Deviate – Details, episodes & analysis

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30).

Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center.

Notable Links:

• 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class)
• Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes)
• Before Sunrise (1995 movie)
• Before Sunset (2004 movie)
• Ethan Hawke (American actor and director)
• Julie Delpy (French actress and director)
• Richard Linklater (American filmmaker)
• Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre)
• Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay)
• BritRail (train pass in the UK)
• London A-Z (street atlas)
• Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band)
• Wembley Stadium (London venue)
• Continuous partial attention (behavior)
• Slacker (1990 film)
• Dazed and Confused (1993 film)
• Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist)
• Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries)
• The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf)

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30).

Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center.

Notable Links:

• 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class)
• Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes)
• Before Sunrise (1995 movie)
• Before Sunset (2004 movie)
• Ethan Hawke (American actor and director)
• Julie Delpy (French actress and director)
• Richard Linklater (American filmmaker)
• Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre)
• Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay)
• BritRail (train pass in the UK)
• London A-Z (street atlas)
• Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band)
• Wembley Stadium (London venue)
• Continuous partial attention (behavior)
• Slacker (1990 film)
• Dazed and Confused (1993 film)
• Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist)
• Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries)
• The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf)

“In El Salvador, I dropped $5 out of my pocket at the border, and some guy came running up to me. At the beginning of the trip I would have been surprised by that. But by that point I would have been surprised if it didn’t happen.” —Matt Savino

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how the first version of his travel book was way too long, and what he ended up editing out (6:00); the origins of Matt’s Central America road trip, why he ended up turning it into a book, and how he ended up taking Rolf’s Paris class (12:00); how Matt’s “Spreadsheet of Pain” helped him edit his book down to manageable size, and how historical research helped his narrative (17:00); how he wrote about a road trip that didn’t actually reach its objective, and how he tried to model his narrative on Bill Bryson’s writing (26:00); how Matt used a hybrid publisher to get his travel book into the world in two years (31:00); the challenges, idiosyncrasies, and creative joys that come with creating a hybrid published book (39:00); how AI bots determined that Matt had “plagiarized” what turned out to be his own book (54:00); and Matt’s advice for people interested in hybrid publishing (60:30).

Matt Savino (@ushuaia_or_bust) is the author of Land Without a Continent: A Road Trip through Mexico and Central America. He can be contacted via his website.

Notable Links:

• Paris travel memoir writing workshop (Rolf’s writing classes)
• No Baggage Challenge (Rolf’s 2010 blog and video series)
• Justin’s elephant-poop cold remedy (2010 video)
• Walking every single street in NYC (Deviate episode)
• The Sweet Superstition of Rooting for the Royals, by Rolf Potts (essay)
• Van Life Before #VanLife (Deviate episode)
• Developmental editing (pre-publication writing support)
• Hybrid publishing (assisted self-publishing)
• Jew (comedy special by Ari Shaffir)
• Perhapsing (nonfiction narrative strategy)
• Illumify Media (hybrid publisher)
• Cliff Clavin (fictional character on Cheers)
• IngramSpark (self-publishing book company)
• Kindle Direct Publishing (e-book publishing platform)

Authors, books, and agents mentioned:

• Bill Bryson (author)
• Julie Pesano (travel writer and teacher)
• Cole Kazdin (writer and writing coach)
• Who Killed the Bishop? by Francisco Goldman (book)
• Blood of B...

“When we got into this, we didn’t know how to make videos. That’s a skill we’ve had to learn, because the industry has changed so much, from photos to videos. We are still learning all the time.” —Ann Howard

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Mike, Ann and Kiki talk about they got started traveling as a couple, how they made it affordable, and how they made the transition into the world of content creation (2:15); how to navigate recording and sharing travel experiences that go wrong, including relationship dynamics (9:30); how to make travel “sustainable” in the personal and creative sense of the word (17:00); the advantages of having a “niche” as an influencer, and how sponsored travel works (24:30); and what makes travel influencers stand out from others, and the importance of learning new skills (34:00).

Mike & Anne Howard are on The World’s Longest Honeymoon, traveling for the last 13 years through 80 countries across all 7 continents. They have written and photographed a National Geographic book on couples adventure travel, Ultimate Journeys for Two, as well as the glamping guidebook, Comfortably Wild.

Notable Links:

• The 10-Year Honeymoon (video)
• Glamping (upscale camping style)
• DMO (destination marketing organization)
• Brunei (country in SE Asia)
• Timor-Leste (country in SE Asia)
• How to Get Started Housesitting (article)
• Co-living (residential community living model)
• Michelin star (restaurant rating system)
• Favelas (impoverished neighborhoods in Brazil)
• World’s Most Romantic & Sustainable Destinations (article)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Influencers are forever reinforcing the same images. They’re spending no time in the actual place, other than the requisite time to take the photo. From the local community’s point of view, these kinds of tourists bring very little value.” –Stuart McDonald

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stuart talk about why Stuart chose to make his office in West Bali, and why South Bali has developed something of a bad reputation in terms of over-tourism (2:30); the mythos of Bali, how it became a “dreamscape” in the Western consciousness, and how it has changed in recent years (6:30); why certain areas in Bali become over-touristed, and how it has recently been affected by “influencers” (18:00); how black magic and ghosts are part of the belief systems of Balinese, yet few travelers ascertain this (24:00); and how much social-media travel content leaves out essential cultural context (31:00).

Stuart McDonald (@travelfishery) is the co-founder of Travelfish.org, a travel planning website covering Southeast Asia, which he launched in 2014. He has been traveling in that part of the world since 1993, and living there since 1997.

Notable Links:

• The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)
• Bali Hai Immigrant Song (YouTube mashup)
• Dutch presence in Bali (colonialist history)
• Eat, Pray, Love, by Elizabeth Gilbert (book)
• Canggu (coastal village in Bali)
• Fly-in fly-out [FIFO] (term for temporary laborers)
• Digital nomads (remote workers who travel)
• Lonely Planet (travel guidebook publisher)
• Infinity pool (type of swimming pool)
• National Geographic (geography magazine)
• GetYourGuide (tour company)
• Gates of Heaven (photogenic temple in Bali)
• Balinese sacred textiles (sometimes wrapped on trees)
• Kastom (Melanesian traditional culture)
• Kava (sedative drink in Melanesia)
• Listicle (article structured as a list)
• Filterworld: How Algorithms Flattened Culture, by Kyle Chayka (book)
• Externality (indirect economic cost)

This episode of Deviate is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you’ve ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can c...

“We’re having less enjoyable travel experiences, even as our photos show us having this amazing time, because we’re performing a version of travel for people who aren’t even there.”

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about the time-honored Americans pretending to be Canadian on the road, and why Americans at times have had a bad reputation abroad (2:30); strategies for avoiding becoming an “Ugly American” on the road (11:00); how a fixation with comfort can get in the way of life-enriching experiences on the road (18:30); how rituals like tipping, interacting with children, or choosing what to wear in public from culture to culture (22:00); how “voluntourism” and charity on the part of travelers is often not as selfless or effective as it pretends to be (30:00); how social media has a way of turning us into superficial, image-obsessed travelers (34:00); and how technology has transformed (and constrained) the way we all travel (39:00).

David Martinez is an Associate Professor of Spanish and the director of the Center for Study Abroad at George Fox University in Newberg, Oregon.

Notable Links:

• How to study abroad, even if you aren’t a student (Deviate episode 221)
• The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)
• Flag-jacking (the practice of travelers to be from someplace they’re not)
• Paris Writing Workshop (Rolf’s travel-memoir writing classes)
• The Comfort Crisis, by Michael Easter (book)
• Misogi (Japanese Shinto ritual)
• Voluntourism (short-term charity work for travelers)
• Picturesque (aesthetic ideal)
• The Shallows, by Nicholas G. Carr (book)
• The Scent of Time, by Byung-Chul Han (book)
• George Fox Talks (podcast)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Traveling, for me, is all about destroying stereotypes and narratives about people and places.” – Matt Green

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt discuss Matt’s mission to walk every street in New York City (3:00); walking across the entire United States and breaking stereotypes (12:00); bucket lists as a catalyst for action (28:00); and Matt’s experiences walking in unfamiliar places and finding comfort in being a stranger (50:00).

Matt Green is the wanderer who was profiled within the documentary The World Before your Feet, directed by filmmaker Jeremy Workman and produced by Jesse Eisenberg. Matt has walked across the entire United States and is currently in the process of walking every street in New York City. For more about Matt and his current project, check out https://imjustwalkin.com/.

Notable Links:

• East of Eden, by John Steinbeck (book)
• East of Eden excerpt
• The Journey Home, by Edward Abbey (book)
• Cannery Row, by John Steinbeck (book)
• Cannery Row excerpt
• Gary House (traveler)
• The World Before Your Feet at Kanopy

This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you’ve ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey.

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We need positive visions of how all this technology gets deployed, because what we visualize is what we build.” –Jane Metcalfe

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jane talk about the pioneering work she did with Wired during the dawn of the “digital revolution” (3:00); how and why Jane’s professional focus shifted away from digital issues and into food and health issues in the ’00s (15:00); how science is trying to bring in diverse new data points and communication models to improve holistic health worldwide (28:30); how the health of the world’s humans is not separate from the health of the world’s animals, plants, and microorganisms, and how a bio-economy seeks to harness rather than extract the resources of nature (41:00); how regional and cultural differences affect how we perceive health, nutrition, and technology, and the importance of ethics in making scientific decisions (51:00).

Jane Metcalfe (@janemetcalfe) is the co-founder of Wired Magazine, and the chair of the Human Immunome Project, a global non-profit working to decode the immune system in order to transform how we prevent, diagnose, and treat disease.

Notable Links:

• Notes from a peripatetic salon across northern Thailand (Deviate episode)
• Hotwired (first commercial online magazine)
• HotBot (early web search engine)
• Louis Rossetto (writer, editor, and entrepreneur)
• Neuromancer, by William Gibson (science fiction novel)
• Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson (science fiction novel)
• Cyberpunk (subgenre of science fiction)
• Electric Word (technology magazine)
• Digital Revolution (shift from mechanical to electronic technologies)
• Ethernet (computer networking technology)
• proto.life (newsletter covering the neobiological revolution)
• Neo.Life: 25 Visions for the Future of Our Species, by Jane Metcalfe (book)
• The Non-GMO Project (non-profit organization)
• David Eagleman (neuroscientist)
• Human genome (complete set of nucleic acid sequences for humans)
• Immunome (code set for proteins that constitute the immune system)
• Single-cell sequencing (context-driven technique for studying cells)
• Microbiome (community of microorganisms in a habitat)
• One Health (interdisciplinary approach to ecological health)
• Zoonotic disease (disease than can jump from non-humans to humans)
• Bioeconomy (use of biotechnology in the production of goods)
• CRISPR gene editing (technique to modify genomes of living organism...

“My parents passed away and it created this sense of recklessness in me, but in a positive way: I wanted to create a travel experience and push myself and learn about myself. Because you never know how long you’re gonna be around for.” –Daniel Troia

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Daniel talk about why Daniel chose to bicycle across America with no money or food, the privileges that set him apart from people who have to do it out of necessity, and how this kind of journey is a time-honored undertaking for people experiencing grief (2:00); the kinds of people Daniel met on the trip, how his vulnerability put him into contact with new and unfamiliar people and communities, and how visiting places in person increases empathy with the people who live here (12:30); what Daniel discovered while “dumpster diving,” and other surprises he found on the road (24:30); what it was like to self-document the trip DIY style with camera glasses, a GoPro, and a drone, and what experiences didn’t make it into the film (30:30); the lessons that Daniel brought home from the trip, where he plans to travel next, and his advice for people who want to create their own bike journey (44:00); and an “Easter Egg” about Daniel’s experiences in Kansas (49:00).

Daniel Troia (@the_travelin_dude) is the director of We Are All in This Together, which documents his cross-country USA bicycle journey with no food and no money, in search of human connection.

Notable Links:

• The Kindness of Strangers, by Mike McIntyre (book)
• The Epic of Gilgamesh (ancient Mesopotamian epic poem)
• Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, by Cheryl Strayed (memoir)
• The Way (2010 Martin Sheen movie)
• Dumpster diving (method of gathering discarded food)
• Dude Making a Difference, by Robin Greenfield
• Aldi (multinational discount supermarket chain)
• Tom’s Cartoons (art by unhoused person in Arcata, CA)
• Camera glasses (wearable camera)
• GoPro (action camera)
• East St. Louis (city in Illinois)
• Two Wheels To Freedom, by Daniel Troia (film)
• Paterson (city in New Jersey)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The parent’s job as teacher on the road is to just create surface area between your kid and yourself and the world.”  –Julie Frieder

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Julie talk about what a “Wonder Year” is, how she got involved with family travel, and why traveling with children is possible and enriching for everyone involved (1:30); how to get started planning a family vagabonding journey, where to go, how long to go, how to save money, and why travel is good for your mental health (14:00); how to involve your kids in planning a travel journey, why being open to serendipity can wok better than micromanaging activities, what “worldschooling” is, and how to plan education activities on the road (27:00); how parents can learn alongside their kids on the road, and how to deal with challenges like homesickness and culture shock (39:30); the task of returning home after a long journey, and how travel makes us better parents (46:00).

Julie Frieder is the coauthor (along with Angela Heisten and Annika Paradise) of Wonder Year: A Guide to Long-Term Family Travel and Worldschooling.

Notable Links:

• The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)
• Hydrogeology (geology focusing on groundwater)
• Temple Grandin (animal behaviorist)
• “Awe Is Good for Your Brain,” by Florence Williams (Outside article)
• WWOOF (World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms)
• Unschooling (experiential learning method)
• HSLDA (homeschooling resource website)
• Worldschoolers (Facebook group)
• Lands of Lost Borders , by Kate Harris (book)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.