We sat down with Rev. Benjamin Cremer, writer, pastor, and creator of Into the Gray, to talk about what it looks like to hold sacred anger with open hands.

This conversation stretched from “What if I’m wrong?” to “How do we keep from passing our pain along?” We talked about retributive vs. restorative justice, how lament can heal our nervous systems, and why gentleness might just be the most radical form of resistance.

Ben reminded us that curiosity is a spiritual practice, lament is a sacred protest, and gentleness—far from weakness—is creativity at its finest.

KEY TAKEAWAYS: 

• Curiosity loosens fear. It moves us from I know you’re wrong to What if I’m wrong?
• Sacred rage has a direction. Aim your anger at harmful systems, not at the people trapped inside them.
• Lament is how we stop passing pain. Naming grief in community transforms rage into healing.
• Gentleness is courageous. It interrupts the cycle of violence and control with creativity, humor, and love.
• Correction comes after connection. Whether in parenting, faith, or community—belonging comes first.
• Tradition is living faith. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living.
• Transformation is slow work. Small acts of connection and compassion still change the world. 

WHY THIS EPISODE MATTERS: 

Because so many of us are carrying a mix of grief, anger, and exhaustion—and trying to figure out what to do with it.

This conversation names that ache and gives it language. It’s an invitation to move from bitterness to belonging, from outrage to imagination.

If you’ve ever felt burned by religion but still long for the sacred, if you’re learning to parent or protest differently, or if you’re craving a spirituality wide enough to hold lament and love—this one’s for you.

In this vulnerable and deeply human conversation, Esther and Lizz open up about the long, complicated process of learning to trust their emotions — after being raised in systems that taught them not to.

They talk about what it means to rebuild emotional safety after high-control religion, where feelings were often dismissed as sinful, deceptive, or dangerous. Together, they explore how learning to honor their emotions has transformed their faith, relationships, and parenting.

This episode is both tender and raw — an honest look at the messy, holy work of coming home to yourself.

Key Themes & Takeaways

Emotions Aren’t Enemies, They’re Messengers After years of hearing “faith over feeling,” both hosts are reclaiming their emotions as sacred — not something to suppress, but something to listen to. 

Righteous Anger as a Force for Good Liz shares how anger has become a holy motivator for change — a muscle she’s still learning to use wisely and courageously.

Safety, Authenticity & the Nervous System They discuss the toll of living in constant spiritual and emotional high alert — and what happens when the body finally realizes it was never truly safe.

From Faking It to Feeling It Liz’s story of exhaustion from “faking it” in faith spaces resonates with so many listeners who’ve masked their true selves to belong.

Learning to Feel Safe With Ourselves Esther shares how her own healing journey has brought her to a surprising place: genuine safety in her own presence — no longer fearing the God who was always “watching,” but resting in love itself.

Reclaiming the “Too Much” Self Together they celebrate the parts of themselves once labeled “too emotional,” “too intense,” or “too much.” As Esther says, “I’m not someone to hide — I’m someone to honor.”

Why This Episode Matters

If you were ever told your emotions were untrustworthy, that your heart was deceitful, or that safety could only be found outside yourself — this episode will meet you right where you are.

Esther and Liz remind us that feelings are not flaws. They are sacred signals that lead us toward wholeness, self-trust, and the kind of peace that can’t be forced.

''Without women we don’t have Jesus. We don’t have Christianity. We don’t have any of it.” (Claire K. McKeever-Burgett)

Our episode this week is with Claire K. McKeever-Burgett, mom of two and author of Blessed are the Women: Naming and Reclaiming Women's Stories from the Gospels.

Our conversation is full of wisdom, both fierce and tender, and the reclamation of the divine feminine in all her forms. 

We chat through these questions:

1. Were there any particular women in the Bible whose stories deeply impacted you personally? If so, why?

2. What was the most surprising thing you learned while researching the stories of these women?

3. The Bible was written in a time and culture that was largely patriarchal. How did you navigate the cultural context while writing about these women’s stories?  

4. What do you hope is the lasting impact of your work on the way people view women in the Bible? How have you and might we incorporate that into our parenting? 

5. If you were sitting at a table with your kids and you knew for sure they would take one message with them on their life’s journey, what poem of yours would you read them?

Get ready to sob your eyes out when you hear the answer to the last question. And also get ready to have your soul healed on the spot. If you want to feel understood and empowered as a woman or if you want to understand and empower women, this is the episode for you.

You can find Claire here:

Website: www.clairemckeeverburgett.com

Instagram: @clairemckeeverburgett

'''Diligent study is precisely what got us here." Jamin Coller

Our episode this week is with Jamin Coller, dad of six, podcaster and author of Dear Evangelicals.

Our conversation is passionate, funny and so very eye-opening.

We chat through these questions:

1.  Your book, Dear Evangelicals, frames deconstruction not as rebellion, but as a painful act of integrity after "stumbling upon information we didn't want." How can parents reframe their children's deconstruction as integrity, not betrayal? How can we help both deconstructionists and their former communities reframe this process as an act of integrity rather than betrayal — especially in the context of parenting?

2.  You write “We believed it when we were told all questions were welcomed.” What impact does it have on a child’s development when questions are only welcome until they cross an invisible line? And how can parents make space for the kind of questioning that once got them scorned?

3.  You state that the first wave of shame comes from the community, but the harder wave is internal — “the shame of having shelved obvious red flags for so long.” How do we process that internal shame, and what does it look like to parent from a place of healing rather than guilt?

4.  The book describes former church members instinctively seeking new spaces to preserve their faith, even after painful exits. What does this tell us about the human longing for spiritual belonging, and how do we model that search honestly for our kids?

5.  How did diligent study get you “here”? Also, for those of us who were once taught that information was dangerous, how do we now encourage our children to stay curious and think critically without fearing where it might lead?

6.  You have said that many of us try not to think — because we fear losing our salvation — and try not to speak — because we fear losing our friends. How did this play out for you personally and how do we raise children to value honesty and connection when so many of us were taught to protect belonging at the expense of our inner truth?

7.  If you could tell your kids one thing for their life journey, what would it be and why?

We found Jamin compassionate, wise and funny. If you are wondering how you got to this place of deconstructing your faith, this is the episode for you.

You can find Jamin here:

Website: jamincoller.com

Instagram:  @dear_evangelicals and @jamincoller

'''Our job as parents is not to make other people comfortable with how we raise our kids, Our job is to make sure our kids grow up in a family where they’re comfortable being exactly who they are.'' Shelly Robinson

Our episode this week is with Rachel Pinto-Martin, founder of Self Love, Healthy Boundaries Coaching, mom of two, former Mormon and fierce Queer ally and advocate.

On this episode, we talk with Rachel about what it means to have self-love along with healthy boundaries and help our kids to do the same. We also dive deep into advocacy on this front for the Queer community.

We chat through these questions:

1.  Many of us have grown up in high control religious environments that doesn’t allow for a lot of individuality. How can we begin to foster a sense of being worthy of love when our faith or upbringing told us otherwise?

2.  What does it look like to deconstruct faith in a way that allows space for self-love and acceptance, especially for those in the LGBTQ+ community?

3.  What are some practical ways parents can create an environment where their children feel safe in their own identity and accepted for who they are, especially if the parents are still deconstructing their own beliefs around sexuality and gender identity.

4. How can parents help their children navigate the complexities of faith and identity, especially if they are trying to reconcile their own religious background

5. What advice do you have for parents who are struggling to reconcile their faith with supporting their queer child?

6.  How might we respond to members of the faith community or our family who may hold traditional or conservative views about LGBTQ+ issues?

7. For families who feel isolated in their religious communities because of their child’s identity, what would you say to them?

We found Rachel passionate and our conversation was spicy in all the best ways. We were fired up about the harm done to the Queer community by high-control religion and spoke about the best ways we can continue to change the narrative surrounding full affirmation and inclusion.

You can find Rachel here:

Website: selflovehealthyboundaries.com

Instagram: @selflovehealthyboundaries and @thankyouforranting

"Where did we ever get the notion that in order for children to behave better, they first have to feel worse?" 

Our episode this week is with Wendy Snyder, founder of Fresh Start Family, mom of two teens, podcaster and certified positive (or as she likes to call it), powerful parenting coach.

On this episode, we talk with Wendy about what it means to be an empowered parent and how can we parent out of compassionate connection and NOT fear and force.

We chat through these questions:

1.  What is your overall philosophy on parenting? Are there any core principles you always encourage parents to follow?

2. How has your faith journey shaped the way that you encourage parents in their parenting journeys? Are their old beliefs around parenting that you have let go of or that have evolved? 

3. What is one of the things that parents come to you the most about? 

4. What are the most common challenges parents come to you with? How do you help parents balance discipline with love and understanding?

5. What are some effective techniques for managing challenging behaviors? How can parents address negative behaviors while maintaining a positive relationship with their child?

We found Wendy full of surprises, wisdom, vulnerability and real passion as she shares her own journey to leaving behind parenting with fear and force and leaning into empowered, compassionate connection. She is a fierce advocate for doing parenting in a way that heals our own souls while meeting the needs of our kids. It's a must-listen if you want practical help, hope and humor in them middle of the mayhem of parenting. THIS IS A GOOD ONE!!

You can find Wendy here:

Website: freshstartfamilyonline.com

Instagram: @freshstartwendy

Facebook: Fresh Start Family

"In the end, Jesus proved that forgiveness is more powerful than punches and kicks.  And in the end, love wins over hate." - Jared Neusch and Connor Shram in their book: Jesus vs. the Bad Guys

Our episode this week is with two dads, one a corn hole champion and Biblical scholar (Dr. Jared Neusch) and the other a comedian and change-maker (Connor Shram), both authors of a new book perfect for this time of year, Jesus Vs. the Bad Guys: a Story of Love and Forgiveness.

On this episode, we talk with Jared and Connor about reconsidering the Easter story in light of active peace-making and non-violence.

We chat through these questions:

1. How do we introduce children to the person of Jesus without reinforcing the fear-based, dualistic messages many of us were taught in high-control religious environments? (We are thinking of good guys vs bad guys here) Do you believe there are good guys and bad guys?

2. Why does it feel important to you that kids have a love of Scripture? What is it about Scripture that feels valuable to you?

3. Can the stories of Jesus’ arrest, conviction, and crucifixion be shared with young children in age-appropriate ways that honor both their emotional development and spiritual curiosity?

4. Your book emphasizes Jesus’ “weapons” of forgiveness, peacemaking, nonviolence, and love—how might these values challenge the cultural parenting norms we inherited from high-control religious systems?

Jared and Connor were gentle, wise, funny and so easy to talk with. We didn't want the conversation to end. If you have the desire to reconsider Easter this year and perhaps discover new ways to engage with your kids and this very complicated story, this podcast episode is for you.

You can find Jared here:

Instagram: @jaredneusch

You can find Connor here:

Instagram: @connorshram

You don’t have to the answers to why Jesus died to talk about Easter with your kids. (Sarah Swartzendruber)

Our episode this week is with our resident Children's Pastor, childhood development expert, mom to two and Bible scholar, Sarah Swartzendruber.

On this episode, we talk with Sarah about reimagining the Easter story by diving into atonement theories and practical ways we can talk about it with our littles, middles and bigs.

We chat through these questions:

1. What's your current take on the Easter story? What do you personally believe?

2. What are the seven main atonement theories (reasons people believe Jesus died)?

3. What do we do about Easter and our kids? How can we navigate the complicated adult themes that the Easter story holds?

4. Can you share with us specific age appropriate ways we might be able to study the Easter story with our kids?

5. Are there themes or ideas that you stay away from when you’re teaching the Easter story?

6. How do we create an environment where our kids feel safe to ask hard questions and also encourage them to honor differing beliefs? 

Sarah is brilliant and funny, always a welcome guest at our podcast table. If you are struggling with how to celebrate (or NOT) Easter this year and what the heck to do with your kids and the messy, complicated themes surrounding it, this podcast episode is for you.

You can find the Sarah in these spaces:

Instagram: @parentingafterdeconstruction

Website: www.parentingafterdeconstuction.com

The worst thing we ever did is pretend God isn’t the easiest thing in this Universe available to every soul in every breath. (Chelan Harkin)

Our episode this week is with Chelan Harkin, mama to two and mystical poet extraordinaire.

On this episode, we talk with Chelan about growing up in the Baha'i faith, the courage it takes to question what you've been told all your life, how our faith can align with our soul and especially how this all fleshes out in our parenting.

We chat through these questions:

1. Your poetry invites readers to redefine traditional concepts of God and spirituality. How has your personal journey with spirituality influenced this mission, and what impact do you hope it has on your audience?

2. You once embarked on a 30-day “bad poem” experiment to break free from perfectionism. Can you talk about how that creative challenge helped you dismantle the rigid expectations imposed by high-control systems, religious or otherwise?

3. You have a poem that calls children "life’s great revolutionaries," challenging us to overturn our ingrained habits and expectations. Can you share an experience where your child’s unfiltered perspective radically shifted the way you view success and the meaning of life?

4. Your words remind us that children invite us to let go of our obsession with perfectionism and to instead embrace the beautiful mess of each moment. How has your child’s spontaneous, raw energy helped you see the sacred in everyday imperfection?

5. Rejecting a God of fear in favor of one who delights in joy—symbolized by putting extra whipped cream on things—your poem reimagines divinity as a source of wonder and playfulness. In what ways has your relationship with your child reshaped your understanding of faith and inspired you to live more joyfully?

We found Chelan to be gentle, authentic, and very in tune with her soul. We laughed a lot, talked about ice cream, and also took a deep dive into some difficult questions.

You can find Chelan here:

Instagram: @chelanharkin

Facebook: Chelan Harkin

With regard to the question, “Do you believe in God?” I do not care much about your answer. But if I were to ask the last five people with whom you’ve interacted if you were kind, about those answers I care very much. (Rabbi Brian Zachary Mayer)

Our episode this week is with Rabbi Brian Zachary Mayer, dad, author of the brilliant book, Highly Unorthodox Gospel, (also known as HUG), French Horn player and our very first Rabbi.

On this episode, we talk with rB (as he refers to himself) about all things related to kindness, compassion and love when it comes to our ever-evolving faith. 

We chat through these questions:

1. Tell us about the word “spiritualigiuos” on your website called “Religion Outside the Box.” We are so intrigued. Can you tell us what this means to you? How is it different from mainstream practice?

2. We love the title of your new book with the acronym HUG (not lost on us), Highly Unorthodox Gospel. What’s your gospel like and why is it highly unorthodox?

3. One of your reviews on the book said this:  “Hi rB, You had me at page fricking one!! I absolutely loved the book and couldn’t put it down. I finished it in one day. I am going to read it again and again. Loved the bacon cheese burger on matzah during Passover.” Can you just indulge us with this taste of what your book might be like for those who might be just a bit skeptical?

4. We are a parenting podcast. The themes of compassion, kindness, and love are central to the book. How can parents incorporate these values into their daily lives with their children that may be different than the way they might have grown up in high-control religion?  Why these three?

5. How do you think we can challenge the idea of "right and wrong", “black and white” , what we might deem as orthodoxy in our faiths while still raising children with values that matter?

6. In what ways can we nurture both our own spiritual growth and our children’s spiritual development in a world full of competing beliefs?

We found rB to be hilarious, genuine, knowledgable and humble. We laughed a lot and also dove deep into some difficult questions.

You can find rB here:

Websites: rabbibrian.com
rotb.org

Instagram: @rabbi_brian_af

Facebook: Rabbi Brian Zachary Mayer

Newsletter: https://rotb.org/subscribe/

Doubt is another word for imagination. (Liz Charlotte Grant)

Our episode this week is with Liz Charlotte Grant, mom, author of the new brilliant book, Knock at the Sky: Seeking God in Genesis After Losing Faith in the Bible, artist and lover of the Bible.

On this episode, we talk with Liz about all things related to seeking God through Scripture even as our faith continues to evolve. 

We chat through these questions:

1. What made you do a deep dive into Genesis specifically?

2. How do you continue to see Scripture as sacred even when you no longer believe in its literal interpretation?

3. What is a fresh way to read Genesis that moves beyond traditional interpretations and the culture wars?

4. The Old Testament is often the last part of the Bible that people come back to. What beauty and wisdom can we find in these books outside of this vengeful God that many of us have known? 

5. What does it look like to view the Bible as a work of art, and how can this perspective reshape our relationship with Scripture and faith?

6. What role has parenting played in your fresh way of viewing Scripture and the ways you’ve re structured your faith? 

7. In the process of examining and teasing out our beliefs, how can we teach our children that the seeking itself is the point, and that it’s okay to question sacred texts?

We found Liz to be funny, knowledgeable and ever-so-relatable. We laughed a lot and also dove deep into some difficult questions.

You can find Liz here:

Website: lizcharlotte.com

Instagram: @lizcharlottegrant

Facebook: Liz Charlotte Grant

Threads: @lizcharlottegrant

Substack: https://substack.com/@lizcharlotte

What we're learning is that God is comfortable with questions. In fact, our questions are often where God want to meet us. (Erin Hicks Moon)

Our episode this week is with Erin Hicks Moon, mom, author of the new brilliant book, I've Got Questions, Zac Efron apologist (it's a thing y'all), and self-proclaimed Bible-nerd.

On this episode, we talk with Erin about all things related to questioning, and why it's an necessary spiritual practice. Plus, we do find out more about why she has a obsession with Zac Efron, a reason to listen for sure.

We chat through these questions:

1. For parents who are deconstructing, how can we help our kids navigate their own faith journey when we’re still figuring out ours?

2. What is the spiritual practice of "having it out with God." How can we do that in a healthy, healing way, especially when dealing with a faith background that was once rigid and controlling?

3. You emphasize the power of lament and naming our pressure points in faith. What do you mean by lament and why does it matter so much when it comes to questioning God? And how does lament relate to naming our pressure points?

4. You use lots of humor as a way to cope and heal. How can we, as parents, incorporate humor or lightness into our own healing process when parenting feels so heavy due to past religious experiences?

5. You say that wrestling with God is part of the traditional Christian story, not a deviation from it. How can parents model a healthy wrestling with faith for their children, especially when they were taught to avoid questions in a high-control environment?

6. In your book, you offer a pathway to make peace with our past faith experiences. What practical steps would you recommend for parents to set new spiritual boundaries for their families, even if those steps take them outside traditional religious norms?

We found Erin to be smart, hilarious, and engaging, our conversation with her perfect for the times we find ourselves in on our ever-evolving faith and parenting journeys.

You can find Erin here:

Website: erinhmoon.com

Instagram: @erinhmoon

Substack: erinhmoon.substack.com

Licensed psychologist and author Dr. Camden Morgante joins us to explore the “middle path” from DBT and how it reshapes faith, nervous-system healing, sexuality, and parenting after high-control religion. We talk about spiritual bypassing versus true healing, pendulation in EMDR, setting wise boundaries, and cultivating a values-based sexual ethic. The middle path costs something. It also grows deep roots.

In this episode you’ll hear about

• What “walking the middle path” means and why both-and thinking is essential in deconstruction
• Signs your healing is taking hold: cognitive flexibility, compassion, curiosity, less shame
• Connection-based parenting and becoming a safe place for our kids
• Boundaries that honor your body when rooms feel polarizing
• Spiritual bypassing vs. embodied, grief-honoring faith
• EMDR’s pendulation and widening the window of tolerance
• Building a values-based sexual ethic after purity culture
• Letting healing be slow, playful, and non-linear

About our guest
Dr. Camden Morgante is a licensed psychologist, coach, speaker, and author of Recovering from Purity Culture. She writes the Substack Walking the Middle Path, helping readers practice both-and thinking in faith and life. She lives in Knoxville, TN with her family.

Connect with Dr. Camden

• Website: drcamden.com
• Substack: https://drcamden.substack.com/
• Socials: @drcamden
• Book: Recovering from Purity Culture 

"Purity culture presents a false dichotomy: restraint or chaos.  The real alternative?  Sexual empowerment - the freedom to experience intimacy on your own meaningful terms." (Joshua Harris)

Our episode this week is with Joshua Harris, former pastor and the author of I Kissed Dating Goodbye, released at the height of purity culture, and currently on an highly sacred, evolving spiritual path. Here's where he finds himself today: I used to have all the answers—chapter and verse. Now I’m happily uncertain and enjoying the wonder and mystery of life.

Purity culture is one of the most harmful ideologies that has invaded not only our bodies, but our minds and souls. We feel it's impact every day in our relationships and even in our parenting.

On this episode, we talk with Josh about his own journey as the promoter and victim of purity culture, his "fall from grace," the deep heartache that ensued, his own shifting journey towards healing and wholeness, and how all of that has played out in and with his family.

We answer these questions:

1. You’ve gone through a pretty public shift in how you view relationships and faith. How has your perspective on dating and marriage evolved since the release of I Kissed Dating Goodbye?

2. Reflecting on your journey from promoting purity culture to embracing a more open perspective, how do you now approach discussions about relationships and sexuality with your children, and what lessons have you learned that you wish you had known earlier?

3. Given the shifts in your personal and spiritual life, what has been the most significant lesson you've learned about grace, forgiveness, and transformation?

4. How have your faith shifts changed the way that you parent your own children, perhaps in other ways that are not directly associated with purity culture? 

5. If you could sit your kids down and tell them one thing to take on their life’s journey (with the caveat that they would listen to you), what would it be and why?

We found Josh to be wise, gentle, humble and the conversation with him much-needed and very much-appreciated. There was a palpable healing that took place as we were recording.

If you have been harmed by purity culture and want to take one step toward your own journey of uncovering it and recovering from it, this is a MUST-LISTEN!

You can find Joshua here:

Website: joshharris.com

Instagram: @harrisjosh

"When our faith shifts, sometimes stories that once felt magical like Christmas feel complicated. We can still feel empowered by the magical parts of the story while leaving room for age appropriate theology and curiosity with the story." (Sarah Swartzendruber)

Our episode this week is with Sarah Swartzendruber, Sarah is a mama, pastor, kid's faith curriculum creator (Zippee) and cohort leader for Parenting After Deconstruction.

Most of the parents who reach out to her know what they don't want to teach their kids, but they have no idea what they do want for their families. Sarah's passion is helping parents ind deconstruction create healthy spiritual practices for their kids that answer the question, "What now? How can we do this well?"

On this episode, we dive deep into the idea of reimagining Christmas in the ways we parent.

We answer these questions:

1. What does reimagining Christmas mean to you, and why might it be important for us?

2. How can we shift the focus of Christmas from tradition or obligation to something more meaningful and authentic?

3. How can parents involve their children in rethinking and co-creating new Christmas traditions that reflect their family’s evolving values?

4. How can families navigate grief or loss that might come with letting go of old traditions while creating space for new ones?

Sarah is brilliant, imaginative and funny, while at the same time, a kick-butt theologian who will help you to feel like you've got what it takes to walk this "tricky tightrope" in confidence and clarity, but mostly in compassion and curiosity. Don't miss out!

You can find the Sarah in these spaces:

Instagram:  @parentingafterdeconstruction

Website: www.parentingafterdeconstuction.com

"I’m writing the story Bible I wish to see in the world. Not just for my daughter, not just for girls, but for all kids. Because when it comes to the love of God, everyone belongs.” Mariko Clark

Our episode this week is with the author and illustrator of the new and wildly popular children's Bible story book, The Book of Belonging, Mariko Clark and Rachel Eleanor. Their passion to provide a resource for kids (and their parents) that is wildly inclusive, historically accurate and highly engaging has us buying copies left and right. Our conversation was filled with laughter, light, healing and even tears.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

• The inspiration for The Book of Belonging and how it is different from traditional Bible storybooks.
• Celebrating diversity within God’s people.
• The central message of belonging and how it might be a boots-on-the-ground word for love.
• The importance of the contemplative practices of mindfulness and wonder moments for us and our kids.
• Why featuring overlooked, female-centered stories is an essential for spriitual formation.
• Shaping a child’s sense of identity and understanding of belonging to God.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were sweatpants, safe harbor, poop, companioning, and of course, belonging. Find out why when you listen.

You can find the Book of Belonging at the following:

Website: thebookofbelonging.com

Substack: https://substack.com/@thebookofbelonging

Instagram: @marikoclark and @rachel.eleanor.art

"We never had certainty we just thought we did. We convinced ourselves we could absolutely be sure. Now we know the truth and the next step is to find peace in that uncertainty and maybe even be happy about it, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves." Marla Taviano in her new book “Whole” (with a nod to words by Rilke) 

Our episode this week is with Marla Taviano, the author of several books, some of our favorites being her trilogy of poetry called Unbelieve, Jaded, and Whole. Marla is into: books, love, justice, globes, anti-racism, blue, gray, rainbows, poems (and a hundred other things). She reads and writes for a living (and a life). She's a single mom to four freaking awesome grownish kids. And we especially love this: Marla is on a mission/ quest/ journey to live wholeFARTED (not a typo).

Some of the topics we explore are these:

• Being able to “find peace in the uncertainty” and “have patience with everything unresolved in your heart.”
• What makes her "FART?" (and find out what might make you FART as well.)
• The normal deconstruction process of unbelieving, becoming jaded and then moving toward wholeness.
• Poetry as an instrument of healing both for us and our kids.
• Navigating the ebb and flow while trying to parent and deconstruct at the same time.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were breathe, jaded, free, FART, certainty, unbelieve, embrace, whole. Find out why when you listen.

You can find Marla at the following:

Instagram: @marlataviano

Facebook: Marla Taviano

Website: itsmemarla.com

"Our fight is not against men but against the systems of imbalanced power that keep women and nonbinary people from flourishing in the fullness of our gifts and offering this world the best we have to offer.” Liz Cooledge Jenkins 

Our episode this week is with Liz Cooledge Jenkins, preacher, writer and author of the book, Nice Churchy Patriarchy. Liz has a gentleness, yet brilliance about her and this conversation couldn't have been more enlightening and engaging.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

• The definition of the Patriarchy and some insidious ways it has harmed both women, men and non-binary people.
• The different faces of misogyny.
• The systems of imbalanced power.
• Should we have a matriarchy?
• Supporting our kids in new belief systems while we are still wading through the toxic beliefs of our childhoods.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were swinging, rapper, imbalance, Stratego, flourishing and insidious. Find out why when you listen.

You can find Liz at the following:

Instagram: @lizcoolj and @postevangelicalprayers

Website: lizcooledgejenkins.com

“If I widen the lens and see this concept from a new perspective, then yes, I do matter. I do have purpose. I’ve just redefined my view of purpose. I’ve taken the pressure off. And I’ve started to find fulfillment, contentment, and gratification in small actions that matter." Sarah W. Bragg 

Our episode this week is with Sarah W. Bragg, mom of two teens, author of the new book, Is Everyone Happier Than Me?, and podcast host.

Sarah's humor, combined with her tenderness and strength, lends itself to an incredible conversation.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

• Where her spiritual journey falls into the thoughts that keep her up at night.
• Healthy boundaries with social media. Fostering connection without comparison.
• Building true connection with ourselves, especially if we have spent our lives being told that connection to self was unimportant or wrong.
• The role of play and pleasure in coming back to ourselves.
• Redefining purpose.
• What really matters?
• The valuable role of curiosity.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were pressure off, play, pleasure, edges, Real Housewives, and 3 am. Find out why when you listen.

You can find Sarah at the following:

Instagram: @sarahwbragg

Facebook: Sarah Washington Bragg

Website: sarahbragg.com

“Christian Nationalism is harmful to both Christianity and the country.” April Ajoy 

Our episode this week is with April Ajoy, author of the new book, Star-Spangled Jesus, former Christian Nationalist, podcast host and deconstructing mom of two.

April has a fierce passion to recover from the wounds of toxic Christianity and how it plays out in the political arena and to help others do the same. If you feel like you would like to understand more about exactly what Christian Nationalism is and learn more about the hope we still have in this volatile time in our history, this podcast episode is for you.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

• How Christian Nationalism began and why it's so dangerous.
• Why it's important to disentangle faith from politics.
• Advice for those of us who feel conflicted, but are afraid of the personal and social consequences of questioning our beliefs.
• How we prevent becoming what we’ve walked away from.
• Parenting through curious faith and the current political climate.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like demons, witchcraft, big tent, pressure off, loosely, empathy, Christian Nationalism, and liberate. Find out why when you listen.

You can find April at the following:

Instagram: @aprilajoy

Tiktok: @aprilajoy

“Your soul is waiting for you to say yes to it again.” Rachel Marie Martin 

Our episode this week is with Rachel Marie Martin, the ever-popular social media site called "Finding Joy."  She is the author of three books, the biological mom of seven, the bonus mom to four and the daughter of church planters.

Rachel has a fierce passion to be vulnerable and tell her story in all its "rawness."  Why is she so raw? Because that’s her heart and in sharing she hopes you too unearth and celebrate your own bravery, story and purpose.

If you feel like you have lost your "spark" or don't know if you are allowed to or find yourself unable to truly experience joy, this podcast episode is for you.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

• Rediscovering your spark, especially for those of us who feel lost or stuck in your own story.
  
  
• What a "soul map" is and how to create it.
  
  
• How we can get our spark backin the midst of wiping baby butts and driving kids all over creation.
  
  
• Wisdom for those who are just feeling so overwhelmed in their day-to-day.
  
  
• Helping our kids to love their own story and embrace who they are early on, perhaps fanning their “spark” so they never lose it.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "soul map" and "unstuck" and "brave"  "wondering." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Rachel at the following:

Website:  Finding Joy

Instagram: @finding_joy

Facebook:  Finding Joy

Body and spirit marry in the chapel of the soul. They marry every minute of every day, in all activities and in all inactivity, in all thoughts and in all actions, or they marry not at all. (If) They don’t marry, we do not know sexuality with soul, and therefore our sexuality remains incomplete and insufficiently human. We do not find the soul of sex by spiritualizing the body but by coming to appreciate its mysteries and by daring to enter into its sensuousness. --Thomas Moore

Our episode this week is with Dr. Kelly Edmiston, who erves as the Lead Pastor at the Vineyard Church in Stafford, Texas. She enjoys suburban life with her husband Ben, and their three children. Kelly's passion is the intersection between spirituality and sexuality and providing space for all people to learn to live free from shame.

If you have been harmed by purity culture, don't know what to do with yourself and your own sexuality or if you struggle with receiving pleasure and especially if you don't know how to broach the subject with your kids, this podcast episode is for you.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

• The harm of purity culture and why parents who are "deconstructing their faith" struggle to talk to their kids.
• Contemplative practices for kids of every age when it comes to the intertwining of the body and the soul.
• Why pleasure matters and how it can lead us to God.
• How parents can embody a "sex-positive" message.
• Difficult topics such as hookup culture, masturbation, pornography or sexual identity within the framework of spiritual sexuality.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "toenails" and "reparent" and "desire" and "practices" and "authority." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Kelly at the following:

Substack: Kelly Edminston

Instagram: @kmedmiston

Facebook: Kelly Michelle Edmiston

I found the freedom to take up space instead of trying to conform to a mold forged in the fire of the empire. The truth is that to become comfortable in my skin and with my scars, I had to leave a place where scars had to stay hidden. In the space of the wilderness, I learned to like all that was OTHER about me. And I hope you give yourself permission to like all that is OTHER about you, too.
Jenai Auman

Our episode this week is with Jenai Auman, a Filipina-American mom, author of the book, Othered, storyteller and artist. She lives in Houston, TX with her husband and two boys. Drawing from her years of church ministry experience, education, and trauma-related training, she writes on healing, hope and the way forward for those who have experienced spiritual abuse and religious trauma.

If you feel “othered” and unwelcome in traditional Christian spaces, this podcast episode is for you.

Some of the topics we explore are these:

• Marginalization within the church.
• How Jenai's personal journey as a biracial individual shaped her understanding of belonging and exclusion, both within the church and in broader society.
• How people who feel marginalized by the church can cultivate a sense of belonging within themselves, even when the community around them fails to provide it.
• How the journey toward self-belonging impacts the way we relate to others, especially those who may still be part of the religious institutions that caused harm.
• Wisdom for parents who want to guide their children through the process of finding or creating their own spiritual belonging.
• How to navigate the balance between teaching our children about faith and protecting them from the potential harm that can come from toxic religious environments
• Some practical ways to create a family culture that embraces belonging and inclusion.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "empire" and "safe" and "chosen" and "EMO Joanne Gaines." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Jenai at the following:

Website: jenaiauman.com

Instagram: @jenaiauman

Facebook: Jenai Auman

Threads: @jenaiauman

In this week’s episode, Lizz and Esther talk about the in-between—that blurry stretch between certainty and freedom. We talk about control and compassion, about nervous systems that don’t need theology as much as safety, and about finding community outside the old walls of church.

We don’t have tidy answers (we’ve tried those before).

But we do have a few anchors for the fog.

Anchors for the In-Between

When the old ways of praying, believing, or belonging don’t work anymore—start here:

• Tree time. Sit under one. Lean against it. Let your breath match its calm.
• Look up. Sky therapy. A reminder you’re part of something vast and kind.
• Cozy is sacred. Blankets, warm mugs, soft clothes—small acts of self-compassion that retrain your body to feel safe again.
• Medicine isn’t weakness. Sometimes your nervous system needs help to unclench. That’s healing, not failure.
• Rest ≠ avoidance. Rest is recovery. Avoidance is fear. The difference is compassion.

A Few Things We Said (and Meant)

“God isn’t controlling the universe like a puppet show. Love is still here, and it looks like presence.”
“Your body isn’t broken—it’s responding wisely to what’s been too much.”
“Use your low beams in the fog. Slow is holy.”

If You’re Here Right Now

If you’re not sure what you believe, or where you belong, or if any of this still counts as faith—welcome.

You’re not alone.
The fog is temporary.

And even here, you’re being held by something softer, wider, and more loving than fear ever was.

One purpose of healing is to be able to experience joy. Our subconscious seeks what is familiar. Joy without guilt is not familiar to many. (Chelsea Haines)

We start off Season Six (can you believe it?) with Chelsea Haines, otherwise known as @yourgutsygal and the founder of the Gut Health Agency. So many of you have asked "what do we do now" to move into a healthy and wholistic body/spiritual space, and if this is you, this podcast episode is for you.

On this episode, we explore the idea of healing our nervous system through our gut, but it's certainly not just our physical gut, but also our inner "gut" as it communicates with our souls. Some of the topics we explore are these:

• How our physical, emotional and spiritual are intertwined and why that's so important in our healing.
• How trauma as a result of high-control religion might produce chronic physical symptoms and how we can heal from that.
• Neuroplasticity and memory reconsolidation and how this might be key in our healing journeys.
• Why joy is so often paired with guilt and how we can work to experience pure joy in our lives.
• How all this plays out in our parenting journeys.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "energetic sponges" and "edges" and "random bombardment" and "" and "firm wall." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Chelsea at the following:

Website: theguthealthagency.com

Instagram: @yourgutsygal

We tend to look for answers outside ourselves. From books. Church. From friends or family. Even from society. We are called deeper, to sink down inside ourselves, where what we need is intertwined with what the Divine has to offer us. The place where we can trust and rest and then go and do. (Esther Goetz)

Our guest this week is our very own Esther Goetz. Esther is a deconstructing mama of four, an author and spiritual director, dedicated to helping you take your next step in the growth of your soul.

On this episode, we explore the very important idea of reclaiming our internal authority that was taken away from us by high-control religion, culture and even family systems.

We chat in depth about these ideas:

• The value of spiritual direction, what it is not and what it is.
• The difficulty of moving from external authority to internal authority. Some of the messages we’ve received in high-control religion.
• The importance of embarking on this journey to discover ourselves and take up the mantle of making decisions from a place of internal authority.
• Some practical tools for reclaiming our own internal authority.
• Taking the practices of spiritual direction and applying them to our parenting.
• Resources that Esther has for those who find themself parenting and in this ever-evolving faith journey.

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "companionship" and "connection" and "divine spark" and "holy listening" and "midwifery." Find out why when you listen.

LASTLY, we have a HUGE ANNOUNCEMENT at the end of the podcast about a resource that's coming up in the summer! WE ARE SO EXCITED ABOUT IT!

You can find Esther at the following:

Website: estherjoygoetz.com

Spiritual Direction: Heard and Held

Spiritual/Author Spaces:

Facebook:  Esther, the Dolly Mama
Instagram: @estherthedollymama

Moms of Big Kids:

Facebook: Moms of Bigs
Instagram: @momsofbigs

“We are meaning-making machines. Chaos is uncomfortable, and thinking that everything that happens to us is due to random chance feels cold and impersonal. The brain seeks out patterns and order when they are not necessarily present.” Sarah Henn Hayward

Our guest this week is Sarah Henn Hayward. Sarah is a mom of two, an author and our first self-proclaimed agnostic/atheist on the podcast. To say that our conversation was fascinating and enlightening would be an understatement.

On this episode, we explore these topics:

• Unpacking the realization that so much of our former faith was about control and distraction from the realities of life. We were looking for safety and consistency and a formula to explain all of life’s pain.
  
  
• Embracing the uncomfortable choas/mystery/the "I don't know"
  
  
• What happened when Sarah finally said the words "I don't believe in God" out loud
  
  
• Deconstructing faith when it leads to actual de-conversion or agnosticism/atheism
  
  
• Navigating parenting with a partner who is still believes in God.
  
  

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "mystery" and "wonder" and "peace" and "what if." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Sarah at the following:

Website: sarahhennhayward.com

Instagram:  @shaywardwrites

Facebook:  Sarah Henn Hayward

Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate. - Malynda Hale

Malynda Hale, mom, activist, singer, author and actress, is our guest this week. Malynda uses her voice through her music and social media presence as an educating activist to effect change within social justice, female empowerment, LGBTQ+ rights, the Black Lives Matter movement, Antisemitism and Progressive Christianity.

On this podcast episode, we dive deep into lots of that, but we also spend our time hashing out how to truly love ourselves and those around us, especially our kids. "It doesn't have to be complicated" was a theme that came up over and over again, something that felt like a balm to our over-busy and way-over-complicated lives.

We spent time chatting through these incredible questions:

1.  You are what you call a "progressive Christian. How would you define progressive christianity for yourself?

2. You use your platform to fight for the things that are important to you, which we really respect and love. What social justice issues do you feel aren’t getting the attention they deserve in the Church?

3. Your quote, "promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate," is powerful, and something that we strive for in our approach to deconstruction. How do you apply this to your life and why does it feel important to you?

4. We talk a lot about how our own journeys shift the ways that we relate to our kids. How does your work as an activist and artist spill over into your parenting?

5. Picture yourself sitting at your dinner table with your daughter. What would be your overarching message to her about God, faith and herself?

Our favorite words from this podcast episode were things like "normal" and "change" and "love" and "simple." Find out why when you listen.

You can find Malynda at the following:

Website: malyndahale.com

Instagram:  @malyndahale

Threads:  @malyndahale

P.S. There is one passion project that Malynda speaks about on the podcast that we want to highlight this week.  R.O.C ERA is a non profit organization that was founded with the hope to make the impossible, possible by serving our underprivileged children in black and brown communities.

They provide mentoring programs that curate experiences and expose them to programming that is not traditionally available to youth in impoverished communities. Programs that consist of visual and performing arts, fitness, nutrition, social and emotional skills.

The Church needs to be called out and take responsibility for the damage it has done to people. The survivors should be heard. So no, I don't always talk about the good. Because until the darkness is exposed, and more people are removed from power that absolutely should not be in it, I will not be quiet. - Amber Schultz

Amber Schultz, founder of Fundie Freed, a webcast devoted to telling religious trauma survivor stories, comes on the podcast as our guest this week. Amber is a single mama of three daughters and is highly passionate about breaking free from toxic religion and learning to love herself and others fully and without conditions.

On this podcast episode, we hear Amber's own story of survival, having freed herself from an abusive family and church, along with the intermingling of those harmful systems. Amber walks us through these very difficult and important questions:

1. You grew up in an abusive home, where silence and obedience were strictly enforced and you were kept under complete subjugation. Can you share with us, as you are comfortable, an example from your childhood that might give us deeper insight?
   
   
2. Once you gave yourself permission to seek therapy, what were some of the toxic theologies that you discovered were, as you’ve described them, “lies you’d been told?”  What’s been the hardest lie to unlearn?
   
   
3. You are learning to love yourself. Was there a specific “aha” moment or tool that has helps you to do this? (we all struggle here)
   
   
4. We love your platform and your YouTube channel, Fundie Freed. Why did you create this space?

We also talk loud and long about taking a different parenting path than the way Amber grew up and what key values she brings into her parenting as she navigates her life as a single mom with three girls. These are powerful and have to do with purity culture, bodily autonomy, emotional health and creating a safe space.

You will be both heart-broken and filled with all kinds of hope as you listen to this episode. We hope you join in.

You can find Amber at the following:

Youtube: youtube.com/@fundiefreed

Facebook: Fundie Freed 

Instagram:  @fundiefreed

Deconstruction invites us to become really honest about what we believe, why we hold those beliefs sacred, how they influence the way we relate to our creator, and who is actually served by our beliefs. If we trust the process enough to lower our walls and honestly engage with our questions, deconstruction promises to reveal undiscovered bias, limiting beliefs, and any flawed doctrines that actively harm people. - Angela J. Herrrington

Back for round two, Angela J. Herrington, comes on the podcast as our guest this week. We are doubly-thrilled to have her back! Angela is a deconstructing mama to five kiddos, a deconstruction coach and as of late, an author to a brand-new book!

Whether you are deconstructing due to curiosity, uncertainty, or a compelling inner voice, Angela helps you explore the deeply personal journey of faith deconstruction compassionately and without judgment. Together, the two of you will slog through the uncertainties and complexities of faith deconstruction. Laughing, crying, and raging against the toxic religious machine together.

On this podcast episode, we find out why Angela is so passion about writing her new book Deconstructing your Faith without Losing Yourself and especially tackle these questions:

1. Is deconstruction a trend? Why or why not?

2. How do we navigate deconstruction without losing what feels like our core selves?

3. What tools are there to sort through our ideas and beliefs and why is a sense of autonomy/internal authority so important in this process?

4. How do we navigate the resentments that we might still hold for our old church, family members, belief systems? 

We also discover what hope there is for our kids as we navigate a shifting and evolving faith, especially perhaps the importance of a relationship with themselves, so vital and different than perhaps the way we grew up.

Angela is feisty and fantastic (if we say so ourselves). You will find yourself nodding along and saying lots of "me toos" and "amens" (if that's even still allowed - winky face).

You can find Angela at the following:

Website:  www.angelajherriington.com

Facebook: Angela J Herrington

The Faith Deconstruction Cafe 

Instagram:  @angelajherrington

Pinterest:  @angelajherrington

X:  @angherrington

Linked In: Angela J Herrington

YouTube:  Angela J Herrington

The question we need to ask is this one: Am I being pushed by fear or led by love?  (Emily P. Freeman)

We are absolutely thrilled to have Emily P. Freeman join us on the podcast this week. Emily is a New York Times best-selling author, a mom to three, a spiritual director and podcast hostess.

Her most important work is to help create soul space and offer spiritual companionship and discernment for anyone struggling with decision fatigue and trying to make a life in the process.

Emily vulnerably speaks about her own spiritual journey and we walked through ways we can be pushed by fear instead of led by love and perhaps how to flip the narrative in our own life when it comes to making hard decisions, especially in the transitional space of walking out of and into the various "rooms" in our lives: faith communities, seasons, jobs, and so many more.

She allows us a behind-the-scenes look into her own very difficult decision to walk out of the "room" of the church she and her family were an integral part of and all the emotions surrounding it: grief and relief to name just two. She guides into understanding how leaving something as important to her as church helped us to hold onto her very important faith.

Our favorite part of the podcast was two-fold: when we discover why it's so essential to be your own friend during times of transition, especially during an evolving faith journey, and also how Emily has navigated walking in and out of many different spiritual "rooms" while in the throes of raising her three children.

This episode will be a balm to your spiritual soul, a respite in the rush of life and give room for you to take a long, slow, deep breath

You can find Emily at the following:

Instagram:  @emilypfreeman
Website:  www.emilypfreeman.com
Podcast:  The Next Right Thing

I want to be a voice for the invisibles.  (Leslie Nease)

What do a Survivor contestant, deconstructing mama of four bigs, former Christian radio broadcaster, life and faith transitions coach, author and newly-minted podcast hostess have in common?  They are all named Leslie Nease, our podcast guest this week.

Leslie is quick-witted, well-spoken and passionate about coming alongside of people in their ever-evolving spiritual journeys and making sure they feel seen, heard and absolutely not alone.  She wants to make the "invisibles" (those of us who are afraid of speaking out about our deconstructing journey for whatever reason) find our voice again, the way she has found her own.

On this episode, we explore all the ways we have been shut down, silenced, or spiritually bypassed and discover why it's so important that we discover who we are and why our stories matter (and why it's good that we begin to tell them).

Leslie also gives us some really good tips about what's at the root of having a long-term, healthy relationship with your kids, especially one that has ridden all the religious and spiritual rollercoasters that come along with deconstructing toxic faith systems.

This one is a goodie, if we say so ourselves.

You can find Leslie at the following:

Instagram:  @leslienease

Website:  www.leslieneasecoaching.com

Podcast:  Honoring the Journey

*trigger warning*

“My passion is to have a kinder and gentler world for our little people in faith spaces.” (Matt Shantz)

Meet Matt Shantz, husband, dad, social worker in child and adolescent mental health, and spiritual mentor. Matt is our podcast guest this week and we are so grateful to have had one of the most complicated, difficult and needed conversations we've had on the podcast to date.

This week, we tackle the subject of spanking and we do so in a way that will be informative and passionate, full of stories and science, but also allow room for both the heartbreak and hope.

We discuss the trauma of spanking in all categories: physical, spiritual, emotional, relational and even sexual.

We share stories (even our own) of harm and also of repair and touch on the way our view of God might be behind how we view the healthy "discipline" of our kids.

We chat in depth about the research surrounding spanking, what it says and perhaps why the "Christian church" has been at odds with what's been found (i.e., why do many high-control religions deem spanking as necessary discipline?).

Lastly, we move into a posture of hope for a kinder and gentler future. What can we do instead of resort to violence with our kids? Why is that so important? How can we repair our relationships with ourselves and our kids when we blow it? What should we do if we've been either the victim of spanking or the perpetrator of it?

We are so incredibly grateful to Matt for his transparency, vulnerability and passion when it comes to this subject and also recognize that this might be incredibly difficult for some of you to listen to for a host of reasons.

It's why we are so glad there is someone like Matt who provides spiritual care and mentorship for wholeness, embracing a client-centered and compassionate approach. Matt's focus is on integrating and supporting spirituality, nurturing emotional wellness, respecting individual beliefs and experiences. Through active listening and non-judgmental guidance, Matt hopes to empower individuals to find meaning, strength, faith and hope.

You can find his good work at the following:

Website: mattshantz.org

Instagram: @shantzmatt

I’m trying to be in alignment with what I understand what the true principles of love to actually be. (Stephanie Stalvey)

The passionate and kind Stephanie Stalvey is our guest this week on the podcast. Stephanie is a deconstructing mama of one, high school art teacher, and painter writer and comic book artist extraordinaire. She loves music and animals and going to the beach when its cold.

She's  been irresistibly drawn to making comics since she was a kid. Comics are intimate, they are rock and roll, they’re visual prose that gives both the writer and reader a highly personal experience of the story.

She's currently  working on a long form memoir that focuses on her experiences as a mother, a lover, and 90s church kid.  In her work, she reflects on coming of age inside the evangelical church and her subsequent reckoning with religious and spiritual ideas as an adult.

On this episode, just like in her comics, you will hear Stephanie's portrait of a continual pursuit to understand herself, her ideological inheritance, her relationships,  her God, and her place in this wild, strange, sacred world we all share.

You can find the Stephanie in these spaces:

Instagram:  @stephanie.stalvey.artist

Website:  www.stephaniestalvey.com

Patreon Community: www.patreon.com/stephaniestalvey

We sat down with Shelly Robinson, founder of Raising Yourself, for a conversation about parenting on two levels at once. It’s packed with wisdom, humor, humility, and practical tools for those messy moments when your nervous system wants to hijack the show.

👇 Here’s what you’ll find inside 👇

Certified wellness coach and Raising Yourself founder Shelly Robinson returns to talk about parenting the child in front of us and the one still healing inside of us—inner-child work, humility, co-regulation, boundaries, hormones, rest, and why compassionate presence often beats any script.

Sometimes the hardest part of parenting is caring for two children at once — the one in front of us, and the one still healing inside us. In this rich conversation, Shelly Robinson shares how a single “record-scratch” moment shifted her away from fear-based faith and toward reparenting, and how that choice keeps shaping her teens-and-tweens season. We get practical about nervous-system tools in the heat of the moment (“I am safe,” “I want to feel good on the other side of this”), the slow work of tending what gets stirred at each developmental stage, and how sleep, movement, friendship, and boundaries change the energy we bring to our kids. We also name the role of perimenopause, chronic pain, and doomscrolling and why “no wonder” and “that’s fair” are underrated phrases of compassion.

You can find Shelly in these spaces:

www.shellyrobinson.com

Helping Parents Raise Themselves - Raising Yourself
Explore Shelly Robinson's unique approach to Reparenting, Gentle and Conscious Parenting. Empower your family journey with insightful resources, expert guidance, and transformative parenting tools. Join the Raising Yourself movement for transformative parenting insights and nurturing a compassionate parenting culture.

Instagram: @raisingyourself

Facebook: Shelly Robinson - Raising Yourself

“God is like a fort, strong and secure with walls that are mighty and safe. Inside, there are hidden places to hold you when you’re scared or need a quiet place to rest.” What is God Like (Matthew Paul Turner & Rachel Held Evans)

The spunky and amazing Matthew Paul Turner is our guest this week on the podcast. Matthew is a dad of three, New York Time's best-selling children's author, and accomplished photographer and journalist.

Matthew's fiery, yet gentle spirit and his passion to help others belong to and be completely themselves and to understand the unconditional love of God is contagious.

On this episode, you will hear wild stories of burning Barbies and tears in parking lots, guns hidden in pulpits and unforeseen joy and healing. Matthew speaks of his long journey into deconstructing his faith, how his gift of writing children's books unfolded, and the gift of belonging that he has given to himself and now is pouring into others, especially his children.

You will find yourself laughing and crying all within moments of each other as you listen, but mostly you will find yourself, period.

Don't miss out!

You can find the Matthew in these spaces:

Instagram:  @matthewpaulturner

Facebook:  @matthewpaulturner

Website:  www.matthewpaulturner.com

Substack: @matthewpaulturner

“You aren't going to mess up your kids' theology." (Sarah Swartzendruber)
 
The brilliant Sarah Swartzendruber is our guest this week on the podcast. Sarah is a mama, pastor, kid's faith curriculum creator (Zippee) and cohort leader for Parenting After Deconstruction. 

Most of the parents who reach out to her know what they don't want to teach their kids, but they have no idea what they do want for their families. Sarah's passion is helping parents in deconstruction create healthy spiritual practices for their kids that answer the question, "What now? How can we do this well?"

On this episode, we unpack the "tricky tightrope" of sorting through our own faith and spirituality while trying to raise our kids and Sarah works to empower us with the freedom to reimagine what parenting our kids with a healthy spirituality might look like. We also chat about where to start when it comes to what we pass along to our kids and you might be surprised, not surprised. We answer these three questions:

1. We said it in our intro, your quote, “You aren’t going to mess up your kids’ theology.” But what if we feel like we will and we are?

2. How do we unwind our own fears from how we interact with our children and their faith journey?

3. What are some ways that we can meet our kids in their curiosity about God, heaven, Jesus, etc.

Sarah is brilliant, imaginative and funny, while at the same time, a kick-butt theologian who will help you to feel like you've got what it takes to walk this "tricky tightrope" in confidence and clarity, but mostly in compassion and curiosity. Don't miss out!

You can find the Sarah in these spaces:

Instagram: @parentingafterdeconstruction

Website: www.parentingafterdeconstuction.com 

“Self-discovery is the goal. Self-compassion is the vibe." (Trisha Wilkerson)

We start off Season Five with Trisha Wilkerson as our guest this week on the podcast. And it's really good! Trisha is a deconstructing mama, author, former pastor's wife turned certified Nutrition Coach. She works with individuals and groups, guiding a behavioral change process towards increasing overall wellness. Her style is wholeheartedness, with curiosity and gentle challenges.

Trisha's journey in Transformation, Healing, and Holistic Wellness began in the Church, where she learned to listen and love. 25 years in the Evangelical Church taught me much about walking with brokenness and pain and learning how to heal. She learned how to lead people, counsel, write, and coach.

But along the way, she began to discover uncomfortable truths about extreme religion and the trauma that results from the disconnection from our bodies and, in all honesty, disconnection from ourselves. She also researched the way diet culture and extreme religion are intertwined and how we can untangle the harmful messages of judgment and shame and move into a space of compassionate curiosity and deep connection with our bodies.

On this episode, our fascinating conversation leads us into the murky waters of diet culture and how extreme religion was the perfect space for all the harmful messages surrounding the body and the constant striving for perfection. We also discover new ways of engaging with food, our "already good" bodies and the recovery of souls along the way. This time around, we find out, not what we need to be teaching our kids about faith, God and themselves, but what what they have to teach us.

Trisha is kind, gentle and passionate and views journeying with others now as such an adventure– with not one destination! Embracing mystery has emboldened her to be curious and love people with more gentleness and dignity. Advocating for people has meant that she step into their stories with them and together seek change for their individual growth and healing.

And pretty soon, she will have a book out called "Already Good" How Diet Culture and Religion Exploit Our Desires For Worthiness. Not sure about you, but we can't wait to get it.

You can find the Trisha in these spaces:

Instagram: @trisharwilkerson

Website (her Wellness Coaching practice): www.trishawilkerson.com

“Chronic trauma can overwhelm our internal coping resources. Trauma disrupts the same system that regulates our body’s stress response causing a hyperactive fight-or-flight reaction. It’s not just all in our head. It’s in our bodies too. (Brittany Moses)

 Guess what??? The guests on our podcasts this week are...drum roll please... us.

We are closing out Season Four with a conversation with just the two of us.

We dive deep into THE STRUGGLE to heal our spiritual trauma and how our bodies have suffered and how reconnecting with our them is a messy, but necessary and beautiful business and vital to our overall journey to heal. The struggle is real, friends. Truly.

We even chat about hell and Christmas and how we are finding ways to resist (both internally and externally) the messages we've received about those two things, plus a whole bunch of others.

We love having our podcast and we are so grateful that you would take the time to listen. We will be back with a full and amazing line-up in just three months.

You can find the two of us at the following spaces: 

LIZZ ENNS PETTERS:

Instagram: @lizzennspetters
Facebook: Lizz Enns Petters, the Deconstructed Mama
Website: elizabethpetters.com

ESTHER JOY GOETZ:

Instagram: @estherthedollymama
Facebook: Esther, the Dolly Mama
Website: estherjoygoetz.com

“Admitting we could be wrong about the things we are most convinced of, that are so fundamental to who we are, is painful and becoming someone new is scary.” (an excerpt from Godbreathed, Zack Hunt)

Zack Hunt (sometimes known as Zaack Hunt around the internet, a deconstructing dad, former pastor, prolific author and BBQ magician extraordinaire, is our guest this week. 

Zack has spent the last decade writing about the interplay of faith and politics and when not doing that good work, he can be found traveling and trying out new restaurants with his wife, playing with their two little girls, and sneaking out onto his back porch trying to smoke the perfect rack of ribs on his beloved smoker.

After we dive into Zack's never-ending and evolving faith journey, we dive into the space of how he got to the place of "I might be wrong," and where that wild idea that has taken him.

We speak about all kinds of fancy theological terms like exegesis and "sola scriptura," but in the end of the day, we share stories about fear and grief and walking this very nuanced and difficult road of parenting in this new found space and how LOVE is the beginning and end of the story.

Zack's humor will have you laughing and his vulnerability will have you crying.  And you will find out why it matter so much that we are all God-breathed. Plus, you will find out why the heck most of his internet spaces are Zaack.  Listen in.

You can find Za(a)ck at the following spaces:

Instagram:  @zaackhunt
Facebook:  Zack Hunt (but if you are searching, look for @zaackhunt)
Twitter (not X according to Zack):  @zaackhunt
Website:   zackhunt.net 

“My love, God is here when you choose goodness and are living from your heart. When you follow the path of love, God is with you from the start. And God is there when you mess up, if you make a choice that isn’t best. It  doesn’t mean you’re bad; it just means you’re human-like all the rest.” (an excerpt from My Love, God is Everywhere)

Victoria Robb Powers and Cameron Vickrey, also known as the Reverend Mamas, are our guests this week on the podcast.  Victoria is the Senior Pastor at Royal Lane Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas, and is the first female to pastor a Baptist church in the DFW Metroplex. She is a graduate of Baylor University and Brite Divinity School at TCU in Fort Worth. Victoria lives with her husband and three children in Lake Highlands. She loves to read, write, preach and teach.

Cameron  is a graduate of Furman University and Wake Forest University School of Divinity. She currently works for Fellowship Southwest, sharing stories of ministry and mission along the US--Mexico border and advocating for migrants. She is also passionate about public education, and co-founded a nonprofit called RootEd, galvanizing parents of public school children to tell their stories and become advocates. Cameron lives in San Antonio with her family. Her free time is spent with her kids; wishing she were a gardener; teaching Sunday school to middle schoolers, and reading lots of books.

On this episode, our conversation leads us to the deep questions of life and especially from kids about who God is and where God is and when God is.  We chat about subjects from soap operas and healthy theology to original sin vs original blessing to how reparenting ourselves while we parent our own kids is deeply healing.

Their children's book, My Love, God is Everywhere, is a new favorite of ours and both Lizz and Esther have experienced its healing nature for us as grown ups (I think they both use it devotionally) and also the beautiful message it has for our kids.

At one point in the episode, which you have to listen to find out, both Lizz and Esther had their pens out frantically writing something down that changed their perspectives forever.

If you want to make room for your own child-like soul to breathe and heal, this is a must-listen to episode. Like seriously, folks.

You can find the Reverend Mamas and their book in these spaces:

Instagram:  @thereverendmamas

More about Their Book:  My Love, God is Everywhere
 

"I would hope never to feel so confident in my theology as not to be willing to correct a wrong view once presented with compelling evidence." Chad Bahl (Deconstructing Hell)

Chad Bahl is our podcast guest this week. Chad is a theologian, step-dad and author. Chad is also a kind, humble, deep, brilliant soul who is on a personal mission to seek the whole truth no matter what the cost.

On this episode, after we find out one of Chad's fun and super unique hobbies and his surprising day job, we take a deep dive into Open and Relationship Theology (think and un-controlling, loving and co-partnering kind of God), the problem of evil, but mostly the horrific and toxic theology over Eternal Conscious Torment (otherwise known as Hell as many of us grew up understanding it).

We also talk about our the book that Chad compiled and edited that Lizz and Esther had a chance to be a part of called Deconstructing Hell and how each one of us got to the place where, as we like to say in these parts, "hell is OFF the table." And then, especially how this "hell" thing plays out in parenting (hint, it's awful).

This conversation will pretty much get you thinking out of the box and free you from that box that has kept you afraid and small. Because, being pushed by fear is terrible, but being led by love is something entirely beautiful.

You can find Chad in these spaces:

Facebook:  Chad Bahl

Facebook Group:  Deconstructing Hell

Instagram:  @bahlchad

Website:   thelaytheologian.com

“In a time when we love to keep ourselves separated from one another with our ideologies and beliefs, liminality asks how we exist in those in between spaces.” - Kaitlin Curtis (Living Resistance)

Kaitlin Curtice is our podcast guest this week. Kaitlin is an award-winning author, poet-storyteller, and public speaker. As an enrolled citizen of the Potawatomi nation, Kaitlin writes on the intersections of spirituality and identity and how that shifts throughout our lives.She also speaks on these topics to diverse audiences who are interested in truth-telling and healing.

As an inter-spiritual advocate, Kaitlin participates in conversations on topics such as colonialism in faith communities, and she has spoken at many conferences on the importance of inter-faith relationships.

On this episode, we find out what Kaitlin means by liminal space and why it is such an important part of our spiritual journey. This fascinating discussion leads us into ways we can engage in the unknown, wilderness of deconstructing and parenting.

We also chat about Kaitlin's new children's book, Winter's Gifts, the tale of a young Potawatomi girl named Dani whose family celebrates the darkest season of the year by treasuring the slowness that winter brings to our families.

If you struggle with winter and want to you allow yourself to experience the gifts of the season that might seem bleak and hopeless, this episode is exactly what you need to hear. We sure did.

You can find Kaitlin in these spaces:

Instagram:  @kaitlincurtice

Facebook:  Kaitlin B. Curtice

Website:   kaitlincurtice.com

“Following Jesus out of the entanglements of Christian supremacy and white supremacy are deep convictions. We believe God desires so much more from the Church than the frequently empty religiosity and hypocrisy we have become adjusted to.”  --Dr. Drew Hart

Dr. Drew Hart, black activist, racial reconciliation expert, biblical studies professor and father of three boys, is our guest this week. Drew is the author of Trouble I've Seen and Who Will Be A Witness. Following Jesus out of the entanglements of Christian supremacy and white supremacy are deep convictions of Drew. He believes God desires so much more from the Church than the frequently empty religiosity and hypocrisy we have become adjusted to. When we begin to envision God’s dream for us together, we can strive for the flourishing of all people by doing justice and the things that make for peace.

On this episode, we talk with Drew about his unique story being raised in a black evangelical church in a diverse suburb of Philadelphia and what happened to him upon going to a mostly white Christian college. What happened and why did that change the course of his life forever?

We also unpack what it means to have true solidarity with those who are marginalized and oppressed and how we, as the privileged, can begin the work in our own hearts and in the lives of our children.

This episode is chock-full of goodness and it is definitely one that you do not want to miss. Especially if racial reconciliation feels overwhelming and you don't know where to start.

You can find Drew in these spaces:

Instagram:  @druhart

Facebook:  Drew G.I. Hart

Website:   drewgihart.com 

Kyndall Rae Rothaus, a preacher, poet, feminist theologian, spiritual director, and preaching coach, is our guest this week.  She is the author of Thy Queendom Come: Breaking Free from Patriarchy to Save Your Soul (2021) and Preacher Breath (2015). She is the co-founder and Executive Director of Nevertheless She Preached, a national, ecumenical preaching conference designed to elevate the voices of womxn on the margins and the founder of the Soul of Preaching Project.

Kyndall is a sought-after public speaker whose piercing insights into the human spiritual condition are delivered with poetic and rhetorical brilliance. She is an award-winning preacher and spoken word artist. Kyndall spent eight years as a Senior Pastor in Baptist churches in Texas, where, among other things, she left a legacy of fighting for LGBTQ+ inclusion in the church before leaving institutional church work to start her own business working with individuals to heal from religious trauma and re-imagine their spirituality. Kyndall is a queer woman and the single mom of two adopted children who are the biggest joys of her life.

On this episode, we uncover the big ideas behind the "Queendom of God" and also why being queer provides one beautiful way to move from being constrictive to a life that's expansive. Kyndall also talks about how hard and holy being a single, queer mom of two adoptive little girls is and the overarching message she wants these two beautiful souls to know in their bones.

Kyndall is passionate and tender, knowledgeable and compassionate. She has a deep respect, awe, and curiosity towards those who come across her path and her work as a spiritual director is to bear compassionate witness to the depths of others' lives, and, where appropriate, call forth the transformation their soul is in the process of birthing themselves.

This episode will have you nodding your head, feeling seen, and brimming with hope for your deconstructing future.

You can find Kyndall in these spaces:

Instagram:  @kyndallraerothaus

Facebook:  Kyndall Rae Rothaus, Author

Website:   kyndallraerothaus.com 

In this week’s episode, we dive straight into the heart of fear-based parenting — where it comes from, how it still shows up, and how we begin to choose something different. We ask ourselves the questions we wish someone had asked us years ago:

• What were we taught — explicitly or implicitly — about what made someone a “godly” or “good” parent?
• How did those teachings shape how we viewed our kids — and how responsible we felt for their behavior, beliefs, or choices?
• Can we name a moment when fear was running the show — and how we see that moment differently now?
• What helped loosen fear’s grip? Was it a single turning point or a slow, patient unraveling?
• What does it look like, in this season, to choose connection over control?
• What fear still lingers — and how do we hold it with compassion now?
• And if we could write a permission slip to our past selves, what would it say about parenting with love instead of fear?

We talk about the messages that shaped us — hell, rapture, sin, “God’s will,” belonging — and how they continue to whisper in the background of our parenting. And we explore what it means to parent our kids with radical trust and unconditional love, even when the old scripts want to pull us back into fear.

👇 Here’s what you’ll find inside 👇

• Real stories of moments when fear tried to take over — and what choosing love looked like instead.
• Honest reflections on untangling our worth (and our kids’ worth) from their behavior.
• Practical ways to pause, breathe, and lead with love when control feels easier.
• Permission to rewrite the story — for ourselves and for the generations coming after us.

This Week on the Podcast:

Dr. Glenn Siepert, a deconstructing dad, former pastor, author and podcast host of the What If Project, is our guest this week.Glenn creates a safe space for people to explore this idea: What if there are ways of thinking about God and faith that are different than what our traditions have handed us? .

On this episode, we ask a big What If question: what do we do with our grief during deconstruction? What if there are ways of thinking about and approaching grief than what our traditions have handed us?  What if the grief process can be very different and can be more healing and whole? What do we do now that we don't necessarily have the certainty about the afterlife that we once had?  And how does this work out in our parenting?

Glenn is a kind-hearted, brilliant, and passionate soul who has walked the journey of grief, due to the recent death of his dad, and shares vulnerably with us in a way that will make you feel heard and held, and will give you some tools when you find yourself walking the path of loss.

You can find Glenn at the following spaces:

Instagram:  @what1fproject

Facebook:  What If Project

Tiktok:  @whatifproject

Website:   whatifproject.net 

Tara Teng, an Embodiment Coach who works in the intersections of spirituality and sexuality, is our guest this week. Tara helps people find their way back to their bodies, overcome shame, heal trauma and dismantle purity culture in a way that is in alignment with their values and beliefs so that they can build a healthy, sexual ethic and thrive in freedom and wholeness.

On this episode, we explore the ways we have been separated from our bodies and consequently from each other and why that is so damaging to us.

We also venture into what we can do now to become fully embodied so that we can heal and also how this works in the tricky tightrope of parenting and deconstructing and ways we can encourage embodiment in our kids.

Tara, like Esther, is an Enneagram Eight and her passion for restoration and justice is empowering and enlightening. When you listen, her fierce tenderness will awaken your heart and it perhaps ignite a fire inside your soul. It sure did for us!

You can find Tara at the following spaces:

Instagram:  @misstarateng
Facebook:  Tara Teng
Website:   www.tarateng.com 

Ericka Graham, freelance pastor and Bible-nerd extraordinaire, mama to two littles, recovering 12-stepper, and podcast hostess, is our guest this week.  Ericka has a passion for reframing the Bible to be a source of life and healing and spreading that word far and wide.

On this episode, we dive deep into the hard spaces of OCD manifested in scrupulosity, drug addiction and herky-jerky recovery and the ways that the Bible has been used to harm others.

We also lean into the hopeful ideas of radically loving ourselves, fighting for our healing and how Scripture can have a beautiful role in these when we come at it with a different posture.  And to boot, how important this all is in parenting!

Talking with Ericka was like having lunch with a wise and vulnerable friend and also a nerdy and brilliant theologian.  It's a magical combination that you don't want to miss!!

You can find Ericka at the following spaces:

Instagram:  @mrserickagraham

Podcast:   Curiosly with Ericka Graham 

Dr. Eric Seibert, Old Testament scholar and professor, dad of tweens and teens, prolific author and Minecraft guru, (yes, you read that right) is our guest this week. Eric is passionate against churchce sanctioned violenebecause he is troubled by how much violence Christians condone and sometimes participate in. I do NOT believe this is what God intended," he says (with a little bit of umph in his voice).

On this episode, we unpack why it's incredibly harmful to believe that God is a violent, but also supposedly loving God. Where does the notion come from? And why? Eric unpacks why violence is completely antithetical to love and has no part in the Christian faith.

We also dive deep into the subject of Hell as eternal conscious torment and if and how Scripture approaches this subject and why the notion of hell contributes to a more controlling, violent parenting model vs. an un-controlling, self-giving model, perhaps even informing how we might discipline our children. We actually tackle the subject of spanking. 

When we spoke with Eric, it felt warm and inviting, yet somehow, provocative and motivational. Eric embodies non-violence in his being, yet makes room for a gentle strength that calls us to think in a way perhaps unknown to us before.

You can find Eric's books at his author page on Amazon here:

Dr. Eric Seibert