Divergent States – Details, episodes & analysis

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Divergent States

Science

Society & Culture

Frequency: 1 episode/16d. Total Eps: 38

Divergent States cuts through psychedelic hype with grounded, curious conversations about what these substances actually do.

Hosted by 3L1T3, founder of r/Psychonaut, the world’s largest psychedelic harm-reduction community, and co-hosted by Bryan, a USMC veteran and advocate for psychedelic healing, the show brings together lived experience, science, and culture without losing its sense of humor.

This isn’t a spiritual podcast.
This isn’t a marketing platform.

No mysticism. No sales pitch. Just real conversations, harm reduction, and honest questions.

We explore how psychedelics shape mental health, creativity, and society, from underground use and peer-support communities to clinical trials, therapy rooms, and shifting public attitudes. Some episodes get serious. Some get weird. All of them are grounded in respect for the people actually taking these substances and living with the outcomes.

Guests include Rick Doblin, Reggie Watts, Leonard Pickard, Anne Wagner, Hamilton Morris, and Rick Strassman.

Divergent States is built on the same principles that made r/Psychonaut work at scale: curiosity without gullibility, openness without losing your footing, and safety without killing the joy.

If you’re looking for guru worship, this isn’t your show.

If you’re looking for thoughtful, funny, and grounded conversations about psychedelics and the lives they touch, welcome to Divergent States.

New episodes every two weeks.

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https://zendoproject.org/sit/?ref=DivergentStates
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https://beondibogaine.com/
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Betty Aldworth: MAPS, MDMA, and the Battle Over Psychedelic Medicine

Season 1 · Episode 23

Wednesday, November 5, 2025 • Duration 01:07:57

In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 sits down with Betty Aldworth, the new co-president of MAPS, as she steps into shared leadership with Ismail Ali following Rick Doblin’s four-decade run.

Betty brings decades of experience in drug policy reform, from Colorado’s 2012 cannabis legalization campaign to leading Students for Sensible Drug Policy, and now helps guide MAPS through one of the movement’s most pivotal moments: the FDA’s rejection of Lycos Therapeutics’ MDMA-assisted therapy application.

We unpack the tension between science and advocacy, urgency and rigor, and explore what real access means for people living with PTSD. Betty offers a candid, emotionally grounded look at the FDA’s critique, the role of stigma, and how MAPS plans to keep pushing forward through education, policy, and global research initiatives.

Later, the conversation turns to the larger movement: political support from both sides of the aisle, state-level reform models, and MAPS’ upcoming 40th anniversary in 2026.

Key Points

Betty’s path from SSDP to co-president of MAPS
The FDA’s rejection of MDMA-assisted therapy: what it really means
How “positive adverse events” became a sticking point in the FDA review
Durability of treatment effects and the debate over long-term data
Balancing activism, science, and education under MAPS’ new leadership model
The growing divide between regulatory caution and patient urgency
Grassroots and state-level psychedelic reform gaining ground
The stigma that still shadows MDMA despite decades of data
Harm-reduction advice for those seeking underground healing
What’s ahead for MAPS’ 40th anniversary and new research directions

⏱ Chapter Markers

00:00 – Intro — Bryan’s stage play, today’s guest: Betty Aldworth
02:00 – MAPS’ new leadership and legacy after Rick Doblin
05:00 – Betty on stepping into the role and the three MAPS pillars
08:00 – From activism to leadership — lessons from SSDP
11:45 – Balancing research, advocacy, and education
14:00 – FDA rejection letter — what really happened
16:00 – “Positive adverse events” and the question of abuse potential
22:30 – Durability of treatment and COVID-era data gaps
26:30 – Prior MDMA experience and bias — myth or factor?
29:20 – Politics, science, and the credibility dilemma
32:30 – RFK Jr., AOC, and politicization of psychedelics
35:00 – Echoes of the 1980s scheduling fight
36:20 – What comes next — Phase III, audits, and resilience
38:30 – MAPS’ evolving research priorities & global work
41:00 – Normalization, decriminalization, and stigma
43:45 – Science vs activism — carrying both forward
48:00 – State-level reform and slow federal process
50:30 – Cannabis rescheduling and broader reform
52:00 – A message to people living with PTSD
55:00 – MAPS’ 40th anniversary — what’s ahead
57:00 – Closing reflections — stay weird, keep exploring

Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the music!

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Unlock The Mind Atlas
Hear The Mind Atlas now on Spotify original score by mystery composer , narrated by Campo
Zendo Project
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike, and our Thumbprint Tier member, Angie on Patreon!

https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

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David Bronner on Corporate Psychedelics, Mysticism, and the All-One Future

Season 1 · Episode 22

Wednesday, October 22, 2025 • Duration 01:17:17

Dr. Bronner’s Cosmic Engagement Officer David Bronner joins Divergent States for a candid, nuts-and-bolts conversation about building an “All One” company culture, pushing for psychedelic policy reform, and rewiring global supply chains to be fair, transparent, and regenerative. We trace the lineage from Rainbow Gatherings to Burning Man, from hemp activism to MAPS, and from commodity brokers to farmer-first vertical integration. Co-host therapist Valerie Beltran helps press on the tradeoffs: regulated access versus decriminalization, mission versus financing, growth versus grassroots.

Key points

The “All One God Faith” DNA, salary caps (5× lowest vested wage), and why profit is a means, not the mission.
Why Dr. Bronner’s backed hemp early, fought DEA roadblocks, and supported MAPS, Oregon’s Measure 110, DC decrim, and church-based access models.
Regulated access vs. decriminalization: complementary pathways; cost, community, and safety implications.
Purpose-aligned financing: why many mission brands drift, and how the emerging Purpose Pledge aims to solve it.
Sourcing as activism: Ghana palm grown in multi-strata agroforestry; olive oil partnerships across Palestinian and Israeli producers; farmer income and soil health as first principles.
Regenerative Organic Certification: weaving soil health, animal welfare, and fair labor into one consumer standard.
Cultural lineage: Zendo/sanctuary work, AA’s Bill Wilson and LSD, Sacred Plant Alliance, and lessons from the Brotherhood of Eternal Love.
Pitfalls and PR landmines: navigating blame and lawsuits in a fast-shifting policy landscape.
Longevity over hype: why real soap beats detergents, and the quirky “punk rock soap opera” moment that proved it.
Practical integration: moving from unitive states to everyday choices—diet, sourcing, and local service.

If this conversation resonated, follow the show on Spotify/Apple, leave a short review, and consider supporting the work on Patreon to keep community-driven media independent.

Special thanks to Sandbgz for the music! Follow him on Spotify!

00:00 – Intro & Setup02:00 – From Burning Man to the Mic04:35 – Origins & Rainbow Gathering Roots06:25 – The All One God Faith Legacy10:25 – Sourcing as Activism15:20 – Mission Financing & the Purpose Pledge17:35 – Building Roots & Staying Grounded22:30 – Why Risk Psychedelic Advocacy28:30 – Early Activism & the Hemp Wars33:00 – Meeting Rick Doblin at Burning Man37:00 – Decrim, Churches & Community Access39:15 – Pitfalls & Lawsuits40:30 – Choosing Battles & Lessons from Oregon 11042:45 – Integration & Regenerative Organic Agriculture46:45 – From Vision to Action51:55 – Balancing Perfection & Pragmatism55:45 – Longevity over Hype1:01:00 – Heaven on Earth & Deep Time1:03:45 – Brotherhood of Eternal Love & Rainbow Bridge1:08:30 – Closing Reflections1:12:00 – Outro & Patreon Call to Action

Hear The Mind Atlas now on Spotify original score by mystery composer , narrated by CampoOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Kyrsten Sinema: Inside the Psychedelic Fast-Track for Veterans

Season 1 · Episode 13

Friday, June 13, 2025 • Duration 34:00

A former U.S. Senator says the federal government is preparing to fast-track psychedelic medicines, especially for veterans with TBI, PTSD, addiction, and treatment-resistant depression.

In this conversation, Kyrsten Sinema explains why the current administration is unusually aligned behind plant-based therapies, how Ibogaine and MDMA could move through the FDA faster than expected, and why small researchers, not Big Pharma, may end up shaping the field.

We dig into:

Ibogaine’s impact on Special Forces veterans
Why bipartisan support is real and why it’s strange
What “FDA fast-track” actually means
The fight to secure Medicaid/Medicare + VA coverage
How cost + access could shift once CMS approves care
The threat of large companies burying breakthroughs
Why trauma + TBI may define the next decade of medicine

Sinema isn’t claiming everything is solved.

She argues there’s a rare window — and it could close.

Whether you’re hopeful or skeptical, you’ll walk away with a clearer view of the policy machinery behind psychedelic medicine.

⏱️ Chapters:

00:00 – Intro: Politics, Power, and Psychedelics
01:41 – Why Interview Sinema? Pushback & Intentions
02:21 – First Sponsor Tease & PS25 Plans
03:56 – Sinema Joins the Interview
04:18 – How Ibogaine Changed Her Perspective
06:49 – Senate Colleagues' Reactions
07:44 – Policy Progress & Bipartisan Allies
09:43 – Pharma Capture & Psychedelic Industry Risks
12:02 – Can Psychedelics Avoid Biotech Monopoly?
13:40 – Cost, Access, and Equity Concerns
14:44 – Ensuring Access for the Most Vulnerable
15:56 – State vs. Federal Models
17:00 – Federal Role in Decriminalization & Reform
17:20 – Regrets or Missed Legislative Opportunities?
18:43 – Sinema’s Continued Involvement 20:06 – Political Alignment vs. Policy Goals 20:17 – Restoring Trust in Institutions 21:55 – Five-Year Outlook for Psychedelic Medicine 23:10 – Final Reflections & Outro 23:41 – Bonus: Sinema on Psychedelic Science 2025 Panels 25:17 – Collaboration with VETS Foundation 25:53 – Closing Thanks & Conference Plans 28:49 – Outro Recap & Reflections 31:19 – Sponsors, Shulgin Legacy, and Fireside Project 32:10 – Next Episode Tease: Dr. Anne Wagner

Kevin Cranford – Behind the Curtain at MAPS: Culture, Communication & Controversy

Season 1 · Episode 12

Friday, May 23, 2025 • Duration 51:52

This week, we sit down with Kevin Cranford, Communications Officer at MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies), to talk about the upcoming Psychedelic Science 2025 conference — what’s new, what’s different, and why it’s shaping up to be more than just another gathering. From navigating hype vs. science to MAPS’ comms strategy, Kevin shares how the org is threading the needle between community storytelling, rigorous research, and avoiding another "Wellness Industrial Complex" meltdown.

We dig into questions around affordability, integration, cross-aisle politics, harm reduction, and even Oprah's looming presence. It's a candid, funny, and thoughtful look at where the movement is headed — and how not to lose the soul of psychedelics in the process.

Also in this episode: Rainbow Gatherings, EDM afterparties, psychedelic pickup lines, and how to make ketamine uncool.

Key Takeaways

MAPS is prioritizing integration over size for PS25, aiming for intentional connections rather than sheer numbers.
The future of psychedelics lies in dialogue, not dogma — MAPS welcomes skeptics, clinicians, artists, and policy-makers under the same roof.
Storytelling beats data alone — personal narratives help bring complex psychedelic science to wider audiences.
MAPS consciously avoids hype by deferring to the science and resisting exaggerated claims.
Access and affordability are still big questions — MAPS is actively seeking insurance and donation pathways to reduce sticker shock for marginalized communities.
There’s tension in the movement between spiritual influencers and clinical research — and MAPS isn’t shying away from those debates.
The goal is to make psychedelics boring. That’s how you mainstream a revolution.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Introduction and Conference Overview
03:14 Psychedelic Science 2025: A Cultural Gathering
06:05 Target Audience and Conference Experience
09:01 Balancing Science and Experience
11:56 Community Dynamics and Open Dialogue
14:56 Storytelling in Psychedelic Advocacy18:04 Addressing Criticism and Ensuring Access20:55 Future of Psychedelic Research and Regulation27:25 Curating Online Communities for Quality Engagement29:03 Learning from Past Mistakes in Psychedelic Movements30:40 Bridging Political Divides in Psychedelic Advocacy31:52 The Importance of Personal Stories in Psychedelic Healing33:44 Exploring the Deep Space Experience at PS2535:07 Innovative Ideas for Future Psychedelic Conferences36:53 The Impact of Celebrity Endorsements on Psychedelic Culture39:52 Making Psychedelics Boring for Future Generations40:29 Reflections on the Psychedelic Community and Its Growth

Tom Feegel: Can Psychedelics Heal the Opioid Crisis?

Season 1 · Episode 11

Wednesday, May 7, 2025 • Duration 59:49

In this powerful new episode of Divergent States, your hosts 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Tom Feegel—CEO and Co-Founder of Beond, a pioneering Ibogaine clinic based in Mexico, to discuss the unfiltered realities of healing, addiction recovery, and the evolving landscape of psychedelic-assisted therapy.

Tom brings two decades of sobriety, a past life in global brand marketing, and deep experience navigating both the light and shadow of the psychedelic resurgence. This isn’t a conversation full of buzzwords: it’s a grounded, honest exploration of what actually helps people come back from the brink.

Together, we unpack what Ibogaine is, why it has a reputation for treating opioid addiction where other modalities fall short, and how the Beond model emphasizes safety, preparation, and integration over hype. Tom also shares stories from the frontlines: clients who arrive on death’s doorstep and walk away with not just sobriety, but a new story for themselves.

This episode dives into some hard but necessary questions:

Why do traditional Western rehab models have such a low success rate?
What does it mean to center human dignity in a treatment model?
How can clinics scale without becoming exploitative?
What role do communities like Reddit and independent media play in this movement?

Whether you're a harm reduction advocate, a skeptic, or just curious about where psychedelics are headed, this conversation challenges assumptions and offers a rare window into the operational and ethical complexities of real-world healing work.

Big thanks to our guest Tom Feegel for showing up with honesty, experience, and insight—and for the vital work he’s doing at Beond Ibogaine Clinic.
https://beondibogaine.com/
Appreciation to all our listeners, supporters, and community members who keep Divergent States growing with every episode.

Shoutout to our co-host Bryan for always bringing grounded, thoughtful perspective - and to you, for being part of this movement.

🎶 Music CreditOriginal music by Dyl👽Alien - alien frequencies for earthbound minds.Check out more of Dyl👽Alien’s work wherever interdimensional audio is transmitted.

Seven Principles of the Psychonaut w/ Valerie Beltran

Season 1 · Episode 10

Thursday, April 24, 2025 • Duration 49:51

What does it mean to be a responsible psychonaut?

In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down again with Valerie Beltran, licensed therapist, harm reduction expert, and educator with the Zendo Project, to unpack 7 core principles for navigating psychedelic states with intention, safety, and compassion.

We break down everything from testing your stash to dismantling your ego, and talk about how these powerful tools can help us grow: not just as individuals, but as a culture.

🔑 Topics we cover include:

Harm reduction, substance testing, and staying safe
What makes a psychonaut different from a recreational user
Ego dissolution vs. ego inflation in the psychedelic space
The beauty of Zendo-style peer support
Psychedelic diversity, inclusion, and ethical use
The soul quadrant: psychedelics as a call to community action
Integration as an everyday spiritual practice
Why set, setting, and intention still matter more than hype

Valerie brings grounded wisdom and therapeutic insight, while 3L1T3 and Bryan keep it real with stories, skepticism, and a few laughs about LSD philosophy, festival weirdness, and Rainbow drum circles.

🧠 This is a great starting point for new explorers and a reminder to seasoned trippers that we all need to check our egos at the door sometimes.

🎧 Music by Flintwick
🪬 Support the show + get the bonus after-show with Valerie at patreon.com/divergentstates
🎤 Email: divergentstates@gmail.com

#Psychedelics #Psychonaut #Integration #ZendoProject #DivergentStates #PsychedelicTherapy #SetAndSetting #HarmReduction #MAPS #EgoDeath

00:00:00 - Introduction
00:00:18 - Valerie Beltran’s Background
00:01:37 - Updates from the Zendo Project
00:02:24 - Psychedelic Legalization News
00:03:35 - Psychedelic Science 25 Conference00:05:19 - The Seven Psychonaut Principles00:05:50 - Principle 1: Harm Reduction & Personal Safety00:08:42 - Preparation (Set & Setting)00:14:21 - Principle 2: Do No Harm to Others00:16:07 - Principle 3: Community & Connection00:21:36 - Principle 4: Diversity & Inclusion00:25:59 - Principle 5: Ego Awareness00:31:18 - Principle 6: Integration & Reflection00:38:18 - Princliple 7: Advocacy & Social Justice00:44:47 - Closing Remarks

Alli Schaper: Microdosing, Mushrooms, and Policy Reform

Season 1 · Episode 9

Thursday, April 10, 2025 • Duration 01:05:06

In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Alli Schaper, CEO of Supermush and co-founder of the Microdosing Collective, to explore the evolving world of functional and psychedelic mushrooms. Alli shares her journey into microdosing advocacy, the challenges of navigating the gray market for psychedelics, and the urgent push for policy reform to ensure safe, legal access.

We dive into the science behind microdosing, its profound benefits for mental health, creativity, and even athletic performance, and discuss why current regulations often overlook this powerful tool. Alli opens up about how psychedelics helped her family process grief and why storytelling is key to destigmatizing these substances. The conversation also highlights the risks of unregulated products (like gas station "shrooms"), the importance of community-driven advocacy, and the potential for cultural momentum to shape smarter policies.

With psychedelic mushrooms gaining mainstream attention, from wellness brands to underground markets, we ask: Are we "legalizing the whole bottle of wine before the sip"? Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on the future of microdosing, the role of functional fungi in daily health, and how everyday individuals can help drive this movement forward.

Music by DylAlien.

Takeaways

Mushrooms can have a profound impact on physical and mental health.
Microdosing can help maintain mental health and prevent burnout.
Psychedelics can be valuable tools for processing grief.
There is a cultural gap in understanding and accepting death.
Microdosing is often misunderstood and misrepresented in popular culture.
Functional mushrooms offer various health benefits beyond nutrition.
Community and intentional gatherings are essential for wellness.
Advocacy for microdosing is crucial for policy changes.
The definition of a microdose is often misinterpreted.
The Microdosing Collective aims to represent and support microdosers. There is a need for a legal safe pathway for microdosing.
Education and research are crucial for microdosing advocacy.

JR Sawyers – The First Film About Set, Setting, and Psychedelic Therapy? A Trip Elsewhere

Season 1 · Episode 8

Monday, March 24, 2025 • Duration 01:07:38

In this deeply personal and eye-opening episode, we sit down with filmmaker JR Sawyers, the mind behind the indie psychedelic drama A Trip Elsewhere. What begins as a conversation about a film turns into a powerful exploration of transformation, healing, and consciousness.

JR opens up about the psychedelic retreat that changed his life, the emotional weight of isolation during the pandemic, and how he turned those experiences into cinematic storytelling. We dive into the emotional architecture of A Trip Elsewhere, the science and stigma of psychedelics, and how visuals can speak to the soul when words fall short.

From ego death to sacred geometry, from heartbreak to healing—this episode is as introspective and surreal as the film itself. Whether you’re curious about psychedelics, passionate about indie film, or just looking for a conversation with real heart, this one is not to be missed.

🎬 A Trip Elsewhere is streaming now on Amazon Prime, Tubi, Apple TV, and the Roku Channel.

Takeaways

J.R. Sawyers is an independent filmmaker inspired by introspective films.
His film explores the therapeutic effects of psychedelics.
Sawyers experienced a transformative retreat that influenced his filmmaking.
The film's visuals aim to capture the essence of psychedelic experiences.
Character development reflects different emotional struggles and transformations.
The future of psychedelics in therapy looks promising with increasing acceptance.
Sawyers drew inspiration from various books and films to shape his narrative. Actors appreciated the character journeys in the film.
Filmmaking was a way to relive the retreat experience.
Setting and guidance are crucial for psychedelic experiences.
Sawyers is working on a horror film about a possessed psychiatrist.
The film addresses the silent pandemic of mental health issues.
Psychedelics can help build empathy in a disconnected world.
Letting go is essential during psychedelic experiences.
He has never had a bad trip, highlighting the need for guidance.

The Zendo Project w/Valerie Beltran & Chelsea Rose – What Happens When a Trip Goes Sideways

Season 1 · Episode 7

Thursday, March 13, 2025 • Duration 01:07:34

In this powerful episode of Divergent States, we’re joined by Valerie Beltran and Chelsea Rose-Pires of the Zendo Project- an organization redefining harm reduction and compassionate care at festivals, events, and beyond.

We explore how the Zendo Project began as a MAPS initiative and evolved into its own nonprofit dedicated to supporting people through difficult psychedelic experiences and emotional crises, not with judgment or clinical detachment, but with radical empathy and peer support.

From creating safe spaces at Burning Man to launching training programs for crisis responders, Valerie and Chelsea offer insight into how the Zendo Project is transforming both event culture and the broader conversation around mental health, community care, and psychedelics.

Whether you’ve had a challenging trip, want to support others through non-ordinary states, or are just curious about what real-world harm reduction looks like, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.

🧘‍♀️ Learn how just being present can change lives.
🧠 Discover why “sitting, not guiding” is a revolutionary principle.
💬 And find out how you can get involved, support their mission, or even join them in the field.

✨ “You don’t have to be altered to walk into the Zendo. You just have to be human.” – Valerie Beltran

🔗 Learn more or get involved: zendoproject.org
💚 Donate. Volunteer. Sit with someone. It matters.

Forgot to mention on the episode, but big thanks to Future Boogz for letting us feature their track on this episode! Ach for the art, Brad for the help, and all of the Patreon Supporters!

All content in Ask Me Anything sessions are for educational purposes only. Zendo Project does not provide any legal, medical or mental health advice. Consult with a lawyer, doctor, or mental health therapist before making any significant decisions for your own situation. Any references to third party websites or service providers are made without any warranties, express or implied. All participants should conduct their own due diligence on any third party websites or professionals before engaging in any conduct. Zendo Project does not encourage or facilitate any illegal conduct.

DylAlien on Psychedelic Music Culture: Trance Rituals, Cosmic Giggles & Prankster Wisdom

Season 1 · Episode 6

Sunday, February 23, 2025 • Duration 01:02:30

In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Dylalien: psychedelic DJ, producer, schoolteacher, and longtime organizer of Goa Gil’s legendary all-night, open-air ritual dance parties. You’ve heard his music on this podcast, but in this conversation, we go deep on what it means to create and participate in psychedelic music culture at its most raw, weird, and transformative.

Together, we explore:

The life and legacy of Goa Gil, trance music’s spiritual godfather
The influence of Hindu mysticism and Shiva archetypes in psychedelic culture
The cosmic giggle: what happens when you dance all night and see the joke behind the universe
DJing while tripping, playing to the sunrise, and accessing “wizard vision”
How sound, sync, and group dance create stacked synchronicities
Why trance is a tool, music is a medicine, and exhaustion is a drug
The evolution of the underground, from vinyl and anonymity to phones and algorithms
Being a high school teacher with a secret psychedelic life (“Did you just say that out loud?”)
Pranksters, dosed swimming pools, and the chaos magic of the California scene
How a late-in-life awakening led him to start releasing music, after decades in the shadows

We also talk about how psychedelic states can permanently shift your view of reality—how even sobriety feels different once you've danced with the universe. Dylalien reflects on how psychedelics pushed him to go vegan, redefined his ideas about spirituality, and reminded him again and again: “I don’t know anything. And that’s OK.”

This episode blends stories, insight, laughter, and nostalgia with the kind of wisdom that only comes from living decades in a counterculture groove. Whether you’re a musician, a tripper, a Deadhead, or just someone who’s felt the beat pull them into something bigger—you’ll feel at home here.

🎧 Music by Dylalien
🔗 Learn more about Goa Gil’s legacy and psychedelic trance culture
🧠 Support the show: patreon.com/divergentstates
🎤 Want to be on the podcast? Hit us up on Reddit, Instagram, or TikTok.

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Divergent States – Details, episodes & analysis

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