CMA Connect – Details, episodes & analysis

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with two members of the CMA's Not-For-Profit Council, Allen Davidov, Senior Vice President, Sales Practice & Marketing Leader, Environics Analytics and Kelly Hardy, Vice President, Marketing & Communications, YMCA Canada. They explore the unique opportunities and challenges of leveraging AI in non-profit marketing, discuss strategies for preparing for the AI-driven future, and share valuable advice for marketers looking to embrace this transformative technology.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:08
Announcer
Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, KMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:10 - 00:00:46:01
Alison 
In today's episode, we're diving into the world of charities and not for profit organizations to discuss how they can leverage the transformative potential of generative AI as the marketing landscape continues to rapidly evolve. Charities and not for profits, can often find themselves facing some pretty unique challenges when it comes to adopting cutting edge technologies like Gen I. With limited resources and a focus on mission driven work.

00:00:46:03 - 00:01:08:07
Alison 
How can these organizations harness the power of AI to amplify their impact and drive success? To help us navigate this meaty topic, I'm joined by two members of the CMAs not for profit council, Kelly Harding, as the vice president, marketing communications for YMCA Canada, and Allen Davidoff as senior vice president, sales practice and marketing leader, and Varonis analytics.

00:01:08:09 - 00:01:40:14
Alison 
Both Kelly and Allen bring deep marketing and leadership expertise. They've also held senior roles in nonprofits, and their first hand experience makes them perfectly suited to discuss how charities and not for profits can explore and implement new technologies like not. They'll share some of the ways they're doing this, along with some valuable lessons learned throughout our conversation. Today, we'll explore the various ways in which Gen AI can help nonprofits scale their marketing efforts everything from automating mundane tasks to enhancing content creation and volunteer work.

00:01:40:16 - 00:01:51:16
Alison 
We'll also discuss the importance of upskilling teams, developing AI policies, and addressing concerns around authenticity and transparency. Welcome, Kelly and Allen. It's really great to have you both here today.

00:01:51:18 - 00:01:52:21
Allen
Thank you for having me.

00:01:52:22 - 00:01:53:21
Kelly
Thank you.

00:01:53:23 - 00:02:13:14
Alison 
Now, I'd like to kick things off with the question. And, Kelly, I'll get you to take the lead on this one. As marketers with experience and not for profits. What role do you see Gen AI playing now? What have been your early experiences in leveraging it? I'd also like to hear what advice you would give to those who might be a little bit reluctant to start using AI.

00:02:13:16 - 00:02:45:14
Kelly
So I think the generative AI is going to have a monumental shift on the marketing and communications function in an organization, as well as us as marketers ourselves. Just how quickly this technology has developed and what it's capable of now. I think particularly in charities and nonprofits, you're really going to be able to extend the capacity of your teams in a way that our resources probably would never allow us to, unless you have expertise right at your fingertips.

00:02:45:16 - 00:03:05:16
Kelly
It can be a copywriter. It can be a brainstorm or a planner. It can fulfill almost or many of the roles that a creative agency might have just to get you started. It's not at the point where it's replacing any human jobs right now, but it's really going to, I think, enhance and be a companion to us as marketers.

00:03:05:18 - 00:03:30:13
Kelly
As you start to dive into the world because it's new and it's also you're adding your information into these large language models is really important to understand your organizational policies around the use of AI and protecting your private, confidential, proprietary business information. I like to use AI, as I said, as my editor. So sometimes my sentence structure clarity isn't there.

00:03:30:14 - 00:04:07:03
Kelly
So I still write stuff. Well, say can you just review this for grammar, clarity, sentence structure or make this shorter? I hadn't done anything in generative AI before December, and then I took a course through the Canadian Marketing Association that was led by Karla Congson. That really demystified what generative AI is about. So I think that as many of us are going to be at the early stages of AI, I'd encourage a great place to start is just take a course that helps you understand what it is, the role of it, the limitations, the cautions and the Canadian Marketing Association offer some great courses on that as well.

00:04:07:03 - 00:04:36:14
Kelly
So ones like AI for nonprofits and Hands on Efficiency and Impact training, that's led by Emily Baillie, and that's suited for nonprofit professionals of all levels of experience who are looking to expand their skill set and gain insight into how I can be used in nonprofit marketing. Karla, who I mentioned is the CEO and founder of Open Gravity, has been a great resource for me, and she worked with the CMA, available On Demand ten video based module on generative AI for marketers.

00:04:36:14 - 00:04:57:00
Kelly
So that's a really great course because it's not just about generative AI, but how you can leverage it in your role as a marketer. They also have AI and the Future of Work in marketing and executive overview, which is also led by Karla. And that's tailored more for executive marketers to really understand the complexities and opportunities for AI driven marketing.

00:04:57:02 - 00:05:19:02
Kelly
And you can also engage with Unlock the Power of AI and how I can make you a better marketer. That's left by Dave Burnett and that's tailored for marketing for practitioners with 2 to 5 years of experience looking to expand their skill set and embrace the future of AI enhanced marketing. So I think really the key message is this is going to be a skill upgrade that all of us is going to have to make.

00:05:19:04 - 00:05:31:18
Kelly
whether or not you like the idea of AI is going to become part of what we do now. If you haven't sort learned the time is now and the CMA offers great resources to do that.

00:05:31:20 - 00:05:51:12
Alison 
Kelly, thanks so much. It's really great for me to hear that the training through the CMA that you took was a key part of your journey, and I really appreciate the shadow. I also know that our listeners are going to definitely find a compelling the idea of gen AI helping you scale you and your team so you can be even more productive and manage very complex and workloads.

00:05:51:12 - 00:06:00:03
Alison 
And the ability to multitask with fewer hours in a week is going to be a compelling benefit for all of us. And I'd love to turn it over to you to answer the question as well.

00:06:00:05 - 00:06:25:06
Allen
Thank you. And when I look at I just see it as a marketer, I see that as another tool in my toolbox. So looking at from from what my organization is trying to do or trying to achieve, it's looking at what are the different tools at my disposal. And we live in this great age where we have so much rich data and great technology that allows us to actually do things on our own, sometimes without overspending in a lot of different areas.

00:06:25:06 - 00:06:58:08
Allen
I kind of look at it as an opportunity to look at the goals that my team has and what I'm trying to achieve, whether it's a campaign, whether it's creative, whether it's summarizing things, putting out more content and seeing where it can kind of help. So I know Kelly spoke to some of the mundane tasks, but looking at and evaluating your own campaigns and looking at the different videos you've put together, there's great uses of AI just to summarize things for you, to help you just bring things down and allow you to really expedite some tasks really quickly to get things moving.

00:06:58:10 - 00:07:23:04
Allen
So I see there's great uses of it. No differently than, you know, obviously shameless plug from the data analytics side. It's a great tool on my toolbox that any marketer can have. And look at how you build your own personas and connect with them. AI in the same fashion gives you opportunities to look at how do you upskill and how do you also extend sort of the use or expansion of your team and the volunteers that you use?

00:07:23:06 - 00:07:43:15
Allen
So I think AI's definitely an opportunity, but I would ask everyone to kind of start, I think Kelly spoke about some great CMA courses and great resources, but just look at it from the perspective of what am I trying to accomplish? And what can I help me? So getting started and kind of dig into some of that is kind of starting from that standpoint.

00:07:43:17 - 00:08:07:08
Alison 
For anyone that is worried about AI replacing their jobs, it's certainly not going to do that. And when we were talking earlier, we all talked about it's not about gen AI replacing our jobs. It's about marketers who are digging in and experimenting and learning and getting upskilled in joining AI that ultimately will replace our jobs. If we decide to, that we can opt out of this new technology.

00:08:07:13 - 00:08:25:16
Alison 
And you've both given so many benefits of why we should be open to experimenting and exploring, and that can really help remove some of the mundane tasks that are part of anyone's job, make us more scalable and also help stress test some of our thinking and play the important role of editors. So really great examples to kick off the session.

00:08:25:18 - 00:08:42:06
Alison 
Now, with the not for profit and charitable experience that you both bring to the table, I'd love to hear a bit about the unique opportunities that you see for not for profits and charities to leverage. Gen. AI, particularly when they often have smaller budgets and smaller teams.

00:08:42:08 - 00:09:03:09
Kelly
I think that, as we've discussed, AI can be a series of AI powered expertise and experts at your fingertips. So and I think a lot of times, and especially charities where you have limited resources, you don't have all the people in your team that, you know, bigger corporations may have. And I think even bigger corporations never have all the skills and expertise they want.

00:09:03:11 - 00:09:28:10
Kelly
So generative AI is going to give us opportunities to bring those skills in-house, at a cost that would never be attainable if you actually had to hire each of those or outsource consultants to help you with that. I think that what you'll have to do is figure out what type of expertise you want and how to work with, you know, the AI model that you're going to work with to leverage that properly.

00:09:28:10 - 00:09:52:10
Kelly
But right now it can help with copywriting. It can help with data analysis. So if, you know, sometimes we'll just do surveys to try to understand how people are thinking about things or reacting to things. The quickness, which means they can analyze verbatim comments. And we know how expensive quality surveys can be because of that human effort required to analyze the verbatim comments.

00:09:52:10 - 00:10:11:22
Kelly
Well, now that's accessible to most of us to be able to do that. So I think that's what's really exciting is not about especially at the YMCA right now. It's not about replacing their jobs, but helping us. And it's not about making us work. Longer hours is about making better use of the hours that we have and just listening to expertise.

00:10:11:22 - 00:10:14:22
Kelly
We need to have access to before.

00:10:15:00 - 00:10:22:06
Alison 
Making better use of the hours we have, is such a great way to sum it up. Kelly, thank you so much. Now I'll I'd love you to share your thoughts.

00:10:22:08 - 00:10:46:11
Allen
Yeah. So I think added to what sort of Kelly has said there's an opportunity to upskill yourself. And I know this has been mentioned in terms of what does my team need to sort of farm and what's the best plan to get them there, and where do they get the resources? So using AI as a search and a planning tool is a great resource for a lot of charities, especially medium and small ones that don't have a lot of opportunities.

00:10:46:13 - 00:11:13:19
Allen
Or this, the background in terms of H.R. And why not? So just looking at what are the new marketing skills that are out there, can I help you search those function like those skill sets, and put a plan together to prompt you to go and read this article or, you know, register for this class. So there's a great opportunity to use it as a development tool for a lot of different marketing teams on not for profits as well as, you know, summarizing and using it as a creative resource.

00:11:13:19 - 00:11:34:08
Allen
So if you have some ideas and I know we all, you know, get behind a whiteboard and throw ideas together and brainstorm with our team. So it's another opportunity to use the tool to say, you know, here's some ideas. Put them all together, search what's out there, and then come back with, you know, more refined ideas that you then as a team can take a little bit further.

00:11:34:10 - 00:11:52:10
Allen
So again, it's a great searching tool. And a great development tool that a lot of groups, a lot of marketing teams can utilize. And I've seen it done and we are using it on Environics in terms of from those standpoints as well, it can keep you on task and it can really help you search for different things that you're looking for and put it all together.

00:11:52:12 - 00:12:19:14
Alison 
That's great. Now you both have given our listeners lots of reasons to want to experiment and try. And for those that have already embraced gen AI to continue their learning and experimentation, we all know that not for profits typically are not early adopters of new technologies. So for our listeners that are coming from the charitable and not for profit space, what would you recommend they do to prepare for the significant changes that gen AI is bringing?

00:12:19:20 - 00:12:22:11
Alison 
And I want to why don't you kick off this answer?

00:12:22:13 - 00:12:47:23
Allen
I would say that a lot of that are in the not for profit space, are not too far behind. there was a recent stats can report that came out that said 1 in 10 companies in Canada, corporate companies or all companies in Canada intend to actually implement AI in this next year. And in terms of Canada and the global sort of environment, where 29th out of 31 that's sort of implemented currently.

00:12:48:01 - 00:13:05:19
Allen
So the not for profit space, I would say, is not too far behind. Everybody's trying to get a sense of what is it, how can it be used, and how could this benefit my organization? How can this benefit me as a marketer in my team? So what I would say is there's it's never too late to jump in.

00:13:05:20 - 00:13:23:19
Allen
I think it's great to spend some time and find some time, as we all do, as as marketing leaders, to kind of see what's out there and talk to people and look at use cases and again, bring it back to what my team or my organization trying to achieve. And how could this help benefit us and expedite things?

00:13:23:23 - 00:13:44:10
Allen
So from mundane tasks all the way to upskilling, I think not for profits, there are different use cases that they can kind of fitted into, but it's never too late to try anything, right? Just like when I think about social media and, and when that came on board, a lot of people were trying it and some people were more hesitant and eventually got on board.

00:13:44:10 - 00:14:05:02
Allen
But it was never too late. It's just a matter of what's the right fit for your organization and what's the right use case for your organization. And also from a policy perspective, like being more aware of things that are important from privacy and whatnot. So, I think it's never too late, I guess. And at the same time, it's just you got to jump in to try.

00:14:05:02 - 00:14:07:14
Allen
You got to play and figure it out.

00:14:07:16 - 00:14:22:23
Alison 
And thinking of it more as play instead of this overwhelming, intimidating new thing is a great mindset to bring into it as well. Now, Kelly, being in the not for profit space with your current role would be great to hear what else you would add to Alan's great advice.

00:14:23:01 - 00:14:45:17
Kelly
Yes, and I think as charities, we often don't have the resources to take risks in the early stages of technology where we know there is that refinement. And, you know, the version one of something, if you look at, you know, ChatGPT when it was released, not that there's a lot of different between how it was implemented, but some of the technologies, we just can't use our resources to take risks on them.

00:14:45:19 - 00:15:04:09
Kelly
With AI, we know that we're going to be adopting it don't always be expert as any time new technology comes. So if you look at the evolution of digital marketing, we don't need to have experts, in-house SEO experts, digital marketing, meta experts. We don't need to have them in-house because we know that there will be experts there to help us.

00:15:04:09 - 00:15:26:09
Kelly
So I always want to ease everybody's mind to know the experts and people who do this for a living. We'll be able to help us understand the use cases for our charities and nonprofits, and who knows where this is going to go in the future, because we're at a certain place in time right now. But maybe our service delivery is going to be able to be delivered by AI in the future.

00:15:26:09 - 00:15:54:00
Kelly
We're not there yet, but I think one of the things that charities and nonprofits should be thinking of in the adoption of this technology is understanding where it's going, and it's really hard to keep on top of it sometimes because things change so fast. So one thing we've done at YMCA Canada, because there are risks and there's a lot of sometimes what's going to happen when these AI's, if they ever get that independent general intelligence where they can actually make decisions independently of humans.

00:15:54:00 - 00:16:24:17
Kelly
And that's scary scenario. We are nowhere near that right now, but understanding the potential pitfalls of that technology. So sometimes if you don't have that expertise in-house, that might be a skill you look to add to your board of directors. We've also encouraged learning of our staff to keep up with this. So we actually at Y Canada had a book club where we read a book called The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleyman, and he really outlines and it's not going to be necessary.

00:16:24:18 - 00:16:49:04
Kelly
It's a technical book that's not necessarily about charities and nonprofits, but just more on the state of AI and the threats to the world and how you can mitigate them. So having discussions around things like that, how are those threats and risks applicable to your organizations? Do you have policies? These policies, whatever you put in place today, you probably going to have to rethink it six months from now as the technology and new capabilities become available.

00:16:49:08 - 00:17:09:07
Kelly
So I think that's one thing, is just learning about the risks and uses of it. You don't necessarily have to be doing them, but having that general sense of the impact AI is going to have on your organization, and if you don't have that capacity in-house right now, there's people out there that can help us with that.

00:17:09:09 - 00:17:26:07
Alison 
Kelly, thanks so much. That's great value to our listeners with all of the great resources. And I love the book club idea as well. Now, Alan, do you have any additional advice for any marketers who might be listening today? And they're still a little bit overwhelmed or panicked or just unsure of where to begin exploring gen AI?

00:17:26:08 - 00:17:51:13
Allen
Right. So I think Kelly's given some great advice and some great resources. But just as an executive, I think as a marketing leader, you kind of just have to jump right in and start playing and understanding the tool. I e we have a committee that actually put together that kind of looks at different use cases and talks to the organization and comes to different town halls with ideas and showcases it and allows the teams then to kind of take it away and kind of play with it a little bit.

00:17:51:15 - 00:18:20:19
Allen
So I think we all kind of have to jump right in and and try it out and see what the limitations are and, and see how it could fit for your organization. And I think without doing that yourself, it's hard for you to direct your team to actually different use cases as well. So I think as leaders, it's upon us to try these things, to read up on them and get familiar with them in order to kind of help drive that through an organization or your own team.

00:18:20:21 - 00:18:40:05
Allen
So I think the easiest thing is dive right in, test it yourself, see how it works, try it for use case. If you know you join a podcast like we have today and just get the show notes and see how we could summarize it for you. So simple. Something simple as a task like that can start to showcase what are those opportunities for you?

00:18:40:09 - 00:19:02:23
Allen
If you have to write something and, you know, put some bullets together on, here's a blog post that I'm thinking about. You know, ask gen AI if you can add some additional thoughts or what what the gaps are in your thinking. See what it comes back with. So keep on just testing little ideas and little things with it and see how we can help you continuously progress and just read a lot of information on it.

00:19:02:23 - 00:19:30:01
Allen
I spend a lot of time on podcasts and reading different articles on it, and listening to different people outside of just courses, just to see how different organizations sort of have adopted it or used it in different instances to say, can I use that little nugget and bring it back to my organization? Can I test it myself? So I would just say, start with jumping in yourself, get familiar with it, and then just get your team playing with it as well and coming back with ideas to the table every single time.

00:19:30:01 - 00:19:44:22
Allen
So whether you put a committee together and that's, you know, an organization committee or you do it with your own team and just bring back nuances every week and ideas and nuggets, I think that's the right way to start. And that's the best way to kind of learn yourself.

00:19:45:00 - 00:20:10:05
Alison 
Many thanks. And with all the great resources that you and Kelly are both sharing, what we'll do to make it easy for our listeners is add links to the different resources that have been highlighted and the names of the books as well. So now there are lots of amazing benefits and lots of compelling reasons why marketers and not for profits, and charities and marketers in any industry really need to embrace and understand and start working with Genii.

00:20:10:07 - 00:20:27:09
Alison 
It's far from perfect. There are always risks and watch out for any new technology. So what are some of the key lessons learned that both of you have experienced or watch out for, not for profits that you would give as they start to begin to leverage on Kelly?

00:20:27:13 - 00:20:48:18
Kelly
I think for, biggest thing right now is understanding what happens to the information that you're putting in to the tool that you're using. There's some ways that those are private and that that information isn't shared into a larger database of information, but some of them aren't. It becomes part of that learning and accessible to other people eventually who would be using it.

00:20:48:18 - 00:21:12:06
Kelly
So I think that's the number one thing. And if you're not sure there's, you know, resources on the web that you can find, I have found that the paid version of tools are often smarter than the non-paid version. So that's one thing that we've been we're at our office where we use Microsoft 365 platforms of the Copilot integrations.

00:21:12:06 - 00:21:31:14
Kelly
In the paid version, we've gotten subscriptions for all our staff because that actually does offer a different level of privacy. My my general rule of thumb is if I wouldn't put it on our public website, I'm not going to put it into AI because I just assume anything going into AI is going to be public information at some point in time.

00:21:31:16 - 00:22:02:23
Kelly
Then I think also understanding just the impact of AI generated content on how your brand is represented. So, you know, are you at a place where you're comfortable using AI generated images, which as charities sometimes loses that authenticity that's so important to the work that we do and the storytelling that we do. But sometimes, though, depending on the needs that your organization addresses, it may not be appropriate to take photos of that in AI.

00:22:02:23 - 00:22:24:09
Kelly
May actually be able to help you tell your story in a different way. So I think really just understanding, the comfort level with AI generated content, I think eventually us as a society will become more accepting of it. I think right now there's some thoughts like, oh, that's not a center to us. We shouldn't be using it in our public facing materials.

00:22:24:11 - 00:22:35:13
Alison 
that's such a smart rule of thumb that you've given us as well. If you wouldn't put it on your public website, then you probably shouldn't be feeding it into ChatGPT either. So, Alan, what would you add?

00:22:35:15 - 00:22:54:01
Allen
I would definitely highlights, and reinforce the privacy aspect. So putting things in there that are private and, you know, could be harmful, I think is definitely something that you should stay away from and put some policies around it and give it some thought. I think the other added things is it's not always correct. It's not always right.

00:22:54:03 - 00:23:16:21
Allen
The answers that you get back are not always perfect. So it's that's something that we all got. So we used to, you know, putting in a search function in Google, you'll get answers and you think it's always right. But it actually is not always correct. So being very careful about what you put in there and what you get back and evaluating what you get back and having that human element and and reinforcement I think is necessary for us.

00:23:16:21 - 00:23:34:04
Allen
But it's coming to it from that mindset that it's an ad, it's a feature that you can help move you along in a process. But it's not always perfect. So it's, you know, mathematic skills might be great, but some of it's formulas it will offer how it speaks about certain things are off or it's English might be a little bit off.

00:23:34:06 - 00:24:01:17
Allen
So having coming into it with that mindset is it's not perfect and you really got to be aware of those things. So Kelly talked about being authentic. So understanding that it might not capture your voice in the perfect way and then not have perfect grammar is something to definitely be aware of as a marketer, as a writer, as someone who's putting something together, a blog post or looking at a campaign and, and copy, you always should just be aware of that.

00:24:01:17 - 00:24:08:11
Allen
So again, it's a great tool to help you get started and move you along. But it's not the final solution to something.

00:24:08:13 - 00:24:29:10
Alison 
That's so true, but only is it not perfect. Sometimes it's out and out wrong. We can't get lazy about it. We absolutely need to take the time and apply the due diligence to make sure that it's accurate and factual, and also reflective of your personal tone and values and voice and your brand's, values and voice as well.

00:24:29:12 - 00:24:47:21
Allen
It is always learning, and the beauty of AI, and we've been talking about this. It's always learning as you put more things in there as others do as well. So it gets to a better spot. But you're absolutely right. The the fact that it that you need that sort of human element always overseeing it kind of speaks to it'll never replace us.

00:24:47:21 - 00:24:53:01
Allen
It needs us to keep on. And it should be seen as a tool, not a replacement.

00:24:53:03 - 00:25:18:08
Alison 
Absolutely. Now, we've talked a lot about gen AI, and it's certainly, however, the biggest, most dominant trend in our profession today. But it's not the only trend. So our profession is absolutely continuing to evolve at warp speed. And we all have very, very busy day jobs. So I'd love you both to share, some tips for what you do to stay current with the latest trends.

00:25:18:10 - 00:25:38:15
Kelly
Kelly Jones As you said, the whole industry evolves rapidly, and a lot of that has to do with the marketing technology that we use and where I think as a charity, where you might actually see the first impact of AI if you're not using it personally, is that the tools and systems that you use are now starting to integrate AI into their platforms and solutions.

00:25:38:15 - 00:26:08:06
Kelly
So we've seen that with Adobe. We see that with things like Canva, which I know probably a lot of charities are using. So what I try to do is understand what they're offering now, through AI enhancements with their platform. And AI is the hot topic right now. So there are plenty of webinars that are offered by the vendors that you're working with that I'd encourage you to actually attend those because those are the tools that you're using, and they're just there to help you use their tools better, more efficient, and do more with them.

00:26:08:07 - 00:26:11:17
Alison 
Thanks, Kelly. That's terrific advice. Ellen, what would you add?

00:26:11:19 - 00:26:32:05
Allen
I would say that just listening to different podcasts and marketers and what's out there when going to networking events and talking to people, listening and sort of asking questions about what they're doing and how, what they're using. I use those moments and sort of reading up, you know, in different tech sections, at different newspapers about what's coming up in different campaigns.

00:26:32:10 - 00:26:53:10
Allen
I use those opportunities and those sort of tools to help me upskill and sort of just stay on top of different things. So there's great podcasts such as this one to talk about the different tools and tech that's coming up in different practices. There is great articles and blogs that are being posted on LinkedIn and other sources that will allow marketers just to stay what's on top.

00:26:53:10 - 00:27:13:11
Allen
And then Kelly, throughout the great idea and the webinar, I think there's so many great webinars being done by different vendors about all these different things. And that's something all those things that I know that I spend time reviewing, whether I wake up and I go for a run or I'm sitting on a trainer on a bike or whatever I'm doing, I think on the weekends, just reading up on all these things.

00:27:13:11 - 00:27:30:08
Allen
I think as a marketer, it's a great opportunity for us to sort of just stay on top of these trends. But there's a lot of great people talking about a lot of great things. So we're just asking more questions and being more curious, I think is really behind it all. And how do we stay current and up to date?

00:27:30:10 - 00:27:51:18
Alison 
I have a similar approach to you all on, a lot of podcasts accompany me on my runs and help distract me from the actual sweating and the hard work run. So multitasking on a different level. So you both have outstanding careers. Such an amazing experience, and I'd love to close off our discussion today by having each of you share one piece of advice for.

00:27:51:18 - 00:28:01:23
Alison 
Or it can be for not for profit markers. It can just be for any marketers who are looking to embrace gen AI and drive success in their organizations.

00:28:02:01 - 00:28:24:05
Kelly
So I think I'd like to give my advice to the people who haven't started yet, because I think there's this scariness aspect to it, like in this panel, like, oh, everybody's uses it. I'm not, I assure you, you're not the only one who has not started using it with these technologies is you've actually been designed in a different way than a lot of technologies, in that they're designed to be used based on just natural conversational language.

00:28:24:05 - 00:28:47:02
Kelly
So there's actually not a big learning curve to get started with it. And as you basically have conversations with the machine, they'll start to ask you questions to help refine the information that you're getting out of it. So I think the one advice is if you haven't started, just pick a tool chat. The free version is a great one, and you don't even have to be a work related thing.

00:28:47:02 - 00:29:09:14
Kelly
Ask it to help you plan a seven day vacation to Europe. And if you want to hit this end. And I think what really brought me into I was once you start to see the quality of the information and answers in the language, that starts to come back, because it's nothing like anything we've ever used before, and you'll see that it's really not a difficult technology to adopt.

00:29:09:14 - 00:29:33:18
Kelly
When you hear that the next version of this is out it, it doesn't impact how you input into it. It's getting smarter on how to respond to what we're inputting into it. So as we've said, is to just play. And then as you get a little more comfortable, pick a task. So maybe you do want to generate some copy for a social media post, but the more specific you can be in your ask, the better.

00:29:33:18 - 00:29:47:21
Kelly
So like the tone of voice, the length, what action you might want to drive, who it's for, the more information you can give it around the specific outputs you're looking for, the better results you're going to get. But just start playing in there.

00:29:47:23 - 00:30:05:19
Alison 
I love the start playing and by the way, plan a wonderful vacation in here if there's a very aspirational element to that. So we have any listeners that are still a little bit reluctant. You've given them, a great added incentive to get in and start playing. So, Allen, how would you wrap things up?

00:30:05:21 - 00:30:31:02
Allen
Stay curious. I think as marketers, we're probably entering or I've heard we're entering into the golden age of marketing, where we have all this rich data, where we have all this great technology and all these things at our disposal that are not overly expensive, that are giving us the opportunity to do things better, to reach our customers, to reach our donors, to reach people that we didn't think we could or understand them as well as we thought.

00:30:31:04 - 00:30:53:02
Allen
But really, it all starts with curiosity. And as a marketer, being curious about how you can do things better, how you can improve things can really lead to testing new things. Like, I like getting into data, like getting into different platforms that can deliver a better measurable result and measuring results. So I think it's just a matter of staying curious.

00:30:53:02 - 00:31:11:02
Allen
You know, we've talked about play a lot over this podcast and just playing a little bit with the tools to understand how are they relevant to your organization? What are some of the pitfalls? What are the some of the do's and don'ts? And start small and expand a little bit. And then also talk to your network about how they are using this tool.

00:31:11:02 - 00:31:28:14
Allen
I think we all as markers have great networks. We're all part of councils and committees. Like, I love my time on the NFP Committee on the CMA and some others that different boards and committees that I'm on. But I'm always asking questions of others, whether it's Kelly or other members, to say, how are you using this tool?

00:31:28:14 - 00:31:54:15
Allen
Have you seen this tool? And that's part of the great part about joining the council on the CMA is like, you have that opportunity to discuss and also share and learn. So there's a lot of great content out there. And I think as a marketer, I think I would just say be curious about it, read it and just try to go seek it every day to improve the work that you're doing, improve the team that you're working on, and sort of grow it and gather and kind of move forward and and get to your goals.

00:31:54:15 - 00:32:07:07
Allen
Because we all have lofty goals, our revenue goals or our donor goals or, you know, fundraising goals. So it's just there's a lot of great tools out there. And as a marketer, I think we have the opportunity to do some really great things.

00:32:07:09 - 00:32:30:02
Alison 
That is very well said. Curiosity for any marketer at any stage in our career is absolutely a mission critical skill. I also like you're talking about we're entering the golden age of marketing. This is a profession that I love. I know both of you love it as well. It is not an easy profession. It's demanding, it's challenging, it's constantly evolving, and there's so much possibility in it.

00:32:30:02 - 00:32:56:15
Alison 
And I truly do believe that with things like Gen, AI and just all of the change we're currently going through, it really is setting us up for a truly golden age of marketing. And I appreciate you ending the this wonderful conversation on that note, Alan. I know you're both incredibly busy, and I really appreciate the time you've taken today to share your experiences and your wisdom and great advice with all of our listeners.

00:32:56:17 - 00:32:57:07
Allen
Thanks for hanging.

00:32:57:11 - 00:33:02:11
Kelly
Out. Thanks for having us.

00:33:02:13 - 00:33:15:03
Announcer
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the The CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

 

References:

1. Financial Post: https://financialpost.com/technology/can-ai-solve-canada-productivity-crisis 

2. Stats Can Report on Business Conditions: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/240226/dq240226a-eng.htm 

3. Ipsos Report: https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Canadians-Least-Likely-AI-Make-Lives-Better 

 

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, hosts a discussion with two members of the CMA's B2B Council, Mary-Jane Owen, Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and Eric Tang, Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Together, Mary-Jane and Eric redefine what brand-building means in 2024, explore effective and efficient brand-building strategies, and explore the challenges B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:21
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:22 - 00:00:56:16
Alison
In today's episode, we're diving deep into the realm of B2B marketing, focusing on the critical roles that brand building and digital marketing play in generating leads and ultimately in  driving sales. Joining me today are two exceptional guests and also members of our CMA's B2B Council. They both bring a wealth of experience and diverse perspectives. So I'm joined by Mary-Jane Owen, who is the Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and is renowned for her data-driven approach to digital marketing, as well as her ability to consistently deliver impressive ROI for her clients.

00:00:56:18 - 00:01:28:07
Alison
Eric Tang also joins me, and he is the Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Eric is known for his expertise in crafting compelling brand narratives and strategies that really resonate with B2B audiences. Together, Mary Jane and Eric will help us redefine what brand building means in 2024. They're also going to share examples of creative and cost effective brand building tactics, and explore the challenges that B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing.

00:01:28:09 - 00:01:52:19
Alison
We're also discussing how to reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey, and to leverage the power of both brand building and demand generation to drive sustained business growth. So whether you're a seasoned B2B marketer or just starting your career, this episode is absolutely going to be jam packed with valuable insights and actionable advice that you can apply to your own organization.

00:01:52:21 - 00:02:06:21
Alison
And while we're focusing on B2B, it will also have a lot of really valuable insights for marketers in the consumer and other fields as well. So on that note, I would love to welcome Mary-Jane and Eric to our episode today. 

Mary-Jane
Thank you Alison.

00:02:06:23 - 00:02:08:08
Eric
Thank you so much.

00:02:08:10 - 00:02:20:06
Alison
Mary-Jane and Eric. I'm going to kick off by asking you both, what is your definition of brand building and digital marketing when it comes in the context of B2B? Mary-Jane, why don't you kick things off?

00:02:20:08 - 00:02:46:07
Mary-Jane
Well, I have to say that when it comes to the B2B space, brand building hasn't really been very well understood and there's often been a real reluctance to invest in those longer term marketing initiatives and a focus rather on like diverting marketing budget to the more short term lead generation type activities where the ROI was much more immediate.

00:02:46:09 - 00:03:20:23
Eric
I want to build on what Mary-Jane was just saying, and by just looking at the notion of brand building, you know, traditionally, you know, brand building is often equates to storytelling. And if we just use that lens, then yes, Mary-Jane is absolutely right, it's really hard to demonstrate quantitatively. How do you measure the impact of storytelling? But if you broaden the lens of brand building to other aspects, then it starts getting interesting and much more measurable, which I'm sure today we'll talk more about.

00:03:21:01 - 00:03:36:13
Alison
Thank you very much. I want to ask a follow up question on that. You both mentioned that historically, it's been a harder sell to B2B to invest in brand building. Are you starting to see that change, and what do you think some of the key drivers behind that are?

00:03:36:15 - 00:04:02:15
Eric
To what I was trying to say earlier, if you look at brand building, strictly storytelling, then yes, there has been, you know, even just past few months, every conference I attended, every conversation I had, people were still having this conversation or struggle between putting money in HN , which is short term, which is important, especially in this economy, versus, you know, staying on top of people's mind and mindshare.

00:04:02:17 - 00:04:33:13
Eric
However, if you look at brand building as a combination of storytelling, which is what you're saying to people and how you show up, and then the experience that your products and services are delivering to people and the functional, emotional and high values that you're delivering. Plus how you do, how you're actually behaving as a company, which, you know, we call it the business actions.

00:04:33:15 - 00:04:59:16
Eric
Then all of a sudden a lot of these things are very much measurable, especially, you know, for instance, your customer feedback as a result of the product or service you deliver, the piece of content and the relevance, you know, that as a result of your leadership. And your business action as a result, you know, and the feedback that all your stakeholders are giving you. All these are constantly being measured.

00:04:59:21 - 00:05:14:10
Eric
So it doesn't matter whether you are an SMB or whether you're a multinational company, you know, that formula applies. And if people start thinking about brand building in that context, then we start changing the conversation.

00:05:14:12 - 00:05:43:12
Mary-Jane
And I think the other aspect is to understand that the landscape is dynamic and changing. And in fact, we have to continually be adapting in terms of our demand generation and brand building activities. And so, for instance, I mean, just in the last little while, we've seen the introduction of AI. So a whole new set of tools that we need to figure out how we employ these tools to be better marketers.

00:05:43:14 - 00:05:51:07
Mary-Jane
Also, with regards to the economy, you know, we, depending on your industry, we could be entering a phase of low growth

00:05:51:07 - 00:05:51:23
Mary-Jane
Or even no growth.

00:05:51:23 - 00:06:05:11
Mary-Jane
So the landscape is shifting. So to be able to maintain our competitiveness, we really need to be doing a better job of putting the human into the equation in the marketing that we do.

00:06:05:13 - 00:06:34:19
Eric
That's so important, Mary-Jane. And, you know, if you also think about the context of B2B marketing in general, the timeline often, that sales cycle, that timeline is sometimes much longer than what, you know, people experience in the B2C world. So all of a sudden, your customer journey is quite lengthy. You know, sometimes it could be up to, you know, 18 months or longer depends on depends on your category and depends on what you're trying to promote,

00:06:34:19 - 00:07:12:01
Eric
right? So what Mary-Jane just said in terms of that human aspect and the stakeholders, what they are encountering during, let's just say that 18 months, the external environment changes all the time. Their concerns and their response to what is happening in the environment they're operating in changes all the time. So we need to be nimble about, you know, how we use a blend of the storytelling, the experience, the demand gen to be, you know, on top, to stay top of mind and consistently being relevant to these stakeholders.

00:07:12:03 - 00:07:36:13
Mary-Jane
Going a little bit deeper with that, like one of the challenges with B2B, there isn't a single decision maker. You've got sometimes it's a committee. You've got a number of different people that are going to be involved in making a decision, and they're all coming at the opportunity, your proposition, your product or service from a different lens, from a different standpoint.

00:07:36:13 - 00:08:07:06
Mary-Jane
They have different concerns, and they have different needs. And I mean, conceptually, we understand when we're building out these lead generation finals, but today it's not even a funnel, but where we really need to be better and and take the time to be more competitive is understanding the emotional element. Understand the underpinning needs, the human, the human that's behind that screen, that's evaluating your product.

00:08:07:06 - 00:08:33:14
Mary-Jane
And that will allow us to solve the problem of low conversions that a lot of people, a lot of businesses are experiencing, low conversions from their, demand generation activity. And one of the levers to access better performance out of that is taking the time to really get to know each one of those decision makers, each one of those stakeholders in a really human, personal way.

00:08:33:16 - 00:09:06:16
Eric
I have a real life example I can share that in a really reflects what Mary-Jane was saying. We have worked with a global predictive analytics company for a long time. And predictive analytics, you know, is something that's really conceptual. And in this case, this particular client works a lot with financial institutions. And as Mary-Jane mentioned, you know, the dawn of AI, not dawn, but the evolution of predictive analytics, all of a sudden, it's not just a conversation between data scientists.

00:09:06:18 - 00:09:54:01
Eric
It's becomes a conversation between risk managers, data scientists, marketing, legal, etc., etc. because they all bring different concerns to the table and every decision made for choosing this technology, it's definitely this committee at at the core, and they all bring different aspects. So when we were talking to this client with a guiding, this client, you know, all of a sudden we're looking at the B to C to B model, meaning okay, at the end, your financial institution is making your client, the financial institution is making decisions based on your technology and powered by your technology that would impact their retail clients, their retail customers.

00:09:54:03 - 00:10:31:10
Eric
You know, it could be someone who's seeking a loan. It could be someone who is managing debt, whatever that might be. And you can imagine, you know, the rich conversations in terms of targeting, legal, targeting risk managers, targeting IT, targeting marketing, all of these become, you know, part of the storytelling, part of experience. And when an expert like Mary-Jane comes, you know, and talk about lead gen she is targeting these same audience like I am but with different tools and different techniques.

00:10:31:12 - 00:10:51:19
Eric
And still, you know, we are together joining hands building, you know, creating this optimum environment so that by the time Mary-Jane does her targeting, these people would be receptive to whatever information and propositions that this demand gen journey is, is trying to achieve.

00:10:51:21 - 00:11:20:18
Alison
So you've both talked a lot about how it's not a quick decision. It's not an individual decision. There are a lot of decision makers with very different backgrounds required to ultimately make the sale. There's also a lot of influence around it. And then one of the other things that you've both touched on is the human element. And certainly we as a profession have talked a lot about B2B and B2C, and the reality that you're both highlighting is, it's all human to human, and that's such an important part of doing this well.

00:11:20:19 - 00:11:30:22
Alison
So why do you think B2B brands often struggle to determine what the right mix between brand building and digital marketing investments are?

00:11:31:00 - 00:11:55:04
Mary-Jane
So one of the challenges is that, like it's not clear that brand building delivers an ROI in the short term or even in near-term, right? And for B2B companies, and we work a lot with like small to medium-sized companies, they just have not understood the value of investing in brand building.

00:11:55:06 - 00:12:22:12
Mary-Jane
They've got limited budgets and they're very skewed towards where shorter term priorities lead generation. In fact, a lot of them would consider brand building is kind of unnecessarily fluff, you know, not worth spending money on as like a smaller business. And part of the challenge is that, like the B2B marketing lens is worn by people who've never worked in advertising or in marketing outside of their industry.

00:12:22:14 - 00:12:53:10
Mary-Jane
So they have neither the training or the education to be able to have access to kind of the fundamentals of brand building. They don't speak the language. But then additionally, the B2B value proposition has always focused on, you know, rational factors, rational justifications, the idea that decision makers would not be influenced by emotion, that it has to be a purely rational argument,

00:12:53:12 - 00:13:18:20
Mary-Jane
ou know, for the for the product or service. And in fact, research is showing that that is not true. We know it's not true for B2C and it's not true for B2B either. In fact, there was some research that was done by Wunderman Thompson, and they showed that emotional factors are a are as much a factor in decision making for B2B as too B2C.

00:13:18:21 - 00:13:50:03
Mary-Jane
And in fact, the perception of your brand drives 93% of your market share, right? And in the buying decisions, when they took a look at the factors, two thirds of the decisions were hinged on an emotional connection and only one third, by a rational connection? So everywhere we're seeing mounting evidence that brand building is an inspiring emotion, is much more effective than simply delivering

00:13:50:03 - 00:13:52:19
Mary-Jane
rational benefits alone.

00:13:52:21 - 00:14:16:07
Eric
Mary-Jane, I couldn't have said it better. And I also want to add, you know, build on what you just said, I heartedly, wholeheartedly agree, you know, with with that perspective. And I think what you just shared applies also to larger companies. And there's an other aspect that we haven't touched on, and that is sometimes the business strategy, the brand strategy and the structure of the company don't align.

00:14:16:09 - 00:14:37:12
Eric
What I mean by that is we have, you know, the good fortune, you know, this year in the B2B Council to interact with the creative counsel within CMA. And so, you know, one of the team members is from Telus and she is head of brand. And she so you can tell Telus understands brand, invests in brand, has someone that owns it.

00:14:37:13 - 00:15:04:20
Eric
So that's that's a very clear alignment versus some of the clients that I've worked with. One one client may put brand under marketing. Another client may put brand under communications. And sometimes you know it's quote unquote shared responsibilities. And so that is what I mean by the structure and the strategy alignment. You know, if that's not in place, then very often, you know, different teams will look at each other.

00:15:04:21 - 00:15:33:00
Eric
Who's owning brand? But the truth is, you know, if we accept the concept of storytelling, product, service, experience and business actions are all part of ingredients. It's part of the formula for building brand. Then, yes, you know, it is a shared responsibility. It needs to be clearly defined and you need a leader to drive all that to make sure every aspect of this is consistent.

00:15:33:02 - 00:15:39:01
Eric
So that is something I don't see on a regular basis. When it happens is magical.

00:15:39:03 - 00:16:00:20
Alison
It's so great to have that actual research quantifying the important role that emotions play in B2B. Marketing decisions and business decisions as well. So now I'd love to hear from both of you, how can B2B marketers reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey?

00:16:00:22 - 00:16:21:22
Eric
Sure. I think in terms of, you know, Mary-Jane already mentioned the traditional idea of funnel is very linear. And I just came back from some training programs, and one of my colleagues just said, well, the funnel is now become a pancake. Everything is squashed. And, you know, all the touchpoints are, you know, happening at the same time.

00:16:21:23 - 00:16:55:21
Eric
And so if you're looking at the marketing funnel in the traditional sense, you're not going to be, you know, staying relevant, you know, at all moments in time. And also in terms of reimagining the funnel, it's very much in concert with what is happening to your industry. So I'll give you an example, just by way of observation. If you look at the current, you know, leading Gen AI plays, you have open AI that, you know, obviously as represented by ChatGPT, you have Gemini.

00:16:55:21 - 00:17:18:12
Eric
You know, that is you know, Google's, you know, value proposition. And then you have Anthropic and risk solutions, and Claude. Those are just three examples, three well-known examples. And their environment when it comes to, you know, their marketing funnel, their biggest number one issue is trust. And so you can't just say, oh, do it. Address trust at the beginning or at the later end of the journey.

00:17:18:12 - 00:17:43:15
Eric
It's throughout that journey and their brand building, you know, they're not looking at, oh, how many promotional videos I should do. How many you know content pieces I should do. One of you know, people would not associate that immediately, but one of their brand building key components is the demonstration of the governance. And normally people go how was governance navigating the brand world.

00:17:43:17 - 00:18:09:09
Eric
But in this scenario it very much is. And they are overtly talking about how their governance and their governing bodies can help build trust. You know, with the enterprise customers, they're trying to attract, not just, you know, the general public users, because if they're talking to banks, if they're talking to hospitals, if they're talking to public sector, they actually need, you know, to demonstrate that trust.

00:18:09:14 - 00:18:38:06
Eric
And not to mention, you know, trying to balance between being regulated and staying in front of regulators to demonstrate that, no , we got this, we are doing this, and we're moving at a speed much faster than any government bodies can. So that's just another example of showing how in the fast paced, I'm using this extreme example, because extreme examples often can demonstrate why the traditional model, you know, needs to be reimagined.

00:18:38:07 - 00:19:04:16
Eric
And so if you're going to be a new entrant, you know, a quote unquote SMB or startup trying to, you know, seek funding, trying to get heard in the shadow of ChatGPT, Gemini and Cloud. What are you going to do? You know that that whole traditional funnel just doesn't seem to apply anymore. So that's just, you know, one example of how I see things are evolving at warp speed.

00:19:04:18 - 00:19:29:06
Mary-Jane
I'd like to add to what Eric just said, and I'm going to shift a little bit. So taking what he said, the other point that I really want to come back to is this idea that the funnel is no longer a funnel, it's flattened. And for B2B, it's so instinctive for them to want to move towards a close.

00:19:29:11 - 00:20:20:20
Mary-Jane
Like every touchpoint is moving towards a close. And that's no longer relevant today to be effective, and re-looking at this buyer journey. Right? It's way less selling and way more relating. Right? Rather than building towards a close at each time, at each touchpoint, rather thinking in terms of a service role, in the service of helping that user on your website get what they need at that step, right, rather than moving towards the close, asking permission in terms of the conversation, so that the person at the other end, that buyer feels heard and they feel that they got what they needed out of the react, out of the interaction.

00:20:20:22 - 00:20:30:14
Mary-Jane
And that is a really different mindset. And what you typically find built into these demand generation initiatives.

00:20:30:16 - 00:20:56:02
Eric
Yeah. And if I can just add one more thing and absolutely agree, Mary-Jane, and I just don't want our, our audience to think, oh, brand building is this giant investment. And iajust giant endeavour. It's giant in the sense of you absolutely need to take the time to think about it and, you know, build on what Mary-Jane is saying, you know, how do you change the mindset from, you know, funnel to pancake?

00:20:56:08 - 00:21:19:16
Eric
How do you change the mindset of what is valuable? How do you invest in experience as much of the storytelling as much as your action, and I'm using the big example, but very cost effective example. And also, by the way, that doesn't mean the traditional tactics and traditional approach, you know, just go out of the window. So it's it's just a matter of complementing each other.

00:21:19:18 - 00:21:51:09
Eric
So in the course of our last season, you know, with the B2B Council, some colleagues brought to our attention, you know, the power of TikTok and how IBM, of all companies, are using it. And we just thought, oh, we never imagined that platform would be something that IBM would consider, or be beneficial. And when you actually follow the channel, when you look at the content they put out, it is quite  indicative of what they're trying to do.

00:21:51:11 - 00:22:11:16
Eric
As you can imagine, TikTok videos are not big production. In fact, they shouldn't be, right? They're a bit more scrappy, you know, a bit more authentic, a bit more authentic, a bit more in the moment. So I'll give you two examples of what they did and which is quite interesting. One is the most traditional one in that they were at South by Southwest.

00:22:11:18 - 00:22:35:06
Eric
So clearly they want to associate the brand with creativity and with, you know, future thinking. They use real people on the floor, IBM, as they call them. You know, in this case a prime market manager. And just do a TikTok video and you say, okay, well, that you know, what's what's so special about it. What's so special about it is how they show up.

00:22:35:10 - 00:23:03:17
Eric
You know, they're using a creator as the interviewer and they're using the product marketing manager as a speaker, and they're using language that absolutely anyone can relate to. And that speaks volume to what Mary-Jane was saying. The human side. You know, the the IBMer was saying, hey, I'm a mom, I'm a working mom. And if AI could just sort of all of my household management duties, that would be my dream.

00:23:03:19 - 00:23:34:15
Eric
And so all of a sudden it's very relatable. And so that's one example. The second example is they use deliberately TikTok humour, you know, really quote unquote rough and ready animation. But it's not because they can't afford, you know, big beautiful production. This is deliberate. You can tell. And it's a short video, TikTok humor, so often you can tell, oh, this is driving to a very specific audience and that would resonate with that specific audience.

00:23:34:16 - 00:24:03:03
Eric
And the third, going back to AI, is they are using these little clips, you know, to explain AI to people and just keep reiterating, keep it simple. So I can only, you know, I'm an outsider. I don't run that program, but I can only imagine a) they're trying to reach, you know, at a younger generation workforce. And in, in this case it's so important that to touch to start, you know, grooming and be relevant to the next generation workforce.

00:24:03:05 - 00:24:30:09
Eric
Extending their investment in a conference, in this case South by Southwest to a much larger audience and get more impact out of it and them making themselves just shake out the, you know, big blue, kind of, brand perception and, and just and just be humorous, just just be TikTok-ready. So all of these things contribute to, to me as a user, as a viewers experience of the brand.

00:24:30:11 - 00:24:49:00
Alison
Those are great examples, Eric. And I really like how it's a great demonstration that doesn't have to be big budget to build your brand. They have absolutely focused on being very relevant and added a very human element to what they're doing. So thank you for bringing to life a lot of what we've talked about today with those very powerful examples.

00:24:49:02 - 00:24:56:02
Alison
So what advice do you have for B2B marketers who are really looking to elevate their craft and seize missed opportunities? 

00:24:56:03 - 00:25:09:14
Mary-Jane
So I would say, I would say, you know, if you're a younger person early in your career, you know, you're already on a path where you've selected, you know, what you feel is going to be your subject matter expertise, right, your skill set.

00:25:09:19 - 00:25:53:15
Mary-Jane
And so you really need to understand that talent and brains are a dime a dozen. So for you to really advance, you need to to invest in making yourself the best that you can be in that area. But I think the other thing, and this is recognizing that we live in such a dynamic and changing world, is that really maintaining a broad curiosity in life and be willing to invest in broadening your knowledge across a lot of different areas beyond the the skill set that you're becoming an expert in, because it's that broader perspective that will bring to you the opportunities yourself to have creative insights.

00:25:53:17 - 00:26:14:15
Eric
Yeah, Mary-Jane, what you just said reminds me of, a very good visual. One of my SEO clients, shared with me a long time ago. He calls it the T shape. So you have to be as broad as you need to be in the environment that you're operating and as deep as you need to be in terms of your subject matter expertise.

00:26:14:21 - 00:26:47:08
Eric
And I think in today's world, like you said, many, many people start with being a subject matter expert, that that is a normal, career path. What is challenging now is how broad do we need to go? And I think that's where we're seeing a lot of signals in the B2B world, that creativity is actually much more valued and much more embraced, as reflected by, say, you know, a lot of the national and international awards, including, you know, our very own CMA Awards. And why?

00:26:47:09 - 00:27:25:09
Eric
Because there's a lot to be learned from other disciplines. I'll give one final example, and that's an example actually Mary-Jane and I used it in our blog for the CMA, and that is, a campaign launched by Roland, which is an enterprise printing technology company, and it's a UK campaign. Now, traditionally, and I have worked with printing companies, traditionally, when you have a printing technology, you go to trade shows, you have white papers, you go knock on doors and tell people, you know how amazing, you know, this feed and feeds and whatever you can do with this technology. None of that is going to go away,

00:27:25:09 - 00:27:58:02
Eric 
you still need to do all those things. But what they have done is they literally borrowed a song sheet from traditional B2C marketing. They are trying to demonstrate the superiority of that printing technology by addressing the, what they call 50 Shades of Ginger. Looking at how we can demonstrate the gradient of this technology through storytelling from a consumer lens.

00:27:58:04 - 00:28:28:12
Eric
So they engaged influencers to talk about how redheads growing up, you know, have a lot of challenges, you know, being accepted because they are minority from from that perspective. And, but they have fun conversations, right? You know, oh, yeah. You know, I, I don't know if I was a ginger or a redhead, or what I call myself? And then they, they have, you know, influencers going on television talking about this technology because they produce this book of 50 Shades of Ginger.

00:28:28:14 - 00:28:55:14
Eric
And from there they create an event and bringing all the, you know, people with ginger coloured hair, hair together to an event and talk about their shades and talk about, oh, how I can replicate that shade and that becomes this campaign on broadcast on, you know, morning television, in mainstream newspapers, which no print technology company traditionally would dream of getting that kind of attention.

00:28:55:20 - 00:29:09:20
Eric
Now, of course, that example is so good that it won a Drum award in the UK last year. And but that is a really good example to show how both B2B and B2C can learn from each other.

00:29:09:22 - 00:29:30:23
Alison
That is such a fun example. I have a couple of gingers in my life and I'll definitely be sharing that story with them. So you both have very impressive and enviable careers. So we'll step away from the B2B conversation now, and I'd love to end by having you each share a piece of advice for our listeners. I know that they would really enjoy being able to learn from each of you.

00:29:31:01 - 00:29:57:18
Mary-Jane
A single piece of advice I would say. I mean, we all wear blinders, right? It what? It's what allows us to be really laser-focused. But of course, in being laser- focused, we miss out on what is in the periphery, in other words, the blinders that we wear. So I'd invite each of us to really challenge yourself, to be curious about what's on the other side of the blinders that you're wearing.

00:29:57:20 - 00:30:30:00
Eric
Mine is very similar to Mary-Jane, you know, Mary-Jane, you used the word curiosity, which I use for myself and my team a lot. And for me, it doesn't matter where you are at in your career journey, curiosity and constant learning is really something that I value. And I encourage, my team and whoever works with me, you know, to to embrace, because, you know, to Mary -ane's point, we all have blinders and the environment changes so quickly.

00:30:30:05 - 00:30:43:12
Eric
The last thing we want is to have a Kodak experience. So we we sometimes we just don't know what's coming. And you know, we really just need to pay attention to what is evolving.

00:30:43:14 - 00:31:03:13
Alison
And that is great advice. Our profession is going through absolutely tectonic shift. So anyone that is going to continue to thrive absolutely has to be open to change. Embrace that. And curiosity is an absolutely mission critical skill. So great advice and thank you to the two of you. I also want to thank you for a really great and insightful conversation.

00:31:03:13 - 00:31:11:08
Alison
I've learned a lot, and I know our listeners have as well, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedules to join us today.

00:31:11:10 - 00:31:12:04
Mary-Jane
Our pleasure.

00:31:12:09 - 00:31:13:09
Eric
Thank you so much.

00:31:13:11 - 00:31:14:12
Mary-Jane
Thank you Alison.

00:31:14:15 - 00:31:17:23
Eric
It's been great fun and great honour to to have this discussion with you.

00:31:18:04 - 00:31:23:19
Alison
Thank you.

00:31:23:21 - 00:31:36:11
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, CMA's CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Scott Megginson, President of Kantar Canada, to discuss how marketers can stay ahead in a rapidly changing business landscape. Scott shares his perspective on the seismic shifts in consumer insights, the most significant changes in Canadian consumer behaviour, and how data democratization and AI are transforming the world of research.

00:00:03:06 - 00:00:23:04
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business news with your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:06 - 00:00:50:17
Alison
In the rapidly evolving business landscape, marketers are constantly seeking ways to stay ahead of the curve and drive truly meaningful growth for their organizations. But what if one of the keys to unlocking these new opportunities and gaining a competitive edge lies in the democratization of data and the adoption of innovative technologies? Today, I'm joined by Scott Megginson, president of Kantar Canada and a very seasoned insight leader with over two decades of experience on both the client and the agency side.

00:00:50:22 - 00:01:17:19
Alison
Scott's also a regular guest speaker and coach for the research analytics program at George Brown College. Scott's here to share his perspectives on the seismic shifts that are happening in consumer insights and in the market research industry. We're also going to discuss how Kantar is leading the charge by making their vast troves of brand data accessible to marketers everywhere and at no cost, which is certainly a remarkable opportunity for brands and businesses and a bit of a surprising approach for a research company.

00:01:17:21 - 00:01:34:16
Alison
So from navigating changing consumer behaviours to leveraging AI-powered tools and platforms, Scott is here to offer a wealth of knowledge and practical advice for marketers who are really looking to elevate the role of insights within your organizations and drive real business impact. Scott, it's truly a pleasure to welcome you here today.

00:01:34:21 - 00:01:43:09
Scott
Thank you. Alison. I hate to admit it, but it's actually over three decades of experience and I'm going to date myself there. But thank you for making me a bit younger.

00:01:43:12 - 00:01:45:04
Alison
You're aging very gracefully.

00:01:45:06 - 00:01:46:03
Scott
I'm trying.

00:01:46:05 - 00:01:52:18
Alison
So I want to start with what do you see as the most significant shifts in the Canadian consumer behaviour and attitudes right now?

00:01:52:20 - 00:02:16:01
Scott
You know, it's an interesting question. Kantar isn't a public opinion company, but we do a lot of work monitoring consumer trends. We have a group within the company that manages our, runs our Canada Monitor. You know, if you're three decades like me, you might remember the yankelovich monitor. And this is just an evolution of that same, the same tool.

00:02:16:01 - 00:02:34:21
Scott
And it's, really to monitor social trends, with consumers. I mean, this is opportune. We're going to be diving into this at the CMA CX event in June. We actually have our expert coming up to talk about some of these trends and how it impacts marketers. But, you know, when you think about top concerns of Canadians right now, they shifted.

00:02:34:22 - 00:03:00:08
Scott
They shifted during the pandemic. And right now what we're seeing won't be a surprise - inflation, the economy, health care, housing costs and climate change, in that order are the top five. But there are a lot of implications for marketers. When we dig into it, Canadians are really in a frustrated state. They're frustrated. It feels like a stacked deck. They're impatient to get ahead right now.

00:03:00:10 - 00:03:17:23
Scott
You know, they've been waiting and waiting and they're impatient to move ahead. Almost half believe that they'll become rich in their lifetime. And that was about a third of people in 2018 before the pandemic. So I don't know if people are buying more lottery tickets or waiting for the big ship to come in, but they want to be given a win, too.

00:03:17:23 - 00:03:42:22
Scott
And that's something to think about with, for marketers. They're uninspired by innovation. It's something that we're seeing as well. They're uninspired by marketing as well. They're looking for relevance through emotion, value and control. Those three areas. So what they're really looking for is a reason. It's about giving them a reason. A higher proportion about quarter, don't pay any attention to advertising right now or claim to.

00:03:43:03 - 00:04:09:18
Scott
And maybe it's more. So they're just not feeling they're getting the relevance or messaging. And another thing is they're looking for self care. And there's a whole set of implications here for people that work in wellness and health areas that could do a lot with it. But all brands can in a way because, you know, it's not just the wellness we think about with diet and other areas, but they're working with self care through things like novelty and nostalgia.

00:04:09:21 - 00:04:35:19
Scott
We actually saw people are nostalgic for the pandemic, if you can believe that. Social connection, and they really just need a break and get off the treadmill a bit. And, you put these things together and it's really supported by, economists are now saying that Canada's productivity is, it's measured at point 3% versus 1.5 in the US. So it's, productivity is super low in Canada.

00:04:35:21 - 00:04:51:04
Scott
But there are great opportunities for marketers. You know, marketers can give hope. They can inspire innovation. They can help people achieve their mental and physical health goals as well. So, you know, when there's a problem, there's a solution. There's a lot marketing can do for this.

00:04:51:06 - 00:05:11:12
Alison
And that's very insightful and very instructive to know from a, certainly from a marketer and a brand perspective. It's a bit sad to see, certainly the level of productivity in Canada from a competitive sort of North American and global scale. That's certainly something that we, as a marketing profession, but every business really needs to be able to address.

00:05:11:13 - 00:05:22:01
Alison
When you talked about a third not paying attention to advertising, I mean, that's been one of the challenges of marketers for a long time. But have you seen that increase where even more people just aren't paying attention?

00:05:22:03 - 00:05:40:17
Scott
Yeah, I mean, in this particular measure, it has been an increase and it was about a quarter. But we have other data sources, other measures that we take that would look even higher than that. And, you know, a lot of it's a clutter and the noise, a lot of it's just the the challenges that media has, with ad blockers.

00:05:40:17 - 00:06:00:04
Scott
And there's just so many ways to avoid advertising in general. But when you do have a captive audience, that's a problem. You know, if a quarter or more people aren't paying attention, all because of the cynicism they have towards the advertising, that's an issue. And that's gonna be a big issue to deliver messages. So it wasn't a surprise.

00:06:00:04 - 00:06:06:08
Scott
It's been going this direction, but it is an opportunity to deliver better messaging to consumers.

00:06:06:13 - 00:06:18:00
Alison
And when you were sharing some of the more recent findings, the one that certainly surprised me the most was people feeling a little bit melancholy and almost wishing back for the days of the pandemic. So what surprised you the most?

00:06:18:02 - 00:06:52:03
Scott
So I'm a Gen-Xer, and a leading Gen-Xer, so, I grew up in office environments and and things like that. And I mean, as a person, it just befuddles me that people don't want to go back to the office and such. But as an employer, you know, I look at our younger employees that we have as well, or people with families and lifestyles changed so much during that, like just all the concepts of pet ownership and parenting and, and, dry cleaning, just everything else really, really changed.

00:06:52:03 - 00:07:12:16
Scott
And that's why companies like Lululemon did so well. They reinvented workwear with leisurewear. You know, as a person, my age, I have trouble getting my head around it. I couldn't wait to get back. But it's pretty clear to see with how slow Return-to-Office has been with people, and some of the things that people are longing for are the different social connections.
 
00:07:12:16 - 00:07:30:14
Scott
I think everybody out on their street, you know, having a drink together, at social distance, and there's a whole new level of social connection that started during the pandemic that's starting to get disrupted, and people are just missing probably how they learned to cope with it in a way, having that taken away from them, and their lifestyle.

00:07:30:15 - 00:07:34:11
Alison
We joked about the new normal, but the reality is there's no such thing as the new normal.

00:07:34:16 - 00:07:39:22
Scott
There's no normal. We'll find out eventually. Maybe, but not for a while, right?

00:07:39:23 - 00:07:58:10
Alison
Now Scott, your experiences on both the agency and client side of delivering insights and doing that across a really vast range of industries gives you such great perspective. So I know our listeners would certainly benefit from your advice on how insights teams can be a more powerful growth driver for their organizations.

00:07:58:12 - 00:08:19:10
Scott
And, you know, I've seen a lot in my years, and I started on the agency side, for eight years, and then I moved to the client side for 11. You know, I worked in CPG at both Warner Lambert and PepsiCo, and then came back to the agency side. A lot of people don't do the full circle. So I have seen a lot internally how client organizations with research and value it.

00:08:19:12 - 00:08:42:08
Scott
And then now I have the privilege to work in so many different clients and so many different cultures, and you see a lot as well. I mean, a lot of that's my personal view on it. And I'll get back to that. But we've done a lot of work on this. So we have a whole consulting arm of Kantar, and we've been doing research in this area for a while now, and there is a gold standard study that BCG did.

00:08:42:10 - 00:09:03:01
Scott
And that was the whole piece about moving from Insight to foresight, back in the, you know, the early 2000s. And that was held up for a long time. And it was a call to action for internal researchers to to really move to the, the what now, what you know, and so what's, in all those as opposed to just the what.

00:09:03:03 - 00:09:25:16
Scott
But things have moved rapidly, and that's really seen as table stakes right now. So we did a big study and we, it was called Insights 2020, it was in the Harvard Business Review. We've had a few of these studies published there, and we actually conducted research with over 10,000 people at different levels in different sectors and organizations. And it's over 60 countries, including Canada.

00:09:25:18 - 00:09:49:00
Scott
We had a lot of interviews here in Canada as well. And, what we did was, we divided, we divided the results between high performing companies and all the other companies. And then we had the, because it was claimed, we had NYU do a validation with financial results and it was pretty accurate, actually. People who said they're a high-performing company were.

00:09:49:02 - 00:10:11:22
Scott
And you that's nice. We'd all like to be. But so we felt good about the segmentation that we had. There were a few things, like a couple of rules of three that we found out here, as key implications. And one of them was that the high-performing companies that were achieving this great growth were consumer-centric, it was consumer-centric growth, you know, putting the customer, consumer in the middle of it.

00:10:12:00 - 00:10:37:09
Scott
And what they did was - one, they delivered a total experience to customers. And think about how we bring our brand promise together, with our customer experience and the whole cycle. And then think about how the customer experience is informing the brand promise and what we advertise, and tell our customers or consumers what to do. And companies don't do this very often.

00:10:37:09 - 00:10:56:22
Scott
I mean, I've seen so many examples where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and it's it's different departments, it's different agendas, it's different budgets. Whereas top performing companies have a seamless flow between the two. You know, I'll give you another plug for CMA CX, because, you know, I think you're going to cover a lot there.

00:10:57:00 - 00:11:24:00
Scott
But we saw this behaviour and the high-performing companies were four times more likely to have this, this total experience, than the other companies. So that was pretty big. Another one was customer obsession. And customer obsession starts at the top of the organization. You need your CEO, your CFO, your head of sales, your HR, your supply chain, everybody at the top and all the way through down

00:11:24:00 - 00:11:50:01
Scott
the organization has to be obsessed with the customer and the consumer. This is critical. Also leads to a purpose-led organization, which, you know, every person at a checkout counter to the driver to, you know, the people manufacturing the plant are all serving the same purpose. And it's the customer obsession. Again, the companies that did this, like demonstrated four times more than all the lower-performing companies.

00:11:50:03 - 00:12:17:14
Scott
And then the last one, and this is one that applies to our research in particular, it's strategic leverage of insights and analytics. Right. And we call it the Insight Engine. And if you want, I can unpack that a little more because it has three components to it as well. But so what do you do. So what differentiates the high performing organizations with Insights Engine is that they have a leading role of insights and analytics, meaning they have a seat at the table.

00:12:17:16 - 00:12:39:08
Scott
They often report to the CEO of the company, and they're part of the decision making. Whereas under-performers and we see this a lot as well. And I've been in organizations like this, they have a separate insights and analytics team that reports to marketing or other functions. So they divided across functions and they effectively act as a marketing services team.

00:12:39:10 - 00:13:15:07
Scott
So it's critical that the insights team is reporting up high, has a seat at the decisions. And independent budgets help a lot too. The other thing is they unlock the power of data. And you know, we we've all talked a lot about data visualization and how important that is. But it's also leveraging how research has changed, like now we have so much automated research and we have so much AI-generated research coming up in the near future, that that rather than conducting big studies and going to reams of data, it's getting early signals and then responding to them.

00:13:15:07 - 00:13:38:21
Scott
And the value that these researchers bring is that they can look at a red flag coming up, pinging on their phone, and sit down with the CMO and have a really good discussion about what happened, what we think is going on, and what can we do about it or get ahead of it, maybe it's an opportunity, right. But it's like working in real time with real signals rather than big research studies and the experiment.

00:13:38:21 - 00:13:56:19
Scott
And back in the day, YouTube was known when it got started. They put 10% of the research budget in things they had no idea if they could possibly work or not. Nobody does that. They're too conservative. Very few companies do it. And then 20% was stuff that day was wild ideas last year, that okay, let's let's prove them out now.

00:13:56:21 - 00:14:13:18
Scott
And then the other 70% was stuff they knew worked. And so you're always like, you're always bringing new thinking that way. And I think it was YouTube, I'll give them credit for it at least. But that kind of thinking with experimentation. And the third thing is that these insights engines, these companies have worked really well with insights.

00:14:13:19 - 00:14:37:05
Scott
They develop critical capabilities. And we're not talking about tech in this case. We're talking about the people capabilities and skills that bring, storytelling and creative solutions. And more important than anything else is that they are answering business questions, not research questions. So when you make a recommendation, it's how it's going to grow the business and drive shareholder growth.

00:14:37:06 - 00:14:44:10
Scott
It's not about, hey, you moved this measure up 4%. Congratulations. Here's a bonus, right. I call it smiley KPI.

00:14:44:10 - 00:15:15:02
Alison
It's such great perspective Scott. Now I've been the CMO and often thought one of the superpowers of the marketing team at that executive table is being the voice of the customer. And obviously having insights and data to lead that. When I've had the best impact, when we've had an executive team that was working together, it was around being very insights focused, recognizing that the customer wasn't just the marketing ownership, it was the customers needed to impact absolutely everything that we did.

00:15:15:04 - 00:15:27:18
Alison
I haven't been in an organization where insights was a separate department with direct reporting into the CEO. So that's a great observation that some of the top- performing companies have that. 

00:15:27:20 - 00:15:52:10
Scott
Unilever, globally has had that, and they really flourished, during that whole time. And there are I mean, there are examples around the world where that happens, like, you know, I remember my time at Warner Lambert, they made a big change. And this was back, you know, 1999, like 25 years ago or so. And one of those big visions was that the insights team,

00:15:52:12 - 00:16:12:10
Scott
they should have their own budget and they should report to the president of Warner Lambert, our division for Canada. And that was achieved. And it gave us a lot of attitude, latitude rather to, to be, strategic advisors and partners and, and if you've ever heard Peter Rodriguez and I share stories of that day, we worked together,

00:16:12:10 - 00:16:35:19
Scott
I know he's a regular with the CMA. When you have that, it's very different from when you work for an organization where you are given a budget, by marketers, could be any team, really, and your job is to go and get support for what you're doing often. You know, it's like that whole David Ogilvy "lamp post for support, rather than illumination" thing that we've heard a zillion times.

00:16:35:19 - 00:16:57:07
Scott
But it's true. Whereas, if you have control over the budget, you can invest it in areas that can have the maximum impact for an organization. Tell people things they might not want to hear. And then, tell them things that are going to really help drive the business. So it does happen in different places. Like I never got all the way to bright when I was leading insights for different organizations, but it did make a lot of progress in these areas.

00:16:57:07 - 00:17:19:16
Scott
And what I found really quickly was to do that, you needed to help every stakeholder around the table. And I mean, like the, you know, the leadership table at the company. And so what are you doing to help HR, and what are you doing to help the sales team, food service team. Obviously, you're working the CMO closely at that point too, some companies do this.

00:17:19:16 - 00:17:30:15
Scott
And the more direct connection there is between insights and leadership, it's great. It helps drive this, but you don't get a seat at the table, you have to earn a seat at the table. So you have to have something of value to bring to it.

00:17:30:17 - 00:17:39:06
Alison
It would certainly remove any perceived bias if they were reporting directly, instead of reporting through any other of the colleagues around the C-suite, so it's...

00:17:39:11 - 00:17:40:18
Scott
Accountability.

00:17:40:19 - 00:17:44:00
Alison
Something I haven't seen before. So it's a very interesting finding from my perspective.

00:17:44:00 - 00:18:15:05
Scott
When we talk about the behaviours, because I know, you know, you said in the introduction, talking about democratizing data, we'll get into that, I guess, but one of them is there's a big behavioural difference between low-performing organizations and high-performing organizations. High-performing organizations are sharing and collaborating. Everything is accessible for everybody to interpret and challenge, right? As opposed to hoarding, because it gives some level of perceived power, or control, which is really negative and could drive the organization down.

00:18:15:05 - 00:18:17:18
Scott
So yeah, that's another key part too.

00:18:17:18 - 00:18:33:21
Alison
That's a great add on. Thank you. So I am very curious to hear what inspired Kantar's decision to democratize brand data, in particular to give it away for free. And I'd love to also hear, are you already seeing brands take advantage of this very generous opportunity?

00:18:33:23 - 00:18:58:02
Scott
A bit of background on that really quickly. What we've shared is all the data from Kantar's brandz that we do around the world. I mean, this is, this is a huge country is it's multiple categories. It's, 18,000 brands, probably about 20,000 by now, it's over 5 billion data points. And, you know, as we're reporting on it, we're using it for our brand valuations on a regular basis.

00:18:58:04 - 00:19:21:01
Scott
Our vision is to be an indispensable brand partner. That's what we want to be. So we made the decision to put this forward with the idea is that democratizing data, making available for everyone. And I mean, obviously, the benefit is that people see the data that might spark their interest, or they might be, they might like our approach and want to talk to us about it, or doing some work with them, of course.

00:19:21:01 - 00:19:39:18
Scott
And we're a business now, not for profit. So we're looking at that. But it's really stimulated a lot of great discussion already. So, if we throw out the link when we put this out, I mean, as a follow up, anybody can go in there and it's, there are no strings attached, you register and you have access to all of it.

00:19:39:20 - 00:20:04:03
Scott
So that current belief is in the data democratization. And so this is one step. But we also create a lot of libraries of all the results. So if our clients will allow it, everybody in the organization can access results on a regular basis at their fingertips. And so there are a lot of steps, I mean, dashboards that have been a really great move that the industry has taken forward, to make data accessible for everybody as well.

00:20:04:05 - 00:20:22:19
Scott
And some of the biggest questions we get from Canadian clients are, what's going on with the American clients? Or what's going on with the English clients? And they don't share. We often have to help with the sharing. And you know, we're happy to, you know, if we don't get our hands slapped too hard. That type of thing. The idea here is to share the brandz data and all of everything that's in there.

00:20:22:21 - 00:20:43:00
Scott
And you asked about who's using that and such right now? And so we found that the early users, early adopters in the market, or I've seen personally in Canada, in some cases is  smaller brands like ones who don't have big tracking budgets or the data. And they're just really interested, you know, once a year checking out what's going on or are looking at other categories.

00:20:43:00 - 00:21:07:11
Scott
And so we've had some of them, using it, which is great. You know, glad we can offer that up for them. We've had some marketers who are, who don't have brand data available, at the time they need it, have big meetings or decisions to make, and had one of those recently and she accessed it. And it was very helpful to make some informed decisions based on, you know, consumers and like how they felt about the brand against competition.

00:21:07:13 - 00:21:33:07
Scott
I think one of the coolest use cases, I was, last year I was leading automotive sector in the US and, and we had a, agency planner that was really grappling with global positioning for their brand. So I introduced them to, to brand snapshot, and they were able to take a look quickly at how their brand performed in every market or many markets, like 12 or 14 around the world.

00:21:33:09 - 00:21:57:18
Scott
And see, in the strong markets, what consumers thought about the brand versus the market in the US, where they're quite weak in comparison. So ton of value right there. I could see this being of amazing use to, mergers and acquisitions going forward. Because if you  have your eye on a brand, you can take a look at how well do they fit with our brands currently or, you know, are they, is there a lot of interaction?

00:21:57:18 - 00:22:11:08
Scott
Are they truly incremental?, Yeah. Maybe a little bit of that that you could look at. But it would make a lot of sense I think as part of the research to get a little bit of a brand view in there too. So, so that's available for people too.

00:22:11:10 - 00:22:46:19
Alison
It's such a valuable offer, when I think about our, our membership and  the Canadian marketing industry, where so often we're the Canadian office or region for a global brand and business, and it's can be hard justify why we need Canadian specific marketing. So having access to this sort of data on such a global and significant level, and at no cost, is a really powerful advantage in helping demonstrate why Canadian brands and marketing teams really do need to invest in Canada.

00:22:46:19 - 00:23:00:23
Alison
Because on the surface, especially if you're looking from south of the border, you can see how we're similar to the U.S. and it might not always be so obvious how we're different. So thank you on behalf of the profession for giving us access to a really powerful way to help build that case.

00:23:01:05 - 00:23:18:03
Scott
Yeah, and that's a great use case right there, Alison, where I mean, you could compare the brand in Canada and the US as it's from the database for both, and someday, if you give me another shot, I would love to talk about the importance of Canadian creative and why U.S. ads don't transfer into to Canada, because we have data on that too.

00:23:18:03 - 00:23:19:08
Scott
You're right on the mark.

00:23:19:10 - 00:23:38:17
Alison
That is definitely a hot topic and I will happily bring you back to have that conversation. So there is very little business marketing topics today that AI isn't impacting. And obviously that's true of insights in the research too. So I'd love you to share how you see AI help transforming the world of both research and insights.

00:23:38:19 - 00:24:01:18
Scott
That's a good question. It also goes back to our discussion about insights engines and the importance of that, and experimentation and interpretation and such. As technology changes, the best researchers and marketers are going to have to change with it, or they'll be obsolete very, very quickly. And there's, you wouldn't believe how much resistance, I mean, I've been doing this so long.

00:24:01:18 - 00:24:27:13
Scott
Like, I just I use every bit of energy just to try to keep up, if not ahead of some of the trends that are happening in research. I'll give you a couple of examples, personal examples of when, you know, I've seen, people are resistant to it and I won't mention names, but there's one example, going back eight years ago or so, and we started launching, Kantar started launching automated research, and anybody could access it.

00:24:27:13 - 00:24:48:06
Scott
Again, it's different forms of democratization. You could do a study right now or an ad agency could test their own ad and show data to the client. Anybody could access it. And I remember when we first put it up, just one traditional researcher in the market just getting really upset on my LinkedIn feed saying, what do you mean?

00:24:48:06 - 00:25:12:12
Scott
Anybody with a credit card can do research? That's not right. Of course it's right!  Why not? And then, we've seen a lot. I mean, the one of the last hot topics was, system one under you know, the, the whole, you know, neuroscience, behavioural science aspect. And I remember sitting at a dinner table, we socialize with a competitor, and this competitor making a full statement.

00:25:12:12 - 00:25:39:13
Scott
Everybody at the table. Real science is just a fad, right? Well, I don't know about that. It's kind of driven a lot of what we do. But just a couple of examples, and those are just personal examples, but you need to leverage this stuff. I mean, this is the greatest opportunity a researcher can have is to try something new and get a fresh look at things. Like, we've been we've been using AI for six years now at Kantar. It's not new to us. Like we use it for text analytics,

00:25:39:13 - 00:25:58:23
Scott
We have our link AI. This is actually we were talking about ads going from market to market. We develop this for Coke and Microsoft to test how ads could move from market to market using AI and our normative database. And we use this in our tracking to forecast, based on the trends. We have always on market mix modeling now.

00:25:58:23 - 00:26:19:06
Scott
And it's incredible how you can leverage AI, but it's Gen AI, which is the real game changer right now. And it's a huge area of focus for us. We have a nature, partnership. I don't think it's been announced yet, but we're working at very high levels globally. So we can put this in everything we do. And it's going to, it's going to really help with not just our own productivity,

00:26:19:06 - 00:26:45:12
Scott
how we work, but our ability to analyze and work quickly. Like, it's going to change how we collect data. It's going to change how we analyze data, how we deliver data. But at the same time, like this is for, you know, broader for researchers, it's an opportunity to do stuff we're talking about, you know, redefining yourself, always. like, who would be a, who would be better at being a product engineer than a researcher that's been trained

00:26:45:12 - 00:27:16:15
Scott
to ask questions your entire life, right? And good questions and bad questions. Like, you know, what I play with? And I, you know, I give really bad poetry, because I'm not a good poet, but I can really probe copilot to answer some good questions, right? And it's also about really embracing the dynamism is critical. You know, I talked about being in the forefront, but you can immerse yourself in uncertainties and the uncomfortable zone and then use this for scenario planning, too, and play out different scenarios as, as AI is advancing.

00:27:16:17 - 00:27:39:12
Scott
But I think one of the key pieces right here, one of the pieces of low hanging fruit, is I've talked about storytelling, and how important storytelling is for insights. When you can get AI to build your story for you and get it 70%, you can make that last 30% the most compelling thing in the world. Make sure it makes sense and tell a great story, rather

00:27:39:12 - 00:27:59:05
Scott
than going through all the numbers and you know, it's up and down, it's just going to push us ahead. So, you know, if you look at Maslow, we're going to get towards our self-actualization if we choose to, rather than the security at the bottom worrying about our jobs all the time. So I think it's the greatest gift and the greatest opportunity, so very excited about.

00:27:59:07 - 00:28:17:16
Alison
Yeah, I definitely share your enthusiasm for Gen AI and the whole example you gave around looking at the quote unquote blank page. It's always easier to edit than it is to create from scratch. So, from a storytelling perspective, even if you don't like the starting point, it just makes it easier to then jump down and edit and refine and tell it in a powerful way.

00:28:17:16 - 00:28:36:23
Alison
So, great examples. So, in closing, you joked about your 30 years of experience, and in that 30 years you have learned a great deal, and you've shared a lot with us today. But that also means you have some great advice to offer. So I'd love to end our time together today by having you share one piece of advice for our marketers who are listening.

00:28:37:01 - 00:28:59:12
Scott
Well, any marketer who's worked with me is going to be sick of hearing this, because it's the piece of advice I've given for many, many, many years. I give it to all my colleagues and all my, all my staff and everybody else. But I believe in it. When you're standing on a beach, and there's a major huge wave, tidal wave of change coming your way, you have two choices.

00:28:59:13 - 00:29:14:01
Scott
You can stand there, deny it, do nothing, and you're going to get swept away and crushed by it. Or, choice number two, you can grab a surfboard and get on top of and have the ride of your life. That's all.

00:29:14:03 - 00:29:26:06
Alison
Great advice. So I'm definitely going to be donning my surfboard and heading out, so I hope all of our listeners will do the same. Scott, thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, and we will happily invite you back to share more.

00:29:26:11 - 00:29:30:07
Scott
It's been a pleasure, Alison. Thank you very much and would love to come back again. Thank you.

00:29:30:09 - 00:29:33:03
Alison
Thank you.

00:29:33:05 - 00:29:45:19
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Carolin Taubensee, Executive Director of Marketing Communications at APTN. They discuss preserving Indigenous languages, how marketers can reach these diverse communities, and opening doors for the Indigenous worldwide.

00:00:03 - 00:00:07
Speaker 1
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast,

00:00:07 - 00:00:17
where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.

00:00:17 - 00:00:21

With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:24 - 00:01:00
Alison
With challenges in the industry's quest for inclusivity and representation. Marketers really need to navigate the journey of aligning brand narratives with the profound cultural heritage of indigenous communities. In this episode, I'm honoured to have a conversation with Carolin Taubensee, Executive Director of Marketing and Communications at APTN. APTN is the first national indigenous broadcaster in the world, and it's an organization that's not only carving out a critical space for indigenous voices in media, but also reshaping how brands can connect with this diverse and dynamic audience.

00:01:00 - 00:01:29
Alison
So today, we're going to explore the business opportunity that marketing to the indigenous population represents. And we're also going to talk about the impact of indigenous media on brand strategies and uncover the diverse demographics of indigenous communities. We'll discuss the authentic ways that brands can engage with indigenous audiences, fostering social responsibility and long term loyalty. Plus, we'll discuss the pursuit of indigenous language preservation and how this cultural cornerstone is influencing the marketing sphere.

00:01:29 - 00:01:35
Alison
Carolin, I'm absolutely thrilled to have you joining us today.

Carolin
Thank you so much, Allison. It's great to be here. 

00:01:35 - 00:01:43
Alison
Now, I want to kick things off by having you share your insights on the size of and diversity within the indigenous population in Canada.

00:01:43 - 00:02:03
Carolin
Sure. First of all, I'd just like to say that I'm coming to you today from Treaty One territory. I was born and raised in Winnipeg, first-generation Canadian from German heritage, and having worked at APTN for almost six years now, I'm happy to say that I'm an ally of the Indigenous peoples. 

00:02:04 - 00:02:29
Carolin
In terms of the learning and the understanding in terms of Indigenous communities in Canada, it's really important to know that they're not one homogeneous group. They have shared values and experiences, but there are vast differences when we consider there's over 600 distinct First Nations communities in Canada with over 70 Indigenous languages spoken.

00:02:30 - 00:02:42
Carolin
And so Indigenous people are represented by First Nations, Inuit, and Métis people. And First Nations is about 60% of the Indigenous population, Métis about 34-ish percent,

00:02:43 - 00:02:54
Carolin
and then about four or five percent for Inuit, which are largely people in the north. And in total, the population in Canada for Indigenous people is almost 2 million.

00:02:55 - 00:03:12
Carolin
It's 1.8 million, according to the last census. And that represents a total of about 5% of the population in Canada. But what's interesting in terms of going into looking at that audience and that community, is it's the fastest growing population in Canada,

00:03:13 - 00:03:23
Carolin
and it also has the youngest population, where 28% are about under 25 years old. And so as marketers, we're often trying to reach younger audiences.

00:03:24 - 00:03:44
Carolin
So it's very worthwhile noting that Indigenous people tend to be younger. And it's on average, the average age of Canadians is, you know, early 40s. Indigenous people, it's a decade younger. So quite interesting when we think about the opportunities that are out there for marketers today. 

00:03:45:07 - 00:05:08:16
Alison
Carolin, I knew that I was going to learn a lot from you today. I had no appreciation for the size of the Indigenous community in Canada. And the fact that there are 600 communities and over 70 languages spoken. I also didn't know that they were the fastest growing community within our country. So thank you so much. That was incredibly illuminating.

00:04:04 - 00:04:11
Carolin
You're welcome. It's also, I think, interesting to talk about a geographic distribution of Indigenous people as well.

00:04:12 - 00:04:29
Carolin
Only 43% live on reserve and Indigenous people, they're more likely to live in large urban centres. And so in the largest Indigenous population in a city in Canada is actually in Winnipeg with over 100,000 people.

00:04:30 - 00:04:56
Carolin
But there's large representation in Edmonton and Vancouver as well, in terms of city centre. But when you think about, on a provincial level, and you look at Ontario, the largest population of Indigenous people live in Ontario. It's almost 400,000 people. And so we really are in terms of Indigenous people spread throughout coast to coast to coast.

00:04:57 - 00:05:07
Carolin
But when you think about sort of that distribution of reserve or rural, it's a large city population and the volume is across the country.

00:05:08 - 00:05:24
Alison
Now, this multifaceted group certainly represents potential consumers for many brands and many of our listeners today. Carolin, in your experience, what are the opportunities that you see and how can marketers tailor their marketing strategy and approach to reach and resonate with Indigenous consumers?

00:05:25 - 00:05:36
Carolin
You know, it's important. I think everybody realizes that Canada is a very diverse country, and so as marketers we strive to identify with consumers. So we need to represent diversity.

00:05:37 - 00:05:56
Carolin
It's very important. And as marketers we can't get trapped into thinking what attracts me or what interests me as a consumer We really need to step into the shoes or the moccasins as the case may be into others and so that we can understand all all the different diverse communities that are in Canada,

00:05:57 - 00:06:07
Carolin
including Indigenous people. Now, when we think about it, Indigenous people consume all the same products that non-Indigenous people do. They're buying groceries,

00:06:08 - 00:06:19
Carolin
they're buying cars, they're buying houses, they're shopping in retail. And so it really is a matter of how do we associate with audiences of diverse

00:06:20 - 00:06:27
Carolin
backgrounds because they are consumers of the products that were out there, products and services that we're presenting to as marketers out there. 

00:06:28 - 00:06:39
Alison
So, with an increasing interest in diversity and inclusion, I'd love you to share some specific outcomes and success stories of brands that have forged partnerships with Indigenous media entities, like APTN.

00:06:40 - 00:06:58
Carolin
So as APTN is the world's first national indigenous broadcaster, we are able to share our stories with our voices and it's our narratives that really matter. And that's the importance of what Indigenous media brings to Canada.

00:06:59 - 00:07:17
Carolin
There are many Indigenous media out there, whether they are radio stations, whether they are digital news platforms, traditional print, television. television, and many reflect and celebrate the cultures and the languages and traditions and wisdom of Indigenous peoples.

00:07:18 - 00:07:28
Carolin
And I'm very humbled in terms of the knowledge that Indigenous people collectively have in terms of the environment, the land, water, the animals.

00:07:29 - 00:07:43
Carolin
They're such important aspects in terms of our overall environment. And so-- I think that when we go into working with Indigenous media as marketers that are out there,

00:07:44 - 00:07:58
Carolin
they're connecting with that community directly and showing that support and that relationship. And so I think that's a very important aspect of looking at marketing and how do we connect.

00:07:59 - 00:08:09
Alison
So how can brands demonstrate a genuine commitment to social responsibility when marketing in Indigenous spaces and ensuring that they're not falling into a performative allyship? 

00:08:10 - 00:08:23
Carolin
I think the important thing here is for marketers to, as individuals, to take the time to learn and understand about different communities, including Indigenous peoples. There's a great course, the online course,

00:08:24 - 00:08:37
Carolin
that the University of Alberta offers for free, and it's called Indigenous Canada, and it's great knowledge in terms of understanding the history and the perspectives of Indigenous people.

00:08:38: - 00:08:50
Carolin
And so, as individuals, as marketers, I think it's important to put yourself in terms of learning about the communities and being sensitive in terms of ceremony,

00:08:51 - 00:09:06
Carolin
spirituality. It's important not to just utilize traditional images in our marketing. It can be that there are people that are represented just in terms of diverse communities,

00:09:07 - 00:09:19
Carolin
people of colour and so forth that they're integrated into advertising. But it's important to really learn about the communities and not, you know, utilize something that could be quite sensitive,

00:09:20 - 00:09:25
Carolin
especially as it relates to culture and ceremony and spirituality. 

00:09:26 - 00:09:34
Alison
So, Carolin, I'd love you to share some of the ways the indigenous community has shown appreciation or reciprocated when brands engage with them authentically and respectfully.

00:09:35 - 00:09:48
Carolin
A big part of Indigenous culture is really building relationships with other communities. And so when it is opened up in terms of marketers,

00:09:49 - 00:10:01
Carolin
recognizing and showing importance that they want a relationship with Indigenous people is a cultural thing to be able to reciprocate that.

00:10:02 - 00:10:29
Carolin
And looking at shared values is very important in terms of what is important to Indigenous people. And so looking at those aspects of relationship-building is a big part of being able to share and identify potentially with marketers that recognize and the values and the importance of Indigenous peoples

00:10:30 - 00:10:46
Carolin
as a whole and being very respectful in terms of Indigenous people. So that just is sort of, you know, the full circle of building respect and relationships, is a big part of what makes sense and what's important to Indigenous people.

00:10:47 - 00:10:59
Alison
Now, Carolin, with APTN's initiative towards Indigenous language preservation, what role do you think media plays in cultural sustainability? And how should brands align with these efforts for meaningful engagement?

00:11:00 - 00:11:10
Carolin
I was mentioning earlier that there's over seventy Indigenous languages in Canada, and some of them are at high risk of being lost. And when languages are lost,

00:11:11 - 00:11:22
Carolin
culture is lost. And so one of the things that APTN is working through and has for a while is providing content that is in language.

00:11:23 - 00:11:35
Carolin
For so long, Indigenous people were not even able to speak their language. But we've come to a place where finally there's the respect that is out there in terms of enabling those languages to be spoken.

00:11:36 - 00:11:47
Carolin
And so it's really important in terms of the role that APTN plays in providing content that is in a variety of languages. languages so that people can hear,

O0:11:48 - 00:12:03
Carolin
get a sense of pride, and rebuild and reclaim those languages again. And so if there are marketers that are out there, that can help us achieve our goals collectively for the betterment of our communities,

00:12:04 - 00:12:19
Carolin
then that would be so valuable in terms of meaningful engagement, and moving forward in terms of reconciliation. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission came out with a number of calls to action.

00:12:20 - 00:12:32
Carolin
Number 92 in particular is really calling on corporate Canada to build the relationships and enable Indigenous people in terms of access,

00:12:33 - 00:12:51
Carolin
whether that's jobs, education, whether it's learning and educating themselves on history and the legacy of residential schools. And so when we look at how do we challenge and what can organizations do in terms of achieving reconciliation,

00:12:52 - 00:13:19
Carolin
that's an important part of it. And then even APTN has been called upon in terms of the call to action number 85. And how we support reconciliation together is being that leader in programming, and the culture, and being able to share those languages and help reclaim them again and build strength back up in the community to speak the languages that is such a strong representation of culture.

00:13:20 - 00:13:39
Alison
Carolin, thank you so much. Now you've got an enviable job, you've got an outstanding career. So I'd love to close our discussion today by having you share one piece of advice for our listeners. It's a marketing audience, and I know they would benefit from some marketing advice and something you'd like to share with them.

00:13:40 - 00:13:48
Carolin
You know, I started my career over 35 years ago. I was a media planner buyer at an ad agency and I've come full circle now sitting sort of at the media side,

00:13:49 - 00:13:59
Carolin
within the media industry. And I would just say that what's important is knowing that media is an art and a science. We look at all the metrics.

00:14:00 - 00:14:11
Carolin
Digital provides us so many metrics in terms of performance of marketing and advertising, and that's important. But it's also important to recognize the art side of it.

00:14:12 - 00:14:29
Carolin
And intuitively, stepping out of the numbers and being able to identify communities, audiences, that may not always sort of meet the standards of the largest audience or impressions and those sorts of things.

00:14:30 - 00:14:47
Carolin
And so my advice for young marketers is to recognize the art and the science of media and looking at numbers, but building in sort of those intuitive understandings of communities and what might be important to step outside of just the plain numbers themselves.

00:14:48 - 00:15:16
Alison
That's great advice, Carolin. It's certainly very applicable to the media aspect of the marketing profession. I would say it's also very applicable across all aspects of the marketing profession. So it's a great note to end on. And I really want to thank you for being my guest today and sharing some really important insights into how marketers can resonate with and engage with our Indigenous community.

00:15:11 - 00:15:18
Carolin
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure to be able to talk about this today. 

00:15:19 - 00:15:32

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Caroline Gianias, President of Radio Connects. Alison and Caroline explore how changing media habits, the merging of traditional and digital mediums, and multicultural diversity unite to create new opportunities for marketers in Canada.

00:00:03:06 - 00:00:22:11
Speaker 1
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business themes. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:13 - 00:00:52:18
Alison
With the media landscape evolving so rapidly, Canada's media industry is very much at a turning point, stirring a vital conversation on the media's direction in our country. From the changing media habits of Canadians, streaming and increased digital advertising, to the consolidation of newsrooms, understanding these shifts is absolutely crucial for crafting media plans and messages that resonate. Marketers need to stay agile and informed, since adapting to these dynamic shifts is now more crucial than ever.

00:00:52:19 - 00:01:14:22
Alison
To guide us through this pivotal time, I am absolutely thrilled to have Caroline Gianias, President of Radio Connects, join us today. Caroline is a highly regarded media expert who has worked with local and global clients across every major advertising category. In addition to her role at Radio Connects, Caroline also is the vice president of the World Radio Alliance and chairs the CMA's Media Council.

00:01:15:04 - 00:01:29:17
Alison
Today we delve into how massive shifts in media habits, merging digital with traditional mediums, and Canada's rich cultural diversity create a realm of possibilities for marketers everywhere. Welcome, Caroline. It's really great to have you with me today.

00:01:29:19 - 00:01:35:05
Caroline
Thanks, Alison. It's a pleasure to be here. Hope I have some good insights to share on this lofty topic.

00:01:35:07 - 00:01:46:14
Alison
So to kick things off, I would love to hear how the evolving demographics and cultural diversity within Canada are influencing media consumption habits and advertisers' approach to segmentation.

00:01:46:18 - 00:02:14:13
Caroline
Canada is such a big country. I mean, we're six time zones spread across a massive landscape, with cultural differences, we've got regional differences. We have two official languages, and on top of that, we're layered with this very rich and diverse cultural experience of new Canadians, and what it means to be a new Canadian, as well as just the changing technology that's having an impact on media consumption.

00:02:14:13 - 00:02:43:16
Caroline
So it's a really big question and something that I'm sure advertisers are faced with every day in trying to solve their business challenges and using media as a part of that. Really, the disruption to media consumption has largely been led by technology and the fact that digitization of media, the fact that we're carrying around in our palms, the most powerful computer you could possibly have, that just opens a world of possibilities in terms of consumption.

00:02:43:18 - 00:03:20:05
Caroline
So, you know, all it contributes to is just making that media consumption more fragmented, really. And so how do marketers connect with all of those different touchpoints? Right. That's the big challenge. I mean, the reality of 40 million people is that 80% of us are still living within, you know, 200 kilometres of the United States. Right. So this whole fragmentation of media and media consumption, I mean, a lot of it is still media and cultural influences, political influences, certainly economic influences that are all coming from south of the border.

00:03:20:07 - 00:03:48:23
Caroline
And, you know, for Canada, the challenge in that is how do marketers, especially in global brands, maintain the fact that Canada is a unique and diverse marketplace separate from the United States and we're not the 51st state? And what applies in the United States? While yeah, there'll be similarities, but it still needs to be adapted because, you know, in Canada we have our own media consumption habits that are different and are regionally different as well.

00:03:48:23 - 00:04:18:23
Caroline
And we have two official languages and I think a lot of the times when advertisers are so focused on what does it mean to be multicultural and support new Canadians and the ethnicity and diversity of Canada? Are we in fact ignoring a very big percent of Canada's population that's living in Quebec? That aren't even being addressed? What are we doing to include Quebec in those conversations, which I think often get left off the table when we're talking about Canada being a diverse and multicultural population?

00:04:19:01 - 00:04:38:15
Caroline
Oftentimes, they're not even included in the advertiser's plans. So if we're looking at prioritizing ethnicity, cultural diversity, how do we do that beyond English and French in Canada? And are we even doing the right job in English or French in Canada? Right. So it becomes a very complex question.

00:04:38:17 - 00:05:05:10
Alison
And it can be very easy to be sitting on the other side of the border looking at Canada and seeing how we're alike and really underestimating the crucial and sometimes subtle differences that make marketing in Canada truly unique. In your viewpoint, are the media measurement tools that are available today agile enough to capture the multicultural consumption patterns that are currently happening in Canada, and to do it an accurate way?
 
00:05:05:12 - 00:05:28:02
Caroline
Yeah, it's challenging because, you know, the question always comes down to with measurement, what are you measuring? Are you measuring for insight to improve business outcomes based on understanding consumer, based on understanding media habits? Or are you measuring for currency to transact to purchase that media? So, you know, the two of them, they're very different things and they don't necessarily, are not approached in the same way.

00:05:28:04 - 00:05:51:20
Caroline
Certainly when we're measuring for currency in Canada, we have Numeris. Right. And we have Radio Counts that supports on the radio measurements and they use very disciplined approach. It's, you know, using panels, it's looking at census data, it's extrapolating to population. Of course, in Canada with privacy, we don't speak to ethnicity, we don't speak to other than understanding in terms of the panels of languages spoken at home.

00:05:51:22 - 00:06:16:05
Caroline
But we don't dissect in terms of, you know, am I speaking to a South Asian community? If I am speaking to a South Asian community, what does that look like within the association communities that look on many different looks as well? And quite frankly, there's just not enough people in the country, believe it or not, that we can actually subgroup those into into certain measurement segments and start saying, well, yes, I'm using media to currency against this particular segment.

00:06:16:07 - 00:06:39:09
Caroline
There's just, it's difficult to do that and it's difficult to get around that with privacy. I think you can do that digitally by creating, you know, scenarios of that if people are consuming this content that they're likely from this aspect of a community or certain ethnic group. And that seems easy to do. But I guess the question comes down to what are you going to do with that measurement once you get it?

00:06:39:11 - 00:07:06:15
Caroline
How are you going to use that insight to inform your executions? What are you doing to make that a better user experience? If you're delivering content against that community or that language, is it in the right context? Are you using the right methodology to convey the message? Are you, you know, is it reflecting their communities? So once you start asking questions if you're measuring against certain things, it's like, what are you measuring?

00:07:06:16 - 00:07:29:11
Caroline
How are you measuring it? And what are you going to do with the insight you get with that measurement? And I think in Canada, fundamentally too, it's it's expense sieve to measure. It's very expensive to measure. And the question always becomes who's paying for that measurement? You know, are the advertisers paying for it? Are the agencies paying for it? Are the broadcasters in Canada, the private broadcasters and the CBC?

00:07:29:11 - 00:07:59:18
Caroline
Are they paying for that? Because if you look at some of the vertical tech companies, they are measuring their own users. But, you know, they're all now putting that behind walled gardens, right? You can't necessarily get to that first party data that they're collecting about their user groups. So it's a very difficult question. And I think the challenge also becomes is, as soon as you establish the parameters of measurement, the goalpost has moved in terms of what we're measuring, what technology we're measuring, and it's constantly evolving.

00:07:59:18 - 00:08:21:17
Caroline
So it seems like the measurement is always behind the consumption because people are moving so quickly to adopt two different things. And once you find a way to measure it, they've moved on to something else. But I will say that I don't think from the broadcast perspective in the traditional measurement, if you will, that we give enough credit in terms of some of the solutions.

00:08:21:19 - 00:08:44:11
Caroline
You know, I do have a lot of exposure to global media owners in the broadcast space, and they look to Canada as, you guys are measuring streaming of over the air broadcast, you're measuring, you're using panels, you're looking at different time zones, like we are actually quite advanced in terms of how some measurement is being done. Yet we in Canada don't give ourselves enough credit.

00:08:44:13 - 00:08:53:22
Caroline
You know, actually being at the foreground in some of those measurements that we've done and we actually have. But I don't think we give ourselves enough credit sometimes.

00:08:54:00 - 00:08:59:01
Alison
I think that's true of Canadians on a number of different levels. So I appreciate you shouting that out.

00:08:59:03 - 00:09:00:00
Alison
I also want to point out

00:09:00:05 - 00:09:21:17
Alison
Something you talked about earlier. We have a lot of listeners and members that are part of multinational businesses and representing the brand in Canada. So what strategy should multinational marketers employ to harness the full potential of the Canadian media scene? And it would be great to hear what makes Canada unique and why should media investment here be more of a priority?

00:09:21:17 - 00:09:30:06
Alison
Because as I mentioned earlier, it's easy to you're sitting in the States in particular to look across the border and see how we're alike and underestimate the important differences we have.

00:09:30:08 - 00:09:55:23
Caroline
The challenges is to ensure that the budgets reflect the job at hand, especially in certain categories. Canada, the media has to work so much harder because the trade dollars relative to what some advertisers are putting in the marketing budget to support their trade initiatives is certainly less than what it is in other markets. So our media has to work that much harder to support trade activity.

00:09:55:23 - 00:10:14:14
Caroline
So I think, it's really the challenge has always been, you know, the budget for Canada shouldn't just be a default to it's X percent of what you're doing in the United States. That's, you know, you can't do that because our media budgets have to work harder in terms of connecting with Canadians. We have that fragmentation to deal with.

00:10:14:16 - 00:10:41:14
Caroline
We have dual languages to start off before we even talk about doing any kind of ethnic centric or ethnic media placement. We have to address that. We have two official languages, two media ecosystems that support English and French. So that needs to have a seat at the table to have those discussions, because don't just automatically assume it's the budget to satisfy Canada is a percent of the US budget.

00:10:41:16 - 00:11:16:16
Caroline
You have to look at what the business challenges are, what the media ecosystem looks like and what it's going to do to get that job done. And it will involve a percentage of English in Canada, and that's just a reality. You can't ignore the Quebec market, as a lot of marketers will tend to do. And I think the other thing is to look at the fact of the role of different media has, even in a world of multiculturalism and new Canadians coming into Canada. At what point do marketers sit back and say, you're no longer new Canadian when? You've been here five years, three years, ten years, 20 years?

00:11:16:18 - 00:11:38:21
Caroline
Are we talking about new Canadians and what's the business objective to meet new Canadians? It might be completely different. You know, there's not just media challenges that we have with trying to meet new Canadians or a diverse multicultural community. It's the expectations of the services that they're going to be getting. You know, a lot of sticker shock when people come to Canada, right?

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:58:06
Caroline
It's like you think the land of milk and honey, and it's really expensive cell phone plans. It's, you know, cost of living is really high. Cost of rent and ownership and all sorts of things are really high. And eventually those things do play into media usage because, you know, you're not going to have that many streaming services because they're expensive.

00:11:58:06 - 00:12:26:16
Caroline
And you know local media may become the touchpoint because it's free for the most part, right? You can get in and listen to radio anywhere, any time. You don't have to pay for that service. With basic cable, you can turn on TV and find out what's happening. And so I think the challenge for multinational marketers is really to understand what the Canadian landscape looks like and the fact that it's English and it's French, and that just looking at a percent of the US budget isn't just going to get the job done.

00:12:26:16 - 00:12:33:22
Caroline
You've got to really understand what it is you need to achieve. And the cost of media in Canada, it's not it's not cheap, right? It's not cheap.

00:12:34:00 - 00:12:47:05
Alison
With the rise of streaming platforms and consumers shift to new media habits, what are the key strategies that traditional radio broadcasters and media platforms in Canada are implementing to remain relevant and competitive?

00:12:47:07 - 00:13:09:18
Caroline
Well, you know, it's interesting. I think, you know, people think streaming, and I'll talk to the audio space because obviously it's where I'm immersed in the most is that I think there's a real disconnect in terms of understanding what that actually means, because really in terms of audio, what's happening in that streaming landscape, is that really streaming is a replacement of our personal music libraries, right?

00:13:09:20 - 00:13:29:17
Caroline
You know, unless you're a real audiophile and, you know, my 30 year old, 31 year old son is, he has LPs, is that most people, I would say most people, a selection of Canadians are choosing to rent their music libraries versus owning their music libraries. Right. And that's giving the rise to what we're seeing in terms of streaming.

00:13:29:18 - 00:13:52:10
Caroline
Because previously when we would look at, you know, album sales, to determine, you know, the top, CHUM's top list, right? It's how many records sold, you know, what the radio stations were playing and now it's coming down to streaming because we could physically count that now, whereas before we weren't. So all that personal music time being spent with physical is now being streamed.

00:13:52:12 - 00:14:22:21
Caroline
But it's not a new phenomenon quite frankly. Personal music has always been in existence. It's just now that it's being streamed on a device as opposed to being played on your record player or your MP3 player or your boombox. So I think there is a a sense of certainly with people in the industry who think that Canadians aren't listening to terrestrial radio anymore because they're streaming, when in actual fact, you know, the reach of radio has been pretty consistent forever.

00:14:22:23 - 00:14:49:19
Caroline
And most of the streaming that's being done by those Canadians who are streaming is largely noncommercial. It's to their personal music libraries. Because if you actually look at the free online music streaming services or you look at even podcasting, like collectively the two of them, I think what podcasting is maybe 29%, and free music streaming is like maybe 8% of all of the audio listening out there.

00:14:50:00 - 00:15:30:11
Caroline
Whereas like radio, if you look at PPM, it's at 84%. That's a very big difference. And even when you compare it to the Amazon Prime, the Apple Music, YouTube, it's, you're still looking at terrestrial radio being one and a half, two times greater in terms of reach of any of those platforms. So, you know, I think the adaptation that broadcasters are have, is that it's more so that Canadian to really rediscovering the fact that radio was the original mobile medium, right, the transistor radio, and now you've got it on your phone. So your phone has become your transistor radio and so people are able to take that that radio experience with them wherever they're going

00:15:30:13 - 00:15:54:09
Caroline
because it's a different experience, right? People lean into radio, they're connecting and want to know what's going on in the community. And the further out you get from the major urban centres, the more important those connections become to local community. And I think that's true whether you're new Canadian, who wants to connect with their new environment, they're learning the language, they're consuming, you know, television and radio because they're improving their English.

00:15:54:11 - 00:16:19:23
Caroline
So I think, you know, the fact is that we in the industry, I think, have a different perception because we tend to be bigger streamers in general. We tend to have more streaming subscriptions than the average Canadian. We tend to spend more time with streaming and on demand platforms than average Canadians. And I think that often colours our perception of what consumers are doing.

00:16:20:01 - 00:16:41:21
Caroline
And I go back to, ThinkTV did a great survey with Ipsos and it kind of level sets those of us who work in marketing, those who work in advertising, think about what Canadians are doing and there's such a difference in terms of what our perceptions of media consumption of the average Canadian is our own consumption versus what we think they're doing.

00:16:41:21 - 00:17:07:00
Caroline
And you see such a disconnect. And I think the challenge for marketers and those advising their clients is, we're not the average consumer, we're not the average media consumption either. And so we really need to kind of take a step back and really focus on, you know, what Joe or Jill or, you know, average consumer X is doing relative to what we're doing because we're not like everybody else.

00:17:07:02 - 00:17:26:15
Caroline
And we need to remember that when we're developing our advertising strategies, our behaviours, our consumption should never be the baseline of what we're doing. And insights, information, data points about average consumers and their consumer journey should always be the focus point because it's so different from ours.

00:17:26:17 - 00:17:38:01
Alison
That's such an important reminder that you've given us, Caroline, to not assume that how we engage with media, how we live our lives, it's usually fundamentally different from the quote unquote average Canadian.

00:17:38:03 - 00:17:39:10
Caroline
Hugely different.

00:17:39:12 - 00:17:46:03
Alison
Well, your stat around 84% of radio is probably a surprising stat for a lot of our listeners as well.

00:17:46:05 - 00:18:07:22
Caroline
I think it is. And I think that they forget, you know, especially I think another interesting thing is that those of us who work in urban centres, even, you know, post-COVID, we did a survey not too long ago with Signal Hills through Maru Canada, just asking people, you know, who were in vehicles yesterday, because obviously radio is a very important part of the consumer journey in car.

00:18:08:00 - 00:18:41:00
Caroline
And, you know, on average, 44% of Canadians were in vehicles yesterday versus 6% were in transit. So the reality is Canadians are very much car drivers and vehicle drivers as opposed to transit takers. And if you're trying to connect with consumers on the last mile about the purchase, being in the car is a big part of that. Right. And once you strip out all the noise of where you can actually meet a consumer with an ad message, like radio's 92% of that, because muscle memory, you get in your car and you turn it on. The radio comes on automatically, right?

00:18:41:05 - 00:19:05:21
Caroline
Even in connected cars, whether you're an Android or Wi-Fi, Apple CarPlay, any of those different technologies, the time spent with ad supported or the amount of people listening to ad supported radio, the numbers are consistent it's above 90%, whether you have Android auto in the car or not because that connection to live radio, it's a leaned in experience and people rely on it.

00:19:05:23 - 00:19:23:18
Caroline
And I think those of us in marketing who are not in cars, who rely on transit and think that everybody connects to their apps the minute they get in the car, that's you know, that's just not the reality out there. Right. And that's a big audience that we're missing if we're not focused on that.

00:19:23:20 - 00:19:38:23
Alison
That's a great point. I'm sure some of our listeners are wondering if there's a demographic part of radio listening. Have you noticed in any of your research whether our younger Canadians as engaged with radio as we might be?

00:19:39:01 - 00:19:56:01
Caroline
Well, you know, it's funny, we did just look at some research recently, and nobody wants to hear this, but the older you get, the more you consume. That's surprising. I remember I was at an agency thing not too long ago and I did have to counsel, I hate to tell you this, but you do turn into your parents as you get older.

00:19:56:03 - 00:20:15:09 
Caroline
You know, when you start when you move along from being a party of one, hopping on the subway or working remotely, to suddenly being in a car, driving through the drive through because, you know, doing school run and you got to run out for groceries or you ran out of milk, you know, not everything comes by a delivery service.

00:20:15:11 - 00:20:46:18
Caroline
Uber eats or, you know, your grocery runs to your door. And, you know, radio does connect with more people as your life stages change. But I think, you know, it's interesting, I think people are surprised that even when you look at the younger demographics of 18 to 34 and you compare that with some of the digital platforms like Facebook and YouTube and, radio still connects with more of them than connects with YouTube or Facebook or TikTok or Instagram.

00:20:46:19 - 00:21:04:04
Caroline
When it comes to 18 to 34s, like the reach of radio is still higher than those other media, which I think is surprising to a lot of people. The younger you are, the more exposure to radio, the more likely you are to have or to take some sort of action after hearing an ad, which we know is pretty surprising for people as well.

00:21:04:06 - 00:21:08:13
Caroline
You know, but that came out in a recent study, and all of this is available on our Radio Connects website.

00:21:08:15 - 00:21:19:07
Alison
Caroline, this has been wonderful conversation. I know you've got a busy day ahead, but before I close off our discussion, I would love to have you share one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners.

00:21:19:09 - 00:21:36:16
Caroline
I guess it goes back to the we in the industry, we're a unique breed and our media behaviours are not like everyone else's. And I think we, as as you go through the media journey in the consumer journey and, you're looking to if I'm going to spend $1 an hour in media, where am I going to spend it?

00:21:36:18 - 00:21:58:02
Caroline
You know, go back to the the business challenge at hand. Look at the consumer journey, not your media journey, but the consumer journey of the person that you're trying to connect with and ensure that you've covered all the touch points that are the most relevant and that the messaging you're delivering, it's in a context that makes sense for the person receiving the message.

00:21:58:04 - 00:22:23:03
Caroline
Because I think, Canada, we're a vast landscape, fragmented media universe, media has its challenges in our marketplace to connect with English, French, multicultural, and it's always hard to determine where to spend that first dollar. So always go back to what the business challenge is at hand and what's the most effective medium you can use to resolve those business challenges.

00:22:23:05 - 00:22:33:23
Alison
Great advice. Caroline, thank you so much for your time today and for a  really great, insightful conversation.

00:22:34:01 - 00:22:45:18
Speaker 1
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Raja Rajamannar, Chief Marketing and Communications Officer and President of Healthcare for Mastercard and author of Quantum Marketing. Alison and Raja delve into mastering time management, key trends in this golden age of marketing, inclusive design and the skills marketers need to future-proof the profession.

00:00:03:06 - 00:00:32:22
Unknown
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business themes. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 

Alison
If you listened to our earlier episode with our board chair, Kerri Dawson, you absolutely know that future proofing the marketing profession is a top priority for the Canadian Marketing Association.

00:00:33:00 - 00:01:03:23
Alison
We're very focused on helping marketers understand and manage the tectonic shifts that will fundamentally change how brands and businesses are built tomorrow, while also ensuring they're delivering on today's business needs. Today's guest is ideally suited to help us future proof marketing. Here's what he had to say about the current reality for marketers. "This era is driven by exponential disruptions, good and bad, in consumers' lives caused by a deluge of emerging technologies. And the resulting changes in the consumer landscape

00:01:04:01 - 00:01:34:03
Alison
call for marketers to tap into the dynamics of the new paradigm and reinvent their entire approach." So it's my pleasure to welcome Raja Rajamannar to our podcast today. He's the Global Chief Marketing and Communications Officer and also the President of Health Care for MasterCard. Now, that would be more than enough to keep most of us busy. But Raja somehow found time to also write Quantum Marketing, which is a Wall Street Journal bestseller and must read for every marketer focused on the future.

00:01:34:05 - 00:01:58:13
Alison
Raja is renowned for innovating for some of the world's top brands and businesses, and he's been recognized with many awards throughout his career. A few recent ones include Business Insider's twenty five most innovative CMO's in the world, WFA Global Marketer of the Year, Forbes Top five World's most influential CMO's, and the Campaign Power 100. Raja, thanks so much for joining us today.

00:01:58:15 - 00:02:23:14
Raja
Thank you for having me here Alison. Much appreciated. 

Alison
Now, I'm actually not going to start with the marketing question. When I think about your massive dual global mandate at MasterCard plus your different board roles and the fact that you found time to write a book, it's abundantly clear that you've mastered time management. So please let us know how you prioritize and determine where to focus your time to drive the greatest impact.

00:02:23:16 - 00:02:51:14
Raja
The first thing is, I start with the premise that you cannot manage time. You manage yourself not the time. And time just keeps going on, right. You cannot bend it, cannot stop it. You cannot accelerate it. The key thing is, as one of the authors has written beautifully, the title of the book is 4000 Weeks. That's all our full life typically is, about eighty years.

00:02:51:16 - 00:03:19:18
Raja
And in that kind of a 4000 week timeframe, you need to be crystal clear on what you really want to spend each one of those precious weeks. You can while away time on social media, endlessly scrolling, and that can actually keep you busy and entertained and occupied for a few hours every day? Or you can choose to educate yourself how to spend time and build relationships with people or write books or do something for the community.

00:03:19:19 - 00:03:43:05
Raja
It's all up to you. So the first thing is, what do you want to focus on? Where do you want to put your efforts? So that's number one. Secondly, I would say that there are a lot of things that we'd like to do, but we don't have to do ourselves. You can delegate effectively both in your work situation as well as in your personal situation.

00:03:43:07 - 00:04:03:11
Raja
So, for example, there are a lot of people I know who are very hesitant to give access to their emails, to their assistants, or to their chiefs of staff. But if you give access to them, they can make your life so much more easier because they scroll through everything that is unnecessary that doesn't have to take up your time.

00:04:03:17 - 00:04:24:23
Raja
But you need to have confidence in yourself to say, Look, there is nothing there that is hidden that will come to bite me back. So long as you're open, operating with an open kimono, that's fantastic. So I think there are some work related work, as I would say, is not just work at the business context, but work in the personal life as well that you should be having to delegate.

00:04:25:01 - 00:04:47:02
Raja
That's number two. So don't be everything yourself. You can't just do everything yourself. And there's so many things that you would like to do. Number three, I would say, is that you need to be really conscious of not wasting time on things that don't matter. A lot of times we sort of get... I'll give you a beautiful example, the CEO of MasterCard.

00:04:47:05 - 00:05:11:00 
Raja
Right, the current CEO or the previous CEO too. So I'll talk about current CEO, Michael Miebach. He says okay, I'll have a 15 minute monthly meeting with you. That's all that I have with him. Fifteen minutes on a monthly basis. But those are power bank 15 minutes and I don't have... And the fact that I know that is only 15 minutes, I prepare myself extremely well,

00:05:11:02 - 00:05:30:03
Raja
the key points, and not be anxious to sort of keep filling up the time, with all kinds of things and to update him about everything that I'm doing. The point is you do that exactly the thing with your team members, with your colleagues, with vendors. People are hungry for your time, but you should realize that this is your time.

00:05:30:05 - 00:05:58:14
Raja
You have to manage yourself, and your schedule, and your meetings based on your time. So now things like this, maybe actually one day I should write a book on this. That's a good idea. Thank you. Something useful for me from this podcast already. 

Alison
I would definitely read that book and I know many of our listeners would as well. That's such great perspective, especially investing in communities and relationships, there's so many studies around what makes for a rich life and a long life.

00:05:58:14 - 00:06:34:21
Alison
and those are absolutely core to that. 

Raja
And in fact, if I can just start one point, in terms of productivity, I find that meditation is one of the best productivity tools. It increases your focus. It increases your clarity of thinking. And somehow you can become much more creative to come to solutions. And I find that that is an incredible way to manage your time, because even, for example, for somebody who is traveling around in various timezones, jet lag is a reality that you have to deal with.

00:06:34:23 - 00:06:55:01
Raja
Meditation actually helps you to relax, to get your body reset. And then all the focus and creativity and everything really is at a peak. And I say that that's something which is to be wholeheartedly embraced by people who are looking for productivity tools. Many people look at meditation, God, I have to spend half an hour or 15 minutes on meditation.

00:06:55:01 - 00:07:17:17
Raja
I don't have time. But actually, meditation makes time for other things for you because you do things more efficiently. 

Alison
I've tried to meditate before. I'm a morning runner, so that's become my form of meditation. But you've given me pause and I will absolutely try meditation again. Now, Raja, you kicked off the year on a really inspiring note with a LinkedIn post that highlighted that this in many ways is the golden age of marketing.

00:07:17:18 - 00:07:43:09
Alison 
You also acknowledge that classical marketers have lost a lot of ground in recent years, and you now see tremendous opportunity for marketers to reclaim their territory in 2024, which is absolutely music to our audience ears. So what trends would you say are making this year the start of the golden age of marketing? 

Raja
There are multiple things. So firstly, if you look at the technologies that are very, very groundbreaking, right?

00:07:43:09 - 00:08:12:02
Raja
In the past you had Internet, you had mobile, you had social platforms. Each one of these or a television or radio, they are all significant technological innovations that disrupted people's lives completely, transformed. And made them into a very, completely different kind of thing. For example, if you look at the pre 1996 era and post 1996 era, when you look back you say how could I have even lived without Internet before?

00:08:12:04 - 00:08:36:07
Raja
Right? Internet has changed our lives dramatically and that opens up opportunities for marketing where you say, Hey, now I can reach consumers directly in real time, almost 1 to 1. I can be precise in my targeting. I can be very accurate in my measurements and so on. And that's how digital marketing was born. Same thing happened when mobile and social media came in 2007.

00:08:36:09 - 00:09:01:07
Raja
The point is, today, unlike the previous paradigms of marketing, there are 24 new groundbreaking technologies that are coming up. Whether it is AI, or it is augmented reality, virtual reality, blockchains, 3D printing, 5G telecommunications. Already 6G is coming. It's around the corner. There are so many things that are actually happening at the space and proper technology perspective.

00:09:01:09 - 00:09:43:15
Raja
Each of these technologies is independently capable of disrupting people's lives and businesses. The confluence of these 24 technologies is going to result in an unprecedented level of disruption. We haven't seen it yet. That's one part of it. But why is it good for marketing? Technology is a great leveller of the competitive field. In the past you had to be a big company with deep pockets to be able to invest in technology. Today, even if you are a tiny company with very modest marketing budgets, you can still access exactly the same technologies that a very large company is able to use. For $20 a month

00:09:43:15 - 00:10:21:11
Raja
you can actually access the likes of ChatGPT, which are very powerful from a marketing perspective, probably we can discuss about that. So what happens to that kind of a context is that we have to realize that technology is going to be available to everyone. So you cannot distinguish and differentiate yourself based on technology anymore. Same is true for data, but the data privacy and regulations on one side and extreme collection of data on the other side, there is going to be a lot of anonymized and tokenized data that will be available for marketers across all industries and all companies large and small.

00:10:21:12 - 00:10:53:17
Raja
If that is the case, what is going to distinguish one company from another company is its creativity and innovation. That's where marketing comes in. And we as marketers can actually advantage our companies by differentiating them, making them more relevant, making them more compelling to our target audiences. And that's something which is, I think, a dream come true. So today, for example, a lot of companies, particularly on the technology side, give a lot of importance to products, and their product is superior to marketing.

00:10:53:19 - 00:11:21:11
Raja
It's ironical. When I was practicing marketing all these years, product was an integral part of marketing. It's the first P of the four Ps of marketing. But today there is a separate Chief Product Officer. There is a separate customer experience officer. So it's got fragmented. Now a product is very, very easy to replicate, particularly given the technological advancement, and the speed in terms of go to market is actually rapidly rising.

00:11:21:11 - 00:11:52:19
Raja
So with the result of which, other people can replicate your products with equivalent or better functionality in a heartbeat. So if you want long term disruption, if you want long term differentiation at a competitive advantage, you have to connect emotionally. The emotional connection is what marketing is all about. It's about emote... generate the right emotions, engage consumers in a very compelling fashion and hold them close to you as a brand.

00:11:52:19 - 00:12:15:14
Raja
That is what will give you the advantage compared to your competitors. And so marketing is going to be really the function that will drive companies. And therefore this is the golden era of marketing. 

Alison
That's so well-said and technology as a great leveller is relevant globally. It's particularly relevant in Canada because 80% of our economy is driven by small and medium sized enterprises.

00:12:15:14 - 00:12:38:12
Alison
So the fact that they can compete in a way that they haven't been able to in the past is a wonderful opportunity. Now, in looking at the tectonic shifts, do you still think the four Ps of marketing hold true? And it's more how they will be brought to light? 

Raja
I feel that the entire framework for marketing has to be changed.

00:12:38:13 - 00:13:02:12
Raja
And I had a conversation about this with my guru, who is Philip Kotler. If you think about it, the four Ps of marketing were formulated by Philip Kotler more than 60 years back. In 60 years, the world has transformed so dramatically. And that's what was the genesis of me writing this book. And I started asking myself, Are those still relevant?

00:13:02:13 - 00:13:29:08
Raja
Is it like gravity, magnetism? These are things which don't change. They are very fundamental. They are foundational. They remain all the time. But is that true for marketing, or are things changing? So if you look at every single aspect of the marketing value chain, the concepts are no longer valid, the processes are completely inaccurate, and what we are doing is totally irrelevant.

00:13:29:10 - 00:13:51:23
Raja
And I'm not saying it flippantly or just for effect. I'm saying it because I mean it. And I can tell you, let's take a couple of examples. Now, if you look at something like loyalty, the industry collectively spends about a billion, about $1,000,000,000,000 in RND every year, $1 trillion plus. There was a research report that came from BBC.

00:13:51:23 - 00:14:20:17
Raja
It was published in BBC. And when I read it, what I found was that the research said it was being done amongst people who are either in a marriage or they were in a live-in  relationship. They asked them, How many of you have cheated on your partners? And the number was an astounding 70%. And a further 15% said that if they are sure they will not get caught, they don't mind straying.

00:14:20:19 - 00:14:49:02
Raja
Now, I'm not here to make any value judgment, but when I think about it, I say, look, if 85% of the people who have made some kind of formal commitment already, or informal or implied commitment, and they know that the consequences are terrible if they are caught, still, they're not hardwired for loyalty. If in real life and on far more important things that people are not hardwired for loyalty, we come as marketers and say, You'll spend $1 and each dollar you spend

00:14:49:02 - 00:15:11:07
Raja
I'll give you one point and then I'm not pretending that you are loyal to me. That is the biggest fallacy. We are kidding ourselves. And, look at anyone. Like I know, for example, if I look at myself, I have got more than five airline frequent flier program, loyalty program memberships. I've got every single hotel chain. I'm on their loyalty list.

00:15:11:09 - 00:15:41:01
Raja
Same thing with grocery chains as well, my everyday spending. I've got Costco, I've got Walmart, I've got Amazon Prime. Who am I loyal to? These are not loyalty programs. They   are actually price incentives couched in a program. Loyalty is very, very misplaced in this context. We need stickiness. We need preference. So what, in fact, I suggested is that we should have a different framework to win and keep consumers on an ongoing basis.

00:15:41:03 - 00:16:09:13
Raja
And that is what I call a preference management platform. And it should be technological driven and so on. So every area, whether you look at purchase, same thing is true. Market research. I actually started my career in market research and most recently I was chatting with the Head of Market Research and Consumer Insights at Unilever, and both of us were sort of commiserating and said the way we do market research is terrible and what you get is completely useless material and we rely on it as true.

00:16:09:15 - 00:16:32:00
Raja
The reason is consumers cannot articulate why they have done something or why they like something. They are all subconscious. By very definition, if you ask somebody why you did it, they have to post-rationalize and tell you, and they are not psychologists to begin with. So the whole aspect of marketing has to be rethought. And that's exactly what I am saying, is what quantum marketing is about.

00:16:32:02 - 00:16:49:23
Raja
And I share this with Philip Kotler, and it was so true. He had given me a note which I actually framed it and kept it in my home office because he is my guru and he is saying this is Raja actually what the future is. And what I have done is something which is which was very true for that era.

00:16:50:01 - 00:17:19:20
Raja 
But I completely agree with you. We need to reinvent ourselves, rethink marketing the concepts, the frameworks, the strategies, and therefore the tactics. 

Alison
So I'm going to jump to another emerging area that MasterCard is very much leading in, and that's around inclusive design. So you're definitely leading the charge in innovating with inclusive design. And your most recent announcement about Touch is a great example, which brings me to a few different questions, starting with what led to your focus on inclusive design and also if you could share the business case for inclusive design.

00:17:19:20 - 00:17:55:18
Alison
I know our listeners would be very interested in that. 

Raja
Yeah. Firstly, inclusive by design is not about political correctness. I think it's... It should be self evident that if somebody is in a distress and if you are in a position to help, if somebody has a problem and if it can solve that problem, genuinely and their problem might be unique than the rest of the mainstream, so to speak, if you help them, they are grateful to the solution that you have given and they stick by you and you can actually have a very profitable business proposition.

00:17:55:19 - 00:18:19:10
Raja
I keep saying that if you pursue purpose, profits will follow. They are not mutually exclusive. So what we really need to think about is how can we do things that are truly inclusive and can we make a business case for it? I'll give you one example. So when we started looking at say, you mentioned about Touch.

00:18:19:12 - 00:18:46:14
Raja
So when we started looking at how many blind people out there in the world, and how do they use their payment products today? The experience was shockingly horrible. And we said, My god, the number of blind people in this world, fully blind or partially blind, is about 2 billion. I hope that number is wrong, but that's what statistic after statistic is actually showing.

00:18:46:14 - 00:19:10:05
Raja
Assume that the number is 1 billion, it is a humungous number from just from a segment point of view. My grandmother was blind and I have a deep connection to that space, therefore, because growing up I have seen what she went through. Now, in this context, coming back to my business, which is credit cards and payments, payment cards,  prepaid cards, debit cards, small.

00:19:10:06 - 00:19:28:18
Raja
We said, how can we make it easy for a blind person to be able to use our cards? How do they know which is the front of the card, back of the card, where is the chip? Is it a debit card? Is it a credit card? Is it a MasterCard or some other card? How do they distinguish other than by putting it in a specific slot in that wallet or in their purse?

00:19:28:20 - 00:19:55:03
Raja
So we said Braille should be the solution, because everyone is supposed to read Braille. But shockingly, a very tiny percentage of people, less than 10% of people who are sight impaired know how to read Braille. So that cannot be a solution. So we started racking our brains and eventually came up with that extremely simple solution where you provide a small notch on the side of the card, the shape of the notch tells you the type of the card. The location of the notch,

00:19:55:03 - 00:20:16:20
Raja
if it is on the right side, just below the centre, you are holding the card the right way. If there is a notch, it is MasterCard. Now in one single small notch, we really came up with a comprehensive nice solution. When we launched it, what happens? It is now one of the fastest growing products that we have got. Highly profitable, already launched in 35 countries around the world.

00:20:16:22 - 00:20:42:03
Raja
So there is, the results are coming from a business perspective, but the focus was actually on trying to solve the problem in a real way. And I have received countless emails from, I thought actually, even though my grandmother was blind, somehow I associated blindness with more elderly aged people. What I saw is so many mothers of kids who are teenagers and so on.

00:20:42:05 - 00:21:02:13
Raja
They said we are so grateful for the solution because this is life changing for my child. It was unbelievable. The key thing is, it is hitting the right nerve amongst the audiences, those who are your core target audience, as well as the secondary tertiary audiences who are not blind themselves, but see the plight of the blind  people.

00:21:02:15 - 00:21:27:13
Raja
So this is something which is absolutely energizing. And when you talk of this, you know, purpose driven, that's one thing also which is very important is that attracting the right talent and keeping them at the company is very important, particularly if you are not the highest paid. And we don't want to compete on salaries or compensation. We want to compete on giving them the quality of the satisfaction of their work, right. of what they are doing.

00:21:27:15 - 00:21:53:01
Raja
When you become truly purpose driven and really put your money where your mouth is and be consistent in your commitment to the cause and that the purpose you have a higher retention level, you are able to attract all the best talent. So it really solved so many things. So when people said, I have to do something purpose and it is a work thing or it is something which is basically meant for political correctness, I would say, stop, you've got it wrong.

00:21:53:03 - 00:22:12:00
Alison
That's such a great example. I was on the board for the CNIB for six years, so I have a personal connection to it as well. But your example is also such a powerful counterpoint to the earlier conversation we had around loyalty, where the loyalty programs that we think are really building that true connection between brands and consumers are flawed.

00:22:12:06 - 00:22:49:13
Alison
What you're doing from an inclusive design and recognizing a pain point that was solved with such a brilliant and simple solution is really driving true loyalty. Now, as we look to the future of marketing, what skills are most important for marketers in managing through the tech tsunami that we're all living through?

Raja
I would say most of the top marketers, I would say, particularly the classical marketers, they're very good at psychology, sociology, design and areas like that, and the contemporary marketers are the ones who are more quantitative, analytical and they are much more left brained in their thinking.

00:22:49:15 - 00:23:16:15
Raja
What you really need is a combination of these two. So which means you need people like Leonardo da Vinci, who are not easy to come by, and if they are there, they don't want to join marketing. They want to be in Silicon Valley or investment bank or be consultants. So we've got a tough challenge on that. But basically one of the things that we have to recognize is the future is going to be with the classical marketers who train themselves and upscale themselves at all technologies, data and finances.

00:23:16:17 - 00:23:34:22
Raja
It's a little bit of going against that core grain, how to put the effort. Not to become experts in technology. So, for example, AI is coming, right? It's already upon us. People are saying AI is there, what do we do, how can we use it and stuff like that. But the fact is AI has been around for a long time.

00:23:34:22 - 00:23:57:21
Raja
And MasterCard, we have been using it for more than ten years. And they built a whole digital marketing engine using AI and automation out of Singapore, six years back, before gen AI came. Now when gen AI came, that's when the prominence of overall AI has shot up. And many times marketers mean gen AI as the real AI, but as it is just a type of AI across the board.

00:23:57:23 - 00:24:24:23
Raja
Now, the point is that if you don't know what AI is and what it can do, you get left behind very quickly. And I have seen the kind of productivity enhancements that AI can give you. It actually like, for example, in the B2B context. Okay. As an example, we have something called the RFP factory, which will respond to various RFPs that are given, sent to MasterCard. It used to take about 7 to 8 weeks before.

00:24:25:01 - 00:24:50:22
Raja
Now it takes less than what that one day. One day. It takes, it frees up resources, it standardizes your responses, makes it more accurate and current. And it really looks at all the past RFPs that you have done, takes the tone out of those, takes the creatives out of those and really composes something which is incredibly more powerful than what a human being can do today. And in less than one day.

00:24:51:00 - 00:25:13:01
Raja
So what the point is, if I am able to now do these kind of things across the entire marketing value chain, the gains can be incredible. But I talked about the digital marketing, the digital engine in Singapore that we created and now it is all around work. They're getting productivity enhancement between four and eight times. I'm not talking percentages, but I'm talking about multiples.

00:25:13:01 - 00:25:44:17
Raja
So that's huge. I can kill my competition with that kind of a productivity. Now if you are not really caught up with the latest and greatest as far as technological enablements are concerned, you'll become obsolete, you'll be left behind. So the first thing I would tell marketers is you need to understand the new technologies. At this stage in my life and in my career, I spend about 5 to 6 hours every week educating myself on something new or deepening my knowledge on a subject that I wanted to pursue deeper.

00:25:44:18 - 00:26:01:06
Raja
I think that's one thing people have to do. So skills wise, I would say learning agility today and investing time behind learning is the number one priority. 

Alison
That's such great advice and if you can find 5 hours to do it, there is no excuse for the rest of us. Now, before we go, you've been very generous with your time.

00:26:01:06 - 00:26:25:15
Alison
I'd like to have you share one piece of advice that you think marketers most need to embrace in the year ahead. 

Raja
Learning. We spoke about it. But the second thing I would also say is that from a company's point of view, any company, I have worked at multiple companies are closely tracked in my voluntary role as the president of WFA, with my peers, CMOs around the countries across various companies.

00:26:25:17 - 00:26:48:22
Raja
One of the biggest things is the C-suite in most of the companies doesn't get marketing. Whether it is a CEO, whether it is a CFO, whether it is a CIO, CHRO. Their understanding of marketing is very low. When their understanding of marketing is very low, you don't get full justice for what your team desires and they deserve, right.

00:26:49:00 - 00:27:23:09
Raja
And you have to evangelize marketing, that the evangelization of marketing becomes with educating your peers. So one of the things I would say is for the coming year, if there is one priority organizationally that people have to set for themselves, is to build close bridges between themselves and the other C-suite executives and slowly pull them into the fold of marketing, meaning, involve them in their campaign creation, do creative workshops for them. They love get doing those kind of things because in their jobs there is not a whole bunch of creativity, honestly.

00:27:23:11 - 00:27:44:14
Raja
Okay, and get them, take them to sponsorship events. Let them see the power of how your brand can be brought to life, how experiences can be curated. When you start drawing in these C-suite colleagues into the fold, what you'll see is they start embracing marketing, the start supporting marketing, then they'll start advocating for marketing. And that's a journey.

00:27:44:14 - 00:28:04:09
Raja
It doesn't happen overnight, but I think the beginning of the journey, I would say if marketers are not already doing it, it's high time that you do it. And of course I talked about learning. 

Alison
That's such great advice and and evangelizing for marketing, it's inherent in the examples you've shared that in doing that effectively, it's all around the business performance and business results

00:28:04:09 - 00:28:23:19
Alison
marketing can drive too. When you think about how to get the attention of the CEO and CFO, certainly it's got to be coming from what's in the best interests of the business and how marketing is playing a pivotal role in the success and growth of the business as well. 

Raja
Absolutely 

Alison
Well Raja, it has been an absolute delight. Thank you so much and I hope you have a wonderful day.

00:28:23:21 - 00:28:45:18
Raja
Thank you, Alison. Thank you very much for having me, and you too, have a great day. Thank you. 

Unknown
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, sits down with Cynthia Pachovski, CEO of Ipsos Canada and Daniel Bernhard, CEO of the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. Together, they dive into their recent newcomer research, highlighting the myths and realities of racial diversity, the skills and talents newcomers bring, and their role in Canada's prosperity.

00:00:00:05 - 00:00:19:13
Speaker 1
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:24:18 - 00:00:53:08
Alison
Canada, long known for our cultural diversity, has been a real beacon of hope and new beginnings for many. But beyond the warm welcomes, newcomers play an absolutely pivotal role in our nation's economic strength, as well as our demographic framework. They're more than just new faces. They're central to Canada's character and also Canada's growth. Consider this. In the last five year period, a stunning 79.9% of Canada's population growth has been attributed to immigration.

00:00:54:01 - 00:01:13:19
Alison
And it's not just about numbers. It's about the fresh perspectives and skills that they bring with them. Over half of the immigrants who have made Canada their home were economic candidates who are well-poised to help grow and advance our country. The dynamic nature of Canada's economy is very closely linked to the fresh talent and entrepreneurship that's brought in by immigrants.

00:01:14:10 - 00:01:39:07
Alison
For our business community and marketers, it's clear. Embracing diversity and innovation of our newest Canadians is key to our country's prosperity. In this episode, I'm thrilled to be joined by Cynthia Pachovski, CEO of Ipsos and Daniel Bernhard, CEO for the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. Ipsos and the Institute for Canadian Citizenship have joined forces to conduct a very robust research study on newcomers to Canada.

00:01:40:01 - 00:02:01:13
Alison
In this discussion, we're going to explore the intriguing research findings that not only reveal the substantial contributions that newcomers bring to Canada's growth, but also some of the challenges that they face and the insights that can help revolutionize how we as marketers and citizens connect with and support this dynamic demographic. So welcome, Cynthia and Daniel.

00:02:01:23 - 00:02:02:16
Daniel
Thanks for having me.

00:02:03:05 - 00:02:03:20
Cynthia
Hello. Hi.

00:02:04:12 - 00:02:15:07
Alison
So I'd like to start by having you share how newcomers contribute to Canada's population and economic growth. It would also be great to hear what impact the recent policy changes may have on these contributions.

00:02:15:21 - 00:02:38:23
Daniel
Immigrants are, as you know, essential to Canada's future. But actually, I want to also talk before I do that about Canada's past. Canada's been an immigrant nation since that since the very beginning, before Europeans came here, there was lots of migration among Indigenous people from place to place, traveling and having to integrate into communities where they would arrive and abide by those laws. Afterwards were welcomed,

00:02:38:23 - 00:02:59:13
Daniel
Europeans were welcomed here by Indigenous people, and the idea of Canada perpetually has been that there's more than enough to go around. It's a bountiful land and that you can come here and not be a renter, so to speak, but an owner of our society, not just a resident but a citizen. It's one of the things that distinguishes Canada from a place like Dubai, for example, where there's a huge foreign-born population.

00:02:59:18 - 00:03:20:20
Daniel
They'll just never be owners of that society. You know, in Canada, you can be. And so immigrants continue to play an incredibly important role in Canadian life and the economy. We're talking about 80% of population growth, as you mentioned, over 100% of labour force growth in many cases. And a key driver of innovation, bringing with them ideas and perspectives from around the world.

00:03:21:02 - 00:03:38:16
Daniel
The current policy changes that you talked about, well, I think what we see now is that Canada is beginning to turn its back towards immigrants. And at the same time, we see immigrants turning their back towards Canada. We can talk about that a little bit more if you like. But more and more, whether it's housing, health care, the education system,

00:03:38:16 - 00:04:07:22
Daniel
Now in post-secondary education, it seems as though immigration is a key variable or axis in any of these policy discussions from a labor supply or, you know, supposed over abundance of demand for these services. We can talk about why those things aren't true if you want. But immigration is becoming a more and more important issue. And we believed really that if an issue this important can't just be managed on a whim, it needs to be managed based on data and based on the contributions of the many tens of thousands of newcomers themselves.

00:04:08:03 - 00:04:20:20
Daniel
So many people purport to speak for them, and we decided through this partnership that they could be able to speak for themselves. So it's a central issue in Canada and we wanted to make sure there was really good sound data for policymakers and business leaders alike and to be able to adapt and contribute.

00:04:21:22 - 00:04:30:05
Alison
I'd love you to do some myth busting  and help us really understand the important role and how some of the things that are in the press really aren't true.

00:04:31:13 - 00:04:57:00
Cynthia
So, interestingly, around the housing crisis, there is a sort of a tension here in the sense that the rising immigration is seen as a certain main reason for the housing crisis and most of the newcomers actually suffer from it at the same time. So it's not just on one situation. On one end, it's actually share the problem.

00:04:57:09 - 00:05:11:12
Cynthia
68% of immigrants say that it's the first problem or challenge they are facing when they arrived in Canada and even 86% of them say that the situation is worse than they expected on the matter.

00:05:11:20 - 00:05:32:01
Daniel
And so what does this mean? This means that if Canada's dependent on immigrants for economic growth, social vitality and renewal, and all other manner of benefits, we need to stop just thinking about how many immigrants we quote, let in and permit, as though their situation in their home countries is so bad and everything in Canada is so good that the only question is how wide to open the door.

00:05:32:08 - 00:05:50:11
Daniel
And what we're seeing is that actually people are coming here and saying, I don't know if I can make it here and they're leaving. And with them go talents and ideas and prosperity and potential. And so one of the things that we really wanted to do is clarify who immigrants are in this study. And that's something that's interesting for policymakers, but also for marketers and business leaders alike.

00:05:50:16 - 00:06:05:15
Daniel
It's the only growing segment of the consumer economy and understanding them, I think, will be very beneficial not only in providing better service and meaning in the marketplace, as is probably a phrase that gets thrown around a lot on this podcast, but also for being a contributor to a positive life in the national interest.

00:06:06:18 - 00:06:11:22
Alison
Daniel, I'd love to have you share with our listeners your definition of immigrants that were used for the study.

00:06:12:03 - 00:06:34:12
Daniel
So the immigrants in this study are members of our Canoo Access Pass, this is an app that the Institute for Canadian Citizenship operates that gives people in their first five years of permanent residency free access to over 2000 of Canada's best culture and nature experiences, discounts with Air Canada, Via rail, pro sports, wine tours, ziplining, whale watching, you name it,

00:06:34:12 - 00:06:58:06
Daniel
We got it. And the idea is to make the decision to move to Canada sticking and irreversible that people have a great time here, believe in this place, buy into it, become citizens and contribute for the long haul as Canadians. And so we have served over 400,000 people with this. Historically, there are about 250,000 people who are using it today, and they are the subjects effectively of this, of this research.

00:06:58:06 - 00:07:17:21
Daniel
They come from all walks of life, all parts of Canada, and they are quite representative of immigrants themselves. They're younger than the Canadian population in general. They're better educated than the Canadian population in general. They come from very, very high future income potential, and they're quite optimistic and they're looking to make their way. So it's it's a really fascinating audience in a mode of discovery.

00:07:18:06 - 00:07:29:08
Daniel
And they have been actually very, very forthcoming and eager to share their perspectives about how Canada can serve them better so that they, in turn, can make future contributions to Canada that are more valuable and enduring.

00:07:29:08 - 00:07:57:03
Cynthia
And I would add that by this medium of having access to new Canadians, we are already at the, in the moment, at the perfect timing to be the most representative possible of immigrants because they are being captured precisely when they become citizens. So that's another very positive facts of the approach so that we have the best coverage possible of immigrants.

00:07:58:06 - 00:08:09:03
Alison
That's great, Cynthia. I'd love to build on that. Given the importance of newcomers in Canada's growth, I know our listeners will be very interested to hear about the new research you collaborated on and how your two organizations came together.

00:08:10:04 - 00:08:37:11
Cynthia
And Ipsos We have been working on this audience, immigrants and newcomers for a while. We have a lot of clients that we have that the requirements within the project and the results that we do. We ourselves have a community online, community offering newcomers where it's more a quality approach. And the big challenge that we have in market research in general is the ability to reach to

00:08:37:11 - 00:09:10:09
Cynthia
Newcomers at scale, right? Because there is a lot of granularity, as you can imagine, because of the cultural background differences, because of the origins, the reason why you are coming to Canada, it's so diverse in nature that you need massive samples, if you want, of newcomers, to be able to understand what is at stake. And these granularity could only be a match with such a solution that the app and the members that the ICC has at their disposal.

00:09:10:10 - 00:09:27:13
Cynthia
So it was kind of the meeting of the best world in this, and that's a market research founder and our already strong knowledge of newcomers and the ICC expertise and, and a pool of newcomers at their disposal.

00:09:28:02 - 00:09:56:14
Daniel
You know and for us, I mean we had this this asset I suppose you can say this this audience, and we were increasingly frustrated by the clear lack of understanding in corporate Canada about who these people are and what they want. And so, for example, you know, there's a trend in advertising, as in the arts and in many other domains, to sort of fetishize diversity, to think that people who come from India, for example, just want to see Indian things.

00:09:56:14 - 00:10:17:12
Daniel
And you know, that the multi-multi category, as they used to call it, and this was not only, you know, offensive, but also really counterproductive, our research shows that actually 96% of people who use our service are looking to have interactions with people outside of their cultural, ethnic and social group. And so we saw that this group was actually very misunderstood.

00:10:17:20 - 00:10:42:09
Daniel
And Ipsos, as a as a research firm, also seems to have a really strong grasp of the fact that a customer is a whole person. They don't just exist in the marketplace and then go away. They vote, they have political interests, they've got other needs. And so we wanted to reflect that and understand that the stuff you buy and the services you receive and your corporate life as a consumer are huge, huge, huge, huge, huge influences

00:10:42:09 - 00:11:09:03
Daniel
on your experience of life in Canada. That's just how it goes. And if we're not able to put the voices of newcomers into boardrooms, then we're going to really limit our impact and our ability to make Canada an enjoyable place. And so this was really a win win. Their philosophy, their focus on ESG really resonated with us. Cynthia's an immigrant herself, understands this experience really well from a personal perspective, and we wanted to put this asset to work in service of our mission.

00:11:09:03 - 00:11:15:14
Daniel
So it was a really it was a really wonderful partnership that hopefully will bear fruits not just for us, but also for people who participate and subscribe to the study.

00:11:16:04 - 00:11:55:06
Cynthia
And another dimension that making a difference here is your ability to get insights over time. One of the key learning we got from the pre study we did is newcomers are not a static audience and it's the needs and and perception and expectations are evolving, with is actually a pretty short time span. And it's very important to be on top of this evolution and this and these changes to make sure that precisely government and companies can address that at the right time.

00:11:56:06 - 00:12:00:15
Alison
What are some of the most surprising findings that you've uncovered in the Newcomers study so far?

00:12:01:09 - 00:12:30:21
Cynthia
One of the most interesting fact finding is that from a newcomers' perspective, Canada is not necessarily delivering on promise. Immigration is expected to be one of the key drivers of economic growth in Canada. Still, newcomers say that the situation is worse than they expected before coming, for housing, for their financial situation and also professional integration.

00:12:31:10 - 00:12:58:14
Cynthia
So there are a lot of essential aspects at stake when that one of the reason they came to Canada and the situation is not as promising as it was supposed to be. And we have one quote you'll find very interesting to encapsulate, that is, I'm not sure it is worth the money I am losing each year and cannot progress I lack. How and when will I be able to recover from this time gap.

00:12:58:21 - 00:13:08:22
Cynthia
So that promise is high and delivering on that promise is an issue that as a society and as an economy, we need to to address.

00:13:09:09 - 00:13:30:19
Daniel
I found some really interesting things, you know, for example, people's disappointment with Canada seems to grow, not shrink with the time that they're here. In other words, you would think that someone settles in and has a hard go that and then gradually finds their way. But actually, you know, satisfaction with some of the kind of key pillars of of of the corporate scene declines progressively as people get familiar.

00:13:30:19 - 00:13:52:12
Daniel
The more they know, the less they like. There's also some interesting findings, especially around financial services and some other kind of high value sectors where, you know, we see these companies pouring so much money into pre-arrival clients, like trying to get people the first day that they come. But actually there are indications that there are windows of switch-ability resulting from this dissatisfaction

00:13:52:12 - 00:14:12:19
Daniel
much later in the piece that some of these companies haven't seem to realize yet. Instead, they're pouring money into people who are pre-arrival, who may be leaving because they're international students or they're on a temporary visa or they don't get permanent residency. So we've started to also see some sort of key disconnects between the data and that sort of typical practices in the marketplace, that I think have been really have been really fascinating.

00:14:12:19 - 00:14:43:23
Daniel
But the one that just really jumps out to me is people, as Cynthia said, they do feel welcomed by the government, by society, by other Canadians, and the level of dissatisfaction in some of these major categories, which I don't need to name, but I think you can all guess, suggest that there are real great opportunities for companies that want to be a little bit more ambitious and a little bit more effective to win in this category and in so doing, make light the life experience of newcomers in Canada so much better so that they stay, become citizens and contribute for the long term.

00:14:43:23 - 00:14:52:23
Daniel
So there's a lot of opportunity and a lot of zones of opportunity that have been identified just in this formative initial study and in subsequent waves, I think we'll get deeper and deeper into.

00:14:54:09 - 00:15:27:12
Cynthia
Link to that, another very interesting fact is that, you know, we were talking about the fact that it's a very dynamic audience, if I may, or group, and you know, the journey and the immigration stage you are in is everything. So at first the expectations are pretty basic. It's more about price, it's pragmatism, it's effectiveness. In the service you are expecting from companies and the time passes and your level of expectations are growing.

00:15:27:17 - 00:15:51:09
Cynthia
For instance, we have observed that for banking, the satisfaction never are going down from when you arrived until the third year. Let's say it's almost the fourth year of your arrival in Canada. And that's when churn is likely to happen, right? And then we go to another bank, right, to get better, a better service, because your expectation has grown.

00:15:51:09 - 00:16:10:18
Cynthia
You have started to build a life for yourself. You have your assets, certainly back from your country of origin, and the level of expectation is completely different. So adapting to these dynamics is essential for businesses to continue to to succeed with this consumer group.

00:16:11:11 - 00:16:28:09
Alison
Beyond the dissatisfaction, you also mentioned that the situation is insenting newcomers to opt out of Canada, and that's clearly a trajectory that we would want to change. So do you have any initial learning or advice on what we can do to improve the situation for newcomers so that they don't opt out and decide to leave Canada?

00:16:29:03 - 00:16:50:00
Daniel
I'd like to just take a second, if I may, some of your listeners may not be familiar with the extent to which immigrants are opting out of Canada. We published a study at the end of October last year in collaboration with the Conference Board of Canada, called The Leaky Bucket, which actually answered a question that I had for two years that, you know, how many immigrants are staying in Canada and actually the government didn't know.

00:16:50:00 - 00:17:11:03
Daniel
And until we looked into it, no one had bothered to check, which is revealing in and of itself, showed that Canada's immigration retention rate has declined by 31% in recent years. We're talking about, you know, significant changes. It used to take 25 years for 20% of an immigrant cohort to leave the country. Now it takes less than 20 years and that's shrinking

00:17:11:03 - 00:17:38:16
Daniel
considerably. Among certain cohorts, it's even higher. So investor class, entrepreneur class, small and medium business owners, people who are admitted in these categories are almost twice as likely to leave the country within ten years as their counterparts in other immigration categories. So this is humongous. I mean, from a from a consumer segment perspective, it's huge. From a labour force perspective, it's a humongous problem. From a capital investment perspective, it's a huge, huge issue.

00:17:38:22 - 00:17:58:13
Daniel
So I think Canada doesn't necessarily realize that our story of immigrants being people who show up with no English and $5 in their pocket like my parents did, work hard and make their way through and all that kind of stuff. We still tell that story. You know who the contemporary immigrant is? It's Cynthia, who's the CEO of a major corporation of the Canadian outlet.

00:17:58:17 - 00:18:24:18
Daniel
Right? With major global experience. And if she decides that Canada isn't working for her, that's our loss, not hers. And so we need to shift our mindset from immigration being something that we do as an exercise of compassion to something that we do as an exercise of ambition and realize that we are competing with other countries in the world, including the home countries that these people come from, whose economic status has increased dramatically in recent decades.

00:18:25:01 - 00:18:58:19
Daniel
And so, you know, if you're a phone provider in Canada as a telco, I'm just giving an example, you know, you're Bell, you're not just competing against Rogers and Telus, you're competing against the standard of people in India who are able to get way better service for way less money, and that's their expectation that you're competing against. So I think we just need to recognize that as Canada's become more and more selective about who we bring into the country, that the status and quality and characteristics and capabilities of the immigrant population has grown immeasurably, which means that they also are more mobile and they have other options.

00:18:59:01 - 00:19:14:21
Daniel
And if they exercise those options, that's bad for your business from a staffing perspective, it's bad for your business from a consumer perspective, and it's bad for the entire country that needs both your business and the employment market and all of these other things to be humming and growing. Immigration has been the source of that growth and immigrants turn their back on Canada,

00:19:14:21 - 00:19:35:21
Daniel
Canada is the one who pays the price. So that's been the situation. And in terms of winning, in terms of making the situation better, like I said earlier, a better experience in daily consumer life makes a difference. If you get off the phone with your cell phone company and they're ripping you off and charging all kinds of terrible fees and you feel terrible about it, you will say, Why did I come here?

00:19:35:21 - 00:19:56:01
Daniel
This is awful, right? And so it's not just about your consumer experience, but which company you choose. This informs your experience of life in Canada. And I think that companies need to be recognizing that they're having a bigger impact, not just whether they win or lose a customer, but actually whether Canada wins or loses a contributor. It's much bigger than just your business.

00:19:56:13 - 00:20:29:00
Cynthia
Fun fact - to illustrate what Daniel is saying is, when we ask a question about how do you feel treated, if you feel welcome, new Canadians, as well as Canadians by the way, feel very positive about it, but it's relatively less about businesses, how they are treated and welcomed by businesses than any other institutional non-for-profit organization. So it's not negative, but they don't say like we are not welcome, we are not treated well, but relatively less than other instances.

00:20:29:00 - 00:20:51:01
Daniel
And this should be obvious to marketers, right? I mean, you know, marketers don't sell that we have the best widget for less money, right? They sell, they sell existential stuff, they sell belonging, they sell status, they sell sex appeal, they sell whatever. Right. Marketers intuitively should understand that people's relationship with these products are associated with broader satisfaction with life.

00:20:51:08 - 00:21:00:18
Daniel
And what we're seeing is that in this category anyways, people don't seem to totally get it. And that message is getting through to immigrants and it affects the degree to which they think that Canada is a viable choice.

00:21:01:21 - 00:21:21:12
Alison 
So given Canada's cultural mosaic, lots of smart marketers have long embraced multicultural marketing. It might be tempting for some brands to think that their multicultural marketing also addressed newcomers. So it would be really helpful for you to speak to some of the key differences that are really unique to newcomers and how best to reach and market to them.

00:21:22:12 - 00:21:44:03
Daniel
While this Ipsos study doesn't get into that right away, and as Cynthia said before, we're just going to become more and more granular, more and more specific as the study picks up momentum, I can tell you from other research that the Institute for Canadian Citizenship has done ourselves on the same population that, you know, we've learned that there are some major blind spots that marketers have.

00:21:44:08 - 00:22:05:10
Daniel
For example, assuming that people's attachment to their home culture is greater than their desire to integrate into Canadian society. You know, we're a small team. We have 33 people on our staff. They come from 18 different countries. And so we're able to get a pretty strong perspective just in the office. And people say, I didn't want to live in Pakistan anymore.

00:22:05:10 - 00:22:31:09
Daniel
I wanted to move to Canada. And as much as it's great to receive my marketing in Urdu, I speak English very well. I've got a Ph.D. which I wrote in English, and I want to know what life is like here. And so this idea of belonging into the country, of treating newcomers in many cases is like a separate fetishized category, that don't speak the language, that have no cultural awareness and need to be sort of spoon fed in these strangely patronizing ways which people believe,

00:22:31:09 - 00:22:48:19
Daniel
I think, they intention them well, they believe them to just be accommodation or welcoming or flexibility or, you know, whatever you want to use. But actually it sort of disregards what people's experience tends to be, which is they want to come to Canada, They want to do stuff that Canadians do, and they want to be they want to be involved.

00:22:48:19 - 00:23:10:02
Daniel
And so I think that's that's one big difference that we're learning and also that sensitivities like, you know, price and things like that apply even more so to this population that has big expectations about improving their lot in life compared to the typical consumer who of course, wants to make more money and do better, but may have smaller ambitions or smaller expectations of a big jump

00:23:10:09 - 00:23:30:06
Daniel
than someone who's made such a dramatic move as to move country. They're expecting something much more and they're much more price-sensitive. So there's that plus the sort of cultural misunderstanding in the marketing. I think these are two things that our other research have taught us need to be addressed. And this research, that tells us what we don't want to do in this research, I think will start to tell us what we do want to do

00:23:30:10 - 00:23:34:06
Daniel
And that's where I think the main value will be, will be to the subscribers.

00:23:35:10 - 00:24:19:04
Cynthia
Another important fact that can help your point here is the impact and the importance of influencers. Like influencers of newcomers, particularly in the first few years. There is a lot of community building for newcomers and yeah this, not new Canadians that have been there for a while become a source of influence of advice for newcomers and that's more where the community express itself within this group.

00:24:20:03 - 00:24:45:12
Daniel
Anecdotally I'll just add one last thing, which is that I think that newcomers to some extent feel exploited. They feel exploited by landlords, they feel exploited by educational institutions, they feel undervalued by their employers in large respect, and their statistics to bear that out. And to the extent that they just get marketed at, you know, very aggressively and quite transparently, based on their immigration status, I think people get defensive.

00:24:45:12 - 00:25:02:04
Daniel
And one of the main advantages of our Canoo Pass, marketing through it, but also the research that we derive as a result from it, is that we are trusted in a sense because we're giving gifts. We're telling people, you're welcome, you're welcome here, you're in demand here, and we're going to put you up at the front of the line.

00:25:02:04 - 00:25:17:13
Daniel
And so I think that building a trust relationship is also very important. And and we may not be doing that enough. Now, that's not something that our research bears out just yet. You could perhaps make associations, but it's something that we found in our general experience that I think marketers would do well to take to heart.

00:25:18:02 - 00:25:28:04
Alison
So to close off our discussion, I'd love to have you each share one piece of advice for our listeners around what they can do to support and encourage newcomers to Canada.

00:25:29:00 - 00:26:08:00
Cynthia
Now in French, we have a saying that says ********** meaning the advisors are not the ones paying the bills. What I would say is - listen, listen, be open, listen dynamically. Newcomers, as we said, it's a very moving dynamic group, that to make sure every dollar you invest in them, you get the return to investment that you want.

00:26:08:00 - 00:26:22:19
Cynthia
You need to capture the essence of what they need at the moment they need it. That makes it pretty both interesting as marketers to work on, and that's what's going to the most rewarding for you.

00:26:23:13 - 00:26:41:00
Daniel
The other thing I would just emphasize is to remember that when you're investing in a relationship with with a newcomer to Canada, you're not just investing in a new customer. Like when Bell calls me and says, go, you know, come from Rogers or Rogers calls me and says, come from Bell, and we just play this game back and forth.

00:26:41:18 - 00:27:13:17 
Daniel
You're investing in a lifelong relationship with somebody who will associate your brand and their experience with your brand, with how they perceive life in Canada more generally. And so you're doing a huge service to Canada, especially in these fundamental categories, if your customers are satisfied. But more than that, people who are facing discrimination, who are being charged rent too high, who don't know anybody who are having trouble making social networks, they will remember the people who treated them well.

00:27:13:17 - 00:27:37:01
Daniel
And we could do a whole other podcast about brand stories from immigrants that I've heard who say when we came here and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we always eat at this restaurant every single time that we go on a road trip, because of that relationship between that restaurant and our immigration journey. You are talking to people at a hugely influential, open minded point in their lives when they're building lifelong brand loyalties in Canada.

00:27:37:16 - 00:27:49:04
Daniel
That's a real opportunity that's different than just winning another switcher. And if you don't realize that, I think it will be to your detriment. So that would be the other thing. These are not just normal customers. This is a lifelong relationship at stake.

00:27:49:12 - 00:28:12:17
Alison
So not surprisingly, this has been an incredibly insight, rich discussion. You have also done a really great job of myth busting and really bringing to light the important role of immigrants to our country, as well as the sophistication and, and who they are and challenged certainly my thinking, and others thinking, and stereotypes to become a lot more broad.

00:28:13:03 - 00:28:28:17
Alison
So huge thank you, Cynthia and Daniel, for a truly great discussion. I'm fascinated to see how the research continues. Would love to have you both back in a few months to share some updates, but thank you both for a really, really great discussion.

00:28:29:00 - 00:28:29:13
Speaker 4
Thank you.

00:28:29:13 - 00:28:33:10
Speaker 3
Thank you.

00:28:33:10 - 00:28:53:20
Speaker 1
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Kim Saunders, Vice President of ESG Strategy and Community Impact at Canadian Tire Corporation. Canadian Tire is dedicated to business growth and creating real change through philanthropy, ESG initiatives, fostering diversity, equity, and inclusion, championing gender equality in sports, and giving back to communities to shape a brighter future for Canada for generations to come.

00:00:00:07 - 00:00:22:12
Unknown
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:14 - 00:00:46:01
Alison
Welcome to a pivotal discussion on marketers and brands embracing ESG, environmental, social and governance. It's a strategy that's proving to be more than just an ethical choice, but absolutely a transformative business advantage and a really important way for marketers and businesses to get back to the communities that they're part of. Amidst the cultural shift towards environmental consciousness, as well as social accountability,

00:00:46:03 - 00:01:10:18
Alison
ESG is often taking centre stage. And again, it's not merely as a compliance checklist, but as a core pillar of visionary business leadership. Beyond being the right thing to do, it's also smart business. Companies that are integrating ESG principles are witnessing very tangible benefits. They're seeing improved investment returns, enhanced brand loyalty and business resilience in the face of global challenges.

00:01:10:19 - 00:01:45:14
Alison
In Canada, the positive ripples of ESG centred operations resonate with heightened consumer expectations that are driving companies to innovate for a better tomorrow. In today's episode, we're joined by an absolute leading light in corporate Canada's journey towards sustainability and impactful community engagement. It's a pleasure for me to have Kim Saunders with us today as the vice president of ESG Strategy, Community Impact and Sponsorships for Canadian Tire. Kim's responsible for the strategic development and programmatic build out of the company's ESG strategy and philanthropic spending.

00:01:45:16 - 00:02:06:14
Alison
She also leads the marketing and fundraising support for the company's charity partner, Jumpstart, and has successfully developed some really exciting strategic community and sports partnerships. We're really looking forward to chatting with her about those today. So Kim, I'm absolutely thrilled to have you on our podcast.  Kim  Amazing. Thank you for having me.    Alison
So, Kim, as you know, I had the pleasure of chatting with Canadian

00:02:06:15 - 00:02:30:21
Alison
Tire Chief Brand and Customer Officer Susan O'Brien on CMA Connect last year. It was very evident from that conversation and also from the one that you and I had earlier, that in addition to Canadian Tire being a renowned Canadian brand and delivering strong, consistently powerful business results and growth, you're also very much focused on giving back to the country and communities that you're part of.

00:02:30:23 - 00:02:50:18
Alison
I know philanthropy and ESG have been a longstanding part of the Canadian Tire business, and approach. I also understand that it evolved fairly dramatically throughout the pandemic. So can you share a little bit about how it evolved and how that impacted your brand values? I know our listeners will also really enjoy hearing how you're now focusing your efforts from an ESG perspective.

00:02:50:23 - 00:03:08:04
Kim
Yeah, absolutely. I'm thrilled to be here and talk about this topic. It's very near and dear to my heart and to us as a brand. As you mentioned, we've been around for 100 years. You're hard pressed to find a Canadian who doesn't know who Canadian Tire is and one of the most critical things they'll tell you is how much we support our community.

00:03:07:00 - 00:03:28:12
Kim
And it is, it's been part of the DNA of the organization. If you go right back to the founders. They created a dealer model, which with the notion that we would share the business with others. The dealer model was about helping others take advantage and grow their own businesses. So right into the roots of the organization you get that notion of sharing and helping others.

00:03:28:17 - 00:03:49:06
Kim
And as you follow the company's journey throughout the hundred years, you'll see many times where they were there for any disaster, any community need. The creation of Jumpstart that you mentioned earlier, helping kids with financial need, get access to sport and play. We are there when Canadians need us, and our dealer community are so generous at a local level as well.

00:03:49:06 - 00:04:11:17
Kim
They are part of every philanthropic or community event that happens, and it's just it's part of who we are. But the pandemic was a really interesting moment for us because the country needed more than just what we sell and just our work that we do in sport. The country needed us to show up in a different way. None of us had been through something like this and we did what we always do.

00:04:11:17 - 00:04:34:15
Kim
We showed up with our Covid response fund, and we put money into the needed charities, but we put PPE into the hands of frontline health care workers, which is not something you would typically think of as an action Canadian Tire would do. But it's what people needed from us. And that really spawned that internal look at ourselves to say, Hey, our role here is so much bigger in this country than just what we sell.

00:04:34:17 - 00:04:57:13
Kim
And it is bigger than just helping kids get into sport. So critical that that action, but we also can do and should do more and that really spawned us looking inward at our brand purpose and revising it is what I would say. It's not a new action, it's a modernization of it and bringing forward. So we live by the mantra that we are here to make life in Canada better.

00:04:57:16 - 00:05:16:18
Kim
That's our role. That's what we're here to do. And ESG, so our environmental actions, our social actions, and even how we govern ourselves is proof to that. It's the trust that you can put in us because we treat the planet and the people in our communities with the utmost respect. We do more for them and we give more than we take.

00:05:16:18 - 00:05:48:02
Kim
And that's really where this all started for us. 

Alison
That's such a great combination of, the core to the business for 100 years and as the world around you, as Canadians around you are changing and evolving, you're staying true to your core principles and values, but doing it in a way that will resonate with today's consumers and tomorrow's. So your evolved vision is to be applauded and your deep commitment to ESG is absolutely something that I am thrilled to have your company leading.

00:05:48:04 - 00:06:09:21
Kim
Amazing. Thank you. 

Alison
You certainly have a lot of well-deserved press around your decision to dedicate half of your sponsorship dollars towards women in sport. The act of actually doing it and making that commitment by a brand of your magnitude and profile within Canada is a first. And I have to say, as a woman who has personally benefited from sport in my life, I absolutely applaud the initiative.

00:06:09:23 - 00:06:28:04
Alison
I'd really love you to tell us what led to that decision and what made now the right time to make the commitment. 

Kim
Yeah, it's an amazing thing that we do. Sport, as you know, as we mentioned off the top, is so foundational to us at Canadian Tire. We just believe in its power to impact children, to impact families, to impact lives at any age.

00:06:28:06 - 00:06:55:05
Kim
And we first started having a conversation around sport back in 2018 when the women started coming back from the Olympics with lots and lots of gold medals. And we knew then that women in this country were poised for something really great. It wasn't something we really dove too deep into, partially because the infrastructure wasn't there. There wasn't really a place for women to go post-Olympics.

00:06:55:05 - 00:07:15:02
Kim
For many sports, that is sort of the pinnacle. Or you end up going outside of your own borders of your country to play the sport you love. And for various reasons, both the infrastructure not being there, our organization being focused on a few things, we kind of let it sit there and bubble as we knew it was something we wanted to dig into, and we knew that the time had to be right.

00:07:15:04 - 00:07:44:17
Kim
And then we sort of started to watch what was happening. And then some really impactful research came out of Canadian women in sport around the marketplace for women's professional sport, the business opportunity and really driving the case. And we kind of said to ourselves, now's the time. We can take a leadership position here. We can try and take all that great research and great experience that we're seeing out there and put our weight of our brand behind it and create that impactful change that we want to see.

00:07:44:19 - 00:08:09:00
Kim
And so that time came to us because the infrastructure was starting to be built with the women's PWHL league starting to take shape, with Diana Matheson's Project 8 and her desire to create a domestic soccer league here starting to take shape, the WNBA bringing their first exhibition game here to Canada and it blowing the roof off Scotiabank Arena with people wanting to see more.

00:08:09:02 - 00:08:20:16
Kim
So we knew there was momentum and we knew that we had a brand that could take a leadership role and help drive that further.

00:08:20:18 - 00:08:28:07
Alison
And what's the response been like from your employees, your store owners, and you consumers? 

Kim
I think it's been even more than we could have imagined. We knew this would be a big moment. We did not expect it to be this big.

00:08:28:09 - 00:08:55:04
Kim
Our employees could not be prouder of the actions we've taken. We hear it daily from them. We have had incredible response from female athletes, from other brands calling us, calling our other senior leaders to say, great, courageous job. We can't believe you took the leadership to do that. There's nothing greater than your C-suite getting a call from someone else's C-suite saying, great job.

00:08:55:06 - 00:09:21:20
Kim
The industry has taken note of it. And I think what's most important is I see the consumers and the fans showing up to those events. You just have to try and get a ticket to a PWHL game in Toronto to know that there's something real here. There's something magical, and I'm thrilled to be able to be on the sidelines of what's going to happen with Project 8, what potentially could happen in basketball and any other sports that might come to life through this.

00:09:21:21 - 00:09:46:05
Kim
So we are not the only brand in this game anymore. And that's the most exciting part, is that we were able to, yes, for us take a leadership position, but hopefully help spark some change that helps move others on to that side of the field. 

Alison
In Canada and globally, there's been a bit of a misperception that women's sporting events can't attract the same sort of audience and revenue and viewership as male sports.

00:09:46:05 - 00:10:12:20
Alison
So I love the fact that you played a pivotal role in myth-busting and helping Canadians, and even globally, to build up appreciation that absolutely a great athlete is a great athlete and we are at least as compelling. So thank you. 

Kim
My pleasure. Listen, as a woman who loved sport and as a mother of a daughter in sport, I just I think this is so needed and honestly, it's great sport to watch whatever gender they're on, the ice or the field,

00:10:12:20 - 00:10:35:22
Kim
it's a great sport to watch. And it's really exciting for me that we've been able to make such a big movement on the gender front, and it encourages me with the other parts of our strategy around sport and equity, which is helping Bipoc communities, LGBTQ communities, communities, indigenous communities. How do we help make sure that sport in this country is equal and welcoming and inclusive?

00:10:36:00 - 00:11:03:07
Kim
That's the goal and I hope we're here for many years to come doing doing this work. 

Alison
Kim, with your really rich experience in driving these types of initiatives for it, what advice do you have for marketers who want to drive impactful ESG programs and don't have your personal experience and are probably earlier in the journey than you? 

Kim
Yeah, I think I think there's a few things I'd say to someone who was looking at this space and excited by it, which is - Dig in, learn.

00:11:03:09 - 00:11:36:09
Kim
There's a ton of great information out there, literature, research, examples of brands who've taken advantage of the moment. So get out there and see who's done this and learn from it. A great resource that I love to share with people and really a foundational key to how we've built our ESG strategy is the Porter and Kramer Shared Value principle. Porter and Kramer are a couple of Harvard professors who a few years ago created the Shared Value Initiative, which is really the notion that you can have societal benefit and profit together.

00:11:36:09 - 00:11:58:08
Kim
And as a corporation, it's not just an opportunity, it's actually your obligation. It's a bit of a challenge on capitalism and its traditional state. So we really are embedded that into our thinking. And I would challenge people to go out there, learn about it, think about it, how they can bring that to life. I'd like to talk about this work is, it's actions before adds You have to have meaningful action.

00:11:58:08 - 00:12:23:06
Kim
You need meaningful, positive change for the stakeholders you're engaging with. And from that comes the best, richest storytelling you'll ever get. When you start with - How do I get the ad or the TV campaign or the marketing award for it? I think you lose a little bit of that richness and potential depth when you start with - How can I make a meaningful impact on the planet, on the people who are on this planet?

00:12:23:08 - 00:12:50:14
Kim
If I think about the impact I can have, the stories will start to tell itself. And in fact, all of those stakeholders will help you tell that story of your journey. So I think that's a big thing, I'd say. The other part is just put your elbows up and get to the table. Ask your organization because you will find out that they are advocates for much of this work, whether it's protecting the environment or helping communities drive equality or being there for social change.

00:12:50:14 - 00:13:08:21
Kim
Your employee base, your leadership, they all have personal views to this and I think you can harness a lot of power in looking at your employee base. 

Alison
That's great advice. Kim. I love your mantra, actions before ads. I'd love to hear if you could you give us an example of one of the stories that emerged from some of the actions that you took?

00:13:09:02 - 00:13:32:06
Kim
Absolutely. Something that I might share with this group of listeners that I think could be very valuable would be how we have thought about diversity, equity and inclusion. In 2020, when George Floyd was murdered, all brands thought about how they could participate in a social conversation that was much needed. And we really chose the action of we need to think about this internally first.

00:13:32:09 - 00:13:52:21
Kim
We need to think about - look inside ourselves and figure out what we need to fix about ourselves and take care of our employees. And from there we will then have an opportunity to talk about it later as a brand. And frankly, we sort of said you probably won't see an ad from us talking about our our diversity and inclusion strategies any time soon.

00:13:53:00 - 00:14:17:12
Kim
What you're going to see us do is make conscious decisions about the products that are on our shelves or not on our shelves. Make conscious decisions about the spaces that we put into our regular advertising or into our marketing initiatives. You're going to see us talk to our employees in a different way. So we've taken the tone of - we could have put an ad campaign out there, but we've chosen to actually drive meaningful impact with our current stakeholders.

00:14:17:17 - 00:14:43:17
Kim
And that in and of itself is how we come to market. 

Alison
So the CMA is part of annual most influential brands each year and earlier in the year we unveiled the 2023 most influential brands. One of the key insights that came out of this year's study was the really important role that partnerships and sponsorships can have in a brand's ability to influence consumers and clients in particular.

00:14:43:19 - 00:15:16:09
Alison
I know that you got a lot of great relationships and partnerships and sponsorships, so I'd love to understand your approach to selecting the right partnerships and sponsors. 

Kim
Yeah, and I've had a long time in partnerships and sponsorship, and so I am a big believer in what that medium can do. To your point, from influencing change and driving opportunity for your business and your brand, but also in creating the stories that are so rich for an integrated marketing team to be able to play with. What goes into our strategy is, is a combination of things.

00:15:16:10 - 00:15:40:22
Kim
It's about who the partner is and what they do. That's where we generally start. What's the impact they are having, what is the impact that they can have on the community with your support? And that community can be anything from a sort of more philanthropic social issue, straight up to, you know, professional sports and having an impact on inspiring kids and adults alike.

00:15:41:00 - 00:16:00:07
Kim
So it's not necessarily about a social or a traditional ESG partnership. It could be any kind of partnership. But what are the values of that organization? What do they offer? What can you build together? And then how do you make sure that you are creating something that gives more than you take back? That's some of the things that we look at.

00:16:00:09 - 00:16:26:02
Alison
That's very helpful. Thank you. So marketing budgets, certainly by extension sponsorships, and ESG initiatives, can often be the first to face cuts during tough economic times. I'm curious about how you maintain your commitment to those areas when you're faced with financial constraints, in particular, how do you continue to drive and advance your company's purpose during periods of budget pressures, which could include everything up to staff layoffs?

00:16:26:02 - 00:16:53:23
Kim
Yeah, it's a great question because obviously when economies are in a tough state and businesses are looking at cost cutting with with regards to the current situation, it's an easy place to think about sponsorship and partnerships to go. What I would say is your values don't change because the economy's in a tough spot. So if you've entered into that partnership based on mutual values and mutual opportunity to impact the country, that's not going to change.

00:16:54:05 - 00:17:19:12
Kim
How you bring it to life may change, how you operationalize it for that year may slightly adjust, but the value of being together as a partner won't. And so I think it's about choosing wisely when you go into that relationship. Good economy, bad economy. It's about thinking about why are we in this together and what are we achieving so that you know that when tough times hit, you still want to be in that relationship together.

00:17:19:14 - 00:17:38:19
Alison
That's super helpful, Kim, and I love your call out that when times are tough, they're not just tough for our businesses and our brands. They're tough for the people that your sponsorships and your initiatives are helping serve, too. So it's in many ways the worst time to be walking away from a support when it can be also the time that's most needed.

00:17:38:21 - 00:17:59:00
Kim
Yeah, absolutely. I think it is a time to double down and it's hard to do, absolutely, when you're faced with those pressures of the business reality, especially if you're a publicly traded company. There's just a business reality to it. But that's really the time to almost double down, particularly if they are things that impacts your employee base or whether they impact communities that are marginalized communities.

00:17:59:00 - 00:18:20:16
Kim
That's where they need us the most. So, maybe you rethink that relationship, but I don't know that you always walk from that. 

Alison
So Kim, you have shared so many incredibly valuable insights with us today. Before I let you go off to your busy day though, I would love to take the opportunity to have you share one piece of advice for marketers. 

00:18:20:16 - 00:18:47:01
Kim
One piece of advice. If you are going to enter into the ESG realm, I would say roll your sleeves up, lean in to the table, get your elbows up. It's not always an easy fight. You are definitely asking for things that are sometimes ten and 15 years down the line when they return on that investment. You're asking for things that seem sometimes to be counterintuitive to the day to day running of the business.

00:18:47:03 - 00:19:07:05
Kim
But if you believe in it and you know it's got that impact, roll your sleeves up, get your elbows up, get to the table and ask and know that it's a long time journey, but it's based on the right thing. 

Alison
I love that advice and I'm going to actually squeeze in one more question coming off of your advice. What attracted you to this particular part of building brands in marketing?

00:19:07:05 - 00:19:27:14
Kim
What attracted me to this type of work was the opportunity to have an impact. Real meaningful impact, and being able to tie products and a strong business to a strong community and a strong country. To me, that is the ultimate opportunity here, is we can grow our business and we can do some good in the world.

00:19:27:14 - 00:19:53:13
Kim
And I think that that for me is that is what's the most attractive about it. I don't have to pick, you know, whether we can make some money or I can have a good job with doing something for others in need. I get to be able to do both. And I think as brands, what an amazing opportunity for us to change the shape of this country, to change the way our planet is, is situated right now, to be able to do that and still grow a healthy business.

00:19:53:15 - 00:20:28:12
Alison
I am so glad I snuck in. One last question. Thank you for indulging me. I love the way you answered that and how you're demonstrating the critical role the marketing profession plays in both building business and building our country. So Kim, it has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much and continued success. 

Kim
Thank you. I appreciate you having me here and championing this work and this way of thinking where I think it's an amazing opportunity for all marketers to get behind it.

00:20:28:14 - 00:20:41:03
Unknown
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

 

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Jay Badiani, Chief Marketing Officer at IBM Canada. They'll explore the shifting B2B landscape, from new trends to cybersecurity challenges, and discuss IBM's mission to lead in business AI solutions, particularly within the Canadian context.

00:00:02:10 - 00:00:45:15

Welcome to Cinema Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMS CEO Allison Simpson.

Alison Simpson

In today's ever evolving B2B marketing landscape, we're witnessing a transformative shift in both strategies and priorities. So as Canadian businesses are seeking to stay competitive and relevant through an incredible tsunami of change, it's absolutely imperative that marketers embrace new technologies, really bring a learning mindset to what they're doing, and take advantage of all the tools that are available to them today.

 

00:00:45:17 - 00:01:06:11

Alison Simpson

So to guide us through this very exciting time, I'm absolutely thrilled to have Jay Baghdadi, the chief marketing officer of IBM Canada, joining us today. With Jay's wealth of experience leading a client centric and agile team across the full marketing mix, he's uniquely qualified to offer a great vantage point into the insights that are shaping the needs of B2B companies across diverse industries.

 

00:01:06:12 - 00:01:26:14

Alison Simpson

So welcome, Jay. Thank you very much for having me, Allison. So let's kick things off with the diversity of clients and industries that IBM partners with. You have a really broad perspective, broader than most. So now that you were in the first quarter 2020 for AJ, what B-to-B trends are you seeing yourself from your role and also among your clients?

 

00:01:26:16 - 00:02:13:19

Jay Badiani

Yeah, that's a really great question, and especially because we've seen really strong economy in the last few years being slowed down a little bit. So there are some shifting trends where we see clients coming to us talking about growth and where they're going to find new clients and how they're going to retain clients. It's very important giving the slowdown in the economy that some are projecting and as well, we're seeing clients talk to us about their bottom line and always looking for help on managing cost and even more so looking at productivity and how they can help their employees work on the right things, work smarter and do a better job again, serving clients.

 

00:02:13:21 - 00:02:39:22

Jay Badiani

So those are two real trends we're seeing in industry today, is ever more focus on the top line and a continuing focus on cost management and the bottom line.

 

Alison Simpson

I know all of those will absolutely be resonating with our listeners. So without giving away anything confidential, can you share some of the recommendations? Are ways that you're advising or helping support your clients, answering those important questions?

 

00:02:40:00 - 00:03:07:20

Jay Badiani

Yes, absolutely. So I'll start where IBM comes from, the position that we want to be the number one provider of artificial intelligence services for business. AI for businesses is what we call it. It's actually a marketing campaign and it very much addresses what those concerns are and the challenges that we see clients having. We come at this from the context of how can IBM help?

 

00:03:07:21 - 00:03:48:11

Jay Badiani

There's been a, you know, a giant amount of conversation around A.I., and we come at this from a point of view. A we can be a trusted AI provider for our clients. And, you know, just talking about the top line and where where clients can scale and find new clients as well as how they can be productive. We have a platform we've introduced called Watson X and Watson has different elements of the platform that provide clients with the ability to look at their customer base, understand better where the clients are and what they might be seeking.

 

00:03:48:13 - 00:04:19:18

Jay Badiani

There's actually an assistant. It's an app that's built on Watson X called Watson X Assistant, and we have many clients using that to serve their clients better. And then we've also got another app on the Watson next platform called Watson Next Orchestrate. And that's one that's the generative AI digital app where our clients can go in and understand their course better and feed in a corpus of data feed in as big a model as they have or as much information they have to help their employees be more productive.

 

00:04:19:19 - 00:04:36:20

Jay Badiani

Like you said, not trying to share anything confidential, but this is an app I really like to share when I'm just meeting with people. An example of this Watson orchestrator app is something i have on my phone called Ask h.R. And no matter where I am, no matter what time of day it is, i can go to that app and all of our h.r.

 

00:04:36:20 - 00:04:55:05

Jay Badiani

Policies are in there. It's connected into our actual h.r. system of record, and i can connect any h.r. Transaction day and night, whether it's publishing a salary letter, whether it's for someone who's looking for i have an employee is looking for a mortgage, and they need a salary letter. You know, I can get that out to them any time of day or night.

 

00:04:55:06 - 00:05:19:03

Jay Badiani

If I have an employee to changing departments, I can, you know, move them from one department to another. If I have an employee who's looking for information about taking a leave of absence or if I need to even process a leave of absence of someone, you're not going to be at work for a period of time. I can do that all from a simple app, just literally typing in a natural language, English language, and on the transactions will actually happen.

 

00:05:19:03 - 00:05:41:22

Jay Badiani

So that's just an example of digital labor in a way that, you know, IBM, we're doing this internally for ourselves and we're actually marketing it to clients as well to help them be more productive.

 

Alison Simpson

That's a great example. And you're absolutely right. They're not just marketers all business people are looking at how do I understand Gen AI, and how can I leverage to help it make me more efficient and make my teams more scalable and more productive?

 

00:05:42:00 - 00:06:03:04

Alison SImpson

I love the example that you used on the H.R. side. Do you have some other examples, IBM or for some of your clients on what needs they're trying to help solve with Gen AI? I think it it's instructional for listeners to really see how other businesses and marketers are, what problems they're trying to solve with gen AI.

Jay Badiani

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

 

00:06:03:04 - 00:06:38:10

Jay Badiani

So the priority areas for clients, you know, we've talked a little bit about the top line and you know how it's harder to grow the top line in a market that's slowing down a little bit. But they also come to us with their priorities around ESG and particularly sustainability, regardless of what sort of what's happening in the market around revenue and costs, they've made commitments to shareholders around achieving certain sustainability goals, whether it's a reduction in carbon emissions, whether they've made net zero goals, whether it's, you know, business model transformation.

 

00:06:38:12 - 00:07:04:01

Jay Badiani

And we absolutely you know, I talk about AI for business. We absolutely have AI embedded in our sustainability software as well. So two really good examples of that is new software company IBM acquired, called Envisi helps you see your entire carbon footprint across your organization. You know, when we implemented in a certain way for them, it helps them manage it, right?

 

00:07:04:01 - 00:07:22:12

Jay Badiani

So you can be a utility or an energy company or you can be a bank, you know, a lot of different kinds of institutions have different sustainability goals they're trying to achieve. And in this is fabulous software that lets them see the entire their entire footprint and you know, what's what they could change that might make a difference.

 

00:07:22:14 - 00:07:51:10

Jay Badiani

Another element of sustainability, we always say, is sustainability isn't separate from profitability actually being a sustainable organization helps you be more profitable as well. And we have artificial intelligence based app called Maximo, and Maximo is around asset management. So when you're infrastructure heavy company, again, you have a lot of real estate, you might have a lot of vehicles.

 

00:07:51:15 - 00:08:24:23

Jay Badiani

Maximo Helps you predict the maintenance required on those assets, helps you understand exactly where all the assets are, you know, where they are in their life cycles and helps you then manage how much maintenance is needed or schedule maintenance. And you know, a lot of our infrastructure heavy clients look at that as very helpful to them to know that we can maintain machines better, make sure that they're not breaking down, make sure that they're not using excessive energy and making sure we're optimizing the assets that we have.

 

00:08:25:01 - 00:08:54:15

Jay Badiani

It's another way for organizations to be more sustainable and another area where, you know, again, clients, regardless of what's going on in the economic marketplace, is cybersecurity. So we have a lot of clients coming to us with cybersecurity challenges. Cybersecurity has never been more important than it is today. And some of our surveys that we do show that the cost of a data breach has been never been higher to remediate these costs, even in Canada.

 

00:08:54:18 - 00:09:15:17

Jay Badiani

And I'm not even talking about the cost to the brand and the cost of the value of a brand. I'm just talking about the actual cost to get in and figure out where the data breach occurred and seal it up and prevent it from happening. And also in in some cases, companies have to pay ransoms, right, Ransoms to get out of a data breach.

 

00:09:15:20 - 00:09:46:15

Jay Badiani

So our security software again uses AI to monitor the entire threat landscape. The software is called Q radar and Q Radar has air inside, and it can do the work of many, many air analysts. So, you know, just almost impossible for a human or even a team of people to track the literally tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of threats that are coming into organizations in a day, into large organizations or into governments.

 

00:09:46:17 - 00:10:12:17

Jay Badiani

So curator software has AI to help organizations do that. Those are just two areas. In addition to, you know, we talked about revenue management, cost management, but sustainability and security as well, where where I can definitely help.

 

Alison Simpson

Those are two very important areas. And I like to call out that sustainability and profitability aren't separate. In fact, sustainability can positively impact profitability.

 

00:10:12:17 - 00:10:54:14

Alison Simpson

And when companies and individuals are under revenue pressure, remembering that and knowing that sustainability can actually be a driver or not a roadblock is super important. On the cybersecurity front, I've certainly seen an elevation of sophistication in the attacks. Are you seeing that? And you're also seeing the volume of a tax increase?

 

Jay Badiani

Yeah, yeah, there's no doubt. We do surveys chief information security officers every year and on top of that, our security software gathers this data and it tells us that the volume is I know exponential is an exaggeration, but it is massively increasing.

 

00:10:54:18 - 00:11:21:03

Jay Badiani

And the capabilities that cyber actors have are also increasing. They use A.I. as well. So, yeah, there's absolutely no doubt that you need to keep up with threats. You really need to use the latest technology to combat the latest threats, because you're exactly right with your question. The threats are increasing and the bad guys are getting more and more capabilities.

 

00:11:21:05 - 00:11:43:06

Alison Simpson

So now you are part of an organization, a very global business. So I'm very curious to hear what differences you see for B2B marketing and customers in Canada compared to the U.S. and other IBM markets.

 

Jay Badiani

IBM is in a really unique position because we have a while, we're a very large global organization. We're very large footprint in Canada.

 

00:11:43:08 - 00:12:02:07

Jay Badiani

So, you know, I don't know whether the there is a company like IBM because we do see that a lot of organizations that are in the business that we're in, in the technology business, they might be global and others have heard of them for sure, but they don't necessarily have the same footprint of people that we would have.

 

00:12:02:13 - 00:12:29:00

Jay Badiani

So IBM is a different organizations. We're not just a tech company. We're a consulting company around tech. And so when we do our marketing, you know, my group is very focused on specifically Canada. We're very specifically focused on what we call field marketing and field communications here. And so we're always looking at ways to have a unique client experience in Canada for our clients.

 

00:12:29:06 - 00:12:48:02

Jay Badiani

And that's sort of I feel like it's sort of unique. You know, we're not relying on lots of TV ads, for example, we're not relying on a lot of, you know, Internet marketing, for example. We do have this sort of really large concentration here of trying to be with clients in the field. And social media is a big part of that.

 

00:12:48:02 - 00:13:07:20

Jay Badiani

So when I say, you know, field marketing, field communications, social media is really a big part of that for us.

Alison Simpson

And Jay when you're talking to your global peers and your American peers about the business customers that you're working with in Canada, are you seeing any differences in who those customers are or what they're looking for compared to the other markets?

 

00:13:08:02 - 00:13:31:19

Jay Badiani

There's you know, Canada is interesting in that we have some very large banks in Canada where other countries might have more banks, but maybe not the same concentration. And so there's definitely a difference here where we spend a lot of time on, I'll call it financial services. And so not just banks, but insurance companies too, is a big concentration for us on financial services.

 

00:13:31:21 - 00:13:55:04

Jay Badiani

And as you know, Canada, a large federal government big vendor in the market on for technology as well as the ten provinces and the three territory. So we have a focus on government and our public sector. And you know, those are two major sectors for us. They would be important in any really developed economy. I think in Canada there's probably a bit more concentration on fast services and on government.

 

00:13:55:04 - 00:14:17:11

Jay Badiani

And then of course, you know, Canada, we're very successful in many other industries, but I think that you would see in other countries there might be a bit more around any fracturing or a bit more variety around some of the industries like tech or retailing that they would market to. So we definitely have those in Canada we all know who are grocery retailers are.

 

00:14:17:11 - 00:14:37:20

Jay Badiani

We know some of our vape shops are, but I think in other countries there's maybe a bit more local diversity of those though. You know, off the top, when I was talking about retail, I was talking about where do companies find more customers? And we actually did a survey that was just published last week on our earlier in the year on retail.

 

00:14:37:20 - 00:14:56:00

Jay Badiani

And we see that a lot of customers online aren't that happy with their bindery. They're actually, you know, our survey said less than 50% were satisfied with their online buyer journey, but 80% said they would be happy to have an air assistant guide them and so, you know what, we're and this was a global survey. This just was in Canada.

 

00:14:56:03 - 00:15:21:17

Jay Badiani

But I think that would apply here, right, where you go to certain websites and they're fabulous and you're getting awesome recommendations. And it's so easy to buy and you go to other ones and you're like, I can't find what I want. Or, you know, it's a little bit tricky finding that's a little bit tricky with, you know, all of the delivery information is a little tricky with, you know, getting stuff to your door, you know, not satisfied with getting help when you need help, getting help with returns, or do you need help with return.

 

00:15:21:19 - 00:15:56:09

Jay Badiani

And so we see there's a big opportunity there. And absolutely, we see, you know, retailers, regardless where they are looking for a guy to better serve their customers and, you know, in Canada and around the world.

Alison Simpson

So building on that, have you observed many regional differences in your Canadian marketing?

 

Jay Badiani

You know, there's not that many differences, but one reason thing that, you know, cause us to look at our marketing strategies is the new law in Quebec and just making sure it's been an opportunity for us to take a step back and look at our campaigns that we run in Quebec.

 

00:15:56:11 - 00:16:16:02

Jay Badiani

 

And I think I don't know if other organizations are like us, but we do, you know, maybe there was a sense that we were taking campaigns and just sort of translating them into French, and this has caused us to just take a step back and beyond taking an English campaign and translating it to French, really try and understand is it right for the Quebec market.

 

00:16:16:04 - 00:16:38:19

Jay Badiani

So, you know, it's still it's still new law. It's still something that we're we're working through to make sure we're, you know, complying with French language laws. But also we want to make sure because that market can be different in certain aspects. Are we you know, or is everything contextually right for the Quebec market, not just having, you know, campaigns land there in French?

 

00:16:38:21 - 00:16:58:20

Alison Simpson

And then, Jay, earlier, you talked about air certainly playing a pivotal role in enabling IBM's business. You're creating a lot of great solutions for your clients to enable them to do more as well. And all of our listeners are certainly looking at general AI and new tools as a way to improve and get better at what they're doing.

 

00:16:58:22 - 00:17:41:03

Alison Simpson

Can you share an exemple or to of what you've seen organizations do beyond IBM to use AI to help achieve their goals?

 

Jay Badiani

I can talk about a few industry examples, but one overarching thing that I really would like to say is IBM's large language models. If you use them, you're indemnified from IP risks and I think that's something that companies see is really interesting because when you just go to, you know, an Internet app, you never really know where the information coming from that this AI is based upon and where are the answers coming from, and are you really using a model that's free of intellectual property risk?

 

00:17:41:03 - 00:18:04:14

Jay Badiani

And you've we've seen a lot of that in the news. So so that's one thing that we're we're really proud about, is we can indemnify customers that use our models because we know what the models were trained on. I talked a little bit about energy and you remarked about sustainability and profitability go hand in hand. And we absolutely this is a this is just still a big growth industry in the world around the economy.

 

00:18:04:14 - 00:18:28:15

Unknown

And what's going to how do we move from a carbon economy to a more sustainable economy? And there's absolutely more that will happen around putting the information that that sort of spread around the world in many different peoples, you know, that they have into a place where we can make the right decisions. One thing that IBM's done is worked with NASA geospatial models, and we've made these available as open source models.

 

00:18:28:19 - 00:19:07:23

Jay Badiani

So anyone is working with Watson and can work with our NASA geospatial models. And what that help people do is marry weather data with satellite data of parts of the world and really help them understand what's happening with the climate there, what can be done to improve the climate there, what changes are happening over time, whether it's industrialization, agriculture, deforestation, you know, is this just gigantic amounts of not just text data, but images and other kinds of geospatial data are being put together.

 

00:19:08:00 - 00:19:30:20

Jay Badiani

I by our customers and using our models. The last thing I'd say is, is security. It was a great, you know, question you had earlier where I was talking about security and it's never ending like that. That struggle is never ending. We're continually working with them around how can we keep up with the bad guys? How can we make sure that again, brands are protected?

 

00:19:30:22 - 00:19:53:06

Jay Badiani

You when you come into a store or you come into someone's website, you know your data is safe and that just goes across all industries, governments to we've seen we've seen where health care institutions have been taken down in Canada because of cybercrime. And we've seen, you know, other organizations around the world, you know, have major consequences because of cyber crime.

 

00:19:53:06 - 00:20:25:10

Jay Badiani

So this is it's a never ending one for everyone that we work with. But we know we know A.I. will help us if you don't have A.I. working for you, the bad guys do. And you know, we won't be able to keep up with them.

 

Alison Simpson

So Jay  you've certainly given us lots to think about in your comment around the bad guys have access to Jenn-Air too, so it's so important for all of us to stay on top of and ahead of where the bad guys are so that we can continue to protect our brands and have the trusting relationships that we need with our customers and all our stakeholders.

 

00:20:25:12 - 00:20:46:01

Alison Simpson

So to close off our conversation, I'd love to benefit from the fact that you have this incredible, very robust marketing career and have you share one piece of advice for our listeners. What would you recommend marketers do to be successful and grow their careers in the months and years ahead?

 

Jay Badiani

First of all, Alison, such a great opportunity for me to speak to you today, so thank you very much for that opportunity.

 

00:20:46:03 - 00:21:14:11

Jay Badiani

I really enjoyed the conversation in terms of a piece of advice is nothing that we do is an individual effort. Everything is a is a team effort. And I really think it's important for people to collaborate with each other to know how one part of the organization fits into the work that they do and then how their outcomes affect what another part of the organization might do or even customers would see.

 

00:21:14:11 - 00:21:36:12

Jay Badiani

You know, there's marketing and then there's PR and external communications and it's all connected. So I think as much as people can see that the role they play isn't in isolation, it's all connected to something else. And eventually a customer will see that in the market or an employee or a government organization will see something from your company in the market.

 

00:21:36:12 - 00:21:56:19

Jay Badiani

Then it just helps you put into context just how important the work that we do is. And when we all collaborate as a team, the work will of course be better. So just just about team and collaboration and, you know, knowing how your organization works is so important.

 

Alison Simpson

I think that's great advice for all of us at all levels for sure.

 

00:21:56:21 - 00:22:23:09

Alison Simpson

I also want to thank you for the overall conversation. You have such a great experience and I really appreciate you making time in your busy schedule to join us today and share your wealth of experience around B2B marketing, Some of the regional and global differences you're seeing in Canada compared to elsewhere in the world. And the important focus that IBM has around Jenn-Air and some of the powerful tools and solutions that you're creating.

 

00:22:23:11 - 00:22:47:16

Jay Badiani

Thank you very much, Alison. I really enjoyed our conversation.

 

Alison Simpson

Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

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In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Anne Marie Wright, Partner and Co-Founder at YOUAREUNLTD, and Marc Cooper, CM, President at Junction59. In this lively conversation, they dive into the opportunities the aging population brings, the challenges they face and the organizations spearheading efforts to eradicate age discrimination in Canadian marketing.

00:00:23:03 - 00:00:47:18

Alison Simpson

CMAs latest research findings echo a concerning truth experience is undervalued within our industry, says we are striving for diversity, equity and inclusion. It is absolutely essential that we recognize that age should not be a barrier to hiring, to working with or promoting a deserving employee. Ageism is a significant issue in the marketing profession, and many believe it's tolerated more than other forms of discrimination.

 

00:00:48:14 - 00:01:09:15

Alison Simpson

The recent DEI survey that the CMA conducted revealed that on average, marketers consider employees over 48 years of age to be older workers. So not only is are ageism in our industry and profession, it also starts up what I would say is a relatively ignored age. So while many boomers are reporting that they feel disadvantaged because the marketing industry is so image conscious.

 

00:01:10:01 - 00:01:37:00

Alison Simpson

All of this highlights the biases that can hinder the growth of experienced talent. Joining me today, I am very happy to have two exceptional minds who are actively reshaping this narrative. Anne Marie Wright is co-founder of Duo Unlimited and Marc Cooper is president of Junction 59. Anne Marie and Marc have come together to co-found the third State, a strategic partnership whose goal is to help leaders of businesses identify and harness the potential of aging and the new longevity economy.

 

00:01:37:16 - 00:02:03:01

Alison Simpson

So together, we're going to explore the pervasive impact of ageism and ages views within our marketing and communications community. We're going to dive into how marketers and communicators are in a truly unique position to help address and combat these problems for the benefit of the workforce. Organizations that engage these workforces and the consumers that we serve. So it's an absolute pleasure to welcome Anne Marie and Marc to join me on the podcast today.

 

00:02:03:06 - 00:02:03:19

Alison Simpson

Welcome.

 

00:02:04:06 - 00:02:14:14

Marc Cooper

Thank you very much for having us here today. It's really wonderful to be able to share these thoughts with the CMA and with the marketing community in general.

 

00:02:14:18 - 00:02:15:23

Anne Marie Wright

We're thrilled to be here.

 

00:02:16:13 - 00:02:29:06

Alison Simpson

Now I'm going to kick things off with our first question. And Anne Marie, why don't I have you start this one? Can you tell us more about what you mean by the longevity economy and why you see it as so critically important to our conversation today?

 

00:02:30:16 - 00:03:05:09

Anne Marie Wright

So the most important thing to know this stage is the world is rapidly aging and this is a global phenomenon. What we're referring to here is a demographic trend characterized by an increasing proportion of people over 50, driven by factors such as declining birthrates and increasing life expectancy. This phenomena, which is in fact one of the biggest global trends of our time, has significant social and economic impact.

 

00:03:05:18 - 00:03:37:17

Anne Marie Wright

And this has been studied by people like the W.H.O., hundreds of think tanks, institutions, global governments, and more. The impacts of global aging populations are both positive and negative. And because this is such a big conversation, what Mark and I want to focus on with you today is to talk about the positive and economic side of this story, economic side of this phenomena, what it means to marketers and communicators.

 

00:03:39:05 - 00:04:15:00

Anne Marie Wright

So in essence, we need to think about a very large and influential cohort of people, and it's a very misunderstood and very misrepresented audience, which we're going to talk about a little bit later on in this podcast. Fundamentally, this cohort is redefining, disrupting, accepted definitions of what it is to age, what old age means. The influence of this audience has given rise to something called the longevity economy.

 

00:04:15:00 - 00:05:03:23

Anne Marie Wright

And this terminology is framed by Joseph Coughlin at MIT H Lab. A Fundamentally, what this means is that's referring to an economic impact and potential of the growing and increasingly influential older populations that we're seeing on the global stage. It encourages all businesses and industry to recognize and respond to the diverse needs and preferences of aging populations. This economy, in fact, is so large that it's been referred to as the third largest economy in the world behind only the U.S. and China is $8 trillion and growing in the U.S. Unfortunately, we don't have any Canadian data on this.

 

00:05:04:07 - 00:05:34:02

Anne Marie Wright

And throughout the world, industry, governments, social institutions have been waking up to this new economy and our team has seen rapid growth and investment in this space over the last five years. For example, in the venture capital community, it's one of the largest segments of investment and in the last three years. So with the size of this market, one might be asking why is there not been more attention paid to the market?

 

00:05:34:12 - 00:06:15:05

Anne Marie Wright

And the answer is rather straightforward. The challenge is that ageism and ages views. The topic of our podcast has actually been in the way of progress here. And there's a difference we want to make between the topic of ageism and an age just views the challenges that ages and ages views have been in the way of progress. Ageism, as Alison identified earlier in the podcast, is a systematic and often deeply ingrained form of discrimination and prejudice that involves stereotyping against certain individuals or groups based on their age.

 

00:06:15:15 - 00:06:44:13

Anne Marie Wright

I want to be really clear here that ageism actually impacts many age groups, but the global research, the global study today is very much focused on aging populations simply because this is such a large, impactful cohort of people ages, views that are a manifestation of ageism in general, refer to a specific perspective or beliefs held by an individual or group that reflects ageism.

 

00:06:45:04 - 00:07:10:17

Anne Marie Wright

For example, if we hold a belief that older adults are not technically inept or older adults are set in their ways, these are fundamentally our just views that we hold. What's important here for today's conversation is that marketers and communicators we think can strongly lead a new narrative and movement to dismantle ageism and ages views.

 

00:07:11:18 - 00:07:51:05

Alison Simpson

But thanks to Maria, that's a great help. And you call a really important point. From my perspective, a lot of very important points from my perspective. But as marketers, not only do we have a responsibility and an opportunity to encourage diversity and the wisdom that comes with years of experience in how we hire, we also have a real opportunity to influence popular culture or by the marketing we do, and making sure that it's as inclusive as it should be and representative of the real world and the number of Canadians we have that absolutely have so much more to contribute, even though they might be in some people's definition older.

 

00:07:51:23 - 00:08:12:03

Alison Simpson

So I think there's two really unique, important opportunities there for sure. So certainly the CMA survey highlighted ageism industry as a real issue. Can you introduce some new thinking around ageist views and dive a little deeper into how these issues show up in our industry and as importantly, what we can do to start reframing our thinking?

 

00:08:14:00 - 00:08:43:04

Marc Cooper

You know, let's start with ageism in the workplace. Our industry is notorious for valuing younger versus older employees. And your CMA survey results actually reinforce this fact. I think there was a stat in there that 44% of marketers believe that age based discrimination is tolerated in their workplaces more than any other form of discrimination. So like all forms of discrimination, not only is ageism harmful to a workforce and a work environment, but it's actually bad for business.

 

00:08:43:18 - 00:09:09:05

Marc Cooper

There are hundreds of studies that show that a diverse and multigenerational workforce is more productive and produces better business results. This value can only be achieved by creating inclusive environments. Our industry has the capacity to reframe and change the narrative. Our community, we've always been trendsetters and we have a really great opportunity to sink our teeth into this and make some impactful societal change.

 

00:09:09:12 - 00:09:40:03

Anne Marie Wright

You know this great example from the Publicis group? They have been labeled or certified as an age friendly employer by the age friendly Institute out of the U.S. and they've taken a lot of really great steps to add age into their DEI policy. Publicis has in surveys there are they're very intentional about the experiences of their older workforces.

 

00:09:40:09 - 00:10:04:14

Anne Marie Wright

They survey them to understand how integration, mentorship programs needs can be incorporated to ensure that they're retaining and hiring in shock older workforces. And then just a number of mechanisms that they've been experimenting with to do so. So the Publicis Group is actually a great example in our industry of somebody who has embraced age.

 

00:10:04:20 - 00:10:26:05

Alison Simpson

Anne MarieI love that example because while ageism is rampant across marketing communications and the CMA research, we found that in agents sees the definition of what it was to be older was shockingly young, like your late thirties. So the fact that publicists are seeing this as an opportunity and a differentiator and Mark, to your point, it's really good business.

 

00:10:26:05 - 00:10:32:00

Alison Simpson

So they in many ways they have a competitive advantage by being among the first to identify this.

 

00:10:33:02 - 00:11:04:08

Marc Cooper

You know, they absolutely do. And, you know, when we look at ageism and ages views in the marketing communications work that we do, numerous studies show that audiences are vastly underrepresented in our advertising communications. While the 25 to 39 year old cohort is highly overrepresented. Equally, older adults are vastly misrepresented and misunderstood, oftentimes made to appear incompetent, especially when it comes to technology, or perhaps they're referred to as being set in their ways.

 

00:11:05:06 - 00:11:27:10

Marc Cooper

To quote a Forbes magazine article, The World of Old for Teasing is a hellscape full of reverse mortgages, erectile dysfunction pills and bathtub that will kill you. I think we would all agree that the world of stock photos is also filled with stereotypical images of older people doing yoga or running on a beach. Now there are new image banks that exist.

 

00:11:28:13 - 00:11:57:05

Marc Cooper

Even Getty is getting into the space by improving the images. We just have to source the right images that represent the audience that we know. There's an excellent report from WPP Australia. I think it's called Secrets and Lies. Google it, download it. It's great. It's got some really insightful information in there and it lays out who this new age in consumer is and is not, and their spending patterns, which is maybe the most important piece.

 

00:11:57:22 - 00:12:22:01

Marc Cooper

In fact, it even calls out that 79% have moved on from brands that are no longer fulfilling or meaningful. So that's a huge opportunity. If you get it wrong and an even bigger opportunity if you get it right. A recent piece in The Atlantic shares research to say that people feel 20% younger than their real age. So understanding this is really important to marketers.

 

00:12:22:06 - 00:12:28:19

Marc Cooper

We have to make sure that we're talking to people in the way that they see themselves, not in the way that the rest of us see them.

 

00:12:29:02 - 00:12:59:15

Anne Marie Wright

Outside of the communications side of things. The desire or need to focus on product service solution development for aging population is a real opportunity too, because lots of times we think about products, services, solutions in terms of, you know, moms who are 25 to 45. There's a world of opportunity to develop products, services, solutions. We're going to talk about a few examples of them in a few minutes.

 

00:12:59:21 - 00:13:27:20

Anne Marie Wright

For people over 50. The cosmetics industry, the beauty industry for a long, long period of time ignored this part. We can give you dozens of examples of how people like Vogue magazine and certain cosmetic brands are developing and focusing on not just communicating to women who are older, but developing new products, services, solutions for this audience in very meaningful ways.

 

00:13:28:15 - 00:13:52:00

Alison Simpson

You know, market every year, sharing some hugely compelling stats. So an $8 trillion industry in the US alone and the fact that 79% of that market will move on from brands that no longer they see as fulfilling, meaningful, irrelevant, what more convincing reasons do we need to give brands and the marketing community to embrace this incredible business opportunity?

 

00:13:52:20 - 00:14:05:12

Alison Simpson

It's a bit mind boggling to me that with the size of the audience and their spending potential and their loyalty to brands that actually recognize them, it should be some low hanging fruit for businesses.

 

00:14:05:21 - 00:14:36:10

Anne Marie Wright

100%. Alison in as our jobs as marketers are to meet our unmet needs to identify and service consumers at all phases and stages of life and the opportunity to open up new worlds, new audiences, innovation pathways for people who are aging. The opportunities are tremendous.

 

00:14:36:10 - 00:14:44:12

Alison Simpson

Anne Marie, I know you we've talked before and there's a whole industry around age tech, so there certainly are some venture capitalists that are starting to see the offer.

 

00:14:44:13 - 00:15:17:00

Anne Marie Wright

Yes, 100%. And I'll give a one of my favorite examples is for many years, women's health has been misrepresented as well. So we're starting to see a collision between aging, healthy aging and women's health. So I feel like menopause, for example, which has been misrepresented, misunderstood by marketers, by industry in general, is one of these explosive fields. Femtech for example, in general, especially related to aging, is explosive.

 

00:15:18:07 - 00:15:41:01

Alison Simpson

So great examples. It's always helpful for me and our listeners to have our topics and certainly true and brought to life by understanding how some brands and organizations are really starting to embrace it and succeeding. So I'd love it if the two of you could share some case studies or examples of what organizations are doing that are targeting consumer aging.

 

00:15:41:01 - 00:15:42:15

Alison Simpson

Consumers successfully.

 

00:15:43:06 - 00:16:05:08

Marc Cooper

Well, you know, the good news is that there are some that are doing a great job. So we're not starting from scratch here. One that comes to mind for me is the dove Pro page campaign. They actually first launched those products with a campaign featuring women over 50 showcasing real beauty. Breaking that industry standard of only showing young models.

 

00:16:05:19 - 00:16:33:14

Marc Cooper

So this is a really great flip on the typical beauty product targeting aging women with anti-aging products. Instead, they're obviously showing pro age products. And their tagline for this campaign is Beauty has no age Limit. So if you get a chance, I'd look up the Dove Pro campaign. And another great example is Saatchi Saatchi. I think it's called Keep on Rolling for Toyota Venza.

 

00:16:34:03 - 00:16:54:04

Marc Cooper

The campaign cleverly subverted expectations by showing older adults leading rich, active lives, contrasting with their children's assumptions that they were leading dull lives. In fact, I think those children were at home on their computers, living their life through social media instead of living their life in the real in the real world.

 

00:16:54:06 - 00:17:26:21

Anne Marie Wright

One that I like from the financial service industry is from Merrill Lynch. And they created something called the Seven Life Priorities Program. And what they did was understanding this aging population and understanding that 80% of their business came from people over 65. They started to think about money management in very different ways and supported not by just the conversation on how to manage your money.

 

00:17:26:21 - 00:18:04:17

Anne Marie Wright

It's how to manage your life until you're going to be over 100. And thought today's five year old is projected to lift the 100th. So what Merrill Lynch has done is said, how do you help? How do we help our clients plan for the 100 year life versus how do we help our clients plan for retirement? And so they're reframing how those what's often times called the third or fourth stage of life, how Merrill Lynch can service their clients in in more than just financial ways.

 

00:18:05:10 - 00:18:30:22

Anne Marie Wright

The other one that I think we all love is we all know Phil Knight and what he did for Nike and what he did for running. And he's a lifelong runner and he is now, I think, into his sixties and he wanted to create a running shoe that kept him moving, even though his body was aging, even though his body was changing.

 

00:18:31:05 - 00:18:57:12

Anne Marie Wright

It would be easy to say, I'm creating a running shoe for somebody who saw that, that that's all what he said is, I want to create a running shoe that keeps me moving. And so it was really the shoe was created to accommodate for issues of aging bodies, but it was positioned as something to keep me moving as opposed to something that I need to do because I can't run anymore.

 

00:18:57:15 - 00:19:01:22

Anne Marie Wright

It was a very positive spin on the proposition.

 

00:19:02:11 - 00:19:11:11

Alison Simpson

Those are great examples. Now, the media also has a really important role to play on the story. You're starting to see the media start to address this issue as well.

 

00:19:12:08 - 00:20:01:17

Anne Marie Wright

Yeah, one of the ones I love is with Chris Hemsworth, the big Marvel actor who in his late thirties was identified to have the biomarkers of Alzheimer's. And he embraced that to say and produce a documentary series called Limitless, which is really exploring how he can continue to live better longer. There's a documentary on Netflix which really looks at something called Blue Zones, and these are countries where people have lived longer, better, and the factors that are play into what a longer, healthier life looks like.

 

00:20:01:18 - 00:20:22:20

Anne Marie Wright

That is a series on Netflix today. I guess the last one that I really like too is I don't know if everyone's seen the new supermodel Syria, where they've taken the four supermodels. I think we all know who they are and and really told the story of their lives and how they're thriving into their fifties, how they're going to continue to thrive into their 60.

 

00:20:22:20 - 00:20:33:10

Anne Marie Wright

So it's been a very, very positive story on how the recreation and the disruption of aging is being taught today.

 

00:20:34:01 - 00:20:57:20

Alison Simpson

Those are great examples, and I think it's Forbes that have done it. 50 top women over 50 and just celebrating all of the success and continued ways that people of all ages are contributing. But instead of recognizing only at the young scale the thirties under thirties in the forties, under forties, to actually see 50 over 50, 60 to 60 over 60 like that feels like we're heading in the right direction for sure.

 

00:20:59:14 - 00:21:18:12

Alison Simpson

So there is no doubt from the insights and the data that both of you are shared with us that there is a tremendous opportunity by addressing aging in our community. So I want to make this super actionable for our listeners. What can marketers and communicators do to start to make a real difference today?

 

00:21:20:00 - 00:21:54:21

Anne Marie Wright

I think I want to separate Alison, how they can make a difference in their workplace, which I'm going to make a brief comment around and then Mark will talk about how in their work they can make a difference. We're very passionate about the subject of ageism because marketers in fact have the power to make change. It's a very unique form of discrimination because everyone, regardless of their race, age or gender, sexual orientation, will go through the process of aging.

 

00:21:55:15 - 00:22:29:10

Anne Marie Wright

It's the most universal and unavoidable aspect of the human experience. So if we acknowledge that ageism exists and we acknowledge that we're all going to face it at one stage or another. The more that we can understand and change that by simply creating awareness of it in our day to day and in our workplaces, the more we can eliminate this last form of discrimination, that means including age in DEI policies.

 

00:22:30:02 - 00:23:02:21

Anne Marie Wright

We don't have the numbers in Canada, but we know that over 80% of Global DEI policies do not include age. It's a really simple thing to do. Number two, look at retaining older workers in the workforce and learning about the benefits of multigenerational workforces. There's tons written about the benefits, the higher return on investment, the higher productivity levels of multigenerational workforces versus one dimensional workforce sources.

 

00:23:03:12 - 00:23:07:08

Anne Marie Wright

So those resist those with the things I think we can all focus on quite readily.

 

00:23:08:14 - 00:23:33:20

Marc Cooper

And of course, in the work that we actually do, we can expand our mindset around having multiple segments for our products and services or solutions. Ask ourselves how our brand can promote our brand proposition can be stretch to embrace new audiences. You know, this is what Dove did with their pro age campaign and with the products that they developed and we can understand who we're talking to.

 

00:23:34:04 - 00:24:11:21

Marc Cooper

I think knowing that 50 plus is not a single audience, you know, that's how we've traditionally grouped this demographic together. But 50 doesn't equal 60, which doesn't equal 70. And getting our heads around that and then speaking to those audiences appropriately is a good starting point. And then authentically represent older audiences in the communications, not based on those stereotypes and it's a great start if we build those multi-generational workforces as marketers and advertisers, because we then see these different perspectives from our colleagues.

 

00:24:12:02 - 00:24:25:10

Marc Cooper

So when we go to put them into the communications that we're building and we're putting out there, we're not playing to the stereotypes anymore. We're playing to the people we know. We're playing to the environment that we're working in. So I think they are actually quite closely tied together.

 

00:24:26:21 - 00:24:43:05

Alison Simpson

Really terrific advice. And you both have shared some really valuable insights tonight. So before I let you get on with your day, I'd love to close off the discussion by having each of you share one last piece of advice for our listeners and what they can do to help address the ageism issue. What's the first thing you would have them talk?

 

00:24:44:17 - 00:25:18:10

Anne Marie Wright

One thing is think stage, not age. When you remove the barriers of age, just view. Demographics mean less than her mindset and what people's needs are. A 70 year old can be just as vibrant as a 40 year old. And if we're building brands around true needs and true mindsets and true behaviors, I think we open a world to think differently about what our opportunities are.

 

00:25:19:09 - 00:25:33:22

Alison Simpson

I think that's such a great example. And I look at my own personal self, like in my twenties, I was in a lot, a lot worse shape than I am in my fifties. So ages very arbitrary in so many ways. Well, Mark, we'll let you close things off.

 

00:25:35:18 - 00:26:04:19

Marc Cooper

So I think you could ask us about our Ageless Universe initiative. It's something that third state recently launched and we really can't do what we were trying to do without the support from our industry. This is a multi-phased campaign with the goal of dismantling ageism in the workforce and in the work we do. So you can learn more at ageless University HCA and sign our pledge, which you can also just reach out to us, ask us questions.

 

00:26:05:10 - 00:26:32:09

Marc Cooper

The two of us are more than happy to talk about what this industry can do. We know that this industry has such a capacity to make change on this really important issue, perhaps one of the last areas of discrimination. And if we can try to beat this together as an industry, we're going to be in really great shape in the work that we're doing and in the way we do work going forward.

 

00:26:32:18 - 00:26:48:10

Alison Simpson

A great note to end on Marc and Ann Marie, thank you so much for all of the valuable insights that you share today and for helping bring more awareness to this really important issue in the marketing community. I'm very much looking forward to how we can advance this in the months and years ahead.

 

00:26:49:04 - 00:26:54:03

Anne Marie Wright

Thank you so much for having us. Alison, it's been a real pleasure.

 

00:26:57:07 - 00:27:11:20

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