Divergent States cuts through psychedelic hype with grounded, curious conversations about what these substances actually do.
Hosted by 3L1T3, founder of r/Psychonaut, the world’s largest psychedelic harm-reduction community, and co-hosted by Bryan, a USMC veteran and advocate for psychedelic healing, the show brings together lived experience, science, and culture without losing its sense of humor.
This isn’t a spiritual podcast. This isn’t a marketing platform.
No mysticism. No sales pitch. Just real conversations, harm reduction, and honest questions.
We explore how psychedelics shape mental health, creativity, and society, from underground use and peer-support communities to clinical trials, therapy rooms, and shifting public attitudes. Some episodes get serious. Some get weird. All of them are grounded in respect for the people actually taking these substances and living with the outcomes.
Guests include Rick Doblin, Reggie Watts, Leonard Pickard, Anne Wagner, Hamilton Morris, and Rick Strassman.
Divergent States is built on the same principles that made r/Psychonaut work at scale: curiosity without gullibility, openness without losing your footing, and safety without killing the joy.
If you’re looking for guru worship, this isn’t your show.
If you’re looking for thoughtful, funny, and grounded conversations about psychedelics and the lives they touch, welcome to Divergent States.
New episodes every two weeks.
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The Missing Piece of Psychedelics: Global Psychedelic Society on Community
Season 2 · Episode 16
Wednesday, September 9, 2026 • Duration 01:06:57
What if one of the biggest things missing from the modern psychedelic conversation isn't another drug, therapy, or clinical protocol, but community?
In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 sits down with Mike Margolies of the Global Psychedelic Society, a worldwide network connecting hundreds of local psychedelic communities.
They explore what community can provide that a clinic can't, and why problems like isolation, addiction, depression, and trauma can't always be understood solely at the level of the individual. Mike lays out a vision of psychedelic communities where education, preparation, peer support, integration, and relationships with experienced peers and elders form part of a larger social ecosystem.
But community isn't automatically healthy.
The conversation turns to the harder questions: How do psychedelic communities prevent themselves from becoming echo chambers? What happens when facilitators or leaders abuse their power? How do you create accountability without immediately resorting to public shaming or cancellation? And how do community organizations remain financially sustainable without becoming sales funnels for therapists, facilitators, entrepreneurs, or spiritual teachers?
They also discuss the Global Psychedelic Society's decentralized model, the challenges facing local societies, ethical monetization, Zendo-style peer support, and what psychedelic communities could look like in a post-prohibition future.
In the extended Patreon edition: Mike sticks around for a looser conversation about recreational psychedelic use, tripping at concerts, why psychedelic culture sometimes takes itself way too seriously, the "high holy hippies," and what his ultimate no-responsibility psychedelic experience would look like.
Divergent States is independent, long-form conversation about psychedelics without the hype, gurus, or easy answers.
Key Points
1. Psychedelic societies create spaces for education, integration, peer support, and community outside of clinical or ceremonial settings.
2. The Global Psychedelic Society connects hundreds of independent local communities rather than operating them as centralized chapters.
3. Many problems treated as individual mental health issues may also reflect larger problems of isolation, culture, and social systems.
4. Healthy psychedelic communities can provide support before, during, and after psychedelic experiences through trusted peers, elders, preparation, and integration.
5. Community isn't inherently positive. Abuse of power, ego, bad information, and group reinforcement can turn communities into unhealthy echo chambers.
6. Accountability requires learning how to have difficult conversations, including knowing when to call someone in, when to call them out, and when stronger action is necessary.
7. Local autonomy allows psychedelic societies to adapt to different cultures, laws, and community needs while still learning from a larger global network.
8. Sustainable psychedelic communities need ethical ways to fund their work without treating money or monetization as inherently corrupt.
9. Psychedelic organizations have to navigate conflicts of interest and prevent community spaces from becoming sales funnels for facilitators, therapists, spiritual teachers, or businesses.
10. The future of psychedelic community could include sustainable local organizations, permanent community spaces, better-trained leaders, and stronger connections between psychedelic societies around the world.
Music is Grotto by Flintwick
00:00 Community Without the Echo Chamber 07:08 Meet Mike Margolies 09:13 The Origins of the Global Psychedelic Society 14:19 What Community Can Provide That Clinics Can’t 18:04 Are We Medicalizing Social Problems? 20:48 What Does a Healthy Psychedelic Community Look Like? 23:06 Power, Ego, and Unhealthy Communities 25:26 Accountability Without Cancel Culture 32:04 How the Global Psychedelic Society Works 38:15 Sustainability, Volunteers, and Monetization 41:28 Balancing Local Autonomy and Accountability 44:31 When Community Becomes a Sales Funnel 46:56 Zendo Project and Psychedelic Peer Support 50:45 The Future of the Global Psychedelic Society 54:41 Finding or Starting a Local Psychedelic Society 56:09 What Psychedelic Culture Needs to Change 57:40 Extended Edition Preview 01:01:29 Bryan and Lee: What Makes a Healthy Community? 01:06:23 Closing Thoughts
Portals vs. Pathways: The Real Work After Psychedelics | Jonathan Schecter
Season 2 · Episode 15
Tuesday, August 25, 2026 • Duration 01:00:46
There’s a big difference between having a psychedelic experience and actually doing something with it.
Jonathan Schecter, host of Vital Point: Pathways to Integration and founder of Pathways Integration, joins us to talk about what happens after the breakthrough. Drawing from his own experiences with psychedelics, meditation, Buddhism, breathwork, somatic practices, and integration coaching, Jonathan explores the gap between having an insight and actually changing your life.
We talk about why the biggest psychedelic experience is not necessarily the most useful one, the role of trauma and nervous system regulation, when psychedelic insights should be questioned rather than followed, and Jonathan’s distinction between “portals” and “pathways”: the dramatic experiences that can suddenly move us somewhere new versus the slower, less exciting work of learning how to live there.
Because eventually the trip ends. You go home. Your relationships, habits, job, and problems are still waiting for you. The question is whether anything actually changed.
In the extended Patreon conversation, we go further into the uncomfortable side of psychedelic integration: whether integration itself is becoming a product, whether some people would be better served by stepping away from psychedelic culture entirely, the medicalization of psychedelics, and why the obsession with heroic doses may sometimes get in the way of the work.
Insight is not integration. A profound realization during a psychedelic experience does not automatically translate into lasting behavioral change.
The trip is only part of the process. Preparation and what happens afterward can matter as much as the altered-state experience itself.
Jonathan’s own path began recreationally. Psychedelic experiences eventually forced him to confront his marriage, relationship with his father, drinking, and the direction of his life.
Meditation became a long-term pathway. Jonathan discusses more than two decades of Buddhist practice, including time spent living and practicing in Tibet.
Integration should not mean someone interpreting your experience for you. Jonathan sees the facilitator’s role as supporting people while allowing them to determine what their experiences mean.
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
The Counterculture of Aging: Abbie Rosner on Psychedelics and Elderhood
Season 2 · Episode 14
Tuesday, August 11, 2026 • Duration 01:06:03
What can psychedelics offer when the question is no longer “Who am I becoming?” but “What do I do with the life I’ve already lived?”
Abbie Rosner, author of Psychedelics and the Counterculture of Aging, joins 3L1T3 and Bryan for a grounded conversation about psychedelic use among older adults and the possibility of reimagining later life as a period of healing, meaning, creativity, intimacy, and renewed purpose.
Drawing on conversations with 36 older psychonauts, Abbie discusses how maturity and life experience can change a psychedelic journey. They explore psilocybin and aging, mortality and the fear of death, unresolved trauma and shame, grief, spirituality, cognitive liberty, community, and what it means to consciously become an elder.
The conversation also examines the practical realities often missing from discussions about psychedelics and seniors: medication interactions, heart health, medical screening, choosing a trustworthy facilitator, underground ceremonies, state-regulated psilocybin programs, commercialization, informed consent, and the limits of current research.
Abbie also shares her vision for Elder Vision Circles, communities where older adults could prepare, journey, integrate, and support one another through the challenges of aging.
This is not a conversation about finding a fountain of youth. It is about confronting mortality without surrendering curiosity, connection, or the right to explore your own mind.
This episode is for educational purposes and is not medical advice. Psychedelics carry psychological, physical, legal, and social risks, particularly for older adults managing medications or existing health conditions.
Psychedelic use among older adults is not simply nostalgia or an attempt to relive the 1960s.
Maturity, therapy, meditation, loss, and accumulated life experience can fundamentally change a person’s relationship with altered states.
Psychedelics may help older adults examine mortality before they are actively approaching the end of life.
Later-life journeys can create opportunities to process grief, childhood trauma, shame, regret, and relationships that have remained unresolved for decades.
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Naked Out Loud: Machan Taylor on Memory, Music, and MDMA Therapy
Season 2 · Episode 13
Tuesday, July 21, 2026 • Duration 58:50
Machan Taylor has spent a lifetime using her voice. As a singer, songwriter, performer, and author of Naked Out Loud, she has worked with artists including Pink Floyd, Pat Benatar, George Benson, Hiroshima, Foreigner, and more. But this conversation is not about the glamorous parts of a music career.
It is about memory, trauma, identity, and the parts of ourselves we leave behind.
Machan joins 3L1T3 and Bryan for a grounded conversation about her memoir, her childhood in Japan, the grief of leaving her grandmother and first home behind, and the MDMA-assisted therapy session that helped her reconnect with the little girl she had carried inside for decades.
Together, they discuss what psychedelic therapy can reveal, why integration matters, how performance can become both protection and belonging, and what it means to stop being defined by an old wound without erasing the story that shaped you.
No hype. No miracle claims. Just a deeply human conversation about music, memory, healing, and the courage to be naked out loud.
Music by Sndbagz - Days Gone
Key Points:
Machan Taylor discusses why she opened Naked Out Loud with MDMA-assisted therapy instead of her work with major artists.
She describes the childhood trauma of leaving Japan, her grandmother, and her first sense of home behind.
The conversation explores the whale image from her MDMA session as a guide back into memory and grief.
Machan explains how MDMA therapy helped her emotionally understand pain she had only intellectually known before.
The episode looks at trauma as an “operating system” that can quietly shape identity, belonging, and self-worth.
Machan talks about the difference between changing the facts of a story and changing one’s relationship to those facts.
The discussion emphasizes integration as the essential work after psychedelic-assisted therapy.
Machan reflects on performance, applause, imposter syndrome, and the way music became both healing and protection.
The Patreon section goes deeper into what actually happens inside a guided MDMA therapy session.
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
The Art of Psychedelic Peer Support | Zendo Project
Season 2 · Episode 12
Tuesday, July 7, 2026 • Duration 01:03:45
What actually happens when a psychedelic experience becomes overwhelming in the middle of a concert, festival, or crowded event?
3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Case Newsom, emergency medicine physician and medical director of the Zendo Project, to explore the practical art of psychedelic peer support. Case explains why helping someone through a difficult trip often means resisting the urge to take control, offering simple choices, and creating enough safety for the experience to unfold.
They also discuss Zendo’s integration with medical and security teams at Red Rocks, why emergency rooms can intensify psychedelic distress, and how compassionate on-site care can prevent unnecessary restraint, sedation, and hospitalization. Case shares how one major Denver event went from 54 hospital transports to 17 after psychedelic peer support was embedded alongside medical services.
The conversation expands beyond festivals into the larger need for harm reduction, community support, and psychedelic literacy as these substances become increasingly accessible.
Disclosure: 3L1T3 and Bryan are Zendo Project Ambassadors. They are volunteers, not employees, but may receive financial benefit when listeners use the code DIVERGENTS10 for eligible Zendo Project training programs.
What psychedelic peer support looks like in practice
The difference between supporting an experience and trying to control it
Why presence can be more helpful than offering solutions
How Zendo combines peer support with medical triage
Bringing psychedelic harm reduction into Red Rocks
Working alongside security, EMTs, and venue staff
How on-site support can reduce unnecessary hospital transports
Why emergency rooms can intensify psychedelic distress
The importance of consent and non-directive language
Supporting someone whose friends have abandoned or overwhelmed them
The difference between a difficult trip and a traumatic experience
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Who Should Be Allowed to Guide Psychedelic Experiences? | Dori Lewis
Season 2 · Episode 11
Tuesday, June 23, 2026 • Duration 55:35
Dori Lewis is a psychotherapist, clinical supervisor, Natural Medicine Facilitator, and Co-Founder of Elemental Psychedelics. She also owns Reflective Healing Center, one of Colorado's licensed psychedelic healing centers.
As psychedelic therapy moves from the underground into legal clinics and state-regulated systems, a difficult question emerges: what actually makes someone qualified to guide another person through a psychedelic experience?
In this conversation, we explore the gap between licensing and competency, facilitator ethics, psychedelic training, integration, commercialization, spiritual authority, and the challenges of scaling psychedelic care without losing the human element that makes it effective.
We also discuss Colorado's natural medicine program, the role of personal psychedelic experience in facilitator training, the risks of "guru culture," and why Dori believes psychedelics are powerful tools—but not magic bullets.
In the Patreon integration segment, we go deeper into awe, mystery, institutionalization, underground versus clinical models, and what the psychedelic movement may still be unwilling to admit about itself.
Music is Barefoot - Flintwick
Key Points
Colorado's legal psychedelic facilitation model
What a facilitator license does—and doesn't—guarantee
The difference between enthusiasm and readiness
Why integration matters more than most people realize
The "guru complex" in psychedelic culture
Facilitator ethics and unconscious projection
Licensing vs competency
Commercialization and accessibility challenges
Why psychedelic therapy remains expensive
Insurance, legalization, and barriers to care
Mysticism, awe, and psychedelic experiences
The future of psychedelic care in the United States
Why psychedelics are not a magic bullet
Chapters
00:00:00 Who Should Be Allowed to Facilitate Psychedelic Experiences? 00:04:05 Meet Dori Lewis00:04:12 From Psychonaut to Psychotherapist00:06:01 Set, Setting, and the Ethics of Facilitation00:09:01 Enthusiasm vs. Readiness to Facilitate00:10:26 Building a Relationship with Psilocybin00:14:39 Integration and the Psychedelic Guru Complex00:17:14 What a Colorado Facilitator License Actually Guarantees00:20:33 Common Mistakes New Facilitators Make00:23:40 Projection, Accountability, and Ethical Repair00:27:29 Institutional Blind Spots in Psychedelic Therapy00:29:47 Quiet Ethical Failures vs. Obvious Misconduct00:32:28 Romanticizing Boundaries and Difficult Experiences00:35:26 Preventing the Accidental Guru00:36:50 Can Psychedelic Care Scale Ethically?00:43:28 Accessibility and Reasons for Hope00:45:06 What Should Survive from Underground Psychedelic Culture?00:46:37 Public Episode Wrap-Up and Patreon Preview00:50:39 Final Takeaways with 3L1T3 and Bryan00:52:55 Closing and Resources
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
The NFL Broke His Brain… Then Ibogaine Changed Everything | Robert Gallery
Season 2 · Episode 10
Monday, June 8, 2026 • Duration 54:01
Former NFL player and College Football Hall of Famer Robert Gallery joins Divergent States for one of the most raw conversations we’ve had on the show.
After retiring from professional football, Robert began experiencing intense rage episodes, suicidal thoughts, emotional instability, brain fog, and severe PTSD-like symptoms linked to repeated head trauma and brain injury from years in the NFL.
What followed wasn’t a clean or simple recovery story.
We talk about identity loss after professional sports, invisible brain injuries, emotional dysregulation, alcoholism, suicide ideation, veterans and athletes sharing similar trauma patterns, and why psychedelic-assisted therapy — particularly Ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT — became a turning point in his life.
This episode isn’t really about “getting high.” It’s about what happens when the system fails, your brain changes, and you’re left trying to figure out who you are afterward.
We also discuss:
The psychological cost of repeated head trauma
Rage responses and emotional volatility
PTSD similarities between veterans and athletes
The dangers of untreated brain injury
Why Robert nearly gave up hope
Ibogaine therapy and psychedelic-assisted recovery
Integration, routine, meditation, and rebuilding identity
Athletes For Care and helping other athletes find treatment
Patreon members get access to the extended Integration Session, where we discuss the risks of Ibogaine, safety concerns, treatment settings, and broader conversations around psychedelic therapy and harm reduction.
If the public episode is the trip, the Patreon edition is the integration.
00:00 Intro – When Brain Injury Changes Who You Are01:05 Why Football Trauma Is More Than Physical03:41 Robert Gallery Joins the Show04:05 Life After Football & Losing Identity05:43 Rage, Anxiety & Early Warning Signs07:51 Realizing Something Was Seriously Wrong09:25 Athletes, Veterans & PTSD Parallels10:57 Repetitive Head Trauma & The Cost of Football12:10 The Brain Scan That Changed Everything13:43 Suicide Ideation, Shame & Hopelessness15:12 Suffering in Silence16:22 Asking for Help17:07 Why Vulnerability Saved His Life18:15 Discovering Ibogaine Through Veterans18:50 What Rage Actually Felt Like21:12 Was It Really Him—or Brain Injury?22:45 Trying Conventional Treatments First25:12 Running Out of Options25:39 Finding Hope in Ibogaine28:07 The Decision to Go to Mexico30:21 The Ibogaine Experience33:39 5-MeO-DMT & "Turning the Lights Back On"35:54 Coming Home Changed38:01 Why Healing Isn't One and Done39:28 Returning for a Second Treatment41:23 Growth vs Survival42:50 Building a New Life Through Routine43:57 Athletes For Care46:23 Public Episode Outro48:28 Integration Session Intro48:42 Misdiagnosis, Trauma & Identity50:05 Anger, Trauma & Nearly Losing Control50:40 Neuroplasticity & Recovery51:16 Support the Show
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
The Hidden Politics of Psychedelic Media | Dennis Walker
Season 2 · Episode 9
Tuesday, May 19, 2026 • Duration 01:02:46
Dennis Walker joins Divergent States to unpack how psychedelic stories actually become “news,” why sensationalism dominates drug coverage, and how media narratives shape public perception around psychedelics.
We discuss psychedelic exceptionalism, corporate psychedelics, satire as social critique, harm reduction, underground culture, MAPS, FDA approval, clinical gatekeeping, psychedelic tourism, and the growing divide between real-world psychedelic use and institutional messaging.
Dennis is a journalist, satirist, and creator of Mycopreneur, known for blending humor, gonzo journalism, and cultural criticism to explore the psychedelic ecosystem from angles most outlets avoid.
Topics:
Why bad drug stories spread faster
Psychedelic journalism and narrative control
Corporate psychedelics vs underground culture
Why satire works in psychedelic spaces
FDA approval and clinical gatekeeping
Psychedelic tourism and ethics
The “good drug / bad drug” double standard
MAPS, media narratives, and psychedelic exceptionalism
Check out Dennis' work at https://www.mycopreneur.com/
Patreon supporters get the extended Integration Session and early access to episodes: patreon.com/divergentstates
Music by Sandbgz
Chapters:
00:00 – Why Psychedelic Narratives Matter 04:38 – Dennis Walker on Satire, Psychedelics & Media 08:11 – When Psychedelics Became Politics & Money 10:56 – How Drug Narratives Shape Public Opinion 15:27 – Why Satire Works Better Than Lectures 18:07 – Why Negative Drug Stories Dominate Headlines 23:32 – Good Drugs vs Bad Drugs in Media Coverage 28:26 – The Push Toward Clinical-Only Psychedelic Use 34:02 – Who Controls Psychedelic Journalism? 37:19 – The Missing Voices in Psychedelic Media 42:13 – Field Reporting, Community & Psychedelic Culture 46:16 – Social Media, Framing & Manufactured Narratives 50:26 – Building a Healthier Psychedelic Culture 55:00 – Patreon Integration Session Transition 58:13 – Final Reflections & Why These Conversations Matter 01:00:40 – Outro
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Psychedelics Don’t Fix Your Life… Here’s What They Actually Do | Talia Eisenberg
Season 2 · Episode 8
Tuesday, May 5, 2026 • Duration 55:04
Psychedelics don’t fix your life.
They don’t make you a better person. They don’t replace responsibility. And they don’t solve the problems waiting for you when you come back.
In this episode, we sit down with Talia Eisenberg from Beond to talk about what actually happens after a powerful psychedelic experience—especially with ibogaine. What changes, what doesn’t, and why the hardest part is often what comes after.
We get into:
why insight isn’t the same as change
what people misunderstand about “healing”
the unglamorous reality of recovery and integration
why some people aren’t ready for these experiences
and what it really takes to make those changes stick
This isn’t a conversation about breakthroughs or peak experiences.
It’s about what holds up when the experience ends.
🎧 Music: Hyperspace — Sndbagz
🎙️ Divergent States is a podcast exploring psychedelics without the hype—focused on harm reduction, integration, and what actually works in the real world.
Chapters:
00:00 – Psychedelics Don’t Fix Your Life 01:17 – Harm Reduction Matters (Zendo Project) 03:08 – Meet Talia Eisenberg (Ibogaine & Recovery) 04:05 – What Psychedelics Don’t Fix 06:32 – Agency, Accountability, and Hard Truths 07:35 – Addiction, Ibogaine, and Starting Over 10:04 – Life After the Trip: Real Change 11:25 – Optimization vs Avoidance 13:26 – Psychedelics Don’t Replace Responsibility 14:39 – Spiritual Bypassing (Ketamine, MDMA, Psilocybin) 17:11 – Why Ibogaine Forces Honesty 20:07 – Escaping vs Doing the Work 20:59 – Do Psychedelics Delay Change? 22:33 – Who Struggles Most After Psychedelics 24:08 – The “Reset” Myth26:19 – What Actually Changes After Ibogaine30:05 – What Doesn’t Change31:41 – The Comedown: Emotional Whiplash34:00 – Healthy Discomfort vs Avoidance36:58 – Struggle Isn’t Failure38:48 – Power, Clinics, and Psychedelic Ethics44:19 – Red Flags: Gurus, Clinics, and Safety47:36 – You Don’t Need Ibogaine48:58 – What We Cut (Patreon Preview)52:20 – Final Thoughts + Support the Show
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Psilocybin Therapy Works… But Not Like You Think, with Compass Pathways
Season 2 · Episode 7
Tuesday, April 21, 2026 • Duration 54:18
If one or two psychedelic sessions can produce measurable improvements in treatment-resistant depression, why does modern psychiatry still rely on daily medication?
In this episode of Divergent States, we sit down with Dr. Steve Levine, psychiatrist and Chief Patient Officer at Compass Pathways, to break down their newly released Phase 3 clinical trial results for COMP360 psilocybin therapy.
But this isn’t a hype piece.
This is a critical look at what the data actually shows—and what people might be getting wrong.
We explore: – What Phase 3 trials really mean (and why they often fail) – Why a “3.8 point improvement” is more significant than it sounds – The difference between clinical psilocybin therapy and underground use – Why one or two sessions may work—but not for everyone – The role of neuroplasticity, subjective experience, and “set & setting” – Why scaling psychedelic therapy is harder than it looks – The tension between commercialization and psychedelic culture – What FDA approval would—and wouldn’t—change
Compass Pathways has now run over 1,000 participants across Phase 2 and Phase 3 trials, showing statistically significant results in treatment-resistant depression. But translating that into real-world treatment is a completely different challenge.
This conversation pulls back the curtain on what it actually takes to turn psychedelics into medicine—and where the limitations still are.
Because this show isn’t about psychedelics being amazing.
It’s about understanding what’s true… and what holds up under scrutiny.
🎧 Subscribe to Divergent States for grounded, skeptical conversations in psychedelic science, culture, and harm reduction.
💬 Join the community Discord via r/Psychonaut (link in subreddit)
🎶 Music: by [Drip]
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Trauma changed the way he approaches psychedelic work. His own experience with shock trauma led to a greater emphasis on somatic practices, nervous-system regulation, and caution around intense altered states.
Not every psychedelic insight should be acted upon. Sometimes the best response to a seemingly profound revelation is to wait and see whether it still makes sense months later.
Portals and pathways serve different purposes. Psychedelics can create dramatic leaps or “portals,” while practices such as meditation, breathwork, and everyday behavioral changes provide slower and more reliable pathways.
Integration is often repetition, not revelation. “Chop wood, carry water” becomes a central theme: lasting change often appears in ordinary relationships, habits, health, and daily decisions rather than another peak experience.
Psychedelic culture deserves skepticism too. The extended conversation challenges heroic-dose culture, the commercialization of integration, the assumption that everyone needs psychedelics, and the idea that healing can simply be purchased.
Music by Dyl👽Alien - Gaian Radio Transmissions
Chapters:
00:00 – Insight vs. Integration 02:35 – Introducing Jonathan Schechter 05:28 – From Recreation to Intentional Psychedelic Work 09:25 – Meditation, Buddhism, and a Life-Changing Loss 13:19 – When Insight Doesn’t Become Change 17:04 – Becoming an Integration Facilitator 19:23 – Stan Grof, Breathwork, and Altered States 23:09 – The Problem With Gurus and Psychedelic Authority 27:24 – Trauma and the Myth of the “Bad Trip” 28:53 – What Does Integration Actually Mean? 33:28 – Should We Challenge Psychedelic Insights? 35:11 – Slow Down Before Making Life Decisions 38:17 – Portals vs. Pathways 41:18 – Repetition vs. Revelation 44:42 – Coming Home to Yourself 46:41 – What Actually Creates Lasting Change? 49:07 – Jonathan’s Work and Pathways to Integration 49:57 – Extended Conversation Preview 54:06 – Bryan’s Take on the Interview 55:51 – Why the Work Afterward Matters 57:04 – Patreon, Zendo, and Closing
Several older adults Abbie interviewed described their later years as the happiest and most authentic period of their lives.
Conscious elderhood reframes aging as a stage of growth, creativity, activism, service, intimacy, and community rather than inevitable decline.
Older adults face specific risks involving prescription medications, cardiovascular health, medical conditions, mobility, and psychological vulnerability.
Trust, screening, preparation, and integration are essential when selecting a psychedelic facilitator or ceremonial setting.
The distinction between psychedelic therapy, wellness, spirituality, and ordinary human meaning is often much less clear than institutions suggest.
Abbie’s proposed Elder Vision Circles would combine education, community service, psychedelic preparation, group experience, and long-term integration.
The episode keeps a harm-reduction frame: psychedelic therapy can be powerful, but it is not casual, simple, or one-and-done.
Chapters
00:00 Cold Open: The Journey Back 01:42 Introducing Machon Taylor 05:28 From Pink Floyd to Personal Healing 07:19 Why Begin the Book with MDMA? 09:23 The Whale That Led Her Home 14:12 MDMA Therapy and Childhood Trauma 19:42 The Body Keeps the Score 22:09 Going Deeper Than Talk Therapy 27:06 The Meaning of the Whale 29:09 Speaking to the Child Left Behind 31:40 Your Story Without Being Defined by It 34:36 Trauma as an Operating System 40:31 Performing, Identity, and Belonging 43:13 Healing the Younger Self 46:25 Naked Out Loud and Human Vulnerability 49:02 It's Never Too Late to Heal 50:37 Where to Find Machon's Book 51:34 Patreon Preview & Zendo Project 54:39 Post-Interview Reflections
Building safer systems for underground psychedelic use
How this work changed Case’s own relationship with psychedelics
Music is Hourglass Hustlin' - Flintwick
00:00:00 A Difficult Trip at Red Rocks 00:01:45 What Psychedelic Peer Support Looks Like 00:03:20 Zendo Disclosure 00:05:19 Meet Case Newsom 00:06:55 From Emergency Medicine to Zendo 00:11:08 The Origins of the Zendo Project 00:13:25 Supporting Without Directing 00:16:28 Learning How to Be Present 00:17:11 Receiving Peer Support 00:19:07 Resisting the Urge to Fix 00:20:32 Choices Instead of Control 00:23:19 The Mushroom Tent Story 00:25:39 Bringing Zendo to Red Rocks 00:27:04 Building Peer Support Into First Aid 00:29:26 Security, Medical, and Psychological Safety 00:30:24 Reducing Ambulance Transports 00:33:13 Why the ER Can Make Trips Worse 00:36:01 Stigma, Authority, and Trust 00:39:06 Creating Connection in a Crisis 00:42:41 The Gaps in Psychedelic Harm Reduction 00:46:33 Underground Communities and Safety 00:48:46 The Future of Zendo 00:53:06 Why Venues Need Peer Support 00:54:28 How Presence Prevents Panic 00:58:01 Closing the Public Interview 01:00:08 Episode Outro
⚠️ This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice.
Chapters:
00:00 If Psychedelics Work, Why Daily Medication? 01:15 Why This Isn’t a “Psychedelics Are Amazing” Episode 04:00 From Daily Pills to 1–2 Treatments 06:45 Why Ketamine Wasn’t the Breakthrough 09:25 What Phase 3 Trials Actually Prove (And Don’t) 12:50 What Regulators Are Really Looking For 14:25 What a “3.8 Score Improvement” Actually Means 15:55 Psychedelic Hype vs Reality 18:30 What Actually Stood Out in the Data 21:40 Why Psychedelics Work Faster 24:55 Is the Experience Part of the Treatment? 25:45 Why Set and Setting Still Matter 30:10 Will This Ever Be At-Home? 33:00 Why Therapists Don’t “Do Therapy” Here 34:40 The Real Problem: Scaling Access 39:00 Commercialization vs Psychedelic Culture 43:00 What Are the Actual Risks? 45:10 What Success Looks Like in 10 Years 47:10 Why Access Matters More Than Approval 49:50 Why This Fails in the Real World 52:10 Outro + Patreon Integration Session
