Echoes Underground – Details, episodes & analysis

A riposte to our earlier episode on how the UFO phenomenon is best understood as the faeries of old viewed through a modern lens. Aliens are not faeries, they are portents.

Carl Jung wrote a book about UFOs that functions well as an application of his broader theoretical work. When we observe a phenomenon, he argues, we apply the myths and narratives from our collective unconscious, so what narratives are we applying when we see a light in the sky?

UFOs are a mass rumour, and they’re an end of days rumour. We’ve seen these before - portents in the heavens, signs in the sky, one epoch ends and a new era is born. The star above Bethlehem, Halley’s Comet before the Battle of Hastings. Can it be a coincidence that UFOs in their moderm form begin to appear just after WWII, often around military sites at the beginning of the cold war? This is a new epoch, a new metaphysical era, one with nuclear weapons that could destroy the whole planet.

We also talk about tulpas.

Baby naming ceremonies, except in the nude and with gifts of cuttlefish! Wandering shamans preaching the mystical power of numbers! A living oral tradition that goes back to the last Ice Age!

Behold, the Ancient Greeks! In the face of some scepticism, it is argued that they were stranger and more interesting by far than we now imagine.

Also featuring a whistle stop tour of the Mycenaean Age, the Bronze Age Collapse, Homer, the Persian invasions and the birth of classical antiquity and all that came with it - philosophy, history, drama, democracy, athletics, and everything else that makes us think the Greeks were more relatable than they actually were.

Welcome to our failed attempt at a CURRENT AFFAIRS EPISODE.

The aim was a discussion of unfolding events in the Middle East, now too long ago to be relevant (things move quickly). The actual result was twenty minutes of reminiscing about life among the Houthis in Yemen, followed by a MANIFESTO on why the UK should not have an army or air force and instead focus all its excess resources on a reinvigorated navy that will rule the seas with GREAT SEVERITY. To the extent that one suspects that the entire concept of a topical episode was a trojan horse to introduce more Royal Navy propaganda into our lives.

“You can make the French ambassador feel really small, and nobody can put a price on that.”

Are aliens just American faeries? One of our hosts read Jacques Vallee’s Passport to Magonia: from Folklore to Flying Saucers and took it literally. UFOs exist, and they are the same phenomenon as faeries and elves but reinterpreted by a twentieth century audience.

This view is met with some scepticism. “They’re all just part of the collective unconscious.” Regular listeners will become familiar with this pattern.

We also talk about Zimbabwean goblins, the interdimensional hypothesis, and how it would feel to be a demon.

We look at alcohol’s ritual, psychological, and cultural function. Starting with Dionysus and the ancient Greeks, we compare alcohol with psychedelics and other drug and explore what’s going on beneath the surface at after-work drinks through this lens.

Can you really trust someone you have never seen with their inhibitions lowered? Is transgression required for bonding? We attempt to reach some deep conclusions over some good whisky.

What’s gone wrong with the Church of England? We read a Spectator article by Marcus Walker about the process of becoming a bishop, which has become highly bureaucratic and secular - you are put on a management fast track and then hilariously have to apply for a Bishop job when it comes up.

And this is what the Church of England has become - the way it is run is basically nothing to do with Christianity. An imperialistic and expanding bureaucracy infected with secular notions of management seems to sit badly with… faith. There is a major philosophical conflict between this bureaucracy and the people who actually go to church, and that’s before you get into the Church’s politics.

There’s an additional tension in the Church of England between those who want to focus on the individual’s direct relationship with God and build it into their everyday life, and those who want to set aside an hour of their week in a beautiful space to refresh their souls in a curated manner and send them back out into the world to do their best.

Perhaps this latter conflict is built into what religion is - is religion a revolutionary force, or a conservative one? Is it unstable or stable, informal or formal? Should our spiritual energy be untamed, or channeled? Within the Church of England, this conflict is instantiated by its two most vigorous branches - Holy Trinity Brompton-led evangelicalism and beautiful, formal Anglo-Catholicism. Basically, should we focus on the Holy Spirit or on God the Father? Well, the Trinity provides an answer: God the Son, Jesus Christ, the force that resolves this conflict and transcends the two opposites. He’s both Dionysus and Apollo, female and male, subversion and maintenance, life and death. This is Christianity’s secret sauce.

So in fact we need both wings of the church - having just one will lead to its own species of error. What we don’t need is the bureaucracy, and in the conflict between Christ and the scribes/pharisees/Romans we can even see Him as an anti-bureaucratic force.

We can take this lesson out into the secular world. Politics and corporate life have become bureaucratised, and while this does in its own way solve the messy conflict between revolution and conservatism, it does so in a way that destroys the benefits of both.

We also wrestle with the nature of the soul, how blacksmithing works, and awkward pauses.

Why are so many rocks in the Arabian desert covered in ancient graffiti? And why is so much of this graffiti lists of ancestors? We coincidentally both read the same paper by Michael C.A. MacDonald, a complete legend, and it sparked an interesting chain of thought.

An oral society is not less sophisticated than a literate one. You lose a lot of value when you switch to literacy. In particular, you lose flexibility - in oral societies, poems for example change constantly with each retelling. New bits are added, the fat is cut, the themes are updated for the audience being addressed. The Iliad shows the power of what this process can achieve.

As a desert nomad, hospitality and cooperation between strangers is crucial. In a series of one shot prisoners’ dilemmas in a hostile and remote environment, how do you make this happen? You need to link your identity to a wider body, a clan. When you establish this link, your clan becomes accountable for your actions, and you for theirs. Furthermore, individuals far from home can establish how their two clans relate to each other by looking back up the chain and using this to establish a basis for cooperation.

Then you add the flexibility of an oral society, which enables cooperative fabrication - aha, that Diogenes in my family tree must be the same Diogenes that’s in yours. A link is established, the record updated. We can see genealogies shifting over time as the relationships between clans shifted, the record updated as a result of thousands of interactions and negotiations.

We propose that this is a proto distributed ledger, an ancestor of today’s blockchains. There is not a single source of truth, but instead thousands of nodes all holding part of the overall database. The power is in the overall consensus, the agreement between all the players in the system. In fact if you can get enough nodes to agree to change the record, they will outvote everyone else and the change will become the truth.

While a centralised database has enormous benefits to productivity, we lose flexibility, the ability to change and forget and collaboratively create an updated reality. This ability to be inconsistent, to develop and change, is part of our human advantage, and a permanent central record of everything we’ve done means we’ve lost something.

Onto the third Discworld book, and we can see Terry Pratchett starting to hunt bigger game. This book is about magic and sex, as in biological sex, and really goes in on exploring a theme in a way that none of his later books do. It does this by looking at male magic vs female magic. Neither is seen as superior, but they are different.

What is female magic? “Magic out of the ground, not out of the sky.” Nursing and psychology. It’s therapeutic in nature, it puts the world back together, it keeps things on track and keeps things moving. It’s concerned with the mundane, with everyone’s journey through life. Healing, supporting, reconstituting, sympathetic - it’s not always clear that there’s any magic going on at all, but it is.

And male magic? More like maths and physics, the sort that creates nuclear weapons. Transgression. Crossing boundaries. Ideas. Power. Prestige. Legibly impressive and grand.

As Granny Weatherwax puts it: “books and stars and jommetry.”

The two come into conflict, and out of the conflict comes synthesis. The witches learn that brute force magic is useful sometimes. The wizards learn that it isn’t always the best option.

“The best book I have ever read for exploring the difference between the sexes” - Echoes Underground Podcast, December 2024

So our co-host has cast aside his smartphone, and has bought a £25 Nokia ripoff. No maps, no Whatsapp, no social media, no internet. It’s terrible. It’s transgressive. It’s the future.

In this episode, he defends his life choices. This isn’t about the hazards of social media, he claims - this is about the addictiveness of the physical device itself. Being bored is actually great. Daydreaming is great, your mind wandering is great, and this is not something that can happen if you compulsively reach for your phone when there’s nothing much going on. The phone anesthetises you, mutes your thoughts, it’s nice, hours can pass and it’s fine but nothing has changed, nothing has moved forward, and you realise later that you’ve lost two hours of your life.

Imagine being a child and not daydreaming. Not being bored and creating your own fun. Not struggling to create something that reflects your subjective experience. Not having time to reflect on your experiences and integrate them into your personality. Not using language to describe experiences to your friends and what they meant to you.

Imagine being an adult.

Controversial opinion of the day. Winston Churchill famously said that democracy is the worst way of running a state apart from everything else we’ve tried. One of our hosts rejects this, and says that actually we know of and have tried far better ways of steering the ship of state.

We talk of the original, some say ideal, democracy - Athens. Did Athens do better over the long term than its non-democratic neighbors? Probably, but the timescale is short. Did democracy lead to better decision making in the detail? No. Democrats killed Socrates. And then the Sicilian expedition, mentioned in Thucidides, shows the assembly of a radical democracy being persuaded to make a terrible geostrategic error by a demagogue whipping them into a frenzy.

What are we looking for when we’re choosing a system of government? Perhaps 1) high average quality of ruler, 2) stable transitions of power, 3) legitimacy, and 4) a method of selecting leaders that is consistent with the stories the nation tells itself.

And the latter is most important. While we can argue about how to steer and trim the ship of state, deciding where to sail it is most important, and here vibes and aesthetics start to matter more. Sacral kingship has undeniably better vibes and aesthetics than democracy. It reflects a desire for struggle, greatness, agency, the overcoming of obstacles, and this contrasts with the passivity, complaicency, stasis, security, and safety evoked by democracy.

ALL WE WANT, IS TO SERVE A GREAT KING, WITH MUCH HONOUR