CMA Connect – Details, episodes & analysis

Isn't all marketing performance driven? Lauren Bradeen, CMO and Partner at Deloitte, challenges the traditional brand-versus-performance debate in her conversation with Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA. When Lauren stepped into the CMO role, she was driven to evolve the B2B marketing industry playbook. Now she's leading a transformation to help B2B marketers build marketing teams that are confident in the value they bring, rather than constantly justifying every dollar. Plus, Lauren shares why being a 'capability collector' is the secret to career advancement.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:09
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:11 - 00:00:47:22
Alison
I'm very happy to welcome Lauren Bradeen, Chief Marketing Officer and Partner at Deloitte Canada, for today's episode. Lauren is leading a comprehensive marketing transformation that's redefining how one of the world's premier professional services firms is approaching the integration of brand and performance marketing. Her expertise and strategic thinking have been showcased in industry publications, where she's contributed insights on the evolving challenges facing modern marketers.

00:00:48:00 - 00:01:10:06
Alison
Lauren's also been actively engaged in developing the next generation of marketing talent, recently participating as a guest speaker at our CMA NXT Marketing Careers Night, and she was also a judge for this year's CMA Awards. What sets Lauren apart is her journey from in the business into marketing leadership. She really understands how Deloitte works with clients, the processes behind it, and how to speak the language of the business.

00:01:10:08 - 00:01:33:06
Alison
Currently, she's leading Deloitte Marketing through what she calls the messy middle, an important part of any transformation. And they're moving from an operational marketing function to a strategic brand and growth engine with their own targets and accountability, all while maintaining Deloitte's position as the number one brand globally in the category. With marketing leaders across industries grappling with the false choice between brand building and performance marketing,

00:01:33:07 - 00:01:46:02
Alison
Lauren's approach can offer a roadmap for how these traditionally siloed functions really need to work together to drive real business success. Welcome, Lauren, I am absolutely thrilled to have you join us here today, and I'm looking forward to a terrific conversation.

00:01:46:04 - 00:01:48:04
Lauren
Thank you. Alison. So am I.

00:01:48:06 - 00:01:59:04
Alison
So let's get started with your story. When you stepped into the CMO role at Deloitte, what was it that resonated for you about that role and what were some of your early priorities?

00:01:59:06 - 00:02:20:08
Lauren
So I would offer that my journey into the role might have been a little bit more unconventional, as I was actually offered the role while on maternity leave, and so that really provided me a bit of space without an existing mandate to be focused on, to really think about the opportunity. And there were three things that surfaced for me.

00:02:20:10 - 00:02:42:12
Lauren
The first was to drive a greater impact for the firm. And so this role supports all of our businesses and all of our industries. And so within that, I have the opportunity to actually learn from and work with leaders across operate and consulting services and tax and legal, ER and I G.P.S. And so that was really, really interesting for me.

00:02:42:14 - 00:03:14:23
Lauren
The second was I had felt like the B2B playbook had not made as much progress over the last decade. And so I was excited about this opportunity for an industry that felt pretty ripe for transformation. And then the third piece was, what an honour. And so when they offered me the role, I felt like from a personal career perspective, the growth, the leadership opportunity to work with this large, incredible team, it just felt like something that I absolutely couldn't turn down.

00:03:15:01 - 00:03:38:13
Lauren
And so being on maternity leave, that also gave me a bit of space in a different way to think about what I wanted to do before I actually started the role. And so as I stepped into the role, the immediate priorities I had gone in with a bit of like blue sky unconstrained strategy, what were all the things that I would have loved when I was in the business?

00:03:38:15 - 00:03:57:18
Lauren
And then once I started the role and did my listening tour, in that first month, I was really able to validate, invalidate, gain new ideas from the team, hear all the things that they had always wanted to do, but maybe felt like they couldn't. And so right off the bat, the focus was just getting the strategy set.

00:03:57:19 - 00:04:15:07
Lauren
I started in Q2 as well for Deloitte, and so I felt like if I waited too long, it could actually be a bit more disruptive. And so we got that strategy in place, shared out this strategy so that everybody on the team felt part of and very clear on, what was our mission and what were we rallying around.

00:04:15:08 - 00:04:36:03
Lauren
And then the immediate priorities were around the areas that needed the most modernization in order to deliver on that strategy. And so we set up what we called task forces. There was about six of them, they're like mini consulting projects around things like digital transformation and KPIs and measurement. There were a few new capabilities we wanted to stand on, like our content studio.

00:04:36:05 - 00:04:40:06
Lauren
And so those were the immediate priorities that we took on once I stepped into the role.

00:04:40:08 - 00:04:52:13
Alison
I absolutely love that Deloitte gave you the promotion when you were on mat leave. That speaks so incredibly well of the culture, and the signal that that would have sent across the organization is incredibly powerful.

00:04:52:15 - 00:05:10:03
Lauren
I will reinforce that. I felt incredibly honoured and also very proud of Deloitte for giving me that opportunity while on maternity leave. I also asked my leader, like, do you think this is something that I can do as a new mom? And she was like, I think you can do this because you're a new mom. Like the the perspective you'll bring.

00:05:10:03 - 00:05:15:13
Lauren
And so that was definitely a very proud moment for me, for the firm.

00:05:15:15 - 00:05:45:02
Alison
That's amazing. Now, one of the big themes in marketing today is the ongoing tension between brand marketing and performance marketing. It is so often treated as an "either or" instead of an "and" relationship. So with that as a backdrop, I know you're leading a significant transformation at Deloitte around performance marketing. I'd love you to share your approach to structuring and changing marketing within the organization to be more performance driven, acknowledging that the brand part is an important part of driving that performance as well.

00:05:45:03 - 00:06:08:04
Lauren
So first and foremost, I've never loved the term performance marketing. I can appreciate that what felt like quite suddenly, marketers could track a sale and attribute a dollar to the marketing spend. It was very exciting. But I actually think we did a disservice by categorizing a part of marketing as performance, because then what is everything else in service of?

00:06:08:06 - 00:06:32:00
Lauren
And so I feel like the pendulum swung now back to needing a more balanced approach. And that's absolutely how we are embracing it. And so we call it "from brand to demand". And all marketing is performance driven. But it's in service of different KPIs. And so in terms of how we're thinking about performance marketing holistically, and you need that KPI framework.

00:06:32:00 - 00:07:03:01
Lauren
So we have quantifiable KPIs across brand, eminence consideration and growth. And we work in service of that KPI framework. The next thing I'd say, that we have done, again, in service of this broader performance marketing definition, is being a little bit less binary around how we look at spend. And so I think even when performance marketing started being talked about, you'd say, okay, well, we need to invest this percentage of our budget on performance marketing and then this percentage on everything else.

00:07:03:03 - 00:07:27:07
Lauren
Whereas the percentage splits or the way in which you flex your budget is very dependent on what you are marketing and the challenges that you're facing. We know that through things like media mixed modelling and different incrementality and approaches, you're going to learn what the right budget split at a given time is. But I do think we need to be more fluid in our approaches to budget and spending.

00:07:27:12 - 00:07:58:01
Lauren
And so we're really thinking about, what are the needs of our business, what are the needs of our client, and what does that mean from a spend split perspective? In the same way that you wouldn't look at the cost to acquire every segment the same. And so I think that comes back to everything needing to be in service of that KPI framework, because if you're only looking at something like the cost per acquisition, you're going to miss out on more flexible budgeting and spend split strategy, which would actually be in service of more growth.

00:07:58:03 - 00:08:22:12
Lauren
And then the last thing I'd offer is just the short term - long term balance. We're very lucky because Deloitte is a very client centric business, and we don't have the pressures of maybe a tech company or a consumer company where they have targets every week to meet on sales. Just by nature of the velocity of our sales cycle, we are more of a longer term business.

00:08:22:12 - 00:08:45:01
Lauren
And so we have that long term longevity of the business, longevity of the brand mindset. So I will be the first to admit that it is probably easier for us, but we know and the data shows that you have to think about the decisions that you're making in totality. If you stop investing in the brand, it makes it a lot harder and more expensive later to make up for that market share.

00:08:45:03 - 00:08:56:00
Alison
Now, building on that, how do you define a high performance marketing function today and what does great look like? And I'd also love you to talk a little bit about how has that definition evolved.

00:08:56:02 - 00:09:28:22
Lauren
So I think there's two parts of a high performance marketing team. There is the "what" and then there is the "how". And the "what" from my perspective is exactly what I just talked about. It's the KPI framework. And so every organization should have quantified targets across brands straight through to the bottom of the funnel. And with those quantified targets, there is a need for both a baseline and a benchmark view on those things so that you know you're not being too insular and what you're reaching for.

00:09:29:00 - 00:09:48:12
Lauren
But we also know that we ultimately have to continue to optimize and improve on our own metrics, because that's the data that we control, and we see and can compare apples to apples. And so once you have that, you have the targets for your KPI strategy. That's when you know what high performance is because that is meeting or exceeding all of your targets.

00:09:48:14 - 00:10:19:08
Lauren
And then how do you meet and exceed your targets? That is your strategy, your people and then your process data and tech. And so to me people is actually decoupled from the others because people and culture are what you truly need to unleash to be high performance. If you have a culture of innovation and curiosity and testing and learning, a really like relentless and dedicated and excited team, you are going to be able to reach your targets time and time again,

00:10:19:10 - 00:10:47:07
Lauren
better than those that maybe don't have that culture where people feel really empowered and unconstrained. And then how you enable those people is through that virtuous cycle of process, tech and data. I'm in my head seeing like a slide because I am maybe a consultant at heart now, and so that's how I can visualize it is you really have like your people at the top, and then you've got that underpinning of the process, tech and data, and then your culture is the enabler.

00:10:47:12 - 00:11:06:10
Lauren
And of course this evolves. So the inputs into those things is constantly evolving because we are in an industry that is never standing still in the same way that the conversations we're having about technology. We have technologies in a martech perspective that we weren't even talking about five years ago, whether that's your customer data platform or what have you.

00:11:06:15 - 00:11:24:08
Lauren
And same with data and AI. And so you always have to be iterating and evolving the inputs. But I think that framing of ensuring that there's a connectedness behind your process, tech and data to empower and really unleash your people is what will get you to the most high performance outcomes and culture.

00:11:24:10 - 00:12:00:05
Alison
Dividing it into the "what" and the "how" is a really powerful way to simplify a very complex topic. And then I'm in passionate agreement with you on the critical role of people and culture as really being the the secret weapon in driving true performance. When you think about the world of AI and how it's impacting very positively and potentially negatively our profession and our world, knowing that the culture and the people are such a differentiator should give everyone some comfort that while AI can be a very powerful tool, it's not going to replace us.

00:12:00:07 - 00:12:17:03
Lauren
I'm of the same mindset. At Deloitte we talk about human-led, AI-enabled, and so there are absolutely incredible use cases for us to be elevating and improving the way we work. But the human potential and the authenticity of people, that is the power.

00:12:17:05 - 00:12:38:21
Alison
And it can really help us scale. And when you think applying that to smaller businesses, it can be a very powerful competitive advantage as well. 

Lauren
Absolutely. 

Alison
So now we're going to do a little bit of myth-busting. And you've touched on this a bit. But between people, process, tech and data, what's the real unlock or the biggest myth that you'd like to bust about what actually drives performance?

00:12:38:23 - 00:13:01:00
Lauren
Yeah, I maybe, gave the plot away a little bit on the last one. I'm, passionately in the camp of people. One of the offerings that I worked with clients on when I was in the consulting business was around upskilling. And in upskilling we were bringing forward the demos around the tech and deeper understanding of the data.

00:13:01:02 - 00:13:29:22
Lauren
But one of the biggest, I think, challenges that organizations face is they invest a lot of money in the martech, a lot of money in the data, the integration of the systems, etc. and they expect that that and that alone will yield the outcomes. And then the business cases aren't being realized because they forget the fact that if you look at any go to market process, that the person that is running that process or taking you through that process, they have to have an understanding of the tech.

00:13:29:22 - 00:13:52:11
Lauren
If you are writing a brief or you are delivering on a brief, if you're a creative or your immediate team or agency, and you don't have an understanding of the tech that can segment or better personalize or dynamic creative, you're not going to be able to write or receive that brief in the same way as somebody that does have the understanding of that tech and that data.

00:13:52:13 - 00:14:20:08
Lauren
And so I think the biggest myth to bust is just the idea that you can, like, tech your way into high performance. You need the infrastructure, you need the martech, you need the connected data. But if you discount the need to upskill your people around that, or to build a culture where people get excited about that change and that progress and optimizing the tools that they use to get to market, then you won't yield the outcomes that you hoped for.

00:14:20:10 - 00:14:44:07
Alison
Very well said. Now another passion that we share is the mission critical role that marketing plays in building businesses and contributing to Canada's economy. Yet we still at times struggle to get a seat at the table. So I'd love you to share how you see marketing as a strategic growth engine, and how you've been able to fight and get that important seat at the table with Deloitte.

00:14:44:09 - 00:15:05:06
Lauren
So I think and I believe we can do this through the Canadian Marketing Association. All of the marketers need to hold hands and decide that we're just going to put the debate to bed once and for all, because has any other function in the history of business had to prove themselves and bring as much data to the table as marketing has.

00:15:05:08 - 00:15:28:07
Lauren
I don't think so. And so I think if you look at the business case of marketing as an engine for brand and growth, and again, we have brought like the data-driven empirical proof that marketing drives growth. So there is a great study around looking at the impact of brand spend. And so organizations that are having a more holistic approach to marketing.

00:15:28:11 - 00:15:51:20
Lauren
What is the impact long term on sales CAGR? And they saw that those in the bottom quartile had 13 percentage points lower CAGRs than the top quartile. We've seen digital conversion points. We've seen e-commerce and the ability to track and attribute marketing to sales. We've seen the impact of cross-sell upsell in the customer onboarding, the ability to deepen customer lifetime value.

00:15:51:22 - 00:16:21:14
Lauren
I think every organization and every marketer has the industry data to showcase brand and marketing as a driver of growth, as well as the stats and the data-driven proof points within your organization. And so I think that as long as a marketer is coming to the table with that data that we have to just put it to bed a little bit and have the confidence that we've already justified that marketing is a really, really great engine, both for brand and growth.

00:16:21:16 - 00:16:42:19
Alison
For our listeners who aren't familiar with the research that Lauren cited, we'll make sure that we add it into the notes for the podcast so that you can access it. Lauren, you have an approach to reporting on marketing measurement that would be aspirational for many of our listeners. You track marketing ROI internally with your team and focus on brand health metrics when you're presenting to the executive.

00:16:42:21 - 00:16:48:07
Alison
Can you walk us through this philosophy and how you're building credibility with the business using this process?

00:16:48:08 - 00:17:13:10
Lauren
Well, thank you for that, Alison. I would agree. We have a fantastic foundation and strategy, but of course we are on a continuous journey to be more sophisticated. And so we're actually about to start some consulting projects with our analytics and marketing teams around automation, more AI enablement. And we have a fantastic new head of marketing analytics. So it really does feel like everything is coming together.

00:17:13:10 - 00:17:41:02
Lauren
But at its core, from an approach to reporting perspective, one critical thing I'd offer, which is just that brand to demand connected reporting view. And so for us, every campaign is categorized and it supports a specific set of KPIs that is from that broader set of KPIs in our framework that tells our performance story. And then we have different levels of reporting that are all connected.

00:17:41:04 - 00:18:04:16
Lauren
And so at the highest level we have our full marketing performance story. And then there's program level reporting for each pod. And then campaign level reporting that's much more tactical and really where we see the metrics come through. And so this enables our executive and leadership team to understand the full impact. And then we can actually drill down where necessary to understand the why.

00:18:04:21 - 00:18:32:19
Lauren
Why did we hit this KPI, why didn't we? Oh this looked really great. Let's understand so we can do more of that. And so that approach has really helped us have the most accurate snapshot that we can of the impact that we make across brand, eminence and growth. And the only other thing that I will say is I am very fortunate to work at an organization that is very supportive of the work that we do around brand and client value.

00:18:32:21 - 00:18:47:11
Lauren
And so there isn't really that over-rotation on short term sales thinking that can often skew marketing strategy. And so we are fortunate for great leadership in that regard that really lets this strategy and this approach to measurement live.

00:18:47:13 - 00:18:58:03
Alison
Now this type of change doesn't happen overnight. And I know some of our listeners are going to be thinking, I would love to be in that situation. So how would you recommend they get started on this transformation?

00:18:58:07 - 00:19:26:09
Lauren
Two things that I'd say were pretty critical for us in the beginning. And the first was real conversations with the business to understand what value they need. And we weren't having conversations around, well, we can generate impressions and we can drive this many clicks. It was really just business to business conversations around, okay, so do you actually need these types of industries more aware of your services or, what type of functions do you actually need reading our content?

00:19:26:09 - 00:19:48:07
Lauren
What do you want them to learn? What do you want them to see that you have the expertise in? And so having conversations like that with the business enables us to genuinely understand what it is that we can do that can help them be successful. And then we're able to, in the background, translate that into the marketing language and the marketing metrics.

00:19:48:08 - 00:20:09:14
Lauren
And so that first thing really is just genuinely seeking to understand the value that we can add for the business and offering our perspective on the areas that can actually help, or offering data and market research to say, I don't know if you actually do have an awareness challenge. I think people are pretty aware, maybe we need to do something a little bit more engagement-driven.

00:20:09:16 - 00:20:34:16
Alison
You're also really elevating it beyond the marketing performance to, here is the business outcome and impact that we are holding ourselves accountable to and delivering against. So you're having a business conversation and marketing is obviously the key driver behind that. But the conversation you're having at the executive level is more here is the business impact the marketing team is having versus here's how our last few campaigns and initiatives performed, which is a much more important conversation.

00:20:34:21 - 00:21:04:15
Lauren
Exactly. And I think that it's important to see that partnership and with the business, like, we don't do anything without the business. It is the business sharp insights that inform our POVs. It is our business leaders that are on the podcast. It is often even the inspiration for our campaigns that we get from the business, because they're spending every day with our clients and they are understanding the challenges and the constraints that our clients feel, and they know what works and what doesn't work.

00:21:04:15 - 00:21:27:18
Lauren
And so they help even inform the human truths in our campaign. And so I think if you also think about marketing as just part of the value proposition of your organization, and you think about marketing in partnership with the business, it also stops being such a hard sell because it is truly in partnership with, rather than one function or another function doing different things.

00:21:27:20 - 00:21:51:22
Alison
But it also goes back to, you've been in the business, you've had PNL accountability. And when I am asked for advice from marketers at all levels, it really is, get in the business, be responsible for a PNL, understand how the business works, and it will make you a much better marketer. You will build a lot more credibility and accountability with your colleagues across the organization as well.

00:21:52:00 - 00:22:00:03
Alison
You mentioned you're in the messy middle of your transformation. So what's working well, and what are some of the unexpected obstacles or surprises you've encountered?

00:22:00:05 - 00:22:26:01
Lauren
The messy middle is the best part. And so I will say we are having a lot of fun because this is where you have the most license to test, to learn and explore. And that is probably the first thing I'd say that is going really well. I am very fortunate to have an incredible team. They are driven, they have growth mindset and really both feet in on this transformation.

00:22:26:06 - 00:22:51:00
Lauren
And that is everything. Because you can teach any skill, but you cannot teach curiosity, passion and drive. And I really do feel like every day we wake up and we're focused on progress. You can see that come through in the fact that our upskilling programs have near perfect attendance. And so that is the heart of transformation. And I will say, I truly just feel honoured to be part of this team.

00:22:51:00 - 00:23:16:13
Lauren
And so that's where all of it starts. And that's what helps you get through the messy middle. Along with seeing the signals that it's working. And so the first part of that is that we are learning there are many channels that B2B can thrive in and reach your target audience, and that's been really energizing and motivating for our people, because we're able to build our own playbook and we are able to innovate in a really effective way,

00:23:16:13 - 00:23:38:15
Lauren
when you're starting to see the data show that whether it is engagement, whether it is reaching your target audience, whether it is things like leads, that the things that you're testing are actually translating to great results. And so we talk all the time about how we don't want to be part of sort of the stagnancy of the B2B marketing industry.

00:23:38:15 - 00:23:59:07
Lauren
We want to break rules. We want to do things differently. And so seeing the results is really motivating and validating. And then the other part of that is the signals that we're actually hearing from clients. And so the results and the feedback is promising. Part of what we are looking to do is be seen as an extension of the value proposition of Deloitte.

00:23:59:09 - 00:24:22:08
Lauren
And so we want to be able to bring valuable insights and expert thinking and different perspectives from the field to our clients in engaging and consumable formats. And so we've had clients reach out to their partners from our business about the podcast episodes they listened to or the content they saw them featured in and sharing their appreciation or sharing

00:24:22:08 - 00:24:44:20
Lauren
I learned something, or I didn't know that you did that or I actually could use your help on that. And so that really validates the performance data we're seeing and signals that we're on the right track. In terms of what we have learned the hard way, I'd offer two things. The first is around just ensuring that you are consistent and very repetitive.

00:24:44:22 - 00:25:07:13
Lauren
You, as the leader, might say something 15 times, but it actually only goes to certain audiences or certain individuals on your team once. And so ensuring that you are just consistent and repetitive is important, especially because there is so much change as you are progressing and evolving and optimizing and testing and scaling. There is so much that does change.

00:25:07:16 - 00:25:34:16
Lauren
So ensuring that you are consistent on things like your mandate or things like the strategy and the fixed parts is incredibly important. And if I could go back, I probably would ensure that I was doing that more at scale. So that everybody was getting those consistent messages throughout versus maybe those just reaching some. And then the other thing I would offer is based on something I heard recently, actually, that was "you don't know what you know."

00:25:34:18 - 00:26:04:11
Lauren
And that's important because if you're designing things, you're going to be making you know, and maybe assuming that that's common practice for everyone. And so ensuring that you have cross-functional groups, just gut checking things along the way, or ensuring that you have feedback loops built in as you're managing through any change in process, digital channel execution, reporting, whatever that might be.

00:26:04:13 - 00:26:19:18
Lauren
That is also really critical. And so those are probably the two things that I would reflect and say, I probably could have caught on a little bit sooner to make sure that I was making it easier for everyone and ensuring that we were really productively moving through our transformation.

00:26:19:20 - 00:26:35:05
Alison
I love the twist on the line - typically it's "you don't know what you don't know", but I love the twist on "you don't know what you know", and when you're having conversations across the team, across your organization, you can't, often we can assume, well, if I know it they must know it. So that that's a really good light bulb moment for sure.

00:26:35:07 - 00:26:54:00
Alison
The other part that really resonates is the power and the need for repetition. There's some great research that says the average person needs to hear the same message on average seven times before it sinks in. And when you're the person responsible for saying it, you're thinking, oh my god, how can I possibly say this again and have them not understand it?

00:26:54:01 - 00:27:04:12
Alison
So it's a really good level set to remind yourself. With all the ways we're bombarded with communications, we really do need to hear something seven times for it to really, truly sink.

00:27:04:14 - 00:27:21:21
Lauren
I think all of us can relate to that as well, because there's nothing better than consistent messaging and consistent leadership. And especially in an industry that is changing so rapidly, you already have to embrace change, and you already have to know that the best thing to do one quarter ago might not be the best thing to do anymore.

00:27:22:01 - 00:27:33:03
Lauren
So at least if you are consistent in your strategy and your direction and the things that matter most, and you're extra repetitive in those, I think we can all relate to how helpful that is.

00:27:33:05 - 00:27:58:13
Alison
Absolutely. Now, Lauren, you've transformed your team's relationship with business partners and very much moved away from a service provider to a truly strategic partner who's co-creating rather than seeking approval. So you've touched a bit on this, but it's such an important topic and relevant topic for our listeners. I'd love you to talk a bit more about how you facilitated the transition, and what advice would you give to other marketers looking to elevate their role?

00:27:58:15 - 00:28:23:02
Lauren
It's a great question, Alison, but full kudos goes to the team because they are showing up every day with expertise and credibility, and that is what it takes. I will say though, I feel like this is just the tip of the iceberg for us. And so as we continue to build and progress and drive results, we will be seen more and more as the powerhouse that this team is.

00:28:23:04 - 00:28:54:03
Lauren
But there are a couple of things that we were very intentional about as part of this transformation that did really, really help us. And the first is just building that infrastructure. And so I've mentioned it before, but upskilling our new go to market, digital and audience strategy, tech enablement, AI, templates, we really put in the work so that we could show up and be excellent so that when you meet with marketing, it is a strategic, professional and value-add experience.

00:28:54:05 - 00:29:20:02
Lauren
And we continue to work on that every single day. And so that's the first pieces that once you have that infrastructure, once people are clear on what it is they're doing, what the outcome of those interactions are, then you continue to just show up really well to your business, and that earns and demands respect. The second piece is just ensuring that your team is empowered to be confident and have fun when they're working with the business.

00:29:20:04 - 00:29:43:23
Lauren
It is really easy to feel intimidated when you are working with such deep subject matter experts in their fields. And obviously, that is our experience at Deloitte and I'm sure for many others. And so we have to remind ourselves that, while they're experts in their trade, we are also experts in our craft. And marketing has become a technology- driven, data-driven function.

00:29:44:00 - 00:30:08:08
Lauren
And so while we don't understand everything that they're saying, they also don't understand everything that we know about marketing. And so we've really encouraged our team members to have the confidence to say, "I don't understand that, tell me more." Or "I'd really like to understand it from this angle." Whereas when you are maybe a bit more intimidated and trying to show up like, no, I actually do understand everything about your business,

00:30:08:10 - 00:30:27:10
Lauren
you're not going to be able to get to the meat of it. And then that prevents great marketing, because if we don't understand what it is we're marketing, how are our clients possibly going to understand that? And as marketing, you are reaching hundreds of thousands of people with your messages every day, which is a scale that nobody else in the business has.

00:30:27:13 - 00:30:45:18
Lauren
And so it is really important that you just have that confidence to ask questions and have dialogue and have a little bit of fun while you're at it, so that everybody walks away feeling like that was a great conversation and you walk away clear on what it is you needed to learn. And then lastly, clear and collaborative swim lanes.

00:30:45:20 - 00:31:09:18
Lauren
So business, risk and control partners in marketing have to be operating in a trio. And one of the big shifts that we moved from as we look to be more of a strategic advisor is seeking knowledge and not opinions. Sometimes what's being discussed, it is the marketing expertise or it is a brand risk as opposed to a regulation or compliance risk.

00:31:09:20 - 00:31:38:17
Lauren
And so if the business wants to provide a perspective on the headline or the format or what have you, that is sometimes an area we have to hold the line on and say, hey, we've got the the data and the rationale and the strategy that justifies the approach that we're taking. In the same way that we would not pretend that we should be the ones to advise on the sharp insights in the perspective or the framework, or tell them, I don't think you should actually be consulting to your clients in these ways.

00:31:38:18 - 00:31:56:00
Lauren
And so it is about ensuring that everybody understands and is open to having dialogue, so that you can get to the best outcome possible. But sometimes that does mean us holding the line on where it is that we own that decision, or where we have the value and the expertise versus the business or the control partners.

00:31:56:06 - 00:32:11:03
Alison
That's outstanding feedback and advice. Now, I'm very blessed to have senior leaders like you on the podcast, so I end every episode by asking my guests to share one piece of career advice that you would offer to people who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:32:11:05 - 00:32:33:22
Lauren
I would say the most important thing is to be a capability collector. Especially in an industry like marketing that is so multifaceted across brand and integrated marketing and creative and digital and tech and data, I think as many capabilities that you can collect throughout your career, it makes you more well-rounded. And even those that are deep in a craft,

00:32:33:22 - 00:32:57:18
Lauren
like my background, is more the digital marketer. If you still get enough understanding to be dangerous in the other areas, it will make you more well-rounded whatever depth or breadth that you have. And so I think just ensuring that you're very intentional about collecting capabilities as you go, asking the questions, doing the research, being proactive, that will help anybody get ahead.

00:32:57:20 - 00:33:17:00
Alison
It's always been great advice in marketing, but when we think about the speed with which our profession and our consumers are evolving, being a capability collector and having that as a core skill that you possess will only bode well for anyone in this profession today and in the years ahead. So, Lauren, thank you. It has been an absolute delight.

00:33:17:01 - 00:33:22:04
Alison
Definitely a highly informative and insight-rich conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time.

00:33:22:06 - 00:33:28:21
Lauren
Thank you for having me.

00:33:28:23 - 00:40:16:19
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Are you upskilling fast enough to stay ahead of AI and tech disruption? Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Mark Beckles, CEO of Palette Skills, who's leading Canada's largest upskilling initiative. With 71% of workers wanting to upgrade their skills regularly, Mark reveals how the Palette Skills program upskills people in weeks - not months. From generating $200 million in economic output to reshaping careers, learn why Mark believes the future of work belongs to those who pursue 'latticed' careers instead of climbing traditional ladders.

[00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

[00:00:23] Alison: The future of work is here as artificial intelligence and tech disruption reshape entire industries at breakneck speed. The question isn't whether Canadian workers need to upskill, but whether we can do it fast enough to stay ahead of the change and keep our country thriving. For today's episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Mark Beckles, Chief Executive Officer at Palette Skills.

[00:00:45] Alison: Mark joined Palette Skills in July and shares our passion for upskilling Canadians to ensure that they can innovate and compete both here at home as well as globally. Mark brings more than 25 years of senior leadership experience in financial services and the nonprofit sector known for driving large transformational initiatives and delivering true business value.

[00:01:05] Alison: At RBC, Mark led the Future Launch initiative that equipped 5.5 million young Canadians for the future of work. He also spearheaded RBC Upskill, a national tool that helps individuals align their skills with emerging careers. Previously, Mark served as President and CEO of the Nelson Mandela Children's Fund for Canada. 

[00:01:24] Alison: At Palette Skills, Mark and his team are leading Canada's largest upskilling initiative. His work is particularly timely as tech disruption, especially AI, are continuing to reshape entire industries and redefine what skills will be most valuable in the future. What makes Mark's perspective particularly valuable is just front row seat to workforce transformation through pallet skills programs.

[00:01:47] Alison: He can see not just what skills employers are seeking, but why they're upskilling their employees, which really provides some great early insights into how tech is driving change across Canada's economy in every province. With ongoing discussions about Canada's productivity gap, Mark's insights into upskilling and innovation couldn't be more relevant or timelier.

[00:02:07] Alison: Welcome, Mark. I am absolutely thrilled to have you join me on CMA Connect today.

[00:02:11] Mark: Thank you for having me on, Alison, such a pleasure to be here with you today. 

Alison: Now I want to kick things off by hearing more about your career journey. In particular, I'd love to know what drew you to focus on social responsibility throughout your career, and what made the transition to Palette Skills such a natural fit for you?

[00:02:28] Mark: Well, thanks for the question, Alison. I, I would start by saying that I spent most of my time, most of my career in corporate, but there was one intersectional moment in the early 2000s where I made a conscious decision to step away and to invest my skills in the nonprofit sector. And for context, I, you know, developed these skills around risk management when I was, uh, working in the insurance sector and discovered that these skills were easily transferable to the nonprofit sector where I worked in relief development at first and then had the awesome opportunity to, uh, then work for the Nelson Mandela Children's Fund for a number of of years.

[00:03:12] Mark: And, uh, as a result of that, I became acutely aware of this notion that profit and purpose can coexist in the same ecosystem, and that I could more effectively translate the language of the nonprofit sector to the corporate sector and the language of the corporate sector to the nonprofit sector, because of course, one's from Mars and the other from Venus.

[00:03:33] Mark: But in having this sort of cross sector experience or these cross-sector experiences, it really has enriched my life and really helped me understand the ways in which I can help create value for society by bringing these really strong corporate skills to the nonprofit sector and taking a real deep understanding of the issues and challenges, uh, facing the nonprofit sector rather, and what they're trying to solve, and making sure that the corporate sector and governments and other stakeholders understand. 

[00:04:03] Mark: And so in the context of Palette Skills, I just absolutely enjoy the work that we're doing because we're actually helping to ensure that we can sort of fuel Canada's economic prosperity. 

Alison: It's such a great personal example because when you think about working in a big bank, working in risk in the insurance sector, and then moving to nonprofit, a lot of our listeners, a lot of people would think, how is that possible?

[00:04:26] Alison: You're gonna be starting from scratch and not really appreciate how transferable those skills are. In my career, I've had similar opportunities where I've worked in very, very different industries, yet some of the challenges are the same, and the skills are a lot more transferable than many people assume.

[00:04:42] Mark: So I like that you have that personal perspective as you're going into head one of Canada's largest upskilling programs as well. 

Mark: Absolutely. I, I think to a large degree, most employees, most Canadians, don't understand or appreciate the extent to which their skills are actually transferrable across careers and across sectors.

[00:05:01] Mark: And that's one of the great joys of the work that we do, that I did at RBC, and now that we do it at Upscale Canada, to help workers to help employees understand the transferability of skills of workers. 

Alison: Absolutely. Yeah, diversity of experience, diversity of thought makes us all better at what we do, so it's a great, great confirmation.

[00:05:19] Alison: I mentioned in my opening that we are absolutely seeing unprecedented tech disruption, particularly with AI. So you clearly have a front row seat to workforce transformation, and I'd love to hear what early trends are you seeing in terms of how and why employers are upskilling their employees. 

[00:05:37] Mark: It's a great question Alison. Uh, a couple of things I would offer, first of which is upskilled workers get the most up to date skills and are ready to hit the ground running in four months or less. And these are employees who have an immediate impact. And the second is that workforce development is critical and cannot start when people are in the workforce.

[00:05:57] Mark: Uh, and such that we need to be thinking about upskilling as a tool of lifelong learning. And these programs can adapt at speed and they can innovate and modernize, making them essential for job seekers and for businesses who are looking to adapt. So the constant change that we are seeing in sectors like yours, like marketing for example, education and training can no longer be once and done.

[00:06:22] Mark: And for those of us who've had careers over time know that we have actually had to undergo, uh, upskilling or reskilling, whether formal or informal ways. So, so that, you know, to Upskill Canada, we maximize our impact when we work with multiple stakeholders, corporate partnerships and funders and employers and delivery partners.

[00:06:42] Mark: It's not just about employers who are looking to hire for these up-to-date skills. We also serve employers who want to up, uh, upskill their employees as well. I think of RBC funding at the level of $500,000 for a program that supports small and medium sized enterprises and responsible adoption of AI technology, and that will be launched in 2026.

[00:07:07] Mark: And that's an example of how when working with corporate partners, we can accelerate the impact that we're trying to have. But of course, business leaders and employees and job seekers will be upskilled in weeks, not months as a result of that investment. The other thing that we know is that 71% of workers

[00:07:25] Mark: absolutely want to update their skills more often. And 80% believe that employers should invest, uh, more in providing upskilling and reskilling. So upskilling helps with employee retention and uh, and employee satisfaction. And I would say that we can even work with employers to develop the programming

[00:07:44] Mark: they need to make sure that their employees have the right skills to do their jobs more efficiently and more effectively. So when we talk about upskilling employees, it's an ongoing opportunity, an ongoing process. And you know, any sector that wants to be successful is gonna have to turn attention to ensuring that they're billing that robust human capital to ensure that they're competitive.

[00:08:09] Alison: It's such a compelling stat that so many Canadian workers want to update their skills, and you make a great point that that's a surefire way to improve employee retention and employee satisfaction. What do you think holds employers back from doing more upskilling? 

Mark: I think one of the issues and challenges that holds employers back is

[00:08:28] Mark: oftentimes, particularly in small businesses, they don't know what they need in terms of, you know, where they need to upskill their employees. Oftentimes, small organizations don't have, uh, the capital, the, the, the resources to be able to upskill and reskill, uh, in real time. Oftentimes, they're unaware of the, the challenges that they are facing.

[00:08:49] Mark: Yet you have employees who often can see before  their employers do the kinds of skills that, that they, the employees will need to thrive and to prosper and to help their, uh, employers thrive and prosper. So that, I think there, there needs to be greater attention and awareness on the part of businesses to understand, you know, the skills needs of their employees and what those employers will need to focus on

[00:09:13] Mark: to ensure that they can sustain their businesses, that they can continue to compete, particularly in a world that is rapidly changing, where the challenges of tomorrow are gonna be very different from the challenges of yesterday, and that the fight for survival and, and the war for talent is going to be real, and that employers are gonna have to spend more attention, understanding where they need to compete.

[00:09:37] Alison: Small and medium enterprises really drive Canada's economy, so to ensure they have the upskilled talent they need to continue thriving both here and globally is mission critical. And then when I think about the role Upskill Canada and Palette are playing, like that's an amazing resource for SMEs to be able to leverage in order to help upskill their teams and their talent so they can compete.

[00:10:01] Alison: Now I'd love to talk specifically, clearly my bias, specifically more about marketing and creative professionals. So how do you think marketers need to approach upskilling differently given the rapid pace of tech change, especially around AI? 

Mark: That's a great question, because you know at first sight one might conclude that your space is ripe for disruption, and to some degree it is.

[00:10:24] Mark: But this is where upskilling model allows for these sorts of pivots where upskilling can rapidly evolve and train people efficiently in response to the issues and challenges and opportunities that you're seeing in your space. So the programs like Digital Marketing Skills Canada are pivoting to make sure that marketers get the right skills for a long career.

[00:10:46] Mark: And Alison, I know that the CMA has made a few pivots, even adapting to serving new sectors, and your programs have been updated. Perhaps you might wanna share with me what CMA has done about the success of the DMSC. 

Alison: Mark, thanks for turning the table on me in my typical role of host. I'm more than happy to answer that question.

[00:11:05] Alison: So, as you mentioned, the CMA leads the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, and we deliver training programs in partnership with Growclass and Jelly Academy. So we have courses that provide crucial digital marketing and business skills for marketers at every stage, including people that are brand new and want to change industries, want to get into marketing to quite senior.

[00:11:24] Alison: And the CMA and our partners also provide mission critical AI training, and that's been one of the important pivots we've made. As AI continues to evolve, we're constantly updating and refreshing our programming to make sure that our graduates are well positioned to really leverage these skills to grow businesses and brands.

[00:11:42] Alison: And then I'll, I'll brag a little bit. So since we launched the DMSC program in 2024, we've now upskilled 1900 marketing professionals from every province across the country, and we have a couple in the Yukon as well, and after upgrading their marketing skills, our graduates have gone on to support over seven hundred

[00:12:00] Alison: small and medium enterprises and really help those businesses grow their businesses, grow their sales, and really contribute job placement. So once they graduate, we have a track record of placing 75% of our graduates into a new role. And then we've also done a very good job of

[00:12:22] Alison: really supporting underrepresented groups. It was part of our original submission to DMSC and a really important priority for the CMA and our partners. So we have over 70% of our graduates and learners are from underrepresented groups, and that's just a sign of our deep commitment to EDI and, and a positive impact that we're having to make sure that the marketing profession is as equitable and diverse as the country that we represent.

[00:12:48] Mark: That is absolutely fantastic. Those are, those are stats that, uh, the CMA should be proud of. And when you think of this Pan-Canadian approach that you have, you know, delivering a program that is digital first, that is inclusive, uh, that allows for participation right across the country, that strengthens your sector, that creates, uh, career opportunities,

[00:13:13] Mark: that is inclusive. Those are all the things that make these programs successful, and I, I truly think that CMA should be really proud of those outcomes. And we are just so thrilled to be partnering with you on this. 

Alison: We hope together we're just getting started. We see a very bright future for sure, and there's certainly a significant need.

[00:13:30] Alison: We've got wait lists in the hundreds, so the more successful we are, the more we're seeing people raise their hand to want to be a part of it. Now from when Upskills Canada's initiative was first formed to today, what are the major changes that you've seen in upskilling needs across Canada? 

Mark: Well, the first thing I would say is because the program and the upskilling model is, is employer-led, it means that we are able to adjust programs and and to sort of meet

[00:13:57] Mark: the demands of employers as the, as the market shifts. And then of course, given the economic changes we are seeing, those changes require us to be increasingly more, uh, responsive to changes at the sector level. And of course, given that there is a growing number of workers in tariff hit industries that will need support, we will have to continue to be increasingly more adaptive and responsive to, to the needs of employers and to the needs of employees. Upskill Canada programs then are designed exactly to be adaptive

[00:14:38] Mark: and to allow for pivots along with, uh, the job market. And, and when we talk about rapid upskilling, it's because it's not going to take a worker two or four years to get the critical skills that they need. It's going to take a matter of, uh, of weeks. And that is again, the beauty of the Upskill Canada program.

[00:15:00] Mark: The flexibility, the adaptability of it, the ability to change and respond to what's happening in markets and, and sectors in, in real time. And when I think of where we need to go as a country, our ability to flex and, and pivot, given some of the geopolitical challenges that we are being confronted with, will require us to do that at pace and at scale.

[00:15:25] Alison: The DMSC programs is a great example of a few of the things that you've talked about. We, to your point, it, our programs are six or seven weeks. Now I will say they are an intense six or seven weeks, but our graduates come out of that with the skills they need to really do modern marketing and thrive. And then the pivoting based on where tariffs are coming and going,

[00:15:44] Mark: the Canadian industries that need greater support. Advanced manufacturing is a great example of that where, when Palette and the Government came and said, we need more support in agritech and advanced manufacturing, we were very quickly able to pivot our programs and customize those for those industries in need and deliver in a matter of weeks instead of months.

[00:16:04] Alison: So it's a really powerful element of what you're doing at Palette Skills through the Upskill Canada program as well. And when we look at the broader picture, knowing that Canada does have a productivity gap and that fueling innovation is so mission critical to our growth, why is workforce development in your perspective so critical to both productivity as well as our country's ability to innovate?

[00:16:28] Mark: That was a great question and, and I, I would answer that question in the context of the bold ambition that, that, that Prime Minister Carney has, uh, articulated and has continued to articulate for the last number of months. To which I would say that Canada will not be able to meet even the ambitious goals that he has set without a national skill strategy, which must include upskilling.

[00:16:53] Mark: I am deeply happy to see his announcements, for example, on national projects and so on. But those projects won't happen without people and the supply chains into those projects won't happen without people. Whether those supply chains are, are, are digital, whether they are focused on marketing, whether they're focused on communications, whether they're focused on infrastructure, regardless, won't happen without people.

[00:17:21] Mark: So when I talk about a national skill strategy to include upskilling, it is to ensure that in the delivery of any and all of those projects, there needs to be a focus on people. Because Canada is grappling with an unprecedented shift in the economic fundamentals that have, uh, allowed for our prosperity to this point.

[00:17:41] Mark: But if we don't invest in workforce development, we risk leaving billions of productivity and innovation untapped with talent sidelined instead of contributing to the industries that need them the most. I think we recognize that there's a growing reality that right skilled workers will be the key to our prosperity and resilience.

[00:18:04] Mark: So whether it is a large scale workforce development that requires a national collaborative model that aligns training with industry, and that needs to be connected to talent and connecting talent to opportunity quickly to ensure that that happens, that's where we need to focus our attention. But ultimately, Canada's prosperity

[00:18:23] Mark: depends on ensuring that we are providing people, equipping people with the right skills at the right time so that we can seize the opportunities in the industries that drive our future. 

Alison: Building on what you said earlier as well, agility. We need to be able to turn around so quickly, and that's one of the proven, I would say, superpowers of what you're doing at Palette, what we're doing with DMSC, the fact that we can do that in a matter of weeks and really enable our

[00:18:54] Alison: Canadians across the country to be more agile and to deliver on the business needs of today, that's really important. 

Mark: It's a great point, and I think we need to take that, uh, we need to take that approach more aggressively across many different industry sets. I think we spend a lot of time thinking about larger scale concepts and learning opportunities, which,

[00:19:19] Mark: because they're not rapid in nature, actually slow the progress that we are trying to make. And you know, if we, if we can think about pivoting, if we can think about building resilience, if we can think about, uh, adapting more quickly, Canada will be the better for it. No question. 

Alison: Absolutely. We share that passion for sure.

[00:19:37] Alison: Now you mentioned that upskilling can no longer be a once and done effort, and it's due to a lot of things, in particular technological change. And when I think about what we're teaching our learners, we're equipping them with the skills they need today, probably even more importantly, we're teaching them how to learn. Because we are only at the beginning of Ai.

[00:19:56] Alison: It is evolving every hour, let alone every week, let alone every month. So the ability to learn how to learn and to know that that's the new life skill you need to thrive is an important part of what we're doing. So how do we ensure that workers stay ahead of the pace of change? And what does lifelong learning look like in practice?

[00:20:16] Mark: Yeah, and, and that's a question that, you know, creates other questions for who see themselves potentially at risk of being disintermediated by technology. And I think part of it is acknowledging that technology is changing more quickly than it ever has in previous industrial revolutions. What I would describe as this fourth industrial revolution, which is about technological change.

[00:20:44] Mark: Digital technology is different in the sense that machines now control machines and there's in some cases very little need for human intervention. So that the opportunity is to think about those roles and opportunities that are not at risk of immediate disintermediation, and so looking to the future to understand, you know, what those opportunities look like and to stay ahead, engaging in a process of lifelong learning that ensures that we are ready for those jobs as they emerge.

[00:21:18] Mark: The one thing we know about previous industrial revolutions is that while jobs change, incrementally more jobs emerge. The level of technological change that we're seeing today means that jobs are going to change incrementally more quickly than they ever have in the past. The question is whether jobs will emerge as quickly as they have in previous, uh, industrial revolutions.

[00:21:43] Mark: And so that's why we are gonna have to be thinking about what those jobs look like, where are they by sector, and how do we ensure that we are rapidly upskilling Canadian workers so that they can, they can, they can do meaningful work and contribute to their employers and, and, and to their countries.

[00:22:00] Mark: And so taking, talking to Upskill Canada alumni, not only have they been telling us that they're happy that they have gone through these programs, they're also excited about, uh, future learning opportunities and that in itself is a valuable skill. The idea that one wants to continue learning, so that one has up to date and relevant skills to pivot and adapt as, uh, the economy needs us to.

[00:22:25] Alison: So Mark, what kind of impact do you envision Pallete Skills upskilling initiatives will have on the broader Canadian economy, especially given the speed at which the landscape is changing today? 

Mark: So we, so we are just, uh, undertaking our new mission and vision for year 2030, where we are committing to a better, skilled, more adaptable and equitable workforce that fuels a thriving Canadian economy.

[00:22:53] Mark: And what that enables and is driven by, is firstly incubating workforce solutions and products that allow for the Canadian workforce and employers and employees to really think about how they can help fuel the thriving Canadian economy. The second is increasing access to upskill talent, which is core to the program that we deliver right now.

[00:23:18] Mark: And then thirdly, adapting to the future of work. And by that I mean really anticipating where the future of work is going, where skills are gonna be required to ensure that we are right skilling and, and, and upskilling the right talent at the right time for the right sectors, for the right roles, to ensure that as the future of work changes, we are ready to be able to work with employers to ensure that their, uh, their talent is upskilled.

[00:23:44] Mark: And when I think about the, the impacts of, uh, tariffs and other geopolitical issues, this whole notion of anticipating future work comes into really sharp focus. But we're also looking at the full continuum of a worker's professional life and what might be needed to ensure that we address Canada's talent gap.

[00:24:03] Mark: For example, everyone's talking about the challenges faced by youth as they enter the professional space, but no one is speaking in terms of the opportunity that this yet untapped talent provides, and so if we can think about young people, not as a group of, uh, of, of individuals floating away on an ice drift somewhere, but as part of a sort of integrated workforce talent strategy that allows them to move from school to work into sectors that are in demand, into jobs that are in demand, we can actually build a sustainable workforce that helps, as I said before, fuel a thriving Canadian economy.

[00:24:39] Alison: I can't imagine a more needed and relevant vision. So I'm looking forward to seeing what you're accomplishing in the years ahead. I also wanna look back a little bit because Palette Skills has been around for a number of years. You've got an amazing mandate from the government and you've accomplished a tremendous amount.

[00:24:55] Alison: So I'd love you to share with our listeners some of the, uh, success metrics from the overall program. 

Mark: So, uh, at Palette Skills, you know, over the last three years with the Upskill Canada program, we have been able to upskill close to 11,000 workers. We are on track to upskill about 18,000 by the end of our mandate, uh, March 31st of, of next year.

[00:25:20] Mark: You know, 75% of the participants of our program report is being new to Canada by five years, which means that quite a number of employers are onboarding and integrating new Canadians into into the workforce, and that I think is driving a lot of our success. Quite a number of participants of our programs, you know, coast to coast coast report, receiving a significant, uh, increase in pay or salary once they go through these, uh, these rapid upskilling programs and report their satisfaction with the experience.

[00:25:55] Mark: But more fundamentally, what we also know is that based on the numbers of individuals that have been upskilled and based on the increased economic and productivity output that they have driven, in aggregate, we are able to have generated through the Upskill program an additional, uh, $200 million in economic output.

[00:26:16] Mark: And so we know that the program works. We know the model works, and we are looking forward to being able to extend this program and increase, uh, the numbers of employees that are upskilled and integrated into new jobs and new sectors as our economic fundamentals change. I can't think of a program that is more relevant and more important to the success of the Canadian economy than the work that we and other, uh, organizations like yours and the broader workforce ecosystem are doing to ensure that, uh, workers are adequately upskilled and supported.

[00:26:50] Alison: That is incredible success and we talked about what do we need to do to fill the productivity gap and ensure that Canada can continue to innovate. And for the last three years you've been doing it. So huge shout out to you and your team for delivering outstanding results for sure. Now I'm very lucky to host talented leaders on CMA Connect.

[00:27:06] Alison: So I always end each episode by asking my guests to share one piece of career advice. So we absolutely have listeners who are tuning in today that aspire to be a CEO one day. So, Mark, given your impressive career, you've been in financial services, social responsibility, workforce development, what advice would you give to those listeners who would like to be a CEO one day?

[00:27:29] Mark: Um, well, speaking, speaking about my experiences, the one thing that I've come to appreciate is that, you know, career success is not linear, and that one has to be willing to take risks and the, the real opportunities and learning and the experiences actually come through the willingness or one's willingness to take chances. 

[00:27:53] Mark: And to take chances outside the sectors that you feel that you are qualified for or some young people will say, you know, to, to use the degree that I sort of qualified in, so to speak. I've learned, and, and my own experience has been that my career has been latticed. It has not been laddered. But every time I've stepped across to another career or another experience,

[00:28:17] Mark: at some point in time, I've been able to make an upward move, and so the more, the more willing one is to take risks to recognize that careers don't have to be linear, and that the growth really comes from taking sort of latticed approaches to one's career, one can find meaningful experiences, growth opportunities, and really have impact

[00:28:40] Mark: in ways that one might not have if one stays in one vertical, and hopes against hope to move up the ladder to the role of CEO. 

Alison: I absolutely love that advice when I think about the latticed approach. Every time you make a sideways or lateral move, you're learning new skills. Every time you work in a different industry, you're learning new skills, and that ultimately opens up a lot more pathways and a lot more opportunities to step up as well.

[00:29:04] Alison: So absolutely love the advice. 

Mark: Absolutely. 

Alison: So Mark, I know you're incredibly busy. Thank you so much for being generous with your time. It's been a great conversation. And I also want to personally thank you for the amazing partnership with you and your team. We are making such an important impact in the marketing profession in Canada, and you're making it on the broader Canadian professions as well, and really helping ensure that Canada can be incredibly productive, incredibly innovative, and really grow our GDP.

[00:29:33] Alison: So from my heart, thank you very much for an amazing partnership. 

Mark: Thank you Alison. Thank you for having me on. And again, it's a partnership that we value and we're committed to working with you over the longer term, so keep doing what you guys are doing.

[00:29:51] Presenter: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit thecma.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

On this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, speaks with Canadians Zoë Boudreau, Associate Creative Director of Design, and Jesse Shaw, Senior Motion Designer, both from Rethink, about winning Canada's first Young Lions Design Competition gold at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. They reveal how a challenging 24-hour brief on Indian comic book history—completely outside their expertise—pushed them to implement integrated speech bubbles and motion systems that no other team explored. Hear how their complementary skills, iterative approach, and ability to maintain humour under extreme pressure turned unfamiliar constraints into gold-winning creativity. See their Young Lion gold-winning work here.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:01
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:03 - 00:00:48:05
Alison
Welcome back to CMA Connect. Today we're bringing you a truly special conversation straight from the heart of the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. Every year, the Young Lions competition challenges the brightest emerging talent from around the world, really pushing them to innovate under incredible pressure. This year, on the last day of what was already a very inspiring week, Canada truly shone on that global stage.

00:00:48:07 - 00:01:09:03
Alison
So I am thrilled to be joined today by the talented young Canadian creative team, Zoe Boudreau, an associate Creative Director of Design, and Jesse Shaw, a senior motion designer who not only competed but brought home the coveted Gold Lion for design. So I don't normally do a standing ovation in the beginning of a podcast, but guys, you totally deserve a standing ovation.

00:01:09:03 - 00:01:12:07
Alison
So super well done.

00:01:12:09 - 00:01:13:11
Jesse
Thank you so much.

00:01:13:13 - 00:01:14:07
Zoe
Thank you.

00:01:14:12 - 00:01:35:11
Alison
Now this incredible achievement really is a testament to your vision, certainly a testament to your hard work. It also highlights the important role of The Globe and Mail, a Canadian Marketing Association member, who champion and lead the Canadian Young Lions competition here in Canada and are really playing an important role for helping foster the next generation of creative leaders right here at home.

00:01:35:17 - 00:01:46:08
Alison
So to all our listeners, get ready to be inspired as we hear directly from Canada's winning team about their journey to gold. Zoe and Jesse. Huge welcome to the CMA Connect podcast. 

Zoe
Thank you.

00:01:46:12 - 00:01:47:17
Jesse
Thank you so much.

00:01:47:19 - 00:01:56:15
Alison
The first question I'm going to ask is, who was the first person you reached out to back home once you found out you'd want? Zoe, do you want to go first?

00:01:56:17 - 00:02:10:19
Zoe
Ooh. Honestly, I think it was probably my boyfriend. I think was the first one, but he was dead asleep, so he did not find out until the morning. But that was definitely the first person I texted. that night.

00:02:10:19 - 00:02:15:11
Alison
That nine hour time zone wouldn't have worked to your advantage on that one, coming from Kelowna. And Jesse, what about you?

00:02:15:16 - 00:02:41:05
Jesse
Yeah. It was. I mean, I'd like to say it was my wife, but, no, it was my mom because she texted me, like, five minutes after we won. Like, trying to act really  casual like she hadn't been awake all night. Saying, like, oh, have you heard anything? So I FaceTimed or just with the, with the award, and it was fun watching her, like, recognize in real time what she was reading, because I think it was exactly, it was like one in the morning or something.

00:02:41:05 - 00:02:45:21
Alison
So I think your wife is can understand that. 

00:02:45:23 - 00:02:52:18
Jesse
Yeah, she, she, she woke up to the message and she seemed pretty excited when, when she found out. But yeah.

00:02:52:20 - 00:03:17:13
Alison
That is very cool. Well, needless to say, taking home a Gold Lion in design at Cannes is a monumental achievement, especially in the Young Lions competition, which has a very intense 24-hour brief. So huge congratulations, and I'd love you to walk me through the initial moments when you first saw the brief through to coming up with the award winning idea and executing it under such an incredibly tight time constraints.

00:03:17:14 - 00:03:19:11
Alison
So who wants to kick it off?

00:03:19:12 - 00:03:40:08
Zoe
Yeah, I can kick off like the brief aspect. We were in the this area. We were like eating, because we knew that was something we needed to do before getting into the competition. And we got briefed at 4:00, but we got the briefs sent to us, I think it was at 3:30. Yeah. And we forgot about that, that it was going to be sent to us.

00:03:40:08 - 00:04:07:14
Zoe
So as we were eating, it got sent through our email and we're like, the brief! We should probably read this. And we really were like, honestly, I was kind of like surprised or like, really like, scared of the brief. The brief was really tricky. And I think that Jesse and I were just talking about it, and my face was like, oh no, this is like a really hard brief.

00:04:07:14 - 00:04:29:00
Zoe
But we got some really good advice from one of our other Canadian Young Lions saying that if it's a hard breathe, it's actually a huge opportunity because everyone's going to see it as a hard brief. So you can just like go hard. If that's the case. So that was pretty intense at the the up front because we were like, oh, this is actually going to be like an all-nighter.

00:04:29:01 - 00:04:49:01
Jesse
Yeah I think yeah. So I think it's called the solarium, like the cafe, and you know, really the memory is just having, you know, the, the hot sun just beating down on us and really thinking like, okay, this is, yeah. This isn't going to be fun. This is, this is not going to be a cakewalk.

00:04:49:03 - 00:05:11:20
Jesse
And I think kind of recognizing like in that moment. Yeah. That, you know, we got in here representing Canada and that it wasn't going to get to trust that we were here on our own merit. But, you know, you see something like a brief as maybe outside of our boundaries as it was. And yeah, kind of recognizing that we're going to need to dig deep.

00:05:11:22 - 00:05:31:22
Jesse
You know, it's it's fun talking about it now, but I was definitely texting a few people, right when we got it. You can definitely see that the decline in like, sanity and just the stress really flow out. So I just want to, I just want to say I appreciate it. Everyone that had to listen to me freak out online.

00:05:32:00 - 00:05:44:02
Alison
Well, and the, being in the solarium, something like 32 degree heat, sunshine takes the whole concept of pressure cooker to a whole other level. Now what was it about the brief that made it so tricky and challenging?

00:05:44:04 - 00:06:21:20
Zoe
I'd have to say that, well, the brief was making an exhibition in India on Indian comic books. But not just that. It's like the history of storytelling or visual storytelling that leads to comic books. So there were so many layers as part of the brief. And on top of that, we had to name it. And I think the naming part was the thing that we were really freaked out about because we're not copywriters by trade, but now we like to pretend that we are because we we,

00:06:21:22 - 00:06:26:14
Zoe
I think we came up with a pretty sick name. Yeah. Go ahead. Jesse.

00:06:26:16 - 00:06:27:00
Jesse
Oh, no, no.

00:06:27:03 - 00:06:54:11
Jesse
No, I mean, it's it's exactly that I think in the Canadian for the Canadian portion of the Young Lions competition, the brief was around a biking event. That was something like a lot of, you know, experience with attending bike events. It was a space that I was really comfortable and interested in. So we kind of felt, you know, leading into that, that maybe we got lucky or that, you know, the things just sort of aligned for us to really hit the ground running there.

00:06:54:13 - 00:07:23:06
Jesse
And that just wasn't the case. You know, unfortunately, just recognizing our own paths that just didn't have a ton of cultural touch points to the history of sequential storytelling in India, so that this wasn't going to be something that we just luck into. It was going to be a lot of work. But definitely, you know, on the other side of that, realizing that it was, you know, a super cool and just feel super fortunate for having that opportunity to learn about the space because that was something that we had no idea about going into it.

00:07:23:06 - 00:07:31:16
Jesse
And on the other side now, it's something that I think during the presentation portion, we were like genuinely enthusiastic about championing it because it's incredible.

00:07:31:22 - 00:07:46:18
Alison
Well, that's such a great testament to the profession, because there are times, I've been agency side, I've been brand side, and there are times where you get a client, or you get a brief. It's like, oh, perfect. I have a passion for this. I have an interest for this. But most of the time it's like, okay, that's fascinating.

00:07:46:18 - 00:08:04:07
Alison
I don't know much about the market. I don't know much about the brand. I don't know much about the consumer and how you have to dig in and learn, and the fact that you dug in and learned in a very, very compressed time period and emerge with gold, that has to be even more gratifying. So huge, huge congratulations.

00:08:04:13 - 00:08:05:10
Jesse
Appreciate that.

00:08:05:12 - 00:08:18:17
Alison
So you've shared a bit about the significant creative hurdle that you were encountering with the brief. I'd love to hear, how did you leverage each other's strengths or challenge each other's thinking to overcome it? And Jesse, why don't you kick things off?

00:08:18:18 - 00:08:43:22
Jesse
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think one thing that is maybe unique to our partnership, it was because we were put together as a team under the recommendation of our boss, Hans. A lot of teams designed specifically in Young Lions will be put together because, you know, they're two graphic designers. It's a graphic design competition so, you know, why wouldn't you want two people that are, you know, trained in the same discipline, working together?

00:08:43:22 - 00:09:05:13
Jesse
I think what's unique about our partnership is Zoe's trained in graphic design and I'm a motion designer. So when we approach, thinking, and approach, I guess conceptual identity thinking, we're coming at it from two different angles. I think in the moment there's things that, you know, maybe I'll think are obvious or Zoe we will think is obvious, and maybe the other person misses that.

00:09:05:13 - 00:09:35:22
Jesse
And I think it's nice because it's a bit more of a holistic approach to identity building that other teams, you know, maybe, might not have. So almost immediately, you know, we're thinking about a system larger than maybe what's on the brief. And I think in doing so, we're able to kind of like go big, recognize all the opportunities and then hone it down to sort of sort of what is the core idea and then hit the ground there.

00:09:36:00 - 00:09:38:08
Jesse
And I think that's kind of how we started.

00:09:38:10 - 00:09:54:15
Alison
It is super helpful to have different perspectives. And to your point, like really, it really helped broaden your approach and your thinking. Now, Zoe, you mentioned earlier that you also now can count yourselves as copywriters because part of this was coming up with the name and you said it was a sick name. So what was the name?

00:09:56:11 - 00:10:20:15
Zoe
Yeah, the name was IN FRAME, and I actually have to give credit to Jesse because he came up with this, in the sense that IN is like the shorthand for India and then frames is kind of like the device that are used within comic books, like the paneling and then the whole system is based around bringing Indian comic books centre frame.

00:10:20:17 - 00:10:35:09
Zoe
So then we have the comics and the, the artwork living within the IN as a framing device. So it's like this kind of full circle kind of identity within that. So that, that's definitely goes out to Jesse's IN.

00:10:35:11 - 00:10:35:23
Jesse
I mean,

00:10:36:00 - 00:11:04:05
Jesse
I'll say it's a, it's a 50/50 thing. I, when we first got the brief, when we left the Palais and we were walking back to our hotel. Yeah, we just started brainstorming. I think it's not a uncommon thing for people to recommend walking and brainstorming as like a really fruitful method for the idea building. And one of the ways they were defining this history of comics and visual storytelling was referred to as sequential storytelling.

00:11:04:07 - 00:11:20:04
Jesse
So I really locked on to just, you know, how many, what sort of phrases does it, sequence or sequential come up in? So I think I had a working title called IN Sequence that was, I think maybe what we, and then we split apart when we got to the hotel for about an hour to do some brainstorming.

00:11:20:04 - 00:11:32:09
Jesse
And then when I came back, Zoe, you were the one that had mentioned that you'd seen frame come up so much. So I think from there we kind of, it was a, it was a, it was a team effort. I did not want to take full credit for that.

00:11:32:10 - 00:11:34:22
Zoe
One word each.

00:11:35:00 - 00:11:39:19
Jesse
Exactly! And actually if we're going by word, by a letter count, you actually did more work.

00:11:39:19 - 00:11:42:20
Zoe
Letter count,  yeah.

00:11:42:22 - 00:12:01:10
Alison
And for our listeners, I know they're going to want to see the work, so we will link in the comments so that they can actually see your Gold Lion and your work as well. So looking back at the work, with just a little bit of distance, what's one element or specific design choice that you believe really elevated your entry above the rest?

00:12:01:12 - 00:12:29:16
Zoe
I think there's two pieces. There is a moment where we were dealing with like the system, and we had this framing device that we were excited about, but then Jesse discovered that underneath the N, there's this notch. And what happens is that there was an ability or an opportunity to put a speech bubble underneath it, which is very common within comic book storytelling, is the the speech bubble on and all that kind of stuff.

00:12:29:16 - 00:12:59:22
Zoe
And we had this opportunity to put the artwork within the framing device, but then also have them talking. And so we were able to have the characters speak within the system, which felt like really playful and interesting and, and no one else used speech bubbles at all, which I was surprised within any of the other work. So I think that was our first unlocking moment of making something really interesting and robust within a system.

00:13:00:04 - 00:13:23:05
Zoe
And then, we were the only like, from what I could tell the team that had motion or it had a robust motion system. So I think that was like the cherry on top was having this system that had something that was interesting with the speech bubble and then layering on top this like very great motion system as an aside.

00:13:23:07 - 00:13:53:12
Jesse
Doing the motion system, like, that was super fun. And I do, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't disagree that is definitely maybe a differentiation point in comparison. But I do think our ability to work and iterate quickly just allowed us to sort of spin out so many different options so quickly that, you know, then when we were presenting to the judges, we weren't feeling like, you know, this is the, this is the idea we came up with 11 this morning and it's the best thing that we could do.

00:13:53:14 - 00:14:18:12
Jesse
I think an approach that our company Rethink really champions, that our bosses really champion, is this idea of, you know, 1 or 100. So you don't know if your first idea or your hundredth idea is the best one. And the only way to find out is to make 100 ideas. So in that, we were, you know, able to kind of build out, I don't want to say we didn't do 100 ideas, but I think, you know, we we went easy on ourselves.

00:14:18:12 - 00:14:43:11
Jesse
It was 24 hours. So, but there were, you know, multiple different inroads. And I think recognizing pretty early on just because of our, the speed that we're able to work out, that the idea that we were presenting wasn't the only thing we'd come up with. It was the best idea that we'd come up with. So there's a confidence that comes from that, and it's an approach that I don't know is reflected in other aspects of the industry.

00:14:43:13 - 00:14:45:10
Jesse
So super grateful for that.

00:14:45:12 - 00:15:07:09
Alison
That iterative approach certainly has served Rethink incredibly well on the 5th year, 5th year in a row, I believe, at Cannes, being the independent agency. So it's definitely serving you and the organization incredibly well. So in going through all of that iteration, how obvious was it to both of you that this idea was the winning idea?

00:15:07:11 - 00:15:26:00
Zoe
I don't know if it was obvious to me at that point. I think Jesse was like, he he knew. He had the feeling. He was like, oh, we did it. We nailed it. And I don't know if I was more, not pessimistic, but like, unsure. I was like, I don't know, like this is a global stage. Like, who knows?

00:15:26:00 - 00:15:50:00
Zoe
Like someone could have just like come out at it at a totally different angle and like, so I was a bit unsure. And I think it was mostly because it felt like the subject matter was just so different from what we've dealt with in the past. So it was like, I think when we were watching everyone at the, at the end, at the terrace, when they were doing the big reveal.

00:15:50:04 - 00:16:10:05
Zoe
I think that's when it kind of set in. Then I was like, okay, like, maybe we have a chance and then we got shortlisted and then we're like, oh, okay, I think, I think we might have won. So that was like, it took me some time to like go around until I felt more confident with it.

00:16:10:07 - 00:16:32:06
Jesse
I think I also don't want to act like I'm the not pessimistic one because, our work that we won the Canadian Division with, I was very like, basically until we submitted it, I was like, I don't see the I don't see this like it's it's interesting, but I don't see what's so good about it. So I would say we're 50/50 on...

00:16:32:08 - 00:16:52:01
Jesse
And I mean that's good. I think that's you know, that's sort of, you know, having someone like a partner that's checking you in that way and pushing you. Like when we were in Cannes, that was making me advocate for the importance of what we were hitting on. The strength of the idea. You know, if someone says, you know, I don't I don't really see this,

00:16:52:03 - 00:17:19:13
Jesse
That's something that you immediately, it forces you to advocate for the idea. And I know that was, you know, it really helped, even later into the presentation portion crystallize what was special in my mind about the whole thing. And the whole identity. And I think this was the case for the Canadian portion where I felt like, Zoe, you definitely had a way better vision for what it was going to be, but I was the one that was sort of saying, like, I don't see this.

00:17:19:13 - 00:17:34:05
Jesse
I don't, I don't get it yet. But like I, and I think that's the thing and I think this is a great example, you know, like a good team is that, you know, I didn't see it, but I trusted you and it worked out all right. And I think you trusted me. Maybe you didn't actually, I don't know, until we won.

00:17:34:05 - 00:17:34:19
Jesse
You're like, okay.

00:17:34:23 - 00:17:56:07
Zoe
We were out of time at that point, I had to trust you. No, I think that Jesse's like, right on. I think half of, like, the competition is like, you have to have a good rapport with your teammate. And like, we have a lot of trust and like, faith with each other that we can kind of like, you know, say the thing, which I think is really important.

00:17:56:08 - 00:18:14:18
Zoe
Like, we already had this like established relationship and like, we were like buddy, buddy, like all Cannes and like had a great time. And I think that's like, that's half the battle. It's just like making sure that you and your, your partner in this are like, good.

00:18:14:20 - 00:18:37:00
Jesse
Oh goodness. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't imagine doing such a stressful competition, and you know, working with someone that isn't, that isn't enjoying some aspect or isn't like able to see the lightness in how intense and like just just being able to have a laugh during this whole thing. Yeah. It's so important.

00:18:37:02 - 00:19:01:13
Zoe
Yeah. I was gonna say that we had like, our windows open and we were doing it at the hotel, like the whole competition within that 24 hours. And apparently one of the other Canadians that were also at their hotel could just, like, hear us laughing all night. But he said it was a good thing because it made them like, I don't know, just like feel at least someone was happy because I think they were having a stressful moment.

00:19:01:15 - 00:19:10:02
Zoe
We were just like obnoxiously laughing all night. So hopefully we didn't keep anyone up in the hotel too much.

00:19:10:04 - 00:19:31:18
Alison
You both share such powerful ingredients for a successful partnership. Absolutely trust, having the familiarity and respect for each other's expertise, and being willing to call each other on stuff and say, you know what? I don't get it. Yeah. Why do you why are you so sold on this particular concept? And Jesse, to your point, that helps you sort of streamline and focus your thinking on why do I think this is so great

00:19:31:18 - 00:19:48:01
Alison
if Zoe's not seeing it yet. And then humour, like in the in the biggest adversity, when you're under the most intense pressure, being able to laugh and just have that emotional release and remind yourself, it's like, yeah, this is stressful, but we're in the south of France competing for like the Young Lions competition on a global stage.

00:19:48:01 - 00:20:09:09
Alison
It's pretty damn good too. So just to remind yourselves of that, it sounds like those were all amazing ingredients that contributed to your success. So I was in the auditorium when your win was announced. So I was a thrilled Canadian. But I'd love to hear from you what it was like when you heard you won.

00:20:09:11 - 00:20:18:04
Zoe
I think it was a very visceral experience. It was a full body. Jesse screamed. 

00:20:18:06 - 00:20:37:09
Jesse
Yeah. I got like really, really excited. I do want to go on record, if there's anyone that I like punched in the back of the head to, like, get through the crowd, I just want to say I'm sorry. I kind of had blinders on and we didn't position ourselves well in the group. So we were like, right in the thick of things.

00:20:37:09 - 00:20:49:03
Jesse
And I think maybe me shouting really loudly sort of spooked a couple people. So everyone was kind of turning around and like, I knew where we needed to be. So I was clawing my way through the crowd.

00:20:49:05 - 00:20:54:06
Zoe
And I was just right behind him, so I didn't have to deal with any of that, which was nice.

00:20:54:08 - 00:21:07:17
Jesse
I want to go on record and apologize to any of the other countries that we might have, physically tapped along the way. I appreciate you, and I hope you understand. And you're welcome to come visit us in Canada whenever you like.

00:21:07:19 - 00:21:14:09
Alison
I think they will more than understand. And you were a very polite Canadian with that answer. So what have you done to celebrate the.

00:21:14:15 - 00:21:41:13
Jesse
Something that we recognized is that we're both, like pretty, we both enjoy habit and routine. And I think, you know, having like a consistent routine, at least in the day to day, is one of the things I see is like being effective to coming up with, you know, good ideas and good creativity. Sort of removing the friction points, all other aspects of life. You know, I mean, obviously this is dependant. Unfortunately, we did operate the exact same in Cannes.

00:21:41:15 - 00:21:50:14
Jesse
So we ate at the same sandwich place. And when I say like, sandwich place, it was a bar that like served a sandwich that we just found on the first day.

00:21:50:14 - 00:21:51:20
Zoe
It was a panini.

00:21:51:23 - 00:22:10:18
Jesse
It was a panini. Sorry. It was a panini. So we ate there, what, like 4 to 5 days of the seven days we were there. So we knew that when we won, we had to go back and tell the guy that we've won and eat a celebratory sandwich. So that was, that was the immediate thing. And, you know, he was he was excited.

00:22:10:18 - 00:22:14:08
Jesse
I don't think he really got what was going on. But you know.

00:22:14:09 - 00:22:29:17
Zoe
We like celebrated him. His name was Benjamin. And we came in like every day and was like, hey. But I think like he just like accepted that we arrived and like, liked him. But yeah, I don't know. He was just like, I'm just doing my job.

00:22:29:18 - 00:22:47:17
Jesse
Yeah, we were sort of forcing our personalities on this guy. I think we really built him up to be a real figure in our lives during our time there, and he, you know, was happy that we paid the €8 for a panini, but probably couldn't have cared less. No, he was happy that we were there to celebrate.

00:22:47:22 - 00:22:52:14
Jesse
So that was, yeah, the immediate thing. And then obviously, you know, calling our partners.

00:22:52:16 - 00:23:02:01
Alison
I love the celebratory panini. And you created that like daily touchpoint, right. Like that's, way to go Ben for having a role in Canada's gold.

00:23:02:01 - 00:23:06:14
Jesse
He's alive in our heart. He's an honorary Canadian. Whenever he wants to come here, happily celebrate that guy?

00:23:06:19 - 00:23:08:16
Alison
You're gonna have a lot of visitors.

00:23:08:18 - 00:23:12:06
Jesse
I'm excited. It's, It's a beautiful country, I love to show it off.

00:23:12:09 - 00:23:19:06
Alison
I couldn't agree more. So what have you learned about yourselves going through this process that you will carry forward in your careers?

00:23:19:08 - 00:23:55:23
Zoe
I think the biggest thing that really helped us with the win was distilling the idea into, like, one thing and making the case for it in the presentation. I think we didn't understand the value of like the presentation aspect before going in, until we did some of the boot camps with The Globe and Mail. So I think like distilling the idea into like this one thing and then framing like the colour, the type and like everything back to that main point was such a great way to sell it.

00:23:56:01 - 00:24:20:17
Zoe
And I think that's really what helped us in the end, was having just such a like, easy thing to understand. And I think that is one piece in terms of the process I want to like keep doing throughout all our projects, because I think it just makes it way more understandable for people. Like I imagine with like clients and stuff, who maybe don't work with that stuff all the time in terms of design.

00:24:20:19 - 00:24:23:07
Zoe
But that's probably the biggest piece for me at least.

00:24:23:09 - 00:24:46:04
Jesse
Yeah. And I think on my end, which is speaking as a motion graphics designer, like it's, it's a role that's traditionally more technical focused. And I sort of expected for my career, you know, a large portion of my career, I would basically just be, you know, making, being told what to make being. Yeah, serving a more technical role in a production capacity.

00:24:46:06 - 00:25:15:21
Jesse
I think this entire experience has made me recognize that I have a real capacity for, you know, getting up and advocating for the importance of design, the importance of motion in identity systems, and really just recognizing my own enthusiasm for what I do and what we do. So, yeah, really building a lot of confidence from that. And I say this in that, you know, I think it's something that our boss has seen in us the entire time.

00:25:15:21 - 00:25:50:18
Jesse
I think it unfortunately can take, you know, winning something like that. You know, you can, someone can tell you that, you know, you should be doing these things. But it's opportunities like this that make you realize your own ability to kind of push past, you know, your comfort zone. I don't know why I wasn't thinking it was something I was able to do, but, you know, forcing yourself to get up in front of a group of people nationally and then internationally and advocate for the importance of something you've made, the confidence that comes from that and the confidence that comes from honestly winning, shortlisting, just being there is huge.

00:25:50:19 - 00:26:07:06
Jesse
And I yeah, I really recommend anyone who, you know, thinks that they might not be able to do that or that might not be something that they'd be interested in or just doesn't sound like them, to give it a go, because there's really the only way to find out is by doing it. And that's sort of my case.

00:26:07:06 - 00:26:10:13
Jesse
I, I didn't know I had it in me, and it's fun now.

00:26:10:15 - 00:26:47:01
Alison
That's great advice and Jesse, it's a great for your career. It's also great for the Canadian advertising profession that you now realize it's not just about you executing other people's ideas. You clearly are incredibly capable of coming up with great creativity on your own and in partnership with Zoe. So that's amazing to hear. And then Zoe your call out about the Globe and Mail Boot Camps, I love the role the Globe is playing in really helping nurture amazing talent like the two of you and across the broad marketing ecosystem, and helping set you up for success by giving you those boot camps and that training going into the national and the global competitions.

00:26:47:01 - 00:26:49:10
Alison
So huge shout out to the Globe as well.

00:26:49:12 - 00:27:10:05
Jesse
I think they said we were the only, one of the few countries that has one of those boot camp systems before, and I mean, the results speak for itself. I think we were the most medals and the most shortlisted of any of the countries in the Young Lion's competition. So clearly it's paying off. The vision there is clear and it's yeah, super grateful to be a part of it.

00:27:10:07 - 00:27:28:10
Alison
That's amazing. Before I let you get on with your busy day, I want to end with a quick question. For all of the aspiring young creatives in Canada who are listening to our episode today, what's the single most important piece of advice that you would offer them about cultivating a mindset that can help lead to breakthrough creative work?

00:27:28:12 - 00:27:55:14
Zoe
I would say believe that you can, I think is the biggest thing is that, some people and I've definitely found myself doing this is where you, like, cut yourself short or you don't apply or you like, don't think you can, so you don't. So I think the biggest piece is like, just try and try to put your stuff in competitions, try competitions, try making those big ideas.

00:27:55:16 - 00:28:02:09
Zoe
And the worst case scenario is that it doesn't land. But at least you have the knowledge to keep trying and doing things.

00:28:02:11 - 00:28:33:15
Jesse
I guess what I would say is really focus on being, this might sound silly, but like being kind to, you know, whoever you're working with, being kind to yourself. It's a super, just the industry in general is so it can be so intense and it can be so unforgiving in aspects. So finding, you know, that kindness, that empathy, if you can carry that, it helps to kind of build a, you know, a team, a network around you.

00:28:33:20 - 00:28:56:02
Jesse
It just makes working with people so much easier. The trust is so much easier developed when you know you can freely pass an idea to someone. and there isn't this fear of criticism. There isn't this fear of being laughed at. Because laughter is important in the whole process, as we talked about. But, you know, if it's borne out of fun and not malice, then it just makes the work so much better.

00:28:56:02 - 00:29:24:18
Jesse
I think we both see our work as like kind of this playful act, and that's all borne out of, you know, a trust and a lightness that I think comes from, you know, having a general empathy for the other person. So it's been, that would that would be what I'd recommend. Like, don't be too serious. There's so many serious people in the world like, what we do is so fun and so cool, just like take a step back and enjoy it.

00:29:24:20 - 00:29:44:22
Alison
They're both excellent pieces of advice and Jesse, I love the be kind to others. I also love be kind to yourself because it is a profession that can be all-consuming. It's a ton of fun. We're so lucky and privileged to do what we do, and there is an intensity and a competitiveness to it. And we can often be really hard on ourselves and 

00:29:44:22 - 00:30:05:20
Alison
In some ways, that's what makes us all successful. But you also have to be kind to yourself and cut yourself some slack. And then Zoe, you calling out, put yourself out there. Try. Experiment. It's not always going to end up in the Gold Lion, but every time you put yourself out there and try something new and submit, work for creatives or raise your hand for a new opportunity, you're going to learn from that.

00:30:05:20 - 00:30:24:07
Alison
And that's true for anyone in the creative side of our profession. It's true for anyone in our profession, whether they're on the media side, the brand side. That is the best way to grow your career and to grow your skill set and to ultimately thrive. So Zoe and Jesse, it has been an absolute thrill to have you both on the CMA Connect podcast.

00:30:24:09 - 00:30:28:17
Alison
Congratulations again, and I'm really looking forward to what comes next for both of you.

00:30:28:19 - 00:30:29:06
Jesse
Thank you so much.

00:30:29:06 - 00:30:29:16
Zoe
Thank you.

00:30:29:17 - 00:30:32:02
Jesse
Thank you. I appreciate being here.

00:30:32:04 - 00:30:38:18
Alison
Really great conversation, you guys.

00:30:38:20 - 00:30:51:09
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Broadcasting live from Cannes Lions 2025, CMA CEO Alison Simpson discusses Bob Park's (Chief Brand Officer for GE, Cafe, Monogram and Haier Appliances in Canada) bold decision to increase sponsorship of Canada Soccer amid multiple scandals. The condition? Complete equality for the women's soccer program. This purpose-driven stance delivered social change (equal pay for women's soccer) and business results (75% website traffic increase), taking GE's "good things for life" mantra further as "good things for everyone."

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:10:18
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:10:20 - 00:00:13:19
Video
We are announcing that we are building a women's professional soccer league in Canada. GE Appliances to supporting women's soccer, it's phenomenal. It changes women's
and girls' lives.

00:00:31:15 - 00:01:01:10
Bob 
Um, It still chokes me up. That thing, where we were faced with a real dilemma at GE. A number of the corporate partners of Canada Soccer, our governing, national soccer organization, had pulled out of sponsorship because of these, scandals and issues that were affecting the organization. But, and I had about a week to think about it.

00:01:01:12 - 00:01:25:02
Bob
And obviously, from a corporate standpoint, it would make the most sense to just simply, pull our funding. We always have clauses in our contract, that say, if this happens, you can pull out. But I thought about it and I thought, about, back to our purpose. And our purpose is really, as GE Appliances, we want to support the community.

00:01:25:02 - 00:01:49:13
Bob
We, our motto is "good things for life", and that means good things for everyone. How can we support Canada Soccer, which, soccer in Canada, the beautiful game in Canada and then pull out of backing financially the number one organization in the country. No matter how small it is, no matter what it is that you're doing, bring the change that you want to see in the world.

00:01:49:15 - 00:01:56:10
Bob
And after that, great things happen. Thank you very much. You.

00:01:56:12 - 00:02:26:23
Alison
In today's episode, we're diving into a story that is literally minutes ago, fresh on the stage from the prestigious Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity. We're exploring how innovative brand partnerships are reshaping the landscape for brands and sport marketing in Canada, and also really driving social change and important differences in our community and in equity in this case. So I'm thrilled to be joined by Bob Park, Chief Brand Officer for GE, Cafe, Monogram and Haier Appliances in Canada.

00:02:27:01 - 00:02:49:00
Alison
Bob is in Cannes, where he presented as part of the Changemakers series, which has been a very inspiring session where marketers around the world that are renowned for driving important societal change and building brands and businesses have been invited to speak. And Bob, you did a phenomenal job. So thank you for representing Canada so well. 

Bob
Thank you. 

Alison
And now we're going to dive into some questions.

00:02:49:00 - 00:03:10:13
Alison
And he's going to share, what he shared in Cannes and answer some of our questions around it. So Bob, it's an absolute a pleasure to have you with me today. Why don't you start, by talking a bit about GE Appliances Canada entered into a multi-year partnership with Canada Soccer in 2022. Now you were surprised by a big, unexpected press issue.

00:03:10:13 - 00:03:35:14
Alison
And anytime you enter into a sponsorship, there's always potential that things will go awry. Yet when things went awry, you stayed through it and absolutely continue to have a partnership and evolved your approach. So it's a very inspiring story. The audience at Cannes were riveted, so I'd love you to share with our CMA Connect audience a bit about the sponsorship, what happened and why you continue to support Canada Soccer.

00:03:35:15 - 00:04:02:11
Bob
I think the first thing I have to do is, go back to, our thinking process or our thought process around, sponsoring soccer in the beginning. And really what it came down to is soccer is the most participated sport in the country. And the reason for that is the barriers to entry for sports like hockey, as an example, are, are it's very expensive to send, if you have any children in hockey.

00:04:02:13 - 00:04:29:03
Bob
It's an extreme, expense. Soccer is the one sport that, despite whatever your family's economic condition is, almost any family can afford to participate in. And a large percentage of of the kids and families participating in soccer are GE consumers either now or down the road. So that made a lot of sense. The other thing that we really liked about soccer is it's a very diverse sport. 

00:04:29:03 - 00:04:50:11
Bob
Worldwide, it is also the most participated sport in the world, and it's phenomenal how accepted it is. No matter what country you go, we're in France now, and, and it's called football here. And I was just talking to a couple of people getting off the stage of how much they loved the game. So Canada, believe it or not, the fastest growing sport is soccer.

00:04:50:11 - 00:05:11:01
Bob
More people are playing soccer than ever before. Our major league teams are getting much more attention, and our national team. So it was a kind of a no-brainer knowing that World Cup is coming next year in 2026. You know, we had decided in 2019, how do we, how do we leverage that? How do we how do we approach our consumer?

00:05:11:01 - 00:05:45:09
Bob
And it was to get involved with major league teams in Canada, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, and finally, really the crown jewel was Canada Soccer because we wanted to support our national teams, both, men and women. And of course, all the all the, grassroots programs across the country. Unfortunately, what had happened was, a number of different scandals, of which, a lot of the sponsors for Canada Soccer, in fact, had pulled out and and found it to be, untenable to maintain a relationship.

00:05:45:09 - 00:06:15:20
Bob
And that was, you know, due to a few different, things that had happened. But probably the most prominent was, the women's soccer team going on strike, because of really unfair agreements or conditions as compared to the men's team. So an example of that was, they were having the 2023 Women's World Cup in Australia, and many of the women's players had to pay for their own plane tickets to go to the World Cup.

00:06:15:22 - 00:06:25:09
Bob
That's entirely unheard of for virtually any country, much less Canada, where obviously the men's team were fully funded.

00:06:25:11 - 00:06:27:03
Alison
And which team was performing significantly better?

00:06:27:05 - 00:06:50:12
Bob
Yeah, the the women's team was challenging. They'd won a gold medal. Definitely one of the top teams in the world. So it really didn't make a lot of sense. And, the women rightfully, protested it. They kept playing their games but they donned purple shirts and really made it public. So as a brand that damaged our brand significantly.

00:06:50:18 - 00:07:14:14
Bob
And any brand associated with Canada Soccer, because if you don't stand for that, it's going to do damage and you get social media inquiries and all, all types of questions around, why are you sponsoring this? Why is GE a part of, this terrible thing that is happening over at Canada Soccer? So I had about a week and I really thought about it.

00:07:14:14 - 00:07:51:06
Bob
And I had the opportunity because it is a clause in most, sponsorship contracts to actually withdraw. And big names had already withdrawn their support of Canada Soccer, which is, predominantly financial and significant amounts of support. We are one of the largest sponsors of Canada Soccer. So it was really a crossroads. And the one thing that really ran through my mind was that, if I withdraw support, I'm actually truly withdrawing support from both the men's, women's and grassroots programs.

00:07:51:08 - 00:08:15:20
Bob
And essentially what that does is, although I'm doing it in, I guess, protest of how they were treating the women's team, I'm, I'm completely dropping the funding as well. So that actually wasn't a winning situation for anybody. I thought and I thought about it. And finally we came up with the idea to write an open letter.

00:08:15:21 - 00:08:39:06
Bob
So we wrote an open letter, and we distributed that  across all, media, online, etc. and it got picked up by a number of different publications - sports, Globe and Mail, TSN, etc. and what the letter had said was the letter was, was from me. And what it said was, I'm actually going to, give more money to Canada Soccer, which was kind of odd.

00:08:39:06 - 00:09:04:02
Bob
I was going in the reverse direction. However, it came with a caveat, and the caveat was that that money was to go to specific programs that we agreed to and outlined, for example, trainers for the women's team, flights being paid for, etc., etc. It was all earmarked for the women's soccer program. That got me some calls.

00:09:04:02 - 00:09:29:12
Bob
It actually got me some calls from the CEO and Headquarters and they were wondering, what I was doing and, I explained it to them that, that this is what our brand stands for, and this is the only way to maintain our commitment and our purpose, but still show that GE does not accept inequity.

00:09:29:14 - 00:09:50:17
Bob
Our brand is not meant that way. And this is not acceptable to us, but we don't want to pull support of our hugely successful men's and women's programs. So a little bit of touchy, touchiness there, bit touch and go. But then finally, it actually paid off. Fast forward, months later, the women received an equal program.

00:09:50:17 - 00:10:24:09
Bob
They received equal pay. They are now on equal terms with, with the men's team. And and you could see now, it spiraled into Women's League, just, Women's Northern Super League just started in Canada. The game is changing just like it is for basketball and, and hockey and women's sports. So, you know, the Changemaker Series is really creating a spark and doing small things that can add up to eventually becoming something big.

00:10:24:10 - 00:10:48:01
Alison
And you describe it as a small thing. But from where I'm sitting, it is anything but a small thing on a bunch of levels. So first, you're betting your personal brand and reputation and to some degree, your job on this. It's a very bold move. And when you were on stage at Cannes, you talked about the crucial role being bold plays and you embody that and this decision and then this approach.

00:10:48:03 - 00:11:05:14
Alison
I'm also curious to hear how you sold that through, like getting getting a call from the CEO of the global organization absolutely gets your attention. And I'm curious to hear how you sold it through, and at any point, did you question whether you should be pursuing this or not?

00:11:05:15 - 00:11:32:22
Bob
Okay. So I'll answer the sold it through. Well, the the truth of the matter is, the good thing about my organization is that I'm granted a lot of autonomy. So I didn't really have to sell it through. I just explained what I was doing and why, and there wasn't any objection. I don't think that the gravity of what it was was really understood at the time, because nobody knew what would... nobody have,

00:11:32:22 - 00:11:54:21
Bob
no media outlet might have picked it up like, but I, I really talked about it as a move, really advertising that, GE doesn't stand for that. But we don't want to withdraw our support of Canada. So I thought it was a win-win when I sold it through. And I still think it's a win-win for everyone now, today.

00:11:54:21 - 00:12:21:16
Bob
And and now that it's easy to say it now because the numbers and everything proved it. But back at that time, I did believe in it. And really the reason why, so answering the second question, that I believe in it, is that it goes back to what does your brand stand for? What does GE mean to people? Our mantra is, good things for life and taking that a step further, it's good things for everyone.

00:12:21:18 - 00:12:54:20
Bob
Everyone, every family in Canada needs home appliances. So we, we sell our products to everyone up and down the gamut. Every culture that comes to Canada, new immigrants,  newcomers, whether you're transgender, homosexual, it really is irrelevant to us. Everyone needs them. So we have to be that brand. We have to equally represent everyone in that spectrum.

00:12:54:22 - 00:13:10:21
Bob
Because they're all GE consumers. So to me, running with a purpose like that and what we what the brand means it, it kind of was a no-brainer. So, maybe it was a little foolhardy, but we did it.

00:13:10:23 - 00:13:27:16
Alison
You've embodied being bold and brave in your move, you've made a significant difference for soccer in Canada, women in particular. So I'd love to hear on a personal note, how did it feel when you found out that your efforts led to the women getting equal rights, including equal pay?

00:13:27:18 - 00:14:01:04
Bob
That is huge to me. I think, I, I, I played a lot of sports when I was younger. And, you know, any kid that's ever picked up a hockey stick or a football or a soccer ball, etc., you always have those dreams of game seven over time and being something in sports and, in my own small way, I think personally speaking, I was able to contribute and any success that, the women's team has, I feel a very small part of it.

00:14:01:04 - 00:14:40:05
Bob
So it's really it it's it's the passion that that that drives you. It really personally upset me, especially the reason why I bring up that that flight thing that they had to pay for their own flights and they don't they don't have, they didn't have athletic trainers. It really broke my heart in the sense that, we were expecting these players to go out, and for the highest honour, to represent our country and the only other way to represent our country in that in such a manner is is going to war.

00:14:40:05 - 00:15:02:23
Bob
And for that we give so much credit for. But these, these players sacrifice so much. And whether men or women, to represent us, and to not give them the basics, really what it is, to to give them the best opportunity that we possibly can for them to compete is just so, it was such an atrocity to me.

00:15:03:03 - 00:15:22:12
Bob
And then to have it, without equity, was even, was even worse to me. So to be a small part of changing that dynamic was, was a huge impact on us. So seeing them successful and playing and the growth of the women's, women's, Northern Super League is amazing to me. I love it.

00:15:22:14 - 00:15:39:17
Alison
Well, it's incredible to me as a Canadian, when I first heard I, I knew that they weren't getting equal pay, but I had no appreciation that many of them had to work part time jobs to pay for themselves and the fact that they didn't have trainers, didn't have to, had to pay their own flights, and yet were still performing at the level they were,

00:15:39:17 - 00:15:48:21
Alison
and you think you can't help but think if we support them the way we should be, let's see what they can do. So thank you for being, you call it a small part of that, but I give you more credit than that.

00:15:48:22 - 00:15:50:08
Bob
Thank you, thank you.

00:15:50:10 - 00:15:59:08
Alison
Now, as marketers, everything we do is about the brand purpose. It's also about building the business. So I'd love you to share some of the business results too.

00:15:59:10 - 00:16:35:09
Bob
So I think the way that you measure anything obviously, and in our world is definitely sales-based. And really what what marketing essentially, what we're trying to do as marketers is really put ourselves in that in a consideration set. There's so many different digital, KPI and different words that you can use for it. But at the end of the day, whether it's a chocolate bar, a t-shirt, whatever it is, in our case a washing machine or, or a stove, are we in that consideration set when that person comes to that time to purchase?

00:16:35:09 - 00:16:59:15
Bob
And are we able to present why buy GE, in our case? And a lot of cases we're finding, let's say, for example, newcomers coming to Canada, they don't have General Electric here in France. So they're completely unaware of the brand. But they are aware of soccer, and they're fans of soccer. One of the first things they do when they come here is get acclimatized to what's going on with football in Canada.

00:16:59:17 - 00:17:23:09
Bob
So all the background of why we got into this, we did so much research, and we knew that there was an entire market that we could start convincing to become at least someone that would consider a GE appliance and look at it, if not become a purchaser of a GE appliance. That's ultimately in any marketing organization,

00:17:23:09 - 00:17:52:05
Bob
that is what we're trying to accomplish. So, oddly enough, doing purpose-built work like like we did with, with Quinn, the first non-binary, national ambassador of a corporate ambassador, to what we did to support the women's national team, it all paid off, year over year. And heading into 26, exponentially.

00:17:52:07 - 00:18:37:12
Bob
We expect about probably about 75% increase in a research study that we do annually. And it's specifically targeted to, would you, would you consider buying a GE appliance? Would you recommend a GE appliance? Very simple questions. And that number, that statistic, with 12 million soccer fans in Canada, is increasing roughly about 10 to 20% every year, year over year. By 2026, which is the World Cup next year, that 12 million fans is going to become around 20 or 22 million fans, we predict, of soccer because of what a World Cup does when it comes to a nation. We're going to be primed and we're going to be a part of it, and it's simply doing things that are true to our brand identity.

00:18:40:09 - 00:18:46:22
Alison
Well, that 10 to 20% annual increase in those sorts of studies is a significant increase.

00:18:46:23 - 00:19:15:03
Bob
It really, it really is. More than actually what we had budgeted for or what we had forecasted. I was thinking more in the single digits, but it's really, really cool how this stuff really resonated. This, for example, the sport, the women's team, it shot up our website visits by 75% the next month, like literally, after that open letter went out.

00:19:15:03 - 00:19:39:12
Bob
So people now are becoming much more interested and finding out about GE, it's it's where it wasn't in their consideration set before and have that emotional attachment with a soccer fan or a Canadian or a woman that just wants to see women's equity is really something you can't buy. You have to be bold. You have to, you have to do things that are true to your purpose.

00:19:39:14 - 00:20:06:03
Alison
But I also love when it would be reasonable for our audience to say, okay, so why would an appliance company partner with soccer and part of your rationale you just shared is brilliant. Like if soccer is more global than GE is, we are a country of immigrants and newcomers to a large degree, and you saw an opportunity to leverage that to grow the awareness and the affinity for GE. That makes so much sense and great insight.

00:20:06:07 - 00:20:11:16
Bob
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it seemed so logical at the time. Yeah. And it worked out.

00:20:11:17 - 00:20:21:10
Alison
So our audience are, I'm sure, going to be very curious to hear what your plans are, to the degree that you can share them, with soccer leading into 2026.

00:20:21:12 - 00:20:56:01
Bob
So 2026 is so exciting. The reason why, what makes it so exciting is if you think of any sporting event in Canada, whether it's you, your grandparents. In the last 100 years or more, in fact, the existence of Canada, an international sporting event, or in fact, any event of this magnitude, it's never happened. Olympics are definitely, large, but actually the most viewed sporting event in the world is the World Cup.

00:20:56:01 - 00:21:22:15
Bob
It doesn't even come close. It's because it combines so many nations as I said. It's the most widely participated sport in the world. It is exponentially growing in Canada. It's going to be like nothing we've ever seen. It's in two cities, both Vancouver and Toronto, and I think it's going to, and we're all predicting, it's going to bring Canadians together in a very, very meaningful, and special way.

00:21:22:15 - 00:21:51:09
Bob
So to be a part of it, to, be supporting our Canadian athletes as they compete for a World Cup and actually have a very, they just broke the top 30, national rankings. So we have a competitive team. It's going to be extremely exciting. I can't broach exactly what the plans are. The one thing I can share is that we are going to be really focused on 

00:21:51:11 - 00:22:16:16
Bob
exactly what we did with the women's team, or working with Quinn, and all of the things we've done to this point. It's all been about accessibility. The sport is accessible regardless of financial circumstance. It's the most participated sport in Canada. Our doors are open to people like Quinn, non-binary athletes. Our doors are open to women, men, any gender, any culture.

00:22:16:18 - 00:22:35:04
Bob
That's what GE is all about. So we're, we're just going to take that a step further, and we're going to have, in partnership with Canada Soccer, we'll just say, a big, big activation that's going to embody that, into 2026, that, it's going to really capture that spirit.

00:22:35:06 - 00:22:57:05
Alison
Well, I'm excited to see more. And we'll have you back on the podcast when you can share a few more details.

Bob
Perfect. 

Alison
So I'd like to close with two questions. This has been such an inspiring example of understanding your purpose and having the guts to stick to it through really adverse times, both for the organization and the brand, but also for you personally, from a career perspective.

00:22:57:10 - 00:23:04:07
Alison
So what advice and what key learning coming out of this experience, would you share with our audience?

00:23:04:09 - 00:23:30:18
Bob
I think, you know, if I was talking to any marketers or even individuals, as, oh, there we go, it's time to go. (Laughs) As I said, earlier, on stage, it's really about being bold, knowing what your purpose is, and then being bold. So your purpose is really, whether it's personal, whether it's corporate, knowing who you are and what you stand for.

00:23:30:20 - 00:23:52:18
Bob
So for me personally, I knew that that wasn't okay with me personally, what happened with the women's team, but I had to expand that to corporate. And what what would GE do? What is GE? What does GE mean? What is our purpose? And really, once you got down to that, after that there's no point in being timid about it.

00:23:52:20 - 00:24:25:19
Bob
It's really about now let's push this agenda. And if you are genuine, the consumer will realize that. And that's exactly what happened here. We were, we've made bold steps and it paid off in terms of creating a good environment and igniting something at Canada Soccer that drove change. But at the same time, it did a good for our brand because I think consumers realized that, wow, I really like what GE is all about.

00:24:25:19 - 00:24:41:16
Bob
And I really like that GE did something about it. So I think if you have those factors into place, whether it's again personal or corporate, you're going to make change, no matter how small or how big in the world. And it's going to be, positive.

00:24:41:18 - 00:24:44:23
Alison
And incredibly rewarding for the business and I suspect, for you personally.

00:24:45:01 - 00:24:46:07
Bob
Absolutely.

00:24:46:09 - 00:24:59:06
Alison
So I end every podcast, because we always have very senior, successful people on the podcast, I end every podcast by asking you for what's a piece of advice you would give to marketers who aspire to follow in your footsteps?

00:24:59:08 - 00:25:02:11
Bob
First of all, don't follow in my footsteps.

00:25:02:13 - 00:25:04:07
Alison
And why?

00:25:04:09 - 00:25:26:03
Bob
I mean, I think that would go back to my piece of advice. You're going to make a lot of mistakes. I think if you listen and tune in to any, success advice or entrepreneurial advice, it's okay to make mistakes. I think it goes back to that same psychology of being bold. Really.

00:25:26:06 - 00:25:54:03
Bob
Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Ask a lot of questions. Learn. Marketing is such a dynamic field. If you look at marketing from the early 2000s, even to today, the roles themselves have changed. A brand manager, someone in PR, you name it, digitization. And now with AI being the next great frontier, it's changing roles dramatically.

00:25:54:05 - 00:26:27:10
Bob
So you have to be courageous. You have to be bold. You have to ask a lot of questions, and you have to you're going to make mistakes, and you have to be willing to change. Nothing great ever happened in the comfort zone. So prepare to be uncomfortable, and it's actually the people that thrive in that zone that are going to be successful, especially in marketing, because quite frankly, in terms of corporate strategy, business strategy, whether you're agency or brand side, you're leading the way, so be bold.  

00:26:27:10 - 00:26:32:08
Alison
Great advice. And some of my best lessons have been from the mistakes I've made.

00:26:32:12 - 00:26:33:04
Bob
Absolutely.

00:26:33:07 - 00:26:46:03
Alison
There's something about failing that creates memory glue, and you definitely change behaviours and become much more agile in your approach and do what you need to do to avoid and to learn from it. So phenomenal advice.

00:26:46:05 - 00:26:46:17
Bob
Thank you.

00:26:46:19 - 00:26:56:12
Alison
Well Bob, it's been an incredible conversation. Thank you very much for coming literally off the stage at Cannes and spending time with us. And congratulations on a really great presentation. The crows were riveted.

00:26:56:14 - 00:27:02:10
Bob
Thank you very much.

00:27:02:12 - 00:27:15:01
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Broadcasting live from the 2025 Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity, CMA CEO Alison Simpson speaks with Susan Irving (CMO, Kruger Products) and Bryan Kane (CEO, FCB Canada) to discuss FCB Canada's Gold Lion win with SickKids Foundation and why Susan and Bryan keep returning to the festival. From Susan's three C's of Cannes and Bryan identifying areas to lean into, discover the insights shaping the future of marketing, creativity and accountability.

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:10:23
Announcer
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:11:01 - 00:00:32:16
Alison Simpson
Welcome to the CMA Connect podcast. I'm Alison Simpson, and I am thrilled to be joined today by Susan Irving, the chief marketing officer for Kruger Products, and Bryan Kane, the CEO for FCB Canada. And Bryan, we'll start with a huge congratulations. You brought home Canada's first of hopefully many Gold Lions for your work with Sick Kids yesterday. How does it feel to be leading the charge?

00:00:32:18 - 00:00:50:22
Bryan Kane
Well, it was a thrill for the team and everybody back home. There's an interesting thing with Cannes, where there's just a few of us that are here really representing the entire team, but getting the texts flooding in from clients and the rest of the agency was awesome to be able to share that with everybody.

00:00:51:00 - 00:01:02:18
Alison Simpson
And, Susan, I know you've been here in past years. In fact, you judged, I think, two years ago. So how does it feel to be back and have a bit more flexibility in your schedule so you can actually take advantage of the programming?

00:01:02:20 - 00:01:27:17
Susan Irving
It's always great to be here. It's my third year. And I think every year you're really just trying to get used to the craziness. I always say, if you've ever been to Vegas, it's Vegas times 100 for the marketer and creative individual. But it is nice this year not to be locked in a room for three days and being able to take advantage, of all the content.

00:01:28:06 - 00:01:42:03
Susan Irving
If you've been here before, you know that it's just not the content here at the Palais. But then there's all the duelling beaches. So, it's always a struggle. I always tell people, register for everything, and then on the day, decide where you're going to go.

00:01:42:05 - 00:02:01:12
Alison Simpson
So this is my first time back since I was agency side 15 years ago. And how much it has changed the volume of opportunities and calibre of speakers is unbelievable. So Susan, that is really, really good advice. So I'd love to hear from both of you. You've both been here multiple times. What keeps bringing you back? And Bryan, why don't you start?

00:02:01:14 - 00:02:31:15
Bryan Kane
Sure. I think, Cannes does an incredible job of really looking at where the industry is going. So it's an opportunity to come together, as you mentioned, with, like, world class speakers. The content's incredible. But it's very forward-looking. So it's really a week where you can take a step back, reflect. And at the end of the day, it's also an opportunity to sharpen your tools where you get to take a step out of the business and really focus on learning and identifying those things that you need to to really lean into.

00:02:31:16 - 00:02:38:02
Bryan Kane
So when you come home, you've got a really clear focus on what the keys are that you need to be looking at.

00:02:38:04 - 00:02:59:00
Susan Irving
Yeah. Well said Bryan, if for me, you know, as a marketer, you think about the four P's, I think about it as the three C's of Cannes. Being the creative, the content and the connections that you make here. And, as Bryan said, it really is the time to to listen and get different perspectives on different businesses.

00:02:59:03 - 00:03:19:21
Susan Irving
Listen to where the industry's going. And sit back and figure out what is then applicable to that, to your business. It just gives you so much hope and optimism and inspiration to see so much creativity across the board. And again, how do you bring it home to inspire your own teams and your own agencies? To get to great work.

00:03:19:23 - 00:03:21:16
Bryan Kane
With.

00:03:21:18 - 00:03:39:14
Alison Simpson
Very well said. And being live in Cannes means you're going to hear lots of background noise too. So that's just indicative of the level of energy that we're all surrounded by. So we're only on a couple of days into the festival, so it's still early, but I'd love to hear a particular key takeaway that you have or a presentation that really resonated with you.

00:03:39:14 - 00:03:41:10
Alison Simpson
Susan, do you want to start?

00:03:41:12 - 00:04:16:18
Susan Irving
Cannes was kicked off with some marketer of the year, which was Apple. And, you know, they're just a phenomenal organization. When you look at creativity and, you know, really thinking about hope and optimism and the fact that AI is is a big trend yet again. But really talking about, human emotion. And I can't deliver human connectivity and emotion and the way that Apple is just innovating and stepping forward, that constantly solving, a human problem or driving a human emotion.

00:04:16:20 - 00:04:54:17
Susan Irving
The second one, we were at Salesforce speech, yesterday. And again, it was Scott Galloway, who always says it like it is, he's quite blunt and straightforward, but the biggest message I got from him was stop thinking about AI as, as a tool and start thinking about it as a collaborator, because when, human detail, and human thought combined with power of AI, your accuracy will be that much higher when you think about it as a collaborator versus a tool.

00:04:55:00 - 00:05:17:03
Bryan Kane
I think from an actual sort of time spent in my first day, there's an opportunity in Cannes, in the basement, where they post all the shortlists in the press for it, so you can really dive into the work. And I just felt my tank getting filled, looking at all this incredible work from around the world and really benchmarking ourselves against the absolute best.

00:05:17:03 - 00:05:37:17
Bryan Kane
Not in a category, not in a country, but just world class work. So the time spent in the basement is something that I cherish and try and make sure I squeeze some some time away as a guilty pleasure, just to sort of soak in the work for sure. I think also like in the context of some of the AI conversations, it's a theme of pretty much every talk.

00:05:38:07 - 00:06:12:04
Bryan Kane
But what I've noticed, the difference between last year and this year is it's really stripped out. AI is being the idea, and it's really how did I help the idea? And really what is the role of AI? And so seeing the progression just in the 12 months since we were here last, has been really interesting. And I think that that continual evolution of us understanding how to harness the power of AI as opposed to it's a checkbox, that we need to integrate within our creative process so that that was sort of a takeaway, but it wasn't one talk, it just the theme, this sort of emerging.

00:06:12:06 - 00:06:30:12
Susan Irving
What just to build on that point was interesting to think about three years ago, the conversations were what is AI and how do I even use it? And even last year it was here's some tools. Here's how you can use it safely. But you're right. This year it's how did you use AI as a tool, to make your creative process better.

00:06:30:12 - 00:06:34:20
Susan Irving
So you're right, it was quite interesting.

00:06:34:21 - 00:06:49:16
Alison Simpson
So you both are clearly immersing yourself in the festival and all the benefits that it brings with it. So I'd love to hear what unexpected insight or new learning that you think will shift either the future of creativity or marketing.

00:06:49:18 - 00:07:08:05
Bryan Kane
I think, one thing that's emerged is the need for optimism in the world. It's come up a couple of different times. It was a theme through the show last night when they were recognizing all the Gold and Grand Prix winners, but as I was sitting with that thought, it was the important role that brands play in our lives.

00:07:08:05 - 00:07:31:01
Bryan Kane
And brands have never been more important to give meaning and cultural context in a world that you know is increasingly chaotic. But that brands can be that anchor point for consumers and the need for optimism within brands, and to find ways to bring joy to people's lives, to help them, save time with something Scott Galloway was talking about.

00:07:31:06 - 00:07:41:16
Bryan Kane
But the role that brands play and the importance was one where, you know, early in the week, but that was a reflection. And I think I'll sit with that through the rest of the week and build out that thought.

00:07:42:19 - 00:08:14:15
Susan Irving
For me, it's also innovation. There seems to be a lot more of a trend, this year on innovation. One of the difference that, the schedule has done, they've now kind of shown you paths, that you can take that I think distills, the schedule a little bit more. But last night at the awards, just even after Bryan Ncbi won gold, they showed, a competition that they have where brands needed to solve, an innovation problem and come up with a solution for the world.

00:08:14:17 - 00:08:25:21
Susan Irving
So again, what's exciting is, is leveraging creativity to come up with future innovation to solve world problems.

00:08:25:23 - 00:08:50:04
Alison Simpson
And so both great insights and Bryan, building on euros, we had CMA's event case for Canada last week. And Kantar shared that only Canadians only think 13% of brands currently understand what their lives are about and the challenges they face, which is a huge opportunity to bring more positivity and purpose and have brands take a more of a leadership role in helping Canadians get to a better place in their lives.

00:08:50:04 - 00:09:04:07
Alison Simpson
So nice to see the parallels. Absolutely. So still early in the week, we'd love to hear from each of you what you're most excited about or looking forward to in the remainder of the week. Who wants to kick us off?

00:09:04:09 - 00:09:20:21
Susan Irving
I think there's a couple of things I always love the award shows. Obviously I think the stats are only 10% get shortlisted. Yeah, it's only 10% get shortlisted from the entries and only 5% three 3 to 5% medal and is.

00:09:20:21 - 00:09:22:01
Bryan Kane
One Grand Prix.

00:09:22:07 - 00:09:41:11
Susan Irving
And point one was the number that he said last night. So I love going to the shows, because you get to see the best of the best and see everything that's been judged. But then secondly, I, I love the speakers. I love going to the CMO, speakers. I love seeing all the celebrities that they have this year, which seems to be a bigger trend.

00:09:41:11 - 00:09:54:06
Susan Irving
We just saw Serena Williams, the Kelce brothers were here. But it's just really understanding the different roles and different elements there are in terms of, you know, driving brand equity.

00:09:54:08 - 00:10:25:22
Bryan Kane
The part of the week that I love again, is sort of rooted in the work, which is in the basement in the bowels of the Palais here. And there's, there's sessions every day, which is inside the jury room where the jury share the deliberation of the work and why one piece was awarded or maybe not, coming in, there's certain pieces that people expect to do really well, but really understanding the insights and how they just tour the work apart to really understand what was the insight, what was the driver and did that translate into the work.

00:10:25:22 - 00:10:57:06
Bryan Kane
And then again, this really critical lens on results. And were these results clearly tied to the work, as opposed to a general business result? And having seen that evolve over the last number of years has been really interesting. The accountability behind the work and really work that is, is proving that creativity is an economic multiplier. And there's a direct straight line, between all the work and the immediate and long term business results.

00:10:57:08 - 00:11:18:06
Alison Simpson
That is a fabulous note to end. Because it helps give our compression even more credibility. We are such a powerful part of building businesses and helping drive Canada's economy, and creativity is absolutely the accelerator for that. So it's wonderful to be learning as you are here, of the very real impact and able to quantify that. So Susan and Bryan, many, many thanks.

00:11:18:06 - 00:11:23:14
Alison Simpson
I know it's an incredibly busy week and you've got a jam packed agenda. And I really appreciate you making time raising.

00:11:23:14 - 00:11:28:10
Bryan Kane
Thank you. So.

00:11:28:12 - 00:11:41:01
Announcer
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

How can marketers harness data-driven insights while navigating privacy and emerging technologies? CMA CEO Alison Simpson welcomes Jan Kestle, founder and President of Environics Analytics, to discuss why data strategies must be enterprise-led, moving from "so what?" insights to "now what?" outcomes. Their conversation covers privacy-compliant collaboration platforms that reveal which advertising works, how privacy compliance enables effective marketing, and AI's role in enhancing data interpretation.

00;00;01;23 - 00;00;06;09
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00;00;22;17 - 00;00;49;16
Alison
Welcome to CMA Connect, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of marketing with industry leaders and innovators. Today, I am absolutely thrilled to welcome a true pioneer in the realms of data, statistics and marketing, Jan Nestle. Jan is the founder and president of Environics Analytics. With over five decades of experience, Jan has been at the forefront of using data and analytics to solve complex business problems and help shape the marketing landscape in Canada and beyond.

00;00;49;18 - 00;01;17;08
Alison
Jan's journey is nothing short of inspirational. From her early days at the Ontario Statistical Centre to founding Environics Analytics in 2003, she is consistently pushed the boundaries of what's possible with data-driven insights. Her contributions to the industry are massive and include developing the Prism Segmentation system and the Envision Business Intelligent platform, tools that have revolutionized how marketers understand and can reach their audiences.

00;01;17;10 - 00;01;42;08
Alison
In recognition of her groundbreaking work. Jan was honoured with the Canadian Marketing Association's Lifetime Achievement Award in 2022, truly cementing her status as a trailblazer in our field. In today's episode, we'll explore Jan's really fascinating career path and discuss a range of topics that are reshaping the marketing landscape. From the evolving role of data and predictive analytics, to solving business problems to navigating data privacy complexities,

00;01;42;10 - 00;02;01;23
Alison
we plan to delve into the future of data-driven marketing. We're also going to touch on AI, enhanced customer journey mapping, ethical considerations and hyper-personalized marketing, and the importance of data sharing and driving business success. There is no shortage of great topics that Jan can speak to, and it is an absolute pleasure, Jan, to welcome you to CMA Connect today.

00;02;01;26 - 00;02;20;00
Jan
Well, thank you very much and thank you for having me. I love working with the CMA. I think the CMA in the past few years has done an incredible job of having conversations that are very important to marketers and to the whole business community in Canada. So it's my pleasure to be with you here today, Alison.

00;02;20;02 - 00;02;40;21
Alison
And well, thank you so much. Jan, I don't use the term pioneer lightly. You've been a pioneer in data statistics in the marketing professions. The fact that you've been a leading innovator in all three is also a sign that you didn't really take a traditional path to your career. You also succeeded as a woman at a time that was, very sadly, very rare.

00;02;40;24 - 00;02;52;23
Alison
And I really find your story inspiring, both from a professional perspective and also from a personal perspective. I know many of our listeners would as well. So I'd love to start by having you share a little bit about your journey.

00;02;52;25 - 00;03;22;06
Jan
Sure. Thank you. Well, sometimes when I think about my long career, which I guess part of what makes me a pioneer is it goes so far back, is I think about three aspects to my career. First of all, as you mentioned, I worked as a government statistician, and then I worked as a sales and product development person and eventually a leader in a company that was well-established and owned by various players in the information business.

00;03;22;08 - 00;03;41;01
Alison
And then finally, in the latter part of my career, actually started a business and built that. And for some people, it's kind of like, well, how did you decide to go from a government job to leading and working in the private sector and then running a pretty interesting business in the private sector? Why did you decide to start your own business?

00;03;41;01 - 00;04;03;13
Jan
And always gives me pause when I think about it that way, because to me, it's been a continuum of figuring out how data and mathematics can really help simulate realities and help people solve problems, whether it's for business or social services or, you know, how we make Canada run better? I've always been excited about being able to use information to do that.

00;04;03;18 - 00;04;32;24
Jan
The truth is, I, I have a degree in applied math, which is kind of like a combination of math and physics, and I graduated in a class of four women out of 140 classmates. And it was difficult, even being, you know, a good student and high in the rankings of my class. It was difficult to to get jobs for women in those scientific, and honestly, in any business in that day and age.

00;04;32;24 - 00;05;04;18
Alison
So I was very excited to take on my first job as a survey statistician and editor in the provincial government. And that was when we didn't even have computers, never mind AI. We put data on spreadsheets that was actual pieces of paper. We edited questionnaires with red pencils. We shared our work with our partner across the table to do QA, and then we added up rows and columns in order to create data that went into large statistical outputs.

00;05;04;18 - 00;05;31;18
JAn
I always say I got really good training on thinking about what the data are telling you and what's missing and what makes sense by being right down in the trenches. Eventually, in that particular role, I moved on to doing a lot of negotiating for the priorities for Ontario and the federal provincial context. But eventually I was leading that organization, and I, I enjoyed very much the work that I got to do in the policy side.

00;05;31;20 - 00;06;03;28
Jan
But my choices for a new challenge were to leave the statistics and the data part of of the work and move into more of a government policy job. But I had the opportunity to go and work for the first company in Canada that took data and demographics and created customized versions of that that businesses could use. Compusearch was the pioneering company in that field, and they'd been around for about 15 years and mainly working for retailers.

00;06;04;00 - 00;06;27;07
Jan
But they started to branch out and they recruited someone who really understood packaged goods, and they understood someone who worked in the financial sector. And they came and recruited me as someone who worked with governments and not-for-profits. And I joined, actually only took me like five days to make a decision to leave my pension and all that government work and take this opportunity.

00;06;27;07 - 00;07;02;23
Jan
And I went into sales and I'd never been in sales. I'd done a lot of business and relationships, but my first job there was selling the data that they had produced back to the government sector, and that was exciting. And led me to an opportunity to work on the product side, is how do we take data and turn it into information, because many organizations can't really invest in building data and doing the work from the ground up. You actually have to turn data into a product or a service that can be actionable, that can make a difference to a community or to a business.

00;07;02;23 - 00;07;26;00
Jan
So I went from being the statistician to being the sales person and understanding my customer's needs, and then going into product, and then eventually to president of that organization during its largest period of growth, which was the time period when people got computers on their desks, desktop computers, we went into desktop mapping. It was just the very beginning.

00;07;26;02 - 00;07;52;06
Jan
It wasn't even the CRM era. It was what we call database marketing. When we were starting to mine data and combine the kind of data that brands had about their customers, quite limited, with the data that we had about postal codes. So I always think, you know, all these parts of this journey really enabled me to think about how to make data help people make good decisions.

00;07;52;08 - 00;08;21;26
Jan
And eventually Compusearch was sold a few times and, and, you know, kind of went the route of what often happens with little businesses when they become successful. They they kind of became a part of selling software. And you know, a more bundled solution. And a few of us had a lot of feedback from our former customers to say, we really want people who focus on the data and the customized solutions or implementing the standard solutions in a customized way.

00;08;21;26 - 00;08;52;21
Jan
And so, you know, the story is pretty well known. I decided to start a new business basically replicating building the data, but also helping people understand how to use the data. And that's what we started Environics Analytics. Our funding came from the traditional market research company, Environics Research, that had built a niche for itself, not only measuring political polling and consumer research, but measuring people's values and psychographics.

00;08;52;21 - 00;09;25;26
Jan
And so they had this idea of bringing those two worlds together. And so Environics and ourselves are a little team of former geo demographers started Environics Analytics. Twenty years, 300 people, you know, a thousand customers and lots of databases and lots of data development. I still feel like we're continuing that legacy of help people take data and turn it into information that enables them to take action that can actually make their organizations more successful and ultimately make people's lives better.

00;09;25;26 - 00;09;49;15
Jan
I think we know data for good. If you use data for health care or education or, you know, not-for-profit, that's considered data for good. But I also think it's data for good if you can get the right messages to the right people at the right time, get the right products on the right shelves, you know, organize people's busy lives so that they can really make good decisions and the data are there for them.

00;09;49;15 - 00;10;18;22
Jan
So that's a bit of a long story, but that's kind of how I went from one data-driven organization to another and ended up building Environics Analytics. And then of course, the last phase of that story was when my partners and I sold the business to BCE, and we're now a Bell- backed company, but we still run an independent company where Bell is a customer and treated on a level playing field with other customers.

00;10;18;24 - 00;10;38;11
Jan
But the great thing about that part of the journey is that they saw the need for Canada to really have a vibrant data business, and they have invested and supported us to continue to offer data and analytics services to the Canadian business community and their customers.

00;10;38;13 - 00;11;01;21
Alison
Their story is so inspiring on so many different levels. There's so much curiosity that you've experienced, there's so much openness to try new things, so much innovation, and having a real vision for where you could take your skills next so I'm inspired on all of those levels. I also love the fact that for someone who started their career before computers existed, there can be a lot of biases around that

00;11;01;21 - 00;11;09;29
Alison
you have to be a digital native to really get technology and to be visionary about technology. And you are such a wonderful example of that as total BS.

00;11;10;05 - 00;11;16;07
Jan
Before we had desktop computers, I have to say we have computers! 

00;11;16;10 - 00;11;38;11
Alison
Good clarification. Well, and you continue to be very tech savvy and leverage technology and being very future focused. So when I think about some of the stereotypes that exist about you have to be a digital native to get it and to lead it, but you're a great example that that's simply not true. And then being one of four woman in a class of 140, to what degree did that experience,

00;11;38;11 - 00;11;43;26
Alison
What skills to that experience give you that you think have benefited you throughout your career?

00;11;43;29 - 00;12;07;00
Jan
Well, throughout my career I've always been sometimes the only or one of the very few women in the room. Even still now, because being at the executive level in businesses and being in businesses that tend to be more tech- oriented, we just have not, we've had progress, but we haven't had enough women get into those jobs and into those levels.

00;12;07;02 - 00;12;31;02
Jan
I think the thing that, you know, you have to have a voice, and I think the most important thing for young women to know is, first of all, now I think they are far more welcomed and appreciated. I think that men in business understand the role that diversity brings to the table. So we talk about diversity in terms of of women in leadership and women in, in certain roles.

00;12;31;02 - 00;12;59;01
Jan
But I think organizations that are committed to promoting women and, you know, fighting racism and fighting all different kinds of discrimination against special populations are really understanding that the talent pool that they're unlocking is tremendously valuable. And you're not leaving half the population or a third of the population, or 10% of the population on the table, by just hiring and promoting the same kind of people.

00;12;59;01 - 00;13;43;16
Jan
So I learned by doing and and, you know, when I think back of the people that I highlighted and promoted in those different organizations, I'm proud of the fact that we always believed in diversity and equity and inclusion. And sometimes it was harder than other times to implement. One of the things that we do a lot of work on now is in the educational community, where we go into universities and we go into colleges and even into high schools and into women's organizations and into STEM  organizations to help people understand how exciting and interesting these jobs are.

00;13;43;18 - 00;14;09;10
Jan
Because sometimes if, you know, you're a high school student and struggling with math, or you might be really interested in geography, you might have no idea what the options are in the data and analytics space for you. You might think it's only coding and IT, but we're hiring a lot of people out of engineering. And you know what, the engineering classes have switched and the engineering classes are sometimes you know the majority are women.

00;14;09;10 - 00;14;21;18
Jan
So through the years, times have changed. But we've also, as a team, stuck to that objective to make sure that you're using the whole talent pool and that you're using it effectively.

00;14;21;20 - 00;14;37;13
Alison
It's another great example of how have you've led and positively impacted the profession. So a huge thank you for that. Now, with your wealth of experience, I know our listeners would absolutely benefit from hearing your views on the pivotal role that data, statistics and software have in helping us solve business problems.

00;14;37;15 - 00;14;57;24
Jan
I remember about ten years ago we did a roadshow. We also like to get out across the country. We would do a breakfast and we'd go to Vancouver and then we'd go to Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, you know, stop in Quebec City and Montreal and then on to Halifax and other places and actually do a roadshow on the things we were doing.

00;14;57;24 - 00;15;28;18
Jan
And I remember being really struck, I want to say about, 2016, when every journal with you Reading Inc. magazine or even Forbes or the Harvard Business Reviews, all the articles were about data-driven decision making. And I used to make a joke to say, well, what the hell else would you do, right? But I also know the extent to which we were selling people sophisticated models to find the best locations for retail sites.

00;15;28;20 - 00;15;54;25
Jan
Or we were looking at, you know, early media, mixed models and channel optimization, looking at ROI across, you know, online and offline advertising. We were doing all this great work, and yet so many people were still using gut feel and the way we used to do it, that inertia and changing to new ways of doing things, is really hard for people.

00;15;54;28 - 00;16;21;17
Jan
And so once more data became available, everyone was talking about using data. What I saw was a lot of organizations investing in data and investing in technology, but I was also very worried throughout the 2000s with a real backlash, which says, well, we're spending all this money on data, we're investing in technology, but is it really making a difference?

00;16;21;19 - 00;16;54;09
Jan
And I think we now are at this stage where there's a lot more recognition that it does make a difference. But I think that it's pivotal if an organization has a data and analytics strategy, and it can't be something that comes from the ground up, even from the marketers, as much as the marketers I 100% support marketers have a role, but the IT department, the actual data scientists, they can't really develop a data strategy.

00;16;54;09 - 00;17;15;17
Jan
It has to come from the business strategy. We have to know what are the problems we're trying to solve and the extent to which even C-suite, the CFO, the CEO, the COO will collaborate with the CTO and the CMO and we say, look, here's all the data we have. Here's what we need to do to harness it. Here's the data we don't have.

00;17;15;17 - 00;17;37;06
Jan
Here's how we can get it. Here are the problems we're trying to solve. But then the other key question is, to what extent can we take this great insight and actually put it into practice? Because the last thing that you want to do if you're in the data business, is produce interesting studies and have people say, so what? You want people to say, now what?

00;17;37;06 - 00;18;04;26
Jan
And the thing that's made a big difference is people's recognition that you design your data strategy and your analytics strategy around your business goals, understanding, how much can you actually go and implement, and how can you tell whether or not it's working? And I'm very excited about the extent to which we see that enterprise perspective, the silos in different parts of organizations being broken down.

00;18;04;26 - 00;18;17;20
Jan
We're not there yet, but I think there's a recognition that there's an enterprise play for data and analytics, and that organizations will do much better when they have a strategy that's led from the top.

00;18;17;23 - 00;18;37;08
Alison
That makes infinite sense. And I love the pivot from instead of it being so what to now what? That strong action orientation is critical for any business and critical for any marketer in order to build the business and build their career. So how do you see the relationship between data analytics and consumer trust evolving in the coming years?

00;18;37;11 - 00;18;58;22
Jan
Well, when we're talking about data and analytics, the biggest application that we work in with marketers is really understanding consumers and creating consumer insight. You know, as much as we produce all this great third party data that comes from external sources and is anonymized and aggregated and delivered at the postal code, and I love the data, it's extremely useful.

00;18;58;22 - 00;19;25;28
Jan
Biggest asset that brands have is the data that they have about their own customers. You know, we now start talking about first party data. And it's, you know, the first party data is the secret to customer engagement and eliminating churn and getting the right message and tailoring the product and the customer journey. And it absolutely is. The data that any organization has about its customers is extremely valuable.

00;19;26;00 - 00;19;50;25
Jan
But those customers give you that data with an expectation that you are going to use that to make your relationship with them better, to make their service more effective. And as we you know, often ask them, can we use your data to partner and to do other things in the data and analytics space that help us do that for you?

00;19;50;25 - 00;20;20;17
Jan
And so when it comes to privacy, my view is that, you know, the principle based laws that say that you do what a reasonable person would reasonably expect, that you have a consistent transparency and consent framework, that you tell people what you intend to do with their data, that you have the right process for them to say yes or to opt out if they choose to.

00;20;20;19 - 00;20;54;29
Jan
But the key thing is that we can be successful and data- driven in Canada, and also honour the commitment that brands make to their customers or their members or their citizens and residents. If you tell people what you're going to do with their data, that you honour that and that you can be data-driven, I don't think there needs to be a contradiction between being, future-proof on privacy and being loyal and safeguarding consumer trust.

00;20;55;01 - 00;21;30;11
Jan
And I think that the examples where we've seen where so-called people use data are bad actors are very few and far between. And I work with hundreds of organizations in Canada who invest a lot of money to ensure that they're doing the right thing, whether it was, you know, in the early implementations of the current legislation, whether we went through CASL, when we were looking at legislative reform, I see businesses working really hard to make sure that they're doing the right thing.

00;21;30;19 - 00;21;49;24
Jan
And I don't think that privacy and regulation stand in the way of being data-driven for Canadian businesses. It's different. In the U.S. I hear from people all the time, oh, well, we can do it this way. We can do it that way. Why can't you do it this way in Canada? Well, how could we ever, you know, I don't want your your summaries of postal code data.

00;21;49;24 - 00;22;15;13
Jan
I want to know actually who went to this store and like that. The reality is, in Canada, we have great data and we have great ways of using third party and first party data. And as a statistician, I assert that we can get an excellent statistical result from the kinds of data that we have that are privacy-compliant, and that we're doing our jobs to make sure that the data that consumers give us are safe.

00;22;15;16 - 00;22;34;19
Alison
And your point around Canadian consumers are increasingly expecting this level of knowledge and personalization and are comfortable sharing their data when they know that they can opt out at any point, when they trust the brand and the business that they're sharing it with, and when there is a value equation and benefits for them.

00;22;34;21 - 00;23;01;20
Jan
The research really supports it. As you know, I'm active in the privacy lobby, and we got our ISO certification on privacy by design, which we did because we knew that the legislation was in flux and we knew that we had to adhere. There's no, it's no use in Canada to say, oh, we're compliant with a law that was passed in 2000 that the whole environment expects a higher standard.

00;23;01;20 - 00;23;36;29
Jan
And this CMA has done a great job of being a voice for that and helping to develop frameworks. And so between the CMA and other important organizations, industry associations, we're regulating and we're having that dialog with the government about what needs to happen. So I'm very optimistic, that Canadians feel good about that. But the truth is that, you know, you know, at Thanksgiving dinner or cocktail party when you say you're in the data business, we have to admit there's still a generalized public perception that this might not be a good thing.

00;23;37;01 - 00;23;58;29
Jan
And so the one thing that I also say is we have to be a voice for data literacy. We have to be a voice for the importance of data. And not just, you know, any data. The data have to be safe from a privacy point of view, but they also have to be safe from a methodology point of view.

00;23;59;01 - 00;24;32;24
Jan
You have to do the right thing. There's like there's a million different ways to create a model and and predict things and simulate reality and, and within the constraints of budgets and timing and privacy and technology., we also have to make sure that we keep our statistical standards high and that the quality of the data people have to be assured of, that people might spend 100,000 or even half $1 million on a research study and a big data and analytics project.

00;24;32;27 - 00;24;52;04
Jan
But then they're going to turn around and they're going to spend millions on bricks and mortar or media campaigns. So when we talk about data and what we should do, we talk about what's legal and what's right, what's ethical, but we also have to talk about what's the highest statistical quality that we can produce as well.

00;24;52;07 - 00;25;06;20
Alison
Great points. So Environics Analytics has been a leader and very good at anticipating where the profession is going. So I'd love to hear what future trends do you foresee in data driven marketing and how is Environics Analytics preparing for them?

00;25;06;22 - 00;25;27;20
Jan
As I mentioned, the biggest trend we see is the desire of organizations to leverage their first party data, but not just to leverage it internally, but to combine it with that of a partner. So, for example, if I'm in the private equity space, I want to look at an acquisition and I want to look at maybe a merger.

00;25;27;20 - 00;25;52;15
Jan
So you might want to take two disparate databases with different sets of consents, and you might want to merge them together to look at the feasibility and the market potential. Or if you're in media, you might want to know my publisher or broadcaster understands who's seeing the actual impressions of an ad. Then I want to know, you know, the extent to which those people actually bought my stuff.

00;25;52;18 - 00;26;16;12
Jan
That might mean that you have to combine the exposure data with purchase data. And then, you know, and the final thing, there's lots of organizations in loyalty and marketing that are really looking to sell each other stuff. So we've been working for a long time at the need in Canada, given our environment, to enable organizations to have a safe collaboration platform.

00;26;16;13 - 00;27;00;10
Jan
And we've invested a lot in what we call clean room technology and identity resolution and data collaboration platforms that are technologically advanced, but that have a governance and an orchestration layer on top of them that are optimized for Canada. So there's global solutions, and we partnered with the leading global provider, LiveRamp of these technologies last year because they have Canadian brands and they have Canadian businesses that are part of global brands, but they wanted to be able to bring these technologies for data blending, aggregation, de-identification reaching, you know, customers through the adtech system with anonymous identifiers and so on.

00;27;00;11 - 00;27;39;14
Jan
They wanted to bring that to Canada, but, you know, they knew what they built for the U.S. would not work in Canada because we don't have those kinds of identity graphs in Canada. And they knew what they built for Europe, which was GDPR-compliant, was probably closer. But there were some nuances in the Canadian marketplace. We had previous they've been investing in building something that we called our EA vault, kind of a homegrown version of that, to help organizations safely blend data and bring our own data into that ecosystem and bring our own methodologies so that we could be confident about the statistical processes.

00;27;39;17 - 00;28;14;13
Jan
So we were very fortunate to enter into a partnership with them and bring their technology and stand it up. We have it all operational and we have a number of customers using it which are helping people blend data and go to market together, but it's also helping marketers measure outcomes, because we're not becoming that measurement bureau. We're helping two organizations bring and exposures and outcomes measurement into a safe place where we can connect them through permissioned identifiers, and we can anonymize the results.

00;28;14;15 - 00;28;38;28
Jan
So, you know the old adage, I know 50% of my advertising works, I just don't know which 50%. We can actually say, for these custom audiences, with these kinds of exposures, through this channel or this screen, this is the lift that you get in terms of actual sales, or walking into my store or combining POS data from another partner, we can actually say, this is what's working.

00;28;38;28 - 00;29;01;17
Jan
This is what you could optimize and do differently. And to me, this is like the future. It's a whole new business for us. And at the beginning it was like, well, we're in the third party data, now we're going to be in the data collaboration space. But now what we're seeing is people who are really interested in doing good analytics want to be able to measure whether or not they're targeting worked.

00;29;01;19 - 00;29;20;22
Jan
And so this is a breakthrough for us in what we call real outcomes, not just measuring reach and frequency, because that's an important part of measurement, but actually saying this part of my advertising worked, these kind of customers that you have, we don't have. If we partner together, here's what our potential is.

00;29;20;24 - 00;29;33;23
Alison
Now, AI is another both disruptor and enabler in marketing and in business overall. So how is Environics Analytics approaching the balance between AI-driven insights and human expertise when it comes to data interpretation?

00;29;33;26 - 00;30;00;24
Jan
So it's a great question. When AI, ChatGPT boomed, we started using a lot of AI tools for making ourselves more efficient. We've been doing machine learning, which is different from the more modern AI, but we've been doing machine learning for decades and developing cluster systems and taking survey data and projecting maybe a 50,000 sample survey to 750,000 postal codes, there's a lot of machine learning algorithms that help with that.

00;30;00;27 - 00;30;44;26
Jan
So but when the new like wave, which are really, you know, new tools and now the next generation of those tools became available, we knew that we had a great opportunity to leverage these tools to help scale. So we are definitely using AI to help write code as we redevelop our envision system. We are using it to do kind of replicable algorithmic processes and data development, but it's important that we continue to work AI tools and the sort of more traditional tools in parallel to understand if we're prompting right, if we're using the data properly. The outcomes from the AI are great if you ask the right questions.

00;30;44;26 - 00;31;10;10
Jan
And what we see is the opportunity to ask questions and then learn what more questions we should be asking gets great results. We are already now using AI to develop some of the actual data solutions, instead of the kind of storytelling and what we would call personification of segments. We went from office automation, code replication, interpretation and storytelling,

00;31;10;15 - 00;31;26;25
Jan
we're now actually exploring how we use it to develop the key databases and some new kinds of databases. But we're cautious enough that we have to see how those results compare to what we got when we did it the traditional way.

00;31;26;27 - 00;31;46;00
Alison
Now, Jan, I know from our earlier conversations that you're a big believer that data hoarding is out and data sharing is in. So how can data sharing in privacy- compliant ways help organizations and marketers in their measurement of results and better understanding which 50% of their advertising and marketing is actually working well.

00;31;46;03 - 00;32;10;13
Jan
You know, if you have a lot of data about your own customers, you can use that to build your business. But if you're part of an ecosystem in the real world and you want to understand, as I mentioned before, growth opportunities through, you know, acquiring or consolidation opportunities, or you want to look at the combination of how I targeted my advertising with who actually bought my stuff.

00;32;10;16 - 00;32;50;15
Jan
You definitely have to be willing to share your data. And I'm not talking about, you know, everybody taking their data and throwing it into some open marketplace. But I'm talking about having frameworks and processes that are more than privacy-compliant and that are affordable and accessible and also easy to use. So the two organizations who decide to share data and blend it and maybe create new data or create, you know, some kind of analytics of results, do it in a way that they can use the technology that we're building because it's expensive and it's complicated.

00;32;50;15 - 00;33;14;07
Jan
So when we embarked on the program that I mentioned before to build a data collaboration service for Canada with clean rooms and identity resolution, we went to the industry and we said, we'll sell you these services, but we also said we'll make these services available to Canadian partners, to ad agencies, to publishers and broadcasters. You can use our clean room as a back office.

00;33;14;07 - 00;33;37;01
Jan
We don't have to be in the forefront of all of that. The reason for that is because we know that, you know, we have productivity challenges in Canada. We want to Canadianize  tools and technology so they work in Canada, but we can't go it alone in the technology space. So when we talk about data sharing, it's to enable all boats to rise.

00;33;37;01 - 00;34;06;26
Jan
Marketers, publishers, platforms, ad agencies. We want to be sure that there is a strong Canadian foundation for data blending to take place in a way that's safe and effective, and that's, you know, the thing that I'm really committed to right now is in building for Canada a collaboration space that other people can use in order to make their businesses more competitive in this tough environment.

00;34;06;28 - 00;34;18;24
Alison
And I know you're in early days of building this, I think you're about a year in now, so without giving away any client confidences, can you share a good example of partnership that's driving results and delivering on the vision?

00;34;18;27 - 00;34;44;23
Jan
Well, we have manufacturers who are asking us to combine, say, connected TV data. So who who had their TV turned on when my ad was actually showing, based on the anonymized connected TV data. So can you combine that with also where the exposures took place in a programmatic campaign? So now we've got, you know, TV data combined with programmatic data.

00;34;44;25 - 00;35;08;20
Jan
And then can we get point of sale data from a retailer and actually show the reach across different channels and different screens and show how different targeted audiences responded? Like how many times do they need to see my ad in order to drive them into the store to buy? How many people go in the store and do they buy, not buy?

00;35;08;20 - 00;35;39;10
Jan
So really true authenticated attribution multiscreen reach and frequency. And then a measurement of did they buy? We actually are doing those projects right now. We're also helping customers who want to understand how to add partners into loyalty programs. If I have this customer base right now, who am I missing? What other kinds of partners in business offers would make my program more attractive?

00;35;39;13 - 00;36;16;16
Jan
And you see the whole loyalty space changing with convenience and gas and grocery and then all these, you know, consolidated. So we are helping these organizations understand how they can improve their reach and their membership by understanding what the synergistic partnerships can be for them. We have, I would say, five marquee customers, big relationships with customers and those kind of major consumer marketing industries who are working with our collaboration and identity solutions through the EA Vault and LiveRamp.

00;36;16;16 - 00;36;38;20
Jan
And then we also done over 30 smaller projects, because people can take all this technology and do it themselves or they can come and ask us to do it for them on a managed-service basis. And so we've done big things and small things in the past year. We've been very excited at the adoption. Of course, we'd like it to be faster.

00;36;38;22 - 00;36;59;09
Jan
I know that the LiveRamp people are saying in the U.S., despite some of the kind of challenges that they've had, you know, really great growth in the past year, I heard somebody say that people at TMU wrote an article a little while ago calling Canada the Hesitation Nation. So we're trying to say, jump in, start collaborating,

00;36;59;09 - 00;37;16;03
Jan
blend your data with someone else's, do this outcomes measurement, so that we can actually, you know, show you how it works. Doesn't have to be a big project. You can start small. And that's kind of what's the most exciting thing that's happened with us in the last year.

00;37;16;06 - 00;37;24;18
Alison
That's a great update on the Hesitation Nation. Overcoming that is also going to be a key part of us for improving our level of productivity as a country too. 

00;37;24;18 - 00;37;42;18
Jan
Well yeah, people say, well, what do you think about the tariffs? What, you know, what are your customers during what should they do. Well, they should understand what data they have. They should understand the problem they're trying to solve. They should think about sharing their data with partners. They should look at, you know, segmentation, targeting and measuring the outcomes.

00;37;42;18 - 00;38;11;09
Jan
In other words, we just need to we have the tools. And in our business, both Compusearch and Environics. We've always had an opportunity to help people in tough times as well as in good times. And so we think right now with what's, you know, many Canadian businesses are facing, that having really good data and analytics solutions is a big part of making our businesses more resilient and more competitive.

00;38;11;09 - 00;38;26;09
Jan
You know, we're going to look for other partnerships. We're going to look to other parts of the world. But right now, data and analytics can really help businesses get the right product message idea to the right people at the right time and see whether it's working or not.

00;38;26;11 - 00;38;44;07
Alison
Well said. Now, Jan, you're incredibly busy and you've been very generous with your time. So I just have one more question and it's a bit of a pivot question before you go. I would love you to close by sharing the top advice that you would give to our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00;38;44;09 - 00;39;05;16
Jan
Well, if you want to follow exactly in my footsteps, you got to be really good at math. But no, leaving that aside, the real thing I think that makes a difference is passion. Figure out what you want to do and make a contribution. People who are very successful in their careers know that what they're doing, whether it's big or small, is making a difference.

00;39;05;18 - 00;39;29;15
Jan
So as an entrepreneur, you run into forks in the road, you have decisions to make. There's no bad decisions. You have a plan. You have a passion. You're driving towards something. You have funding and customer problems. And people say, no, no, no, we can't do that. You know what? You just don't give up. Never give up. Having a passion and finding a way to make it work.

00;39;29;17 - 00;39;56;06
Jan
Obviously you live in the real world, so you have to respond to to pressures. But we can't just change what we're doing. Well, we used to do it the old way. Well, no, we can't do it that way. We have to find a way to implement the things that we think need to be done and tear down the roadblocks and the inertia and the silos that prevent us from realizing what it is that we think will make a difference.

00;39;56;11 - 00;39;59;13
Jan
Because we have to make a difference. We have to show up.

00;39;59;15 - 00;40;14;17
Alison
Well, I think back to the beginning of the podcast where you shared that you were one of four women in a class of 140, you learned very early on that you knew what you wanted to accomplish, you were passionate about it, and you were always going to find a way. And that clearly has served you incredibly well throughout your career.

00;40;14;24 - 00;40;17;16
Alison
So Jan, thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation.

00;40;17;20 - 00;40;22;20
Jan
Thank you. Thank you, Alison, for having me here today.

00;40;22;23 - 00;40;35;10
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

How are tariff disputes and economic uncertainty reshaping Canadian consumer behaviour? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, welcomes Scott Megginson, President of Kantar Canada and Sean Martin, General Manager at Numerator. Their conversation explores the nuances of the "Buy Canadian" sentiment, its impact on domestic and international brands, and provides strategic advice for marketers navigating this complex landscape.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:19
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:21 - 00:00:46:03
Alison
In today's episode, we're tackling a topic that's been dominating headlines and boardroom discussions alike. The shifting landscape of Canadian consumer behaviour in the wake of recent tariff disputes, and the global political and economic uncertainty. Joining me today are two of Canada's top insights and analytics leaders. Scott Megginson, president of Kantar Canada, is a veteran with over 30 years of market research.

00:00:46:05 - 00:01:14:17
Alison
He's held significant roles at Angus Reid Group, Warner Lambert Canada, PepsiCo Canada and has led Kantar Canada for the past 15 years. Scott, also a regular industry speaker, the past Chair of Queen's University Dean's Council of Arts and Science and the founding president of the Canadian Advisory Council for the Insights Association. Joining Scott and me today is Sean Martin, general manager at Numerator, and a trusted advisor to many of the largest companies across North America.

00:01:14:19 - 00:01:35:09
Alison
Sean also started his career working for leading brands and held senior roles at Mars, GSK and Procter Gamble before taking the lead role at Numerator, where he's led the Canadian business for five years. Scott can be sharing key insights from what Kantar is seeing about Canadians perspective and planned behaviours, and how they're changing as a result of the chaos that's emerging from south of the border.

00:01:35:11 - 00:02:01:23
Alison
He's also covering important considerations for brands. Sean will complement this by highlighting the actual ways that Canadians' behaviours have changed when it comes to their purchase decisions and actions. Together, the three of us are diving into how Canadian consumers are responding to the call to buy Canadian, as well as the risks and opportunities for both domestic and international brands, and the very delicate balance between patriotic messaging and authentic brand positioning.

00:02:02:01 - 00:02:16:01
Alison
From the pitfalls of maple washing to the surprising resilience of shopping habits, our guests will share their latest research and offer valuable advice for marketers navigating through these turbulent waters. Welcome Scott and Sean, it is an absolute pleasure to have you here today.

00:02:16:02 - 00:02:17:02
Scott
Thank you Alison.

00:02:17:04 - 00:02:19:09
Sean
Thank you Alison. Wonderful to be here.

00:02:19:11 - 00:02:28:17
Alison
Now, I'd love to have you both answer my first question. Can you each share what your organizations are doing to track Canadian consumer behaviour? And, Scott, why don't you kick things off?

00:02:28:22 - 00:02:29:15
Sean
We've been looking

00:02:29:15 - 00:02:59:14
Scott
at different ways to to really understand what Canadian consumers are feeling, because there's just there's so much out there and there's so much in chat and social and everywhere else. And that's one of the first things that we started looking at, was, using our, we call it DX analytics, but really, analyzing search and social signals to get a good understanding of how Canadian consumers are seeing brands.

00:02:59:15 - 00:03:28:15
Scott
I mean, do they see them as Canadian or not Canadian? With all the confusion of being in Canada and product of Canada and such, but also the sentiment, and that's been giving us some useful insights, both for Canadian brands and for multinationals. Secondly, there's a lot of polling and a lot of attitudinal data floating around out there, but we wanted to go a little bit deeper, and we've been engaging our Canada Monitor team to really look at the trends and how the values have shifted underneath that.

00:03:28:17 - 00:03:46:21
Scott
And we've just launched a global study. We call it Barometer. And we did this during Covid as well. But it's a global study that we're going to have results for pretty soon and we'll be sharing them out with people and how consumers in different markets are really seeing tariffs and and what their responses are and with some of their shopping habits.

00:03:46:23 - 00:04:10:19
Scott
And the third piece I think is important. It's been going back what we've learned. I mean, we've been through different crises before. I mentioned Covid. We've gone through different financial crises in the past as well. And we have a lot of learnings for brands and for advertising that we've gone back to look at and pull the dust off a bit, but also try to see which are relevant to bring back to the market for consideration.

00:04:10:20 - 00:04:13:23
Scott
So those are your three areas for us basically.

00:04:14:01 - 00:04:27:01
Alison
That's great. Scott. It will be fascinating to see how the global study around how countries around the world are reacting to tariffs. That will be very valuable insights for our listeners and certainly for Canadian brands and businesses. And Sean, what about you?

00:04:27:02 - 00:04:56:07
Sean
Yeah. Thanks, Alison. For for those that you don't know Numerator we are the largest single source data lake in Canada. And so in a nutshell we collect 12 million receipts from 165,000 Canadians, including Amazon purchases, Walmart purchases as well as hundreds of demographics. And we put it all into our data lake. And with that, we seek to understand what people are actually doing with their purchases and how their opinions are changing, how their sentiment changes, and how it's impacting purchases.

00:04:56:09 - 00:05:29:15
Sean
As it specifically relates to this, this Buy Canadian and tariff phenomenon, we've gone ahead and segmented our panel based on shoppers; claimed sentiment around their intentionality. Therefore, we now have segments for people that claim to buy Canadian, who want to avoid U.S. retailers or avoid U.S. brands. And so we're working with our clients to not only understand how their consumers are thinking about it, where they sit in this range, but also tracking their actual purchases and seeing if the sentiments they claim are results in real actions at the store.

00:05:29:17 - 00:05:54:10
Alison
And that's a really powerful part of the conversation we can have today. It's one thing to understand how Canadians across the country are feeling and planning to behave, but to actually be able to back that up with actual change in behaviour will make for a very fascinating conversation. So thank you both for being here today. Now, Scott, what is your research showing when it comes to Canadian sentiment towards Canadian brands versus American brands versus international brands?

00:05:54:12 - 00:06:20:22
Scott
This is an interesting one, Alison. And we're just starting to get into it. I'll share an example from coffee. What's more Canadian than coffee, right? But we're now digging into, ten different categories and different brands across this. And the first learning was that it's not that black and white, and it's not a clear correlation between how consumers see brands.

00:06:20:22 - 00:06:38:20
Scott
So let's call it provenance or how Canadian a brand is, or created a Canadian index, you know, from 0 to 100 of how Canadian your brand is seen. And then we looked at sentiment as well. So positive or negative. So what's associated with that? And we're getting this from search and social like I mentioned before. And it was really interesting.

00:06:38:21 - 00:06:58:12
Scott
Let's take a case of a few different brands here. And you have a brand like Second Cup. And if you look at it, Second Cup has become even more Canadian in association recently. I think a lot of that had to do with This Hour Has 22 Minutes. They have that viral thing and that's one of the brands that they called out.

00:06:58:14 - 00:07:24:08
Scott
And, but we saw that their sentiment hadn't changed versus a year ago. Now meanwhile, it has, because back in the end of last year, their sentiment took a nosedive due to some, let's just say, political statements of one of their franchisee's owners. And it was, it made the news and it took a dive. But what's happened to Second Cup is they have, shot right back up to where they were.

00:07:24:08 - 00:07:50:10
Scott
So they've recovered their sentiment and been seen as more Canadian. Then you have the big brands like Tim Hortons, which is, with all the scrutiny, is being seen as a little less Canadian as people look into ownership. But their sentiment hasn't changed that much. People love their Timmie's. And there's almost the same from McDonald's. I mean, McDonald's was never considered a Canadian brand, but their sentiment hasn't changed much, meaning,
00:07:50:11 - 00:08:21:09
Scott
or you could interpret, that it's not just about being Canadian. And that's what we're seeing with the maple washing. It's a lot more than that for a brand. The last example of that is Starbucks. And Starbucks, clearly not a Canadian brand. I mean, what could be more Seattle, than Starbucks? But their sentiment has really, really improved. So this tells us that there's, just using a microcosm here of coffee, that there's room for all brands to improve their relationships with consumers, whether they're Canadian or not.

00:08:21:09 - 00:08:26:12
Scott
And it's about getting the messaging right and the servicing right and delivering great customer experience.

00:08:26:14 - 00:08:44:15
Alison
Now, I know many Canadians are planning to buy Canadian. And Scott, as you called out, coffee is a fairly easy sector to do that in. Not all industries are as easy to buy Canadian if that's your appetite. So Sean, I'm curious to hear from you how Canadians are actually changing their buying behaviours.

00:08:44:17 - 00:09:08:05
Sean
Yeah, absolutely. And I think Scott's absolutely right. And I love the lead of it's not simple. It's a little more complicated. And we always have to remember that the Buy Canadian, you know, sentiment and uproar, which is very real for Canadians today. In fact 60% of Canadians are saying they intend to buy Canadian, yet only 40% say they intend to buy less U.S.

00:09:08:06 - 00:09:35:07
Sean
So it's very obvious that the sentiment is a positive one, a patriotic one versus one where they're seeking to punish U.S. retailers or brands. But it really is based on on the background of a, of a very difficult economy. And Buy Canada is really just one sentiment driving consumers' purchase decisions. In fact, 88% of consumers, much more than are worried about Buy Canada, are really focused on concerns around their everyday value and the impact tariffs are going to have every day.

00:09:35:09 - 00:09:56:16
Sean
And so it's critical for business owners to understand that Buy Canada is one sentiment driving purchase decisions. But it may not be, to Scott's point, as simple as the only one. And so it's incredibly important to understand overall how people are reacting when they're faced with purchasing every day. For us in our business, what we've seen is something, you know, pretty interesting and pretty diverse.

00:09:56:16 - 00:10:30:15
Sean
And really, to Scott's point, comes down to it's more complex than just Buy Canada and you really need to understand specific categories and consumers. For example, take U.S. retailers. So predominantly a lot of Canadians will say today that they are seeking to avoid U.S. retailers, some of the ones. But when you actually look at the purchase data, what you see is there's not a significant change in Canadians willing to sacrifice the convenience, the value, the location of a retail shop in order to seek out Canadian brands, or more importantly, to avoid U.S. retailers.

00:10:30:17 - 00:10:54:21
Sean
In fact, it's so extreme that in our panel, the people that came to be U.S. avoiders, people who claim to be strongly seeking to avoid U.S. retailers also haven't changed their their shopping habits at all. The fact is that these people were always shopping U.S. retailers less, and they've just found that this sentiment around avoiding U.S. retailers is a nice label to put on a habit that they've already been doing.

00:10:54:23 - 00:11:22:09
Sean
And so often we see that the sentiment doesn't overpower the cost of having to change a habit like a retailer choice. U.S. retailers continue to grow, especially where they're offering value. Now, where we see real differences is in category and brands. And absolutely, the anger driven by some of the things going on in the U.S. from tariffs is resulting in real shopping behaviours, where Canadians are willing to change their basket to match their sentiment.

00:11:22:12 - 00:11:52:19
Sean
And we see this across the board. We've done work across everything from packaged bread to mayonnaise to pet food. What you see as if you can look at shoppers today, Canadian brands, since the tariffs are growing share at a faster rate than non-Canadian brands. And even more interestingly, to kind of reinforce the power of that message when we segment our business on shoppers that say express some very strong sentiment to buying Canadian, they are growing faster than the average consumer.

00:11:52:19 - 00:12:22:20
Sean
So this is this is a a trend that has taken hold for Canadians. And in a lot of ways, and a lot of brands, they're willing to check labels in order to, to try to skew their purchases to Canadian. Now, the one thing I will say is that for all brand managers is you have to know your consumer, and you have to know your category, because we see massive differences across categories. Categories that are taste-oriented or are easy to determine the local nature of the product,

00:12:23:01 - 00:12:47:07
Sean
we see big changes and a big willingness to move. But in categories that have either have a high cost of educating yourself on is it Canadian or not? I think Scott mentioned the word maple washing or understanding, or categories like HABA or baby care, where there is a high cost to change, we're seeing a much smaller impact, even with those Canadians that say they have a very high intent to shop Canadian.

00:12:47:09 - 00:12:52:10
Sean
So again, and often that cost trumps the desire to be Canadian.

00:12:52:12 - 00:13:15:06
Scott
Those are great insights, Sean. I mean, when you look category by category too, it's other trends or consumer behaviours in the past, I know in an earlier conversation we talked about sustainability and people wanting to do a certain thing. But then there's the price to it and the cost. And then you talked about the habit of switching. I mean, switching diapers is an easy thing to do if the diapers work.

00:13:15:08 - 00:13:21:04
Scott
You know, we both have kids. But it is interesting. I mean, it's not just being Canadian that's going to do it.

00:13:21:06 - 00:13:46:06
Sean
Yeah, I agree Scott, often it is a economic choice that trumps. But we also have to remember that, you know, Canadians are at a tipping point. I think Stats Canada published the average Canadian's 97% of disposable income is now being spent. So you have to understand that there's a willingness, but there's also unfortunately, a lot of Canadians today don't have the ability or the flexibility to make a choice when it comes down to buy Canada versus not.

00:13:46:08 - 00:14:03:00
Alison
What's the role of convenience in that decision to you? So if I have the best of intentions that I want to buy Canadian, and maybe it's more challenging than I thought to find a particular Canadian brand, or comes at a premium, I understand obviously the price implications. Some people just don't have the reality to be able to spend more.

00:14:03:02 - 00:14:05:12
Alison
But is convenience playing a role in it too?

00:14:05:14 - 00:14:27:17
Sean
Absolutely. I think when you think about the regular purchasing drivers that are the overpowering reasons people choose to purchase, often for value, to find the selection they're looking for that match their product needs, Alison. And then the convenience, time, the value of time and the value in all our lives, with kids, with everything else, often trumps our intentionality of our good intentions or the things we like to say we will do.

00:14:27:19 - 00:14:49:18
Sean
And I think the other thing marketers have to realize is the barriers to being omnichannel have declined precipitously. So, you know, we continue to see online, especially in categories like CABA. While penetration has not grown since the Covid, we continue to see loyalty and buy rate increase exponentially. So those that have tried online are getting more and more comfortable.

00:14:49:18 - 00:15:08:23
Sean
And the barrier to shopping online is down. So convenience doesn't just have to be the five minute drive to your grocery store. It's convenience in a, in an omni channel as consumers shop across channels. And and that's hard to change. It is very hard to change and get rid of the convenience of going to the drugstore on the corner to get your beauty regimen.

00:15:09:01 - 00:15:18:01
Sean
It's very hard to drive by several value-oriented retailers in order to find the one, because you want to shop based on that sentiment.

00:15:18:03 - 00:15:51:08
Scott
Yeah, you know, a quick build there, actually two things. One of them is when you look at the in-store condition, too, I mean, I've done so much research over the years, both on the client side and on the current supplier side that I'm on. And shelf decisions are made in like a 200th of a second. And so right now, people are giving a little bit of extra time to, you know, use their app and scan a product or check the provenance of a specific product. That's not going to last long term, because that's just not the way people are wired when they're shopping.

00:15:51:08 - 00:16:12:09
Scott
I think it's just a blip in time for that. Convenience is very important. And that's where even the brand work we do. We talk about salience. It's critical for your products to be salient. So the top of mind when people go to make a shopping decision, you know whether it's online or whether it's an in-store. If we start dropping the ball as marketers on focusing on building salience, we're going to be in big trouble.

00:16:12:11 - 00:16:33:17
Scott
And a lot of people are sitting there, sitting and waiting right now, with all the uncertainty in the markets. But it's really a time to be getting your brand message out there. And, you know, the last piece of that's pricing, and pricing power that we talked about, and that's a whole cost and worth balance between brands. And you can't justify a premium just being Canadian, maybe for a week or two.

00:16:33:17 - 00:16:39:20
Scott
but those are things we have to think about long term. And that's the importance of brand building right now for both convenience and for price.

00:16:39:22 - 00:17:07:01
Sean
Yeah, I mean, I would love to add something. I think something Scott said, just really resonate with me. It really comes down in my mind of, do you have the product fit to your view of the consumers looking for? And but he way, if marketers are not seeking to understand at a deeper level what their consumers, both their current consumers of their products to understand what their sentiments are truly and are instead looking at the average Canadian, then, I think it was Harvard 

00:17:07:03 - 00:17:29:14
Sean
Business Review that said that any strategy built on the average is doomed to fail. And so I think understanding how do we get away from measuring the average so we can understand our consumer? So to Scott's point, we can do that connection, making sure our brands have salience is is unbelievable insight and something that we that marketers don't spend more time on right now versus worrying about the sentiment concerns and changing.

00:17:29:16 - 00:17:46:00
Alison
And, Scott, you also highlighted that Canadians who can afford to are willing to pay a bit of a premium. But the other thing that's very dangerous for marketers and brands right now is if they decide to take advantage of that and price gouge, there's been a couple of examples of that. And it's, there's never a good time to do that in my mind.

00:17:46:00 - 00:17:57:04
Alison
But now is the worst time to do that because Canadians, if they feel that they're being taken advantage of while we're trying to do what we think is right, the risk for long term business and brand damage is incredible.

00:17:57:06 - 00:18:24:19
Scott
Oh, 100%, Alison. Pricing is something that gets built up over time by a meaningful difference for a brand and building a differentiation and creating that whole value equation. And you take a look at the, now you can see they've bounced back pretty well, but take a look at the hit that Loblaws took and other retailers over the last couple of years for pricing-related issues right now, and they really had to change their way of doing business to start recapturing consumers.

00:18:24:21 - 00:18:42:07
Scott
It's the same for brands and any price-gouging or negatives like that are going to have a long term consequence, and then you get into a price game where cheaper people will come along, becomes, lessen your brand and switching goes up and you're commoditized over time. Happened in the orange juice category, happens in a lot of categories.

00:18:42:09 - 00:18:53:08
Alison
Now Sean, you typically in research see regional or generational differences. So when you looked at how Canadian consumer buying behaviour is changing, did you notice any big regional or generational differences?

00:18:53:10 - 00:19:14:15
Sean
Yeah, absolutely. I think we've seen very, very specific differences both on a regional and a generational point of view, as you would expect. From a from a generational point of view, the the Buy Canadian shopper tends to over-index a little bit older, tends to be a little bit more white or European, and come from a smaller household than the general population.

00:19:14:17 - 00:19:43:19
Sean
But the the biggest changes we see and probably the most impactful is, as Canadian marketers seek to drive their go to market strategies, is from a regional point of view. And largely you can read it east to west. We see that, you know, both in Atlantic Canada and Quebec, not only is the sentiment around buy Canadian much higher and much over-indexed than the rest of Canada, but we also see that the actual purchasing behaviour has been has been more impactful.

00:19:43:20 - 00:20:05:08
Sean
And as you move kind of west, you hit Ontario and out west, you see that sentiment around buy Canadian as a driver of purchase and intentionality decreased quite a bit. So it's very much a East to West phenomenon, although, you know, anytime sentiments are above 30, 40%, they're almost always but they tend to over-index from a passion in Atlantic Canada and Quebec.

00:20:05:10 - 00:20:28:09
Sean
And then from an actual purchase behaviour, Alison, what we see is, Quebec especially, we talked about retailers. U.S. retailers have largely been unimpacted by a U.S. branding or a perception of U.S. In Quebec, we see a little different. While those trends are still positive, they're much more muted than the rest of Canada. Instead what we see is a big halo effect for some of the,

00:20:28:09 - 00:20:55:22
Sean
the truly Quebec brands that they see, brands like Metro and IGA. And absolutely, I think when you think as a marketer around, you know, Quebec and their purchase intent, you do have to think a little bit around, there has been a significant upswing in Canadian nationalism in Quebec for the first time in a while, but how long is that Canadian nationalism versus more around a really a local view of, of one of my local, which really, pardon my terrible French,

00:20:55:22 - 00:21:29:08
Sean
but it is more around "a la mode du Québec" than it is around made in Canada. And what we do see is while Canadian brands are getting that same halo, very much in a market where Canadian brands or more U.S. brands have traditionally been under-shared, versus international brands like D'Italiano bread or L'Oreal skincare. We see, a little bit of more of a halo around those both those international brands, as well as purely local brands like Pride of Montreal that have have got a big hold from a buy local point of view, not just a Canadian sentiment.

00:21:29:10 - 00:21:38:13
Alison
And Sean, do you think part of that halo around the international brands is if they can't find a local brand to avoid buying American, they'll go anything but American?

00:21:38:15 - 00:22:09:03
Sean
Yeah. I mean, there's always been a history and especially in some of the more difficult categories like like health and beauty, Alison, or where it's difficult to tell what is what is buy Canada. Québecers have always over-indexed in more French brands or national brands from a comfort point of view. And so while local Quebec brands are doing well, we do see that there's still the gap between the international brand and a identified American brand, and there's a little bit of momentum behind that change as well.

00:22:09:03 - 00:22:11:21
Sean
So absolutely, it's it's there.

00:22:11:22 - 00:22:33:13
Scott
You know what's interesting there as well. I mean for years and years and years we've been looking at advertising in Quebec versus outside of Quebec, and the rest of Canada, even getting down to other regions. And, and correctly assumed that, you know, national advertising doesn't work that well in Quebec. And it's been documented and we've seen that time and time again.

00:22:33:15 - 00:22:54:13
Scott
But, we're also seeing some different approaches to advertising right now because of the tariffs. And, you know, I think about Kraft Heinz had a couple, one of them was about Heinz ketchup and that it's Ontario tomatoes and it's made in a  Quebec plant. And really building on, you know, the the impact they have on the economy and agriculture and workers in those.

00:22:54:13 - 00:23:30:05
Scott
And they did it again, during the Superbowl or Kraft dinner and the plant. And then on the other side of the coin, so you have national advertising that is really pulling on some Quebec heartstrings as well, or has the ability to. And then Aylmer did a really interesting and controversial ad, by the way, where, it was this spit commercial where they're eating soup and realized is made in the U.S. and spit it out on camera. It was really, really clever stuff, but it gets to the Made in Quebec part that Sean's talking about that also has legs outside of this region for the rest of the country.

00:23:30:07 - 00:23:38:04
Scott
So I think it's a it's an interesting opportunity to look at some, national advertising at the same time, building on, you know, Quebec in different regions.

00:23:38:06 - 00:23:46:00
Alison
And Scott building on that, we talked a little bit about maple washing. So what do you see are the risks of brands that are being labeled with maple washing?

00:23:46:02 - 00:24:09:02
Scott
Well, first of all it's losing any point of differentiation or brand equity you've had, whether you're watch TV or the radio or things flashing up on your phone, it's just an incredible amount of advertisers are trying to take a shortcut right now, as we were touching on earlier just about being Canadian, like that's all there is to it. And we know that's not all there is to a brand at all.

00:24:09:04 - 00:24:27:21
Scott
You know, brand has to deliver in so many different ways, stand out from the others, you know, command that price premium potentially that we talked about and that's built over years and years and years and throwing out messages that have nothing to do with your brand are the quickest way to, first of all, waste advertising dollars.

00:24:27:23 - 00:24:48:12
Scott
But the second part of that is you could be taking away from some strong equity you have. The other part is you may or may not have credentials to do this. You know, there are brands that have a really deeply-rooted in the Canadian experience and community. And I think about brands like Canadian Tire, Tim Hortons, and you think about whoever owns them,

00:24:48:12 - 00:25:22:09
Scott
you can think about a lot of brands like that. But if you are a multinational brand, you may not have to say anything. You may not need to go near that space right now. Just talk about what your brand is and all the things that's made it great for so many years. Because as soon as you're inauthentic, or unauthentic, I always get that one wrong, and as soon as you're making claims that people don't believe, whether sometimes they're true or not, but you go too far, you break the trust of consumers, and you're going to see a very fast erosion in your brand equity as a result.

00:25:22:11 - 00:25:41:15
Scott
So, you know, I'm not saying this because we do this kind of work. Go to anybody, but test your messaging first and make sure that it's believable, it's resonating, and it's also going to lead to purchase intent, which at the end of the day you're trying to drive sales. There are no shortcuts. And that's what we're seeing with maple washing.

00:25:41:17 - 00:26:02:10
Alison
Now you both are in the market daily and you've got a lot of very good recent research on how Canadians are acting in the current climate and how they intend to act. So of all the research findings you've seen over the last few weeks, what surprised you the most that any marketer who's joined us today should know? And, Scott, do you want to kick things off?

00:26:02:12 - 00:26:31:06
Scott
It's not just about being more or less Canadian. And that's what we're finding from our search and social work. The sentiment is not necessarily tied to being Canadian. Gets back to that advertising piece and messaging piece that we just touched on as well, that there's plenty of space for multinational brands to thrive in this market. And, you know, it's not about like trying to appear more Canadian or, you know, looking at your credentials and Sean said it well too, like your brand message is what you say.

00:26:31:06 - 00:26:50:04
Scott
Your brand equity is what people believe about your brand at the end of the day. So I think, like the first surprise, because I was caught up with the passion as a consumer and a shopper and a Canadian. I was caught up like everybody else. And then the research is showing that I'm seeing so far, that it's not everything.

00:26:50:06 - 00:27:05:17
Scott
And so, you know, we have so many great multinational brands in this country, and they've all been part of our legacy and their life experiences as well. But there's plenty and plenty of room for them to continue to build their brands. That's the one that really caught my attention.

00:27:05:19 - 00:27:30:00
Sean
Absolutely echo Scott's view around sentiment, translating to actually and understanding that the Buy Canada may not be everything. And I and I think the biggest surprise I've seen, you know, we live in a world where it feels like the clickbait, a lot of doom and gloom. I've been incredibly surprised at how many opportunities for demand growth and excitement there are with Canadian consumers today.

00:27:30:02 - 00:27:46:20
Sean
And I go back to the, I feel like a broken record of, if you don't look at the average and you understand your consumer and what's driving their purchase decision, and whether it be in the Buy Canada or U.S. avoiders, whether it be in why they're choosing a new Canadians as there's so many opportunities to drive your your demand growth,

00:27:46:20 - 00:28:07:13
Sean
if you understand why someone is making the decision they're making. And so that that is, I think, been something that has surprised me about that in a world where it feels like there's not a lot of opportunities to drive strategic decisions and actions, there's actually a lot of opportunities where shoppers are spending and they're willing to spend if you get your message right.

00:28:07:13 - 00:28:14:05
Sean
But you have to understand how Canadians are operating as individuals, not as an average consumers.

00:28:14:07 - 00:28:39:04
Alison
Sean, I'll also say that that's very encouraging for everyone that's tuned in today to know that with the right understanding and the right of your consumer and the right marketing approach, Canadians are willing to spend. So that gives us all lots of hope. Now, you both have clearly have deep insights into Canadian consumer behaviour on the actions. So what advice would you give marketers as they navigate through the rising Canadian patriotism and global economic uncertainty?

00:28:39:06 - 00:28:43:01
Alison
And Sean, you've shared a bit of advice already. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

00:28:43:03 - 00:29:09:08
Sean
Yeah, I mean, I think again, understand your consumer, understand them at a level that's deep enough to to actually identify real differences so you can make decisions against them. I would absolutely add to that the power of consumer, but also the power of your product and making sure that your product is really meeting the jobs to be done of your consumer and that you're differentiated enough to command not only the right to be bought, but also at a premium.

00:29:09:08 - 00:29:27:23
Sean
So whether that's jobs to be done from fulfilling a Buy Canada if you have that authenticity, but also jobs to be done when it comes across all the different, you know, choices and reasons why someone would buy your brand. So understand the consumer and match your product differentiation of the jobs to be done I think are just good work.

00:29:28:01 - 00:29:50:22
Scott
Wise words Sean and I'll add three. I'll add three things when it comes to, you know, advertising and marketing as well. One of them is do not go dark. This is the worst time to go to dark. Any time is a bad time to go to dark, and it will take years to rebuild your current levels of salience

00:29:51:03 - 00:30:19:18
Scott
if you stop your messaging now. And that will cost a lot more than maintaining your presence with consumers. We call it a recovery period. And you're gonna have a long recovery if you stop messaging. Number two is, we talked about the sea of sameness around Canadian credential advertising. And a lot of the advertising can get pretty bland and be, you know, one ad kind of same as the other ad with messaging and everything else.

00:30:19:20 - 00:30:42:21
Scott
The one thing to remember is just like, people need a break from that. And in all of our advertising research over different crises and moments in time, don't forget the power of appropriate humour in advertising as a way to stand out and give people a mental break from everything that's going on. They're stressed out enough. It's not too soon to get back to a good joke.

00:30:42:21 - 00:31:08:13
Scott
I think people, and we see it again in our research, that people appreciate that, and your advertising will stand out. And the third one, and this is a pitch Alison, it's something we're doing, the case for Canadian Creative. We're going to be speaking to, advertising testing and advertising effectiveness in the U.S. versus Canada. But we've seen over and over again that U.S. ads do not necessarily perform well in Canada.

00:31:08:15 - 00:31:34:03
Scott
Right now is not the time to be using U.S. advertising in this market, with this heightened sensitivity, it's pretty clear to consumers around their messaging and how the brand and people are shown in ads. This is not a good time. And I always say, it's, you know, penny rich and pound foolish to try to save a few bucks on your production versus the millions and millions that you spend on media.

00:31:34:05 - 00:31:53:12
Scott
Now's not the time to repurpose ads from other markets unless you have tested them and you're sure that they're going to resonate well. It could actually take away from your brand. So three things with advertising to be careful of - don't go dark, don't be afraid of a good joke, and be careful about using creative from other markets.

00:31:53:14 - 00:32:18:06
Alison
That's great counsel, and thanks for pitching the CMA Case for Canada event in June. That's going to be a great continuation of this conversation for sure. And then on your don't go dark, the other side of that is, because many businesses do go dark in an economic downturn, those that don't, or better yet, heavy up their investment, see significant business returns and long-standing business returns.

00:32:18:06 - 00:32:37:01
Alison
So there's a lot of reasons not to be cutting marketing spend right now. Now, before I let you both get on with your busy day, I want to end with a question that's more around career advice. You both have incredible, very enviable and long-standing careers, and I know our listeners will absolutely benefit from hearing about your journey.

00:32:37:06 - 00:32:47:05
Alison
So to close off the discussion, I'd love you each to share one piece of advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps. And Sean, do you want to kick things off?

00:32:47:07 - 00:33:08:11
Sean
Absolutely. I mean, the biggest advice I'll give and I'll, I'll focus on people early in their careers because I feel like often in today's world, that's where people are looking on, what's next? How far do I go? And and they're filled with all the wonderful things they're going to do in their career. My big advice is really focus on building your equity, your talent, your skill set.

00:33:08:11 - 00:33:44:13
Sean
And don't be as as rushed to run to the next, but really enjoy the the work you're doing, the things and the challenges and and I and I give that advice for a couple reasons. A - you know, my experience I've gotten the honour to work in CPG for, for many years and then make the jump into tech. That ability to move, both across brands and across industries and even into leisure space, was done because, you know, I, I built a very good core skill set around CPG and understanding and the market, and so building that foundation has served me incredibly well since I started and focused. And then and then the second one is the

00:33:44:13 - 00:34:14:02
Sean
other big advice I give to anybody is let your, you know, choose your career path once you figure out what what drives value for you. We've talked about the cost of time. We talked about convenience. You know, that cost is very small when you enjoy what you do. And I and I find I built that early in my career where I, where I really realized that, you know, I get a lot of value by creating value for others, whether it be insights or CPG, working with people like Scott, for my family, my kids.

00:34:14:02 - 00:34:32:00
Sean
And so I've always since then sought out roles that allowed me to maximize how much value I can create for others, and it's allowed me to to move quickly. It's allowed me to get through these tough times, or sometimes where you're feeling like, I don't want to get up. It makes the cost of time very small if you love what you do.

00:34:32:18 - 00:34:56:16
Scott
I mean, the first one for me is pretty simple, and it's just about embracing change. I mean, research is all about questions and finding new ways to answer them. And, you know, I think about, through my career, about the resistance to things like online research, the automation, and now people are a little scared of AI. And it's, if you're scared of these things, you're going to fail.

00:34:56:19 - 00:35:18:09
Scott
I mean, it's, how are you going to leverage these to get the answers in a whole new and exciting way? So keeping an open mind and keeping on top of all the rapid changes in technology. And number two is, just, take it from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. This is a very small community. Be excellent to one another, always.

00:35:18:11 - 00:35:30:23
Scott
It's a small world. You're going to be working with people again and again, and if you treat people with a lot of respect and a lot of interest, you're going to you're going to do well and others around you will do well too. 

00:35:30:23 - 00:35:51:00
Alison
Outstanding advice. And I love the Bill and Ted Excellent Adventure reference. Thank you both. Really great conversation. You've shared really important insights and research-backed knowledge that everyone that's tuned in will absolutely benefit from. So, I also know you're incredibly busy, especially right now, so thank you both for making time to join me today and for a really great conversation.

00:35:51:02 - 00:35:51:19
Scott
Thanks Alison.

00:35:51:21 - 00:35:54:15
Sean
It was fantastic. Thanks, Alison. Thanks, Scott.

Scott
Thanks Sean.

00:35:54:17 - 00:36:09:04
Presenter
Just thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

How are successful Canadian brands adapting to today's rapidly changing market? In this episode of CMA Connect, CMA CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Steven Allmen, Executive Vice President of Strategy and Partnerships at CAA National. They explore strategies for staying relevant and growing in Canada, from successful pivots to cautionary tales like Hudson's Bay. Discover the evolving role of trust in brand loyalty, what it truly means to be a Canadian brand today, and how companies respond to shifting consumer behaviours in the face of economic pressures.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:21:19
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:21:21 - 00:00:44:22
Alison
In today's episode, we are exploring how one of Canada's oldest brands has evolved to stay relevant and grow for over 100 years. Clearly, that's not an easy feat, especially when you think about how much the world and Canadians have changed over that period. I am absolutely delighted to welcome Steve Allmen, the Executive Vice-President of strategy and partnerships with Canadian Automobile Association, who is joining me today.

00:00:45:00 - 00:01:15:02
Alison
Before joining the CAA National, Steve held senior leadership roles in loyalty, retail, telecom and financial services, working for great businesses like Amia, Aeroplan and HBC, to name a few. With expertise in strategic alliances, program design and business development, Steve focuses on driving value through partnerships, data driven insights and loyalty marketing. His diverse background really reflects a passion for delivering growth and transformative results, and this work in the CAA is the latest example.

00:01:15:06 - 00:01:36:01
Alison
Today, Steve and I are going to dig into what it takes to stay relevant and grow as a business and brand in Canada. Whether your brand has been around for decades or is in more nascent stages, there is absolutely lots of valuable learning that you can benefit from in our conversation. We'll also cover when you should pivot and futureproof your business by changing what's working well for your company in the past, and that's never an easy decision.

00:01:36:03 - 00:01:52:05
Alison
We'll talk about the crucial role trust plays and what it means to be a Canadian brand, amidst the current political and economic upheaval. The CAA also has a unique lens into how Canadians are changing their behaviours across the country, which is valuable for all the marketers who have tuned in today. Welcome, Steve.

00:01:52:07 - 00:01:54:03
Steve
Thanks, Alison. Great to be here.

00:01:54:05 - 00:02:10:04
Alison
So, Steve, let's start with what's going on today and the recent resurgence of Canadian patriotism. I'd love you to share how CAA has seen Canadians adopting their behaviours in the face of tariffs and the increased loyalty to our country. And also, are you seeing any regional differences?

00:02:10:06 - 00:02:30:05
Steve
Yeah. Thanks, Alison. It's a, it's a great topic. It's sort of an unfortunate topic that we have to cover today. But the reality is we're all living it. So one of the things that we've seen at CAA, I think as much as anybody else is we're very happy that we've got Canadian in our name, because it makes it very easy for people to understand who we are.

00:02:30:07 - 00:02:57:23
Steve
We're we're a diverse group of clubs across Canada. We represent about 7.4 million Canadian members. We call them members, not as much consumers, but members of our program. We're very proud of the fact that we are coast to coast with offices from BC to Atlantic Canada. What we're seeing as much as anything else, is a lot of clarity around travel, a lot of clarity around, you know, the importance of being Canadian and a lot of pride.

00:02:58:01 - 00:03:26:12
Steve
I can't quote all the numbers for you right now because we're still learning them as we go along. We are certainly seeing a dip in U.S. travel. We're certainly seeing an uptick in European, Caribbean, Mexico travel. So CAA is not just a roadside business. We're also a travel business. And so we have a pretty good sense as to what's going on from what our members are researching, what our travel agents are hearing from their consumers, and how we're promoting the business.

00:03:26:14 - 00:03:51:15
Steve
It doesn't mean we're not promoting U.S. partners, but we're very aware of the fact that Canadians have changed their travel behaviour. One of the things I'm going to be most interested to see is because CAA is part of a North America wide alliance with Triple-A, which is very much the same business as CAA, we get a lot of trans-border traffic, so we get Americans coming up to Canada, we get Canadians going down to the United States.

00:03:51:17 - 00:04:12:19
Steve
And in essence, if you break down as a CAA member in the middle of Tennessee and you phone CAA, a nice Triple A truck will show up. If you break down in the middle of Ontario and you're a Triple-A member, the same happens. So with summer travel coming up, it's going to be really interesting to see what impact that has on our business.

00:04:13:02 - 00:04:42:01
Steve
Wha,t what impact that has on our call rates and what impact that has just on our forecasting for the future. We don't know yet. We're still learning. The only other thing I'd say is we've got some great partners, many of whom are Canadian businesses. And so we're very much promoting them. Again, we're not doing anything to stop people from coming to our partners, but we're very proud of some of our Canadian partners and promoting them as we go through the motions of whatever is next going to come out of the United States and the government.

00:04:42:03 - 00:04:52:16
Alison
Now you highlighted some of the non-U.S. destinations that Canadians are now choosing Caribbean and others. Are we seeing them also booking more vacations in Canada?

00:04:52:18 - 00:05:16:14
Steve
Yeah, it's a great it's a great question. I think we're going to start to see a lot more road tripping, where we're hearing a lot more about it. We still do a lot of regional partners, very much regional partners that have the flavour of B.C. or the flavour of Atlantic Canada. Again, I don't have final numbers yet. It might be an interesting thing to revisit it in a year, and then we can measure against it.

00:05:16:15 - 00:05:38:10
Steve
But we certainly are having members asking about, what can I do in Niagara Falls? What can I do in beautiful Victoria? Where can I go in P.E.I.? And again, some of those are self-serving events versus using a travel agent. But I think we're going to see a real uptick in consumers either renting a car, we've got RV partners,

00:05:38:10 - 00:05:56:16
Steve
We've got hotel partners, we've got dining partners. Regional events, regional fairs and all those other things that are really built for our members. So I'm very confident we're going to see an uptick in those. Just everything you're reading in the press, it makes sense. And our consumers are very representative of the Canadian population.

00:05:56:18 - 00:06:12:16
Alison
Now, we're obviously seeing a huge Buy Canadian movement from your perspective with living, working with a brand that's been a part of Canada for 112 years. What does it mean to be a Canadian brand and how has that evolved during the current political and economic upheaval?

00:06:12:18 - 00:06:35:00
Steve
Yeah, it's it's a really interesting time for us. You know, CAA is built on a couple of things. We're built on our very traditional roadside business. We're also very much built on advocacy and safety and trust. And I'll give you a couple of examples. You know, we recently did, for example, for those of you who are EV drivers, I'm not,

00:06:35:00 - 00:06:59:18
Steve
But for those of you who are EV drivers, your biggest thing that you're worried about is range. So we did a very Canadian thing. We tested cars in the winter. That might seem unusual, but a lot of the EV cars that are out there have their ranges calculated based on California. We're not California. So in February, we actually did a test drive with using 14 EVs from beautiful Ottawa to even more beautiful Mont Tremblant.

00:06:59:20 - 00:07:22:03
Steve
We actually drove the cars until they were empty of electrical charge and fuel and wanted to see how long would they take? What was the charging time to reboot them? How did we need to kind of get all those little nuances working so that people are comfortable? And we did it with a lot of Canadian pride. We had people from all over Canada driving these vehicles up into Mont Tremblant.

00:07:22:04 - 00:07:40:01
Steve
It was fantastic. So the press that comes out of it is very much about CAA is trustworthy. And here's a Canadian view of EVs. So Canadian pride comes up. And again we are the Canadian Automobile Association, so we're reminded of it every day.

00:07:40:03 - 00:08:01:00
Alison
So now let's take a step back. Thriving is a business. For 112 years it was to state the obvious very, very rare. And it absolutely has to provide valuable learning for marketers, and the company at any stage. So can you share how the CAA has evolved? And we'll narrow the timeframe down to the last decade, relevance and driving growth.

00:08:01:02 - 00:08:40:06
Steve
Yeah. It's you know, we are 100 and I think we're 110 plus years old. And we started in a time of horse and carriage and bicycles and cars that were a little bit rickety. So we have evolved. I think the biggest thing that we've looked at is really the importance of trust around the data that we gather on our members and how we communicate with our members as we've migrated from very much a direct mail house - all of our clubs were very big on direct mail, either for acquisition or renewal or marketing around the partnerships, far more now to a digital journey.

00:08:40:06 - 00:08:56:10
Steve
And that digital journey has its pros and cons behind it. If you think about the journey of somebody who's broken down on the side of the road, and I'll just use a very real example. You're driving down in Toronto, you break down on the 401, you don't want to be there. So what do you do? You call CAA.

00:08:56:12 - 00:09:12:09
Steve
The old days, you would call CAA and they'd say, yep, we're going to send a tow truck and they'll be there in 40 minutes. Now with our apps, you can actually, in very much an Uber or Lyft like experience, go on to the app, track where the driver is, understand where their journey is, they'll communicate with you, you know who's showing up.

00:09:12:14 - 00:09:38:13
Steve
And so you've got not just that trust that somebody is coming, but you actually can see them coming. And trust me, that works really, really well when it comes to how our members are surviving. Also done things like, you know, the relevance of the importance of the safety of that event. So if your car is, the battery's dead on your driveway, that's a very different experience than your battery's dead or your car's broken down in the middle of the highway.

00:09:38:13 - 00:10:03:11
Steve
So we'll kind of gauge our our response times to it. From a marketing standpoint, very much again, respectful of privacy rules and regulations. You know, the journey flow, the buy flow from somebody who's, signing up for a membership or renewing their membership. How are they paying for it? So all the communication pieces have to address both the regional flare.

00:10:03:13 - 00:10:27:02
Steve
Remember we're CAA, but we're BCA in BC, we're the Alberta Motor Association in Alberta, we're CA Quebec, CA  Saskatchewan. So each of the clubs has a little bit of a nuance to how they market that message. And then how do we promote our partners? How do we promote our partners like Recipe, Harvey's, Swiss Chalet, Shell, Enterprise Rent-A-Car, Choice Hotels.

00:10:27:07 - 00:10:48:12
Steve
We again have to be very clear on the data. So if you're a regular Shell user, please don't send me an acquisition offer to go to Shell. If you're an infrequent user, maybe it's a re-engagement. So we're able to use, like any good marketers, the data to market better, promote better. Those are things that they didn't have ten years ago, 15 years ago.

00:10:48:14 - 00:11:10:03
Steve
With the birth of the AI, it's going to be even more interesting to see how we start to use AI to both predict behaviour, but also to market more effectively for our members. So I think we're very reflective of some of the other great members of the Canadian Marketing Association who are using great tools and methodologies, and data.

00:11:10:03 - 00:11:18:01
Steve
And we have some great data partners like Environics Analytics and some other great technology partners to really make sure that we're doing the right marketing message.

00:11:18:03 - 00:11:37:04
Alison
Now, the regional and national piece is relevant to a lot of our members and listeners as well. So how do you balance the desire to personalize messaging, reach and marketing regionally, and also have it have a CAA branded presence?

00:11:37:06 - 00:12:01:17
Steve
Yeah, it's it's a funny question because if I'm a BCA member, I really don't know what's going on in Atlantic Canada. I may not necessarily be too worried about it unless I'm driving there and I break down, and then it's really important. So, so we have to balance out both the, purpose of CAA from the standpoint of travel, roadside insurance, etc., from a national perspective.

00:12:01:22 - 00:12:27:03
Steve
But we also have to understand that there's a very different demographic between somebody who lives in downtown Vancouver versus somebody who lives in Moncton, or somebody who lives in northern Ontario. So our clubs are really, really focused on making sure that there's a nice mix of, you know, the local inn or the local hotel or the local restaurant that can support that club

00:12:27:05 - 00:12:51:22
Steve
that may not be relevant to everybody across the country. While at the same time, CAA goes and pursues very large national partners to provide that national fit for both our clubs and for the partners. So it's a bit of a balancing act. Shell is a primary example. We used to have five regional fuel partners. Great for the regions, really complicated for us as a business.

00:12:52:06 - 00:13:17:12
Steve
In 2021 we launched Shell in Alberta. We rolled them out nationally in 2022. So now we've got this national footprint with a national reach, which means a member from Quebec can go and fill up in BC and get the same value as they would as if they're filling up at home. So it's a bit of a mix between how we support both the partners, but also how we support the growth of our brand.

00:13:17:12 - 00:13:32:02
Steve
And again, that's new learning for us as we think about, you know, the reach in a very crowded marketplace of incentives and loyalty and discounts and benefits. So we kind of always have to be ahead of the game to make sure that we're achieving that goal.

00:13:32:04 - 00:13:50:19
Alison
Now, no matter how much you want to change, change is hard, and timing certainly plays a key role too, especially when you are driving change while business results are good. So how does the CAA team determine when you should pivot and future-proof your business by changing what's working well for your company?

00:13:50:21 - 00:14:13:08
Steve
Yeah, so I think the easiest way to explain it is that we have both strategic thinking and we have operational execution. And let me explain that a little bit. So we have a great collaboration between the clubs nationally. We have great collaboration between CAA and Triple-A, but we also have great collaboration between CAA and clubs around the world.

00:14:13:08 - 00:14:36:07
Steve
There's almost 200 countries that have mobility clubs we all share, so we might actually get an idea from a club in the Netherlands or in Australia and be able to bring it in. I'm really proud of the fact that CAA has actually been a leader in this, so let me unpack that a little bit. We're eight clubs in Canada, and so a club in Canada might try something new.

00:14:36:13 - 00:14:57:13
Steve
And I'll give you an example. One of our clubs a couple of years ago thought, you know, I'm really concerned about making sure that we're targeting a younger demographic. How are we going to do that? How can we get away from just, you know, traditional CAA to new CAA? So they actually launched the products in their club, it was Northeast Ontario.

00:14:57:15 - 00:15:21:07
Steve
So they actually launched the product that was CAA without roadside. So you might sit there and say, how is that going to work? But a CAA member can join every day and get all the benefits of CAA - discount on dining, discounts at fuel, great rates on insurance, great rates on travel, the only thing they can't do is call roadside.

00:15:21:07 - 00:15:43:12
Steve
Now, theoretically, if they called and they needed to get roadside, we would enrol them in the program. But it's not targeted at that group. So that started in one club and it rolled right across the country. It is now in every club in Canada. It's called different things in the clubs. It's Every Day in most of the clubs, Alberta calls it Community and BCA and Quebec call it Go.

00:15:43:12 - 00:16:08:14
Steve
So BCA Go and CAQuebec Go. So that innovation actually started in a club and they piloted it, and they tested it and they stress-tested it, and did all the other things and it rolled across the country. Why is it really exciting? Because it's now being tested in six of the Triple-A clubs as a non- roadside product. So a little bit of Canadian pride as we roll our product down into the United States.

00:16:08:16 - 00:16:29:18
Steve
And that pivot really came out of a need and an understanding. We needed to evolve. We needed to evolve our business. We needed to evolve beyond roadside as people are car-sharing more, as people are, you know, buying new cars, leasing vehicles, how can we kind of create an avenue for them to come in and work more closely with us?

00:16:29:18 - 00:16:52:13
Steve
And it's been very successful. You know the numbers, we're now nationally. The other thing we did with that business? Subscription model. Why subscription model? We know it works with the younger demographic. So instead of an upfront fee, it's a monthly fee. So that's kind of one example of a pivot. The next pivots I think are going to be around the connected car. As we think about our cars,

00:16:52:15 - 00:17:09:14
Steve
I still remember the days, I don't know about you, Alison, where you were pushing buttons to change stations and I got  am and nothing but. I am showing my age a little bit. But the connected car, the car knows it's time to change your oil. It's time to get gas. Here's the closest station. Do you want me to guide you there?

00:17:09:14 - 00:17:34:03
Steve
All those things that are there. So we're very excited about where the connected car is going to go. And how the car connects to the home and how the home connects to behaviour. And are there things that we could actually do to change our members behaviour safely while they're driving? I have to get that in for our road site team, but safely while they're driving, to allow the vehicle to help them do things.

00:17:34:05 - 00:17:51:23
Steve
Time to order an oil change. We have services now that will change your tires right on your driveway. So instead of booking a time where you have to go somewhere, they actually come to you. You're having a cup of coffee and they'll even detail your car. One of our guys in Atlantic Canada showed me pictures of his car being detailed.

00:17:52:01 - 00:18:10:16
Steve
He's got three kids. He doesn't have time to go and get the car cleaned. So those kinds of pivots change over time. Not all of them work. Like any good business, trial and error, but we're very proud of some of the things that we've done. And we're actually leaders within the global federation from an innovation standpoint.

00:18:10:18 - 00:18:13:03
Alison
You should have a lot of Canadian pride around that.

00:18:13:05 - 00:18:36:12
Steve
Yeah, I think so. I think so. Well, actually, if I can add one more thing, our rewards program is a platform that was built in Canada. That platform is now the platform of Triple A. It is now the platform of another program called One Road, which is our federation or international federation. So it's in Canada, the U.S., it's in Europe, and it's about to go into Asia.

00:18:36:12 - 00:18:46:04
Steve
That's a CAA-built platform that we use as the engine behind our our rewards program. So that's even more Canadian pride.

00:18:46:06 - 00:18:47:20
Alison
Absolutely. Well done.

00:18:47:22 - 00:18:48:17
Steve
Thank you.

00:18:48:18 - 00:19:01:16
Alison
Now you mentioned that not everything works. And certainly in my experience, some of my most powerful learning has come from when things didn't work. So are there any lessons learned the hard way that are worth sharing with our marketing audience?

00:19:01:18 - 00:19:24:09
Steve
Yeah. You know, I think I think the hard part behind it is that, you know, marketers, and I'm not a marketer per se. I'm a strategic alliance guy. But we all have egos and we don't like our egos bruised. There are probably examples of a direct mail campaign that didn't work. We've tried some acquisition campaigns that didn't work.

00:19:24:10 - 00:19:49:13
Steve
The biggest lesson is, don't be afraid to try it, but also be really clear on understanding what the data tells you. Understanding what worked. It could have been weather, it could have been geopolitical. It could have been weather impacted by geopolitical with competitive. There's always a reason behind it. But don't be afraid to go back and try something again with a minor tweak.

00:19:49:15 - 00:20:22:03
Steve
The other thing that is really core is document it, so that ten years from now, somebody doesn't pull something out and say, why don't we try this? We need to make sure that we've got a good tracking of what we tried, why it worked, why it didn't work, and all the lessons that go along with it. And I think the last thing is communicate it. Really, really talk to all of the things that happened and we've got a great open, collaborative group of clubs, senior leaders, CEOs, board members who very much want to share and learn and grow together.

00:20:22:04 - 00:20:32:14
Steve
And so, whether you're a small company or a multinational, it's always about just making sure that you, you learn from the past, but you plan for the future.

00:20:32:16 - 00:20:45:02
Alison
Now, Steve, the sad downfall of HBC is an example of our most storied brand in many ways not adopting. Now, since you worked there early in your career, I'm keen to hear your perspective on what they should have done differently.

00:20:45:03 - 00:21:04:12
Steve
Yeah, it's it's very sad. And for those who remember, I'm actually, I actually was an Eaton's guy, a Simpsons guy and then a HBC guy. So I've kind of seen department stores all the way along. It's very sad, and it's very sad because I think they lost their way. And the way that I think about it is in three buckets.

00:21:04:12 - 00:21:29:04
Steve
Number one was, they had an incredible set of brands. It wasn't just one brand. They had an incredible set of brands. For those of us who ever shopped at the Bay or HBC, you know, I think about places like The Room, I think about places like the West End Shop. These brands that were anchors within the anchor of the Hudson's Bay that dragged you in there and you were loyal to that brand.

00:21:29:06 - 00:21:58:15
Steve
There are people in my family, including myself, I was very loyal to the West End Shop. I was never going to some of the other retailers, I was always very loyal to it. And those brands disappeared. So you had these large anchor stores that lost their joie de vive, if you like. They lost their reason for you going there. If you think about something like the Arcadian Court or the Carlu at Eaton's, if you've never been there, but these were destinations for people to go to.

00:21:58:19 - 00:22:25:06
Steve
The Simpsons Christmas windows, then became the Hudson's Bay windows. Again, destinations to get people down there. But that worked for a certain generation, that didn't work for every generation, and I think they kind of lost just the way to grab attention. Bonnie Brooks did a phenomenal job. They did Bay Days, they did scratch and save, so they lost what it meant to be a good retailer, like a really, really good retailer.

00:22:25:08 - 00:22:45:12
Steve
I blame that on the people that were real estate people buying the Bay, not retailers buying the Bay. I think the other thing is, you know, the demise of Zellers. Not everybody like Zellers, but boy, oh boy, you could get everything you wanted in Zellers. And they kind of let it die. I know they brought it back, but it was a bad execution.

00:22:45:16 - 00:23:12:10
Steve
You walk into the Queen Street Bay store and there's a couple table tops of Zellers stuff thrown in the corner. Horrible, horrible, horrible. I think the third thing for me is the data. I think when they closed, when they sold their portfolio, I know the guys at Neo did a great job with the credit card, but I think they kind of lost that hook on the, on the points program, the loyalty program and everything else that went along with that.

00:23:12:11 - 00:23:37:07
Steve
And the biggest area for me is the HBC signature, the heritage of The Bay. We live in, you know, north of Toronto, and we have Bay throws and Bay blankets in most of the rooms. That's an incredible opportunity that I think they lost by not having a real signature shop. So to me, it's that whole destination piece of creating why people go to a retail store.

00:23:37:09 - 00:23:50:01
Steve
Simons does a great job. The department store is not dead. Simons does a great job, and the Bay could have learned from what Simons has done if they really wanted to understand, but I think they got rid of the retailers, and that's unfortunate.

00:23:50:03 - 00:24:04:20
Alison
Now, I'm still holding out a little bit of hope that someone's going to step in and buy the HBC brand and the famous stripes. So if that comes to be, what advice would you offer to new owners to relaunch and rejuvenate this HBC signature line?

00:24:04:21 - 00:24:24:08
Steve
Yeah, I think, I think it is the legacy, and it's a great time to do it, right? With the rebirth of national pride and unification. And if you think about what HBC did, they didn't just create a retail store, they actually built Canada. Look at the history of them. There's a great book that was done on the history of the blankets.

00:24:24:08 - 00:24:43:00
Steve
So right now would be an incredible time to go out and do the signature. So if you think about the clothing from the Olympics, if you think about the signature brand, the blankets, I always wanted one of those canoes. I never got one of those canoes. I would love to have one. So if somebody could do it, they could do a store within a store.

00:24:43:00 - 00:25:09:02
Steve
So Simons would be a great example. Roots. Even Harry Rosen or somebody like that could be a great example of creating a store within a store of the signature shot. I think also maybe rebirthing some of the brands. West End, The Room. Going back to the legacy of HBC, you could really tug at the heartstrings of Canadians who were trying to figure out what makes us Canada, and that would be a great example.

00:25:09:04 - 00:25:37:16
Steve
I was very sad when they said that the last six stores are going away now, so I'm not hopeful, but I am hopeful. I still have a very deep sense of love and trust for The Bay, and I really feel for the 9000 employees who were there and the legacy. And I think the Canadian government should step in and grab some of the heritage stuff, but I think it's really a matter of focusing in on the right brand, right time.

00:25:37:18 - 00:25:40:17
Steve
Play the Canadian card and re-own it.

00:25:40:18 - 00:25:46:12
Alison
And you're right there, such a pivotal time right now. And they're so embedded in the history of Canada.

00:25:46:14 - 00:26:04:16
Steve
Yeah I agree I've been going, look at in Manitoba, they have the museum and go and look, you know, when you have the charter that's for sale, unfortunately, which sits at the Queen Street store, that's an incredible document to go and look at it, but read the history of HBC. It's an incredible story.

00:26:04:18 - 00:26:19:13
Alison
Now, Steve, switching gears, you have an incredible breadth of loyalty marketing expertise across quite diverse industries, and that gives you a really unique lens. So I'd like to hear your thoughts on how loyalty marketing will change in the coming 2 to 5 years.

00:26:19:15 - 00:26:51:03
Steve
It's a hard one. Because traditional loyalty is not dead, but traditional loyalty is shifting really rapidly. I've had the pleasure of working for some great organizations, including Air Miles, Hudson's Bay, Aeroplan, which became Amia, running my own consulting business and now working for a company that has loyalty built on trust, not built on currency. So I think what we're starting to hear a lot more of is things like experiential loyalty, the very personalized approach to loyalty.

00:26:51:05 - 00:27:13:00
Steve
One size does not fit all anymore. Those days are done. If you think that all you can do is put a bunch of points out and everybody is going to go, hey, that's really cool, I'm going to join your program, it doesn't work that way anymore. So we have to create these environments in loyalty that feed the, the sort of basis of what do you expect from the loyalty program?

00:27:13:09 - 00:27:37:15
Steve
What do you expect the loyalty program to deliver to you? And how do you expect that experience? Is it a digital-only experience? So I'll give you an example. I'm an Air Canada Aeroplan super Elite member, which means I fly a lot. So there's very strong expectations that we have, as Aeroplan members, but as super elite members, even more, or 75K or 50K or whatever else.

00:27:37:17 - 00:28:01:05
Steve
So how do you execute, and Air Canada has done a really good job on changing the way that that execution happens, from little things like a concierge who meets you, or you get an email, or you get the thank you card. I'm a Bonvoy guy. Yes. I stay in a lot of hotels, so when they give me an upgrade, that feels good, but I want to make sure water is in my room because that's really important.

00:28:01:05 - 00:28:28:01
Steve
I don't want to be in the last end of the hallway. So that personalization, the leveraging of data is really, really, really core still to what we do as loyalty marketers. I think the other part, Alison, is the redemption piece. So you fly a lot. I'm sure you're, you belong to frequent flier programs. You want to make sure that when you're doing the redemption, it's a seamless experience.

00:28:28:01 - 00:28:44:21
Steve
You don't want a whole bunch of hoops and bounds to do it. So they've got to make sure that they've got that right messaging. And by the way, if I've just done a redemption and I used up all my points, please don't send me a note to say now's the time to do your redemption. You know I just did something.

00:28:44:21 - 00:29:08:04
Steve
So again, it's the leveraging of data. And listen, the programs do a great job. I'm really impressed by the the sort of smaller programs, but also the way that the big programs are adapting. Air Miles is adapting, Scene Plus is adapting. Aeroplan is adapting. Westjet's just relaunched their program away from dollars to points, so loyalty is not dead in Canada.

00:29:08:04 - 00:29:25:13
Steve
Loyalty has got an incredible future. But I think what you're going to start to find is experiential trust. Non-traditional is going to really be the future. And that only works if you got good use of data, good use of trust and good use of, you know, the right partner mix and the right blend of redemptions and accumulation.

00:29:25:13 - 00:29:28:17
Steve
So I'm very excited for the future of loyalty in Canada.

00:29:28:19 - 00:29:51:02
Alison
That's a great perspective. And building on what you shared about relevance and timing, we did some new CMA research, but one of the things we found from Canadians is when they get irrelevant ads or an ad after they've already bought something, it really damages the trust they have for the brand, to the point that 77% of them think less of the brand and will consider switching.

00:29:51:04 - 00:30:11:17
Steve
Yeah. It's fascinating. Get on a plane one day and look at the tags on somebody's bag. There are some Aeroplan Super Elite tags that are ten years old. People still have a great amount of pride, so when I get my bag tags, they go right on my right on my briefcase and it's it's for nothing else. It doesn't do anything other than it just,

00:30:11:19 - 00:30:34:00
Steve
I know. All those things are so much why people do enjoy loyalty programs. I'm sure you belong to multiples. You may be more loyal to one than the other. I won't ask which one is which, but we join them for a very specific reason and we want to get something out of that. They're free. We're not a free program, but again, we're not a loyalty program.

00:30:34:00 - 00:30:40:07
Steve
We're a membership program that's got loyalty at its core. And trust at its core. And that's really important.

00:30:40:09 - 00:31:00:00
Alison
Now, Steve, I'd love to end by having you share your career advice for our audience. You've got such an outstanding and long-standing career, and I absolutely know that our members would benefit from learning from your journey. So what's one piece of advice that you would share with aspiring marketers who would love to follow in your footsteps?

00:31:00:02 - 00:31:20:20
Steve
I think, and listen, I have a son who works in the loyalty industry. I've talked to a bunch of young folks that are in university and college. I tell them all the same thing, and I think it's really important. Number one is, you don't really know where your past going to take you. You really don't. What's important is you build relationships.

00:31:20:22 - 00:31:43:13
Steve
You build an incredible network. It's a lot of work to do. But most of my journey has been built based on people that I've met along the way. Whether that was how I got into Air Miles or how I got into Hudson's Bay or whatever. It could be. My loyalty business with Joanna Walker, Loyalty and Co., was built on the back of referral, so leverage networks.

00:31:43:13 - 00:32:02:18
Steve
Don't be afraid to ask your parents for advice. They know more than you think they do. I think the other part is that the industry changes so quickly. So stay on top of it. Stay relevant. Stay, you know, research like crazy, understand what's going on, try to stay ahead of the game. It's a bit of a chess game, life.

00:32:02:20 - 00:32:24:00
Steve
So you just don't know who's going to make the next move and be really prepared sometimes just to take a chance. I've taken chances in my career. They didn't all work, but I don't regret anything in my career. Really, I tell everybody, make sure that you've got this piece. And the last piece of advice to give them? You're a 22-year old, you just graduated university.

00:32:24:00 - 00:32:44:08
Steve
Nobody cares that you cut grass for ten years. Figure out what differentiates you. Tell your story. Tell the story that makes you different from somebody else, because you've got a lot of competition, a lot of competition in LinkedIn and Indeed and everything else that's out there. So really learn your elevator pitch on why should I hire Alison Simpson?

00:32:44:08 - 00:32:54:08
Steve
Who are you? And don't be afraid, as I did, to step out into a hallway and say, hi, I'm Steve, you must be Alison. I've heard lots about you, because that's how we met.

00:32:54:10 - 00:33:15:01
Alison
That is such outstanding advice, Steve. Thank you so much. I also want to thank you. Great conversation. Absolutely love the CAA story and how you you continue to evolve the business and all of the very relevant insights and learning that you've share that will benefit marketers, whether they're with longstanding Canadian, U.S. or international brands or more nascent brands. So a huge thank you.

00:33:15:04 - 00:33:24:08
Steve
Well, we're very happy to do it. We're very proud to be CMA members, and we love the work that you're doing and will continue to be supportive. So anything we can do to help, we're happy to.

00:33:24:08 - 00:33:26:02
Alison
Many thanks.

00:33:26:03 - 00:33:28:18
Steve
You're very welcome.

00:33:28:19 - 00:33:41:10
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this live episode of CMA Connect for CMA Marketing Week 2025, Alison Simpson the CEO of the CMA welcomes Neil Patel, New York Times bestselling author, and the Founder of NP Digital. Their conversation covers various topics from the impact of AI on marketing, and the importance of continuous learning and adaptation, to the changing nature of brand control and exposing the myth of controlling narratives. Listen in as Alison and Neil discuss the evolving landscape of the marketing profession in Canada and decide for yourself if brands still matter. 

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:05
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:07 - 00:00:45:09
Alison
So it's an absolute pleasure to welcome everyone in the room today, as well as the hundreds of Canadians that are joining us from across the country to this live version of CMA connect. As we've heard throughout the morning, marketing isn't just changing. It is absolutely being redefined in real time. And it's so important to take time to reflect and digest and make sure that our pivoting makes sense.

00:00:45:11 - 00:01:07:03
Alison
It's absolutely, very much a period of test and learn as well. And the most recent panel did a phenomenal job of sharing how that's working for them as well. And they both panels today have really given us a lot to reflect on. So building on that theme, I'm thrilled to be joined by Neil Patel and Years time bestselling author and also the founder of NP digital.

00:01:07:05 - 00:01:32:16
Alison
He's going to be joining me on stage momentarily, but while he's coming up, I will share a little bit about Neil. Neil's full service digital marketing agency has helped industry giants like Microsoft and Google, just to name a couple, grow through revolutionary marketing strategies. He also has a marketing school podcast that attracts over 1 million listeners monthly. The United Nations recognized Neil as one of the top 100 entrepreneurs under the age of 35.

00:01:32:18 - 00:01:49:15
Alison
Oh, and The Wall Street Journal cited him as a top influencer on the web, just around things out. He made Forbes list of the top ten marketers. You know what? I thought my career was going pretty well until I started to learn a little bit more about Neil. So, you know, I've had the pleasure of meeting and doing a CME session with him last year.

00:01:49:15 - 00:01:52:18
Alison
So it's great to welcome you back to Canada.

00:01:52:20 - 00:01:56:02
Neil
Thank you. Thank you.

00:01:56:04 - 00:02:03:23
Alison
So we're going to jump right in. What are the biggest rules you've seen rewritten. And then how are you going to rate us on our ability to adapt to those rules.

00:02:04:01 - 00:02:25:02
Neil
Yeah. So when you're thinking about the rules of marketing, people just used to assume marketing wasn't very black and white. I'm not talking about from the creative aspect, but in marketing, in general, people are like, okay, you spend money on clicks and you get traffic to your website, you generate sales, you rank on Google, you get clicks, you generate sales.

00:02:25:02 - 00:02:48:06
Neil
And one of the biggest rules has been changed in marketing is platforms now are trying to optimize keeping people on their own platform, their own site, instead of sending people off to your website. Marcus believe that you would have to have people coming to your website to drive revenue and sales. You can now purchase on Instagram or TikTok without ever leaving that platform.

00:02:48:09 - 00:03:13:04
Neil
The business generates revenue and Instagram and TikTok, so have the user. They sell them more products, more services. So I would say the biggest rule that I'm seeing being rewritten right now is traditional form of marketing. Of sending them to a business to generate revenue is no longer the case. A business can make money on multiple platforms, and it's no longer about getting people over to your brand, your website.

00:03:13:10 - 00:03:22:14
Neil
It's more so capturing their attention on whatever platform they are on and then selling them right then and there on that platform natively.

00:03:22:16 - 00:03:26:17
Alison
And how are you writing marketers overall in our ability to adapt to that?

00:03:26:19 - 00:03:53:09
Neil
Marketers have been adapting really well. What we typically see is the marketers who work for SMEs tend to adapt first, and then the marketers who work at large corporations typically adapt second, because it just takes time and energy. And when you're a big corporation, you know, that's publicly traded, that it has $100 billion market cap. It takes time to make adjustments versus when you're a five person start.

00:03:53:11 - 00:04:00:23
Alison
Now you also work with a lot of big tech organizations. So are they a bit more agile or they're still suffering from the same?

00:04:01:01 - 00:04:04:23
Neil
They're still suffering from the same thing that all the other corporations are.

00:04:05:01 - 00:04:16:14
Alison
So, Neil, as we look to the future, there are some experts out there that are starting to question will brands continue to be relevant? So in your opinion, will Rand still matter in an age of algorithms and hyper personalization?

00:04:16:16 - 00:04:39:00
Neil
AI brands, I think, matter more than ever before. Think of AI overviews. You do a search you may get mentioned in a overviews you don't necessarily always get a click back to your website. You do a search on ChatGPT. You may see a brand or a product or service recommended. You may end up purchasing later on. You may not purchase at all, but it's very rare that you're actually clicking over to the website.

00:04:39:06 - 00:04:57:07
Neil
You see a real on Instagram or video. Whatever you want and calling it short form. See a product or service mention you don't go and buy right away. In most cases. That brand recognition, though, is what eventually leads to a sale. In marketing, they call something the rule of seven. Or there's this thing called the Rule of seven.

00:04:57:07 - 00:05:24:03
Neil
When someone sees or interacts with your brand seven times, they're much more likely to engage, become a customer, evangelize. And we started looking at price points in both B2C and B2B. Of course, the cheaper the price point, the less interaction someone needed with the brand before they purchase. But when we looked at price points across the whole board for both B2B and B2C, the average number of interactions someone has with the brand when we did a study was around 11.

00:05:24:08 - 00:05:34:22
Neil
So branding is more important than ever, because if you're not touching people multiple times and you're not saying top of mind, you're less likely to drive that sale when they're ready to make that decision.

00:05:35:00 - 00:05:56:14
Alison
Now, awareness and trust in a brand is obviously yes. We heard the panel talk about the emotional part of a brand. It's there's always going to be product features and benefits. But as humans we react emotionally. And we also heard a lot about authenticity. What else would you add to what makes a brand as important or even more important today?

00:05:56:16 - 00:06:12:05
Neil
So if you want your brand to be super important, I would say you got to figure out an angle. You know, trust, authenticity. These are all a lot of things that markers talk about. And it's been there for a very long time. But what are you doing that's different? So I'll give you a great example of this right.

00:06:12:07 - 00:06:37:01
Neil
I'm listening in. I'm from the States. I'm not familiar with as many Canadian brands as you guys may be. So one of the panelists before me was from Farm Girl. Never heard of it. I have kids, don't give them cereal in the morning. Why? It's terrible for you in most cases, right? The advantage you guys have here in Canada is you guys typically have cleaner ingredients.

00:06:37:03 - 00:07:01:00
Neil
Our box of FrootLoops is much worse, at least from what we see on Instagram Reels when they compare versus what the Canadian version of FrootLoops is. All right, so when I saw Farm Girl, the first thing I did, even if there's a tariff for me, I tried to purchase it on Amazon, I think was like 20 something dollars, USD per package.

00:07:01:00 - 00:07:17:01
Neil
I added three to a cart, and then I was like, I'm like, wait, I'm here for extra like few hours. Can I just go to the grocery store and pick some up? Because my suitcase is half empty? I'm literally here for a day, right? Like I should just go to the grocery store and just see if I can shove a ton in.

00:07:17:03 - 00:07:54:05
Neil
I don't know what's going to happen at the customs or I'm Global Entry, so hopefully I don't get any beef, but that was a unique angle, solving a problem that people have. When I grew up, I eat cereal and my parents didn't know any better. Immigrants from India, you know, they look at it as like, anything's great. We're not living on the street, you know, give your kid whatever is on sale, affordable cut coupons, etc. at this point in time, we're much more educated as parents then I would say that the previous generations were, and it has nothing to do with intellect.

00:07:54:05 - 00:08:17:21
Neil
I think a lot of it has to do with the data and the social platforms pushing out so much information that we're able to consume it and learn more. But going back to it, that brand stood out to me. She's booming. Great growth. I'm happy for her. But as a consumer, her success of her generating tons of revenue and growing fast is why I would buy the product.

00:08:18:02 - 00:08:38:10
Neil
I'm buying the product. You know, either it's going to be Amazon or in-store if I can find it, but I'm buying the product for one simple reason a unique value proposition. Solving a very important problem. Parent busy in the morning. Don't want to give them crap food. Don't want to spend tons of money on Uber Eats to get restaurant quality food in there.

00:08:38:10 - 00:08:58:22
Neil
I tend to do the morning shift. Terrible cook healthy cereal? Why not? Right? No, no. But in the US, I don't think there is a skill. Right. Or I would do skip whatever it may and whatever it may end up being right. But that is why I was willing to purchase that brand. And to me that is something unique.

00:08:59:00 - 00:09:17:12
Neil
Okay. And when you see something unique like that, people end up latching on and they see fast growth. I don't know her revenue numbers, but I bet you there in the eight figures sounds like a new business. But if I had to place a bet, I would bet you there are an eight figures. Why did they scale so fast?

00:09:17:17 - 00:09:33:13
Neil
That brand did something unique and new that people have never experienced before. Now there may have been another competitor who did exactly what she did a year or two earlier, but if it doesn't get out there and no one talks about it, then in most to most people it doesn't exist.

00:09:33:15 - 00:09:38:04
Alison
So Jennifer, you have at least one sale from your appearance this morning. I suspect you have a lot more in the audience too.

00:09:38:04 - 00:09:42:02
Neil
Well, minimum of three because I added three different flavours to my cart.

00:09:42:04 - 00:09:57:11
Alison
So it wouldn't be Marketing Week if we didn't talk about AI with at least one question. Yeah, clearly it's transforming marketing. How do you see it impacting marketing? And probably more importantly, what are the skills you think we as marketers need to build moving forward?

00:09:57:13 - 00:10:21:22
Neil
So I was here last year and I was a center and people were discussing AI and how it's going to crush everything. It's going to turn everything, you know, upside down on the pyramid and the way organizations do business is going to be drastically different. All right. So we've seen a lot of data. I've always been on a different side of AI than what I think a lot of marketers and businesses believe.

00:10:22:00 - 00:10:39:22
Neil
Keep in mind though, a lot of this is not my opinion. I talked to people who are actually coding these products, and I speak with the people from these platforms like no joke, whether it's in their offices or dinners. Like, I know some of the top guys, as you know, these corporations that are worth a crack load of money.

00:10:39:22 - 00:11:01:09
Neil
And although their goal is to make AI as seamless as possible and help you in every aspect, there's a few big problems that most marketers aren't taking into consideration. So the first problem is, is the way I works is it takes all the data inputs and it creates outputs based on what you asked, but it learns from all the inputs.

00:11:01:15 - 00:11:19:15
Neil
The problem with AI is those inputs are all accurate and there's not an easy way to solve this. It's like do a Google search. Have you ever noticed that when you do a Google search, some of the information you read is just off? Raise your hand. Okay, almost everyone in here is raising your hand. You don't think Google hasn't tried to solve this?

00:11:19:15 - 00:11:39:08
Neil
They've been trying to solve this for ages. Like when I say ages almost since when they started. It's hard. Oh, what are you going to base on? Backlinks? Well, a lot of people link to inaccurate information. Comments a lot of people comment on something because, you know, whether you want to talk about how their politics or religion, there's people on both sides.

00:11:39:11 - 00:12:03:07
Neil
So it creates polarizing views. Right? A great example of this is the vaccines. When the vaccines first came about, when Covid, people in different parts of the world were getting shunned, if they did not take the vaccine. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I'm not here to get political. But if I fast forward today and I'm not going to have you guys raise your hands because, again, not trying to get political, I bet almost everyone in this room does not get booster shots.

00:12:03:12 - 00:12:27:00
Neil
I don't even need to raise your hand. I can see the data in the earnings calls. Right? These companies are publicly traded. It's just the reality. But when it first came out, most people had a different tune about vaccines. And it doesn't mean that the government is right or wrong or pharmaceuticals right or wrong. But what I'm getting at is that information online of what people are posting was very polarizing or people had different views.

00:12:27:00 - 00:12:45:20
Neil
So when I pulls in that, how do they know what is right or wrong? It makes things really complex. So today when you ask AI to help you with something, you need humans in the loop to review. When you have a I help you with a marketing campaign and come up with a strategy and everyone starts to do that.

00:12:45:21 - 00:13:09:09
Neil
How is it really going to be differentiated? The creativity that people have is what makes marketing truly unique and amazing. But here's the thing and marketing is here to stay. It is going to make the whole industry move faster, much more efficient. And what you'll see is people will get things done much faster and waste a lot less money.

00:13:09:09 - 00:13:29:08
Neil
But even then you're going to still have humans in the loop. It's just AI is going to replace a lot of the D and C players. I eventually believe it will start replacing B players as well. We're quite a ways from that. When you want to look at how much AI has advanced in the past year, I understand that you can see like, oh wow, look at this video that it created.

00:13:29:08 - 00:13:49:13
Neil
Look at this action figure turn me into. But look at it from a usability perspective, from your work that you're performing on a daily basis. You want it to have a great content for you. Has it really drastically improve the quality of that content over the last six months? Not as much compared to when it first came out in the first year.

00:13:49:14 - 00:14:17:04
Neil
There was so much more progress that we would see in the quality of improvements, but it's taking longer for you to see leaps and bounds and improvements for things like content quality. And the reason being is every percent improvement is a lot more work than at its earlier stages. Again, it is here to stay. It is going to replace a lot of the bottom feeders or the people who aren't that great at their job, and it's going to make the people who are really good at their job more valuable.

00:14:17:04 - 00:14:25:12
Neil
They're going to get paid more, and you got to figure out how you continue to learn and adapt to try to stay in that top percent style in whatever industry or so.

00:14:25:12 - 00:14:39:00
Alison
Clearly, everyone that's tuned in today, if they're not already in a player, wants to be in a player, want a long term career in marketing. So what skills do we need to be adapting or growing in order to make sure that we're here in the long term?

00:14:39:02 - 00:15:01:20
Neil
The first thing is, is learn how to use all the AI tools. When I say learn how to use them, I'm not talking about just putting in a prompt into ChatGPT. Think about the KPIs your department, you or the business has to hit. What are the things that you can do to help? I get you there faster, more efficiently, and figure out ways to use the tools to show positive traction.

00:15:02:00 - 00:15:18:02
Neil
Not hey look, I use ChatGPT and I did all this cool stuff for the last two days. Oh great. And they're like, yeah, the fast forward six months. Look at all this crazy stuff I did the last six months. What were the results in traffic? Brand recognition, revenue leads. They're like, oh, it saved me a lot of time.

00:15:18:02 - 00:15:40:09
Neil
What did you do with the extra time? I did more of that stuff, but it didn't produce results. If it doesn't produce results, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. And I'm not saying I can't produce results. It's that most marketers are using it for stuff that is a waste of time, and you need to start focusing on how can you use these tools to not only help you do your job better, but show better results?

00:15:40:13 - 00:16:02:06
Neil
And a lot of that's going to come from experimentation. The second thing is continue to go to events and learn. You never will know everything. And that's okay. I've been in this space for more than 20 years, 24 years now. It's changed drastically. And some people ask me when I'm at some of these events, sometimes I talk to these college kids and they're like, why did you waste 15 20 minutes talking to a college kid?

00:16:02:06 - 00:16:20:11
Neil
Are they going to become a customer? I'm like, no, like, so why did do they know more about marketing than you? I'm like, well, it depends. And they're like, what are you talk to? Like? Well, they grew up using these platforms. I didn't they see some of these trends and patterns before I do. What can I learn from them that I don't understand?

00:16:20:17 - 00:16:39:10
Neil
And that's what you have to do when you go to these events is network with everyone, because you don't know who you're going to learn from, and never judge someone by their job title or the size of the company they work out, or their net worth, or the way they dress. You literally can learn from anyone, and when you do that, you'll become a much better person.

00:16:39:12 - 00:17:08:04
Neil
The third thing, thank you. The third thing is continually read every single day, but limit it if you want to read for leisure, by all means, read as much as you want. But what I see people doing in marketing is continue reading articles and blogs and books, and they may read for 4 or 5 hours a day instead of saying, hey, I'm going to try to read for 30 minutes or an hour and then go and implement what I learned.

00:17:08:06 - 00:17:36:07
Neil
So you read all these cool things that are happening with AI or marketing or branding, or even listen on the panel or a podcast, but very few people take that knowledge and do anything with it. Try to experiment. You're probably not gonna be able to do it daily, but try to implement one thing that you learned from a podcast or book a blog article at least once a week, and you'll start slowly growing your skill set as a marker, and you'll start seeing better results.

00:17:36:09 - 00:17:55:09
Neil
And if I give you one last bonus tip when it comes to becoming better as an individual, don't just look at things as KPIs. Don't just look at it. Here's the year I gotta hit this goal. I want you to also start looking from a different lens. And that lens is what are all the problems that are holding us back from growing.

00:17:55:15 - 00:18:12:14
Neil
We're hitting our numbers now. Break it down to what are bite size things that can be fixed within a week, and start just tackling them one by one. People really do miss most their goals and objectives within an organization, and the reason being is they shoot for, hey, I got to do this.

00:18:12:14 - 00:18:13:12
Alison
In a year.

00:18:13:14 - 00:18:28:02
Neil
And they don't know how to get there. But if you start looking at things as problems and you start fixing them one by one, you fast forward three months, six months, you're like, whoa, we've made a lot of progress, and we're seeing it in our numbers, and you're just tackling a lot of the issues you have as an organization.

00:18:28:07 - 00:18:30:20
Neil
And when you tackle them, usually see growth.

00:18:30:22 - 00:19:01:14
Alison
So remarkably great advice. I love the learn by doing. I love sort of chunking it out. And those like small steps lead to with the benefit of time, huge outcomes. I also love you can learn from anyone. So in any beyond networking, in events, in any organization you're part of, if you have the opportunity to speak to students or anyone at any level in an organization, the amount of incredible insights and ideas that come out and that you can benefit from at any level in the organization is incredibly powerful.

00:19:01:16 - 00:19:31:16
Alison
And then your first piece of advice resonates the most with me. Anyone that wants to be future proofing your career in marketing, if you are doing work that is driving a business forward, that is growing the business and delivering results, there is no better way to futureproof yourself. And as a profession, all of us need to be much more accountable and embracing of that, that commercial value that we're driving and really do a good job of advocating for the critical role that marketing plays in building brands and building businesses today. So, Neil, outstanding advice on all four counts.

00:19:36:13 - 00:19:40:22
Neil
Yeah. Thank you.

00:19:41:00 - 00:20:01:01
Neil
And one last thing. When it comes to AI, the amount of businesses we interact with across the world that still have a move to the cloud is ridiculously high. It just. And the reason I say that is air is definitely here. The cloud has been here for a long time and we all know it's here to stay. Businesses don't adapt as fast as most people think.

00:20:01:04 - 00:20:13:07
Neil
This is why startups can overtake trillion dollar companies is because large organizations inherently move slow. Politics, bureaucracy, see a lot of people, a lot of moving parts.

00:20:13:09 - 00:20:21:20
Alison
So decentralized technologies are reshaping how consumers are interacting with brands. How might this shift influence loyalty programs and engagement strategies?

00:20:21:22 - 00:20:47:13
Neil
Yeah. So let's first go with loyalty programs, right? I think there's actually going to be a huge shift to loyalty programs over time. Which leads to the second part. And how is this going to decentralization, going to relate companies just abroad. If you look at the pattern right now, people use multiple social platforms. I have people raise their hand because I bet if I ask you how many social platforms you use, most of you guys can raise your hand for one.

00:20:47:13 - 00:21:10:03
Neil
Actually, all of you will. Or almost all most you going to raise your hands or to most your hands will raise your hands for three a month. But the moment I ask you if you use four social media platforms a month, very few you're going to raise your hands. Five is going to really drop, but the average person logs in and uses 6.6 social platforms a month, according to Sprout Social 6.6 and the same thing is happening with search.

00:21:10:06 - 00:21:35:19
Neil
People are starting to use Google ChatGPT, they're starting to use, you know, perplexity and the list goes on and on and on. The same goes with tools and a lot of the tech out there people are using not platforms. And what you're going to end up seeing is technology is everywhere, and the way regulation ends up working is these companies are more likely to get split apart at this point than to be able to buy up their competitors.

00:21:35:21 - 00:22:06:00
Neil
And it's not a US thing. It's not a Canada thing. It's a global thing. If the US approves the acquisition, then you know, Europe may not. The perfect example of this is there's Pinterest and Snap. They don't make anywhere near the amount of money that Facebook makes. Their stocks are struggling. Do you think an ideal world Google would just buy X, Pinterest, snap and all these platforms because they have the biggest ad ecosystem they can just drive tons of advertisers and ads on their platform and just use the revenue without doing much work.

00:22:06:02 - 00:22:24:03
Neil
This is not a hypothetical. This is actually if they bought it, you would see the revenue just skyrocket. And what I'm getting at is they can't because governments globally will not allow them to. You had to get a lot to prove to do one of these acquisitions. So what you're going to start seeing is technology can truly be fragmented.

00:22:24:03 - 00:22:47:06
Neil
People will use it for what it is. People started skirting around the law. A great example of this is did you know that Amazon and Google and Facebook have not bought in that many AI companies? Right. I get they're buying some companies here or there, but do you know what they did? Hey, you should open source your technology and we'll take a lot of your employees and pay you a license deal to use that technology.

00:22:47:09 - 00:23:23:18
Neil
This is their way of getting around monopolistic issues or laws or the government's not wanting them to buy up competitors and then be the only player in town. And what you'll end up seeing is technology will be out there from multiple platforms. And these platforms. The biggest trend that you're going to see is you'll have to not only learn to use technology for whatever it is and all the data won't be stored in one place because of rules and regulation, but these platforms will try to keep you on there for everything, including things like loyalty programs, the all in one apps that you see in Asia.

00:23:23:20 - 00:23:41:13
Neil
You bet you're going to start seeing more of them here in Canada. What it is be easier. Just like you can purchase a product now on Instagram that when you're in Starbucks, use it through your Instagram app and you get hooked up. It's easier to do that than it is to download a Starbucks app, right? And that's what you're going to end up seeing.

00:23:41:19 - 00:23:51:02
Neil
And then the data is going to be per platform, and you're going to have no choice but to use each platform for what it is. And data and analytics will be more important than ever.

00:23:51:04 - 00:24:07:19
Alison
So marketers, especially in a soft economy, especially when there's uncertainty, there's a lot of pressure for short term results. And short term results are really important. But short term results only last when you're also doing long term brand building. So how can marketers balance the two?

00:24:07:21 - 00:24:31:19
Neil
Yeah, you don't have a choice. Ideally, you need to think long term with your marketing. But people need short term results, especially when the economy is bad. So I like using the 8020 rule 20% of your efforts should be focused on short term things that have a positive ROI. 80% should be long term, but just because they're long term doesn't mean you shouldn't see results within two months, three months, six months, eight months, 12 months.

00:24:31:19 - 00:24:48:19
Neil
It should get progressively better over time. It may not be in full effect until a year or two, but it doesn't mean that you can't see some results within three months. When you're thinking long term, like, oh cool, we're going to do this. We won't see any results until year four. You're probably doing something wrong with your long term approach.

00:24:48:21 - 00:24:56:19
Alison
With the rise of user generated content and influencer marketing, how can brands maintain narrative control while still embracing these channels?

00:24:56:21 - 00:25:17:12
Neil
You cannot maintain narrative control. That is a false sense of reality. I can go buy Farm Girl cereal between all my social platforms. I have millions of followers, and hypothetically, if I had a terrible experience, I bet you I'm going to have a delightful experience. This is just a hypothetical. I could say, look how bad the cereal is and, you know, allergic reaction and all this kind of stuff.

00:25:17:12 - 00:25:42:19
Neil
But I looked at the ingredients. I was literally zooming in on my phone, and Amazon really clean ingredients, and that's when I added it to the cart, right? I literally swiped and zoomed in. And then on the flip side, I can say, look at this. I've had amazing experience. Look at my kids. You know, it's not getting them addicted to, you know, 50g of sugar per serving or something crazy like that because it's healthy, it's well balanced, yada yada, yada.

00:25:42:19 - 00:25:58:14
Neil
You guys get the point. And I haven't looked at the ingredients, but I'm assuming it is more I haven't analyzed ingredients fully, but I'm assuming it's much more well-balanced. And let's say, you know, a general cereal that you pick up off the grocery aisle. But I can say something good, or I can say something bad. She can't control that.

00:25:58:17 - 00:26:19:18
Neil
She can try to combat that. But you can't control the narrative. You can respond to the narratives. You can try to create your own narrative, but you will not be able to ever control the narrative ever again. And that's the reality. Doesn't matter what country that you're targeting or focusing, you cannot control the narrative anymore. That's how social media works.

00:26:19:20 - 00:26:43:11
Neil
All you can do is respond and do your best. And this is when I tell people, when you have some people saying bad things or negative things, try to respond and don't be combative unless they're really awesome, but try to do it in a polite way and show them where they can do to improve. You know, if they did something wrong, they use a product or service in the wrong way, or if they didn't say thank you for the feedback.

00:26:43:11 - 00:26:58:18
Neil
I'm really sorry you're disappointed. If there's anything we can do to make it right, please let us know. And we're going to take this feedback and work on improving our product and service. And this is how. But just being transparent and honest and just being public about it, a lot of times it does a lot of good.

00:26:58:20 - 00:27:18:07
Alison
So building on that, having it goes back to the importance of brand building and having brand advocates, because even more powerful than the brand, apologizing is when your community steps up and apologizes or helps combat the negative as well. So it just speaks to performance marketing and brand building. It shouldn't be one or the other. It needs to be both.

00:27:18:09 - 00:27:41:19
Neil
Yes, but your community is more likely to respond and defend you if they understand that as an organization that you guys are willing to listen. If you don't listen, then you're going to be screwed. You know, that's the reality. Someone's going to go to the competition. There was a panelist earlier was talking about mortgages and how they adopted, people wanting better rates, refinancing.

00:27:41:21 - 00:28:05:18
Neil
Now the back story. But they figured out a partnership with another company based on what I heard, and they figured out a solution for their customers. And that's example of listening. People just want to know that you listen. If you listen, it's okay if you make mistakes, everyone does. But if you listen and you're willing to adapt, admit when you're wrong and showcase how you're going to improve, you'll get the community to rally behind you.

00:28:05:23 - 00:28:13:12
Neil
But if you don't and you're just going to be arrogant, be like, no, no, no, you're wrong. I'm smarter than you. Then why would anyone care?

00:28:13:14 - 00:28:21:07
Alison
So is immersive digital experiences evolve? How should brands prepare to build and sustain their identity in virtual spaces?

00:28:21:09 - 00:28:45:17
Neil
Yeah, so virtual spaces are going to be very similar to what you see right now on the web. It's all digital. You have a website, you have brand guidelines. Imagine a virtual mall and someone wearing augmented reality glasses like Oculus or Apple Vision Pro, but cool technology. I'm just waiting for the glasses format. I'm like, dude, I thought I was going to travel with it.

00:28:45:19 - 00:29:03:08
Neil
The carrying case is literally a backpack and I'm like, I can't fit a backpack with in my backpack. How am I getting with my laptop at this point? Right? But just like you have brand guidelines for the web, your social media, your website, you will have the same for things like virtual reality and virtual spaces. There's not much of a difference.

00:29:03:10 - 00:29:25:04
Neil
Even when corporations integrate their brand within games, which we're starting to see more and more, and that's starting to become more normal. What happens? Brands not only get make money from this, right a game, they get paid for brand integrating within their virtual or, you know, their characters or uniforms or whatever it may be, but they have brand guidelines, just like you see with the offline world.

00:29:25:07 - 00:29:51:00
Neil
And we're seeing companies now being like, oh, let's mix Oreos in with protein powder and be like Oreo protein powder. All right. You're using Oreos name. There's definitely brand guidelines that you're going to have to follow from Oreo when you integrate their product. And if you don't believe me, once you sign the deal with them, you'll see that they'll force you to use certain types of colors, logos, etc. they're way for integration.

00:29:51:02 - 00:29:54:23
Neil
And you're going to see this whether it's virtual or in the traditional sense.

00:29:55:01 - 00:30:04:08
Alison
So our event this one is called exclusively for the bright. So in today's climate and looking ahead, what do you believe is the bravest move a marketer can make and why?

00:30:04:10 - 00:30:27:19
Neil
The bravest move that I've seen marketers do is figure out how to crush their existing model and transform into a new model. You look at Shopify, Canadian company, one of the best products out there in the e-commerce realm, period, right? You can look at their earnings as proof they built the email product they want in marketing there as a business.

00:30:27:19 - 00:30:47:18
Neil
They want everyone to use their own systems. What do they eventually end up doing? Partnering with Klaviyo, taking a big cut, crushing what they actually wanted because they did what they thought was better for the user or the future based on what they saw for adoption. Most people aren't willing to do that. The CEO of that company, I think is exceptionally brilliant.

00:30:48:00 - 00:31:15:05
Neil
I'm not talking about just from a intellect standpoint, definitely a smart, but I'm talking about he's willing to do stuff that most companies would not be willing to do when he knows it's the right fit for the long run. Think about doing that for everything. You know, we have marketing tools like Uber has announced the public we were burning three, 400 grand a month on these tools at the very beginning and releasing them for free, and they still are for free.

00:31:15:05 - 00:31:31:05
Neil
There are paid versions, but most of it's free, 80 plus percent of it. And people are like, you're crazy. And I'm like, this is actually cheaper than spending money on paid ads. And I'm like, it will be. But at the beginning it was cost me 3 or 400 grand a month, and I was barely getting any leads from it, and I was just eating a ton of money.

00:31:31:08 - 00:31:54:00
Neil
Now when I do the back end math, it would be something like $6 million a month worth of ad spend to generate similar results. Doing what's unconventional that people haven't tried before taking those risks is really how you be brave and I've been to Canada many times. People tell me Canadians are conservative. People tell me Canadians can't take risks.

00:31:54:02 - 00:32:14:12
Neil
I call it bull. They're smart people. You guys can do anything. You guys put your minds here. You guys have built some amazing corporations throughout history. And not just that, people all over the world are using Canada products. Believe in yourselves. You can do anything you put your mind to. You don't have to take the traditional route. We're a global company with people.

00:32:14:12 - 00:32:38:12
Neil
In 28 countries. I think some of the best talent is here in Canada. We run our creative globally. Out of Canada has nothing to do with currency exchange. You know, people talk about Canada as currency exchange. I don't look at it that way. You want to know why we run our creative here from Canada? Because we have some of the best creative talent we've ever found here in Canada.

00:32:38:17 - 00:32:44:09
Neil
Seriously, like, you guys have amazing talent here. Don't count yourselves out.

00:32:44:15 - 00:32:47:14
Alison
You're doing it because you're very smart. That's why you're doing it.

00:32:47:19 - 00:33:06:00
Neil
We did it because seriously, when we look for the talent, we look globally. It was amazing. Tanya. Ronnie, one of our managing directors in Canada, one of our best global leaders. Right. He's from the side that speaks French. The.

00:33:06:02 - 00:33:23:09
Alison
So, Neil, you clearly have a very enviable career. And I know everyone that's tuned in today and is with us in person would benefit from learning from your journey. So what's one piece of advice that you would leave our listeners with who want to follow in your success in your entrepreneurial career path?

00:33:23:11 - 00:33:45:07
Neil
The biggest thing that I've learned and knows from my mom if you don't try, you'll never receive. I want to say don't try. You know, people like, I'll just take a shot. I'm talking about trying crazy stuff. All right. So my mom immigrated from India. English was her second language back then. When she went to school, English was not the first language.

00:33:45:08 - 00:34:01:10
Neil
So when my mom came to the States as a teacher, she didn't have a teaching degree that was valid in the States, so she had to go to nighttime college we couldn't afford. We lived in long canals and we could not afford for daycare, but my dad had to work as well because you got to put food on the table.

00:34:01:12 - 00:34:23:01
Neil
And no joke, my mom pushed the stroller to school few miles a day each way there and back, then said, I'll teach for free if you keep my kids here while I teach to build up the hours, I can get my credits and they get my certification. She did it for six months. No pay. All right. Then one day when she started her own school, she did one of the craziest things ever.

00:34:23:03 - 00:34:41:21
Neil
And she's like this will work. And I'm like, what is it, mom? It's like, I'm going to go to all my competitor schools and tell them, hey, the state only allows you or the government only allows you to have so many kids based on the teacher ratio in class ratio. So you're full. Here's fliers I want you to give them to every single parent that comes in.

00:34:41:21 - 00:35:06:23
Neil
You're asking to put their kid into school when you don't have a spot. And she wasn't around to like 60 plus schools. Most of them just threw her fliers in the trash thinking she's crazy. A few of them center students. All of a sudden she went from making zero to over $100,000 a year, which is a lot of money, because she gave fliers to all her competitors and asked them to promote her school because they were full.

00:35:06:23 - 00:35:28:09
Neil
She didn't give them a commission, no affiliate deal, no money exchange. She just asked. And it worked. That was just crazy stuff that she would try. And she always taught me, if you don't ask, you'll never get. And I remember one day my dad took me to Nordstrom's because someone gave him a gift card. He would never naturally show off their expensive department store.

00:35:28:14 - 00:35:31:23
Neil
So we gave him a gift card. He's like, this blue.

00:35:31:23 - 00:35:32:21
Alison
Shirt is this same.

00:35:32:21 - 00:35:50:15
Neil
As this white shirt, same brand, but the white one is 50% off and the blue one is not. I want the blue one, but please give it to me at 50% off. And the lady is like, I can't do that. It's not on. So she's like, why not? You discount the other one. I want to speak to someone else.

00:35:50:17 - 00:35:53:04
Neil
They actually gave him 50% off. Then he.

00:35:53:04 - 00:35:53:23
Alison
Is they.

00:35:54:01 - 00:36:15:23
Neil
He uses gift card. But what my parents taught me is if you never ask, you'll never receipt. And they ask for the craziest stuff. And someone being in the corporate world, if you even work in the core folder, you're entrepreneur. It doesn't matter. You can ask and you'll be shocked and what you can receive. There is a guy named Rich Barton.

00:36:16:01 - 00:36:31:11
Neil
I don't know if you've ever heard his story. He created a company called Expedia. You guys know it's Expedia. Did you know he went to Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer and said, I want to create this company called Expedia. Give me a $100 million. I think it was like $100 million that he wanted. You know, what they did?

00:36:31:17 - 00:37:01:05
Neil
They did not give him $100 million. They thought, you can use a Microsoft name and our cloud will spin up, a separate company will raise it from other people, and we'll hook you up as well with equity and ownership. That is how he became rich. He convinced his boss. Technically, he asked his boss for a large sum of money or his boss's boss, and they said no, but they liked idea enough where they spun up a new company, took money from other people, and that's how Expedia was born.

00:37:01:06 - 00:37:22:18
Neil
The moral of the story is, most people would not ask their boss for $100,000,000 plus years ago, but he did. That $100 million was way more back then. Companies never raise that kind of money. In other words, if you don't ask, you'll never receive. It doesn't matter if you're an entrepreneur or you work for a corporation. If you have something that you truly believe in, fight for it.

00:37:22:20 - 00:37:42:02
Neil
Back up your data points with data and you know other people you know, agreeing with your signing off or backing you up and see how far you can go. And remember when you get to know a know, does it mean no? It just means not right now. So readjust your pitch and come back like, yeah, I know you said no, but I'm adjusting it.

00:37:42:06 - 00:37:54:23
Neil
And no just means not right now. And eventually people of that persistence, you may wear them down and get that. Yes.

00:37:55:01 - 00:38:21:15
Alison
Neil, thank you so much for a really great conversation, for a really great morning. It was a wonderful way to kick off CMA Marketing Week. I also want to say a huge thank you to everyone that's joined us in person and virtually across the country. Looking forward to seeing you at a lot of our events this week. We've got a great training session that's free for members this afternoon, and we've got a whole array of other in-person events, socials, professional development opportunities, and lots of ways for us to come together as a community.

00:38:21:21 - 00:38:29:17
Alison
But Neil, a huge thank you to you and friend P digital for kicking off our CMA marketing week and for a really great podcast conversation.

00:38:29:18 - 00:38:38:00
Neil
Thank you everyone.

00:38:38:02 - 00:38:50:16
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Where do you stand on Trump and the tariffs? CMA CEO Alison Simpson welcomes Gregory Jack, SVP of Public Affairs, Strategic Communication & Market Research, and Naumi Haque, SVP of Research – Market Strategy & Understanding, both from Ipsos. Their timely discussion highlights an Ipsos member survey quantifying Canadians' sentiments about today's economic and political climate. Learn how Canadians unite to defend the country's economy and sovereignty and discover how you can stand with your fellow Canadians.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:21
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:23 - 00:00:58:00
Alison
We are certainly living in interesting times with tariffs and the 51st state nonsense creating uncertainty, we're seeing Canadians come together to defend our economy and also our sovereignty. In today's episode, we are sharing new research that quantifies how Canadians are reacting to Trump, tariffs and the turmoil that they're both creating. The ongoing study by CMA member Ipsos is tracking Canadians' sentiment and how it's quickly evolving on many key measures, including buying Canadian and how Canadian consumers are balancing their desire to support local brands with concerns about rising costs and affordability.

00:00:58:01 - 00:01:24:21
Alison
Joining me today are Naumi Haque, Senior Vice President of Market Strategy and Understanding, and Greg Jack, Senior Vice President of Public Affairs, Strategic Communication Market Research, both from Ipsos. Naumi is an Insights Leader with over two decades of experience in the research and advisory industries across several great companies, including Google. In his current role, Naumi is managing customer research projects for companies in a variety of sectors including retail, cannabis and tech.

00:01:24:23 - 00:01:45:07
Alison
He was at the forefront of global research that tracked the impact of Covid 19 on citizens and consumers, and is now leading a tracking study on how Canadians are responding to Trump and tariffs. Greg leads the Ottawa Public Affairs practice for Ipsos. He's also a Boomerang member of their team, having first worked there as a VP in their Calgary office in 2019 to 2023.

00:01:45:08 - 00:02:06:05
Alison
Greg's held a variety of roles in the federal government and also worked for Suncor and the Government of Alberta early in his career. He brings extensive experience in both market research and helping brands and governments get their message out. Today, Greg, Naomi and I are digging into the research findings to discuss the impact that the economic and political uncertainty are having on Canadians.

00:02:06:07 - 00:02:27:02
Alison
We'll discuss intriguing generational differences and also how Canadian consumers' attitudes towards US-based companies that are operating in Canada are changing. We'll highlight the opportunities and challenges that the rise of Canadian patriotism and the shifting sentiment and marketplace can represent for marketers. Welcome, Greg and Naumi, it's a pleasure to have you both with us today.

00:02:27:04 - 00:02:27:21
Gregory
Thank you.

00:02:27:23 - 00:02:29:08
Naumi
Thanks for having us.

00:02:29:10 - 00:02:39:15
Alison
So Naumi, I'd love you to kick things off. How has the "Buy Canadian" sentiment evolved since the start of the US Canada trade tensions? And what implications does this have for marketers?

00:02:39:17 - 00:03:03:07
Naumi
For sure. I mean, it's been, it's been a crazy month. So there's definitely the "Buy Canadian sentiment", is going strong. There's actually, you know, we see two things happening, right? There's patriotic purchasing, so people trying to buy Canadian or avoid American. And there's another shift happening with consumers, which is that we see just general conservatism. People are pulling back a little bit on spending because of all the uncertainty that's happening around the tariffs and the impact on prices.

00:03:03:08 - 00:03:23:13
Naumi
So in terms of how it's evolving, we're definitely seeing the sentiment grow. So it's not just Buy Canadian, it's avoid American. And right now we're looking at the two thirds of Canadians that say they're making an effort to buy Canadian. And that's gone up from just over half of Canadians about a month ago. And on the boycotting American side, we're also seeing growth in that number.

00:03:23:14 - 00:03:46:07
Naumi
So it's 58% of Canadians, right now are saying they're avoiding American products. And that's up from 47% a month ago. And then there's also, you know, about a third of Canadians that are stopping traveling from the US. So there's just right now a lot of, I think, angst with Canadians in terms of the US. And then there's the other part that I mentioned, the sort of being a little bit more conservative.

00:03:46:09 - 00:04:16:18
Naumi
We see Canadians generally pulling back on spending. So about a third of them right now are telling us that in the past, two weeks, they've pulled back on spending or more tightly budgeted their money because of everything that's happening with tariffs and uncertainty. So it's definitely, you know, a strong sentiment amongst Canadians. It's growing. And I think the implication for marketers is there's there's obviously a risk if you're an American company, there's an opportunity if you're a Canadian company and can sort of communicate your Canadian credentials.

00:04:16:20 - 00:04:39:02
Naumi
And then there's also this focus on value. But to to capture some of those people that are pulling back on spending. But ultimately, the bottom line I think for marketers is that, you know, like I said, the last month had been crazy. It's been crazy for us as market researchers, but it's been crazy for consumers. And the most important thing to remember is that right now, all of those brand decisions that consumers are making, they're they're sort of up in the air, right.

00:04:39:03 - 00:04:59:20
Naumi
Like we we as marketers, we spend a lot of time thinking about, oh, how do we how do we break through? Right. How do we get our message to resonate with Canadians? And, you know, in some categories we see that it's really tough to break through. Right. Like in CPG categories, it can be 60, 70% of people are on autopilot. Well, right now that inertia around brands is broken.

00:05:00:00 - 00:05:07:03
Naumi
And so it's an opportunity. And I mean, we're expecting to be very busy as market researchers in the next little bit. Let's put it that way.

00:05:07:05 - 00:05:18:04
Alison
It's amazing. And it's moving at such warp speed. It's incredible. I'd love to hear if you're seeing any regional differences, because typically in Canada we would see regional differences. But I don't know that that's applying in the situation.

00:05:18:06 - 00:05:37:09
Naumi
I mean, the sentiment is across the country, but we definitely do see regional differences. What's interesting is, you know, even in places where do you think, oh, well, you know, them a little bit holding back like in Quebec. Right. It's even people in Quebec now rallying around Canada and sort of that national pride. So it really is coast to coast.

00:05:37:11 - 00:05:54:06
Gregory
You know, I think Naumi really hit the nail on the head in. What we're seeing in Quebec is fascinating because all of a sudden, Québecers are rallying around the Canadian flag, and we are seeing that in some of the voting intentions during the federal election in our polls. And we're also seeing it anecdotally in stories that you see in the media and in our numbers.

00:05:54:08 - 00:06:06:02
Gregory
The real difference, as we're going to discuss, I think, is not regional but generational. But Canadians from coast to coast have really signed up to this Buy Canadian, Avoid American movement that we're seeing emerging.

00:06:06:04 - 00:06:18:14
Alison
That's a great shout out, Greg, and I'd love you to drill down on that and really help our listeners understand the generational differences that we are seeing based on the current economic situation and how this is also impacting marketing strategies.

00:06:18:16 - 00:06:40:01
Gregory
Right. And Naomi and I wrote a while ago paper called "Nuanced Nationalism", and the paper talked about how the nationalist movement or the Buy Canadian, Avoid American movement has significant generational differences. And what we're finding is that it's the Baby Boomers who are leading the charge here. Younger Canadians are more likely to put price over patriotism. Now, that's not to say that younger Canadians aren't behind this.

00:06:40:01 - 00:06:58:15
Gregory
They are. And these numbers are, are still showing majorities in most groups. All age groups, in fact, have been saying that they've been changing their behaviour and they've been paying attention. But there are some generational differences. Right now, for example, 66% of Baby Boomers say that we can never again trust the Americans the same way. And that's just 45% of Gen Z.

00:06:58:17 - 00:07:15:00
Gregory
We see 80% of Boomers saying that despite the current dispute with the U.S. is going to bring Canadians together, which we've been saying it's been doing, j  ust 63% of Gen Z are saying that. And so these are these are, you know, big differences that do suggest there's there's some nuanced nationalism happening. And we see this in purchasing, too.

00:07:15:01 - 00:07:45:19
Gregory
While 7 in 10 Canadians say that we should stand up to Trump with retaliatory tariffs, even if that means Canadians have to pay more, that number goes up to eight in ten among Boomers, and it's just five in ten among Gen Z. So Naumi alluded earlier to how Canadians are pulling back their spending. And really the group that is most affected by this, who may have the most to lose and not be able to afford to buy something that's more expensive or change their travel plans, are the younger group and the Boomers, on the other hand, who have and continue to have a lot of wealth in Canada are the ones

00:07:45:19 - 00:07:56:07
Gregory
who are able to put their money where their mouth is and change their behaviour to send a signal to the Americans, and also to potentially, affect the American economy and goods.

00:07:56:08 - 00:08:10:19
Alison
Greg, in addition to the financial reality for younger Canadians, are you seeing other contributing factors to why they're not as supportive of Buy Canadian or as against, what's going on from an American perspective?

00:08:10:21 - 00:08:31:21
Gregory
Yeah, I think that some of the, the attachment to Canada and the, the unity question comes into play here. We see lower attachment among Gen Z'ers to Canada. And there's a variety of reasons that could be behind that. They're more likely to be new Canadians. And so they don't have the shared history. They haven't necessarily been through the ups and downs of the markets and Canada-U.S. relations that the Baby Boomers remember.

00:08:31:23 - 00:09:02:11
Gregory
And, you know, you think back to the 70s and the 80s and how all of that might have changed. And of course, Baby Boomers, as I pointed out, have really benefited from the Old World Order, the old Canada that we've all enjoyed. And so for them, they just want to preserve the status quo. For younger Canadians, they feel that the status quo is broken and they want to rebuild the institutions that they don't feel have been working for them as coming up to now and, and find that this might be an opportunity to do that, or at the very least, they don't have the same level of attachment to Canada that their older parents and

00:09:02:11 - 00:09:03:20
Gregory
grandparents might have.

00:09:03:22 - 00:09:27:03
Naumi
And I can add to that, too. I think there's also a lot of attachment with young people to America, American brands, they, you know, they've grown up consuming American media, American social media, and a lot of the brands that are present in Canada right now are American brands. And so they've grown up with that. So there's also that sort of like Greg was saying, less of an attachment to Canada, maybe, but, you know, for some of them, more of an attachment to, to the U.S. as well.

00:09:27:05 - 00:09:40:17
Alison
And building on that, with the rise of TikTok and brands outside of North America, are we seeing younger Canadians with a more global perspective, or is it still gravitating more towards the U.S. than other countries?

00:09:40:18 - 00:09:58:22
Naumi
It's a it's an interesting question. We did some generational research last year, and one of the hypotheses that we had that we wanted to test was, Gen Z are potentially the first truly global generation, because they've had access to, like you said, all the social media. And so are they the first generation that globally, you know, has a shared worldview?

00:09:59:02 - 00:10:17:19
Naumi
And so there is some evidence to that, it's really tough to, to, to sort of measure that we you know, we did do a study in about 15 different countries to try to get at it and see, you know, what are the commonalities that they have. And it's it's interesting, like a lot of the the differences that you'd expect it to be attributed to age were not.

00:10:17:19 - 00:10:41:07
Naumi
And young people are sort of, you know, it really depends if you're left or right or sort of, where where you come from also plays a little bit of a difference. The one thing that we saw that they were truly sort of connected on was a shared sentiment and frustration, which is interesting. It's, you know, it's they are the truly first global generation in that they are all feeling that maybe they're worse off than previous generations.

00:10:41:07 - 00:10:57:12
Naumi
They're all feeling a little bit more frustrated with the world right now. If you look at some of the emotions that they project, they're all, you know, a little bit more likely to be, to be frustrated, to be disengaged. And so there's there is that that we see happening. I don't know if it's as a result of social media.

00:10:57:13 - 00:11:02:18
Naumi
There's still sort of a lot of open questions there. Definitely a hypothesis that we're testing. And I think there is some truth to it.

00:11:03:00 - 00:11:20:16
Gregory
And I just want to add to that, Naumi and I and some of our colleagues last week did a webinar called "From the Pandemic to the Present", and we looked at some of these measures through the lens of generation and attachment. One of the most interesting questions that we talked about in that webinar was where people see their chances of success coming from.

00:11:20:18 - 00:11:40:07
Gregory
We offered them an option. You know, people's chances of success and their country depend mostly on their own merit or efforts, versus people's chances of success in their country depend mostly on factors beyond their control. And this was a global question we asked of 22,000 people online. When you look at Canada, you see a really, really clear picture.

00:11:40:08 - 00:12:03:12
Gregory
56% of Boomers said it's due to merit and effort, and only 18% said factors beyond their control. But by the time you get down to Gen Z, those numbers are tied. 31% of Gen Z say that it's due to merit and 30% say it's factors beyond their control. And so we have seen globally some of this difficulty for Generation Z to get a start in life and take advantage of the institutions that their parents and grandparents had.

00:12:03:14 - 00:12:22:12
Gregory
But I think that our research does show that that sentiment is stronger in Canada in some ways than it is in other places. And, you know, going back to what I was saying earlier, part of that is driven by cost, of cost of living and not having the means. But part of it, I think, too, is, as you point out, as Naumi says, based on how different their world experiences from other generations.

00:12:22:14 - 00:12:34:06
Alison
That's very fascinating. Thank you both for sharing more on that. And then, Naumi, I'd love to hear from you how Canadian consumers are balancing their desire to support local brands with concerns about rising costs and affordability.

00:12:34:08 - 00:12:51:10
Naumi
Yeah, and we sort of kicked the conversation off with that, right? There's the desire to buy Canadian and sort of patriotic purchasing. And then there's the you know, at the same time, it's it costs money. And so we're having to pullback right now. What we're seeing is that, Canadians are pissed and they're they're willing to absorb some pain.

00:12:51:12 - 00:13:22:04
Naumi
So you know, it started off that discussion with with tariffs. And and Trump is a bit of an inconvenience. You know sort of in the news. And then it became more of an insult. And I think, you know, all the 51st state rhetoric was probably a tactical mistake on Trump's part. It ignited a lot of emotion in Canada, to the point where now, we have two thirds of Canadians that are saying we should retaliate against Trump, even if it means Canadians have to pay more for things because they want to send a message, and I don't know that that's the response Americans were expecting from Canadians.

00:13:22:04 - 00:13:43:09
Naumi
That we would stand up for ourselves so much. But we're definitely seeing that right now. We're also willing, as Canadians to spend to support Canada, and even more so than than the Americans are right now. So 74% of Canadians say they had paid more for Canadian-made products in the past week. That was 66% among Americans that said that they paid more to buy American-made goods,

00:13:43:11 - 00:14:05:21
Naumi
as a result of, everything that's happening right now. So, you know, south of the border, we do see shifts in purchasing, but they're much more driven by sort of financial concerns, people being more conservative. But up here in Canada, it's definitely more driven by patriotism, at least for now. So I think we'll, we'll see how long that lasts or how long we can afford our morals.

00:14:05:23 - 00:14:11:22
Naumi
But right now, it seems like Canadians are willing to, to suffer a little bit to buy Canadian and to boycott the U.S.

00:14:12:00 - 00:14:25:13
Alison
There are some categories where it can be more challenging to find Canadian brands and products. So is that driving the, well, if I can't find it in Canada, then as long as it's anywhere but the U.S., I feel that I'm fighting back.

00:14:25:15 - 00:14:47:01
Gregory
Yeah, we're definitely seeing that. There's there's a mixture of avoid American and buy Canadian. You can't obviously buy certain products in Canada. So we're trying to find ways to to buy things like lemons from South Africa, is something that I saw in the grocery store the other day. And, you know, anecdotally, we needed some strawberries a couple of weeks ago, and there was American strawberries for $2.99.

00:14:47:01 - 00:15:09:00
Gregory
And then there were, I think Canadian strawberries were $5.99 or something? And and we bought the Canadian strawberries because we were willing to, you know, put a little bit of money behind that. I think that's definitely something that's happening. But people are looking for that Canadian claim. They want to buy Canadian products where they can. And it's not always clear what a Canadian product is, how these things are measured.

00:15:09:02 - 00:15:28:00
Gregory
The most impactful one is the Made in Canada label. Half of Canadians say that that label satisfies their desire to buy Canadian products. In contrast, Product of Canada is slightly lower, but we know from the CFIA requirements that the requirements for Product of Canada are actually much stronger. So 98% of the ingredients have to be Canadian.

00:15:28:01 - 00:15:46:11
Gregory
The threshold for Made in Canada is quite a bit lower. 51% of the total cost must occur in Canada, and the last transformation must occur in Canada. So that's complex. I think Canadians are becoming more aware of what these labels are meaning. I don't know about you, but when I walk through the grocery store, there's always people holding a package up and staring at the small print.

00:15:46:13 - 00:16:03:17
Gregory
I would imagine that companies will start making it more prominent where their products come from if this continues. And probably not just here, I would say that this is probably going to start to happen in other places as well. But there's a lot of confusion right now about the meaning of those terms, and there's some fear that some retailers might be taking advantage of this "Buy Canadian."

00:16:03:22 - 00:16:22:05
Gregory
According to some news reports we've seen in publications like the Globe and Mail. So I think the Globe called it "maple washing", which is something we used in our survey as well. I don't think we thought of it, but it seems to be a pretty widespread claim. And we found that half of Canadians would stop buying from a company altogether if they found that it was exaggerating how Canadian these products are.

00:16:22:05 - 00:16:41:18
Gregory
So, one thing that doesn't resonate is "packaged in Canada." Only 6% say that that satisfies their demand to buy a Canadian product, and only 15% say they would willingly pay more for a product that is made in the USA but packaged in Canada. So this is one way that I think retailers and producers are trying to get that Canadian angle in there and say it's packaged here.

00:16:42:00 - 00:17:03:14
Gregory
That doesn't seem to be as strong a claim as some of the others. And of course, the best option that the people support the most is to buy a Canadian product made in Canada by a Canadian-owned company. 73% said they would pay more for a product that meets that description. And so I think that there's a lot of nuance in the Buy Canadian Avoid American, just like there's a bunch of generational nuance that we've alluded to.

00:17:03:16 - 00:17:28:11
Naumi
Yeah. I mean, and it's evolving a little bit, right, too? So I think there's more nuanced understanding now. I think we started out with a bit more of like, you know, screw everything American kind of mentality because we were feeling insulted, like I said before. But, you know, Canadians want to support Canadians and Canadian jobs. So there's the question of, you know, if a company is American-owned, but they make their products in Canada, is it okay to support them? Right now

00:17:28:11 - 00:17:51:23
Naumi
that's close to 50% of Canadians that agree with that. That was four in ten about a month ago. So, you know, there's that shift of yeah, you know, it's, it's okay if it's an American Company. They're here. They're supporting Canadian jobs or it's a Canadian franchise. They're supporting the Canadian community. So there's, there's definitely that as well. And then you mentioned retailers, Greg, I think definitely we're seeing people that are willing to boycott retailers.

00:17:51:23 - 00:18:11:05
Naumi
But I think they get a bit more of a pass. Right. So we said a quarter of Canadians are avoiding American retailers. That's much lower than the percent that are avoiding American products, which is closer to six in ten. So, like Costco is a good example. I mean, I was I was shopping at Costco recently and, you know, it is an American retailer, but we were still there trying to buy Canadian.

00:18:11:05 - 00:18:24:11
Naumi
And I would say about 80% of the items that we left with that they were in our cart, you know, were Canadian products. So there is still an option of, yeah, I can I can support an American retailer, but I can, but I can buy Canadian as well.

00:18:24:13 - 00:18:46:14
Alison
And I understand that Costco was also making it easier, so when you walk in Costco, they're profiling the Canadian brands and products as well. And then Greg, going back to your point, it's such an important education and difference between Product of Canada, Made in Canada. The CMA in February issued an article to help marketers understand, because any that fall victim to "maple washing",

00:18:46:14 - 00:18:57:14
Alison
there's such a loss of trust in customers. And your research data proves that when Canadians figure out that "maple washing" is happening, it's not just a short term pain for the brand and business, it will have longer term implications.

00:18:57:16 - 00:19:10:17
Gregory
Yeah, even if they do it accidentally, if they're not meaning to mislead people, but people feel misled, that alone will will have consequences and then if they are deliberately misleading, I would wager that it's going to be even more severe of a reaction.

00:19:10:19 - 00:19:29:11
Naumi
I think on the flip side of the "maple washing", though, for, for, you know, for the the American brands, that may be listening in and, you know, the marketers that are supporting American brands, there is some goodwill to be gained about talking about, you know, supporting Canadian jobs and supporting the local community and things like that as well, which, you know, not to say just because you're an American brand, you shouldn't be talking about that.

00:19:29:11 - 00:19:39:03
Naumi
You can still talk about it, you know, even if you're not Made in Canada or 100% Product of Canada. Well, we support the Canadian community, we support Canadian jobs. And that that's still going to resonate.

00:19:39:05 - 00:20:04:16
Alison
It speaks to the complexity of the issue, because there are so many Canadian businesses that have significant holdings in Canada, significant employee places in Canada, and are actively contributing to our economy. So as the tariffs and Trump and chaos continue, figuring out how Canadians' views are evolving around both Canadian brands and businesses, but also American brands and businesses that are in our country and participating in our economy

00:20:04:16 - 00:20:20:16
Alison
is going to be fascinating to see how Canadians feelings change and evolve. And I know it's early days, but in the research so far, are you  seeing any challenges or opportunities for those American companies that have Canadian employee bases and are contributing to the economy?

00:20:20:18 - 00:20:42:05
Naumi
I mean, I think there's a lot of uncertainty still, I think it's maybe still a little bit early to say how Canadians are going to net out. You know, perhaps as we start to see more a sort of financial pain behind it, they're going to become more critical. But I think right now there is for sure an opportunity, like I was saying, you know, as an American company, you can still be supporting Canadian jobs.

00:20:42:05 - 00:20:58:06
Naumi
I know some of the retailers that we work with talk about that the American companies that are, you know, in the QSR space or restaurant space, there is, you know, often Canadian franchisees, even though the brand is American, you know, even for like you're saying, those American companies, there's there's an opportunity here as well.

00:20:58:08 - 00:21:10:04
Alison
And we touched on this a bit earlier, Naumi, but I'd love to you to elaborate more on the trends that you're seeing in consumers' willingness to pay more for Canadian products, and are you seeing variances across different product groups?

00:21:10:06 - 00:21:33:04
Naumi
For sure. Category makes a huge difference. So food is most important. It's something you buy all the time. And it's also easy to identify, right? It's right on there. Where's the product from? Where is it grown? So food's most important. And some, you know, for for some foods there there aren't good Canadian options. But you know there's an anecdotal story about a customer in  grocery store looking for Canadian oranges.

00:21:33:04 - 00:21:55:04
Naumi
Right? It's like, we don't have that, but where's the next best place I can get oranges? So in food, it's definitely important. But it may also be not just buy Canadian but don't buy American. So look for those alternatives, you know, South America, Europe wherever. And other important categories - financial services. So Trump started talking about Canada opening up to more U.S. financial services as one of the requirements.

00:21:55:06 - 00:22:18:04
Naumi
That's not really something Canadians want right now. There's a strong sense of, you know, I want my financial services to be provided by Canadian institutions. So that's another important one. T ravel. There's been a lot of press coverage on travel. Canadians don't really want to go to the U.S. right now. So we did some research around travel destinations. You know, back in January, among Canadians that were planning leisure trips

00:22:18:04 - 00:22:36:12
Naumi
in the next few months, 47% were planning to head to the U.S. About half of Canadians in any given time that are planning leisure trips are going to the States. In March, that number cratered. It was like down to 29%, the lowest it's been since we've been tracking it. So, you know, people are choosing to go elsewhere. They're going to Europe, they're taking their money to other places.

00:22:36:12 - 00:22:55:02
Naumi
The ones that people seem to care less about are things like electronics. A lot of the brands aren't Canadian or American, you know, the Asian brands for a lot of electronics. So that doesn't tend to be much of an issue. Streaming services. You may be surprised to know, people, no one wants to give up their their Netflix or their Disney Plus.

00:22:55:04 - 00:23:16:23
Naumi
So we're seeing sort of a stronghold on on streaming services. And then to some extent personal care and, you know, over-the-counter medications, things like that, that things you get in the drugstore, are a bit more protected from Canadian sentiment right now. We don't see that same level of commitment to buying Canadian or avoiding American. And I think it just comes down to, you know, it's, it's things that are related,

00:23:17:01 - 00:23:42:17
Naumi
if you're putting it in your body, it's related to your health and wellness, you're not going to sort of make decisions on that based on patriotism. So definitely differences by categories. The one that I think we'll we'll have to wait and see on, that we're watching continue to track is large purchases. You know, so things like cars that they don't people don't buy as often, or you know, we hear anecdotally about Canadian snowbirds selling their U.S. properties.

00:23:42:17 - 00:23:56:22
Naumi
I mean, those are things that take a lot longer, or cars aren't thought as frequently, so we don't have data on that right now. So we'll see what, sort of happens with those larger purchases. But my sense is that, you know, these for now, we're not seeing a huge shift there.

00:23:57:00 - 00:24:22:06
Alison
The automotive is an interesting one, because I read another report where the last quarter we just finished, automotive in Canada actually saw a spike. And the thinking is that's because people that were thinking of buying were either delaying their decision for a year or accelerated it before the impact of the tariffs hit. And then Greg, looking ahead, how do you foresee the current Buy Canadian trend evolving and what should marketers be preparing for in the coming months or years.

00:24:22:06 - 00:24:28:07
Alison
And I know a years is probably too long a horizon at this stage in the game. So why don't we focus it more at once?

00:24:28:09 - 00:24:43:08
Gregory
Sure. I mean, we advised our clients to look at this sort of in threes; the next three weeks, the next three months, and the next three years. And obviously, the further you get to the future, the harder it is to say. Right now, the question that we've been asking ourselves at Ipsos and we've been throwing this term around, is whether this is a moment or a movement.

00:24:43:13 - 00:25:00:05
Gregory
Are people going to abandon this buy Canadian, avoid American, if we finally either get used to things or if we reach a settlement with the U.S. of some sort, or if people made the choice for for the longer term, that they're simply not going to go back to some of these products, either because they found a pretty good substitute

00:25:00:05 - 00:25:18:11
Gregory
they get used to, or because they're, they're just, as Naumi said, pissed, and are unlikely to to let that anger go very quickly. So we don't yet know that. But but, where I'm honouring that question, I think that right now we've seen a lot of talk as well about strengthening ties to Europe. Our poll did show that I think 7 in 10 Canadians think we should do that.

00:25:18:13 - 00:25:37:14
Gregory
And right now it's very two-sided. It's Trump against the world. Especially since he announced the the reciprocal tariffs, there has been worldwide reaction to that. And so it's almost like we kind of got ahead of it a little bit. And now the rest of the world is going to catch up. 7 in 10 Canadians say that our future is better served by aligning with like-minded countries in Europe rather than the U.S.

00:25:37:16 - 00:26:00:05
Gregory
And we're going to keep testing in the future as we continue this research to see whether this is going to kind of persist. So we've reached a new phase in the debate, but it's not going to abate quickly. And we expect these threats to to persist at least until the midterms, because I think everybody would not be surprised if coming up to the U.S. midterms, that the Republicans and the President are looking for ways to get votes and stir up reaction.

00:26:00:07 - 00:26:24:01
Gregory
They could start targeting Canada or other countries again with new accusations about something that didn't work over the last year and a half that was supposed to. And so that's why they have to to then come after Canada or other countries again. So I think that we can expect to see this issue persist for the medium-term, even if we start negotiating a new agreement with the Americans, as we will have to do, because the free trade agreement is up for renewal.

00:26:24:03 - 00:26:27:06
Gregory
So that's what's going to inform, I think, the next little while.

00:26:27:07 - 00:26:44:04
Naumi
You know, this isn't over soon. This is going to last for a while. My my message for marketers, though, would be don't wait, right. You know, months or years, hopefully not years or months, you know from now, consumers will have made their brand decision. They'll be used to buying those, you know Canadian strawberries that you were talking about, right? 

00:26:44:04 - 00:27:12:12
Naumi
Like there the moment of disruption will be over. And I think the biggest message again is, you know, sort of make your case to Canadians now while they're reevaluating their decisions. It's, it's one lesson from the pandemic, it was a window of opportunity where, you know, consumers were sort of uncertain and it was an opportunity for brands. There's an interesting metric that we used to track during the pandemic is, you know, do you trust brands or the government more in terms of that source of information?

00:27:12:12 - 00:27:30:05
Naumi
And it was like 4 in 10 Canadians at the time said that they trust brands more than the government for,  as a source of information during the pandemic. So, you know, it's that same type of mentality right now. There's a lot of uncertainty. You know, like you said, there's there's an election. So people aren't even really sure what to think of the government.

00:27:30:08 - 00:27:49:09
Naumi
It's a moment for for brands to, to sort of step in and provide reassurance, help consumers make decisions. Again, sort of gauging it by how we operate as a research company. You know, there was a brief moment of pause in 2020 when the pandemic happened. Everyone was trying to figure out, you know, what the heck's going on, what's going to happen?

00:27:49:09 - 00:28:04:15
Naumi
And sort of paused. And we're seeing that we're in that moment, I think, during tariffs and and everyone's just sort of paused. We don't know what's going to happen, is it? Are we going to go in recession? We don't know. But by 2021 I know my teams anyways were crazy busy. Everyone wanted to know how consumer behaviour is shifting.

00:28:04:15 - 00:28:20:10
Naumi
What should they do? You know, how important is health and wellness? All these things. And I think we're going to see the same pattern now, right? There's a bit of a pause right now, but I'm expecting, you know, to, to be fairly inundated with questions around, okay, well, what should we do? I mean, we're already seeing it, right?

00:28:20:10 - 00:28:35:11
Naumi
We're getting a lot of attention obviously, around the topic, but I think as companies are thinking about, okay, well actually now what do I have to do with my brands? What does our portfolio look like? How am I going to communicate it? What's the messaging? What's the next creative? I think we're going to, we're going to see a lot of shifts.

00:28:35:13 - 00:28:54:00
Alison
And given that the pandemic learning is still relatively fresh for all of us, I don't think there will be the same length of pause, because we've seen that action and first-mover advantage when it's done well, can provide some pretty significant benefits. Great conversation. Before I let you go on with your busy days, I want to do a bit of a pivot.

00:28:54:02 - 00:29:10:20
Alison
You both have great long standing careers in research, and I know our listeners would absolutely benefit from learning from your journey and be very curious to learn from your journey. So to close off today's discussion, I would love you each to share the top advice that you would give to our listeners who aspire to follow in your leadership footsteps.

00:29:10:22 - 00:29:12:15
Alison
And Greg, why don't you kick us off?

00:29:12:17 - 00:29:31:16
Gregory
Sure. That's a great question. And, you know, I like to think that I've had a mix of good fortune and, and hard work in my career. One of the things that I would tell somebody who's starting their career out or even starting a new position, is put your hand up. Right? There, there is times when we have very busy periods, this being one of them, and this is a great project.

00:29:31:22 - 00:29:54:13
Gregory
We've had a lot of people at Ipsos who have wanted to work on it, but it's the ones who put their hand up and really gone in with both feet that are going to benefit from that experience. They're going to benefit from, getting to know other people across the company. This was a bit unique for Ipsos because Naumi and I do such different things, but our teams are now working together on on a common cause, and they've gotten to know some of their colleagues as well by, by doing that, by putting their hand up.

00:29:54:13 - 00:30:03:23
Gregory
So if I had one piece of advice, it would be when, when, you know, crisis like this strikes or when there's an opportunity, I volunteer to be involved, because that's how you learn.

00:30:04:01 - 00:30:21:21
Naumi
That's a good one. I 100% agree. I would say another one is, you know, don't be afraid to be a little bit provocative to to tell the story. You know, the title of our the project is "Trump, Tariffs and Turmoil," which is a little bit, you know, more provocative than what you might expect from a, from a research company.

00:30:22:02 - 00:30:38:04
Naumi
But it all comes down to the storytelling, right? A lot of researchers are good with data, are good at numbers, but you've got to convert that into a story to grab people's attention. We live in an attention economy. And and you know, headlines and and the story and the narrative that you're able to tell, are important.

00:30:38:04 - 00:30:41:03
Naumi
And I think that's served me well, certainly in my career.

00:30:41:05 - 00:31:01:05
Alison
Our listeners will be very well-served to listen to both of those pieces of advice. So thank you very much. And Naumi and Greg, I really appreciate the conversation. It couldn't be more timely. And I love that Ipsos is going to be tracking this on an ongoing basis so we can see having you back down the road and see how things are evolving, and then also the nuanced, nationalism report that you mentioned.

00:31:01:07 - 00:31:09:06
Alison
What we'll do is provide a link to that in our notes as well. I know that will be of interest to our listeners, too. So thank you both. I really appreciate our time together today.

00:31:09:12 - 00:31:10:22
Naumi
Thanks so much for having us.

00:31:10:23 - 00:31:12:21
Gregory
Thank you very much.

00:31:12:23 - 00:31:25:12
Presenter
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