassionate and personable experts.

For more information go to www.FeelingGreatTherapyCenter.com/appgroup.

Feeling Great App Group Sept-Nov 2024

Led by Brandon Vance MD and Heather Clague MD, meets online for 80 minutes for 8 weeks, offered Mondays 4-5:20pm Pacific Time, September 23rd - November 11th. Cost is $12 per session ($96 total) plus the cost of the app ($99 per year after 7 day free trial). Sliding scale for both the group and the app are available. No one turned away for lack of funds.

Feeling Down? Try the Feeling Great App for Free!

It's now in the IOS and Android app stores, and you can check it out for free. It's works super fast. Let us know what you think! Thanks!

Rhonda, Matt, and David appreciate your support. Keep your questions and testimonials coming. They mean a lot to us!

Ask David Unfairness Worthwhileness Erasing Depression with Lasers TEAM in the UK What's the Most Powerful Technique?

We have lots of great questions today. The answers in the show notes were written prior to the podcast, and the answers in the live podcast as we discussed these questions may differ somewhat or amplify the written materials in these show notes.

We love your questions. Remember to send them to [email protected].

Special Announcement Attend the Legendary Summer Intensive Featuring Drs. David Burns and Jill Levitt August 8 - 11. 2024 Learn Advanced TEAM-CBT skills Heal yourself, heal your patients First Intensive in 5 years! It will knock your socks off! Limited Seating--Act Fast Click for registration / more information!

Sadly, this workshop is a training program which will be limited to therapists and mental health professionals and graduate students in a mental health field  Apologies, but therapists have complained when non-therapists have attended our continuing education training programs. This is partly because of the intimate nature of the small group exercises and the personal work the therapists may do during the workshop. Certified coaches and counselors are welcome to attend.

But there's some good news, too! The Feeling Great App is now available in both app stores (IOS and Android) and is for therapists and the general public, and you can take a ride for free! Check it out!

Today’s Questions

1. Kiernan asks about “unfairness” and the connection between worthwhileness and achievement.
2. Brittany asks: Can you “erase” feelings of sadness and depression by shining lasers in the patient’s eyes?
3. James asks about the use of TEAM methods in the NHS in the UK
4. Brian asks: Is positive reframing the most successful technique you have used with your patients?

1. Kieran asks (slightly edited for clarity): How would you talk back to negative thoughts like this one: “It's not fair that I can't afford quality food when there are millionaires that will have access to better food and a healthier lifestyle which has an effect on overall health and longevity'”? Or what if you feel like it’s unfair that you should have to pay a lot of money for an expensive dental treatment that you can’t afford? Kieran also asks (slightly edited by david): What if worthwhileness is not based on achievement but there are still things you would like to have and enjoy? They would buy and own things that they happen to like and not to impress others.

Hi David and Ronda, and if Matt is on

I have been listening to your wonderful podcast for about the last 3 years as I drive to work. It has really opened my eyes about how your thoughts create your interpersonal reality. Loved the podcasts on jealousy addiction, perfectionism, achievement addiction and many more.

My questions would be: What about if someone wants to achieve more but it isn't based on worthwhileness? They would buy and own things that they happen to like and not to impress others.

Let's say they wanted to be able to afford a nice house, healthier higher quality food and water. As the quality does have an effect on health especially in the US as the regulations are not the greatest.

However, the fact that they couldn't afford to buy these upsets them? Thoughts: 'It's not fair that I can't afford quality food but there are millionaires that will have access to better food, lifestyle which has an effect on overall health and longevity'

Or if someone has to pay for unexpected expensive dental treatment.

Thoughts: 'It's not fair that I have to pay £14,000 for this treatment'. 'It should be more affordable to lower income households, as it is essential to have functional teeth'

I hope I have explained this well, I would love to hear your thoughts. Keep doing what you are doing and all the best.

Kieran

 

David’s response

Sure Kieran, if you like I will make this an Ask David question for a podcast. LMK if that’s okay, and if it is okay to use your first name.

Great question, and has to do with the theme of acceptance: should I or shouldn’t I?

Here are the quick versions, but we can discuss in more detail on the live podcast. First, I do not find it useful to base my worthwhileness on my achievements or on my failures. I do work hard and like creating things that are helpful to people, and I enjoy earning money to support my family. I can be motivated to work hard to get things we want or need, but I don’t base anyone’s worthwhileness on how much money they have, or anything, to be honest.

In fact, I could also easily accept wanting to buy something really cool, not just because I like it, but because it might impress others, or because they might find it fascinating, too! I don’t try to regulate my life with a lot of shoulds and shouldn’ts, and find that I am happier and more peaceful without lots of shoulds.

In the Feeling Great App I have created a class called “Your PhD in Shoulds.” You might enjoy it!

Second, you can say that it is unfair that some people have more money and resources than other people if you like. And you have every right to feel angry if that’s what you want, as well.

Acceptance is more of a decision than a technique. Take the fact that lions kill deer when they are hungry. You can say, “they should not do that. It’s unfair!” But that won’t stop a hungry lion.

You don’t have to LIKE seeing a lion kill an innocent deer, but you can accept it. Again, that’s a choice. The behavior of a lion is dominated by millions of years of evolution. Humans are no different.

One thing that sometimes helps is to make a list all the REALLY GOOD reasons NOT to accept the “unfairness” in the world. I’ll bet you could come up with at least ten to fifteen strong reasons.

Then you can ask yourself, “Given all those good reason NOT to accept the fact that some people have more and some people have fewer resources, maybe I should just stay good and angry! Why in the world would I want to change?”

Also, when you find an injustice, you can use your energy being good and angry, and complain about it, or you can use your energy to do something about it. Or, you can also work to change yourself, instead of complaining about the world.

I also have a new class on acceptance. It’s called, “Accept this shit? Hell NO!” You might like it as well.

I am babbling so will stop.

Warmly, david

 

2. Brittany asks: Can you “erase” feelings of sadness and depression by shining lasers in the patient’s eyes?

Hi David,

My husband’s boss was telling him she’s going to be doing some laser therapy to “cure” her depression. She had to undergo 9 hours of testing to see if she’d be a candidate.

Apparently, they plan to shine lasers in her eyes to “erase” her sadness.

Obviously, I assume this is a load of garbage. But have you ever heard of such a thing? Is this just hypnosis?

Best, Brittany

David’s Reply

Hi Brittany,

Probably. As they say, follow the money! There is a placebo effect if you believe something will help, so tons of garbage gets served up as costly gourmet food.

You can read up on this on the internet I suspect. Let me know what you learn!

Best, david

Brittany responds to David

Love your answer! I was looking into it and read they use a cold laser in the eyes which allegedly releases endorphins. I already know from you that just like with exercise and that study about the endorphin blockers, it made no difference. People just feel better because they think they are doing something good for their body by exercising.

They also allege that the lasers aid damaged neurological tissue. They claim it has helped many patients but there is no data backing it up that I see.

They really lost me when I read that lack of activity, stress, and maternal deprivation cause depression in the first place.

Thanks! Brittany

David adds

As it turns out, I know two laser experts who are regulars on my Sunday hikes. Dr. Alexander Makowski is a brilliant scientist who is involved in the research and development of lasers and their marketing. Here is his email, along with some terrific links to articles about the hype of “low light lasers.”

Hope you enjoy the email and links from Alex:

Hi David,

I'll chime in too! From a different angle.

Zak knows some great doctors who are doing real work, but the general field of low-level laser/ light therapy (LLLT) for medical issues has been fraught with charlatans for some years.

(David note: Zak is a laser expert at the Stanford Medical School and is currently preparing a blog on the topic of LLLT. I will include a link to her blog when it is published, likely in a couple weeks. She is awesome and also often joins our Sunday hikes!)

Dr, Alex Makowsy continues

Good work by Tiina Kaaru (https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/profile/Tiina.Karu-8010) and Juanita Anders (https://www.usuhs.edu/profile/juanita-anders-ms-phd) on mechanisms behind using light to stimulate our mitochondria or deactivate infectious bacteria are well documents

However, the good work done by the few was overshadowed and worse, was perverted for many years into crackpot devices using bad stats and poorly designed studies. Or sometimes just straight preying on vulnerable people. It is the great shame of the laser industry. Worse yet, some of these devices were actual lasers that led to people getting hurt.

I can't recommend in good conscience that lasers be shone into eyes at any time other than diagnostic devices meant to diagnose the eye itself. It may be that some day soon a good scientific body of evidence changes my stance but not yet...

The story starts in the origin of my journey into light and lasers. I got involved in this field in 2005 while taking an elective class on optics and lasers when I got a call from my mom that she was seeking a laser therapy for her fibromyalgia.

My mother's desire to get her fibromyalgia treated with a "cold laser" pulled me into this field since I was taking a class with a professor who later became my doctoral mentor. A full semester of my free time disappeared as I tried to source out of print articles and do a deep dive on whether this was real or garbage.

A research term paper and a conference visit later I could finally see the same trends you saw with medication. I talked her out of the potentially dangerous unproven device usage.

[As you may have suspected, In fact my mom was having significant issues in her marriage and life and a very good doctor set her straight. My mom divorced and is now happily remarried, about 95 pounds lighter, no fibromyalgia or serious insomnia. If only we had known you back then she would have recovered in a session or two rather than 3 years]

However, in the process, I dug into some of the real research that small doses of light can affect our bodies in ways we don't understand fully due to lack of research.

Fast forward several decades and some of the best researchers survived the public scandal of LLLT and found a scientific mechanism (cytochrome c oxidase activation) to explain observed changes in mitochondrial activity. However, the scientists don't claim to cure everything or anything. Then they published this mitochondrial activation and suddenly:

This, of course, proves that blogablum does in fact exist and now the truth about the panacea is available for all!!

David note: “blogablum” is a fake nonsense word I made up that refers to nothing meaningful. Now continuing with the Alex email:

This is a good review of the history and current evidence about it : https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/medical-critical-thinking/hype-around-photobiomodulation

But if you want the real goods, the hard truth about cold lasers has been out there for over 15 years:

Introducing the New Low Level Laser Treatment!

youtu.be

The following search on YouTube will reveal the secrets of the universe:

"cold laser before:2009"

Warmly,

Alexander J Makowski, Ph.D.

Dr. Matt May’s reply

Hi David,

Thank you for forwarding this question to me.  I am very concerned and wonder if this may fall under the category of 'malpractice'.

For one, I am unaware of any FDA approved treatment for depression that involves shining lasers into people’s eyes to erase their sad memories.  For a list of FDA approved treatments for depression, you could refer to:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK559078/

It's possible that there is new evidence I'm not aware of, but I searched online for studies of light in treatment of depression and was unable to find any placebo-controlled trials.  This is a problem because placebo responses can be so high in the case of depression and anxiety.  There were some studies on light therapy, but nothing fitting the description of 'shining lasers into eyes to erase sad memories'.

Other concerns I have relate to the high cost of such an extensive “evaluation”, as well as possible risk of shining lasers into someone’s eyes.  In the absence of evidence supporting the treatment, it seems like a high cost, and potential risk, to the patient, hence my concern for malpractice.

It's pretty common for people with depression to feel a sense of desperation, especially after many failed efforts to address their symptoms.  This group of individuals are likely to be extremely susceptible to scams and purveyors of 'snake oil' (sham treatments).

It's also concerning to me because the theory behind the idea of shining light into people's eyes to erase sadness doesn't make logical sense to me.  It's a potentially-testable hypothesis, but it's such an absurd hypothesis that I don't see it as worth testing or entertaining.

If we are defining depression as some combination of worthless, hopeless, ashamed and guilty feelings, then the hypothesis that such feelings could be meaningfully addressed by such a crude instrument as a laser or a pill or an electrical impulse is absurd.

This is because our feelings arise from our thoughts/perceptions.  I've never met a single person or patient who was suffering from depression but had healthy positive thoughts about themselves.  I've also never met someone who had patterns of negative thinking, but felt fine, up-beat and positive.

The idea that a pill, a laser, a magnetic pulsation or electrical current could selectively alter the specific thoughts that cause depression doesn't make sense with what we know about the brain and thoughts and feelings.  How could a pill, for example, which crosses the blood-brain barrier and impacts every neuron in the brain, selectively target only the neurons that give rise to depressed thinking?  It's like imagining that we could carpet-bomb a city but only kill the murderers and rapists.

I'd encourage all potential clients who are receiving treatment for depression or other conditions to ask their providers for literature that documents the effectiveness of the treatment and to get a second opinion if they are unsure.

These are my 2-cents on the topic and I could be completely wrong about it all.  Hoping to hear from others what they think.

Also, David, I saw several other people included in the invitation to respond to this question but I didn't see them cc'd.  Perhaps they were bcc'd?

Wishing you the best,

fondly,

Matt

David’s reply to Matt

Thanks, yes, I have a fantastic response already in the show notes from Dr. Alex Makowski who does research and development of lasers with valid medical applications. His thrust is similar to yours.

Our field is littered with junk “scientism” intended to fool and exploit people, similar to the snake oil salespeople who use to go from town to town in America selling magical “elixirs” that “cured” just about everything!

But people are endlessly gullible, and con artists are still in endless abundance these days, it seems!

Best, david

Will add your kind and thoughtful comment to the show notes!

 

3. James asks about the use of TEAM methods in the NHS in the UK.

Hi Rhonda,

I hope you are well. I had a couple of questions for an 'ask David' on the podcast if that's okay. A bit of background....

I am Level 1 Team and have attended David's training in Atlanta. I live in the UK and have recently changed career to work in the NHS delivering CBT interventions for patients because David's work inspired me so much.

The NHS uses specific interventions for particular diagnoses and because I am in training I have to try and stick to this. I do use the TEAM materials and approach when I can and have already seen some great results.

The NHS uses 'Behavioural Activation' for certain patients with Depression and I just wondered what David thought about the effectiveness of this (perhaps compared to Cognitive Restructuring). I believe Beck introduced this into the CBT model as he thought it was useful.

Another question was regarding treatment of GAD and whether dividing worries between hypothetical and practical, and then using a certain time to actually worry rather than letting the worries dominate throughout the day was something he thought was useful or had heard about.

Thanks so much for all the great work you are all doing and inspiring people all over the world!

Kind Regards James Bibby.

David’s response

Hi James,

Thanks for the great questions. In today’s recording of an upcoming Ask David podcast, we can address:

1. 1. The history of “Behavioral Activation,” including the pros and cons of this approach.
   2. The history and pros and cons of “Worry Breaks.”
   3. The idea of matching a “technique” to a “diagnosis,” as opposed to learning to treat the whole patient with TEAM.
   4. The results of our latest research with the Feeling Great App, and whether it might have some value for patients struggling with depression and anxiety disorders in the UK.

Best, David

Matt’s Thots:

Great question! I’m looking forward to discussing.

There are certainly some techniques that are more effective, than others, for addressing specific negative thoughts. Meanwhile there are a number of problems that come up when we are, as clinicians, throwing solutions at diagnoses, rather than treating the human being who is suffering.

Studies on the treatment of PTSD at the VA, for example, showed veterans often got worse after this approach, in which their diagnosis was matched with a method, ‘prolonged exposure’, without any agenda-setting. This just retraumatized lots of veteran!

Similarly, if someone is secretly blaming, and haven’t experienced the ‘death of the blaming self’, they might be assigned ‘communication skills training’, only to see this backfire, because their intent is still to try to change someone, rather than accept them.

You might tell a patient with depression that they should go exercise, only to cause them to resist you, ‘you don’t understand, I can’t even get out of bed!’. In short, most therapy fails or even makes patients worse because it doesn’t consider the good reasons to continue to blame, give up, criticize ourselves, etc.

4. Brian asks: Is positive reframing the most successful technique you have used with your patients?

I can see how it would cure someone in 2 hours!

Feel free to use my question and do and use my name if you wish. I'd be honored.

Best,

Brian

David’s reply

Hi Brian,

Thanks. Great question! It’s one of the latest powerful techniques, but Ext of Voices might still be the “champion.” Using them in the T, E, A, M sequence is especially powerful. Positive Reframing often gets them closer, but not quite all the way to enlightenment.

Externalization of voices (EOV) often gets them over the finish line, especially if you know how to use it skillfully, incorporating Self-Defense with the Acceptance Paradox and Counter-Attack Technique! In fact, you can incorporate many of my > 100 techniques when using EOV, such as Be Specific, Semantic Technique, Examine the Evidence, and a host of other.

Best, david

Matt’s comments

I agree, Positive Reframing and Externalization of Voices are incredibly powerful and it’s often what we’re doing when we see recoveries. What works for a given individual, however, is quite hard to predict, in advance and there’s a ‘process’ to therapy, such that we can’t really skip steps, except in some unusual circumstances.

Some other super-powerful methods include Externalization of Resistance, Double Standard, Flooding, Feared Fantasy, and the Hidden Emotion Technique. I’m probably forgetting some.

Thanks for listening today!

Matt, Rhonda and David

313: People who “yes-butt” you. People who resist exposure. Does God exist? Does the “self” exist? How to you justify Ellis?  "Should" we care about Putin's war on Ukraine?

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1. Rhonda asks: How can you respond to someone who yes-butts you? 2. Thomas asks: Do we have a self? Does God exist? 3. Thomas also asks: Ellis said we should upset ourselves over someone else’s problems, but how about Putin, and Russia? Note: The answers below were generated prior to the podcast, and the information provided on the live podcast may be richer and different in a number of ways. 1. Rhonda asks: How can you respond
to someone who yes-butts you? David’s Reply Thanks, Rhonda. We can demonstrate this with Matt on the podcast recording later today! Matt’s Reply: The answer is to fall back to Empathy and try to see how we are creating the problem.  For example, when we are giving advice, we may have fallen into a trap, in which we are getting ahead of their resistance and would want to get behind it. As often happens, the question, and its answer, went in an unexpected direction. Rhonda, like many therapists, noticed that one of her social anxiety patients was subtly resisting exposure—facing her fears. Matt and Rhonda model how to respond to patients who keep putting off the exposure. This answer illustrates how therapists and the general public alike can improve your use of the Five Secrets of Effective Communication (LINK) with the use of “Deliberate Practice,” with role reversals and immediate feedback on your technique. Rhonda starts with a low grade, and then rapidly achieves an A grade! Click here for the Five Secrets of Effective Communication 2. Thomas asks: Do we have a self? Does God exist? Thank you for giving me your time and attention. I appreciate it, even if we don't agree. I have talked about whether or not God and the self exist. David Hume made the argument about not having a self, only perception. Of course, questions arise if we don’t have a “self.” Thomas Thomas also comments on Nathaniel Brandon: Why do we use the words who? Him? Her? He she they.?? I certainly don't believe Nathaniel Brandon’s horseshit. He talks about a teenage self, a father self, and a child self And all that is just horseshit. But do we have any self? David’s response: Hi Thomas, Thanks for your question! You ask, “But do we have any self?” You ask about God, too. People have been asking for my chapter on the “Death of the Self,” and my efforts to debunk the idea of a “self.” I have not had the time and motivation to bring that chapter back to life, since it is so hard for people to “get” what I’ve been trying to say, which is exactly what Wittgenstein and the Buddha were trying to say. But I will try to share one idea with you, in the hopes that it might make sense. As I have previously suggested, these questions about some “self” or “God” have no meaning. For example, how about this question: ‘What would it look like if someone had no ‘self?’ What, exactly, are we talking about? I know what this question means: “So you think Henry is too high on himself.” This means that we think some person named Henry is arrogant or narcissistic, something like that, and we want to know if someone agrees with us. I understand this question, it makes sense. There is a distinct difference between people who are quite humble and folks who are overly impressed with themselves. So, we are talking and using words in a way that has meaning and makes sense. However, I cannot answer the following question because it does not make any sense to me: “Does Henry have a ‘self’?” So, this question, to me, is language that is out of gear, like a car in neutral gear. No matter how hard you press on the accelerator, it will not move forward or backward. If you cannot “see” or “grasp” the difference between my examples of a meaningful question and a nonsensical non-question, that’s okay. In my experience, few people can grasp or “get” this. But to me, the difference is quite obvious. Is it okay if I use your email as a somewhat edited “Ask David?” I can change your name if you prefer. I don’t think people will “get” my answer, but hope springs eternal! David Matt’s Response Many brilliant minds have addressed this question in more eloquent and thorough ways than I could, including the Stanford-trained neurologist and philosopher, Sam Harris, in his book, ‘Free Will’ and Jay Garfield in his book, ‘Losing Ourselves’ There’s very little I can say, about this topic, that hasn’t been said more eloquently by individuals like these and many others. Meanwhile, I’m glad that this question has arisen on the podcast because I see clinical utility in the implications of this question, including in the treatment of depression, anxiety, anger, narcissistic pride and relationship problems. For example, I might be thinking, ‘I’m so mad at my (bad) self for eating all those cookies’.  Or, I’m so proud of myself for making a million dollars’.  I might start to think I deserve more, because of my special self and feel superior and angry, ‘that persons (bad self) shouldn’t have cut me off in traffic!’. When we take the ‘self’ out of the equation, we realize that these thoughts don’t make sense.  If our brains are just following the laws of physics, without any self, jumping in there to influence the process, then we couldn’t have done differently, with the brains we had, and neither could anyone else. Hence, the idea that people have ‘selves’, which can be good or bad, make decisions and the like, is a setup for suffering.  In the cookie example, I would have to train my brain, through practice with therapy methods, to develop a different set of habits, rewiring of my brain, to reach for a salad rather than a cookie.  I can’t simply insist that my ‘self’ rewire my brain for me.  I’d have to practice and do my TEAM therapy homework! Anger and Narcissism are some of the hardest-to-defeat problems.  However, realizing other people are simply doing what their brains are programmed to do, takes away the anger and blame.  Just like we wouldn’t hold a grudge for years against a wild animal that bit us, we could also forgive and accept a person who bit us.   and we can’t feel unnecessarily superior or proud of our ‘self’ if we accomplish something wonderful, because we don’t’ have a ‘self’ that did those things, just a brain and the right environment, neither of which we can take credit for. This approach is called ‘reattribution’ in TEAM, which is useful for defeating ‘self-blame’ and ‘other (self) blame’. Here are some other methods to leverage the no-self concept and free your mind of this hazardous way of thinking: 1. Experimental Technique:  Try to define what a ‘self’ is.  Then conduct an experiment to see whether the self is capable of doing the things you think it can do.  For example, can your ‘self’ stop understanding the words you are seeing on this page?  Or does your brain helplessly decipher the shapes of these letters into meaningful sounds and language?  Can your self exert its free will to decide to focus exclusively on one thing for one minute, like your breath or a point on the wall?    It can’t.  If your self can’t do such simple tasks, what can it do?  One can see meditation as a kind of ‘experiment’ to see whether our ‘self’ is calling the shots, using its free will, or if our brains are just doing what brains do. 2. Socratic Questioning: You can ask questions that can’t be answered to show that the ‘self’ is more like a ‘unicorn’ than a cat.  For example, how big is the ‘self’?  What’s it made of? Where is it located?  Can you see it on a MRI?  No radiologist has ever visualized a ‘self’ and you probably realize you can’t answer these questions, any more than you can, ‘what do Unicorns like to eat?’, bringing us closer to understanding that it’s probably a made up thing. 3. Examine the Evidence: What evidence is there that there’s a Self?  What evidence is there that there is no self? On the latter side, Consider Occam’s Razor, which suggests that the better hypothesis is the simpler one which still explains the observations.  One hypothesis is we have a brain generating consciousness.  Another hypothesis is that we have a brain that generates consciousness and a self that is having those experiences, operating the brain.  Based on Occam’s Razor, the better hypothesis is the former, that we have a brain creating consciousness. 4. Outcome Resistance: People get scared off by the idea that there’s no self or free will, that their brain is making decisions, without a self intervening.  In Christian Tradition, for example, Thomas Aquinas essentially invented the concept of ‘free will’ so that God’s punishment of Adam and Eve could be explained, morally. Otherwise, God would seem rather cruel, to create a system where he knew that would happen.  This is an example of how ‘free will’ and the ‘self’ are linked to blame and anger. Even if you don’t believe in God, you might be concerned that the idea that there is no free will would mean that the criminal justice system would fall apart.  Criminals could say, ‘I had no choice’.  Talking back to these elements of ‘resistance’ could help free one’s mind. For example, without free will, it’s true that blaming other people and retaliatory justice wouldn’t make sense.  However, one could still enforce laws, only in a compassionate way, for the sake of protecting others making the same mistake.  A murderer, if they realized this, could mind meaning in fulfilling their sentence, realizing they were doing a service to humanity, rather than being punished for their bad self.  Instead of seeing other people as having ‘bad’ selves, we can have a sense of sadness, connection and concern, even with a murderer, when carrying out justice, understanding that, ‘there but for the grace of God, go I’. David mentions, in passing, a mild red flag with the concept of "free will." He points out that this is another concept, like "God" or the "self," that has no meaning, if you really grasp what Ludwig Wittgenstein was trying to say in his classic book, Philosophical Investigations. One way to "see" this, although it is admittedly almost impossible to "see:" because it is so simple and obvious, would be to ask yourself, "What would it look like if we "had" something called "free will?" And what would it look like if we "didn't?" The question is NOT "do we have free will," but rather, "Does this concept have any meaning? Once you suddenly "see" that the answer is no, you will be liberated from many philosophical dilemmas. But as they say, enlightenment can be a lonely road! the Buddha, as well as Wittgenstein, ran into this problem that people could not "grasp" the simple and obvious things they were trying so hard to say! As humans, we get spellbound by the words we using, thinking that nouns, like "self," must refer to some "thing" that either exists or doesn't exist! To my way of thinking the question is NOT "Does god exist" or "do human have free will," but rather, do these questions make sense? Do they mean anything? The answer, to my way of thinking (DB), is no. However, . . . you might not "get" this! 3. Thomas also asks about Dr. Albert Ellis Hi David, Do you agree with Ellis that one is better off without making oneself upset over other people's problems? What about Putin and Russia and all the violence, another mass shooting, and trump running for president again? Ellis didn't think one should be disturbed about these things. Or at least upset. What do you think? David’s reply Hi Thomas: Here’s my take. Healthy and appropriate negative feelings exist! One SHOULD be upset by horrific war crimes. I suspect that if Beck and Ellis, were they still alive, they would both strongly agree, but of course, I cannot speak for them! Thanks for listening today! Matt, Rhonda, and David!

How to Master the Five Secrets: If You Dare! In our recent podcast surveys, one of the highest rated show topics was learning therapy techniques, both for therapists and for the general public. That’s why today we’re going to take a deeper dive on some of the fine points of the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. We’ll show you how to use them with individuals who are angry and hostile, including some patients with Borderline Personality Disorder as well as kids who may be ticked off at a parent. These topics were specifically requested by people who completed the podcast survey. Link to Five Secrets The Five Secrets are like a fantastic musical instrument, capable of working magic for troubled relationships. You can’t just sit down at a fine grand piano and pound on the keys and expect great music to emerge. You’ll just get cacophony. To learn the Five Secrets, you need:

• Great determination and desire
• The willingness to endure the “Great Death” of the “self,” or pride.
• Tons of ongoing practice with immediate feedback and deliberate practice involving role reversals until you get it “right,” or receive an “A.”

To get started, Rhonda and David made a list of a few of the most challenging criticisms a therapist might hear from a patient, or a parent might hear from a teenager. Criticisms from patients included:

• You don’t care about me!
• I’m not getting better. You’re not helping me!
• You charge too much!
• All you care about is your darn techniques.
• That’s not my child’s name! You’re not listening to me!

And this one, from a first time patient referred by the courts:

• I got anxious last night and masturbated to your image, which I found on the internet, and it really helped!

These are some criticisms from kids:

• Stop nagging me!
• Stop giving me advice. I don’t want any advice!

We demonstrated the “Intimacy Exercise” I have created for our training programs. You can use this exercise to work on conflicts with patients and conflicts with loved ones. It works exactly the same way in both situations. You’ll need someone to practice with. Step 1. One of you agrees to play the critic and the other plays the role of the person being attacked (therapist or parent, for example.) Step 2. The person playing the role of the critic verbalizes the hostile comment. Step 3. The person playing the role of the therapist / parent responds as effectively as you can, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. Now you must STOP. The exchange is done. No further interaction in the role playing format is permitted. Step 4. The person who played the role of the therapist / parent gives himself / herself a grade between A and F. Ask yourself, “How well did I do just now?” Step 5. The person who played the role of the critic gives the therapist / parent a letter grade, and then provides the following specific kinds of feedback using Five Secrets language. Positive Feedback: Here’s what you said that worked pretty well. Your Thought Empathy was great, and your Disarming Technique was fairly good. Your Stroking was excellent, especially when you said X, Y, or Z. Negative Feedback: Here’s what you said that needs a little fine tuning: Your Feeling Empathy was completely missing—you did not acknowledge how the other person was feeling. Your “I Feel” statements were also missing, and there was no Inquiry at the end. Then you can suggest ways to include the Five Secrets elements that were missing or “off,” and demonstrate how you might improve the response to the criticism with a role reversal, followed by another round of grading and positive and negative feedback. Continue using role-reversals until both parties can get an A on the exercise, always using the same harsh criticism that you’re trying to learn how to master. Don’t try something new until you’ve mastered the thing you’re working on. The practice is powerful but hard, and requires the philosophy of “joyous failure.” This means welcoming the chance to get immediate feedback about your skills, or lack of skill, instead of getting blown away, defensive, or “yes-butting” the person who’s trying to correct your technique. You will hear some pretty dramatic examples of this on today’s podcast! The Five Secrets can be life-changing, but the price of learning is fairly stiff. If you want the rewards, the exercise we demonstrate in today’s podcast can be incredibly helpful—but scary! Also, you can read my book, Feeling Good Together, and do the written exercises while reading if you’re a therapist or a general citizen. This helps a lot. Dr. Jill Levitt said she kept Feeling Good Together on her nightstand for more than a year when she first joined by training group at Stanford. Her dedication and hard work have clearly paid off for her. If you’re a therapist, you can also read the chapters on E = Empathy in my Tools, Not Schools, of Therapy book, and make sure you do the written exercises while reading! Thanks so much! And good luck if you’re brave enough to try our “Intimacy Exercise!” David and Rhonda  

Check it Out!  The September, 2022 Podcast Survey  Dear Podcast fans. Thank you for your responses to our podcast survey yesterday, asking about your likes and dislikes, as well as your suggestions for the future of our podcast. The following report is based on 355 responses we received the first day of the survey. A link to the survey report will be included in spots so you can examine it for more information! LINK TO SURVEY RESULTS Thanks So much! Rhonda and David PS Rhonda is now our official Host and Producer! Demographics Gender: 58 / 42 = female / male Age: 21 to >70. None under 21. Education

• Grad school: 64%
• College: 29%
• High school, grammar school, other: the rest

Comment: high average education level is likely due to high number of therapists Therapist

• No 56%
• Yes 33%

TEAM certified therapist

• Yes 15%
• No 85%

Podcast Interests Listen to improve your therapy skills?

• Yes 47%
• No 53%

Listen for personal healing?

• Yes 90%
• No 10%

How many episodes have you listened to?

• All 26%
• A lot 37%
• About half 16%
• Just a few 21%

What elements do you value the most?

• Teaching Therapy Techniques 86%
• Live Work 72%
• Story Telling 58%
• Critical Thinking 57%
• Inspiration 54%
• Warmth 46%
• Laughter 42%
• Guest Interviews (36%)
• Under 30%: Tears (23%), Banter (29%), Controversy (17%),

What types of podcasts appeal to you the most?

• Therapy Methods 194
• Live work 184
• Anxiety Help  168
• Ask David 163
• Self-Help  158
• Depression Help 156
• Relationship Problems 154
• TEAM Training 126
• Habits and Addictions 107
• Procrastination  94
• Guest Experts 88
• Weight Loss 51

Other What do you think about paid ads?

• Hate it 28%
• Love it 20%
• Unsure 52%

Would you recommend the podcast to a friend?

• Yes 96%
• No 4%

What grade would you give the podcast?

• A 77%
• B 20%
• C 3%
• D 0%
• F 0%

Written Responses Elements you like the best (selections 356 responses)

• Learning about techniques to help patients from experts in the field! Realistic and humorous portrayals and disclosure
• Always pick up a new concept
• Brilliant teaching and great techniques
• The idea that long- lasting change can happen quickly
• The use of Paradox
• There is done sort of therapy by proxy that seems to happen during live therapy work. Even when situations are different, amazingly meaningful.
• I enjoy the Q&A podcasts where you cover 4 to 5 great questions. Having Rhonda and Matt (and, of course, Dr. Burns!) give their viewpoints on topics that can be helpful to everyone is very useful.
• Learning how to retool my brain.
• I love the feeling of comfort I get from hearing your stories, both personal and from guests. I was particularly touched by Rhonda’s openness when she first joined the podcast and worked through her feelings of inadequacy. I think about those episodes a lot because I relate to them.
• Feel less alone
• The live therapy sessions. Hearing Dr. Burns, Jill, Rhonda and others do externalization of voices, positive reframing, and other techniques is SO incredibly powerful.
• Hundreds more! (link)

Elements you like the least (selections 356 responses)

• The long intros sometimes before the topic gets started
• Boasting, rambling on and on.
• Sometimes the attitude towards other practices and theories is condescending and fails to appreciate the contributions different approaches make to understand and alleviate suffering.
• endorsement emails
• Something I've noticed in live coaching is that there seems to be a strong focus on externalization of voices as a method. In Feeling Great, I love your 50 methods - but I wonder why it feels like 80% of the time you focus on externalization of voices vs other methods.
• Honestly, that's super nit-picky. But I felt like I had to include something in the "liked least" section. Otherwise, I think the Feeling Good podcast is A+++
• Not a fan of the hokey -- the weird Hello Rhondas, etc. Ditto for the four letter words. IMO these detract from the content, dumb down/lessen the credibility of the presenters and content. Distracting and make me cringe. I won't quit listening... just unprofessional and low class.
• Hard to complain about something this good
• Hundreds more (link)

What other topics might interest you?

• Trauma work. Meaning - I find that MANY people are talking about "Childhood Trauma" as if it's a separate thing. "Trauma-Informed Therapy" seems to be a new hot topic. Wondering what you feel about trauma and this seeming growth in trauma-focus.
• Use 5 secrets in relationship with someone with borderline personality disorder
• 5 secrets training
• How to make friends
• How TEAM principles can help you raise happy/healthy kids!
• Discussion of how to manage anxiety when it’s hard to pinpoint the direct cause, making it hard to challenge our thoughts. Also topics on panic attacks.
• integrating the buddha dharma with cbt
• Definitely PTSD (I have PTSD from finding my partner dead after a suicide), body image, more about dating and relationships.
• How to treat low self esteem.
• How to increase happiness. How to make touch decisions about careers or other things that have pros and cons. For example, doing the decision making form and having the scores be around 0 or both negative scores.
• How to heal after a break up and how to manage rejection while dating (e.g., someone rejects you after a few dates)
• I would love to see more episodes on habits and addictions and also a life episode on shame attacking exercises!
• Hundreds more (link)

Comment: Some of these excellent suggestions have been covered already, and you can find them on my website by using the search function and / or the list of podcasts with links. For example, we’ve already had a five part series on boosting happiness (link) as well as boosting self-esteem (link) and how to use each of the 5 secrets (link), and much more. Take a look! (link to list of podcasts) What other topics might interest you the least?

• Anything related to organized religion. (Disorganized religion, I'm okay with!) lol) ;)
• Weight loss/eating disorders
• promoting other therapists
• "worried well" privileged patients.
• Anxiety and phobias
• Can’t think of any
• Why TEAM CBT is superior to all other forms of therapies.
• Nothing it is all helpful to make me realize I am not alone and we all have our own internal struggles
• I love it all
• Therapist workshop announcements
• Hundreds more (link)

Suggestions for improving the podcast (194 responses)

• Keep doing listener questions and answers and case examples.. the Buddhist perspective of not having a self and bigger picture etc
• Hidden emotion technique examples ongoing as I think that helps to know what common pressures people have experienced in Davids practice that we might also see etc.
• Maybe fewer judgy comments, including more guest speakers, more inclusivity. Always love the live work
• Keep bringing in therapist from around the country in the world to talk about what they do with team
• No, just please keep making it.
• DON'T CHANGE A THING!
• I mention above but I think getting David out to more of the enormous self-help podcasts would really help spread the word and open a lot of people’s eyes. A big one that I think would be a great fit is the Tim Ferriss podcast

Comment: Thanks. I’d love to be on any podcasts with large audiences. Please contact them and tell them to invite me! I’m not comfortable and don’t have the time to do this or the resources to hire a PR / marketing person, but they might respond to suggestions from listeners.

• It seems like a majority of the live therapy patients are TEAM CBT therapists so sometimes that can make me wonder if the techniques are as helpful to someone who doesn't already believe in the efficacy of the treatment. I'd like to see more treatment with people who are unfamiliar with TEAM CBT, although I realize that may not be possible.

Comment: I do not generally work with the general public because that would be tantamount to entering into a therapeutic relationship and would expose me to liability issues. Since I work for free, I cannot and will not take this chance, and liability insurance is costly. When I work with therapists, it is personal work in the context of their training, and is not construed as the start of a therapeutic relationship.

• I have done extensive research with large numbers of people, comparing the ease and nature of treating shrinks vs the general public, and there is absolutely no difference in the types of problems they have, the intensity, or the speed of recovery.
• If anyone would like to volunteer to indemnify me, which would be immensely costly for you, I’ll happily work with anyone!
• Hundreds more (link)

Why would you or wouldn’t you recommend it to a friend?

• I already have multiple times. Because the advice is different to what I hear elsewhere, it’s compassionate, blunt, and takes an inward look with a huge dose of kindness.
• It can change the way you live life
• Rhonda and David are so genuine together, smart, funny and informative
• It would help them, especially friends with depression or anxiety
• It is the highest quality methodology delivered by the highest quality therapists!!
• It helped and encouraged me
• too much advertising and plugging
• Because it offers real practical information that could be useful to anyone
• It helped me get out of a black hole
• It’s entertaining and informative.
• Life skills everyone should learn!
• Read both Feeling Good and Feeling Great. Dr. Burns’ content has saved my life! The five secrets has rewired my brain and helped me save my relationship, too! And Dr. Burns’ personality and sense of humor is just the icing on the cake.
• Hundreds more (link)

Thank you to all who responded!  We appreciate you!

David and Rhonda

 

Smashing Shyness-- Shame-Attacking and Beyond Come to our Full-Day Workshop on Sunday, October 2, 2022 For therapists and lay people alike Click here for registration and more information Today we interview our beloved Jill Levitt, PhD who will be joining me in teaching the upcoming social anxiety workshop on October 2nd. Jill is the co-leader of my weekly psychotherapy training group at Stanford, and is the co-founder and Director of Training at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California. Social anxiety was one of the most frequent problems that patients sought help for when I was in private practice in Philadelphia. Because of my own severe and persistent social anxiety since childhood, it’s my favorite problem, too. Whatever you’ve had, I can tell you that I’ve had the exact same thing, too, and know how sucky it can be. I can show you the path to freedom from that affliction, and what a joy that will be! According to the DSM5, there are at least five types of social anxiety:

1. Shyness
2. Public Speaking Anxiety
3. Performance Anxiety. This a broad category that can include athletic or musical performance, or any time you have to demonstrate your skills in front of people who might judge you. For example, I had a severe camera phobia since I was a child, and only got over it a couple years ago!
4. Test Anxiety
5. Shy Bladder / Bowel Syndrome

In addition, other negative feelings typically go hand-in-hand with social anxiety, such as shame and loneliness, as well as depression and feelings of inferiority and even hopelessness. This workshop will focus on therapists looking for training. However, the general public are also included, since you will get the chance to practice and work on your own fears during the workshop. I (David) have noticed that feelings of social anxiety, especially performance anxiety, are almost universal among therapists, at least judging from those who attend our weekly TEAM-CBT training group at Stanford. So, come to heal yourself AND to learn how to heal your patients and loved ones. We will be covering not one, but four treatment models for social anxiety in the workshop: 1. The motivational model: Nearly all anxious individuals resist exposure, which is a crucial part of the treatment. Most therapists also resist exposure for a variety of reasons, thinking the patient is too fragile, or the technique will be too dangerous or upsetting for their patients. This is unfortunate, since this pretty much dooms the treatment to failure, especially if you are aiming for a “cure” rather than endless talk and hand-holding. 2. The Cognitive Model. Although usually not completely curative, the Daily Mood Log is essential to treatment, so you can find out exactly what patient are thinking and feeling at one specific moment when they were feeling anxious. I present the case of Jason, a young man feeling shy and anxious while standing in line to check his groceries one Saturday morning at the local grocery store. Many cognitive techniques are incredibly important and useful in the treatment of social anxiety, including Explain the Distortions, the three types of Downward Arrow (uncovering) Techniques, the Double Standard Technique, Externalization of Voices, the Feared Fantasy, and more. Although these methods are helpful and illuminating, they will rarely or never be quite enough for a complete cure. For that you will need: 3. The Exposure Model. In the workshop, we will be teaching:

• Smile and Hello Practice: In today’s podcast Jill discussed the purpose of this technique, how to introduce this technique to your patients, and how to implement it. This is an example of the many techniques we will teach on October 2. David provided a dramatic example of how this humble technique changed the life of a young man from India.
• Flirting Training
• Talk Show Host
• Rejection Practice
• Feared Fantasy: We role-played how I used this humor-based technique in my work with Jason
• Self-Disclosure
• Survey Technique
• Shame-Attacking Exercises.

We will also explain how to use several techniques crucial to the reduction of the patient’s resistance:

• Dangling the Carrot
• Gentle Ultimatum
• Sitting with Open Hands
• Fallback Position

However, many therapists have intense resistance to making patient accountable with these techniques that are absolutely central to TEAM-CBT, thinking they are cruel or crude or narcissistic, or some such thing. In the podcast, Jill illustrates a beautiful and gentle but firm way of introducing these techniques to patients, and emphasizes that they are actually ethical, therapeutic, and necessary for a good outcome. She also emphasizes, and I totally agree, the importance of going with the patient into the real world to do the Exposure Techniques. I have used extreme exposure techniques on hundreds of occasions when treating anxious colleagues on Sunday hikes for example, urging them to stop hikers we meet and disclose their own shyness, for example. The advantages of doing this type of thing in the real world include the ability to coach the “patient” with the best examples of how to use whatever technique you’re advocating, and to be there to support the patient during and after the experience. 4. The Hidden Emotion Model. This technique is often extremely helpful in the treatment of any form of anxiety, but is perhaps less often used in the treatment of social anxiety. I can think of one example when it was extremely helpful. This was a woman whose boss kept pressuring her to give presentations about their company locally and to groups in other locations as well. She opted out because of her social anxiety. But lurking behind her symptoms were her feelings of resentment about being asked to do too much. Once she brought these feelings to conscious awareness, she decided to discuss his expectations, her feelings, and her compensation with her boss. This worked well, and her public speaking anxiety magically disappeared. Although this pattern is not common, it is always worth consideration in your treatment plan, because family and friends often pressure people with social anxiety to confront their fears, and this typically does trigger feelings of resentment and resistance. We also discussed two Self-Defeating Beliefs that are nearly universal in individuals with social anxiety: the Spotlight and Brushfire Fallacies. In the podcast, I give examples of several techniques that were life-changing for patients. Jill emphasizes that one of the underlying treatment themes is how to “wake up” from your trance so you can learn not to take yourself so seriously and begin to have fun and enjoy yourself and others way more. Improvement is not the goal of treatment. The goal of treatment is word that many mental health professionals fear and resent: CURE! In the podcast, I describe the difference between a 100% cure for any form of anxiety, and a 200% cure. Do you know the difference? I give an example of my own fear of heights when I was in high school. Of course, that’s a phobia, and not a form of social anxiety, but you can also have a 200% cure for social anxiety, too! In a 100% cure your fears go to zero. You are no longer particularly anxious about talking to strangers, or public speaking, for example. In a 200% cure, you come to LOVE the very thing that terrified you in the past. Rhonda, Jill and I think this will be a powerful one day experience. We will focus on a common problem that is usually treatable fairly quickly, and often with fabulous and life-changing results. We hope you can join us! For registration information, please go to: CBTforSocialAnxiety.com Thanks! Jill, Rhonda, and David

Professor Mark Noble Shares his Thinking on the Uptick in Loneliness. Rhonda starts today’s podcast with a beautiful podcast endorsement from Eduardo, a fan who loved our recent podcast 303, featuring the dramatic, humble, and inspiring Jason Meno, a data scientist and software engineer who is making superb contributions to the Feeling Good App. Eduardo was especially interested in how to bring non-verbal, difficult-to-access negative thoughts to conscious awareness with the Stick Figure Technique. Today we interview Professor Mark Noble on the topic of loneliness. Mark is best known for his pioneering research on stem cells, but he has become an active and beloved member of the TEAM-CBT community since joining one of my Sunday hikes back in (date?) Mark is currently an active member and small group leader in Rhonda’s Wednesday TEAM training group. He generously wrote brilliant chapter for my most recent book, Feeling Great, and has also written the Brain Users Guide to TEAM CBT which you can download for free from https://www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com/resources Mark begins by dedicating today’s podcast to listeners who may be struggling with feelings of loneliness, and explains that loneliness appears to be on the increase, along with virtually all types of negative feelings, especially since the onset of the pandemic. He emphasizes that there are many roads to loneliness, including:

• Loss of a loved one, including friends, family, colleagues, or even a beloved pet
• Betrayal by someone you trusted
• Being trapped in an abusive relationship
• Being abandoned or neglected as a child
• Not being accepted by your family due to sexual orientation, religious preference, choice of life partner, or other factors
• Feelings of isolation due to COVID
• A dead marriage
• Infidelity
• And more.

Of course, Social anxiety is one of the most common causes of loneliness, and last week we interviewed two individual, Cai Chen, MD, and Chan Mary Soeur, RN, BSN, who have fallen in love. Both were lonely and struggled for years with social anxiety. Their work with TEAM-CBT has not only helped them greatly with their anxiety and loneliness, but has brought them intense romantic love! Not bad! People struggling with loneliness often think there’s something “wrong” with them. For example, you may feel unlovable, and fear that you’ll be alone forever. In addition, the belief that we “need” love to feel happy and fulfilled often leaves the lonely individual feeling like they’re doomed to endless unhappiness and a lack of fulfillment if they’re alone. Mark explains that the scientific definition of loneliness is the distress you feel when you think that your ”needs” for connection and relationships differ from what you have. In addition, he believes that loneliness is not abnormal, but is rather an indication of healthy brain function that has been important to the survival of the human race. For example, feelings of loneliness motivate us to connect with others. In fact, feelings of loneliness prompt babies to cry for their mothers when they feel hungry, hurt, or alone, and this process begins within seconds of being born. We raised the question of whether the cure for loneliness is internal or external. The internal solution involves changing the way you think, and your relationship with yourself. The external solution involves trying to find a loving partner or becoming more involved in activities with others. Although this is the solution most people pursue, it often falls short. David emphasizes the important of the internal solution, and discovering that you can feel completely happy and fulfilled when you’re alone. In fact, this is the first step in overcoming loneliness that he emphasizes in his book, Intimate Connections. Mark, Rhonda and David also discuss some of the paradoxes of TEAM-CBT, and how the “need” for love often drives others away, since you are asking people to give you something you can only give yourself. In contrast, when you feel happy within, and no longer “need” the love of others, love will often pursue you. We hope you enjoyed today’s podcast, and want to thank our buddy, Professor Noble, who has made so many in our TEAM-CBT community feel less lonely and more connected! Warmly, Mark, Rhonda, and David

Swimming in the River of Love Rhonda starts today’s podcast with a beautiful podcast endorsement from a fan named Vicky, from Australia, who was thrilled with the two recent live therapy podcasts with Nazli (podcasts 301 and 302). She wrote that she felt so lucky to hear someone with the exact same negative thoughts, and same feelings of depression and anxiety, that she’s had since she was 10 years old. I have often said that when therapists have the courage to do their personal work in public, you not only heal yourself and learn cool techniques first-hand and experientially, but you also heal many others who are touched and inspired by you. Thanks to all of our fans for your frequent loving comments and cool questions for future Ask David podcasts. We then give a little promotion for several upcoming group events, involving:

• May 2, 2022. Dr. Jill Levitt and I will be teaching an exciting, full-day workshop on “Smashing Social Anxiety: Shame-Attacking and Beyond.” It will be open to shrinks and the general public alike. The focus will be on learning to treat social anxiety, including your own! For registration and more information, please go to CBTforSocialAnxiety.com.
• September 13, 2022: Drs. Brandon Vance and Heather Clague start two new Feeling Great Book Clubs. For registration and more information, please go to www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com/book-club.
• September 14, 2022. Drs. Heather Clague and Brandon Vance will start their weekly “Deep Practice” group for training in the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. This type of practice is absolutely needed if you want to use these fantastic techniques to greatly boost your clinical effectiveness or enhance your relationships with the people you care about. For registration and more information, please go to www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com/5-Secrets.
• Date (to be announced). Zeina Halim soon begins the first-ever book club for When Panic Attacks. This terrific group could be helpful if you’ve ever struggled with phobias, social anxiety, chronic worrying, panic attacks, OCD, PTSD, and more. For registration and more information, please go to https://feelinggood.com/2022/08/08/anxiety-book-club/
• Date (to be announced). Zeina Halim will collaborate with our Feeling Good App development team in an experiment to test a month’s use of the Feeling Good app with or without a weekly practice group to supplement your work with the app. This exciting project is currently in the planning stage, but if you think you might be interested, please contact Zeina at Zeina Halim so she can contact you once we’re ready to start.

As an aside, the app will be free since we’re still involved in beta tests, but the weekly practice groups will involve an additional charge. Today we feature a love story involving Dr. Cai Chen, a young psychiatrist who did his residency training in Texas and now has moved to California to be with his love, Chan Mary Soeur, RN, BSN. Both have been members of my TEAM-CBT training group at Stanford. Cai practices at the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California, and Chan Mary who is pursuing a master’s degree as a Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner. Cai explains that he’d felt socially anxious and lonely for used, and used the tools in my book, Intimate Connections, when he got tired of dating sites. One crucial thing he learned is that you have to stop “chasing” if you want to find love. Then he met Chan Mary in one of the breakout groups in our weekly training group. Chan Mary said, “I also used to struggle with social anxiety. Even now, on this podcast I have thoughts that I won’t be as impressive as Cai. Cai is much better at expressing himself and being vulnerable in front of others. “I’ve been on a personal journey to get over my intense social anxiety. I’ve always held back in groups, and have never been the first one to reach out. “After listening to the Feeling Good Podcast’s episode on how to overcome social anxiety, I decided to challenge my fears and reach out to Cai. I contacted him and told him I really admired the courage he was showing in his transparency about his feelings, and in his courage to challenge his fears with the many Interpersonal Exposure Techniques we were learning about in our training. “I also decided to try another technique, Flirting Training. I told him that I thought everything he was doing was inspirational, and that I felt close to him.” Rhonda asked about the importance of taking risks if you struggle with social anxiety. Chan Mary explained it like this: “I was extremely anxious about reaching out to someone I didn’t know. For me, a simple thank you email and introducing myself was anxiety provoking because I had never done that before. I was also worried about asking too many questions because I didn’t want to come off as intrusive or even bothersome.” Chan Mary continues: “After conquering my initial fears of reaching out, I went even further, I invited him to join me for a week in Hawaii as our first date in 2021 for my vacation. I usually went on a medical mission to Cambodia, but couldn’t because of the pandemic. So I did the boldest thing ever—I met him in person in Hawaii!” Cai describes the fears he had: “I was scared. I thought, ;what if we get too close and our relationship falls apart.’ In fact, after accepting the invite, I called and told her that I’d changed my mind. She got angry, and I realized I had mixed feelings, so I turned to David’s Decision-Making Tool. (You can get it for free at the free chapter link on the bottom of the home page of David’s website.) “This tool helped me see why I was stuck, so I called Chan Marie back and asked for her forgiveness. I’d been hiding my feelings, so I told her I really liked her and had been afraid of ruining a great relationship.” Chan Mary said: “I was scared, too. But I told myself to trust myself, and that it felt safe to trust him, too.” The rest, as they say, is history. The date was terrific, and after some initial hesitation, Cai decided to move from Texas to California to be with “the love of my life!” Was it all roses from then on? All relationships, I’m pretty sure, have difficulties, and Cai and Chan Mary explained that they both have trouble expressing negative feelings. Cai explained it like this: “I always try to be nice, so I push my negative feelings down, and automatically sweep them under the rug. Chan Mary helps me with this. She pushes me to tell her what I’m upset about. And although it’s frightening at first, once we express our negative feelings they kid of fizzle out. Chan Mary has become an expert in David’s five Secrets of Effective Communication, and that has helped tremendously.” Chan Mary explained her difficulties with negative feelings like this: “The Hidden Emotion Technique has been helpful for me when I start to feel anxious or upset. I have to reflect and ask myself, ‘What’s the deeper issue here?’ Often, I don’t even know what I’m upset about!” Chan Mary added: “Thank you to David and Rhonda and everyone who made the Feeling Good Podcast possible. I’m just like many of your listeners, and this podcast has been life-changing. The techniques, you shared on the podcast have transformed my life! If I did not take the steps to conquer my social anxiety, Cai and I probably would not be here today.“ Cai and Chan Mary are delightful, and their obvious love is an inspiration in this time of increasing violence in the world and such intense political divide and hatred here at home. I asked where their relationship is heading and Chan Mary hinted that Rhonda and David might be getting invitations to a wedding one day soon! Cai and Chan Mary are two of my favorite people in the whole world. It’s a privilege and a blessing to know them and share a little of their lives. This is Rhonda…. "I love Cai and Chan Mary, too. I was in the Tuesday Stanford TEAM Training group for years with Chan Mary, and feel really close to her for lots of shared experiences. I am lucky enough to see Cai every Wednesday in our International TEAM Therapy Training Group, and I always look forward to reading the wise comments he writes on the TEAM certified listserve. Next week, we’ll look at the other side of the coin, as Professor Mark Noble leads a discussion on the recent rise in loneliness, which is often associated with social anxiety. Warmly, Cai, Chan Mary, Rhonda, and David  

TEAM-CBT Celebrates Diversity Today's featured image is Sean Williams, co-founder of the BAD Group Rhonda starts today’s podcast with a terrific endorsement from Steve, from England. He really liked Feeling Great, and said he benefited from the personal work with Dr. Mark Taslimi that we published as the first live therapy on the Feeling Good Podcasts (see podcasts 29-25 and 141.) Steve wrote that the live work, and the teaching points that Dr. Jill Levitt and I made during the podcasts to explain our strategies, is the best learning by far. Rhonda and I strongly agree, and I feel fortunate to have been able to publish many additional live TEAM-CBT sessions since that time. It is my hope that some day these live therapy podcasts will be used in teaching graduate psychology classes so that future practitioners can pick up where we left off and benefit from the rapid treatment techniques we’ve developed. Today we interview Amber Warner, LCSW, Sean Williams, LCSW and Chelsea Dorcich, MFT. Amber is a Level 3 certified TEAM therapist, living and working in Lake County, where she provides mental health care in a rural community. She has a private practice that includes a virtual practice for anyone in the State of California. Amber has been a member of our Tuesday TEAM-CBT group for the past year. Chelsea is also a Level 3 Certified TEAM therapist with a private practice for anyone in the State of California. Both Chelsea and Amber work at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California. Sean is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and also Level 3 TEAM-CBT therapist and co-founder of the TEAM CBT Clinicians of BAD, for Black African Descendants, along with Amber and Chelsea. He is a long-time and beloved member of the Tuesday training group at Stanford. He currently resides in Colorado and works for the Ohio State University where he works with active duty and retired soldiers regarding their PTSD suicidal ideation and trauma. He treats patients and also supports the Ohio State University’s research. He also has a part-time private practice for people who live in Indiana. Amber got our podcast going by saying: “My introduction to TEAM-CBT was in 2017, while at a Sunday workshop about 1 1/2 years ago. I’d been struggling with grief after accidently finding out my employer had hired others at a higher salary, so I started a Daily Mood Log and did a downward arrow (this is an uncovering technique) using one of my negative thought. I discovered that my Self-Defeating Belief (SDB) was not included in David’s list of 23 common SDBs. “I felt like all the weight of the world was on my shoulders because my employer had hired white people with less experience at higher salaries. I asked myself what I was going to do. “Do I care to stand up for myself? It felt like a heavy dilemma. I decided to face my fear and talk it over with my employer. It took some time, but things eventually turned out in my favor.” Way to go, Amber! Amber mentioned that Philip Lolonis, LCSW, a member of our TEAM-CBT community, urged us to create and teach an introductory TEAM-CBT course for African-American clinicians in 2021. Amber reached out to Sean and Chelsea and asked if they'd be interested in creating a “Clinicians of Color” group on Facebook. And that got the ball rolling. Rhonda asked, “What kinds of challenges have you faced?” Sean said that one barrier was the whole process of getting licensed. It requires a lot of time and money, nearly always meaning large loans and years of training. One goal of their group is to assist interested people through from initial training through the licensing clinicians, as well as introduce TEAM therapy to the larger therapeutic community. There are very few Black mental health professionals within the TEAM community. Amber explained that one of their goals is to provide support and encouragement to young Black men and women who might want to enter the counseling profession by attending medical school, or a doctoral or graduate school in counseling or psychology, or obtaining a certified coaching diploma. Amber also stated that TEAM-CBT has made a powerful impact on her, Chelsea and Sean, so they formed an affinity group, TEAM CBT Clinicians of B.A.D. Their primary goal is to support and encourage clinicians of color to learn and practice TEAM-CBT and explore culturally responsive methods to enhance the therapeutic alliance and improve treatment outcomes. Sean explained that he was introduced to TEAM and David’s work around the year 2000. He was looking at books in the self-help section of a Barnes and Nobles bookstore, but most of them were too expensive. He said, “Most of them were too expensive, but then I saw Feeling Good lying on a table, and it was only $8.95, so I purchased it and read about the list of cognitive distortions that David had created. That book changed my world view and changed me as a clinician. I realized that I really wanted to disseminate this information to clinicians of color.” Sean explains why he resonated with Feeling Good: “Many of the cognitive theoretical principles were extremely empowering to me. In “Feeling Good” there was a diagram of a man where it demonstrated how human beings process their experiences through thoughts, beliefs and assumptions. The whole idea of my thoughts impacting my emotions and behaviors was mind blowing to me and still is. It made me recollect on all my past struggles such as relationship break ups, job losses, public speaking anxiety, and so forth, and my reactions towards those situations unbeknownst to me at the time were primarily based on my thoughts about those events. I believe that it’s important that all people have access to these powerful therapeutic interventions regardless of race, ethnicity or culture. The reason why it’s important to disseminate these powerful tools to people of color is because people of color are reporting high rates of psychological distress but are less likely to get treated for it. “According to webmd.com ‘…African Americans are more likely to report feelings of sadness, hopelessness, and worthlessness than are adult whites. Still, in 2018, 18.6% of white Americans received mental health services, compared to less than 9% of African Americans.’ “I think TEAM-CBT can even help alleviate suffering related to racial stress. Although racism is a non-distorted reality the concepts in “Feeling Good” and the whole TEAM framework can orient a person to adopt the healthiest possible perspective when moving through those realities.” Chelsea said she learned about TEAM-CBT when she moved to the Bay Area in 2017. She says, "I also found that TEAM was a roadmap and a blessing. I could really connect. This is an amazing framework for everybody!” We also discussed one pitfall that some clinicians fall into. The idea that our thoughts, and not events, create all of our feelings can be liberating. But it can also be used to invalidate genuine, healthy anger. Racial bias and cruelty are real. "They are NOT cognitive distortions," she says. "Racial bias is very real. But TEAM-CBT can free us from the inner prison of depression and anxiety and self-doubt that results from distorted perceptions. Of course, sometimes perceptions are totally valid, and sometimes it’s time to fight and stand up for what’s right." David added that "We had to do a lot of fighting and protesting in the 1970s, when the Viet Nam war was waging, and the forces of darkness were powerful and destructive. Now, it seems, we have many more battles to fight, and we are lucky to have crusaders like Chelsea, Amber, and Sean. "Thank you for what you are doing!" Thank you all for listening today. Chelsea, Amber, Sean, Rhonda, and David Following the show, Sean kindly emailed me with some information addressing some of my questions about black people and the mental health system in the United States. He wrote: Although I was super anxious, I really enjoyed doing the podcast with you two. I used the “Dare to be Average” principles in Feeling Good to help me relax and it worked! Here’s a few additional notes about black people and our mental health system. I hope it helps! Insights into Diversity By Sean Williams, LCSW Why is it important to disseminate TEAM-CBT to people of color? Data from the American Psychiatric Association (APA) shows that only 2 percent of the estimated 41,000 psychiatrists in the U.S. are Black, and just 4 percent of psychologists are Black. On college campuses, close to 61 percent of counseling center staff are White, and 13 percent are Black, according to a 2020 Association for University and College Counseling Center Directors survey. he shortage of psychiatrists and counselors of color has severe implications for all Black individuals needing treatment. A 2019 survey by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) found nearly 5 million, or 16 percent, of Black Americans reported having a mental illness. However, only one in three Black adults who needs mental health care receives it. Because of the scarcity of mental health professionals of color, it can be difficult for Black Americans to find a practitioner with whom they feel comfortable enough to share any race-related trauma. One 2016 study in the Journal of Black Psychology found that African American therapists and their patients often had relationships marked by a “distinct sense of solidarity … as evidenced by having a better understanding of the context of Black clients’ lives. For more information, see https://www.insightintodiversity.com/addressing-the-lack-of-black-mental-health-professionals/