Customer Confidential: Untold Stories of Earned Growth – Details, episodes & analysis

Episode 259: How do you prevent first-trip hassles such as a room not being ready at check-in, Wi-Fi outages, or service delays from discouraging first-time customers from returning?

Today's guest, Rachel Bicking, EVP of Innovation at Kobie Marketing, says that after a slightly negative first trip, customers are 80% less likely to return. Kobie—a technology platform that builds and runs rewards and loyalty programs—is solving this. They use a "journey atlas" to read social signals, spot subtle first-trip frictions, and then trigger targeted offers or fixes. They model lift and rewards liability so that investment can follow behavior change. Journey maps freeze a tense customer moment. A live atlas shows where small failures block the next purchase and coordinates fixes across channels.

Inside the business, spending becomes about precision. Simulators forecast lift, break-even, and profit impact by segment and moment, so finance are able to see trade-offs before money moves. The payoff? Practical programs that grow trips, expand categories, and raise lifetime value.

Guest: Rachel Bicking, EVP of Innovation, Kobie Marketing

Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company

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Time-Stamped Topics:

• [00:03] First-trip friction that kills repeat purchases, with examples and fixes
• [00:10] Personalization that simplifies the customer experience
• [00:12] Emotional Loyalty Scoring, habit, status, and reciprocity
• [00:21] Coordinating recovery across store, app, and site for the same customer
• [00:23] Using precision to avoid incentivizing the wrong customer base
• [00:27] Designing redemptions to expand baskets, categories, and trip frequency
• [00:31] Accounting for redemption cost and liability without derailing good decisions
• [00:34] Using simulators to forecast lift and break-even before spending a dollar
• [00:36] The moment modeling convinces finance to reallocate the budget

Time-Stamped Quotes:

• 00:05 — "What we're trying to do at scale is identify those moments that matter and those micro-moments that then lead to a negative or positive experience. Because we want to amplify the positives and we want to make sure that we intercept the negative ones."
• 00:07 — "I think there's been a broader inclination to say, 'Hey, if it's below a certain amount, people don't care.' And this is where personalization becomes really important. If I get delayed checking into my hotel room and I have to go to the next meeting and I don't have time to put my stuff down, ten minutes matters."
• 00:08 —  "Data-wise, we're always trying to break down customers' interactions [and] rewards into a series of metadata, into a series of features, so that we can make them more explainable at scale."
• 00:13 — "If personalization is done well, the experience from a customer perspective should be very simple. It should be guided. It should be deliberate."

Episode 258: How did two new leaders turn angry customer calls into executive promises to earn customer trust and advocacy? 

Charlon McIntosh, Chief Customer Operations Officer, and Melissa Pint, Chief Digital Information Officer, both joined Frontier Communications on the same day in 2021. 

At the time, Frontier faced both bankruptcy and a reputation crisis: Millions of customer complaint calls were pouring in, with only one way to reach the company. Charlon and Melissa inherited a brand that customers didn't trust. To fix it, they built a system where complaints trigger commitments, leaders face weekly scrutiny, and new product and feature launches aren't approved until they are absolutely ready.

"Our CEO, Nick Jeffery, outlined a very simple four-point strategy for us," says Charlon. "Build fiber, sell fiber, improve the customer experience, and improve our operational efficiency." In alignment with these goals, Frontier treated millions of monthly calls as a focus group, and started by redesigning its messy billing process. They used data on call reasons and complaint volumes to guide a weekly, two-hour "earning customer loyalty" meeting across departments. One Friday at a time, owners identified fixes, rather than providing chest-beating updates. 

Charlon and Melissa's collaborative relationship is an enviable example of cross-functional teamwork. They finish each other's sentences and share a single scorecard. "There is no IT strategy," Melissa says. "There is only the business strategy."

"And customers tell us if it worked," adds Charlon.

A digital-first agenda became the default. Customers now use chatbots for routine tasks, with a one-tap handoff to a person. Progress runs on shared operations and IT metrics, with the CEO actively observing from the customers' viewpoint, even using customer tools himself, to identify adjustments they could implement in real time. 

"We were able to shift adoption from nearly a hundred percent of our transactions being handled in a call center to today, where less than 20% of our interactions are assisted between chat and phone calls," Charlon says. "The point isn't deflection. It's a faster, better answer."

Guests: Charlon McIntosh, Chief Customer Operations Officer, Frontier Communications, and Melissa Pint, Chief Digital Information Officer, Frontier Communications

Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company

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Time-Stamped Topics

• [00:02:00] Frontier's turnaround mandate and four-point strategy
• [00:05:00] How experience assurance sets standards and shapes launches
• [00:07:00] How call volume helps spot customer experience opportunities
• [00:09:00] How a weekly  "earning customer loyalty" forum drives executive action 
• [00:10:00] Frontier's prioritization of billing and communications cleanup
• [00:18:00] How digital channels rapidly shift interactions
• [00:23:00] How their chatbot resolves most chats by understanding intent
• [00:27:00] Diving into results experienced thus far and record-low churn
• [00:39:00] Issuing a no-go on a marquee launch to prioritize quality
• [00:45:00] Looking ahead to the future of data and AI 

Notable Quotes

• [00:08] "The interactions with our customers every day in our contact channels, those are like mini focus groups. They're telling us what's confusing, what's broken, what we've done wrong, where they need help, and where they need additional support. We used the reasons customers were calling as our initial guide to say what's happening."
• [10:00]  "As a care leader, I have the data. I can tell my partners across the organization where we are making poor decisions and where we have low quality. It's the ability to get them to listen to me. That's what makes the difference in my team's success and our ability to improve the customer experience."
• [15:00]  "As a turnaround company, since we did need to turn around pretty quickly, we did not have the luxury of completely changing core legacy backend systems. … Our strategy was to create a layer on top of them that would bring systems together."
•  [18:00] "A digital-first strategy means things are going to start being automated, and you put things in your customer's hands; you're giving more power to your users to have automated tasks. That drives different traffic in your backend systems—different traffic patterns—that backend systems need to accommodate."

Episode 249: When "revenge travel" brought guests roaring back to Four Seasons Hotels, they capped occupancy, turning away guests and revenue.

Scott Taber, senior vice president of global hospitality, describes the Four Seasons philosophy: No points, no perks. Just great properties, individual recognition, personal service, and an emphasis on making sure the first five minutes after check-in are spectacular.

That belief was put to the test when the world started traveling again and labor gaps persisted at the end of the pandemic. The company had a choice: chase revenue or protect intimacy. It chose intimacy.

To avoid overextending staff and diluting the experience, Four Seasons capped occupancy. The organization focused on preserving what Scott calls the "first five": those opening minutes that define a guest's stay. "People want to see your eyes and your teeth," he says. They want to be recognized, not processed.

That doesn't mean resisting tech. Four Seasons embraced tools that support connection: a CRM "golden record" surfaces each guest's preferences so staff can deliver personal touches at scale. They also rolled out a proprietary 11-platform chat tool that helps staff resolve 80% of requests within 90 seconds. Last year, they set an NPS record. 

Culture provides the foundation for the organization's enduring success. Recruiting favors empathy, veterans mentor newcomers, and managers celebrate tiny moments of recognition as fiercely as revenue. With management contracts that stretch a whopping 80 years, Four Seasons plays the long game: culture first. For Four Seasons, the strongest currency isn't points, but people.

Guest: Scott Taber, Senior Vice President for Global Hospitality, Four Seasons Hotels

Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company

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Send us a note: Contact Rob

Topics Covered:

• 00:04 How occupancy caps protect service under pressure
• 00:12 No points program means loyalty through recognition
• 00:20 Salesforce "golden record" and how it personalizes at scale
• 00:30 The benefits of their chat platform that responds instantly to guests
• 00:35 Getting culture right, like hiring empathetic staff and having veterans mentor newcomers
• 00:41 How their 80-year contracts reinforce a culture-first strategy
  

Notable Quotes:

• 00:02 "It's the service excellence that we want to have in our properties every single day, and making sure that we have the right tools, training, support, structure, to truly bring that to life. And all while creating great jobs and helping to have amazing leaders and supporting them to create great memories and experiences for our guests."
• 00:03 "We had a record year last year with our guest experience score, Net Promoter Score."
• 00:11 "Our typical management agreement is 80 years. We want to be with this hotel, we want to be with this project, for the long term. It's the vision of Mr. Sharp [Four Seasons' founder] committing himself to the property and us being committed to the property for that period of time. I think there are some pretty good foundational elements to keep us going for a long time to come."
• 00:12 " [Customers] want to be remembered and appreciated for their business. Four Seasons doesn't have a loyalty program. We're a small brand: 133 hotels. So, how do we do that in a way that is thoughtful and that helps our employees to be able to remember our guests in the right way?"
• 00:25 "We want to hire for attitude and teach the skills. So you are looking for someone who wants to connect with that guest and be in sync with what that guest needs at that moment. And that comes with how we teach and how we coach that behavioral side to engage with the guests—what's important for them in the moment."

Additional Resources:

• Connect the dots between the present and the past with our Customer Confidential podcast from 2016, Inside the Four Seasons Approach to Five-Star Service
• Learn more about how Four Seasons was impacted by Covid-19 in our brief: The Power to Change

Andrew Clayton, global head of customer experience at E.ON, talks to Rob about how you inspire an organization to respond to customer feedback, not once or twice, but continuously, with unflagging energy. Since the early 2000s, he has scaled sustainable NPS programs at three major companies, Allianz, Bupa, and now E.ON. He has become an expert at winding that customer feedback loop into the DNA of the company, so that NPS self-replicates, even into new teams and new projects.

Alex Terpstra, head of innovations at ABN AMRO Bank, was born and raised for customer service. His father, a retailer in the Netherlands, never failed to remind young Alex who put food on the family's table. "Every day on our dinner table we were talking about customers." On this episode of the Net Promoter System podcast, Alex explains how he helped ABN AMRO to launch radically new services for its customers, even at the risk of a short-term profit hit. The payoff, he says, has been highly lucrative customer relationships that pay dividends far beyond the initial costs.

A recent Wall Street Journal article ran under a catchy headline, "The Dubious Management Fad Sweeping Corporate America." The dubious management fad, according to the article, is the Net Promoter Score. Of course, the headline bothered me and my podcast guest, Maurice FitzGerald, the former vice president of customer experience at HP. But once we read past the attention-grabbing headline, we agreed with much of what the authors had to say. They provided a sober summary of many ways a company can misinterpret or misuse the Net Promoter Score. In fact, I'd encourage NPS practitioners to ignore the headline and read the article with an eye towards all of the things you shouldn't do with the score. While NPS has gained tremendous popularity, many companies have cut corners or failed to invest in understanding the benefits of a comprehensive Net Promoter System. The article offers a jumping off point for a deeper conversation about the mistakes and errors that we wish all practitioners of the Net Promoter System would avoid, once and for all.

IBM used to collect customer feedback through longitudinal surveys—until Kathy McGettrick, the vice president of market development and insights at IBM, realized the surveys put all responsibility for creating quality experiences on IBM's sellers and ignored other aspects of the customer experience. So Kathy launched a digital platform that sent client feedback deeper into IBM. Today, some 40,000 IBMers use a client experience management platform that tracks hundreds of thousands of data points.

Razia Richter's path to the executive suite at Petco took her on a wild, winding tour of the company's operations and back-office functions, from accounting to inventory analytics to supply chain, to name a few. By the time Razia was put in charge of Petco's customer experience and the adoption of the Net Promoter System, she had personally busted through just about every organizational silo imaginable. And because she had walked in the shoes of so many of the company's line leaders, her early days as chief customer officer were marked by surprisingly little of the resistance often encountered when companies adopt the Net Promoter System. Her practical experience guided her to pursue an approach that earned the trust of business leaders and functional teams. Without that trust, many companies fail to achieve the culture change that the Net Promoter System demands. In this podcast, Razia shares just how far you can go when you have executive buy-in from the start.

Loyal listeners may recall my last conversation, with Joshua Rossman, formerly the senior director of global customer loyalty and NPS at eBay. Since that interview, Josh has left eBay and consulted with a variety of companies on using the Net Promoter System to help guide customer experience improvements. Now he's at McAfee, one of the world's largest security technology companies. 

Josh has mastered the art of creating a customer feedback system that supports senior executive goal setting and decision making, while also providing the platform for frontline learning and growth. His approach gets to the very heart of why a customer becomes a promoter or a detractor in the first place. By developing a rich set of qualitative insights and combining it with the quantitative data surrounding NPS, Josh seizes the attention of executives across the organization and draws leaders into a fast-moving feedback loop with the customers.

Kevin Parker is the chairman and CEO of HireVue, a platform for automating job interviews. Hirevue combines video interviews of job applicants with an AI-powered algorithms that can filter for qualifications faster than any HR team. Of course, an algorithm doesn't evaluate candidates the same way a human could. Like any breakthrough in machine learning, it's a grab bag of promising signals, emerging from the noise, and, well, noise. As Kevin will tell you, though, the signal-to-noise ratio is falling fast.