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Explore every episode of the podcast Deviate

Dive into the complete episode list for Deviate. Each episode is cataloged with detailed descriptions, making it easy to find and explore specific topics. Keep track of all episodes from your favorite podcast and never miss a moment of insightful content.

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TitlePub. DateDuration
Before Sunrise (redo): Screenwriter Kim Krizan on what led up to the classic travel-romance movie 20 May 202500:57:33

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30).

Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center.

Notable Links:

Before Sunrise: Screenwriter Kim Krizan on what led up to the classic 1995 travel-romance movie 16 May 202500:57:21

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30).

Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center.

Notable Links:

Travel memoir lab: How to fast-track your travel book by working with a hybrid publisher 10 Dec 202401:01:36

“In El Salvador, I dropped $5 out of my pocket at the border, and some guy came running up to me. At the beginning of the trip I would have been surprised by that. But by that point I would have been surprised if it didn’t happen.” —Matt Savino

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how the first version of his travel book was way too long, and what he ended up editing out (6:00); the origins of Matt’s Central America road trip, why he ended up turning it into a book, and how he ended up taking Rolf’s Paris class (12:00); how Matt’s “Spreadsheet of Pain” helped him edit his book down to manageable size, and how historical research helped his narrative (17:00); how he wrote about a road trip that didn’t actually reach its objective, and how he tried to model his narrative on Bill Bryson’s writing (26:00); how Matt used a hybrid publisher to get his travel book into the world in two years (31:00); the challenges, idiosyncrasies, and creative joys that come with creating a hybrid published book (39:00); how AI bots determined that Matt had “plagiarized” what turned out to be his own book (54:00); and Matt’s advice for people interested in hybrid publishing (60:30).

Matt Savino (@ushuaia_or_bust) is the author of Land Without a Continent: A Road Trip through Mexico and Central America. He can be contacted via his website.

Notable Links:

Authors, books, and agents mentioned:

HoneyTrek: A case study in making a full-time living as travel influencers and content creators 26 Nov 202400:43:18

“When we got into this, we didn’t know how to make videos. That’s a skill we’ve had to learn, because the industry has changed so much, from photos to videos. We are still learning all the time.” —Ann Howard

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Mike, Ann and Kiki talk about they got started traveling as a couple, how they made it affordable, and how they made the transition into the world of content creation (2:15); how to navigate recording and sharing travel experiences that go wrong, including relationship dynamics (9:30); how to make travel “sustainable” in the personal and creative sense of the word (17:00); the advantages of having a “niche” as an influencer, and how sponsored travel works (24:30); and what makes travel influencers stand out from others, and the importance of learning new skills (34:00).

Mike & Anne Howard are on The World’s Longest Honeymoon, traveling for the last 13 years through 80 countries across all 7 continents. They have written and photographed a National Geographic book on couples adventure travel, Ultimate Journeys for Two, as well as the glamping guidebook, Comfortably Wild.

Notable Links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Live from Bali: How tourists, influencers, and nomads transform destinations (for good and for bad) 12 Nov 202400:38:59

“Influencers are forever reinforcing the same images. They’re spending no time in the actual place, other than the requisite time to take the photo. From the local community’s point of view, these kinds of tourists bring very little value.” –Stuart McDonald

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stuart talk about why Stuart chose to make his office in West Bali, and why South Bali has developed something of a bad reputation in terms of over-tourism (2:30); the mythos of Bali, how it became a “dreamscape” in the Western consciousness, and how it has changed in recent years (6:30); why certain areas in Bali become over-touristed, and how it has recently been affected by “influencers” (18:00); how black magic and ghosts are part of the belief systems of Balinese, yet few travelers ascertain this (24:00); and how much social-media travel content leaves out essential cultural context (31:00).

Stuart McDonald (@travelfishery) is the co-founder of Travelfish.org, a travel planning website covering Southeast Asia, which he launched in 2014. He has been traveling in that part of the world since 1993, and living there since 1997.

Notable Links:

This episode of Deviate is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you’ve ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can c...

Vagabonding audio companion: Obnoxious travelers (and how to avoid being one) 22 Oct 202400:45:40

“We’re having less enjoyable travel experiences, even as our photos show us having this amazing time, because we’re performing a version of travel for people who aren’t even there.”

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about the time-honored Americans pretending to be Canadian on the road, and why Americans at times have had a bad reputation abroad (2:30); strategies for avoiding becoming an “Ugly American” on the road (11:00); how a fixation with comfort can get in the way of life-enriching experiences on the road (18:30); how rituals like tipping, interacting with children, or choosing what to wear in public from culture to culture (22:00); how “voluntourism” and charity on the part of travelers is often not as selfless or effective as it pretends to be (30:00); how social media has a way of turning us into superficial, image-obsessed travelers (34:00); and how technology has transformed (and constrained) the way we all travel (39:00).

David Martinez is an Associate Professor of Spanish and the director of the Center for Study Abroad at George Fox University in Newberg, Oregon.

Notable Links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

What you discover when you walk down every single street in New York City (encore) 17 Sep 202401:30:57

“Traveling, for me, is all about destroying stereotypes and narratives about people and places.” – Matt Green

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt discuss Matt’s mission to walk every street in New York City (3:00); walking across the entire United States and breaking stereotypes (12:00); bucket lists as a catalyst for action (28:00); and Matt’s experiences walking in unfamiliar places and finding comfort in being a stranger (50:00).

Matt Green is the wanderer who was profiled within the documentary The World Before your Feet, directed by filmmaker Jeremy Workman and produced by Jesse Eisenberg. Matt has walked across the entire United States and is currently in the process of walking every street in New York City. For more about Matt and his current project, check out https://imjustwalkin.com/.

Notable Links:

This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you’ve ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey.

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

A history and future of digital and biological technology, with Jane Metcalfe 08 Aug 202400:59:27

“We need positive visions of how all this technology gets deployed, because what we visualize is what we build.” –Jane Metcalfe

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jane talk about the pioneering work she did with Wired during the dawn of the “digital revolution” (3:00); how and why Jane’s professional focus shifted away from digital issues and into food and health issues in the ’00s (15:00); how science is trying to bring in diverse new data points and communication models to improve holistic health worldwide (28:30); how the health of the world’s humans is not separate from the health of the world’s animals, plants, and microorganisms, and how a bio-economy seeks to harness rather than extract the resources of nature (41:00); how regional and cultural differences affect how we perceive health, nutrition, and technology, and the importance of ethics in making scientific decisions (51:00).

Jane Metcalfe (@janemetcalfe) is the co-founder of Wired Magazine, and the chair of the Human Immunome Project, a global non-profit working to decode the immune system in order to transform how we prevent, diagnose, and treat disease.

Notable Links:

Bicycling across the USA (with no money or food) looking for human connection 16 Jul 202400:50:01

“My parents passed away and it created this sense of recklessness in me, but in a positive way: I wanted to create a travel experience and push myself and learn about myself. Because you never know how long you’re gonna be around for.” –Daniel Troia

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Daniel talk about why Daniel chose to bicycle across America with no money or food, the privileges that set him apart from people who have to do it out of necessity, and how this kind of journey is a time-honored undertaking for people experiencing grief (2:00); the kinds of people Daniel met on the trip, how his vulnerability put him into contact with new and unfamiliar people and communities, and how visiting places in person increases empathy with the people who live here (12:30); what Daniel discovered while “dumpster diving,” and other surprises he found on the road (24:30); what it was like to self-document the trip DIY style with camera glasses, a GoPro, and a drone, and what experiences didn’t make it into the film (30:30); the lessons that Daniel brought home from the trip, where he plans to travel next, and his advice for people who want to create their own bike journey (44:00); and an “Easter Egg” about Daniel’s experiences in Kansas (49:00).

Daniel Troia (@the_travelin_dude) is the director of We Are All in This Together, which documents his cross-country USA bicycle journey with no food and no money, in search of human connection.

Notable Links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Wonder Year: The Art of Long-Term Family Travel and Worldschooling 11 Jun 202400:53:42

“The parent’s job as teacher on the road is to just create surface area between your kid and yourself and the world.”  –Julie Frieder

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Julie talk about what a “Wonder Year” is, how she got involved with family travel, and why traveling with children is possible and enriching for everyone involved (1:30); how to get started planning a family vagabonding journey, where to go, how long to go, how to save money, and why travel is good for your mental health (14:00); how to involve your kids in planning a travel journey, why being open to serendipity can wok better than micromanaging activities, what “worldschooling” is, and how to plan education activities on the road (27:00); how parents can learn alongside their kids on the road, and how to deal with challenges like homesickness and culture shock (39:30); the task of returning home after a long journey, and how travel makes us better parents (46:00).

Julie Frieder is the coauthor (along with Angela Heisten and Annika Paradise) of Wonder Year: A Guide to Long-Term Family Travel and Worldschooling.

Notable Links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

How Rolf Ruined the 1990s: A personal history of my grunge-bandwagon band 14 May 202401:19:36

“Look at any photo from a moment of supposed zeitgeist in American history, and it will be clear that not everyone in that moment represented the cutting-edge of culture.” –Rolf Potts

In this essay episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he enjoys listening to Rob Harvilla’s podcast 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s at double-speed, but that he’s disappointed Rob has never alluded to Rolf’s own 1990s grunge band, Swizzlefish (1:45); Rolf describes his move from Kansas to the Pacific Northwest in the year 1990, at a very specific moment in America’s cultural zeitgeist (10:30); the origins of Swizzlefish, and how its formation with Rolf’s friends Ryan and Steve was compromised by the fact that Rolf and Steve were in no way musical virtuosos (18:30); the circumstances of the first Swizzlefish live show, and how it caused an immediate controversy on Rolf’s small Christian college campus (30:00); what Portland’s indie-rock scene was like in early 1993, and what kinds of bands Rolf and his friends saw there (35:00); how the second Swizzlefish concert resulted in the band getting banned from playing on its own college campus (42:00); Swizzlefish’s spring 1993 performance at Portland’s X-Ray Cafe, and how the middle-class normalcy of its fans evoked something true about grunge music (49:00); Rolf’s eventual move to Seattle to work as a landscaper, his experiences at a 1993 Nirvana show there, and the curiously enduring legacy of Swizzlefish more than 30 years later (57:30); and Rolf talks to music journalist Rob Harvilla about Rolf’s brief appearance in the 1992 horror movie Dr. Giggles, their respective experiences with 1990s music, and whether or not Kurt Cobain would have liked them (1:06:25).

The 1993 Swizzlefish album Big Time Loser is available for streaming on Spotify.

Rob Harvilla (@harvilla) is the creator of 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s, a book and a podcast that explore the pop culture of the decade through music.

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Bands, musicians, and songs mentioned:

Walk and Talk: Notes from a peripatetic salon across northern Thailand 16 Apr 202401:09:30

“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.” —Kevin Kelly

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include:

Kevin Kelly (4:00-15:00)

Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Known Earlier.

Liz Danzico (15:00-27:45)

Liz Danzico is VP of Design at Microsoft, and the Founding Chair of the MFA Interaction Design Program at the School of Visual Arts.

Silvia Lindtner (27:45-46:00)

Silvia Lindtner is a writer, ethnographer, and Associate Professor at the University of Michigan. Her book Prototype Nation: China and the Contested Promise of Innovation was published by Princeton University Press in 2020.

Mars on Earth: The world's driest desert, and what travelers might find when they go there 06 May 202500:49:22

“If you're someone who's always dreamed of going to Mars but you don't have the time to become an astronaut, you can just visit the Atacama Desert.” –Mark Johanson

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Mark talk about how Mark became interested in the Atacama Desert, and his experience in other world deserts (1:45); what Mark sought when he traveled through the region (16:00); what it's like to experience the area, and why it's known as "Mars on Earth" (26:00); what travelers can do there, and what it's like for Mark to live in Chile (36:30).

Mark Johanson (@markonthemap) is an American journalist and travel writer based in Santiago, Chile. His first book is Mars on Earth: Wanderings in the World’s Driest Desert.

Notable Links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Essential tips and strategies for telling travel stories, with Andrew McCarthy 12 Mar 202400:58:23
“We 'massage' the truth to make it fit the narrative we need it to fit in our lives.”  –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about how Andrew got started in travel writing, and how writing himself on the page helped him see himself in the world (2:30); when he does and doesn't conflate certain details in the interest of a good story, and how he balances the "micro" and the "macro" elements of a travel story (12:30); how he decides who to write about, among the many people he meets on the road, which details do and don't drive the narrative forward, and what it's like to meet travelers who recognize him from his acting days (23:30); how Andrew structures his travel stories, and what travel storytelling in common with his work as a TV director (31:00); how he balances his writing and non-writing work in life, and how he mixes personal details with place details in his travel writing (38:00); and how memory can be fallible, and how to best write about family members (47:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books as The Longest Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain. Notable Links:
What it's like to spend a full year traveling within a day's radius of your home 13 Feb 202400:57:12
“Unless we explore our neighborhood, we can’t imagine what might be right under our noses, nor be able to celebrate it, mourn its demise, or take action.” –Alastair Humphreys In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Alastair Humphreys discuss the concept of his new book Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wilderness (1:30); what Alastair found on his close-to-home adventures in England (7:00); the surprises he found in industrial and post-industrial environments (13:00); how he learned to pay better attention to the natural environment in the areas he explored (19:30); "rights of access," and how it affects hiking in Europe; and the idea of the "big here" versus the "small here" (25:00); how Alastair sought to embrace "stillness" during his experiment (33:30); how the changing of the seasons affected his experience of the local environments (40:30); and the role that imagination plays in having adventures close to home (48:00). Alastair Humphreys (@Al_Humphreys) is an English adventurer, author and motivational speaker. He is responsible for the rise of the idea of the microadventure – short, local, accessible adventures. His newest book, out this year, is Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wildness. Notable Links: The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.
Sports, superstitions, and sacraments: A Deviate Super Bowl Special (2024 remix) 04 Feb 202401:24:47

“I hate the Kansas City Chiefs with a passion reserved only for things that I love.” —Tod Goldberg

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf shares his 2002 NPR “Savvy Traveler” dispatch about trying to watch the Super Bowl in Thailand (3:00); then he and Tod Goldberg discuss how they became NFL football fans as kids in the 1970s, and how this affected their fandom later in life (8:00); how it could be difficult in the days before the Internet for kids to find information about NFL teams and players, and which books they read about the early days of pro football (23:00); the origins of the San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs in upstart pro leagues, their more recent fortunes in the NFL, and how the last Chiefs Super Bowl appearance was nine months before Rolf was born (38:30); on watching Super Bowls from overseas and following the Chiefs (or 49ers) as adults, the strengths of the 2020 Chiefs and 49ers teams, and the emotional stakes of Super Bowl LIV (49:00); how the Chiefs have dominated the AFC in the four years since 2020, how this success has affected people’s perception of them, and how the Chiefs’ Midwesternness makes them different from other NFL dynasties (1:05:30); the role superstition plays in sports fandom, how some team fandom comes out of love for individual players, how fandom creates a leveling of social classes, and the merits of “fair weather” fandom (1:10:30).

Novelist Tod Goldberg (@todgoldberg) is the New York Times bestselling author of over a dozen books, most notably the Gangsterland series of crime novels. He is also the director of the University of California-Riverside Palm Desert Low-Residency MFA.

NFL games and players:

Tim Ferriss and Rolf discuss travel, time wealth, and “success management” 09 Jan 202402:08:27

“Billionaires can’t take a week off? What’s the point of having a billion dollars if they have fewer options than I do?”  –Tim Ferriss

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim discuss common travel fantasies, and the fears that keep people from traveling (5:00); how we can redefine what “wealth” is and live fuller lives (18:00); why keeping a healthy perspective on information intake, technology, and “efficiency” is important, both on the road and in daily life (25:00); the “beginner’s mind,” and tips for writing and creativity (54:00);  the merits of going on foot and “getting lost” on the road, and how this figured into Rolf’s writing classes (1:17:00); notions of “success,” and how to definite the notion of success in a way that enhances one’s way of being in the world (1:37:00); and Rolf’s recommendations for drinks, food, documentaries, books, and poetry (1:50:00);

Tim Ferriss (@tferriss) is a best-selling author and podcaster.

General Links:

Interview Links:

The best journeys explore mindscapes as well as landscapes (book club remix) 28 Nov 202300:41:56

“Sometimes it’s good to sit still and let a place move through you instead of you moving through a place.”  –Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how one can be vulnerable to new experiences on the road instead of micromanaging an itinerary (2:00); how monuments to mortality help us think of travel moments in an existential way (11:30); how we can take the mindset of travel back home with us when the journey is over, and how the experience of travel changes as you age (20:00); the role of ritual and ceremony in slow travel, and the simple things we have in common with our host cultures (30:00).

Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England.

Notable Links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Why a chapter about "slum tourism" was edited out of The Vagabond's Way (with Chloe Cooper Jones) 01 Apr 202500:56:25

“Travel does not require leaving your city or state or country, but it does require leaving your comfort zone. And that can happen a block or two away from where you live.” –Chloe Cooper Jones

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe talk about why a section about “slum tourism” was cut out of Rolf’s newest book The Vagabond’s Way (2:30); how so much of what we talk about when we talk about travel has industrialized middle-class presumptions (7:30); the motivations and ethical considerations that underpin seeking out disadvantaged neighborhoods as a traveler (15:00); how preconceived narratives and “cultural extraction” often motivates people’s experience in a city, in ways that do not always benefit the city (25:00); what “dark tourism” and “voluntourism” are, and what the ethical ramifications are for travelers (32:00); and the difference between articulating ideals, and the work of acting on those ideals (45:00).

Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University.

Notable Links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Long-term travel 101: Matt Kepnes on how to slow down and save money on an extended global journey 25 Mar 202500:28:29

“The most difficult part about traveling the world isn’t actually the logistics of a trip—it’s finding the courage to go in the first place.” —Matt Kepnes

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how his travel style has changed over the years, and how fears affect people’s travels (1:00); strategies for saving money on the road (10:30); and strategies for finding activities on the road, and where to start a long-term journey (19:30).

Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $75 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad.

Notable Links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Travel memoir lab: On blending travel narrative with a broader memoiristic life-narrative 04 Mar 202500:37:07

“We do a lot of writing alone, in our own space. But writing is not a solitary practice. The business of writing requires a community.” –Angelique Stevens

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Angelique talk about what her writing life is like in the decade since she first took Rolf’s Paris class, with the ambition of becoming a travel writer, and how her travel book transformed into something different (2:00); how Angelique gave herself permission to write about herself in an honest way, and what craft lessons have helped her writing (8:00); and Angelique’s reading habits as a writer, her writing process, and how she came to think of herself as a writer (23:00).

Angelique Stevens‘ is creative writing professor whose nonfiction has been published in Best American Essays two years in a row (2022, edited by Alexander Chee and 2023 edited by Vivian Gornick), Granta, LitHub, The New England Review, and a number of anthologies.

Notable Links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

How a journey on the Hippie Trail changed Rick Steves' life (and influenced Rolf's travels too) 11 Feb 202500:44:26

“Anybody with curiosity and wanderlust can have their own Hippie Trail. They just need to get away from home, embrace the world, and have an adventure.” –Rick Steves

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Rick talk about Rick’s 1990s book Asia Through the Back Door, and how Rick recently rediscovered the old Asia travel journals he kept as a young man (2:30); how Rick prepared for the journey in the era before there were many guidebooks to the regions he was headed (9:30); what the experience of travel was like for Rick and his friend Gene on the Hippie Trail, including spiritual experiences (18:00); how travel can expand your sense of community, and diversify your sense for what wealth and poverty is (28:00); Rick’s first experience of smoking hash on the Hippie Trail, and how it gave him an appreciation for the joy of travel (34:00); and what lessons Rick brought home from the experience (39:00).

Rick Steves (@ricksteveseurope) is a travel expert, author, and TV host who specializes in Europe. His newest book is On the Hippie Trail: Istanbul to Kathmandu and the Making of a Travel Writer.

Notable Links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

A travel writers' Super Bowl special: Pico Iyer and Rolf discuss NFL football from the global perspective 31 Jan 202500:38:55

“My life has often forced me to watch the Super Bowl in unusual circumstances. The first Super Bowl found me in boarding school in England, huddled under my bedclothes with an illegal transistor radio.” –Pico Iyer

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about the novelty of two travel writers talking about the Super Bowl, and Pico’s NFL fandom (4:00); how sports can be a therapeutic diversion from the more serious aspects of life, and which players are Rolf and Pico’s all-time favorites (13:00); Pico and Rolf’s old articles for Sports Illustrated, and how narratives attach themselves to sporting contests (21:00); and what Pico’s plan and predication is for the 2025 Super Bowl (32:30).

Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence.

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Pico Iyer on how solitude, stillness, and silence play an essential counterbalance to the traveling life 14 Jan 202500:55:24

“In solitude, I often feel closer to the people I care for than when they’re in the same room.” –Pico Iyer

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about how the best travels are often counterbalanced with a kind of stillness, in which one can find one’s “best self” (3:00); Pico’s decades-long experiences with monks in a California monastery, the benefits of a “childlike attitude” toward life, and how “fire” can be a metaphor for spiritual life (12:00); how Pico’s solitude is informed by, and in conversation with, nature (22:00); Pico’s engaged relationship with spiritual communities, even though he is not religious (30:00); the “counterculture” spiritual tradition that grew up around Big Sur, California, and the power of longing (39:00); and how solitude can be a gateway to other people (47:00).

Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Life changing travel experiences: Memories of traveling to Syria, 25 years on (with Ari Shaffir) 31 Dec 202401:23:01

“Syria is a mix of everything. There are multiple Christian cultures, multiple Muslim cultures, and multiple languages. It’s the crossroads of the world. It made for some of my best travel memories from that time of my life.” —Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate (which was remixed from an episode of Ari Shaffir’s You Be Trippin’ podcast), Rolf and Ari talk about when and why Rolf traveled to Syria back in the day, and what it was like when he got there (3:30); his experience in staying in a Christian monastery in the mountains outside of Damascus (18:30); Rolf’s journey to the Tigris River, his experience with the Kurds he met in a Syria-Turkey border town, and the types of food on offer in Syria (28:30); Rolf’s enjoyable experience of watching the movie Con Air on a long-distance bus in Syria, and his experience of going to a Sudanese refugee church in Damascus (37:00); Rolf’s experience of accepting hospitality from Syrian Kurds, the experience of eavesdropping on American music at an Aleppo hotel, and what it’s like to watch American movies in other countries (47:00); old travel clothing and gear that Rolf still uses 25 years on, and Rolf’s travel tips and next destinations (1:07:00).

Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of theYou Be Trippin’ podcast,. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube.

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An audiobook about how (not) to write a travel book: 9 lessons from my failed van-life memoir 02 Sep 202501:11:41

“No endeavor to write a travel book is ever lost, since it gives you a useful perspective on (and intensified attention to) the reality of the travel experience itself. When embraced mindfully, the real-time experience of a journey is invariably its truest reward.”  –Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf touches on nine lessons from attempting to write a (never finished) van-life vagabonding memoir at age 23, including:

On Pilgrims in a Sliding World (1:00)

Lesson #1: No work is lost (and “failure” has lessons to teach)

On the author as a character (6:30)

Lesson #2: “Show, don’t tell” is still good narrative advice

On depicting other people (14:30)

Lesson #3: Travel books require reporting (not just recollecting)

On recounting dialogues (22:30)

Lesson #4: Be true to what was said (but make sure it serves a broader purpose)

On veering from the truth (32:30)

Lesson #5: The truth tends to work better than whatever you might make up

On depicting places (39:30)

Lesson #6: “Telling details” are better than broad generalizations about a place

On neurotic young-manhood (48:30)

Lesson #7: Balance narrative analysis with narrative vulnerability

The seeds of Vagabonding (1:01:30)

Lesson #8: Over time, we write our way into what we have to say

The journey was the point (1:06:30)

Lesson #9: In the end, taking the journey counts for more than writing it

Books mentioned:

Essays, poems, and short stories mentioned...

Vagabonding pioneer Ed Buryn on what indie travel was like in the 1960s and 1970s (encore) 05 Aug 202500:52:36

“Realizing that you will die greatly clarifies your vision of life, and stimulates opportunities for making the vision real.”  –Ed Buryn

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ed discuss the impetus behind Ed’s first travels to Europe by van in the 1960s, and his early forays into self-printed and self-promoted books about the experience (3:00); how travel to Europe was different 50 years ago, and the joy and freedom that comes with not knowing what happens next (14:30); Ed’s philosophies and influences, including living in “the now” (21:00); how travel allows you to reinvent yourself, and how meeting people is the best gift of travel (36:00); and Ed’s ambitions for poetry and travel, and his advice to travelers in today’s world (44:30).

Ed Buryn is an author and photographer who was one of the first to popularize the term “vagabonding” through the publication of his books Vagabonding In Europe and North America and Vagabonding in America. For more about Ed, check out https://edburyn.com.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Dare to do Dirt”: Seeking rural places (and how to best experience them) 08 Aug 202300:40:37

“Domestic travel to rural places can be as important as international travel that is more obviously cross-cultural.”  –Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Marci talk about how the best trips are guided by curiosity about eight key things, rather than checklists (2:00); what Marci has learned from several decades of writing guidebooks to rural and small-town Kansas, and how these places are worth fighting for (10:30); how urban people can better experience rural places (17:00); using your five senses as a traveler, and other strategies for exploring the nuances of new places (26:30); and seeing places as “mysteries to be solved” (37:30).

Marci Penner (@GetRuralKansas) is the executive director of the Kansas Sampler Foundation, which preserves and sustains rural culture by educating Kansans about Kansas and networking and supporting rural communities. She is involved with the PowerUp Movement (empowerment of those 21-39 who are rural by choice), the Big Rural Brainstorm, and the We Kan! Conference.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Eric Weiner’s journey into the ways philosophy compels us to live better 25 Aug 202001:04:32

“The more we try to seize happiness, the more it slips from our grasp. Happiness is a by-product, never an objective. It’s an unexpected windfall from a life lived well.” –Eric Weiner

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Eric discuss why practicing (rather than just studying) philosophy is important (2:00); which philosophies make the most sense during pandemic, and Nietzsche’s notion of “Eternal Recurrence” (10:00); aging versus staying young, and the similarities between Greek and Buddhist philosophy (21:00); how travel underpins the philosophical journey, and how train travel promotes deep thinking (31:00); how walking enables thinking and reflection, and the value or art and music (42:00); and loving life while also coming to terms with death (53:00).

Eric Weiner (@Eric_Weiner) is an award-winning journalist, bestselling author, and speaker. His books include The Geography of Bliss and The Geography of Genius, as well as the spiritual memoir Man Seeks God and, his latest title, The Socrates Express. Eric is a former foreign correspondent for NPR, and reporter for The New York Times. For more about Eric, check out https://ericweinerbooks.com/

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Life changing travel experiences: The best hostel ever (in Cairo) 18 Aug 202001:07:34

“There are so many ways travel can change your life, in ways you could never imagine before you leave home.”  –Daniel Neely

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reads his essay, Backpackers’ Ball at the Sultan Hotel (7:30) before he and Dan reflect on the international cast of characters they met at at the Sultan Hotel in Cairo, and how workaday activities can make the city more interesting than tourist attractions (36:30); the friendships you make in hostels and how they end up shaping your life (44:45); how smartphones may have changed the vibe of some hostels, and how interacting with strangers at hostels can change your life (60:00).

A native of Arizona, Daniel Neely served as Peace Corps volunteer in Honduras in the early 2000s. He now works as a Senior Advisor in Emergency Preparedness at the Wellington (New Zealand) Region Emergency Management Office. He previously appeared on Deviate episode 42, “How to survive a natural disaster.” 

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This episode of Deviate is brought to you by

Brian Koppelman on the intimacy of podcasting and the genius of Iron Maiden 11 Aug 202000:45:22

“My ambition was not financial, but a creative ambition toward fulfillment and satisfaction — and to be a better human toward those whom I loved.” – Brian Koppelman

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Brian discuss podcast fandom, and how listening to podcasts is intimate in a way other media is not (2:00); self-improvement and ambition versus fulfillment, and the cultural reach of what Brian has created (11:00); the influence of music, and how a single album or artwork affects you at certain ages or times of your life (22:00); and masculine emotions as they are expressed in music, and writing to music informs your creativity (41:00).

Brian Koppleman (@briankoppelman) is a screenwriter and co-creator / showrunner of the television show Billions. His screenwriting credits include Rounders and Ocean’s Thirteen. He is also the host of The Moment podcast. 

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Vagabonding pioneer Ed Buryn on what indie travel was like in the 1960s 04 Aug 202000:52:30

“Realizing that you will die greatly clarifies your vision of life, and stimulates opportunities for making the vision real.”  –Ed Buryn

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ed discuss the impetus behind Ed’s first travels to Europe by van in the 1960s, and his early forays into self-printed and self-promoted books about the experience (3:00); how travel to Europe was different 50 years ago, and the joy and freedom that comes with not knowing what happens next (14:30); Ed’s philosophies and influences, including living in “the now” (21:00); how travel allows you to reinvent yourself, and how meeting people is the best gift of travel (36:00); and Ed’s ambitions for poetry and travel, and his advice to travelers in today’s world (44:30).

Ed Buryn is an author and photographer who was one of the first to popularize the term “vagabonding” through the publication of his books Vagabonding In Europe and North America and Vagabonding in America. For more about Ed, check out https://edburyn.com.

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This episode of Deviate is brought to you by Tortuga Backpacks, which set the standard for the best, most durable, organized, and comfortable travel backpacks. Tortu...

Kevin Kelly on how travel has changed over the past 50 years [rebroadcast] 28 Jul 202001:45:45

“I met people who would say, ‘I wish I had more time to travel like you do.’ They had more money than time, and I had more time than money. In terms of traveling it’s much better to have more time than more money. …If you have a chance to travel, just do it. You won’t regret it.” – Kevin Kelly

Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a polymath in the truest sense of the word. Aside from being a co-founder of Wired magazine, he is also co-founder of the Rosetta Project, which is aiming to build an archive of all documented human languages, and he serves on the board of the Long Now Foundation. He is a photographer, writer, and futurist (he was “futurist adviser” on the 2002 Steven Spielberg movie, Minority Report), with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture.

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kevin discuss the inspiration for his Asia travel in the 1970s (3:00); getting around and dealing with language barriers (15:00); the people he encountered while traveling in Asia, and the life-expanding nature of his journey (32:00); what he packed (47:00); modernity and technology in Asia, and managing his photography during travel (1:07:00); and self-actualization, discovering oneself through travel, and what the future holds in Asia.

For more on Kevin, check out http://kk.org/

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Remembering Bettina Gilois (and what writers can learn from her work) 21 Jul 202001:34:09

“The opening line of your work should hold within it the germ of your entire idea. Attention spans are growing ever shorter. Grab your reader while you can.” – Bettina Gilois

Bettina Gilois (1961-2020) was an award-winning screenwriter and author who worked in Hollywood for more than thirty years. Her screen credits included McFarland, USA and Glory Road.

In this rebroadcast episode of Deviate (which originally aired in July of 2019), Bettina and Rolf discuss writing about real people (4:00); Bettina’s career path and the importance of perseverance (24:00); the importance of simplicity in storytelling (41:00); why certain stories are worth telling (56:00); and the craft of writing (1:15:00).

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This episode of Deviate is brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you’ve ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey.

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Talking with my parents about how to handle it when your parents die 14 Jul 202000:48:59

“In America aging is often seen as an insult rather than an inevitable human process. We don’t celebrate getting older; we ‘fight’ age by pretending to be young.” –Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate Rolf and his parents, Alice and George Potts, talk about how surviving the COVID-19 pandemic has changed their relationship, and how it gave them a pretext to go through a “death checklist” together (3:00); how one’s grandparents and parents live on in one’s memories and one’s conversations, the life-values they passed on, and what it felt like when those loved ones declined and died (14:00); how, over the years, elderly people and philosophers have come to terms with notions of decline and death (31:00); and personal insights about what it’s like to have grown older after having lived a long life (44:00).

George and Alice Potts are retired schoolteachers based in Kansas. George taught science at various Wichita high schools, as well as at Friends University, where he pioneered graduate-level programs in Zoo Science and Environmental Studies. He also helped facilitate the Outdoor Wildlife Learning Sites (OWLS) program for the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks. Alice taught second graders in the Wichita public schools for more than 30 years. In 1994 her classes succeed in promoting legislation to declare the barred tiger salamander the Kansas State Amphibian.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: W...

Bonus: Unpacking the mission of travel-writing in the 21st century 07 Jul 202000:40:16

“One of the miracles of travel writing is to constantly be reminded of how much we don’t know.” – Doug Bock Clark

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Doug discuss how travel writing is defined, and what purposes it serves in the twenty-first century (3:30), the boundaries of travel writing, the nuanced task of trying to humanize people in a travel story, and the future of the form (19:00). Then, Rolf reads his essay, “Why Travel Writing Matters” from the Fall 2017 issue of The Chattahoochee Review (29:00).

Doug Bock Clark (@DougBockClark) is a GQ correspondent and a contributor for the website of The New Yorker. His first book, The Last Whalers, was a New York Times Notable Book for 2019. He also produced the feature documentary Assassins, which premiered at Sundance in January 2020 and was inspired by one of his investigations.

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This episode of Deviate is brought to you by

What the world’s last subsistence hunters can teach us about humanity 02 Jul 202000:56:55

“The Lamalerans hunt in a way that is almost exactly the same as the way people hunted during Moby Dick’s time. Going on one of these hunts is analogous to what Ishmael or Queequeg was doing.” –Doug Bock Clark

In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Doug talk about how he came to write about the Lamalerans, and how he aimed to evoke a sense for what it’s like to live in the isolated fishing communities of that part of the world (2:30); how and why the Lamalerans came to embrace a traditional hunting and barter lifestyle, and what indigenous groups are trying to live similar lifestyles (7:30); unique social rituals, spiritual systems, and ways of speaking carried out by Lamalerans (18:30); what aspects of modernity had been embraced by the tribespeople, and why, when Doug went to that part of the world (25:00); Doug’s personal experience of living on the island with the Lamalerans, and how he chose to tell the story of the islanders​ (33:00); how the influence of technology and the outside world, including tourism, is affecting the Lamalerans (41:00); and what encounters with cultures like this can teach us about who we are, who we were, and who we will be (53:00).

Doug Bock Clark (@DougBockClark) is a GQ correspondent and a contributor for the website of The New Yorker. His first book, The Last Whalers, was a New York Times Notable Book for 2019. He also produced the feature documentary Assassins, which premiered at Sundance in January 2020 and was inspired by one of his investigations.

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This episode of Deviate is brought to you by Tortuga Backpacks, which set the...

Revisiting The Great Gatsby, high-school-style, in quarantine 30 Jun 202000:53:38

“One reason why Gatsby is called a ‘Great American Novel’ is that it illuminates a conversation we haven’t stopped having in this country. We keep pretending to be people we’re not.” –Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate Rolf and his old high school friends reflect on the role of Nick Carraway as the narrator of The Great Gatsby, how he deals with race and privilege, and whether or not his perspective is reliable (7:00); Fitzgerald’s use of language and juxtaposition in depicting characters and their relationships (22:00); the characters’ lack of moral grounding amid the opulence and wealth, and how it drives the story (28:00); how the youth and the age of the characters in Gatsby resonates differently depending your age when you read it (38:30); and how big questions like love, money, and life are addressed in the novel (49:00). [Easter Egg “Lightning Round” kicks in at 51:45.]

Kaye Monk-Morgan is an Assistant Vice President for Academic Affairs at Wichita State University, where she facilitates leadership and professional development opportunities for low-income and first-generation students. Erin Perry O’Donnell operates Dovetail Community Workshop, which teaches woodworking classes in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Tom Davis teaches English at Sumner Academy of Arts & Science in Kansas City, Kansas.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Vagabonding audio companion: Why (and how) travel souvenirs matter 25 Jul 202300:45:02

“A souvenir can be anything from a travel experience that honors a certain moment in your life, certifies the journey that took you there, and celebrates the confluence of people and places and actions that made it possible.”  – Rolf Potts

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Suzanne talk about the ways souvenirs help narrate our travel experiences (2:00); the five different historical categories of travel souvenirs (7:30); the old trend of collecting hair and bones from famous people (15:00); what kinds of souvenirs are popular with travelers (20:00); which souvenirs Rolf sought when he visited Australia, and how some souvenirs make less sense when you get them home (24:30); then Rolf and Gina talk about childhood travel souvenirs (30:00); how photographs are a kind of souvenir, and how they create different memories than objects (36:00); and how the notion of “authenticity” in regard to souvenirs can be complicated (40:00).

Suzanne Hill is the presenter of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s “Weekend Nightlife.”

Gina Kaufmann is an essayist and radio journalist, most recently at KCUR, the NPR affiliate in Kansas City.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Why travelers visit museums (in places like Iceland), and what they find there 23 Jun 202000:50:10

“You can’t ever really know what a museum will offer you until you get there.” – Kendra Green

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kendra discuss their own earliest fascination with museums (2:40); the appeal and particularities of Icelandic museums (10:00); museums as a form of national identity (24:00); the relationship of collecting to the creation of museums (35:00); and museums as a way of engaging with one’s imagination (46:00).

 Kendra Greene is a writer, artist, and author of The Museum of Whales You Will Never See. She has worked at various museums, including the Museum of Contemporary Photography, and the Chicago History Museum. Karen is currently Associate Editor of prose at the Southwest Review and a Fellow at Harvard University’s Library Innovation Lab. For more about Kendra, check out http://akendragreene.com.  

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This episode of Deviate is brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. Airtreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializ...

Life changing travel experiences: Jumping freight trains in the Pacific NW 16 Jun 202001:27:25

“He gave us five rules for jumping freight trains, and we broke every one of those rules once the adventure began.” –Brian H

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and his longtime friend Brian recall their old ambition to jump freight trains across the Pacific Northwest, and what factors inspired it (4:00); what kinds of research and preparation they did to make the train-jumping experience possible (16:30); the early hours of their attempt to reach Canada by catching a boxcar from the Vancouver, Washington rail yard, and the dangers of challenges that awaited them (28:30); their unanticipated detour through the Columbia Gorge to Pasco, and their experience of getting detained by railroad police in Spokane (35:00); making the decision to escape Spokane by retracing their route, and getting stuck in a “hobo jungle” in the town of Wishram (56:30); making sense of the adventure afterwards, and how train-jumping has (and has not) changed in the social-media age (1:15:30).

Notable links:

Freight-jumping links:

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. 

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Kate Harris on the way travel can lead us into deeper questions about the universe 09 Jun 202001:04:54

“Travel is often one part geography and nine parts imagination.” –Kate Harris

In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Kate discuss Kate’s early fixation with exploration and interest in Mars (3:00); science as a catalyst for exploration (10:30); the universality of the human experience and her trip through Asia (21:00); the concept of borders (32:00); nostalgia and the transformational effect of travel (43:00); the role of home in relation to travel (52:00); and letting adventure into your life (1:02:00).

Kate Harris (@kateonmars) is an adventure writer, named by Condé Nast Traveler as one of the “world’s most adventurous women.” Her work has appeared in Outside, The Walrus, and Georgia Review. Her book, Lands of Lost Borders, is a national bestseller For more about Kate, check out www.kateharris.ca

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This episode of Deviate is brought to you by

Andrew McCarthy on the Proust Questionnaire (and Brat Pack legacy) 02 Jun 202000:47:15

“I had a great day in Cambodia, and I was like, ‘Oh my god I’m so happy right now.’ I had no idea what I was doing, or what I would discover, and I just trusted that I would be OK.” –Andrew McCarthy

In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Andrew discuss his relationship with interviews and the origin of the Brat Pack (3:30); fear and journaling in the time of pandemic, and treasured possessions (12:30); regrets, and artistic truth (23:00); writing as a way of thinking, and what Andrew values in his friends (29:00); and happiness, quarantine-reading, The Great Gatsby, and coming to terms with ones youthful success (38:00).

Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy), who rose to fame as a teen actor during the John Hughes 80’s era, is a television director and writer of such books as The Long Way Home and Just Fly Away. 

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How to balance creative success with business success: An open chat 26 May 202001:17:24

“The dualities of the ‘creative person’ and the ‘business person’ don’t need to exist any more, because one person can do all of it.” –Sachit Gupta

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Sachit discuss creativity versus business success, and the currency of social media (2:30); the diminishing returns of listening to advice, and the importance of action (16:00); interview and preparation techniques, and how how “bringing value” can apply to spiritual ideas as readily as business ideas (24:00); being creative in business, and how creative people are now expected to do their own marketing and promotion (36:00); thinking innovatively, and breaking with habit and tradition (44:00); how success can be compromised in the clickbait era, and creativity in the age of social media (59:00).

Sachit Gupta (@sachitgupta) is the founder of Platforms Media, where he helps creators build, grow, and scale their online platforms to amplify their message and connect with brands. He is also the host of the Conscious Creators Show. 

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How underground exploration is the perennial frontier of adventure travel 19 May 202001:01:20

“Even the briefest trip into a tunnel or a cave can feel like an escape into a parallel reality, the way characters in children’s books vanish through portals into secret worlds.”  –Will Hunt

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Will talk about our imaginative relationship with underground places, and how it often starts in childhood (4:30); the concept of “urban exploration” in the industrial spaces underneath cities, and Will’s fascination with a NYC graffiti artist named REVS (11:00); the catacombs of Paris, how easy it is to get lost underground, and how hard it is to map underground passages (26:15); going underground as a form of time travel, the microbes that live underground, and the relics that can be found underground (40:00); the spiritual aspect of spending time underground in the dark zone of a cave (51:00); and how and why to get started exploring underground (59:00).

Will Hunt’s (@willhunt__) writing, photography, and audio storytelling have appeared in The Economist, the Paris Review Daily, The Atavist, The Guardian, Discover, Audible Originals, and Outside, among other places. He is currently a visiting scholar at the NYU Institute for Public Knowledge. Underground is his first book. More about Will at: https://www.willhunt.net/

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This episode of Deviate is brought to you by Tortuga Backpacks, which set the standard for the best, most durable, organized, and comfortable travel backpacks. Tortuga products also include daypacks, duffels, and other travel accessories, which are all made with the traveler in mind and have been featured by Wirecutter, The New York Times, Travel + Leisure, Business Insider, Carryology, and many other...

Honeymoon without her husband: Maggie Downs’ uncommon world journey 12 May 202000:50:45

“You need to create your own life, and gather memories while you still can. There are no guarantees that you will have a ‘next year’ or a ‘ten years from now’ or even a tomorrow.” –Maggie Downs

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Maggie discuss how she started traveling (3:00); “trying on” different versions of yourself during travel (17:00); and travel as a way to reflect on your life (37:00).

Maggie Downs (@downsanddirty) is an award-winning writer whose work has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, and Lonely Planet’s True Stories From the World’s Best Writers and Best Women’s Travel Writing. She is the author of Braver Than You Think.

This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey.

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. 

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

The win-win of being a mentor, with Cal Fussman and Alex Banayan 07 May 202001:16:07

“I reached out to dozens of potential mentors. The two that that changed my life are the ones who didn’t give me advice upon first meeting me, but asked me questions..” –Alex Banayan

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Cal, and Alex discuss how Alex realized he desperately he needed help in writing his book The Third Door, how Cal Fussman came to help him with the project, and why asking questions is as essential of a mentor as is giving advice (5:30); why the vulnerability and tension of good storytelling is more essential than conveying dry facts in writing a business book, and how Cal encouraged Alex to recount a humiliating story about sending a single shoe to Warren Buffet at the behest of a bad-faith mentor (23:00); what happens when a would-be mentor gives the mentee advice out of narcissism or bad faith, and how to know when not to heed the advice of a mentor (35:00); how to find and recount the most vulnerable and appealing part of your own life-narrative, and how Cal taught himself how to tell good stories (42:00); what Cal and Alex’s mentoring sessions looked like, in terms of what Cal was trying to get Alex to understand (51:00); what Cal learned from Alex as his mentor, how Alex’s insights improved his career, and what older people in general can learn from younger people (56:30); and what kinds of advice Cal and Alex have for people seeking to discover and fine-tune mentor-mentee relationships (1:02:00).

Cal Fussman (@calfussman) is a journalist, author, and Writer at Large for Esquire Magazine, where he has interviewed the likes of Muhammad Ali, Mikhail Gorbachev, Jeff Bezos, Richard Branson, Robert DeNiro and hundreds of others who’ve shaped the last half-century. Alex Banayan (@AlexBanayan) was named to Forbes’ 30 Under 30, and Business Insider’s “Most Powerful People Under 30” lists. He is the author of the international bestseller The Third Door. For more about Cal and Alex, check out their websites, https://www.calfussman.com and https://thirddoorbook.com.

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Why a “Shelter in Place Film Festival” beats bingeing video right now 06 May 202000:53:25

“Binge watching is designed to make time disappear. A home film festival is designed to be time well spent.”  –Kevin Smokler

Kevin Smokler (@weegee) is a writer, public speaker, critic, and author of Brat Pack America and Practical Classics. He speaks on the future of media and culture and his written work has appeared in such publications as the Los Angeles Times, Buzzfeed, and Vulture. He previously appeared as a guest on Episode 33 of Deviate, Why 1980s coming-of-age movies matter, and Episode 60, “Celebrating the best travel movies ever.”

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kevin explain how to organize and execute a Shelter in Place Film Festival as an alternative to bingeing video during a time of pandemic. Kevin hosts a full guide online at his website, but here’s an outline version:

Notes on creating a Shelter in Place Film Festival
  1. Establish a time-constraint

An afternoon? A day? A weekend? Film Festivals are inherently a time-bound activity.

It may seem counterintuitive to begin planning with how much time you wish to spend watching movies rather than how many or what movies you wish to see. But you can always add movies if everyone’s having a great time, or cut the lineup short if everyone’s falling asleep.

Setting a time-limit also creates reasonable expectations. Watching eleven movies in a day is not going to happen. Watching three over a week might seem anti-climactic, something you’d do anyway instead of creating an event. Film festivals are about maximizing quality for each hour spent watching, not about watching until you and your guests physically can’t anymore.

  1. Establish who will be a part of it

A film festival for just you and your loved ones at home is the easiest way to do this. Level up by inviting friends or another family to join: Everyone watches the movies in their own home then signs on to Zoom or Google Hangout afterward at a designated time to talk about the movie you just saw.

If you’re making it a truly virtual film festival, it’s a bit more important to stick to a schedule so all participants know when they should be watching and when they should be talking with each other.

  1. Choose a leader and delegate responsibilities

You can either designate a leader who picks all the movies, or you can create a list based on a theme (see next) and vote. A designated leader, like dictatorship, is more efficient. Democracy, as Oscar Wilde said, “is great but takes up a lot of weeknights.”

If you’re the leader, do your own research and come up with the program or poll your own electorate of family and friends for both a theme or movies that fit it. But remember, this kind of film festival is designed to entertain the guests, not show what sort of genius you were for coming up with the event in the first place.

Film festivals benefit from a strong leader so the movies are well chosen and hang together. Someone who is a leader, but listens to those he/she has invited to the festival.

Using your travel skills to make quarantine life better: An open chat 05 May 202000:57:56

“Give yourself the luxury of unplugging from the news cycle. Like travel, this will allow you to reconnect with an older way of being human.”  –Rolf Potts

To celebrate the launch of Deviate Season 3, Rolf gets the tables turned on him as he is interviewed by Konrad Waliszewski as part of TripScout’s #TravelFromHome initiative. Discussion topics include how travel skills apply to quarantine life at home, and how to engage in creative new habits a familiar environment (3:00); how to find serendipity and spontaneity at home when you can’t travel (12:00); hopes and advice for “getting travel right” once we’re able to travel again (17:30); how to engage in the spirit of long-term travel when you have a more traditional life, such as kids or a place-based job (26:00); which travel books Rolf recommends right now, why he started the Deviate podcast, and which projects he plans to tackle in the near-future (31:00); and how Rolf plans his journeys, what inspired his early travels, and how he seeks to go vagabonding in places close to home (43:00).

Konrad Waliszewski (@goKonrad) is the CEO and co-founder of TripScout, a travel entertainment platform and app that provides a portal for visual discovery by featuring the best articles and videos from top publishers and local influencers for each destination. Prior to TripScout, he was the COO of Speek as well as a consultant for private equity firms and Fortune 500 companies.

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Travel can return you to a kind of childhood (online book club remix) 11 Jul 202300:46:30

“In alien parts, we speak more simply, unencumbered by the histories that we carry around at home, and look more excitedly, with eyes of wonder.” —Pico Iyer

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how he prepares for the book-club sessions (1:30); how the first days of one’s journeys have an optimistic energy and excitement, and how “culture shock” is a real thing (4:00); how travel can put us into a childlike mental state, and how travel expectations can lead to unfair disappointments (13:00); how food, even anomalous food, tells specific stories about places, and Rolf’s strategy for keeping a travel journal (21:30); how the “beaten path” is beaten for good reasons, but straying from it yields serendipitous rewards (31:00); and simple strategies for staying safe and dealing with burnout on the road (42:00).

Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England.

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The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

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