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EP27 - Integrating AI in Non-Profit Marketing with Allen Davidov and Kelly Hardy
03 Sep 2024
00:33:23
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with two members of the CMA's Not-For-Profit Council, Allen Davidov, Senior Vice President, Sales Practice & Marketing Leader, Environics Analytics and Kelly Hardy, Vice President, Marketing & Communications, YMCA Canada. They explore the unique opportunities and challenges of leveraging AI in non-profit marketing, discuss strategies for preparing for the AI-driven future, and share valuable advice for marketers looking to embrace this transformative technology.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:08 Announcer Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, KMA CEO Alison Simpson.
00:00:22:10 - 00:00:46:01 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into the world of charities and not for profit organizations to discuss how they can leverage the transformative potential of generative AI as the marketing landscape continues to rapidly evolve. Charities and not for profits, can often find themselves facing some pretty unique challenges when it comes to adopting cutting edge technologies like Gen I. With limited resources and a focus on mission driven work.
00:00:46:03 - 00:01:08:07 Alison How can these organizations harness the power of AI to amplify their impact and drive success? To help us navigate this meaty topic, I'm joined by two members of the CMAs not for profit council, Kelly Harding, as the vice president, marketing communications for YMCA Canada, and Allen Davidoff as senior vice president, sales practice and marketing leader, and Varonis analytics.
00:01:08:09 - 00:01:40:14 Alison Both Kelly and Allen bring deep marketing and leadership expertise. They've also held senior roles in nonprofits, and their first hand experience makes them perfectly suited to discuss how charities and not for profits can explore and implement new technologies like not. They'll share some of the ways they're doing this, along with some valuable lessons learned throughout our conversation. Today, we'll explore the various ways in which Gen AI can help nonprofits scale their marketing efforts everything from automating mundane tasks to enhancing content creation and volunteer work.
00:01:40:16 - 00:01:51:16 Alison We'll also discuss the importance of upskilling teams, developing AI policies, and addressing concerns around authenticity and transparency. Welcome, Kelly and Allen. It's really great to have you both here today.
00:01:51:18 - 00:01:52:21 Allen Thank you for having me.
00:01:52:22 - 00:01:53:21 Kelly Thank you.
00:01:53:23 - 00:02:13:14 Alison Now, I'd like to kick things off with the question. And, Kelly, I'll get you to take the lead on this one. As marketers with experience and not for profits. What role do you see Gen AI playing now? What have been your early experiences in leveraging it? I'd also like to hear what advice you would give to those who might be a little bit reluctant to start using AI.
00:02:13:16 - 00:02:45:14 Kelly So I think the generative AI is going to have a monumental shift on the marketing and communications function in an organization, as well as us as marketers ourselves. Just how quickly this technology has developed and what it's capable of now. I think particularly in charities and nonprofits, you're really going to be able to extend the capacity of your teams in a way that our resources probably would never allow us to, unless you have expertise right at your fingertips.
00:02:45:16 - 00:03:05:16 Kelly It can be a copywriter. It can be a brainstorm or a planner. It can fulfill almost or many of the roles that a creative agency might have just to get you started. It's not at the point where it's replacing any human jobs right now, but it's really going to, I think, enhance and be a companion to us as marketers.
00:03:05:18 - 00:03:30:13 Kelly As you start to dive into the world because it's new and it's also you're adding your information into these large language models is really important to understand your organizational policies around the use of AI and protecting your private, confidential, proprietary business information. I like to use AI, as I said, as my editor. So sometimes my sentence structure clarity isn't there.
00:03:30:14 - 00:04:07:03 Kelly So I still write stuff. Well, say can you just review this for grammar, clarity, sentence structure or make this shorter? I hadn't done anything in generative AI before December, and then I took a course through the Canadian Marketing Association that was led by Karla Congson. That really demystified what generative AI is about. So I think that as many of us are going to be at the early stages of AI, I'd encourage a great place to start is just take a course that helps you understand what it is, the role of it, the limitations, the cautions and the Canadian Marketing Association offer some great courses on that as well.
00:04:07:03 - 00:04:36:14 Kelly So ones like AI for nonprofits and Hands on Efficiency and Impact training, that's led by Emily Baillie, and that's suited for nonprofit professionals of all levels of experience who are looking to expand their skill set and gain insight into how I can be used in nonprofit marketing. Karla, who I mentioned is the CEO and founder of Open Gravity, has been a great resource for me, and she worked with the CMA, available On Demand ten video based module on generative AI for marketers.
00:04:36:14 - 00:04:57:00 Kelly So that's a really great course because it's not just about generative AI, but how you can leverage it in your role as a marketer. They also have AI and the Future of Work in marketing and executive overview, which is also led by Karla. And that's tailored more for executive marketers to really understand the complexities and opportunities for AI driven marketing.
00:04:57:02 - 00:05:19:02 Kelly And you can also engage with Unlock the Power of AI and how I can make you a better marketer. That's left by Dave Burnett and that's tailored for marketing for practitioners with 2 to 5 years of experience looking to expand their skill set and embrace the future of AI enhanced marketing. So I think really the key message is this is going to be a skill upgrade that all of us is going to have to make.
00:05:19:04 - 00:05:31:18 Kelly whether or not you like the idea of AI is going to become part of what we do now. If you haven't sort learned the time is now and the CMA offers great resources to do that.
00:05:31:20 - 00:05:51:12 Alison Kelly, thanks so much. It's really great for me to hear that the training through the CMA that you took was a key part of your journey, and I really appreciate the shadow. I also know that our listeners are going to definitely find a compelling the idea of gen AI helping you scale you and your team so you can be even more productive and manage very complex and workloads.
00:05:51:12 - 00:06:00:03 Alison And the ability to multitask with fewer hours in a week is going to be a compelling benefit for all of us. And I'd love to turn it over to you to answer the question as well.
00:06:00:05 - 00:06:25:06 Allen Thank you. And when I look at I just see it as a marketer, I see that as another tool in my toolbox. So looking at from from what my organization is trying to do or trying to achieve, it's looking at what are the different tools at my disposal. And we live in this great age where we have so much rich data and great technology that allows us to actually do things on our own, sometimes without overspending in a lot of different areas.
00:06:25:06 - 00:06:58:08 Allen I kind of look at it as an opportunity to look at the goals that my team has and what I'm trying to achieve, whether it's a campaign, whether it's creative, whether it's summarizing things, putting out more content and seeing where it can kind of help. So I know Kelly spoke to some of the mundane tasks, but looking at and evaluating your own campaigns and looking at the different videos you've put together, there's great uses of AI just to summarize things for you, to help you just bring things down and allow you to really expedite some tasks really quickly to get things moving.
00:06:58:10 - 00:07:23:04 Allen So I see there's great uses of it. No differently than, you know, obviously shameless plug from the data analytics side. It's a great tool on my toolbox that any marketer can have. And look at how you build your own personas and connect with them. AI in the same fashion gives you opportunities to look at how do you upskill and how do you also extend sort of the use or expansion of your team and the volunteers that you use?
00:07:23:06 - 00:07:43:15 Allen So I think AI's definitely an opportunity, but I would ask everyone to kind of start, I think Kelly spoke about some great CMA courses and great resources, but just look at it from the perspective of what am I trying to accomplish? And what can I help me? So getting started and kind of dig into some of that is kind of starting from that standpoint.
00:07:43:17 - 00:08:07:08 Alison For anyone that is worried about AI replacing their jobs, it's certainly not going to do that. And when we were talking earlier, we all talked about it's not about gen AI replacing our jobs. It's about marketers who are digging in and experimenting and learning and getting upskilled in joining AI that ultimately will replace our jobs. If we decide to, that we can opt out of this new technology.
00:08:07:13 - 00:08:25:16 Alison And you've both given so many benefits of why we should be open to experimenting and exploring, and that can really help remove some of the mundane tasks that are part of anyone's job, make us more scalable and also help stress test some of our thinking and play the important role of editors. So really great examples to kick off the session.
00:08:25:18 - 00:08:42:06 Alison Now, with the not for profit and charitable experience that you both bring to the table, I'd love to hear a bit about the unique opportunities that you see for not for profits and charities to leverage. Gen. AI, particularly when they often have smaller budgets and smaller teams.
00:08:42:08 - 00:09:03:09 Kelly I think that, as we've discussed, AI can be a series of AI powered expertise and experts at your fingertips. So and I think a lot of times, and especially charities where you have limited resources, you don't have all the people in your team that, you know, bigger corporations may have. And I think even bigger corporations never have all the skills and expertise they want.
00:09:03:11 - 00:09:28:10 Kelly So generative AI is going to give us opportunities to bring those skills in-house, at a cost that would never be attainable if you actually had to hire each of those or outsource consultants to help you with that. I think that what you'll have to do is figure out what type of expertise you want and how to work with, you know, the AI model that you're going to work with to leverage that properly.
00:09:28:10 - 00:09:52:10 Kelly But right now it can help with copywriting. It can help with data analysis. So if, you know, sometimes we'll just do surveys to try to understand how people are thinking about things or reacting to things. The quickness, which means they can analyze verbatim comments. And we know how expensive quality surveys can be because of that human effort required to analyze the verbatim comments.
00:09:52:10 - 00:10:11:22 Kelly Well, now that's accessible to most of us to be able to do that. So I think that's what's really exciting is not about especially at the YMCA right now. It's not about replacing their jobs, but helping us. And it's not about making us work. Longer hours is about making better use of the hours that we have and just listening to expertise.
00:10:11:22 - 00:10:14:22 Kelly We need to have access to before.
00:10:15:00 - 00:10:22:06 Alison Making better use of the hours we have, is such a great way to sum it up. Kelly, thank you so much. Now I'll I'd love you to share your thoughts.
00:10:22:08 - 00:10:46:11 Allen Yeah. So I think added to what sort of Kelly has said there's an opportunity to upskill yourself. And I know this has been mentioned in terms of what does my team need to sort of farm and what's the best plan to get them there, and where do they get the resources? So using AI as a search and a planning tool is a great resource for a lot of charities, especially medium and small ones that don't have a lot of opportunities.
00:10:46:13 - 00:11:13:19 Allen Or this, the background in terms of H.R. And why not? So just looking at what are the new marketing skills that are out there, can I help you search those function like those skill sets, and put a plan together to prompt you to go and read this article or, you know, register for this class. So there's a great opportunity to use it as a development tool for a lot of different marketing teams on not for profits as well as, you know, summarizing and using it as a creative resource.
00:11:13:19 - 00:11:34:08 Allen So if you have some ideas and I know we all, you know, get behind a whiteboard and throw ideas together and brainstorm with our team. So it's another opportunity to use the tool to say, you know, here's some ideas. Put them all together, search what's out there, and then come back with, you know, more refined ideas that you then as a team can take a little bit further.
00:11:34:10 - 00:11:52:10 Allen So again, it's a great searching tool. And a great development tool that a lot of groups, a lot of marketing teams can utilize. And I've seen it done and we are using it on Environics in terms of from those standpoints as well, it can keep you on task and it can really help you search for different things that you're looking for and put it all together.
00:11:52:12 - 00:12:19:14 Alison That's great. Now you both have given our listeners lots of reasons to want to experiment and try. And for those that have already embraced gen AI to continue their learning and experimentation, we all know that not for profits typically are not early adopters of new technologies. So for our listeners that are coming from the charitable and not for profit space, what would you recommend they do to prepare for the significant changes that gen AI is bringing?
00:12:19:20 - 00:12:22:11 Alison And I want to why don't you kick off this answer?
00:12:22:13 - 00:12:47:23 Allen I would say that a lot of that are in the not for profit space, are not too far behind. there was a recent stats can report that came out that said 1 in 10 companies in Canada, corporate companies or all companies in Canada intend to actually implement AI in this next year. And in terms of Canada and the global sort of environment, where 29th out of 31 that's sort of implemented currently.
00:12:48:01 - 00:13:05:19 Allen So the not for profit space, I would say, is not too far behind. Everybody's trying to get a sense of what is it, how can it be used, and how could this benefit my organization? How can this benefit me as a marketer in my team? So what I would say is there's it's never too late to jump in.
00:13:05:20 - 00:13:23:19 Allen I think it's great to spend some time and find some time, as we all do, as as marketing leaders, to kind of see what's out there and talk to people and look at use cases and again, bring it back to what my team or my organization trying to achieve. And how could this help benefit us and expedite things?
00:13:23:23 - 00:13:44:10 Allen So from mundane tasks all the way to upskilling, I think not for profits, there are different use cases that they can kind of fitted into, but it's never too late to try anything, right? Just like when I think about social media and, and when that came on board, a lot of people were trying it and some people were more hesitant and eventually got on board.
00:13:44:10 - 00:14:05:02 Allen But it was never too late. It's just a matter of what's the right fit for your organization and what's the right use case for your organization. And also from a policy perspective, like being more aware of things that are important from privacy and whatnot. So, I think it's never too late, I guess. And at the same time, it's just you got to jump in to try.
00:14:05:02 - 00:14:07:14 Allen You got to play and figure it out.
00:14:07:16 - 00:14:22:23 Alison And thinking of it more as play instead of this overwhelming, intimidating new thing is a great mindset to bring into it as well. Now, Kelly, being in the not for profit space with your current role would be great to hear what else you would add to Alan's great advice.
00:14:23:01 - 00:14:45:17 Kelly Yes, and I think as charities, we often don't have the resources to take risks in the early stages of technology where we know there is that refinement. And, you know, the version one of something, if you look at, you know, ChatGPT when it was released, not that there's a lot of different between how it was implemented, but some of the technologies, we just can't use our resources to take risks on them.
00:14:45:19 - 00:15:04:09 Kelly With AI, we know that we're going to be adopting it don't always be expert as any time new technology comes. So if you look at the evolution of digital marketing, we don't need to have experts, in-house SEO experts, digital marketing, meta experts. We don't need to have them in-house because we know that there will be experts there to help us.
00:15:04:09 - 00:15:26:09 Kelly So I always want to ease everybody's mind to know the experts and people who do this for a living. We'll be able to help us understand the use cases for our charities and nonprofits, and who knows where this is going to go in the future, because we're at a certain place in time right now. But maybe our service delivery is going to be able to be delivered by AI in the future.
00:15:26:09 - 00:15:54:00 Kelly We're not there yet, but I think one of the things that charities and nonprofits should be thinking of in the adoption of this technology is understanding where it's going, and it's really hard to keep on top of it sometimes because things change so fast. So one thing we've done at YMCA Canada, because there are risks and there's a lot of sometimes what's going to happen when these AI's, if they ever get that independent general intelligence where they can actually make decisions independently of humans.
00:15:54:00 - 00:16:24:17 Kelly And that's scary scenario. We are nowhere near that right now, but understanding the potential pitfalls of that technology. So sometimes if you don't have that expertise in-house, that might be a skill you look to add to your board of directors. We've also encouraged learning of our staff to keep up with this. So we actually at Y Canada had a book club where we read a book called The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleyman, and he really outlines and it's not going to be necessary.
00:16:24:18 - 00:16:49:04 Kelly It's a technical book that's not necessarily about charities and nonprofits, but just more on the state of AI and the threats to the world and how you can mitigate them. So having discussions around things like that, how are those threats and risks applicable to your organizations? Do you have policies? These policies, whatever you put in place today, you probably going to have to rethink it six months from now as the technology and new capabilities become available.
00:16:49:08 - 00:17:09:07 Kelly So I think that's one thing, is just learning about the risks and uses of it. You don't necessarily have to be doing them, but having that general sense of the impact AI is going to have on your organization, and if you don't have that capacity in-house right now, there's people out there that can help us with that.
00:17:09:09 - 00:17:26:07 Alison Kelly, thanks so much. That's great value to our listeners with all of the great resources. And I love the book club idea as well. Now, Alan, do you have any additional advice for any marketers who might be listening today? And they're still a little bit overwhelmed or panicked or just unsure of where to begin exploring gen AI?
00:17:26:08 - 00:17:51:13 Allen Right. So I think Kelly's given some great advice and some great resources. But just as an executive, I think as a marketing leader, you kind of just have to jump right in and start playing and understanding the tool. I e we have a committee that actually put together that kind of looks at different use cases and talks to the organization and comes to different town halls with ideas and showcases it and allows the teams then to kind of take it away and kind of play with it a little bit.
00:17:51:15 - 00:18:20:19 Allen So I think we all kind of have to jump right in and and try it out and see what the limitations are and, and see how it could fit for your organization. And I think without doing that yourself, it's hard for you to direct your team to actually different use cases as well. So I think as leaders, it's upon us to try these things, to read up on them and get familiar with them in order to kind of help drive that through an organization or your own team.
00:18:20:21 - 00:18:40:05 Allen So I think the easiest thing is dive right in, test it yourself, see how it works, try it for use case. If you know you join a podcast like we have today and just get the show notes and see how we could summarize it for you. So simple. Something simple as a task like that can start to showcase what are those opportunities for you?
00:18:40:09 - 00:19:02:23 Allen If you have to write something and, you know, put some bullets together on, here's a blog post that I'm thinking about. You know, ask gen AI if you can add some additional thoughts or what what the gaps are in your thinking. See what it comes back with. So keep on just testing little ideas and little things with it and see how we can help you continuously progress and just read a lot of information on it.
00:19:02:23 - 00:19:30:01 Allen I spend a lot of time on podcasts and reading different articles on it, and listening to different people outside of just courses, just to see how different organizations sort of have adopted it or used it in different instances to say, can I use that little nugget and bring it back to my organization? Can I test it myself? So I would just say, start with jumping in yourself, get familiar with it, and then just get your team playing with it as well and coming back with ideas to the table every single time.
00:19:30:01 - 00:19:44:22 Allen So whether you put a committee together and that's, you know, an organization committee or you do it with your own team and just bring back nuances every week and ideas and nuggets, I think that's the right way to start. And that's the best way to kind of learn yourself.
00:19:45:00 - 00:20:10:05 Alison Many thanks. And with all the great resources that you and Kelly are both sharing, what we'll do to make it easy for our listeners is add links to the different resources that have been highlighted and the names of the books as well. So now there are lots of amazing benefits and lots of compelling reasons why marketers and not for profits, and charities and marketers in any industry really need to embrace and understand and start working with Genii.
00:20:10:07 - 00:20:27:09 Alison It's far from perfect. There are always risks and watch out for any new technology. So what are some of the key lessons learned that both of you have experienced or watch out for, not for profits that you would give as they start to begin to leverage on Kelly?
00:20:27:13 - 00:20:48:18 Kelly I think for, biggest thing right now is understanding what happens to the information that you're putting in to the tool that you're using. There's some ways that those are private and that that information isn't shared into a larger database of information, but some of them aren't. It becomes part of that learning and accessible to other people eventually who would be using it.
00:20:48:18 - 00:21:12:06 Kelly So I think that's the number one thing. And if you're not sure there's, you know, resources on the web that you can find, I have found that the paid version of tools are often smarter than the non-paid version. So that's one thing that we've been we're at our office where we use Microsoft 365 platforms of the Copilot integrations.
00:21:12:06 - 00:21:31:14 Kelly In the paid version, we've gotten subscriptions for all our staff because that actually does offer a different level of privacy. My my general rule of thumb is if I wouldn't put it on our public website, I'm not going to put it into AI because I just assume anything going into AI is going to be public information at some point in time.
00:21:31:16 - 00:22:02:23 Kelly Then I think also understanding just the impact of AI generated content on how your brand is represented. So, you know, are you at a place where you're comfortable using AI generated images, which as charities sometimes loses that authenticity that's so important to the work that we do and the storytelling that we do. But sometimes, though, depending on the needs that your organization addresses, it may not be appropriate to take photos of that in AI.
00:22:02:23 - 00:22:24:09 Kelly May actually be able to help you tell your story in a different way. So I think really just understanding, the comfort level with AI generated content, I think eventually us as a society will become more accepting of it. I think right now there's some thoughts like, oh, that's not a center to us. We shouldn't be using it in our public facing materials.
00:22:24:11 - 00:22:35:13 Alison that's such a smart rule of thumb that you've given us as well. If you wouldn't put it on your public website, then you probably shouldn't be feeding it into ChatGPT either. So, Alan, what would you add?
00:22:35:15 - 00:22:54:01 Allen I would definitely highlights, and reinforce the privacy aspect. So putting things in there that are private and, you know, could be harmful, I think is definitely something that you should stay away from and put some policies around it and give it some thought. I think the other added things is it's not always correct. It's not always right.
00:22:54:03 - 00:23:16:21 Allen The answers that you get back are not always perfect. So it's that's something that we all got. So we used to, you know, putting in a search function in Google, you'll get answers and you think it's always right. But it actually is not always correct. So being very careful about what you put in there and what you get back and evaluating what you get back and having that human element and and reinforcement I think is necessary for us.
00:23:16:21 - 00:23:34:04 Allen But it's coming to it from that mindset that it's an ad, it's a feature that you can help move you along in a process. But it's not always perfect. So it's, you know, mathematic skills might be great, but some of it's formulas it will offer how it speaks about certain things are off or it's English might be a little bit off.
00:23:34:06 - 00:24:01:17 Allen So having coming into it with that mindset is it's not perfect and you really got to be aware of those things. So Kelly talked about being authentic. So understanding that it might not capture your voice in the perfect way and then not have perfect grammar is something to definitely be aware of as a marketer, as a writer, as someone who's putting something together, a blog post or looking at a campaign and, and copy, you always should just be aware of that.
00:24:01:17 - 00:24:08:11 Allen So again, it's a great tool to help you get started and move you along. But it's not the final solution to something.
00:24:08:13 - 00:24:29:10 Alison That's so true, but only is it not perfect. Sometimes it's out and out wrong. We can't get lazy about it. We absolutely need to take the time and apply the due diligence to make sure that it's accurate and factual, and also reflective of your personal tone and values and voice and your brand's, values and voice as well.
00:24:29:12 - 00:24:47:21 Allen It is always learning, and the beauty of AI, and we've been talking about this. It's always learning as you put more things in there as others do as well. So it gets to a better spot. But you're absolutely right. The the fact that it that you need that sort of human element always overseeing it kind of speaks to it'll never replace us.
00:24:47:21 - 00:24:53:01 Allen It needs us to keep on. And it should be seen as a tool, not a replacement.
00:24:53:03 - 00:25:18:08 Alison Absolutely. Now, we've talked a lot about gen AI, and it's certainly, however, the biggest, most dominant trend in our profession today. But it's not the only trend. So our profession is absolutely continuing to evolve at warp speed. And we all have very, very busy day jobs. So I'd love you both to share, some tips for what you do to stay current with the latest trends.
00:25:18:10 - 00:25:38:15 Kelly Kelly Jones As you said, the whole industry evolves rapidly, and a lot of that has to do with the marketing technology that we use and where I think as a charity, where you might actually see the first impact of AI if you're not using it personally, is that the tools and systems that you use are now starting to integrate AI into their platforms and solutions.
00:25:38:15 - 00:26:08:06 Kelly So we've seen that with Adobe. We see that with things like Canva, which I know probably a lot of charities are using. So what I try to do is understand what they're offering now, through AI enhancements with their platform. And AI is the hot topic right now. So there are plenty of webinars that are offered by the vendors that you're working with that I'd encourage you to actually attend those because those are the tools that you're using, and they're just there to help you use their tools better, more efficient, and do more with them.
00:26:08:07 - 00:26:11:17 Alison Thanks, Kelly. That's terrific advice. Ellen, what would you add?
00:26:11:19 - 00:26:32:05 Allen I would say that just listening to different podcasts and marketers and what's out there when going to networking events and talking to people, listening and sort of asking questions about what they're doing and how, what they're using. I use those moments and sort of reading up, you know, in different tech sections, at different newspapers about what's coming up in different campaigns.
00:26:32:10 - 00:26:53:10 Allen I use those opportunities and those sort of tools to help me upskill and sort of just stay on top of different things. So there's great podcasts such as this one to talk about the different tools and tech that's coming up in different practices. There is great articles and blogs that are being posted on LinkedIn and other sources that will allow marketers just to stay what's on top.
00:26:53:10 - 00:27:13:11 Allen And then Kelly, throughout the great idea and the webinar, I think there's so many great webinars being done by different vendors about all these different things. And that's something all those things that I know that I spend time reviewing, whether I wake up and I go for a run or I'm sitting on a trainer on a bike or whatever I'm doing, I think on the weekends, just reading up on all these things.
00:27:13:11 - 00:27:30:08 Allen I think as a marketer, it's a great opportunity for us to sort of just stay on top of these trends. But there's a lot of great people talking about a lot of great things. So we're just asking more questions and being more curious, I think is really behind it all. And how do we stay current and up to date?
00:27:30:10 - 00:27:51:18 Alison I have a similar approach to you all on, a lot of podcasts accompany me on my runs and help distract me from the actual sweating and the hard work run. So multitasking on a different level. So you both have outstanding careers. Such an amazing experience, and I'd love to close off our discussion today by having each of you share one piece of advice for.
00:27:51:18 - 00:28:01:23 Alison Or it can be for not for profit markers. It can just be for any marketers who are looking to embrace gen AI and drive success in their organizations.
00:28:02:01 - 00:28:24:05 Kelly So I think I'd like to give my advice to the people who haven't started yet, because I think there's this scariness aspect to it, like in this panel, like, oh, everybody's uses it. I'm not, I assure you, you're not the only one who has not started using it with these technologies is you've actually been designed in a different way than a lot of technologies, in that they're designed to be used based on just natural conversational language.
00:28:24:05 - 00:28:47:02 Kelly So there's actually not a big learning curve to get started with it. And as you basically have conversations with the machine, they'll start to ask you questions to help refine the information that you're getting out of it. So I think the one advice is if you haven't started, just pick a tool chat. The free version is a great one, and you don't even have to be a work related thing.
00:28:47:02 - 00:29:09:14 Kelly Ask it to help you plan a seven day vacation to Europe. And if you want to hit this end. And I think what really brought me into I was once you start to see the quality of the information and answers in the language, that starts to come back, because it's nothing like anything we've ever used before, and you'll see that it's really not a difficult technology to adopt.
00:29:09:14 - 00:29:33:18 Kelly When you hear that the next version of this is out it, it doesn't impact how you input into it. It's getting smarter on how to respond to what we're inputting into it. So as we've said, is to just play. And then as you get a little more comfortable, pick a task. So maybe you do want to generate some copy for a social media post, but the more specific you can be in your ask, the better.
00:29:33:18 - 00:29:47:21 Kelly So like the tone of voice, the length, what action you might want to drive, who it's for, the more information you can give it around the specific outputs you're looking for, the better results you're going to get. But just start playing in there.
00:29:47:23 - 00:30:05:19 Alison I love the start playing and by the way, plan a wonderful vacation in here if there's a very aspirational element to that. So we have any listeners that are still a little bit reluctant. You've given them, a great added incentive to get in and start playing. So, Allen, how would you wrap things up?
00:30:05:21 - 00:30:31:02 Allen Stay curious. I think as marketers, we're probably entering or I've heard we're entering into the golden age of marketing, where we have all this rich data, where we have all this great technology and all these things at our disposal that are not overly expensive, that are giving us the opportunity to do things better, to reach our customers, to reach our donors, to reach people that we didn't think we could or understand them as well as we thought.
00:30:31:04 - 00:30:53:02 Allen But really, it all starts with curiosity. And as a marketer, being curious about how you can do things better, how you can improve things can really lead to testing new things. Like, I like getting into data, like getting into different platforms that can deliver a better measurable result and measuring results. So I think it's just a matter of staying curious.
00:30:53:02 - 00:31:11:02 Allen You know, we've talked about play a lot over this podcast and just playing a little bit with the tools to understand how are they relevant to your organization? What are some of the pitfalls? What are the some of the do's and don'ts? And start small and expand a little bit. And then also talk to your network about how they are using this tool.
00:31:11:02 - 00:31:28:14 Allen I think we all as markers have great networks. We're all part of councils and committees. Like, I love my time on the NFP Committee on the CMA and some others that different boards and committees that I'm on. But I'm always asking questions of others, whether it's Kelly or other members, to say, how are you using this tool?
00:31:28:14 - 00:31:54:15 Allen Have you seen this tool? And that's part of the great part about joining the council on the CMA is like, you have that opportunity to discuss and also share and learn. So there's a lot of great content out there. And I think as a marketer, I think I would just say be curious about it, read it and just try to go seek it every day to improve the work that you're doing, improve the team that you're working on, and sort of grow it and gather and kind of move forward and and get to your goals.
00:31:54:15 - 00:32:07:07 Allen Because we all have lofty goals, our revenue goals or our donor goals or, you know, fundraising goals. So it's just there's a lot of great tools out there. And as a marketer, I think we have the opportunity to do some really great things.
00:32:07:09 - 00:32:30:02 Alison That is very well said. Curiosity for any marketer at any stage in our career is absolutely a mission critical skill. I also like you're talking about we're entering the golden age of marketing. This is a profession that I love. I know both of you love it as well. It is not an easy profession. It's demanding, it's challenging, it's constantly evolving, and there's so much possibility in it.
00:32:30:02 - 00:32:56:15 Alison And I truly do believe that with things like Gen, AI and just all of the change we're currently going through, it really is setting us up for a truly golden age of marketing. And I appreciate you ending the this wonderful conversation on that note, Alan. I know you're both incredibly busy, and I really appreciate the time you've taken today to share your experiences and your wisdom and great advice with all of our listeners.
00:32:56:17 - 00:32:57:07 Allen Thanks for hanging.
00:32:57:11 - 00:33:02:11 Kelly Out. Thanks for having us.
00:33:02:13 - 00:33:15:03 Announcer Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the The CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.
EP26 - Unlocking B2B Growth Strategies with Eric Tang and Mary-Jane Owen
20 Aug 2024
00:31:44
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, hosts a discussion with two members of the CMA's B2B Council, Mary-Jane Owen, Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and Eric Tang, Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Together, Mary-Jane and Eric redefine what brand-building means in 2024, explore effective and efficient brand-building strategies, and explore the challenges B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:21 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.
00:00:22:22 - 00:00:56:16 Alison In today's episode, we're diving deep into the realm of B2B marketing, focusing on the critical roles that brand building and digital marketing play in generating leads and ultimately in driving sales. Joining me today are two exceptional guests and also members of our CMA's B2B Council. They both bring a wealth of experience and diverse perspectives. So I'm joined by Mary-Jane Owen, who is the Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and is renowned for her data-driven approach to digital marketing, as well as her ability to consistently deliver impressive ROI for her clients.
00:00:56:18 - 00:01:28:07 Alison Eric Tang also joins me, and he is the Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Eric is known for his expertise in crafting compelling brand narratives and strategies that really resonate with B2B audiences. Together, Mary Jane and Eric will help us redefine what brand building means in 2024. They're also going to share examples of creative and cost effective brand building tactics, and explore the challenges that B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing.
00:01:28:09 - 00:01:52:19 Alison We're also discussing how to reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey, and to leverage the power of both brand building and demand generation to drive sustained business growth. So whether you're a seasoned B2B marketer or just starting your career, this episode is absolutely going to be jam packed with valuable insights and actionable advice that you can apply to your own organization.
00:01:52:21 - 00:02:06:21 Alison And while we're focusing on B2B, it will also have a lot of really valuable insights for marketers in the consumer and other fields as well. So on that note, I would love to welcome Mary-Jane and Eric to our episode today.
Mary-Jane Thank you Alison.
00:02:06:23 - 00:02:08:08 Eric Thank you so much.
00:02:08:10 - 00:02:20:06 Alison Mary-Jane and Eric. I'm going to kick off by asking you both, what is your definition of brand building and digital marketing when it comes in the context of B2B? Mary-Jane, why don't you kick things off?
00:02:20:08 - 00:02:46:07 Mary-Jane Well, I have to say that when it comes to the B2B space, brand building hasn't really been very well understood and there's often been a real reluctance to invest in those longer term marketing initiatives and a focus rather on like diverting marketing budget to the more short term lead generation type activities where the ROI was much more immediate.
00:02:46:09 - 00:03:20:23 Eric I want to build on what Mary-Jane was just saying, and by just looking at the notion of brand building, you know, traditionally, you know, brand building is often equates to storytelling. And if we just use that lens, then yes, Mary-Jane is absolutely right, it's really hard to demonstrate quantitatively. How do you measure the impact of storytelling? But if you broaden the lens of brand building to other aspects, then it starts getting interesting and much more measurable, which I'm sure today we'll talk more about.
00:03:21:01 - 00:03:36:13 Alison Thank you very much. I want to ask a follow up question on that. You both mentioned that historically, it's been a harder sell to B2B to invest in brand building. Are you starting to see that change, and what do you think some of the key drivers behind that are?
00:03:36:15 - 00:04:02:15 Eric To what I was trying to say earlier, if you look at brand building, strictly storytelling, then yes, there has been, you know, even just past few months, every conference I attended, every conversation I had, people were still having this conversation or struggle between putting money in HN , which is short term, which is important, especially in this economy, versus, you know, staying on top of people's mind and mindshare.
00:04:02:17 - 00:04:33:13 Eric However, if you look at brand building as a combination of storytelling, which is what you're saying to people and how you show up, and then the experience that your products and services are delivering to people and the functional, emotional and high values that you're delivering. Plus how you do, how you're actually behaving as a company, which, you know, we call it the business actions.
00:04:33:15 - 00:04:59:16 Eric Then all of a sudden a lot of these things are very much measurable, especially, you know, for instance, your customer feedback as a result of the product or service you deliver, the piece of content and the relevance, you know, that as a result of your leadership. And your business action as a result, you know, and the feedback that all your stakeholders are giving you. All these are constantly being measured.
00:04:59:21 - 00:05:14:10 Eric So it doesn't matter whether you are an SMB or whether you're a multinational company, you know, that formula applies. And if people start thinking about brand building in that context, then we start changing the conversation.
00:05:14:12 - 00:05:43:12 Mary-Jane And I think the other aspect is to understand that the landscape is dynamic and changing. And in fact, we have to continually be adapting in terms of our demand generation and brand building activities. And so, for instance, I mean, just in the last little while, we've seen the introduction of AI. So a whole new set of tools that we need to figure out how we employ these tools to be better marketers.
00:05:43:14 - 00:05:51:07 Mary-Jane Also, with regards to the economy, you know, we, depending on your industry, we could be entering a phase of low growth
00:05:51:07 - 00:05:51:23 Mary-Jane Or even no growth.
00:05:51:23 - 00:06:05:11 Mary-Jane So the landscape is shifting. So to be able to maintain our competitiveness, we really need to be doing a better job of putting the human into the equation in the marketing that we do.
00:06:05:13 - 00:06:34:19 Eric That's so important, Mary-Jane. And, you know, if you also think about the context of B2B marketing in general, the timeline often, that sales cycle, that timeline is sometimes much longer than what, you know, people experience in the B2C world. So all of a sudden, your customer journey is quite lengthy. You know, sometimes it could be up to, you know, 18 months or longer depends on depends on your category and depends on what you're trying to promote,
00:06:34:19 - 00:07:12:01 Eric right? So what Mary-Jane just said in terms of that human aspect and the stakeholders, what they are encountering during, let's just say that 18 months, the external environment changes all the time. Their concerns and their response to what is happening in the environment they're operating in changes all the time. So we need to be nimble about, you know, how we use a blend of the storytelling, the experience, the demand gen to be, you know, on top, to stay top of mind and consistently being relevant to these stakeholders.
00:07:12:03 - 00:07:36:13 Mary-Jane Going a little bit deeper with that, like one of the challenges with B2B, there isn't a single decision maker. You've got sometimes it's a committee. You've got a number of different people that are going to be involved in making a decision, and they're all coming at the opportunity, your proposition, your product or service from a different lens, from a different standpoint.
00:07:36:13 - 00:08:07:06 Mary-Jane They have different concerns, and they have different needs. And I mean, conceptually, we understand when we're building out these lead generation finals, but today it's not even a funnel, but where we really need to be better and and take the time to be more competitive is understanding the emotional element. Understand the underpinning needs, the human, the human that's behind that screen, that's evaluating your product.
00:08:07:06 - 00:08:33:14 Mary-Jane And that will allow us to solve the problem of low conversions that a lot of people, a lot of businesses are experiencing, low conversions from their, demand generation activity. And one of the levers to access better performance out of that is taking the time to really get to know each one of those decision makers, each one of those stakeholders in a really human, personal way.
00:08:33:16 - 00:09:06:16 Eric I have a real life example I can share that in a really reflects what Mary-Jane was saying. We have worked with a global predictive analytics company for a long time. And predictive analytics, you know, is something that's really conceptual. And in this case, this particular client works a lot with financial institutions. And as Mary-Jane mentioned, you know, the dawn of AI, not dawn, but the evolution of predictive analytics, all of a sudden, it's not just a conversation between data scientists.
00:09:06:18 - 00:09:54:01 Eric It's becomes a conversation between risk managers, data scientists, marketing, legal, etc., etc. because they all bring different concerns to the table and every decision made for choosing this technology, it's definitely this committee at at the core, and they all bring different aspects. So when we were talking to this client with a guiding, this client, you know, all of a sudden we're looking at the B to C to B model, meaning okay, at the end, your financial institution is making your client, the financial institution is making decisions based on your technology and powered by your technology that would impact their retail clients, their retail customers.
00:09:54:03 - 00:10:31:10 Eric You know, it could be someone who's seeking a loan. It could be someone who is managing debt, whatever that might be. And you can imagine, you know, the rich conversations in terms of targeting, legal, targeting risk managers, targeting IT, targeting marketing, all of these become, you know, part of the storytelling, part of experience. And when an expert like Mary-Jane comes, you know, and talk about lead gen she is targeting these same audience like I am but with different tools and different techniques.
00:10:31:12 - 00:10:51:19 Eric And still, you know, we are together joining hands building, you know, creating this optimum environment so that by the time Mary-Jane does her targeting, these people would be receptive to whatever information and propositions that this demand gen journey is, is trying to achieve.
00:10:51:21 - 00:11:20:18 Alison So you've both talked a lot about how it's not a quick decision. It's not an individual decision. There are a lot of decision makers with very different backgrounds required to ultimately make the sale. There's also a lot of influence around it. And then one of the other things that you've both touched on is the human element. And certainly we as a profession have talked a lot about B2B and B2C, and the reality that you're both highlighting is, it's all human to human, and that's such an important part of doing this well.
00:11:20:19 - 00:11:30:22 Alison So why do you think B2B brands often struggle to determine what the right mix between brand building and digital marketing investments are?
00:11:31:00 - 00:11:55:04 Mary-Jane So one of the challenges is that, like it's not clear that brand building delivers an ROI in the short term or even in near-term, right? And for B2B companies, and we work a lot with like small to medium-sized companies, they just have not understood the value of investing in brand building.
00:11:55:06 - 00:12:22:12 Mary-Jane They've got limited budgets and they're very skewed towards where shorter term priorities lead generation. In fact, a lot of them would consider brand building is kind of unnecessarily fluff, you know, not worth spending money on as like a smaller business. And part of the challenge is that, like the B2B marketing lens is worn by people who've never worked in advertising or in marketing outside of their industry.
00:12:22:14 - 00:12:53:10 Mary-Jane So they have neither the training or the education to be able to have access to kind of the fundamentals of brand building. They don't speak the language. But then additionally, the B2B value proposition has always focused on, you know, rational factors, rational justifications, the idea that decision makers would not be influenced by emotion, that it has to be a purely rational argument,
00:12:53:12 - 00:13:18:20 Mary-Jane ou know, for the for the product or service. And in fact, research is showing that that is not true. We know it's not true for B2C and it's not true for B2B either. In fact, there was some research that was done by Wunderman Thompson, and they showed that emotional factors are a are as much a factor in decision making for B2B as too B2C.
00:13:18:21 - 00:13:50:03 Mary-Jane And in fact, the perception of your brand drives 93% of your market share, right? And in the buying decisions, when they took a look at the factors, two thirds of the decisions were hinged on an emotional connection and only one third, by a rational connection? So everywhere we're seeing mounting evidence that brand building is an inspiring emotion, is much more effective than simply delivering
00:13:52:21 - 00:14:16:07 Eric Mary-Jane, I couldn't have said it better. And I also want to add, you know, build on what you just said, I heartedly, wholeheartedly agree, you know, with with that perspective. And I think what you just shared applies also to larger companies. And there's an other aspect that we haven't touched on, and that is sometimes the business strategy, the brand strategy and the structure of the company don't align.
00:14:16:09 - 00:14:37:12 Eric What I mean by that is we have, you know, the good fortune, you know, this year in the B2B Council to interact with the creative counsel within CMA. And so, you know, one of the team members is from Telus and she is head of brand. And she so you can tell Telus understands brand, invests in brand, has someone that owns it.
00:14:37:13 - 00:15:04:20 Eric So that's that's a very clear alignment versus some of the clients that I've worked with. One one client may put brand under marketing. Another client may put brand under communications. And sometimes you know it's quote unquote shared responsibilities. And so that is what I mean by the structure and the strategy alignment. You know, if that's not in place, then very often, you know, different teams will look at each other.
00:15:04:21 - 00:15:33:00 Eric Who's owning brand? But the truth is, you know, if we accept the concept of storytelling, product, service, experience and business actions are all part of ingredients. It's part of the formula for building brand. Then, yes, you know, it is a shared responsibility. It needs to be clearly defined and you need a leader to drive all that to make sure every aspect of this is consistent.
00:15:33:02 - 00:15:39:01 Eric So that is something I don't see on a regular basis. When it happens is magical.
00:15:39:03 - 00:16:00:20 Alison It's so great to have that actual research quantifying the important role that emotions play in B2B. Marketing decisions and business decisions as well. So now I'd love to hear from both of you, how can B2B marketers reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey?
00:16:00:22 - 00:16:21:22 Eric Sure. I think in terms of, you know, Mary-Jane already mentioned the traditional idea of funnel is very linear. And I just came back from some training programs, and one of my colleagues just said, well, the funnel is now become a pancake. Everything is squashed. And, you know, all the touchpoints are, you know, happening at the same time.
00:16:21:23 - 00:16:55:21 Eric And so if you're looking at the marketing funnel in the traditional sense, you're not going to be, you know, staying relevant, you know, at all moments in time. And also in terms of reimagining the funnel, it's very much in concert with what is happening to your industry. So I'll give you an example, just by way of observation. If you look at the current, you know, leading Gen AI plays, you have open AI that, you know, obviously as represented by ChatGPT, you have Gemini.
00:16:55:21 - 00:17:18:12 Eric You know, that is you know, Google's, you know, value proposition. And then you have Anthropic and risk solutions, and Claude. Those are just three examples, three well-known examples. And their environment when it comes to, you know, their marketing funnel, their biggest number one issue is trust. And so you can't just say, oh, do it. Address trust at the beginning or at the later end of the journey.
00:17:18:12 - 00:17:43:15 Eric It's throughout that journey and their brand building, you know, they're not looking at, oh, how many promotional videos I should do. How many you know content pieces I should do. One of you know, people would not associate that immediately, but one of their brand building key components is the demonstration of the governance. And normally people go how was governance navigating the brand world.
00:17:43:17 - 00:18:09:09 Eric But in this scenario it very much is. And they are overtly talking about how their governance and their governing bodies can help build trust. You know, with the enterprise customers, they're trying to attract, not just, you know, the general public users, because if they're talking to banks, if they're talking to hospitals, if they're talking to public sector, they actually need, you know, to demonstrate that trust.
00:18:09:14 - 00:18:38:06 Eric And not to mention, you know, trying to balance between being regulated and staying in front of regulators to demonstrate that, no , we got this, we are doing this, and we're moving at a speed much faster than any government bodies can. So that's just another example of showing how in the fast paced, I'm using this extreme example, because extreme examples often can demonstrate why the traditional model, you know, needs to be reimagined.
00:18:38:07 - 00:19:04:16 Eric And so if you're going to be a new entrant, you know, a quote unquote SMB or startup trying to, you know, seek funding, trying to get heard in the shadow of ChatGPT, Gemini and Cloud. What are you going to do? You know that that whole traditional funnel just doesn't seem to apply anymore. So that's just, you know, one example of how I see things are evolving at warp speed.
00:19:04:18 - 00:19:29:06 Mary-Jane I'd like to add to what Eric just said, and I'm going to shift a little bit. So taking what he said, the other point that I really want to come back to is this idea that the funnel is no longer a funnel, it's flattened. And for B2B, it's so instinctive for them to want to move towards a close.
00:19:29:11 - 00:20:20:20 Mary-Jane Like every touchpoint is moving towards a close. And that's no longer relevant today to be effective, and re-looking at this buyer journey. Right? It's way less selling and way more relating. Right? Rather than building towards a close at each time, at each touchpoint, rather thinking in terms of a service role, in the service of helping that user on your website get what they need at that step, right, rather than moving towards the close, asking permission in terms of the conversation, so that the person at the other end, that buyer feels heard and they feel that they got what they needed out of the react, out of the interaction.
00:20:20:22 - 00:20:30:14 Mary-Jane And that is a really different mindset. And what you typically find built into these demand generation initiatives.
00:20:30:16 - 00:20:56:02 Eric Yeah. And if I can just add one more thing and absolutely agree, Mary-Jane, and I just don't want our, our audience to think, oh, brand building is this giant investment. And iajust giant endeavour. It's giant in the sense of you absolutely need to take the time to think about it and, you know, build on what Mary-Jane is saying, you know, how do you change the mindset from, you know, funnel to pancake?
00:20:56:08 - 00:21:19:16 Eric How do you change the mindset of what is valuable? How do you invest in experience as much of the storytelling as much as your action, and I'm using the big example, but very cost effective example. And also, by the way, that doesn't mean the traditional tactics and traditional approach, you know, just go out of the window. So it's it's just a matter of complementing each other.
00:21:19:18 - 00:21:51:09 Eric So in the course of our last season, you know, with the B2B Council, some colleagues brought to our attention, you know, the power of TikTok and how IBM, of all companies, are using it. And we just thought, oh, we never imagined that platform would be something that IBM would consider, or be beneficial. And when you actually follow the channel, when you look at the content they put out, it is quite indicative of what they're trying to do.
00:21:51:11 - 00:22:11:16 Eric As you can imagine, TikTok videos are not big production. In fact, they shouldn't be, right? They're a bit more scrappy, you know, a bit more authentic, a bit more authentic, a bit more in the moment. So I'll give you two examples of what they did and which is quite interesting. One is the most traditional one in that they were at South by Southwest.
00:22:11:18 - 00:22:35:06 Eric So clearly they want to associate the brand with creativity and with, you know, future thinking. They use real people on the floor, IBM, as they call them. You know, in this case a prime market manager. And just do a TikTok video and you say, okay, well, that you know, what's what's so special about it. What's so special about it is how they show up.
00:22:35:10 - 00:23:03:17 Eric You know, they're using a creator as the interviewer and they're using the product marketing manager as a speaker, and they're using language that absolutely anyone can relate to. And that speaks volume to what Mary-Jane was saying. The human side. You know, the the IBMer was saying, hey, I'm a mom, I'm a working mom. And if AI could just sort of all of my household management duties, that would be my dream.
00:23:03:19 - 00:23:34:15 Eric And so all of a sudden it's very relatable. And so that's one example. The second example is they use deliberately TikTok humour, you know, really quote unquote rough and ready animation. But it's not because they can't afford, you know, big beautiful production. This is deliberate. You can tell. And it's a short video, TikTok humor, so often you can tell, oh, this is driving to a very specific audience and that would resonate with that specific audience.
00:23:34:16 - 00:24:03:03 Eric And the third, going back to AI, is they are using these little clips, you know, to explain AI to people and just keep reiterating, keep it simple. So I can only, you know, I'm an outsider. I don't run that program, but I can only imagine a) they're trying to reach, you know, at a younger generation workforce. And in, in this case it's so important that to touch to start, you know, grooming and be relevant to the next generation workforce.
00:24:03:05 - 00:24:30:09 Eric Extending their investment in a conference, in this case South by Southwest to a much larger audience and get more impact out of it and them making themselves just shake out the, you know, big blue, kind of, brand perception and, and just and just be humorous, just just be TikTok-ready. So all of these things contribute to, to me as a user, as a viewers experience of the brand.
00:24:30:11 - 00:24:49:00 Alison Those are great examples, Eric. And I really like how it's a great demonstration that doesn't have to be big budget to build your brand. They have absolutely focused on being very relevant and added a very human element to what they're doing. So thank you for bringing to life a lot of what we've talked about today with those very powerful examples.
00:24:49:02 - 00:24:56:02 Alison So what advice do you have for B2B marketers who are really looking to elevate their craft and seize missed opportunities?
00:24:56:03 - 00:25:09:14 Mary-Jane So I would say, I would say, you know, if you're a younger person early in your career, you know, you're already on a path where you've selected, you know, what you feel is going to be your subject matter expertise, right, your skill set.
00:25:09:19 - 00:25:53:15 Mary-Jane And so you really need to understand that talent and brains are a dime a dozen. So for you to really advance, you need to to invest in making yourself the best that you can be in that area. But I think the other thing, and this is recognizing that we live in such a dynamic and changing world, is that really maintaining a broad curiosity in life and be willing to invest in broadening your knowledge across a lot of different areas beyond the the skill set that you're becoming an expert in, because it's that broader perspective that will bring to you the opportunities yourself to have creative insights.
00:25:53:17 - 00:26:14:15 Eric Yeah, Mary-Jane, what you just said reminds me of, a very good visual. One of my SEO clients, shared with me a long time ago. He calls it the T shape. So you have to be as broad as you need to be in the environment that you're operating and as deep as you need to be in terms of your subject matter expertise.
00:26:14:21 - 00:26:47:08 Eric And I think in today's world, like you said, many, many people start with being a subject matter expert, that that is a normal, career path. What is challenging now is how broad do we need to go? And I think that's where we're seeing a lot of signals in the B2B world, that creativity is actually much more valued and much more embraced, as reflected by, say, you know, a lot of the national and international awards, including, you know, our very own CMA Awards. And why?
00:26:47:09 - 00:27:25:09 Eric Because there's a lot to be learned from other disciplines. I'll give one final example, and that's an example actually Mary-Jane and I used it in our blog for the CMA, and that is, a campaign launched by Roland, which is an enterprise printing technology company, and it's a UK campaign. Now, traditionally, and I have worked with printing companies, traditionally, when you have a printing technology, you go to trade shows, you have white papers, you go knock on doors and tell people, you know how amazing, you know, this feed and feeds and whatever you can do with this technology. None of that is going to go away,
00:27:25:09 - 00:27:58:02 Eric you still need to do all those things. But what they have done is they literally borrowed a song sheet from traditional B2C marketing. They are trying to demonstrate the superiority of that printing technology by addressing the, what they call 50 Shades of Ginger. Looking at how we can demonstrate the gradient of this technology through storytelling from a consumer lens.
00:27:58:04 - 00:28:28:12 Eric So they engaged influencers to talk about how redheads growing up, you know, have a lot of challenges, you know, being accepted because they are minority from from that perspective. And, but they have fun conversations, right? You know, oh, yeah. You know, I, I don't know if I was a ginger or a redhead, or what I call myself? And then they, they have, you know, influencers going on television talking about this technology because they produce this book of 50 Shades of Ginger.
00:28:28:14 - 00:28:55:14 Eric And from there they create an event and bringing all the, you know, people with ginger coloured hair, hair together to an event and talk about their shades and talk about, oh, how I can replicate that shade and that becomes this campaign on broadcast on, you know, morning television, in mainstream newspapers, which no print technology company traditionally would dream of getting that kind of attention.
00:28:55:20 - 00:29:09:20 Eric Now, of course, that example is so good that it won a Drum award in the UK last year. And but that is a really good example to show how both B2B and B2C can learn from each other.
00:29:09:22 - 00:29:30:23 Alison That is such a fun example. I have a couple of gingers in my life and I'll definitely be sharing that story with them. So you both have very impressive and enviable careers. So we'll step away from the B2B conversation now, and I'd love to end by having you each share a piece of advice for our listeners. I know that they would really enjoy being able to learn from each of you.
00:29:31:01 - 00:29:57:18 Mary-Jane A single piece of advice I would say. I mean, we all wear blinders, right? It what? It's what allows us to be really laser-focused. But of course, in being laser- focused, we miss out on what is in the periphery, in other words, the blinders that we wear. So I'd invite each of us to really challenge yourself, to be curious about what's on the other side of the blinders that you're wearing.
00:29:57:20 - 00:30:30:00 Eric Mine is very similar to Mary-Jane, you know, Mary-Jane, you used the word curiosity, which I use for myself and my team a lot. And for me, it doesn't matter where you are at in your career journey, curiosity and constant learning is really something that I value. And I encourage, my team and whoever works with me, you know, to to embrace, because, you know, to Mary -ane's point, we all have blinders and the environment changes so quickly.
00:30:30:05 - 00:30:43:12 Eric The last thing we want is to have a Kodak experience. So we we sometimes we just don't know what's coming. And you know, we really just need to pay attention to what is evolving.
00:30:43:14 - 00:31:03:13 Alison And that is great advice. Our profession is going through absolutely tectonic shift. So anyone that is going to continue to thrive absolutely has to be open to change. Embrace that. And curiosity is an absolutely mission critical skill. So great advice and thank you to the two of you. I also want to thank you for a really great and insightful conversation.
00:31:03:13 - 00:31:11:08 Alison I've learned a lot, and I know our listeners have as well, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedules to join us today.
00:31:11:10 - 00:31:12:04 Mary-Jane Our pleasure.
00:31:12:09 - 00:31:13:09 Eric Thank you so much.
00:31:13:11 - 00:31:14:12 Mary-Jane Thank you Alison.
00:31:14:15 - 00:31:17:23 Eric It's been great fun and great honour to to have this discussion with you.
00:31:18:04 - 00:31:23:19 Alison Thank you.
00:31:23:21 - 00:31:36:11 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.
EP17 - Driving Growth through Data Democratization with Scott Megginson
30 Apr 2024
00:29:51
In this episode of CMA Connect, CMA's CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Scott Megginson, President of Kantar Canada, to discuss how marketers can stay ahead in a rapidly changing business landscape. Scott shares his perspective on the seismic shifts in consumer insights, the most significant changes in Canadian consumer behaviour, and how data democratization and AI are transforming the world of research.
00:00:03:06 - 00:00:23:04 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business news with your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.
00:00:23:06 - 00:00:50:17 Alison In the rapidly evolving business landscape, marketers are constantly seeking ways to stay ahead of the curve and drive truly meaningful growth for their organizations. But what if one of the keys to unlocking these new opportunities and gaining a competitive edge lies in the democratization of data and the adoption of innovative technologies? Today, I'm joined by Scott Megginson, president of Kantar Canada and a very seasoned insight leader with over two decades of experience on both the client and the agency side.
00:00:50:22 - 00:01:17:19 Alison Scott's also a regular guest speaker and coach for the research analytics program at George Brown College. Scott's here to share his perspectives on the seismic shifts that are happening in consumer insights and in the market research industry. We're also going to discuss how Kantar is leading the charge by making their vast troves of brand data accessible to marketers everywhere and at no cost, which is certainly a remarkable opportunity for brands and businesses and a bit of a surprising approach for a research company.
00:01:17:21 - 00:01:34:16 Alison So from navigating changing consumer behaviours to leveraging AI-powered tools and platforms, Scott is here to offer a wealth of knowledge and practical advice for marketers who are really looking to elevate the role of insights within your organizations and drive real business impact. Scott, it's truly a pleasure to welcome you here today.
00:01:34:21 - 00:01:43:09 Scott Thank you. Alison. I hate to admit it, but it's actually over three decades of experience and I'm going to date myself there. But thank you for making me a bit younger.
00:01:43:12 - 00:01:45:04 Alison You're aging very gracefully.
00:01:45:06 - 00:01:46:03 Scott I'm trying.
00:01:46:05 - 00:01:52:18 Alison So I want to start with what do you see as the most significant shifts in the Canadian consumer behaviour and attitudes right now?
00:01:52:20 - 00:02:16:01 Scott You know, it's an interesting question. Kantar isn't a public opinion company, but we do a lot of work monitoring consumer trends. We have a group within the company that manages our, runs our Canada Monitor. You know, if you're three decades like me, you might remember the yankelovich monitor. And this is just an evolution of that same, the same tool.
00:02:16:01 - 00:02:34:21 Scott And it's, really to monitor social trends, with consumers. I mean, this is opportune. We're going to be diving into this at the CMA CX event in June. We actually have our expert coming up to talk about some of these trends and how it impacts marketers. But, you know, when you think about top concerns of Canadians right now, they shifted.
00:02:34:22 - 00:03:00:08 Scott They shifted during the pandemic. And right now what we're seeing won't be a surprise - inflation, the economy, health care, housing costs and climate change, in that order are the top five. But there are a lot of implications for marketers. When we dig into it, Canadians are really in a frustrated state. They're frustrated. It feels like a stacked deck. They're impatient to get ahead right now.
00:03:00:10 - 00:03:17:23 Scott You know, they've been waiting and waiting and they're impatient to move ahead. Almost half believe that they'll become rich in their lifetime. And that was about a third of people in 2018 before the pandemic. So I don't know if people are buying more lottery tickets or waiting for the big ship to come in, but they want to be given a win, too.
00:03:17:23 - 00:03:42:22 Scott And that's something to think about with, for marketers. They're uninspired by innovation. It's something that we're seeing as well. They're uninspired by marketing as well. They're looking for relevance through emotion, value and control. Those three areas. So what they're really looking for is a reason. It's about giving them a reason. A higher proportion about quarter, don't pay any attention to advertising right now or claim to.
00:03:43:03 - 00:04:09:18 Scott And maybe it's more. So they're just not feeling they're getting the relevance or messaging. And another thing is they're looking for self care. And there's a whole set of implications here for people that work in wellness and health areas that could do a lot with it. But all brands can in a way because, you know, it's not just the wellness we think about with diet and other areas, but they're working with self care through things like novelty and nostalgia.
00:04:09:21 - 00:04:35:19 Scott We actually saw people are nostalgic for the pandemic, if you can believe that. Social connection, and they really just need a break and get off the treadmill a bit. And, you put these things together and it's really supported by, economists are now saying that Canada's productivity is, it's measured at point 3% versus 1.5 in the US. So it's, productivity is super low in Canada.
00:04:35:21 - 00:04:51:04 Scott But there are great opportunities for marketers. You know, marketers can give hope. They can inspire innovation. They can help people achieve their mental and physical health goals as well. So, you know, when there's a problem, there's a solution. There's a lot marketing can do for this.
00:04:51:06 - 00:05:11:12 Alison And that's very insightful and very instructive to know from a, certainly from a marketer and a brand perspective. It's a bit sad to see, certainly the level of productivity in Canada from a competitive sort of North American and global scale. That's certainly something that we, as a marketing profession, but every business really needs to be able to address.
00:05:11:13 - 00:05:22:01 Alison When you talked about a third not paying attention to advertising, I mean, that's been one of the challenges of marketers for a long time. But have you seen that increase where even more people just aren't paying attention?
00:05:22:03 - 00:05:40:17 Scott Yeah, I mean, in this particular measure, it has been an increase and it was about a quarter. But we have other data sources, other measures that we take that would look even higher than that. And, you know, a lot of it's a clutter and the noise, a lot of it's just the the challenges that media has, with ad blockers.
00:05:40:17 - 00:06:00:04 Scott And there's just so many ways to avoid advertising in general. But when you do have a captive audience, that's a problem. You know, if a quarter or more people aren't paying attention, all because of the cynicism they have towards the advertising, that's an issue. And that's gonna be a big issue to deliver messages. So it wasn't a surprise.
00:06:00:04 - 00:06:06:08 Scott It's been going this direction, but it is an opportunity to deliver better messaging to consumers.
00:06:06:13 - 00:06:18:00 Alison And when you were sharing some of the more recent findings, the one that certainly surprised me the most was people feeling a little bit melancholy and almost wishing back for the days of the pandemic. So what surprised you the most?
00:06:18:02 - 00:06:52:03 Scott So I'm a Gen-Xer, and a leading Gen-Xer, so, I grew up in office environments and and things like that. And I mean, as a person, it just befuddles me that people don't want to go back to the office and such. But as an employer, you know, I look at our younger employees that we have as well, or people with families and lifestyles changed so much during that, like just all the concepts of pet ownership and parenting and, and, dry cleaning, just everything else really, really changed.
00:06:52:03 - 00:07:12:16 Scott And that's why companies like Lululemon did so well. They reinvented workwear with leisurewear. You know, as a person, my age, I have trouble getting my head around it. I couldn't wait to get back. But it's pretty clear to see with how slow Return-to-Office has been with people, and some of the things that people are longing for are the different social connections.
00:07:12:16 - 00:07:30:14 Scott I think everybody out on their street, you know, having a drink together, at social distance, and there's a whole new level of social connection that started during the pandemic that's starting to get disrupted, and people are just missing probably how they learned to cope with it in a way, having that taken away from them, and their lifestyle.
00:07:30:15 - 00:07:34:11 Alison We joked about the new normal, but the reality is there's no such thing as the new normal.
00:07:34:16 - 00:07:39:22 Scott There's no normal. We'll find out eventually. Maybe, but not for a while, right?
00:07:39:23 - 00:07:58:10 Alison Now Scott, your experiences on both the agency and client side of delivering insights and doing that across a really vast range of industries gives you such great perspective. So I know our listeners would certainly benefit from your advice on how insights teams can be a more powerful growth driver for their organizations.
00:07:58:12 - 00:08:19:10 Scott And, you know, I've seen a lot in my years, and I started on the agency side, for eight years, and then I moved to the client side for 11. You know, I worked in CPG at both Warner Lambert and PepsiCo, and then came back to the agency side. A lot of people don't do the full circle. So I have seen a lot internally how client organizations with research and value it.
00:08:19:12 - 00:08:42:08 Scott And then now I have the privilege to work in so many different clients and so many different cultures, and you see a lot as well. I mean, a lot of that's my personal view on it. And I'll get back to that. But we've done a lot of work on this. So we have a whole consulting arm of Kantar, and we've been doing research in this area for a while now, and there is a gold standard study that BCG did.
00:08:42:10 - 00:09:03:01 Scott And that was the whole piece about moving from Insight to foresight, back in the, you know, the early 2000s. And that was held up for a long time. And it was a call to action for internal researchers to to really move to the, the what now, what you know, and so what's, in all those as opposed to just the what.
00:09:03:03 - 00:09:25:16 Scott But things have moved rapidly, and that's really seen as table stakes right now. So we did a big study and we, it was called Insights 2020, it was in the Harvard Business Review. We've had a few of these studies published there, and we actually conducted research with over 10,000 people at different levels in different sectors and organizations. And it's over 60 countries, including Canada.
00:09:25:18 - 00:09:49:00 Scott We had a lot of interviews here in Canada as well. And, what we did was, we divided, we divided the results between high performing companies and all the other companies. And then we had the, because it was claimed, we had NYU do a validation with financial results and it was pretty accurate, actually. People who said they're a high-performing company were.
00:09:49:02 - 00:10:11:22 Scott And you that's nice. We'd all like to be. But so we felt good about the segmentation that we had. There were a few things, like a couple of rules of three that we found out here, as key implications. And one of them was that the high-performing companies that were achieving this great growth were consumer-centric, it was consumer-centric growth, you know, putting the customer, consumer in the middle of it.
00:10:12:00 - 00:10:37:09 Scott And what they did was - one, they delivered a total experience to customers. And think about how we bring our brand promise together, with our customer experience and the whole cycle. And then think about how the customer experience is informing the brand promise and what we advertise, and tell our customers or consumers what to do. And companies don't do this very often.
00:10:37:09 - 00:10:56:22 Scott I mean, I've seen so many examples where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and it's it's different departments, it's different agendas, it's different budgets. Whereas top performing companies have a seamless flow between the two. You know, I'll give you another plug for CMA CX, because, you know, I think you're going to cover a lot there.
00:10:57:00 - 00:11:24:00 Scott But we saw this behaviour and the high-performing companies were four times more likely to have this, this total experience, than the other companies. So that was pretty big. Another one was customer obsession. And customer obsession starts at the top of the organization. You need your CEO, your CFO, your head of sales, your HR, your supply chain, everybody at the top and all the way through down
00:11:24:00 - 00:11:50:01 Scott the organization has to be obsessed with the customer and the consumer. This is critical. Also leads to a purpose-led organization, which, you know, every person at a checkout counter to the driver to, you know, the people manufacturing the plant are all serving the same purpose. And it's the customer obsession. Again, the companies that did this, like demonstrated four times more than all the lower-performing companies.
00:11:50:03 - 00:12:17:14 Scott And then the last one, and this is one that applies to our research in particular, it's strategic leverage of insights and analytics. Right. And we call it the Insight Engine. And if you want, I can unpack that a little more because it has three components to it as well. But so what do you do. So what differentiates the high performing organizations with Insights Engine is that they have a leading role of insights and analytics, meaning they have a seat at the table.
00:12:17:16 - 00:12:39:08 Scott They often report to the CEO of the company, and they're part of the decision making. Whereas under-performers and we see this a lot as well. And I've been in organizations like this, they have a separate insights and analytics team that reports to marketing or other functions. So they divided across functions and they effectively act as a marketing services team.
00:12:39:10 - 00:13:15:07 Scott So it's critical that the insights team is reporting up high, has a seat at the decisions. And independent budgets help a lot too. The other thing is they unlock the power of data. And you know, we we've all talked a lot about data visualization and how important that is. But it's also leveraging how research has changed, like now we have so much automated research and we have so much AI-generated research coming up in the near future, that that rather than conducting big studies and going to reams of data, it's getting early signals and then responding to them.
00:13:15:07 - 00:13:38:21 Scott And the value that these researchers bring is that they can look at a red flag coming up, pinging on their phone, and sit down with the CMO and have a really good discussion about what happened, what we think is going on, and what can we do about it or get ahead of it, maybe it's an opportunity, right. But it's like working in real time with real signals rather than big research studies and the experiment.
00:13:38:21 - 00:13:56:19 Scott And back in the day, YouTube was known when it got started. They put 10% of the research budget in things they had no idea if they could possibly work or not. Nobody does that. They're too conservative. Very few companies do it. And then 20% was stuff that day was wild ideas last year, that okay, let's let's prove them out now.
00:13:56:21 - 00:14:13:18 Scott And then the other 70% was stuff they knew worked. And so you're always like, you're always bringing new thinking that way. And I think it was YouTube, I'll give them credit for it at least. But that kind of thinking with experimentation. And the third thing is that these insights engines, these companies have worked really well with insights.
00:14:13:19 - 00:14:37:05 Scott They develop critical capabilities. And we're not talking about tech in this case. We're talking about the people capabilities and skills that bring, storytelling and creative solutions. And more important than anything else is that they are answering business questions, not research questions. So when you make a recommendation, it's how it's going to grow the business and drive shareholder growth.
00:14:37:06 - 00:14:44:10 Scott It's not about, hey, you moved this measure up 4%. Congratulations. Here's a bonus, right. I call it smiley KPI.
00:14:44:10 - 00:15:15:02 Alison It's such great perspective Scott. Now I've been the CMO and often thought one of the superpowers of the marketing team at that executive table is being the voice of the customer. And obviously having insights and data to lead that. When I've had the best impact, when we've had an executive team that was working together, it was around being very insights focused, recognizing that the customer wasn't just the marketing ownership, it was the customers needed to impact absolutely everything that we did.
00:15:15:04 - 00:15:27:18 Alison I haven't been in an organization where insights was a separate department with direct reporting into the CEO. So that's a great observation that some of the top- performing companies have that.
00:15:27:20 - 00:15:52:10 Scott Unilever, globally has had that, and they really flourished, during that whole time. And there are I mean, there are examples around the world where that happens, like, you know, I remember my time at Warner Lambert, they made a big change. And this was back, you know, 1999, like 25 years ago or so. And one of those big visions was that the insights team,
00:15:52:12 - 00:16:12:10 Scott they should have their own budget and they should report to the president of Warner Lambert, our division for Canada. And that was achieved. And it gave us a lot of attitude, latitude rather to, to be, strategic advisors and partners and, and if you've ever heard Peter Rodriguez and I share stories of that day, we worked together,
00:16:12:10 - 00:16:35:19 Scott I know he's a regular with the CMA. When you have that, it's very different from when you work for an organization where you are given a budget, by marketers, could be any team, really, and your job is to go and get support for what you're doing often. You know, it's like that whole David Ogilvy "lamp post for support, rather than illumination" thing that we've heard a zillion times.
00:16:35:19 - 00:16:57:07 Scott But it's true. Whereas, if you have control over the budget, you can invest it in areas that can have the maximum impact for an organization. Tell people things they might not want to hear. And then, tell them things that are going to really help drive the business. So it does happen in different places. Like I never got all the way to bright when I was leading insights for different organizations, but it did make a lot of progress in these areas.
00:16:57:07 - 00:17:19:16 Scott And what I found really quickly was to do that, you needed to help every stakeholder around the table. And I mean, like the, you know, the leadership table at the company. And so what are you doing to help HR, and what are you doing to help the sales team, food service team. Obviously, you're working the CMO closely at that point too, some companies do this.
00:17:19:16 - 00:17:30:15 Scott And the more direct connection there is between insights and leadership, it's great. It helps drive this, but you don't get a seat at the table, you have to earn a seat at the table. So you have to have something of value to bring to it.
00:17:30:17 - 00:17:39:06 Alison It would certainly remove any perceived bias if they were reporting directly, instead of reporting through any other of the colleagues around the C-suite, so it's...
00:17:39:11 - 00:17:40:18 Scott Accountability.
00:17:40:19 - 00:17:44:00 Alison Something I haven't seen before. So it's a very interesting finding from my perspective.
00:17:44:00 - 00:18:15:05 Scott When we talk about the behaviours, because I know, you know, you said in the introduction, talking about democratizing data, we'll get into that, I guess, but one of them is there's a big behavioural difference between low-performing organizations and high-performing organizations. High-performing organizations are sharing and collaborating. Everything is accessible for everybody to interpret and challenge, right? As opposed to hoarding, because it gives some level of perceived power, or control, which is really negative and could drive the organization down.
00:18:15:05 - 00:18:17:18 Scott So yeah, that's another key part too.
00:18:17:18 - 00:18:33:21 Alison That's a great add on. Thank you. So I am very curious to hear what inspired Kantar's decision to democratize brand data, in particular to give it away for free. And I'd love to also hear, are you already seeing brands take advantage of this very generous opportunity?
00:18:33:23 - 00:18:58:02 Scott A bit of background on that really quickly. What we've shared is all the data from Kantar's brandz that we do around the world. I mean, this is, this is a huge country is it's multiple categories. It's, 18,000 brands, probably about 20,000 by now, it's over 5 billion data points. And, you know, as we're reporting on it, we're using it for our brand valuations on a regular basis.
00:18:58:04 - 00:19:21:01 Scott Our vision is to be an indispensable brand partner. That's what we want to be. So we made the decision to put this forward with the idea is that democratizing data, making available for everyone. And I mean, obviously, the benefit is that people see the data that might spark their interest, or they might be, they might like our approach and want to talk to us about it, or doing some work with them, of course.
00:19:21:01 - 00:19:39:18 Scott And we're a business now, not for profit. So we're looking at that. But it's really stimulated a lot of great discussion already. So, if we throw out the link when we put this out, I mean, as a follow up, anybody can go in there and it's, there are no strings attached, you register and you have access to all of it.
00:19:39:20 - 00:20:04:03 Scott So that current belief is in the data democratization. And so this is one step. But we also create a lot of libraries of all the results. So if our clients will allow it, everybody in the organization can access results on a regular basis at their fingertips. And so there are a lot of steps, I mean, dashboards that have been a really great move that the industry has taken forward, to make data accessible for everybody as well.
00:20:04:05 - 00:20:22:19 Scott And some of the biggest questions we get from Canadian clients are, what's going on with the American clients? Or what's going on with the English clients? And they don't share. We often have to help with the sharing. And you know, we're happy to, you know, if we don't get our hands slapped too hard. That type of thing. The idea here is to share the brandz data and all of everything that's in there.
00:20:22:21 - 00:20:43:00 Scott And you asked about who's using that and such right now? And so we found that the early users, early adopters in the market, or I've seen personally in Canada, in some cases is smaller brands like ones who don't have big tracking budgets or the data. And they're just really interested, you know, once a year checking out what's going on or are looking at other categories.
00:20:43:00 - 00:21:07:11 Scott And so we've had some of them, using it, which is great. You know, glad we can offer that up for them. We've had some marketers who are, who don't have brand data available, at the time they need it, have big meetings or decisions to make, and had one of those recently and she accessed it. And it was very helpful to make some informed decisions based on, you know, consumers and like how they felt about the brand against competition.
00:21:07:13 - 00:21:33:07 Scott I think one of the coolest use cases, I was, last year I was leading automotive sector in the US and, and we had a, agency planner that was really grappling with global positioning for their brand. So I introduced them to, to brand snapshot, and they were able to take a look quickly at how their brand performed in every market or many markets, like 12 or 14 around the world.
00:21:33:09 - 00:21:57:18 Scott And see, in the strong markets, what consumers thought about the brand versus the market in the US, where they're quite weak in comparison. So ton of value right there. I could see this being of amazing use to, mergers and acquisitions going forward. Because if you have your eye on a brand, you can take a look at how well do they fit with our brands currently or, you know, are they, is there a lot of interaction?
00:21:57:18 - 00:22:11:08 Scott Are they truly incremental?, Yeah. Maybe a little bit of that that you could look at. But it would make a lot of sense I think as part of the research to get a little bit of a brand view in there too. So, so that's available for people too.
00:22:11:10 - 00:22:46:19 Alison It's such a valuable offer, when I think about our, our membership and the Canadian marketing industry, where so often we're the Canadian office or region for a global brand and business, and it's can be hard justify why we need Canadian specific marketing. So having access to this sort of data on such a global and significant level, and at no cost, is a really powerful advantage in helping demonstrate why Canadian brands and marketing teams really do need to invest in Canada.
00:22:46:19 - 00:23:00:23 Alison Because on the surface, especially if you're looking from south of the border, you can see how we're similar to the U.S. and it might not always be so obvious how we're different. So thank you on behalf of the profession for giving us access to a really powerful way to help build that case.
00:23:01:05 - 00:23:18:03 Scott Yeah, and that's a great use case right there, Alison, where I mean, you could compare the brand in Canada and the US as it's from the database for both, and someday, if you give me another shot, I would love to talk about the importance of Canadian creative and why U.S. ads don't transfer into to Canada, because we have data on that too.
00:23:18:03 - 00:23:19:08 Scott You're right on the mark.
00:23:19:10 - 00:23:38:17 Alison That is definitely a hot topic and I will happily bring you back to have that conversation. So there is very little business marketing topics today that AI isn't impacting. And obviously that's true of insights in the research too. So I'd love you to share how you see AI help transforming the world of both research and insights.
00:23:38:19 - 00:24:01:18 Scott That's a good question. It also goes back to our discussion about insights engines and the importance of that, and experimentation and interpretation and such. As technology changes, the best researchers and marketers are going to have to change with it, or they'll be obsolete very, very quickly. And there's, you wouldn't believe how much resistance, I mean, I've been doing this so long.
00:24:01:18 - 00:24:27:13 Scott Like, I just I use every bit of energy just to try to keep up, if not ahead of some of the trends that are happening in research. I'll give you a couple of examples, personal examples of when, you know, I've seen, people are resistant to it and I won't mention names, but there's one example, going back eight years ago or so, and we started launching, Kantar started launching automated research, and anybody could access it.
00:24:27:13 - 00:24:48:06 Scott Again, it's different forms of democratization. You could do a study right now or an ad agency could test their own ad and show data to the client. Anybody could access it. And I remember when we first put it up, just one traditional researcher in the market just getting really upset on my LinkedIn feed saying, what do you mean?
00:24:48:06 - 00:25:12:12 Scott Anybody with a credit card can do research? That's not right. Of course it's right! Why not? And then, we've seen a lot. I mean, the one of the last hot topics was, system one under you know, the, the whole, you know, neuroscience, behavioural science aspect. And I remember sitting at a dinner table, we socialize with a competitor, and this competitor making a full statement.
00:25:12:12 - 00:25:39:13 Scott Everybody at the table. Real science is just a fad, right? Well, I don't know about that. It's kind of driven a lot of what we do. But just a couple of examples, and those are just personal examples, but you need to leverage this stuff. I mean, this is the greatest opportunity a researcher can have is to try something new and get a fresh look at things. Like, we've been we've been using AI for six years now at Kantar. It's not new to us. Like we use it for text analytics,
00:25:39:13 - 00:25:58:23 Scott We have our link AI. This is actually we were talking about ads going from market to market. We develop this for Coke and Microsoft to test how ads could move from market to market using AI and our normative database. And we use this in our tracking to forecast, based on the trends. We have always on market mix modeling now.
00:25:58:23 - 00:26:19:06 Scott And it's incredible how you can leverage AI, but it's Gen AI, which is the real game changer right now. And it's a huge area of focus for us. We have a nature, partnership. I don't think it's been announced yet, but we're working at very high levels globally. So we can put this in everything we do. And it's going to, it's going to really help with not just our own productivity,
00:26:19:06 - 00:26:45:12 Scott how we work, but our ability to analyze and work quickly. Like, it's going to change how we collect data. It's going to change how we analyze data, how we deliver data. But at the same time, like this is for, you know, broader for researchers, it's an opportunity to do stuff we're talking about, you know, redefining yourself, always. like, who would be a, who would be better at being a product engineer than a researcher that's been trained
00:26:45:12 - 00:27:16:15 Scott to ask questions your entire life, right? And good questions and bad questions. Like, you know, what I play with? And I, you know, I give really bad poetry, because I'm not a good poet, but I can really probe copilot to answer some good questions, right? And it's also about really embracing the dynamism is critical. You know, I talked about being in the forefront, but you can immerse yourself in uncertainties and the uncomfortable zone and then use this for scenario planning, too, and play out different scenarios as, as AI is advancing.
00:27:16:17 - 00:27:39:12 Scott But I think one of the key pieces right here, one of the pieces of low hanging fruit, is I've talked about storytelling, and how important storytelling is for insights. When you can get AI to build your story for you and get it 70%, you can make that last 30% the most compelling thing in the world. Make sure it makes sense and tell a great story, rather
00:27:39:12 - 00:27:59:05 Scott than going through all the numbers and you know, it's up and down, it's just going to push us ahead. So, you know, if you look at Maslow, we're going to get towards our self-actualization if we choose to, rather than the security at the bottom worrying about our jobs all the time. So I think it's the greatest gift and the greatest opportunity, so very excited about.
00:27:59:07 - 00:28:17:16 Alison Yeah, I definitely share your enthusiasm for Gen AI and the whole example you gave around looking at the quote unquote blank page. It's always easier to edit than it is to create from scratch. So, from a storytelling perspective, even if you don't like the starting point, it just makes it easier to then jump down and edit and refine and tell it in a powerful way.
00:28:17:16 - 00:28:36:23 Alison So, great examples. So, in closing, you joked about your 30 years of experience, and in that 30 years you have learned a great deal, and you've shared a lot with us today. But that also means you have some great advice to offer. So I'd love to end our time together today by having you share one piece of advice for our marketers who are listening.
00:28:37:01 - 00:28:59:12 Scott Well, any marketer who's worked with me is going to be sick of hearing this, because it's the piece of advice I've given for many, many, many years. I give it to all my colleagues and all my, all my staff and everybody else. But I believe in it. When you're standing on a beach, and there's a major huge wave, tidal wave of change coming your way, you have two choices.
00:28:59:13 - 00:29:14:01 Scott You can stand there, deny it, do nothing, and you're going to get swept away and crushed by it. Or, choice number two, you can grab a surfboard and get on top of and have the ride of your life. That's all.
00:29:14:03 - 00:29:26:06 Alison Great advice. So I'm definitely going to be donning my surfboard and heading out, so I hope all of our listeners will do the same. Scott, thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, and we will happily invite you back to share more.
00:29:26:11 - 00:29:30:07 Scott It's been a pleasure, Alison. Thank you very much and would love to come back again. Thank you.
00:29:30:09 - 00:29:33:03 Alison Thank you.
00:29:33:05 - 00:29:45:19 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.
EP16 - Engaging Indigenous Audiences with Carolin Taubensee
16 Apr 2024
00:15:37
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Carolin Taubensee, Executive Director of Marketing Communications at APTN. They discuss preserving Indigenous languages, how marketers can reach these diverse communities, and opening doors for the Indigenous worldwide.
00:00:07 - 00:00:17 where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.
00:00:17 - 00:00:21
With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.
00:00:24 - 00:01:00 Alison With challenges in the industry's quest for inclusivity and representation. Marketers really need to navigate the journey of aligning brand narratives with the profound cultural heritage of indigenous communities. In this episode, I'm honoured to have a conversation with Carolin Taubensee, Executive Director of Marketing and Communications at APTN. APTN is the first national indigenous broadcaster in the world, and it's an organization that's not only carving out a critical space for indigenous voices in media, but also reshaping how brands can connect with this diverse and dynamic audience.
00:01:00 - 00:01:29 Alison So today, we're going to explore the business opportunity that marketing to the indigenous population represents. And we're also going to talk about the impact of indigenous media on brand strategies and uncover the diverse demographics of indigenous communities. We'll discuss the authentic ways that brands can engage with indigenous audiences, fostering social responsibility and long term loyalty. Plus, we'll discuss the pursuit of indigenous language preservation and how this cultural cornerstone is influencing the marketing sphere.
00:01:29 - 00:01:35 Alison Carolin, I'm absolutely thrilled to have you joining us today.
Carolin Thank you so much, Allison. It's great to be here.
00:01:35 - 00:01:43 Alison Now, I want to kick things off by having you share your insights on the size of and diversity within the indigenous population in Canada.
00:01:43 - 00:02:03 Carolin Sure. First of all, I'd just like to say that I'm coming to you today from Treaty One territory. I was born and raised in Winnipeg, first-generation Canadian from German heritage, and having worked at APTN for almost six years now, I'm happy to say that I'm an ally of the Indigenous peoples.
00:02:04 - 00:02:29 Carolin In terms of the learning and the understanding in terms of Indigenous communities in Canada, it's really important to know that they're not one homogeneous group. They have shared values and experiences, but there are vast differences when we consider there's over 600 distinct First Nations communities in Canada with over 70 Indigenous languages spoken.
00:02:30 - 00:02:42 Carolin And so Indigenous people are represented by First Nations, Inuit, and Métis people. And First Nations is about 60% of the Indigenous population, Métis about 34-ish percent,
00:02:43 - 00:02:54 Carolin and then about four or five percent for Inuit, which are largely people in the north. And in total, the population in Canada for Indigenous people is almost 2 million.
00:02:55 - 00:03:12 Carolin It's 1.8 million, according to the last census. And that represents a total of about 5% of the population in Canada. But what's interesting in terms of going into looking at that audience and that community, is it's the fastest growing population in Canada,
00:03:13 - 00:03:23 Carolin and it also has the youngest population, where 28% are about under 25 years old. And so as marketers, we're often trying to reach younger audiences.
00:03:24 - 00:03:44 Carolin So it's very worthwhile noting that Indigenous people tend to be younger. And it's on average, the average age of Canadians is, you know, early 40s. Indigenous people, it's a decade younger. So quite interesting when we think about the opportunities that are out there for marketers today.
00:03:45:07 - 00:05:08:16 Alison Carolin, I knew that I was going to learn a lot from you today. I had no appreciation for the size of the Indigenous community in Canada. And the fact that there are 600 communities and over 70 languages spoken. I also didn't know that they were the fastest growing community within our country. So thank you so much. That was incredibly illuminating.
00:04:04 - 00:04:11 Carolin You're welcome. It's also, I think, interesting to talk about a geographic distribution of Indigenous people as well.
00:04:12 - 00:04:29 Carolin Only 43% live on reserve and Indigenous people, they're more likely to live in large urban centres. And so in the largest Indigenous population in a city in Canada is actually in Winnipeg with over 100,000 people.
00:04:30 - 00:04:56 Carolin But there's large representation in Edmonton and Vancouver as well, in terms of city centre. But when you think about, on a provincial level, and you look at Ontario, the largest population of Indigenous people live in Ontario. It's almost 400,000 people. And so we really are in terms of Indigenous people spread throughout coast to coast to coast.
00:04:57 - 00:05:07 Carolin But when you think about sort of that distribution of reserve or rural, it's a large city population and the volume is across the country.
00:05:08 - 00:05:24 Alison Now, this multifaceted group certainly represents potential consumers for many brands and many of our listeners today. Carolin, in your experience, what are the opportunities that you see and how can marketers tailor their marketing strategy and approach to reach and resonate with Indigenous consumers?
00:05:25 - 00:05:36 Carolin You know, it's important. I think everybody realizes that Canada is a very diverse country, and so as marketers we strive to identify with consumers. So we need to represent diversity.
00:05:37 - 00:05:56 Carolin It's very important. And as marketers we can't get trapped into thinking what attracts me or what interests me as a consumer We really need to step into the shoes or the moccasins as the case may be into others and so that we can understand all all the different diverse communities that are in Canada,
00:05:57 - 00:06:07 Carolin including Indigenous people. Now, when we think about it, Indigenous people consume all the same products that non-Indigenous people do. They're buying groceries,
00:06:08 - 00:06:19 Carolin they're buying cars, they're buying houses, they're shopping in retail. And so it really is a matter of how do we associate with audiences of diverse
00:06:20 - 00:06:27 Carolin backgrounds because they are consumers of the products that were out there, products and services that we're presenting to as marketers out there.
00:06:28 - 00:06:39 Alison So, with an increasing interest in diversity and inclusion, I'd love you to share some specific outcomes and success stories of brands that have forged partnerships with Indigenous media entities, like APTN.
00:06:40 - 00:06:58 Carolin So as APTN is the world's first national indigenous broadcaster, we are able to share our stories with our voices and it's our narratives that really matter. And that's the importance of what Indigenous media brings to Canada.
00:06:59 - 00:07:17 Carolin There are many Indigenous media out there, whether they are radio stations, whether they are digital news platforms, traditional print, television. television, and many reflect and celebrate the cultures and the languages and traditions and wisdom of Indigenous peoples.
00:07:18 - 00:07:28 Carolin And I'm very humbled in terms of the knowledge that Indigenous people collectively have in terms of the environment, the land, water, the animals.
00:07:29 - 00:07:43 Carolin They're such important aspects in terms of our overall environment. And so-- I think that when we go into working with Indigenous media as marketers that are out there,
00:07:44 - 00:07:58 Carolin they're connecting with that community directly and showing that support and that relationship. And so I think that's a very important aspect of looking at marketing and how do we connect.
00:07:59 - 00:08:09 Alison So how can brands demonstrate a genuine commitment to social responsibility when marketing in Indigenous spaces and ensuring that they're not falling into a performative allyship?
00:08:10 - 00:08:23 Carolin I think the important thing here is for marketers to, as individuals, to take the time to learn and understand about different communities, including Indigenous peoples. There's a great course, the online course,
00:08:24 - 00:08:37 Carolin that the University of Alberta offers for free, and it's called Indigenous Canada, and it's great knowledge in terms of understanding the history and the perspectives of Indigenous people.
00:08:38: - 00:08:50 Carolin And so, as individuals, as marketers, I think it's important to put yourself in terms of learning about the communities and being sensitive in terms of ceremony,
00:08:51 - 00:09:06 Carolin spirituality. It's important not to just utilize traditional images in our marketing. It can be that there are people that are represented just in terms of diverse communities,
00:09:07 - 00:09:19 Carolin people of colour and so forth that they're integrated into advertising. But it's important to really learn about the communities and not, you know, utilize something that could be quite sensitive,
00:09:20 - 00:09:25 Carolin especially as it relates to culture and ceremony and spirituality.
00:09:26 - 00:09:34 Alison So, Carolin, I'd love you to share some of the ways the indigenous community has shown appreciation or reciprocated when brands engage with them authentically and respectfully.
00:09:35 - 00:09:48 Carolin A big part of Indigenous culture is really building relationships with other communities. And so when it is opened up in terms of marketers,
00:09:49 - 00:10:01 Carolin recognizing and showing importance that they want a relationship with Indigenous people is a cultural thing to be able to reciprocate that.
00:10:02 - 00:10:29 Carolin And looking at shared values is very important in terms of what is important to Indigenous people. And so looking at those aspects of relationship-building is a big part of being able to share and identify potentially with marketers that recognize and the values and the importance of Indigenous peoples
00:10:30 - 00:10:46 Carolin as a whole and being very respectful in terms of Indigenous people. So that just is sort of, you know, the full circle of building respect and relationships, is a big part of what makes sense and what's important to Indigenous people.
00:10:47 - 00:10:59 Alison Now, Carolin, with APTN's initiative towards Indigenous language preservation, what role do you think media plays in cultural sustainability? And how should brands align with these efforts for meaningful engagement?
00:11:00 - 00:11:10 Carolin I was mentioning earlier that there's over seventy Indigenous languages in Canada, and some of them are at high risk of being lost. And when languages are lost,
00:11:11 - 00:11:22 Carolin culture is lost. And so one of the things that APTN is working through and has for a while is providing content that is in language.
00:11:23 - 00:11:35 Carolin For so long, Indigenous people were not even able to speak their language. But we've come to a place where finally there's the respect that is out there in terms of enabling those languages to be spoken.
00:11:36 - 00:11:47 Carolin And so it's really important in terms of the role that APTN plays in providing content that is in a variety of languages. languages so that people can hear,
O0:11:48 - 00:12:03 Carolin get a sense of pride, and rebuild and reclaim those languages again. And so if there are marketers that are out there, that can help us achieve our goals collectively for the betterment of our communities,
00:12:04 - 00:12:19 Carolin then that would be so valuable in terms of meaningful engagement, and moving forward in terms of reconciliation. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission came out with a number of calls to action.
00:12:20 - 00:12:32 Carolin Number 92 in particular is really calling on corporate Canada to build the relationships and enable Indigenous people in terms of access,
00:12:33 - 00:12:51 Carolin whether that's jobs, education, whether it's learning and educating themselves on history and the legacy of residential schools. And so when we look at how do we challenge and what can organizations do in terms of achieving reconciliation,
00:12:52 - 00:13:19 Carolin that's an important part of it. And then even APTN has been called upon in terms of the call to action number 85. And how we support reconciliation together is being that leader in programming, and the culture, and being able to share those languages and help reclaim them again and build strength back up in the community to speak the languages that is such a strong representation of culture.
00:13:20 - 00:13:39 Alison Carolin, thank you so much. Now you've got an enviable job, you've got an outstanding career. So I'd love to close our discussion today by having you share one piece of advice for our listeners. It's a marketing audience, and I know they would benefit from some marketing advice and something you'd like to share with them.
00:13:40 - 00:13:48 Carolin You know, I started my career over 35 years ago. I was a media planner buyer at an ad agency and I've come full circle now sitting sort of at the media side,
00:13:49 - 00:13:59 Carolin within the media industry. And I would just say that what's important is knowing that media is an art and a science. We look at all the metrics.
00:14:00 - 00:14:11 Carolin Digital provides us so many metrics in terms of performance of marketing and advertising, and that's important. But it's also important to recognize the art side of it.
00:14:12 - 00:14:29 Carolin And intuitively, stepping out of the numbers and being able to identify communities, audiences, that may not always sort of meet the standards of the largest audience or impressions and those sorts of things.
00:14:30 - 00:14:47 Carolin And so my advice for young marketers is to recognize the art and the science of media and looking at numbers, but building in sort of those intuitive understandings of communities and what might be important to step outside of just the plain numbers themselves.
00:14:48 - 00:15:16 Alison That's great advice, Carolin. It's certainly very applicable to the media aspect of the marketing profession. I would say it's also very applicable across all aspects of the marketing profession. So it's a great note to end on. And I really want to thank you for being my guest today and sharing some really important insights into how marketers can resonate with and engage with our Indigenous community.
00:15:11 - 00:15:18 Carolin Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure to be able to talk about this today.
00:15:19 - 00:15:32
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.
EP15 - Changing Media with Caroline Gianias
02 Apr 2024
00:22:50
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Caroline Gianias, President of Radio Connects. Alison and Caroline explore how changing media habits, the merging of traditional and digital mediums, and multicultural diversity unite to create new opportunities for marketers in Canada.
00:00:03:06 - 00:00:22:11 Speaker 1 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business themes. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.
00:00:22:13 - 00:00:52:18 Alison With the media landscape evolving so rapidly, Canada's media industry is very much at a turning point, stirring a vital conversation on the media's direction in our country. From the changing media habits of Canadians, streaming and increased digital advertising, to the consolidation of newsrooms, understanding these shifts is absolutely crucial for crafting media plans and messages that resonate. Marketers need to stay agile and informed, since adapting to these dynamic shifts is now more crucial than ever.
00:00:52:19 - 00:01:14:22 Alison To guide us through this pivotal time, I am absolutely thrilled to have Caroline Gianias, President of Radio Connects, join us today. Caroline is a highly regarded media expert who has worked with local and global clients across every major advertising category. In addition to her role at Radio Connects, Caroline also is the vice president of the World Radio Alliance and chairs the CMA's Media Council.
00:01:15:04 - 00:01:29:17 Alison Today we delve into how massive shifts in media habits, merging digital with traditional mediums, and Canada's rich cultural diversity create a realm of possibilities for marketers everywhere. Welcome, Caroline. It's really great to have you with me today.
00:01:29:19 - 00:01:35:05 Caroline Thanks, Alison. It's a pleasure to be here. Hope I have some good insights to share on this lofty topic.
00:01:35:07 - 00:01:46:14 Alison So to kick things off, I would love to hear how the evolving demographics and cultural diversity within Canada are influencing media consumption habits and advertisers' approach to segmentation.
00:01:46:18 - 00:02:14:13 Caroline Canada is such a big country. I mean, we're six time zones spread across a massive landscape, with cultural differences, we've got regional differences. We have two official languages, and on top of that, we're layered with this very rich and diverse cultural experience of new Canadians, and what it means to be a new Canadian, as well as just the changing technology that's having an impact on media consumption.
00:02:14:13 - 00:02:43:16 Caroline So it's a really big question and something that I'm sure advertisers are faced with every day in trying to solve their business challenges and using media as a part of that. Really, the disruption to media consumption has largely been led by technology and the fact that digitization of media, the fact that we're carrying around in our palms, the most powerful computer you could possibly have, that just opens a world of possibilities in terms of consumption.
00:02:43:18 - 00:03:20:05 Caroline So, you know, all it contributes to is just making that media consumption more fragmented, really. And so how do marketers connect with all of those different touchpoints? Right. That's the big challenge. I mean, the reality of 40 million people is that 80% of us are still living within, you know, 200 kilometres of the United States. Right. So this whole fragmentation of media and media consumption, I mean, a lot of it is still media and cultural influences, political influences, certainly economic influences that are all coming from south of the border.
00:03:20:07 - 00:03:48:23 Caroline And, you know, for Canada, the challenge in that is how do marketers, especially in global brands, maintain the fact that Canada is a unique and diverse marketplace separate from the United States and we're not the 51st state? And what applies in the United States? While yeah, there'll be similarities, but it still needs to be adapted because, you know, in Canada we have our own media consumption habits that are different and are regionally different as well.
00:03:48:23 - 00:04:18:23 Caroline And we have two official languages and I think a lot of the times when advertisers are so focused on what does it mean to be multicultural and support new Canadians and the ethnicity and diversity of Canada? Are we in fact ignoring a very big percent of Canada's population that's living in Quebec? That aren't even being addressed? What are we doing to include Quebec in those conversations, which I think often get left off the table when we're talking about Canada being a diverse and multicultural population?
00:04:19:01 - 00:04:38:15 Caroline Oftentimes, they're not even included in the advertiser's plans. So if we're looking at prioritizing ethnicity, cultural diversity, how do we do that beyond English and French in Canada? And are we even doing the right job in English or French in Canada? Right. So it becomes a very complex question.
00:04:38:17 - 00:05:05:10 Alison And it can be very easy to be sitting on the other side of the border looking at Canada and seeing how we're alike and really underestimating the crucial and sometimes subtle differences that make marketing in Canada truly unique. In your viewpoint, are the media measurement tools that are available today agile enough to capture the multicultural consumption patterns that are currently happening in Canada, and to do it an accurate way?
00:05:05:12 - 00:05:28:02 Caroline Yeah, it's challenging because, you know, the question always comes down to with measurement, what are you measuring? Are you measuring for insight to improve business outcomes based on understanding consumer, based on understanding media habits? Or are you measuring for currency to transact to purchase that media? So, you know, the two of them, they're very different things and they don't necessarily, are not approached in the same way.
00:05:28:04 - 00:05:51:20 Caroline Certainly when we're measuring for currency in Canada, we have Numeris. Right. And we have Radio Counts that supports on the radio measurements and they use very disciplined approach. It's, you know, using panels, it's looking at census data, it's extrapolating to population. Of course, in Canada with privacy, we don't speak to ethnicity, we don't speak to other than understanding in terms of the panels of languages spoken at home.
00:05:51:22 - 00:06:16:05 Caroline But we don't dissect in terms of, you know, am I speaking to a South Asian community? If I am speaking to a South Asian community, what does that look like within the association communities that look on many different looks as well? And quite frankly, there's just not enough people in the country, believe it or not, that we can actually subgroup those into into certain measurement segments and start saying, well, yes, I'm using media to currency against this particular segment.
00:06:16:07 - 00:06:39:09 Caroline There's just, it's difficult to do that and it's difficult to get around that with privacy. I think you can do that digitally by creating, you know, scenarios of that if people are consuming this content that they're likely from this aspect of a community or certain ethnic group. And that seems easy to do. But I guess the question comes down to what are you going to do with that measurement once you get it?
00:06:39:11 - 00:07:06:15 Caroline How are you going to use that insight to inform your executions? What are you doing to make that a better user experience? If you're delivering content against that community or that language, is it in the right context? Are you using the right methodology to convey the message? Are you, you know, is it reflecting their communities? So once you start asking questions if you're measuring against certain things, it's like, what are you measuring?
00:07:06:16 - 00:07:29:11 Caroline How are you measuring it? And what are you going to do with the insight you get with that measurement? And I think in Canada, fundamentally too, it's it's expense sieve to measure. It's very expensive to measure. And the question always becomes who's paying for that measurement? You know, are the advertisers paying for it? Are the agencies paying for it? Are the broadcasters in Canada, the private broadcasters and the CBC?
00:07:29:11 - 00:07:59:18 Caroline Are they paying for that? Because if you look at some of the vertical tech companies, they are measuring their own users. But, you know, they're all now putting that behind walled gardens, right? You can't necessarily get to that first party data that they're collecting about their user groups. So it's a very difficult question. And I think the challenge also becomes is, as soon as you establish the parameters of measurement, the goalpost has moved in terms of what we're measuring, what technology we're measuring, and it's constantly evolving.
00:07:59:18 - 00:08:21:17 Caroline So it seems like the measurement is always behind the consumption because people are moving so quickly to adopt two different things. And once you find a way to measure it, they've moved on to something else. But I will say that I don't think from the broadcast perspective in the traditional measurement, if you will, that we give enough credit in terms of some of the solutions.
00:08:21:19 - 00:08:44:11 Caroline You know, I do have a lot of exposure to global media owners in the broadcast space, and they look to Canada as, you guys are measuring streaming of over the air broadcast, you're measuring, you're using panels, you're looking at different time zones, like we are actually quite advanced in terms of how some measurement is being done. Yet we in Canada don't give ourselves enough credit.
00:08:44:13 - 00:08:53:22 Caroline You know, actually being at the foreground in some of those measurements that we've done and we actually have. But I don't think we give ourselves enough credit sometimes.
00:08:54:00 - 00:08:59:01 Alison I think that's true of Canadians on a number of different levels. So I appreciate you shouting that out.
00:08:59:03 - 00:09:00:00 Alison I also want to point out
00:09:00:05 - 00:09:21:17 Alison Something you talked about earlier. We have a lot of listeners and members that are part of multinational businesses and representing the brand in Canada. So what strategy should multinational marketers employ to harness the full potential of the Canadian media scene? And it would be great to hear what makes Canada unique and why should media investment here be more of a priority?
00:09:21:17 - 00:09:30:06 Alison Because as I mentioned earlier, it's easy to you're sitting in the States in particular to look across the border and see how we're alike and underestimate the important differences we have.
00:09:30:08 - 00:09:55:23 Caroline The challenges is to ensure that the budgets reflect the job at hand, especially in certain categories. Canada, the media has to work so much harder because the trade dollars relative to what some advertisers are putting in the marketing budget to support their trade initiatives is certainly less than what it is in other markets. So our media has to work that much harder to support trade activity.
00:09:55:23 - 00:10:14:14 Caroline So I think, it's really the challenge has always been, you know, the budget for Canada shouldn't just be a default to it's X percent of what you're doing in the United States. That's, you know, you can't do that because our media budgets have to work harder in terms of connecting with Canadians. We have that fragmentation to deal with.
00:10:14:16 - 00:10:41:14 Caroline We have dual languages to start off before we even talk about doing any kind of ethnic centric or ethnic media placement. We have to address that. We have two official languages, two media ecosystems that support English and French. So that needs to have a seat at the table to have those discussions, because don't just automatically assume it's the budget to satisfy Canada is a percent of the US budget.
00:10:41:16 - 00:11:16:16 Caroline You have to look at what the business challenges are, what the media ecosystem looks like and what it's going to do to get that job done. And it will involve a percentage of English in Canada, and that's just a reality. You can't ignore the Quebec market, as a lot of marketers will tend to do. And I think the other thing is to look at the fact of the role of different media has, even in a world of multiculturalism and new Canadians coming into Canada. At what point do marketers sit back and say, you're no longer new Canadian when? You've been here five years, three years, ten years, 20 years?
00:11:16:18 - 00:11:38:21 Caroline Are we talking about new Canadians and what's the business objective to meet new Canadians? It might be completely different. You know, there's not just media challenges that we have with trying to meet new Canadians or a diverse multicultural community. It's the expectations of the services that they're going to be getting. You know, a lot of sticker shock when people come to Canada, right?
00:11:38:22 - 00:11:58:06 Caroline It's like you think the land of milk and honey, and it's really expensive cell phone plans. It's, you know, cost of living is really high. Cost of rent and ownership and all sorts of things are really high. And eventually those things do play into media usage because, you know, you're not going to have that many streaming services because they're expensive.
00:11:58:06 - 00:12:26:16 Caroline And you know local media may become the touchpoint because it's free for the most part, right? You can get in and listen to radio anywhere, any time. You don't have to pay for that service. With basic cable, you can turn on TV and find out what's happening. And so I think the challenge for multinational marketers is really to understand what the Canadian landscape looks like and the fact that it's English and it's French, and that just looking at a percent of the US budget isn't just going to get the job done.
00:12:26:16 - 00:12:33:22 Caroline You've got to really understand what it is you need to achieve. And the cost of media in Canada, it's not it's not cheap, right? It's not cheap.
00:12:34:00 - 00:12:47:05 Alison With the rise of streaming platforms and consumers shift to new media habits, what are the key strategies that traditional radio broadcasters and media platforms in Canada are implementing to remain relevant and competitive?
00:12:47:07 - 00:13:09:18 Caroline Well, you know, it's interesting. I think, you know, people think streaming, and I'll talk to the audio space because obviously it's where I'm immersed in the most is that I think there's a real disconnect in terms of understanding what that actually means, because really in terms of audio, what's happening in that streaming landscape, is that really streaming is a replacement of our personal music libraries, right?
00:13:09:20 - 00:13:29:17 Caroline You know, unless you're a real audiophile and, you know, my 30 year old, 31 year old son is, he has LPs, is that most people, I would say most people, a selection of Canadians are choosing to rent their music libraries versus owning their music libraries. Right. And that's giving the rise to what we're seeing in terms of streaming.
00:13:29:18 - 00:13:52:10 Caroline Because previously when we would look at, you know, album sales, to determine, you know, the top, CHUM's top list, right? It's how many records sold, you know, what the radio stations were playing and now it's coming down to streaming because we could physically count that now, whereas before we weren't. So all that personal music time being spent with physical is now being streamed.
00:13:52:12 - 00:14:22:21 Caroline But it's not a new phenomenon quite frankly. Personal music has always been in existence. It's just now that it's being streamed on a device as opposed to being played on your record player or your MP3 player or your boombox. So I think there is a a sense of certainly with people in the industry who think that Canadians aren't listening to terrestrial radio anymore because they're streaming, when in actual fact, you know, the reach of radio has been pretty consistent forever.
00:14:22:23 - 00:14:49:19 Caroline And most of the streaming that's being done by those Canadians who are streaming is largely noncommercial. It's to their personal music libraries. Because if you actually look at the free online music streaming services or you look at even podcasting, like collectively the two of them, I think what podcasting is maybe 29%, and free music streaming is like maybe 8% of all of the audio listening out there.
00:14:50:00 - 00:15:30:11 Caroline Whereas like radio, if you look at PPM, it's at 84%. That's a very big difference. And even when you compare it to the Amazon Prime, the Apple Music, YouTube, it's, you're still looking at terrestrial radio being one and a half, two times greater in terms of reach of any of those platforms. So, you know, I think the adaptation that broadcasters are have, is that it's more so that Canadian to really rediscovering the fact that radio was the original mobile medium, right, the transistor radio, and now you've got it on your phone. So your phone has become your transistor radio and so people are able to take that that radio experience with them wherever they're going
00:15:30:13 - 00:15:54:09 Caroline because it's a different experience, right? People lean into radio, they're connecting and want to know what's going on in the community. And the further out you get from the major urban centres, the more important those connections become to local community. And I think that's true whether you're new Canadian, who wants to connect with their new environment, they're learning the language, they're consuming, you know, television and radio because they're improving their English.
00:15:54:11 - 00:16:19:23 Caroline So I think, you know, the fact is that we in the industry, I think, have a different perception because we tend to be bigger streamers in general. We tend to have more streaming subscriptions than the average Canadian. We tend to spend more time with streaming and on demand platforms than average Canadians. And I think that often colours our perception of what consumers are doing.
00:16:20:01 - 00:16:41:21 Caroline And I go back to, ThinkTV did a great survey with Ipsos and it kind of level sets those of us who work in marketing, those who work in advertising, think about what Canadians are doing and there's such a difference in terms of what our perceptions of media consumption of the average Canadian is our own consumption versus what we think they're doing.
00:16:41:21 - 00:17:07:00 Caroline And you see such a disconnect. And I think the challenge for marketers and those advising their clients is, we're not the average consumer, we're not the average media consumption either. And so we really need to kind of take a step back and really focus on, you know, what Joe or Jill or, you know, average consumer X is doing relative to what we're doing because we're not like everybody else.
00:17:07:02 - 00:17:26:15 Caroline And we need to remember that when we're developing our advertising strategies, our behaviours, our consumption should never be the baseline of what we're doing. And insights, information, data points about average consumers and their consumer journey should always be the focus point because it's so different from ours.
00:17:26:17 - 00:17:38:01 Alison That's such an important reminder that you've given us, Caroline, to not assume that how we engage with media, how we live our lives, it's usually fundamentally different from the quote unquote average Canadian.
00:17:39:12 - 00:17:46:03 Alison Well, your stat around 84% of radio is probably a surprising stat for a lot of our listeners as well.
00:17:46:05 - 00:18:07:22 Caroline I think it is. And I think that they forget, you know, especially I think another interesting thing is that those of us who work in urban centres, even, you know, post-COVID, we did a survey not too long ago with Signal Hills through Maru Canada, just asking people, you know, who were in vehicles yesterday, because obviously radio is a very important part of the consumer journey in car.
00:18:08:00 - 00:18:41:00 Caroline And, you know, on average, 44% of Canadians were in vehicles yesterday versus 6% were in transit. So the reality is Canadians are very much car drivers and vehicle drivers as opposed to transit takers. And if you're trying to connect with consumers on the last mile about the purchase, being in the car is a big part of that. Right. And once you strip out all the noise of where you can actually meet a consumer with an ad message, like radio's 92% of that, because muscle memory, you get in your car and you turn it on. The radio comes on automatically, right?
00:18:41:05 - 00:19:05:21 Caroline Even in connected cars, whether you're an Android or Wi-Fi, Apple CarPlay, any of those different technologies, the time spent with ad supported or the amount of people listening to ad supported radio, the numbers are consistent it's above 90%, whether you have Android auto in the car or not because that connection to live radio, it's a leaned in experience and people rely on it.
00:19:05:23 - 00:19:23:18 Caroline And I think those of us in marketing who are not in cars, who rely on transit and think that everybody connects to their apps the minute they get in the car, that's you know, that's just not the reality out there. Right. And that's a big audience that we're missing if we're not focused on that.
00:19:23:20 - 00:19:38:23 Alison That's a great point. I'm sure some of our listeners are wondering if there's a demographic part of radio listening. Have you noticed in any of your research whether our younger Canadians as engaged with radio as we might be?
00:19:39:01 - 00:19:56:01 Caroline Well, you know, it's funny, we did just look at some research recently, and nobody wants to hear this, but the older you get, the more you consume. That's surprising. I remember I was at an agency thing not too long ago and I did have to counsel, I hate to tell you this, but you do turn into your parents as you get older.
00:19:56:03 - 00:20:15:09 Caroline You know, when you start when you move along from being a party of one, hopping on the subway or working remotely, to suddenly being in a car, driving through the drive through because, you know, doing school run and you got to run out for groceries or you ran out of milk, you know, not everything comes by a delivery service.
00:20:15:11 - 00:20:46:18 Caroline Uber eats or, you know, your grocery runs to your door. And, you know, radio does connect with more people as your life stages change. But I think, you know, it's interesting, I think people are surprised that even when you look at the younger demographics of 18 to 34 and you compare that with some of the digital platforms like Facebook and YouTube and, radio still connects with more of them than connects with YouTube or Facebook or TikTok or Instagram.
00:20:46:19 - 00:21:04:04 Caroline When it comes to 18 to 34s, like the reach of radio is still higher than those other media, which I think is surprising to a lot of people. The younger you are, the more exposure to radio, the more likely you are to have or to take some sort of action after hearing an ad, which we know is pretty surprising for people as well.
00:21:04:06 - 00:21:08:13 Caroline You know, but that came out in a recent study, and all of this is available on our Radio Connects website.
00:21:08:15 - 00:21:19:07 Alison Caroline, this has been wonderful conversation. I know you've got a busy day ahead, but before I close off our discussion, I would love to have you share one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners.
00:21:19:09 - 00:21:36:16 Caroline I guess it goes back to the we in the industry, we're a unique breed and our media behaviours are not like everyone else's. And I think we, as as you go through the media journey in the consumer journey and, you're looking to if I'm going to spend $1 an hour in media, where am I going to spend it?
00:21:36:18 - 00:21:58:02 Caroline You know, go back to the the business challenge at hand. Look at the consumer journey, not your media journey, but the consumer journey of the person that you're trying to connect with and ensure that you've covered all the touch points that are the most relevant and that the messaging you're delivering, it's in a context that makes sense for the person receiving the message.
00:21:58:04 - 00:22:23:03 Caroline Because I think, Canada, we're a vast landscape, fragmented media universe, media has its challenges in our marketplace to connect with English, French, multicultural, and it's always hard to determine where to spend that first dollar. So always go back to what the business challenge is at hand and what's the most effective medium you can use to resolve those business challenges.
00:22:23:05 - 00:22:33:23 Alison Great advice. Caroline, thank you so much for your time today and for a really great, insightful conversation.
00:22:34:01 - 00:22:45:18 Speaker 1 Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.
EP14 - The Golden Age of Marketing, with Raja Rajamannar
19 Mar 2024
00:28:57
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Raja Rajamannar, Chief Marketing and Communications Officer and President of Healthcare for Mastercard and author of Quantum Marketing. Alison and Raja delve into mastering time management, key trends in this golden age of marketing, inclusive design and the skills marketers need to future-proof the profession.
00:00:03:06 - 00:00:32:22 Unknown Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business themes. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.
Alison If you listened to our earlier episode with our board chair, Kerri Dawson, you absolutely know that future proofing the marketing profession is a top priority for the Canadian Marketing Association.
00:00:33:00 - 00:01:03:23 Alison We're very focused on helping marketers understand and manage the tectonic shifts that will fundamentally change how brands and businesses are built tomorrow, while also ensuring they're delivering on today's business needs. Today's guest is ideally suited to help us future proof marketing. Here's what he had to say about the current reality for marketers. "This era is driven by exponential disruptions, good and bad, in consumers' lives caused by a deluge of emerging technologies. And the resulting changes in the consumer landscape
00:01:04:01 - 00:01:34:03 Alison call for marketers to tap into the dynamics of the new paradigm and reinvent their entire approach." So it's my pleasure to welcome Raja Rajamannar to our podcast today. He's the Global Chief Marketing and Communications Officer and also the President of Health Care for MasterCard. Now, that would be more than enough to keep most of us busy. But Raja somehow found time to also write Quantum Marketing, which is a Wall Street Journal bestseller and must read for every marketer focused on the future.
00:01:34:05 - 00:01:58:13 Alison Raja is renowned for innovating for some of the world's top brands and businesses, and he's been recognized with many awards throughout his career. A few recent ones include Business Insider's twenty five most innovative CMO's in the world, WFA Global Marketer of the Year, Forbes Top five World's most influential CMO's, and the Campaign Power 100. Raja, thanks so much for joining us today.
00:01:58:15 - 00:02:23:14 Raja Thank you for having me here Alison. Much appreciated.
Alison Now, I'm actually not going to start with the marketing question. When I think about your massive dual global mandate at MasterCard plus your different board roles and the fact that you found time to write a book, it's abundantly clear that you've mastered time management. So please let us know how you prioritize and determine where to focus your time to drive the greatest impact.
00:02:23:16 - 00:02:51:14 Raja The first thing is, I start with the premise that you cannot manage time. You manage yourself not the time. And time just keeps going on, right. You cannot bend it, cannot stop it. You cannot accelerate it. The key thing is, as one of the authors has written beautifully, the title of the book is 4000 Weeks. That's all our full life typically is, about eighty years.
00:02:51:16 - 00:03:19:18 Raja And in that kind of a 4000 week timeframe, you need to be crystal clear on what you really want to spend each one of those precious weeks. You can while away time on social media, endlessly scrolling, and that can actually keep you busy and entertained and occupied for a few hours every day? Or you can choose to educate yourself how to spend time and build relationships with people or write books or do something for the community.
00:03:19:19 - 00:03:43:05 Raja It's all up to you. So the first thing is, what do you want to focus on? Where do you want to put your efforts? So that's number one. Secondly, I would say that there are a lot of things that we'd like to do, but we don't have to do ourselves. You can delegate effectively both in your work situation as well as in your personal situation.
00:03:43:07 - 00:04:03:11 Raja So, for example, there are a lot of people I know who are very hesitant to give access to their emails, to their assistants, or to their chiefs of staff. But if you give access to them, they can make your life so much more easier because they scroll through everything that is unnecessary that doesn't have to take up your time.
00:04:03:17 - 00:04:24:23 Raja But you need to have confidence in yourself to say, Look, there is nothing there that is hidden that will come to bite me back. So long as you're open, operating with an open kimono, that's fantastic. So I think there are some work related work, as I would say, is not just work at the business context, but work in the personal life as well that you should be having to delegate.
00:04:25:01 - 00:04:47:02 Raja That's number two. So don't be everything yourself. You can't just do everything yourself. And there's so many things that you would like to do. Number three, I would say, is that you need to be really conscious of not wasting time on things that don't matter. A lot of times we sort of get... I'll give you a beautiful example, the CEO of MasterCard.
00:04:47:05 - 00:05:11:00 Raja Right, the current CEO or the previous CEO too. So I'll talk about current CEO, Michael Miebach. He says okay, I'll have a 15 minute monthly meeting with you. That's all that I have with him. Fifteen minutes on a monthly basis. But those are power bank 15 minutes and I don't have... And the fact that I know that is only 15 minutes, I prepare myself extremely well,
00:05:11:02 - 00:05:30:03 Raja the key points, and not be anxious to sort of keep filling up the time, with all kinds of things and to update him about everything that I'm doing. The point is you do that exactly the thing with your team members, with your colleagues, with vendors. People are hungry for your time, but you should realize that this is your time.
00:05:30:05 - 00:05:58:14 Raja You have to manage yourself, and your schedule, and your meetings based on your time. So now things like this, maybe actually one day I should write a book on this. That's a good idea. Thank you. Something useful for me from this podcast already.
Alison I would definitely read that book and I know many of our listeners would as well. That's such great perspective, especially investing in communities and relationships, there's so many studies around what makes for a rich life and a long life.
00:05:58:14 - 00:06:34:21 Alison and those are absolutely core to that.
Raja And in fact, if I can just start one point, in terms of productivity, I find that meditation is one of the best productivity tools. It increases your focus. It increases your clarity of thinking. And somehow you can become much more creative to come to solutions. And I find that that is an incredible way to manage your time, because even, for example, for somebody who is traveling around in various timezones, jet lag is a reality that you have to deal with.
00:06:34:23 - 00:06:55:01 Raja Meditation actually helps you to relax, to get your body reset. And then all the focus and creativity and everything really is at a peak. And I say that that's something which is to be wholeheartedly embraced by people who are looking for productivity tools. Many people look at meditation, God, I have to spend half an hour or 15 minutes on meditation.
00:06:55:01 - 00:07:17:17 Raja I don't have time. But actually, meditation makes time for other things for you because you do things more efficiently.
Alison I've tried to meditate before. I'm a morning runner, so that's become my form of meditation. But you've given me pause and I will absolutely try meditation again. Now, Raja, you kicked off the year on a really inspiring note with a LinkedIn post that highlighted that this in many ways is the golden age of marketing.
00:07:17:18 - 00:07:43:09 Alison You also acknowledge that classical marketers have lost a lot of ground in recent years, and you now see tremendous opportunity for marketers to reclaim their territory in 2024, which is absolutely music to our audience ears. So what trends would you say are making this year the start of the golden age of marketing?
Raja There are multiple things. So firstly, if you look at the technologies that are very, very groundbreaking, right?
00:07:43:09 - 00:08:12:02 Raja In the past you had Internet, you had mobile, you had social platforms. Each one of these or a television or radio, they are all significant technological innovations that disrupted people's lives completely, transformed. And made them into a very, completely different kind of thing. For example, if you look at the pre 1996 era and post 1996 era, when you look back you say how could I have even lived without Internet before?
00:08:12:04 - 00:08:36:07 Raja Right? Internet has changed our lives dramatically and that opens up opportunities for marketing where you say, Hey, now I can reach consumers directly in real time, almost 1 to 1. I can be precise in my targeting. I can be very accurate in my measurements and so on. And that's how digital marketing was born. Same thing happened when mobile and social media came in 2007.
00:08:36:09 - 00:09:01:07 Raja The point is, today, unlike the previous paradigms of marketing, there are 24 new groundbreaking technologies that are coming up. Whether it is AI, or it is augmented reality, virtual reality, blockchains, 3D printing, 5G telecommunications. Already 6G is coming. It's around the corner. There are so many things that are actually happening at the space and proper technology perspective.
00:09:01:09 - 00:09:43:15 Raja Each of these technologies is independently capable of disrupting people's lives and businesses. The confluence of these 24 technologies is going to result in an unprecedented level of disruption. We haven't seen it yet. That's one part of it. But why is it good for marketing? Technology is a great leveller of the competitive field. In the past you had to be a big company with deep pockets to be able to invest in technology. Today, even if you are a tiny company with very modest marketing budgets, you can still access exactly the same technologies that a very large company is able to use. For $20 a month
00:09:43:15 - 00:10:21:11 Raja you can actually access the likes of ChatGPT, which are very powerful from a marketing perspective, probably we can discuss about that. So what happens to that kind of a context is that we have to realize that technology is going to be available to everyone. So you cannot distinguish and differentiate yourself based on technology anymore. Same is true for data, but the data privacy and regulations on one side and extreme collection of data on the other side, there is going to be a lot of anonymized and tokenized data that will be available for marketers across all industries and all companies large and small.
00:10:21:12 - 00:10:53:17 Raja If that is the case, what is going to distinguish one company from another company is its creativity and innovation. That's where marketing comes in. And we as marketers can actually advantage our companies by differentiating them, making them more relevant, making them more compelling to our target audiences. And that's something which is, I think, a dream come true. So today, for example, a lot of companies, particularly on the technology side, give a lot of importance to products, and their product is superior to marketing.
00:10:53:19 - 00:11:21:11 Raja It's ironical. When I was practicing marketing all these years, product was an integral part of marketing. It's the first P of the four Ps of marketing. But today there is a separate Chief Product Officer. There is a separate customer experience officer. So it's got fragmented. Now a product is very, very easy to replicate, particularly given the technological advancement, and the speed in terms of go to market is actually rapidly rising.
00:11:21:11 - 00:11:52:19 Raja So with the result of which, other people can replicate your products with equivalent or better functionality in a heartbeat. So if you want long term disruption, if you want long term differentiation at a competitive advantage, you have to connect emotionally. The emotional connection is what marketing is all about. It's about emote... generate the right emotions, engage consumers in a very compelling fashion and hold them close to you as a brand.
00:11:52:19 - 00:12:15:14 Raja That is what will give you the advantage compared to your competitors. And so marketing is going to be really the function that will drive companies. And therefore this is the golden era of marketing.
Alison That's so well-said and technology as a great leveller is relevant globally. It's particularly relevant in Canada because 80% of our economy is driven by small and medium sized enterprises.
00:12:15:14 - 00:12:38:12 Alison So the fact that they can compete in a way that they haven't been able to in the past is a wonderful opportunity. Now, in looking at the tectonic shifts, do you still think the four Ps of marketing hold true? And it's more how they will be brought to light?
Raja I feel that the entire framework for marketing has to be changed.
00:12:38:13 - 00:13:02:12 Raja And I had a conversation about this with my guru, who is Philip Kotler. If you think about it, the four Ps of marketing were formulated by Philip Kotler more than 60 years back. In 60 years, the world has transformed so dramatically. And that's what was the genesis of me writing this book. And I started asking myself, Are those still relevant?
00:13:02:13 - 00:13:29:08 Raja Is it like gravity, magnetism? These are things which don't change. They are very fundamental. They are foundational. They remain all the time. But is that true for marketing, or are things changing? So if you look at every single aspect of the marketing value chain, the concepts are no longer valid, the processes are completely inaccurate, and what we are doing is totally irrelevant.
00:13:29:10 - 00:13:51:23 Raja And I'm not saying it flippantly or just for effect. I'm saying it because I mean it. And I can tell you, let's take a couple of examples. Now, if you look at something like loyalty, the industry collectively spends about a billion, about $1,000,000,000,000 in RND every year, $1 trillion plus. There was a research report that came from BBC.
00:13:51:23 - 00:14:20:17 Raja It was published in BBC. And when I read it, what I found was that the research said it was being done amongst people who are either in a marriage or they were in a live-in relationship. They asked them, How many of you have cheated on your partners? And the number was an astounding 70%. And a further 15% said that if they are sure they will not get caught, they don't mind straying.
00:14:20:19 - 00:14:49:02 Raja Now, I'm not here to make any value judgment, but when I think about it, I say, look, if 85% of the people who have made some kind of formal commitment already, or informal or implied commitment, and they know that the consequences are terrible if they are caught, still, they're not hardwired for loyalty. If in real life and on far more important things that people are not hardwired for loyalty, we come as marketers and say, You'll spend $1 and each dollar you spend
00:14:49:02 - 00:15:11:07 Raja I'll give you one point and then I'm not pretending that you are loyal to me. That is the biggest fallacy. We are kidding ourselves. And, look at anyone. Like I know, for example, if I look at myself, I have got more than five airline frequent flier program, loyalty program memberships. I've got every single hotel chain. I'm on their loyalty list.
00:15:11:09 - 00:15:41:01 Raja Same thing with grocery chains as well, my everyday spending. I've got Costco, I've got Walmart, I've got Amazon Prime. Who am I loyal to? These are not loyalty programs. They are actually price incentives couched in a program. Loyalty is very, very misplaced in this context. We need stickiness. We need preference. So what, in fact, I suggested is that we should have a different framework to win and keep consumers on an ongoing basis.
00:15:41:03 - 00:16:09:13 Raja And that is what I call a preference management platform. And it should be technological driven and so on. So every area, whether you look at purchase, same thing is true. Market research. I actually started my career in market research and most recently I was chatting with the Head of Market Research and Consumer Insights at Unilever, and both of us were sort of commiserating and said the way we do market research is terrible and what you get is completely useless material and we rely on it as true.
00:16:09:15 - 00:16:32:00 Raja The reason is consumers cannot articulate why they have done something or why they like something. They are all subconscious. By very definition, if you ask somebody why you did it, they have to post-rationalize and tell you, and they are not psychologists to begin with. So the whole aspect of marketing has to be rethought. And that's exactly what I am saying, is what quantum marketing is about.
00:16:32:02 - 00:16:49:23 Raja And I share this with Philip Kotler, and it was so true. He had given me a note which I actually framed it and kept it in my home office because he is my guru and he is saying this is Raja actually what the future is. And what I have done is something which is which was very true for that era.
00:16:50:01 - 00:17:19:20 Raja But I completely agree with you. We need to reinvent ourselves, rethink marketing the concepts, the frameworks, the strategies, and therefore the tactics.
Alison So I'm going to jump to another emerging area that MasterCard is very much leading in, and that's around inclusive design. So you're definitely leading the charge in innovating with inclusive design. And your most recent announcement about Touch is a great example, which brings me to a few different questions, starting with what led to your focus on inclusive design and also if you could share the business case for inclusive design.
00:17:19:20 - 00:17:55:18 Alison I know our listeners would be very interested in that.
Raja Yeah. Firstly, inclusive by design is not about political correctness. I think it's... It should be self evident that if somebody is in a distress and if you are in a position to help, if somebody has a problem and if it can solve that problem, genuinely and their problem might be unique than the rest of the mainstream, so to speak, if you help them, they are grateful to the solution that you have given and they stick by you and you can actually have a very profitable business proposition.
00:17:55:19 - 00:18:19:10 Raja I keep saying that if you pursue purpose, profits will follow. They are not mutually exclusive. So what we really need to think about is how can we do things that are truly inclusive and can we make a business case for it? I'll give you one example. So when we started looking at say, you mentioned about Touch.
00:18:19:12 - 00:18:46:14 Raja So when we started looking at how many blind people out there in the world, and how do they use their payment products today? The experience was shockingly horrible. And we said, My god, the number of blind people in this world, fully blind or partially blind, is about 2 billion. I hope that number is wrong, but that's what statistic after statistic is actually showing.
00:18:46:14 - 00:19:10:05 Raja Assume that the number is 1 billion, it is a humungous number from just from a segment point of view. My grandmother was blind and I have a deep connection to that space, therefore, because growing up I have seen what she went through. Now, in this context, coming back to my business, which is credit cards and payments, payment cards, prepaid cards, debit cards, small.
00:19:10:06 - 00:19:28:18 Raja We said, how can we make it easy for a blind person to be able to use our cards? How do they know which is the front of the card, back of the card, where is the chip? Is it a debit card? Is it a credit card? Is it a MasterCard or some other card? How do they distinguish other than by putting it in a specific slot in that wallet or in their purse?
00:19:28:20 - 00:19:55:03 Raja So we said Braille should be the solution, because everyone is supposed to read Braille. But shockingly, a very tiny percentage of people, less than 10% of people who are sight impaired know how to read Braille. So that cannot be a solution. So we started racking our brains and eventually came up with that extremely simple solution where you provide a small notch on the side of the card, the shape of the notch tells you the type of the card. The location of the notch,
00:19:55:03 - 00:20:16:20 Raja if it is on the right side, just below the centre, you are holding the card the right way. If there is a notch, it is MasterCard. Now in one single small notch, we really came up with a comprehensive nice solution. When we launched it, what happens? It is now one of the fastest growing products that we have got. Highly profitable, already launched in 35 countries around the world.
00:20:16:22 - 00:20:42:03 Raja So there is, the results are coming from a business perspective, but the focus was actually on trying to solve the problem in a real way. And I have received countless emails from, I thought actually, even though my grandmother was blind, somehow I associated blindness with more elderly aged people. What I saw is so many mothers of kids who are teenagers and so on.
00:20:42:05 - 00:21:02:13 Raja They said we are so grateful for the solution because this is life changing for my child. It was unbelievable. The key thing is, it is hitting the right nerve amongst the audiences, those who are your core target audience, as well as the secondary tertiary audiences who are not blind themselves, but see the plight of the blind people.
00:21:02:15 - 00:21:27:13 Raja So this is something which is absolutely energizing. And when you talk of this, you know, purpose driven, that's one thing also which is very important is that attracting the right talent and keeping them at the company is very important, particularly if you are not the highest paid. And we don't want to compete on salaries or compensation. We want to compete on giving them the quality of the satisfaction of their work, right. of what they are doing.
00:21:27:15 - 00:21:53:01 Raja When you become truly purpose driven and really put your money where your mouth is and be consistent in your commitment to the cause and that the purpose you have a higher retention level, you are able to attract all the best talent. So it really solved so many things. So when people said, I have to do something purpose and it is a work thing or it is something which is basically meant for political correctness, I would say, stop, you've got it wrong.
00:21:53:03 - 00:22:12:00 Alison That's such a great example. I was on the board for the CNIB for six years, so I have a personal connection to it as well. But your example is also such a powerful counterpoint to the earlier conversation we had around loyalty, where the loyalty programs that we think are really building that true connection between brands and consumers are flawed.
00:22:12:06 - 00:22:49:13 Alison What you're doing from an inclusive design and recognizing a pain point that was solved with such a brilliant and simple solution is really driving true loyalty. Now, as we look to the future of marketing, what skills are most important for marketers in managing through the tech tsunami that we're all living through?
Raja I would say most of the top marketers, I would say, particularly the classical marketers, they're very good at psychology, sociology, design and areas like that, and the contemporary marketers are the ones who are more quantitative, analytical and they are much more left brained in their thinking.
00:22:49:15 - 00:23:16:15 Raja What you really need is a combination of these two. So which means you need people like Leonardo da Vinci, who are not easy to come by, and if they are there, they don't want to join marketing. They want to be in Silicon Valley or investment bank or be consultants. So we've got a tough challenge on that. But basically one of the things that we have to recognize is the future is going to be with the classical marketers who train themselves and upscale themselves at all technologies, data and finances.
00:23:16:17 - 00:23:34:22 Raja It's a little bit of going against that core grain, how to put the effort. Not to become experts in technology. So, for example, AI is coming, right? It's already upon us. People are saying AI is there, what do we do, how can we use it and stuff like that. But the fact is AI has been around for a long time.
00:23:34:22 - 00:23:57:21 Raja And MasterCard, we have been using it for more than ten years. And they built a whole digital marketing engine using AI and automation out of Singapore, six years back, before gen AI came. Now when gen AI came, that's when the prominence of overall AI has shot up. And many times marketers mean gen AI as the real AI, but as it is just a type of AI across the board.
00:23:57:23 - 00:24:24:23 Raja Now, the point is that if you don't know what AI is and what it can do, you get left behind very quickly. And I have seen the kind of productivity enhancements that AI can give you. It actually like, for example, in the B2B context. Okay. As an example, we have something called the RFP factory, which will respond to various RFPs that are given, sent to MasterCard. It used to take about 7 to 8 weeks before.
00:24:25:01 - 00:24:50:22 Raja Now it takes less than what that one day. One day. It takes, it frees up resources, it standardizes your responses, makes it more accurate and current. And it really looks at all the past RFPs that you have done, takes the tone out of those, takes the creatives out of those and really composes something which is incredibly more powerful than what a human being can do today. And in less than one day.
00:24:51:00 - 00:25:13:01 Raja So what the point is, if I am able to now do these kind of things across the entire marketing value chain, the gains can be incredible. But I talked about the digital marketing, the digital engine in Singapore that we created and now it is all around work. They're getting productivity enhancement between four and eight times. I'm not talking percentages, but I'm talking about multiples.
00:25:13:01 - 00:25:44:17 Raja So that's huge. I can kill my competition with that kind of a productivity. Now if you are not really caught up with the latest and greatest as far as technological enablements are concerned, you'll become obsolete, you'll be left behind. So the first thing I would tell marketers is you need to understand the new technologies. At this stage in my life and in my career, I spend about 5 to 6 hours every week educating myself on something new or deepening my knowledge on a subject that I wanted to pursue deeper.
00:25:44:18 - 00:26:01:06 Raja I think that's one thing people have to do. So skills wise, I would say learning agility today and investing time behind learning is the number one priority.
Alison That's such great advice and if you can find 5 hours to do it, there is no excuse for the rest of us. Now, before we go, you've been very generous with your time.
00:26:01:06 - 00:26:25:15 Alison I'd like to have you share one piece of advice that you think marketers most need to embrace in the year ahead.
Raja Learning. We spoke about it. But the second thing I would also say is that from a company's point of view, any company, I have worked at multiple companies are closely tracked in my voluntary role as the president of WFA, with my peers, CMOs around the countries across various companies.
00:26:25:17 - 00:26:48:22 Raja One of the biggest things is the C-suite in most of the companies doesn't get marketing. Whether it is a CEO, whether it is a CFO, whether it is a CIO, CHRO. Their understanding of marketing is very low. When their understanding of marketing is very low, you don't get full justice for what your team desires and they deserve, right.
00:26:49:00 - 00:27:23:09 Raja And you have to evangelize marketing, that the evangelization of marketing becomes with educating your peers. So one of the things I would say is for the coming year, if there is one priority organizationally that people have to set for themselves, is to build close bridges between themselves and the other C-suite executives and slowly pull them into the fold of marketing, meaning, involve them in their campaign creation, do creative workshops for them. They love get doing those kind of things because in their jobs there is not a whole bunch of creativity, honestly.
00:27:23:11 - 00:27:44:14 Raja Okay, and get them, take them to sponsorship events. Let them see the power of how your brand can be brought to life, how experiences can be curated. When you start drawing in these C-suite colleagues into the fold, what you'll see is they start embracing marketing, the start supporting marketing, then they'll start advocating for marketing. And that's a journey.
00:27:44:14 - 00:28:04:09 Raja It doesn't happen overnight, but I think the beginning of the journey, I would say if marketers are not already doing it, it's high time that you do it. And of course I talked about learning.
Alison That's such great advice and and evangelizing for marketing, it's inherent in the examples you've shared that in doing that effectively, it's all around the business performance and business results
00:28:04:09 - 00:28:23:19 Alison marketing can drive too. When you think about how to get the attention of the CEO and CFO, certainly it's got to be coming from what's in the best interests of the business and how marketing is playing a pivotal role in the success and growth of the business as well.
Raja Absolutely
Alison Well Raja, it has been an absolute delight. Thank you so much and I hope you have a wonderful day.
00:28:23:21 - 00:28:45:18 Raja Thank you, Alison. Thank you very much for having me, and you too, have a great day. Thank you.
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EP13 - Newcomers: Canada's Key to Prosperity
05 Mar 2024
00:29:01
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, sits down with Cynthia Pachovski, CEO of Ipsos Canada and Daniel Bernhard, CEO of the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. Together, they dive into their recent newcomer research, highlighting the myths and realities of racial diversity, the skills and talents newcomers bring, and their role in Canada's prosperity.
00:00:00:05 - 00:00:19:13 Speaker 1 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.
00:00:24:18 - 00:00:53:08 Alison Canada, long known for our cultural diversity, has been a real beacon of hope and new beginnings for many. But beyond the warm welcomes, newcomers play an absolutely pivotal role in our nation's economic strength, as well as our demographic framework. They're more than just new faces. They're central to Canada's character and also Canada's growth. Consider this. In the last five year period, a stunning 79.9% of Canada's population growth has been attributed to immigration.
00:00:54:01 - 00:01:13:19 Alison And it's not just about numbers. It's about the fresh perspectives and skills that they bring with them. Over half of the immigrants who have made Canada their home were economic candidates who are well-poised to help grow and advance our country. The dynamic nature of Canada's economy is very closely linked to the fresh talent and entrepreneurship that's brought in by immigrants.
00:01:14:10 - 00:01:39:07 Alison For our business community and marketers, it's clear. Embracing diversity and innovation of our newest Canadians is key to our country's prosperity. In this episode, I'm thrilled to be joined by Cynthia Pachovski, CEO of Ipsos and Daniel Bernhard, CEO for the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. Ipsos and the Institute for Canadian Citizenship have joined forces to conduct a very robust research study on newcomers to Canada.
00:01:40:01 - 00:02:01:13 Alison In this discussion, we're going to explore the intriguing research findings that not only reveal the substantial contributions that newcomers bring to Canada's growth, but also some of the challenges that they face and the insights that can help revolutionize how we as marketers and citizens connect with and support this dynamic demographic. So welcome, Cynthia and Daniel.
00:02:01:23 - 00:02:02:16 Daniel Thanks for having me.
00:02:03:05 - 00:02:03:20 Cynthia Hello. Hi.
00:02:04:12 - 00:02:15:07 Alison So I'd like to start by having you share how newcomers contribute to Canada's population and economic growth. It would also be great to hear what impact the recent policy changes may have on these contributions.
00:02:15:21 - 00:02:38:23 Daniel Immigrants are, as you know, essential to Canada's future. But actually, I want to also talk before I do that about Canada's past. Canada's been an immigrant nation since that since the very beginning, before Europeans came here, there was lots of migration among Indigenous people from place to place, traveling and having to integrate into communities where they would arrive and abide by those laws. Afterwards were welcomed,
00:02:38:23 - 00:02:59:13 Daniel Europeans were welcomed here by Indigenous people, and the idea of Canada perpetually has been that there's more than enough to go around. It's a bountiful land and that you can come here and not be a renter, so to speak, but an owner of our society, not just a resident but a citizen. It's one of the things that distinguishes Canada from a place like Dubai, for example, where there's a huge foreign-born population.
00:02:59:18 - 00:03:20:20 Daniel They'll just never be owners of that society. You know, in Canada, you can be. And so immigrants continue to play an incredibly important role in Canadian life and the economy. We're talking about 80% of population growth, as you mentioned, over 100% of labour force growth in many cases. And a key driver of innovation, bringing with them ideas and perspectives from around the world.
00:03:21:02 - 00:03:38:16 Daniel The current policy changes that you talked about, well, I think what we see now is that Canada is beginning to turn its back towards immigrants. And at the same time, we see immigrants turning their back towards Canada. We can talk about that a little bit more if you like. But more and more, whether it's housing, health care, the education system,
00:03:38:16 - 00:04:07:22 Daniel Now in post-secondary education, it seems as though immigration is a key variable or axis in any of these policy discussions from a labor supply or, you know, supposed over abundance of demand for these services. We can talk about why those things aren't true if you want. But immigration is becoming a more and more important issue. And we believed really that if an issue this important can't just be managed on a whim, it needs to be managed based on data and based on the contributions of the many tens of thousands of newcomers themselves.
00:04:08:03 - 00:04:20:20 Daniel So many people purport to speak for them, and we decided through this partnership that they could be able to speak for themselves. So it's a central issue in Canada and we wanted to make sure there was really good sound data for policymakers and business leaders alike and to be able to adapt and contribute.
00:04:21:22 - 00:04:30:05 Alison I'd love you to do some myth busting and help us really understand the important role and how some of the things that are in the press really aren't true.
00:04:31:13 - 00:04:57:00 Cynthia So, interestingly, around the housing crisis, there is a sort of a tension here in the sense that the rising immigration is seen as a certain main reason for the housing crisis and most of the newcomers actually suffer from it at the same time. So it's not just on one situation. On one end, it's actually share the problem.
00:04:57:09 - 00:05:11:12 Cynthia 68% of immigrants say that it's the first problem or challenge they are facing when they arrived in Canada and even 86% of them say that the situation is worse than they expected on the matter.
00:05:11:20 - 00:05:32:01 Daniel And so what does this mean? This means that if Canada's dependent on immigrants for economic growth, social vitality and renewal, and all other manner of benefits, we need to stop just thinking about how many immigrants we quote, let in and permit, as though their situation in their home countries is so bad and everything in Canada is so good that the only question is how wide to open the door.
00:05:32:08 - 00:05:50:11 Daniel And what we're seeing is that actually people are coming here and saying, I don't know if I can make it here and they're leaving. And with them go talents and ideas and prosperity and potential. And so one of the things that we really wanted to do is clarify who immigrants are in this study. And that's something that's interesting for policymakers, but also for marketers and business leaders alike.
00:05:50:16 - 00:06:05:15 Daniel It's the only growing segment of the consumer economy and understanding them, I think, will be very beneficial not only in providing better service and meaning in the marketplace, as is probably a phrase that gets thrown around a lot on this podcast, but also for being a contributor to a positive life in the national interest.
00:06:06:18 - 00:06:11:22 Alison Daniel, I'd love to have you share with our listeners your definition of immigrants that were used for the study.
00:06:12:03 - 00:06:34:12 Daniel So the immigrants in this study are members of our Canoo Access Pass, this is an app that the Institute for Canadian Citizenship operates that gives people in their first five years of permanent residency free access to over 2000 of Canada's best culture and nature experiences, discounts with Air Canada, Via rail, pro sports, wine tours, ziplining, whale watching, you name it,
00:06:34:12 - 00:06:58:06 Daniel We got it. And the idea is to make the decision to move to Canada sticking and irreversible that people have a great time here, believe in this place, buy into it, become citizens and contribute for the long haul as Canadians. And so we have served over 400,000 people with this. Historically, there are about 250,000 people who are using it today, and they are the subjects effectively of this, of this research.
00:06:58:06 - 00:07:17:21 Daniel They come from all walks of life, all parts of Canada, and they are quite representative of immigrants themselves. They're younger than the Canadian population in general. They're better educated than the Canadian population in general. They come from very, very high future income potential, and they're quite optimistic and they're looking to make their way. So it's it's a really fascinating audience in a mode of discovery.
00:07:18:06 - 00:07:29:08 Daniel And they have been actually very, very forthcoming and eager to share their perspectives about how Canada can serve them better so that they, in turn, can make future contributions to Canada that are more valuable and enduring.
00:07:29:08 - 00:07:57:03 Cynthia And I would add that by this medium of having access to new Canadians, we are already at the, in the moment, at the perfect timing to be the most representative possible of immigrants because they are being captured precisely when they become citizens. So that's another very positive facts of the approach so that we have the best coverage possible of immigrants.
00:07:58:06 - 00:08:09:03 Alison That's great, Cynthia. I'd love to build on that. Given the importance of newcomers in Canada's growth, I know our listeners will be very interested to hear about the new research you collaborated on and how your two organizations came together.
00:08:10:04 - 00:08:37:11 Cynthia And Ipsos We have been working on this audience, immigrants and newcomers for a while. We have a lot of clients that we have that the requirements within the project and the results that we do. We ourselves have a community online, community offering newcomers where it's more a quality approach. And the big challenge that we have in market research in general is the ability to reach to
00:08:37:11 - 00:09:10:09 Cynthia Newcomers at scale, right? Because there is a lot of granularity, as you can imagine, because of the cultural background differences, because of the origins, the reason why you are coming to Canada, it's so diverse in nature that you need massive samples, if you want, of newcomers, to be able to understand what is at stake. And these granularity could only be a match with such a solution that the app and the members that the ICC has at their disposal.
00:09:10:10 - 00:09:27:13 Cynthia So it was kind of the meeting of the best world in this, and that's a market research founder and our already strong knowledge of newcomers and the ICC expertise and, and a pool of newcomers at their disposal.
00:09:28:02 - 00:09:56:14 Daniel You know and for us, I mean we had this this asset I suppose you can say this this audience, and we were increasingly frustrated by the clear lack of understanding in corporate Canada about who these people are and what they want. And so, for example, you know, there's a trend in advertising, as in the arts and in many other domains, to sort of fetishize diversity, to think that people who come from India, for example, just want to see Indian things.
00:09:56:14 - 00:10:17:12 Daniel And you know, that the multi-multi category, as they used to call it, and this was not only, you know, offensive, but also really counterproductive, our research shows that actually 96% of people who use our service are looking to have interactions with people outside of their cultural, ethnic and social group. And so we saw that this group was actually very misunderstood.
00:10:17:20 - 00:10:42:09 Daniel And Ipsos, as a as a research firm, also seems to have a really strong grasp of the fact that a customer is a whole person. They don't just exist in the marketplace and then go away. They vote, they have political interests, they've got other needs. And so we wanted to reflect that and understand that the stuff you buy and the services you receive and your corporate life as a consumer are huge, huge, huge, huge, huge influences
00:10:42:09 - 00:11:09:03 Daniel on your experience of life in Canada. That's just how it goes. And if we're not able to put the voices of newcomers into boardrooms, then we're going to really limit our impact and our ability to make Canada an enjoyable place. And so this was really a win win. Their philosophy, their focus on ESG really resonated with us. Cynthia's an immigrant herself, understands this experience really well from a personal perspective, and we wanted to put this asset to work in service of our mission.
00:11:09:03 - 00:11:15:14 Daniel So it was a really it was a really wonderful partnership that hopefully will bear fruits not just for us, but also for people who participate and subscribe to the study.
00:11:16:04 - 00:11:55:06 Cynthia And another dimension that making a difference here is your ability to get insights over time. One of the key learning we got from the pre study we did is newcomers are not a static audience and it's the needs and and perception and expectations are evolving, with is actually a pretty short time span. And it's very important to be on top of this evolution and this and these changes to make sure that precisely government and companies can address that at the right time.
00:11:56:06 - 00:12:00:15 Alison What are some of the most surprising findings that you've uncovered in the Newcomers study so far?
00:12:01:09 - 00:12:30:21 Cynthia One of the most interesting fact finding is that from a newcomers' perspective, Canada is not necessarily delivering on promise. Immigration is expected to be one of the key drivers of economic growth in Canada. Still, newcomers say that the situation is worse than they expected before coming, for housing, for their financial situation and also professional integration.
00:12:31:10 - 00:12:58:14 Cynthia So there are a lot of essential aspects at stake when that one of the reason they came to Canada and the situation is not as promising as it was supposed to be. And we have one quote you'll find very interesting to encapsulate, that is, I'm not sure it is worth the money I am losing each year and cannot progress I lack. How and when will I be able to recover from this time gap.
00:12:58:21 - 00:13:08:22 Cynthia So that promise is high and delivering on that promise is an issue that as a society and as an economy, we need to to address.
00:13:09:09 - 00:13:30:19 Daniel I found some really interesting things, you know, for example, people's disappointment with Canada seems to grow, not shrink with the time that they're here. In other words, you would think that someone settles in and has a hard go that and then gradually finds their way. But actually, you know, satisfaction with some of the kind of key pillars of of of the corporate scene declines progressively as people get familiar.
00:13:30:19 - 00:13:52:12 Daniel The more they know, the less they like. There's also some interesting findings, especially around financial services and some other kind of high value sectors where, you know, we see these companies pouring so much money into pre-arrival clients, like trying to get people the first day that they come. But actually there are indications that there are windows of switch-ability resulting from this dissatisfaction
00:13:52:12 - 00:14:12:19 Daniel much later in the piece that some of these companies haven't seem to realize yet. Instead, they're pouring money into people who are pre-arrival, who may be leaving because they're international students or they're on a temporary visa or they don't get permanent residency. So we've started to also see some sort of key disconnects between the data and that sort of typical practices in the marketplace, that I think have been really have been really fascinating.
00:14:12:19 - 00:14:43:23 Daniel But the one that just really jumps out to me is people, as Cynthia said, they do feel welcomed by the government, by society, by other Canadians, and the level of dissatisfaction in some of these major categories, which I don't need to name, but I think you can all guess, suggest that there are real great opportunities for companies that want to be a little bit more ambitious and a little bit more effective to win in this category and in so doing, make light the life experience of newcomers in Canada so much better so that they stay, become citizens and contribute for the long term.
00:14:43:23 - 00:14:52:23 Daniel So there's a lot of opportunity and a lot of zones of opportunity that have been identified just in this formative initial study and in subsequent waves, I think we'll get deeper and deeper into.
00:14:54:09 - 00:15:27:12 Cynthia Link to that, another very interesting fact is that, you know, we were talking about the fact that it's a very dynamic audience, if I may, or group, and you know, the journey and the immigration stage you are in is everything. So at first the expectations are pretty basic. It's more about price, it's pragmatism, it's effectiveness. In the service you are expecting from companies and the time passes and your level of expectations are growing.
00:15:27:17 - 00:15:51:09 Cynthia For instance, we have observed that for banking, the satisfaction never are going down from when you arrived until the third year. Let's say it's almost the fourth year of your arrival in Canada. And that's when churn is likely to happen, right? And then we go to another bank, right, to get better, a better service, because your expectation has grown.
00:15:51:09 - 00:16:10:18 Cynthia You have started to build a life for yourself. You have your assets, certainly back from your country of origin, and the level of expectation is completely different. So adapting to these dynamics is essential for businesses to continue to to succeed with this consumer group.
00:16:11:11 - 00:16:28:09 Alison Beyond the dissatisfaction, you also mentioned that the situation is insenting newcomers to opt out of Canada, and that's clearly a trajectory that we would want to change. So do you have any initial learning or advice on what we can do to improve the situation for newcomers so that they don't opt out and decide to leave Canada?
00:16:29:03 - 00:16:50:00 Daniel I'd like to just take a second, if I may, some of your listeners may not be familiar with the extent to which immigrants are opting out of Canada. We published a study at the end of October last year in collaboration with the Conference Board of Canada, called The Leaky Bucket, which actually answered a question that I had for two years that, you know, how many immigrants are staying in Canada and actually the government didn't know.
00:16:50:00 - 00:17:11:03 Daniel And until we looked into it, no one had bothered to check, which is revealing in and of itself, showed that Canada's immigration retention rate has declined by 31% in recent years. We're talking about, you know, significant changes. It used to take 25 years for 20% of an immigrant cohort to leave the country. Now it takes less than 20 years and that's shrinking
00:17:11:03 - 00:17:38:16 Daniel considerably. Among certain cohorts, it's even higher. So investor class, entrepreneur class, small and medium business owners, people who are admitted in these categories are almost twice as likely to leave the country within ten years as their counterparts in other immigration categories. So this is humongous. I mean, from a from a consumer segment perspective, it's huge. From a labour force perspective, it's a humongous problem. From a capital investment perspective, it's a huge, huge issue.
00:17:38:22 - 00:17:58:13 Daniel So I think Canada doesn't necessarily realize that our story of immigrants being people who show up with no English and $5 in their pocket like my parents did, work hard and make their way through and all that kind of stuff. We still tell that story. You know who the contemporary immigrant is? It's Cynthia, who's the CEO of a major corporation of the Canadian outlet.
00:17:58:17 - 00:18:24:18 Daniel Right? With major global experience. And if she decides that Canada isn't working for her, that's our loss, not hers. And so we need to shift our mindset from immigration being something that we do as an exercise of compassion to something that we do as an exercise of ambition and realize that we are competing with other countries in the world, including the home countries that these people come from, whose economic status has increased dramatically in recent decades.
00:18:25:01 - 00:18:58:19 Daniel And so, you know, if you're a phone provider in Canada as a telco, I'm just giving an example, you know, you're Bell, you're not just competing against Rogers and Telus, you're competing against the standard of people in India who are able to get way better service for way less money, and that's their expectation that you're competing against. So I think we just need to recognize that as Canada's become more and more selective about who we bring into the country, that the status and quality and characteristics and capabilities of the immigrant population has grown immeasurably, which means that they also are more mobile and they have other options.
00:18:59:01 - 00:19:14:21 Daniel And if they exercise those options, that's bad for your business from a staffing perspective, it's bad for your business from a consumer perspective, and it's bad for the entire country that needs both your business and the employment market and all of these other things to be humming and growing. Immigration has been the source of that growth and immigrants turn their back on Canada,
00:19:14:21 - 00:19:35:21 Daniel Canada is the one who pays the price. So that's been the situation. And in terms of winning, in terms of making the situation better, like I said earlier, a better experience in daily consumer life makes a difference. If you get off the phone with your cell phone company and they're ripping you off and charging all kinds of terrible fees and you feel terrible about it, you will say, Why did I come here?
00:19:35:21 - 00:19:56:01 Daniel This is awful, right? And so it's not just about your consumer experience, but which company you choose. This informs your experience of life in Canada. And I think that companies need to be recognizing that they're having a bigger impact, not just whether they win or lose a customer, but actually whether Canada wins or loses a contributor. It's much bigger than just your business.
00:19:56:13 - 00:20:29:00 Cynthia Fun fact - to illustrate what Daniel is saying is, when we ask a question about how do you feel treated, if you feel welcome, new Canadians, as well as Canadians by the way, feel very positive about it, but it's relatively less about businesses, how they are treated and welcomed by businesses than any other institutional non-for-profit organization. So it's not negative, but they don't say like we are not welcome, we are not treated well, but relatively less than other instances.
00:20:29:00 - 00:20:51:01 Daniel And this should be obvious to marketers, right? I mean, you know, marketers don't sell that we have the best widget for less money, right? They sell, they sell existential stuff, they sell belonging, they sell status, they sell sex appeal, they sell whatever. Right. Marketers intuitively should understand that people's relationship with these products are associated with broader satisfaction with life.
00:20:51:08 - 00:21:00:18 Daniel And what we're seeing is that in this category anyways, people don't seem to totally get it. And that message is getting through to immigrants and it affects the degree to which they think that Canada is a viable choice.
00:21:01:21 - 00:21:21:12 Alison So given Canada's cultural mosaic, lots of smart marketers have long embraced multicultural marketing. It might be tempting for some brands to think that their multicultural marketing also addressed newcomers. So it would be really helpful for you to speak to some of the key differences that are really unique to newcomers and how best to reach and market to them.
00:21:22:12 - 00:21:44:03 Daniel While this Ipsos study doesn't get into that right away, and as Cynthia said before, we're just going to become more and more granular, more and more specific as the study picks up momentum, I can tell you from other research that the Institute for Canadian Citizenship has done ourselves on the same population that, you know, we've learned that there are some major blind spots that marketers have.
00:21:44:08 - 00:22:05:10 Daniel For example, assuming that people's attachment to their home culture is greater than their desire to integrate into Canadian society. You know, we're a small team. We have 33 people on our staff. They come from 18 different countries. And so we're able to get a pretty strong perspective just in the office. And people say, I didn't want to live in Pakistan anymore.
00:22:05:10 - 00:22:31:09 Daniel I wanted to move to Canada. And as much as it's great to receive my marketing in Urdu, I speak English very well. I've got a Ph.D. which I wrote in English, and I want to know what life is like here. And so this idea of belonging into the country, of treating newcomers in many cases is like a separate fetishized category, that don't speak the language, that have no cultural awareness and need to be sort of spoon fed in these strangely patronizing ways which people believe,
00:22:31:09 - 00:22:48:19 Daniel I think, they intention them well, they believe them to just be accommodation or welcoming or flexibility or, you know, whatever you want to use. But actually it sort of disregards what people's experience tends to be, which is they want to come to Canada, They want to do stuff that Canadians do, and they want to be they want to be involved.
00:22:48:19 - 00:23:10:02 Daniel And so I think that's that's one big difference that we're learning and also that sensitivities like, you know, price and things like that apply even more so to this population that has big expectations about improving their lot in life compared to the typical consumer who of course, wants to make more money and do better, but may have smaller ambitions or smaller expectations of a big jump
00:23:10:09 - 00:23:30:06 Daniel than someone who's made such a dramatic move as to move country. They're expecting something much more and they're much more price-sensitive. So there's that plus the sort of cultural misunderstanding in the marketing. I think these are two things that our other research have taught us need to be addressed. And this research, that tells us what we don't want to do in this research, I think will start to tell us what we do want to do
00:23:30:10 - 00:23:34:06 Daniel And that's where I think the main value will be, will be to the subscribers.
00:23:35:10 - 00:24:19:04 Cynthia Another important fact that can help your point here is the impact and the importance of influencers. Like influencers of newcomers, particularly in the first few years. There is a lot of community building for newcomers and yeah this, not new Canadians that have been there for a while become a source of influence of advice for newcomers and that's more where the community express itself within this group.
00:24:20:03 - 00:24:45:12 Daniel Anecdotally I'll just add one last thing, which is that I think that newcomers to some extent feel exploited. They feel exploited by landlords, they feel exploited by educational institutions, they feel undervalued by their employers in large respect, and their statistics to bear that out. And to the extent that they just get marketed at, you know, very aggressively and quite transparently, based on their immigration status, I think people get defensive.
00:24:45:12 - 00:25:02:04 Daniel And one of the main advantages of our Canoo Pass, marketing through it, but also the research that we derive as a result from it, is that we are trusted in a sense because we're giving gifts. We're telling people, you're welcome, you're welcome here, you're in demand here, and we're going to put you up at the front of the line.
00:25:02:04 - 00:25:17:13 Daniel And so I think that building a trust relationship is also very important. And and we may not be doing that enough. Now, that's not something that our research bears out just yet. You could perhaps make associations, but it's something that we found in our general experience that I think marketers would do well to take to heart.
00:25:18:02 - 00:25:28:04 Alison So to close off our discussion, I'd love to have you each share one piece of advice for our listeners around what they can do to support and encourage newcomers to Canada.
00:25:29:00 - 00:26:08:00 Cynthia Now in French, we have a saying that says ********** meaning the advisors are not the ones paying the bills. What I would say is - listen, listen, be open, listen dynamically. Newcomers, as we said, it's a very moving dynamic group, that to make sure every dollar you invest in them, you get the return to investment that you want.
00:26:08:00 - 00:26:22:19 Cynthia You need to capture the essence of what they need at the moment they need it. That makes it pretty both interesting as marketers to work on, and that's what's going to the most rewarding for you.
00:26:23:13 - 00:26:41:00 Daniel The other thing I would just emphasize is to remember that when you're investing in a relationship with with a newcomer to Canada, you're not just investing in a new customer. Like when Bell calls me and says, go, you know, come from Rogers or Rogers calls me and says, come from Bell, and we just play this game back and forth.
00:26:41:18 - 00:27:13:17 Daniel You're investing in a lifelong relationship with somebody who will associate your brand and their experience with your brand, with how they perceive life in Canada more generally. And so you're doing a huge service to Canada, especially in these fundamental categories, if your customers are satisfied. But more than that, people who are facing discrimination, who are being charged rent too high, who don't know anybody who are having trouble making social networks, they will remember the people who treated them well.
00:27:13:17 - 00:27:37:01 Daniel And we could do a whole other podcast about brand stories from immigrants that I've heard who say when we came here and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we always eat at this restaurant every single time that we go on a road trip, because of that relationship between that restaurant and our immigration journey. You are talking to people at a hugely influential, open minded point in their lives when they're building lifelong brand loyalties in Canada.
00:27:37:16 - 00:27:49:04 Daniel That's a real opportunity that's different than just winning another switcher. And if you don't realize that, I think it will be to your detriment. So that would be the other thing. These are not just normal customers. This is a lifelong relationship at stake.
00:27:49:12 - 00:28:12:17 Alison So not surprisingly, this has been an incredibly insight, rich discussion. You have also done a really great job of myth busting and really bringing to light the important role of immigrants to our country, as well as the sophistication and, and who they are and challenged certainly my thinking, and others thinking, and stereotypes to become a lot more broad.
00:28:13:03 - 00:28:28:17 Alison So huge thank you, Cynthia and Daniel, for a truly great discussion. I'm fascinated to see how the research continues. Would love to have you both back in a few months to share some updates, but thank you both for a really, really great discussion.
00:28:29:00 - 00:28:29:13 Speaker 4 Thank you.
00:28:29:13 - 00:28:33:10 Speaker 3 Thank you.
00:28:33:10 - 00:28:53:20 Speaker 1 Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.
EP12 - Inspiring Change with Kim Saunders
20 Feb 2024
00:20:46
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Kim Saunders, Vice President of ESG Strategy and Community Impact at Canadian TireCorporation. Canadian Tire is dedicated to business growth and creating real change through philanthropy, ESG initiatives, fostering diversity, equity, and inclusion, championing gender equality in sports, and giving back to communities to shape a brighter future for Canada for generations to come.
00:00:00:07 - 00:00:22:12 Unknown Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.
00:00:22:14 - 00:00:46:01 Alison Welcome to a pivotal discussion on marketers and brands embracing ESG, environmental, social and governance. It's a strategy that's proving to be more than just an ethical choice, but absolutely a transformative business advantage and a really important way for marketers and businesses to get back to the communities that they're part of. Amidst the cultural shift towards environmental consciousness, as well as social accountability,
00:00:46:03 - 00:01:10:18 Alison ESG is often taking centre stage. And again, it's not merely as a compliance checklist, but as a core pillar of visionary business leadership. Beyond being the right thing to do, it's also smart business. Companies that are integrating ESG principles are witnessing very tangible benefits. They're seeing improved investment returns, enhanced brand loyalty and business resilience in the face of global challenges.
00:01:10:19 - 00:01:45:14 Alison In Canada, the positive ripples of ESG centred operations resonate with heightened consumer expectations that are driving companies to innovate for a better tomorrow. In today's episode, we're joined by an absolute leading light in corporate Canada's journey towards sustainability and impactful community engagement. It's a pleasure for me to have Kim Saunders with us today as the vice president of ESG Strategy, Community Impact and Sponsorships for Canadian Tire. Kim's responsible for the strategic development and programmatic build out of the company's ESG strategy and philanthropic spending.
00:01:45:16 - 00:02:06:14 Alison She also leads the marketing and fundraising support for the company's charity partner, Jumpstart, and has successfully developed some really exciting strategic community and sports partnerships. We're really looking forward to chatting with her about those today. So Kim, I'm absolutely thrilled to have you on our podcast. Kim Amazing. Thank you for having me. Alison So, Kim, as you know, I had the pleasure of chatting with Canadian
00:02:06:15 - 00:02:30:21 Alison Tire Chief Brand and Customer Officer Susan O'Brien on CMA Connect last year. It was very evident from that conversation and also from the one that you and I had earlier, that in addition to Canadian Tire being a renowned Canadian brand and delivering strong, consistently powerful business results and growth, you're also very much focused on giving back to the country and communities that you're part of.
00:02:30:23 - 00:02:50:18 Alison I know philanthropy and ESG have been a longstanding part of the Canadian Tire business, and approach. I also understand that it evolved fairly dramatically throughout the pandemic. So can you share a little bit about how it evolved and how that impacted your brand values? I know our listeners will also really enjoy hearing how you're now focusing your efforts from an ESG perspective.
00:02:50:23 - 00:03:08:04 Kim Yeah, absolutely. I'm thrilled to be here and talk about this topic. It's very near and dear to my heart and to us as a brand. As you mentioned, we've been around for 100 years. You're hard pressed to find a Canadian who doesn't know who Canadian Tire is and one of the most critical things they'll tell you is how much we support our community.
00:03:07:00 - 00:03:28:12 Kim And it is, it's been part of the DNA of the organization. If you go right back to the founders. They created a dealer model, which with the notion that we would share the business with others. The dealer model was about helping others take advantage and grow their own businesses. So right into the roots of the organization you get that notion of sharing and helping others.
00:03:28:17 - 00:03:49:06 Kim And as you follow the company's journey throughout the hundred years, you'll see many times where they were there for any disaster, any community need. The creation of Jumpstart that you mentioned earlier, helping kids with financial need, get access to sport and play. We are there when Canadians need us, and our dealer community are so generous at a local level as well.
00:03:49:06 - 00:04:11:17 Kim They are part of every philanthropic or community event that happens, and it's just it's part of who we are. But the pandemic was a really interesting moment for us because the country needed more than just what we sell and just our work that we do in sport. The country needed us to show up in a different way. None of us had been through something like this and we did what we always do.
00:04:11:17 - 00:04:34:15 Kim We showed up with our Covid response fund, and we put money into the needed charities, but we put PPE into the hands of frontline health care workers, which is not something you would typically think of as an action Canadian Tire would do. But it's what people needed from us. And that really spawned that internal look at ourselves to say, Hey, our role here is so much bigger in this country than just what we sell.
00:04:34:17 - 00:04:57:13 Kim And it is bigger than just helping kids get into sport. So critical that that action, but we also can do and should do more and that really spawned us looking inward at our brand purpose and revising it is what I would say. It's not a new action, it's a modernization of it and bringing forward. So we live by the mantra that we are here to make life in Canada better.
00:04:57:16 - 00:05:16:18 Kim That's our role. That's what we're here to do. And ESG, so our environmental actions, our social actions, and even how we govern ourselves is proof to that. It's the trust that you can put in us because we treat the planet and the people in our communities with the utmost respect. We do more for them and we give more than we take.
00:05:16:18 - 00:05:48:02 Kim And that's really where this all started for us.
Alison That's such a great combination of, the core to the business for 100 years and as the world around you, as Canadians around you are changing and evolving, you're staying true to your core principles and values, but doing it in a way that will resonate with today's consumers and tomorrow's. So your evolved vision is to be applauded and your deep commitment to ESG is absolutely something that I am thrilled to have your company leading.
00:05:48:04 - 00:06:09:21 Kim Amazing. Thank you.
Alison You certainly have a lot of well-deserved press around your decision to dedicate half of your sponsorship dollars towards women in sport. The act of actually doing it and making that commitment by a brand of your magnitude and profile within Canada is a first. And I have to say, as a woman who has personally benefited from sport in my life, I absolutely applaud the initiative.
00:06:09:23 - 00:06:28:04 Alison I'd really love you to tell us what led to that decision and what made now the right time to make the commitment.
Kim Yeah, it's an amazing thing that we do. Sport, as you know, as we mentioned off the top, is so foundational to us at Canadian Tire. We just believe in its power to impact children, to impact families, to impact lives at any age.
00:06:28:06 - 00:06:55:05 Kim And we first started having a conversation around sport back in 2018 when the women started coming back from the Olympics with lots and lots of gold medals. And we knew then that women in this country were poised for something really great. It wasn't something we really dove too deep into, partially because the infrastructure wasn't there. There wasn't really a place for women to go post-Olympics.
00:06:55:05 - 00:07:15:02 Kim For many sports, that is sort of the pinnacle. Or you end up going outside of your own borders of your country to play the sport you love. And for various reasons, both the infrastructure not being there, our organization being focused on a few things, we kind of let it sit there and bubble as we knew it was something we wanted to dig into, and we knew that the time had to be right.
00:07:15:04 - 00:07:44:17 Kim And then we sort of started to watch what was happening. And then some really impactful research came out of Canadian women in sport around the marketplace for women's professional sport, the business opportunity and really driving the case. And we kind of said to ourselves, now's the time. We can take a leadership position here. We can try and take all that great research and great experience that we're seeing out there and put our weight of our brand behind it and create that impactful change that we want to see.
00:07:44:19 - 00:08:09:00 Kim And so that time came to us because the infrastructure was starting to be built with the women's PWHL league starting to take shape, with Diana Matheson's Project 8 and her desire to create a domestic soccer league here starting to take shape, the WNBA bringing their first exhibition game here to Canada and it blowing the roof off Scotiabank Arena with people wanting to see more.
00:08:09:02 - 00:08:20:16 Kim So we knew there was momentum and we knew that we had a brand that could take a leadership role and help drive that further.
00:08:20:18 - 00:08:28:07 Alison And what's the response been like from your employees, your store owners, and you consumers?
Kim I think it's been even more than we could have imagined. We knew this would be a big moment. We did not expect it to be this big.
00:08:28:09 - 00:08:55:04 Kim Our employees could not be prouder of the actions we've taken. We hear it daily from them. We have had incredible response from female athletes, from other brands calling us, calling our other senior leaders to say, great, courageous job. We can't believe you took the leadership to do that. There's nothing greater than your C-suite getting a call from someone else's C-suite saying, great job.
00:08:55:06 - 00:09:21:20 Kim The industry has taken note of it. And I think what's most important is I see the consumers and the fans showing up to those events. You just have to try and get a ticket to a PWHL game in Toronto to know that there's something real here. There's something magical, and I'm thrilled to be able to be on the sidelines of what's going to happen with Project 8, what potentially could happen in basketball and any other sports that might come to life through this.
00:09:21:21 - 00:09:46:05 Kim So we are not the only brand in this game anymore. And that's the most exciting part, is that we were able to, yes, for us take a leadership position, but hopefully help spark some change that helps move others on to that side of the field.
Alison In Canada and globally, there's been a bit of a misperception that women's sporting events can't attract the same sort of audience and revenue and viewership as male sports.
00:09:46:05 - 00:10:12:20 Alison So I love the fact that you played a pivotal role in myth-busting and helping Canadians, and even globally, to build up appreciation that absolutely a great athlete is a great athlete and we are at least as compelling. So thank you.
Kim My pleasure. Listen, as a woman who loved sport and as a mother of a daughter in sport, I just I think this is so needed and honestly, it's great sport to watch whatever gender they're on, the ice or the field,
00:10:12:20 - 00:10:35:22 Kim it's a great sport to watch. And it's really exciting for me that we've been able to make such a big movement on the gender front, and it encourages me with the other parts of our strategy around sport and equity, which is helping Bipoc communities, LGBTQ communities, communities, indigenous communities. How do we help make sure that sport in this country is equal and welcoming and inclusive?
00:10:36:00 - 00:11:03:07 Kim That's the goal and I hope we're here for many years to come doing doing this work.
Alison Kim, with your really rich experience in driving these types of initiatives for it, what advice do you have for marketers who want to drive impactful ESG programs and don't have your personal experience and are probably earlier in the journey than you?
Kim Yeah, I think I think there's a few things I'd say to someone who was looking at this space and excited by it, which is - Dig in, learn.
00:11:03:09 - 00:11:36:09 Kim There's a ton of great information out there, literature, research, examples of brands who've taken advantage of the moment. So get out there and see who's done this and learn from it. A great resource that I love to share with people and really a foundational key to how we've built our ESG strategy is the Porter and Kramer Shared Value principle. Porter and Kramer are a couple of Harvard professors who a few years ago created the Shared Value Initiative, which is really the notion that you can have societal benefit and profit together.
00:11:36:09 - 00:11:58:08 Kim And as a corporation, it's not just an opportunity, it's actually your obligation. It's a bit of a challenge on capitalism and its traditional state. So we really are embedded that into our thinking. And I would challenge people to go out there, learn about it, think about it, how they can bring that to life. I'd like to talk about this work is, it's actions before adds You have to have meaningful action.
00:11:58:08 - 00:12:23:06 Kim You need meaningful, positive change for the stakeholders you're engaging with. And from that comes the best, richest storytelling you'll ever get. When you start with - How do I get the ad or the TV campaign or the marketing award for it? I think you lose a little bit of that richness and potential depth when you start with - How can I make a meaningful impact on the planet, on the people who are on this planet?
00:12:23:08 - 00:12:50:14 Kim If I think about the impact I can have, the stories will start to tell itself. And in fact, all of those stakeholders will help you tell that story of your journey. So I think that's a big thing, I'd say. The other part is just put your elbows up and get to the table. Ask your organization because you will find out that they are advocates for much of this work, whether it's protecting the environment or helping communities drive equality or being there for social change.
00:12:50:14 - 00:13:08:21 Kim Your employee base, your leadership, they all have personal views to this and I think you can harness a lot of power in looking at your employee base.
Alison That's great advice. Kim. I love your mantra, actions before ads. I'd love to hear if you could you give us an example of one of the stories that emerged from some of the actions that you took?
00:13:09:02 - 00:13:32:06 Kim Absolutely. Something that I might share with this group of listeners that I think could be very valuable would be how we have thought about diversity, equity and inclusion. In 2020, when George Floyd was murdered, all brands thought about how they could participate in a social conversation that was much needed. And we really chose the action of we need to think about this internally first.
00:13:32:09 - 00:13:52:21 Kim We need to think about - look inside ourselves and figure out what we need to fix about ourselves and take care of our employees. And from there we will then have an opportunity to talk about it later as a brand. And frankly, we sort of said you probably won't see an ad from us talking about our our diversity and inclusion strategies any time soon.
00:13:53:00 - 00:14:17:12 Kim What you're going to see us do is make conscious decisions about the products that are on our shelves or not on our shelves. Make conscious decisions about the spaces that we put into our regular advertising or into our marketing initiatives. You're going to see us talk to our employees in a different way. So we've taken the tone of - we could have put an ad campaign out there, but we've chosen to actually drive meaningful impact with our current stakeholders.
00:14:17:17 - 00:14:43:17 Kim And that in and of itself is how we come to market.
Alison So the CMA is part of annual most influential brands each year and earlier in the year we unveiled the 2023 most influential brands. One of the key insights that came out of this year's study was the really important role that partnerships and sponsorships can have in a brand's ability to influence consumers and clients in particular.
00:14:43:19 - 00:15:16:09 Alison I know that you got a lot of great relationships and partnerships and sponsorships, so I'd love to understand your approach to selecting the right partnerships and sponsors.
Kim Yeah, and I've had a long time in partnerships and sponsorship, and so I am a big believer in what that medium can do. To your point, from influencing change and driving opportunity for your business and your brand, but also in creating the stories that are so rich for an integrated marketing team to be able to play with. What goes into our strategy is, is a combination of things.
00:15:16:10 - 00:15:40:22 Kim It's about who the partner is and what they do. That's where we generally start. What's the impact they are having, what is the impact that they can have on the community with your support? And that community can be anything from a sort of more philanthropic social issue, straight up to, you know, professional sports and having an impact on inspiring kids and adults alike.
00:15:41:00 - 00:16:00:07 Kim So it's not necessarily about a social or a traditional ESG partnership. It could be any kind of partnership. But what are the values of that organization? What do they offer? What can you build together? And then how do you make sure that you are creating something that gives more than you take back? That's some of the things that we look at.
00:16:00:09 - 00:16:26:02 Alison That's very helpful. Thank you. So marketing budgets, certainly by extension sponsorships, and ESG initiatives, can often be the first to face cuts during tough economic times. I'm curious about how you maintain your commitment to those areas when you're faced with financial constraints, in particular, how do you continue to drive and advance your company's purpose during periods of budget pressures, which could include everything up to staff layoffs?
00:16:26:02 - 00:16:53:23 Kim Yeah, it's a great question because obviously when economies are in a tough state and businesses are looking at cost cutting with with regards to the current situation, it's an easy place to think about sponsorship and partnerships to go. What I would say is your values don't change because the economy's in a tough spot. So if you've entered into that partnership based on mutual values and mutual opportunity to impact the country, that's not going to change.
00:16:54:05 - 00:17:19:12 Kim How you bring it to life may change, how you operationalize it for that year may slightly adjust, but the value of being together as a partner won't. And so I think it's about choosing wisely when you go into that relationship. Good economy, bad economy. It's about thinking about why are we in this together and what are we achieving so that you know that when tough times hit, you still want to be in that relationship together.
00:17:19:14 - 00:17:38:19 Alison That's super helpful, Kim, and I love your call out that when times are tough, they're not just tough for our businesses and our brands. They're tough for the people that your sponsorships and your initiatives are helping serve, too. So it's in many ways the worst time to be walking away from a support when it can be also the time that's most needed.
00:17:38:21 - 00:17:59:00 Kim Yeah, absolutely. I think it is a time to double down and it's hard to do, absolutely, when you're faced with those pressures of the business reality, especially if you're a publicly traded company. There's just a business reality to it. But that's really the time to almost double down, particularly if they are things that impacts your employee base or whether they impact communities that are marginalized communities.
00:17:59:00 - 00:18:20:16 Kim That's where they need us the most. So, maybe you rethink that relationship, but I don't know that you always walk from that.
Alison So Kim, you have shared so many incredibly valuable insights with us today. Before I let you go off to your busy day though, I would love to take the opportunity to have you share one piece of advice for marketers.
00:18:20:16 - 00:18:47:01 Kim One piece of advice. If you are going to enter into the ESG realm, I would say roll your sleeves up, lean in to the table, get your elbows up. It's not always an easy fight. You are definitely asking for things that are sometimes ten and 15 years down the line when they return on that investment. You're asking for things that seem sometimes to be counterintuitive to the day to day running of the business.
00:18:47:03 - 00:19:07:05 Kim But if you believe in it and you know it's got that impact, roll your sleeves up, get your elbows up, get to the table and ask and know that it's a long time journey, but it's based on the right thing.
Alison I love that advice and I'm going to actually squeeze in one more question coming off of your advice. What attracted you to this particular part of building brands in marketing?
00:19:07:05 - 00:19:27:14 Kim What attracted me to this type of work was the opportunity to have an impact. Real meaningful impact, and being able to tie products and a strong business to a strong community and a strong country. To me, that is the ultimate opportunity here, is we can grow our business and we can do some good in the world.
00:19:27:14 - 00:19:53:13 Kim And I think that that for me is that is what's the most attractive about it. I don't have to pick, you know, whether we can make some money or I can have a good job with doing something for others in need. I get to be able to do both. And I think as brands, what an amazing opportunity for us to change the shape of this country, to change the way our planet is, is situated right now, to be able to do that and still grow a healthy business.
00:19:53:15 - 00:20:28:12 Alison I am so glad I snuck in. One last question. Thank you for indulging me. I love the way you answered that and how you're demonstrating the critical role the marketing profession plays in both building business and building our country. So Kim, it has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much and continued success.
Kim Thank you. I appreciate you having me here and championing this work and this way of thinking where I think it's an amazing opportunity for all marketers to get behind it.
00:20:28:14 - 00:20:41:03 Unknown Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.
EP11 - Navigating the B2B Evolution with Jay Badiani
06 Feb 2024
00:22:52
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Jay Badiani, Chief Marketing Officer at IBM Canada. They'll explore the shifting B2B landscape, from new trends to cybersecurity challenges, and discuss IBM's mission to lead in business AI solutions, particularly within the Canadian context.
00:00:02:10 - 00:00:45:15
Welcome to Cinema Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMS CEO Allison Simpson.
Alison Simpson
In today's ever evolving B2B marketing landscape, we're witnessing a transformative shift in both strategies and priorities. So as Canadian businesses are seeking to stay competitive and relevant through an incredible tsunami of change, it's absolutely imperative that marketers embrace new technologies, really bring a learning mindset to what they're doing, and take advantage of all the tools that are available to them today.
00:00:45:17 - 00:01:06:11
Alison Simpson
So to guide us through this very exciting time, I'm absolutely thrilled to have Jay Baghdadi, the chief marketing officer of IBM Canada, joining us today. With Jay's wealth of experience leading a client centric and agile team across the full marketing mix, he's uniquely qualified to offer a great vantage point into the insights that are shaping the needs of B2B companies across diverse industries.
00:01:06:12 - 00:01:26:14
Alison Simpson
So welcome, Jay. Thank you very much for having me, Allison. So let's kick things off with the diversity of clients and industries that IBM partners with. You have a really broad perspective, broader than most. So now that you were in the first quarter 2020 for AJ, what B-to-B trends are you seeing yourself from your role and also among your clients?
00:01:26:16 - 00:02:13:19
Jay Badiani
Yeah, that's a really great question, and especially because we've seen really strong economy in the last few years being slowed down a little bit. So there are some shifting trends where we see clients coming to us talking about growth and where they're going to find new clients and how they're going to retain clients. It's very important giving the slowdown in the economy that some are projecting and as well, we're seeing clients talk to us about their bottom line and always looking for help on managing cost and even more so looking at productivity and how they can help their employees work on the right things, work smarter and do a better job again, serving clients.
00:02:13:21 - 00:02:39:22
Jay Badiani
So those are two real trends we're seeing in industry today, is ever more focus on the top line and a continuing focus on cost management and the bottom line.
Alison Simpson
I know all of those will absolutely be resonating with our listeners. So without giving away anything confidential, can you share some of the recommendations? Are ways that you're advising or helping support your clients, answering those important questions?
00:02:40:00 - 00:03:07:20
Jay Badiani
Yes, absolutely. So I'll start where IBM comes from, the position that we want to be the number one provider of artificial intelligence services for business. AI for businesses is what we call it. It's actually a marketing campaign and it very much addresses what those concerns are and the challenges that we see clients having. We come at this from the context of how can IBM help?
00:03:07:21 - 00:03:48:11
Jay Badiani
There's been a, you know, a giant amount of conversation around A.I., and we come at this from a point of view. A we can be a trusted AI provider for our clients. And, you know, just talking about the top line and where where clients can scale and find new clients as well as how they can be productive. We have a platform we've introduced called Watson X and Watson has different elements of the platform that provide clients with the ability to look at their customer base, understand better where the clients are and what they might be seeking.
00:03:48:13 - 00:04:19:18
Jay Badiani
There's actually an assistant. It's an app that's built on Watson X called Watson X Assistant, and we have many clients using that to serve their clients better. And then we've also got another app on the Watson next platform called Watson Next Orchestrate. And that's one that's the generative AI digital app where our clients can go in and understand their course better and feed in a corpus of data feed in as big a model as they have or as much information they have to help their employees be more productive.
00:04:19:19 - 00:04:36:20
Jay Badiani
Like you said, not trying to share anything confidential, but this is an app I really like to share when I'm just meeting with people. An example of this Watson orchestrator app is something i have on my phone called Ask h.R. And no matter where I am, no matter what time of day it is, i can go to that app and all of our h.r.
00:04:36:20 - 00:04:55:05
Jay Badiani
Policies are in there. It's connected into our actual h.r. system of record, and i can connect any h.r. Transaction day and night, whether it's publishing a salary letter, whether it's for someone who's looking for i have an employee is looking for a mortgage, and they need a salary letter. You know, I can get that out to them any time of day or night.
00:04:55:06 - 00:05:19:03
Jay Badiani
If I have an employee to changing departments, I can, you know, move them from one department to another. If I have an employee who's looking for information about taking a leave of absence or if I need to even process a leave of absence of someone, you're not going to be at work for a period of time. I can do that all from a simple app, just literally typing in a natural language, English language, and on the transactions will actually happen.
00:05:19:03 - 00:05:41:22
Jay Badiani
So that's just an example of digital labor in a way that, you know, IBM, we're doing this internally for ourselves and we're actually marketing it to clients as well to help them be more productive.
Alison Simpson
That's a great example. And you're absolutely right. They're not just marketers all business people are looking at how do I understand Gen AI, and how can I leverage to help it make me more efficient and make my teams more scalable and more productive?
00:05:42:00 - 00:06:03:04
Alison SImpson
I love the example that you used on the H.R. side. Do you have some other examples, IBM or for some of your clients on what needs they're trying to help solve with Gen AI? I think it it's instructional for listeners to really see how other businesses and marketers are, what problems they're trying to solve with gen AI.
Jay Badiani
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:06:03:04 - 00:06:38:10
Jay Badiani
So the priority areas for clients, you know, we've talked a little bit about the top line and you know how it's harder to grow the top line in a market that's slowing down a little bit. But they also come to us with their priorities around ESG and particularly sustainability, regardless of what sort of what's happening in the market around revenue and costs, they've made commitments to shareholders around achieving certain sustainability goals, whether it's a reduction in carbon emissions, whether they've made net zero goals, whether it's, you know, business model transformation.
00:06:38:12 - 00:07:04:01
Jay Badiani
And we absolutely you know, I talk about AI for business. We absolutely have AI embedded in our sustainability software as well. So two really good examples of that is new software company IBM acquired, called Envisi helps you see your entire carbon footprint across your organization. You know, when we implemented in a certain way for them, it helps them manage it, right?
00:07:04:01 - 00:07:22:12
Jay Badiani
So you can be a utility or an energy company or you can be a bank, you know, a lot of different kinds of institutions have different sustainability goals they're trying to achieve. And in this is fabulous software that lets them see the entire their entire footprint and you know, what's what they could change that might make a difference.
00:07:22:14 - 00:07:51:10
Jay Badiani
Another element of sustainability, we always say, is sustainability isn't separate from profitability actually being a sustainable organization helps you be more profitable as well. And we have artificial intelligence based app called Maximo, and Maximo is around asset management. So when you're infrastructure heavy company, again, you have a lot of real estate, you might have a lot of vehicles.
00:07:51:15 - 00:08:24:23
Jay Badiani
Maximo Helps you predict the maintenance required on those assets, helps you understand exactly where all the assets are, you know, where they are in their life cycles and helps you then manage how much maintenance is needed or schedule maintenance. And you know, a lot of our infrastructure heavy clients look at that as very helpful to them to know that we can maintain machines better, make sure that they're not breaking down, make sure that they're not using excessive energy and making sure we're optimizing the assets that we have.
00:08:25:01 - 00:08:54:15
Jay Badiani
It's another way for organizations to be more sustainable and another area where, you know, again, clients, regardless of what's going on in the economic marketplace, is cybersecurity. So we have a lot of clients coming to us with cybersecurity challenges. Cybersecurity has never been more important than it is today. And some of our surveys that we do show that the cost of a data breach has been never been higher to remediate these costs, even in Canada.
00:08:54:18 - 00:09:15:17
Jay Badiani
And I'm not even talking about the cost to the brand and the cost of the value of a brand. I'm just talking about the actual cost to get in and figure out where the data breach occurred and seal it up and prevent it from happening. And also in in some cases, companies have to pay ransoms, right, Ransoms to get out of a data breach.
00:09:15:20 - 00:09:46:15
Jay Badiani
So our security software again uses AI to monitor the entire threat landscape. The software is called Q radar and Q Radar has air inside, and it can do the work of many, many air analysts. So, you know, just almost impossible for a human or even a team of people to track the literally tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of threats that are coming into organizations in a day, into large organizations or into governments.
00:09:46:17 - 00:10:12:17
Jay Badiani
So curator software has AI to help organizations do that. Those are just two areas. In addition to, you know, we talked about revenue management, cost management, but sustainability and security as well, where where I can definitely help.
Alison Simpson
Those are two very important areas. And I like to call out that sustainability and profitability aren't separate. In fact, sustainability can positively impact profitability.
00:10:12:17 - 00:10:54:14
Alison Simpson
And when companies and individuals are under revenue pressure, remembering that and knowing that sustainability can actually be a driver or not a roadblock is super important. On the cybersecurity front, I've certainly seen an elevation of sophistication in the attacks. Are you seeing that? And you're also seeing the volume of a tax increase?
Jay Badiani
Yeah, yeah, there's no doubt. We do surveys chief information security officers every year and on top of that, our security software gathers this data and it tells us that the volume is I know exponential is an exaggeration, but it is massively increasing.
00:10:54:18 - 00:11:21:03
Jay Badiani
And the capabilities that cyber actors have are also increasing. They use A.I. as well. So, yeah, there's absolutely no doubt that you need to keep up with threats. You really need to use the latest technology to combat the latest threats, because you're exactly right with your question. The threats are increasing and the bad guys are getting more and more capabilities.
00:11:21:05 - 00:11:43:06
Alison Simpson
So now you are part of an organization, a very global business. So I'm very curious to hear what differences you see for B2B marketing and customers in Canada compared to the U.S. and other IBM markets.
Jay Badiani
IBM is in a really unique position because we have a while, we're a very large global organization. We're very large footprint in Canada.
00:11:43:08 - 00:12:02:07
Jay Badiani
So, you know, I don't know whether the there is a company like IBM because we do see that a lot of organizations that are in the business that we're in, in the technology business, they might be global and others have heard of them for sure, but they don't necessarily have the same footprint of people that we would have.
00:12:02:13 - 00:12:29:00
Jay Badiani
So IBM is a different organizations. We're not just a tech company. We're a consulting company around tech. And so when we do our marketing, you know, my group is very focused on specifically Canada. We're very specifically focused on what we call field marketing and field communications here. And so we're always looking at ways to have a unique client experience in Canada for our clients.
00:12:29:06 - 00:12:48:02
Jay Badiani
And that's sort of I feel like it's sort of unique. You know, we're not relying on lots of TV ads, for example, we're not relying on a lot of, you know, Internet marketing, for example. We do have this sort of really large concentration here of trying to be with clients in the field. And social media is a big part of that.
00:12:48:02 - 00:13:07:20
Jay Badiani
So when I say, you know, field marketing, field communications, social media is really a big part of that for us.
Alison Simpson
And Jay when you're talking to your global peers and your American peers about the business customers that you're working with in Canada, are you seeing any differences in who those customers are or what they're looking for compared to the other markets?
00:13:08:02 - 00:13:31:19
Jay Badiani
There's you know, Canada is interesting in that we have some very large banks in Canada where other countries might have more banks, but maybe not the same concentration. And so there's definitely a difference here where we spend a lot of time on, I'll call it financial services. And so not just banks, but insurance companies too, is a big concentration for us on financial services.
00:13:31:21 - 00:13:55:04
Jay Badiani
And as you know, Canada, a large federal government big vendor in the market on for technology as well as the ten provinces and the three territory. So we have a focus on government and our public sector. And you know, those are two major sectors for us. They would be important in any really developed economy. I think in Canada there's probably a bit more concentration on fast services and on government.
00:13:55:04 - 00:14:17:11
Jay Badiani
And then of course, you know, Canada, we're very successful in many other industries, but I think that you would see in other countries there might be a bit more around any fracturing or a bit more variety around some of the industries like tech or retailing that they would market to. So we definitely have those in Canada we all know who are grocery retailers are.
00:14:17:11 - 00:14:37:20
Jay Badiani
We know some of our vape shops are, but I think in other countries there's maybe a bit more local diversity of those though. You know, off the top, when I was talking about retail, I was talking about where do companies find more customers? And we actually did a survey that was just published last week on our earlier in the year on retail.
00:14:37:20 - 00:14:56:00
Jay Badiani
And we see that a lot of customers online aren't that happy with their bindery. They're actually, you know, our survey said less than 50% were satisfied with their online buyer journey, but 80% said they would be happy to have an air assistant guide them and so, you know what, we're and this was a global survey. This just was in Canada.
00:14:56:03 - 00:15:21:17
Jay Badiani
But I think that would apply here, right, where you go to certain websites and they're fabulous and you're getting awesome recommendations. And it's so easy to buy and you go to other ones and you're like, I can't find what I want. Or, you know, it's a little bit tricky finding that's a little bit tricky with, you know, all of the delivery information is a little tricky with, you know, getting stuff to your door, you know, not satisfied with getting help when you need help, getting help with returns, or do you need help with return.
00:15:21:19 - 00:15:56:09
Jay Badiani
And so we see there's a big opportunity there. And absolutely, we see, you know, retailers, regardless where they are looking for a guy to better serve their customers and, you know, in Canada and around the world.
Alison Simpson
So building on that, have you observed many regional differences in your Canadian marketing?
Jay Badiani
You know, there's not that many differences, but one reason thing that, you know, cause us to look at our marketing strategies is the new law in Quebec and just making sure it's been an opportunity for us to take a step back and look at our campaigns that we run in Quebec.
00:15:56:11 - 00:16:16:02
Jay Badiani
And I think I don't know if other organizations are like us, but we do, you know, maybe there was a sense that we were taking campaigns and just sort of translating them into French, and this has caused us to just take a step back and beyond taking an English campaign and translating it to French, really try and understand is it right for the Quebec market.
00:16:16:04 - 00:16:38:19
Jay Badiani
So, you know, it's still it's still new law. It's still something that we're we're working through to make sure we're, you know, complying with French language laws. But also we want to make sure because that market can be different in certain aspects. Are we you know, or is everything contextually right for the Quebec market, not just having, you know, campaigns land there in French?
00:16:38:21 - 00:16:58:20
Alison Simpson
And then, Jay, earlier, you talked about air certainly playing a pivotal role in enabling IBM's business. You're creating a lot of great solutions for your clients to enable them to do more as well. And all of our listeners are certainly looking at general AI and new tools as a way to improve and get better at what they're doing.
00:16:58:22 - 00:17:41:03
Alison Simpson
Can you share an exemple or to of what you've seen organizations do beyond IBM to use AI to help achieve their goals?
Jay Badiani
I can talk about a few industry examples, but one overarching thing that I really would like to say is IBM's large language models. If you use them, you're indemnified from IP risks and I think that's something that companies see is really interesting because when you just go to, you know, an Internet app, you never really know where the information coming from that this AI is based upon and where are the answers coming from, and are you really using a model that's free of intellectual property risk?
00:17:41:03 - 00:18:04:14
Jay Badiani
And you've we've seen a lot of that in the news. So so that's one thing that we're we're really proud about, is we can indemnify customers that use our models because we know what the models were trained on. I talked a little bit about energy and you remarked about sustainability and profitability go hand in hand. And we absolutely this is a this is just still a big growth industry in the world around the economy.
00:18:04:14 - 00:18:28:15
Unknown
And what's going to how do we move from a carbon economy to a more sustainable economy? And there's absolutely more that will happen around putting the information that that sort of spread around the world in many different peoples, you know, that they have into a place where we can make the right decisions. One thing that IBM's done is worked with NASA geospatial models, and we've made these available as open source models.
00:18:28:19 - 00:19:07:23
Jay Badiani
So anyone is working with Watson and can work with our NASA geospatial models. And what that help people do is marry weather data with satellite data of parts of the world and really help them understand what's happening with the climate there, what can be done to improve the climate there, what changes are happening over time, whether it's industrialization, agriculture, deforestation, you know, is this just gigantic amounts of not just text data, but images and other kinds of geospatial data are being put together.
00:19:08:00 - 00:19:30:20
Jay Badiani
I by our customers and using our models. The last thing I'd say is, is security. It was a great, you know, question you had earlier where I was talking about security and it's never ending like that. That struggle is never ending. We're continually working with them around how can we keep up with the bad guys? How can we make sure that again, brands are protected?
00:19:30:22 - 00:19:53:06
Jay Badiani
You when you come into a store or you come into someone's website, you know your data is safe and that just goes across all industries, governments to we've seen we've seen where health care institutions have been taken down in Canada because of cybercrime. And we've seen, you know, other organizations around the world, you know, have major consequences because of cyber crime.
00:19:53:06 - 00:20:25:10
Jay Badiani
So this is it's a never ending one for everyone that we work with. But we know we know A.I. will help us if you don't have A.I. working for you, the bad guys do. And you know, we won't be able to keep up with them.
Alison Simpson
So Jay you've certainly given us lots to think about in your comment around the bad guys have access to Jenn-Air too, so it's so important for all of us to stay on top of and ahead of where the bad guys are so that we can continue to protect our brands and have the trusting relationships that we need with our customers and all our stakeholders.
00:20:25:12 - 00:20:46:01
Alison Simpson
So to close off our conversation, I'd love to benefit from the fact that you have this incredible, very robust marketing career and have you share one piece of advice for our listeners. What would you recommend marketers do to be successful and grow their careers in the months and years ahead?
Jay Badiani
First of all, Alison, such a great opportunity for me to speak to you today, so thank you very much for that opportunity.
00:20:46:03 - 00:21:14:11
Jay Badiani
I really enjoyed the conversation in terms of a piece of advice is nothing that we do is an individual effort. Everything is a is a team effort. And I really think it's important for people to collaborate with each other to know how one part of the organization fits into the work that they do and then how their outcomes affect what another part of the organization might do or even customers would see.
00:21:14:11 - 00:21:36:12
Jay Badiani
You know, there's marketing and then there's PR and external communications and it's all connected. So I think as much as people can see that the role they play isn't in isolation, it's all connected to something else. And eventually a customer will see that in the market or an employee or a government organization will see something from your company in the market.
00:21:36:12 - 00:21:56:19
Jay Badiani
Then it just helps you put into context just how important the work that we do is. And when we all collaborate as a team, the work will of course be better. So just just about team and collaboration and, you know, knowing how your organization works is so important.
Alison Simpson
I think that's great advice for all of us at all levels for sure.
00:21:56:21 - 00:22:23:09
Alison Simpson
I also want to thank you for the overall conversation. You have such a great experience and I really appreciate you making time in your busy schedule to join us today and share your wealth of experience around B2B marketing, Some of the regional and global differences you're seeing in Canada compared to elsewhere in the world. And the important focus that IBM has around Jenn-Air and some of the powerful tools and solutions that you're creating.
00:22:23:11 - 00:22:47:16
Jay Badiani
Thank you very much, Alison. I really enjoyed our conversation.
Alison Simpson
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA TCA and sign up for your free CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.
EP10 - Tackling Ageism in Canadian Marketing
23 Jan 2024
00:27:14
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Anne Marie Wright, Partner and Co-Founder at YOUAREUNLTD, and Marc Cooper, CM, President at Junction59. In this lively conversation, they dive into the opportunities the aging population brings, the challenges they face and the organizations spearheading efforts to eradicate age discrimination in Canadian marketing.
00:00:23:03 - 00:00:47:18
Alison Simpson
CMAs latest research findings echo a concerning truth experience is undervalued within our industry, says we are striving for diversity, equity and inclusion. It is absolutely essential that we recognize that age should not be a barrier to hiring, to working with or promoting a deserving employee. Ageism is a significant issue in the marketing profession, and many believe it's tolerated more than other forms of discrimination.
00:00:48:14 - 00:01:09:15
Alison Simpson
The recent DEI survey that the CMA conducted revealed that on average, marketers consider employees over 48 years of age to be older workers. So not only is are ageism in our industry and profession, it also starts up what I would say is a relatively ignored age. So while many boomers are reporting that they feel disadvantaged because the marketing industry is so image conscious.
00:01:10:01 - 00:01:37:00
Alison Simpson
All of this highlights the biases that can hinder the growth of experienced talent. Joining me today, I am very happy to have two exceptional minds who are actively reshaping this narrative. Anne Marie Wright is co-founder of Duo Unlimited and Marc Cooper is president of Junction 59. Anne Marie and Marc have come together to co-found the third State, a strategic partnership whose goal is to help leaders of businesses identify and harness the potential of aging and the new longevity economy.
00:01:37:16 - 00:02:03:01
Alison Simpson
So together, we're going to explore the pervasive impact of ageism and ages views within our marketing and communications community. We're going to dive into how marketers and communicators are in a truly unique position to help address and combat these problems for the benefit of the workforce. Organizations that engage these workforces and the consumers that we serve. So it's an absolute pleasure to welcome Anne Marie and Marc to join me on the podcast today.
00:02:03:06 - 00:02:03:19
Alison Simpson
Welcome.
00:02:04:06 - 00:02:14:14
Marc Cooper
Thank you very much for having us here today. It's really wonderful to be able to share these thoughts with the CMA and with the marketing community in general.
00:02:14:18 - 00:02:15:23
Anne Marie Wright
We're thrilled to be here.
00:02:16:13 - 00:02:29:06
Alison Simpson
Now I'm going to kick things off with our first question. And Anne Marie, why don't I have you start this one? Can you tell us more about what you mean by the longevity economy and why you see it as so critically important to our conversation today?
00:02:30:16 - 00:03:05:09
Anne Marie Wright
So the most important thing to know this stage is the world is rapidly aging and this is a global phenomenon. What we're referring to here is a demographic trend characterized by an increasing proportion of people over 50, driven by factors such as declining birthrates and increasing life expectancy. This phenomena, which is in fact one of the biggest global trends of our time, has significant social and economic impact.
00:03:05:18 - 00:03:37:17
Anne Marie Wright
And this has been studied by people like the W.H.O., hundreds of think tanks, institutions, global governments, and more. The impacts of global aging populations are both positive and negative. And because this is such a big conversation, what Mark and I want to focus on with you today is to talk about the positive and economic side of this story, economic side of this phenomena, what it means to marketers and communicators.
00:03:39:05 - 00:04:15:00
Anne Marie Wright
So in essence, we need to think about a very large and influential cohort of people, and it's a very misunderstood and very misrepresented audience, which we're going to talk about a little bit later on in this podcast. Fundamentally, this cohort is redefining, disrupting, accepted definitions of what it is to age, what old age means. The influence of this audience has given rise to something called the longevity economy.
00:04:15:00 - 00:05:03:23
Anne Marie Wright
And this terminology is framed by Joseph Coughlin at MIT H Lab. A Fundamentally, what this means is that's referring to an economic impact and potential of the growing and increasingly influential older populations that we're seeing on the global stage. It encourages all businesses and industry to recognize and respond to the diverse needs and preferences of aging populations. This economy, in fact, is so large that it's been referred to as the third largest economy in the world behind only the U.S. and China is $8 trillion and growing in the U.S. Unfortunately, we don't have any Canadian data on this.
00:05:04:07 - 00:05:34:02
Anne Marie Wright
And throughout the world, industry, governments, social institutions have been waking up to this new economy and our team has seen rapid growth and investment in this space over the last five years. For example, in the venture capital community, it's one of the largest segments of investment and in the last three years. So with the size of this market, one might be asking why is there not been more attention paid to the market?
00:05:34:12 - 00:06:15:05
Anne Marie Wright
And the answer is rather straightforward. The challenge is that ageism and ages views. The topic of our podcast has actually been in the way of progress here. And there's a difference we want to make between the topic of ageism and an age just views the challenges that ages and ages views have been in the way of progress. Ageism, as Alison identified earlier in the podcast, is a systematic and often deeply ingrained form of discrimination and prejudice that involves stereotyping against certain individuals or groups based on their age.
00:06:15:15 - 00:06:44:13
Anne Marie Wright
I want to be really clear here that ageism actually impacts many age groups, but the global research, the global study today is very much focused on aging populations simply because this is such a large, impactful cohort of people ages, views that are a manifestation of ageism in general, refer to a specific perspective or beliefs held by an individual or group that reflects ageism.
00:06:45:04 - 00:07:10:17
Anne Marie Wright
For example, if we hold a belief that older adults are not technically inept or older adults are set in their ways, these are fundamentally our just views that we hold. What's important here for today's conversation is that marketers and communicators we think can strongly lead a new narrative and movement to dismantle ageism and ages views.
00:07:11:18 - 00:07:51:05
Alison Simpson
But thanks to Maria, that's a great help. And you call a really important point. From my perspective, a lot of very important points from my perspective. But as marketers, not only do we have a responsibility and an opportunity to encourage diversity and the wisdom that comes with years of experience in how we hire, we also have a real opportunity to influence popular culture or by the marketing we do, and making sure that it's as inclusive as it should be and representative of the real world and the number of Canadians we have that absolutely have so much more to contribute, even though they might be in some people's definition older.
00:07:51:23 - 00:08:12:03
Alison Simpson
So I think there's two really unique, important opportunities there for sure. So certainly the CMA survey highlighted ageism industry as a real issue. Can you introduce some new thinking around ageist views and dive a little deeper into how these issues show up in our industry and as importantly, what we can do to start reframing our thinking?
00:08:14:00 - 00:08:43:04
Marc Cooper
You know, let's start with ageism in the workplace. Our industry is notorious for valuing younger versus older employees. And your CMA survey results actually reinforce this fact. I think there was a stat in there that 44% of marketers believe that age based discrimination is tolerated in their workplaces more than any other form of discrimination. So like all forms of discrimination, not only is ageism harmful to a workforce and a work environment, but it's actually bad for business.
00:08:43:18 - 00:09:09:05
Marc Cooper
There are hundreds of studies that show that a diverse and multigenerational workforce is more productive and produces better business results. This value can only be achieved by creating inclusive environments. Our industry has the capacity to reframe and change the narrative. Our community, we've always been trendsetters and we have a really great opportunity to sink our teeth into this and make some impactful societal change.
00:09:09:12 - 00:09:40:03
Anne Marie Wright
You know this great example from the Publicis group? They have been labeled or certified as an age friendly employer by the age friendly Institute out of the U.S. and they've taken a lot of really great steps to add age into their DEI policy. Publicis has in surveys there are they're very intentional about the experiences of their older workforces.
00:09:40:09 - 00:10:04:14
Anne Marie Wright
They survey them to understand how integration, mentorship programs needs can be incorporated to ensure that they're retaining and hiring in shock older workforces. And then just a number of mechanisms that they've been experimenting with to do so. So the Publicis Group is actually a great example in our industry of somebody who has embraced age.
00:10:04:20 - 00:10:26:05
Alison Simpson
Anne MarieI love that example because while ageism is rampant across marketing communications and the CMA research, we found that in agents sees the definition of what it was to be older was shockingly young, like your late thirties. So the fact that publicists are seeing this as an opportunity and a differentiator and Mark, to your point, it's really good business.
00:10:26:05 - 00:10:32:00
Alison Simpson
So they in many ways they have a competitive advantage by being among the first to identify this.
00:10:33:02 - 00:11:04:08
Marc Cooper
You know, they absolutely do. And, you know, when we look at ageism and ages views in the marketing communications work that we do, numerous studies show that audiences are vastly underrepresented in our advertising communications. While the 25 to 39 year old cohort is highly overrepresented. Equally, older adults are vastly misrepresented and misunderstood, oftentimes made to appear incompetent, especially when it comes to technology, or perhaps they're referred to as being set in their ways.
00:11:05:06 - 00:11:27:10
Marc Cooper
To quote a Forbes magazine article, The World of Old for Teasing is a hellscape full of reverse mortgages, erectile dysfunction pills and bathtub that will kill you. I think we would all agree that the world of stock photos is also filled with stereotypical images of older people doing yoga or running on a beach. Now there are new image banks that exist.
00:11:28:13 - 00:11:57:05
Marc Cooper
Even Getty is getting into the space by improving the images. We just have to source the right images that represent the audience that we know. There's an excellent report from WPP Australia. I think it's called Secrets and Lies. Google it, download it. It's great. It's got some really insightful information in there and it lays out who this new age in consumer is and is not, and their spending patterns, which is maybe the most important piece.
00:11:57:22 - 00:12:22:01
Marc Cooper
In fact, it even calls out that 79% have moved on from brands that are no longer fulfilling or meaningful. So that's a huge opportunity. If you get it wrong and an even bigger opportunity if you get it right. A recent piece in The Atlantic shares research to say that people feel 20% younger than their real age. So understanding this is really important to marketers.
00:12:22:06 - 00:12:28:19
Marc Cooper
We have to make sure that we're talking to people in the way that they see themselves, not in the way that the rest of us see them.
00:12:29:02 - 00:12:59:15
Anne Marie Wright
Outside of the communications side of things. The desire or need to focus on product service solution development for aging population is a real opportunity too, because lots of times we think about products, services, solutions in terms of, you know, moms who are 25 to 45. There's a world of opportunity to develop products, services, solutions. We're going to talk about a few examples of them in a few minutes.
00:12:59:21 - 00:13:27:20
Anne Marie Wright
For people over 50. The cosmetics industry, the beauty industry for a long, long period of time ignored this part. We can give you dozens of examples of how people like Vogue magazine and certain cosmetic brands are developing and focusing on not just communicating to women who are older, but developing new products, services, solutions for this audience in very meaningful ways.
00:13:28:15 - 00:13:52:00
Alison Simpson
You know, market every year, sharing some hugely compelling stats. So an $8 trillion industry in the US alone and the fact that 79% of that market will move on from brands that no longer they see as fulfilling, meaningful, irrelevant, what more convincing reasons do we need to give brands and the marketing community to embrace this incredible business opportunity?
00:13:52:20 - 00:14:05:12
Alison Simpson
It's a bit mind boggling to me that with the size of the audience and their spending potential and their loyalty to brands that actually recognize them, it should be some low hanging fruit for businesses.
00:14:05:21 - 00:14:36:10
Anne Marie Wright
100%. Alison in as our jobs as marketers are to meet our unmet needs to identify and service consumers at all phases and stages of life and the opportunity to open up new worlds, new audiences, innovation pathways for people who are aging. The opportunities are tremendous.
00:14:36:10 - 00:14:44:12
Alison Simpson
Anne Marie, I know you we've talked before and there's a whole industry around age tech, so there certainly are some venture capitalists that are starting to see the offer.
00:14:44:13 - 00:15:17:00
Anne Marie Wright
Yes, 100%. And I'll give a one of my favorite examples is for many years, women's health has been misrepresented as well. So we're starting to see a collision between aging, healthy aging and women's health. So I feel like menopause, for example, which has been misrepresented, misunderstood by marketers, by industry in general, is one of these explosive fields. Femtech for example, in general, especially related to aging, is explosive.
00:15:18:07 - 00:15:41:01
Alison Simpson
So great examples. It's always helpful for me and our listeners to have our topics and certainly true and brought to life by understanding how some brands and organizations are really starting to embrace it and succeeding. So I'd love it if the two of you could share some case studies or examples of what organizations are doing that are targeting consumer aging.
00:15:41:01 - 00:15:42:15
Alison Simpson
Consumers successfully.
00:15:43:06 - 00:16:05:08
Marc Cooper
Well, you know, the good news is that there are some that are doing a great job. So we're not starting from scratch here. One that comes to mind for me is the dove Pro page campaign. They actually first launched those products with a campaign featuring women over 50 showcasing real beauty. Breaking that industry standard of only showing young models.
00:16:05:19 - 00:16:33:14
Marc Cooper
So this is a really great flip on the typical beauty product targeting aging women with anti-aging products. Instead, they're obviously showing pro age products. And their tagline for this campaign is Beauty has no age Limit. So if you get a chance, I'd look up the Dove Pro campaign. And another great example is Saatchi Saatchi. I think it's called Keep on Rolling for Toyota Venza.
00:16:34:03 - 00:16:54:04
Marc Cooper
The campaign cleverly subverted expectations by showing older adults leading rich, active lives, contrasting with their children's assumptions that they were leading dull lives. In fact, I think those children were at home on their computers, living their life through social media instead of living their life in the real in the real world.
00:16:54:06 - 00:17:26:21
Anne Marie Wright
One that I like from the financial service industry is from Merrill Lynch. And they created something called the Seven Life Priorities Program. And what they did was understanding this aging population and understanding that 80% of their business came from people over 65. They started to think about money management in very different ways and supported not by just the conversation on how to manage your money.
00:17:26:21 - 00:18:04:17
Anne Marie Wright
It's how to manage your life until you're going to be over 100. And thought today's five year old is projected to lift the 100th. So what Merrill Lynch has done is said, how do you help? How do we help our clients plan for the 100 year life versus how do we help our clients plan for retirement? And so they're reframing how those what's often times called the third or fourth stage of life, how Merrill Lynch can service their clients in in more than just financial ways.
00:18:05:10 - 00:18:30:22
Anne Marie Wright
The other one that I think we all love is we all know Phil Knight and what he did for Nike and what he did for running. And he's a lifelong runner and he is now, I think, into his sixties and he wanted to create a running shoe that kept him moving, even though his body was aging, even though his body was changing.
00:18:31:05 - 00:18:57:12
Anne Marie Wright
It would be easy to say, I'm creating a running shoe for somebody who saw that, that that's all what he said is, I want to create a running shoe that keeps me moving. And so it was really the shoe was created to accommodate for issues of aging bodies, but it was positioned as something to keep me moving as opposed to something that I need to do because I can't run anymore.
00:18:57:15 - 00:19:01:22
Anne Marie Wright
It was a very positive spin on the proposition.
00:19:02:11 - 00:19:11:11
Alison Simpson
Those are great examples. Now, the media also has a really important role to play on the story. You're starting to see the media start to address this issue as well.
00:19:12:08 - 00:20:01:17
Anne Marie Wright
Yeah, one of the ones I love is with Chris Hemsworth, the big Marvel actor who in his late thirties was identified to have the biomarkers of Alzheimer's. And he embraced that to say and produce a documentary series called Limitless, which is really exploring how he can continue to live better longer. There's a documentary on Netflix which really looks at something called Blue Zones, and these are countries where people have lived longer, better, and the factors that are play into what a longer, healthier life looks like.
00:20:01:18 - 00:20:22:20
Anne Marie Wright
That is a series on Netflix today. I guess the last one that I really like too is I don't know if everyone's seen the new supermodel Syria, where they've taken the four supermodels. I think we all know who they are and and really told the story of their lives and how they're thriving into their fifties, how they're going to continue to thrive into their 60.
00:20:22:20 - 00:20:33:10
Anne Marie Wright
So it's been a very, very positive story on how the recreation and the disruption of aging is being taught today.
00:20:34:01 - 00:20:57:20
Alison Simpson
Those are great examples, and I think it's Forbes that have done it. 50 top women over 50 and just celebrating all of the success and continued ways that people of all ages are contributing. But instead of recognizing only at the young scale the thirties under thirties in the forties, under forties, to actually see 50 over 50, 60 to 60 over 60 like that feels like we're heading in the right direction for sure.
00:20:59:14 - 00:21:18:12
Alison Simpson
So there is no doubt from the insights and the data that both of you are shared with us that there is a tremendous opportunity by addressing aging in our community. So I want to make this super actionable for our listeners. What can marketers and communicators do to start to make a real difference today?
00:21:20:00 - 00:21:54:21
Anne Marie Wright
I think I want to separate Alison, how they can make a difference in their workplace, which I'm going to make a brief comment around and then Mark will talk about how in their work they can make a difference. We're very passionate about the subject of ageism because marketers in fact have the power to make change. It's a very unique form of discrimination because everyone, regardless of their race, age or gender, sexual orientation, will go through the process of aging.
00:21:55:15 - 00:22:29:10
Anne Marie Wright
It's the most universal and unavoidable aspect of the human experience. So if we acknowledge that ageism exists and we acknowledge that we're all going to face it at one stage or another. The more that we can understand and change that by simply creating awareness of it in our day to day and in our workplaces, the more we can eliminate this last form of discrimination, that means including age in DEI policies.
00:22:30:02 - 00:23:02:21
Anne Marie Wright
We don't have the numbers in Canada, but we know that over 80% of Global DEI policies do not include age. It's a really simple thing to do. Number two, look at retaining older workers in the workforce and learning about the benefits of multigenerational workforces. There's tons written about the benefits, the higher return on investment, the higher productivity levels of multigenerational workforces versus one dimensional workforce sources.
00:23:03:12 - 00:23:07:08
Anne Marie Wright
So those resist those with the things I think we can all focus on quite readily.
00:23:08:14 - 00:23:33:20
Marc Cooper
And of course, in the work that we actually do, we can expand our mindset around having multiple segments for our products and services or solutions. Ask ourselves how our brand can promote our brand proposition can be stretch to embrace new audiences. You know, this is what Dove did with their pro age campaign and with the products that they developed and we can understand who we're talking to.
00:23:34:04 - 00:24:11:21
Marc Cooper
I think knowing that 50 plus is not a single audience, you know, that's how we've traditionally grouped this demographic together. But 50 doesn't equal 60, which doesn't equal 70. And getting our heads around that and then speaking to those audiences appropriately is a good starting point. And then authentically represent older audiences in the communications, not based on those stereotypes and it's a great start if we build those multi-generational workforces as marketers and advertisers, because we then see these different perspectives from our colleagues.
00:24:12:02 - 00:24:25:10
Marc Cooper
So when we go to put them into the communications that we're building and we're putting out there, we're not playing to the stereotypes anymore. We're playing to the people we know. We're playing to the environment that we're working in. So I think they are actually quite closely tied together.
00:24:26:21 - 00:24:43:05
Alison Simpson
Really terrific advice. And you both have shared some really valuable insights tonight. So before I let you get on with your day, I'd love to close off the discussion by having each of you share one last piece of advice for our listeners and what they can do to help address the ageism issue. What's the first thing you would have them talk?
00:24:44:17 - 00:25:18:10
Anne Marie Wright
One thing is think stage, not age. When you remove the barriers of age, just view. Demographics mean less than her mindset and what people's needs are. A 70 year old can be just as vibrant as a 40 year old. And if we're building brands around true needs and true mindsets and true behaviors, I think we open a world to think differently about what our opportunities are.
00:25:19:09 - 00:25:33:22
Alison Simpson
I think that's such a great example. And I look at my own personal self, like in my twenties, I was in a lot, a lot worse shape than I am in my fifties. So ages very arbitrary in so many ways. Well, Mark, we'll let you close things off.
00:25:35:18 - 00:26:04:19
Marc Cooper
So I think you could ask us about our Ageless Universe initiative. It's something that third state recently launched and we really can't do what we were trying to do without the support from our industry. This is a multi-phased campaign with the goal of dismantling ageism in the workforce and in the work we do. So you can learn more at ageless University HCA and sign our pledge, which you can also just reach out to us, ask us questions.
00:26:05:10 - 00:26:32:09
Marc Cooper
The two of us are more than happy to talk about what this industry can do. We know that this industry has such a capacity to make change on this really important issue, perhaps one of the last areas of discrimination. And if we can try to beat this together as an industry, we're going to be in really great shape in the work that we're doing and in the way we do work going forward.
00:26:32:18 - 00:26:48:10
Alison Simpson
A great note to end on Marc and Ann Marie, thank you so much for all of the valuable insights that you share today and for helping bring more awareness to this really important issue in the marketing community. I'm very much looking forward to how we can advance this in the months and years ahead.
00:26:49:04 - 00:26:54:03
Anne Marie Wright
Thank you so much for having us. Alison, it's been a real pleasure.
00:26:57:07 - 00:27:11:20
Announcer
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EP9 - 2024 Unveiled: CMA's Future-Proofing Plans with Kerri Dawson
09 Jan 2024
00:22:30
In the first episode of 2024, Alison Simpson, CEO of The CMA, welcomes Kerri Dawson, the Chair of the CMA's Board of Directors, to discuss her journey and the board's role while highlighting some of the CMA's recent achievements. Kerri previews The CMA's focus areas for the year, including continuing to future-proof the profession, advocacy, DEI and community building.
00:00:02:10 - 00:00:24:04
Announcer
Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMAs CEO Allison Simpson.
00:00:24:04 - 00:00:45:23
Alison Simpson
Happy New Year and welcome to our very first episode of CMA Connect for 2024. I hope everyone had an amazing holiday. We have a very exciting and busy year ahead of the CMA and I'm absolutely thrilled to have Kerri Dawson, the chair of CMA's Board of Directors, join us today to discuss the association. Kerri has been very active with the CMA for many years and a member of our board since 2018.
00:00:46:14 - 00:01:10:19
Alison Simpson
Before she stepped into the chair role in 2022, Kerri served as the vice chair and she's also chaired our finance and Audit Human Resources and Nomination and governance committees. Kerri is also the head of digital channels and commercialization for wealth and personal baking at HSBC Bank, Canada, and very much on the forefront of digital marketing, and that Kerri's team was recently awarded to global retail, banking, Digital and Innovation awards.
00:01:11:04 - 00:01:13:12
Alison Simpson
So welcome, Kerri, It's a thrill to have you here today.
00:01:13:14 - 00:01:24:18
Kerri Dawson
Well, thank you, Alison, and happy New Year to you as well. And thank you for inviting me. I'm really thrilled to be here and to be the first conversation of 2024 for CMA Connect. Thank you.
00:01:25:15 - 00:01:32:08
Alison Simpson
I can't imagine a better way to kick off the year, so thank you too. Now, I want to start by asking what attracted you to join the CMA board?
00:01:33:00 - 00:01:55:03
Kerri Dawson
So, Alison, as you mentioned, I joined the CMA Board in December of 2018, and it was Steve Mast who at the time he was the chair of the Nominating and Governance Committee, and he'd come to see me to ask if I might be interested in joining the board. Now, Steve later became board chair, of course, and I was really fortunate to work with him as his vice chair.
00:01:55:07 - 00:02:24:21
Kerri Dawson
Prior to becoming chair myself at the time when I joined the board, I'd been involved with the CMA for many years. I'd been a CMA awards judge and a senior judge. I'd set on what was at the time called the Digital Marketing Council, now known as the MarTech Council. I'd participated in strategy, research and the like, and in my career I'd been mentored by a past CMA board chair and a CMA Lifetime Achievement Award winner.
00:02:25:04 - 00:02:51:19
Kerri Dawson
Her name is Nancy Cardinal, a name some listeners might recognize. So I was very familiar with the CMA and had a strong connection to the work that the CMA does, and I believed that it would be an exciting challenge to advise and guide the CMA's vision and strategies as it works on behalf of the marketing community and to do that as a board director, and that this would be a way for me to contribute to that community.
00:02:51:19 - 00:02:55:14
Kerri Dawson
And that's certainly been true. And it's been it's been very rewarding.
00:02:57:08 - 00:03:12:15
Alison Simpson
Well, I definitely owe both Steve and Nancy a great big thank you for getting you involved. And you've been such an outstanding partner to me, certainly, as I've onboarded to the CMA in the way that you're advocating on behalf of our profession is commendable and very much appreciated.
00:03:12:16 - 00:03:13:04
Kerri Dawson
Thank you.
00:03:14:12 - 00:03:18:00
Alison Simpson
So I'd love you to share a bit about how the board and the CMA staff work together.
00:03:18:17 - 00:03:56:08
Kerri Dawson
Yeah. So generally speaking, the role of the board is to provide strategic advice and guidance and to establish governance and to exercise oversight for the management of a company or an organization. And as chair of the CMA, I help to ensure that this distinction between what the board does vis a vis what CMA management does is clear. So you'll sometimes hear that guidance to board directors described as noses in and fingers out, leaving the management to do its job and to operate the business or the organization.
00:03:56:08 - 00:04:23:14
Kerri Dawson
And, you know, I think our board does a really good job adhering to this distinction. The board is is really interested in ensuring that the CMA remains, as the accountants would say, a going concern and remains financially stable. And, you know, I can say that the board has absolutely no concerns here that the financial position of the CMA is healthy and the controls in place to ensure that position continues that way are very strong.
00:04:23:14 - 00:04:52:15
Kerri Dawson
So and from a strategic standpoint, the board participated in a really excellent session, which you led, Alison, earlier in the year to refine and make clear the CMA's vision and value proposition. And another key area that the board thinks about is leadership and succession for the CMA and for the board itself. And on that front, I can say that the board is extremely pleased with the leadership at the CMA.
00:04:53:05 - 00:05:17:11
Kerri Dawson
And if you'll allow me, I'd like to offer a happy anniversary to Alison. I think the Board was really pleased to have you join the CMA a year ago in December of 2022, and we've just been thrilled to have you at the helm and we've been equally pleased with the way you've you've built your leadership team and with your approach to achieving the CMA, its vision and strategies.
00:05:18:03 - 00:05:37:05
Kerri Dawson
So we're just just thrilled about that. A final point I'll make, though, about ways of working. Is that a strong working relationship between the CEO and the Chair Award is really essential for success and, you know, unfortunate that this has also been true. It's just been a delight to work with you, Alison, over the past year.
00:05:37:05 - 00:05:42:03
Alison Simpson
And I'm glad you're not on video because you're making me blush. That's a lot of it, really.
00:05:42:18 - 00:05:45:12
Kerri Dawson
I know it's a little surprising there.
00:05:45:12 - 00:06:04:17
Alison Simpson
But it's been I mean, the time has flown by. It's been a great year. And the level of partnership that you've brought and the patience as I'm getting fully up to speed and then the really good, important, healthy debate that you and I have and that we have aboard is so central to making the CMA and the profession stronger.
00:06:04:17 - 00:06:16:01
Alison Simpson
So it's absolute delight and I'm looking forward to 2024. Yeah, me too. Now, from the board's perspective, how do you think the CMA has helped advance the marketing profession in 2023?
00:06:17:04 - 00:06:40:20
Kerri Dawson
Yeah, well, you know, that's a great question. I can say with much enthusiasm that the CMA is a team that works really hard to benefit the marketing community in Canada. I mean, truly the CMA is made up of people who are passionate in their support of the community and and Alison, you have your team really well organized to deliver so much benefit on behalf of marketers in Canada.
00:06:41:17 - 00:07:01:11
Kerri Dawson
And, you know, in speaking directly to how the CMA has advanced the profession there, there are really four key strategies that I think demonstrate the most benefit. And the first is the work that the CMA does to futureproof the marketing profession. You know, this is a key priority and it's one that the CMA is making strong progress on.
00:07:02:06 - 00:07:29:21
Kerri Dawson
The CMA knows that through its research that 97% of members and marketers rate it. The future of marketing as their top thought leadership topic. This is followed really closely by emerging trends and how technological advancements are impacting marketing. And there's no bigger trend right now than I, and the board is really pleased that the CMA has introduced its first Gen AI training for members and marketing.
00:07:30:00 - 00:07:53:18
Kerri Dawson
That happened last April, and since then CMA has added three more Gen AI courses and we know that you're going to be expanding on this in Q1 of 20 and this year we need 24 with an on demand series. And it's also great that the CMA has established the AI Working Group rating thought leadership and guidance for four members.
00:07:53:18 - 00:08:16:06
Kerri Dawson
The CMA is councils and committees are also a really great source for thought leadership that's across a wide range of topics the customer experience and creativity and brand and insights, just to name a few. There are over 300 senior members participating in councils and committees and they're contributing to important discussions and debates about the future of the marketing profession.
00:08:17:11 - 00:08:47:13
Kerri Dawson
The CMA also nurtures the next generation of marketing talent with CMA. Next, the program that that bridges the gap between post-secondary schooling and a successful marketing career. And we're really thrilled that the virtual career nights that you ran last year attracted over 600 students from across Canada. It's fantastic. And of course, this podcast is another way that the CMA is is really helping to futureproof members and marketers.
00:08:48:18 - 00:09:12:20
Kerri Dawson
So secondly, mean as the voice of marketing in Canada, the CMA's advocacy work on behalf of the profession is really a source of pride. You know, those efforts cover a broad spectrum of key topics, but privacy has really been at the forefront and the CMA is working hard to ensure any new privacy laws will enable innovation while protecting Canadians privacy.
00:09:13:08 - 00:09:35:23
Kerri Dawson
In fact, the CMA is the only marketing association in Canada that was invited to appear as a witness in front of the federal parliamentary committee studying privacy law reform. That's that's really amazing. And thank you for including me in the group of board directors and members of the CMA's Privacy and Data Committee who recently met with that privacy commissioner.
00:09:36:08 - 00:09:59:16
Kerri Dawson
You know, we met to discuss some of the issues that are important to marketers related to privacy and data. And I was able to observe firsthand how important the relationship is between the CMA and the commissioner's office and to see how effectively the CMA conveys its position on behalf of its members. Really, really great work. Thirdly, I'm going to talk a bit about diversity, equity and inclusion.
00:09:59:16 - 00:10:37:22
Kerri Dawson
It continues to be a top priority for the CMA. The CMA completed its third annual study in 2023 and the board has been made aware of a discussion guide that's been created. We know that guide is going to be especially useful to help spark conversations about creating more diverse, equitable and inclusive workplaces. And the CMA holds itself to account across a number of diversity dimensions, including gender and ethnicity and diverse representation within councils and committees, and even a geographic dimension to ensure appropriate representation right across Canada, not just here in Toronto.
00:10:38:18 - 00:11:05:23
Kerri Dawson
And as a chair, I asked to see a progress against the Commitments, and I'm really pleased to see that the commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion remains embedded in decision making at the CMA. And then finally, I'll comment that a CMA knows how to have a little fun, a lot of fun, and the CMA actively builds community and brings marketing professionals together through the many different events it hosts.
00:11:06:08 - 00:11:40:09
Kerri Dawson
Those events focus on priority topics for the profession, and they're offered virtually and in person, often for free as part of the corporate membership. The board is really proud of the inaugural CMA future proof event in 2023. It was a huge success and it's one we know you will be building on for 2024. And of course you ended 2023 with the CMA Awards and it was really wonderful to celebrate the exceptional creativity of our profession alongside 850 marketers and agencies.
00:11:40:09 - 00:11:49:09
Kerri Dawson
It was it was wonderful. And so all of these strategies, Alison, have gone a long way to advance the profession. Congratulations on all of that.
00:11:49:09 - 00:12:10:12
Alison Simpson
It's very much that a very, very collaborative effort, certainly with our staff, certainly with the board and with the blessing we have and the number of members we have that are actively volunteering and engaged with the CMA. They're such an important part of our ability to deliver thought leadership, and they're also a very important part of our ability to come together and celebrate the profession and have a lot of fun.
00:12:10:17 - 00:12:11:11
Kerri Dawson
Absolutely.
00:12:12:08 - 00:12:22:01
Alison Simpson
The gala was a great way to end 2023 and then, yes, as the board chair, what accomplishments of the CMA and board are you the most proud of?
00:12:22:22 - 00:12:51:02
Kerri Dawson
So I said a few goals when I became board chair and in May of 2022. And the first was to ensure that the CMA has the right leadership and organization in place to guarantee success moving forward. And that's because a key responsibility for a board of directors is succession in leadership for the organization they serve. But, you know, active recruiting for top leadership is not something that all boards get to do very often.
00:12:51:02 - 00:13:21:02
Kerri Dawson
And and we did. And what's especially great is that the outcome has been amazing for the organization. Secondly, I wanted to ensure that the CMA strategy was fit for purpose and and connected to that, I wanted to ensure that a solid 3 to 5 year strategy would be backed by by a five year financial plan, and that strategies in place and the financial plan is is in the works and will be reviewed by the board, the board's finance and audit committee.
00:13:21:19 - 00:13:48:03
Kerri Dawson
And then finally, you know, I wanted to champion a mechanism that would give the board certainty and understanding the CMA's impact on its members, on its membership. So, you know, kind of think a Net promoter score or a regular customer satisfaction survey and that so that the CMA can can tangibly be held to account by the board for effectively serving the needs of the marketing community.
00:13:48:03 - 00:14:21:19
Kerri Dawson
And I'm, I'm really thrilled, Alison, that that's also underway. So as a board working together with you and your leadership team, we've made fantastic progress on, on again towards all of those goals. But I'm most proud as I get ready to hand over the chair seat in May of this year that that you were in place as president and CEO and well supported by a well conceived vision and strategy and with clarity about where the CMA is headed, and that the success that's been achieved by the CMA to date.
00:14:21:19 - 00:14:25:02
Kerri Dawson
Well, we'll continue.
00:14:25:02 - 00:14:41:22
Alison Simpson
Thank you very much. I would not be here without you. And part of a big part of what made the opportunity so appealing was to have you as a chair and have such a strong board, so engaged in helping build the vision for the CMA and really in giving back and helping futureproof our profession.
00:14:42:02 - 00:14:50:15
Kerri Dawson
Well, thank you. That's really kind and it's certainly my pleasure. And I know that's true for for the other directors as well. They, they enjoy the work they do for the CMA. Thank you.
00:14:51:10 - 00:15:10:14
Alison Simpson
And some days I have to remind myself it's volunteer is a you're all in full time jobs, too. So the degree to which you're giving back and committed is really inspiring. Thanks. Now, as we're in the second week of 2024, what do you see as the key focus areas for the year ahead? What what are you most excited about?
00:15:10:17 - 00:15:11:06
Alison Simpson
Yeah.
00:15:11:12 - 00:15:41:16
Kerri Dawson
Yeah. You know, I think yeah, there's a lot to be excited about. I think I think the focus for 2024 continues to be a lot of the same, you know, future proofing the profession, advocacy D and AI and, and community building and really continuing to build on the momentum of 2023. You know the CMA's research shows that the most valued benefit that is offered to members is the opportunity to be part of a community and to learn from other marketers and collaborate and network.
00:15:41:16 - 00:16:08:11
Kerri Dawson
And, and the board is excited that the CMA will be introducing a new way for members to do that with the launch of CMA forward. That's going to be a free online forum for CMA members to come together to debate hot topics, to share thought leadership, and to meet other marketers from right across Canada. And it will include career stage communities in a future focused forum too.
00:16:09:04 - 00:16:38:16
Kerri Dawson
And we're also thrilled that the CMA will be offering even more free, high quality events for members during the year. The research also showed that members want to understand Canadian consumers better, that that's also a really important topic for them, especially as as we're all navigating through these challenging times. So we're excited that the CMA is expanding. Thought leadership in this area and working on an event focused on how Canadian consumers are evolving.
00:16:39:08 - 00:17:08:07
Kerri Dawson
And in May, the CMA is introducing a marketing week, kicking off with a live podcast featuring CMA Marketers of the Year and Lifetime Achievement and Achievement in Marketing Award winners who will be discussing that? The future of marketing and that's a Can't Miss event that's on super exciting CMA Future Proof will be the signature event for the week, and there'll be a CMA Training Day where members can take one of the CMA's air courses for free.
00:17:08:07 - 00:17:42:20
Kerri Dawson
That's really, really wonderful. And Alison, you've brought to the board an evolution of the program for professional development at the CMA. We're thrilled that the CMA is offering an on demand generative AI training series starting in February. It's going to be offered in 30 minute modules, and that's a really smart evolution that recognizes how people are learning these days, and it provides really great training on a topic that is so important for marketers navigating A.I. these days.
00:17:42:20 - 00:18:12:02
Kerri Dawson
So we're also really pleased that you're evolving the Chartered Marketer program. You know, previously marketers can obtain their CMA designation by completing the full CRM course based path or apply for the CRM executive Advanced Standing. If they had more than 15 years experience and moving forward, there is a new advanced standing pathway making completing that designation more relevant to marketers across a wide range of career stages.
00:18:12:10 - 00:18:38:03
Kerri Dawson
So we're excited about that opportunity. And as the voice of marketing in Canada, the CMA is also focused on supporting marketers in transition. So newcomers with marketing experience and encouraging and helping to build the next generation of marketing talent and the CMA is launching a robust upskilling and training initiative to help grow a new and diverse group of marketers.
00:18:38:18 - 00:18:52:04
Kerri Dawson
So that's the focus really across future proofing and advocacy, DIY and community. It's a lot, it's well-planned, it's exciting. It's going to be a great year ahead and.
00:18:53:15 - 00:19:04:12
Alison Simpson
I'm very much looking forward to it. Now, I don't want to let you go without taking advantage of your incredible expertise to have you share one piece of advice with our listeners.
00:19:05:11 - 00:19:32:08
Kerri Dawson
Now, you know, I love the New Year. I really enjoy the opportunity to reflect back on the previous year and look forward to all that that is to come. One of the of the skills of a board director when in the required skills, is that they be able to, as we say, see around corners and anticipate issues. And that's certainly true when it comes to the potential for big changes that that I will bring to the marketing profession.
00:19:32:13 - 00:20:03:23
Kerri Dawson
So I'm looking forward to tracking along with what's evolving in that space. You know, all the potential for use, of course, but also the evolving set of guidelines that are emerging as we marketers and as society generally learn how to use, you know, this new technology for for good, for the good of humanity. And you know, something I've learned from working with really creative people over the years is that a good solid sandbox makes outcomes stronger.
00:20:03:23 - 00:20:26:00
Kerri Dawson
And I think that's true as we navigate this new world of AI with the right guidelines and governance, we can really achieve the right outcomes. So now the practical side of me knows that we are all still navigating through a tough economy and the impacts of inflation and high interest rates are going to be with us for a while longer.
00:20:26:04 - 00:20:57:18
Kerri Dawson
We're heading into a tough year, but I know and you know that the marketing community in Canada is amazing at finding creative solutions for challenges that face them and the businesses in the companies that they help to lead. So my advice is that as a community, let's continue to come together to learn from one another, to share our experience, to understand more deeply the issues that matter to marketers and to celebrate our achievements.
00:20:57:18 - 00:21:08:11
Kerri Dawson
You know, that's important too. So let's continue to stick together as a community in 2024. We've got a really exciting year ahead.
00:21:08:11 - 00:21:24:06
Alison Simpson
Outstanding advice. It's also a great reminder that as busy as we all are, as some of the challenges that we're all collectively managing through, all the more reason to come together and also to celebrate. There was no doubt we as a profession can accomplish a great deal.
00:21:24:12 - 00:21:28:15
Kerri Dawson
Yeah, that's the fun part. That's all about the fun.
00:21:28:15 - 00:21:49:03
Alison Simpson
Well, Kerry, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. Especially early in the new year. I know it's a busy year. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us on the podcast today. Share a bit about the CMA. And I really also want to thank you for being such an active advocate and volunteer with the CMA for such a long period of time.
00:21:49:10 - 00:21:53:18
Alison Simpson
And as board chair, you've had such a significant impact on Thrilled to have been part of it.
00:21:54:01 - 00:22:11:16
Kerri Dawson
Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Alison. And on behalf of the board, a big a big, big thank you to you and your incredible CMA team for all that you do to support marketers in Canada. You know, I'm really excited about what's on the horizon and I look forward to continuing to work with you in 2024 and be great.
00:22:13:06 - 00:22:26:03
Announcer
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EP8 - The Real Superpower of Marketers with Susan O'Brien
12 Dec 2023
00:25:40
Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, and Susan O'Brien, Chief Brand and Customer Officer at Canadian Tire Corporation (CTC), discuss what it takes to understand your customers, staying true to your brand promises and innovative strategies to positively impact Canadians.
00:00:02:10 - 00:00:21:00
Announcer
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMAs CEO Allison Simpson.
00:00:22:03 - 00:00:51:11
Alison Simpson
Today we're joined by Susan O'Brien, who's a chief brand and customer officer at Canadian Tire. Susan oversees a very broad mandate, and this responsible for the brand and marketing for the organization's full family of 13 banners includes everything from SportChek, party city, Helly Hansen, Marks and Canadian Tire Financial, to name a few. So she's very well suited to chat about what it takes to market a complex portfolio through a challenging economy, while also ensuring that she's staying true to the brand and the promises that are made.
00:00:52:10 - 00:01:14:17
Alison Simpson
Now, I've long believed that a real superpower of marketers is our deep understanding of customers and how they can help businesses innovate and differentiate from a marketing perspective, but also across all aspects of the business. I know from our earlier conversations that Susan agrees and is a really terrific example of bringing this super power to life. So thanks so much for joining us on CMA Connect today, Susan.
00:01:14:18 - 00:01:16:09
Alison Simpson
I'm looking forward to a great conversation.
00:01:17:10 - 00:01:20:16
Susan O'Brien
Alison, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here today.
00:01:20:22 - 00:01:33:02
Alison Simpson
Susan, we're going to kick things off knowing that you manage one of the largest brand portfolios in Canada. I would love to hear how you're building business and maintaining strong brands across your portfolio of banners, especially in the face of global competition.
00:01:33:13 - 00:02:07:14
Susan O'Brien
Such an important question, I would say, for all marketers, but in particular, right now for retail marketers, because of the seismic shift that has happened over the last several years in terms of the retail landscape with respect to the types of competition, we're up against being very significantly larger global in scale companies like Amazon, Walmart, Costco, Home Depot, but also there's been such a shift over the last number of years in what I would call the new tools available to marketers to build strong and enduring brands.
00:02:07:14 - 00:02:43:16
Susan O'Brien
So I think I point that out because those who know me know I talk a lot about the shifting role of marketers, that normalization and this idea that because of this shift in the landscape and because of the opportunities provided to us by new tools like loyalty, first party data, deep customer analytics, even emerging technologies like AI, these things are all allowing the customer to be more at the center of the conversation, and not just in marketing, but across all of the decision making in the company.
00:02:43:18 - 00:03:06:02
Susan O'Brien
So I'd point all those things out because I think the question of how do you build brands today as a marketer has shifted so much, and I'm very pleased to say marketers now for the most part have been much bigger role at the executive table. Their ability to influence decision making by using these new tools that help us better understand the customer.
00:03:06:10 - 00:03:32:02
Susan O'Brien
It's real and it's happening and in particular is happening at Inspire. And so I would say given the portfolio of brands we have, you know, there's a million things we're doing to make sure those brands are strong and relevant. But if I could sort of boil it down to sort of what I think is fundamental, if you're a marketer today, will sort of ask yourself some of these questions around, does it start with your strategy?
00:03:32:09 - 00:03:58:03
Susan O'Brien
Does you know the notion of the importance of brand and the importance of customer really reside in your strategy at the top of the house, is your CEO endorsing it? Do you feel like you have partners across the business in doing so? Because it's the domain of marketers to have lots of understanding of the customer, but it has to work in concert with folks who are running the businesses and making decisions every day.
00:03:58:11 - 00:04:23:08
Susan O'Brien
So Canadian Tire, I am happy to report we have a strategy called Better Connected. It was launched two and a half, three years ago and it is, as the name implies, all about connections. And there's sort of three key areas of connections that might plays a pretty integral role in and shifting role of marketers. And how does that translate into building stronger brand?
00:04:23:08 - 00:04:51:09
Susan O'Brien
So the first area I think is really important, which is creating stronger emotional connections as a relatively large domestic player. But relative to our competition, small from a global perspective, we can't do our competition on their core differentiators. We have to focus on what differentiates us and for us. Canadian Tire as part of our better connected strategy. That's about emotional connection.
00:04:51:15 - 00:05:19:12
Susan O'Brien
That is about this relationship we have with mediums that is unique and that allows us to really build what I would call longer term like, like time loyalty. I have a team that spends a lot of time on that. These so everything from the traditional marketing aspects around truly end to end full funnel marketing campaigns for all our various areas, but also things like communications and how does that play a role in creating brand moments that connect with medium?
00:05:19:20 - 00:05:42:21
Susan O'Brien
That's one big area. The second area of connection in our better connected strategy is about customer connections, like literally down to using our loyalty program. It's my portfolio, the unbelievable first party data we get from that and turning that into real insights that allow us to do better marketing and to stay really connected in a way more relevant for our customers.
00:05:42:21 - 00:06:06:15
Susan O'Brien
Right message, right time, right place. And then the third area of connection is within the notion of creating an omnichannel, seamless omni channel experience. Physical meets digital in a way that lets a customer shop when how they want. And I have a team that oversees sort of those assets website and mobile app. And then how does that connect what happens in-store.
00:06:06:15 - 00:06:14:18
Susan O'Brien
So all of those things are what we're focused on as a company to stay super relevant and more connected to our customer.
00:06:14:18 - 00:06:41:05
Alison Simpson
That's such great perspective. Thanks, Susan. I want to go back to one of the things you touched on as far as the marketer toolkit has absolutely expanded and in that expansion, giving us some really powerful tools to support our colleagues at the C-suite and have increased credibility at the C-suite. You also very rightly called out that having CEOs operate around customer centricity is mission critical, and not every organization has a CEO that embraces that.
00:06:41:06 - 00:06:54:05
Alison Simpson
So for those that are listening, that might not have that benefit, is there any advice you can offer as far as leveraging the tools and helping our executive colleagues understand the importance of customer centricity?
00:06:54:21 - 00:07:21:16
Susan O'Brien
Yeah, we are blessed to have a CEO who genuinely believes that. I just said point out that because Canadian Tire has been for 100 years very local in the way we go to market, we have a dealer model, the dealers are in their communities. We are sought based on that community. We have local, you know, activations around charitable causes, etc. and community really show strong community.
00:07:22:01 - 00:07:39:15
Susan O'Brien
It is second nature to us and so we're starting from a place of strength. So that's like I just you need to bring that out. But with that said, when you consider as a marketer that your job is really to be that customer at the table, like that's how I think of my job and that can be that was daunting.
00:07:39:15 - 00:08:00:05
Susan O'Brien
I mean, I think back to early parts of my career, it's daunting because sometimes there's a temptation go, Yeah, yeah, we know the customer stuff. The truth is, you know, the economics would suggest we should do that or this the other thing. What's different now is we have that we have data that can truly enable that sort of credibility.
00:08:00:05 - 00:08:38:21
Susan O'Brien
So when you have a tool kit that includes significant first party data, for example, not just from our loyalty program, but we also have the credit card that is not a store card, credit card that people use outside. There's facts and data that you can bring to the table with sort of certainty and credibility when you have programs in place like Net Promoter Score, which you do across every aspect of our customer experience, there is a fact in there that, you know, at this point there is friction in the customers telling us and by the way, we can see that it's translating into news in sales or lack of conversion or whatever that might be.
00:08:38:21 - 00:09:06:21
Susan O'Brien
So these tools are just giving us much more credibility to be able to have those conversations. The only other thing I'll just sort of point out here is in it's not just that you've got customer data now there's new tools to enable the use of that customer data. So, you know, you think about things like the ability to know a customer better and to be able to offer them something that they need that is relevant at a certain point of time.
00:09:07:04 - 00:09:24:03
Susan O'Brien
That information's not just valuable to marketers, it's valuable to store operations. It's valuable to our merchants who plan assortments based on what customers want. So there's just so many more tools available to marketers that voice the tool.
00:09:24:23 - 00:09:41:03
Alison Simpson
That's great. Thanks, Susan. Now, my next question is a three parter and definitely a topic that I know our listeners are super interested in. So given the current economic climate, growing interest rates, financial struggles for many Canadians, how can businesses and marketers effectively connect with consumers?
00:09:41:13 - 00:10:10:18
Susan O'Brien
This is a massive conversation happening right now. As you rightly point out, it's difficult to even want to use the R word, but let's call it an economic downturn. It goes back to what I just said, to be honest with you, which is if you understand your customers and you understand where they are in their lives. And that's really what I mean by like, there's lots of tools, data, there's the elements for the end of day, the outcome is that you understand your customers where they are and you've got to meet them.
00:10:10:18 - 00:10:35:10
Susan O'Brien
There. And again, we're very fortunate at Canadian Tire because you even just look at what we sell at a single band or let's say cage or retail. We have the ability to, if we understand where customers are, is it? And in what we focus on and what we offer them. With 200 and some business categories, a key insight, we have just gone through that very sort of privileged data.
00:10:35:10 - 00:10:57:20
Susan O'Brien
We have our customer data from our credit card. We have lots of good insights and get them earlier so you can really start to shift. So for example, we saw really early that customers were starting to shift from what we call discretionary into essentials, meaning it makes sense, right? You know, you're feeling a little more constrained financially. You're going to start shifting.
00:10:58:08 - 00:11:18:17
Susan O'Brien
And that's not rocket science. But what is, is our ability to know which customers and which income levels and therefore, what does that mean for our assortment? What does that mean for what we market and what we sort of put out there is value messaging. How do you change your 1 to 1 offers program so that you can be sort of more relevant from a value perspective?
00:11:19:01 - 00:11:46:14
Susan O'Brien
What does that mean in terms of how you assort from a good, better best perspective in your stores? So the ability to really have tools to understand your customer and then to put them into action so that you really can pivot and show up differently when Canadians need you to be there differently. And so that's really been for us especially, we get asked a lot about, you know, how were you, how are you different than in the 2008 recession?
00:11:46:14 - 00:12:04:11
Susan O'Brien
And what we always say is we're just literally a far more resilient company because we have new capabilities that we didn't have back then. And I don't think a lot of marketers and companies have. But you got to want to understand that customer and where they are and then have the tools and ability to pivot the offering in the way you market to them.
00:12:04:20 - 00:12:14:15
Alison Simpson
You're absolutely right. And then even the definition of essentials, depending on where you are in life stage, from an economic background perspective, your definition of essential is fundamentally different.
00:12:14:15 - 00:12:15:18
Susan O'Brien
Absolutely.
00:12:15:23 - 00:12:19:02
Alison Simpson
So being able to drill down on that would be incredibly powerful.
00:12:19:02 - 00:12:19:15
Susan O'Brien
It's amazing.
00:12:19:23 - 00:12:23:09
Alison Simpson
Now, are you seeing any regional differences in how Canadians are responding?
00:12:23:15 - 00:12:53:05
Susan O'Brien
For sure we do. I think one of the biggest aspirations we have is in this fairly rigorous analytical modeling is just probably not a surprise. But again, those with the most debt are reducing the most in terms of spend. And so our ability to understand exactly where that is happening is helping us again, change the way we show up in those in those markets in terms of the offering and the way we market, etc..
00:12:53:05 - 00:13:12:21
Susan O'Brien
So yeah, we're seeing regional differences just driven by the fact that, you know, some provinces, some regions are carrying heavier debt loads. So how do you make sure that you're there for them when they need you in that different way, be it or offers or or value, etc.?
00:13:13:18 - 00:13:22:15
Alison Simpson
And have you seen any new opportunities or new consumer segments emerge as Canadians are grappling with economic pressures?
00:13:23:07 - 00:13:44:21
Susan O'Brien
The way we think about this is are fortunate because we do have such substantial data to be able to segment as required based on that need. So yeah, I mean, what I would say is we have a segmentation that really looks at value in terms of how our customers and what we're seeing is there's this shift. So it's not that there's a new segment, it's that people are shifting within that segment.
00:13:44:21 - 00:14:10:06
Susan O'Brien
So you might have been, you know, someone who would have responded less to our flier, you might have bought more on price, you might have spent less time taking us up on our 1 to 1 offers program and tribal rewards. And you might have bought more national brands, let's say. So there's you know, the ability to go well seeing customer just eating differently in this moment.
00:14:10:14 - 00:14:15:12
Susan O'Brien
And fortunately you know we have a suite of offerings that and and the more they are.
00:14:15:21 - 00:14:38:04
Alison Simpson
It's great and marketers and brand leaders can have a unique opportunity to certainly drive awareness and change for important social issues. So this is a great example. Certainly ESG and I know that this is the case for Canadian Tire, certainly with your commitment to make life in Canada better. So how do you determine which societal areas you want to make a positive impact on?
00:14:38:14 - 00:14:41:19
Alison Simpson
And what are some of the initiatives that you've developed to make life in Canada better?
00:14:42:07 - 00:15:20:08
Susan O'Brien
You know, I go back to our what I call better connected strategy, because that's the strategy. But that strategy was built off of a renewed and evolved brand purpose. But again, CEO support, this was not like the marketers saying we better have a brand purpose or this was our CEO wanting to codify the role we play in the lives of Canadians and the difference in that versus, hey, we should do something like this, you know, driven by the folks in New York, the marketers, whatever you want to call it, is substantial because it formed the foundation of our strategy.
00:15:20:18 - 00:15:47:14
Susan O'Brien
And the idea was every decision has to flow through that lens and not just the sort of call it corporate responsibility decisions. Every decision across the five pillars of that better strategy. Not only do we look at almost every decision we make through that lens, we also actually have a pillar that is focused on that, that notion of, I would say, ESG, but I would say broad broadly.
00:15:48:07 - 00:16:12:00
Susan O'Brien
It's this idea of how are we again, in the context of creating emotional connections for Canadians, making decisions that support Canadians, help build this country. We call it sometimes we call our role as a nation builder like we have. We have an accountability responsibility to this country to make sure that we're operating in a way that is right for Canadians.
00:16:12:11 - 00:16:38:18
Susan O'Brien
And so we've spent a lot of time going through very specific. What does that look like? What does it look like? We call it debate the entire diversity and inclusion and belonging. What does that what does that look like? And we've got substantial progress made in terms of people feeling like they belong through ERGs and sort of courageous conversations and real shifts in how we think about diversity.
00:16:39:07 - 00:17:03:03
Susan O'Brien
When you go to sort of the more aspect of it, the environmental aspect of it, we spent significant time. We even have a committee within our board at it's called the Branded Corporate Responsibility Committee, and they oversee our strategy. And so when you look at the EA, we launched our first ESG official ESG report about a year ago, again, driven out of this better strategy, just launched second one on September 6th.
00:17:03:08 - 00:17:37:06
Susan O'Brien
And there's some pretty big commitments in there. We made a scope, one and two commitment in that we made another commitment around unity with respect to have heard that we have committed 50% of our total sponsorship money to women's professional sports. And then we just recently became the founding sponsor of the Women's Professional Hockey League in Canada. We have doubled down on our crisis sort of interventions due across the country when there's a weather situation, flooding, etc. are released.
00:17:37:06 - 00:18:08:04
Susan O'Brien
From the humanitarian perspective, we have a partnership with Red Cross. So, I mean, I could go on and on and these are literally initiatives driven out of that promise to be there to make life better for Canadians and our beliefs that we have a very important long history. And it is not just to sell stuff to people. And so it just once you've said that people act that way, they come up with ways to sort of deliver on that promise in the most interesting ways.
00:18:08:04 - 00:18:13:17
Susan O'Brien
I'm normally delighted by what I hear happens across the organization in this regard.
00:18:13:17 - 00:18:38:10
Alison Simpson
And building on that point, you are truly making a difference as a brand of business in Canada and having the network of store owners that you do have across the country. I've seen some amazing examples of store owners sort of taking it on their own initiative to live up to that. And there was a snowstorm where literally the entire town was closed down, that the Canadians tire store and our went in and opened it up to support the community.
00:18:38:17 - 00:18:45:11
Alison Simpson
So what are some of the ways that you've been able to get that level of commitment from your store owners as well?
00:18:45:18 - 00:19:23:01
Susan O'Brien
It's probably clever, but I love this company. I believe in what we're trying to do and I think the dealers are we call them our associate dealers, dealers, those store owners. They are the heart of this company. And so when we talk about I said we evolved and codified our purpose, we are here to make life better. When you're doing that for a corporation that has a number of banners and a bank and a whole bunch, things like that, you naturally default to your sort of color, your organizing logic as a company.
00:19:23:01 - 00:19:46:12
Susan O'Brien
And that organizing logic is around the entire retail and community. Retail is built through our dealers and how they show up in their community. So in some ways, I mean, we didn't have to encourage anything. If anything, we built off the legacy that they have in this company being there. So it's the craziest thing. We we have our corporate things and initiatives we have to do and want to do and not to do.
00:19:46:19 - 00:20:13:04
Susan O'Brien
And then we have this like unbelievable sort of on the ground, always on community ambassadors in our dealers, in the stores. You know, I just came back from our dealer convention, which happened, and all our dealers come together, talk strategy and a variety of other things. And we have an award. And every year, I swear to God, it breaks me up for dealers who do things in their communities and kind of blows your mind.
00:20:13:04 - 00:20:34:05
Susan O'Brien
I'm not kidding. It's our secret sauce. It is our ability to be here for another 100 years runs directly through those two or so. You don't have to encourage much. The only thing I would say is we're just really trying to even understand more of what they do, frankly, so that we can make sure that all the best practices and things that we're doing, we understand.
00:20:34:05 - 00:20:39:07
Susan O'Brien
So that's a little bit of work we took on as part of the thing. But we're we're very fortunate.
00:20:39:18 - 00:20:50:13
Alison Simpson
And screwed now as we look ahead to 2024 and unfortunately, the potential for another challenging economic year, how can brands ensure that they're staying true to the promises that they've made?
00:20:50:23 - 00:21:14:03
Susan O'Brien
Yeah, this is a big one. I mean, there's lots out there literature wise. Yes. Painting in terms of importance to companies and is going to be put on hold at I'll just put it out there, I believe amp put on hold. But it does have to be balanced with everything else that has to get done because we can't actually be great at ESG if we're not being successful at business.
00:21:14:16 - 00:21:33:13
Susan O'Brien
And it's like there's not trade offs there. I fundamentally need that now, especially for a company that believes we're going to differentiate based on emotional connection that, you know, the two go hand in hand. You're not trading off some ESG initiative for building your business, but you do need to balance the investments you make. So that's what it's about.
00:21:33:13 - 00:21:53:05
Susan O'Brien
I mean, that is those are the conversations that happen and you make commitments and those commitments need to be felt. So it really is you know, it's that conversation, that belief in your strategy and coming together to say, how do we accomplish? Or then we probably should based on what's happening in the market right now. But we are committed.
00:21:53:05 - 00:22:15:01
Susan O'Brien
Certainly. I think one thing I just threw out there is our Jumpstart charity. I didn't mention it earlier and the long list of things we've been doing, probably because we've been doing it for 15 years now, just celebrating 15 years a long time. And that program we there's no scaling back on that really ever. We have just continuously invested in it.
00:22:15:07 - 00:22:38:21
Susan O'Brien
We've expanded the mandate of that program to not just be about helping kids, you know, who can't get into sports from an economic perspective to how do we help young women become leaders through sport. So we there's no pullback on our part, but there is a balancing and a lot of creativity being used to get to that end game, just given where companies are right now.
00:22:38:21 - 00:22:40:13
Susan O'Brien
I think everyone is headed that way.
00:22:41:06 - 00:22:59:18
Alison Simpson
Thank you on behalf of the amazing company you're working for. I certainly growing up was encouraged to be involved in sports when it wasn't always the norm for females. And I think about the life learning I got from that, the way it helped set me up for professional success. The just the the grit that you develop and being involved in that.
00:22:59:18 - 00:23:12:03
Alison Simpson
So that legacy you have as enabling Canadians who don't have the financial means to enjoy and benefit from that learning and those life skills is absolutely commendable. So thank.
00:23:12:03 - 00:23:13:07
Susan O'Brien
You. Thank you, Alison.
00:23:13:16 - 00:23:25:11
Alison Simpson
Now, absolutely. There are going to be some valuable insights shared today, Susan, and you certainly didn't disappoint. So I'd love to close by asking you to share one piece of advice for the marketers who are listening to us today.
00:23:26:06 - 00:23:59:16
Susan O'Brien
I think it comes back to I put myself in my younger shoes and I think about the times where I didn't feel that I had a voice at the table. Maybe different for some brands, but if you feel like that, challenge yourself and push yourself at the worst thing that anyone could say is no. But if you really believe it, you need to bring that voice of the customer to the table, even when you're uncomfortable, it matters.
00:23:59:16 - 00:24:17:05
Susan O'Brien
It can make a difference. And I feel very fortunate to work for a company that does value that. But I also don't always win. There are there are times where, you know, there's other considerations and again, it comes back to, that's okay, you got to move that penny forward every day, day in day out.
00:24:18:05 - 00:24:34:04
Alison Simpson
And that's such great advice. And as a younger marketer, I also suffered from the will and willingness to be brave enough to speak up. The good news is it does get easier, but you really do have to take that risk and ultimately what you learn as No, it doesn't hurt that much.
00:24:34:17 - 00:24:47:01
Susan O'Brien
It has not hurt that much. Yeah, 100%. You do. And that's that whole sort of notion of test and learn culture. It's okay. It's okay if everything doesn't work. What did you learn from it? Yeah, some.
00:24:47:01 - 00:24:59:16
Alison Simpson
Of my most valuable lessons came the hard way, for sure. So, Susan, I want to thank you again. I know you're incredibly busy and I really appreciate you taking time to join us on CMA Connect today. And I wish you a great rest of your day.
00:24:59:22 - 00:25:08:21
Susan O'Brien
I'd just like to say to you, thank you for all the tremendous work you're doing at the CMA from all the marketers who really benefit from your work. I really appreciate it.
00:25:08:21 - 00:25:19:15
Alison Simpson
So great and blessed to have a great team and a lot of very actively involved members who are volunteering. So I will take the thank you on their behalf as well.
00:25:22:10 - 00:25:36:18
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EP25 - Forging Tomorrow's Talent With Rhonda Barnet
06 Aug 2024
00:32:41
In this thought-provoking episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, is joined by Rhonda Barnet, CEO of Palette Skills to discuss the critical role of workforce development in driving innovation and productivity in Canada. Rhonda highlights the importance of including marketing in upskilling programs and delves into the early success stories emerging from the Digital Marketing Skills Canada (DMSC) program.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:05 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.
00:00:23:07 - 00:00:53:07 Alison In today's episode, we have a special guest who brings a very unique perspective on workforce development as well as the critical role it plays in driving innovation and productivity in Canada. Joining me is Rhonda Barnet, the CEO of Pallete Skills, an organization that's at the forefront of delivering the Upskill Canada program. With a background in industry, Rhonda has a very deep understanding of the challenges employers face in developing the workforce of tomorrow and the importance of creating a truly sustainable, innovative economy.
00:00:53:09 - 00:01:24:16 Alison Rhonda is very much a female trailblazer, having achieved great heights in very male dominated industries and institutions. She is a successful executive, entrepreneur, sir and director, as well as a key voice in Canada and around the world when it comes to skills of the future, workforce development and diversity. Rhonda and I also share our first. She was the first woman to chair the National Board of Canada's oldest, largest trade association, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, and I'm the first female CEO of the CMA.
00:01:24:18 - 00:01:47:20 Alison Rhonda joined Pallete Skills in 2021 to help Canadians build careers and growing industries, which is how our paths crossed. The CMA, in partnership with two of our member companies, Jelly Academy and Growclass, were awarded funding to upskill 1200 marketers and help them find new roles as part of Palette Skills innovative upskilling Canada program, which is funded by the Canadian government.
00:01:47:22 - 00:02:15:03 Alison In our conversation will delve into the origin story of Upskill Canada and the government's vision for addressing key skill gaps across high demand professions and industries. We'll also discuss the case for including marketing in the upskilling initiative and the early success stories emerging from our Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, which is led by the CMA. Rhonda will also share her insights on how upskilling drives innovation and her advice for aspiring leaders in our field.
00:02:15:05 - 00:02:24:14 Alison So let's dive in and learn how we can all play a part in building a brighter future for marketing and the Canadian workforce. Welcome, Rhonda. It's great to be speaking with you today.
00:02:24:16 - 00:02:27:08 Rhonda Thank you Alison. Thank you so much.
00:02:27:10 - 00:02:38:15 Alison I'd love to kick things off by having you share what government needs and aspirations led to the creation of Upskill Canada, and how does Upskill Canada aim to impact various professions and industries in our country?
00:02:38:17 - 00:03:01:07 Rhonda Yeah, thank you for that. It's a nice, broad question that I'd love to take some time on. So this investment comes from Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada which used to be Industry Canada. So having come from 32 years in industry, I know full well of the issues that industry face around skilled labour and the skilled labou r shortage.
00:03:01:09 - 00:03:30:14 Rhonda So this investment was really about looking at the systemic problem in Canada, where, you know, on one hand, we tout that we have this highly skilled workforce and that we are second in the OECD in terms of tertiary degrees in the world. And yet we have this enormous skills gap, and mid-career workers are not able to keep navigating to that next job along the path in Canada.
00:03:30:20 - 00:03:59:21 Rhonda So while on one hand, we're making tremendous strides and incredible investments as a country in skills development, you know, at the early stages of a person's career, we need to do more to keep them connected. And I think from a manufacturing perspective of retooling, we don't throw away things. We retool. And that's what upskilling is. We want to be able to do small things in a fast period of time to ensure that workers have what they need for that next opportunity.
00:03:59:22 - 00:04:33:18 Rhonda We want to make the most in Canada of the workforce that we have available to us, so that we can actually compete on talent. And so that's really where this whole Upskill Canada investment was born, that this was an initiative that was put forward to Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. They put out an RFP in 2022. We were selected March 2023 to be the lead applicant on this $250 billion investment to upskill 15,500 workers over three years.
00:04:33:18 - 00:04:59:05 Rhonda It's the biggest investment in Canadian history in upskilling. And we're so privileged and honoured to be the lead applicant to really convene the ecosystem to do this meaningful work. So, you know, why is it important? It's important because, you know, at the root of it, we have this, these hot pockets of highly skilled talent that are underutilized. People are not getting their full advancement in their career.
00:04:59:07 - 00:05:32:10 Rhonda And we have all of these companies with job openings. And so our program is to really bridge that gap. It's to say, okay, let's look at the potential of the workers and these sort of short cycle programs that can get them the very specific skills that industry is asking for in a very short time. And let's put that together across the country, across sectors, make meaningful investments that are going to help workers achieve their full potential and help employers achieve their full potential by having the skilled talent they need to grow and compete.
00:05:32:12 - 00:05:39:15 Rhonda And when that works, then Canada can achieve its full potential with thriving humming economy.
00:05:39:17 - 00:06:11:00 Alison Thanks so much, Rhonda. What an amazing first and what an important mission critical mandate that you have through pallet and the Skills Canada Initiative and I really applaud the innovation that you, in partnership with the federal government, have developed in order to really meet that mission critical need. I'd love to have you share what led to the inclusion of marketing, especially digital marketing, in the Upskill Canada initiative and what data was used to showcase the importance of digital marketing in the skills gap in the marketplace.
00:06:11:02 - 00:06:35:17 Rhonda You know, when we set this up, we were given the sectors. We were given six key sectors to develop an investment strategy around. Those sectors are ag tech, advanced manufacturing, bio manufacturing, clean tech, digital tech and cyber technology. And you know, marketing wasn't specifically called out as a sector. But of course we know marketing is actually a crosswalk across all sectors.
00:06:35:17 - 00:06:59:15 Rhonda And digital marketing even more so, we know that this digital investment that we're making is really cross-cutting across all sectors. But you know, where did where do we sort of get the justification for this investment? When we were given this investment, we went to Deloitte to help support an investment framework for these funds that would have the most impact for Canada economy in these six sectors.
00:06:59:17 - 00:07:27:03 Rhonda And that investment analysis is available on our website. But that was very big macroeconomic analysis of, you know, where are the key roles and sectors that if we made investments there, we'd get the most economic gain for our country. And what we heard in that report, in our own report, is that digital marketing skills are critical for success of all of Canada's growth sectors.
00:07:27:03 - 00:08:03:00 Rhonda So it's in that report. And even though it wasn't called out specifically in our application process, your organization came forward and you built a very compelling case, a very compelling proposal, and you really highlighted the business need in Canada for digital marketing. And I remember this actually coming over my desk for review. And I'd like to maybe read some of the stats that came through that application that really captured our interest and our attention as we looked to approve various investments.
00:08:03:02 - 00:08:33:07 Rhonda So three organizations which are near and dear to me. The Conference Board of Canada, was cited, estimating that the demand for digital marketers is grown over 90% in the last five years. That's really compelling. And the ICTC, the Information and Communication Technology Council forecasts that Canada's interactive digital media space is on pace to require an additional 103,000 workers by 2025.
00:08:33:07 - 00:08:58:22 Rhonda So you submitted that in 2023. We're almost at 2025. So how are we going to meet that demand, that's compelling. And additional statistics from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce from 2020, 70% of Canadian CEOs report significant challenges recruiting and retaining diverse digital marketing talent with the right certifications and skills. So that's a very compelling business case that you presented.
00:08:59:00 - 00:09:28:15 Rhonda And what we know is that marketing is a really great example of a profession where skills are constantly evolving, and that's really what Upskill Canada is here to solve for is, as things are disrupted and changing, we want to make sure that the workers stay relevant, that they have that next skill to remain relevant in their profession, or to change professions, that they are given an opportunity to leverage what they have, add something small and have a vibrant new career.
00:09:28:15 - 00:09:50:20 Rhonda So I think this investment, it ticked all of those boxes and we're very excited. And I think we're going to talk a little bit later on about this specific investment. But we do know that the the investments that are made in this program, they are cross-cutting across all sectors. So it's a great project for Upskill Canada. It's a great project for Canada.
00:09:50:22 - 00:10:22:05 Alison Thanks for and and I really appreciate you and your team being open to the submission that we made and the importance of upskilling in marketing. There is no industry in Canada that isn't going through dramatic change today, I would say, and clearly I have a bias, but think having been worked across a number of different industries, the role of marketing and the number of external pressures and the amount of change that we as a profession are grappling with really is significantly more than most other industries.
00:10:22:05 - 00:10:42:14 Alison And it really speaks to the need to upskill marketers and make sure that they can continue to have the skills that they need to thrive and help the businesses that they represent grow. And we're certainly seeing that in the high demand for the three programs that we're offering as part of the Digital Marketing Skills Canada initiative. And we can talk about that a little bit later.
00:10:42:16 - 00:10:59:06 Alison Now, I would love you to talk about why workforce development is critical for fueling innovation in Canada, and also how can upskilling programs like ours, the Digital Marketing Skills Canada, help address Canada's productivity gap, especially as it relates to innovation?
00:10:59:08 - 00:11:24:05 Rhonda Yeah, so when I think about workforce development, I actually like to use workforce innovation. I'm going around the country right now talking about the need for workforce innovation, but I've really started talking about it in terms of productivity. There's a lot of conversations in Canada right now about productivity and lagging productivity for our country. I think about productivity as a three legged stool.
00:11:24:07 - 00:11:53:04 Rhonda There's research and development and investments there by companies. There's new technologies that are leveraged through companies, and then there's people that need the skills to take advantage of those new technologies and to do that research and development, to develop that next technology, to develop that next product. So if we're going to think about productivity in Canada, let's not just think about technology and how we're going to have more, better technology.
00:11:53:06 - 00:12:24:16 Rhonda We need humans to do that. And so we have a three legged stool in Canada around productivity. And really it's almost a bit of a chicken and egg because we can't develop those technologies if we don't have the skilled workers to deploy and companies to do that research and development and to leverage new technologies and companies. You know, when you think about productivity, it's really about creating more output and more value with less input.
00:12:24:18 - 00:13:03:19 Rhonda And, you know, when we really give people high level, specific skills to do the job, to do a better job, to do a higher quality job, that's an advancement for the country, that's an advancement for the worker. And so I really like to think about workforce development and workforce innovation as a big lever in productivity in Canada. So how are we looking at solving this problem at Pallette, you know, through our investments and your investment being being one of those. We're really looking at this pool of workers in Canada that are these high potential people that aren't being seen for their full potential.
00:13:03:19 - 00:13:35:19 Rhonda And we think about all of these unfilled jobs. And as I said in the opening, we're here to bridge that gap between the skills gap and industry needs. That's what we're here to do in Canada. We want to elevate the standard of upskilling because we want to demonstrate that with partners like you that we can design short cycle, quick programs to get workers the skills they need, where they're at right now and deploy them into the workforce quickly. And again, that's such a big lever in productivity.
00:13:35:19 - 00:13:53:09 Rhonda When we think about the double drag of people not having their full potential, it's a drag on the economy and we're going to make quick investments and we're going to then be able to lift and see a double win on the economy when workers and employers achieve their full potential. So that's what our investments are aimed to do.
00:13:53:11 - 00:14:21:16 Rhonda And we know that to solve this, we need to leverage our our highly diverse, highly skilled and highly motivated workforce so that we can ensure that workers are getting the right skills at the right time in their working lives. And we need to be thinking about workers, as you know, in terms of their whole working lives. It's not like you go to school for 3 or 4 years, and then you're just dumped into the workforce for 30 or 40 years, and you're fine with just small fine tuning or training.
00:14:21:16 - 00:14:42:20 Rhonda We think about upskilling is really elevating a person. So that's what Upskill Canada's here to do. That's how we think about being innovative in terms of workforce development, that we're really going to use these investments to help Canadians make the most of their working lives and help companies access the skills they need at the time they need them to compete and grow.
00:14:42:22 - 00:14:50:13 Rhonda And this is what we need to innovate on the Canadian economy and around productivity in Canada.
00:14:50:15 - 00:15:27:02 Alison So well said, Rhonda, and when I think about my finishing my schooling and 25 plus years later, how much the profession, the our consumers, the marketplace has evolved. If I had thought that what I knew when I finished school was all I would need, I would have been out of a career, this career decades ago. So that ongoing learning and upskilling is so important to us as a country to benefiting our ability to innovate and drive our economy, and also for the individual from a job satisfaction and job growth.
00:15:27:04 - 00:15:54:08 Alison I will say one of the most rewarding things about the training we're doing through the DMSC initiative is seeing firsthand and talking to the learners as they're going through one of our three programs, as they're getting support in their job search and as they're landing their job, there is nothing more rewarding than to see the impact we're having a very personal level, too, and often on underrepresented groups.
00:15:54:10 - 00:16:21:11 Alison That is such a core mandate and mission for, I know, for Upskill Canada, for Palette, and certainly for the CMA as well. So to see the positive impact other national as well as an individual basis speaks volumes about the importance of the program and company that you're leading. Now I would love you to share what kind of impact you envision pilots upskilling initiatives will have on the broader Canadian economy.
00:16:21:13 - 00:17:01:13 Rhonda Yeah, I just love this question. I love to answer this question, and I want to just keep going back to this concept of potential because it's really about potential. Canada has so much potential. We have great humans, great workers in our country, highly skilled workers, and we have amazing companies in Canada. And if we're going to achieve our full potential as a country, we have to make sure that workers are able to achieve their full potential, that they are seen for the jobs of the future, that they are seen for that next job, that they are not pigeonholed because of the kind of experience that they've had to date or the country that they came
00:17:01:13 - 00:17:24:03 Rhonda from, that they don't have Canadian experience. We need humans to be seen for their full potential, so that companies can achieve their full potential and Canada can achieve its full potential. So to me, that is the greatest impact that we can have through this investment. But this investment is just a drop in the bucket. I do know that, but it's an important one and it's a national one.
00:17:24:05 - 00:17:50:07 Rhonda And so this investment is going to change the lives of at least 15,500 workers in Canada, will get access to these upskilling programs across sectors, across our nation. And the goal is to have 75% of those workers achieve job placement. So that's the real differentiator. That's the real impact here is that we're not looking to put bums on seats in training programs in Canada.
00:17:50:09 - 00:18:18:14 Rhonda Lots of organizations can do that. We really want pointed upskilling programs, high potential workers that want to take those programs and land in a job and make sure that everything that we are doing and investing in is leading to those job outcomes. We have significant targets for equity deserving groups within our our investment mandate, and all delivery partners are contracted to ensure that they're meeting those.
00:18:18:14 - 00:18:34:14 Rhonda And I would like to say that we are knocking those out of the park. So I want to give you a few stats from our early wins on this investment. And we're only one year into the program. And, you know, it took several months to get off the ground and to make the formal investments with organizations like yours.
00:18:34:14 - 00:18:57:08 Rhonda So we expect to hear so many more stats coming out in the next few months around impact and job placement. But right now, what we're seeing is that 94% of our participants have identified as belonging to one or more of the equity deserving groups that we have been contracted to to fulfill. So that's that's really amazing. And this one blows my mind.
00:18:57:08 - 00:19:18:13 Rhonda 52.3% of them were women, because when we were given this mandate and trying to figure out in all these technology sectors that we're serving, how are we going to attract 50% women? How are we going to think about the population, which I think is 52% of women in the country, that that we can do that. And guess what?
00:19:18:13 - 00:19:42:18 Rhonda Right now we're doing that and we're pretty excited about that. We've already upskilled through our programs, around 3000 workers. And in that data, we're seeing that 52% through all delivery partners are women. So that excites me because of all the work that I did around women in manufacturing. 84% of those have agreed that the program gave them the technical skills that they need to compete.
00:19:42:18 - 00:20:07:04 Rhonda So these programs are relevant, and that's really exciting. 86% said that the program gave them the professional skills to compete, and more than 90% said that they would recommend the program to others. So what we're doing is making a difference in people's lives, and that is going to translate to jobs, and that's what we'll be tracking next. But that's a broad scope of the investments.
00:20:07:04 - 00:20:28:16 Rhonda You know, I'd really like to spend some time talking about your investment. Alison, I'd really like to hear about what you're doing with this digital marketing program that where we've made an investment through Upskill Canada. I want to hear about some of the insights and early successes and love for you to share with me and share with the country what you're doing and what you're achieving.
00:20:28:18 - 00:20:56:00 Alison Rhonda, I am more than happy to have the tables turned on me and switch roles to the interviewee instead of the interviewer, so thank you very much for the question. So I will start by saying that earlier you called out the importance of mid-career upskilling. So part of our Digital Marketing Skills Canada consortium, we have three different programs, but two of them are focused on that specific need, that mid-market need because we, like you, know there's a mission critical demand there.
00:20:56:02 - 00:21:17:09 Alison And I'm also very happy to say from a diversity perspective, you're doing very well. On the female side, we're doing even better. We're sitting at about 65% of our learners are female, and we have over 80% of all of the learners that are participating to date in our program are from underrepresented groups. And we're performing quite well as BIPOC, too.
00:21:17:09 - 00:21:50:10 Alison So we're very, very happy that collectively and also our program are over achieving the targets on the diversity side to0. So we're only six months in. We just celebrated our six month anniversary on the program. We started in January, and the beginning point was having our consortium build, launch and ramp up three upskilling marketing programs to create new pathways for junior through that important mid-market and more senior career marketing talent into Canada's very dynamic digital marketing space.
00:21:50:12 - 00:22:18:16 Alison The CMA is absolutely thrilled that we're partnering with two other leaders in delivering these three distinct training programs that are uniquely equipped to really meet the needs of marketers across a wide range of skills and experience. And as I highlighted earlier, the marketing profession is moving at warp speed. There are so many external pressures that are changing how we do our our work, and it can be very challenging for marketers to stay up to speed.
00:22:18:16 - 00:22:45:04 Alison So each of our programs is uniquely equipped to ensure that they can. And it also makes sure that our marketers who graduate can excel in today's very demanding and constantly evolving marketing environment. So one of our partners is Jelly Academy, and they're an indigenous-led Canadian company who are specializing in delivering training to junior marketers and also those that are interested in pursuing a career in marketing for the first time.
00:22:45:06 - 00:23:24:10 Alison Our second partners Growclass, and they're a female-founded Canadian company. They've got a really terrific track record for upskilling mid-level digital marketers. And the CMA complements these two programs with our Chartered Marketer program. The Chartered Marketer program is Canada's only professional designation for marketers, and it's designed for mid to senior level marketers. So one of the key benefits of our Digital Marketing Skills Canada consortium is that we do offer these three different seven week training programs that are very specifically designed to upskill marketers with very different levels of experience, from brand new to the profession, through to quite senior marketers.
00:23:24:12 - 00:23:48:03 Alison In our first six months, we've had over 1100 applications for our training programs, and we're on track to upskill over 470 learners. That's actually 70% higher than our target. And it really speaks to the high demand for the marketing upskilling that we're providing. We're training many marketers in transition and very focused on underrepresented workers for the program as well.
00:23:48:09 - 00:24:27:05 Alison So I'm happy to share that we're making a very positive difference there, too. And I shared some of those stats a bit earlier. But as I called up the the individuals, how it all ladders up to the overall impact that our programs having in the Upskill Canada program was having, has the potential to be such a game changer for our country and also at the individual level. Every day, every week, we're having more people graduate from one of our programs and to talk to them about the positive impact we're having, to share and support them through their career journey, and to see the satisfaction they're landing new roles and really seeing their career trajectory
00:24:27:05 - 00:24:58:05 Alison change for the positive is truly one of the most rewarding parts of my job. So on that, we're supporting our learners and graduates through their job search, and really ensuring that they have the important networking and interviewing skills and that's something that is a key focus of the consortium. I know of the bigger Upskill Canada program as well. And then our all graduates also benefit from a one year membership with the CMA, which makes it really easy for them to network, to continue to learn, and to be part of a thriving national marketing community.
00:24:58:07 - 00:25:21:18 Alison We're also very proud that 241 of our learners have already been placed in jobs.
Rhonda Wow.
Alison That's over 50% of all of our learners to date, and there are quite a few learners that are still finishing their programs, so haven't been able to focus as fully on their job search yet. So with that, we are very much on track to exceed your target and to have more than 80% of our graduates placed in new roles within six months of graduating.
00:25:21:18 - 00:25:31:05 Alison And that is such an important mandate for the CMA and our partners in the consortium. And I know it's certainly an important mandate for you and Palette as well.
00:25:31:06 - 00:25:52:23 Rhonda Wow, congratulations, Alison. That's just so exciting. And, you know, this is such a great example of elevating the standard of upskilling in Canada. You're doing it. You're knocking it out of the park. We've made this investment with you. You did all of the right things. You found the right curriculum that industry was looking for and the right kind of people to put through those programs.
00:25:53:01 - 00:26:13:06 Rhonda And they're succeeding, and they're completing those programs, and they're getting jobs in Canada, and they're working for companies to help those companies grow and prosper. So congratulations. This is exactly what we're hoping for in this investment. And thank you for helping to set the standard of upskilling in Canada.
00:26:13:08 - 00:26:46:10 Alison It's truly our pleasure and is very much a team effort. We have such great partners in our consortium, and it really shows the power of bringing together talented organizations and consortiums so that we can have the biggest possible impact. One of the other things that we launched last month was a talent pipeline, because with all of these great graduates and newly upskilled marketers across from very junior to quite senior people, we know that we want to make it as easy as possible for employers who are looking for these roles to find top talent.
00:26:46:10 - 00:27:09:07 Alison So we have a talent database that is easily accessible and easily searchable, and we're seeing very good feedback and uptake from not just the members of the Canadian Marketing Association, but it's open to employers across the country of all sizes. And it's such a powerful way to make sure that you're getting the right talent, and the most recently upskill talent to really help your business succeed.
00:27:09:09 - 00:27:25:01 Alison So, Rhonda, you've been very generous with your time today, and I'd love to ask you two questions before we close out. As a female CEO of a significant and dynamic organization, and one that's setting new firsts in our country, what do you attribute your success to?
00:27:25:03 - 00:27:48:17 Rhonda Yeah, that's a that's a really great question. You know, people think that I climbed a lot of ladders to get here, but I didn't I didn't, I didn't climb big corporate ladders to be the CEO of a national not for profit. But I did big things and I did hard things. And, and the way that I was able to do those things was through a lot of sponsorship and mentorship.
00:27:48:19 - 00:28:05:04 Rhonda You know, I came from a blue collar family, was the first to go to university, in my entire family and I took a degree in mathematics, because I was good in mathematics. I didn't know what job it would lead me to. But people mentored and coached me and helped me along the way to help me achieve my full potential.
00:28:05:04 - 00:28:47:22 Rhonda And it's really been my personal story that I could achieve more than I could see for myself. That there was this vision of myself that others could see as well, and I could learn to see that for myself. And I can have the confidence that I could do those things and follow that path. And so that's really what we're here to do in Upskill Canada, is to make sure that people see pathways for their future, that they don't get stuck, that because of their experience or their family of origin, that they're stuck in one place, that I think employment is the greatest success to break down barriers in, in our economy.
00:28:48:00 - 00:29:08:12 Rhonda And so we're here to really make sure that people are seen for their full potential. And that's been my own story. So it's so gratifying to have lived that myself and to now be able to do that for others. So when I was with the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters and running Women in Manufacturing, it was a really big policy initiative.
00:29:08:12 - 00:29:30:11 Rhonda And I had so many companies and people interested, and I got on the world stage with this. And and what I found, though, was as I was doing all of that work at a policy level to really bring attention and awareness to this, that real women would stand at my feet and say like, how? How do I do it?
00:29:30:13 - 00:29:53:23 Rhonda And so now through Upskill Canada, we have investments and tools to help people facing barriers to employment to access those programs and to be seen for better employment. So that's really my personal story. Like, who knew when I was growing up that I'd be the CEO of a national not for profit, but I did big things and I did them well, and I've had to learn to have confidence in my abilities.
00:29:53:23 - 00:30:04:03 Rhonda And lots of good people have put me on their shoulders to to ensure that I could see it and feel it, and to mentor and support me in my success.
00:30:04:05 - 00:30:26:12 Alison I love that you've come full circle. I also love you've done big things, but you also called out, you've done hard things and that's such an important part of growing your career and ultimately succeeding. And the other one that you've shared that really resonated with me from my personal experience is having people who believed in you and helped you see potential in yourself that you didn't, couldn't see without them.
00:30:26:14 - 00:30:42:17 Alison And to your point, Upskill Canada being able to help people over 15,000 people in Canada see that potential in themselves and really accelerate their career. My last question is, what advice would you give our listeners who are aspiring to leadership roles?
00:30:42:19 - 00:31:04:20 Rhonda Well, I think it's believe in yourself, have a vision for your future and take steps towards it. Like, I think you know, you don't always get invited in. Sometimes you have to take that step yourself and take the initiative. And so programs like Upskill Canada can help you. You can go and search all of the programs that we have in Canada and invest in yourself.
00:31:04:23 - 00:31:37:15 Rhonda These programs have very low barrier to entry. They're mostly subsidized that you can go and and be matched with programs to help you take that next step. And I think, you know, workers in Canada need to think about keeping current and taking more steps on their path and not getting stuck and not being fixed and, and have bold visions for yourself and go out there and and try to make it happen, because Canada is a great country to make that happen, frankly.
00:31:37:16 - 00:31:45:08 Rhonda I think there's a lot of opportunity in this country for people who want to be leaders, to be seen as leaders.
00:31:45:10 - 00:32:11:16 Alison Rhonda, it has been an absolute pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for your partnership and on behalf of the Canadian Marketing Association and also our DMSC consortium, we are thrilled to be part of the mission that you've seen for Canada and really helping to upskill our profession and help advance our economy and make sure our businesses are highly competitive and thriving, both on a national and a global basis.
00:32:20:04 - 00:32:32:18 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.
EP7 - The Evolution of Media with Cathy Collier
28 Nov 2023
00:20:32
Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, and Cathy Collier, CEO of OMD, delve into everything from the dynamic changes in consumer behaviour to the explosive surge of connected TV and the challenges local and mass media will face now and in the years ahead.
00:00:02:10 - 00:00:23:09
Announcer
Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMS CEO Allison Simpson.
00:00:23:09 - 00:00:49:13
Alison Simpson
The marketing profession has experienced an absolute tsunami of change, and media will be a prime example of that, especially when it comes to mass media with connected TV reaching scale with Canada leading the world in livestream, signal availability and attention metrics becoming more important, a massive evolution is absolutely underway. Today, I'm very pleased to be joined by Cathy Collier, the CEO of OMD and a leader in Canada's media and agency community.
00:00:50:04 - 00:02:29:00
Alison Simpson
Cathy's expertise and deep knowledge on media in Canada make her a terrific guide through the media tsunami. She'll share her insights on how mass media is changing, and it absolutely promises to be a thought provoking discussion. Thanks so much for joining us on CMA Connect today. Cathy, We're going to kick things off by having you answer what trends you're seeing that are most important for marketers for 2024.
00:02:29:00 - 00:03:10:02
Cathy Collier
So connected TV has to reach scale as well and in a lot of markets, but also in Canada, 74% of Canadian households have a smart TV. So connected TV is starting to close the gap in screen time spent between mobile and really the hardware that is now in living rooms. So thanks to many factors like Samsung plus really an avalanche of services, including our latest acronym, FAST, which stands for free ad supported streaming TV.
00:03:10:07 - 00:03:52:02
Cathy Collier
And a good example of that is Corus's Pluto. But both hardware and the services are really changing that ten foot living room experiences and the economies of mass media forever. And then moving on to what would be the third trend that we're paying attention to, that everyone is paying attention to? Is A.I. within the loop of creativity. So really, the first impact I think everyone is seeing is inclusive of ideation, of audience testing, dynamic, creative, as well as content and writing within SEO.
00:03:52:22 - 00:04:23:18
Cathy Collier
But as we all know, A.I. is really, really tricky on ethics. The biases that are built in intellectual property and privacy. You only have to look at the writers strike to know how much impact it is having. And I heard a great analogy about A.I., and that is, you know, they build F1 cars to go really, really fast, but they also design them with state of the art brakes.
00:04:24:04 - 00:04:28:16
Cathy Collier
So to avoid crashing and I don't think that we have the brakes yet.
00:04:29:05 - 00:04:31:01
Alison Simpson
That is such a fitting analogy. I love it.
00:04:31:09 - 00:05:16:05
Cathy Collier
So and fourth of four things that we're paying attention to and really have been building data around is attention planning and optimization around it. It really sheds light on how important scripted programing news and audio formats are. So OMD has been investing in attention for a number of years. Attention is a key indicator for effectiveness. Studies by amplified intelligence uses advanced eye tracking, and they've shown a strong correlation between the amount of attention paid to ad formats and their impact on both short term sales and long term salience.
00:05:16:05 - 00:05:51:24
Cathy Collier
So all of these trends, all four trends are showing how quickly things are changing pretty significantly. And it does highlight the opportunities. But it brings to mind really the conversation that continues to be underlying, which is all about impact measurement and the business value of a brand, the importance of unified measurement and how we're working with marketers to define frameworks that help them demonstrate the value marketing brings to the business.
00:05:52:05 - 00:06:05:19
Cathy Collier
Even in the face of all this change and fragmentation. And it's hard, right? The math is hard, the politics are harder and but they're doable and we're doing it now.
00:06:06:02 - 00:06:27:15
Alison Simpson
That's such a great overview and thanks for sharing those four crucial trends. For every marketer that's listening today. And also to acknowledge you're obviously right, it is so incredibly hard. And I'm getting to my second question. When you take what's happening in the marketplace and overlay consumer behaviors, it just adds to the complexity. It still is doable, but it certainly won't be easy.
00:06:28:05 - 00:06:37:09
Alison Simpson
So on that note, how is changing consumer behavior affecting the media landscape, and what are the specific implications, ones that you see for the traditional mass media formats?
00:06:38:05 - 00:07:05:21
Cathy Collier
Good question, though. I think at a very high level, just looking at it, we know that consumers have been equally enabled through technology, but also through an abundance of content and they're spending a little bit of time at a whole bunch of places. Another word for fragmentation, of content, of platform of time, and they now have infinite choice and it's resulted in a couple other sub trends.
00:07:06:02 - 00:07:42:03
Cathy Collier
One that we've seen is a craving for nostalgia, and you can see it manifesting itself in the resurgence of programs like The Office. And if you look around, you can see nine of these type kind of topography being used in different campaigns. So they're also longing for that cultural connection. But at this point, taking all of those trends, we know that both consumers and media are trying to find the next set of viable models.
00:07:42:15 - 00:08:17:16
Cathy Collier
We can see that there's fractures right across the business models, and it's not really a debate whether the big prod casters and editorial publications will be still around or will change. They will have to be changing and they are changing. And this decade long trend of consumers migrating to new forms of content has led to new business models and economic realities that right so owners and content marketers have to get ahead of.
00:08:18:00 - 00:09:00:21
Cathy Collier
We can see that broadcast delivery units are not able to fund and share revenue and fuel an entire mass ecosystem the way they could in the past. And it's not coming back and looking specifically at local media and news. We can see that there's growing awareness among marketers and agencies on the impact to local media, and it's crucial to connect this awareness with the challenges facing local news outlets in the current climate and what's often overlooked is that this industry issue isn't solely a matter of economic concern.
00:09:01:08 - 00:09:41:07
Cathy Collier
It is a pressing social concern. Access to trusted Canadian news outlets for reliable information has become vital, particularly in an era where misinformation is on the rise. So finally, what our role is and all of this change as marketers and agents is I think that there's an opportunity for local media and brands to come together as businesses, not clients, not sales people, marketers and business owners, and innovate for the sake of shared growth in a very tough market.
00:09:42:14 - 00:09:58:01
Cathy Collier
By more ads doesn't help anyone in the long term. The role of the agency, we believe, is to very clearly orchestrate the conversation on both sides and keep it focused on what big picture matters.
00:09:58:20 - 00:10:24:24
Alison Simpson
Thanks, Cathy. And when you bring it back to Canadian consumer as and that, obviously we all want to be abreast of what's happening on the global stage. We also equally, if not more, want to be well on what's happening in our country and our neighborhoods. So can you share any data are learning you have on Canadian consumers desire around local media and what they're really looking for local media to deliver on?
00:10:24:24 - 00:10:32:13
Alison Simpson
Because that also opens the doors for opportunities for our Canadian media, media companies, marketers and agencies as well.
00:10:33:04 - 00:10:49:23
Cathy Collier
So I think consumers aren't aware of the changes going on, right. So and they need to be aware we need to make a bigger deal of the absence of local information and facts being made to them.
00:10:50:07 - 00:11:04:23
Alison Simpson
So when you what do you see as marketers and media agencies role in the transformation and in helping legacy media companies find a path for it? We know it's not going to be easy, but it's mission critical. So how can we work together to create the path for it?
00:11:05:23 - 00:11:32:08
Cathy Collier
So I think that there is a lot of examples of how the media companies are already evolving. And I'll just I'll mention a couple. I think we need to create more opportunities. So a couple of the great examples of how the media companies are evolving is chorus, right? Chorus launching Stack TV, a Canadian subscription video streaming package through Amazon's Prime channels.
00:11:32:18 - 00:12:01:02
Cathy Collier
That was a great example of them. Rogers Launching their Frequency podcast is another example. Rogers becoming the rep for Disney Plus in Canada. Again, more evolution. And then I think we can look in terms of publishing to how the Globe and Mail has really transformed. And I think it's over 60% of their revenue now comes from paying subscribers.
00:12:01:02 - 00:12:33:07
Cathy Collier
They have had so much success using the paywall automation technology called Sofi that runs on AI and was recently acquired and had that much value. We look to the US and New York Times. They've been buying things like Myrdal and the serial podcaster. So I think there's a lot of experimentation that marketers can take heart of heart from and really dig in to those conversations with the with the media owners.
00:12:33:15 - 00:12:57:21
Alison Simpson
And the examples of Canadian companies partnering with global companies and really coming together to deliver a better product and experience for consumers, as well as benefiting both of their businesses, is absolutely the path for that we'd all love to see. Yes. Now, can you envision a future without mass broadcasts? And if so, get out your crystal ball and when would you predict it to end?
00:12:57:21 - 00:13:00:06
Alison Simpson
And what measures can be taken to preserve it?
00:13:00:09 - 00:13:32:14
Cathy Collier
So I think the question is more will we notice when broadcast evolves to broadband and the current broadcasters: Bell... Rogers... There are also Internet providers combined with the strength of connected TV and with all the channels available through the apps, we may not notice. So what will happen? We think that, as we've said, connectivity, TV and advanced TV is maturing.
00:13:33:03 - 00:14:24:01
Cathy Collier
There's a technology footprint, a user base, a set of modern marketing tools that can and will keep the ten foot living room experience viable. Within this, we have a type of TV kind of reemerging as this free thing off the cable box, and the consequences are always really quite far reaching. We've talked about fast, that free ad supported streaming TV and this delivery distribution type is basically an unencumbered cable box that anyone can package up a few hundred hours of free TV around a thing theme and distribute it on one of the distributors like Pluto or Amazon or Samsung TV.
00:14:24:21 - 00:14:57:03
Cathy Collier
It is super interesting and we'll have the opportunity, although it's longer form content nearly entirely video based, but it can behave much like pre social internet. So many of the producers and media companies will enter The space will be what you call smaller businesses that will be in the same pool as the well-established media brands. So you've got hundreds of free ad supported channels on fast.
00:14:57:18 - 00:15:16:08
Cathy Collier
They're now distributed and all of these people, all these people forms, those will need to really consolidate everything together. So what's even more interesting, have major cultural events moving off of TV are certainly being challenged by other media.
00:15:17:06 - 00:15:45:12
Alison Simpson
There's so many examples of where a legacy business across many different industries gets upset by a startup who doesn't have the history, doesn't have the infrastructure, and can approach the industry from an entirely new way. So it's a great call out for our established media companies to have the need for them to continue to innovate and things like a start up while they're continuing to maintain and build a business they have today.
00:15:46:01 - 00:15:48:03
Alison Simpson
Not an easy balance, but certainly an important one.
00:15:48:14 - 00:15:49:08
Cathy Collier
Now for sure.
00:15:49:23 - 00:16:06:08
Alison Simpson
So great. Thanks so much for your insights today. I am not going to let you off the hook quite yet, though. I'd love you to leave our listeners with what advice you would give for first legacy media companies, then media agencies and then marketers. All right.
00:16:06:19 - 00:16:43:03
Cathy Collier
So in terms of legacy media companies, I think continue what you're doing, continue to think about and develop distribution across multiple platforms to echo where consumers are to look internationally for opportunities like Pluto and three are a start to engage with, with our help in conversations with marketers of products that we can develop together. In terms of media agencies, we need to continue.
00:16:43:04 - 00:17:15:11
Cathy Collier
We have done a really good job of getting the pipes in order of sourcing the data, using the data, and we need to really focus on our comms planning and specific weekly creativity focus because there is something called the born rest off a fact. And what that is, is that when you see a sea of sameness, if there is something a bit different, your eye will immediately go to that.
00:17:15:20 - 00:18:03:06
Cathy Collier
And so we need to be factoring in creative but also media creativity to to partner and make it even stronger too, for media agencies using all of the data we have within attention to refocus on places that consumers are paying attention like scripted video, scripted audio, and so make a concerted effort to be going where consumers are and then finally make sure that we continue or start using learning agendas and measurement frameworks so that we can be proving the impact marketing is having to sales.
00:18:03:23 - 00:18:37:24
Cathy Collier
And then finally, for marketers, we need to continue using and developing MMS, right? They are a great modeling tool to be able to tie your marketing efforts to the sales. And again, they're not easy, they're not fast, they're not free, and they do need to be done with an expert partner. B And for again, for marketers to be open for the creativity and innovation, embrace creators.
00:18:38:02 - 00:19:02:06
Cathy Collier
As a media channel, we've experimented with influencers but really consider creators as a potential media channel. And then finally, always focus on what is culturally important to attract people who have unlimited choice. We need to be creating tribes and focusing on what resonate to these people.
00:19:02:18 - 00:19:32:01
Alison Simpson
I think that's great advice and it all resonates to that. Really jumped out for me was the way to break out of that sea of sameness. You shared it as a great advice for media agencies, but it's very applicable to media legacy media companies and marketers as well. And then when I think about MMM, and I've been in the profession long enough to remember the days where it was seen to be nirvana, where you could actually prove directly link the marketing dollars through to the business results it was driving.
00:19:32:06 - 00:19:53:06
Alison Simpson
So I know it's not easy. I know it takes investment, but it is such a crucial way for us to demonstrate the business value that the marketing profession brings to all of the businesses. And Brand three represents and ultimately to our country's GDP. So absolutely outstanding advice on all fronts. And with that, I want to thank you so much for joining us today.
00:19:53:06 - 00:20:06:07
Alison Simpson
I know you're very busy, but you're also someone who has been such a passionate advocate for the media industry in the marketing profession. And I really appreciate you taking time today to share your insights with our listeners.
00:20:06:19 - 00:20:14:23
Cathy Collier
Thank you for the invitation. I've enjoyed our conversation.
00:20:14:23 - 00:20:29:06
Announcer
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.
EP6 - Igniting Imaginations with Jeremy Tucker
14 Nov 2023
00:26:57
Join the CEO of CMA, Alison Simpson, as she welcomes Jeremy Tucker, the EVP, Global Chief Marketing Officer at Spin Master Ltd. to rediscover the power of play, and the magic that dwells within us all.
00:00:02:11 - 00:00:21:08 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.
00:00:22:13 - 00:00:45:11 Alison: Today on CMA Connect, we're going to probe into the fascinating world of toys and children's entertainment. We're also going to hear how Spin Master, a Canadian company, has built a thriving global business and brand from a Canadian head office. Our guest today is Jeremy Tucker. Jeremy is Spin Masters EVP and Global Chief Marketing Officer. He joined the company after working on leading global brands, including Disney, Pepsi and Nissan, to name a few.
00:00:46:08 - 00:00:52:12 Alison: Jeremy just celebrated his first anniversary with Spin Master, so, Jeremy, happy anniversary and it's great to have you joining us today.
00:00:52:19 - 00:00:56:14 Jeremy: Thank you, Alison. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk today.
00:00:56:15 - 00:01:17:15 Alison: Now, I'm going to start by talking a bit about the global brand that Spin Master has built. A number of Canadian brands have tried to expand beyond our borders and struggled. Your brand has been incredibly successful and now significantly more of your business is from outside Canada than inside. This is a success that our listeners are absolutely keen to learn from.
00:01:18:01 - 00:01:21:06 Alison: So what do you attribute Spin Master's global growth and success to?
00:01:22:08 - 00:01:41:11 Jeremy: Yeah, it's a great legacy, right? And if you think about our humble beginnings, starting with the Earth Buddy, with our founders, it was just a relentless passion of really understanding the magic of play and making these incredible experiences and finding an audience for them. And the great thing that unites the world, of course, is our children, but also how we play.
00:01:41:21 - 00:02:08:11 Jeremy: And that might take different forms and different preferences around the world, but really, really understanding it and getting really close to the consumer, and what makes a kid, or a parent with the kid, excited to play. What that has enabled us to do is to create a footprint all around the world, first with our products, then as we evolved as a company with the brands that we're building, and now the power of all three of what we call our creative centres to bring it to life.
00:02:08:11 - 00:02:33:14 Jeremy: So now we've got products with toys, we've got digital games, and those experiences, which is another form of play. And of course, what ignites imaginations in the experience is our entertainment division. And it was a very systematic build and we followed the consumer and that's enabled us to really deliver this promise of delivering incredible play experiences that reimagine play, which is universal.
00:02:33:20 - 00:02:48:18 Alison: Thanks Jeremy,that's a great, great place to start. Now, I know you have a personal history working in franchise marketing, and it's certainly been key to Spin Master's success and growth. Can you share some of the ways that Spin Master is leveraging franchising so successfully and with such staying power?
00:02:50:08 - 00:03:12:00 Jeremy: Sure. Well, maybe we should start by talking about our crown jewel, Paw Patrol, right? Paw Patrol is an incredible franchise and I've had the ability to work on many children's franchises from some of the biggest that you've mentioned in my background. But I will tell you that I've never seen anything like Paw Patrol and the reason I would say that is the longevity of this franchise.
00:03:12:07 - 00:03:35:16 Jeremy: It's the leading preschool franchise in the world and it's been that way, we celebrated ten years, our ten year anniversary, so ten years strong. And the amazing thing about that is, again, thinking about how Paw Patrol works and operates and what we do to build it and strengthen it with our fans all around the world. Of course, you would say as a toy company it starts with the toys.
00:03:36:00 - 00:04:00:13 Jeremy: That's true. But it really starts with the consumers and it starts with the kids that are our fans, our core 4 to 6 year olds and of course, the parents that buy the product for them and really bringing to life a singular purpose. It's the adventure that all kids see, puppies which they love, but the underlying current is really empowering little kids to do big things.
00:04:01:06 - 00:04:26:17 Jeremy: And then, of course, the secret sauce to what we do in building a franchise is when you've got a strategy like that or you've got a story arc like that, a brand like that, our superpower is bringing story to shelf. Because if you can imagine it and you can play in your mind with what the world of Adventure City is and how Chase and Marshall and Skye all work together to save the day,
00:04:27:07 - 00:04:54:00 Jeremy: how do you now bring the products forward that actually deliver on that and capture the imagination of kids and parents so that they can play and live out those experiences? And that is really the thing that we challenge ourselves on from a franchise perspective, continually looking to where the kids are going around the world, looking at the themes that make them excited, that deliver that empowerment message and create the excitement and action, and have fun because this is about light.
00:04:54:13 - 00:05:13:04 Jeremy: And at the end of the day, that's what keeps us as a company up at night. It's just the relentless fanaticism of really understanding kids and moms all around the world. And as a marketer today, especially in the dynamic world of kids, which changes very quickly, you've got to stay on it. You got to stay close to the consumer.
00:05:13:13 - 00:05:23:18 Jeremy: Completely be fascinated with them and you guide your entire gamut of marketing, all the tools at your disposal, to really make sure you're delivering your message in multiple ways.
00:05:24:07 - 00:05:51:01 Alison: So Jeremy, building on what you shared, so kids can absolutely be fickle. And what's hot today won't be hot next week. Yet you're celebrating your 10th anniversary. So kudos, what a truly remarkable accomplishment. You also have a very unique global perspective on how kids are the same universally, but also if there are any differences. So I'd be curious to hear from your learning on Canadian kids and Canadian parents if you've noticed any differences.
00:05:51:16 - 00:06:15:08 Jeremy: Sure. Well, there's definitely some things that I would say resonate very powerfully with our Canadian audience. So if you look at our first Paw Patrol movie, for example, not the one that's currently in theatres, but the one previous, which really set the bar for what we want to do as an entertainment company. The first opening scene, if you would notice there are the pups saving a truck driver who is carrying maple syrup.
00:06:15:21 - 00:06:43:20 Jeremy: And it was a little nod to our fans because we actually produce all this content, this wonderful, beautiful content here in Canada, out of our Spin Master entertainment studios, led by Jen Dodge. It's a very important part of pride for the company with an incredibly talented studio model that we have. It really bring these stories to life. When we actually market the products, we empower our regional marketing teams to deliver their marketing plans, bespoke whatever market they're at.
00:06:44:15 - 00:07:13:10 Jeremy: It's a very, very important thing. But when you think about a global franchise. So yes, as a franchise leader, we'll set the strategy, We'll talk about the big themes. What are the big bets, working with our toy team, our entertainment team. But when it comes down to execution, we want to empower our local marketers. We have a Canadian market leader, US market leader, all around the globe market leaders, to build their budgets, choose their media mix and update, localize their messaging to be right for their audience.
00:07:14:02 - 00:07:34:06 Jeremy: And that's a very important thing for a global marketing organization. You have to have a global vision - where are we going to the franchise and how are we going to continue to make it grow and be healthy. But you have to open up and be open-handed to allow your experts to really shine in the markets that they live and operate in.
00:07:34:22 - 00:08:00:15 Jeremy: And I think that that's what makes Paw Patrol uniquely feel, you know, it's relevant in our Canadian stores that we have. So, yes, we have big box retailers, the same as the United States, but we also have some retailers here that are very important, they're very unique to Canada. And between our sales force and our local marketing team, we want to make sure that that experience of Paw Patrol really fits that commercial space when the consumer comes in.
00:08:01:06 - 00:08:15:02 Alison: I love that you chose maple syrup as the kiss and thank you to Canadians - very appropriate. Jeremy, when you and I met previously, you mentioned launching a new franchise. So what lessons are you going to take from the phenomenal success of Paw Patrol as you launch Unicorn Academy?
00:08:16:14 - 00:08:36:16 Jeremy: Alison That's a great question. So to answer that, I have to answer in two ways. There's what will we take, the tenets, and what do we have to do differently because the world is so different now than it was ten years ago. So for Unicorn Academy, we're launching us on Netflix and we're investing in it from a company perspective to bring to life new stories
00:08:36:22 - 00:09:06:17 Jeremy: Off of a beloved book series. But we're reimagining it for modern day girls. So core to this, number one, all the way back to when I originally started with, is really understanding the consumer - girls. But what we found as we explored that was there are themes for girls that matter for this generation of girls. Friendship, bonding, having a place, the school dynamics and experience.
00:09:06:17 - 00:09:29:05 Jeremy: All of these things are very, very much top of mind and are played out in the content they consume and what they do and what they talk about. And so you say, okay, how can we bring those insights into the world of storytelling? And then you have to let the storytellers do their job. And what we learned was you've got to create attachment to the characters.
00:09:29:09 - 00:09:58:05 Jeremy: You've got to not only attach to the characters in this particular series, but each character bonds with a unicorn. But girls identify with these different archetypes, and they like that social dynamic in the challenges, and you needed to dial up the stakes a little bit more because we've learned with Paw Patrol, if you look at ten years ago to today, it's gotten a little bit more on the adventure space, making sure that we, you know, kids today want a little bit more oomph.
00:09:58:18 - 00:10:22:04 Jeremy: They get the impact of superhero movies. Think about the impact of media. So it's still very, very much targeted for preschoolers and safe. But the action is dialed up a little bit and the humour is dialed up a little bit to reflect the culture. We applied the same principles to Unicorn Academy. We upped the game on the animation. We upped the game on the music and the visual storytelling and the arcs that go with it.
00:10:22:15 - 00:10:39:23 Jeremy: And we sequenced it in a way that you've got a launch of a movie, and then the series will actually continue to play out. It's a modern approach to engaging the consumer, but again, you've got to stay on it. I think if there's one message with kids, it's whatever we're doing right now may be different from what we're doing six months from now. There'll be a core thread, a play, but we've got to continue to push ourselves to think and act and behave like children, which requires us to play ourselves.
Alison: That doesn't sound like a bad job description actually.
Jeremy: And yeah, you know, we have a lot of fun around here, so it's great.
00:10:57:17 - 00:11:26:00 Alison: Now you called out some very important themes, and as you were talking about how very different young girls are, those different ages. I know every parent of a young daughter that's listening was smiling and certainly relating. Having gone through the challenge we as a society did over the last three years, did you see any of those themes either soften or become even more important coming out of the isolation of the pandemic?
00:11:26:00 - 00:11:26:11 Jeremy: You know what, the
00:11:26:11 - 00:12:00:14 Jeremy: pandemic actually taught us a few things. If you look at the industry and you look at the styles of the industry, when everybody was hunkered down for COVID, the toy industry started to really have a rebirth. Certain segments really flourished, like boardgames. But toys overall really started to resonate because we're all home together. And I think what it did for parents in particular, and I will even say maybe one step further for dads, we brought us back in,
00:12:00:14 - 00:12:21:17 Jeremy: it brought us back into the world of play. It taught us as adults, the power of play again and how to play. And you know, what's interesting is that co-play, while still not as big as kids playing on their own, right, let's be let's be really honest. Kids playing on their own, they're going to play. But the co-play still had some stick-to-it-iveness.
00:12:22:14 - 00:12:49:12 Jeremy: Parents started to change and modify their behaviour and realize the joy it brought them to interact and play alongside their kids. Parents are worried about social emotional learning. They're worried about their kids interacting with other kids, how they catch back up on their education, how they play and have resilience and grit to get through and kind of move forward and leave, you know, the challenges of COVID
00:12:49:12 - 00:13:13:08 Jeremy: And the post-COVID world behind. They won't articulate that. And it's not maybe expressing itself all the way down in sales right now, but it's a theme that's bubbling, and they're looking for solutions and they're looking for opportunities even when they don't directly express it to help with that. And the great thing about that is, overall, the balm for that is play.
00:13:13:08 - 00:13:42:02 Jeremy: And so it sets us up again in this really unique space to say, let's talk about our role in society, let's talk about what Spin Master brings to the table, and then we will let the consumer opt into our entire portfolio and I think parents are starting to link the power of play with imagination, with problem solving, with grit, you know, with different things, with just hope and optimism, which is one of the things that parents want most for their kids right now.
00:13:42:02 - 00:14:04:12 Jeremy: So it gives me a lot of excitement, a lot of pride about what Spin Master is doing and our impact on the world here from Canada out. Yes, we are a business. Yes, we sell toys and you know, we're for profit. But the reality is we're doing good by really captivating imaginations and bringing people back to play. And we're going to keep doing that.
00:14:04:12 - 00:14:16:19 Jeremy: And we've got more things coming. You've seen some some announcements this week. We got Unicorn Academy, the Paw movie. I mean, the deck is stacked and the team is on it and we're just really, really, really excited about the road ahead.
00:14:17:02 - 00:14:44:11 Alison: That's great. Thank you, Jeremy. Now, any marketer and certainly this would be true of you, are really focused on understanding how the marketing we're doing is going to succeed, tracking and determining what will ultimately be successful and learning along the way. So you've got wonderful examples of great success with your different franchises. Can you share a bit about how you do track and determine what you hope will be successful?
00:14:44:11 - 00:15:02:22 Jeremy: I think, you know, again, I'll give you a frame of reference for this. If you think about my career in the different places I have been, I'm a nontraditional brand marketer that I've gone through many different verticals, whether it's entertainment, CPG, automotive, fitness, and here back to toy, which is the love of my life. For those marketers that are listening,
00:15:02:23 - 00:15:30:10 Jeremy: when you think about traditional consumer packaged goods, CPG, toy is a little different from that. CPG, we are trained on how to manage a business, soup to nuts. Look at the PNL, understand your distribution, your velocity, the key buy, windows, a season out. Fill the blank. You can hear me go down it. You know and you manage a portfolio and a product line and you might have ten SKUs of one set, five SKUs of another flavour, whatever that may be.
00:15:30:17 - 00:15:57:10 Jeremy: But overall, you're managing that on a multi-annual basis with some news and innovation spiking the water. Within Spin Master, especially with our DNA as innovators, we are always bringing news to market and our lines reset every year, every season, so it creates a different dynamic that brings us closer to fashion in a way, retail in a way, than it does in a consumer packaged goods type of way.
00:15:57:10 - 00:16:17:05 Jeremy: So yes, we're applying brand management and franchise management principles to what we're doing, but we've got to stay nimble at that. So, big set up for your very simple question. What that means is that we have to actually be very, very much on the pulse of where the consumer is going, and we do that through the insights that I talked about.
00:16:17:15 - 00:16:35:11 Jeremy: We do that through the expertise of the talented men and women who lead the company, veterans of the toy industry, veterans of the entertainment industry and the digital gains industry. They know this space. They love it, and they have been experts at it for a long time. But they challenge, we challenge ourselves to use current data to get ahead of it.
00:16:36:00 - 00:16:56:17 Jeremy: Then we hunker down. And what I mean by that is - best laid plans. You called it out a little bit earlier in the podcast. We can do the best we can do and have all the data. But when it comes to kids, you just don't now. So you've got to be ready to move as fast as they and Q4 is all about the holidays.
00:16:57:02 - 00:17:20:16 Jeremy: This is it. This is our Super Bowl, this game time, right? And so what we do is we create a warrior across company and we look at every week all of our sales our retail performance, consumer sentiment, marketing performance, the lift that we're getting, how we're driving pull through, what's hot, what's not. And we have to make decisions on how we actually play the portfolio.
00:17:20:16 - 00:17:39:07 Jeremy: And again, being a global company, it's not a one size fits all because there are things that in Europe are working very well right now and things that are here are not working as well. And you have to really localize that going back to the empowerment of our teams, to make the right business decisions in the markets in which we operate.
00:17:39:07 - 00:17:51:04 Jeremy: So very, very complicated high seasonality, you have to be very agile and you have to not be precious because we have to take all those signals into account to make the right decisions.
00:17:51:17 - 00:18:11:11 Alison: So I love that you tell marketers not to be precious and get so caught up in what we thought was going to work. And agility is mission critical, especially as you're in the quarter that will define success in many ways for the year for you. You're also a global organization and with some pretty significant interdependencies with your retail partners and others.
00:18:11:19 - 00:18:16:01 Alison: So I'd love to hear how you're able to be as agile as you're able to be.
00:18:16:08 - 00:18:57:05 Jeremy: The agility for us is Spin Master number one is part of our DNA. I think we are an entrepreneurial company. We have been an entrepreneurial company since founders were here, including the DNA that we have with our CEO and the executive team that's here with me. Number one, that's a mindset. So that helps us be agile. I think number two, it's continuing to challenge ourselves as we continue to grow and expand as a public and global organization on how to play that role, because this is the scale we're at right now, but maintain the agility and the empowerment that we need in the local markets to deliver the business results and driving the accountability there too.
00:18:57:22 - 00:19:19:09 Alison: That's outstanding advice and the clarity of understanding, everyone understanding the mission and the mandate and then being able to delegate that autonomy and accountability to the different teams is such a powerful combination. Now, Jeremy, as you're developing new products, to what degree are you developing a product specifically for a girl or a boy?
00:19:19:19 - 00:19:40:22 Jeremy: So first and foremost, we look for the play experience and we look for the properties or brands that would actually bring that to life. In the past, historically in the industry, it has been very gender split and traditionally it will land on gender lines. But we challenge ourselves to think about play capital P play. That's the first thing that leads us out.
00:19:41:13 - 00:19:53:17 Jeremy: And when we do it that way, it really allows us to focus on the experience and what's best. And does that take on something that skews gender One way or another? The consumer will lead us there and we will follow.
00:19:55:01 - 00:20:15:19 Alison: Now, you mentioned earlier we're in the crucial Q4 holiday sales period. That's certainly crucial for many retailers and absolutely mission critical for the toy industry. We're also facing certainly a more challenging economy. So can you share some of the trends that you're seeing and how spin Masters adopting this year's Q4 approach to make the most of the holiday buying season?
00:20:15:19 - 00:20:48:06 Jeremy: So I think, you know, number one, as I spoke about previously, we are really focused on being together and being super aligned real time on the performance in the market through our processes, in our war rooms and what we do so that we can enable ourselves to work discussions and make quick decision. But when we look at the consumer and how we planned the back half of this year versus previous years coming out of COVID, there was from an industry perspective, a demand that kind of pushed the whole industry out.
00:20:48:23 - 00:21:21:23 Jeremy: There is also not just for toy, but across the world. I've heard about you remember the inventory supply issues and how that kind of all played out. We don't have those factors anymore, right. But also during COVID because of what was happening in the different shutdowns around the world, there wasn't a lot of news across the industry. And the toy category mature is like fashion news drives, sales and what we're very excited about coming into this year and what we planned for is we've got some great innovation that we're bringing to market across all of our line.
00:21:22:19 - 00:21:40:06 Jeremy: We are looking at how we actually refresh the line and bring this news and excitement to the category, right? So we've got that going for us. We've looked at the price point. We want to make sure that we've got good price thinking that we're in line with where the consumer's going as the economy kind of rattles and as consumer confidence around the kind of shakes.
00:21:41:05 - 00:22:07:09 Jeremy: But the other thing that I would say is very interesting to dynamics across categories, with the exception maybe of one beauty, all categories or maybe disposable income in retail right now are a little challenged. That doesn't mean Christmas isn't going to count parents and shoppers or shopping behavior perspective or timing it a little closer to the holidays. We've seen this happen historically in recessions.
00:22:07:09 - 00:22:30:03 Jeremy: We've seen this happen historically over previous years. So what that means for us is we with our retailers, have to create confidence around those key shopping moments. So it creates a very interesting dynamic that's that's unsettling for sure. But something that we can plan for and try to manage as best we can. The last thing I would say, yes, I told you, there are a couple things are all different.
00:22:30:16 - 00:22:56:20 Jeremy: Yes, parents pocketbooks are challenged and they're going to think more carefully and more considered about what their children want. But there's also a secret weapon of the holidays. I've said it. I'll say it again. Grandparents will say Christmas because their relationship grew. COVID coming out of this, and especially this generation of parents, they're closer to their parents and the role of grandparents is taking an interesting turn.
00:22:56:21 - 00:23:41:12 Jeremy: And these consumers, the grandparents, are not impacted from a discretionary income and spend perspective the same as grandparents, and they are more likely to spend on their kids and their grandkids than previous generations and spend more. So if you think about that, it created an interesting opportunity for us that we've never done before at scale, and we have market by market candidate included U.S. all around the world, targeted campaigns not only to parents but also to grandparents around the holidays to make sure that they understand the incredible toys that we offer and encourage them to put one of those or two of those into their basket as they choose their list for the holidays.
00:23:41:12 - 00:23:48:19 Alison: Thanks, Jeremy. That brings a whole new sentiment to Senior Power. And I'll definitely be hugging grandparents, as I'm sure many retailers will this quarter.
00:23:49:12 - 00:23:52:14 Jeremy: Grandparents will say Christmas. It's going to be phenomenal.
00:23:54:03 - 00:24:12:12 Alison: The journey. I had absolutely no doubt that toy marketing was going to be a fascinating conversation. And you shared great advice that's relevant to marketers across many different sectors. So I thank you very much for that. I would love to end by having you share a parting thought or advice that you have for our listeners.
00:24:12:12 - 00:24:34:19 Jeremy: Yeah, I think that some of the best advice I ever received was get yourself as close to the consumer as you possibly and as you continue to grow in your career as a marketer and as an executive, It's very easy to get isolated and get out of touch with the very men and women that you want to create.
00:24:34:19 - 00:25:04:21 Jeremy: Incredible experiences, foreign trips, man lit the brand and get out there and do it. When I was at PepsiCo, although as a cook drinker before I drink Pepsi and I went and understood the retail environment and what was going on there. And yes, I went to the Paw Patrol mirror, not the big corporate premier. I took it, sat in a theater in the back row with me and my chief people officer, and we just watched and listened and laughed and saw what kids laughed at and slapped out and just stayed curious.
00:25:05:10 - 00:25:27:00 Jeremy: So to stay alive as a marketer today, how to get as close to the consumer as Yeah, you got to be passionate about that. And the last thing within that, the undercurrent curiosity, you got to build that yourself. You got to be curious about the why and the 2 to 3 level down wise about why people do what they do.
00:25:27:10 - 00:25:51:23 Jeremy: You know, these types of questions help you understand how to really understand it and really drive the domain. And in the preference of your product is that's what it is, right? You want to build brand. We want to build what we want to build protection from the competition. We want to build demand. We want to drive growth. And if you don't understand the consumer and you're not close to them, just reading the data, what's on the page is not going to get you there.
00:25:52:01 - 00:25:53:00 Jeremy: You got to go with it.
00:25:53:17 - 00:26:19:02 Alison: Absolutely outstanding advice on that. My greatest insights when I've been in marketing and CMO roles was what I learned unexpectedly by walking a store floor, calling in, patching into a call center and at firsthand customer learning and experience is absolutely invaluable. So tremendous words of wisdom With that Jeremy, I want to thank you again. I know, especially in your busiest quarter, I really appreciate you taking the time for this conversation.
00:26:19:02 - 00:26:22:17 Alison: And I know our listeners join me in thanking you for the great advice you share.
00:26:24:08 - 00:26:33:20 Jeremy: Thank you, Alison. I really appreciate the time and enjoyed our conversation and wishing it right out there as it comes. Have a happy holiday and stay safe.
00:26:34:05 - 00:26:36:18 Alison: Thanks, Jeremy.
00:26:39:01 - 00:26:53:13 Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit thecma.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.
EP5 - AI-Powered Creativity with Scott Pinkney
31 Oct 2023
00:24:55
Join the CEO of CMA, Alison Simpson, as she teams up with Scott Pinkney, the SVP and Executive Creative Director at Publicis Hawkeye Canada, for an exhilarating dive into generative AI's impact on the creative process.
0000:02:16 - 00:00:21:00
Speaker 1
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.
00:00:22:20 - 00:00:42:27
Alison:
Today on CMA Connect, we're talking about AI from a creative angle. Every week brings many new AI tools, including many that are really focused on creative on production. So it's not all that surprising that marketers are increasingly looking to their agency partners and creative teams to understand both the benefits and some of the challenges and most importantly, how best to leverage AI.
00:00:43:28 - 00:01:03:10
Alison:
So today I'm joined by Scott Pinkney, a leading creative strategist, brand ambassador and relationship marketer. Scott's held senior creative roles in New York, the UK and Toronto. He's the SVP and executive creative director at Publicis Hawkeye Canada, which is a customer engagement agency. Thanks so much for joining us on CMA Connect today, Scott.
00:01:04:21 - 00:01:18:00
Scott:
Thank you, Alison. Excited to be here. It's an incredible topic, it's an exciting topic. It's one that's having a lot of discussions both in the boardrooms and, as you can imagine, in the creative departments of a lot of agencies.
00:01:18:17 - 00:01:35:22
Alison:
Absolutely. Well, you're definitely known as a creative powerhouse in the marketing profession. And you're also a very much an early adopter of new approaches and technological tools. So can you share with us a bit about when and how your team began using AI tools and how your use of them may have evolved or expanded?
00:01:36:29 - 00:01:57:11
Scott:
Yeah, definitely. Well, first of all, I think it's important to know that I'm not a technical guy. I do consider myself an early adopter because when new technology comes, I can usually see it pretty clearly. I can see the opportunities and I get really excited. The beautiful thing is I have all those technical minds back at the agency and those data gurus who just really know how to make it happen.
00:01:57:11 - 00:02:16:13
Scott:
So I get excited. I'm like, Oh, we can do this, we can do that. I'm like, Well, how do we do it? So definitely excited about what's happening in the world of AI. I think we all know that it's here. It's going to change the way we do everything. It is impacting every aspect of our lives, both at home and also from a business standpoint.
00:02:16:25 - 00:02:29:29
Scott:
But interesting enough, what really excites me as a creative person is what I call and I think we all call the game changer, which is really kind of generative AI And really how it's being integrated into the creative process, which is pretty thrilling.
00:02:30:18 - 00:02:45:20
Alison:
That's such a great point, generative AI, as we're hearing so much about that now and it's fairly new, but itself has been around for a very long time. So why don't we take a quick pause and have you share the different types of AI? Because I know you've been an early adopter, long before generative AI as well.
00:02:46:18 - 00:03:06:01
Scott:
Well, thank you very much. And I think it is really important if you think about, you know, AI and machine learning has really been part of our lives for years, right? When you're shopping online, using Google Maps, searching the Internet on your phone, even ordering food, right. Like AI is always working behind the scenes. And it's been around for generations. You know, as I mentioned then, you know, enter generative AI, right?
00:03:06:01 - 00:03:25:22
Scott:
And wow, that's what's really, really amazing. And interesting enough, I did a presentation when they came back from Cannes, judging the creative data category, and I thought it was really important to kind of level set with my team. So I'll kind of do a really kind of really quick, quick recap. Funny. Nope. I thought, you know, I'm going to ask ChatGPT to give me the definition and the first definition.
00:03:25:22 - 00:03:49:23
Scott:
I had no idea what it was talking about. So I said, You know what? Give me the definition. But as if you're talking to a grade school student and now this is what I got back, and I thought it was really, really important and clarified the differences. So let's talk first about artificial intelligence. And basically what it said is AI is like giving superpowers to a robot so that it can think, learn and solve problems almost like humans do.
00:03:50:07 - 00:04:11:18
Scott:
This robot can talk like you, understand pictures and even make decisions. That's why it's been around for a long time. Then you move into machine learning. This was a definition for machine learning. So machine learning is a special skill we teach to the robot. Instead of telling exactly what to do, we show lots of examples and let it figure things out on its own.
00:04:12:07 - 00:04:31:02
Scott:
It's like teaching a dog new tricks by showing it how to do that. So think about machine learning, especially in my space of 1 to 1 relationship marketing, trigger based marketing. If the consumer, you know, if then else, if the consumer does this, serve up this, that's what machine learning is. You know again as you mentioned, thank you very much, we are a center of excellence for CRM.
00:04:31:09 - 00:04:55:21
Scott:
So that's been kind of part of our lives for a long time, kind of doing the hard work behind the scenes. So when you think about platforms like Salesforce and Braze, those learnings have already been built in. But now the big difference is, is generative AI and that's really where it kind of gets exciting because we're now seeing that come not only into play in the platforms that we're using to communicate with consumers, but even the creative process itself.
00:04:55:21 - 00:05:13:25
Scott:
So from a general AI sampling, and if we just pivot there for a minute, it's here. And, you know, it's a bit scary for creatives, you know, you know, whether you like it or not, it's going to impact how we work, how we communicate. So, you know, finding the right balance between humans and robots is going to be our challenge.
00:05:13:25 - 00:05:39:06
Scott:
And we are already bringing it into our lives, you know, ChatGPT, Dolly, Midjourney. These are all early out the gate and communicators and creators are already using it and the stuff they are creating is absolutely amazing. You know, I heard a speaker at Cannes and he said that science fiction is now reality. So, you know, you think about those old science fiction movies and you're like, how's that ever going to happen?
00:05:39:15 - 00:06:05:11
Scott:
Well, generative AI is now allowing whatever we can think of, can now be created. So we're bringing it in to the agency. We're using it in different areas. I mean, and there is also this this wonderful thought around creative interplay, right? The magic of the interplay between AI and human creativity. And again, you know, for a lot of creatives, this is challenging.
00:06:05:11 - 00:06:34:10
Scott:
And it's there's this feeling that I'm losing my ability to be creative. It's writing copy, it's generating imagery. And that is kind of a daunting thought. But the reality is, if we can find the way to really marry true creativity with what technology can do, great ideas are being invented and coming off of Cannes. We'll talk about that a bit later I hope, is wow, the work being done is like you can think it, you can now create it.
00:06:34:10 - 00:06:49:28
Alison:
And you're so right in calling out that it is daunting for creatives, for marketers, for business people overall. So how have you gotten comfortable with that and helped your team get comfortable with seeing that opportunity and getting over some of the intimidation and daunting nature of it?
00:06:51:15 - 00:07:17:09
Scott:
It's still ongoing. You know, different conversations with different individuals. There's actually a really interesting quote, i just wanted to share it because I loved it when I heard it. And the one thing I have been doing. As I mentioned, I'm not a technology guy, but I am reading every article I can around AI and different perspectives, so that I can really inspire my team. You know, as a creative lead, my job is to inspire, is to inspire my teams to do better thinking, to work with the strategy teams.
00:07:17:22 - 00:07:33:06
Scott:
And even when new tools like this come in is how do we best use it and implement it? So this quote was great because I heard it and it's something that I'm trying to instill with my creatives, which is, it was by, I'm not sure I'm pronouncing his name right but it was James Magda. And he was talking about how AI and creativity kind of come together.
00:07:33:06 - 00:07:53:08
Scott:
And he said creative people thrive in times of change. They're often the first to try new things, reinvent the rules, push the boundaries and expand possibilities for everyone. Well, that's kind of the positive side. But then he went on to say to anyone who is curious but cautious, which I think a lot of people are, you've just got to get started.
00:07:53:13 - 00:08:17:21
Scott:
And that's what I keep telling everybody, you have to play with the tools, get in there, play around with Midjourney, get into ChatGPT, in fact just start using it in your daily life. How to put together a meal for a family, like start using it in ways where you don't think it oversteps into true creativity that we put in front of clients, but that it aids us in creative development.
00:08:18:13 - 00:08:32:08
Alison:
That's great advice, Scott. Thank you. Now, AI can certainly help marketing teams leverage data in real time and improve efficiencies and the results of marketing operations. Are you using it to analyze your own data or customer interactions that then feed the AI engine?
00:08:33:15 - 00:08:52:24
Scott:
Yeah, I mean, the personal answer is absolutely. I mean, if you think about CRM, it's always about creating, you know, meaningful relationships with consumers, right time, right message to kind of, you know, drive the desired action. We've always relied on data. Data is our secret weapon. It's in our DNA. But to be successful, it's always about crunching data.
00:08:53:14 - 00:09:17:18
Scott:
It's always about analyzing data. It's always about getting the right data to the right place at the right time. So AI is helping us do that in a much faster away. You know, as we talked about a bit earlier, machine learning and traditional AI was already built in some of the platforms we're using. But the speed in which we're able to get insights, the speed in which we're able to analyze data and put it into action, that's what's really exciting.
00:09:17:28 - 00:09:37:10
Scott:
And I'm sure you've all heard the new phrase generative CRM, right? It's that new, you know, it's promising to revolutionize how we interact and engage with consumers. Right. Its ability to generate content in real time. Right. A consumer does a particular thing. They say a particular thing about a particular product. And then we're used to ads being served up when we look it up.
00:09:37:10 - 00:09:56:12
Scott:
And now it's going a bit further than that. It's talking to you about their product, it's responding to queries you made. Chatbot, right, they're going to get more sophisticated. So we're starting to leverage all of these different tools and across different clients where as you can imagine, different clients are at different stages of their kind of data maturity.
00:09:56:12 - 00:10:16:01
Scott:
So the ones that are really advanced, we're really activating it right away. For some of the newer clients who are investigating because again, this happened so fast, like the difference between when I was in Cannes in May, where every, every conversation started with, oh my goodness, are we going to lose our jobs? Here we now are in October and we are moving, we are adopting it.
00:10:16:01 - 00:10:34:22
Scott:
We are bringing it into play. And as they mentioned, it's it's part of discovery. It's part of research. It's part of targeting, it's part of measuring, it's part of media buying, it's coming in to the creative product, you know, how do we, how do we be more efficient with our writing pool? When does it make sense to lean on ChatGPT?
00:10:35:12 - 00:10:56:26
Scott:
When does it make sense to lean 100% on a human? So we're solving those things right now. We have a lot of use cases going on and we've been seeing a lot of success. But, you know, it's always you know, it's it's not flawless. Like we know, you know, there's there's a lot of brands that have made bad mistakes using generative AI that has backfired.
00:10:56:26 - 00:11:14:11
Scott:
So we need to be very cautious and we need to continue to be cautious and we need to test, learn and optimize. So I feel like we're still in the early days and we know that technology is only going to get more advanced. So, you know, we got to jump on that train because it's left the station and we're going to see where it takes us.
00:11:15:04 - 00:11:36:27
Alison:
And a willingness to experiment and know that some mistakes are going to happen. Life is not flawless, so it makes sense that something that's moving as quickly as generative AI the mistakes can happen at that faster speed as well. So just making sure that you're being, taking measured rest wherever possible and then learning as we go, that's we're all figuring out together in many ways.
00:11:37:12 - 00:11:51:10
Alison:
Now, you mentioned Cannes, you had a great time judging there and I'm sure you were exposed to AI infused work. Are there examples that we should all be looking to coming out of the judging at Cannes that really resonated for you?
00:11:52:08 - 00:12:11:29
Scott:
You know, that was such an amazing experience. That's my second time judging, actually, my second time at Cannes. And the first time was actually was the first year they did the Direct category, which was interesting. You know, fast forward now to 2023, I'm in the creative data category and the awarding jury and it was amazing. I think it was certainly eye opening.
00:12:11:29 - 00:12:31:17
Scott:
Like I knew that I was going to go in there and see, you know, incredible cases from the round the world using data. What I didn't expect is over 50% of the cases had machine learning and AI. Well, there's two cases that I definitely want to share with you, and I love the fact that you used the word infused.
00:12:31:20 - 00:13:01:22
Scott:
And that was certainly no exaggeration. It was literally infused in and brought to life. A lot of the work that was awarded that we fell in love with, that used machine learning, it amplified the idea. It allowed the brand to bring the idea to life. It wasn't the idea. Ideas are still formed by human thinking and ingenuity and understanding of the brand, and understanding of humans.
00:13:01:22 - 00:13:19:06
Scott:
But it supercharged the creative team and the agency to be able to deliver it. And the first one was the Stella Artois probability that actually was the Grand Prix for creative data. That was an easy one. It was a no brainer. It was created by Gut Buenos Aires and the campaign was absolutely amazing. And I'll talk a bit about kind of what the idea was and then kind of how they used the data and were able to pull it all together.
00:13:19:23 - 00:13:50:04
Scott:
So, you know, one of the things is, Stella Artois, long long history. Based on their history and understanding of the brand, they concluded that there's a probability that the beer portrayed in historical art pieces throughout Europe like Manet, Van Gogh could have been a Stella Artois. Love that idea. So brilliant. So what they did was they superimposed on top of these beautiful fine art paintings, a percentage indicating the probability that the people in the picture were actually drinking Stella Artois.
00:13:50:19 - 00:14:14:02
Scott:
So how do they use it? How did they use AI and machine learning? The data points they used to create this campaign was amazing. And it was all based on an algorithm that analyzed the year the artwork was painted, its geographical location, the shape of the glass, which was just incredible that was being used. Even the color of the liquid inside the glass and then the distance between the artists and the original brewery.
00:14:14:09 - 00:14:34:16
Scott:
This was an integrated campaign. They pulled it together in such a beautiful way. The percentages of probability were from like 22% to 70. They were never 100. They didn't claim it, but it was always, Hey, it's a probability. Doesn't matter. They owned it. But what a great example of that idea wasn't generated by AI. It was powered by AI. It made it possible.
00:14:35:00 - 00:15:01:23
Scott:
Could they have pulled this off on their own? Probably, but it would have taken crazy amounts of time and resources to do what AI was able to do. So that was the first campaign that we fell in love with. I'm going to show you another Grand Prix, share with you another Grand Prix, which was in the creative effects, this was also using generative AI and you know in such a unique and special way with Shah Rukh Khan.
00:15:02:01 - 00:15:23:04
Scott:
The ad was done by Cadbury by Ogilvy. And I love the problem and they did have a real problem, right, coming off the pandemic. It was really crippling to the economy. But who was really feeling it was small businesses. So in this case, big brands, you know, obviously way deeper pockets. They were equipped to fight back. But the local businesses, small stores, they didn't have the luxury.
00:15:23:21 - 00:15:51:22
Scott:
So they use Shah Rukh Khan, who is the biggest Bollywood star. And he actually became the brand ambassador for thousands of small local neighborhood stores. Well how did they do it? Enter generative AI. They actually created a hyper personalized digital avatar, of Shah Rukh Khan, by regenerating his face, which is data, his voice which is data and would replace the store names in every single ad. Hyper data driven personalization.
00:15:51:22 - 00:16:12:15
Scott:
So you can imagine you're now a small store owner and Shah Rukh Khan is selling it. He becomes the ambassador for your ad and they even took it further. They actually knew they couldn't do it for every store. So they created a platform that allowed small business owners to go in and change and put their names in there and have Shah Rukh Khan basically promote their store.
00:16:12:15 - 00:16:30:24
Scott:
We thought it was obviously brilliant, but AI, the generative AI, oh my goodness, it was flawless. It was beautiful. It was fun, it was engaging. And again, another great example of an amazing idea powered by AI, generative AI, but not created by generative AI.
00:16:31:24 - 00:16:49:06
Alison:
Those are both such powerful examples and to your point, they come out of an amazing idea generated by a human and then they're scaled and brought to life with a speed and a beauty that would be hard to replicate without the technology. So thank you for sharing. Those are both terrific examples.
00:16:49:23 - 00:17:08:09
Scott:
You know, I came back and I did a show and tell and I showed about eight or nine different campaigns because you need to see the possibilities, because the possibilities are very different and very unique. And until you really look at the work and understand it and actually ask yourself, how do they make that? That's a great exercise we're doing.
00:17:09:00 - 00:17:23:15
Scott:
Look at these campaigns and ask yourself, if we were doing that, how would we as an agency create that? Because you never see totally behind the curtain. Once you do that, it starts to unearth other opportunities that you can bring to your different brands.
00:17:24:10 - 00:17:48:10
Alison:
Great point. When you think about earlier conversation around it can be quite daunting, but when you look at generative AI as an enabler, if a creative team comes up with a spectacular idea that we simply cannot afford, now generative I might make it feasible and affordable, so it can absolutely can go from being daunting to quite inspiring when it's viewed as a tool in those ways.
00:17:49:09 - 00:18:11:22
Scott:
And Alison, that is such a great word, enabler, and that's one of the things I've been doing. I'm trying to find like enabler. You know, I heard the phrase co-pilot, right? Your partner, you know, your partner to help you get unstuck. You see it that way, then you start focusing on, wow, what can I do? Yeah, that's when it gets exciting for creatives.
00:18:12:12 - 00:18:14:01
Scott:
Not what am I not doing?
00:18:15:11 - 00:18:23:19
Alison:
So building on that, I'd love to hear from your vantage point, what excites you the most about the continued development of AI?
00:18:23:19 - 00:18:39:08
Scott:
You know, listen, there's no question that AI is going to have a huge impact on our lives. I mentioned this earlier. It's not only at home but at work. And because we're trying to bring those two worlds together, we need to really think about how it's going to impact us everywhere and it's only going to increase.
00:18:39:13 - 00:19:02:19
Scott:
Like we know the technology there's, you know, there's issues, right?
We know there's massive bias with AI. We know that it's only trained on the data that's out there. We know that, unfortunately, there's a lot of bad data out there. There's a lot of back thinking and viewpoints. So we have to be very cautious, but you need to be excited about it, because, you know, it was funny,
00:19:02:19 - 00:19:22:10
Scott:
I was, you know, Googling around, you know, what other innovation had the same impact as AI and there's not really anything. The computer was the closest, and listen, without giving you how long,I mean, I've been in the business for 35 years, but I was here before there were computers. I remember when that box came on my desk and I was like, What do I do with this?
00:19:22:10 - 00:19:39:03
Scott:
Because I love being hands on. I love to open up a Pantone book and lay out the chips, and arriving at the press, and you had no idea what it was going to look like until you got there. So you had to really use your brain and your creativity to be able to visualize something. Then the computer came and now I could play with colors.
00:19:39:03 - 00:19:58:02
Scott:
I can see it in print going to the printers, like, well, it's just like, you know, the proof I have. So I think with this new technology, you have to really try to look forward and go, I can create anything I want now. Like, I can bring any idea I have to life. Again, you need the right people.
00:19:58:02 - 00:20:12:20
Scott:
That's a big one having you know, you have the right technology. You have to have the right people. You have to have the right operations. You have to figure out how to get into your workflow. So, you know, we're still sorting all that stuff. But as we've seen, as we also look at the work from Cannes, it's happening, right?
00:20:13:08 - 00:20:37:14
Scott:
But again, the ideas are always at the core of true creativity and nobody excels better at that than humans. So, you know, we need these tools. They can definitely supercharge everything that we're doing. And, you know, we need to be willing to experiment, you know, new approaches of every part of the workflow. We just have to keep educating and we have to keep talking about it and we need to keep sharing the work.
00:20:37:24 - 00:20:42:12
Scott:
But more importantly, we just need to get in that sandbox and start playing around.
00:20:43:05 - 00:20:56:18
Alison:
You're so right. And we talked earlier about the risks. So any new change comes with inherent risks as well and concerns. So I'd love to hear what concerns you the most about the continued development of AI.
00:20:58:13 - 00:21:32:10
Scott:
You know, it's interesting, one of the things, you know, we always talked about this phrase data wins arguments. The problem now is data only wins arguments if it's the right data and that's the piece that is probably, is the most concerning. You know, you hear everyone talking about AI is going to end... there's a lot of negative conversations, and unfortunately, the bad side of humanity of what AI can do if in the wrong hands.
00:21:32:22 - 00:22:21:21
Scott:
So as brands, as marketers, our job is to make sure that we're always putting truth in front of our consumers, to use data in the right way. So why we have privacy, you know, why we have regulations, so we're going to have to just make sure that we always do our homework. I think there was you know, AI gone wrong examples right now, brands that, ooh, they just got something wrong so we just have to make sure that we are truly recognizing that it's still just a robot, and it has flaws.So we as humans, as creators, as strategists, have to really, really do our due diligence to make sure that the data is accurate and truthful and honest.
00:22:23:09 - 00:22:35:03
Alison:
And the technology also has a bias because it's the data it's drawing from. So that's another area that we as marketers really need to pay attention and be sensitive to as well.
00:22:35:22 - 00:22:56:07
Scott:
Yeah, for sure. There's a couple of case studies at Cannes where they were trying to change the internet where it was blatantly wrong, right? And so there's a lot of retraining going on where we're trying to upload all the correct information to try to change the Internet. But as much as we're trying to change the Internet, there's always bad stuff going in.
00:22:56:19 - 00:23:14:13
Scott:
So again, that goes back to checks and balances, like everything we do right. We still make mistakes as marketers with stuff. And yeah, we got work to do, work to do. But it's exciting. It's, it's, it's a really interesting time to be in, you know, advertising and marketing right now. It's only going to get more exciting, and more confusing.
00:23:15:09 - 00:23:23:20
Alison:
I completely agree with you. Now, Scott, thank you so much for all your insights. Before I let you go today, though, I'd love you to leave our listeners with one final thought.
00:23:24:17 - 00:23:38:22
Scott:
So going back to this notion of, just get in the sandbox, start playing with the tools they are available, many are free. I'm sure your organization is already implementing into your work stream. Just start playing.
00:23:39:06 - 00:23:48:03
Alison:
Very, very wise words, Scott. Thank you so much. It's been a great discussion. I know our listeners have learned a lot from your experience and I hope you have a great rest of your day.
00:23:48:18 - 00:23:50:04
Scott:
You, too, Alison. Always a pleasure.
00:23:51:15 - 00:24:17:07
Alison:
We're just really starting to understand the potential and some of the challenges with generative AI and I'm absolutely excited for how the marketing profession will learn and progress together. And I know you share that enthusiasm. On that note, the CMA has some really terrific generative AI resources that marketers can benefit from that compliment this podcast. We offer a number of thought leadership articles on a wide range of AI topics on our Web site, and we've also launched a new series from our Industry AI Working Group.
00:24:18:01 - 00:24:39:00
Alison:
Plus, we've introduced a number of new AI training courses that are designed for marketers at all different career stages, and they're really helpful ways to understand how AI can make you a better and stronger marketer. So I'm certainly looking forward to all the ways that the CMA will help and to partner with our profession on the generative AI journey.
00:24:39:00 - 00:24:53:13
Speaker 1
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought, leadership, news and industry trends.
EP4 - Gaining Credibility in the C-Suite with Luxy Thuraisingam
17 Oct 2023
00:14:18
Alison Simpson, CEO of CMA, welcomes Luxy Thuraisingam, Vice President, Global SMB & Partner Marketing at Cisco, to discuss the CMO's growing influence and gaining credibility in the C-Suite.
00:00:02:10 - 00:00:42:24
Welcome to CME Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.
Alison:
The role of the CMO has evolved vastly, dramatically and continues to both expand and at times contract. So while some CMO's have a mandate covering everything from product development, customer experience, data analytics and insights to marketing communications and PNL responsibilities, others are more singularly focused on marketing communications.
00:00:43:21 - 00:01:11:16
Alison:
Marketing professionals worked really hard to earn a seat at the C-suite table to take accountability for driving business results and for ownership of the four Ps and an end to end consumer experience. Today's aspiring marketers and future CMO's really want to learn how to gain credibility with the right stakeholders. They want to learn that from marketing pros for excelling at it, which is why I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined today by Luxy Thuraisingam, who's vice president, Global SMB and partner marketing for Cisco.
00:01:12:02 - 00:01:31:04
Alison:
Luxy, thanks so much for joining us on CMA Connect today.
Luxy:
Oh, Alison, it's such a privilege to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Alison:
Now, it's not really that long ago where the scope of the CMO in many organizations was quite narrow. So building on my opening remarks, I'd really love to hear your observations on how the roles expanded and where the CMO now has influence.
00:01:31:19 - 00:01:59:19
Luxy:
Firstly, this is such a meaty topic and I can't wait for us to unpack it. And you're right, it wasn't that long ago, right, that CMO's were mostly actually brought in to drive and execute on brand and communication strategy. And today, in an, actually an interesting study that was published by Boathouse, what I love is CEOs, CEOs actually believe that the main role of the CMO is to grow the business.
00:02:00:06 - 00:02:25:02
Luxy:
But in fact, 86% of CEOs believe that that CMO can influence the C-suite. So to your point, the scope has increased. But here's why. Right? Because and you know this, CMO's need to be fierce advocates of the voice of the customer. We and their influencing strategic and long term decisions, everything from product design to go to market to innovation, across the organization, by the way.
00:02:25:15 - 00:02:53:15
Luxy:
Oh, and by the way, they also need to be able to connect marketing performance with organizational performance, including profit and loss. They have to drive diversity in thinking across the organization and so that the mission and everything the organization does is representative of the global population. And that's just the tip of the iceberg because in addition to all of this, so many CMO's are also accountable to co-owning revenue with the profiliation of eCommerce routes, especially in B.C. at companies.
00:02:53:16 - 00:03:15:18
Luxy:
So yeah, you're right, it's increased a little bit, the scope.
Alison:
Just a little bit. So the evolution of marketing organizations is another really rich territory for discussion and clearly has an impact on CMOs marketing teams and the talent that we need today. So based on your own journey, I'd love you to share how you feel about how marketing organizations are different today than they were say, even five years ago.
00:03:15:19 - 00:03:39:03
Alison:
And what new skills are you looking for?
Luxy:
I always bring the marketing profession back to the customer and the reality is our customer's habits are completely different from ten, five, I mean, even two years ago, right? Our customer habits have changed and evolved. And so when you think about marketing being in the forefront of meeting the customer where they are, then absolutely.
00:03:39:03 - 00:03:58:22
Luxy:
You know, absolutely. What was great today is not going to be great tomorrow. And that actually means that marketers and the makeup of a marketing organization has to evolve. And a study by LinkedIn said 50% of the marketing jobs that are being posted are in the digital and media space. Now, to be honest, that's probably not that surprising.
00:03:59:00 - 00:04:25:14
Luxy:
But in addition to that, and to the point on my own experience, my own teams, marketing teams now also include analysts, data scientists, martech gurus, working hand-in-hand with creative directors and copywriters. And so really, again, if we bring it back to the customer in order to forge these new paths to the customer and deliver the business impacts, our organizations are looking for us to do,
00:04:26:04 - 00:04:56:12
Luxy:
Marketing teams, in my opinion, are made up of scientists and storytellers.
Alison:
It's a great way to say it. And in many ways, when I think about the super power of CMO of marketers, it really is being the voice of customers and understanding them in ways that their colleagues across the business truly can't. And using that information and knowledge to inform and help our colleagues across all areas of the business, build new products, redesign their approach in a way that really will the customer first and foremost.
00:04:56:23 - 00:05:15:18
Luxy:
Well said. Absolutely.
Alison:
Now, one of the topics you talked about and touched on was the importance of data. And it's also often the fuel for everything that we do. But how we need to be using data has really changed. So I'd love to hear some examples of how you're using data to demonstrate how marketing is driving results for Cisco.
00:05:16:02 - 00:05:39:04
Luxy:
The utilization of data is also not new, right? You and I have been in this industry, this practice for a very long time. But what it's to your point on, how has the utilization of data changed? And to me, it's no longer about just using data to drive strategy or build a dashboard or even optimizing our marketing and activations and spend.
00:05:39:22 - 00:06:04:13
Luxy:
That's just a given. Every organization should be doing that. To me, and what I'm seeing is it's about using data and insights that drive tangible and demonstrable business results. It's about using data to show the power of marketing when done right. And so I'll give you a case study that we actually showcased on Main page at a recent Global Cisco sales rally.
00:06:05:07 - 00:06:33:12
Luxy:
We celebrated that Cisco sales teams closed a multi, multimillion dollar deal with a significant global brand. And what I loved is in that moment of celebration, the marketing organization was celebrated with sales. And the reason we were celebrated is we were able to demonstrate that as our amazing sales leaders are doing what they're incredibly good at behind the scenes,
00:06:34:06 - 00:07:09:22
Luxy:
marketing actually had 24,000, 24,000 touchpoints with this organization, this brand. We had almost over a hundred employees of varying personas from C-suite to I.T, engaging with marketing content, web pages, data sheet downloads, design guides, coming to events, coming to webinars. So behind the scenes, marketing was the wing person to sales in closing this deal. It was no longer about marketing, getting a lead and then passing the lead to sales and then hoping it'll close.
00:07:09:22 - 00:07:34:21
Luxy:
Right? That's the old way of doing it. It was about us hand in hand with sales, 24,000 touch points while sales was doing their job. We were in it with them. And what I love is we have loads of key studies like this.
Alison:
That's such a terrific example. And in many ways sales and marketing have always needed to work so closely together and should absolutely see each other as as partners and colleagues.
00:07:34:21 - 00:07:53:05
Alison:
But there is more often than not a healthy tension instead of collaboration. So it sounds like you and your team are making good progress on that. When you shared that at the sales conference, I'd love to hear how the sales team reacted.
Luxy:
Well, they applauded. I mean, this is why it was so incredible. It was marketing was celebrated. Marketing was celebrated in that moment.
00:07:53:13 - 00:08:22:04
Luxy:
And like I said, that was just a proof point. And of course, we're doing this regionally, country wise, looking at all of our big accounts and saying, how can we be the wing person in helping close that deal? That to me is the testament. That's the win, right?
Alison:
So I touched on this a bit earlier. But when I think about the potential superpower for a marketer is and what can really differentiate us from our colleagues and provide tremendous value across every aspect of a business, for me, it really comes down to the critically important role that we have as the voice of customers.
00:08:22:21 - 00:08:39:17
Alison:
In my experiences, what I've known the customer better than my colleagues, that really built credibility and enabled me to help them succeed in their roles by really deepening their understanding of who we wanted to reach and how we could do it. Now, Luxy, I definitely know you have a lot of heart for this topic too, and the many ways to approach it.
00:08:39:23 - 00:09:04:01
Luxy:
So I'd welcome your perspective. Thanks, Alison. And yes, we have talked about this in the past as well. There's this article that I read. This is one particular sentence that just really, really stuck with me. And the sentence was - at the heart of marketing is the consumer. The most complex entity that exists on planet Earth? The most complex, Right.
00:09:04:01 - 00:09:37:02
Luxy:
And so it's part of I mean, to be honest, it's one of the reasons I love my job, because it's hard and it's always changing. And to your point on the voice of the customer, absolutely right. Our job is ultimately to bring that voice of the customer into our organization so that we, the organization, is investing in the right product, the right service, the right offer, the right value prop, and even the right way to deliver the delivery of the product to our customer.
00:09:38:01 - 00:09:58:15
Luxy:
And by the way, we have to do all that and outcompete the competition. Right? And so I think that's also one of the reasons and again, we've we've also, even at the board level, asked and talked about the ever changing title of the CMO. And I know one of the titles that's either given or taken is the Chief Customer Officer right?
00:09:58:15 - 00:10:28:14
Luxy:
Because again, it is so incredibly important that we're bringing that voice. It is also why, if done right, which I fundamentally believe organizations are bringing the CMO and the marketing function to help lead organization transformation, because again, at the organization level, the heart of everything, a company, if they're doing it right, should be the customer. Again, let's remind ourselves, the customer, which also happens to be the most complex entity that's ever existed on planet Earth.
00:10:29:07 - 00:10:56:13
Alison:
That is absolutely part of the magic and frustration of the amazing jobs that we get to do now. Given the complexity, it's challenging to stay on top of and to understand the different segmentations and where your customer is evolving to and how you from a business marketing perspective, need to evolve to keep pace. Can you share some examples from either Cisco or your career of how you've successfully done that?
00:10:56:17 - 00:11:26:06
Luxy:
I think from a case, I'll talk about a couple of things. One, I am so very privileged to work for an amazing leader and my boss, Carrie Palin, who's also the CMO of Cisco, is constantly raising the bar for us. And Carrie has also instilled a culture that is focused on driving credibility with our business counterparts. And that credibility is based on data and performance and insights.
00:11:26:06 - 00:11:51:18
Luxy:
And so in order to keep up and keep pace and deliver, that actually means at every level of my organization globally, I need to make sure my teams are equipped. They're equipped not only to have access to data, but more importantly, because actually there's actually a lot of data out there. Right. But what they need to do is take the data and marry it and tell the right story and have the right impact conversation.
00:11:51:19 - 00:12:13:19
Luxy:
So in fact, recently we invested a significant amount of of our what we call development funds and we trained my entire global team on and took them to a course that was called took them virtually to a course called Data Storytelling. And it was an incredibly powerful, I think it was almost two days, and it was all about how do you take data?
00:12:14:03 - 00:12:32:18
Luxy:
But more importantly, how do you take the data and show impact and demonstrate impact? And that's an example how we're trying to keep pace, how we're trying to keep up with the raised bars right? And so I would say that's you know, that's one of the big areas is investing, investing in ourselves, investing our talent so that we can all raise the bar together.
00:12:33:11 - 00:13:04:24
Alison:
Luxy, you've actually got an enviable career, and you're just getting started in many ways. So I'd love to hear. What advice do you have for aspiring CMO's who want to follow in your footsteps?
Luxy:
Be passionate about learning. I mean, everything we just talked about, right Alison? It's all about evolving and growth mindset and just learning. And so I would just say, regardless of what ever level you're aspiring to become, be a passionate learner because it is an ever, ever changing practice.
00:13:05:13 - 00:13:27:05
Alison:
Now, I absolutely knew our time together was going to fly by, and it certainly lived up to that. Can I ask you to leave our listeners with one final thought?
Luxy:
I'm going to give you two. Number one, marketing drives business impact, and it's onto us to demonstrate that in everything we do. And number two, it is an incredibly exciting time to be a marketer.
00:13:27:09 - 00:13:45:08
Luxy:
I literally I do think I have one of the best jobs in the world.
Alison:
Well, we'll have to debate each other because I think I have one of the best jobs in the world, too, so.
Luxy:
Well, you get to work with marketers, right?
Alison:
Absolutely. Absolutely. We're both very fortunate. So Luxy, thanks so much for a really great conversation.
00:13:45:09 - 00:13:56:13
Alison:
I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I absolutely know that our listeners have learned a great deal from your experiences and your perspectives and your candour. So thank you.
Luxy:
Thank you, as always, for having me.
00:14:00:05 - 00:14:14:13
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.
EP3 - From Talk To Action: Championing DEI as a Marketer - PART II
03 Oct 2023
00:22:00
Alison Simpson, CEO of CMA, continues the discussion with Tyjondah Kerr, Director of Program Development and Delivery at OLG and Patrick Bhang, Director of Retail Merchandising, RBC, in part II of affecting change and combatting racism and discrimination in the marketing profession.
Patrick Bhang's thoughts, opinions and insights are done so as a marketing professional and not as a representative of RBC.
00:02
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow,
00:14
while also delivering on today's business needs. Ensuring that the marketing profession is as diverse and inclusive as the Canadians that we market to is a top priority for the CMA and for our membership.
00:32
Alison: So in keeping with that theme, it's a pleasure to welcome back two members from our CMA DEI committee. We had a great episode, hopefully you've had a chance to listen to it, and there was so much great conversation that we wanted to follow it up with a second episode.
00:47
So coming back to join me today, we have Tyjondah Kerr, the director of social responsibility at OLG. She's also a self -described chief disruption officer, which definitely comes in handy when you're focused on driving positive change.
00:59
Patrick Bang is the director of retail merchandising for RBC. He's also my highly valued Co -Chair for CMA's DEI committee. It's trippy to have you both back with us today, and I look forward to continuing our conversation.
01:11
So one of the positive outcomes from the third year of our DEI marketer survey was that a lot fewer marketers today are saying that they have observed disengagement among marginalized groups.
01:22
So we are making progress there. They're witnessing fewer discriminatory behaviors in their organizations, and those are very, very encouraging signs. But the change has been slow,
01:34
certainly slower than we would have hoped. So how do you feel about the amount of progress that we're seeing within organizational cultures, and what do you think we can do to help accelerate it? Tyjondah why don't you kick this off?
01:46
Tyjondah: 100%. Thank you, Alison. I think honestly, we've just got to get people comfortable in the conversation and be clear on what it is we're trying to do. So for example, when I took on this work during the pandemic,
01:59
it was about having conversations and telling my story about my journey and being, because I've been a part of OLG, it's going on 24 years in November. And so there were a lot of people that knew me and I knew them.
02:12
And so there was a level of comfort already there to ask questions and to sort of invoke inspiration. And I think that what we need to do more of is to have more conversations,
02:23
more storytelling, so that we can, because emotion is what's going to get us the impact change, right? And move forward. And I think storytelling is the way to go. Like, those statistics are talking about engaged employees.
02:35
Engaged employees are happy employees. And they're engaged when they have a sense of belonging. So if you start telling stories about how you are planning, based on your experiences, planning to help create a culture that is inclusive for all so that folks feel that they can be themselves during a certain situation,
02:53
then you've got the gold star and the north star right there. And people can move towards it. And so I think progress is slow, yes, but we can't stop. And we've seen a lot of folks fall off after George Floyd's murder and not do it.
03:08
Budget constraints are different, you know, inflation, people are laying folks off and it might just fall on the wayside. And it's like people like the three of us who are very passionate about this because we know that this change will make for positive,
03:23
a more positive future. I think we need to continue that conversation through storytelling, through connection. I really think that people just look kind of inward really and do some homework,
03:34
see how far you can go and then just help another person out. At the end of the day, it's being service to others. And I think I might have strayed away from your question, but do you think that we just have to story tell and continue the work and make sure the conversation's there on a consistent basis?
03:49
People should put it as a standing agenda for their meetings. Let's talk about EDI and just pick a topic. Keep the top of mind. Alison: I love that idea, because then to your point, it becomes part of the regular conversation. And people get more comfortable and are less concerned about,
04:03
will I have a misstep? I'm not going to have a misstep because I'm open to having a conversation. So people are going to be understanding and help me learn and improve as I go as well. So I think that's such great counsel.
04:14
Patrick, what would you add to this? Patrick: I would say that the research shuts some light into the benefits of having diversity at all levels and especially diversity at the top,
04:26
so I think you have more employee engagement when they look at leadership above them and feel like, yes, that is achievable for me,
04:36
I can get there because they're seeing it. There is more empathy at the top as well, so it's important for leaders to understand the circumstances that the employees from marginalized groups are going through as well,
04:50
so whether it's listening or being part of the community, I think a lot of that does come out in the results of the research, so you see fewer disengaged employees,
05:02
you see fewer incidents of microaggression when there is diverse leadership at the top, where no diverse leadership are not aspiring to have diverse leadership.
05:13
The other thing I'll say is there is an intimidation factor as well, so the element of microaggression, if you're not from marginalized communities,
05:25
you haven't experienced in some of that, so your experience is very different, but there is intimidation in the sense that there is un clarity of what that is.
05:38
I have few leaders coming to me and said, I'm not sure, one time I was upset, I may have been taking my frustration out on somebody, it's that microaggression,
05:48
so to Tyjondah's point, there is a lack of awareness around what some of the terms are, and as the advocates and community leaders,
06:01
I think we just have to make sure that we are out there adding clarity to some of the things that we're talking about, and you know making sure that there is safe spaces,
06:12
if somebody doesn't fully understand what that is, is having a safe space for them to speak up and for us to have that conversation. Alison: That's such a great example Patrick of how you personally have created a safe place because for that leader to come and ask you that question there's a sense of vulnerability and more importantly there's a desire to get better and to really understand.
06:34
It'd be hard to have that safe place especially for some more senior leaders so I love the example and kudos to you for helping being part of the solution when it comes to that. We've talked a lot about what we can do to positively impact internally at our organization but as marketers we also have this absolutely amazing opportunity to leverage the marketing profession and the marketing communications that we do to also
07:01
bring to life diversity and the power of a more infinity and approach to marketing. So there's absolutely no doubt that developing marketing strategies that truly resonate with our increasingly diverse customer base in Canada is a fundamental driver and builder of business and sales and I'd love each of you to talk a little bit about some of the challenges that you see in this areas some of the opportunities you see and
07:26
what steps you've taken or a contemplating taking to help address the opportunity and why don't Patrick why don't you continue the conversation you shared some great examples earlier.
07:37
Patrick: Thank you Alison. So if I think about the challenges that we face in some of the work that we do at RBC as well we are the three things that really come to mind for me one is the authentic representation in images and soft photography so you know the struggle is real I've been part of campaigns and we're trying to get images but it's not in the right context it doesn't have the authentic tone to it so that you
08:09
know we are trying to get around that we do our own photo shoots but it's hard to do a photo shoot for every campaign right right? Especially in an environment like today where there's a lot of,
08:20
you know, efficiency measures that are being put in place, right? So I would say that, I think we need the support of stock houses, of our agencies to ensure that we are building the pool of images that reflects the communities that we serve.
08:38
The second thing I would say is we need more diversity at all levels, not just on the client side, but also on the agency side, right? You know, if somebody's writing a brief that is by reaching cultural audiences as well,
08:53
because if you just think of the stats we went through, right? So that's mass, that's your mass audience now. What's the context? Do you have the context? Do you have, you know,
09:04
a sense of what their needs are to put your product in that perspective in terms of adding value to the audience, right? So I would say, you know, if you don't have that perspective,
09:15
then it's hard. But if we have diversity within your teams, you can challenge each other, you can bring different perspectives in, and you can open up your pool of understanding,
09:25
right? So and it's something that we do within our teams as well. So our team in retail, marketing, merchandising, we are quite diverse. And every week we get together,
09:36
we look at creative with a critical eye from our own experience with this LGBTQ + whether it's from a cultural lens, whether it's from an age lens. You know, we look at it critically and be very vocal about sharing how we feel when we see that creative,
09:51
because we put our consumers head on and we say, okay, does it feel like it's not connecting with us? Does it feel like it maybe I may go as far as maybe it may be a little offensive,
10:03
right? Because it's missing that aspect that I care about. or it's talking to me in a different way. So I think those things are important. So having diversity at all levels, a client as well,
10:13
supply side, I think is important. And then removing bias from the hiring process, right? So how do you ensure that, you know, because somebody's a newcomer, you're not discounting the experience,
10:25
you're not discounting their education. So an interesting story. I was having a conversation with a hiring manager, and the hiring manager had, he was sharing his recent experience on hiring and he had great intent.
10:40
He had the intent of, I'm going to ensure that, you know, I have a diverse pool of candidates and I'm going to put them through a panel of stakeholders and my partners.
10:54
So he did that. He came through with two candidates, one from the South Asian background and who was a newcomer three to three years in,
11:04
I believe. And the other was Canadian white male, the other South Asian newcomer male. So really, you know, good experiences. And the candidates went through the panel and they have selected the white male,
11:20
you know, both had similar backgrounds in education. So the hiring manager felt good because he went through the process and as he looked back, he looked at the panel of folks that were interviewing the candidate.
11:34
And so there was an aha moment to it. They all white males who were in the panel and I didn't see that and white male as well. So it was, you know,
11:45
he caught most of the things right, just that right. The last part, he missed. So, you know, the point here is we have to look at it.
11:55
We have to share best practices, having a diverse panel, folks interviewing the candidate. I think it's important, right? And, you know, I think he had the right intent. So kudos to him. And,
12:06
you know, it's a learning that he'll take away. So it's great to see that moment. I would say those three things, authentic representation of images and soft photography, more diversity at all levels. and lastly,
12:17
how do you remove the unconscious bias, in this case, in the hiring processes? Alison: Those are such great examples in that last one, in particular, just so resonates, that you go to all of this effort,
12:28
and then with the best of intentions, miss the importance of diversity on hiring panel as well. So thank you for sharing that experience, because it will make us all better as we go through a similar process.
12:39
Now, Tyjondah, I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this as well. - So I can't say that any better than Patrick did, it was amazing. The only other thing I would say is cultural humility. I think if you take folks through,
12:51
and it used to be called cultural competence, I just know the word competence, it makes you seem like you're incompetent. So I like the cultural humility, which is understanding from the grassroots level, different cultures,
13:03
be educated on different cultures, because different cultures interact differently in the day to day. And Patrick's point is we're hiring for more diversity, and we're becoming a more diverse workforce.
13:13
We have to understand that our culture plays a huge role in how we communicate, how we interact. For the longest while, I would not talk in meetings, because I was taught not to speak until I was spoken to.
13:24
I'm from the Caribbean, and there was a big deal, and we're a very colonized island as well. So the white man was always right. It was a thing for me. I had a lot of internal things I had to work on.
13:37
So building on everything Patrick said, the only thing I would add is that those leaders, those folks making the decisions, do some cultural humility work, so that you understand different cultures and how we interact with one another. Alison: Thank you so much.
13:48
I really appreciate you both being open to sharing your personal experiences as well, because they're incredibly illuminating for us. Now, helping enable and equip the marketing profession to be part of bringing more diversity,
14:00
equity, and inclusion to the world, and the profession that we're part of, is obviously an important part of the DEI committee, and certainly an important part of the CMA mandate as well. So we've introduced some new tools,
14:13
like our DEI resource hub on the website, the committee that you're both very actively involved in and contributing to, regularly publishes leadership on the topic, and also recently worked with us to develop and release a discussion guide that really helps share some tangible actions that marketers can and should take.
14:33
So since you were very involved in helping pull these resources together, where would you direct marketers seeking to better understand how best to make a difference? Tyjondah, I'll let you kick this off and then Patrick would love to have you build on her feedback.
14:45
You said it right there. Go on the CMA resource guide. There's a lot in there. We worked really hard to get that stuff in there. There's an article for me in there too, so I like it. Honestly, I've helped people all the time.
14:55
Alison, my very first thing is you've got to do the self -work. Not everyone are going to address bias. Not everyone is going to say, are going to be brave enough even to look inward and say,
15:08
you know, that was a racist comment. I had a lot of stereotypes in there and I need to pull myself back. People don't say that openly. A lot of people don't like to know that they were wrong in any kind of situation. And so I always like to take a step back.
15:20
If you can to reflect personally, I think you have to do a lot more self -work before you even start to go and look at resources and do this work because it's hard and it's uncomfortable. And so not everybody likes to feel uncomfortable.
15:32
I know I don't. I know I'm going to get to a level of comfort. I'll go through it. And so as much as there's so many resources out there, Alison, like you just Google diversity and 500 million things that come up.
15:44
And so there's, if you want to learn in this space, there's a lot out there. There's a lot for you to do. But I would say before you do that, just what are you trying to accomplish? Do you want to be a better human?
15:55
Do you want to just work better with your employees who are across different cultures? Or is it that I just want to jump in and help my community and my community is growing and it's very multicultural and it's very diverse from people from that has more accessibility or to 2SLGPTQ+ plus communities.
16:13
Ask yourself why you want to do it. Do some self -work and then take a Google and go in the direction you want to go in. But I do say start. If you're willing to start, I applaud you.
16:23
Alison: First and foremost, start, you're absolutely right, and then looking internally at ourselves is absolutely the right place to start as well. Do you have any favorite resources for us starting our own work?
16:34
Tyjondah: So I fell in love with this work following a woman by the name of Mary Frances Winters. She has her own consultancy that helps folks in this EDI work,
16:45
and she approaches it in a very similar way than how I approached EDI here at OLG. So it's the Winters group. Again, Google it, they're online. It's an American company, but you have a lot of listeners,
16:57
so it's good. But valuable content, regardless, on where to get started, and they really talk about the self -work that you have to do and the questions you have to ask, and how do I talk about race at work?
17:09
It really gets you into that comfortable setting so that you can impact change. So that is my favorite website. I use it now, even though I'm out of not doing EDI -specific work,
17:19
I'm more doing more social responsibility, but I still jump on that website, read their newsletter, and get tips of how to be a better leader and how to impact positive change in my workplace. Alison: Many thanks.
17:29
You're welcome. Patrick, I'd love to hear your advice as well. Patrick: As Tyjondah said, there's a lot of resources that you can tap into online. I'll give a shout out to our committee member,
17:41
Darian Kovach, who leads Marketing News Canada. He does a great job with his podcast, where he interviews marketers from diverse backgrounds on challenges of today and some of the key tools,
17:55
especially on the digital side, and also in terms of how to connect with diverse audiences. So I'd say Marketing News Canada is a great resource for marketers in general, but also to tap into different perspectives.
18:06
Darian is an Indigenous leader, so he brings that perspective into the conversations as well, which is great. I'm a true believer in learning by doing, so I would encourage,
18:18
if you are interested, is to participate in, you whether it's an ERG, within the organization, employee resource group, whether it's organizations like us in Canada,
18:29
that supports Pan-Asian leaders, whether it's COF-P, that supports urban financial professionals from black communities, how to participate in that? You don't have to be from the community,
18:39
but you can be part of that community. And from a cultural standpoint, you can participate, you can gain different perspectives, CMA as well, you know, you can be part,
18:51
you know, of some of the work we are doing as well. So, you know, CMA inclusion happens every year where we invite leaders from different organizations to be part of the conversation.
19:03
If you're interested, I think that's great to bring a perspective. So I think there's a lot of opportunities and, you know, to take, you know, do a short -term or long -term volunteer gig and learn from folks from,
19:15
from those communities. And I think there's a lot to learn that way. Alison: Such great advice. I really want to thank you both for your incredibly valuable insights today. I love the fact that it's been sharing perspective,
19:26
but also giving us some really actionable ways that we can start making a positive impact as soon as this afternoon or tomorrow. So I really appreciate that. And I want to close by giving each of you a chance to leave us with one final thought.
19:41
So Patrick, you can kick things off and then Tyjondah, you can officially wrap up our time together. Patrick: One final thought is more of a one final ask. Canada and newcomers coming to Canada,
19:52
they need mentors. There is no guide in terms of some of the cultural nuances, some of the language nuances, some of the culture nuances in Canada. I'd say be a mentor to a newcomer and,
20:05
you know, help them settle into a country faster. New Canada is a beautiful place. It's an amazing diverse community. Let's bring them in. Let's support them and let's make sure they're successful for our own success in the future.
20:18
So, you know, TRIAC is a great organization. They're looking for mentors. We are looking at a mentorship program for CMA. So if you're interested, reach out to us and we can connect you to the right resources.
20:32
Tyjondah: I love that, Patrick. And I'm putting up my hand now. And I would say, I think my closing thoughts, Alison, is that please be okay to lean into your discomfort.
20:44
I think that's what I'm going to tell folks. It's like lean into it. It's okay. There's a huge community on us who among everyone who want to impact change. So lead into the discomfort because it does lead to change.
20:59
And then at the end of the day, we're human beings and we're all on this earth to be of service to one another. And so part of that discomfort is being there for others. And as long as that's our priority,
21:11
we'll get this work done. And I'm going to just do a little mic drop there. We do it in service to one another. Alison: That was a very powerful mic drop. So, Tyjondah and Patrick, thanks again. I knew when we the three of us got together that the time was going to fly by and that certainly has proven to be the case.
21:25
And I just want to thank you once again for giving us very actionable and powerful ways to walk away from listening to the podcast and really start making an even bigger difference. Thanks for joining us.
21:43
Be sure to visit the cma .ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.
EP3 - From Talk To Action: Championing DEI as a Marketer - PART I
03 Oct 2023
00:22:37
Alison Simpson, CEO of CMA, welcomes Tyjondah Kerr, Director of Program Development and Delivery at OLG and Patrick Bhang, Director of Retail Merchandising, RBC, to discuss affecting change and combatting racism and discrimination in the marketing profession.
Patrick Bhang's thoughts, opinions and insights are done so as a marketing professional and not as a representative of RBC.
00:02
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow,
00:14
while also delivering on today's business needs. Alison: So helping ensure that the marketing profession in Canada is as diverse and inclusive as the Canadians that we're marketing to is absolutely a top priority for the CMA,
00:33
as well as for our membership. On that note, we have a dedicated DEI committee that's made up of very talented marketers and DEI experts from across our broad membership, and they play a key role in our efforts.
00:44
One of the ways the CMA is helping to advance DEI within marketing is through research that also helps lead to action. So our DEI in the marketing profession Progress and challenges survey earlier this year really explored what steps can be taken to have a meaningful impact on diversity in the workplace for the marketing profession.
01:04
The research was developed in collaboration with the CMA's DEI committee, and it's third study that we've completed since 2020. So it's an important part of our broader commitment to take steps to combat racism and discrimination in marketing.
01:18
So it is an absolute pleasure to welcome two members from our DEI committee today to discuss this really important call to action for the profession. So I'll start by introducing Tyjondah Kerr,
01:28
who is the Director of Social Responsibility at OLG. She's also a self -described Chief Disruption Officer, which definitely comes in handy when you're focused on driving positive change. And then joining Tyjondah and myself today is Patrick Bhang.
01:41
He's the Director of Retail Marketing for RBC, and Patrick's also my very highly valued co -chair for the CMA DEI committee. It's really great to have both of you here today, Tiana and Patrick.
01:52
Tyjondah: Thank you for having me. Patrick: Thank you for having me. Alison: So we're gonna get right into the topic. As marketers, we can absolutely all agree that our profession has a very unique opportunity to drive diversity,
02:06
equity, and inclusion from a number of angles. However, many marketers are still seeking guidance and best practices on how they can best do that and have a real impact.
02:16
So in some instances, it's really hard for them to know where to begin. And that's exactly what we're going to do, is we're going to begin by asking how to help marketers continue having these conversations.
02:30
So I'd love to ask each of you if you could start by sharing your views on marketing's impact and taking that first step. Tiana, why don't you kick things off? Tyjondah: Absolutely. Thank you, Alison. I think I like to start off by telling everybody you all have a sphere of influence when it comes to this work.
02:47
No matter what level you are at, whether you're a graphic designer, art director, owner of an agency, any particular person can influence their work,
02:58
their day -to -day through EDI. And you need to start with understanding that equity has to happen. And I think a lot of us start with diversity and we get scared and there's fear.
03:11
But our organization here at OLG puts equity first. It's equity, diversity, then inclusion. And the reason why we do that is because if you have the focus on equity by sort of balancing out the inequities that are causing the problems,
03:24
when you put that first at the forefront of the conversation, then diversity can come next as well as inclusion. I will actually say inclusion should come first because you want to always have a culture of inclusion where folks feel comfortable to be themselves and especially within the marketing industry to come feel safe to bring their ideas forward and to make change.
03:43
In a nutshell, I just say that we all have influence, no matter what our level and what we do, and to just jump in without fear. It's scary to screw up and make mistakes,
03:54
but it is what it is. We are human beings. We aim for progress, not perfection. And so in doing that, when we go into it on a daily basis and under our own capacity,
04:05
how we can affect change by what we do, just jump in with both feet. And if we make a mistake, we say we're sorry and we just grow from that and we get better. And I really think for all marketers, for any level of where you are at in the profession,
04:18
EDI is something that should be at the forefront just because of the work that involves both internally and externally and how we impact the world. And so honestly, Allison, to start us off,
04:28
that is what I would say. Like jump in without fear, consider equity first and how you want to go about doing that. Then focus on inclusivity and making sure people feel welcome and appreciated and valued. And we all have that sense of belonging.
04:40
And then the diversity will generally happen because of just what happens naturally organically. And I can leave it there. Alison: Very well said. And you're so right that in any new area that we're pursuing as individuals,
04:54
you just expect that there's going to be mistakes along the way. This topic can come with some intimidation. So to acknowledge that we're all going to make mistakes, no matter how well versed we are,
05:05
we, it's inevitable that we'll have some missteps along the way. And let's be understanding of ourselves and each other when that happens. And let's use it as a learning opportunity. So incredibly well said.
05:16
Patrick, I know this is a passion for yours as well. So how would you answer the question? Patrick: Yeah, so in terms of what market is going to do to take that first step, for me, it's it's around,
05:26
it's about understanding what's happening around you, right? So one of the aspects that was hardly enlightening for me is looking at a shift in demographics in Canada.
05:38
So if you look at the 2021 census data, it will be very clear to you that the groups formally, collectively known as minorities, are in fact becoming the majority in key cities.
05:50
Toronto, Vancouver, 56 % of the population in these countries are visible minorities. Even most staggering is you look at the hubs around these cities, like the Markhams,
06:01
the Bramptons, the Richmond BCs, 80 % of the population in those communities are visible minorities. So you may ask, okay, yeah, makes sense,
06:12
Vancouver, Toronto. What about the Western cities? So if you look at Calgary, you look at Minton, you look at Winnipeg, they're not actually that far behind Toronto and Vancouver.
06:24
They are 47%, like between 40 to 47%. So, you know, the demographics are changing throughout Canada, and that's going to be accelerated by the fact that we are welcoming 400,000 newcomers to Canada every year for the next few years.
06:41
So as marketers, I feel like, you know, the first step is around having awareness in terms of how your target audience is changing, who is going to be buying your product, either your products or your clients' products in the coming years,
06:54
and how do you connect with them in meaningful ways. So, you know, one of the aspects that, as I think about this, and I look at brands that are doing really well, when you look at IKEA,
07:05
you look at some of the powerhouse brands in Canada, like Canadian Tire. Canadian Tire rolls out the red carpet for newcomers in mass advertising and welcomes them into the community.
07:17
IKEA celebrates Ramadan in mass advertising to show that, hey, you know, we can play a part in your celebrations. We can add value.
07:28
And it's providing ideas to the cultural audience, right, to make sure that their products are relevant to them. So, given the stats that I just mentioned, given, you know, that you can creatively really engage this space by showing that you have a sense of where they're coming from.
07:45
You can connect with them. You can play a part in their lives in meaningful ways. I think that's where success will really come from, right? Even if you think about, you know, some of these showcases in Cannes,
07:56
this year, DEI played a huge part with Apple's, you know, campaign called The Greatest, that really recognizes showcases how accessibility is built into their products.
08:08
If you look at Vaseline and some of the work they're doing in terms of lack of diversity in images for physicians to diagnose something, something, I think those are all real challenges that brands are taking that courage step-to-step forward and say,
08:22
yes, I think year is a challenge and year is how we can solve it. So, you know, going back to your question, as in the first step, well, is understanding how things, how the community is changing around you,
08:33
who you target audience are and really figuring out how your brand and your client's brand can play a role in the lives of our Davos society and Davos community.
08:45
So that's where I'll leave it. Alison: Patrick, thanks so much for sharing your experience and your expertise. It really cements the fact that being more diverse and inclusive in our approach isn't just the right thing to do.
08:57
It's also such a smart driver of business and you can have dramatic positive business impacts at the same time that you're having dramatic positive societal impacts as well.
09:09
So it just speaks to the importance and in large part why the three of us are as passionate as we are about bringing more diversity, equity and inclusion to the marketing profession. So as I mentioned earlier,
09:19
we've now done our third survey, DEI survey to the Canadian marketing community. And one of the key metrics that has emerged every year in our research is that the diversity of senior leadership in an organization is fundamental to just about everything and it's fundamental in the positive impact it can have across all the important business metrics.
09:42
Despite all of the benefits, today only 25 % of respondents felt that they had well -diversified leadership teams and that had only increased a couple of points since we first did the survey in 2020.
09:56
So my question to both of you, given the importance of diversity, especially in senior leadership, why do you think change is taking so long and what are organizations doing to really help move the dial?
10:08
Patrick, do you want to respond first and then Tyjondah, you can build on the comments? Patrick: Thanks, Alison, that's a great question. If I think about, you know, where we were in 2020, it's important for us to understand that prior to the pandemic,
10:21
prior to Black Lives Matter, prior to anti -Asian hate, there was not a lot of attention that was actually being paid to whether a company's workforce was diverse or not, right? So if you think about it,
10:32
I was part of an organization in Canada and we were supporting Pan-Asian leadership. To, at that point, prior to the pandemic, there wasn't a lot of momentum towards,
10:44
hey, you know, who are our employees? What can we do to make our work think more inclusive? Some of the top leaders were thinking that way, but there was not a lot of action underway at that time.
10:55
So the pandemic happened, and what it did was it brought to light some of the inequities, some of the systemic bias and the everyday challenges that the marginalized groups and those in lower social economics classes faced,
11:10
right? It's hard to think about the pandemic now. I mean, you know, it almost feels like distant memory. But a few years in 2020, if you think about that, it's, you know,
11:21
we saw a spike in racism, like these brutality in Black communities with Floyd's death. You know, like the elderly Asians being pushed and punched on the roads and the streets of Canada.
11:33
Like, you know, you saw the impact of bias. You saw how the pandemic really hurt ethnic and minority groups in ways that brought to light all the systemic inequalities and injustices.
11:47
So, you know, when you think about that, and you think of what happened, as many brands advertised their support for Black Lives Matter. And we saw the, you know,
11:58
the backlash of advocates and society in general calling them out to say, hey, thanks for your support, but your workforce is not diverse. Your leadership is not diverse.
12:10
Like, you know, I'm not going to call out the brand's name, but we know who they are, right? I mean, so when you think about that, you start to then see top companies really start to address that,
12:23
really start to look into their own backyard to see, okay, are we diverse enough? Is and, you know, there is some strong momentum. Organizations are hiring and they've started positions like Chief Diversity Officer,
12:37
which is actually not a common title that people had prior to the pandemic, right? So but we see more of that. And, you know, it's great the organizations are doing that because they're saying we need somebody to bring us together to address our own systemic issues that prevents us from hiring,
12:57
you know, members from visible minority groups or marginalized groups. So what can we do differently? How do we bring people together? How do we start training sessions?
13:07
How do we create mentorship programs? So if I just think about, you know, just a few years ago, three years ago, to me, that was the trigger.
13:18
That was, you know, the issues how they came to life. That was what we needed to see to gain the momentum. So you know, to get to 25%, you know, three years out,
13:29
I see some optimistic in general. So I see a lot of momentum building up towards a brighter future where, you know, there will be diversity at all levels of leadership in Canada and the States,
13:44
in the not too long, you know, future. So, you know, I see what RBC is doing. I see what, you know, some of the key brands are doing. And I'm encouraged by what I'm seeing. So I look at from the standpoint is we have some great momentum,
13:56
and we just have to ensure that we keep building on it. Alison: It's such a great perspective. And thank you for level setting that because we want to make as much progress as quickly as possible,
14:06
we can sometimes underestimate the progress that we've already made. So I really appreciate you celebrating the fact that yes, we want to continue to improve, but we should also acknowledge that we are making advancements.
14:20
We are furthering the important mandate. Now, Tyjondah I know you've got some great thoughts on this as well so I'd love to turn it over to you. Tyjondah: I'm one of those people that like Patrick very positive and I do see movement in this space you know sometimes when you ask certain organizations if they feel like if you ask the employees especially black employees they'll say no it's not moving fast enough and I think
14:42
sometimes that that's just our you know it's our own personal sort of narrative on how we want to see change based on how we've been affected in corporate Canada but to the question on leadership though I think the reason why it's not moving as slowly to is it's like I mentioned earlier it's that fear and then I also think that a lot of leaders aren't being intentional so marketers especially are riding the wave like
15:05
we're trying to be more diverse in our advertising and it's about the people that were hiring and etc etc and that's all great but in the actual jobs your day-to-day it needs to be intentional leaders need to be intentional and say I am going to hire a person of color you know for this particular role or I am going to look for a woman to fill this role because it's been historically filled by male and you could
15:34
do this under especially here in Ontario you could do that under your Human Rights Act right um you know to have that specialized hiring so that you're not discriminating discriminating against other marginalized communities but I do think folks just are not being intentional a because they might be too scared I don't know what that looks like I don't know how to do it and I think the other thing and Patrick I'm just
15:55
going to pick on something you said just a little bit about the EDI the chief EDI officer that you know it's not just up to that role to do the work that role will bring you the education and get you the knowledge and everything else that you need but every leader needs to look inward and say how am I impacting this work and if this is something that our organization is it's pledging to do we are pledging to be
16:19
more equitable we are pledging to be more diverse and we're pledging to be more inclusive then each of those three things are a very big statement and every leader needs to say well what am I going to do what is my impact how am I going to hire for more diversity so that we can increase that pipeline so we'll see those numbers the next time we survey grow even more we need to have the pipeline to choose from and
16:42
if our marketing organizations aren't going out there to tap people about our industry to see all the different things that we're doing then we'll never have that pipeline and we'll never have people to promote so it kind of takes all of us in this work to sort of do our part to make this move along further it's not to the EDI person it is not up to the CEO it's up to all of us to play a part in player role to
17:04
be intentional to make sure that we move along a little further because it is kind of slow I get that it's a journey but I mean we just celebrated last Monday the 60th anniversary of Martin Luther King's speech on his march on on Washington 60 years and that's too long we should be a little bit more we should be faster along truth and reconciliation even when you think about it I think there's something like only
17:26
four acts four of the actions that's been done that our prime minister had said here in Canada four out of all of the acts under truth and reconciliation come on folks we can move a little faster and that's been since I think 2013 or 2015 come on so sorry that came from a very passionate place Alison: Never apologize for your passion you're so right no matter how talented the chief diversity officer is the the CEO are one
17:51
person two people alone cannot accomplish what we need to accomplish and when you call out the fact that every individual in an organization has an important role to play building on that idea to what degree should diversity be part of our KPIs and performance objectives because ultimately what gets measured gets focused on and hopefully achieved where would you sit on that question?
18:15
Tyjondah: I love that question. I'm not a fan of quotas. Like I get a little scared about quotas, but you've got to measure. You have to have a target. What are you trying to do? And I think you have to ask the question, what is it that we're trying to resolve?
18:27
What is it that we're trying to impact as an organization? Each organization has to make that decision. And then when they decide, like I'll take OLG for example, for us in our offices in Sault Ste.
18:38
Marie, it's 82 % white that people identify. And we've got a very large population in Sault Ste. Marie that is of Indigenous population. So if we are an organization that wants to become more diverse,
18:51
then we would set a target of say, let's increase Indigenous hires from 2 % that it is now to 3 % year over year, whatever that would be, to be intentional of trying to increase that work,
19:04
right? So if you use targets in that way, not to just have a quota, we need 50 % black people, no. That's like, don't just pull it out of your hat, be intentional and authentic in what it is that you're trying to do.
19:17
And then you put yourself, you put a target, you put that as part of your KPIs that you want to accomplish for the year, you talk about it. And that's part of the journey and part of it's speeding it up.
19:28
So we do have to put those targets in place so the work could speed up. And I kind of jumped in there because it was just top of line, but Patrick, I don't know if you have anything to say. But that's my two cents. Tyjondah: For five cents because we're in inflation.
19:41
Patrick: I 100 % agree. I think quotas are not the right thing to do. I feel like goals and aspirations are important,
19:52
right? So I'll kind of build on what you were saying about pipeline. To me, that is the focus, right? So it's not to kick the leaders out of their seat today.
20:05
It's to ensure that organizations are coming together, to ensure that, hey, are we supporting the you or the students with the right opportunities?
20:18
Students of all colors, students of all classes, are we making sure that we are taking our biases out and ensuring that everybody has opportunities to participate in internships based on their interests,
20:32
based on their education, right? So, do they have the opportunity? Do emerging leaders have the opportunity, the same opportunities to have the mentorship, to have the training,
20:44
to have the opportunities to be in front of key leaders and beyond significant projects? So, to me, I think that's the pipeline, that is going to be so important for us to ensure that all the leaders,
20:58
like 100 % agree, it's up to all leaders to ensure at all levels that we are all focused on making sure that there is a strong pipeline of future leaders.
21:10
So as changes are happening, we give leaders of all communities and visible communities those opportunities to succeed. So I do believe in that, you know,
21:20
the goals are where it plays to be because I think being measured to goals is going to be important, right? So it helps us stay focused, making sure we have stretch goals, making sure that we come up with innovative solutions to get to those goals.
21:35
Alison: Tyjondah and Patrick, we've had such a great discussion and I know we're just getting started. I really appreciate the terrific and very personal and hands-on learning that you've provided to our listeners and I want to continue the conversation with the follow -up podcast.
21:50
So please tune in to part two with Tyondah Kerr, the Director of Social Responsibility at OLG and Patrick Bhang, the Director of Retail Merchandising for RBC.
22:01
They're also both on our CMA Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Committee. We're going to come back for a follow-up episode to share more learning on how we, as a marketing profession,
22:12
can further advance DEI within our community. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA .ca and sign up for your free My CMA account.
22:26
It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.
EP2 - Embracing Generative AI with Audrey Davidson and Amol Shah
12 Sep 2023
00:22:36
Alison Simpson, CEO of The CMA, welcomes Microsoft's Amol Shah, Americas Data & AI Lead, and Audrey Davidson, Head of Integrated Marketing Americas, to discuss generative AI and the future of the marketing profession.
00:00:02:20 - 00:00:19:08
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brand and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.
00:00:22:14 - 00:00:49:21
Alison: It's an absolute pleasure to have Audrey Davidson and Amol Shah from Microsoft joining us on CMA Connect today. Not surprisingly, generative AI is a very hot topic for the marketing profession right now. It's also evolving and expanding very quickly and represents certainly a lot of excitement, but also some daunting time for everyone involved. So we really see today as a great opportunity to discuss generative AI from two different and very well informed perspectives.
00:00:50:11 - 00:01:10:21
Audrey is the head of Integrated Marketing for the Americas and Amol is the data and I lead for sales enablement and Operations for the Americas at Microsoft. Welcome, Audrey and Amol. Thanks, Alison. Great to be here. Thanks, Alison. Yeah. Great to be here. On the hopefully very rare chance that there's someone listening who doesn't know. I'm going to give a quick definition of generative A.I..
00:01:11:13 - 00:01:33:17
Alison: Quite simply, it's a form of machine learning like m365, copilot and chat GPT that can produce text, video, images and other types of content. So with that simple definition behind us, let's get started. I'm going to kick things off with you, and I'd love to hear. How do you recommend companies approach and think about AI? Yeah, it's a great question.
00:01:33:19 - 00:02:02:00
Amol: So I've been in tech for probably 20 plus years now, and although Microsoft has been an AI company for some time, the pace of innovation right now is by far the most transformative I've personally seen. And so, you know, A.I. breakthroughs are going to change and augment how we work, how we live. And so I would kind of think about that question in three ways, which is, number one, I think everyone's mindset needs to evolve with that, right?
00:02:02:00 - 00:02:21:18
And especially from a traditional marketing perspective, we need to evolve into more of a learn it all mindset versus a know it all mindset. And so what I mean by that is we really need to spend the time understanding A.I. how it could support the business, the technology behind it, how it's used, the principles behind it, all of that stuff.
00:02:21:18 - 00:02:44:22
We need to really, as marketing professionals, really need to spend the time understanding and also have the mindset to to want to want to understand it. The second thing I would say is like the the AI, you know, piece of it right now can be overwhelming. And so I would say we need to think about how we start small with low risk use cases, meaning we don't need to completely revamp a process or an engine overnight.
00:02:44:24 - 00:03:04:13
Eventually, you need to get there, but start small and then building on on number one. It's a really cool time in the industry right now, and we have an opportunity to learn from peers, from influencers, from competitors. And so we need to embrace that. And so personally, I you know, I spent a lot of time with customers, with partners.
00:03:04:13 - 00:03:25:17
I talk to peers in the industry, understanding their perspectives, understanding where they're at, understanding where the technology is taking them and how how they're leveraging it. And so those are be the kind of the three things that just, you know, learn from everyone around you start small, lower low risk use cases and evolve the mindset all up in terms of how to transform marketing as a whole.
00:03:26:00 - 00:03:43:11
Alison: That's a great, great advice and a great starting point. Amol, thank you very much. Now, the two of you absolutely have a front seat for the AI revolution in many ways and I'd love to hear from both of you. What are the consistent themes that you're seeing companies and marketers ask about AI? Audrey Why don't you kick this one off?
00:03:44:07 - 00:04:10:21
Audrey: Yeah, sure, I'd love to. The biggest theme that I'm really noticing right now is curiosity and excitement around the art of the possible. So from automation and streamlining of processes for efficiency to predictive analytics and personalization for those improved experiences, I think that again, I just kind of center on that theme of curiosity and excitement is because people are just really eager to kind of either figure it out or experiment.
00:04:10:21 - 00:04:28:11
And then, you know, the marketers that I speak with, they're just really looking to embrace it and looking for the upsides and focusing on, you know, those time efficiencies that can really be granted so that we can all spend the time focusing on, you know, kind of the the strategic things that we want to focus on can be a really great enabler.
00:04:28:11 - 00:04:55:02
Alison: You're absolutely right, Audrey. Amol I'd love to hear what you'd add to that. Amol:
Content generation is one areas around proposals, contracts, presentations, Yeah, themes I guess that I'm seeing right now as it relates to marketing is for area specifically designs, invoices, all of that stuff I get from different kind of industries and the idea of how do you leverage high into the flow of work and business process.
00:04:55:08 - 00:05:21:13
Amol: And so that that's number one. Secondly, I would say there's a big portion of data and analytics that comes into play. One of the biggest barriers that we've always seen around adoption of AI tools is data. And so specifically how to how does marketing interact with data engineers, data scientists, business analysts and the struggle with the complexity of making data integration and data warehousing, machine learning, business intelligence all work together from a marketing perspective.
00:05:21:13 - 00:05:38:16
And so that idea of data and analytics is coming up to the forefront in terms of AI as a whole customer service. And again, it's something we typically don't get very involved in from a marketing perspective, but customer experience, customer service is going to evolve with AI. And as marketers, we need to be a part of that.
00:05:38:16 - 00:06:05:11
And so think about how chat bots are being leveraged right now. And then the last thing again, something not traditional, but the idea of app development code generation and how do we think about that from a go to market perspective in terms of how agile we are when it comes to launching or refining products? And so I would say those are kind of the four areas that I've seen pretty consistently across the board when it comes to how marketing and CMO's are thinking about leveraging AI.
00:06:05:13 - 00:06:27:00
Alison: Thanks Amol. Now Audrey I think you mentioned that one of the potential areas is to free us up as marketers to focus on higher level work. So I'd love you to build on that and share how you see it transforming the way that organizations and marketers are working. Audrey: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think it really is making life ton easier for us.
00:06:27:01 - 00:06:59:13
You know, I think it's an exciting time to be a marketer because of that. So, you know, digital tools and platforms, leveraging AI and machine learning, you know, they're providing unprecedented opportunities for us to reach and engage with audiences in creative and innovative ways. You know, I think about how AI to what Amol was always saying can assist with data analysis, content creation, leads, scoring, interactions with customers and then again allowing, you know, freeing up time for marketers to kind of go and focus on that creativity and strategy.
00:06:59:23 - 00:07:28:23
There's also the productivity element. I think that the integration of AI and automation into our marketing processes really enables us as marketers to streamline our tasks, automate those routine activities, and then focus on, again, the more strategic aspects of our roles in terms of some some examples within our own commercial marketing function, our team of data geniuses are doing the intuitive things, so they're using AI, AI for content, summarization, categorization and transcription.
00:07:29:05 - 00:07:54:12
We have a chat bot that summarizes our marketing literature, eliminating the cumbersome process of finding and digesting large volumes of information. They're also doing the not so intuitive things, so layering AI into existing and bespoke marketing apps. And this results in marketers spending less time navigating our tool and pulling out those insights and filling out forms by asking simple questions to the chat bot.
00:07:54:12 - 00:08:20:24
And the chat bot does the work almost instantaneously. So the shortens that distance between discovery insight and action. And then I guess there's other things that they're working on for the sake of experimentation and learning. But I think there's just again, so many opportunities for us just to embrace and transform our, our organizations. Alison: And Audrey and Amol, even in a tech company, change can still be intimidating,
00:08:20:24 - 00:08:43:16
So to what degree are you finding your teams excited and really embracing the opportunities? And to what degree is it? Can it be a little overwhelming or a little bit intimidating? Amol: Yeah, I mean, you know, just building on the on the last part what Audrey said, I think, you know, transforming the way we traditionally think about how we reach customers is difficult.
00:08:43:16 - 00:09:08:19
Right? I brought up customer experience before as an example, and we have the data that says 91% of consumers are more likely to shop with brands that provide relevant recommendations and offers is an example. Right? And that's not a surprise. We all know that we all get bombarded with different echos, but from our perspective, it's changing the way we traditionally do things, everything from SEO to how we leverage websites.
00:09:08:19 - 00:09:36:09
And Audrey talked about chat bots, but across our entire organization, whether it's, you know, Microsoft 365 teams, PowerPoint word through LinkedIn, you know, we can take you through cases of how we've had to change things. So like for example, personal productivity, speech, transcription captioning within teams, content design and production within PowerPoint, within Xbox, we've leveraged generative AI for those personal recommendations that I've talked about within LinkedIn.
00:09:36:09 - 00:09:59:16
We've talked about image captioning and accessibility and leveraging AI. From that perspective. You know, outlook is a simple thing around contextual assistance as an example Bing as you've seen with chatbot and Bing chat, conversational intelligence. So there's all these different ways that we're leveraging it, but that does require a lot of people to change. So it's going to be, as I said, it's going to be an evolution, it's a mindset change as a whole.
00:09:59:16 - 00:10:20:19
But we're slowly getting there. Alison: And those are great examples how A.I. is really impacting Microsoft's approach to product and marketing. What are you doing to ensure that you're staying competitive as AI continues to have all that incredible speed?
Audrey: I was chatting with an agency head the other day and you know, they were they were sharing how as enabling them to produce content and half the time at half to cost.
00:10:21:03 - 00:10:43:11
So that's a win win for both agency and client. So I think that again, when we just look at the possibilities, it's not necessarily just within any given function within an organization, but also, you know, the the relationships and then also, you know, kind of time to market cost to market within the partnerships that we have. That's a very compelling example.
00:10:43:11 - 00:11:03:13
Alison: Audrey, thank you so much. So Amol, when we first Folke, I described you as an AI guru and you very quickly told me that given how fast the field is moving, it's absolutely impossible for anyone to truly be a guru. So with how rapidly things are evolving and expanding, is it possible in your mind to be a true expert?
00:11:04:11 - 00:11:20:21
Amol: Yeah, I mean, I think there's, you know, here's what I would kind of how I've responded to this. And we have a really good framework within Microsoft which talks about different rooms of the house is where we call it and you know, the conversation with a CIO is going to be very different than a conversation with the CMO.
00:11:20:21 - 00:11:47:14
Right. And I think part of that is we're consistent, like we're constantly learning about the different use cases. I mean, every single week we get hundreds if not thousands of new AI use cases. And so, yes, we can be experts. There's a technical piece to this, but there's also a business side to this. And I think, you know, it's the it's the first time that I've seen in a long time that we're the bridging of the technical and the business side is coming together so rapidly.
00:11:47:14 - 00:12:09:13
So in that sense, I would say, yes, we can we can be experts, but it is this idea of you have to constantly learn and evolve the conversation. And so we're at a point right now where, again, we're learning from customers, we're learning from partners, we're learning from consumers around how they use it, the types of use cases, the benefits, the cost advantages, the arc.
00:12:09:13 - 00:12:28:17
All of this is kind of, you know, we're working through our real time, right? And so, you know, I think there's a balance. Yes. Can you call yourself an expert, a guru? Absolutely. But there is always a little but to that. And I think having that mindset and learn it all culture that I talked about earlier is the but. Alison: Absolutely great, especially on the learn it all culture,
00:12:28:17 - 00:12:53:21
That's such an important element for all of us when it comes to embracing and really benefiting from any new technology. And certainly it's true in this case as well. So there's also obviously going to be quite a demand for organizations finding top talent. So what recommendations do you have for companies that are looking to attract and find the right talent to pursue this new opportunity?
00:12:53:21 - 00:13:15:02
Alison: And Amol I'd love you to take the lead on that question if you'd like. Amol: I would say from a talent perspective, you know, and I'll speak from strictly a marketing lens, right? I think some of those qualities that we talked about earlier in terms of how do you think about transformation in marketing as a whole is kind of one of those key differentiators that I think I'm going to be looking for and I'm hoping others are looking for, too, right?
00:13:15:02 - 00:13:35:00
And so when you think about generative A.I. in the traditional marketing sense, whether it's from an agency perspective or from it's from a pure technology perspective, it's ensuring people obviously understand the technology, understand how they can understand the use cases, but again, apply the application of that into the day to day marketing is going to be extremely important.
00:13:35:00 - 00:14:02:04
And so those qualities around just mindset I think is going to be important. Understanding how they can transform the marketing function. Using generative AI is going to be equally important. And then I think we just need to think broader about, you know, the traditional industries and ways we think about attracting talent. Right? And going back in my 17 years at Microsoft, we always had this kind of profile of what a marketer looked like and where they needed to come from.
00:14:02:04 - 00:14:20:23
And I think that whole that that's going to evolve and that's going to change into different roles within different companies and how we bring them in. Audrey: And I think I think I'd just like to add to that too. I think it also gives us the opportunity to elevate the kind of the need for critical thinking because, you know, well, air is a tool, right?
00:14:20:23 - 00:14:45:21
And so, you know, well, it's got a lot of kind of great capabilities that it brings to the table. We still need to apply critical thinking skills. And I think that's the fun part of marketing. Amol:
Yeah, and that's a great idea. Just building off of that, like the stuff we discussed earlier around how, you know, marketers typically used to spend their time around content design, production, editorial assistants, personalized recommendations.
00:14:45:21 - 00:15:10:05
They've spent a lot of time doing that, and that's going to change, right? And so how do you shift the role into more critical thinking and more strategic? And and so that thought needs to and that profile is going to change considerably. So, yeah, I completely agree with that point. Alison:
And building on that, Audrey, if you were mentoring a new marketer or speaking to an experienced marketer, what advice would you give them?
00:15:12:15 - 00:15:42:10
Audrey: Yeah, I'll go back to what Amol had said earlier. Just embrace being a learn it all. You know, the field is rapidly evolving. Continuous learning is going to be key. I think that generative AI holds immense and just immense potential for marketers to again streamline processes, enhance creativity and deliver more personalized and engaging experiences. I think, like anything, it's important to approach its adoption thoughtfully and strategically, as we've been saying throughout, to achieve those desired outcomes that that were kind of setting out to achieve.
00:15:42:18 - 00:16:03:12
I was reading not long ago a McKinsey study that it is from a few years ago, but it cites that of all of the companies functions, marketing perhaps has the most to gain from it. And I think that, you know, when we look at our core activities of understanding customer needs and matching them to products and services and then persuading people to buy, those are all capabilities that AI can dramatically enhance.
00:16:04:00 - 00:16:23:11
But to the kind of previous point, we can't lose sight of the fact that it's a tool and we need to apply critical thinking skills, which is again, the fun part of what we do. So my advice is really get curious, be creative. Generative AI has so much potential to enhance all of that creativity and enable content generation and drive those efficiencies.
00:16:24:19 - 00:16:44:10
Alison: You're so right. And for anyone that I've talked to that's worried about well, I face my role as a marketer. I've always said no. I want a marketer who understands and leverages AI could though. So Amol it's always fun to hear about company is that are doing A.I. well. So I'd love to hear your opinion on from a Canadian in a more global perspective.
00:16:44:10 - 00:17:05:21
Exactly that. Who do you think is doing A.I.? Well, currently?Amol: Yeah. Great question. I think there is, what's so exciting is this is not unique to one industry right now. What we're seeing across our entire customer base, not only in Canada but across the world, is different industries really embracing it and looking for ways to apply it in their core business.
00:17:05:21 - 00:17:31:14
Right? And so, you know, I think about areas within just, you know, CPG as an example. You know, you think Pepsi was one good example where they're taking, you know, machine learning and A.I. to identify consumer shopping trends and, you know, produce real time store level insights. And so when we talked about predictions as an example, that's a way to improve predictions and recommendations considerably leveraging the data that they already have.
00:17:32:01 - 00:17:58:09
You know, one industry is airlines, which, you know, a lot of our frustration is around aircraft turnaround and whether they're on time. Well, you know, leveraging data insights will help that. And we've seen a lot of our global airline customers leveraging technology as it relates to AI to help with that. One great example was CarMax, which is one of our customers and how they use the Azure Open AI Service.
00:17:58:09 - 00:18:27:12
And so think about, you know, they had over 100,000 customer reviews and think about how they need to sell cars. And so leveraging the air, they were able to take those 100,000 plus customer reviews and create short descriptions that surface key takeaways for each make model year of the vehicle, which for a customer is really, really good and helps them make a decision around purchase.
00:18:27:20 - 00:18:54:14
What was really cool, the stat they gave us was it would have taken an individual 11 years to do what AI did in a day, which is phenomenal. Right? And what they what the AI produced was 80% good, which meant they didn't have a lot of intervention. It was pretty much good to go right off the bat. So it helped that, you know, so all of that is to say it helped with the customer experience, it helped with revenue, it helped with increasing SEO.
00:18:54:14 - 00:19:15:17
So all of those core functions that again, we would have spent tons of time executing on, they're able to do in a day. And that was a great example. And then I'll bring in, you know, one of a local company within Canada, which is Viral Nation. And you know, from a pure marketing services perspective, they're doing some really cool things around evolving how companies need to think about marketing.
00:19:15:17 - 00:19:41:06
And so taking the traditional marketing model and underpinning it with more of a modern, AI driven approach around the tech to drive greater impact and innovation as it relates to social brand influencers, etc. They're really changing the game in terms of how we should think about that. And so across all these industries and you know, there's more across health care, across energy, everyone is leveraging this in different ways, which is, which is really cool to see.
00:19:41:13 - 00:20:01:07
Alison: So I'd love to end by asking each of you, what do you see as a key takeaway that you'd like marketers to know about generative AI? Audrey, you want to kick us off? Audrey:
Absolutely. Again, get curious, just embrace it. I think. Try it and to partner up with people within your organization that, as I call our analytics team, are our data geniuses and explore, you know, kind of play in the sandbox.
00:20:01:07 - 00:20:19:02
Alison: Great advice. Amol, What would you add to that? Amol: Yeah, I would just say for everyone to just understand we're at an inflection point. You know, I mentioned it, the breakthroughs and I are going to change the way people work and live. It's really the defining technology of our time. And so really be optimistic about what AI can do.
00:20:19:02 - 00:20:39:08
It is meant to help people industry, society as a whole. Personally, Audrey and I see this every day where, you know, Microsoft's committed to making the promise of AI real and doing it responsibly. And so it's really having that optimistic, curious mindset I talked about earlier on the AI and what it can actually do to help people in the world as a whole.
00:20:39:08 - 00:20:56:17
So that would be my takeaway at a very high level. Alison: Audrey and Amol, you've given us lots to think about, some really great advice and some great actionable ways to embrace and benefit from generative AI. So a great big thank you to both of you for spending time with us today and sharing your expertise that really, really appreciate it.
00:20:56:17 - 00:21:25:05
And I know our listeners and our marketing community are benefiting from it as well. So we're really just starting to understand the potential and the challenges. And I'm certainly excited, as I know both of you are, about how the marketing profession can learn and progress together. So on that note, the CMA has got some terrific generative AI resources that marketers can benefit from that really can complement this conversation and our podcast as well as we've now got a number of thought leadership articles on a wide range of topics on our website.
00:21:25:14 - 00:21:45:15
And we've launched some training as well. So we've got a new series, a new training course this fall that's going to be specific to CMO's and VP's and we're bringing back a training session from the spring that was very successful and that's how I can make you a better marketer. And then we've also got an AI working group and they've introduced a series as well.
00:21:45:15 - 00:22:12:12
So obviously I'm representing the Canadian marketing profession. We're working closely with all of our members and making sure that we can help enable them throughout the journey and I train them all. You've been a big part of that today, having members and thought leaders and expertise like you as part of our broader membership is a really great way to share learning across the profession and enable us to all succeed together. So again, a great big thank you to both of you and I hope you have a good afternoon.
00:22:12:20 - 00:22:33:11
So thanks, Alison. Awesome. Thank you. You too. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA dot Com and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.
EP1 - Reflecting on Cannes 2023 with Susan Irving
11 Jul 2023
00:29:43
Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA and Susan Irving, CMO of Kruger Products L.P., discuss Susan's recent experience as a judge and her ongoing work as jury chair for the Cannes Young Lions competition in Canada at the 2023 Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity.
00:00:02:20 - 00:00:19:08
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.
00:00:22:11 - 00:00:57:06
Alison: So it is an absolute pleasure to welcome Susan Irving, the Chief Marketing Officer from Kruger Products to the CMA Connect podcast today. And Susan, I want to start by welcoming you back from Cannes, and thank you very much for joining us on CMA Connect, while I'm sure you're still managing jet lag and I suspect a very full inbox.
Susan: I'm still on a high from Cannes, it's a pretty magical place, but it's just an incredible, inspirational place to come back and really think about how we can do things differently here in Canada. But not too differently given how well Canadian agencies and partners have done.
00:00:57:18 - 00:01:17:19
Alison: Absolutely. I'm very excited to speak with you today because you really have had two roles at Cannes, which give you a truly unique perspective. So obviously, you were a judge for the Lions sports, but you also were the jury chair for the Cannes Young Lions competition for Canada. And you've been on the Board and a key part of that organization for a number of years.
00:01:18:01 - 00:01:41:21
Alison:
So, very excited to get your perspective on both of those.
Susan: I'm excited to be here and share the learnings because we're very proud of how Canada has done this year.
Alison: So let's start with the judging on the jury for the Entertainment Alliance for Sports.
Susan: I'll tell you right now, I was very excited to be chosen as a member of the jury, and I'm just thrilled that I was able to be in the Entertainment for Sports jury.
00:01:42:06 - 00:02:01:23
Susan: And I'm going to tell you right now, it's not for the faint at heart. They don't tell you that you've got to judge 300 cases before you even get to Cannes. You take bias training, which is just incredible to really understand kind of your biases as you're judging. And you actually also have to judge work from your country and work from your company just so that they can see what's going on on the back end.
00:02:01:23 - 00:02:23:22
So I'm very impressed at how they really have this down to a science to ensure that everything is equitable and fair. So you go through, we had about 300 cases before getting to Cannes. I had a month to get through them. I'd say at least an hour a day. I'd say it probably took 15 minutes per case. And then the week before Cannes, I had to judge another 83 for the short list.
00:02:24:06 - 00:02:46:14
So definitely not for the faint at heart. Arrived on a Friday and then was in the jury room all day Saturday and all day Sunday. We actually had a fire at our hotel on the Friday night. So I was feeling good and went to bed early, but then was on a beach until 3am. But it was a good opportunity to get to know our fellow jury chair and the rest of the jury.
00:02:47:00 - 00:03:22:04
But literally on the Saturday, we had 83 on the short list. We needed to get that short list down to 60 and then even say, you know, are there other cases that you potentially scored a 7 to 9 that could be added back in? And then so once you land on your 60, which took us til about 11:00 at night, the following day, we were in the room from ten until 11, and that was from your short list, deciding how many bronze, how many silver and how many gold, and what happens is, as you decide that you're going to have 20 that come up to bronze, of that 20, 10 come up to silver,
00:03:22:11 - 00:03:47:01
and then of that ten silver, four, well, three go up to gold and then one goes up to Grand Prix. So it's pretty phenomenal. And I think what I learned, you know I always talk about the importance of diversity on a board or diversity on a jury, but the importance of diversity of thought. And what was really impressive about our jury was just hearing the change of perspectives, right?
00:03:47:09 - 00:04:07:05
A case that you may have fallen in love with, listening to a different perspective from someone who comes from a different background and really understanding and having the ability and courage to actually change your mind. And that happened a lot in the jury room, which was really impressive. It was a bucket list for me. I think I've now met friends.
00:04:07:05 - 00:04:27:24
We're still texting and talking about the experience and really bonded and saw each other over the past couple of days, either it was at the press conference or at the awards, and then just bumping into each other and still talking and texting and emailing today on ideas. So I feel like I've got industry friends forever.
Alison: And what are some of the key trends that you saw in the top work that was recognized?
00:04:28:04 - 00:04:51:04
Susan: If I look at the trends, Cannes Young Lions asked all of us to send in our trends that we saw from the work. And I think there's three predominant trends in terms of the work. If you look at Dreamcaster from Michelob, Shout from Overstar or Leah, which is from Kotex. You know, the three big trends, I'd say the first one was the power sport to drive purpose and to do good in the world.
00:04:51:22 - 00:05:12:14
Gone are the days of sports being just about slapping your logo and saying that you sponsor something. Brands are really trying to do good in the world and making a difference to ensure that there's an elevated purpose and you're actually leveraging the power of sport as a platform to make the world a better place. And you really saw that as a focal point in the work.
00:05:13:08 - 00:05:34:11
The second part was D&I woven beautifully into the campaign. So if you look at the Dreamcaster case, it's such a relevant example of someone who's blind, who became a broadcaster, and with the technology of AI and what they were able to do, he was blind and was able to telecast and broadcast the game. And he's still doing that today.
00:05:34:11 - 00:06:09:14
So, you know, although there was actually a diversity and inclusion category, many of the cases just did a heroic job of weaving diversity and inclusion just fluidly throughout their cases. And then the last one, you know, I think we keep talking about AI, but the use of AI in technology, if you look at Dreamcaster as an example, if you look at what they did with Nike and Serena, showing her competing against herself when she was younger to older, there is just this amazing technology and being used for the good.
00:06:09:15 - 00:06:35:11
There was also a Colgate case where they leveraged rugby helmet equipment for people that were deaf. So it was just an amazing way of leveraging sport and making it more inclusive, and leveraging the use of technology to advance the sport as well and an effective use of AI. I think we're all afraid of AI a little bit right now, but some really brilliant examples.
00:06:35:12 - 00:06:58:16
There's another cricket case from Martel, of which it was a famous cricket match, and they were able to use and leverage pictures to retell the match that happened years ago. So just some really brilliant examples of the three trends.
Alison: They're spectacular trends and great examples. And it's when you step back from Cannes and talk about being on the jury that it's clearly very prestigious.
00:06:58:16 - 00:07:15:21
It's a great goal list. So congratulations on accomplishing it. And it can also be the perception that, oh, think about how much fun that will be and it's certainly inspiring. But the intensity to which you describe the amount of work required before you even hop on the plane to go and then the amount of work that you're doing there.
00:07:16:01 - 00:07:37:16
And I'm sure fascinating debates and discussions. But there is an intensity to that that I'm sure has you with some global friends and fellow jurists from around the world that you will be friends with for a very long time. And extended great outcome, too.
Susan: Yeah, it really was a bucket list and something that just over overdelivered on my expectations.
00:07:37:16 - 00:07:59:13
Alison: And I do love, obviously we come from a very diverse country, so it's such an important theme for us and certainly for our Canadian marketing profession. And some of the examples you shared of how other countries and marketers are really embracing that for the betterment of society and their businesses and brands is incredibly motivating as well. So thank you for sharing.
Susan: No problem.
00:08:00:19 - 00:08:17:00
Alison: Now I'd like to hear some of the new learning that you're bringing back from Cannes that you're most excited to put into action.
Susan: Yeah, I'd say, you know, oh my gosh, there's so many trends. If you went to all the speaking engagements that I, I think sums it up probably with five as I went from speaker to speaker.
00:08:17:00 - 00:08:40:20
And, you know, going to the awards shows that I think the number one, a lot of people keep thinking that creativity is gone or brand is gone. But what really shines through in a conference was this continued importance of creativity for good. And, you know, I think what we realize is brands can move the needle when it comes to making the world a better place.
00:08:41:03 - 00:09:18:01
Now you've got to figure out where in the spectrum you fit and the voice that you have and when you should crawl, walk or run. But what I really noticed in a lot of the work, and I think we've all seen it was Always "like a girl", Dove "real beauty". The Leah Kotex spot that was that just won a gold is, you know, brands can really help drive and solve problems not just for consumers but for communities and our planet, you know, community initiatives, inclusivity and sustainability to make the world a better place are really here for the long run.
00:09:18:09 - 00:09:40:02
What was evident to is, I think in past years and because that with Sick Kids did such an incredible job to I'd say, start the trend here in Canada. You know on the longest time it was the not for profits that seem to be having that voice and taking the risk versus the brands that were sticking with functional.
00:09:40:02 - 00:10:01:06
And I'm not saying you shouldn't do functional advertising, but it felt like we really seen a step change in terms of now it's not just the not for profits that brands are figuring out their voice and where they can actually do creative for good in the world and still drive sales because they're leveraging the benefit and the brand can really play in that space.
00:10:02:03 - 00:10:32:21
The second one we talked about technology, and AI are here to say I gave a couple of examples of some winning cases that we saw at Cannes, but it was very evident that although we have not fully figured this out yet, it really is time to dabble and play with it. I went to a session with Google. A couple of sessions were positive, couple of sessions where we're scaring you with A.I. and making sure that you really understand security and making sure that it's safe for the consumer.
00:10:32:21 - 00:10:58:12
But at the end of the day, I think it's time for us all to start dabbling and figuring out how we can leverage AI to make our campaigns even better. The third one is, I'd say post-pandemic. Everything that's been going on recession, inflation, COVID. I think there's been a lot of seriousness in the tone of our advertising. But what you started to see this year was humor again.
00:10:58:12 - 00:11:19:08
You know, there was a great M&M's case about their spokes people and they were fired and then returned. But you really do see that consumers are ready for some humor again. So I think we're going to see a lot more of that moving forward. The fourth one is media tactics and influencers. I mean, it was evident at Cannes this year.
00:11:19:08 - 00:11:44:16
There is obviously the speeches at the palace, but the beats, I mean, tick tock, Snapchat, Pinterest, sports beats, influencers. Tons of the campaigns that were really leveraging the power of the different media tactics as well as influencers. So again, that's here to stay and something that we need to be leveraging. I mean, we've talked about how digital is on the rise, but really an effective use of the different channels.
00:11:45:07 - 00:12:05:13
And then the last one was just to balance of, of the winning work. You know, Kraft Heinz is a great example of everything that Rethinkdid, but just a lot of balance between there was pure functional work, emotional work and then purposeful work. And there was a nice balance of everything. It wasn't just all purpose or it wasn't just all emotional.
00:12:05:18 - 00:12:28:16
It was nice to see just that the balance of the work in terms of functional, emotional and purposeful.
Alison: That's right. I love your call it around air. You're absolutely right that it's changing so quickly. It's expanding so quickly that the best thing we can all do as marketers and as business people is get in and start playing and learning because it will ultimately make us better at what we do from a creativity perspective.
00:12:28:16 - 00:12:59:02
But it has some broader benefits from an overall business perspective as well. And then your Shoutout around brand, too, right? Like so the pendulum has swung very much towards growth marketing and now brands are realizing that purpose-driven and brand-focused work also can connect with consumers and ultimately drive really strong business results as well. So having a balance of both, that's not one or the other really is how do they work together and the best interests of the people that they want to attract and drive the business forward.
00:12:59:10 - 00:13:18:16
Susan: Exactly. I don't think you know, I think that when the Internet came right, when the Internet closed, when people were saying, oh, it's not here to stay, or when Facebook and Pinterest and Instagram, I mean, I think people got a little afraid about that shift from television to digital. But we figured it out. And I think I was kind of in that same, same place.
00:13:19:06 - 00:13:38:22
You know, obviously there's a little bit of angst or what are the job losses going to be? But, you know, at the end of the day, there has to be a human behind it. So if you can start playing with it, figuring it out, and then from that point, figuring out the role that your brand plays with that and the campaigns because there's so much winning work out there.
00:13:39:18 - 00:14:01:05
Alison: When I think of I, it's around the concern around, am I going to lose my job? I know I don't think you're going to lose your job. You could lose your job to a marketer who understands A.I. if you don't embrace it and have the curiosity and the desire to learn and start playing and experimenting and also do remember, it's like it's so new that none of us know where it's going to go.
00:14:01:10 - 00:14:21:04
There's no really such thing as an expert in A.I. So it's early enough that we can all get in and learn together. So if you if you choose to stand on the sidelines, that's going to be the bigger issue.
Susan: Yes. So go play.
Alison: Go play, go play. Absolutely. So once again, Canada performed incredibly well on short lesson with Lions.
00:14:21:11 - 00:14:48:23
And we also had some pretty remarkable Canadian firsts at this year's time. So I'd love to hear what you think Canadian agency and some marketers are doing and why we're doing some of the best work globally.
Susan: Such a proud moment for Canada. And, you know, I remember sitting at the Globe and talking to Andrew Saunders and as they were going through the numbers, I think we were fifth or six last year overall countries.
00:14:48:23 - 00:15:14:10
And if you look at the fact that we're 10% of the US population, we still have far less awards than we do. And we we just we really do. We punch above our weight when it comes to our awards at Cannes. And it gives me goose bumps to say that this is our best year ever. I think the last was in 2018 or 19 where we had 52 lions and 141 short lists.
00:15:14:21 - 00:15:37:21
This year we had 56 lions, which is the highest we have ever had ever. Two of those include our Cannes Young Lions, winners of which we won a silver in film and a gold in marketing.
Alison: The first ever gold
Susan: first ever gold. And we'll talk about that a little later in the in the podcast. But a total of just a couple of stats.
00:15:37:21 - 00:16:02:23
A total of 13 agencies won 56 lions and total of which we won one Grand Prix, which was FCB. We won 12 gold, 22 silver and 19 bronze. And I think what what did I say? I think it was 2002 short list, which is just incredible. 25 shots landed on short lists, of which there was 202.
00:16:02:23 - 00:16:33:06
So just amazing. And the top agencies that led the way for Canada were FCB, Rethink and BBDO. So just an incredible work
Alison: and a great mix of agencies, too. Like it's good representation of our marketplace and certainly the independents as well as some of the Canadian offices of big multinationals.
Susan: Exactly. Just a really nice balance of indie's. And we think I think also one indie agency, I think they came in second behind that, which was just incredible.
00:16:33:13 - 00:16:55:15
So, yeah, Rethink just a powerhouse as well as FCB. And then BBDO did really well in terms of winning the most awards for a top campaign.
Alison: It was there's no doubt that we're a global powerhouse in breaking into the top five is pretty remarkable.
Susan: Yes, it's incredible. And just, you know, the rest of the agencies, I mean, 13 agencies won awards.
00:16:55:15 - 00:17:39:20
So pretty incredible. You know, the second part of your question is just in terms of Canada, and I really believe and saw it, Canada is a powerhouse and we should be really proud of our marketers and our agency partners because, you know, if you see the amount of talent that we export to the US and internationally, I mean, people have thriving careers here in Canada, but, you know, we have marketers in the US that are CMO right now and VP's and head of agencies and now men and predominantly a lot of women and you know you look at Stephen Erlich who's leading Havas, you look at Diana Frost who's leading Canada and
00:17:39:21 - 00:18:06:02
US for Kraft, Sofia Colucci who is now the CMO of Molson Coors, it's just phenomenal. But Jeff Klein who's in charge of Popeye's. I mean, there's so many Canadian talent that are that are out there that are doing great things in the marketplace. I think the other thing is, is that sets us apart is I really feel that Canadians just have the bravery and confidence and boldness.
00:18:06:02 - 00:18:33:05
It's kind of this innate nature. And, you know, I also think it's our innate nature to be inclusive because of the country that we come from and that really showcased in the work. And then on top of that, really our ability to flex from functional to emotional to purposeful. And as I said, that was something that you really saw in our cases and our Lions that were winning work.
00:18:33:05 - 00:18:59:05
There is there was a lot of great kind of one offs, amazing stunts and something that really drove the functional benefit or the, you know, the icon of certain brands. And then you really saw some very powerful emotional and purposeful work. What else? I think I think the other thing when I when I look at the why is, you know, Canada, sometimes you're you're pushed to just lift and shipped from U.S. or global markets.
00:18:59:05 - 00:19:33:20
And I think when we have the opportunity either to create our own, we really try to really put our best foot forward. And I think that sets us apart. I think we're great collaborators and I think agencies and and clients work really well together in Canada. They're not afraid to doing smart, intelligent and brave work. And as I said before, given our Canadian population openness to creating community and culture, we're not afraid at all of embracing D&I, which we saw really shone on the awards at award stage this year at Cannes.
00:19:34:20 - 00:20:04:14
Alison: It's amazing. And you've got a great out around how closely and how much better and more collaboratively Canadian agencies and clients work together. What do you think are some of the reasons behind that?
Susan: I think it's really just the nature of of Canadians being kind and and wanting to get to the best work. And, you know, unless you collaborate and really listen to different points of view, you're not going to get to that to that next level of work.
00:20:05:14 - 00:20:30:00
So I think it's just innate in our nature. And, you know, I think I tease how we force all of our agencies to collaborate together. I think over the years you see a lot of a great idea can come from anywhere and then you play a position. And fundamentally, I just think Canadian marketers want to do really great world work and what agency partner doesn't want to do that as well?
00:20:30:18 - 00:20:54:23
Alison: Absolutely agree. So in addition to your very intense judging role for the Lion Sports at Cannes, you were also this year's jury chair for the Cannes Young Lions competition for Canada. And I know you've been involved with the organization for quite some time and should be very proud of how Canadians young talent has progressed through your leadership. It also gives you a really unique view on our country's emerging creative talent.
00:20:55:13 - 00:21:23:04
And it was certainly a very exciting way to end the weekend for Canada in Cannes last week. So I'd love to hear a bit about what excites you the most about Canada's young creatives.
Susan: Yeah, well, first I you know, I want to thank Mark Childs, who is just an icon in the industry from a marketing perspective. The Globe and Mail and Mark brought me on over ten years ago as a judge on this competition, and it is by far my favorite competition.
00:21:23:05 - 00:21:45:23
I do a lot of judging just to see other works and figuring out insights and how it can apply to my business to make me smarter. But this one is just it's so amazing because it's, you know, you've got to be under 30 in this competition and it's the future generation of Canadian marketers. And I've been fortunate enough to be on it for ten years.
00:21:45:23 - 00:22:11:05
Jury Chair For the past three, we've got a core group that are really pushing and doing the training so that we can be on the podium and thankful for the Global and Mail for being sponsor and advocates for can not just putting the judges forward, but also for this competition. And paying for our competitors to go. If you win the Canadian competition, then the top teams go to Cannes to compete on the global stage.
00:22:11:21 - 00:22:43:04
And what was phenomenal this year is we had a couple of bronzes and in marketing we have never won. And this year we did win, which was just phenomenal. So Ryan and Mike from MLSE won gold, our team and film won silver, and then we were shortlisted for media and digital. So just a phenomenal year for our our young marketers and Mary Diver runs the creative and Kathy Collier is the jury chair for Media Survey.
00:22:43:04 - 00:23:01:14
They do a phenomenal program as well when it comes to the competition. So just thrilled that they just did so well. It's funny when when we were sitting at the awards, Aaron, from Crowdiate, and I was standing there, he's been on the judging on the jury for four years as well.
00:23:02:04 - 00:23:19:02
And when we saw that they were shortlisted, we thought that that was a bad thing, not a good thing. And so we thought they didn't win. But in hindsight, it really meant that they had a chance. So when we saw bronze, we were let down and we saw the short list, but then we saw the bronze and then we saw the silver, and then all of a sudden they won.
00:23:19:13 - 00:23:50:21
I felt like I was a crazy soccer parent. As Aaron and I were jumping over tables and running through the crowd so we could get up there and take a picture and just barged in front of everyone. So that taking center stage to take a picture of our teams. So just I would say that the highlight of my week because you know, these guys work their butts off in Canada, they've got their own job, they do this case, they get a case that they've got to work on for 24 hours and basically the same thing in Cannes, they get a case.
00:23:50:22 - 00:24:30:00
There's a charity. They've got to match their brand to solve the charities problem and then have 5 minutes to present. So it's a lot of work, but obviously a lot of reward.
Alison: Such an outstanding accomplishment just both so well for the young talent we're growing in this country.
Susan: Yeah, it's just incredible. So, you know, and if you look at it from a media perspective, from film, from digital, you know, I think across the agency mix and marketing mix, we should be very proud of of the talents that's going to be the future leaders of Canada and who knows US, local firms…
00:24:30:00 - 00:24:51:00
The sky's the limit for what I can see from this young talent.
Alison: Absolutely. Now, given your long tenure and experience with that organization, I'd love to hear how young creatives and young marketers are approaching the profession and creative differently than other generations.
Susan: I'd say, you know, not that it's old. It's something that we should all be going back to.
00:24:51:03 - 00:25:12:20
You know, I look at a lot of marketers and I think over the years we've gotten into the situation of putting our brands first about what's the brand problem, what's a brand problem with the brand problem? How are we going to grow our brand just because we're so trained that way? What I find different with this generation is they really are putting the consumer first.
00:25:12:20 - 00:25:52:07
They're thinking about, well, what is the consumer problem? And then how can my brand actually help solve the problem for the consumer? And, you know, at the end of the day, that's how we are actually trained as marketers and just watching them compete and the ideas that they're coming up with, it's just so evident in terms of this generation as thinking about others first and then how my brand can solve the problem, which is what's winning it at Cannes right now here, if you look at the work from a purpose perspective, it really is putting the consumer first and then how my brand plays a role within that consumer group.
00:25:52:07 - 00:26:20:16
Alison: It's a great shout out and I will applaud you from Kruger for part of your unapologetically human campaign platform and brand platform. Absolutely does a brilliant job of that. So kudos for that.
Susan: Thank you very. We're very proud of the work and so far, the comments coming in from the industry. But more importantly, we have customers and consumers calling in on our CRC hotline and everything has just been so, so positive.
00:26:20:22 - 00:26:40:23
And you know, it's funny, sometimes you worry about not having a lot of product in the spot, but it's amazing how people are so emotionally drawn to it because they can relate to it and then see how our products are just so well and truly woven, if you will, into the spot.
Alison: Brilliantly done. So what advice would you offer to someone early in their marketing career?
00:26:40:23 - 00:27:03:06
You can have great global experience. You're doing an amazing job leading a Canadian brand. So I'd love to end the podcast with your advice to someone earlier in the marketing career.
Susan: Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing is, is figuring out what you're passionate about. What is your your passion and really turn that into your career and you'll never work a day in your life.
00:27:03:20 - 00:27:27:06
And whether or not you decide to you're a marketer really figure out kind of the type of marketing and the type of company and working for a company that has similar values to yourself. And then secondly, when we were younger, we're in such a rush. We're in such a rush to get promoted and just we're waiting to get to the top of the mountain versus enjoying the journey.
00:27:27:06 - 00:27:50:19
And I know it's a cliché, but it's so true. Just enjoy every single day. And even if you're in a rotation in a role that you don't love, figure out what you're going to learn and what you're going to do differently and find the aspects of that role that you're know you can dig your teeth in and really love and make a difference because it will turn you into a better marketer.
00:27:51:19 - 00:28:17:07
Alison: That's terrific advice. So one final question. Will you be back at Cannes next year?
Susan: I hope so.
Alison: I hope to see you there.
Susan: Yeah, I plan to be there. I think next year it'll be nice. You know, you don't typically judge two years back to back. I'll be excited to be there as jury chair for the Young Lions marketers and on the board advisory board for the Globe and Mail.
00:28:17:07 - 00:28:37:02
But it'll be nice not having so much judging coming up to the competition. But you bet. I hope I actually want to go back next week. It was so phenomenal.
Alison: And I know you were in incredibly consume judging, so you didn't get a chance to take in many of the speakers and presentations. But of the ones you did get do did you have a favorite speaker?
00:28:38:01 - 00:29:05:03
Susan: I'd say probably. Scott Galloway I was he's he's got a love hate relationship with. He's so candid. But I saw him speak a couple of times. The head of marketing at McDonald's was phenomenal as well. Obviously, P&G shares similar great case studies as well. So yeah, those would probably be some of my my top picks.
Alison: That's a great list.
00:29:05:06 - 00:29:25:00
Well, Susan, thank you so much. I really appreciate you making time for us. And coming fresh off the plane from Cannes, I wish we could both go back next week, but I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and very much look forward to see you later this summer.
Susan: That sounds great. And let's plant those cans gathered here next year, Alison!
Alison: That's a brilliant plan.
00:29:25:15 - 00:29:43:08
Thanks, Susan. Thanks, Alison. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA dot com and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.
EP31 - The guide to embracing augmented reality for marketers with Matt McGowan
27 Apr 2022
00:22:21
Our guest on CMA Connect this week is Matt McGowan, Director and General Manager of Snap Inc. Canada, and an active member on the CMA's 'Media Council'. Matt joins John Wiltshire to dig into the topic of augmented reality (AR) in today's media mix.
Journey from the early days of YouTube at Google to today's vertical streaming, AR assisted landscape in Snap
What mobile video was to streaming 12 years ago is what, in 2022, augmented reality is as "the new thing in advertising". We've moved beyond 'helmets', to glasses, to interplay with augmented reality on smartphones. Matt talks about why Snapchat is a camera company: "when you open the app, you open a camera where we empower you to overlay augmented reality; to overlay computing on that world."
Is AR mature enough for marketers to use in reaching their targeted clients? (4:38)
"Yes! You can use augmented reality to entertain yourself, grow some bunny-rabbit ears or dog ears, but you can also use augmented reality to make purchases. Smart cameras with LiDAR sensors can sense depth, size, and so forth. Our Snap camera has something we call 'Fit Tech', which can size you. We've seen AR take off with apparel companies and retailers."
Where does AR fit in the marketing mix? (8:46)
"At Snap, we have a self-serve ads manager very much like our peers. You create an account, put in a credit card, and you're off to the races. You can upload your vertical video from other platforms, as well as your augmented reality. Outside of the ads manager, we also have software called 'Lens Studio' which is like a new version of Adobe Photoshop that is much easier to use for non-designers. If you drop a lens alongside your Snap ads, you're likely to see 40% incremental reach. There's a definite upside to using AR."
'In 2025, will AR be baked into everything we do as marketers?' (16:03)
"There's a lot of chat right now about augmented reality versus virtual reality. We truly believe that layering computing on the world in front of you, or 'augmenting reality' is the right approach. In 1998, cell phones had just started to hit the market. That phone has evolved so much over the decades. I firmly believe that evolution isn't going to stop all of a sudden."
Tune into this episode of 'CMA Connect' for the full conversation between Matt McGowan and John Wiltshire.
EP30 - Fostering powerful marketing partnerships with Scott Megginson and Peter Rodriguez
20 Apr 2022
00:31:17
Our guests on CMA Connect this week are an accomplished marketing duo: Scott Megginson, President of Kantar, Canada and Peter Rodriguez, CMO and Founder of Brand Igniter. We chat about all things partnerships.
The relationship with a relaxed conversation
The riveting story of how Scott and Peter met over throat lozenges and went on to form a partnership between insights and brand management. And how many great partnerships like this one start with three things: a true respect for the areas of expertise each partner brings, the ability to build on each other's strengths, and a good challenge that helps align the organization.
How can marketers foster powerful partnerships that would benefit brands?
Scott Megginson talks about how excellent partnership templates exist in a number of sectors, particularly ones that really invest in consumer insights. This includes sectors like technology and financial services.
The challenges of globalization and regionalization
"There is a big push to standardize things and centralize. Let's say, out of the US and then go from there, as opposed to finding success wherever in the world, and then testing that success outside of that market to expand it. The strategy that Scott and I put together grew a category that no one thought could grow anymore, because of the way it was measured. It had 70% market share; how are you going to grow that? Well, only if you break all of those patterns around it, and stop thinking in a way that is limiting" - Peter Rodriguez
The paradox of cost-cutting measures
Why cost-cutting (like advertising cuts) may mean a brand is cashing in permanently on brand equity, which may have been built over many years. Scott talks about how this may be a reason we see "many commoditized brands in the market now, not brands who could really demand a huge premium, because we've really gone beyond the point of no return with the cutbacks that we've made."
Tune into this episode of 'CMA Connect' for the full conversation between Scott Megginson, Peter Rodriguez, and John Wiltshire.
EP24 - The Road to Paris 2024 with Jacqueline Ryan
23 Jul 2024
00:29:50
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Jacqueline Ryan,CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation and Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee. Jacqueline shares her passion for sports and the Foundation's crucial role in supporting Canada's elite athletes. With the Paris 2024 Olympic Games approaching, they discuss the success of Canada's female athletes and reveal how Canadians can rally behind Team Canada.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:16 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.
00:00:22:18 - 00:00:45:12 Alison Welcome to a special and timely episode of CMA Connect. With the Paris Olympics just around the corner, I'm absolutely thrilled to bring you an inside look at the Canadian Olympic Committee's preparations and the exciting prospects for Team Canada at the upcoming games. Joining us today is Jacquie Ryan. She's the CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation and Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee.
00:00:45:14 - 00:01:17:16 Alison Jacquie is one of the most influential and effective leaders in sport. Her impressive career spans over 20 years, leading strategy, brand, communications, sponsorship, loyalty programs, digital marketing, corporate social responsibility and sustainability in sports in the financial services sector. She's also held board roles, including her current position as a CMA Board director. Jacquie brings a unique perspective to her role not only as a seasoned sport marketing executive, but also as someone with a deeply personal connection to the Olympic movement.
00:01:17:18 - 00:01:43:03 Alison After growing up in an Olympic family, and her sister's experience as an Olympic athlete, this really fuelled Jacquie's lifelong passion for sport and her commitment to supporting Canadian athletes on the global stage. In our episode today, Jacquie is sharing insights on the Canadian Olympic Committee's marketing and sponsorship strategies and how they're collaborating with partners to create impactful campaigns that will resonate with Canadians while also driving business results.
00:01:43:05 - 00:02:06:19 Alison We're also going to explore the Team Canada Impact Agenda, a critical social impact program that reflects the Canadian Olympic Committee's commitment to fostering safe, inclusive and barrier-free sports environments for all. And we'll dive into the outlook for Team Canada in Paris, and the athletes poised to make their mark. This discussion promises to be a fascinating behind the scenes look at the incredible work being done by the Canadian Olympic Committee.
00:02:06:21 - 00:02:08:08 Alison So welcome, Jacquie.
00:02:08:10 - 00:02:14:02 Jacquie Thank you Alison. Great pleasure to be here today. I'm so excited to chat with you today about it.
00:02:14:04 - 00:02:18:07 Alison I really appreciate you taking time in what has to be a remarkably busy schedule.
00:02:18:09 - 00:02:20:19 Jacquie It is indeed.
00:02:20:21 - 00:02:30:23 Alison So I'd love to kick it off by asking, what attracted you to the role of CEO at the Canadian Olympic Committee? And how has your lifelong passion for sport shaped your career journey?
00:02:31:01 - 00:02:51:18 Jacquie Thanks, Alison, and thanks for asking. Yes, I am just so fortunate to be in the position I'm in. What attracted me to the role? You know, it really comes from, you've already mentioned it, just a lifelong passion for sport. I do come from a sports oriented family. We grew up doing lots of different sports together. The one common thread for our family was skiing.
00:02:51:19 - 00:03:12:18 Jacquie So we spent a lot of time together doing that, to the extent that my sister ended up excelling in skiing and becoming an Olympic athlete in freestyle skiing. So I had that really unique purview of seeing how hard and how dedicated, how committed these athletes are on their journey, and all the resources and supports it takes to get there.
00:03:12:19 - 00:03:33:21 Jacquie So that's kind of the purview I come from. And then that in addition to just really enjoying being in a sporting environment, I found my way after university in Banff teaching skiing and hadn't quite decided what I wanted to do with my life. I didn't know what to do. I actually didn't know that jobs existed in sports and sports marketing.
00:03:33:23 - 00:04:01:01 Jacquie I knew very little about that aspect of the business, but I knew what I loved to do. So I went from out west, came back to Toronto, had very, very fortunate opportunities to work at some of the best sports marketing agencies in the country - Lang and Associates, MacLaren Momentum. And then one day I received a call where there was a six month contract available at RBC to work on the Olympics. And it was a contract.
00:04:01:02 - 00:04:44:01 Jacquie No, no, necessarily long-term commitment, but I just couldn't resist. So packed my bags, went up the street, ended up at RBC on this contract. Well the contract turned into full- time employment. I ended up staying there for 12 years and really just an incredible experience. I had Olympics as part of my portfolio the whole time. I did some other things community marketing, product marketing, RBC Foundation, but really the largest thing I did and the most exciting thing that I got to do with my team there, was to write the business case to acquire the Vancouver 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games sponsorship, and then to launch the marketing activities around that, the Olympic torch
00:04:44:01 - 00:05:11:18 Jacquie relay, taking that across the country from coast to coast to coast. And we really enjoyed our time on that portfolio and really drove really incredible business and brand results for the organization. So really, really proud of that effort and what a journey it was. So I was loving my time at RBC and then got a call about this wonderful opportunity at Scotiabank to go over and be the Vice President of Sponsorship, Partnerships and Philanthropy.
00:05:11:18 - 00:05:33:15 Jacquie So I did a few different things there. I worked on the Scene program there, philanthropy portfolio, and then ultimately, pretty much the last thing I did before I left was work on the Scotiabank Arena deal, which again, really tapped into my experience having been at RBC in terms of how to write a business case for a very large marketing investment. And so we put the business case together,
00:05:33:20 - 00:06:06:17 Jacquie we pitched for the rights and and the rest is history, as they say. So really proud also of that. So again, enjoying my time. And then was offered the opportunity to come over to the Canadian Olympic Committee. And based on everything I've just said in my background, I think it's pretty obvious why I said, absolutely, I'm coming. So I came over in 2019 as the Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee, and that means my team really oversees the marketing partnerships, digital, brand marketing events, sustainability and business development.
00:06:06:18 - 00:06:41:01 Jacquie So we're responsible for for driving all of the sponsorship and the revenue for the organization. So started that in 2019 and then in 2021 was then offered, additionally, the opportunity to take on a CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. So I have both jobs. I love absolutely everything I do. I really, it's been a wonderful journey and I think hopefully it helps to sort of illustrate just really following your passion and how my passion for sports is really connected with, you know, my interests around marketing and being really purpose-led to make sure that the work I do is mission-driven and really makes an impact in Canada.
00:06:41:01 - 00:06:45:16 Jacquie So really, that's how I got here and it's been a pretty amazing journey.
00:06:45:18 - 00:07:11:00 Alison That really is a remarkable journey. And I also love the fact that you took a bet on yourself and what it led to, like leaving a full time job not just for a contract, but for six month contract and look at the reward. And that's such a great lesson for everyone listening at any stage in our career. So the Canadian Olympic Committee plays a crucial role in supporting Team Canada's athletes, as well as working with sponsors to create impactful marketing campaigns.
00:07:11:00 - 00:07:23:21 Alison And you clearly have been on the other side of that as a sponsor with really strong business results. I'd love you to walk us through how the COC collaborates with its marketing partners to drive their business schools, while also advancing the Olympic movement.
00:07:23:23 - 00:07:41:22 Jacquie We're really proud of this work, really proud of the marketing partners that we get to collaborate with every day. I mean, I think what's really important to point out and not many people know this, is that the Canadian Olympic Committee is largely privately funded. And what I mean by that is the majority of the revenue that comes into the organization,
00:07:41:22 - 00:08:05:09 Jacquie the overwhelming majority, is from our marketing partners, our sponsors. And so they sponsor our organization, we provide marketing rights, etc., and ultimately, what's also important to point out is as a not-for-profit, the majority of the dollars that came in from our marketing partners go right back as an investment into the sports system. And so it's a, it's a really important relationship
00:08:05:09 - 00:08:27:16 Jacquie we have with our marketing partners. And we're proud of our marketing partner family. These are the top brands in Canada. We are in very good company, whether that be RBC, Canadian Tire, Lululemon, Bell, Sobeys, Air Canada, Petro Canada, the list goes on and on. And these are not only top brands in Canada, they're a pleasure to work with.
00:08:27:16 - 00:09:01:00 Jacquie They're also the top marketers in Canada. So it's an interesting relationship because again, they're playing a key role in strengthening the sport system and supporting our Olympic athletes, while at the same time they have access to a really unique marketing platform. The Canadian Olympic Committee is the number one national sports property in Canada. And what drives that is that we have incredible reach - 75% of Canadians engage with Team Canada and the Canadian Committee throughout the games.
00:09:01:00 - 00:09:28:05 Jacquie They engage many ways, but in particular through broadcast and digital. So our property provides an exclusive and a universal platform. And when I say that exclusive, I mean that when you come on the Canadian Olympic Committee as a partner, you're exclusive in that category. So you absolutely own it relative to your competitors. So you've got this point of distinction and then it's universal because again, 75% of Canadians are actively engaged with Team Canada.
00:09:28:07 - 00:09:58:23 Jacquie And so it really is an interesting platform that has this massive reach. And it connects Canadian's passions with a greater purpose. And, you know, that's all about investing in Olympians on their journey to the podium. A big part of our mission is focused on our purpose, and our purpose is to transform Canada through the power of sport. So we're super fortunate to, again, have these partners that are aligned with our values and really embrace our mission.
00:09:58:23 - 00:10:22:00 Jacquie And I mean, the list is long. I can highlight, certainly I'm very proud of, I'm wearing it today, Lululemon our partner. So they are responsible for the team Canada Lululemon kit. And what that means, it's what the athletes wear when they go to games. And so we launched that kid on April 16th. And it's a kit that's arrived in store on April 16th and online,
00:10:22:04 - 00:10:41:20 Jacquie but it took years to get there. The... everything that the athletes wear, the Lululemon works with the athletes individually and with a few different athletes to figure out what clothing is best serving their needs when they're at games. I'll just highlight one other because again, the list is long. RBC Training Ground is another really important program.
00:10:42:01 - 00:11:02:08 Jacquie And it's it's much more than a marketing program. They talk about it of course, in their marketing communications, but it's all about identification of athletes who have the potential and investing in those athletes on their journey. So they work directly with the national sporting organizations across the country. It's going into its 10th season, and the success stories go on and on.
00:11:02:08 - 00:11:21:05 Jacquie Whether it be Kelsey Mitchell, Pierce LePage, these are athletes that started an RBC training ground and made it all the way to the Olympic Games and came home with with medals. So there's lots of athletes have gone through the program. We're very, very proud of the program and proud to partner with RBC again to have such an impact on the sport system in Canada.
00:11:21:05 - 00:11:32:04 Jacquie So those are just two examples of a very, very long list. But hopefully that helps illustrate how deep our partners go in terms of their investments and building wonderfully engaging marketing programs.
00:11:32:06 - 00:11:58:20 Alison Thanks so much, Jacquie. And I'm very excited, as one of the 75% of Canadians who call ourselves fans of the Olympics, to see the marketing come to life. Now you join the Canadian Olympic Committee in the pandemic. So definitely a unique time to be starting a role. And your first two games had some truly unique challenges as well. So now you're heading into your third Olympics and it will be the first full on Olympics post-pandemic.
00:11:59:02 - 00:12:06:02 Alison I'd love to hear what are you most excited about? And also what's the outlook for Team Canada in Paris?
00:12:06:04 - 00:12:30:13 Jacquie Yes. What a time it's been. And having joined it to your point in in August of 2019 is when I joined, so got to work, I learned a lot, a lot about the business. I kept thinking, oh my gosh, there's just so much to take in here, how am I ever going to learn it all? Then the pandemic hit, and as an organization, we were actually the first organization to to the first country actually indicate that we're just not comfortable sending the athletes to the games.
00:12:30:13 - 00:12:50:19 Jacquie The athletes themselves are not comfortable. They're much more concerned with ensuring their communities and their country is safe and healthy. So looking back, Tokyo and Beijing, both games in the Covid context and then they were back to back. So the game should have been in 2020 and 2022. And they were in fact 2021 and then 2022 literally like however many months later?
00:12:50:21 - 00:13:18:06 Jacquie So it was quite something. Summer and Winter games, you know the resilience of these athletes just incredible. You know, coming from the most adverse conditions, no training conditions. The, you know, the women and the men couldn't even get in the pool. Unless they had a pool in their backyard, there was no training happening for days and days and days and months and in other areas of the world, there was and so these athletes just persevered through and they performed so well.
00:13:18:07 - 00:13:47:18 Jacquie And so the results are something for all Canadians to be really, really proud of and for Tokyo for example, 24 medals, which is one of our best ever and really looking to eclipse that this year in Paris. And, you know, another part that I really do like to talk about, and really important part of the story is that of the medals won in Tokyo and Beijing, in Tokyo, 75% of the medals won for Canadians were women, for Beijing, 55%.
00:13:48:00 - 00:14:07:14 Jacquie And this is unprecedented. This is just really something to be proud of. And, you know, as a result of all of that, is these women incredibly inspiring that what we saw was increased fan engagement with women athletes and women's sports overall, and that that's through our channels. And, you know, I think that's really important, it's certainly very relevant today.
00:14:07:14 - 00:14:39:03 Jacquie There's lots of discussion about women and sports and and investing in women in sports and celebrating their successes. And we've put female athletes front and centre in our brand, marketing. We tell their stories. We tell their stories through our digital channels. And we've really seen female athletes become the face of of Team Canada and among other sport properties in Canada and, you know, importantly, when we talk about the business of sport, in the business of investing in women in sport, these women have signed lucrative sponsorship deals.
00:14:39:03 - 00:15:07:22 Jacquie This is a virtuous circle. So ultimately investing in women's sport drives on-field success, which drives viewership, inspiration, audience and drives participation. I'm inspired by these athletes. I start to participate. That drives brand value for these marketing partners that I'm talking about, which then leads back to partnership investment, which drives back to investing in women in sports. So we've really proven the model that by investing in women over the years,
00:15:07:22 - 00:15:27:15 Jacquie for Team Canada, it's absolutely driving results in all aspects of of the virtuous circle. So something to be proud of. and so, you know, we're doing women have done well. Men have done well as well. There's so many incredible athletes to get excited about for Paris and lots of good stories, you know. So it's it's hard to pick who to talk about.
00:15:27:15 - 00:15:46:12 Jacquie I'll highlight just a few that I'm excited to watch in Paris. So of course Summer McIntosh in the pool, Maggie MacNeil, Penny Oleksiak, Josh Lindo. So there's a tremendous amount of Team Canada strength in the pool this year. Women's three-on-three basketball. This is new to the games. And the Canadian team is number one in the world.
00:15:46:12 - 00:16:10:00 Jacquie I think right now. The NBA players are going to be dominating men's basketball. So that's definitely something exciting to watch. Breaking as they call it, which is breakdancing is new to the Paris Olympic Games. And Phil Wizard, a Canadian, is number one in the world right now. Skylar Park in tae kwon do. She's amazing to watch. Andre De Grasse is always a fan favourite, so can't wait to see him in the 100 metre.
00:16:10:02 - 00:16:20:04 Jacquie Melissa and Brandie in beach volleyball. So the list is long and we're looking super strong. And so I'm really, really excited about seeing the athletes perform in Paris.
00:16:20:06 - 00:16:39:17 Alison That's incredible. I did not know the women's stats from the last two games, and you and I have acted on a bunch of levels, including the powerful role in sport in our lives. And I certainly didn't have the number of female role models that Canada is producing today. And we think about the the short term and the long term positive ripples of that.
00:16:39:17 - 00:16:49:05 Alison It's incredibly inspiring. So thank you very much for sharing that. And I didn't realize breaking had made it into the Olympic sport. So you've giving me something else to tune in to to.
00:16:49:06 - 00:17:13:16 Jacquie Absolutely. And maybe I'll just touch a little bit on our marketing campaign while we're at it, because Phil Wizard is in our brand marketing campaign this year. So every Olympic Games year, the Canadian Olympic Committee launches a brand campaign. We do consider our job to to really be first in the market from a marketing perspective, set the stage for the narrative around the games that are upcoming so that our marketing partners, when they start to launch their campaigns, they don't have to do the heavy lifting.
00:17:13:16 - 00:17:34:11 Jacquie We've already set the stage. And so we did launch our campaign halfway through April. And, you'll see Phil Wizard in there, Skyler Park, as I mentioned. And our so our campaign this year is called Brave is Unbeatable. And ultimately it's a campaign about the obstacles that Team Canada athletes have to overcome to achieve to achieve greatness.
00:17:34:11 - 00:18:06:08 Jacquie It's about the power of perseverance and commitment. It's about what's inside, and it's about what we don't see that pushes us past our limits towards success and glory. So this campaign showcases Team Canada athletes, all of the various obstacles that they've overcome. And it just really reminds Canadians, remind us, reminds us that we all have our own unique set of obstacles and circumstances and when we overcome them, we can really inspire that next generation and really tap into that sense of bravery.
00:18:06:10 - 00:18:29:12 Jacquie And so, interestingly enough, so we developed the campaign and we thought, wouldn't it be amazing to have voiceover talent of Canadians who, in fact, have also overcome their own obstacles? So we shot for the stars. And we asked Michael J. Fox to be the voiceover for the English campaign and Celine Dion to be the voice of our French campaign.
00:18:29:14 - 00:18:54:03 Jacquie And so lob some calls over and amazing to hear, proud to say, they donated their time to be the voice over talent on our advertising, on our brand campaign. So I think that just speaks to the power of Team Canada. and really just so proud to have that that tie back to, to Canadians to, to really represent that we all have obstacles in our lives and to just be inspired by Michael J.
00:18:54:03 - 00:18:59:09 Jacquie Fox and Celine, in addition to all the athletes, is a campaign we're really, really proud of.
00:18:59:11 - 00:19:05:02 Alison I didn't realize your voiceover talent. That is such a great addition to what will be a very, very powerful campaign.
00:19:06:23 - 00:19:24:09 Alison So, Jacquie, you have two distinct roles within the Canadian Olympic Organization. So as CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation, I'd love you to talk about how the dual role allows you to further advance the foundation's mandate and support Team Canada's success.
00:19:24:11 - 00:19:48:12 Jacquie Thank you for asking that question, because the Canadian Olympic Foundation also plays a very, very key role to your point around the success of the athletes. So the Canadian Olympic Foundation, our job is really we're the philanthropic arm of the Olympic Movement in Canada. So our job is to fundraise for the needs of Team Canada. So we work directly with the Canadian Olympic Committee.
00:19:48:15 - 00:20:11:11 Jacquie And I have two jobs, so I work for both. But ultimately our job is to work with them to understand where the funding requirements are. And then we go to the market and we fundraise. And so what's interesting to point out is the Canadian Olympic Foundation is really the opportunity for individual Canadians to get involved. So I mentioned before that marketing partners really drive the business of the Canadian Olympic Committee.
00:20:11:13 - 00:20:42:23 Jacquie While, individual Canadians, real nation builders, those are the people that drive investment in the Canadian Olympic Foundation because we have a joint purpose. We're trying to transform Canada through the power of sport, as I mentioned before, and we are the only foundation in Canada that raises funds to support athletes at all stages of their Olympic journey. And so by working in lockstep with the Canadian Olympic Committee, which is a pretty unique relationship, the way we work together in sport and philanthropy, we focus on four very distinct pillars.
00:20:42:23 - 00:21:01:12 Jacquie One of them is sport excellence. So it's all about ensuring that they have the funding and resources to excel in their sport. One's pathway development. So the pathway to the podium, there very, very many stages on the way there. And how can we help support that in terms of training, competition needs, next generation athletes who are looking for that kind of support.
00:21:01:17 - 00:21:08:17 Jacquie There's athlete and coach enhancements and then there's the Team Canada Impact agenda, which is our social impact platform.
00:21:08:18 - 00:21:22:00 Alison That's great. Now you mentioned the Team Canada Impact agenda. And I know it's a critical part of COC strategy. So I would love you to share more about the Social Impact program and how it comes to life for athletes, as well as for all Canadians.
00:21:22:02 - 00:21:51:09 Jacquie We've always been purpose-led, and we just saw an opportunity to really define that a little bit further and make sure that this investment I've been talking about, whether it be from partners or donors, work as efficiently and as hard as it can to drive impact. and so the Team Canada Impact agenda is our commitment to ensure a safe, inclusive and barrier -free sport system so that more young people play and stay in sport.
00:21:51:11 - 00:22:18:18 Jacquie Those two words are very intentional - play and stay. And I say that because it's important that as an organization, we can help inspire access to sport. There are communities that just simply don't have access. And then I say, remember, play and stay. Stay is another intentional word because sometimes young people have an opportunity to enter the sport system, but there are conditions in there that cause them to leave, or there are conditions financially that cause them to leave.
00:22:18:20 - 00:22:54:13 Jacquie So we really are making a commitment to make sure that, so we invest in this area. and so what that means is that we're really going to drill down and ensure that we're creating impact and measuring it. And there are three key areas in which we do that. And they are podium, play and planet. So from a podium perspective, ultimately this is making sure that we help athletes pursue their dreams through a safe, inclusive and barrier-free sports system and that that the podium represents Canadians, that it is diverse and representative of who we are as a nation.
00:22:54:15 - 00:23:16:23 Jacquie From a play perspective, this is very much about inspiring young people to play and stay, so it's about access and creating conditions so that young people want to stay in sport. And the last one is planet. There is no sport that is immune to climate change. And we really, really need to ensure that we're taking a leadership position to preserve our sporting environments.
00:23:17:00 - 00:23:38:21 Jacquie So that's what the Team Canada Impact Agenda is all about. It's about feeding the sport system and achieving impact, and it's about investing in the future of sport in Canada. And so that's what it's all about. It's really, it's it's a social impact agenda. But it's absolutely anchored in the strategy, the business strategy of the Canadian Olympic Committee overall.
00:23:38:21 - 00:23:53:09 Jacquie So you'll see a lot more investment in that area. And you'll see us reporting on results and and seeing how we're doing in terms of driving these results from a podium, play and planet perspective.
00:23:53:11 - 00:24:10:23 Alison That's outstanding. Jacquie, thank you so much for sharing all aspects of that and how it certainly fits within the overall strategy and is a great way to also get more to our country and the athletes. Now, there will be lots of Canadians joining you in Paris for the Games. and there will be lots of us who aren't able to join in person.
00:24:11:00 - 00:24:21:00 Alison So I would love to hear some ways that those of us that won't be enjoying the Games in person can really engage with Team Canada and help support our athletes during Paris.
00:24:21:02 - 00:24:40:15 Jacquie So we host Canada Olympic House in Paris and what that is, it's a home away from home for the athletes, and their families and Canadians and whoever else wants to join us. So the doors are open to the public. You know, there's viewing stations with CBC. We're partnering with CBC and Radio Canada in Canada Olympic House. They'll be live from there every single day.
00:24:40:17 - 00:25:00:00 Jacquie And so, you know, you can come to Canada Olympic House, you can enjoy some Canadian fare. You can engage with some of our marketing partner activations. You can meet some athletes, you can watch the games on TV. And so it's going to be quite, quite a unique experience. And then we have somewhere for athletes and their families to get together and really enjoy the Olympic moment.
00:25:00:01 - 00:25:24:02 Jacquie So that's Canada Olympic House, that's in Paris. Back here in Canada, lots going on? Again, make sure to tune in to CBC Radio-Canada to watch the Games. They're a very important partner of ours. Also wanted to mention Team Canada FanFest. This is new this year. We haven't done this before. But we will be hosting these events in Toronto, Calgary and Montreal rolling over three weekends.
00:25:24:04 - 00:25:45:12 Jacquie And really, Team Canada Fan Fest is about bringing fans together to cheer on Team Canada to celebrate the success of the athletes and create opportunities for connection in your community to to support. And then again, there's always lots of content to engage with, so you can follow Team Canada on social media. Again, please tune in to CBC and Radio-Canada,
00:25:45:12 - 00:26:20:16 Jacquie their coverage. You can engage by making a donation to the Canadian Olympic Foundation and there's lots of fan engagement opportunities through, checking out our channels for content around schedules and results and Athlete Profiles and deep dives into real time, reactionary content from the Games. We're on TikTok. We're on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, X, go to Olympic.ca. Download the Team Canada app for lots of lots of interactive opportunities and staying in touch with real time, real time results and then look out for the Brave is Unbeatable campaign.
00:26:20:16 - 00:26:42:21 Jacquie We're really, really proud of that. you'll see interactive ads, digital outdoor print and really hear firsthand from the athletes in terms of how their story is brave, is unbeatable. So and lastly, actually, we're launching a podcast, Team Canada podcast. It's called Momentum. And there you can learn about the stories of some of the women of Team Canada as they head to Paris and hear all about their journey there.
00:26:42:23 - 00:27:03:18 Alison Lots of ways to engage. I'll definitely be, participating in Fan Fest and really appreciate you sharing. And I love the new podcast. I'm a voracious podcast listener, so I will definitely be tuning into Momentum. Now to wrap up our discussion, I'd love to have you share one piece of advice for marketers who are really looking to build purpose-driven brands and create meaningful impact through sport.
00:27:03:20 - 00:27:25:05 Jacquie Thank you for that question. You know, I often get asked about advice for marketers and, look, I'm I'm super happy to share. I think you'll see a common thread as I've spoken about today, just really for me, it's it's proven very fruitful to just lean into your passion and your purpose. There are lots of opportunities out there.
00:27:25:06 - 00:27:45:16 Jacquie You just feel like you do a better job when you care, when you're passionate about it, and when you feel like you're making a difference. And I've been very fortunate to have every single job I've ever had, or I had that opportunity. And I'm really, really proud of that. And I think also, if you noticed in my thread, I didn't know what I wanted to do.
00:27:45:17 - 00:28:02:21 Jacquie I went to university, had a great time, taught skiing. That was fun too, but I just kept following my passion and I ended up where I ended up, you know? So not quite the straight path that other people are able to tap in right away. I just didn't know. And I just followed my passion. So I think that's important.
00:28:02:21 - 00:28:26:09 Jacquie I think I'd also say your career is very, very long and don't rush. Just take your time, find what matters to you. And then ultimately, we're all in this together. So be kind, be vulnerable, be curious about other people and the work you're doing. And I know that you'd be very, very proud of the impact you make if you approach your days from that perspective.
00:28:26:11 - 00:28:41:14 Alison That is such great advice. And when you think back to your opening, like being open to trying new things, betting on yourself. You wouldn't have discovered the career you had if you hadn't pursued your passion and then been open to and raising your hand to say sure I'll try that.
00:28:41:16 - 00:28:45:21 Jacquie Yeah. Well said Alison. Yeah. Thank you, thank you I really appreciate it.
00:28:45:21 - 00:29:12:10 Alison Now Jacquie, you've been incredibly generous with your time. You've given us many, many ways to engage with the Paris Olympics and to really cheer on all of our athletes and looking forward to some great medal counts. Also really looking forward to seeing all of the amazing activations and marketing from the CoO, as well as all of your sponsors. You're collectively having an absolutely massive and positive impact on Canada as a country, and certainly Canada from an athletic point of view.
00:29:12:10 - 00:29:14:09 Alison So a sincere thank you.
00:29:14:11 - 00:29:23:06 Jacquie Thank you Alison, it's been my sincere pleasure and looking forward to engaging with Team Canada athletes on July 26th, when the opening ceremony begins.
00:29:23:08 - 00:29:25:23 Alison Perfect. I will be tuning in for that as well.
00:29:32:00 - 00:29:44:15 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.
EP29 - Why Connected TV matters with Karen Zuccala
13 Apr 2022
00:18:36
Today's guest on 'CMA Connect' is Karen Zuccala, Head of Brand Strategy for Google. Our host John Wiltshire, and Karen, take an in-depth look at connected TV, and how it's impacting media investments.
Why should marketers consider Connected TV?
"Connected TV enables brands to have the best of both worlds: The big screen impact of TV, but with the precision and control of digital. And YouTube really brings together the power of reach, relevance and the world's most connected ad ecosystem."
The importance of meeting your audiences where they are.
For marketers, Karens says it comes down to really knowing where your audience is, and where they are spending their time. It doesn't have to be either YouTube or traditional broadcast. Brands need to consciously consider the right media mix that mirrors where their target audiences are engaging.
How can marketers keep up to rapidly changing consumer experience expectations?
"It's fair to say that for over 60 years, nothing has really changed in the world of media. I love to think about the analogy of what's happened to the evolution of the phone. It started with the rotary phone, and then it moved to the cordless phone, and then came the cell phone, and now the smartphone that we use today. I think what we're going through right now in this revolution of the TV screen is really the same journey the phone once took."
What metrics are relevant?
"The metrics we use to measure connected TV are actually very similar to what we use to measure any type of video campaign. Views, unique users reached, frequency, and brand lift. We know that ad over exposure and frequency is an issue on broadcast. With connected TV, we're able to effectively manage ad frequency across a brand's target audience, which brings in a whole new level of efficiency to advertising."
Tune into this episode of 'CMA Connect' for the full conversation between Karen Zuccala and John Wiltshire.
EP28 - Retail media's flywheel of investment with Dana Toering
06 Apr 2022
00:26:50
Today, on CMA Connect, we bring you Vice President of Walmart Connect Canada Dana Toering. Dana specializes in the world of data in marketing, having worked with brands like Adobe, AOL Canada, Accenture Interactive, and fun fact: Kanye West.
John and Dana dig into a case study of Walmart Connect, with some of the strategies and thinking behind the program.
"I always talk about this sort of virtuous flywheel of investment that retail media provides partners, in the sense that, we work with the vendors that sell products on the shelves at Walmart, they invest their dollars with us, and we try through our solutions and channels to leverage our first party data to drive great ROI"
Partnership and collaboration channels in retail
"Since the mid 70s, retailers have been working with merchants, vendors and suppliers, to provide them opportunities to connect with customers, in their stores, in the form of advertising in the form of trade investment, and this (Walmart Connect) is a natural evolution of that for the age of connectivity."
What's the quid pro quo for consumers to actually share their data with retailers?
"I think the key is how we use the mountain of purchase level data we have that is both ecommerce driven, as well as from retail locations. We understand what consumers are buying, when they're buying it, what their basket composition looks like. As we start to create a view of this customer our goal is not to hound them around the internet with ads; our goal is to make their experience better, and provide them offers on behalf of brands, in those moments."
Retail trends - what Dana sees coming in the next few years that will bring together the online and offline world
"I think you're going to see a lot more digital signage in stores. Customers tend to wait a little bit, either they're waiting for the butcher to cut their meat, or their prescription. So there's an opportunity there to create a content experience, and then feather in ads."
For all of this and more about the opportunities and the obstacles that marketers face around the collection and use of consumer data, tune into this episode of CMA Connect.
EP27 - The ever-changing landscape of B2B digital marketing with guest host Jeff Lancaster, Linda Hazzan, and Andrew Au
23 Mar 2022
00:27:50
Today, on CMA Connect, we bring you highlights from last year's CMAb2b panel. This roundtable was held one year into the pandemic. Almost exactly a year ago. Listen in on how businesses shifted their focus.
The panel includes our moderator and guest host for the day, Jeff Lancaster from LinkedIn. He is joined by Linda Hazzan, Director of Communications and CMO of the Toronto Public Library, and Andrew Au, President of Intercept Group, a digital marketing agency.
"The Toronto Public Library is the biggest and busiest library in North America, with 100 branches that 75% of our staff work out of. One thing that's been an impact for us from a marketing and communications perspective is a narrowing of communication channels. We've shifted to completely digital and a lot of our customers aren't comfortable on digital channels. We did not have sufficient tools and mechanisms or even practices to be communicating with each other that way. The other is the development of several non traditional partnerships. We partnered with food banks and turned our closed branches into community food banks, with our staff providing support. We also developed partnerships to distribute internet connectivity kits." - Linda Hazzan
The rise of consumer-centric, marketing-led business (9:43)
"Intercept is a b2b agency. We focus on the global tech industry. One thing we observed is that improving customer experiences has been key. If you want to be customer centric, you've got to be marketing-led, and I think for the first time we saw marketing step up and really take charge." - Andrew Au
Finding standard organizational definitions for 'digitization' (15:07)
What does it mean for a whole organization to understand going fully 'digital'? Everybody has their own interpretation of what that means. Clear definitions and understanding are key for public organizations in particular, says Linda Hazzan.
A greater understanding of advanced technologies within mainstream operations (21:21)
Jeff Lancaster talks about developments at LinkedIn, "We're building some products - like conversation ads, in which we're starting to introduce AI and chatbot technology to offer a better experience."
For the full conversation, listen to the episode.
EP26 - Can brands fully embrace ESG with Nicole Aysan
09 Mar 2022
00:19:59
Our guest today is Nicole Aysan. She's a Brand Strategist at Cisco, with a background in environmental science, marketing, and design. A supporter and advocate for climate justice and mental health, in her free time, Nicole designs and organizes environmental activism events and experiences. She also provides thought leadership on the value of creativity in the marketing industry as a member of the Canadian Marketing Association's Creativity Counsel.
Episode Highlights:
Bringing the topic of sustainability to work (2:46): Nicole infuses sustainability in all areas of her life. "I am definitely an activist. I support a lot of climate justice initiatives across Canada, especially the ones that build community and resilience, as well as teach media literacy and how it impacts the climate movement. I also volunteer with the David Suzuki Foundation's Butterflway Project, which is this amazing national grassroots initiative to educate on the importance of pollinators like bees and monarch butterflies, and establish community-led native plant gardens all over the country."
Understanding ESG from a marketing perspective (4:20): Environmental, social, and governance topics have become a major focus for business over the last decade. "I think it's probably one of the hottest topics in marketing right now. At Cisco. I'm working primarily on ESG topics, including sustainability, social justice, and then from a governance perspective, diversity, equity, and inclusion and hybrid work are areas we producing a lot of content marketing around."
The role of brands and agencies in ESG communication (6:35): "A lot of what we do as a marketing industry doesn't really promote sustainability. It's actually the opposite. We're in the business of driving people to buy and consume more. We also need to avoid misleading messaging in marketing and communications. Greenwashing is rampant right now. That's the practice of making a brand appear more sustainable than they really are. A very big example is BP's (British Petroleum) award winning carbon footprint calculator from the early 2000s that puts the responsibility of climate change on the individual, not the 100 oil and gas companies responsible for 70% of the emissions."
If you are considering a career in marketing as it relates to ESG, what should you think about? (15:07) "Having an understanding of business functions outside of marketing is critical, especially if you want to move into a leadership position. The more skills you can build and add to your toolbox, the more likely it is you're going to find a position that really aligns because ESG is such a multidisciplinary area. And there's a broad variety of knowledge and skill sets you will need in order to apply to roles within the space. If you're interested in this topic, there's no shortage of work to be done!"
For more insight into an exciting and growing area of marketing, in which we can hope to make some real, measurable impact 🎧 listen to Nicole Aysan's conversation with CMA's own John Wiltshire.
EP25 - A Truly Great Resignation with Hilary Borndahl
02 Mar 2022
00:20:39
In today's episode, we will take you through the journey of a world-class entrepreneur, Hilary Borndahl. She is the founder and CEO of MIIX Analytics and has held leadership roles in market research for 20 years. Host John Wiltshire and Hilary talk about the importance of putting your own mental health first and how she recognized an opportunity to launch a new business at the height of the pandemic.
Episode Highlights:
Need to Reach out for Support (5:10): Hilary shares her experience of taking a leave from work to focus on her mental health after being diagnosed with anxiety and depression related to pandemic stressors. Hilary talks about how as leaders, we often check in with our team members and encourage them to take time off when needed and to connect with resources but we don't give ourselves the same grace.
Confidence to meet the challenge (7:39): Hilary says, " We're prepared as industries to go through periods of recession and periods of growth, but never to hit something like a global pandemic." Her work-personal-life balance during the pandemic took a heavy toll. During a break from her corporate role, she saw an opportunity and created her plan to create Miix.
Identifying the road to success in business (12:16): Hilary talks about the importance of every new business having a vision, solid marketing/communications plan and full organization chart even before you start recruiting. She points out that the first decision anyone who is thinking about striking out on their own needs to make is what their business structure will be. Decide first whether you will be an independent consultant or team based business and if it's the latter, what roles you will need to be successful once fully staffed.
Important advice to achieve business success (14:04): "It is important to set objectives and have strategies in place to achieve revenue targets. Businesses should continue to do what they do best and reach out to clients across different industries. Your business needs to have an agile approach to overcome hurdles."
For more insight from a successful entrepreneur 🎧 listen to Hilary Borndalh's conversation with CMA's own John Wiltshire.
EP24 - The great compression with Mitch Joel
16 Feb 2022
00:33:03
Today's guest is Mitch Joel, author of "Ctrl Alt Delete" and host of "Six pixels of separation". Mitch is past chair of the Canadian Marketing Association, a lifetime member, and self-confessed 'biggest fan of the CMA'.
John Wiltshire talks to Mitch about key trends that will unfurl in 2022. Here's some of what they touch on:
Omni-channel transcends retail (2:23)
"I think retail provides a very good analogy for all businesses. If you went to something like an Apple Store, suddenly it wasn't experiential, it was very transactional. They were taking my temperature, giving me a mask of their own, not letting me touch things; things were hermetically sealed in saran wrap. And what these retailers realized is they needed to create better experiences online. Omni-channel really means seamless - it's the ability to move from digital to physical, seamlessly, where it feels very connected. And I believe through this pandemic, which I call an era of forced innovation, that every size retailer really figured out how to be truly omni-channel by default. And it transcended retail to hit every industry, whether banking, telco, or agency services."
Trend toward 'brand services'. (10:42)
Why people buy experiences, not things and services are the new experience. During the pandemic, many people got a pet and Walmart experienced a massive uptick in people buying pet food, toys, and accessories. They used this information to expand their services.
Relationship between 'skepticism' and 'influencers' (14:28)
This idea that an influencer is the new publisher and the new gateway to media can be a dangerous place to go. We need to look no further than the Joe Rogan story for a current example.
Balance of decentralization and regulation in the next version of the internet (20:03)
The parallels between being one of the earliest agencies who were all about social media and democratization of content when it was a safe thing for brands to buy another TV spot - and where we are now with web3 and the NFT world. Mitch's take is we're dealing with complex technology that's going to take some time to mature, to a level of sophistication and credibility that's needed for mainstream adoption in marketing and beyond, and that won't happen in 2022.
Yes - mobile is still first! (26:04)
With everyone online via tablets and phones post pandemic, marketers really need to develop a mobile first mentality. Mitch encourages brands to look in the mirror and ask, "Are we mobile first? Because the customer is, and right now, the vast majority of us are not."
For more on decoding NFTs, how to look back at your first 2 months post-pandemic as a roadmap for business, and what the great compression really is 🎧 take a listen to Mitch Joel's conversation with CMA's own John Wiltshire.
EP23 - The need to maintain consumer trust in ad content with Jani Yates
09 Feb 2022
00:22:11
In this episode John Wiltshire hosts Jani Yates, President and Chief Executive Officer of Ad Standards, to discuss ad content regulations, impact, and consumer trust.In order to provide context around pandemic references, please note this conversation took place in October of 2020.
Here are some interview highlights:
Need for Ad Standards (1:52): The ad standards industry has been in place for 63 years, with a primary focus of building consumer trust. It also highlights the need for self-regulation. Self-regulation bodies are non-profit and non government funded organizations that handle different areas of consumer complaints on behalf of the industry.
Advertisement-Related Consumer Complaint System (3:23): There is an online complaint system and a consumer panel that reviews customer complaints. The concern is taken to the advertiser and provides them with opportunities to respond. It's essential for the consumer panel to ensure advertisers amend the ads in question to resolve customer concerns.
Advertisement Violation Code Categories (5:01): There are 14 different clauses that highlight the importance of the code. These are based on the International Chamber of Commerce's advertising code. The top 3 include clarity and price issues, safety, and inappropriate depictions and misrepresentations.
Importance of Taglines (7:12): The initial tagline for Ad Standards 4 years ago was 'truth in advertising matters'. After careful review of language and communication, the tagline was changed to 'truthful, fair and accurate'. These are the best representation of what Ad Standards do.
Government Involvement (8:16): All countries who are part of the International Chamber of Commerce are self-regulating organizations. There is also a European group for self-regulatory organizations. One important thing we follow in Canada is pre-clearance: a concept that is not in practice in many other countries.
For more about advertising laws, trends, and consumer issues 🎧 please listen to Jani Yates' conversation with CMA's own John Wiltshire.
EP22 - Modernizing Canada's privacy law and the art of government relations with Sara Clodman
02 Feb 2022
00:18:11
In this episode, John Wiltshire joins Vice President of Public Affairs and Thought Leadership for the CMA, Sara Clodman to discuss the Association's efforts to advocate for the modernization of Canada's privacy law and explore the art of government relations and its impact on the topics of most relevance to the marketing community.
Conversation highlights:
Privacy law reform (1:20): A new privacy law will ensure that consumers have modernized protections and Canadian businesses can spur innovation and compete successfully within Canada and on a global scale.
Understanding the legislative timetable (4:40): Passing legislation takes time and is complex. It's important to understand the points where you can have an impact on the direction that government takes. By the time a bill gets introduced in Parliament, you are already far down the road.
The role of interest groups (9:34): It's important for government to hear the views of organizations like the CMA and to avoid unintended consequences. The earlier we get involved the better. We have worked on privacy law reform for several years.
Working with government (14:06): There are basic principles to follow in government relations. If you are asking for something that is relevant to the government's agenda, then it will be more of a priority. For example, updated privacy law is important to support the government's priority to stimulate the economy. Also, it is vital to provide accurate information and evidence to government, to help them avoid any untended consequences.
CMA's GR activities (15.49): Bringing public attention to an issue helps get the attention of MPs because there are so many issues for them to consider spending time on. Marketers should watch the CMA social feeds and help raise awareness of important public policy issues.
To learn more about the Association's government relations activities and Canadian marketing rules tune in to CMA Connect. Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP21 - How to go from chaos to composure (and back again), with Ron Tite
26 Jan 2022
00:29:21
Ushering a brand and a team from chaos to composure (C2C) and back to chaos again while the world's economy is unstable doesn't require a new entrant to the marketing tech stack. It needs leadership. C2C leadership. In this episode, John Wiltshire joins purpose-driven leadership expert and best-selling author Ron Tite, Founder and Chief Creative Officer of Church+State, to discuss how to seize opportunities in chaos and gain the momentum to come out stronger.
Here's a snapshot of what they cover:
The definition of leadership (5:25): taking specific actions to improve the lives of the people around you (starting with yourself) and being open to changing your opinion as your data changes.
A parable for leadership: How races are won in the corners (7:54): Just like racing drivers, a leader will accelerate in the middle of the curve. The earlier you accelerate (whether it's through investment, increased attention and focus or the willingness to change your business to help your customers) the bigger and greater your momentum will be.
Purpose equals sacrifice – and what this has to do with Lady Gaga (10:48): Leadership is bound by purpose defined by action and adopted by others through communication. Ron believes purpose allows us to broaden and diversify a portfolio of products (much like Lady Gaga did when she couldn't perform live) and still be held by a consistent belief.
The importance of communication (from stand-up to leadership) 17:15: Whether you're a leader or a stand-up comedian, you have to communicate well, be authentic and transparent. But you can't ignore the reality of the room, you need to address it. Not only do you need to pivot on the spot, you need to go all in – and that's where the gold comes from.
Why you shouldn't cover up your roots (27:18): With virtual meetings, you share parts of your life (whether intentionally or unintentionally) like your family, pets, artwork – your roots. This gives each party a better sense of each other, which will help build trust and increase collaboration.
To learn more about C2C leadership and how to put your business on the right track for success🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP20 - How data can make public spaces safer as we approach recovery, with Jan Kestle
19 Jan 2022
00:26:43
Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in May of 2020
On today's episode of CMA Connect, John Wilshire joins Jan Kestle, President & CEO of Environics Analytics for a discussion about using data to make public spaces safer. She talks about how data and analytics can help organizations understand their customers and get better ROI, how analytics informs marketing strategy, and what marketers can do to prepare for a data-driven future.
Key highlights:
Data and analytics help organizations connect with their customers through the right messaging, using the preferred medium, at the right time. Data mining and analytics can show how effective this messaging is, which allows marketers to improve their interaction with consumers at many stages of hte relationship. (2:01)
Analytics informs strategy – how Environics Analytics helps businesses and government organizations align their analytics and business strategy to ensure data-driven marketing spend creates ROI. (4:51)
Using Mobile movement data to ensure public spaces are safe – How location data can be used to demonstrate how many Canadians are leaving their homes, and whether this is privacy compliant. This helps government, marketers, and other organizations know what trade-offs are being made between a consumer's personal desires, the economy and safety, so that they can determine policy (and what this means for store hours, product offerings and ultimately, marketing spend.) (6:40)
Marketing to your potential, and untapped potential, instead of just marketing to your customer base. (18:25)
What marketers can do right now to prepare for the future and help Canada recover. (25:11)
To learn more about data-driven marketing, privacy, and how data can make public spaces safer as we move towards recovery, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP23 - Mastering Customer Experience with Alessandra Bisaillon, Lesley Haibach, and Sue Sharp
16 Jul 2024
00:30:52
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes three members of the CMA's CX Council: Alessandra Bisaillon, Director of Marketing and Media Relations at Farm Boy Company Inc., Lesley Haibach EVP, Customer Experience at Ipsos Limited Partnership, and Sue Sharp, Partner and National Lead, Customer Experience Transformation & CMO Advisory at PwC Management Services LLP. Their discussion sheds light on how crucial and influential customer experience has become, why service design plays a critical part and the importance of understanding the customer journey.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:03 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.
00:00:22:05 - 00:00:44:08 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into a topic that's becoming increasingly critical for marketers. Customer experience or it's a continues to play a larger role in marketers scope of responsibilities. It is absolutely essential to understand the tools and frameworks that can help us excel in this area. And one such framework is service design, which we'll be talking a bit about today.
00:00:44:09 - 00:01:14:13 Alison So service design is a powerful approach that helps organizations systematically understand, align, and optimize their resources and processes to enhance both the employee as well as the customer experience. By leveraging service design principles, marketers can create more cohesive, meaningful, and memorable experiences that really drive brand loyalty and ultimately grow businesses. So, to help us navigate this topic, I have three members of our Canadian Marketing Association joining me today.
00:01:14:15 - 00:01:42:18 Alison Lesley Haibach is the EVP, Customer Experience Leader at Ipsos. Alessandra Bisaillon is the head of marketing and media relations at Farmboy Company, Inc., and Susan Sharp is a partner and national lead Customer Experience Transformation and the CMO advisory at PWC. They each bring a unique perspective and a wealth of expertise in both CX and service design. So today is absolutely going to be an illuminating and engaging conversation.
00:01:42:20 - 00:02:03:21 Alison Throughout the discussion, Lesley, Alessandra, and Susan are going to explore why marketing and CX are so tightly intertwined. We'll also talk about what sets organizations that excel at service design apart, and what marketers can do to start embedding service design as a capability within their teams and enterprises. So I'm thrilled to have three talented guests joining us today.
00:02:03:22 - 00:02:07:01 Alison So a big welcome to Lesley, Sue and Alessandra
00:02:07:03 - 00:02:08:11 Sue Thanks, Alison.
00:02:08:13 - 00:02:08:23 Lesley Thank you.
00:02:08:23 - 00:02:10:11 Alessandra Thank you.
00:02:10:13 - 00:02:21:12 Alison Now I want to kick things off by asking why our marketing and customer experience so tightly coupled. And how does service design play a role. Lesley why don't you kick us off?
00:02:21:14 - 00:02:57:08 Lesley Sure. That would be great. Thank you. Alison. And this is a very important question. In fact, I'm sure all three of us would strongly agree that CX is one of the most important considerations for an organization and that its importance is often underestimated. It's critical for organizations to understand why marketing and customer experience need to be so intertwined. What we're seeing is more and more consumers interactions with the brand are really driven by their own experiences, and not necessarily marketing initiatives or the advertising of that brand.
00:02:57:10 - 00:03:23:20 Lesley In fact, we know from our own Ipsos research that two thirds of consumers will select a brand based on the experiences they've had and nothing else. And that's almost twice the percentage of any other reason for interacting. Whether that's brand image, word of mouth, social media, and why that is is because customers create their own expectations for brand, and these expectations are based on their own experiences, the marketing they see,
00:03:23:22 - 00:03:49:04 Lesley the advertising from, things they've heard from their friends and family. However, when these customers actually interact with that brand, the experience delivered is either going to meet their expectations, it's going to exceed them, or it's going to fail to meet them. And if a customer's expectations are continually being unmet, their risk of turning to a different brand.
00:03:49:06 - 00:04:22:10 Lesley So often organizations, you know, we find do look at brand health and their marketing initiatives and customer experience metrics. But they often do this in isolation of one another. And we find that can be very misleading and really underscores the reason why organizations need to look at them together. And I give you an example of this. We did a study a few years ago in the grocery industry here in Canada, and we designed our study to look at both brand health metrics and key metrics.
00:04:22:12 - 00:04:51:17 Lesley When we initially started looking at this, if we looked at, let's say, two brands in particular, if we just looked at their brand metrics, we have a clear leader based on the amount market share, the attitudinal, equity, brand love all of these things that are important from a marketing perspective. But when we layered in the customer experience metrics, we quickly found that that leading brand was actually on a declining trajectory, and it was the number two brand that was actually in growth mode.
00:04:51:19 - 00:05:13:21 Lesley What was happening was brand number one wasn't delivering the experiences to the level of expectation of their customers. So despite their current market lead, the brand was heading towards a sharp decline. Whereas for the second brand, their experiences were meeting or exceeding expectations and we could see how they were very rapidly picking up market share and were growing.
00:05:13:23 - 00:05:42:23 Lesley So for the first brand, it was important for them to understand how to deliver experiences that would at least meet expectations of their customers. And this is really where service design comes into play. When an organization is not meeting their customers expectations. They need to take the time to evaluate and redesign those experiences so that they can continue to drive customer loyalty and maintain and grow their share of that.
00:05:43:01 - 00:05:59:18 Alison Let's say thank you very much for sharing that in the grocery example. Now, you and I are both have been doing this for a few decades now. So certainly early in my career, marketing and CX wasn't something we talked about a lot in marketing. And if it existed in the companies we were in, it certainly wasn't part of marketing.
00:05:59:18 - 00:06:08:12 Alison So I'd love to hear you share. Like, what do you think has brought those together and made CX a bigger priority for marketers today?
00:06:08:14 - 00:06:31:01 Lesley I think it really comes back to this example that we shared in the fact that if companies are finding this disconnect in their results based on their marketing, and I think as they start to connect the dots and go, well, wait a second, why is my marketing no longer being what's driving people in? And the fact that we now know it's their own experiences has forced a lot of work and ization to really say, you know what?
00:06:31:01 - 00:06:38:06 Lesley There's something here that's disconnecting, and we need to find a way to make sure we are meeting those expectations of our customers.
00:06:38:07 - 00:06:41:23 Alison In many ways, it's an early indicator, early warning system email.
00:06:41:23 - 00:07:09:07 Sue So add to that that you know traditionally is marketers. And then we'll talk more about this a little bit later. But traditionally as marketers we have always been how do we how do we drive demand. Right. And thinking about growth through demand and conversion. But lately and we all know with the economy the way it is, we've had to really kind of pivot into retention.
00:07:09:09 - 00:07:33:03 Sue Well, what does retention look like? Retention. There's a resounding element of customer experience through all of your retention capability. Right. So so it is really tightly coupled. And having it sit outside kind of as a standard or somewhere else in an organization, I think puts an organization more at risk. It really does become part of what marketers after.
00:07:33:05 - 00:07:44:15 Alison That's a great add on, Sue, thank you very much. Now I'd like to hear what are organizations that are really excelling at service design. What are they doing differently? Lesley, do you want to kick this off?
00:07:44:17 - 00:08:05:06 Lesley We found that when an organization is optimizing their experiences through service design, we found that they do kind of one of all of these five tips. And they may not realize they're doing these five things exactly the way that they are, but it really is the foundational pieces to making sure that everything comes together. So part of it is research, right?
00:08:05:07 - 00:08:25:14 Lesley Research has to do is to start with the research. But that research also has to evolve. So for example, in my grocery store example you needed a starting point. We needed to understand the circumstance of brand one and brand two. But as we try to redesign those experiences for brand one, you need to be able to have research to help you do that.
00:08:25:14 - 00:08:55:10 Lesley What's working, what's not. And then once you decide to implement whatever's the best solution, you need to continuously monitor that. That's the first one. Second one is alignment of your leadership. This needs to happen across all functions in an organization because we know that while experiences are truly delivered at the front line, if you don't have leadership alignment from the top down, anything new you try is not necessarily going to be successfully implemented and maintained.
00:08:55:12 - 00:09:19:17 Lesley And then there's the operationalization of all these experiences, because it's not enough for the leaders themselves to be aligned on the functions. Customer experience has to focus across all levels of the organization. So whether an organization does regular meetings, other initiatives, huddles, whatever it is, each part of the business has to be accountable for it to some degree and measured on that.
00:09:19:19 - 00:09:47:08 Lesley And we see this often a lot of resistance with organizations that say, but my back office doesn't deal with clients, not directly, perhaps, but they do have internal clients. And all of those things have an impact on your ultimate customer. So making sure the back office is considered as well is critical. And then measurement of ROI, right? If you're delivering the right experiences to your customers, you need to understand the ROI of doing that.
00:09:47:10 - 00:10:10:01 Lesley We like to call it an Ipsos proxy, a return on customer experience investment. But every function in the organization needs to have their own KPIs. And you need to be able to analyze these against CX. So looking at things like what's your return on investment when it comes to brand or NPS or basket size or traffic counts? All of these things can be impact by service delivery.
00:10:10:03 - 00:10:41:03 Lesley And the last one is about sustaining all of this across all functions, and knowing when it's time to step back and reevaluate or treat tweak experiences that you're delivering. And it doesn't matter the size of the organization, these principles can apply in all cases because most organizations have these functions across the business, and it's about creating a CX design and strategy that will go across the entire organization, whether there's 100 employees or 100,000.
00:10:41:05 - 00:10:43:19 Lesley And I think, Alessandra you had an example of this, right?
00:10:43:21 - 00:11:13:15 Alessandra Absolutely. Yeah. And in terms of one organization that we discussed that really delivers a consistent and positive experience, its customers is Starbucks. And they have truly mastered all five components of the service design framework, particularly when it comes to operationalizing the experience and also from a sustainability perspective. They also intentionally make the experience of their customers a personal one, whether it's with every order or every visit.
00:11:13:16 - 00:11:35:00 Alessandra And when you do visit a Starbucks, you know the staff is so knowledgeable about every coffee blend menu item. They truly are amazing in terms of executing the personalization of offers, which essentially they've also successfully done through their systems. And Lesley mentioned a little bit about, you know, the backstage, the back office. They do a really great job of that as well.
00:11:35:06 - 00:11:51:05 Alessandra And then of course, there's the data and research component. And, you know, leveraging insights and data to really bring that on to life. So we felt that this was a really good example of one organization that has truly mastered all five components of service design.
00:11:51:07 - 00:11:55:15 Alison Lesley, thank you very much for distilling it down to those five core principles and analysis.
00:11:55:15 - 00:12:15:05 Alison And to bring it to life with an example is great. And it's also a really good segue into the next piece that I want to dig in, which is around data, research and sustainability. So let's dive deeper into research measure and sustain. And why are these are critical ongoing aspects of service design and CX. Sue I'd love you to take the lead on this.
00:12:15:07 - 00:12:42:14 Sue Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. I think I'm going to start with a statement that when you think about research, measure and sustain, it's obviously not once and done, it's ongoing. If I start with research, you really need to think about gaining that deep understanding of the customer, your customer across channels, the customer's perception of your brand, their experience with it is critical.
00:12:42:14 - 00:13:12:21 Sue As Lesley pointed out earlier. The key here for us as marketers is to look at the end to end state of the client experience and understanding the highs and the lows of the interactions your client has, whether it's the online channel, the the mobile channel, or the in-person or, you know, your call center. You have to think about how that that customer is interacting with your front line or through the tools that you've enabled for self-service.
00:13:12:23 - 00:13:36:21 Sue And it's this core. It's really core to understanding and prioritizing what problems you need to solve to deliver on your vision. And I like to talk in problems we're solving because to me that's a need. It's a need based way to think about what you need to do to to enable a better customer experience. Just because it's cooling fancy doesn't mean you need to go and do it.
00:13:36:23 - 00:14:03:19 Sue So this understanding and the prioritization of what problems we're solving are will become your benchmark. And through sustain ultimately your guide. Now too often we see clients that they think they know their client experience. They don't want to do the research. They don't want to invest in that. They think that they can act as the client and give them give feedback.
00:14:03:21 - 00:14:30:03 Sue This is a trap that a lot of organizations fall into, and it really holds back the organization from from succeeding in CX and specifically in service design. So your research will help fuel your initiatives and true transforming. And it is the critical element in creating the alignment for your vision across your organization and for helping to sustain and evolve the vision.
00:14:30:05 - 00:15:00:18 Sue So those data points really, really hit home for executives across the board. In service design, we often talk about a service blueprint, the blueprint gives an organization a holistic view of what needs to happen to make your vision work. So we've talked a lot about kind of thinking across the business. And you think about the customer interaction, the middle office layer and interaction and process, the back office process and what technology we need to have in place to support it.
00:15:00:20 - 00:15:30:00 Sue It's a lot, but I think as marketers, we're good leaders, we're good collaborators, and we have a role to play in in this effort to really help drive change and growth through customer experience. So while we might be, as I said earlier, focus on the top of the funnel and demand generation or acquisition, but more and more of us have to start thinking about our efforts, about retention.
00:15:30:02 - 00:16:07:05 Sue So, as Lesley pointed out, it truly impacts customer retention and your brand. And thinking about that churn that happens when we get disappointed by a brand. I think there a research from Gartner saying 32% of people will leave a brand after two bad experiences. So that's truly impactful to if you're thinking about your retention. So we as marketers need to lead in advocating for customers throughout our organizations, representing their voice with our ongoing research and collaborating with our business partners to deliver growth.
00:16:07:07 - 00:16:36:16 Sue So that's kind of the core on the research. We talk about measurement. And and I think about measurement as a way to help prioritize initiatives and demonstrate the impact, of CX. So Lesley, you talked about Roxy. We call it return on experience at PWC, it's when we start to organizations start to achieve their CX vision. You can quickly realize there is a lot to be done.
00:16:36:18 - 00:17:02:01 Sue And just, you know, mentioning the research helps us understand and prioritize the problems we solve at solving. We have to break it down into what service design we call micro journeys. These micro journeys might be prioritized based on potential impact to customers, the impact to your business, and your ability to execute. So really kind of think through where should we be making these investments for change?
00:17:02:03 - 00:17:30:00 Sue The micro journey for each CX initiative. If you should be measuring the current state and then impact of the new or revised design. So you might be measuring or looking at your digital data. It might be saving time on a manual process versus an automated process. It might mean a reduction in errors. So this is really where you bring all of these elements together.
00:17:30:02 - 00:17:55:07 Sue Front of the house, middle of house, back of the house to see how that change can actually impact your business over time. You use these measurements to test and learn and you refine your micro journey. And it's so important because understanding all these components will help demonstrate the impact of cost to the organization and leadership, and start to create some momentum.
00:17:55:09 - 00:18:20:20 Sue This is where sustain really comes in. Think about how you consistently research through voice of customer programs, taking learnings to not only improve on your CX, but also your operations, your products, and your services. This is key information that needs to be shared throughout the organization to enable change. And I think this is where marketers can really shine.
00:18:20:22 - 00:18:46:12 Alison Sue, thank you so much. You shared so much great advice. You also highlighted just because it's cool and shiny doesn't mean you need to do it. And then you also calling out the mission critical role that research can play in helping both understand and then prioritize. What are the problems we're solving? We're always challenge for where to make the investment from a marketing perspective, and that's a really important call out.
00:18:46:14 - 00:19:12:02 Alison And then you also acknowledging that as marketers, we're definitely good leaders or good collaborators. I would add to that we're great storytellers, so we're able to help the organizations understand why CX is such a mission critical. Part of what we're doing. So now, I would love to turn it over to you, Alessandra, to share how service design can help fuel alignment within organizations.
00:19:12:04 - 00:19:39:09 Alessandra That's a really great question, and thank you. Based on the five touchpoints that we discussed, I do believe that without alignment within your organization, the other pieces of the framework will fall apart. This is so critical. And we know that service design can help organizations achieve a best in class customer experience and their business objectives. However, CX is not the responsibility of just one.
00:19:39:09 - 00:20:17:00 Alessandra So function. And Lesley alluded to this at the beginning of our discussion. All departments across the organization really need to prioritize CX and be measured against it. as we discussed. And this really does require senior leadership alignment of all functions. So whether it's marketing, sales, finance, procurement, category management, operations, customer service or IT, the list goes on, all functions of the business really need to have CX as a key business priority, and they need to keep it aligned with constant focus.
00:20:17:02 - 00:20:37:23 Alessandra So I'll give an example. from a grocery industry perspective, at Farm Boy, we actually have a customer experience committee that consists of various leads from different functions. And really this is to ensure that CX is always top of mind. And at the end of the day, it truly is the heart of everything we do at Farm Boy.
00:20:38:01 - 00:21:00:10 Alessandra And a priority for all of our departments. So what we have our monthly CX meetings that actually take place whereby we discuss processes, procedures, all of that is reviewed, including any customer comments or feedback that comes in from our customer service department. So that as a as a committee, we can further understand, you know, what are the deficiencies?
00:21:00:10 - 00:21:29:02 Alessandra Are there gaps that need to be addressed? And oftentimes, even if they're not these monthly focused discussions, when we're reviewing procedures, they actually expose weak links and misalignment if there is. And that really allows the committee to also devise collaborative and cross-functional solutions. On the other hand, you know, if you take a larger enterprise like a bank, it's really important to think across the lines of business.
00:21:29:02 - 00:21:47:17 Alessandra So beyond just functions or departments in order to keep CX top of mind. So working horizontally across the organization. And so how would a large organization do that successfully while setting up a governance structure in a larger organization? That's obviously going to involve a lot.
00:21:47:17 - 00:21:48:04 Alessandra More team members
00:21:48:18 - 00:22:14:01 Alessandra and different lines of business. And that magnitude is going to vary by organization, but really setting up a disciplined cadence of whether it's CX meetings, ensuring that CX is layered into the businesses scorecard is so critical. We mentioned this earlier from a measurement perspective. You know, it's vital in order for the service design framework to be successful, that those KPIs are embedded.
00:22:14:03 - 00:22:25:00 Alessandra So for larger organizations, you may actually need both a working committee and a steer co to be set up for success and work horizontally across the organization.
00:22:25:02 - 00:22:38:07 Alison Thanks, Alessandra. Your found by example really is an illuminating one, and it's also a great way on a monthly basis to ensure that the customer voice is front and center, not just for marketing, but across the organization.
00:22:38:07 - 00:22:52:14 Alison So I really love that example. Now, Lesley, I'd love to turn it back to you to share what organizations should be considering when they're starting to embed service design as a capability, especially in larger enterprises.
00:22:52:16 - 00:23:24:03 Lesley Great. Thank you. Allison. It's a great question. But when you think about a larger organization, in particular an organization that has hundreds or thousands of locations, how can you actually guarantee a consistent experience at every touchpoint? So using service design, you can create customer centric journey maps. You can make sure that you improve all of your user experiences online and in mobile apps, and you need to be able to use it to think about an omnichannel experience versus what often is a multi-channel experience, right?
00:23:24:04 - 00:23:50:05 Lesley So you need that seamlessness across every touchpoint that a customer can interact with you. So these things can all help you to ensure you've got that consistency across all of your interactions. I want to kind of bring this to life with an example. We once had a client who, in their call center, used our service design approach to improve the experiences of their live agent interactions on their telephone banking center.
00:23:50:07 - 00:23:58:19 Lesley We started by identifying all of the pain points, and once we done that, as well as the ideal experience that their clients were looking for, we were able.
00:23:58:19 - 00:23:59:08 Sue To.
00:23:59:10 - 00:24:21:16 Lesley Help them create and develop the new way that the experiences should look. But there was more to it than that, because it's one thing to just say, we're going to redesign our experience, but what impact does that have on all other parts of the organization? So we had to include training to bring in, you know, new training documents of how the process was going to be designed and executed.
00:24:21:18 - 00:24:40:14 Lesley We had to bring in hiring teams to be able to say, how do you ensure that you're bringing new people into the company who can actually fulfill and deliver on those new experiences? And it meant that you also had to be able to redo all of your process maps and make sure that everyone was aligned in that consistent experience.
00:24:40:16 - 00:25:09:01 Lesley So all of these things just emphasize the point that, you know, making the service design encompass all of your functions within an organization is really critical to its success. And of course, though with larger organizations, it also means there are more people to impact greater complexity across all functions. So you have to have that right governance structure, and it has to be inclusive of all stakeholders across all business functions.
00:25:09:01 - 00:25:42:07 Lesley And Alessandra mentioned here. You know, some companies will have a governance structure that includes a steer co and a working committee. Those are some of the things you need to make sure you incorporate, to make sure that your experiences are seamless and that your decision making processes are also aligned and also seamless. So, you know, making sure that everyone in your organization has their eye on CX and the design of the experiences and services will lead to improved customer loyalty and just overall better business success.
00:25:42:09 - 00:26:05:23 Alison Sue. Lesley and Alessandra, I really want to thank you. This has been a very robust and very action oriented conversation around CX, so marketers, regardless of where they are in their journey in embedding CX into their marketing work. We'll actually have some really great takeaways. Before I let you go on with your workdays. You each have really terrific and varied experience and certainly enviable careers.
00:26:06:01 - 00:26:14:02 Alison So I'd love to close off our discussion by having each of you share one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners. And, Alessandra, I'd love you to kick us off.
00:26:14:04 - 00:26:30:11 Alessandra Sure. One piece of advice I'd like to give is, is for marketers to always remain curious and not be afraid to really test and learn new tactics with your teams or with your agency partners in order to ensure that you're really providing that exceptional experience for your customers.
00:26:30:11 - 00:26:59:14 Alessandra Each and every time, it's that consistency that is key that we talked about, especially because the landscape of marketing and retail overall is changing so rapidly. We need to continue to evolve. We have to stay relevant and test and learn. And you know, you may not always get it right. And that's okay. But the learnings and the rewards that actually come out of innovative pilots through testing and learning can oftentimes result in significant returns for organizations.
00:26:59:16 - 00:27:05:20 Alessandra And at the same time, you're successfully fostering innovation and creativity for your marketing team.
00:27:05:22 - 00:27:07:20 Alison Thanks. I'm going to turn it over to Lesley.
00:27:07:22 - 00:27:35:14 Lesley So I think we see our world rapidly changing with new technology and AI, but even though that despite that change, some things are just going to remain the same. We can't, as part of that, forget human intelligence. Customers want us to provide experiences that they can trust. They want to feel they're valued, and they want to feel that both the organization and its employees empathize with their unique circumstances.
00:27:35:15 - 00:27:50:22 Lesley And so how we can show that we value those customers, how we build trust and how we show our empathetic human side might change with technology. The need for these things is going to remain.
00:27:51:00 - 00:28:02:12 Alison You're absolutely right there. The fundamentals of what we do aren't changing, but the how we do them certainly is evolving. And that's terrific advice. So Sue, I'm going to hand it over to you to close our discussion today.
00:28:02:14 - 00:28:29:08 Sue Absolutely. Thanks. So I mean, a large part of this has been focus on service design. And when you think about that, it's about creating exceptional customer experiences by improving both tangible and intangible services. And it could be interactions processes, communications. And when you think kind of underneath that, it aligns with what we would call user centered design or user centric thinking.
00:28:29:10 - 00:29:00:07 Sue and aims to enhance both your customer satisfaction and your business outcomes. So my I have three points. So point number one to that end is really involve user throughout the process. If you're jumping into service design. And frankly kind of what Alessandra was saying is be curious about your customers throughout any process. Meet real world needs and expectations of your customers and your frontline staff.
00:29:00:10 - 00:29:27:12 Sue Engage with them. Learn from them, and really ask a lot of questions. But don't just ask them once. Ask them throughout your design process. Second point is really collaborate. Collaborate. Collaborate. We mentioned it earlier. Service design can't be done in one functional area alone. It takes a village lead from the customer's viewpoint and share your insights. I think marketing's really positioned well to do that.
00:29:27:14 - 00:30:01:22 Sue And then lastly finally is start small but think big. Start with a pilot project or specific touchpoints and gradually with successful Roxy or rocks in hand, expand to larger service improvements. And this will help you to minimize risk as you start out your journey and also to to start building momentum. And I think, you know, to your point early around the Starbucks journey into personalization, they started small and they grew and scaled.
00:30:02:00 - 00:30:06:14 Sue And that's I think ultimately where we want to go. But you got to start small.
00:30:06:16 - 00:30:22:14 Alison That is absolutely terrific advice from the three of you to end on. And our listeners, if they take that and start actioning it in the days and months ahead, they will absolutely get even stronger at their craft. So many thanks to the three of you for a really robust and terrific discussion.
00:30:22:16 - 00:30:24:07 Sue Thank you for having us. Yes.
00:30:24:07 - 00:30:24:16 Lesley Thank you.
00:30:24:17 - 00:30:31:07 Alessandra Thank you for having us.
00:30:31:09 - 00:30:43:22 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.
EP19 - How our hiring landscape has changed with Bruce Powell
12 Jan 2022
00:25:51
On the mic with John in this episode is Bruce Powell, Co-founder and Managing Partner at IQ PARTNERS, an Executive Search & Recruitment firm.
"We saw a VP of Marketing hired last week to a European company. He's doing all of his work and his team management remotely from Toronto, Canada. That's a huge opportunity for Canadian marketers. The flip side is that you're now competing with everybody in the world." - Bruce Powell
Here's some of what they cover:
1. At any time, a third of people are actively considering whether they're in the right role (4:20)
The numbers have jumped to 50% in the pandemic, which feels like a large number, but it may not be on a relative basis, says Bruce. "Most of us are working remotely, and despite being busier, you'd still have a lot more time to reflect on where you're at, and whether you've advanced as far as you want to in your career. It increases people's willingness to consider whether they're ready for a change."
2. The current pulse on 'work from home' (6:17)
While marketers may have had some flexibility in the past, nobody could have imagined entire teams working from home full-time and being productive. The pandemic has required changes in how people operate. "It's been a wholesale surprise that this actually works." Companies have now become increasingly flexible.
3. Reflecting on hiring in the marketing industry in comparison to others (7:41)
"Our clients have been consistently hiring across the board, in accounting, sales, and technology, and our business has been consistent. Unfortunately, our marketing recruitment activity is down probably 40%. And that is, I think, a reflection of marketing still (being viewed as) a cost center."
4. Into the mind of the marketing professional (10:14)
Fear of the unknown is prevalent. More people are reflecting on their careers and think that they would like to make a change. And yet when it comes down to it, there is fear in making that change.
5. Key things employers should bear in mind as they look to fill critical roles (14:04)
"I think it's important to remember that 'emotion buys and logic justifies'. No matter how logical the offer may be, or how much it makes sense for this person as the next step in their career to take this offer, you need to invest a little bit more these days in getting them comfortable and emotionally engaged with the company. The second thing is (to think of it) like buying a house in a competitive market. An offer needs to be presented with as few conditions as possible. If you put out an offer, and it's conditional on references, it's going to make the person more anxious. Address those references up front, and then come up with an offer. It will vastly increase your likelihood of success."
To hear more 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP18 - Addressing the lack of Indigenous people in the marketing workplace
05 Jan 2022
00:27:06
"Do you have people around you that are different from you? Maybe you just go and just listen (to them) for a while. Go and read books. Maybe you just go and discover experiences that are different from yours. It's super uncomfortable and super awkward. But I think those awkward, uncomfortable conversations are totally worth it."- Darian Kovacs
Joining John this week is Darian Kovacs from the best coast, i.e. the West Coast of Canada! Darian is an accomplished Indigenous business leader, founding partner of Jelly Marketing, and an accomplished podcast host of 'Marketing News Canada'.
Here's some of what they discuss:
1. Being thoughtful with a combination of planning, and being able to adapt to the world around you - Darian's own story (1:47)
Darian went to university to study Child and Youth Care and Art education, thinking he was going into art and play therapy. Through his work in the world of youth, he discovered that much of the work is marketing. Anyone who is in fundraising knows that goes back to the fascinating world of marketing, conversion, and PR. Eventually I realized I wanted to work in an organization that did work in the charity sector but also did work in the corporate sector. So I started Jelly."
2. The connection between thrifty budgets, collaborations, and good marketing (6:44)
"I found the charity sector, with its thrifty budgets, was able to really lean on corporate ideas, because it was able to say, 'Hey, here's what you can do with a really small budget. And here's how you can be a little more feisty, a little more grassroots!' And corporations that have larger budgets could experiment and try things with them."
3. Bringing change to a white-centric industry (13:13)
When "Marketing News Canada" - the podcast and publication - began, Darian's team created a Marketing Hall of Fame Award. In their research into different jury members in awards across North America who could be potential jury members for them, they realized that "almost 90% of jury members were white males. The other 10% were white females. For me, it was a real shock because I belong to this industry. And I love it. I just didn't realize how white-centric it was. It was a wake up call for me.
4. Starting to address the lack of Indigineous peoples in the marketing workplace (16:15)
Why don't we have more Indigenous peoples in marketing? Why don't we have as many BIPOC marketers? The issue is with inclusion. Darian talks of how he watched when Sephora created an ad with Indigenous peoples. "It was written by Indigenous people, shot by Indigenous people. But then the sad response was that they forgot one sect of Indigenous people, which is Afro-Indigenous people, and they received negative feedback. But I still think that's a good example. Sephora was trying, and the good thing is that they're one of the only organizations in Canada that included Indigenous people in their advertising, pre-reading, and pre-awareness this year. The lesson here? If you're going to have a BIPOC Committee make sure you include people from every one of those acronyms."
5. How Darian measures the success of Jelly's purpose in bringing more Indigenous peoples to the workplace
"Number one, are they hired, and by what salary radar are they hired? Number two, do we have an amazing group of hundreds of stakeholders that actually review, provide constructive criticism, to our syllabi, our modules? It has to be really solid stuff that brands want; that agencies want. And third, a long term measurement play, are we seeing CMOs that are from this program? Are we seeing directors and managers from this program? Are they getting to that place?"
To hear more 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP17 - The artistry of analytics with Charlie Grinnell and Jeff Greenspoon
22 Dec 2021
00:21:01
In part two of this episode arc on data-driven marketing, guest host Jeff Greenspoon - President of Global Solutions, CEO of Canada for Dentsu International and a member of the Board of Directors here at the Canadian Marketing Association is joined by Charlie Grinnell - CEO, Right Metric.
If you haven't heard the first part, listen to episode 16 first.
Here's some of what they discuss in this episode.
1. The art side of the marketing equation comes out of the shadows (0:46)
"We've come to a tech agnostic status for a lot of brands, where if you look at the platforms, whether they be Adobe, Salesforce or Amazon, every brand has won, and they're using it to the best of their abilities from a technology perspective, the differentiator and where likely we've stopped investing as much as we should be is in creativity. Ideas are what drive resonance and salience. Oftentimes, we think about data fueling channel decisions and media decisions and targeting, but not enough about the creative that we need to build and the production of that creative that needs to happen." - Jeff Greenspoon
2. It's expensive to create content. Use data to validate your decision-making (4:20)
"What's so cool about the world that we're in now is there's so much data being churned out on the back-end of content that you can look at, whether that's engagement rate, watch time, video views, shares. There's such an opportunity to use that data to build into our understanding of what's working and what's not." - Charlie Grinnell
3. The importance of brand purpose (7:21)
"Lush Fresh Made Cosmetics announced in November of 2021 that they were quitting Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok and Snapchat. This was their second time. In 2019, they came off some platforms, then COVID hit, reassessing all their priorities. Lush went back. Now they have come back to the issue. They will keep the social media handles, but will not actively publish on Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok or Snapchat. "How much is that going to cost them? That's no small thing. Some say about 10 million in the short term, which is no small chunk of change. But then when you look at it, it was actually less than 1% of their total sales. I think it's like a great case study for all of us to be watching." - Charlie Grinnell
4. Spend time building trust (17:23)
"Relationship is communication - whether it's with your spouse, your friends. The best relationships have a deep level of trust pretty quickly. When I was on the brand side, anytime we worked with an agency, I would go out of my way to spend a disproportionate amount of time upfront so that they had everything and more than they needed. I wanted to make sure that I was over communicating, because I wanted to give them all the context and nuance in my brain." - Charlie Grinnell
5. Predicting trends - TikTok, the audio revolution, and more (19:39)
"TikTok. It's the wild west there. And, I think the brands that are going to be bold on that platform and test things will see success. You might fail, but even if you fail, you'll learn. As we head into 2022, TikTok has already taken over the entertainment side, I think they're really going to focus on that commerce side. Running tests there and getting your feet wet on that platform is how I'd be thinking about it." - Charlie Grinnell
To hear more 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP16 - Performance marketing vs brand building with Charlie Grinnell and Jeff Greenspoon
15 Dec 2021
00:22:04
We have our first guest host at the CMA Connect podcast!
Jeff Greenspoon is President of Global Solutions, CEO of Canada for Dentsu International and a member of the Board of Directors here at the Canadian Marketing Association.
In part one of this short episode arc on data-driven marketing, he's joined by guest Charlie Grinnell - CEO, Right Metric to discuss how to overcome digital growth challenges in today's climate and beyond.
They dig deep into our obsession with data-driven marketing and define the difference between the good and the great. "Over the next 5-10 years, we're going to see this kind of convergence of internal and external data coming together to give marketers a more holistic picture of what's actually going on, which is going to arm them to make the right decision for their business", says Charlie
Here's some of what they discuss:
1. How to separate what's good from what's great (4:20)
What is nice to have versus the things that really make an impact on business today? What we can learn from big data on how people view the world and interact with it, and use that to challenge some of our societal biases. "Maybe you thought you had a good idea of how things work. But what works today isn't necessarily going to translate to a different industry or a different time."
2. The obsession with data driven marketing (7:11)
Data allows us to quantify human behavior but data is nothing without data-backed insight. Insight is the area that frontier marketers lean into. "I think a lot of marketers have focused on the value of data, and less on the value of data-backed insight. That needs to be top of mind for all marketers. To get you to that actionable insight or recommendation that makes sense through the business lens."
3. Niching down and targeting micro audiences (13:13)
With new software updates being implemented yearly with updates like the removal of cookies with iOS 14.5., marketers are beginning to lose visibility. Rather than broadening our targets, marketers are adapting and niching down by targeting specific communities, being more thoughtful, tailored, and strategic.
4. Brand building vs performance marketing. Are they the same now? (15:53)
Jeff and Charlie agree that the short answer is there is a difference between the two, but they do need to be interlinked together. "I think marketing is art for the sake of commerce, commerce being the keyword. Taking that art and science and building it together, that's where we see the best marketing campaigns. Perhaps the best known example that comes to mind is Spotify's year-end review. Everyone loves when that comes out. It's taking the science side of marketing data, and merging art into it. And every year, it blows up with people sharing. I think that's brilliant."
5. Critical ammunition for marketers (20:56)
Why we have to remember that "every experience customers have is a brand experience - whether it's there to build preference, there to build salience, or there to build a commerce interaction and make a sale", says Jeff.
Charlie speaks of the importance of breaking down silos and recounts his experience leading social media at an enterprise. "I was joined at the hip with our head of eCommerce marketing, because she was overseeing email. Previously that wasn't a thing. I wanted to know everything about the behavior on our emails, because chances are it's the same person who's on Instagram or Pinterest with us. It's about taking those insights and deploying them more holistically. It's critical ammunition for marketers to be able to plan activities that are going to give their brand a chance to be successful."
To hear more 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP15 - Transforming marketing relationships, resources and priorities after the pandemic with Patricia McGregor
08 Dec 2021
00:24:32
Usually the 'bane of the marketers' existence, procurement plays a key role in a pandemic environment, particularly in facilitating a healthy agency-client relationship. In this episode, John Wiltshire speaks to Patricia McGregor, Managing Director of Firm Decisions - the largest global specialist in marketing contract compliance. Patricia shares findings from their recent research in the area.
Here's some of what they discuss:
1. A clear redefinition of procurement (1:55)
Procurement has a very specific role as the conduit between finance and the marketing team. Their primary role is to build and negotiate the commercial relationship between a client and their marketing agency. They should be at the table when negotiations are underway around fees and scope.
2. The non-anecdotal answer to 'what is everyone else doing?' (9:07)
How are businesses reacting to nearly two years in a pandemic? How are agencies responding to discussions around fees and reduced spends? Firm decisions commissioned a study of 100 top marketing and PR procurement executives in North America with a combined remit of $27 billion annually. Via in-depth conversations, these leaders break down what they were doing, and where they are going next as a result of COVID.
3. Leaders are reconsidering how they use marketing partners (11:18)
With the focus firmly on digital, leaders are coming out of a rapid shift in consumer behaviours navigating the need for eCommerce and better targeting. This leads to the question "With our current agency relationships, do we have the right fit?" This can sometimes mean more specialized partners and a reduction of any overlap.
4. Research-backed advice for agencies looking to keep relationships with clients over the long term (18:09)
Patricia says "one key to stability is consistency in (your) team so that they understand (the client) business. (You may) also be challenged by the other agencies that are facing change, who may potentially be poaching those resources. Just retaining the people who can understand your business and deliver on your goals is going to be a real challenge. So the talent gap is something we (should be) really watching."
5. Warning signs for agencies in this environment (19:12)
"There is a fairly strong subset of clients looking for change. It may just be a reassessment, but there is also a thread of 'review and pitch'. Our research (shows) that this was anticipated within six to 12 months, which we're already seeing happening. There is a real pressure among agencies to compete for resources, to compete for the best talent and to retain that talent."
To hear more about the specifics of this research, and how to apply it in your agency-client relationships 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP14 - Balancing purpose and profit with Hope Bagozzi
01 Dec 2021
00:21:03
Most Canadians are familiar with the Tim Hortons brand. It's been around since 1964, and quite consistent with what it stands for. Tim's is about Canadian communities; their restaurants are local meeting hubs. Since the pandemic, that has evolved to people accessing the brand differently - more drive-thru, and online ordering. In this week's episode, John Wiltshire is joined by Hope Bagozzi, Chief Marketing Officer of Tim Hortons to talk about what's changed, what's evolved, and what legacy is being carried on.
Here's some of what they discuss:
The moment of truth for all brands (4:48)The proof is in the pudding (or coffee!). While methods of delivery may have changed over the years from sitting down in the restaurant itself for a coffee, to picking it up at a window, the moment of truth for Tims is in "getting the perfect cup of coffee every time", Hope says.
Balancing profit and purpose (6:48)From a marketing perspective, why getting people to buy coffee and trying to make the world a better place don't need to be mutually exclusive. The importance of a strong purpose that is clear across all you do.
Tims' orange doughnuts initiative (10:59)Their social justice efforts toward reconciliation with Indigenous Peoples. Hope discusses some of the risks that need to be considered within such a large scale effort. And the need to get the tone right with a fundraiser involving donuts and sprinkles connects to an issue of such gravitas.
The importance of taking time to formulate your response to the world around you (15:04)"(Take) more time upfront, consulting, and (thinking about) how you build the program and design it. Rather than being fast, we wanted to get it right. It was less about having some kind of first mover advantage. And that took a little bit more time to do. But it was absolutely the right approach."
The mechanisms to gather the input and feedback needed in your communication (9:35)"We do social listening. We have a council of owners that we speak with regularly that give us feedback. They have cross country representation. We do research with Canadians to understand what's important."
To hear more about how to Tim Hortons approaches their marketing, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP13 - How to increase engagement with SMBs, with Miki Velemirovich
24 Nov 2021
00:26:10
Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in February of 2021
In Canada, small business is big business. Marketing from business to small business (B2SB ®) requires a different strategy, Miki Velemirovich maintains. As President of B2SB (business to small business) specialist agency Cargo, Miki joins John Wiltshire for a conversation about how big brands can connect and engage with the decision makers behind small businesses. He shares how marketing the Mercedes Benz Sprinter van spurred him to find, engage and motivate small business owners (SBOs) to achieve leading market share – and how big brands can do the same.
Here's some of what they discuss:
1. Why people buy what they buy (1:25)
This question prompted Miki to think about consumer behaviour, to try and understand the emotional connection between the business owner and the way a brand makes them feel.
2. The state of mind of SBOs (6:41)
Despite the impact of the pandemic, 82% of SBOs are optimistic about the future. Rather than look at the negative, they're changing their business model through the digitization of their sales channels, business operations and innovation.
3. How to target your messaging (9:19)
SBOs are fuelled by optimism and enthusiasm, so you need to tailor your messaging accordingly. Understanding their personas (Crusaders vs Artisans) will help you shift your messaging from sympathy to empowerment. Another differentiator is how different industries will recover (high-touch models like events and hospitality have a slower speed of recovery), which makes a targeted approach necessary.
4.The value of purpose-driven experiences (15:32)
"Be authentic and do what you say you're going to do", Miki advises. Through a study conducted by his agency, Cargo, he discovered that brand purpose was a strong driver of affiliation for millenials. By tying all your products and services into one ecosystem that's less about a feature than it is about what it can do for them, you'll be solving a problem and helping SBOs.
5. The difference between working for an SMB and a big brand (23:34)
Young marketers who work for an SMB instead of a big brand will learn various components of the business much faster. When you work in an SMB, you learn to be okay with ambiguity and lack of defined structure. This often leads to the kind of accelerated innovation and agility that young marketers would rarely find in traditional organizations.
To hear more about how to market to SBOs and turn them into fans and brand ambassadors 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP12 - The changing face of brand authenticity
17 Nov 2021
00:08:46
It's one thing to talk about authenticity, transparency and the need to be aligned with your customers. It's a total other thing to say how we're going to actually put this into action. It's about the conversation with internal stakeholders. It's a conviction to make this part of your long term planning. And it's a question that you ask at each step of your process: Are we being consistently authentic?
In this episode of CMA Connect, host, and President of the Canadian Marketing Association, John Wiltshire dives deep into the subject of brand authenticity from a deeply personal lens.
John touches on:
His personal health scare from earlier in the fall (1:15) and the decisions that came with it on what and how he communicated information to those around him in his life and his workplace.
How a brand truly is personification. Because we're dealing with humans, and trying to communicate important aspects of purpose and attributes (2:03).
How brands often need to make decisions about transparency and the importance of staying away from portraying a false narrative. (3:24)
The trade off between maximizing shareholder value and meeting customer needs - and why they need to be reconciled (5:00). Value goes beyond EBITDA and share price and into being good corporate citizens (5:55)
Brand authenticity is complex, and ever changing, but the journey must start today.
🎧 Tune in to CMA Connect 🎧 for the full take on the subject as you plan for your 2022 marketing calendars
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP11 - Now is the time to connect, with Mitch Joel
10 Nov 2021
00:26:20
Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in May of 2020
If your brand isn't everywhere, how will it connect? According to Mitch Joel, connection is what everyone is looking for – and we need to make our connections count. The Founder of Six Pixels Group, a bestselling author, podcaster, and former chair of CMA's board of directors, Mitch joins John Wiltshire on CMA Connect to share his take on where brands should go next as marketers shift towards recovery.
On the show, he shares some of his journey from rock journalist to speaker, blogger, and author, along with why brands need to think very deeply on how much more they could use to connect.
Here's some of what you'll learn:
1. Two divergent concepts to keep top of mind (10:23)
These are the two potential paths the world might go down: whether consumers will buy the way they once bought, or if we need to anticipate three years of struggle.
2. Disrupting disruption = innovation (14:30)
With the true digitization that's happening, brands and marketers need to look beyond their physical limitations towards making products and services more open and accessible.
3. Making connection a priority (20:30)
For example, instead of using newsletters to promote your business, use them to connect with your customers. It's tremendously powerful to have a real person write a real letter in a human voice that explains things and provides value.
4.The power of marketplaces (23:44)
Every business, especially marketers, should think about building your own marketplace or how to be part of one. Along with how to be more direct to consumers in a world that's increasingly demanding it.
To hear more about opportunities for disruption and innovation, tune in to CMA Connect.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP10 - Built-in positivity and inspiration drives social commerce, with Erin Elofson
03 Nov 2021
00:20:34
Hello and welcome back to CMA Connect. In this episode, Erin Elofson, who heads up Pinterest's Canada and APAC region, joins John Wiltshire to discuss Pinterest's raison d'êtreand how positivity is built into the platform. Erin shares the difference between social media and personal media, and how brands can deliver ideas and inspiration to pinners who browse with intent. Listen up to find out why the platform should be part of every brand's media mix.
Here's a preview of what they talked about:
How Pinterest started as a way for users to collect and be inspired by things they found on the internet (1:27) and, with 450 million users, whether the platform is growing locally and internationally (2:50).
The difference between social media and personal media and where Pinterest lies on the scale (4:24).
Built-in positivity (4:24) and some of the measures that Pinterest has taken to stay true to this, such as blocking anti-vaccination content back in 2017 (5:54), banning political ads and most recently, prohibiting weight loss advertising.
How Pinterest's content differs from other social media platforms (6:40), coming mostly from brands who deliver ideas to people using the platform with commercial intent (8:28), often to plan for major milestones. And how this presents unique opportunities to reach an audience at the earliest stages of their journey.
Why the positivity behind Pinterest (and their mission to create a positive environment for pinners) is a key reason to include Pinterest in any brand's media mix (11:12).
The importance of trying out different roles and being a 'generalist' when you're starting out in marketing (18:15).
To find out more about Pinterest's social commerce push and why this could help your brand grow, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect 🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP22 - Bridging Brand and Performance with Vivianne Gauci
09 Jul 2024
00:24:40
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, explores balancing brand building and performance marketing with Vivianne Gauci, SVP of Consumer Experience and CMO at HomeEquity Bank. Vivianne advocates for the importance of data-driven decision-making and collaboration between brand and performance marketers to appreciate each other's value in the customer journey.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:13 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.
00:00:14:15 - 00:00:22:12 Presenter With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.
00:00:22:14 - 00:00:45:18 Alison In today's episode, we're tackling one of the most significant challenges that's facing marketers today. Finding the optimal balance between brand building and performance marketing. It's definitely been a debate that's been going on for many, many years with passionate advocates on both sides. But what if the answer lies not in choosing one over the other, but really and strategically blending the two?
00:00:45:20 - 00:01:05:22 Alison Today, I'm absolutely thrilled to have Vivianne Gauci join us for an insightful conversation around finding the right balance between brand building and performance marketing. Vivianne is a Senior Vice President of Consumer Experience and Chief Marketing Officer at Home Equity Bank, where she's been leading the charge in driving business growth through a strategic blend of brand and performance marketing initiatives.
00:01:06:00 - 00:01:27:06 Alison So Vivianne is going to bring you some very real world advice and some lessons from going through the journey herself. Vivianne's worked with two global and Canadian brands, including American Express, Aviva and now Home Equity Bank. So she's bringing a wealth of knowledge and a unique perspective to the table. She's also really known for her data-driven approach,
00:01:27:10 - 00:01:35:16 Alison her ability to rally teams around a common vision and her unwavering focus on the customer experience. Welcome, Vivianne. I'm thrilled that you're here.
00:01:35:18 - 00:01:39:00 Vivianne Thanks for having me, Alison. I'm so excited to be here.
00:01:39:02 - 00:01:49:12 Alison I want to kick things off now with the question around, why, in your mind, has the balance between brand and performance marketing been a persistent pain point for marketers?
00:01:49:14 - 00:02:26:22 Vivianne This is such an interesting question, and I think it's because there is no right answer in terms of what the right balance is. Because there's incredible value to both, and the right balance can be different depending on the industry, on the company objectives, on the stage of growth of your company. And so if you talk to different types of marketers, you'll get different perspectives on the value of their particular discipline and the challenges inherent with the other type of discipline.
00:02:26:23 - 00:02:50:06 Vivianne So if you speak to a brand marketer, they might believe that short-term activation performance-based marketing can be a bad thing that erodes brand equity. Or it can even erode margins. And then if you talk to performance-based marketers, you'll find that they sometimes think that, you know, I can't draw the direct line between brand and results.
00:02:50:06 - 00:03:07:08 Vivianne And, you know, that's what I'm used to. And as so often happens in these types of debates, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, in that there's value to both, and both short term and longer term marketing is important.
00:03:07:10 - 00:03:29:19 Alison That's such a great perspective and you're so right that there's value in both. But if you've grown up in one side or the other, it tends to actually feed the combativeness or the commitment to either brand or performance marketing. And in my experience, and often it's because if they don't have experience doing the other thing, they don't appreciate what it can deliver on how the two can necessarily work together.
00:03:29:21 - 00:03:55:17 Vivianne And, you know, for us, I think part of it is having these two types of marketers working closely together so that they can actually start to see the value in each other's practices. In fact, in one role in particular in my organization, and this is somebody who deals with communications and television as a channel specifically, they do both brand and performance.
00:03:55:19 - 00:04:19:04 Vivianne So, you know, they really get an appreciation for the value of both. But what you end up seeing is that the closer they work together, the more they understand the value in how they interact as part of the customer journey and as part of the funnel. So they actually start to see, oh, okay, so brand creates this emotional connection and creates this affinity.
00:04:19:06 - 00:04:50:12 Vivianne And then the performance marketer picks that up and picks up at that point in the journey and starts driving the customer touchpoint and driving immediate action. So you see the brand marketer triggers the emotional response, and the performance marketer triggers the action. They're both incredibly important because they're part of a continuous journey. So if you can get them working closely together, they'll understand the value of each discipline.
00:04:50:13 - 00:05:15:04 Alison I love that example in seeing the light bulbs go off from where people that are representing different points of view, and instead of feeling like they're competing for the marketing dollars, really starting to collaborate and understand that they're complementing one another and that can build to a much greater outcome than doing it just one way. So as a CMO, how do you ensure that your marketing efforts are directly contributing to the overall growth of your business?
00:05:15:06 - 00:05:38:22 Vivianne I see everything about my job as driving the overall growth of the business. And really, the first point is to understand the customer better than anyone else around the table and providing the insight that is needed to speak to them and ensuring that we're driving value to the customer. Because without starting, without driving value to the customer, you really don't have a business.
00:05:39:00 - 00:05:45:13 Vivianne So that's the first point. That's a key power, superpower, shall we say, of the of the Chief Marketing Officer.
00:05:45:15 - 00:06:06:07 Alison I totally agree that that's actually one of our superpowers. And it sounds so simple when you say it, but it can be harder to bring it to life. So as you're sitting around your executive table, really understanding your consumer to a greater degree than your colleagues possibly can, I'd love you to share a couple of examples of how you've helped them,
00:06:06:13 - 00:06:21:22 Alison the lights go off for them and the value that you can bring, whether it's on the product side or the bank delivery side, or even on the HR side, by really understanding and enlightening them with knowledge of who you're ultimately trying to attract and retain.
00:06:22:00 - 00:06:48:03 Vivianne So I saw that you, and I heard with great interest, the fact that you interviewed Raja Rajamannar from Mastercard a little while ago. And I love his point. He talks about the CMO as having to evangelize for marketing and drive credibility for the function in the organization. And really, it comes down to the ability for a marketer to use data.
00:06:48:05 - 00:07:21:10 Vivianne Data is going to be your best friend. In performance, it will give you the ability to drive the additional investment warranted. Your'll be able to prove your ability to drive performance, obviously, and then a brand, you'll use it to be able to determine what your brand activities drive in terms of behaviours. And so once you start making the connection between this brand activity drives this type of behaviour, you then have to be disciplined about tracking and presenting the data to your senior stakeholders.
00:07:21:12 - 00:07:48:16 Vivianne So really it's about making sure that data is pulled in to be able to support what you're trying to drive in terms of the overall growth of the organization. And then I guess the other key piece in here is the part where we talk about customer experience. And for me, I love the fact that our organization, customer experience falls under the umbrella of marketing.
00:07:48:18 - 00:08:23:07 Vivianne Because when you think about it, customer experience has three key elements. I like to think of it as discovery, design, and delivery. And in discovery, you're listening to your customer and understanding them deeply. Again, back to the CMO superpower of understanding the customer better than anyone else. What needs are not being met? How does the brand resonate? And so you really have this incredible power, being integral or having the customer experience side of the equation under your wings to make sure that you can understand that very deeply.
00:08:23:09 - 00:08:46:13 Vivianne And then the elements of design and delivery is important because you can build an incredible marketing program, but if you can't deliver on the customer side of the equation, then you can waste a lot of resources. And you have to understand the journey that customers are taking. And it starts with their first interaction with the brand. It doesn't start necessarily, even on your website.
00:08:46:13 - 00:09:13:18 Vivianne It starts with potentially something that they see out in the market in terms of a brand ad and then the next touchpoint might be a piece of your performance marketing, and then they start to engage with you in the organization. And so what happens there? Maybe there's a nurturing experience and then fulfillment and loyalty. So if you start to see that it's all part of the funnel, you can see how also the elements are so integrated.
00:09:13:19 - 00:09:39:13 Alison I really like how you distilled it down to discover, design and deliver. It really helps keep you grounded as you're immersed in all aspects of that. So, Vivianne, I'd love to hear about your experience advocating for brand investment at Home Equity Bank and to walk us through that journey. I know from our earlier discussion it wasn't quick, as these things tend not to be, and there are inevitable sort of pivots and bumps along the road.
00:09:39:19 - 00:09:57:10 Alison But to really understand how you got your own team on board, what were some of the challenges that you faced when making the case to the executive leadership team? And you also were doing this in a time where the economy was a little bit challenged, which would have added a whole other level of difficulty, I suspect, to what you successfully delivered.
00:09:57:12 - 00:10:22:12 Vivianne Getting, you asked about the team, and getting the team on board was probably the easiest thing, the immediate team, because when you're predominantly a performance-based marketing organization, as we used to be, you know, you can actually start to see and feel where your performance marketing starts to get a bit sluggish. And you start to immediately think, oh, I've got to start thinking longer term, I, I have to start thinking, fill the top of that funnel.
00:10:22:14 - 00:10:52:07 Vivianne So, you know, that's an interesting part of the equation because as performance marketers, you're seeing that very immediately and you're measuring that. You're seeing very quickly that you need to start thinking differently. And we didn't have it quite then yet. But we were also thinking, okay. And down the line we might have potential competitors. And so how do you start creating that moat to help protect us against any potential incursions?
00:10:52:09 - 00:11:15:04 Vivianne So from there, you know, the good news was that there was broad recognition that thinking about brand would be good for the company, that we needed a bit of a refresh and we needed to think longer term. So that helped. But, you know, I won't lie. We, we stumbled when we came out with our new brand. We shortchanged ourselves a bit.
00:11:15:06 - 00:11:39:13 Vivianne And so to create the splash that we wanted in brand, we slowed down on our performance investment. And this actually hurt us. And so we we actually had to retrench. So we had a bit of a learning, learning exercise. We took a pause. We got everything back to where it needed to be. And then we said, okay, let's explore what happened, because this is a learning, right.
00:11:39:14 - 00:12:10:00 Vivianne So we we went in and we started analyzing all the data. And this is where I found what I considered to be another one of our marketing heroes, which is Binet and Field. The Long and the Short Of It. It's a famous study, and I was able to use that to help illustrate what actually happened to us. And that, yes, we had some short term negative impacts which, believe it or not, actually helped solidify our performance marketing investment because I was like, okay, we can't do that again.
00:12:10:01 - 00:12:27:23 Vivianne I said, no, we can't do that again. But because of the analysis and we were able to kind of isolate, this is what happened when we were, you know, primarily brand. And this is what happens when we have a combination. And this is what happens when we are only performance. I was able to show them some of the green shoots.
00:12:27:23 - 00:12:56:01 Vivianne Of course, brand takes longer, but I was able to show some of the green shoots of where brand was starting to help us make a difference, both qualitatively and quantitatively. So, and again, it's back to those the, you know, thinking about what are the key metrics that brand investment helps to drive that aren't necessarily, you know, fully fleshed out and tied to the end result, but they are critical to starting getting the funnel going.
00:12:56:03 - 00:13:16:09 Vivianne And so I showed research that just talked not about just sales results, but also about the company values, the other thing that I would say. So I tried to elevate the discussion that it wasn't just about our short term results, it was about some longer medium term results. And then I elevated it even further to talk about the overall value to the company
00:13:16:09 - 00:13:31:03 Vivianne as a company. So the fact that brand investment could actually drive company value, and that's where I think it started to really resonate. So I think that third element of bringing it up to a higher level also helped.
00:13:31:05 - 00:13:51:11 Alison Thank you for being so open and sharing some of the challenges that you managed through in a time like that, especially in an organization that had really depend depending on performance marketing and you were driving change to also bring brand to it, knowing the long term benefits of that, for sure, when it doesn't work fresh out of the gate, it certainly test your resolve.
00:13:51:11 - 00:14:13:12 Alison I loved how you sort of retrenched and pivoted and used research and data, and also your knowledge around the green sprouts. Like you did see some early wins and some reasons to believe and stay committed to it. But clearly you leveraged very powerfully in convincing the rest of the organization. So kudos to you, because I know that's definitely not easy work.
00:14:13:14 - 00:14:30:06 Alison Now, speaking of challenges, I also know that the pandemic forced many marketing plans to change course and you were not immune. So can you share an example of how you had to adapt your brand messaging in response to how Canadian consumer needs were changing, and as well as their sentiments during that time.
00:14:30:08 - 00:14:54:16 Vivianne We'd probably been less than a year into our renewed level of brand investment after I had to make the case to get that brand investment back and and all of a sudden, March 2020 hit. And so we were at the time, we were showing an ad. It was our, I call it the sprinkler ad that for those of you who aren't familiar, this is for our product, the CHIP Reverse Mortgage.
00:14:54:18 - 00:15:16:19 Vivianne But it was a brand ad, and it was one of the ads that showed a real estate agent coming to a couple in our demographic that we like to say age 55 and better. And, you know, it was, you know, she was coming knocking once again to see if they were ready to sell their home. And so the wife says, oh, boy, here comes that real estate agent again.
00:15:16:19 - 00:15:43:15 Vivianne And husband says, don't worry, I got this. And you know, he basically clicks on a clicker and it turns on the sprinklers and he soaks the real estate agent. And so the couple has a chuckle and, and it's you know, it's all in great fun. And up until that time, and it was it's funny, that ad resonated so well because usually our audience in other ads, not ours, but in other ads in the media, we did a study.
00:15:43:17 - 00:16:07:17 Vivianne What we saw was our audience, our our demographic of age 55 and better is often the butt of the jokes, is often the target of the jokes. Right? And believe it or not, you know, they're treated in a very patronizing way. They're minimized. And in this case, they were the ones in, in on the joke. Right? They were making the joke.
00:16:07:17 - 00:16:30:05 Vivianne So so that, you know, that was really empowering and resonated so well with our audience. And we got like, maybe 1 or 2 complaints from real estate agents when we first aired the ad and, you know, we said, okay, well, we understand, you know, we get it. The joke was on them, but then all of a sudden, the pandemic hit and everyone was locked down at home.
00:16:30:11 - 00:16:55:06 Vivianne Everyone was feeling a little bit more sensitive, anxious and, you know, some very real emotions close to the surface. And now all of a sudden, we started getting complaints from our customers. And, you know, that maybe, maybe we were being a bit mean to the poor real estate agent. And so we realized, okay, you know, and again, another great reason why it's good to have CX close to the organization.
00:16:55:06 - 00:17:19:03 Vivianne We were hearing this directly from our contact centre, which reported to me. And, you know, we said, okay, maybe it's time we have to stop these ads and pivot. And when we did that, we went to our agency, Zulu Alpha Kilo. And they were able to help us pivot quite quickly with some user-generated content around the theme of, you know, very relevant at the time,
00:17:19:03 - 00:17:37:18 Vivianne Home is Everything. Because everybody was at home at the time and it was, you know, we were able to get those ads out in record time and those tested incredibly well and did really well for us as well, because it was the right message for the time. And people were were happy to hear it.
00:17:37:20 - 00:18:00:00 Alison Vivianne, that's a great example. It's also a great example of how quickly consumer sentiment can change certainly when there's a compelling event like a pandemic, and the way that you were able to once again pivot and really draw on an insight that was also a result of the pandemic where Home is Everything so quickly, really is powerful. I also have to say, I love that - 55 and better.
00:18:00:05 - 00:18:04:02 Alison I'm gonna definitely be using that.
00:18:04:04 - 00:18:08:06 Vivianne We get we get a lot of, compliments on that, actually.
00:18:08:08 - 00:18:11:18 Alison It's very true. That's a mindset we should all embrace.
00:18:11:20 - 00:18:13:02 Vivianne Absolutely.
00:18:13:04 - 00:18:30:18 Alison So how important is it to have the CEO's buy in on marketing as being a key driver of business strategy, and as someone with a performance marketing background, how did you go about establishing trust and credibility with the C-suite before advocating for the brand investments that you were able to successfully sell through.
00:18:30:20 - 00:19:03:18 Vivianne Getting the CEO on board is everything. There was actually a recent McKinsey study that said that CEOs who place marketing at the core of their growth strategies are twice as likely as their peers to have greater than 5% annual growth. So you can see that making sure that marketing is at the core of the strategy for the CEO, that it's important for driving results for the organization. But it's our responsibility as marketers, as a CMO, to get the CEO on board.
00:19:03:20 - 00:19:29:03 Vivianne So I was very fortunate to have both an existing CEO and a CFO who had believed in the power of effective marketing, and it really just started with showing the discipline we had with our performance investments and being able to show consistently over time that our investments were driving results. And we actually have a new incoming CEO, just announced,
00:19:29:05 - 00:19:58:02 Vivianne And we we recently took her through all of the work that we've been doing. But my biggest section by far was on measuring and driving performance across all of our areas, not just performance marketing. So how do we measure and drive performance on brand, on PR, on all of our CX work? All of that was included, and it's important because it's a key to driving credibility.
00:19:58:03 - 00:20:20:08 Vivianne So that's where it starts. But then you also have to show alignment to this, you know, how does marketing align to the strategic priorities of the company, you know, show that you're an insights engine. Because by showing that you're an insights engine, again, you can demonstrate your your super power as a CMO that, you know, you can help drive decision-making.
00:20:20:08 - 00:20:49:22 Vivianne You can help also empower and facilitate decision-making throughout the organization. And then also showing how you're empowering others in the organization is also key and then also showing how you drive critical project impact. But I think it all starts with showing how disciplined you are. Goes back to the the data- centricity and showing how your how you can actually drive performance in the organization, how you have and how you continue to do so.
00:20:50:00 - 00:21:13:06 Alison I'm in such passionate agreement with you. It really is. It builds credibility and speaking the language of business, is also speaking the language of the CEO and CFO. And when they have the confidence that marketers are there to successfully build their business and help them achieve their goals, it becomes a fundamentally different conversation. So what advice do you have for marketers on communicating and influencing across the organization?
00:21:13:06 - 00:21:15:19 Alison That's clearly something that you do well.
00:21:15:21 - 00:21:47:11 Vivianne For me, it goes back to data. We have so much data. We have data about the customer. We have data about the funnel, data about the market. So part of it and goes back to what we talked about earlier about the CMO as evangelist. But part of that role means you're also there to help your colleagues better understand their own points of leverage and where they can drive value through those points of leverage so that you can help them in turn be more successful.
00:21:47:14 - 00:22:13:10 Vivianne So building excellent partnerships with sales, with individuals in operations across the organization, really to make sure that you can work together to to drive ultimate success for the organization. And then, you know, just make sure you're showing how you're not only being a good steward of resources, but you're helping to drive impact to strategic projects across the organization.
00:22:13:12 - 00:22:33:02 Vivianne And how you connect to the overall strategy of the company and how you drive growth. I think that those are important, but I think it really starts with what's in it for them and what you bring to the table. It's again insights and data that that can help them make better decisions and help them drive their own success.
00:22:33:04 - 00:22:41:20 Alison Vivianne, you've got an absolutely enviable career. So I want to close off our discussion by having you share one piece of advice that you would give our listeners.
00:22:41:22 - 00:23:07:00 Vivianne You know, I was thinking about this question because I know you ask it and, you know, I tossed between two key skill sets that are critical for any marketer to develop. And the first is obviously leadership, because even even as a young marketer starting out, you're always leading teams in some way, shape or form, even if it's just leading your agency to help deliver excellent creative.
00:23:07:02 - 00:23:42:08 Vivianne But I think the number one most important thing for anybody in marketing is to develop their communication skills. Because it's the ability to do this work that we talked about in terms of being able to communicate compelling value and communicate in a way that gets people to move and move to action. And being able to do that by appealing not just to their minds, but also to their hearts, because we know that in any type of decision-making, there's always both the heart and mind equation that's involved.
00:23:42:10 - 00:23:59:15 Vivianne So I think being able to develop that skill set where you become not just really good at it, but also very comfortable at it, and I think it's a lifelong endeavour to get there. But I think being able to develop that skill set is is probably one of the most important ones for any marketer.
00:23:59:17 - 00:24:14:01 Alison That's great advice, Vivianne, I really want to thank you for joining us today and for really giving us very actionable advice and for being very open and sharing the journey that you've led and led very successfully. So it's been an absolute pleasure, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.
00:24:14:03 - 00:24:21:05 Vivianne Thank you, Alison, for having me. It's a pleasure being here.
00:24:21:07 - 00:24:33:20 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.
EP9 - Systemic change takes bold action: Introducing CMA's Talent Council, with Nardia Ali and Medhi Rahman
27 Oct 2021
00:21:08
Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in August of 2020
Welcome back to CMA Connect, where two special guests from CMA's Talent Council, Nardia Ali, Director of Talent Acquisition and Engagement at Ogilvy, and Medhi Rahman, Director of Global Learning and Development at Spin Master, join your host, John Wiltshire, to discuss how marketers must adapt to - and create - lasting change.
They share some of their plans and priorities to elevate marketing in Canada by developing thought leadership tools and best practices to foster talent and inspire creativity, while ensuring diversity.
They talk about:
Adapting to change, whether its within the industry, technology or how we connect with our customers – and how this requires bold action along with the responsibility to build diversity, increase representation and create materials that are inclusive, diverse, and representative (3:46)
The three issues of focus for the talent council (6:05):
Addressing systemic discrimination
Competency building to allow marketers to change and evolve
Attracting and retaining the best talent
The advantage of diversity within the Council (11:41), which includes members with different ethnic, academic, organizational and career backgrounds who have an openness to participate, contribute and learn from each other
The benefits of rotating members from one topic to another every quarter to come up with concrete solutions (16:05)
Why change can't be in the moment (19:48): The difference between using and consuming thought leadership tools and practices vs. actually internalizing them to make lasting changes (18:30)
To find out more,🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP8 - How to live your brand purpose during a pandemic, with Trinh Tham
20 Oct 2021
00:24:14
Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in October of 2020
Join John Wiltshire and Trinh Tham, CMO of Harry Rosen, to hear how this retail brand has remained true to their brand purpose, while continuously evolving and pivoting. Trinh believes that marketers have a vital role: to act as the voice of the customer. This means we need to be active listeners – asking what customers want from our brands, beyond product, service, and value.
They discuss:
How Harry Rosen has always been consistent with their values, but these values needed to be refreshed and articulated (2:43) so they would resonate with their customers, both old and new (3:55). But, instead of rolling out a new strategy, they hit pause on their marketing (6:26) and started producing and donating designer face masks (7:53).
The impact of Black Lives Matter and how it forced them as a brand to evaluate whether they were doing enough to help with systemic racism (12:40), both internally and externally.
Adjusting Harry Rosen's merchandising and marketing strategy to provide customers what they want (15:42), for example, shifting from business wear to sportswear ("work from home wear").
Increasing the company's digital spend, a focus on performance marketing and employee satisfaction (17:21) with an emphasis on customer relationships (19:09)
Trinh's advice on setting your brand purpose, stopping, and checking in (with your team and customers), and the importance of authenticity and empathy (21:31)
To find out more about living your brand's purpose, during and after a pandemic,🎧 tune in to CMA Connect on Apple or Spotify 🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP7 - How marketers can use AI to innovate through look-alike sampling, with Erin Kelly
13 Oct 2021
00:27:45
Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in July of 2020
Marketing is one of the leading applications for AI today, according to AI expert Erin Kelly. She joins CMA Connect to talk about Artificial Intelligence (AI) and how it can drive innovation through look-alike sampling. Erin Kelly is President and CEO of Advanced Symbolics Inc. (ASI), a company that uses AI to augment market research and prediction. ASI's patented AI, named Polly™, catapulted the company to fame after predicting BREXIT and the Trump election. Erin now works with major brands around the world to increase revenue and explore new ways of communicating. John and Erin talk about:
The difference between artificial and alien intelligence (3:00), and how AI (such as Google Maps) is already being used daily to help people (5:45).
How Covid-19 has unleashed the power of AI, especially in marketing (7:27) where it can be used to create look-alike sampling or audiences to capture consumer sentiment through representative social media behaviours. This allows marketers to see what tactics have been tried successfully – under many different conditions with audiences who behave very similarly – and get a leg up on the competition.
Market research on steroids – how the Government of Canada was able to get people interested in the environment and sustainable development back in 2019 (9:59) and how AI was able to prove these ads were successful
The importance of topic discovery and how it can help companies create aspirational audiences to drive new sales (15:20) – using the manufacturer of electric automobiles as an example of AI driving innovation
Change point analysis (18:22) and how it helps companies find out whether their ad or communication has created change, for example, when your audience adopts the behaviour you want them to adopt
How AI helps companies measure the efficiency of their spend (23:32) and how easy it is for marketers to learn and implement AI solutions (25:32)
To find out more about how AI is changing the scope of marketing, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect on Apple of Spotify 🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.
EP6 - The future of agencies, with Stephen Brown
01 Oct 2021
00:25:11
Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in December of 2020
This episode of CMA Connect features Stephen Brown, CEO of successful Canadian-based creative agency FUSE Create. The winner of CMA's 2019 Lifetime Achievement Award, Stephen describes the role that agencies play in today's marketing landscape. He shares how agencies can build back better in 2021 and beyond , as well as what young emerging marketers can do to get into the industry.
Here's some of what John Wiltshire and Stephen talk about on the show:
Stephen's trajectory into the marketing and advertising industry (3:15) to become CEO of FUSE Create
What the pandemic has taught Stephen about over communicating (7:43) and the importance of a positive workplace culture (10:08). As well as why you need to provide a path for your team to connect, engage and build, instead of just focusing on financials (10:08)
Whether brands need agencies – and finding the right balance (12:11). Plus, some insights on why outsourcing to an independent agency can help keep the product and connection with the consumer honest (13:58)
If creativity can be quantified (15:00) and whether it should become all-encompassing
The key to effective leadership – showing up and being present as well as listening to find the true issue instead of rushing to fix the problem (17:42)
What's important for an emerging marketer, from building a personal brand and forming relationships through networking to letting your personality shine, being curious and passionate (22:22) and the ability to see opportunity (22:34).
To find out more about the role of agencies in today's marketing landscape, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.
Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.