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What happens when the traditional marketing funnel collapses? In the next episode of CMA Connect, host Alison Simpson sits down with Wanda Fong, country manager for Meta's Global Business Group in Canada, to explore how artificial intelligence (AI) is fundamentally rewiring consumer discovery. Leveraging a rare background in computer engineering and interpersonal communications, Wanda explains why marketers must stop treating AI as a simple "productivity hack" and utilize it to reach entirely new audiences.

00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Speaker 1
Welcome to CMA Connect Canada s marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO Allison Simpson.

00:00:24.760 — 00:01:48.670 · Speaker 2
Today's conversation focuses on a question worth sitting with. What happens when the framework that we've built marketing around starts to stop working? So for decades, we've really operated inside the funnel. Awareness leads to consideration. Consideration leads to purchase. Linear. Sequential.

Measurable. We built careers around that logic. But right now that funnel in many ways is collapsing, and it's happening faster than most marketers realise. Today's consumers aren't always searching for products with intent anymore. They're discovering them through AI powered feeds that surface things they didn't even know they wanted.

Discovery and purchase aren't just happening in the same moment. And if you're only planning campaigns around the old funnel, you're already behind. So to help us make sense of this shift, I'm very happy to welcome Wanda Fong, country manager for Metas Global Business Group in Canada. Juan, this career is a fascinating blend.

She started with a computer engineering degree from the University of Waterloo. Spent years at Microsoft and now leads Meta's business across Canada. That technical foundation gives her a really rare lens on what's actually happening under the hood of AI driven marketing. So today we're going to be unpacking how AI is rewiring consumer discovery, what it means for Canadian brands competing on a national and global stage, and how marketers can stop treating AI like a productivity hack and start seeing it as the fundamental shift that it actually is.

Wanda, welcome to CMA connect. I am really looking forward to our conversation today. Thanks so.

00:01:48.670 — 00:01:50.510 · Speaker 3
Much. I'm so excited to be here.

00:01:50.710 — 00:02:07.130 · Speaker 2
I want to you started as a computer engineer at Waterloo. So writing code, solving very technical problems. Now you're leading a business that's fundamentally about human behaviour and persuasion. What was the moment you realised that your engineering background was actually an advantage in understanding marketing, not a detour from it?

00:02:07.170 — 00:03:16.360 · Speaker 3
I wish I would have said that I had planned this all, but when I started and went into computer engineering, not to date myself, Facebook back then didn't even exist. So I can't say that it was a grand master plan, but when I think back to my time computer engineering, the focus really was on systems design, understanding what issues are, how to break them down, and how to find repeatable, scalable solutions.

But also, when I was starting to look at electives, I took an interpersonal communications class, and I just absolutely fell in love with it, to the point that I actually ended up with a double degree in both interpersonal communications and computer engineering. So I guess I've always really loved the intersection of art and science, and I've just been so grateful because meta is the perfect playground for me to really be able to unpack one of our most complex problems, which is human behaviour and motivation, but be able to do it in a very measured and systematic way.

So honestly, this is my dream job and I've just been so honoured to be able to be part of this profession.

00:03:16.400 — 00:03:34.440 · Speaker 2
I didn't realise you had a double major and that's such a perfect and rare combination. It makes you incredibly well-suited for the career that you have built. So I love that you're following where you see opportunity and potential and areas that interest you. And not being as regimented about law. Got this certain degree I should be going this certain path.

00:03:34.480 — 00:03:35.360 · Speaker 3
Exactly.

00:03:35.400 — 00:03:46.320 · Speaker 2
You're also one of the few women leading a major tech platform in Canada. So what's one specific barrier that you hit on your way up that you didn't see coming? And what did you do about it that actually worked?

00:03:46.360 — 00:06:02.950 · Speaker 3
I feel like it's not about a female barrier or any other barrier, but what's most difficult to address is some of the unconscious biases that we may be holding, because those are invisible and in a way harder to unpack and to solve for. And when I say that, what I mean by that is how are people perceiving you as a person that you are?

So myself, being a female, being Asian, often having been the youngest person in the room, I would also admit probably a little quieter. Does that come across as a tech leader, as people think about it? Or does that come across as a sales person or a person in advertising? And I think those are all fair questions, and they don't come from a bad place.

But people make assumptions every day. We all do. That's how our brains work. And it's important to recognise those and to be able to address them when they need to be corrected or course corrected. But also assuming good intent is really critical in these moments, because I think that often we can put up barriers that potentially don't exist.

I think what's worked for me throughout my career in multiple different roles, and what I really enjoy is this focusing on impact and making people successful. That could be my clients. It could be partners. It could also be my leader internally. One of the things that I feel really passionate about is both mentorship and sponsorship.

I think those are two critical things as we think about women and being able to lift others in our community. Mentorship is very clear, but sponsorship is really equally, if not more powerful. And to me, sponsorship means speaking about someone, advocating for them and championing them when they're not in the room.

I know that throughout my career, I've benefited from sponsors both challenging me to take on new challenges, but also really championing for me and giving me opportunities and rooms that I couldn't represent myself in. So I think identifying those mentors and sponsors and arming them to understand what you're trying to achieve is critically important.

00:06:03.110 — 00:06:18.830 · Speaker 2
That is such an important distinction. So when you have encountered a bias from someone sitting across the table where they might have assumed for whatever reason, that you might not be interested in a role or you weren't the best fit for a role, what have you done to help counter that?

00:06:18.870 — 00:07:11.740 · Speaker 3
I think the most important thing that I go back to is good intent, because it's so easy for us to go down a victimisation rathole, which I fundamentally think is counterproductive. I assume that the person is making these assumptions because haven't been clear enough about the objective I'm trying to reach.

And so I believe that if you approach it with good intent and curiosity and ask questions to understand why they feel that way, that is the best way to respond respectfully and also equally with kindness and grace, so that you're not making it feel like it's an adversarial conversation, but really a collaborative conversation to help that audience member understand how that could be beneficial for them and the business goals that they're trying to drive.

00:07:12.180 — 00:07:58.680 · Speaker 2
That's such great advice. It's so easy to get caught up in that I'm not being treated fairly and be more reactive, but actually having a graceful conversation, making it safe for the other person to admit where they might have made a mistake instead of leading to a tough, controversial conversation is absolutely outstanding advice for all of our listeners.

Now you're also at the forefront of the AI transformation, so I want to dig into that now, starting with the traditional funnel. So we are starting to see it collapse. And that means marketers can't plan campaigns the way they used to. So typically awareness in week one, month one conversion month to month three.

But what's the biggest mistake you're seeing Canadian marketers make as they're trying to adopt now? What should they be doing instead?

00:07:58.720 — 00:09:59.410 · Speaker 3
I mean, when we look at the behaviour, whether you look on Instagram or Facebook or any of the services on meta, it's very clear. First of all, the 3.5 billion consumers on meta all have a different customer journey. And so there is no one size fits all. Some may still follow the sequential journey of awareness, consideration and conversion, and others may transact in one fell swoop with a minute.

And so I think the challenge is really being able to adapt to all of the different types of user preferences. And as we both know, there is an expectation for all brands to be able to do that and adapt to their particular preference and style at the end of the day. For me, the biggest challenge for marketers is that I just think our organisational design at this point does not meet the modern day funnel as you talked about it.

So if we think of a typical marketing organisation, we're organised by brand potentially consideration and performance, then you overlay that with the different channels, be it social or others, and that just doesn't fit with customer behaviour. If I go on Instagram and I see a great jacket that a creator has worn and I'm just really inspired, I go in, I search for different options.

I might chat with the brand and interact with them and ultimately transact. I'm not thinking is that social search or agenda search? I'm not thinking right now, am I in an inspiration mode or am I in a buying mode? But that ultimately is how we're creating creatives, how we're building briefs, and most importantly, how we're incentivising teams and creating success KPIs around campaigns.

And I think that creates some systematic challenges around the actual end goal, which is to create customer centric experiences.

00:09:59.810 — 00:10:15.690 · Speaker 2
Now, AI can also be a terrific leveller of the playing field for smaller brands, so I'd love you to walk us through a specific Canadian SM that used AI Power Creative and share what they did, what changed in their results, and what surprised the most about the process?

00:10:16.210 — 00:13:02.810 · Speaker 3
Oh, this is my favourite topic when I think about SMEs and just the wow that they have that moment, that light bulb moment, it's just my favourite. I'll give you a pattern rather than a specific brand, because that we see this time and time again. I think that if we think about the past without AI, Canadian brands who are SMEs and don't have the same army of resources, we're always limited to maybe 1 or 2 creatives, three at best, maybe some video formats if they had available to them, but it was very limited and they would have the resources to maybe refresh their campaign once a year now with metas advantage.

Plus, with just those three variations, you can apply that to overnight, change text overlays, change static images to motion video, be able to put in backgrounds, be able to leverage filters, convert them to different formats like real stories feeds. I mean, I could go on and on and those three assets all of a sudden with a toggle becomes 15, 20, 30 assets that can be targeted to different users with different behavioural preferences, as we talked about.

And that power of a toggle that's available universally to any business on meta, no matter how large you are. To me, feels truly transformational. Layered on top of that, I think I would be really remiss not to talk about the creator economy as we all talk about, and we all recognise that audiences really trust creators and genuine, authentic message.

And so I've really been inspired by small business owners who've been able to stand up as a brand ambassador. And ultimately, I'm willingly I'm glad they become ambassadors of the brand that really drive results, because audiences are interested in why they built the business, how passionate they are about the product, how they thought about the fabric and the design and what their story is.

And that's all so compelling. And so, in terms of what surprised these businesses, I think it's twofold. One is a surprise that they were actually the bottleneck. And AI sounds scary a lot of times, but it really could be just the switch of a toggle. And the second is, I think, the power of their ambassadorship, them being able to hold up their phone and talk about their business and why they created it.

That story is just so incredibly powerful, and watching them being able to build businesses on the backbone of that story is just incredibly fulfilling.

00:13:03.050 — 00:13:52.490 · Speaker 2
I love that example, and I've seen firsthand when you have a founder of small business owner talking about their why, and the passion was so evident and it couldn't be more authentic. It really is an inspiring way to learn about a product and a business, and ultimately to convert me and many others to want to support the business and certainly purchase.

Now, AI is very broad, and that's probably going to be an understatement of the podcast. It's also constantly evolving, and that can really lead to surface level adoption. Whether brands just using it for simple copy iterations instead of really fully leveraging all that it can do. So how can you help marketers understand the difference between as a productivity tool, which is important, versus AI as a fundamental shift in how discovery and personalisation can work at scale, which can absolutely be transformative.

00:13:52.530 — 00:16:00.450 · Speaker 3
First of all, I want to recognise that adoption is the first step, and it's great that companies are leaning in and leveraging AI as a productivity tool, and we shouldn't dismiss that. More than 8 million advertisers right now are already dabbling, and at least using one of Meta's generative AI creative tools.

And when I think about productivity tools, it's about being able to create copy faster, multiple variants of creative, as we talked about. But where the limitation is, is it's still doing existing workflows just a little faster and potentially more efficiently. To me, AI is a discovery engine. A skill is a completely different ballgame.

It's really about finding customers that you didn't know existed and being able to connect them with brands in a way that you also didn't personally customise. So if I give an example, we talk about having 3.5 billion users on meta. And no matter how large your marketing team is or how unlimited your resources.

It's impossible for us to be able to create customer journey specific to each of those clients based on their interactions, but with meta and our AI engine. Over the last year, we've been able to improve our relevance engine, and that means that at scale, we're able to better predict and deliver experiences that match each unique user based on their behaviours and based on their engagements, and continue to learn based off of that.

And what we've been able to see is user time has gone up, video review time has gone up, but also efficiency has gone up for brands and advertisers. And that happens with every interaction across meta. So that's what I think of when I think about scaled AI impact. It's this repeated ability to deliver impact and improved impact over time.

00:16:00.770 — 00:16:07.450 · Speaker 2
I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Ernst Cliff team for helping bring CMA connect to our listeners.

00:16:10.370 — 00:16:35.770 · Speaker 2
Ernst Cliff is one of Canada's leading independent communications firms, with teams across Canada and expertise spanning public relations, public affairs, digital marketing, data and design. Ernst Cliff brings together national reach, regional insight and coordinated expertise to help clients make sense of complex issues to build trust and deliver results.

To learn more about Ernst Cliff Team and Integrated services, visit Ernst Cliff.

00:16:40.410 — 00:16:57.830 · Speaker 2
Now, when we were chatting earlier, you mentioned that every advertiser on meta is actually already using AI and many of them don't realise that. So can you walk us through a Canadian business example? What were they doing manually? What's now AI powered and what actually changed in their results when they made that shift.

00:16:57.830 — 00:18:59.320 · Speaker 3
When I think about an advertiser even two years ago, when they weren't leveraging AI to its full extent, an advertiser would typically define a demographic and age, a set of interests, potentially for a if they're selling sports apparel, let's say, interests in certain sports. And they would provide some creative they think would resonate.

And the value proposition for meta was that we would then be able to connect a user with this experience that they've basically created in a linear fashion. Now with AI, when we think about the new experience, it's completely different. We're not only finding people that brands have identified that they think have interests, but also other audiences and other potential customers who show interests in many different ways.

This could be that they engage with certain communities or they have a certain buying behaviour, and we're able to connect dots that don't seem that evident initially. And it works. We typically see when people are leveraging these AI tools and releasing some of the control that they typically see, at least a 20% reduction in costs in their total Roas.

And that's real improvement at the end of the day. And so I think that what really surprises advertisers is this aha moment that they were actually the bottleneck. And the most fine conversations I have sometimes is when they see those best performing creatives, they readily admit that would not have been their first choice.

In fact, that would have been maybe one of their last choices, and they wouldn't have created that type of creative. But yet it's one of their highest performing creatives within their campaigns. So seeing that, I think gives people the realisation to question their assumptions and to question whether or not that applies universally to the clients that are available to them.

00:18:59.360 — 00:19:06.320 · Speaker 2
That's a great example. It's also a fun reminder of the earlier topic we opened with around. We all have biases and sometimes they work against us.

00:19:06.360 — 00:20:04.790 · Speaker 3
Yeah. And I want to reemphasize the point that it's not that people's intuition is wrong. In fact, I'm always so impressed. I think Canadian marketers has such a good, strong pulse of their business and what their existing audience base wants from the brand, but I think the bigger potential is to tap into some of these unknown markets where we don't know that could also love your brand too, but they just don't know about it and need the story to be told in a different way.

And the real challenge is to have the courage to dive into and explore some of these different narratives that feel a little further off from their initial brand identity, but I would just encourage brands to try it. You can test this out in smaller markets or different audiences and see what works and doesn't, and maybe consider incorporating some of that into your ultimate brand identity.

00:20:04.870 — 00:20:21.070 · Speaker 2
And the efficiency that is helping deliver means that now a marketing teams of every size have more capacity, have more scale, can do much more niche testing, and help uncover some of those on top markets that they simply didn't have the time to get to in previous years.

00:20:21.110 — 00:20:21.950 · Speaker 3
Exactly.

00:20:21.990 — 00:20:52.110 · Speaker 2
Now, our listeners love to hear about anything that makes Canada different, good and bad compared to certainly in North America, but globally as well. And you have a really unique global view of how marketers are adopting AI across different markets. And you also have deep expertise on how Canadians are doing that.

So can you share where Canadian marketers genuinely are ahead of the curve when it comes to AI adoption, and where are we falling behind in ways that should worry us?

00:20:52.150 — 00:24:08.610 · Speaker 3
It's a complex one to answer because there's so many different dimensions and ways to cut it. But if I look at AI adoption on meta in Canada, overall, I'm really proud of it. I think that it's quite strong. And when we look at adoption of AI tools, so those toggles that we're turning on, we are pretty much a par with most global economies and global marketers.

There's some variation in different functionality, but overall we're on par with the global ecosystem where I think that we are lagging and we have so much potential is in exposure number one, and speed is the second. When I talk about exposure, it's really what are Canadians experiencing on the platform.

And when we look at meta, I really always encourage brands to think about it beyond their typical Canadian advertisers. So typically when I speak to an advertiser, they will say, show me my share of voice compared to competitor A, B, and C within Canada, but we're not really looking at it as a global ecosystem.

And what often surprises advertisers is that within their category, they may be a leader amongst the Canadian brands, but there are global brands who have more exposure, more share of mind, more share of voice, and we're not even considering them in the competitive set as we think about the strategies as we go to market.

So that would be number one is just expanding our view beyond the Canadian competitors, because this really is a global marketplace. And then the second is speed. And I think that this is no surprise to any Canadian marketer. But we are proud fast followers. There's so many meetings that I am in where people get genuinely excited about a new innovation, a new product, and then they will ask, well, who else has done it?

And if there isn't someone else who has done it, who is a larger brand than them? Than they say? Well, that is great, but our brand is a fast follower. My question and challenge in Canada is if we are collectively all fast followers, then who's going to be a leader and how does that get us to being a leader on the global marketplace?

Because ultimately someone needs to take the lead. And so I would just love to see Canadians lean in more to this mindset of being a global leader and not settling to be a fast follower. And the most acute example I could think of is WhatsApp. So we have one of the highest penetrations in Canada. Because of our diverse environment and audience.

It has high penetration. It's highly engaged, tended to build the one on one conversations and relationships with clients. Every day I see global brands interacting with me as a consumer, reminding me to check out, sharing, promotions, etc. And I don't see a Canadian brand doing that yet. Granted, this is a newer functionality, but these are the types of innovative experiences that I'd really love to start seeing Canadians leaning into a little more quickly and embracing that test and learn mentality.

00:24:08.650 — 00:24:28.650 · Speaker 2
I love the challenge to all of our listeners in the Canadian marketing community to not only be fast followers, I'm also interested. Do you see that our SMEs are more entrepreneurial, smaller businesses, more open to experimentation, and less proud about being fast followers? Or do you see it pretty consistently across your client base?

00:24:28.970 — 00:24:58.560 · Speaker 3
There's definitely more openness from SMEs to tests because they have less hurdles to overcome, but I would say their limitation and constraint is also resourcing. So with limited resourcing, they have to be really careful about taking measured risks because they don't have that leeway that larger multinational brands have to test and lean into innovation, which is why I think it's such an opportunity for us to be able to lean into that space.

00:24:58.560 — 00:25:07.080 · Speaker 2
So what's the biggest difference you see in consumer behaviour between Canadian and US audiences when it comes to how they're discovering and engaging with brands?

00:25:07.080 — 00:26:25.180 · Speaker 3
It's really interesting because I think that Canadians ultimately behave differently than US audiences. One of the most obvious ones is we are much more thoughtful about our purchases, large or small. So Canadians typically like to save items more. They think about it. They want to share it with friends and ask for opinions.

They come back to the product multiple times before they end up doing a purchase. I would say that in other areas of the world, the purchase cycle is much quicker and perhaps even more impulsive, but the consideration cycle can often be smaller and the social validation isn't as strong as it is in Canada.

The second thing that I would say is a the difference is cultural relevance really matters and is really powerful in Canada. And that could be either the mosaic of cultures that we have representing Canada, but it could also just be the Canadian cultural identity in itself. And when brands are leading authentically and proactively with their story and showing audiences why they are locally relevant, that they care about the community in Canada that generally performs disproportionately well.

00:26:25.220 — 00:26:45.860 · Speaker 2
So we know that Canadians can be a bit more cautious around data and testing than certainly our US counterparts. And sometimes there are very important regulatory reasons for that. Sometimes it can just be out of habit. So can you share an example where that being a bit too conservative actually cost a brand a competitive advantage, and what should they have done differently?

00:26:45.900 — 00:29:09.900 · Speaker 3
I come from a financial services background, so I 100% understand, appreciate and respect responsible data practices. But I think that sometimes there is a difference between responsible practices and avoidant practices. And that's really where we get into an area of risk and concern. One of the key areas that I feel really passionate about, that's underutilised on the meta platform, for instance, is the use of app installs and purchases.

So leveraging Meta's platform to drive consumers to go and make purchases or discover a brand through their first party app, which is something that they invest a tremendous amount in and has ultimately a superior and more secure experience. I remember in one case, I asked a brand why they weren't doing that yet, because it seemed like a huge opportunity, and that brand just said that it was a decision from privacy.

I asked what the challenges were so we could reflect those back to our product team and try to have them address. And actually nobody remembered why. The answer was no and nobody remembered who said no. And I would actually say that this is very common with marketers. I often see that they turn away from any opportunity that requires legal or privacy reviews, no matter how big the business case is.

And I just think that that's such a loss and comes at such a cost to Canadian marketers. But I do have a lot of empathy for why that behaviour is happening, because the friction is just so high. The hoops that teams have to go through, the amount of documentation, the months, sometimes years they pursue these opportunities just doesn't feel worth the cost for the teams, and the incentives aren't there for them to do that, even if it makes sense from a business perspective.

So I really think that this is something from a regulatory perspective we need to address as an industry. It's about being more responsible about how we leverage our resources and how we can help teams overcome some of these decisions so that we come to the right ones.

00:29:09.940 — 00:29:42.820 · Speaker 2
The consequences for marketers and getting that wrong are significant, so I can absolutely appreciate why they're treading very carefully. And when we think about ultimately what should be our guiding principle, it really should be around making sure that everything we're doing from a marketing perspective has the best interests of Canadians at its heart.

So I think that can be a good guardrail to hopefully encourage Canadian marketers to take some measured risks, as long as they're ensuring that Canadians best interests is at the core of what they're doing.

00:29:42.900 — 00:30:04.480 · Speaker 3
Absolutely. There are so many instances where they aren't personally identifiable information or just use cases that we haven't fully explored, but we've just stopped that project because we haven't done the due diligence. Who understand, is this actually a risk, or is this a discomfort? And really leaning into that conversation.

00:30:04.640 — 00:30:59.190 · Speaker 2
And Canadian's views around privacy and what they expect from advertisers is also evolving. And it's certainly it's a bit of a roller coaster, but they do increasingly expect that there is a value exchange for when they're sharing data with brands of any kind, that they're getting value back from that.

And the brand is about using that in the best interest of the consumer. So it's such an important conversation and such a balancing act and making sure that we are always doing what is in the best interests of Canadian consumers. At the same time that we are building Canadian brands and businesses. I want to even super generous with your time, and I know you're incredibly busy.

So I'm going to end with my classic question and CMA connect podcast. I'm lucky to have really inspiring leaders like you as my guest. So I would love you to share one piece of career advice for our listeners and giving. You had a very unique path and experience. I'm very curious to hear your piece of advice.

00:30:59.630 — 00:32:13.930 · Speaker 3
Yeah. It's funny. Our number one piece of advice for advertisers, as you know, is to test and learn frequently. And I would say the same for career advice. Test into areas that you haven't explored, really push on your assumptions and build adjacent skills that are transferable beyond different disciplines.

I think we all live in an uncertain world, but it's also a world in my view of endless possibilities. As I mentioned, Facebook didn't exist when I went to school. There was no way for me to plan for this role, whether it be career, what to pull my got, what experiences I got. But it's really ultimately anchoring around, driving value and finding different ways to provide value to your stakeholders.

So I would say the same for careers is don't be so rigid about needing to have one ultimate destination, because it will most certainly change 3 or 5 times through your lifetime. But be flexible and see each part of the journey just as another phase and an opportunity to learn something different that will provide richness to your perspectives.

00:32:14.370 — 00:32:23.530 · Speaker 2
Under those absolutely great advice and a wonderful note to end this conversation on. So a huge thank you for sharing your experiences and your insights, and a really great conversation.

00:32:23.530 — 00:32:24.770 · Speaker 3
Thank you so much.

00:32:27.450 — 00:32:40.370 · Speaker 1
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA for and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Great marketing careers aren't built in a single lane. In this episode of CMA Connect, host Alison Simpson welcomes Air Canada's managing director of promotional marketing, Raymond Ludwin, to explore his journey from agency strategist to client-side leader. Discover the strategy behind Aeroplan's 2025 campaign, a triple-Gold CMA Award winner, and why stepping out of the boardroom is critical to understanding the Canadian consumer. Finally, Ludwin reflects on the leadership mistakes that shaped his career.

00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:24.120 — 00:02:48.530 · Alison
The best marketing careers aren't built in a single lane. They're built by applying strategic thinking across different contexts, learning what works in each industry and developing a breadth of expertise that can make you valuable anywhere. Today's guest is a terrific example. Raymond Ludwin has built his career by moving between agency and client side roles and working across very diverse sectors, including telecommunications, coalition loyalty and travel.

Throughout this journey, he's developed deep expertise spanning brand strategy and marketing, consumer research and loyalty marketing. And he's always been focussed on delivering marketing that drives real business results. I've had the distinct pleasure of working with Raymond twice, first at a branding agency where we tackled complex strategic challenges together, and later, as senior marketers at Rogers Communications. I have always valued his strategic thinking, his very collaborative approach, and his genuine curiosity about understanding what actually drives consumer behaviour in business outcomes.

Raymond's career trajectory offers important lessons for marketers today. After brand strategy roles at several agencies, he worked in brand and corporate affair roles at Rogers. Raymond then made the move to Loyalty One, where he led brand strategy and customer experience for Air Miles, at the time Canada's largest coalition loyalty program.

In 2018, Raymond joined Air Canada, where he now serves as Managing Director of Promotional Marketing, leading the team responsible for turning marketing strategy into bookings and revenue. Raymond also led the development of Aeroplan's "Stop Sitting on Your Points" campaign, which took a hat trick of golds in the CMA's 2025 awards in the Business Impact category.

They won for Brand Engagement, Shopper Marketing and Brand Impact. Beyond his corporate leadership, Raymond gives back to our profession. He serves on the CMA's Marketing Talent Committee and is a judge for industry awards. Today, Raymond will share how to pivot quickly and drive results, as well as how Canadian consumers are evolving, including demographic and regional differences that he's seeing in his business.

Raymond is also happy to talk openly about his mistakes, as well as successes. In an era where AI is evolving faster than anyone can master it, where political and economic volatility creates constant uncertainty, and where the pace of change demands agility over perfection, that kind of honest reflection is exactly what our listeners need to hear.

Raymond also has a very fun story involving butter tarts, so they may have to tempt out of him. Welcome, Raymond. I am thrilled to welcome you to CMA Vonnect podcast, and I'm really looking forward to a great conversation.

00:02:48.570 — 00:02:57.810 · Raymond
Thank you so much for having me, Alison. I feel this is kind of like the Barbara Walters or Anderson Cooper's opportunities for marketers. So it's really an honour to be interviewed by you.

00:02:57.850 — 00:03:10.060 · Alison
So, Raymond, let's start with your career journey from agency to client side and across very distinct industries. What lessons have you learned from that transition, and what guidance would you offer marketers that are thinking about the next step on their career path?

00:03:10.100 — 00:04:21.660 · Raymond
Well, I'll say off the bat that my career journey has definitely not been linear. I think calling it peripatetic or serendipitous would be maybe the most accurate thing. But on reflection, one learns about one's career journey, perhaps more so than one plans for it at the outset. And I think for me, what the most important learning was truly understanding what motivates me and keeping that core to how I think about how my career evolves.

I realized early on that I'm highly motivated by complex industries that have challenging marketing problems and interesting customer dynamics. So mostly I've looked at my next opportunities as being places where I ask myself, could I just imagine being stimulated and not bored five years from now?

I think secondly, you know, I got really good career advice myself early on, which is whenever you're looking at a particular role, ask yourself what next doors would this role open up that I could leverage into the future? And then finally, you know, and I'm sure this would resonate with everybody, you know, we spend as much time in our work environments, sometimes more than we do at home.

So making sure that time is spent with people you respect and have fun with, grow to turn into friends is incredibly important and makes a career satisfying.

00:04:21.900 — 00:04:46.900 · Alison
That is such great advice, and we're certainly an example of where meeting professionally, working together and turning into a friendship. So one of the wonderful outcomes of the profession. So you've developed expertise across brand strategy, marketing research, loyalty marketing. And that's just a few of the broad toolkit that you bring to any business that you join.

So how has having the breadth of skills shaped your effectiveness as a marketer and your ability to really deliver business results?

00:04:46.940 — 00:06:42.640 · Raymond
Well, I think, sometimes I think it's I think expertise is being generous, that's for sure. And certainly as I've gotten more senior, I, I sometimes feel like I'm now becoming more and more surface level at all these skills as I carry on in my career. But that being said, you know, that breadth of experience that I've enjoyed and continue to gather by working with people who now have their own expertise in those various marketing skills, what I learned from them, what that does, it really allows me to fit all the pieces of marketing strategy together and determine, you know, from which areas we will drive the right impact.

And I think that is the thing that having that diverse background really facilitates. You know, I love to cook. And so the analogy I would make, it would be it's sort of a little bit like when you need to start working without a recipe, you have some sense of maybe the ingredients you can use. You don't know the proportion, you don't know how they'll all fit together, but you know, you use your previous cooking and eating experience to imagine something new that can be creative.

And that only comes with practice and time and having that breadth of expertise. So I really benefited from having that, you know, that diversity. All of this for me, really came to a head when we relaunched Aeroplan in 2020 because in many respects this was highly uncharted territory. We were doing this right at the outset of Covid.

So that was a seismic moment in travel, not just travel loyalty. We were repatriating a very well-known but somewhat tarnished brand, and there was a huge customer experience and value proposition lift that we were creating with the Aeroplan relaunch. So our ability to go off a standard playbook was very, very small.

So being able for me to lean on some of those activities in my background across different industries and marketing activities, gave me the confidence that the marketing relaunch that we were planning might just work. And so you don't really realize how much you've had those experiences until you're challenged with a project or an opportunity where you know there is no playbook and you have to just rely on what's now bred in the bone or what has become instinct.

00:06:42.880 — 00:07:03.160 · Alison
Well, I love the energy of constantly learning and comfort with ambiguity, because with the pandemic being a prime example, especially in your industry, none of us knew what was coming, how long it was going to last. So being comfortable, not knowing and being comfortable, seizing the moment, figuring out, okay, how are we going to solve this together is mission critical for any leader, and certainly in the marketing profession.

00:07:03.360 — 00:08:07.610 · Raymond
You use the term ambiguity. And for me, that's so resonant because I often talk to my team about this, that ambiguity is uncomfortable, but it is also where the most interesting opportunities lie. Many of us work in matrix organizations, where roles and responsibilities aren't always obvious, and those come to the forefront when something new and interesting happens or presents itself that touches everybody.

And one can either turn around and say, well, I don't know whose job that is and this is going to paralyze us. Or one you can turn around and say, well, because it touches everybody. It's an opportunity for collaboration in ways that we hadn't thought about before. And if we focus less on whose job it is or what the right process is, and more focus on, what are the outcomes that we need to drive together, magic happens.

And it brings the best of a matrix organization to life. And that is what I call these ideas of productive areas of grey. There are unproductive areas of grey where things are just badly-designed, but there are productive areas of grey where a project or a cool marketing opportunity comes to life, and the right kind of organization with the right kind of attitude can really seize on that.

00:08:07.650 — 00:08:29.930 · Alison
Now, I've also heard you say, don't let perfection get in the way of progress, which is so smart. But many of us get caught on it's got to be perfect. It's got to be like 99%. But with our ever evolving marketplace, agility is increasingly important and can actually be a real competitive advantage. So can you unpack your philosophy for our listeners and share an example of where this approach has really paid off?

00:08:29.970 — 00:10:44.900 · Raymond
What it means is we we have a goal in mind, but we don't let today's solution be an impediment, even if it's suboptimal to to actually driving towards an eventual outcome, we get the confidence to take the first step. You know, for me, one of my favourite examples of this is we do a celebratory end of year email that we send out to our Air Canada base of the kinds of activities that they've done within the Air Canada and Aeroplan ecosystem.

People really look at the end of the year. Their travel activities are part of the story they tell themselves, and so we wanted to contribute to that. It's a little bit like Spotify Wrapped, which is, you know, for was for us a very high bar to shoot for. I mean, Spotify Wrapped is like I'll say, near to perfect, right?

And so as we look at how do we do our version of that, you know, the point of comparison of Spotify Wrapped became a little bit challenging. And when we decided to do this for ourselves four years ago, we maybe had some technical challenges that were beyond something that Spotify would have had to worry about. We had so many data sources to pull from, and many of them aren't in real time.

And so for us, there was a real risk of overshooting what we tried to capture in terms of our customer's behaviours and then not fully capturing the right kind of content and data, which would actually create anxiety for people because many of them are tracking their flights, because they're looking to get more points, or they're looking to achieve status.

And so the risk of trying to be comprehensive and therefore more relevant was very much balanced against how do we make sure that we're accurate. So basically what we did is we just started with what is the minimum amount of data that we can be confident in? How do we make sure that all of that data can be properly piped into the CRM engine and basically work with our amazing internal creative partners to develop something really cool and then just watch it and see how it did.

And we actually had incredibly high engagement in that first year, and that meant that the team felt confident in delivering it the following year, adding more data sources, adding more data sources. And now we're at well over 100 data sources that feed into everybody's individualized, and personalized Wrapped experience, and we just see the engagement getting better and better. And much of the feedback we get, our base just talks about how much they look forward to it, and it's such a fun recollection of all the trips that they've taken. I still don't think we're all the way as good as Spotify Wrapped, but it just gives us motivation to just keep on progressing there.

00:10:45.220 — 00:11:00.990 · Alison
Well, I love that you didn't walk away from the idea because it was going to be really hard and you ran the risk of, this works because it's ultra personalization and without the right data sources, not having done this before, if you shot too big the first year, you could have had the exact counter effect.

00:11:01.030 — 00:11:01.670 · Raymond
That's right.

00:11:01.710 — 00:11:25.430 · Alison
I absolutely love it. So kudos to you and your team for pulling it off. Now, you've always been very open and authentic, not just about your successes, but where you struggle as a marketer. And no one that's successful in our career gets there without mistakes and without struggles along the way.

So can you share a mistake or two that taught you a valuable lesson? And maybe by sharing it, we can spare a couple of our listeners from going down the same path.

00:11:25.630 — 00:11:28.510 · Raymond
So just like 1 or 2, because I have a lot to choose from.

00:11:28.510 — 00:11:30.350 · Alison
You can go with your top two. How's that?

00:11:30.390 — 00:14:41.680 · Raymond
Okay, well, maybe I'll start on a serious note, which is to say, you know, in all honesty, the mistakes that have really given me the most amount of long term heartache, they're actually not the marketing ones. They're the HR ones where I haven't addressed problems in the team in a timely fashion, or I haven't helped people reach their full potential, or I've put people in roles or in situations where they haven't been successful or happy. 

You know, those are mistakes that I've made that have, you know, affected people's lives in a meaningful way and not in a good one. And so those are the mistakes that haunt me still. And then I would also just say maybe, on an also serious note, marketing mistakes are relatively easy to rectify. By contrast, at Air Canada, our first and most very sacred value is safety first always.

And so there's a part of the business that is rightfully allergic to mistakes. By contrast, my team and what we do and the mistakes that I myself make, yes, they have very serious commercial implications. But unlike many of my colleagues, people's lives aren't in the marketer's hands. So that means if I mess up, I have to find other ways of making up the revenue that I forfeited.

But that's a maybe a less serious mistake than, you know, than the mistakes that we really worry about here at Air Canada. So I'm good with that kind of mistake where you can learn from it, you can fix it, you can find more revenue. It's liberating to know that there's a solution that can insulate or provide a bit of insurance against some of those risks.

So I'll give you a little bit of an example for my maybe from my Air Miles days, I led a rebranding effort at air miles, and one of the things we really wanted to focus on was pushing a common Air Miles design system that we would effectively impose on our retail partners to use in store. The thinking being that if customers could recognize Air Miles everywhere, it would make them more and more engaged in the program.

That looked great from our perspective, sitting in the boardroom or on a PowerPoint slide, but out in the wild in busy and cluttered retail aisles, that effort got really lost. We weren't sensitive to individual retail design systems of many of our different partners. 

And I can be quite persuasive, and so I persuasively convinced everyone, don't worry about this. You know, collectors will eventually get used to seeing all of these in-store, all of the POP en masse, and eventually start to seek them out. Nope. It just didn't work. People ignored it. People missed it. We used research. We found out, you know, that this, in fact, was not working.

People were not buying things on bonus as much as they were before. It truly failed. And so we quite inconveniently, inexpensively had to rip out all of that signage, eat a little crow, and then build our own Air Miles signage that was less about our brand and more about the brand partnership with the retailers in whose store we were putting up the signs.

And so I learned a lot from that. You know, two things. One is I'm actually not particularly good at brand design, so I now leave that more to some of my very talented colleagues. And two, marketers really can't be too precious. You can start with the best of theoretical intentions, and then you really have to figure out, how is this actually going to work and accept a well-aligned solution that maybe 90% of the way there, 80% of the way there, but at least is, you know, everybody's bought in and is working versus something that looks amazing, is 100% on brand and then, you know, fails.

00:14:41.680 — 00:15:07.170 · Alison
Thank you for your candour and sharing those examples. And you're absolutely right. And I love the learning you shared around the Air Miles brand example. And that also speaks to the importance of getting out of the boardroom, walking through your different coalition partners, physical spaces, whether they're gas stations, retailers, and really understanding how it's going to come to life and what you're competing against.

And that's a lesson that I've learned a few times in my career, and such a powerful one for sure.

00:15:07.370 — 00:15:45.570 · Raymond
Well, 100%. I mean, if I think back to your career and having clients like Tim Hortons and understanding their, you know, the actual Tim Hortons environment, it's one of those things that's so easy to say and so hard to do, because there are so many meeting demands on our time, and it feels like you can never get out of the office, but that's just never lost.

I get this now with getting to participate in activities around our operations at Air Canada. It's so fascinating. And I come back filled with so many ideas from our incredibly engaged frontline co-workers. And it's irreplaceable. There's nothing like that. And it's a lesson to continually remind oneself about.

00:15:45.610 — 00:15:53.380 · Alison
Because you're right, like, we're so busy getting little work done that it feels can indulgent to take that time out, but you never regret having done it for sure.

00:15:53.420 — 00:15:54.540 · Raymond
Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:54.580 — 00:16:01.020 · Alison
I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Earnscliffe team for helping bring CMA Connect to our listeners.

00:16:03.980 — 00:16:29.380 · Alison
Earnscliffe is one of Canada's leading independent communications firms, with teams across Canada and expertise spanning public relations, public affairs, digital marketing, data and design. Earnscliffe brings together national reach, regional insight and coordinated expertise to help clients make sense of complex issues to build trust and deliver results.

To learn more about Earnscliffe team and integrated services, visit earnscliffe.ca.

00:16:33.580 — 00:16:52.500 · Alison
Now, often leaders put the pressure on themselves or feel the pressure from others to only share their successes, to pretend they have all the answers. Which is just such a ridiculous thought to think that any of us have all the answers. But why do you think it's important for marketer leaders to be much more open about the challenges and the mistakes they've made along the way?

00:16:52.940 — 00:16:54.420 · Raymond
I think there's sort of two reasons.

00:16:54.420 — 00:19:09.710 · Raymond
One is I have a great mistrust of hubris, either in myself or in the people I work with. And over time, I've learned to, you know, when I'm feeling really adamant about something, I have to very much self-interrogate. Why am I feeling adamant? Have I thought about this enough? Have I, you know, have I analyzed it enough?

Have I, am I really sure why I can be adamant? And I think that having a degree of uncertainty is important because then you also are open to, if this isn't going to work, you could recognize the signs of it. That extends to the people I work with. You know, when my team comes and presents to me, if they are able to tell me where they think it might go wrong, they'll have my full-throated support.

And when they seem like they're infallible, they don't. Because I worry that they haven't thought things all the way through. I had a wonderful compliment once from a woman on my team at Air Miles, and she was just an incredible co-worker. So smart, so dedicated, was just awesome. Anyways, I sent them down a particular path where I had an idea on how we were going to drive collector engagement, and it involved a particular kind of earning challenge that the collector would do.

It was way too complicated. It was like not going to work. Anyways, the team went off and did a bunch of analysis on this, and they came back and they presented to me the data that basically said my idea was stupid, and I could tell they were pretty nervous about it and they were like, presented this, this deck.

And at the end of it, I listened to them like, well, that was a dumb idea of mine. I'm glad we're not doing it. Please don't waste any more time. And they stopped and they were like, they were so surprised because they thought there would be pushback. And I said, well, if you can't push back on me on a bad idea, then what kind of confidence would you have in my leadership, in your own ideas? And it just created such an incredible bond as I worked with this person. On reflection, when more, she and I worked together, it had built that sense of trust that we could rely on one another, whether I was her boss or she was my employee, or vice versa.

We could rely on one another to challenge ideas, to make them better, to keep on honing and honing and improving. And I think this is the important part about being a leader, is you have to recognize when your ideas are bad, and the more you own up to it, the more your team will have the confidence that when you're supportive of them, it's because you know that they're on the right track on something.

00:19:09.950 — 00:19:22.710 · Alison
You also will make them more comfortable realizing when they have an idea that also isn't great, after they've done and spend a little time with it, you've made it safe for them. Say, you know what? I don't think we should spend any more time on this. So that's a great example of leading by example.

00:19:22.950 — 00:19:29.110 · Raymond
But typically I have a greater proportion of dumb ideas than they do, so it's constantly renewing resources, this particular example.

00:19:29.150 — 00:19:45.600 · Alison
Now your role gives you a really unique lens on how Canadians are evolving. So we've got renewed patriotism. We've certainly got uncertainty around tariff. We've got economic challenges. So how are Canadian's travel plans and buying behaviours changing and what shifts are you seeing in their marketplace behaviours?

00:19:45.720 — 00:21:26.690 · Raymond
You know, you're so right, and I have a privilege of working in a category that has very high aspirational meaning to people. You know, the purchases they make in travel are highly symbolic of themselves. So really, travel's such a unique lens on Canadian's state of mind, and it's such an interesting barometer by which to look at the dynamics of consumers in Canada.

A couple of really interesting things are going on. This may be a structural effect post-Covid, but people are very willing to prioritize the travel experience as part of their overall travel plans. Along with hotels, we're really seeing high, high interest in premiumization. So pre-pandemic, the front of the plane was especially sold to corporate travellers.

But now we're much more likely to see leisure customers willing to spend a bit more on comfort because they weren't able to travel for many years during the pandemic. And now they know come hell or high water that trip, it matters to them. And that trip is super important. And so they're willing to spend a bit more on on comfort, that could be at the front of the plane, but it also works all the way to the back of the plane. A bit more room, nicer food, etc. and our product team is really leaning into that premiumization, and that is a great opportunity as a marketer to try to ensure that we are not seen as a commodity element of the travel experience and something that is worth marketing the value of.

Another interesting sort of dynamic going on right now is just how, in times of economic uncertainty, people are still prioritizing travel, but they're booking way closer in. We're seeing, you know, the booking window, which is what we refer to as a difference between when they actually make the purchase for a trip and when they travel, shorten quite significantly.

You can understand why, as people are wondering, like, where are the places that are going to be best to travel? What's the money that's going to be in my wallet when I when it comes time to travel and so on and so forth, you can understand and empathize with why people are making those decisions. But it certainly makes for a wild ride for us, both for my revenue management colleagues as well as, you know, for us, because it means that our traditional marketing calendar for routes is really kind of out the window now.

We have to be a lot more adaptable to where the gaps and opportunities are as our load factors change and how, you know, the difference between, you know, a flight that's filling profitably and one that isn't, it becomes more acute in the timing of it. We are also you know, you spoke about tariffs, we are definitely seeing the effects of Canadians evolving relationship with the U.S.

While it's true that Canadian leisure travel going trans-border is certainly softer than in 2024, what's really bounced back is corporate travel. Companies realize the U.S. relationships that they have need to be nurtured and booking activity on Air Canada is reflective of that. They are spending the time to be close with their with their American customers, with their American colleagues.

That's not going away. Furthermore, actually, one thing I'm really proud of, both as a marketer, but also just as a Canadian, is seeing how our booking patterns reflect the broader trade diversification patterns that our current federal government is pushing for, as the government looks to ensure that Canada is set up for the future and is present more globally.

We're actually seeing a parallel amount of activity for some of those places happening in our own network. And so, you know, it gives me a lot of pride that we're helping to contribute to how Canada makes inroads around the globe. One maybe further thing is, as the world seems more unsettled for people, it also means that their traditional destinations that they rely on are perhaps less of a sure bet.

And, you know, we're actually, in an exciting way, extremely well-positioned to take advantage of that. You know, as two examples, we'll be flying to Sapporo and Tenerife this winter, places where, you know, many Canadians haven't thought about going on vacation before. And so now my team and our and my job is to start to drive interest in places that people hadn't considered, you know, which is super fun.

And that's possible because Canadians are looking for diversified options that they may not have thought about before 2025.

00:23:41.060 — 00:23:50.820 · Alison
I'd love to build on that and hear from you, are you seeing differences in how Canadians are buying and making travel decisions compared to Americans or travellers from other countries?

00:23:52.460 — 00:25:47.560 · Raymond
So a key sort of difference in the Canadian travel industry is how focused Canadians are on package holidays, much more so than Americans. And actually, in that vein, we're more in keeping with Europeans. What's interesting about that dynamic is Canadians are looking for more and more things to be packageable.

And if you think about how generative AI is changing the shopping experience, this is one area where we are really looking to evolve our product offering to help build travel options and travel packages in a more dynamic way to match that changing demand. We're an industry that is extraordinarily intertwined with the way people change and use technology in general, and that's been the case since the adoption of online travel way back in the early 2000. 

And it continues to be the case now. In many respects, though, particularly from a regional perspective, we actually have more in common than than different. You know, Canadians have certain typical trips they do. You know, be it sun trip a year, be it a trip to visit family, be it maybe every once in a while, a big foreign destination adventure.

But what varies less is those archetypes and what varies more is where, is the where they go. So, for example, customers in Vancouver are much more likely to find those sun options in Pacific Mexico and less so East coast, which is where a lot of the Ontarians go. Things like, you know, there's some really wonderful Caribbean gems that are very popular among the Quebecois, particularly because they're francophone islands.

And where we're having a lot of fun as a marketing team is actually introducing some of those never considered sun destinations by non-francophone markets to Anglophone markets. You know, getting people to, in Ontario to think about why or why are the Quebecois was so excited about Guadeloupe and Martinique as examples.

So in many respects there's a lot of variation in terms of place and timing for Canadian travel, but some of those core needs are almost innate. They're common across the country.

00:25:47.560 — 00:25:55.120 · Speaker 2
Now beyond regional differences are there demographic patterns that are emerging? Are Gen Z purchasing very differently than Gen X, for example?

00:25:55.320 — 00:27:23.560 · Raymond
For sure. And there's sort of two really big, let's call it structural changes that we're seeing. One is almost the decline of what we might have considered shoulder season. In fact, September, October in some areas are as big for us as July and August for some of those traditional transatlantic trips.

Massive traffic, even going into November. And so that has really changed the nature of seasonality for us. And what's driving that, it's older consumers with more flexibility, still very keen to have travel options, maybe looking to avoid the heat, maybe looking to avoid some of the crowds and changing their travel environment into some of these shoulder seasons.

It's actually great because it means that it flattens out our demand curve quite significantly and allows us to run our network a lot more efficiently. So that's one way that we, you know, again, have had to adapt both in terms of the segment as well as the marketing calendar, to try to take advantage of that.

The second thing, and you know, this may sound like a platitude, but our younger travellers are much, much more likely to be seeking out unique and memorable travel experiences as part of their trips. Lessons, excursions, experiences with locals. And that's a big opportunity as we evolve to be more of the travel retailer I was talking about earlier and sell travel more dynamically as part of these larger experiential ecosystems.

I wouldn't say we've cracked the code on that. There's a lot of work to do, but it's definitely something that we're going to need to be spending an increasing amount of time thinking about as a travel company.

00:27:23.760 — 00:27:30.320 · Alison
You know, are the younger travellers also finding packages as appealing? It's just the type of packages that they're gravitating towards are different?

00:27:30.360 — 00:28:09.730 · Raymond
That's right. They're looking for much more individualistic packaging, perhaps less of that kind of traditional old packaging that, you know, the industry is used to. I would also say, you know, a bit back to the point around premiumization. You know, it used to be that you would look at the front of the cabin and see, you know, a lot of grey hair like mine.

And increasingly we are finding that younger travellers are really prioritizing travel over and above many of their other discretionary or non-discretionary household expenditures. And so a real interest in sort of the premium travel experience, premium travel credit cards and so on, that is reflective of the meaning that travel has for that younger generation.

00:28:09.730 — 00:28:19.050 · Alison
Now given your brand expertise, and we're all in a very volatile environment. What can marketers do to protect and strengthen their brands while they're also remaining agile?

00:28:19.410 — 00:29:35.700 · Raymond
That's a huge question, and I'm going to maybe take it in a slightly, I don't know if it's going to be controversial way, which is to say, you know, I think there was a period where brands thought a lot about some higher order questions around their role in society and so on. Honestly, I've become convinced that brands shouldn't be so self-engrossed and should be less engaged in abstractions about purpose, etc.

I think if we're honest with ourselves, the average customer does not need a brand to be their spiritual life partner. I think for me, you know, remembering how we make money, which to my mind is the ultimate sign of a customer's respect for you, they're willing to give you their hard-earned cash. Think about why they're willing to do that and the meaning it has for them to do that, and then do an amazing job on delivering that emotional and rational value that satisfies them.

Do that enough times and consistently enough, and that's how you build long-term brand health. I think that, you know, the era of us being part of the conversation in that way, I don't know if that was ever going to be as sustainable as we might have hoped it will be. And I think this idea of going back to basics and remembering why we add value and how we can be useful in people's lives, is an incredibly important thing.

00:29:35.740 — 00:29:55.100 · Alison
Well, and by being useful in people's lives, by adding value and doing it in a distinctive way, that is all about building the brand. It's also keeping the business interest, and not just the desire, the need to continue driving growth and tangible business results in marketers, regardless of what sector we're in at the centre of everything that we're doing. 

00:29:55.140 — 00:30:09.340 · Raymond
One hundred percent. I'm proud as a marketer that I sell stuff, because when I sell stuff, not only am I bringing value to a customer's life, I'm bringing value to the business. And I think that it's a noble pursuit and we don't need to self-aggrandize beyond that.

00:30:09.620 — 00:30:17.540 · Alison
It's why marketing exists, absolutely. To motivate consumers to actions that will benefit the business and also benefit the consumers.

00:30:17.580 — 00:30:18.580 · Raymond
Couldn't agree more.

00:30:18.980 — 00:30:39.190 · Alison
Loyalty has been a big part of your career, certainly a big part of your current mandate as well. And like everything around us, consumer loyalty in Canada is changing a lot right now as well. So what are some of the shifts that you're seeing in loyalty behaviours, and how do you think marketers should be thinking about evolving their loyalty strategies in order to make sure they're really keeping those strong customer relationships.

00:30:39.230 — 00:32:34.400 · Raymond
It's a great question you're asking, and one that certainly I think a lot about, and I give a ton of credit to my Aeroplan product design colleagues who thought very, very seriously about this when we relaunched the program. And the phrase that they used as they thought about how to future-proof Aeroplan was this idea that, you know, remembering that loyalty is a two-way street.

And once upon a time, you know, loyalty behaviour was exactly that. We used points primarily as a transactional carrot to get people to turn left into one gas station instead of doing the easier thing of turning right into the other gas station. And it worked. I mean, there's no doubt about it, but and it still works to a degree.

You know, loyalty is still a behaviour driving marketing exercise. But more than ever, what I see is that, you know, customers want to point to their trackable behaviour, which we have now given them the tools to do, right, to see exactly what their loyalty is adding up to. They point to that trackable behaviour and they see that both as an achievement for themselves, but also as the right for them to have higher expectations of the company to whom they have given their loyalty.

They actually want to be engaged in product event. They feel that they have a right to a higher level of service because of the loyalty that they've provided. And they're very, very vocal about that. And good for them, and I think rightfully so. So anyone who runs any kind of loyalty program or even just loyalty exercise, whether it's formal or not, really needs to be thinking about and asking themselves not only what business outcomes they want to see from their customers, but rather what loyalty are we demonstrating to them, and how do we ensure that they see that?

Because that is in fact the two way street element, right? It's the yes, you've given me some points, but I have shown you loyalty as your customer. What is the reciprocity? And that can look very different, you know, across different industries. But certainly for us figuring out how to make that experience even better for the people who have shown us the most amount of commitment is top of mind all the time.

00:32:34.400 — 00:32:43.360 · Alison
Well said. Now you serve on the CMA's Marketing Talent Committee. So what skills do you think marketers need today that are most different from when you started your career?

00:32:43.400 — 00:35:21.610 · Raymond
I think there's some things that are truly timeless about marketing skill sets that never, frankly, never change. I think marketers have always needed to be and will always need to be insight-gatherers, pattern-recognizers, problem-solvers, opportunity-makers, all of that. In fact, I think the evolution of AI is just going to shine a light on those marketers who can use AI tools to do that better versus the ones who aren't.

So I think those skill sets, you know, that will will continue to exist, and layering on top of all the technological advances that we've been able to make. But for me, what's changed the most is just the sheer number of levers to pull now and all of the different channels or marketable opportunities, whatever you want to call them.

And frankly, sometimes I think my head is just exploding about all the various tactical balls that we have in the air at any one point in the campaign. But that said, it's also kind of liberating in the same way that, you know, no single ad is ever going to be now a silver bullet. We don't have, like, the real value of sixty-second anthemic TV spots.

And maybe good riddance to that, because while that maybe once was an easy sell, the flip side is no one tactic is going to break you and it's not going to make you, but it's not going to break you, so you can afford and you have to afford to be trying a whole bunch of things all the time that are, you know, new. It's exhausting.

There's no question about it. But it's also kind of fun because, you know, back a little bit to the conversation we were having about trying new things and taking risks. Like, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day. Rome wasn't going to crumble in a day. And the same thing with the brand, right? We can have a tactic that doesn't work.

We can see the results very quickly. We can pivot. They can throw the money at something else, re-evaluate. You know, it's all fine. It'll all work out. As I think about sort of all of those levers. We talk a lot about test and learn. I think the one thing that marketers really need to think about in that context, and this comes back to some of those enviable skills that you know that need to be maintained.

You know, there's a real risk today and not pausing to do the learning part. In fact, the right way to think about it in my mind is actually learn and test, because you have to know before you do a test, what do you think you might want to learn from it and to actually, like, carry it? What is the hypothesis, depending on the answer. What might we do differently if we learn that the hypothesis was true or not true?

Then if you know what you want to learn, then do the test. Because what often happens is we move so quickly that in this idea of test and learn, we just test. Don't have time to learn, okay, test something new, test something new. And it's like Groundhog Day all over and over again. So you have more and more levers going on all the time, but you haven't actually figured out, well, when we do a test, why are we doing this test?

And so this is something I have to catch in myself. Something I certainly push in my team is it's actually learn and test and then learn and test, not test and learn.

00:35:21.850 — 00:35:38.780 · Alison
That's such a great observation because we all are agile, need to be even more agile. But that does not excuse us from spending a bit of time up front to figure out, why are we doing this? What do we hope to learn? We can't shortchange the strategic piece at all, or we'll just end up wasting time and energy and redoing a lot of work for sure.

00:35:38.820 — 00:35:39.620 · Raymond
So well said.

00:35:39.660 — 00:35:53.180 · Alison
I definitely cannot let you go without asking about the butter tarts, so please share with our listeners how you used your wonderful marketing skills to get a judging spot at the Royal Winter Fair's Butter Tart contest. One of my favourite Raymond stories.

00:35:53.540 — 00:36:49.900 · Raymond
Well, I would say we talked a little bit about my career journey. There has been no single thing in my career that has caused as much activity on my LinkedIn profile as my butter tart experience. And it's actually maybe less about a marketing activity, and it's more about just entrepreneurial gumption.

I basically was a regular attendee of the of the Royal Agricultural Fair, and I was on an email list and they were talking about the butter tart, um, judging festival. So I just wrote to them and said, "Listen, I am a very committed eater of butter tarts. I come to the fair all the time. I believe I have a, you know, very well-defined version of the perfect butter tart that I can use as a as a way to come and adjudicate all the butter tarts that are offered."

And shockingly, they called me. They questioned my perfect butter tart model, and they said, "Well, as a matter of fact, you can come and try over 50 butter tarts in three hours," which I will say probably brought me as close to going into sugar shock as I've ever come. But it was totally worth it.

00:36:49.900 — 00:36:54.060 · Alison
And coming out of that, you now have a favourite butter tart place that we have both benefited from.

00:36:54.100 — 00:36:57.700 · Raymond
Yeah. Shameless plug for Doo Doo's outside of Peterborough.

00:36:57.940 — 00:37:14.020 · Alison
Now, as you know, I end each episode by asking my guests to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps. Throughout this episode, you've shared a lot of really great advice. So what's one parting piece of advice that you offer to marketers who want to be the next Raymond?

00:37:14.060 — 00:38:22.710 · Raymond
I will share one small amount of advice, which is to say I've met many great marketers over the years. So the through line that runs through all of them is something that can't be trained, but rather has to be nurtured. And that kind of natural marketing capacity, really comes down for me to three characteristics curiosity, empathy, and imagination.

And it's, you know, I think marketers who display those are able to adapt to all sorts of different consumer, you know, situations. Imagine different kinds of campaigns, think about how to work with technology differently. It's sort of those emotional, those are the foundational characteristics.

It's really easy if you have those to let that wither though, because without enough oxygen, those characteristics are hard to maintain. And so my own personal advice is find the things for you that help keep those characteristics alive. And for me, I'm a firm believer in reading fiction because I think all the great literature, older or modern through the ages, has asked readers to engage with that, you know, curiosity, empathy and imagination. And I really do believe that stuff, that's a wellspring of natural marketing capability that we need to make sure we keep alive.

00:38:22.830 — 00:38:30.750 · Alison
That was great advice to end on, Raymond, thank you so much. I knew this would be a very fun and insightful conversation, and you absolutely have delivered. So a huge thank you.

00:38:30.790 — 00:38:45.230 · Raymond
It has been a pleasure to be on your show, Alison. And maybe I'll also just say, you know, I know you're retiring shortly and, you know, you've had an incredibly impressive career to watch. And I congratulate you on your retirement and wish you all the best as you go into the next chapter.

00:38:45.270 — 00:38:50.070 · Alison
I will definitely be taking benefit of some of those shoulder season travel plans that you mentioned earlier.

00:38:50.110 — 00:38:51.190 · Raymond
We look forward to your booking.

00:38:51.230 — 00:38:52.350 · Alison
Absolutely.

00:38:55.350 — 00:38:57.549 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca
and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

How does a global beauty brand earn genuine Canadian relevance when "Buy Canadian" isn't an option? Sephora Canada Senior Vice-President and Chief Marketing Officer Allison Litzinger joins Alison Simpson, newly retired CMA CEO, to reveal the strategy. Discover what drove Sephora's 18-place jump in the Ipsos Canada's Most Influential Brands study, the thinking behind the WNBA Toronto Tempo founding partnership and why the boldest move in your career is usually the right one.

00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Speaker 1
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23.840 — 00:02:39.090 · Alison
In a market demanding Canadian authenticity, how does a European-owned retailer become one of Canada's most influential brands? The answer lies in creative problem solving and strategic marketing leadership. For today's episode, I'm very happy to welcome Alison Litzinger, SVP, Chief Marketing Officer at Sephora Canada.

Alison and I share more than a first name. We also took a very similar approach to our careers, starting with agencies where we rose through the ranks before taking on leadership roles client side, where we led creative and business transformations. Alison spent over 18 years building brands and businesses on the agency side, including 14 years at Leo Burnett, where she rose to Group Account Director. Her agency work has been internationally recognized, including at Cannes Lions, The One Show, Clios, CMAS and the Marketing Awards. This extensive creative pedigree really established her as a senior strategist and creative marketer before transitioning to retail marketing.

Allison's impact at Hudson's Bay Company, where she served as Vice President of Marketing for nearly four years, earned her recognition in the rebranding, marketing, and digital transformation of the Bay. Since joining Sephora Canada in 2022, Allison has driven absolutely remarkable results.

Sephora Canada was named "Strategy Brand of the Year" in 2024, and was recognized as one of the "Movers and Shakers" in this year's Most Influential Brands in Canada study, gaining a surprising 18 places and overall ranking, which is significant growth. Under Alison's leadership, she launched Beauty at the Bentway, building community space to connect Clean at Sephora beauty products and lifestyle.

She also led the "Sephora Illumination Powered by Colour IQ" experiential campaign, which has been recognized for creative innovation and effectiveness at the Epicas, Effies, Drum and Media Innovation Awards. Allison has also pioneered community first marketing initiatives, including launching the Sephora Squad Canada, a paid Creator program, and orchestrating Sephora Canada's founding partnership with WNBA's Toronto Tempo last year, demonstrating her strategic vision in women's sports marketing.

Beyond her corporate achievements, Allison contributes to the CMA and the broader marketing community. She served as Co-Chair for the CMAS Brand Council and as Co-Chair for the 2022 CMA Awards. Welcome, Allison, it is my absolute pleasure to have you here today and I'm looking forward to a great conversation.

00:02:39.090 — 00:02:41.130 · Allison
Thank you so much for having me, Alison.

00:02:41.250 — 00:02:55.490 · Alison
Now you've spent over 18 years with agencies and earned international recognition from amazing awards including Cannes Lions. So what drew you to make the shift from agency to client leadership at Hudson's Bay? And what surprised you most about the transition?

00:02:55.530 — 00:04:10.540 · Allison
I'm asked this a lot, Alison, actually, and I think there are a couple of things that shaped my decision. But but probably the, the primary one was the evolving agency and client relationship. You know, we were at a time about eight years ago where budgets were being squeezed on the client side and the agency client relationship was becoming much more transactional.

And I really wanted to have a role where I had more impact over the brand versus only the communications. And then also there's, you know, the growth opportunity. I've been on the agency side for, you know, a number of years on a variety of businesses, and that gave me great challenges. But probably for my last, you know, 4 or 5 years, I felt like I needed more of a growth opportunity and to stretch myself.

What drew me to the Bay was obviously it was an iconic brand, and they were looking to really transform the brand. It was a role to be the VP of Brand Direction and that was quite exciting as an opportunity. What surprised me about this side of the business is probably how many parts of the business that I'd never truly been exposed to on the agency side, working with senior clients and also the complexity of operations behind the business and how much marketing actually happens beyond the work that clients and agencies are doing together.

00:04:10.580 — 00:04:59.430 · Alison
I had similar motivation for moving to the client side and absolutely similar learning as far as the breadth of what you're exposed to, the business knowledge that you gain, the operational side of it, and just the wonderful opportunity to expand your marketing toolkit, but also your business toolkit and open up new opportunities for yourself.

So I can absolutely see the appeal on what's kept you on the client side. So let's talk about a fascinating brand and business challenge. During renewed Canadian patriotism, many retailers are leaning heavily into by Canadian messaging. But Sephora is European, owned by LVMH, and Canadians often mistake your brand as American, yet you've obviously been great at countering that, because Sephora has been recognized as one of the "Movers and Shakers", gaining 18 places in this year's Most Influential Brands study. So walk us through what drove that significant increase?

00:04:59.470 — 00:07:17.080 · Allison
Yeah, I mean, Allison, what a year we had last year. And it really, truly was a challenge for every marketer with such a huge shift in consumer behaviour and mindset. And, you know, we really had to evaluate what was right for our brand in this kind of new environment where consumers were really thinking Canadian first.

But given that we are a global brand and we do curate the best in beauty from around the world Buy Canadian was certainly not, you know, our angle or our way in. And so, you know, we had to look at what, what was our way in. And we really looked at what that deeper motivation was behind the Buy Canadian sentiment.

And, you know, if you truly looked at what was driving that behaviour, it was Canadians were, you know, fearful. They were fearful for their economy, for their lifestyle, for their nationality and their identity and sovereignty of Canada was really threatened at that time. For Sephora, the task and the marketing pivot became about supporting Canadians, really elevating Canadians and what was important to them and making sure that we were meeting them where they were by continuing to be truly culturally relevant in the moments that mattered to them, by building Canadian community, and also by bringing a sense of joy to their world in a time of uncertainty and as a beauty brand, we have this very joyful and exciting category that we can continue to convey and to communicate, to provide that joy.

So there were a few big things that we leaned into, and I do believe those had a big influence on how we were perceived as a brand in Canada and led to some of these increases. And the first was truly leaning into Canadians, as I mentioned. And that meant leaning into Canadian creators, Canadian partnerships, and the right partnerships that really mattered to Canadians at that time, and leaning into truly Canadian insights to connect with communities across the country.

The second was refocusing on the value we drive as a retailer beyond just the sale. Knowing that economic uncertainty was so prevalent in Canadians' mindset, so we really focused on that from a marketing perspective and thinking about the value that we drove. And last, as I mentioned, bringing kind of the joy of beauty to life through our tone, so we were a brand that people gravitated to and wanted to involve themselves with.

00:07:17.240 — 00:08:01.650 · Alison
Those are great insights, and especially the bringing moments of joy and realizing the role that your brand has and bringing that, especially in uncertain times. It's powerful even when times are great, but in uncertain times when we're questioning a lot, to be able to go into a brand retail experience or online and have that sense of joy is a wonderful compliment to your brand as well.

Now, you've also been a bit of a pioneer when it comes to sponsorships, with Sephora Canada becoming the first founding partner of the WNBA's Toronto Tempo. So you're clearly early to women's sport partnerships more broadly. As women's professional sports, we're starting to get some long overdue recognition.

So how do you identify which cultural moments to invest in, and what was the strategic thinking behind the WNBA partnership specifically?

00:08:01.690 — 00:11:06.980 · Allison
Sure. Well, I think as a marketer, it's always a challenge. There are so many moments out there. How do you really think about what makes sense for your brand? But I guess when when we talk about which cultural moments we invest in for Sephora, it's really about us harnessing what Canadians are excited about and where there's a relevant and authentic connection to the category, and making sure our brand is really at the centre of the conversation and where the buzz is going to be.

And of course, we have to tie that to where the relevant opportunities are from an audience perspective and the growth of our brand. And so this was the thinking behind several of the cultural opportunities we've leveraged. For example, like the the Taylor Swift tour that was here, there's such a tight intersection with beauty and getting ready for the concert and music and and there was so much buzz around that in Canada.

We really wanted to make sure we were a big part of that. And the same goes for Toronto Tempo. I think this, you know, WNBA team, the first expansion team coming to Canada, had this level of excitement that we wanted to be a part of and an a relevance to our brand. And also, you know, the growth of the league in the U.S. was kind of monumental at the time.

It was new for us here, but there was so much buzz around the league and the athletes were all almost turning into these kind of cultural icon status athletes. They had this iconic cultural relevance in the U.S. and we were hopeful that that would translate to Canada. You know, when we talk about a partnership being authentic to your brand, we definitely saw the authentic intersection between the WNBA athletes and the teams and beauty.

We had been thinking about women's sport for at least a year prior to this and thinking about, you know, the different leagues that had come into Canada. And it was really, truly the WNBA specifically that, you know, was embracing this other side of the athletes, the self-expression and the individuality of the athletes that they encouraged through the game, on and off the court, that we felt had kind of this real relevance to what we do as a brand and to beauty. 

And you see it, you know, the athletes in the WNBA are very outspoken and the causes they believe in. And you also see them, you know, walking into the games with their fits and their fashion and what feels like them.

And they come onto the court, you know, in the same uniform to play the game, their hair, their makeup, how they choose to express themselves plays a key role in the game on and off the court in a way that other women's sport didn't do quite as strongly. So the intersection of self-expression in the game made this really an authentic way for us to harness the excitement.

And I'd say the kind of last piece to this decision was that it was truly a fresh, new way to live our purpose. You know, We Belong to Something Beautiful is our brand platform. Our mission is to keep expanding the way Canadians see beauty and celebrate beauty. And this partnership would allow us to communicate our brand point of view, really challenging conventions around who belongs in beauty and where beauty belongs, and that belonging in beauty is truly about being your authentic self.

00:11:07.100 — 00:11:40.780 · Alison
It is such a strong fit for the brand. When you explain the rationale behind it and the level of individualization that you're helping celebrate in the league and for Sephora Canada and the strong fit obviously to your brand's vision. I also want to personally thank you for being one of the first brands to really support professional women's sports in our country. It's such a long overdue opportunity, and such a powerful new opportunity both for Canadians to engage and see women accomplishing at that level as well and for your brand.

So a huge thank you for rising to the occasion and being one of the first sponsors.

00:11:41.020 — 00:12:04.230 · Allison
Absolutely. Like we could not have been more excited to do it. It's a matter of finding the right fit. We want to elevate women. We want to elevate the power of women's sport. But, you know, what is the right intersection for us, and the WNBA felt like exactly that. And that's why we reached out one week after the expansion team got announced to make that call, because it felt like the perfect way in for us, and we didn't want to lose that opportunity.

00:12:04.350 — 00:12:21.350 · Alison
That's great. I love that Canada was the leader that way as well. So a huge congrats on that too. 

Allison:
Thank you. 

Alison:
Now I know the customer for beauty and how they're learning about engaging with beauty products is certainly evolving. So I'd love you to share a bit about Sephora's key customer groups, and the degree to which men are also engaging with your brand.

00:12:21.430 — 00:14:27.360 · Allison
Sure, I would say, you know, we often talk about customer groups in terms of demographics, but at Sephora, we like to talk about them in terms of mindset. From a brand perspective, I mean, we really want to look at the total beauty audience. We are a mass beauty retailer and we want to capture the full beauty haul.

That means really going out with a key mindset. And you know, for us, that's about the beauty curious, the beauty explorer and those who are kind of looking for the best in beauty and want to know the latest, the hottest, and really love playing and touching and feeling beauty and are immersed in that world.

But we also, of course need to look at older, younger, men, women, as all marketers do and beyond mindset. And so we do curate kind of our category and our product marketing by segment. Of course, we have a wide breadth of curated best in beauty, and we make sure that we are addressing kind of different generations through different innovation, through different product categories, through different needs of clients.

And also, of course, we have very personalized digital marketing that's based on consumer behaviour and really taps into those needs of clients and customers looking for certain beauty products to fulfil those needs. You know, I don't like to say we're talking to everyone, but I also think we do need to broaden out of specific segments and making sure that we appeal to a mass beauty audience, because most are using beauty.

Men are also beauty-involved. A few years ago, you know, people looked at me and said, men? Why would we target men? Um, but, you know, even from a prestige beauty perspective, about 27% of the market is men's product. Um, younger men are definitely engaging in beauty more than ever, and feel self-care is just a part of their routine and a part of their daily life.

So we absolutely are speaking to men from a broad perspective and welcoming them into the brand, as well as from more of a personalized product perspective. And they are very into fragrance. We see them in our store, but they're also using skincare and hair care as well.

00:14:27.400 — 00:14:34.840 · Alison
That's great to hear. I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Earnscliffe team for helping bring CMA Connect to our listeners.

00:14:37.800 — 00:15:03.210 · Alison
Earnscliffe is one of Canada's leading independent communications firms, with teams across Canada and expertise spanning public relations, public affairs, digital marketing, data and design, Earnscliffe brings together national reach, regional insight and coordinated expertise to help clients make sense of complex issues to build trust and deliver results.

To learn more about Earnscliffe Team and Integrated services, visit earnscliffe.ca

00:15:07.770 — 00:15:20.770 · Alison
Now our listeners always love hearing about any differences that brands are experiencing in Canada compared to other countries. So are you seeing differences in how Canadians engage with beauty compared to the U.S. or other countries?

00:15:20.850 — 00:16:00.530 · Allison
I'd say I mean, there are more similarities than there are differences. There are a lot of similarities globally with beauty and for between Canada and the U.S. especially. But we do have some differences in mindset. You know, the Canadian beauty shopper definitely prefers a simpler beauty routine. They don't necessarily wear as much makeup or reapply as much beauty during the day as some other markets.

Our consumers here also over-index on interest in clean beauty products. That's part of why we've really dialled that up from a marketing perspective. And then the clients and consumers in Canada are also more value-oriented, in general, but that also applies to beauty specifically.

00:16:00.570 — 00:16:05.570 · Alison
Can you share an example where understanding these differences changed your approach in Canada?

00:16:05.890 — 00:17:01.340 · Allison
Yeah, I'd say we do demonstrate the differences through our creative approach, which is a little more nuanced than just, you know, a campaign. We think it's very important to have not only the representation of our communities in Canada, but also that, you know, the talent we portray show a simpler approach to beauty and how we portray them, how they look, how we do their beauty in our creative and how that's represented.

And then, you know, certain things are different. We've gone much bigger in driving awareness of our clean and planet-aware category, such as Beauty at the Bentway and connecting clean beauty products with clean lifestyle. And we've also been the first country globally to develop loyalty marketing that acts as a brand builder.

So big awareness, brand building, loyalty marketing, knowing how important value is to the Canadian consumer and how much loyalty plays a role in their beauty journey. So those are just a couple of the initiatives we've leaned into locally here that differ from other parts of the world.

00:17:01.380 — 00:17:15.939 · Alison
Now, when you arrived at Sephora, the brand wasn't very mass from a media perspective and was quite digitally-focused, so growing the business required a more balanced approach. How did you make the shift while maintaining the social and influencer investment that's key in beauty?

00:17:16.260 — 00:18:27.740 · Allison
I'd say that thinking really came from, you know what every marketer comes in to do, which is grow the business. And, you know, we had this incredibly loyal community of beauty-involved clients, but we needed to go beyond speaking to our own clients and audiences that were living for beauty and that we're super beauty-involved, and we needed to attract the rest of the beauty community that just lived with beauty.

Beauty was a part of their lives, and they're likely not following all the beauty influencers on social. They might not wear a lot of makeup versus engaging with other categories, and so we needed to broaden who we appeal to to keep growing. And that meant ensuring we were top of mind for really anyone who shops beauty in any subcategory.

And that meant broadening our media channels. You know, social and influencer are still highly important, digital marketing is crucially important, but we had a real lack of familiarity around Sephora for a mass beauty audience, and that's what needed to change to help us continue to grow. And to get to know the brand, you need storytelling channels with attention, drive and creative, and so that meant going into more mass media channels and balancing that with the digital world and complementing our digital strength.

00:18:27.780 — 00:18:50.230 · Alison
So building on that, I know the reality is influencer and social media have always been where beauty happens in your category, so there's still a significant investment in social influencer across channels. Now, that sounds as much like a cultural insight as it does a media buying decision. So how do you maintain the creative instinct about where conversations happen while managing retail budgets and improving ROI?

00:18:50.430 — 00:20:35.520 · Allison
That's a good question. I mean, I think this is the art and science of being a marketer and making sure that you still have gut instincts and are relying on those in addition to looking at the data. But I would say, you know, there's obviously an element of instinct just from living on the channels. And that's key, I'd say, to any marketer.

You know, a lot of marketers sit in a room and sit and sit in a boardroom discussing plans, but don't immerse themselves in the media and know what's going on. And I think that's crucial to keep strong instincts about where to be and how to show up. And then on the flip side, there's also a ton of data around this and the success of social.

I know there there's so many marketing discussions about how do we measure social, how do we see the ROI on social? And it's, everyone is right, it's not as transparent as other media channels, but there are a lot of other signals that can prove the value. You know, we see that social and influencer drives incredible amount of earned media value.

That is a great measurement tool of its success. And then in terms of pointing to social and influencer being important to the conversation in a category, you can explore search trends, engagement metrics versus other categories, content that focuses on your category versus others. And also you can see the kind of explosion of influencers and user-generated content that's talking about and shaping beauty trends.

And last, we also know from consumer research that social and influencer ranked quite high on what influences beauty discovery. So there's definitely a gut instinct and making sure that you understand how the channels are being used and seeing what's happening on those channels. There's also a ton of data that's showing how important that channel might be in your category that might be under-utilized right now to help guide that decision making.

00:20:35.800 — 00:20:51.320 · Alison
In a market where many Canadian brands lagged the U.S. in leveraging and investing in creators, your Sephora Squad Canada Pay Creator program has been a long term brand building play. So what was the strategic rationale and how does this differ from traditional influencer marketing?

00:20:51.360 — 00:23:04.530 · Allison
Well, the Sephora Squad program actually exists in other markets. So there's been success stories for us in both the Middle East and the U.S. market for Sephora Squad. And the strategic rationale for bringing it here was for a few different reasons. The first was we were in this particular Canadian first mindset and supporting Canadian creators, showing that we were supporting the Canadian community was very important to connect with Canadians.

And also, we know that Canadians engage more when there are Canadian specific programs. So, for example, the the U.S. program used to be open to Canadian creators to apply, and we saw more than six times the application number for our own Canadian program versus being a part of the U.S. program, even though the U.S. program is, you know, gold standard.

And so this is just kind of another proof point that investing in Canadian programs, investing in Canadian creators, investing in Canadian initiatives drives more engagement with Canadians. This shouldn't be surprising to us, but sometimes it is because not everyone is investing in the country and what we have here, and we believe it's so important and and really is helping to drive our success.

So some of the other rationale around it, of course, is creating more authentic brand and influencer partnerships and truly bringing them into the Sephora universe. This program immerses them into our world, with our brands, with our founders. We share best practices on content creation with them, so we really elevate them in their own creator careers.

You know, the influencer world can be quite saturated. I mean, we see influencers one day doing something with one brand, the next day they're doing something with their competitor. And having this kind of creator ambassador program creates a more authentic partnership with us because we establish a relationship with them over time.

And that's really what we wanted to do with this program is make sure that we establish more credibility with with our creators and the influence they have on the consumer and the viewer, as well as elevating our specific communities in Canada. It truly allows us to make sure that we are representing our unique Canadian communities across the board.

00:23:04.690 — 00:23:31.130 · Alison
When you were talking earlier about some of the unique things you've seen in Canada versus other markets, you highlighted that Canada from a loyalty perspective is a very strong market, and it's also the only market where your Beauty Insider loyalty program is also a brand builder. So that's such a spectacular program, it's widely recognized as a loyalty leader in Canada and globally, and I'd love to hear what you attribute that success to.

00:23:31.250 — 00:24:58.110 · Speaker 3
I think the Beauty Insider program has been extremely successful across North America, and I do think that we can attribute that to both the functional and emotional value that our program provides to the consumer. We know loyalty is often thought of as very functional, points-driven, a points value exchange, and it drives strong transactional value.

But emotional connection and loyalty is so deeply important to the consumer in making them feel valued. And we know, I mean, loyalty with a brand is like any relationship. You want to feel valued. Feeling valued in your relationship drives engagement, and you know, from a brand perspective, it also drives loyalty to the program and the brand more broadly.

That's the goal, and not just loyalty to the program, but that you're loyal to the brand because of the loyalty program. And that's truly what we want. We want brand connection and the, you know, the emotional drivers for the Beauty Insider program are really created with the beauty customer in mind. The mechanics are based on a deep understanding that discovery of beauty products is what drives consumer behaviour in the category.

Yes, you can exchange your points for, you know, dollars off, but there's also the value of points exchange, exclusive access and discovery of product that we provide through the program that keeps people feeling valued and excited to be with our brand.

00:24:58.430 — 00:25:07.870 · Alison
As one of your Beauty Insider loyalists. I want to compliment you, you do a really good job on the personalization and you make it fun, which this is a category that absolutely should be fun.

00:25:07.870 — 00:25:10.790 · Allison
We believe it should be fun. We agree.

00:25:11.190 — 00:25:25.470 · Alison
Now, I'm always impressed by the knowledge level and longevity of your store teams, and I know firsthand how incredibly hard that is to achieve in retail. So without giving away your secret sauce, can you share how Sephora creates such a compelling in-store experience?

00:25:25.750 — 00:26:36.070 · Allison
Well, I, I have to agree. I mean, the store experience from the very beginning has been just a core part of the DNA of the brand. This was part of breaking the mould of beauty, the experience that was created where you didn't have to kind of shop for beauty behind a glass wall or see someone behind a counter by brand.

But really, it's a place where you can come and touch and feel and play with beauty. It is this immersive beauty playground and that I think is key to Sephora's success. And then second is, the philosophy of working here at Sephora is truly one of kind of store first. And so even in the corporate office, you know, we are in service of our field teams.

They are the ones who are meeting the customer, and the client, are on the front lines, and they really are the core of the brand and they embody the brand daily. And so our philosophy at Sephora is that we make sure all of our programs and our communication and our education, which is so important to delivering the expertise, are at the centre of what we provide to our beauty advisors.

And I truly believe that's what makes the brand so strong.

00:26:36.110 — 00:26:44.440 · Alison
You were recognized as one of the "Movers and Shakers" in this year's Most Influential Brands study, gaining 18 places. So what led to that recognition?

00:26:44.480 — 00:27:43.600 · Allison
Well, I want to start by saying that we have incredible brand strength in Canada. I am coming in in the last four years and I definitely can't take all the credit for this. But I will say it was exciting to see that we made this kind of big jump last year and we really reflected on, you know, how that happened and what we did differently to get there.

And I do really attribute that to the pivot we made based on consumer behaviour. And in a market where the mindset had shifted so rapidly to buy Canadian and to having this groundswell of Canadian pride and honestly, some worry about the state of our nation, we set out to bring joy to Canadians and focus on elevating Canadian voices, creators, media and partnerships.

And these initiatives were always to tap into Canadian love and support the country. We didn't have to be Canadian in order to do that. They were big and visible ways that we put our brand in new spaces and places that we hadn't shown up before. And this strategy paid off for us in a big way.

00:27:43.720 — 00:27:54.320 · Alison
Now, many of us, certainly, in my experience, find our biggest mistakes can provide painful but often the most powerful learning. So I would love you to share a valuable lesson that you learned the hard way.

00:27:54.400 — 00:28:21.400 · Allison
I am going to say, I think one of my biggest lessons probably came from staying in my comfort zone a little bit too long. You know, I think I stayed on the agency side maybe a few too many years. You know, comfort zones can feel really good, but nothing really meaningful happens there. And, you know, growth comes from learning new things, being in new rooms, challenging yourself with new ambitions.

And so that's probably been my biggest learning along my career journey.

00:28:21.880 — 00:28:46.530 · Alison
That is great advice for everyone listening, whether their agency side, client side, like getting comfortable can, you're absolutely right, can be dangerous. Now, I'm honoured to have very senior leaders on the podcast, so I always end by asking you to share one piece of career advice for listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

So, given you've got a unique path bridging creative excellence with business results, what wisdom would you share?

00:28:47.050 — 00:29:48.290 · Allison
I think I'd have kind of two pieces of advice, probably from my own journey. And the first thing I'd say is to dream big. If you believe in something and you're willing to work for it, there's really no limit in what you can do. Don't act small because you're afraid. Make sure you think about what your ambitions really are and make them happen.

If you're really passionate about something, you will find a way to make it happen. I can't tell you how many people told me moving from the agency to the client side was never going to happen. I had head-hunters telling me that getting into lifestyle or or those categories was a pipe dream. Everyone wanted to be in them.

And I would just say, you know, that probably leads into my second piece of advice, which is bet on yourself, you know, don't let others define what you are going to do. Trust your gut and follow your passion, and make sure you truly believe in yourself and your own abilities. And that's usually going to take you to the right place.

Stop waiting for others to get you to where you want to go.

00:29:48.930 — 00:30:08.210 · Alison
I love both pieces of that advice, and for anyone listening, it's incredibly powerful. I'm going to add that for any women that are listening, it's even more powerful because we can still be guilty of not dreaming big enough and betting on ourselves. So, Allison, thank you for ending the podcast on such a inspiring note.

It's been a great conversation.

00:30:08.250 — 00:30:10.730 · Allison
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed being here.

00:30:13.810 — 00:30:26.770 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing,thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

The campaign that delivered a 20 per cent sales boost didn't start with a creative brief, it started with a casual comment. In Episode 74 of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson joins Pizza Pizza CMO Adrian Fuoco and Zulu Alpha Kilo President and CEO Mike Sutton to unpack the half-decade partnership behind "Bipartisan Wings." The collaboration drove a 40 per cent jump in wing sales, a 2025 CMA Best of the Best award and a CEO crediting marketing for brand growth on BNN Bloomberg.

00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23.840 — 00:02:32.250 · Alison
Great marketing doesn't happen in boardrooms filled with endless PowerPoints and bloated processes. It happens when brilliant clients and creative partners trust each other enough to move fast, take risks and chase cultural moments that others often miss. My guests today are a perfect example. Adrian Fuoco, Chief Marketing Officer at Pizza Pizza Limited, and Mike Sutton, President and CEO of Zulu Alpha Kilo, helped build one of Canada's most successful client agency partnerships over the last five years.

They've created campaigns like "Bipartisan Wings" and "Reverse Tariffs" that don't just win awards, they drive significant business results. Since joining as VP of Marketing in January 2020 and being promoted to CMO in June 2024, Pizza Pizza has really transformed under Adrian's leadership, from a traditional, value-focused QSR into one of Canada's most culturally relevant brands.

The results really speak for themselves. Pizza Pizza was named Strategies magazine's Brand of the Year in 2023, won two gold CMA Awards in 2023 and 2025, and their "Bipartisan Wings" campaign closed the show, winning top honours as best of the best for 2025. Most impressively, Pizza Pizza's CEO cited on BNN Bloomberg that marketing initiatives drove growth.

Words that every marketer and CMO aspires to hear. Mike Sutton has led Zulu Alpha Kilo as CEO since April 2021, steering the agency to become one of the world's most awarded independent shops. Under his leadership, the agency has expanded to Vancouver and New York, was named AD Age's A-list agency standout in March and achieved platinum status in Canada's Best Managed Companies in 2024.

Together, they've proven that when you combine strategic agility, mutual trust and a willingness to say, hey, I'm not above going to jail for this idea, you can create marketing that cuts through in one of Canada's most competitive categories. Their "Bipartisan Wings" campaign drove a 40% jump in wing sales overall and a 47% spike on election night, while the "Reverse Tariffs" campaign delivered a 20% sales boost. Welcome, Adrian and Mike, I am thrilled to have you both here to pull back the curtain on how this partnership really works.

00:02:32.290 — 00:02:33.450 · Adrian
Thanks for having us, Alison.

00:02:33.490 — 00:02:34.530 · Mike
Thanks, Alison.

00:02:34.570 — 00:02:58.610 · Alison
Adrian and Mike, I'm excited to have you here for a bunch of reasons. Getting into the significant business results you're driving is certainly high on the list. But the other part is, despite having hosted this podcast for a few years now, you're the first time that I've had a CMO and their agency CEO join me together.

We're going to start with the basics. How did this partnership begin, and what made you both believe this could be something special> Adrian, why don't you kick things off?

00:02:58.650 — 00:04:38.700 · Adrian
It was a really fun experience kicking off the partnership, and I think it was a long coming. So, you know, I'd say first, Alison, just in terms of what I thought could be special was I was excited to work on the Pizza Pizza brand. And that brand, you know, Mike and I both grew up in Ontario. 

And if you grow up here, Pizza Pizza was around your entire life, basically in one way or another. And I always got a kick out of some of the marketing that Pizza Pizza had done over the years and some of the wild sports promotions. And I remember one time where you could, you know, they would send you a VHS tape along with your pizza at Christmas time or movies and all kinds of fun stuff.

And so I was just generally excited to be able to take a look at that brand and sort of understand how had they achieved all of that. And when I got to Pizza Pizza, I realized that a lot of that had just been achieved, you know, in house with a small, scrappy group of people who had done really amazing stuff. But what intrigued me was, you know, wow, what would happen if you were able to hand, you know, partner with one of the top creative shops and strategic agencies in Canada?

Where could you take it beyond where it had already gone? So that was that was the part for me that was exciting. And then in terms of how the partnership began, it was really just a phone call. I knew Mike and Zach over the years working in the industry, but we hadn't done too much together. And so I just thought, wow, this would be really fun.

This is a top tier crew, and if they'd be at all interested in partnering with us, we could probably really do some amazing work. And also that we would probably see some great results, which of course was important as well. And we were able to achieve all of that, I must say. And here we are.

00:04:38.740 — 00:04:41.020 · Alison
So, Mike, what would you add from an agency perspective?

00:04:41.060 — 00:05:36.460 · Mike
From an agency perspective, one of the things I'd say, as I sort of reflect back on those early conversations with Adrian, was thinking about like, great partnerships are grounded in a shared ambition. And so the thing that was immediately clear is that the ambition that Adrian had, what he wanted to do with marketing, really lined up well with the type of work that we like to do.

So that was certainly business impact, but also about sort of mutual belief in the type of work that we can do together. So there was just this shared ambition from the very beginning. It isn't about one side presenting and one side approving to real shared ambition in terms of the type of work that we wanted to do together.

And I like to think of it as us being co-conspirators. Yes, it's a client agency relationship, but really we're co-conspirators in trying to do amazing work for this really iconic Canadian brand.

00:05:36.500 — 00:05:56.020 · Alison
One of the things that really struck me about your partnership is that the core team on both sides has remained intact for five years. And maybe part of that is because you are co-conspirators. But in an industry known for turnover, that really is remarkable, so I'd love to share what's contributed to that stability, and why do you think it matters for the work that you produce?

00:05:56.060 — 00:06:58.670 · Mike
Yeah. I mean, for those listening who may not know, you talk about turnover, the last stat I saw was around 25%. Like, just think about that for a minute. Where imagine a world where you have 25% of your staff turning over year over year. The last few years we've hovered around 10% ,kind of thing. So we're not up there.

But you're right, the industry has a significant amount of turnover. So what do I attribute to, like, I think clarity and candour is a big part of what works in the partnership. And then yes to consistency on the team. So we absolutely have that over the duration of the five years we've been working together.

But the other important piece is like adding fresh energy throughout the partnership as well. So to me, that's always the perfect balance, is that you want that consistent core team, but then you always want to have fresh energy coming in and bringing fresh ideas to interpret the brand platform as we have it.

And I think that's how we keep things fresh. And that's a big part of my job in making sure that the right people are coming onto the business at the right time.

00:06:59.030 — 00:07:28.910 · Alison
That's such an important balance. And if our listeners weren't enticed earlier, they're certainly going to be enticed by how to get from 25% turnover down to 10% turnover. Now, Adrian, you mentioned when you joined Pizza Pizza that there was a very well-established internal creative department handling 99% of the work, and then you brought in Zulu as an agency partner.

Now, let's be honest, that could have been a disaster. Egos clashing, turf wars, a real mess. Instead, it's become a real model of collaboration. So how did you navigate that potentially explosive situation?

00:07:28.950 — 00:09:11.880 · Adrian
Yes. Um, well, I think personally, I believe in the model where you could have both an internal group and an agency partner and that that could actually create a system versus sort of competition. And so there'd be some things that one group could do and some things the other group could do. And what I found was, you know, the internal team, yeah, someone new comes in, and you could be concerned. What are they going to do? What about my job security and all the things that we've built? And so first thing I found was just to give them confidence that, no, I think that, you know, the leadership believes in you, and the leadership thinks that what you're doing is of great value.

But let's take a look at the entire needs of the brand and let's have an honest conversation about, you know, if we were to do more brand equity building marketing, do we truly have the skill set to do that kind of stuff in-house? And the truth is that somewhat. But the team's really focused on the day to day sales, keeping the restaurants looking good, you know, getting all of the materials versioned.

And with all of that work, that's a full time job right there. There really was no need to bring in a third party to do that. So then it's like, okay, if we want to add complementary marketing into that system, let's work together, be a part of that process. I think that's another really important part, right?

If you are going to bring in a third party, an agency partner from out, and you have an internal team already in place, make sure they're part of the process. Don't kind of go off in isolation, and here you go. The third part, I would say, is just when it comes down to individuals, the people that were here were very confident and skilled and very collaborative people.

So personality-wise, I just I just could tell that was never going to be an issue for us. And then the same thing at Zulu's end, we definitely had the conversations right up front to sort of say, look, we have people here that do certain things and we think they do them really well. So I don't think there was any true territoriality.

It was understood what everybody would be doing together.

00:09:11.880 — 00:09:22.480 · Alison
And Mike, from an agency, obviously it was, you've got two creative teams, one in-house, and the Zulu team. So it's important for you to be sensitive to that as well. So how did that change your approach?

00:09:22.640 — 00:10:51.320 · Mike
The truth is, now, and even five years ago, most if not all of our clients have an in-house team. So this is the reality of business now and an important way of working. I mean, the pitfalls happen in those scenarios when you have really blurry roles, right? And, you know, Adrian mentioned competition, but I found that sometimes there can be an unspoken competition.

Again, what Adrian did a great job of right off the bat was again confidence to his team. Confidence in our team. Everything was on the table. So there wasn't any unspoken competition. The other thing that Adrian, I like, you talked about designing system versus it's like just dividing the work. Okay, you do this, you do this.

We sat down at the beginning of this year again, the team looked at the calendar designed for the year in terms of, okay, Zulu, we're pulling you in here, here, here and here at these key moments. There's a real mutual respect amongst our teams. Our creative people can talk directly. So it's not like, you know, me or one of our account directors is always in the middle.

The creative people can speak directly, which I think is really important and a signal of a great working relationship. And you know what? We share wins and we share credit. So when there is a win, we're all winning together. It's not like, oh, so-and-so did this. It's just like, it's a it's a real team win.

And actually at the CMAs. It was, that was a really special moment. You know, winning the the top prize of the night. And the full team was there to celebrate together, including Adrian's in-house team. So it does really work.

00:10:51.360 — 00:11:14.040 · Alison
It really was amazing to see everyone come up on stage. Thank you both for sharing me some really important guidelines on how to have such a successful partnership. Now, Adrian, in an earlier conversation, you made a really important point about understanding what the agency needs to succeed and not just what you need from them.

So can you talk about how thinking about their business and not just drone has shaped this partnership?

00:11:14.120 — 00:13:29.210 · Adrian
That was something that, for myself and for the team here was a priority from the beginning. I think a lot of it is that way of thinking is borne out of just experience. And you think of the great agency partnership that I've had over the years, and it was really an understanding that there's an opportunity here for mutual benefit for both organizations.

You know, just like any relationship should be that way. And then that means you have to have a little bit of empathy and understanding and sort of ask yourself, okay, well, yes, they are providing a service, but they also need to, you know, build their own brand and they need to build their own personal profiles and all of those things.

And so have some empathy and say, what are the things that are important to the agency and, and how can I help provide those things? And then in turn, if I do that, what potentially are going to be the incremental benefits for Pizza Pizza? And so obviously the agency, other than they need to make money and they need to be able to invoice and bill and do all those things, they need to raise their profile in the industry.

They need to be able to showcase to other clients that they do great work, and they need to do that great work in order to recruit the best people. And so if we can help provide them opportunities to do the kind of work that's going to achieve those goals, while at the same time building our brand and driving our sales, and that's going to be great.

And then, of course, if we're able to do that, and then you're giving the agency work that's important to them. You know, not every project is going to be super exciting. Definitely, there's projects that we're we're up on the stage and there's lots of other ones where they just drive a specific goal or, you know, there's something that we need to say.

And Zulu does a great job helping us with those too. But those sort of marquee projects, if we're able to do a few of those, I find usually the work is great and gives the brand great recognition, but also the better the work you give to the agency, the better people they put on your business. So many times when we're meeting with Mike's team, they'll say, oh, you know, we've got a new team that came on board and they're just, you know, they really want to work on Pizza Pizza. 

They're excited to come work on Pizza Pizza. And so we want that, right? We want to make sure that we're getting the best people supporting our business. So yeah just a little bit of understanding of what's what's important to everybody. And trying our best to be able to provide that.

00:13:29.250 — 00:14:03.620 · Alison
For your brand, to be the brand that everyone at the agency really wants to work on, is such a powerful position to be in, and absolutely is a great way to ensure that you're going to continue to deliver great work. Now, Mike, when we were talking, you shared a pretty legendary quote from one of the creative presentations where Adrian said, "I love this idea and I'm actually not above going to jail for this."

That's a pretty high bar for creative bravery. What creates the environment where a CMO feels empowered to say yes to such old, potentially risky ideas?

00:14:03.740 — 00:15:05.420 · Mike
When you're in a leadership role and in this case, you're in a room with your agency partner and you say something like, I mean, and let's not romanticize risk here, right? Like, I mean, obviously Pizza Pizza is a it's a big business. There, there there are risks that, you know, you want to look at. But what it says to the team of people that have the ownership and accountability for this brief that we have is it's conviction.

You've got a client that's saying you have permission to be bold, when you hear something like that and you've got a client who is going to have your back and champion ideas and get just as excited about them as you are. And so you want people knocking on the door at the agency to say, when's the next Pizza Pizza brief coming?

Can I get on that? And so I think saying, hey, look, I'm not above going to jail for this is a pretty strong signal that you've got a client who believes in the power of creativity and who has a very high bar for ideas and has the conviction to go to jail, potentially for it.

00:15:05.460 — 00:15:07.140 · Adrian
I don't. I'm terrified of jail.

00:15:07.180 — 00:15:19.820 · Mike
He's terrified of jail. So, um, anyway, that was, that is a memorable, and if there's ever a book written about the Pizza Pizza - Zulu Alpha Kilo relationship, there is going to be a chapter, I'm sure, called I'm Not Above Going to Jail.

00:15:19.940 — 00:15:22.420 · Alison
And, Adrian, we promise we're not gonna take you literally.

00:15:22.420 — 00:15:30.460 · Adrian
I'm looking out my office window here on, uh, on Kipling Avenue as we have our discussion. And I actually look straight into the jail, which is across the street.

00:15:31.260 — 00:15:33.500 · Mike
Well, the commute, the commute won't be too far then.

00:15:33.500 — 00:15:35.620 · Adrian
It's too real.

00:15:37.260 — 00:15:37.980 · Alison
Now Adrian, your brand has become known for jumping on cultural moments, "Bipartisan Wings" during the U.S. election to "Reverse Tariffs" and responding to trade tensions. You mentioned you're basically 80% planned and leave 20% flex for moments that come along. So how do you build that agility into your marketing operation?

00:15:55.940 — 00:17:30.110 · Adrian
Well, that's a real challenge for us and our partners. One thing that allowed us to get to that place was just, I guess, best laid plans or however people describe it. Even if you have the great desire to have your year 100% planned out and you're gonna stick to that strategy and stick to that plan, I mean, I can't really think of of a time where we've pulled that off.

So, you know, maybe if that's the reality, then just say, well, let's just build that into our system to say, you know what? Let's, if we could if we could achieve 80% in September of 2025, if we have a plan and come the end of the next year or the end of 2026, that we've achieved 80% of our plan, that will be a win and the other 20% will be sort of flex.

So we just said, well, if there's going to be flex, let's just, let's just plan for it. That allows you to set a little bit of money aside, set a little bit of bandwidth aside, set a little bit of hours with Zulu aside so that when those moments come up, you're not scrambling to find the resources in order to make it happen.

And, you know, I don't know if it's always been like this, but certainly the last few years, you don't have a lot of advance notice. And usually the best cultural moments just sort of land in your lap, you know, unexpectedly. So if you're going to try to react to those things authentically in a way where it almost feels planned, I think a few of the ones that we pulled off do feel planned, as opposed to pulled off over a weekend.

But again, if you kind of pre-planned not to be planned then, then it gives you a little bit of a better chance of success of actually pulling it off.

00:17:30.270 — 00:17:46.750 · Alison
And to assure there's capacity so that you can be agile when the moment arises. And then I'm sure there's an excitement of teams can really gel over what a cool opportunity and if we move quickly, we can be the first and only to seize this. I would think that that would help inspire both the brand team and the agency.

00:17:46.830 — 00:18:28.440 · Adrian
It really does. And I don't know if there's any science to this or not, but I find when you have those moments and you know, brands, we all try and jump on them. But sometimes if you're not ready to go, you know, you just it's like a post. It's like a static image that you put up on Facebook saying, hey, you know, X thing we're talking about it.

You can kind of get a sense that it's sort of a knee jerk thing. That's the last minute we're going to tape a slice of pizza to a wall to react to the banana to the wall artwork or whatever. Whereas if you are able to do some of these things the way we've done them, and you actually have enough time and resources to build what looks like a proper series of advertisement.

So it gives you an opportunity to maybe to add a little bit more polish to these moments, and that could be an edge as well.

00:18:28.720 — 00:18:46.240 · Adrian
Now, Mike, you mentioned that the reverse tariffs idea actually came from Adrian. He threw it out in one of your meetings and basically said "if Trump's doing tariffs, what if we did a reverse tariff?" So that challenges the traditional view of where ideas come from. So talk about why does it matter who has the idea and how that mindset can really shape your collaboration.

00:18:46.240 — 00:19:47.160 · Mike
So much of the work that we do, there's this constant cycle of ideas that are happening, whether they be responding to cultural moments or whatever. And so it really doesn't matter where the idea comes from. And I mean, part of the founding philosophy of our agency is that, again, we're all creative, right?

We are all creative, and the sort of universal belief in the power of creativity and what it can do, whether it's client, strategist, account person, creative team, it doesn't really matter. And so I love that story that Adrian just throws out this thought in a meeting. And then the team rallies around it.

And immediately instead of shutting things down, and, what if? Okay, let's roll with that and see where it goes. And then again, like I mentioned earlier, again being generous with credit. So I don't know, maybe some agencies would have an issue saying, well, actually the seed of that idea came from the client.

Who cares? I think that's fantastic. So I love it. Talking about speed. This was a fast one, not days. It was like an hours kind of situation, basically.

00:19:47.480 — 00:19:53.920 · Alison
I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Earnscliffe team for helping bring CMA Connect to our listeners.

00:19:56.880 — 00:20:23.120 · Alison
Earnscliffe is one of Canada's leading independent communications firms, with teams across Canada and expertise spanning public relations, public affairs, digital marketing, data and design, Earnscliffe brings together national reach, regional insight and coordinated expertise to help clients make sense of complex issues to build trust and deliver results.

To learn more about Earnscliffe team and Integrated services, visit earnscliffe.ca.

00:20:26.320 — 00:20:46.040 · Alison
Now it's clear that the creative at Pizza Pizza is really, really high and that if something isn't hitting the mark, it doesn't happen, that there's no sort of, well, we've got to get to market quickly, so 70%, it's good enough, let's go. Adrian, how do you maintain that standard when you're also getting hourly sales reports and pressure is on to drive results right now?

00:20:46.480 — 00:22:20.570 · Adrian
A big part of that is for us, there's always a baseline of activity that isn't necessarily podcast-worthy, you know, or award stage worthy that we have running constantly to support the business and those areas of marketing, whether it's through Search or whether it's other, more P Max type channels, we can flex those up and down as needed to support the day to day sales needs of the business, and we do that all the time.

So when we're talking about most of the work that we're doing with Zulu Alpha Kilo, a lot of that is brand equity building tied to a product launch, where maybe there's a little bit of flexibility if we need to move a few days here or there. It's not it's not going to be the end of the world. So in those situations, I think there's a buffer of activity that that will keep the brand moving forward.

And that gives us the opportunity to make sure that sort of the higher profile brand work is executed just the way that we want, right? And so another part of that is sometimes with something we're feeling, it's a little bit further on the edge or maybe a little bit riskier in terms of will this work and will we get it just right, the marketing department will kind of keep that project close to our hip for as long as we possibly can. 

Maybe a select group of people are aware, and that way you're just not in one of these terrible situations where you've promised this great thing to your franchisees and to the entire company, and then you have to embarrassingly go back and delay install.

So we'll, on some of those projects, we'll try to hold on to it as long as humanly possible, so that when we do tell everybody that it's coming, the timing and the execution plan is a sure thing.

00:22:20.730 — 00:22:40.050 · Alison
You get hourly sales reports delivered to your phone, so that's real-time accountability that QSR and retail have in common, but many marketers don't deal with. And in that is both a blessing and a curse. So how do you balance the gift of real time data with the danger of making reactive decisions based on one bad afternoon of sales?

00:22:40.370 — 00:22:43.090 · Adrian
Yeah, that's very difficult. One thing is you need to have the confidence of your executive peer group and the CEO and the people that are going to be making the decisions as to whether or not some sort of reaction needs to happen. So I think we're fortunate here that we have that confidence and our partners have that confidence. And so I have the aperture to sort of say, okay, well, you know, we need to be looking for patterns here as opposed to, you know, like a moment.

We're more interested in what's the trend that's happening that we can react to as opposed to what happened this afternoon. It can be really difficult. And the other thing is you have to be careful not to fluff those things off, right? So if you are having a really bad couple days or a bad week, you know, I wouldn't recommend sort of saying, ah, it's no big deal.

We'll figure it out. People don't enjoy hearing that. And so I think some of the words that you use in terms of saying, yes, we're well aware, we've had a bit of a challenging period. We do feel confident in the strategy. We are taking a look at the longer term. Do we have a potentially sustained issue or is there some sort of blip going on?

You know, take a look at the calendar, what's happening in sports, what's happening in the weather? Maybe this is something that we need to wait a little while and weather. So, some of it just is just, you know, a little bit of confidence and having the right support and just making your way through it. Of course, it does get to a point where, yeah, you may have to make a change, but I'd rather be a little bit planned out than sort of in the moment, because that can be really demoralizing for the team and our partners if you're constantly changing direction.

00:24:13.620 — 00:24:40.140 · Alison
And you make such a good point, as marketers are always aware of what customers are thinking and how they're reacting. But you have another really important audience in your franchisees who are running their own business across the province, have staves and mortgages that they're responsible for, and that's a lot of pressure.

So understanding where they're coming from and not being dismissive about what a slow day of sales actually can mean for them, is really important to building that customer relationship.

00:24:40.180 — 00:24:40.940 · Adrian
Absolutely.

00:24:40.980 — 00:24:59.420 · Alison
Now, Mike, you shared that the "Fixed Rate Pizza" actually started as a low investment social post. You saw it gaining great traction and then you invested in broadcast and above the line media. And that's often the inverse of how campaigns work. So what did that teach you about sort of testing before going big?

00:24:59.780 — 00:26:09.940 · Mike
Yeah, I mean that's going back to 2022 and consumer prices were skyrocketing. I think it was like an 8% increase year over year. And so much of that campaign was about timing. We presented this idea that was all about parodying bank advertising a bit and seeing pizza as a financial asset, which is kind of a head-turner a bit, right?

And so, again, rather than launch like a fully fleshed out integrated campaign, we launched with a social post. And again, you talked about real time data and seeing response. So obviously looking at that in sales to say, okay, we're going to have an extra large pizza with four toppings, and we're going to hold the price at $16.99.

Is that going to get traction? Is that going to break through? And what we saw through social listening, we saw it get some heat, right? People started talking about it. And then it was only months after that where Adrian said, okay, we're going to brief in a more integrated campaign here, and we're going to free up the budget to make this much bigger than the way it started.

And so starting from a position of real confidence, because we already knew that this was getting some positive reactions, positive sentiment from consumers.

00:26:10.020 — 00:26:49.470 · Mike
Just to add to that, the other part is just you talk about an understanding and a respect for the skills of your partner. And so Zulu had given us this great idea. And just like Mike said, it kind of was taking off. And then it was like, wow, like, imagine if we gave them the opportunity to fully flush out a campaign and fully flush out a 30 second brand sell for this.

And Pizza Pizza at that time hadn't done something like that in years. And so I felt very confident and obviously played out that way. We already know that people respond to the idea, and now we've got this top creative shop here who could just take it to the next level. And so that gave us confidence that, wow, there's still a lot of legs left in this thing with the right creative.

00:26:49.750 — 00:27:08.230 · Alison
Adrian, in a recent quarterly reporting call, your CEO cited marketing as a key reason you were outperforming on sales. It's quite rare when most CEOs don't publicly credit marketing in that way. So how did you build that relationship where he sees marketing as a revenue driver and not a cost centre?

00:27:08.310 — 00:27:33.070 · Adrian
Well, I think part of it is just fortunate that, you know, Paul Goddard, our CEO, is great and he loves marketing. And he, you know, he doesn't just value marketing, he gets a real kick out of it. And so that's just fun, right? Where your area is of personal interest to him. So that, coming over to Pizza Pizza I was aware of that.

And that was another thing that attracted me to coming here was just the attitude of the leadership team towards, you know, our craft.

00:27:33.230 — 00:28:10.600 · Alison
It can make such a difference just in how effective you can be and how you can build a stronger partnership knowing that if it's embedded in both culture of the brand and the business, then it's one less fight that you need to take on. Now, Adrian, you mentioned the weight of accountability, and with 700 franchise owners depending on you to drive sales, the CEO publicly crediting marketing for growth, that's wonderful in many ways and also a ton of pressure.

So how do you manage through the inevitable tough weeks when all eyes are on you? We talked a bit about that like half day sales thing, but I want to drill down a little bit more on when there really is some softness in sales. How do you react?

00:28:10.640 — 00:29:33.160 · Adrian
Go to the bathroom and cry alone. No, you know what I mean, there is a nugget there which is part of handling the pressure is how are you handling it internally, and how are you projecting out to the team and to your partners? I think that's really critical, right? You don't want the whole group living in a fool's paradise if things aren't going well.

But at the same time, you do have a responsibility to sort of, you know, steady the ship and give everybody confidence that we have a great plan and we have great initiatives underway, and we'll find our way through it. And the truth is, in QSR for an established brand, everybody, it's ups and downs, that's the nature of the business, right?

I mean, it's just, you're not going to grow every single day. So that's another part of it is just understanding that expectation, right? And sort of pushing towards the good days and staying positive in the tough ones. But it's good for the job security of the people that can handle it, because it is a really difficult task and it's not something that can be taught.

It just has to do with your attitude and of course, confidence in your strategy, right? If you feel really good, that look, we put a lot of thought into this strategy. We're well aware of what the competition is doing. We feel not just with our creative partner, a strategic partner, but of course our media partner and others that we've got people supporting the business who know what they're doing.

We're confident that we know what we're doing. So you don't want to be overconfident, but a little bit of confidence can go a long way and say, no, no, we're good. Like if after a while it's not working, then yeah, we can make some adjustments.

00:29:33.200 — 00:29:38.560 · Adrian
And Mike, from an agency partner perspective, how do you and the team step up to support in those moments?

00:29:38.760 — 00:30:24.200 · Mike
Well, I think first of all, the team understands the responsibility that, you know, Adrian and his team have. And yes, although the work we're doing is building brand equity, there's also an expectation that we're going to see the cash register respond as well. So I think that awareness within the team of what we're trying to do is important.

And then I think just responsiveness right? Adrian and the team know, like, pick up the phone, call us. Transparency. Be really communicative. Because the more we understand about what's happening, the more we're going to be able to help. And sometimes that might mean we need to move really, really quickly.

And sometimes that might mean we need to pivot and go in another direction because something's changed that we didn't know when we briefed on a project.

00:30:24.320 — 00:30:47.440 · Adrian
So, Adrian , you made a fascinating comment that many marketers say, I wish I had more influence. And I hear that every day. There is a downside to it when you have as much influence as you do. You're often in a meeting with five executive colleagues and AI comes up, changing the business comes up and all eyes focus on you to solve the problem.

So talk about how you navigate that double-edged sword.

00:30:47.640 — 00:32:12.050 · Adrian
Well yeah, it can be challenging, particularly if it's an organization where people are relying on marketing for a lot of those answers, and sometimes you don't have them ready in the moment. So I think the first thing is, if you have a really solid leadership team, you know, where you've got each other's backs.

And so where, yeah, something's coming my way, whether it's, hey, this is, what's your point of view on AI or what's your point of view on the fact that sales in this province stink? And so I think you need to be prepared for those discussions in advance. But then also you need to have people that you're with who you can say, well, you know, you know what?

I don't have all the answers right now. Let me go back and we're going to get a solid point of view. We'll come back to the team with a plan. And I think, you know, the other part of it is everybody knows that we all have a weight of responsibility to move the business forward. It's not just marketing, right? So I don't think anybody deep down truly believes that.

And so it's just making sure that, you know, you also have a culture where, yeah, it's understood that there's a shared responsibility here and everybody contributes in different ways. And so I'm not saying you want to push back and deflect and that kind of thing, but I think that just comes back again to empathy of all the different accountabilities that people have.

And maybe it could be a different conversation earlier where a different group is having a struggle, and if you are able to be supportive of them in that moment and be empathetic to the pressure that they're feeling in that moment, probably you're going to fare better when the pressures and the spotlight is on you.

00:32:12.370 — 00:32:30.890 · Alison
Well, said. And Mike, having led an agency, I also know that from your perspective, there are times like AI and others where you have a number of your clients reach out and really looking to the agency for support, which is absolutely what you want as an agency, but it puts a lot of pressure on you as well.

So I'd love to hear how you answer the question.

00:32:30.930 — 00:33:41.180 · Mike
Yeah, you know what? I, like, it kind of speaks to the importance of, again, just the marketing leadership as a profession, really. Think about the responsibility, the weight, has certainly gotten bigger and broader. Like Adrian, I think about the responsibilities on product innovation side of things, the responsibility purely on the marketing side of things.

There's the customer service piece of it. Alison, you mentioned technology, consumer trends and marketing innovation and the list goes on and on and on. And heads do turn to the marketing leader. And what an amazing privilege that is, right, for marketers to be the ones to have the responsibility to solve that.

So I love that. And I think in my role too, I have the, like the real pleasure of actually taking action against those things. And I mean, what I loved is I get to decide what I do. I don't have to call anybody and ask for permission to solve one of these things, or hey, we need to pivot and put a whole bunch more resources on a client issue because it's really, really important.

And I don't have to ask anybody for permission. We can just go ahead and do that. But all of that responsibility and the weight of it is what you do about it. You know, having a bias for action is key.

00:33:41.460 — 00:34:21.620 · Alison
That's great. And Adrian, I know you joked about going and crying in the bathroom, but it's such an important acknowledgement to say, like, as leaders, we have to put on a brave face. We have to be transparent with our teams and partners. But we also have to acknowledge there's a huge weight on our shoulders and find a time, whether it's crying in the bathroom, going for a run, however you deal with it, to acknowledge that and give yourself some grace before you then charge ahead. 

So I think it's a great important lesson that we can all take away for sure. Now, I have definitely learned some of the most powerful lessons the hard way, whether it's a mistake or just an outright failure. So before we celebrate all of your wins, I would love you each to share a misstep and what you learned from it.

00:34:21.659 — 00:36:07.630 · Adrian
I mean, fortunately, I can say this is when I was more junior, so not as big of an issue now, but sort of client side, the brand side. The biggest mistake that I ever made, or that I have very often seen others make, is not trying your best to fully understand the complete business that you're operating in. So, you know, in this case, I'm here in the restaurant business and I'm a marketer.

That's what I love to do. I love to build strategies and campaigns and ads and all that fun stuff. But the reality is, is that this this is a pizza making business. And this is a franchising business. And you know, you might be surprised. This is a construction business, this is a real estate business, this is a supply chain business.

And so all of those other things are connected to what we're doing. You know, where we choose to put a location, that's going to have an impact on marketing and how the food arrives and the products are built and shipped and all that stuff has an implication on marketing. And so if you just sort of made a decision like, no, I'm just going to I'm just going to do the ads and buy the media.

And that's my role. I just, I really feel that you're going to you're going to struggle if you don't understand the bigger picture of the business. And also you're going to not have a lot of credibility outside of the four walls of marketing, which is also a challenge. Right? You've all been in this position where you feel like you're constantly doing a pitch job internally to convince people of what you're doing.

And, you know, if you take the time to understand what other people are doing and how the how the system operates and of course, how the company makes money financially and all those critical things, you just have better credibility. First of all, you're going to have better plans. And also it's going to be easier for you to merchandise those around the company and get people on board because you're speaking from a place of authenticity and knowledge of the business.

00:36:07.910 — 00:36:32.670 · Alison
That is such important advice, and I hope everyone that's listening, regardless of what level, really takes the time to absorb that, because it can make such an incredible difference in building relationships, your credibility and your enjoyment of the job, like having that depth and understanding of the business, what your colleagues are also responsible for.

It can also lead to some really great ideas when you dig into the business and understand it.

00:36:32.710 — 00:37:38.430 · Mike
You know what, when I think about mistakes and I made this one more than once. So much of my role now is about like setting the conditions internally here at the agency, setting the conditions in our client relationships for us to do the best work that we can do. And one of the lessons I've learned more than once is waiting too long to address something that feels slightly off in a partnership.

And it's not even a scenario where like, okay, something's like really broken. It's more, again, maybe there's a little misalignment. And I've convinced myself that maybe I can manage around something, but I think those small misalignments don't stay small. They get big. I guess what I've learned is to address those things much earlier on.

Not confrontationally, but address them with a lot of clarity, a lot of empathy, just to create a better foundation for partnership. And so I think I've gotten much better at that. You know, we all have instincts, right? And I have learned to really trust my instincts. I think as my career has gone on and act on those things versus push them away and deal with them head on.

00:37:38.470 — 00:38:04.240 · Alison
That was a great follow on. And when you think about, the more you let it fester, the bigger it becomes, the harder that conversation also becomes when you need to address it. So yeah, it's super valuable learning from both of you. So now let's move to most proud moments. And I know you both have a ton of those, so this might be the hardest question I ask, but if you have to pick one of your favourite successes together and you each get to pick one, what are you most proud of and why.

00:38:04.840 — 00:39:28.080 · Adrian
It's so recent. Obviously Mike and I jumping up on stage with the team to the Best of the Best last year. We were all gushing with pride at the CMAs. I mean, that was super cool. And you know, I think a big part of that is we're a medium-sized brand, Zulu is an independent agency. And so for that, that level of recognition, especially when we talk about, you know, just sort of this conversation and where it started from small scrappy team on a great brand, kind of doing DIY, you know, full circle to you're up there on the biggest stage accepting the show closer. That to me was a great moment of pride.

And the other thing related to that is just I'm extremely proud to have personally a thumbprint on a brand. Like I feel that, you know, people, they'll say, oh, Pizza Pizza, you guys have done some great stuff and you've seen a lot of changes and this and that, and I, I feel like we're getting close to building sort of a legacy that, you know, at some point I will move on and the team will move on.

But if you're able to create like a little bit of an era for a brand, just like on a sports franchise or whatever else, that, to be a part of something like that, I'm super proud of it. I don't think I'll always have that opportunity. And we, you know, we all know marketers over the years who kind of have that moment where they're associated with a particular brand, and you get to carry that with you.

If we could have achieved that at Pizza Pizza, between my team here and the team at Zulu for this period, I think that would be really neat.

00:39:28.120 — 00:39:30.080 · Alison
Absolutely. Mike, over to you.

00:39:30.080 — 00:40:44.490 · Mike
It's tough to top this that CMA moment on stage together. And I still, I get chills just just thinking about it. I'm going to cheat, Alison, I'm going to I'm going to pick two. Um, the first proud moment I'd say, because everything that's followed started with the foundation, started with the brand platform, "Everyone Deserves Pizza." 

Before we had some incredible breakthrough creative idea, we had this amazing, solid, authentic, truthful platform called "Everyone Deserves Pizza" for the brand. And so that's a proud moment because the very first hit was "fixed rate pizza". It allowed that, and it's allowed every single thing that's happened after that.

So a lot of pride in again creating the structure and the foundation that's enabled the work. And then the other moment where I get pride is where I hear from people outside of the Zulu and Pizza Pizza teams who know about the work. Could be another client who's calling to say, hey, I've been following the the Pizza Pizza work, I've seen the business results, and I want to learn more about how you did that.

And so a lot of pride in that when there's compliments, you know, from our peer group in the work that we're doing in the success that we're having.

00:40:44.650 — 00:40:57.730 · Alison
It's amazing. The ultimate compliment, for sure. I'm really lucky to host senior leaders like you on the podcast, so I always end each episode by asking you to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:40:57.770 — 00:41:48.730 · Adrian
We talked earlier about taking risks, but no, I mean, at the end of the day to be definitely on on the brand side, like to be a great marketer, you have to do things that are memorable and really going to get people's attention, and maybe they'll laugh, or maybe they'll just sort of have a wow moment. And if you don't have any of those, I don't know how you're going to be successful.

You have to sort of be associated with interest and excitement. And so you're not going to get that playing it safe. So you are going to have to take some risks and do a few things that are a little bit outside of your comfort zone. But at the end of the day, the alternative is scarier, right? Like, if you're just invisible and you're not really known for anything and you're just kind of playing it safe, I feel that's how you kind of just float off into obscurity.

So unfortunately, the risks is the only, the true path to to success. Just got to find a way to do it that's, you know, measured and strategic.

00:41:48.770 — 00:41:59.170 · Alison
And it does get easier. As you take risks and see them paying off when they don't pay off when you pivot quickly and get the learning from it over time, you build that muscle for sure. Mike, over to you.

00:41:59.210 — 00:42:37.650 · Mike
Love that. This is going to build off of, you know, what Adrian just talked about? I'd say enthusiasm and presence early on in your career. Put your hand up. Get involved. Ask to be involved in things that are out, maybe outside of your core assignment. Attach yourself to those opportunities that are happening within your organization, whether you're a client side or whether you're in an agency.

And in order to do that, you have to be present. So really be present. Be involved. Get to know all of your colleagues and the leadership. And you do those two things, have a lot of enthusiasm and be present in your role, good things are going to follow.

00:42:38.020 — 00:43:02.980 · Alison
Terrific advice. So, Mike and Adrian, I have really enjoyed our conversation. You've both provided such rich learning for our listeners, and it's great to have both sides of the partnership represented. And I want to end by congratulating you on you're doing such terrific work together. You're driving and delivering inspiring business results, which is ultimately why we're all in the marketing profession.

And I really appreciate you taking time from very busy days to join us for CMA Connect.

00:43:03.020 — 00:43:04.300 · Adrian
Thanks so much, Alison.

00:43:04.340 — 00:43:07.020 · Mike
Absolute pleasure. Thanks, Alison. Thanks, Adrian.

00:43:07.060 — 00:43:09.180 · Adrian
Cheers. Thanks, Mike. Great seeing you both.

00:43:11.020 — 00:43:23.980 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

One in four Canadians lives in a food-insecure household -- and many have jobs, degrees and never imagined needing help. In the latest episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson sits down with Kirstin Beardsley, CEO of Food Banks Canada and Neil Hetherington, CEO of Daily Bread Food Bank, to unpack the scale of this crisis and why brands that go beyond writing a check make a meaningful difference for communities -- and their business.

CMAConnect-Ep. 73-Kirstin & Neil w promo.txt
English (UK)

00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:24.360 — 00:02:40.450 · Alison
Food insecurity in Canada has reached levels we haven't seen in modern history. Let that sink in. Right now, 1 in 4 Canadians lives in a food insecure household. That's 10 million people and includes 2.5 million children. The demand on food banks keeps climbing. March last year alone, there were nearly 2.2 million visits to food banks across the country, the highest number in our history.

Behind those statistics are real people, working Canadians who can't afford both rent and groceries. Families with university degrees who never imagined needing help. Newcomers trying to build a life here, and increasingly, people who are employed but still can't make ends meet. Today's conversation matters for all of us, but especially for marketers and brand leaders.

While this is fundamentally a crisis that demands policy solutions, brands also have a critical role to play right now, and many are stepping up in innovative and important ways. I'm joined by two leaders on the frontlines of this crisis. Kirstin Beardsley is the CEO of Food Banks Canada, the national organization representing over 5500 food banks and community agencies across Canada.

Kirstin has been with the organization since 2015, working her way from Director of Policy to Chief Network Services Officer, before taking on the CEO mantle in 2022. She holds a degree in Women's Studies from New York University, and has built her career at the intersection of policy, logistics and community impact.

Neil Hetherington is the CEO of Daily Bread Food Bank in Toronto, where 1 in 10 residents now rely on food bank support. Before joining Daily Bread, Neil led Dixon Hall and was the youngest ever CEO for Habitat for Humanity Toronto at just 25 years old. He brings a systems thinking approach to addressing food insecurity, balancing immediate relief with advocacy for long-term change.

Both organizations, I'm proud to say are CMA members, and Neil and Kirstin understand that addressing this crisis requires collaboration between government, community organizations and the private sector. Today, we're going to explore what's really happening across Canada, how our landscape is changing and how brands can make meaningful contributions writing checks and beyond.

Kirstin and Neil, thank you both so much for joining me. I know you're incredibly busy and I really appreciate you being here.

00:02:40.450 — 00:02:42.690 · Neil
Really glad to be here. 

Kirstin: Thanks for having us.

00:02:42.730 — 00:03:10.960 · Alison
So let's start by grounding our listeners in what's actually happening right now. Some of those numbers are absolutely staggering, but I think it's important that we don't let people become numb to them. So, Neil, let's start with you. In Toronto specifically, you're seeing over 4.1 million food bank visits annually, a 340% increase since 2019.

Can you help us understand what that actually looks like on the ground? And who are the people that are walking through your doors today compared to five years ago?

00:03:11.080 — 00:04:11.100 · Neil
Yeah. You know, it took 38 years for Daily Bread to to get to 1 million client visits in a single year, and then only two years to get to 2 million. One year to get to 3 million, and then another year to get to 4 million. And so we have seen this rapid growth of individuals who have to rely on food charity. So there have been those who have always been with the food bank.

Those would be people who are on income supports that are wholly inadequate. So you take somebody, for example, on disability. They receive about $1,400 per month. Nobody can survive on $1,400 a month. They have to rely on friends, family and charity. But the growth that we're seeing is primarily composed right now of individuals who have done everything right.

It's individuals between 19 and 44. 60% of them have a university or college education, and 50% of them have full time employment. So you think about that. They've gone to school, they've got a job, they're working hard, yet they have to come to a food bank. And that's primarily because of a lack of affordable housing in our city.

00:04:11.180 — 00:04:55.860 · Kirstin
Yeah. I mean, what we're seeing is, is really what Daily Bread and Neil are seeing in Toronto magnified and multiplied right across the country. We're seeing nationally the trend of working folks, folks with employment as their main source of income, as more reliant on food banks. That's not just a Toronto-based trend.

We're seeing that right across the country. But there are some places that have growth, as has Quebec, in the number of folks relying on food banks. And we're also seeing in the north. So where food insecurity has always been at crisis levels in Canada, that that is right now with the high costs, extreme costs, as well as incomes that aren't keeping pace, that more and more folks in the North are also relying on organizations like food banks to get by.

00:04:56.020 — 00:05:18.930 · Alison
So Kirstin, building on what you were saying, it's really surprising to me that 20% of your clients at food banks are employed. 57% of clients at the Daily Bread Food Bank have a university or post-secondary degree, yet they clearly still have a need. So, Neil, what is this telling us about structural economic challenges that are facing Canadians right now?

And how does your profile of clients continue to shift?

00:05:18.970 — 00:06:15.150 · Neil
It's telling us that the social contract is broken. It used to be that that you would be able to get by when all of those parameters were, were fulfilled. And that isn't the case. And here's the thing. We decided in the 90s as a country, to get out of building affordable housing. We stopped building cooperative housing.

We stopped building social housing. Yet our population was increasing and we are paying for that two generations later. And I would argue it's going to take us two generations more. Despite Build Canada homes coming about, despite $13 billion coming to affordable housing through that that excellent program, it's going to take us a while to build out of that.

So in the interim, we need to make sure that there are income supports that are appropriate for Canadians. Income supports like the Canada Disability Benefit, which came into force just this last July, where $6.1 billion is going to go to those that are the most vulnerable in our society, those that are relying on food banks all across the country.

00:06:15.310 — 00:06:26.270 · Alison
And, Kirstin, on a national level, you're seeing 34% of food bank users are newcomers to Canada who have been here for ten years or less. So what's driving that and what does it mean for how we're thinking about supporting new Canadians?

00:06:26.310 — 00:07:22.540 · Kirstin
Yeah, I think it's important to note that there isn't one single group that's driving the growth in food bank use that, as we've said, we've seen growth across the country in a number of demographics. But that said, we know that newcomers come to Canada and meet precarious situations. So those who are employed are often more likely to be in a precarious gig employment that doesn't give consistent hours. They're more likely to earn lower wages. And if they do lose their jobs, they're less likely to be eligible for the programs that we do have in place to support folks through those tough times, things like employment insurance or provincial social assistance, but because of immigration status, are less likely to be eligible for those programs.

So, as Neil was saying, what this demonstrates is just a massive gap in our social safety net. The social safety net we have is broken. And it's not ensuring that folks who are the most in need are able to get by no matter what, no matter who they are across the country.

00:07:22.660 — 00:07:44.700 · Alison
And with that being the reality today, you're both operating in environments where demand is exploding and resources simply aren't keeping pace. So over half of Canadian food banks have had to reduce services and give out less food because of the pressure, yet the demand increases. So, Neil, what does the operational reality look like when you can't meet the demand?

What impossible choices are you having to make?

00:07:45.220 — 00:08:39.440 · Neil
Well, that reality across the country is a tough one for anybody. Every single time there is a change, it means that there is one last meal provided by a food bank to that parent, to that child. And so as frustrating as that is, we're using that as our fuel to inspire us to advocate even louder.

We are discontent with the status quo, where we say enough is enough, and we need to use the stats and the numbers and the stories that we have here of family after family, tens of thousands of them on a daily basis, and use those statistics to be able to say, here are the policy alternatives that all three levels of government have failed on, and give them the alternatives to be able to start to build a more hopeful society, to build a place where everybody can thrive in community. And that flows from making sure that people have the right to housing fulfilled and their right to food fulfilled.

00:08:39.599 — 00:09:13.070 · Alison
In any CEO role, you have to make tough decisions. And that's certainly true in my role. But they pale in comparison to the decisions that the two of you are facing. Those are truly heartbreaking decisions. The fact that you're using it as fuel to get governments to engage and address the root issues, and also to get businesses and individuals to engage and help meet the need, is so important and highly commendable.

Now, Kirstin, how are you supporting local food banks that are buckling under this pressure? And what systematic changes does the network really need to support the growing demand?

00:09:13.470 — 00:11:08.640 · Kirstin 
This is one of the most heartbreaking things for me in my job is, is encountering food bankers who are having to make those decisions or are having to say, you know, we don't have as much food as we'd like to give out, or we're going to limit the number of visits that someone can make to the food bank, because we simply need to stretch the amount of food that we've got further, because more people are coming through the doors. It's incredibly hard work, and it's a much harder job than I have. I agree with you. Those are those are the toughest types of decisions. But I also agree with Neil that what we don't want to do is have to sustain this level of growth in need of food banks across Canada.

What we want to do is see fewer people rely on food banks in the future, and that's going to come with solid policy decisions at all levels of government. So at Food Banks Canada, we focus at the federal level. So we work with food banks right across Canada to share what we're hearing. I think it's really important for governments to get a sense of what's happening in the reality of food banks and the folks that we serve, and we advocate for policies like EI reform that will help a future where fewer folks will need food banks.

We also want to make sure that we're supporting the food bank system to remain strong. So we'll be here as long as people need food. The food bank system will strive to show up, as we have done for the last decades. But really it is about that government advocacy and that policy change. We're also, as I mentioned, around the North, we're continuing to ensure that we're a huge support to community led solutions in the North.

It's a difficult place to get food when you're talking about fly-in communities, and the infrastructure difficulties of building in the North are a challenge. And so how can Food Banks Canada and this network we've got across the country support our colleagues who are doing this work in even more challenging conditions. While we make sure the system is strong today, we need to look towards a future where fewer people are coming to the doors of food banks every single month.

00:11:08.880 — 00:11:51.870 · Alison
You're the first guests I've had the pleasure of hosting on the podcast, where the ultimate goal is for your organizations and your jobs to no longer be needed. So I definitely support trying to get us there as a country. So let's shift to the role of private sector and brand specifically. There are some really powerful examples of how corporate Canada is stepping up.

So Kirstin, one example is Walmart's Fight Hunger, Spark Change campaign that I believe has generated over 100 million meals since 2017 and contributed another million dollars in February 2026. Purolator delivered a record 2.8 million meals in 2025. So what makes these partnerships work, and what do you do to set them apart from companies that just write a one time cheque?

Not that there's anything against writing cheques. Money's needed too. 

00:11:51.870 — 00:13:41.970 · Kirstin
Absolutely. But, we're so grateful for partners that walk a journey with us and want to invest not only at a corporate level, but engage their employees and engage their customers to support this incredible work and critical work that food banks are doing right across the country. So with Walmart Canada, proud to say it's the 10th anniversary of the Fight Hunger Spark Change campaign in support of food banks right across the country.

And as you said, they've raised a record funds, 55 million raised and donated to support food banks across Canada. And every dollar stays local. So where the customer lives, where they want to support those funds, go to a food bank that is matched with their local Walmart. And I think that's really important for those customers to know that their impact is local.

And so the campaign invites those customers to donate in store, and that's matched. Walmart Canada is also engaged in a corporate match to make sure that they're contributing as well. And so it's a really 360 partnership because of their commitment to supporting communities across the country. Purolator is also a long standing partner to food banks right across the country.

This is their 23rd year of the Purolator Tackle Hunger campaign, which rallies, again, their employees, their partners and communities across the country to raise critical funds and foods for local food banks. And so, while we are so grateful for those partnerships, we also know the partnerships help both companies meet their ESG goals and targets as a company.

And it is, you know, it's not just the support, I always say, this work is tough on a good day. These are not good days for food banking and to know that we're not alone, to know that we have support from every sector of society, is critical in our ability to continue to do the work and meet the challenges.

00:13:42.010 — 00:14:11.360 · Alison
I know they're doing it first and foremost because they see a need and they're looking to support it. The fact that they've both been doing it for decades is wonderful to hear. It's also good business. You think about how their customers are going to perceive their businesses and brands, and how they're actively giving back where in one of the areas our country most needs it. That's very impressive. Now Neil, I know you also had the pleasure of working with great brands like Rogers, Sun Life, Shell and CIBC, and I'm sure there's a host of others. So when you think about the most effective brand partnerships, what are the characteristics that make them truly impactful?

00:14:11.360 — 00:15:13.660 · Neil
So one of the things that we have here at the Daily Bread Food Bank is the opportunity for that company to express their inward values in an outward fashion. They can come and they can sort that food, they can work alongside one another. And so, yes, their customers are going to value that organization more when they're donating to a local charity or across the country to individual food banks.

They're going to value that, but they're going to see great benefit from an HR perspective. Think about the time that you had, you know, when you maybe you started off in your first marketing role and you got to work alongside a VP and you were a coordinator, and suddenly you had this conversation and this relationship.

It's good for them as a company. And so we take that benefit and then we give them the opportunity to divest of their wealth by giving us a donation to be able to, to sort the food, put incredible music on. And, and so you're dancing alongside that VP that you otherwise wouldn't meet. And each of those companies knows that they can, uh, can dance positively into a future where everybody can thrive in the community.

00:15:13.700 — 00:15:51.570 · Alison
And when you also think about younger employees are actively choosing to work at companies that they believe in and that support values that are important to the individual. So what a wonderful way to bring that to life and attract the top talent, but also retain them too. I've been really interested in some of the innovative approaches that brands are taking to this problem.

So, for example, I know Loblaws plans to send zero food to landfills by 2030, which is quickly approaching. So, Neil, what are the biggest operational gaps where brand innovation could make a real difference? Is it cold storage capacity, transportation, specific food categories like protein? How can we help?

00:15:51.730 — 00:17:02.790 · Neil
Well, so the answer is yes. It's, you know, each of those. And that's the thing. Martin Luther King Jr had this quote that he wrote in a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama, where he said, we can all be brave because we can all serve. And I believe that to be true. Every single corporation has the opportunity to be able to take what differentiates them as a company and be able to take a portion of that and provide that to a local food bank.

So, you know, I'm standing in front of a bin of Kind Bar granola. That company has given us sort of the leftovers from, from each of the days on a regular basis, and we repackage it and it goes out as granola to, to a family. But then you think about a company like Leo Burnett, they partnered with Daily Bread.

They provided us with our new logo. And it shows, you know, forks coming together, community eating together. But if you look at it the other way, they've taken their skills and they've said it actually is for pencils marking an election ballot. So they're taking that dual mission of the food bank, which is feed the need now and let's advocate for change.

And they put it into one logo. And they're winning international awards because of that one change. So again, going back to that quote, we can all be great because we can all serve.

00:17:02.950 — 00:17:17.750 · Alison
Those are such great examples. I'm also proud that of all the examples that both of you have talked about, they're all CMA members. So that makes me very proud of the incredible community that we have. 

Alison - I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Earnscliffe team for helping bring CMA connect to our listeners.

00:17:20.670 — 00:17:46.740 · Alison
Earnscliffe is one of Canada's leading independent communications firms, with teams across Canada and expertise spanning public relations, public affairs, digital marketing, data and design, Earnscliffe brings together national reach, regional insight and coordinated expertise to help clients make sense of complex issues to build trust and deliver results.

To learn more about Earnscliffe team and integrated services visit Earnscliffe.ca.

00:17:50.540 — 00:17:54.860 · Alison
So, Kirstin, when brands come to you asking how they can help, what do you tell them?

00:17:54.900 — 00:19:02.120 · Kirstin
I think this is what Neil was saying, is that food banks across the country and at Food Banks Canada, the answer is yes. There's a number of ways that those brands can help support us. And that includes things that Neil mentioned, like the donation of food, which is critical. We rely so heavily on transportation and logistics support to make sure that food gets from coast to coast to coast.

Or offering professional services. And you mentioned Loblaw and their initiative, ESG initiative, to send zero food to landfill by 2030. That's an incredible partnership. One of the key ways that they do that is that they are matched with food banks across the country. And so when that food is edible and safe for human consumption, that is going to a food bank.

And folks like Neil's team is making sure that that food gets to the folks who are most in need right across the country. What we say when a company comes to us and wants to partner is, what are your priorities? What are you looking to achieve? Because I know that there's going to be opportunities for us as organizations to each achieve our targets, to make sure more communities are fed, to make sure less food is going to landfill by working together.

00:19:02.520 — 00:19:33.960 · Alison
So building on that cause marketing campaigns can be incredibly powerful for both raising awareness and ultimately funds. Tim Hortons' Smile Cookie campaign is a great example. I know they raised just under 20,000,000 in 2024. Local food banks are benefiting from across the country. Subway's Never Miss Lunch campaign distributed 215,000 food packs in 235 communities, so those are just two great examples.

So, Kirstin, when done well, what can these consumer facing campaigns achieve beyond fundraising, and how can they help shift public understanding of food insecurity?

00:19:34.280 — 00:20:42.330 · Kirstin 
One of the great privileges of my job is that I get to witness folks who care about each other every single day. I mean, that's what the food banks do. They bring together people who care about their neighbours. And so cause marketing campaigns are another way for folks to do that. They can give back. They can learn often a nuance about food or food insecurity or hunger or food bank use across Canada.

And they can use their dollars in a way to support the causes that they care about. We are so blessed with the partnership with Subway Canada. It's now in its eighth year of their Never Miss Lunch campaign, and as you said, that supports fresh food going to food banks right across Canada. This year we're doing 220,000 packs in every province and territory.

Those funds allow food banks to buy fresh food to deliver to kids across the country during the summer months, at a time when other meal programs might not be available, and their deep partnership and deep commitment to the cause is what allows it to be successful across the country. And people feel good about that when they go to Subway and are able to contribute.

So it's another way of making sure that people have an opportunity to give back.

00:20:42.370 — 00:20:54.650 · Alison
I know we've got a lot of marketers listening, and I'm sure there are a number of them that are thinking, I really want to pitch a cause marketing partnership to the leadership team. So what would make that pitch compelling from Food Bank's perspective?

00:20:54.810 — 00:21:30.570 · Neil
I can tell you that on a consistent basis, probably at least 100 times a year, I am speaking at different companies to let them know about the systemic causes of food insecurity and how they can be part of the solution. And then if I was that marketer, I'd walk into that leadership meeting proudly and say, listen, your money is going to something fundamentally good.

Our employees can benefit from this. The brand can be elevated by co-branding. And it is, you know, radical common sense. And then I would say to that leadership team in that boardroom, just raise your hand if we're not going to do this. And suddenly you've got a partnership happening.

00:21:30.610 — 00:21:54.120 · Alison
So beyond consumer campaigns, the employee engagement piece is a really compelling piece as well. You're seeing companies moving beyond traditional volunteering towards what you might call more competency-based partnerships. So, Neil, I know you offer formalized employee volunteer programs.

So what value does that hands-on engagement create, both for your operations, but also all of the employees that get to participate? And you've touched on this a little bit, but I know there's a lot more.

00:21:54.600 — 00:23:05.220 · Neil
Yeah, there sure is. I mean, when you think about it, they're paying us for the opportunity for us to do the work. It's like a Tom Sawyer model, and so we're incredibly grateful for that. But again, it goes to, individually, they're learning more about food insecurity. Individually, they're learning more about their team.

And then they are collectively going out for lunch or dinner following. And we make that beer taste better. You know, they will have had a great day sweating over sorting food. And then they can have a conversation about, you know, fundamentally, why is it that we are doing it? And they're doing it, I would say, because every company benefits when every Canadian can thrive in community.

You know, the head of TD Bank used to to be heavily engaged with Habitat for Humanity. And the reason he was, was because he knew his employees had to live and work in the community. It was good for business to make sure that there was decent social housing, that there was decent affordable housing. And so, uh, so this is just a vehicle for people to, to get all engaged and then hopefully make the change so that our line ups at food banks decrease.

And then Kirstin and I can go get a job in marketing somewhere.

00:23:05.580 — 00:23:14.420 · Alison
Now, Kirstin, through Food Banks Canada, you obviously can deliver this on a national level. So I'd love you to share how you're engaging partners in competency-based volunteering as well.

00:23:14.420 — 00:24:24.410 · Kirstin
We work through the network of organizations across the country, and partners provide services that benefit communities right across Canada. One of the examples I have is KPMG. Our partnership with them supports tax clinics across the country. So a lot of folks who use food banks don't necessarily file their taxes.

And so through this partnership, we're making it easier. And with a trusted relationship with the food bank, a bit less daunting for folks to file their taxes. And obviously we rely on those volunteers with some skills to be able to support this initiative right across the country. And it's really impactful for those employees to see.

In the last year, there were over 21,000 tax returns filed through that partnership with KPMG, and $113 million returned to the pockets of those most in need across the country. And so for some, that's the difference between needing a food bank and not needing a food bank. And so it's just partnerships like that, as Neil and I have been saying, there are real opportunities. Anyone who's considering a partnership, food banks have a place for you to help your organization join the cause, which is impacting millions of folks right across the country right now.

00:24:24.610 — 00:24:45.720 · Alison
So I want to get tactical for our listeners and give them as much ammunition as possible to then raise their hand and get their brands and businesses supporting your organizations. So, Kirstin, what are the best practices that you'd recommend. Are you looking for multi-year commitments versus one off donations?

Should it be aligning with core competencies? What actually can help move the needle?

00:24:45.840 — 00:26:06.180 · Kirstin
Yeah, and the answer really isn't that there's one size fits all solution. What we do and what I know food banks like Daily Bread do, is really sit down with the companies that want to support the work that we do, and we work together to identify their priorities, what they're hoping to achieve. Is it employee engagement opportunities?

Is it the ability to tell a story? Is it engaging those customers at the local setting and demonstrating their commitment to helping communities across Canada? So the first step, the real best practice is building the partnership together. Having a conversation, learning about the priorities of each organization and making sure that as we invest in that partnership together, that we both have our needs met as we go on that journey.

And that's where you see partnerships that are decades in the making, because we've invested in each other's success and each other's priorities. So unfortunately, right now food insecurity is, as you said off the top, at the highest level, food banks are struggling to meet the demand. And so we don't expect these challenges to decline anytime soon.

And so if you are thinking about it, we do as a system, whether that's at a local, provincial or a national level, need as much support as possible to join us in this cause, not only to support the folks who need food today, but to join us in advocating for future change so that fewer people need us tomorrow.

00:26:06.340 — 00:26:20.060 · Alison
So before we wrap up, I really want to make sure that we don't lose sight of the people behind all the statistics we've shared. So, Neil, can you share a story, maybe a recent interaction with a client that captures what this crisis actually means for Canadian families?

00:26:20.180 — 00:28:31.030 · Neil
A lot of those. I was here Christmas Eve, and there was a single mom who had missed the opportunity to be able to get the food for her two children, and they were in a wagon on Christmas Eve at 5:00 at night, at of food bank, and I felt a sense of hopelessness at a season of light and hope, and I was really rather discouraged.

And she had missed the time. But we were able to get the food to her and to see the elation in her eyes that she would be able to provide food for her kids that night. You know, that that was one that really resonated with me. Just like why in a country as great as ours is that mom having to spend Christmas Eve in the cold in a parking lot at Daily Bread.

And so there's that. And then I'll never forget walking in line at one of our food banks and seeing a familiar face and, uh, and, and walking over to that person, and you go through that moment where you see somebody and you're like, oh, did they see me? Should I go over? This is a really challenging time for that person to be in line at a food bank.

Should I go up and say hello? And of course, I always say hello, because they're going through that difficult time. Why would I make it more difficult by by not being friendly and saying hello to them? And I asked about their circumstances, and in their case, they were making $50,000 or so working at our national broadcaster and had two children.

And you think, why are you in a line with that? And, um, the answer, in her case, was $14,000 comes off with tax and now you're down to 36,000 a year. She was paying roughly 26,000 for rent for her one bedroom apartment. And then, you know, you have about $500 a month to feed three people. And we mentioned already that, you know, Canadians need about 300, $350 a month worth of food.

So she's underwater for her and the two children, she needs the Daily Bread food bank. We were there for her. So my point is that there are stories after stories. Behind every statistic is a face and is an individual whose right to food is not being realized. And that, again, I've said it earlier, should fuel us to be angry and then make the change we need at all three levels of government.

00:28:31.070 — 00:28:37.940 · Alison
Absolutely agree. Now Kirstin, what do you want Canadians who aren't food insecure to understand what their neighbours are going through?

 
00:28:38.020 — 00:30:18.080 · Kirstin
Yeah, and I think it's what Neil shared. We hear the numbers and are shocked by them, but those are real folks. Folks like the story Neil shared that we know who are relying on the essential services of food banks because they simply can't make ends meet. It's impossible choices when your salary just doesn't cover your rent and winter boots for your kids and food on the table, you have to turn to the food bank for help.

But I also want to share that for me, despite the numbers and despite the stories, I remain incredibly hopeful about the future that we're building, because I also get to see the tens of thousands of folks who show up every day. And I get emotional because, you know, these are challenging issues, but a lot of people don't roll up their sleeves and say, you know what?

Not on my watch. My neighbours are not going hungry today. And what's incredible about food bankers, what's incredible about the donors and the corporations and the communities that come to support us is that we roll up our sleeves where others don't. And make sure that support goes where it's needed.

So I get to see that and feel that every single day, which fuels my hope for the future. And I also want to frame the issue, and Neil said this as well, it's really important. This is about the future we're all building. You know, when people have the food that they need to thrive, whether that's through a food bank, hopefully through policy change, they don't need to access a food bank anymore.

But when they have the food they need to thrive, we all benefit as a country. So this is a cause that should matter to everyone, because we have a lot of challenges as a country that we need to solve. So we need everyone at their best. And making sure people have access to food is critical to that future.

00:30:18.240 — 00:30:26.680 · Alison
So building on that, for the marketers, brand leaders and business executives who are listening today and want to help, what's the one thing you'd ask them to do?

00:30:26.720 — 00:31:11.110 · Neil
I don't know if you remember, about ten years ago, we as Canadians got together and through CBC, we had a, who was the most monumental Canadian, the greatest Canadian. And the winner of that was Tommy Douglas, the man who brought in socialized medicine across the country. And one of his very simple quotes was, "Today is the day to build a better Canada."

And so I would say to each marketer that you have the power within you to build a better Canada, not only at the company that you are working with, not only with the customer, but with your employees. And you have the opportunity to make sure that through each of those coming together, that the people that we just talked about, the people that Kirstin supports all across the country, from coast to coast to coast, have the opportunity to have their right to food.

00:31:11.150 — 00:31:35.770 · Kirstin
I mean, there it is. I mean, I would follow up with saying the same thing, to join us. That this is a critical issue, not just for individuals, but this is a critical issue for our society, for our communities, for our country. And so we're ready to help support organizations, companies, to meet their goals as companies, and we invite you to join us on this journey towards a Canada where no one goes hungry.

00:31:36.010 — 00:31:51.050 · Alison
Now, I'm very fortunate to host senior executives like you on the podcast, so I always end each episode by asking my guest to share one piece of career advice for listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps. So what advice do you have for future CEOs who really want to make a difference?

00:31:51.290 — 00:32:18.530 · Kirstin
Sure. I mean, my advice is simple. It is the thing that sustains me, is to listen deeply, to pay attention to the folks, like a woman at Neil's food bank who was quiet and in the corner, folks whose stories don't often get heard. Pay attention to the stories that don't get told. Listen deeply and remain curious about why the world is the way it is, and you'll always find a path forward in solutions to solving wicked problems.

00:32:18.690 — 00:32:21.970 · Alison
That's great advice. Thank you. And Neil, you get the final word.

00:32:22.010 — 00:33:14.560 · Neil
I've been very fortunate to have a number of mentors in my life, and one of them was the CEO of TD Bank, Ed Clark, and he would regularly say that leaders need to always be rowing in the opposite direction of their team. That when their team is chaotic, they need to be competent. You're always kind of in that different cycle, but it's needed if you really want to move an organization forward.

Think about, you know, the chaos that we had here during the pandemic. We as a leadership team needed to be calm and when things settled out, we needed to move people along and create a little bit of chaos. And that's always resonated with me. It's resonated because it means that when you are in leadership positions that you're often in a lonely position.

And so I would encourage any of the leaders to make sure that they take care of themselves, that they make sure that they are reinvigorated to do the jobs that they need to do, which is primarily to serve their teams.

00:33:14.680 — 00:34:00.140 · Alison
That is outstanding advice from both of you. Thank you very much. I also want to thank you both for this really important conversation and the extraordinary and mission critical, important work that you and your teams are doing. It is making a difference for Canadians and your commitment to continuing to do that was evident throughout this conversation.

The scale of food insecurity in Canada right now really demands that all of us step up. Clearly governments, communities, and yes indeed, brands and marketers. So as marketers, we have the platforms, we've got the resources. We pride ourselves on creativity that can make a real difference. The question is, will we use them to benefit your organizations?

And coming out of this conversation, I strongly suspect there will be a lot of people raising their hands to do exactly that. So a huge thank you to both of you.

00:34:00.180 — 00:34:01.060 · Neil
Thanks so much.

00:34:01.060 — 00:34:01.780 · Kirstin
Thank you.

00:34:04.500 — 00:34:17.419 · Pesenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA,ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Is your CMO-CFO relationship building growth or breaking it? Host Alison Simpson is joined by Deloitte Digital's Jeff Sutton and Amanda McCusker to unpack insights from a landmark Canadian study co-authored with the Canadian Marketing Association and Financial Executives International Canada. They reveal why trust is a business outcome you can engineer rather than a personality trait, how healthy tension introduced early accelerates decisions and which of the four collaboration principles separating high-growth organizations from the rest most marketers are getting wrong.

00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:24.600 — 00:03:27.040 · Alison
The CMO and CFO relationship can be a challenging one. Marketing drives growth and takes a long term perspective. Finance protects costs and focuses more on quarterly performance. And when those two forces collide without the right process in place, tension shows up late as gatekeeping, rechecks and slower decisions.

But here's what new research revealed. The best CMO and CFO partnerships don't avoid tension. They're actually designed for it. They surface challenge early when it sharpens assumptions and accelerates decision, rather than letting it fester until it stalls execution. This matters more than ever because the structural condition shaping these relationships have fundamentally shifted.

CFOs now playing a leading role in enterprise strategy for 57% of organizations. 79% of CEOs say the CFO is the executive they listen to most. Meanwhile, 61% of marketing budgets are still set top down or based on prior spend, limiting flexibility even as expectations for proof intensify. Cost is immediate and visible.

Yet value can be delayed and challenging to quantify. And in that gap, collaboration either compounds trust or creates avoidable drag. For today's episode, I'm excited to welcome the Deloitte Canada team who led important research on this critical relationship. It's work conducted in partnership with the Canadian Marketing Association and Financial Executives International Canada.

The learning we're sharing today is Canadian focused with a global lens. So what we discussed will help our listeners understand what makes the relationship different in Canada. Jeff Sutton is Deloitte Digital's national leader for brand and growth strategy. He advises senior executives on how to unlock growth by aligning market differentiation, customer strategy and marketing execution, with a particular focus on marketing transformation and operating model effectiveness.

This work brings a global perspective on how CMOs and CFOs can better align growth ambition, investment decisions, and measurable business outcomes. Amanda McCusker is a Manager in Customer Strategy at Deloitte Digital. She comes from a strategic design background and works with senior leaders across organizations to make sense of complex, cross-functional challenges.

Amanda was the Research Lead on Deloitte's CMO and CFO collaboration and study with the CMA and FBI. She shaped the insights through a qualitative, design-led lens to surface how marketing and finance leaders align, where friction emerges, and what enables stronger partnerships in practice. Together, Jeff and Amanda led in-depth interviews in quantitative research with Canadian CMOs and CFOs to really understand not just where collaboration breaks down, but how leading   actually build it into their operating rhythms.

They found that trust isn't a personality trait, it's an operating outcome. So welcome Jeff and Amanda. I am really excited to have you here today. This is such an important topic, and I'm looking forward to diving into the insights about how we can make the CMO and CFO partnership stronger.

00:03:27.240 — 00:03:37.040 · Jeff
Well, thank you so much, Allison. We're thrilled to be here. We love the podcast. And of course, thank you for the relationship and the partnership leading up to this. So we're thrilled to share. 

Amanda: So glad to be here today.

00:03:37.080 — 00:03:44.840 · Alison
Thanks, Amanda. Thanks, Jeff. So, Jeff, let's start with why you wanted to do this research in the first place and why now was the time to do it in Canada.

00:03:45.080 — 00:05:24.430 · Jeff
Yeah. So there are many. First of all, in today's economy, it is more difficult for Canadian businesses to grow than it ever has. And so growth is a top CEO agenda for many of our clients. And then as we think about marketing, marketing should be a growth engine within the business. It should lead and be the key function in which the business looks to enable growth.

However, over a number of years, that hasn't necessarily been the case. Often the perception internally is that marketing is more of a cost centre than it is a growth engine. And in parallel, we're seeing the role of the CFO grow within the business. There now, as you mentioned, off the top, Alison, in your intro, one of the more strategic partners with the CEO and typically the right hand when it comes to business strategy.

And so as we think of the importance of Canadian businesses needing to grow now more than ever, and we know the value of marketing and what marketing can do, it's critical that marketing and finance come together to figure out how they can collaborate better together to enable growth. Another reason why we thought this was so important is often the CFO-CMO relationship is misunderstood.

We see and hear a lot of, well, we speak different language. We don't often collaborate. Well, we knew that that wasn't really the case, and we wanted to understand from organizations who are kind of leading and growing in Canadian marketplace, what are they doing differently from a CFO-CMO relationship that's enabling that growth?

And so we were thrilled to partner, of course, with the CMA and FBI Canada to talk to leading marketers and leading CFOs to better understand where this collaboration was happening, what's the mindset behind it, and what are the tactical and practical actions that other marketers and finance leaders can take to enable growth in their organization?

00:05:24.470 — 00:05:44.310 · Alison
Now, one of your core findings is that trust is a business capability, not a trait. And that really reframes trust as something that you build through operating discipline rather than interpersonal chemistry. So what did you hear in the interviews that led you to that conclusion? And what does it look like in practice when an organization treats trust as infrastructure?

00:05:44.510 — 00:06:48.620 · Jeff
Yeah, this was so key, because when you hear the word trust, naturally you think it's based on a relationship, it's based on personalities, and that's really not what it is. It's not the case. What trust is and what we found through our research is trust actually equals reliability. Trust is earned or created through the ability of these two leaders to come together and make decisions and move quickly.

And that happens over time and that happens through collaboration. It's not a you speak numbers and I speak emotion. That's not what it is. It's really about, you know, how do you create early, healthy tension when solving business problems versus showing up and collaborating late in the process, and to be turning into rechecks and slowdowns and challenging numbers versus collaborating around opportunities and challenges.

And so for us, it was definitely not personalities that lead to trust and collaboration. It's the reliability of decision-making and reliability that leads to faster, more efficient decision-making.

00:06:48.660 — 00:06:58.900 · Alison
Now, did you also find that that relationship side of it still has a role to play, especially when it's not about talking numbers or talking emotion when both groups are talking about the business?

00:06:59.100 — 00:07:31.540 · Jeff
Yes, we certainly did find there was that, but it was less about personalities. We didn't hear much, aside from when we start to collaborate early and come together around some of the research findings we have around shared language, shared metrics, shared understanding, shared education, that led to deeper trust within the functions because they are solving things together and collaborating, versus using the functions as mechanisms to check against performance, which is a very, very different way of of looking at the two relationships.

00:07:31.580 — 00:07:45.260 · Alison
Now Amanda, you quote a CFO in the research saying we hold pen on allocations, but we as an enterprise should all agree on the methodology that makes sense. Can you unpack what changes when marketing and finance agree on methodology upfront?

00:07:45.350 — 00:08:42.310 · Amanda
Whether we call it methodology or strategy or just simply a plan of action, it is really critical that leaders across functions come together to align on understanding why is the organization doing what they're doing, and how are they going to do it when it comes to solving for problems or achieving business priorities?

The outcome that we heard from doing this up front and aligning to whatever strategy you're taking, is really that you get a faster speed towards decision making, you get less rework in the end of the day. Finance doesn't need to know every single detail around execution of something like, for example, a campaign.

But they need to know why that campaign is helping to solve a business priority, and they need to have some understanding of how their investments are going to help drive shared outcomes. So aligning to that up front can really save a lot of rework at the end of the day.

00:08:42.830 — 00:09:16.640 · Alison
Now let's dig into the key insight that healthy tension between CMOs and CFOs actually leads to the best partnerships and the strongest business results. And I'd love to share how to know when the partnership is working, when it's not, and ways to improve it. So that's a big topic. So we're going to start with measurement.

Amanda, you made a distinction that I think will resonate with a lot of marketers. Dashboards provide visibility. Scorecards create shared judgement. Can you explain the difference on why visibility alone doesn't produce collaboration?

00:09:16.680 — 00:10:24.540 · Amanda
So this comes down to the question of not just, do we know what  happened, but rather can we evaluate the outcomes? Data always refers to something that happened in the past. That could be five minutes ago, it could be one year ago. But what we heard is that it's not only important to have accurate data that can be shared, it's also very important for effective collaboration to understand, how are you translating that into what was achieved, what results came from those metrics, and a plan of action to move forward with that can evolve what it is that you're working on. These scorecards as a tool, for example, what we heard is that they're not just quantitative purely, they're also qualitative. So bringing different groups to the table in order to align on what that evaluation is up front, really helps to take all the great information that you can achieve from different activity and start to bring it forward to a more future state or target state to see, how do we allocate our budget and going forward, how do we ensure that we are getting the results that we're looking for and speak to the business about what is actually being achieved overall?

00:10:24.580 — 00:10:35.060 · Alison
So building on that, what advice would you give to a CMO who's being asked to report on more and more metrics, but still finds that finance is questioning the value of the marketing investment?

00:10:35.140 — 00:12:00.250 · Jeff
We heard quite consistently, it's not quantity, it's quality. And the advice we give would be to ensure that the metrics that you are defining together are aligned to the business outcomes and are not aligned necessarily to marketing outcomes. And so it's important that marketing pushes back in a way that is coming from a place of understanding how the business makes money.

It's understanding how the business creates value, and that the metrics that are ultimately being defined are aligned to those. And we heard a really fascinating story from one of our CMOs who, when they started with the organization ten years ago, it was very much that the function was seen as an execution function, not a strategy function.

It took this individual many years, this doesn't happen overnight, to start to show up to the leadership team in those discussions, talking about the business versus talking about marketing. And so the reason I bring up that story is that it's not only metrics that will help change the perception or help the business understand that marketing is driving value.

It's also in how you show up as a leader and demonstrate that you're fully aware of how the business needs to create value, and that you're not talking metrics and marketing metrics, you're talking business and value outcomes. So it's not more metrics that are ever going to solve this challenge, multiple things that CMOs can do, but first and foremost, make sure the metrics are only talking about business outcomes, not marketing outcomes.

00:12:00.250 — 00:12:48.380 · Alison
That's great advice for anyone that's in a position where you are trying to transform the marketing function from very tactical to that strategic business driver that it is and always should be. So to find the early wins, and to really focus on speaking the language of the business and showing how you're able to advance the business goals and grow the business mission.

Now, Amanda, there's a pattern in your research that made me smile because I certainly saw it at times when I was a CMO. The whole concept of shadow finance, where marketing teams build their own models and analysis because there's no shared, trusted way to really evaluate value. One CFO told you, I see it in marketing a little bit more here.

Marketing especially seems to have a bigger group than most. So what's driving this? And when does shadow finance become a problem versus a workaround?

00:12:48.420 — 00:14:13.910 · Amanda
So shadow finance, or marketing math as it's sometimes called, is often very well-intentioned but can lead to questions such as where did these numbers come from? Which ultimately erodes trust down the line. So between marketing and finance this can actually create a lot of instability, although seems to feel like something that is going to achieve shared outcomes, it doesn't always work that way.

It happens for a lot of different reasons that we heard. But the key one is really the perception of bottlenecks or a lack of access to shared information. And so this is a way that marketers feel that they can achieve results quickly, try to answer the mail on things that they need to get done as quickly as possible. The idea of it being a problem versus a workaround is highly subjective. But the most sophisticated organizations that we talk to don't allow any numbers to actually be present in materials going out internally or externally that aren't fully certified by their finance team.

We also heard from a couple of folks that built cross-functional roles to take over from a shadow finance function into something that is in the light, a actual role that interprets between the language of finance, business and marketing as a way of taking sort of the nuggets of what is a good idea and has well-intended behaviours behind it, and making it into something that actually provides better outcomes for the business as a whole.

00:14:14.030 — 00:14:24.670 · Alison
Now, that idea of having almost like a translator between finance and marketing, when you heard CMOs and CFOs talk about it, did it tend to sit in the finance team or in the marketing team?

00:14:24.710 — 00:14:41.690 · Amanda
We often heard that they may sit under marketing, but have a dotted line to finance, so that they would be able to have insight into what meetings are taking place, what goals are coming to light, how quickly things are moving, and be able to translate the most recent information for both sides when needed.

00:14:41.850 — 00:14:50.970 · Alison
That's a great solution. Amanda, you suggest that shadow finance can become unnecessary when organizations design a fast certification pathway. So what does that look like?

00:14:50.970 — 00:15:45.740 · Amanda
So that certification pathway can look different depending on the business. But at its core are some of the pillars that we get to in the report. So things like shared truth and having shared learning. The piece around education is very important for having finance understand what is marketing trying to achieve and vice versa.

So being able to speak the language between both teams becomes paramount to actually getting that certification early enough and getting, frankly, the approvals required for budget allocations moving ahead with certain decision making. It really varies organization to organization. And so that is why the way that we structured our research is really meant to be a groundwork that is flexible to the nuances of each organization as well.

What that ends up looking like at the end of the day is going to have its own flavour, depending on the industry, depending on the dynamics between the team and where collaboration is taking place.

00:15:45.780 — 00:15:52.260 · Alison
I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Earnscliffe team for helping bring CMA connect to our listeners.

00:15:55.260 — 00:16:20.660 · Alison
Earnscliffe is one of Canada's leading independent communications firms, with teams across Canada and expertise spanning public relations, public affairs, digital marketing, data and design. Earnscliffe brings together national reach, regional insight and coordinated expertise to help clients make sense of complex issues to build trust and deliver results.

To learn more about Earnscliffe Team and Integrated services, visit earnscliffe.ca.

00:16:25.420 — 00:16:49.680 · Alison
Jeff, one of the insights that really stood out to me is early finance involvement changes the role that finance plays. To bring this to life, you shared a quote a CMO had said, "Make me your partner or I'll be your judge." I know for many CMOs who are listening, that will certainly resonate. It's a powerful framing.

So what are the practical barriers that keep CMOs from bringing finance in early, and how do the best partnerships overcome them?

00:16:50.040 — 00:18:33.580 · Jeff
Yeah, it's fundamental in various ways. And it's a great quote. What we did notice, and this was a few of the interviews we had, it wasn't so much in their experience now, but as general marketing experience through how they came up in the in the industry and what they see from others is marketers, and this is not just for marketers, other leaders do this too, but they tend to go to finance with wanting to have everything solved. Like, the decision's been made on what the product is, they've got the business defined. Amanda talked about shadow finance. You know, they don't have the data and they want to show up and say, here's the solution.

What do you think? What's the investment? Versus where we see leading organizations really start to get this right, is they bring finance in early and they start to talk about hypothesis. They start to talk to finance about, here's what we think we can do. Here's what we're trying to solve. Here's the outcomes we ultimately want to get to, here are the challenges in our way.

And they ask finance for input at that point. And then finance is now not coming in late and challenging outcomes. They're starting early and they're collaborating together and shaping it with you. And this is exactly what the quote is alluding to. It stops finance from being a judge, and it starts to allow them to become a partner shaping decisions.

It also really cuts through the important point around education. So now you're not just showing finance a solution, you're educating finance in a unique way by asking them to be a collaborator, to help them understand, you know, whether it's a campaign or whether it's a martech investment, how this is going to ultimately solve a business decision and drive an outcome, versus just getting them to validate or sense-check an investment. And that that creates shared learning, which is critically important in the CFO-CMO collaboration as well.

00:18:33.620 — 00:19:04.940 · Alison
It's such a powerful way to also create shared ownership. So when questions come up at the executive suite, it's not just the CMO defending it in that dynamic. It should also be the CFO feeling equal obligation to support and defend. Now in your research scenarios, you describe moments like the martech investment that can sound like overhead or the multi-year brand commitment.

I know our listeners would benefit from learning more about how they can position important investments like these successfully. So can you walk us through one of these scenarios and show what early involvement actually looks like?

00:19:04.980 — 00:20:45.010 · Jeff
Yeah. Instead of showing up and saying, here's a tool that we need to invest in to drive X outcome, what the finance leader hears is this is overhead versus what happens when leading organizations get this right, and CFO-CMO collaborate on a solution early for martech as an example. It's more about the conversation is, what will this solution, or a technology solution, not naming it at the time, but how will that help us make decisions faster? And what are the outcomes that ultimately the business will achieve? And so finance is not looking at a tool and a number associated with the tools and investment, you're talking to them about business problems and business solutions.

And this is the early involvement that's so critical, especially when we think of, the CFO needs to bring this investment ultimately to the CEO to make a decision. So when the CFO is involved early and understanding what the problems of the business we're solving. and what we're going to enable around faster decision-making and more valuable outcomes, they're more confident in presenting that solution to the CEO, not on a sticker price for a tool investment.

But here's how marketing is going to enable us to be a more efficient, more effective business and a tool that we believe is going to be the right investment for us to achieve that outcome. And now you're enabling the CFO to defend marketing, if you will, or show up as a collaborator for marketing to the ultimate decision maker who needs to say yes or no to to this investment. So that changes the relationship completely and changes the outcome for marketing ultimately, on what they're trying to get to, which is a tool that's going to allow them to help the organization grow, and it's going to allow them to make decisions faster and be more an effective, efficient function within the organization.

00:20:45.050 — 00:20:54.770 · Alison
Now, Jeff, the research found that long term marketing value is widely believed by both CMOs and CFOs. And for all the marketers listening, that is great news that they do see the blue for sure. The challenge is it's structurally difficult to govern. And one CFO told you, not all business cases will have a financial return. And marketing often has been a very strategic component. So how do leading organizations govern that long horizon invest without defaulting to short term metrics?

00:21:14.210 — 00:22:52.560 · Jeff
The CFOs we talked to do understand and see tremendous value in brand. So that was really a validating insight that we heard through our conversations. And exactly to your question, the challenge is not so much value, but how do we measure that? Because the brand KPIs don't traditionally fall within KPIs the business typically can understand and quantify. Bottom of the funnel performance marketing certainly does.

It's a dollar in. It's a dollar out. It's pretty easy to quantify and measure the outcomes. Top of the funnel, brand investment, sponsorships, etc., it's more difficult for sure. So what we have heard and what we've seen is it's not about tracking performance in a single moment. It's about collaborating with your CFO to define ways to track it and manage it over a longer term investment.

And so what we've seen is they come together and they collaborate around not necessarily maybe a defined KPI, but they look at what are some of the signals we can identify that can show proof of performance over time. And then how do we establish a governance system where we are coming together and tracking this and monitoring this together over a set amount of time to look at our performance?

And then what are the signals to show us if it's not working? How can we identify what might need to change, what might not need to change. But it's not a single moment KPI performance-led. It's a long term business outcome. And these are not necessarily KPIs are defining their signals within the business that we can attach brand to a business outcome that can show that there's performance increase or decrease that's ultimately going to change our strategy moving forward.

00:22:52.600 — 00:23:18.770 · Alison
From a marketing perspective, I think we've done a bit of a disservice to our profession by ever coining the phrase performance marketing, because the reality is every marketing we do, including brand marketing, is all about growing the business and driving business performance. So I would love to be able to retire the term performance marketing.

Let's go on with marketing because it is all in the best interests in the service of building the business, delivering on the mission for the organization.

00:23:18.810 — 00:23:38.850 · Jeff
Yeah, I echo that, Alison. I do think the analogy of top of the funnel, bottom of the funnel, it's all one funnel, right? We're all helping the organization move their customer from, you know, awareness through to purchase intent. And that's through the funnel. And if we can just look at it that way and not allocate performance marketing to it, I think that's a much easier way to understand it.

00:23:38.890 — 00:23:53.010 · Alison
There's so much great Canadian and global research that absolutely demonstrates this. So Amanda, what did you hear from CMOs about the asymmetry between the speed of cost relief and the slow compounding cost of lost demand and rebuilding brand equity?

00:23:53.050 — 00:24:48.870 · Amanda
So I don't think this should come as too much of a surprise in what we heard from CMOs. And it is just that if you do not invest in your brand today, it may be 3 to 5 years from now that you start to really feel that impact. And that's a hard item to try and sell internally without having that shared language and shared understanding of exactly why this matters.

I think even more interestingly, the CFOs that we talk to who speak a bit of marketing language had a lot of engaging perspectives on why brand matters for their business and that they were coming to the table with the ability to understand why the investment needs to be made consistently over time, rather than being on the chopping block or up for grabs when times get really tough.

And so we heard from both CMOs and CFOs that investing in this over time leads to better results for the business overall.

00:24:48.910 — 00:25:38.760 · Jeff
If I could add, Alison, I think another thing we heard that was critical was institutional memory. So what happens is, the business sometimes forgets the trade offs it made in the past. And to Amanda's point, the 3 to 5 year time horizon to make up that investment. And then economics change, market activity changes and they go back to, it's easy to as we mentioned, cut costs and they forget what they just went through, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten years ago or whatever the time was. So the organizations that that do get it right and the ones we talked to, they mentioned institutional memory as a really critical function for them to be able to learn from their mistakes in the past and, and then manage a process to, of course, help with the trade off that need to happen. But they reduce the impact of those so they're not being impacted by it on the back end.

00:25:39.120 — 00:26:01.080 · Alison
Now, I have no doubt we have got a lot of listeners who are really interested in strengthening their partnership with the CFO and the finance team, so let's make this super-practical. If the CMO is listening to this conversation and thinking, I want to build healthier tension with my CFO, what's one thing that they can do next week to start shifting the dynamic?

Jeff, why don't you kick us off?

00:26:01.440 — 00:26:47.730 · Jeff
Yeah, this this comes back to a bit of the theme we've been talking about. This is early involvement. And I think, you know, critical. It's sitting down together. And before the next investment in defining, you know, what are the business outcomes, what's the value we can define now that's going to make this investment worthwhile for our business.

And these are simple conversations. They're not complex. It's questions like, you know why will this matter? You know, CFO how will you measure this? What does good look like? Very simple conversations that we would all ask ourselves for various reasons. Ask that together. Have that conversation together. That will quickly move from the CFO or the CMO having to defend this decision at the end to collaborating around a decision early.

It will lead to better outcomes.

00:26:47.770 — 00:26:49.010 · Alison
And Amanda, what would you add?

00:26:49.050 — 00:27:47.670 · Amanda
I would add the simplest thing to do is to be very curious and be curious about what your counterpart and their team is trying to achieve, and don't make any assumptions that they understand what it is that you do fundamentally. Because these functional roles come with a lot of depth of expertise. They come with different backgrounds, different education pathways often, and we really have to reinforce collaboration through being open, curious and not making these assumptions.

And so coming to the table with kind of sort of cheat sheets in terms of understanding, here's what we're actually trying to do. When we say this, this is what we mean. And making sure that that kind of playbook is happening early and upfront, that you're getting the shared language built early on so that as it comes time to make these very important decisions that are sometimes really speedy, you're not running into those negative friction points that you can encounter.

00:27:48.030 — 00:28:02.870 · Alison
The research outlines four different collaboration principles, including shared truth, shared language, shared learning and shared ownership. So which one do you think marketers are under investing in most, and what's the cost of that gap?

00:28:02.950 — 00:28:45.200 · Jeff
Shared language is so important Often CFOs and CMOs use the same words, but they mean different things. Terms like ROI, value, payback. Even something like investment, it might mean something different to a CMO in his or her context than a CFO. If you can start early and just align on the definition of shared language, that's going to save so much time debating, it's going to allow you to just move quickly to decision-making.

So if I could pick one, it's very easy. It sounds simple, but no one invests in, what do you really mean by ROI in this context? Have those conversations, define those early. You'll move so much faster on collaboration and decision making.

00:28:45.240 — 00:28:49.960 · Alison
And the clarity that that ensures is mission critical. Now, Amanda, how would you answer the question?

00:28:50.000 — 00:29:42.730 · Amanda
I won't double down on shared language, although I really do believe in its value as well. I think shared learning is how you can really start to achieve a lot more for your own role and for your team. And we heard from one CMO that they do sort of Marketing 101 sessions. So very basic shared learning that they carry with them.

Nothing super in-depth, just very brief. How do we get people up to speed on what we're trying to do here? And I think that kind of investment really does go a long way. And in totality, all four pillars really act together to build that better system. And again, it's not about doing it perfectly right, but really getting started and starting to build that infrastructure for your team in the way that that works for the business that you're in.

00:29:42.730 — 00:29:52.210 · Alison
So given everything that you've both learned through the research, if you could give Canadian marketers one principle to govern their relationship with finance, what would it be?

00:29:52.250 — 00:30:28.110 · Jeff
One? That's a tricky question. How do you pick just one Alison? There's so much rich insight in that report, so hopefully everyone gets a chance to read it. There's plenty of good advice in there. It's going to go back to the theme. I think it's aligning on value upfront so you can make decisions together and not have to defend them later.

I think that's pretty critical. Don't wait till the end of the process, similar to the martech example we talked about. Don't show up and ask for an investment in a tool. Align on value upfront, collaborate on outcomes and challenges, and that will ultimately create a different relationship and different set of shared outcomes.

00:30:28.150 — 00:30:29.190 · Alison
Great advice. Amanda, what's yours?

00:30:29.190 — 00:30:43.790 · Amanda
So I'm going to echo a lot of what Jeff said and reinforce that being empathetic to your colleagues at the end of the day does more to support the infrastructure for what you're trying to achieve together than almost anything else.

00:30:43.870 — 00:30:59.390 · Alison
Thank you both. Now, I'm very lucky to have amazing guests like you on each of the CMA connect podcast episodes, so I always end by asking our guests to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps. So, Amanda, why don't you kick us off?

00:30:59.390 — 00:31:31.520 · Amanda
So my best piece of career advice is, it is never too late to learn something new. And I think especially in the very disruptive age that we're living in, because there's a lot of changes in process and tools and technology, it is important to keep in mind that you are never too old or too late-stage in your own career to learn something new, to pivot into something that interests you, and to keep that openness for yourself alive and well.

00:31:31.880 — 00:31:33.680 · Alison
And Jeff, what's your career advice?

00:31:33.720 — 00:31:59.980 · Speaker 3
Find great partners. Amanda's been a great one. Alison, CMA, you guys have been great ones. So find great partners. You'll get much further together than on your own. And then maybe it's two Alison, you asked for one. The other one, I'd say is tied to this research piece. As a marketer, it's critically important to understand how the business creates value and makes money.

So you stop showing up as a marketer and you start showing up as a business leader. I think that's critically important.

00:32:00.020 — 00:32:25.500 · Alison
So great advice from both of you. And I really want to thank you for your partnership on the research and for really helping give marketers a practical roadmap to turn tension into trust. And for all of our listeners, the full research paper is available on the CMA website, and I really encourage you to read the collaboration scenarios.

They're so helpful and really recognizing key moments where partnership can either accelerate or stall. So Amanda, Jeff, many, many thanks for a great conversation.

00:32:25.500 — 00:32:26.500 · Amanda
Thank you Alison.

00:32:26.500 — 00:32:27.540 · Jeff
Thank you Alison.

00:32:30.140 — 00:32:43.020 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

How do you win gold in Canada's top marketing competition in 24 hours? Host Alison Simpson gets the story behind the win from Joanne Chen and Lydia Yoon, Google product marketing managers and Canada's 2026 Young Lions Marketing gold winners. Their winning idea – Google Maps Earth Mode – turns everyday walks into donations for the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada and now it's taking them to the Cannes Lions world stage.

00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:24.040 — 00:03:43.430 · Alison
The best ideas in marketing don't always come from the most experienced people in the room. Sometimes they come from two sharp, curious young marketers with 24 hours, a blank page and the creative conviction to trust a truly elegant idea. Before I introduce today's guests, I want to take a moment to talk about the competition that brought them to this microphone, because it's one that I am genuinely proud the CMA is part of.

The Young Lions competition is run by The Globe and Mail as the Canadian chapter of the global Cannes Lions program, which is the most prestigious creative competition in the world. The Canadian competition runs across seven categories including marketing, media, PR, digital, design, print and film.

Teams are given just 24 to 48 hours to develop a full campaign concept for a real charity client. There's no safety net, there's no extended timelines, just raw creative thinking under real and incredible pressure. The CMA is really proud to be a sponsor of the Young Lions Canada, because this program does something that we care deeply about.

It creates a meaningful, high stakes stage for the next generation of Canadian marketing talent to prove what they're capable of. The Globe and Mail has built something genuinely special here, and we are really happy to support it. This year's Marketers Category Challenge asked teams to build a campaign that would drive awareness and action for the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada and specifically support their new Hike for Hope, which is a national fundraising initiative.

The jury, which was co-chaired by CMA Board Directors Susan Irving of Kruger Products and Eva Salem of the Canadian Tire Corporation, included leaders from Sleep Country Canada, Scotiabank, Ipsos Canada, and Air Canada, all CMA member organizations. And the team that took the gold, well, they're today's guests.

Joanne Chen and Lydia Yoon are product marketing managers at Google, and in just 24 hours, they created Google Maps Earth Mode. It's a concept that reimagined one of the world's most used products to become a bridge between the digital and physical worlds, and to do so in service of the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada's Hike for Hope initiative.

Their idea was rooted in a really powerful human insight, which is often referred to as the connection paradox. While Gen Z is the most connected generation in history, they've never been more disconnected from the physical world that they care so deeply about protecting. So Earth Mode proposed a new Google Maps layer that reveals local biodiversity and nature-first routes that are hidden in plain sight, where every step taken can earn Hope Kilometres with Google Maps, then donating to the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada for every milestone reached. It's the kind of idea that makes a judging panel stop, listen, and be inspired. And that's exactly what it did.

Joanne and Lydia walked away with a Canadian gold, and now they're heading to the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity to represent Canada on the world stage. I am genuinely thrilled to have both of them here with us today. This conversation is for every marketer, wherever you are in your career, who really wants to understand what creative excellence looks like when the clock is ticking.

So a huge welcome to Joanne and Lydia. 

Lydia - Thank you. We're excited to be here. 

Alison - Now before we get into the campaign itself, I want to start at the beginning. Your decision to enter. So, Lydia, why did you and Joanne sign up for Young Lions? I'd love to hear what drew you to it. 

00:03:43.430 — 00:04:51.280 · Lydia
So I actually did a lot of case competitions back in undergrad, and when I started working, I missed doing them. At the same time, I also learned about the Cannes Festival of Creativity and wanted to figure out a way that I could go. And that's how I discovered the Young Lions competition. So while I was researching, I heard about this competition.

I thought it was the perfect opportunity to not only get back into case comps, but also hopefully win a trip to the festival. So I looked into it, and then what I realized was that you actually submit in pairs, and that's a unique part of the competition, it's not a solo activity. And they call it Young Lions, because you have to be under the age of 30 in order to compete.

So one day I was in the office and I bumped into Joanne and I asked if she was under 30.

Joanne - And I was!

Lydia - So yeah, we decided to give it a shot together. We were drawn to it, mainly because it was a way for us to challenge ourselves outside of work and push ourselves beyond our comfort zone, really test our creativity, our teamwork, our critical thinking.

And I think what finally convinced her to join was that we also agreed to run our first half marathon together. So shortly after the competition, we did that too.

00:04:51.960 — 00:05:06.610 · Alison
So, Lydia, you're clearly very persuasive and joining a great opportunity and really identifying a great opportunity when one's presented to you. Now, were the two of you working together at Google, or did you know each other beforehand or was it a random spontaneous meeting?

00:05:06.650 — 00:05:25.170 · Joanne
We don't work directly together, but we had seen each other in the hallway and at the water coolers. I think this opportunity really brought us closer, not only as co-workers but also as friends. It was cool to work on a Google project outside of work, and I think that, yeah, just really pushed our creative boundaries and and tested us there.

00:05:25.250 — 00:05:34.850 · Alison
Well it's amazing. So now that you've lived through the whole experience, there is a pressure of the submission, getting up and presenting, the win. Would you recommend it to other young marketers and why?

00:05:34.890 — 00:06:12.500 · Lydia
I would say 100%. My only caveat is that the more work and effort you're willing to put into this competition, the more that you'll get out of it. And that's something Joanna and I witnessed firsthand. It's an incredible opportunity where you get to meet great people, make industry connections. It's a good practice of working under pressure and ultimately really broadens your marketing skill set.

I actually competed two years ago with a different partner. We didn't place gold, but even throughout that process still learned a lot. And that motivated me to want to try again this year. And yeah, for us this year, the cherry on top was being able to now represent Canada in Cannes, so I would definitely recommend it to everyone.

00:06:12.620 — 00:06:51.420 · Alison
That is a very big cherry on top. Your lesson that the more you put into it, the more you get out of it is certainly true of the Young Lions competition, but it's a great work and life lesson to learn at this stage in your life. The more you put into, whether it's training for a half marathon or the career that you're investing in, the effort will definitely be returned in spades.

So kudos to you both for recognizing that. So let's talk about the competition format itself because it really is intense. You've got 24 hours, a charity brief, a complete campaign to develop. So Joanne, take us back to the start. What did that first hour actually look like and what did the two of you do first?

00:06:51.660 — 00:07:17.030 · Joanne
We were really ntentional about not rushing into an idea that first came to us. What we did was we read the brief and we parted ways for a bit. We wanted to form our own unfiltered thoughts so we didn't groupthink into the first idea that came to us. We did our own research and try to look at the problems from all different angles.

And by the time that we finally sat down together to align on what the key ask was and what the problem was, the first hour, it was over.

00:07:17.030 — 00:07:23.590 · Alison
So when you came back together, did your ideas build off of each other? Had you come up with similar ideas? I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

00:07:23.630 — 00:07:50.910 · Joanne
We came back with different ideas on what products we should use, but I think we understood the key ask pretty similarly. We built on each other on a few topics. I think we saw problems from different angles in which I think for like some of the main insights that we had, there are parts that we had missed from each other, and I think we were able to build on top of each other's ideas.

And together we kind of filtered out our thoughts for what made sense versus not and pressure tested.

00:07:51.080 — 00:08:07.600 · Alison
Now, the insight that's at the heart of Earth Mode is the tension between Gen Z being hyper hyper connected digitally while becoming increasingly disconnected from the natural world. That is really the emotional engine of the whole campaign. So, Joanne, where did that come from? 

00:08:07.600 — 00:08:35.560 · Joanne
So we are both guilty of being too connected to the digital world ourselves. Personally, my average screen time per day is about eight hours, which I'm not super proud of. Um, but since we are the target audience, we just reflected and asked what's stopped us from doing more. We spent time thinking about what was a personal truth for the both of us, and realized it was actually a shared truth for a lot of the people in our generation.

Once we found that emotional tension, it became the anchor for everything we built.

00:08:35.680 — 00:08:42.120 · Alison
And Lydia, once you had the insight pinned down, how quickly did Google Maps emerge as the right canvas? 

00:08:42.120 — 00:09:31.850 · Lydia
I would say a bit quicker than we expected, honestly. Um, as Joanne mentioned, we came back with a few different product ideas, but once we were aligned on the ask and the insight together, we realized that there were two key factors that we should look at when thinking of a product connection. So firstly, something that would drive awareness.

A product that has ubiquitous reach and daily usage, as well as a product that would drive action. So something that would actually connect with Gen Z and the environment in the mission of JGIC. And then from there we thought Google Maps fit the build. We thought it felt the most natural. We were both really excited about it.

And I think ultimately it was hard to know if it's the one, especially in those 24 hours. It's really easy to second guess, but especially since we only had 24 hours, the time constraint really allowed us to stick with our gut and just run with Google Maps.

00:09:31.850 — 00:09:40.610 · Alison
Now, sometimes the simplest ideas are often the hardest to find, and you were doing that under such compressed timelines. So how did you know that this was the one?

00:09:40.610 — 00:10:05.500 · Lydia
I think, representing a global and larger company like Google that has several brands, you are faced with the paradox of choice. But I think when the both of us, like, thought of Google Maps started ideating a bit, we both just felt like it was right in our gut. And again, due to the limited time, we just kind of went with it and believed in ourselves and all the prep that we had done to date.

00:10:05.620 — 00:10:29.540 · Alison
Now I want to dig into the creative decision-making for a moment, because Earth Mode is really brilliantly restrained. You didn't try to build something entirely new. You took a product that is already in hundreds of millions of pockets and then changed the lens. So, Lydia, how did you resist the temptation to overcomplicate it in a 24 hour competition where you're trying to impress a jury, there must have been a pull towards doing even more.

00:10:30.180 — 00:11:18.630 · Lydia
For sure. It was actually super-complicated. During our ideation we had so many ideas for different features, different naming conventions, how to gamify it, etc. but when we zoomed out and we tried to summarize our idea in one sentence, it was harder than we thought and we realized we couldn't. So that's when we knew we had to make it simpler. And something we often hear leaders at work say is that it takes longer to write a shorter email.

It takes longer to make something more concise and simple and clear. So we kind of approached the case with a similar mindset. And then in the end, once we got to that realization, eventually we landed on a simple enough one-liner summary, which was our idea being that "Earth Mode is a new Google Maps feature to help Gen Z discover the world beyond their screen", and we were happy with that.

00:11:18.670 — 00:12:02.840 · Alison
It is such a great and smart discipline to take the time to say, can we summarize this in one sentence that makes sense? And to your point and to your manager's point, it is a really hard discipline to do, so it's such a good quality check of how good the idea is and whether you need to continue refining, refining, refining.

So kudos to you for being smart enough to take that into a pressure cooker of an assignment. Now, the campaign hinges on a partnership between Google Maps and the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada. Two very different organizations with very different audiences. So getting that kind of pairing to feel authentic rather than opportunistic is one of the hardest things to pull off in marketing.

Joanne, how did you think about that connection?

00:12:02.880 — 00:12:33.360 · Joanne
We focused on a very simple synergy between the two brands. Google Maps help people navigate the world, and the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada helps them protect it. It felt real to us because it wasn't all about making just an ad. We were adding a layer of purpose to a tool that we use every single day. We decided to use the screen that everyone uses every day as a bridge to nature, rather than a barrier.

So by meeting people where they are, we could realistically guide them to where they need to be.

00:12:33.480 — 00:12:36.840 · Alison
And what made you confident that this would feel genuine to consumers?

00:12:36.880 — 00:12:58.730 · Joanne
We had to be realistic and we kept having to check ourselves. We asked ourselves if this was something that we would do on a Saturday morning, because if we didn't believe in it ourselves, then we knew our peers wouldn't either, given that we knew we were the target audience. So we focused on the small and tangible actions and focused on building habit rather than just a one and done big campaign.

00:12:58.810 — 00:13:16.810 · Alison
So let's fast forward and talk about the moment that you actually had to stand up and present. You've got ten senior industry leaders in front of you, including co-chairs from the CMA Board and jurors from some of Canada's most respected organizations. So, Joanne, take us into that room. What did it feel like in the seconds before you started?

00:13:16.850 — 00:13:49.940 · Joanne
We'd be lying if we said we weren't nervous. We were really, really nervous. We were even practising in the bathroom and trying to keep it down. But the second we stepped into the room, all that nervousness turned into excitement. I remember the big smiles on the jury's faces, and it made us feel comfortable right away.

And as crazy as it sounds, since we prepped so hard, it really became just muscle memory once we started. I just tried to keep reminding myself to have fun with it, soak in the moment and really enjoy every second of it.

00:13:49.980 — 00:13:55.980 · Alison
Such great advice. So looking back, what do you think was the single thing that truly connected you with that panel?

00:13:56.180 — 00:14:20.140 · Joanne
We think that it worked because even though the insight was specific to Gen Z, it was a truth that everyone is living with right now. We're all feeling the same pressure of being glued to our screens regardless of our age. It didn't feel like a niche problem. It was something that everyone in the room could see themselves in.

We just leaned into a reality that almost everyone is experiencing this in the digital world.

00:14:20.180 — 00:14:38.140 · Alison
Now, one of the things that I find most fascinating about this competition is what it can reveal about a marketer's instincts after you've stripped away all the usual safety nets - the long briefings, the approval processes, the opportunity for rounds of revisions. So, Lydia, what did 24 hours teach you about yourself as a marketer?

00:14:38.180 — 00:15:34.510 · Lydia
I would say two things. Firstly, even with time constraints, just the importance of taking breaks and resting. So for us, in those 24 hours, we tried to go for walks. We tried to step away from the screen. We even spent time to actually eat meals and also sleep a solid eight hours at night to review it again in the morning with fresh minds before we did our final submission.

And I think the limit for pushing yourself creatively doesn't exist if you can take those proper breaks. And that was one main thing we learned. And then secondly, I think it also just taught us that we can do hard things. Um, Joanne and I were actually both travelling when we heard we made the top five, so we worked on our deck in the middle of the night on our trip, and then also on the plane back, and I think that was something that we really put our mind to because we cared and wanted to prove to ourselves that we could do it.

And in the end, it paid off. And yeah, we're proud of ourselves for proving to ourselves that we could do that.

00:15:34.990 — 00:15:43.720 · Alison
That's going to be such relevant experience for when you're in Cannes. Throw in a 12 hour time zone that and ended up with gold in Canada, so that bodes well.

00:15:44.560 — 00:15:45.640 · Lydia
Even with jet lag.

00:15:45.680 — 00:15:46.960 · Joanne
Always on the go.

00:15:47.200 — 00:15:52.280 · Alison
So, Joanne, did anything surprise you about how you work or what you're capable under that kind of pressure?

00:15:52.480 — 00:16:31.120 · Joanne
Yeah. So to be honest, I was terrified about the presentation part. It was one of the main reasons why I almost didn't want to sign up for Young Lions. I have never considered myself a natural public speaker, so I had a lot of imposter syndrome going into the competition. I was really worried that I would freeze up or lose my train of thought in front of the jury, but I surprised myself because the second we started, the adrenaline just took over.

It gave me a chance to really practice that set of skills in a high stakes environment, and I walked away feeling really proud of how we handled all the pressure and work, and very happy with how we've ended it.

00:16:31.120 — 00:16:47.210 · Alison
So now you're heading to Cannes, which is a genuinely remarkable opportunity. You're representing Canada on the international stage at the world's most prestigious creative festival. So, Joanne, what does that actually mean to you personally? And honestly, is it more exciting or more terrifying right now?

00:16:47.250 — 00:17:17.970 · Joanne
First of all, it's a massive honour to represent Canada on that stage. But personally, I think the best part is I get to do it with my best friend. Oh, since we're still so early on in our career, we're just ready to absorb everything. We want to see the best work in the world and meet as many creative minds as we can.

The goal is to get inspired to do bigger and better things when we come back. And to answer your question, it's definitely more exciting than terrifying and I would recommend everyone to give it a shot.

00:17:18.010 — 00:17:20.850 · Alison
And Lydia, how are you feeling going into it? 

00:17:20.890 — 00:17:33.970 · Lydia
Oh, I echo all those sentiments. Very excited. We extended our trip in Europe, so we're excited for that too. Hopefully after the competition's over, we can relax on a beach with some rosé and and reminisce on everything.

00:17:34.770 — 00:17:39.540 · Alison
I'm so glad that you're extending your time. Are you going to stay in the south of France or where are you going to head to?

00:17:39.580 — 00:17:46.500 · Lydia
Mainly explore the south of France. We'll pop around some other European cities as well, before we come back to Toronto. 

00:17:46.500 — 00:17:58.420 · Alison
That's great. So I also want to use this moment to address something directly, because I think it really matters to the senior marketers that are listening today. Lydia, what's one myth about Gen Z talent that you'd love to bust for the leaders in our industry?

00:17:58.460 — 00:18:44.390 · Lydia
So as to Gen Z, I think a myth is that Gen Z uses AI and tech as a shortcut for creativity, leading to a loss of original thought. And I want to debunk this because I think being a digitally native generation actually is our creative advantage. We're exposed to all this emerging media and subcultures that allow us to bring fresh perspectives that other generations may miss.

And I wouldn't say that we're replacing creativity with AI, but instead we're using the AI to buy back the time needed for tasks that require that human touch, like empathy and cultural storytelling. And I would say we aren't actually letting AI be creative for us, but instead using it to get more time so that we can be creative ourselves.

00:18:44.830 — 00:19:07.830 · Alison
As a terrific myth to bust. So thank you. Now, selfishly, I want to ask this one because at the CMA, it is something that we think about constantly. We are super proud to sponsor the Young Lions Canada program alongside The Globe and Mail, and we really care deeply about how the industry is developing the next wave of marketing leaders.

So having just lived through this experience yourselves, Joanne, what was the most valuable part of it for you?

00:19:07.870 — 00:19:29.510 · Joanne
For me, it was definitely the people. It was a cool opportunity to meet marketers and marketing leaders from all around the country, and now we get to do it globally. The competition pushes you to think outside the box without the usual limits we might have in our day jobs. It's also an incredible way to push our brains and see what we can do under that pressure.

00:19:29.510 — 00:19:40.520 · Alison
So as you look ahead, what can organizations like the CMA, The Globe and Mail, or companies like Google do even more of to genuinely support emerging marketing talent? Lydia, why don't you take the lead on this?

00:19:40.520 — 00:20:16.320 · Lydia
I would say we definitely felt supported throughout the entire experience. So kudos to you and thank you to the CMA and all the other organizations for that. A few other ideas, I think in general, creating more opportunities, like the Young Lions competition for us to build connections and relationships with the marketing community is always super valuable.

Whether that be through events or conferences, competitions, mentorship programs specifically targeted to emerging talent. In general, for us, just being able to learn from other marketers in the industry and also those who have more years of wisdom than us, is what we find most supportive and helpful.

00:20:16.320 — 00:20:51.770 · Alison
So I end every episode by asking my guests to share one piece of career advice for the listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps. So you're both relatively early in on what I can already tell are going to be absolutely outstanding careers. You've also just done something that most marketers don't get the chance to do.

You've built something bold, under pressure, and had it recognized as the best in Canada. So for the marketers listening right now, maybe they're sitting in a meeting, a bit hesitant to share their crazy idea, or wondering if they're ready to put themselves out there the way that you both did. What's the one thing you'd say to them?

Lydia, let's start with you.

00:20:52.930 — 00:21:14.730 · Lydia
I would say, ask yourself two things. Firstly, what is the worst that could happen? It's probably not as bad as you think. And then secondly, ask yourself, what's the best that could happen? Maybe they'll end up running with your idea, or you'll get some helpful feedback that you didn't think of. Or in our case, like in Young Lions, you could win a free trip to Cannes and represent the whole country globally.

00:21:14.770 — 00:21:18.890 · Alison
I love those questions. Joanne, I'd love to hear your take too. 

00:21:18.890 — 00:21:34.860 · Joanne
I would say do it and have fun with it. I've spoken to some young marketers and they were thinking about it but just always hesitated. But there's literally nothing that you can lose and you will be surprised by yourself and all the great ideas that will come to you when you're under that type of pressure.

00:21:35.020 — 00:21:59.420 · Alison
Lydia and Joanne, I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know you and learning from you in this podcast. I am thrilled to have you both on a plane to Cannes representing Canada, and I wish you the very best of luck. Have a great time. It's going to be intense, but it's going to be absolutely remarkable. And just the friendships and the experience that you're about to enjoy is going to be one for the memory books for sure.

So a huge thank you.

00:21:59.620 — 00:22:01.700 · Joanne
Oh, thank you for taking the time.

00:22:02.100 — 00:22:04.020 · Lydia
Thank you so much, Alison. This was fun.

00:22:06.620 — 00:22:19.500 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

How do you build a career that spans CPG giants, Crown corporations, fashion retail and one of Canada's largest grocery empires? In this episode, host and former CMA President and CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Sandra Sanderson, CMO of Empire Company Limited and 2025 CMA Lifetime Achievement Award recipient. Sandra unpacks the career pivots, leadership lessons and the principle she calls confident humility that have defined one of Canadian marketing's most remarkable careers.

00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly-retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

 00:00:24.200 — 00:02:58.890 · Alison
A successful career in marketing requires embracing change, agility and reinvention. However, the most successful marketers go beyond this and really recognize emerging patterns, often before others even see them coming. My guest today is a terrific example. Sandra Sanderson has built her career on a deep understanding of consumers, very strong business acumen, strategic thinking and perhaps most importantly, the courage to act quickly and take measured risks. As the very deserving 2025 recipient of the Canadian Marketing Association's Lifetime Achievement Award, Sandra's career really demonstrates how marketing can transform organizations, and how measured risks can really open up amazing new career opportunities.  Early in her career, Sandra recognized the power that was shifting from CPG to retail and made quite an unconventional pivot to Canada Post, using it as a strategic investment to learn retail fundamentals through their retail network of 6000 post offices and B2B partnerships with major retailers.

This is just one great example of many that led to tremendous success for the brands that Sandra has led. From starting her career with Procter and Gamble to transformational leadership roles at Shoppers Drug Mart, Walmart Canada, White House Black Market, which is a leading U.S. fashion retailer, and now the Empire Company Limited, Sandra has consistently led marketing that creates competitive advantage and delivers significant business results. Sandra joined Empire in November of 2018 as their Senior Vice President of marketing, and was promoted to Chief Marketing Officer in July of 2023. Empire is the second largest grocery retailer in Canada, with brands like Sobeys, Safeway, IGA, Thrifty Foods, Foodland and Fresh Co.

In her time with Empire, Sandra has orchestrated complex transformations, including relaunching their long-standing approach to loyalty. She received the CMA's Marketer of the Year award in 2020. She has been recognized as Strategy's Marketer of the year twice, and most recently, Sandra was honoured with the Retail Council of Canada's Grand Prix Lifetime Achievement Award this year.

Sandra has also been great about giving back to our profession. She served on the CMA Board for four years, including as Vice Chair, and Sandra currently serves as a Board Director for Special Olympics Canada and Scene Plus. Perhaps most remarkably, despite an enviable career track record of success, Sandra really does embody confident humility, leading change and reinvention across diverse industries while nurturing and building many future CMOs and a well-deserved legion of fans. Welcome, Sandra, I am really looking forward to our conversation today.

00:02:58.970 — 00:03:03.690 · Sandra
Thank you so much, Alison. It's great to be here with you on CMA connect.

00:03:03.930 — 00:03:28.210 · Alison
Sandra, congratulations again on your CMA Lifetime Achievement Award. And you knew very early in life that marketing was a career for you. In fact, you wrote about the ambition in your high school yearbook. That's pretty rare in our profession. So to say that you achieved your goal is definitely an understatement, as your many amazing contributions and awards really demonstrate.

But what was it that attracted you at such a young age to marketing?

00:03:28.250 — 00:04:24.140 · Sandra
Well, thinking back to high school, it's a bit surreal to think that early ambition has turned into a decades-long career journey. What drew me to marketing was a unique intersection of art and science. I was intrigued by the idea of using data to decode human behaviour and using creativity to build emotional connections, and that curiosity led me to business school.

Once I started taking marketing courses at Ivey, there was no turning back. I knew that's what I wanted to pursue, and after graduating, I was fortunate enough to land a role at Procter and Gamble. I started out as at brand assistant on Ivory, along with 26 other new graduates. P&G was a very big on-campus recruiter that year, and it was great to be able to work on such an iconic brand right out of the gate.

Looking back, that high school ambition really did set the stage for everything that followed.

00:04:24.220 — 00:04:34.660 · Alison
Now, you have recently announced your retirement for the summer, so you've definitely been in marketing for a few decades. What has kept you so engaged in our profession throughout your career?

00:04:34.900 — 00:06:12.740 · Sandra
I think what has kept me engaged for so many years is that marketing as a profession keeps evolving. It's in a constant state of reinvention, which has given me a never ending stream of challenges and opportunities to learn and grow. I've always been drawn to business transformations, but the most significant one by far has been my journey with Empire.

My role today has fundamentally changed from what it was when I first joined the company, which was in 2018. I was actually working in the U.S. when I got a call about Empire, and at the time the company was in deep crisis. The Safeway acquisition had not gone as planned. The company had lost $4 billion in market cap, and investor confidence was at an all time low.

Michael Medline had been hired the previous year as President and CEO, coming from Canadian Tire to lead this massive transformation of the business. And so I was intrigued. I flew to Toronto to have lunch with Michael, and at that lunch he was very transparent. He shared with me all the challenges on the business and the changes that would be required in marketing to achieve his vision, and he didn't sugarcoat a thing.

And so at the end of the meal, I remember he looked at me and he said, you're either going to be very energized by a challenge this big, or you're going to walk away and we won't see each other again. Well, Alison, I didn't walk away. I was all in because it was clear that marketing would have an instrumental role to play in the transformation, and I was genuinely excited.

00:06:13.300 — 00:06:34.300 · Alison
I love Michael's candour with you in the interview process. He clearly understood how important it was for the CMO, choosing to step into the role to really understand the unvarnished reality. His partner needed to be energized by the rare career opportunity to help lead a massive transformation. And you clearly were.

So I'd love you to share some highlights of the transformation and what's kept you engaged.

00:06:34.620 — 00:09:04.230 · Sandra
Looking back, what has kept me so deeply engaged is the sheer scale of the marketing transformation within a broader business transformation. We moved from having separate Quebec and English Canada marketing teams started to a unified national organization. That gave us the scale we needed to stand up a Centre of excellence in marketing, technology and digital, which modernized our entire marketing engine. A big turning point was the transformation of our loyalty program. For over 20 years we had been part of a coalition program, so the stakes were really high when we decided to pivot, and I had the privilege of serving as the executive lead on the loyalty transformation.

We made a bold decision to become the co-owners of Scene Plus, together with two other iconic Canadian companies, Scotiabank and Cineplex. And today, we scale that program from 10 million to over 15 million members. And the level of personalization we can offer today is just light years ahead of where we were.

And, you know, the Scene First party data also became the bedrock for another venture, which was Empire Media Plus, our new retail media business. It's an example of how transforming one part of the business creates the fuel for the next. And it was super exciting to have the opportunity to launch a new media start-up within a $32 billion grocery retailer.

It's a completely different business model, and honestly, I have learned so much over the past year, which has been energizing. We also launched an in-house agency called Atelier, and having that creative engine embedded directly in our business and our culture allows us to move at the speed of the market. 

In retail today, as you know, there's simply no room to stand still. And lastly, within all of these changes, there's one that's particularly rewarding for me personally, and that's the reinvention of our community investment strategy. We shifted from having over 200 fragmented partnerships where our impact was diffused to one focused national strategy, where we could truly make an impact.

And since making that pivot, we've been able to raise and donate more than $130 million for our communities. It's a powerful reminder that at the end of the day, we're not just selling groceries. We're serving a greater purpose. And because of all of these opportunities to learn and grow, it's not at all difficult to remain engaged, and energized every single day.

00:09:04.350 — 00:10:00.080 · Alison
That is a very impressive transformation. And you've accomplished an incredible amount in seven and a half years. I also love that Michael was completely transparent in that lunch conversation, because he was absolutely right that this was going to be a role that the right candidate saw as a once in a lifetime opportunity to come in, make big bets, have marketing at the centre of leading much needed change, or it was going to scare the bejesus out of them and they were going to be like politely thanking for the lunch and going on their merry way.

So kudos to him for recognizing that. And kudos for you for raising your hand for a challenge and most importantly, clearly delivering on it too. In talking about how much transformation you've led, it also highlights just how much the role of marketing is evolving, certainly from when we were both in high school and thinking you were thinking about it as a career.

So if you were in high school today, do you think marketing would still be your dream career?

00:10:00.360 — 00:10:34.200 · Sandra
It's an interesting question. I'd say yes, absolutely. In fact, I think I'd be even more excited today because back then, marketing was largely about brand-building. And today our profession has become so much more complex and multidimensional. The dream hasn't changed for me, but the job would be so much bigger and more impactful than I had anticipated.

So if I was writing in my yearbook today, I'd still say marketing, but I'd do it knowing I was signing up for a career of constant change and transformation. And it's exactly why I would choose it all over again.

00:10:34.240 — 00:10:44.320 · Alison
So building on that, what are the two or three skills that have made you so successful and would make that high school student today who is aspiring to follow in your footsteps successful as well?

00:10:44.440 — 00:11:37.060 · Sandra
I've been fortunate to join several iconic organizations and brands with deep legacies at exactly the moment they hit a critical crossroads. So being in those pivot moments has really forced me to sharpen two specific skills. The first one is taking on the role of a change agent, and the second is having a growth mindset.

Throughout my career, I've been asked to lead initiatives where I had zero previous experience, whether that was launching a B2B loyalty program at Canada Post or launching a marketing technology team at Shoppers Drug Mart, or even recently, you know, building a national sports sponsorship portfolio at Empire.

These opportunities forced me to embrace the idea that my abilities are not fixed. There are muscles that can get stronger if I make the effort to learn, and that has served me well in a profession where there is so much change.

00:11:37.380 — 00:11:58.000 · Alison
So building on how quickly our profession is changing and if anything, it's only getting faster, that means embracing change and being open to a less traditional career path can be very important to success and longevity, and you very much embody this. So what is the most unconventional career pivot you've made so far, and what did it teach you?

00:11:58.200 — 00:15:10.400 · Sandra
Well, I had spent the first 12 years of my career in consumer packaged goods, starting at P&G, then Kraft, and eventually becoming Vice President of Marketing for Minute Maid at Coca-Cola. And I knew how incredibly fortunate I was to hold a senior leadership role at such an iconic global brand. But I craved a new challenge.

I wanted to be in retail, but pivoting to retail was not easy. It turns out retail companies weren't exactly lining up to hire a Vice President of Marketing with zero retail experience. And Alison, I spent months trying to land a job with no success. And at the time it was incredibly discouraging. But I kept at it.

And eventually a recruiter called and he said, Sandra, I have an amazing retail opportunity for you. It's a Canadian company with thousands of retail outlets. And I was like, I can't figure out which retailer has thousands of stores across Canada. Well, the mystery retailer turned out to be Canada Post, and they did, in fact, have the largest retail network in Canada at the time with over 6000 post offices.

And it was not quite the retail opportunity I had in mind. But I didn't have other options and I was intrigued. The role was for General Manager of Marketing, and it would report to an executive from Pepsi and I thought, hey, we'll speak the same language. The role included areas of marketing I knew very well, but it also threw me into entirely new territory.

Leading a retail marketing team, running their e-commerce site, and driving B2B marketing. And I decided to take the leap. And I can tell you plenty of people, including my colleagues, my friends, thought I had lost my mind. They said, you're giving up a VP role at a global powerhouse like Coca-Cola to go to work for a Crown corporation. To the outside world it didn't make any sense, but I trusted my gut, and that decision turned out to be transformative. It felt like I was getting a masterclass in retail, and I had the opportunity to co-lead the creation of an award winning flagship post office. I collaborated with retailers like Amazon and Indigo and others, and I learned how to lead an e-commerce team.

I launched a small business loyalty program, and so taking that seemingly off course detour turned out to be exactly the springboard I needed. It gave me the foundational experience to eventually land a job as Chief Marketing Officer at Danier, where I learned all about speciality retail. I was then hired as Senior Vice President of Marketing at Shoppers Drug Mart, then Chief Marketing Officer at Walmart, and ultimately led me to my role today.

My advice to others is this - don't assume your career has to be a straight ladder. The most rewarding paths rarely are. Don't be afraid of making a detour, sometimes taking a step sideways, or maybe making a move that other people think is crazy. It may be exactly the experience that you need to grow.

00:15:10.960 — 00:15:19.040 · Alison
That's such a great example. Also, kudos to the recruiter who knew his prospect well enough to know how to pitch it and pitch it in a very compelling way.

00:15:19.080 — 00:15:19.840 · Sandra
He certainly did.

00:15:19.840 — 00:15:43.380 · Alison
It takes a lot of courage to, like, go against what people that you respect, whether your friends, people you're working with, people in your professional network, if they're all saying, what are you thinking? And to be true to yourself and really trust that gut. That takes courage. Now with any change brings challenges.

So when you did make the move to retail, What challenges did you experience working in such a new industry?

00:15:43.500 — 00:17:22.839 · Sandra
Alison. Moving from CPG to retail was a huge culture shock. I quickly realized why companies hesitate to hire senior marketers without retail experience. It was a completely different beast. If CPG is a marathon, retail's a series of high stakes sprints that's happening simultaneously and sometimes the track is on fire.

A big lesson for me was agility over perfection. In the CPG world, we were strategic, deliberate, meticulous. In retail, perfection is often the enemy of progress. If you wait for the perfect data set, the season is over and you're sitting on millions of dollars in unsold inventory. I had to learn very quickly to make decisions with incomplete information.

I remember a Monday morning meeting where weekend sales had slumped. Our CEO looked across the table and said to me, we need an incremental promotion live by Friday. Well, coming from CPG or we plan for months and years, I was like a deer in headlights. I had no idea how to move that fast. Fortunately, my team was great.

They knew the ropes and eventually I did learn to be more nimble. And it was great for me that I started my retail chapter at Danier Leather, which was a smaller business with a tight knit executive team. It allowed me to see the full picture from supply chain to the storefront, and it gave me a holistic view that's often hard to get at in a very large business enterprise.

And so that was great. Eventually I figured it out and I found out that I love the fast pace and the complexity of retail.

00:17:23.160 — 00:17:47.250 · Alison
Now, there is such an adrenaline piece to it and just the momentum behind it. I love it as well. So your career definitely demonstrates quite a remarkable ability to recognize patterns that others often miss. And seeing how the Canadian CPG industry was evolving when you were at Coke is one great example of many. 

What signals were you seeing that made you realize the power was shifting and inspired your move?

00:17:47.450 — 00:18:44.590 · Sandra 
Back when I was VP of Minute Maid at Coke, manufacturers told the stories. We built the brands, the retailers provided the shelf space. But I started to notice some shifts that were reported. I saw retailers becoming so much more sophisticated. Brands in their own right. Their private label wasn't just generic.

They were becoming genuine competitors with real customer equity. And I realized that while we in CPG knew who bought our brand, the retailers knew what else was in that basket. They had that direct relationship with a human being behind the transaction. I could see that whoever owned the data and the last mile was eventually going to hold the cards, and we saw consumers becoming more demanding and retailers were in the best position to react to that in real time.

And I wanted to beware. The actual moment of truth happened between the customer and the shelf.

00:18:44.710 — 00:18:54.470 · Alison
So what advice do you have to help our listeners recognize shifting market dynamics so that they also know when to pivot, both for their businesses but also for their careers?

00:18:54.550 — 00:19:57.480 · Sandra
Well, it's incredibly easy to become insular in your own industry, but the biggest shifts usually start as whispers and not shouts. And to hear them, it's helpful to look outside your industry. For a number of years, as you know, I was on the CMA Board and something that I found so helpful was working with leaders across diverse sectors that provided insights that brought me important perspectives that I would never have found on my own.

And so that was great. I would also say watch the friction. Power almost always shifts to whoever is removing friction for the consumer. Think about Ubers versus taxis or Airbnbs versus hotels. If you see another player solving a problem more elegantly, then your company is, that's something to look into.

And perhaps even more importantly, don't wait for 100% certainty. Don't wait for the perfect data to prove the market is shifting, because by then you're already behind. There needs to be a willingness to start moving even without full data.

00:19:57.840 — 00:20:11.400 · Alison
Getting to market is such an important and increasingly competitive advantage as well. So great advice. Now looking ahead, what trends are you tracking now that are shaping your strategic thinking about the future of marketing? Just a simple little question for you to answer.

00:20:11.960 — 00:21:41.440 · Sandra
Well, I'll try to keep it simple. And when I look at the horizon, I see the marketers' role shifting from being creators of content to being orchestrators of intelligence. And there's a few key shifts that are shaping my thinking. We're moving towards a world where marketing isn't just hyper-personalized, it's anticipatory.

It's the ability to use data to anticipate a customer's need before they even articulate it. Allowing for every digital touchpoint to be uniquely generated in real time, to be relevant to that specific person. I think the real challenge for marketers now is mastering that high tech efficiency without losing the soul of the brand, and there's such a fascinating tension right now between the explosion of AI and a growing hunger for the human dimension.

We're entering into an era where technology can definitely handle the scale, but humans have to provide the heart. And if a brand loses its authenticity in pursuit of automation, that's a big risk. And at Empire, we're predominantly a full service retailer, right? At like Sobeys and Safeway and Foodland, we have service counters and it's one of our strengths.

And at those counters, we offer the expertise of a master butcher or a baker who knows your name. And that local expertise provides a level of trust that no algorithm can replicate. The shift here is using digital innovation to protect it, enhance those human moments and not to automate them away.

00:21:41.480 — 00:22:01.360 · Alison
It's very wise counsel, and it's also a great way that you're continue to be part of your communities across Canada with every store that you're in. Now, I've personally learned some of the most impactful lessons the hard way. Definitely through mistakes, failure. So before we talk about some of your many successes, I would love you to share a mistake and a lesson that you learned the hard way.

Wow!

00:22:01.360 — 00:25:09.770 · Sandra
I made a rather big mistake when I was promoted from manager to director, and it almost cost me my job. I had spent almost six years at P&G, and then I took a role at Kraft as Senior Product Manager on salad dressings. After just a year in the role, I was surprised to be offered a promotion to Marketing Director for the enhanced risk category, and I knew I had performed well as a Senior Product Manager, but I wasn't sure if I was ready for the next big leap, because with that promotion, I had to go from managing just one category to leading a portfolio of five categories, and I was responsible for a much larger team.

It was pretty daunting. At the time, I was the youngest Marketing Director in the company, and I felt a lot of pressure to prove myself. But instead of stepping up to the challenge and seizing the opportunity to grow, I made the mistake of falling back on my strengths as a Product Manager, sticking to what had made me successful in the past.

I just kept operating like I was still a senior product manager, except on five categories, and I was micromanaging my team to the ground. My VP at the time saw this train wreck coming and he tried to help me, but I was stubborn and frankly, uncoachable. I think I was just scared to leave what had made me successful.

And I'll never forget the turning point. We were actually at a marketing offsite, I think it was at Hockley Valley, and I remember my VP asked me to step out to have a chat with him in the lobby lounge and he was very direct, he said. Sandra, I promoted you because I believe in you, but you can't be a director if you don't learn how to step back and delegate.

You're drowning in the details. And then he said, I'm going to take a gamble. I'm working on a restructuring of the marketing team, and I plan to expand your portfolio from 5 to 10 brands. He said, I'm going to try to make it impossible for you to keep managing the way that you have been. So you're either going to rise to the challenge and become a leader, or you're going to fail.

It's up to you. So it was sink or swim. And when the restructuring announcement came out, I actually had colleagues come up to me and say, that's crazy. You're not going to be able to manage ten brands. Well, their doubt turned into my fuel and I was determined to prove them wrong. And I realized I had to either delegate or I was going to drown.

So overnight I had to transform my leadership style. And I was forced to trust and empower my team. And I had to let go. And the moment I did, everything did change. I focused on becoming a coach versus a doer. I stepped back, I let them shine. And you know, it took some time, but I ultimately discovered a new sense of fulfilment in watching my team succeed. 

And I realized that true leadership isn't about doing everything. It's about creating an environment where people can thrive and grow. I was fortunate that my VP saw my potential, but more importantly, he pushed me off the dock so I could finally learn to swim.

00:25:09.930 — 00:25:39.860 · Alison
That's a great example. And you're absolutely right. You're fortunate to have the right VP who took a bet on you and continued to take a bet on you and put you in a situation where you had to let go of your old way of working. But there's also the fact that you were scared of taking on five new brands, very reasonably, and then that doubled. And how did your team, because sometimes when people are micromanaged, you teach them to work a certain way too. And now suddenly they're not being micromanaged. So how did your team around you perform?

00:25:39.900 — 00:25:47.620 · Sandra
They flourished. They thrived. I don't think I was going to have the success if I had not changed.

00:25:47.700 — 00:25:58.580 · Alison
It would have been hard to learn at a director level. But thank God you learned that because that absolutely gave you the foundation you needed to step into bigger roles and to have the success that you've enjoyed since.

00:25:59.100 — 00:26:00.180 · Sandra
That was the turning point.

00:26:00.220 — 00:26:10.540 · Alison
Now, we often talk about the standard path to success involving a mentor who opens doors, and your VP, in some ways was certainly an example of that. What's your experience been like with mentorship?

00:26:10.660 — 00:28:03.530 · Sandra
Well, when we hear the word mentorship, we usually picture that traditional model like the one I was just describing, right? A senior executive pulling a junior person under their wing. And I was so fortunate to have had several of them. But there was also a different type of mentorship that has profoundly shaped my career, and that's a peer mentorship.

Years ago, I was nominated to participate in a women's leadership program at the Rotman School of Management. It's called the Judy Project. You might have heard of it. It's an intensive one week immersion for women in senior roles, and at the end of that week, they place us into what they call personal advisory groups - small circles, 8 to 10 women.

And the core idea was to give us a personal board of directors. It was designed to be highly confidential, completely safe space made up of smart women from entirely different industries. And the goal was to have a sounding board where we could bring our most difficult leadership challenges and get objective, unfiltered advice from people who have no political stake in the outcome.

That was over 20 years ago, and seven of the original nine women my group are still together and we're still meeting, although less regularly now than the monthly meetings we had in the past. And over the last two decades we have been through thick and thin. We've navigated career setbacks, relocations, promotions, health challenges and all the beautiful, messy realities of raising families while building demanding careers.

They know my blind spots. They challenge my thinking, and they're not afraid of hurting my feelings to save my career. So when people ask me about finding a mentor, my biggest piece of advice is this - don't only look up the corporate ladder, also look across the table, find your peers, build your own advisory council and surround yourself with a circle of trusted peers who understand your ambition and have your back.

00:28:03.730 — 00:28:09.770 · Alison
That is such a spectacular example. I'm also a Judy Project graduate.

00:28:09.810 — 00:28:10.530 · Sandra
I thought so! Wasn't it great?

00:28:10.570 — 00:28:31.350 · Alison
It was a phenomenal week, but they hadn't put the advisory board into place yet, so I wish I'd been a later year. But the fact that you have stayed in touch and they continue to advise you, and you're advising and supporting their careers three decades later. I can only imagine the friendships and how each of you have flourished as a result of having that advisory council and resource to leverage.

00:28:31.390 — 00:28:32.910 · Sandra
It's been very rewarding.

00:28:33.190 — 00:28:42.950 · Alison
Now you have an incredible amount to be proud of. So this next question might actually be the hardest one to ask. Of all of your successes, which one are you most proud of and why?

00:28:43.310 — 00:31:00.140 · Sandra
I feel the most proud when I achieve something that requires a lot of dedication, something that really challenges me and scares me. And this is true both in my personal life and my professional life. So can I share one for each? 

Alison:
I would love that. 

Sandra: 
The personal one is something that I know you can relate to, Alison. For years I was a runner. I ran five km every morning. Predictable, easy. And honestly, it was in my comfort zone. And if you'd asked me back then, could I run a marathon? I would have said like, absolutely not. But that changed when a friend of mine, someone who wasn't even a runner, decided to train for a marathon.

So watching her resolve inspired me to sign up for a marathon as well. And I started small. I went from 5 to 7 km, then nine and 11. I spent months training - hot, humid days, cold rainy days, and I just kept pushing those physical limits. And as I did so, I realized I was actually building mental confidence. And when race day came, my mantra was pain is temporary, pride is forever.

And I felt such a sense of pride when I crossed that finish line. And it wasn't just about the 42.2km, it was proof to myself that I could do something that I had thought impossible in the past. Now, I don't know if I'm going to go and do 65 marathons like you have, Alison, but that for me was a proud moment. And then on the professional front, the toughest challenge and one that I'm most proud of, is the transformation of our loyalty program.

As I mentioned before, we had been part of a coalition program for over 20 years, and there was a lot of different opinions at the time on what our course of action should be. We had many options, which we evaluated, but in the end we decided to become the co-owner of Scene Plus along with Scotia and Cineplex, and to launch it across our 1200 stores from coast to coast.

Scene Plus was at the time the biggest, most complex and most cross-functional high stakes project at the company. And one of the most rewarding parts of the experience was a collaboration across my entire marketing team, and across all different functions in the company. I feel such a sense of pride about what we've been able to accomplish together.

00:31:00.180 — 00:32:09.120 · Alison
Those are both big bets, and I love the fact that, thank you for sharing personal and professional, because there's such an interconnection between how we spend our personal time, what personal goals we set for ourselves, and the mental connection and the way that that can really empower our professional lives as well.

That's certainly been my experience, and with running, you take on a big, hairy, audacious goal that you didn't think you could do. You achieve it. And it opens up possibilities not just in your personal life, but in what you think you can accomplish in your professional life. And then to have the equivalent of that professionally being taking what was an incredibly massive debt and taking an ownership stake in Scene Plus and fundamentally evolving that program, as well as Empire and Sobeys approach to loyalty is such a great example.

So thank you. Now at Empire Sobeys you have led massive transformation, certainly like the new approach to loyalty that you shared. And this obviously requires a significant amount of change management as well as really strong internal support from across the organization. It's so much broader than marketing.

So what advice do you have for listeners who are leading a transformation and navigating that sort of complex challenge?

00:32:09.560 — 00:34:25.929 · Sandra
Transformation is rarely just a technical challenge. It's almost always also a people challenge. And one of the biggest challenges we had was the confidentiality around this project. Because it included several publicly traded companies we could not risk a media leak. We had to keep everything under wraps and share information on a need to know basis.

At its height, we had over 2000 people under NDA, so ifsomeone worked on the project for a day, they had to be NDAed. And it worked for security, but it backfired for engagement. Our leaders felt like they were holding a single puzzle piece without ever seeing the picture on the box. And the reality is people don't buy into what they can't see.

And we had reached a tipping point. I realized that the risk of a leak was smaller than the risk of an uninspired team. So we brought our Vice Presidents together and we showed them everything. We spent a day, you know, showing them the consumer research, the financial rationale, the why behind the transformation.

We let them weigh in on critical decisions, like whether to go big bang launch or regional rollout. And the moment they started shaping the plan, they stopped being observers and they started being advocates. But a transformation of the scale at a grocery retailer is not won in the boardroom, it's won in the aisles.

You can have perfect technology, great value proposition. But if the person at the checkout is not excited, the customer won't be either. So to engage our frontline employees, we launched in-store program where we traded boring manuals for these challenge kits that we shipped to every store. We had teams dressing up like movie characters competing to build the best displays.

We leveraged gamification to engage digitally with all of the teams, and what we did, really, is we turned a corporate mandate into a shared celebration. And the launch of Scene Plus was highly successful, not only from a commercial perspective, but also the engagement of our team. My advice to anyone leading a complex change is this. Your most valuable asset isn't your data or your technology. It's the collective energy of your people. Show your team the whole picture. Tell them why it's important. Give them the trust they deserve to make it happen.

00:34:26.010 — 00:34:44.290 · Alison
That is so well said and your line about the risk of a leak was smaller than the risk of an unengaged team, and then how you involve the people who needed to involve, how you gave them a voice, and how they helped refine and improve and make the new program even better is a masterclass. So, thank you.

00:34:44.330 — 00:34:51.970 · Sandra
And you know, we never had a media leak. It did not happen. So we trusted them. And, uh, it worked.

00:34:52.010 — 00:35:07.530 · Alison
They rewarded your trust. That's another great and important lesson for sure. Now Sandra, in our earlier conversations you talked about confident humility. And that really resonated with me. So I would love you to share more about the concept and how it has really shaped your approach in leadership.

00:35:07.530 — 00:35:44.070 · Sandra
There's a common misconception that leadership authority is built on having all the answers, but in reality, true authority comes from confident humility, which is the ability to be secure enough to be unsure. You can have total faith in your capacity to solve a problem, but the humility to admit you don't have the solution yet.

And when a leader makes that shift, they stop worrying about being right and they start obsessing over getting it right with the help of others. This is something that I had to learn over time, but I think it's a powerful concept.

00:35:44.310 — 00:36:12.470 · Alison
It's a very powerful concept, and especially for some younger listeners or for people that are in a leadership role for the first time. You can feel so much pressure to have all the answers. And when you step back from that statement and think about, it's like there's no one alive that has all of the answers. 

Yet we put this ridiculous pressure on ourselves, which sets us up for failure. So the whole concept is such an important one for, I think, leaders at every level, but especially people that are new to a leadership role.

00:36:12.840 — 00:36:14.000 · Sandra
Absolutely.

00:36:14.040 — 00:36:26.520 · Alison
Sandra, I'm really lucky to host senior leaders like you on this podcast. So I always end each episode by asking my guest to share one piece of career advice that they have for listeners who want to follow in your very illustrious footsteps.

00:36:26.800 — 00:37:55.700 · Sandra
At the start of our conversation, we talked about my early ambition to be in marketing. And while it's true that I knew my northstar early on, I think it's important to distinguish between having a compass and having a map. A map implies a fixed, predictable path, but in an industry that's changing as fast as ours, a career map isn't necessarily realistic.

My own path went from CPG to Crown Corporation to entertainment, a fashion retailer to pharmacy, mass merchandiser to grocery. I didn't foresee that. And if I had stuck strictly to a map, I would have missed the very opportunities that have defined my career. My advice would be this follow your compass, your North Star would be open to taking an unconventional route.

Maybe it's a different industry for a few years or another function to open up your aperture and build a broader business perspective. Whenever I'm at a crossroads and I need to make an important career decision, I always ask myself, what would I do if I wasn't afraid? And usually that question cuts right through the noise, and it can help you to confront your fears, whether it's fear of the unknown or fear of failure.

And it can point you towards the path that you actually want to take. So don't wait for that perfect map to appear. Adopt a growth mindset. Get comfortable with being uncomfortable and choose that path that requires courage.

00:37:55.860 — 00:38:17.870 · Alison
Thank you so much, Sandra. I knew going into this conversation it was going to be insight rich, highly informative and a lot of fun. And you have absolutely delivered in spades. So a huge thank you. A wonderful congratulations on your outstanding career. Thank you throughout for your support of the CMA, and I wish you every success as you embark on retirement.

00:38:18.110 — 00:38:33.750 · Sandra
Thank you, Alison, for inviting me to be a part of CMA connect. It's been fun and I want to also take the opportunity to thank you for your leadership of the CMA and everything you have done to future proof and to elevate our marketing profession in Canada.

00:38:33.790 — 00:38:40.150 · Alison
Oh, thank you. It was definitely a team effort, and with members like you, it's helped make us a lot more scalable and a lot more successful.

00:38:40.190 — 00:38:41.030 · Sandra
Thank you.

00:38:43.590 — 00:38:56.510 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Marketing isn't a cost centre – it's your greatest growth engine. Drawing on three decades at brands including P&G, Mars, TD Bank, Hudson's Bay and Loblaw, CMA Board Chair and President and Owner of Pattern and Path Consulting, Meghan Nameth joins CMA President and CEO Alison Simpson to make the case. Discover how to tie marketing directly to business outcomes, why most teams have the 80/20 planning rule backwards and the mindset shift Canadian marketers need to compete on a global stage.

CMAConnect-Ep69-MeghanNameth_FINAL.txt
English (UK)

00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23.640 — 00:03:03.100 · Alison
In a world where marketing can be wrongly treated as a cost centre instead of a growth engine, transforming that perception requires more than great marketing. It absolutely demands strong business acumen, strategic vision, a deep understanding of consumers and the evolving market realities, and really knowing how to speak the language of business.

For today's episode, I'm absolutely delighted to welcome Meghan Nameth, the newly appointed Chair of the Canadian Marketing Association's Board of Directors and President and Owner of Pattern and Path Consulting. Over three decades, Meghan has built a diverse and very impressive marketing career, working in both Canada and the U.S.

She started at Procter and Gamble, where she learned brand building fundamentals that have served her well throughout her career. After spending almost 11 years with P&G in progressively senior roles in Canada and at their U.S. head office, Meghan moved to Mars. She then expanded beyond CPG with roles in financial services as VP Marketing at TD Bank and Managing Director at PWC Canada.

She was also CMO at Hudson's Bay and the SVP of Marketing at Loblaw. This diverse industry experience further strengthened her marketing and business acumen. Meghan's work has been very well recognized at the Cannes Lion Cassie's, of course, the CMA awards, Cleos, Effies and the Media Innovation Awards. In May 2025, she was appointed Vice Chair of the CMA board, where she led the search for a new President and CEO following my announcement of my retirement, a responsibility that speaks to the trust and respect she commands in the marketing community. Meghan has now stepped into Board Chair role, and I'm really excited to see how she builds on the CMA's strong momentum during her two year term. What makes Meghan's perspective particularly valuable is her conviction that Canadian marketers have untapped potential.

We both share a belief that marketers must think bigger, drive more innovation, and really position themselves not as service providers seeking approval, but as strategic partners co-creating growth. Throughout her career, the CMA has been an anchor, providing the network's learning resources and advocacy platform that have really enabled her to elevate marketing's role in every organization she served.

Welcome, Meghan, it is an absolute pleasure to have you on CMA connect, and I'm really looking forward to your conversation today and celebrating your appointment as Board Chair. 

02:41 - Meghan
Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm happy to talk about marketing anytime actually. 

Alison
So our third annual CMA Marketing Week wrapped a bit earlier this month. And I know that you, along with thousands of marketers across the country, took full advantage and really engaged with a number of our events, thought leadership sessions as well as the training sessions. So I'd love to start by having you share your three big takeaways from this year's CMA Marketing Week.

00:03:03.100 — 00:05:59.800 · Meghan
It was an amazing week. I feel that these events are in some ways a bit of a reunion. I get to see so many people that I haven't connected with in so long and catch up and learn. And so it's really an amazing opportunity for networking and reconnection. And I think that's probably one of my biggest takeaways is that when I attend these events, I really feel the full value of what the CMA brings in connecting people across industries.

I see people from financial services, from when I worked in retail, CPGs, that I haven't connected with in a long time. So it really is that power of connection and learning what people are doing. So I think that's the biggest takeaway I have, because you can get really heads down in your own day to day job and forget to sort of look up and look around.

And that was kind of one of the biggest values that it brings. Secondly, though, there was a keynote speaker, Tucker Bryant, who talks a lot about how creativity and actually the creative process of poetry can bring value into innovation cycles. And from that, his message was do different things differently.

That really resonated for me because, you know, we talk a lot about AI, and AI was very present throughout the week of how we leverage AI, what AI can do for us. But there is a risk that we go so fast with AI that we forget to really interrogate the ideas, to really think about what's creative, what's different, what's really driving growth for an organization.

And I think his message was really about, you know, we can't all be the same. We should be different. We should be thinking about things differently. And so really thinking about a process to sort of do that inside your organization, I thought was really valuable. And then I think the third takeaway is the impact of marketing.

So there was a study that the CMA did with Signal 49 that really demonstrated or proved, I guess, the value of marketing to the Canadian economy. And so there was some sort of shocking statistics that, you know, $130 billion in GDP, really, 1 in 25 jobs are marketing jobs. This, for me, underscored, I think, what I've known for a long time, which is marketing, has tremendous value to drive growth for organizations, and that's really critical.

It also is the unlock for our productivity challenge in Canada that we can really demonstrate that these companies that we work in, we can help them to grow beyond our borders. And lastly, with the number of people in Canada involved in marketing, how critical the CMA is and our role to sort of really upskill and future proof that sort of function and people involved in the discipline.

So I think that was my takeaway, is the power of connection, doing different things differently and then the impact that marketing can have on productivity.

00:05:59.920 — 00:06:45.120 · Alison
Those are such great takeaways and the impact that marketing have now that we've been able to quantify it and really demonstrate that it is foundational, regardless of what sector or industry you're in, marketing is a driver of our economy. To your point, it's a key way that Canada can overcome our productivity issue.

And building on the keynote from Tucker, we are the best served around the executive table to really drive innovation and doing different things differently. Now Meghan, before we dive into your vision for the role as our new Board Chair, can you share a bit about your story? I know you started your career in supply chain at Procter and Gamble, which isn't the typical path into marketing.

So what drew you to this profession and how has that background really influenced your approach to marketing?

00:06:45.240 — 00:08:39.610 · Meghan
It definitely is not the typical path forward, but I'm so grateful, actually, that I got a chance to start in supply chain. And and after that, I actually did a really very brief moment in sales as well before moving into brand at P&G. But supply chain really helped me understand the mechanics of an organization.

Like, how does the product actually move from R&D into production and then onto customer shelves and all the challenges that can exist within that system? You know, especially in packaged goods, you can generate demand, but if there's no product on the shelves, it's really it's really sort of like, does a tree fall in the forest?

Will anyone know because they can't buy the product? And so I think really understanding that a strategy or a demand generation plan is only as good as what you can operationalize has sort of really continued on through my whole career. And now as I sit in a more service provider role, what we're working with clients on is not just how do you generate insight, but it's how do you actually take that to a business strategy?

How do you take that into your execution? And so I think that actually has been foundational for me. And how I approach marketing is more as a system. So it's marketing  is part of an organization's system for growth. And it's not the only part of the system. And so we have to work across all these different functions to pull them together, to really realize that demand generation and benefit that we create.

I feel really lucky that that's where I started, because I think that was a huge benefit. And I think the other thing was that very early in my career, because of how supply chain organizations are structured, I had very early people management experience and that, you know, has really benefited me in leading teams and helping to like, learn how to unlock the power of the talent on your team.

And I think that was a really great benefit as well.

00:08:40.169 — 00:09:09.060 · Alison
That sounds like a great starting point when you think of it. The best marketers have a very deep understanding of all aspects of the business and from a credibility perspective as well, the fact that you know and have worked in the operational side of the business, the fact that you've worked in the sales side of the business, those are such key partners to delivering on the marketing strategy and the marketing initiative.

So I would think that it also helped elevate your credibility across the organization as well. When you did move into a marketing role. 

00:09:09.100 — 00:09:39.140 · Meghan
Maybe, I mean, I moved to different organizations, so sometimes that doesn't always translate across. But I would say what it gave me is tremendous empathy for those roles. So a lot of times when you sit in one function, you really haven't walked in the shoes of another function. And I think it helped me to say, you know, we're not giving them enough information or we're not collaborating strongly enough or learning what they are up against to be able to influence different outcomes.

And so I think it gave me a lot of empathy for the challenges that exist in other parts of the organization beyond marketing.

00:09:39.180 — 00:09:58.750 · Alison
Now, we've talked a bit about your career spanning CPG, financial services and retail, including moving from very marketing-focused organizations to PNG to industries where marketing traditionally has had a bit less emphasis. So what motivated you to make these industry pivots, and what did you learn about leveraging your skills across very different sectors?

00:09:58.830 — 00:12:28.120 · Meghan
So many things, we could do an hour just on this, I think. Yeah, I did start my career in CPG and I would say the biggest difference was that they were multinationals. So in most of my time I was in Canada supporting organizations like Mars and P&G that were headquartered out of the U.S. And so Canada, you had to, first of all, you had really big roles.

Like maybe the size of the market wasn't as large, but the breadth of your role was quite large. And so you had to touch a lot of things, even if you couldn't go very deep, you were kind of moving across different elements of the business. And so that was a huge benefit to being in those multinationals. But you're always sort of, you know, working with your North American partners to sort of prove the value of investing in Canada, and you're sometimes adapting more work than you are creating work from scratch or even strategies from scratch.

And so it builds a different muscle in those multinational roles. Moving into financial services, in part, I did it because I wanted to work for a Canadian headquartered company where there was room for career growth, so that was a big part of that move. I wasn't actually sure that my skills would translate into financial services, but I think what I've learned is that the fundamentals of marketing, you know, who are you trying to attract?

Why are you marketing like, are you trying to convert new business, you know, deepen relationships? Those things move across all different industries. From what I've really experienced, the benefit of moving into financial services is how digital those businesses are. That really built out a different muscle for me around digital marketing and the amount of data.

And so I think one of the best things about moving into financial services was I really fell in love with analytics and insight because of how rich the data sets are in financial services, and also the talent that exists in those organizations to really look at new insights from all of that data. And it's kind of the same in retail.

You know, I had the great benefit of working for Loblaws and their PC Optimum portfolio has a tremendous amount of insight because of the breadth of that program. And so I think a lot of what motivated me was the opportunity to have an impact and opportunity to learn something new and experience something.

But I think the skills from each role sort of built on top of each other to help me make an impact in those roles.

00:12:28.160 — 00:12:44.970 · Alison
That's a great perspective for everyone in our audience to understand. I worked across very diverse sectors as well. And initially you think, oh, is this going to work or not? But to your point, the fundamentals are absolutely there, and I have a bit of a bias that makes us even stronger marketers when you have to translate them to very different industries.

00:12:45.010 — 00:13:21.450 · Meghan
When I think about what gets in the way of a great plan, often it has really nothing to do with understanding the industry, but a lot to do on aligning the pieces of an organization to make choices and move something forward. And that's kind of true across all different industries. If you can get everyone sort of aligned on a direction, making those clear choices a clear point of view and, and execute with excellence, that really works.

But often what disconnects is not understanding the industry. It's often getting the internal alignment.

00:13:21.610 — 00:13:28.650 · Speaker 2
Our ability to influence, for sure. Now you embraced a much more entrepreneurial career path. So what led you to take that plunge?

00:13:28.690 — 00:14:40.940 · Meghan
Well, so many things. I would say that the number one thing is, and I talked about it a bit as I talked about TD and the opportunity to work with the insights and analytics team. I really have always loved finding that unique insight that is going to move a business forward. That's been the favourite part of every job I've ever had.

It's, you know, really looking for that unlock from the consumer, from the market, from the business and trying to figure out what is it that's going to move something forward. And so when I thought about what did I want to do next? After my last role, I wasn't sure that I wanted to work in a larger CMO role because I wanted to work on multiple businesses and brands.

I've had, to your point, a lot of different experiences. And I also really wanted to focus on helping organizations find those unlocks. And that's really what we do is we are looking for deep insights that help move an organization forward, and we're really focussed not just on what is the insight, but how does a company take that forward, how do they get aligned, how does their, what are the next steps coming out of that insight? And that part is the part that I love the most. So I'm very happy to be doing this.

00:14:40.940 — 00:14:49.380 · Alison
And what was the biggest surprise, moving from the corporate brand side into more, much more entrepreneurial and service side part of the profession?

00:14:49.420 — 00:16:31.550 · Meghan
Well, there's a couple of things, and I think one is that it's hard to be a small business. Go from a large corporate organization where you have all these resources and support to, you know, a small business where you have a small team and you're trying to make an impact. So for smaller agencies and organizations, it is tricky.

There's a lot of bureaucracy, there's a lot of things that you need to do that you don't have as many resources to get it done. So that part's challenging. But also, you know, you just build a different muscle. I think the second thing that is maybe surprising is in some cases, we see clients being very disconnected from their customer.

And so I think it's an opportunity for everyone to remember that you need to see and talk to the people that are using your product or service on a somewhat regular basis to stay connected, and I am seeing a lot of people using AI, which is good to be efficient and using data to make decisions. So these are all good things.

But what's missing is that we've, in some cases, lost the human connection, and we're not spending enough time seeing people in real life using the product, observing people in stores and how they're shopping or observing how they're shopping online. I think we're relying a lot on digital tools, which have a limit to what you can really see in terms of human behaviour.

So I think what's an opportunity for everyone is to remind ourselves we can't understand our customer from our desk and to really get out there and see people in real life.

00:16:31.590 — 00:16:50.510 · Alison
Great advice. Now, you've also spoken about the importance of marketers connecting their work to the business growth and really helping the C-suite understand the mission critical impact that marketing has on the business. So from your experience leading marketing, where do marketers need to improve in order to get more credibility with the executive team?

00:16:50.550 — 00:17:56.200 · Meghan
Yeah, I think there's really nothing worse than a marketer that comes in to a leadership team and says how great the marketing is doing when the business is not doing well. So I think the first thing is, is that all marketers need to operate like leaders of the business and that marketing is a component of success.

And so that's the first thing, is to really recognize the context in which you're operating. So if the business isn't doing well, the marketing campaign might be performing, but something else is not, and everyone needs to be a part of that solution. The second is we have to speak the language of the business, not the language of marketing.

So I very much believe in building brands, but building a brand isn't a business outcome. And so I think we have to sort of start to translate our language into language that the CFO and the CEO are really interested in, creating shareholder value, generating income sources, new revenue streams, and really thinking about it from their lens, not from our own lens.

00:17:56.280 — 00:18:09.800 · Alison
So the language is such an important piece of how to do this effectively. So can you share an example of how you've translated marketing strategy into business outcomes that really resonated with the CEO or the board?

00:18:09.840 — 00:19:37.820 · Meghan
Yeah, definitely. So we talk a lot about whether marketing is a cost centre or not. I firmly believe that marketing should be really tied to revenue growth, because why would you be marketing if you're not trying to grow? That's really what marketing is designed to do. So one of the things that I did in a previous role is we were able to use and work with some great partners to build a model that helped to show when we market, are we generating profitable sales?

So what is the Ebit contribution to each marketing dollar? And what we agreed with our CFO is that we would spend until that got to a certain threshold, so that we were able to, on an ongoing basis, measure contribution of the marketing and whether or not it was incremental. And then we would stop marketing when it stopped being incremental to the business.

I mean, this was on a somewhat of a small scale. We were testing it before we rolled out, but it proved out to be very successful. And not everyone has access to that kind of data or that kind of performance. But I think what it demonstrates is that marketing should be very tightly tied to contribution. And that's where I think the you get more credibility is when you're willing to stop marketing, when it's not incremental, and you're also able to show how high is up and how big something can be if you continue to to invest in marketing that works.

00:19:37.820 — 00:19:54.980 · Alison
That's a really great example. Now your consulting work and being on the service side of our profession gives you quite a unique vantage point. You're now advising organizations instead of operating within them. So what patterns are you seeing across different companies when it comes to how marketing as both positioned and leverage?

00:19:55.180 — 00:21:30.470 · Meghan
Yeah, I think one of the things that is I think a myth is that that people don't value marketing. I think every CEO or leadership team that I have spoken to highly values great marketing. They may not think that the current marketing function is operating at its best, or they may not understand the constraints that the marketing team is up against.

But I have not spoken to a CEO or a leadership team that doesn't think marketing's important. So I think that's one thing that marketers should take to heart, is that it's not necessarily that you have to earn a seat at the table. People want you there. They want to know how marketing can make a difference.

And it's really up to us to demonstrate how we can do that for the business in a way that they can understand. So we come back to that, that language. And, you know, I had I was facilitating a session with a marketing organization and people were saying, oh, you know, we're not sure if if people really value us and the conversation we end up having is if a company wants to grow, how would they do it without marketing?

I'm not sure. I mean, they may be able to grow just on a sales team, which is possible, but the sales team will also want marketing support. So I think there's really if companies want to grow, they're going to need marketing support. And so I think we just need to step into that chair, need to step into that role and demonstrate what we can do to support the business in a really meaningful and efficient way.

And so I think we need to take less of a defensive posture and more of a proactive posture.

00:21:30.510 — 00:21:36.270 · Alison
Are you seeing any common blind spots that organizations don't realize are really holding back their marketing function?

00:21:36.310 — 00:23:35.960 · Meghan
Yeah, definitely. I think in some cases we've done a disservice by silencing different parts of marketing. Like we may push the marketing tech stack over to a technology team that may not have marketing experience. We may have siloed digital e-commerce into one role and then marketing into sort of more of a comms function.

I think marketing is at its best when they can see across a number of different capabilities so that they can more seamlessly connect communication to execution with technology. So I think that that's one area that organizations need to deeply look at is their connectivity across these different silos, and whether or not that's working effectively for them.

I think the second blind spot is, you know, with AI coming in in particular. Everyone thinks it can move really, really quickly. So what's true is that great creativity takes a little bit of time. You know, people really need to deeply find an insight and an unlock and understand the business challenge.

And so when I was in product supply, we had a rule that you should spend 80% of your time planning and 20% of your time executing, because if you have a great plan, your execution is pretty seamless. But I see today most people are spending 20% of their time planning, if that, and 80% of their time trying to execute so many different things that I think were off balance.

So I wish leadership teams would take a minute, do the offsite, spend some time planning what they want, what they need, what each function needs to contribute, how they want their customer experience to deliver. You know, all the different great strategic planning that we know makes a difference, because that would enable the whole organization to actually go faster in that execution.

And we would remove maybe that layer of suboptimal execution that we see, get out the door and or tactical things that people are spending a lot of time on, but might not be making a big difference.

00:23:35.960 — 00:23:44.800 · Alison
It's such a great point, because when you're under stress for driving results, when you're short on time, it is hard to resist the urge to move to tactics.

00:23:44.800 — 00:23:45.640 · Meghan
Just do do do.

00:23:45.680 — 00:24:14.600 · Alison
Yeah, yeah. But to your point, you end up spinning wheels and wasting a lot more time on the tactics and getting them right than you could have saved if you spent a little bit more time up front getting the alignment, making sure the strategic focus was solid, and committed to you by the organization before you moved into tactics, for sure.

Now I'm going to switch gears a little bit. You have been an active member for the CMA for many years, so a huge thank you for that, and I'd love to hear what led to your active involvement and how have you benefited?

00:24:14.600 — 00:26:32.620 · Meghan
I think the first time I went to a CMA event actually, was when I came back to Canada from the U.S. and I had gone to the CMA Awards, and I, I very much remember feeling this huge sense of community that I didn't really know existed because I had been connected to my organization at the time. I was at Mars, and I felt really good about my network there, but I realized there was this whole other world of people facing some of the same challenges I was facing and understanding the world I lived in, and that that was really meaningful.

And so that's when I started to get involved and really enjoyed the events. And every time I would take the time to come to a CMA event, I would realize again and again what that connectivity brings in meeting new people, hearing what they're working on, hearing the challenges, getting access to new insights or, you know, some of the policy work that the CMA does.

Those things are very, very helpful. And I think they're a bit of an untapped resource for many people. So that's really what inspired my involvement. You know, I've been lucky enough to be a member of a Council. I have been on different committees and now sitting on the Board, and I think that continues the connectivity across the vendors, across a different agencies.

It's the breadth of experiences people have. If I have a question about sponsorship, there are, you know, easily 4 or 5 people I can call to get insight if I'm, you know, concerned about how do we implement an AI policy. There is  one ready for me to look at as a starting point. And so I think that's really been the benefit of the CMA for me is that connections, the connectivity, the resources, and for my teams.

You know, when I was at a couple different organizations where we didn't have built in marketing training, the benefit of being able to leverage the CMA course catalogue to help augment people's personal development was really helpful, and then my organization didn't have to build our own marketing training.

We were able to really just tap into what already existed and that that was meaningful. Certainly for the people that worked in my teams.

00:26:32.660 — 00:26:51.460 · Alison
And in some of our earlier conversations, you also mentioned that the CMA served as a bridge to connect you with leaders across other industries. So can you share a bit about how the association supported you as you've navigated your career across from CPG to retail to financial services, and now to the entrepreneurial path that you're on?

00:26:51.500 — 00:27:58.110 · Meghan
Yeah, again, I think it's always about the people that you're connected to. And in some cases when you work in one organization, you only are talking to the people that you work with. So people inside your organization, vendors or agencies that you work with and so you don't get the opportunity to meet those that are outside your circle unless you really go out and look for it.

So it's been a really great opportunity for me to hear from other client partners. So when I was sitting in a CMO chair, you know, speaking to other CMOs, what are they working on? What are they finding successful in different challenges? And then I think, secondly, now as an entrepreneur, it's really wonderful to have the different councils and some of the white papers and the thought leadership that they produce allows us to stay on top of what's happening in the industry, what's happening across different elements of the industry.

And so I think that's been very meaningful for me  my career.

00:27:58.110 — 00:28:24.360 · Alison
And you're sure we are incredibly fortunate to have an incredible calibre of leaders, certainly on the CMA Board and also across our CMA committees and councils and the thought leadership that they helped generate is a really powerful resource for everyone that's a member and part of our marketing community.

So what has working alongside these industry leaders taught you, and what industry insights or trends have most resonated with you from those conversations?

00:28:24.400 — 00:29:48.160 · Meghan
Yeah, one of the things would be public affairs. The Public Affairs Committee is, first of all, a very well-run committee. They're the ones that helped to spearhead the marketing impact report, and they have skill sets that I haven't had as much exposure to working with government, talking about policy and self-regulation.

And those things are areas that I haven't had as much experience with. So I get a lot of value out of hearing from that group and hearing their perspective on different issues like privacy and AI, that I wouldn't have considered from this seat that I have been in. And so that's always meaningful to me, is hearing a perspective that's completely different from my own.

It really helps to sort of elevate my thinking. I would also say the leadership on the Board is incredible. So these are some of the strongest leaders in Canada, and they're across different industries. So it can be financial services, it's agency world, it's CPG, it's analytics. There's so many differences that are represented.

And the challenges that they're facing are sometimes similar and sometimes really different. And so it always gives me a person that I can call if there is something that I would like a different perspective on. And yeah, it just brings a lot of diversity of thought to the table. So we're very lucky now.

00:29:48.160 — 00:30:31.690 · Alison
It's also a really exciting time for the CMA. Our talented new President and CEO, Esther, officially joined us in March. And thank you so much for leading the recruitment process for that. I know we had a wonderful outpouring of very senior leaders from across the country raised their hand for the role, and it was wonderful to see Esther emerge as the unanimous choice.

And she is certainly off to a brilliant start. Now you're stepping into the Board Chair role. So we've got such a wonderful opportunity with two talented new voices to really lead us into the future. So I know our listeners are very curious to hear a bit about your vision for the CMA, and what do you really hope to champion and prioritize during your tenure?

00:30:31.850 — 00:31:43.420 · Meghan
Yes, so I think Esther is a wonderful choice. And actually I think I need to say thank you to you, Alison, because what you have done in the last few years at the CMA is what what made it so easy to lead a search for the CMA. So I think you've really elevated what the CMA can do for the marketing profession. And that made it an attractive role for so many.

So I actually think it's due to you that we are in this very fortunate position. And in terms of the vision for the CMA, for the future, I would say Esther and I are very aligned that marketing has a huge potential to support the growth of the Canadian economy. And so our focus is going to be on how do we need to support the industry to really accelerate that impact, and whether that is going to be learning and how we do that, or whether that's going to be advocacy or more community focused initiatives, we are very aligned that the CMA is here to help future-proof the industry and to help really accelerate the impact on the Canadian economy and help marketers be equipped to do that in the best way possible.

00:31:43.420 — 00:32:03.060 · Alison
And part of that is really helping Canadian marketers to think bigger, to drive innovation, to be really proud of the mission critical role that we have to really recognize that there's a lot of untapped potential in our industry. So where do you see some of the biggest opportunities for Canadian marketing and marketers to raise our game?

00:32:03.340 — 00:33:11.350 · Meghan
We need to be bold. So I would say that that is one of the biggest things we need to start to be bold and think really big. I was very inspired by a conversation I had with the team at Bell Media around how they've made Heated Rivalry such a global success, and that was a risk. And it was a risk in two ways. I think one thing it could have been a risk that that kind of show doesn't see the light of day, that someone doesn't greenlight that project, that someone doesn't distribute it effectively, that it doesn't get the platform that it could have deserved.

And so I think kudos to them for not just making the show, but making it a huge success by thinking boldly about how can this be a global phenomenon? And that's what I think Canadian marketers need to do, is instead of thinking about, how do I make this a little bit better than last year, it's how do I make this a global phenomenon?

That is, you know, second to none. There's no reason that we can't have our companies and our brands sit on a global stage. And I think we can we can be bold. We have that opportunity.

00:33:11.470 — 00:33:27.950 · Alison
You're absolutely right. It is long overdue time to retire the humble Canadian thing that we are so proud of and absolutely come out to be proud of the boldness and the seats that we all deserve, both nationally but on a global stage as well. I love your Heated Rivalry example of that.

00:33:27.990 — 00:33:32.750 · Meghan
Well, thanks to Bell for that, because that certainly has nothing to do with me, but very impressive. Very impressive.

00:33:33.510 — 00:34:00.720 · Alison
Oh, it's definitely an inspiring example of what we can do when we approach opportunities like that with the boldness that we should do. So I have the pleasure of hosting very senior people as guests on the podcast, so I always end each episode by asking you to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

Now, given you've got quite a unique journey across industries into board leadership, I'm very excited to hear the piece of wisdom that you're going to share.

00:34:00.760 — 00:34:32.480 · Meghan
I wish I could say more than one, but I think the biggest thing that I would say is to say yes. So I think one of the things that has helped me in my career is being willing to say yes to opportunity, to say yes to the job, say yes to the next project, to the challenge. And I think saying yes was part of what has enabled me to move across.

So I think a lot of people might have said no to moving from, you know, chocolate marketing to insurance. Or they might have said no to, you know, moving to the U.S. or trying to move into insights and analytics. And all of these moves have been so helpful and have built on new skills. And so I would say for those that are starting out in their career, say yes to that next opportunity. Really look to build a portfolio of experiences that are going to help to drive you forward, because that's that's what I think has helped me the most is the breadth of experiences and the, um, you know, the different experiences.

So my advice would be to say yes to this.

00:35:05.120 — 00:35:27.800 · Alison
Well, that is great advice. And on behalf of the CMA and our marketing community, thank you so much for saying yes to coming to your first CMA event years ago, saying yes to your first Council, to joining the Board, and now saying yes to becoming our Board Chair. I'm really excited for how bright the future is for the CMA under your leadership.

So a huge thank you and thanks for a great conversation.

00:35:27.800 — 00:35:32.160 · Meghan
Thank you. I'm very honoured to be part of the team. So thanks.

00:35:34.560 — 00:35:47.520 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

When you can't outspend the competition, you have to out-think them. In one of her final episodes as CMA President and CEO, Alison Simpson sits down with Rachel McAdam, Vice President of Marketing at Skip, to explore what it takes to build a Canadian challenger brand against global giants. The conversation covers the "Skip to the good part" rebrand, a partnership ecosystem built on Canadian passion points and a three-sided marketplace strategy. The standout? The cultural agility that turned a rap beef into a campaign so effective it shut down competitor apps.

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00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23.040 — 00:02:26.210 · Alison
In a market dominated by global giants, how does a Canadian founded challenger brand like Skip not just survive, but thrive? The answer lies in doubling down on authenticity, building strategic partnerships and really recognizing that marketing is about much more than reaching consumers. It's also about driving growth across every stakeholder in your ecosystem.

For today's episode, I'm pleased to welcome Rachel McAdam, Vice President of Marketing at Skip. Rachel is leading a Canadian founded and built business and one of our country's most recognized food delivery brands through a significant transformation, from Skip the Dishes to simply Skip expanding their delivery service beyond restaurants to retail, and also navigating intense competition in a market where deep-pocketed competitors can easily outspend smaller players.

Rachel brings deep expertise and loyalty marketing to this challenge. Having spent significant time at Loyalty One, she played a key role in building Air Miles into one of Canada's largest brands. She really understands how to create emotional engagement and build lasting customer relationships.

This expertise has proven invaluable at Skip as she navigates the loyalty wars in food delivery. Under Rachel's leadership, Skip has distinguished itself through a uniquely Canadian approach to partnerships. They're going beyond sponsorship deals to becoming strategic pillars that can really help reinforce Skip's Canadian roots, while also expanding reach in ways that transcend traditional marketing spend. From priority concert access through Live Nation, wide-ranging partnerships with the Toronto Blue Jays, Disney Plus, CIBC, and WestJet,

Rachel has built what she calls an ecosystem approach to loyalty, tapping into Canadian passion points rather than competing purely on price. What makes marketing at Skip compelling is how the team understands and approaches managing the needs across a three-sided marketplace. Rachel has some great examples to share in how her team is delivering on this.

Rachel is part of a leadership team, transforming Skip from a functional utility into something broader and much more meaningful. Rachel, welcome to CMA connect. It's a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today, and I'm looking forward to a great conversation. 

00:02:26.210 — 00:02:27.450 · Rachel
Thanks. Looking forward to it.

00:02:27.530 — 00:02:42.250 · Alison
Now, Rachel, as I mentioned, you spent a lot of time at Loyalty One and really helped build Air Miles into one of Canada's largest loyalty brands. So coming off of that experience, what was it that attracted you to the Vice President of Marketing role at Skip, and what were some of your early priorities?

00:02:42.490 — 00:03:25.270 · Speaker 3
Yeah, you know, what was great about Skip is that it had a lot of the similarities of Air Miles from its early days. So, you know, it's a great Canadian brand. Um, it was rooted in really a three way marketplace, which was very similar to Air Miles. You know, Air Miles is about connecting consumers to retailers through the loyalty program, and Skip really is about connecting Canadians to their favourite restaurant or retailers through the delivery ecosystem.

And so I really loved that about it. And I love a good challenging opportunity. And so to your point, the delivery category is, um, it's it's very fast paced, it's very competitive. And I really felt like there was a huge opportunity for marketing to play a key role in the transformation of the business.

00:03:25.470 — 00:03:44.870 · Alison
We're like-minded when it comes to being attracted to big, hairy, challenging goals, and you're doing an amazing job with Skip. So one of the big things you did was evolve the brand from Skip the Dishes to simply Skip. And clearly there's a lot of strategic thinking behind dropping the dishes, so I'd love to hear more about that.

And also, how does it reflect where you're taking the business?

00:03:45.110 — 00:05:34.640 · Rachel
Yeah. So when we were looking at the transformation of the business, you know, what's interesting is Skip was a scrappy start-up. Covid hit, you know, exponential growth in delivery. But it really created a new expectation for consumers that it wasn't now just about delivering my favourite pizza on a Friday night, but now I'm looking for convenience and delivery much broader than that,

And we really felt that our brand positioning of Skip the Dishes wasn't really reflecting this broader services that we were offering to Canadians, and it was really keeping us limited in the minds of Canadians. We also felt that we weren't tapping into a key point of differentiation, that we were the Canadian brand, you know, created in the prairie provinces.

We run on Canadian technology, but we weren't really leveraging that. And we did research. And, you know what Canadians said was, that if all things were created equal, you need to be price competitive. You need to have my favourite restaurant, but I will choose a Canadian brand. And this was sort of before the the upswell of Canadiana came in.

Even before that, that really was very much part of what Canadians were looking to support Canadian brands. And so between those two things, we really said we are missing an opportunity to set ourselves apart from these big global organizations or brands in the market. And so we took that research. We worked with Courage as our agency to understand what's the consumer insight?

What's happening culturally? And where's that white space opportunity for Skip to really own and differentiate? And that's where dropping the dishes, bringing the maple leaf into the logo so that when you quickly look at your phone, you probably have multiple delivery apps on your phone. Let's make sure that we're reminding you that you do have a Canadian option, an opportunity there.

And then we dropped the dishes really as we were launching into retail. So that really was the first signal to the Canadian consumer that I can actually get much more than just food delivered by Skip.

00:05:34.960 — 00:05:52.680 · Alison
Now you're doing a great job of reinforcing Skip's Canadian roots. Also through your new spokesperson, the new campaign, and partnerships with really iconic Canadian brands. So why is this Canadian positioning such a crucial differentiator, and how do the partnerships in particular work together as an ecosystem?

00:05:52.720 — 00:08:45.630 · Rachel
Yeah, I think we are in a very competitive category with two very large brands in particular that come with deep pockets. And if you're not going to outspend on media or in vouchering, how do you make sure that you set yourselves apart? And we really felt that the Canadian element of our brand, of our technology, the fact that we are feet on the streets in Canada was a key part of differentiating, but we couldn't do it alone.

And that's really where partnerships came in. So we we introduced the new brand positioning. We leveraged actually a previous spokesperson with Jon Hamm because he came with actually great affinity to the Skip brand. There was very positive association. And the original campaign had sort of positioned Jon as wanting to be Canadian.

So it was, well, he's not Canadian, it was actually reinforcing that he wanted to be Canadian aspect of it. And so we used that sort of as a nod to our past. But also we then had Jon tell the new story that it was Skip at the grocery store and at the pet store and sort of all the ways that you could Skip. And then partnerships launched shortly after.

So we introduced the new brand in October, and then we quickly launched Skip Plus subscription. And so we felt that the brand promise of "Skip to the good part." We help you skip the hassles of every day. That was always foundational to what Skip was a part of. But now it wasn't just helping you skip dinner, but it was helping you skip the trip to the pharmacy, skip the trip to the liquor store.

But we wanted to make sure there was a proof point, that it wasn't just a tagline, that it actually was a brand promise of helping you Skip to the good part, which is where partnerships came in. And so we launched subscription about six weeks following the brand relaunch, and that really became the proof point that said, we talked about helping you skip to the good part. Here's another proof point to say we can help you skip to the things that matter most to you, which really tapped into passion points. You know, we were we were third to market on subscription. You know, you could look at that as a disadvantage that we were last to market.

We actually looked at it as an advantage that we had the opportunity to see what's in market, what are we competing against, and then how do we create that ownable, authentic aspect to Skip. And that really became our partnerships, that we are going to help you skip to the good part, not just on delivery, but that Canadians are passionate about music and they're passionate about travel.

And so how do we bring that to life? That was through partners, that we're going to help you skip to the good part to get to the concert that you love most. We're going to help you skip to the good part and get to the travel that you love. And so that's really where partnerships came in. And we launched with CIBC, with WestJet, with Live Nation, really to help prove out that brand promise of helping you to skip to the good part, which was an addition to the core value proposition that was required.

So we need to be competitive on price. We need to be competitive on supply. But opening up that emotional engagement, those additional exclusive experiences, really, we felt were the point of differentiation we can make in the Canadian market.

00:08:45.870 — 00:09:09.370 · Alison
And skip to the good part, is such a compelling promise to consumers, and I love the way that you're delivering on it. You're also somewhat unique in that you're marketing to three very distinct stakeholders: consumers, couriers, partners. There are other brands that certainly have multiple stakeholders as well, but it can also be fairly unique for a number of our listeners who aren't in that current environment.

So why is this multi-stakeholder approach critical to your success?

00:09:09.410 — 00:11:09.460 · Rachel
Do you know what's interesting? Often, you know, as marketers, we talk about what we're doing and we talk about the consumer. But equally, if we think about our role as marketing, it's really about ensuring the flywheel works. And so really as this three way marketplace, we need to have all three stakeholders getting benefit out of this relationship in order to make it work.

So, you know, if marketing puts a great campaign in market and we drive you to the app, but your favourite restaurant isn't there, you're not going to order. Or if we put a great campaign in the market and we drive you to the app, but the delivery time is really long because we don't have enough couriers driving, you're not going to order again.

And so that's why the three way to marketplace and making sure that we are delivering on that brand promise to all three stakeholders is so important. And I would say, you know, I think one of the things that has been so impactful for us, as we sort of are on this transformation journey is that the brand promise of skip to the good part is fully embraced by our CEO, Paul Burns.

He really views that brand promise not as the responsibility for marketing to deliver, but everybody across the organization has the responsibility of delivering the good part to their stakeholder. And so as much as we focus on delivering the good part to the consumer, we are equally supporting our partnership team on how do we make sure that we're delivering marketing campaigns and marketing tools and capabilities so that our partners like McDonald's and Loblaws, that we just announced can actually grow their business off our platform.

And with the couriers, how do we make sure that we're helping our couriers with their businesses, grow their business on the Skip platform? And we do that through activations with McDonald's, where we set up pop-ups, where couriers can come in, we give them new bags, they have fresh, you know, Skip delivery bags, but they also get free coffee from McDonald's.

In the fall, we ran free oil changes, so like helping them grow their business. And so I would say that's really been a key part of that ecosystem. That flywheel working is making sure that skip to the good part is a brand promise for all three of the stakeholders.

00:11:09.500 — 00:11:36.900 · Alison
Those are great examples, especially when you think about how much of your brand is in other people's hands, and courier being the best representation of someone's going to either be really pleased with the experience or if something goes wrong, not just blame the courier, but it reflects badly on your brand as well.

So I love that you're taking them into consideration and helping set them up for success, whether it's your oil change or recognizing that it can be a tough job and often fuelled by coffee too.

00:11:36.940 — 00:11:42.820 · Rachel
Yeah, I mean, they literally deliver the last five feet of our brand promise, is the Courier experience.

00:11:42.820 — 00:11:50.820 · Alison
And in your time at Skip, has the approach evolved at all or was that something that the brand has long recognized the importance of?

00:11:50.820 — 00:12:06.160 · Rachel
I think the brand always felt that couriers were a key part of the experience. I think because of the relaunch of the brand and rallying the organization around this brand promise, I think has brought new ideas and new ways in which we're engaging couriers that we haven't been doing in the past.

00:12:06.200 — 00:12:26.400 · Alison
Now, leveraging pop culture moments can also be a very effective brand strategy. And when we were talking earlier, you shared a great example of that when Kendrick Lamar mentioned a Toronto restaurant during the Drake rap beef. Your team moved super quickly to capitalize on the moment, so I'd love you to share what happened there and how you were able to be as agile as you were.

00:12:26.440 — 00:14:37.410 · Rachel
You know, I think it's a great example of a close partnership with our agency, so I give great credit to Courage. They very much embody our brand as much as we do. They really are an extension of our team. And so they're always looking for cultural moments where Skip can authentically play a role and be part of the narrative.

And so the Kendrick and Drake beef was a great example. I think the rap dropped on a Wednesday. We had a call Thursday and they were like, you know, it mentions the restaurant that's on the network, we should do something about it. And by Friday morning we had a digital truck driving around downtown Toronto, leveraging some of the phrases from the rap with a 50% off at that restaurant.

And what was great is it created some, you know, obviously we had influencers, there's some organic conversation around it. And we exceeded what we would normally put through that restaurant in a three week period, we delivered in one night. And one of the best signals to say, like, did we really make an impact is they actually turned off the competitor apps because they couldn't handle the volume we were driving through Skip.

So that's one example of if you know what your brand stands for, you've got a finger on the pulse of what's happening, you can really tie it together. I'll give you another example. When the tariffs first came out and we wanted to reinforce the fact that we're the Canadian alternative, we introduced what was what was called spell codes.

And every day for a ten day period, we would put out a clue in social where if you spelt the word the right way, the Canadian way, we would unlock a voucher and we tailored the vouchers based on what the conversation was around tariffs. So it was a 15% voucher. And then oh no, no, it's a 25% voucher and now it's a 50% voucher.

And and it was great because we had people talking in social, about like what's the clue going to be today and what do we think the keyword was. And so again, it was another way of like reinforcing where the Canadian option without saying we're the Canadian option, but it was a point in time that only Skip could authentically be a part of that conversation.

We weren't going to have an American competitor start talking about, you know, being Canadian during the tariff situation. And again, it was another one where we know what we stand for, we know who we are as a brand. And when that cultural moment came, we were able to quickly turn it on and really create something of value to the consumer.

And that really put us in, you know that conversation.

00:14:37.650 — 00:14:47.050 · Alison
I love those examples. And the ultimate proof of success is when the restaurant shuts down your competitors because you've driven so much demand to their location, so...

00:14:47.050 — 00:14:48.610 · Rachel
It was a great day.

00:14:49.290 — 00:15:03.110 · Alison
Now, you mentioned earlier that you were last to market with your subscription offering, but instead of seeing that as a disadvantage, you very much positioned it as an advantage. So how are you differentiating from the very functional offerings of your competitors?

00:15:03.150 — 00:17:05.510 · Rachel
Yeah, I think that was one of the things that we saw when we were taking a look at, you know, what is in the market today. And what we saw is even though there is well-established subscription programs in market, there was still a high degree of app switching. So consumers clearly weren't seeing enough value in what was in market to have loyalty to those.

And we really felt what was missing is that while there was functional benefits, there really wasn't anything in there that was exclusive or, you know, recognition-driven. And we really thought Skip had an opportunity to own that. And it very much lined up with our brand promise. And so from a subscription perspective, launching with Live Nation, launching with WestJet, really taking some of those gamification kind of aspects and delivering it in a way that drove exclusive experiences would be a point of differentiation.

And and we're really seeing that take root. And, you know, I'll give you an example. We sponsored Oseaga last year, which is a music festival in Montreal. About 50% of the people in, uh, in the festival actually come from Ontario and other parts of Canada. So it really does represent, you know, a Canadian target audience.

And Skip sponsored it. But we had an exclusive experience just for Skip Plus. And so to get into this exclusive, sort of premium experience, you got to be a Skip Plus member. And then you get access to, you know, a makeup touch-up area. And we had soft seating under coverage from the hot sun. And most importantly, we had an exclusive bathroom and bar area.

And if you've ever been to a music festival, there's nothing better than exclusive bathroom and bar. And, you know, it was a weekend that we had some of our our highest signups for Skip Plus because consumers saw that there was added value, added experience, exclusive experience of being a Skip Plus member.

And so those are the kind of opportunities that, yes, we need to deliver on the functional benefits of free delivery, reduced service fee, bonus points. But there's an opportunity to create that higher degree of engagement and loyalty by offering something above and beyond. And so that's been a big part of the Skip Plus, uh, value proposition since we launched.

00:17:05.870 — 00:17:16.069 · Alison
That's another great example. Now with free bathrooms out of music festival, you did set a very high bar. You drove a lot of interest in sign-ups. Were you able to keep them all as well?

00:17:16.430 — 00:17:35.470 · Rachel
Yeah. So converting them over is a great question. That's where we then followed up quickly with a life cycle program to say welcome to Skip Plus. And then we started giving the functional offers the value proposition to get them to use Skip. And so the quantity and quality of customers coming through that activation have been very positive for Skip Plus.

00:17:35.550 — 00:18:12.060 · Alison
Now I do want to drill down a little bit more on customer service because as we talked about earlier, you're not in control of the final five feet or often five miles. So given the interdependencies that you have on fulfilment delivery partners, when we talked earlier, you shared that part of the inspiration for everyone at Skip and led by your CEO, Paul, is around unreasonable hospitality, which is very much a philosophy that comes from 11 Madison Park. So I'm intrigued to learn more about how that served as an inspiration to you and the leadership team, and how it's really helping evolve Skip's approach to customer experience.

00:18:12.340 — 00:19:51.960 · Rachel
Yeah, I would suggest if you haven't read the book, it's a it's a quick read, but it's a really interesting read on on creating exceptional service across every touchpoint. And so I think rooted in the fact that Paul really believes that the brand promise of skip to the good part is not a marketing responsibility, but it's an entire organization has been a key part of that.

And so then we've all gone back and said, how am I contributing to helping my stakeholders skip to the good part? Get over the hassles, get over friction in the experience working with us or delivering for us or ordering through us to make that happen. We did an end-to-end research study around the customer experience journey from start to finish, to understand where are we excelling, and how do we lean into those moments of delight that Skip gives?

Where are we meeting the competition and where are we behind, so that we can then prioritize. You know, there's always more opportunities than there are resources to solve them. So then it helped us prioritize, where do we need to address first. And then we took the lens of, we're a Canadian brand and there's a way that Canadians help others that can be a point of differentiation. 

And so our customer care team in particular is taking a look at our policies, our engagement strategies, and we're testing different things to say, how can we deliver a better experience? First, we want to make sure you don't have a problem to begin with, which is our logistics and our app.

But if you do have a problem, how do we make sure that we are making that as delightful a solution, a Canadian way to solve your problem as possible? And so there's a series of tests  and measurement that's going in through a CARED group in particular, to address that and find ways that we can elevate the customer experience beyond what's happening in our category.

00:19:52.400 — 00:20:24.420 · Alison
Now, you've shared a couple of times that you are very fortunate to have a CEO who not only understands and supports marketing and sees it as mission critical to driving the business forward, but also understands that bringing the brand proposition to life can never only be the marketing team's responsibility.

So not all of our listeners will have the benefit of that. So I'd love you to share any advice you would have for marketers that are working with senior leaders that don't necessarily truly appreciate the powerful impact that marketing drives from a business perspective?

00:20:24.580 — 00:22:20.150 · Rachel
Yeah, you're right. As a marketing leader, I'm very fortunate to work not only for Paul, but for an organization, you know, the Skip leadership team believes in the role of brand and believes in their role in contributing to the customer experience. I would say a big part of it was bringing teams along.

It was sharing the voice of the customer, not just with the marketing, but across the different functional areas within Skip. You know, we did a kick-off across the organization. We did a brand video that talked about what this opportunity was for us to have this come to life. What did that mean across the organization, you know, and the best example like I think when we knew we had shifted it from a marketing initiative to an organization initiative is when we saw some of the other teams that were doing off-sites and they were producing merchandise that said, skip to the good part. 

It's like, okay, this is no longer within marketing hands. It's in, it's in the organization. And that's really just been fed over the last year and a half, two years that the brand's been in market.

And so I would say that the big piece is, is bring people along. The voice of the customer is always more powerful. Storytelling is really effective at getting a message across. Yes, our finance team likes to see the numbers, but they're also consumers. And so when you talk about solving consumer problems and how the brand can own a unique way of delivering that versus the competition, you bring people along.

People want to be a part of it. I think there's a lot of pride in the Skip organization when they see the brand in market, when they see social commentary around things like spell codes and skip the diss with, you know, with Kendrick Lamar. People are proud to work for an organization that is culturally relevant that, you know, has a voice that is, you know, delivering great experiences for customers.

And the more you can share that and have everyone feel a part of it, the more effective it will be, and sort of transcending the marketing function into being, you know, across the organization.

00:22:20.470 — 00:22:36.310 · Alison
It sounds like you're doing an amazing job in creating really powerful ownership across the organization. And then there's such a wonderful momentum to that when you see the team come together, you celebrate your shared successes. It's just going to drive it even further in the future. So kudos to you for accomplishing that.

00:22:36.630 — 00:22:50.710 · Rachel
There's some great momentum, and I give great credit to Paul and the way in which he has led across the leadership team. It's not really a marketing function as much as it's really an organization-wide success story, for sure.

00:22:50.870 — 00:23:14.770 · Alison
Now, you mentioned CFOs are always interested in numbers. So if your CFO is listening, we'll make this next question for him. I know from our earlier conversations that the marketing you're doing is delivering measurable business growth for Skip, which is absolutely the goal for every marketer. And I'd love you to share what marketing business results you're the most proud of, and how you're demonstrating marketing's business impact to not just your CFO, but everyone in the organization.

00:23:15.010 — 00:25:15.340 · Rachel
Yeah, Skip is very much a data-driven organization. You know, as a marketing team, we get daily metrics on our order volume. We have weekly reviews of all of our business metrics. And so we very much are looking at how the work we are doing is driving the KPIs for the organization. And so, you know, marketing we take a look at what is the business trying to solve.

And then we build our plan in support of those OKRs of those key metrics. And so we're looking at how is our upper funnel awareness driving sessions? How is our venturing and offers driving conversion? How are we driving greater customer engagement through our life cycle journeys? You know, upward migration of customers, retaining our best customers, those kind of things.

I would say that the metrics I'm probably most proud of is related to Skip Plus. We were third to market. So, you know, it's not easy to break through a market that had well-established, two existing subscription programs and then delivering, you know, sustained engagement. And I would say, you know, what was great with that program is, you know, we came out of the gate with CIBC.

They've been a great partner for us, not only, you know, delivering value to their customers, where you can get Skip Plus for free, but, you know, tapping into an audience that we otherwise wouldn't necessarily get access to. And so, you know, we achieved a significant amount of new customer growth through our CIBC partnership.

And we're seeing not just the quantity of customers coming through there, but the quality of customers being very positive. And so Skip Plus is driving lift and frequency. And we are seeing lift and retention of those customers that sign up for Skip Plus versus a comparable control group that are not signing up for Skip Plus.

So I think, you know, the team has done a great job of building the first phase of Skip Plus. I would say, you know, like anything, you can't launch and leave it. It requires constant feeding and nurturing and so more evolution and enhancements to come to Skip Plus in the coming months ahead. But we're really proud of the launch out of the gate and more to come.

00:25:15.540 — 00:25:30.500 · Alison
Terrific. Now, Rachel, I know you're super busy. I appreciate you giving us the time that you've been able to give us today. Before I let you go on with your busy day, though, I would love you to share one piece of career advice that you have for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:25:30.620 — 00:27:06.750 · Rachel
You know, I will share advice that was given to me once, which is, think about your career as a spider web and not a ladder. And if I was to look back at my career, you know, I spend the vast majority of my time at Air Miles, and I benefited from growing my career at the time that the organization was growing. So there was the benefit of always new opportunities within the same organization.

Take the opportunities, even if you don't directly see the upward trajectory of that opportunity, but the ability to learn how to learn and to put yourself into roles that you might not have the specific experience, but you're going to build transferable skills over time. You know, I didn't know delivery at the time that I joined Skip, but I had transferable experiences coming from Air Miles I could apply to it, because the reality is that the jobs in marketing today didn't really exist ten, 15 years ago, right? 

And so I would expect that the jobs in five years from now probably don't exist today. And what's going to take you there is going to be your transferable experience, your ability to learn on the fly, to take new opportunities and embrace sort of the ambiguity that comes with new opportunities. But getting that, you know, lateral opportunities, lateral roles, try different areas will just create a benchmark of experiences that you'll be able to take into any new opportunity. 

So I think it's served me well over my career. And so I would just encourage, you know, try not to say no, take opportunities that come. And I think marketing just as a career is a career of constant curiosity, and that'll set you up well for any role in the future.

00:27:06.790 — 00:27:28.790 · Alison
I couldn't agree more. Especially now. And when you think about it, every time you take a lateral position or stretch yourself with a new role, the business and the marketing, new skills that you're building give you this powerful toolkit, and you're also ensuring that your brain is always agile and embracing the change that is inevitable for everyone that's decided to have a wonderful career in marketing.

So thank you, Rachel.

00:27:29.150 — 00:27:29.870 · Rachel
Absolutely.

00:27:29.910 — 00:27:33.910 · Alison
I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and I'm wishing you a great rest of your day.

00:27:33.950 — 00:27:35.430 · Rachel
Thank you. This was fun.

00:27:38.030 — 00:27:40.229 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the cam.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

The CMO role isn't dying – it's evolving. Based on anonymous interviews with marketing leaders worldwide, Confessions of a CMO reveals five distinct archetypes built to thrive under today's pressures. Join outgoing CMA President and CEO Alison Simpson, SVP, Partner and Head of Strategy at FUSE Create Jon Crowley, and Associate Creative Director, Verbal at Monigle, Krisi Packer, as they unpack the research, apply a distinctly Canadian lens and help you discover which archetype you are.

00:00:00:12 - 00:00:14:18
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect Live. Confessions of a CMO. With your host Alison Simpson and special guests Jon Crowley and Krisi Packer.

00:00:14:20 - 00:00:43:04
Alison
I'm Alison Simpson, and welcome to our third ever live CMA connect podcast. We've had the pleasure of kicking off CMA marketing week since it was created, and it's wonderful to be back here again to do the same thing. Love sharing the energy in this room with all of you. And also a huge thank you to the hundreds of marketers who have joined us from across the country, especially our friends on the West Coast who are getting up extra early to be part of our CMA marketing week kick off.

00:00:43:06 - 00:01:11:11
Alison
For years, we've been hearing that the CMO role is dying. We're seeing shorter tenures. We're seeing shifting titles. We're seeing shrinking budgets, fractured influence. The headlines right themselves. The death of the CMO has become far too common rallying cry on conference stages and in LinkedIn, thought pieces. But as Mark Twain very famously said, the reports of our death are greatly exaggerated.

00:01:11:13 - 00:01:45:05
Alison
And that's exactly what our data shows. When CMO's lead customer centric growth company's see 1.4 times higher performance. When that leadership is fully integrated across the organization, growth doubles again. And here in Canada, our own Kantar research tells the same story. Top Canadian brands grew 10% last year, which is significantly outperforming Canada's GDP growth over the same period of 1.3%.

00:01:45:07 - 00:02:14:19
Alison
So marketing leadership absolutely is not dying. It is evolving. The species survives because we adapt, and that's what we're here to explore today. Today's conversation is based on exclusive research that asks CMOs to confess what really happens behind closed doors. It's not the polished LinkedIn version of leadership. It's the unfiltered truth, the failure of forced adaptation, and the strategies that really helped ensure survival.

00:02:14:21 - 00:02:39:09
Alison
What emerges from those candid conversations is a new taxonomy of marketing leadership. We have seven distinct species picking up on the evolutionary theme that dazzle shared with us, and each of the species has evolved to thrive under very different corporate pressures. Joining me today are two people uniquely positioned to unpack these insights. Krisi Packer is the co author of confessions of a CMO.

00:02:39:11 - 00:03:08:04
Alison
She's also associate creative director of Verbal at Monocle. Monocle conducted dozens of anonymous interviews with CMOs around the world, from CPG to tech, from Europe to Asia Pacific, and of course, Canada. And they really captured the honest moments when leaders could finally speak freely about what it really takes to survive in the C-suite today. Jon Crowley is a partner, senior vice president and head of strategy at Fuze Create.

00:03:08:06 - 00:03:31:07
Alison
Jon works directly with Canadian CMO and marketing leaders every day, and really helps them navigate the exact pressures that this research helped unveil. He's bringing the Canadian perspective to a global conversation. Well, Krisi and Jon are going to share what they discovered, including which CMO space that they identify with. And here's what makes the research really, really powerful.

00:03:31:09 - 00:03:53:22
Alison
It isn't prescriptive. It doesn't tell you which species you should become. Instead, it helps us hold up a mirror and says, here's what's working. Here's how leaders like you are thriving and adapting today. So Krisi and Jon, please join me on stage. I'm looking forward to an insightful and very fun conversation. So, Krisi, let's start by giving our audience a quick field guide.

00:03:54:00 - 00:04:03:05
Alison
Can you walk us through the five dominant species and their defining traits? And we'll treat this as a bit of a nature documentary. How do we spot each species out in the wild?

00:04:03:07 - 00:04:13:20
Krisi
Fun fact that this field guide does have very nature documentary style intros for all these. Just great. I'm going to spare you my David Attenborough oppression though. Jon, I think you have him right? Yes.

00:04:13:22 - 00:04:14:15
Krisi
So let's first

00:04:14:15 - 00:04:33:06
Krisi
start with, our chief beauty officer. So I'm going to go through these really quickly. The report is incredibly in-depth. So just know that I'm going to just hit the high notes here. So that way we can you know what your appetite. So the chief Mutiny officer this is our strategic war breaker or our disruptive mutation of the chief marketing officer.

00:04:33:07 - 00:04:53:17
Krisi
And really, their job is to kind of enter a place of organizations and release, you know, controlled doses of rebellion. That can look like a lot of different things. But one of the things I love to, give an example for is they will, do anything and, take action even before alignment exists. Right? And they'll use results as proof that they were right, that they should have watched it.

00:04:53:19 - 00:05:12:06
Krisi
I know a lot of you might be thinking, hell, yeah, like mutiny. Burn it down. That sounds amazing. That is so reckless. But the truth is, mutiny officers are not reckless. They are highly calculated and precise about when and where to break the rules. And I think what I love about them the most is they, don't wait for that change.

00:05:12:06 - 00:05:16:00
Krisi
They provoke it. And, Alison, I know your type is Mutiny Officer.

00:05:16:02 - 00:05:35:16
Alison
Yeah. So thank you for describing us as not reckless. When I did the quiz, which everyone will have an opportunity to do as well, I did identify as a Chief Mutiny Officer. And what was interesting was when we've reached out to other Canadians to get a sense for the different profiles that are emerging. Chief Mutiny Officer was one of the lowest to emerge in Canada.

00:05:35:16 - 00:05:46:21
Alison
So I know a little bit later Jon will talk about why that is. Is that just us polite, humble Canadians is a political pressure. But we will dig into a little bit more of how we don't have more Chief Mutiny Officers.

00:05:46:23 - 00:06:12:11
Krisi
Absolutely. All right, so next we have our Chief Missing Officer. This is our invisible operator or a master of camouflage. And I think this one has the most misleading name. When you hear missing, you probably think I'm absent. Like, do they come to meetings like, what's actually going on? But they are far from absent. They're actually just stealth. I think if the apex, Chief Marketing Officer, if you will, was sort of a show boater. They're a credit share, right?

00:06:12:13 - 00:06:34:11
Krisi
They are aligning leaders before a big meeting. They are embedding marketing priorities and other business functions. And, you know, they might not be in the meeting, but their fingerprints are on every single decision. And this is something that, I typed as, as well. Next, we have our Mood Officer. This is our stabilizer. They are the people that are always thinking about the tone in the room.

00:06:34:13 - 00:07:02:11
Krisi
It's very vibes coded. It's very, you know, understanding that the decisions that are made are just as important as the environment that it's in. You might spot them in the wild when they're, you know, cutting well-timed jokes to cut the tension or, you know, they're absorbing all that negativity that's in the room just to move the idea forward. So very, very vibes coded. And, honestly, one of the people that really sets the tone for, the environment for ideas to be made in.

00:07:02:15 - 00:07:31:00
Krisi
Next we have our Chief Meeting Officer. This is our translator. And I think this is most, closely aligned to a marketer's traditional skill set. They are really connecting the organization through narratives, right? They're bringing together, you know, finance, customer experience, all these different things and really understanding how to talk to them about marketing. And a lot of times in really convoluted situations, too, they're just stating the obvious, which I think is a very important tactic. And something beautiful about the narratives that they create.

00:07:31:00 - 00:07:37:15
Krisi
They really bring people back to the human part of the organization and the mission.  And, Jon, I know you tie Disney off the right?

00:07:37:17 - 00:07:54:13
Jon
Which is maybe the most stereotypical thing for an advertising strategist to type out as sort of the list of options. It's, the concept of, you know, Narrator's Translation, this idea of bringing everyone along on the story. It's kind of like when you read a horoscope and you're like, oh, yeah, I do do that a lot. Maybe I am stubborn as a Taurus.

00:07:54:15 - 00:08:14:18
Krisi
All right. And finally we have our momentum officer. So this is our propeller. That's always driving progress. They were born, into the depths of red tape, and they've evolved to know how to cut through it, which I think is really interesting. They move too quickly to fall into those bureaucratic traps, and they really trade theory for action, right?

00:08:14:20 - 00:08:35:09
Krisi
You won't catch them, you know, debating something. They're going to be, you know, launching not one campaign, but ten campaigns. They are, moving faster than the speed of debate, which I think is very interesting. And it's not just about speed, but it's about intention as well. So if you all are interested, scan the QR code. You can do, the typing tool right now, probably takes 30s.

00:08:35:11 - 00:08:38:06
Krisi
It is not a personality quiz, but it's just as fun.

00:08:38:08 - 00:08:50:14
Alison
So we're going to dig into some of the global patterns. And then also the Canadian, what emerge from a Canadian perspective. So Christy, since you've released the report and you've continue these confessionals with number of CMOs, what are you seeing?

00:08:50:16 - 00:09:12:15
Krisi
I think what we're seeing is that CMOs are categorizing themselves situationally and deploying the tactics strategically. Just as Jon said, you know, we can't have our horoscope saying, you know, you're gonna have a bad day to day or you don't like bad smells or something, you know? I think what's interesting about this is they are looking at the report and saying, who am I?

00:09:12:15 - 00:09:34:09
Krisi
Which traits can I use a different text situation? So we had a CMO who we interviewed. She was, great. She's like, I read the whole report, I did the typing tool. But I have to tell you, when I was reading through everything, I saw myself in every single species. Right. I'm a momentum officer with my team. I'm a meaning officer of my board. And I'm a munity officer with my peers, which I think is interesting.

00:09:34:09 - 00:09:51:01
Krisi
So the idea here is to, again, hold a mirror up to what we're all doing right now and really understand what our, you know, strengths are, but also where can we stretch into other species that we might not be as comfortable with? If you're a momentum officer, you're constantly in motion. Always think about the next thing. Maybe a mood officer.

00:09:51:01 - 00:09:58:02
Krisi
We have to slow down and really think about the tone. That could also be something that you could be stretching into there. That's not second nature.

00:09:58:04 - 00:10:16:07
Alison
Well, it's also encouraging that we as marketers are able to adapt with the environment, adapt with different business pressures as well. Now, Jon, how does the Canadian landscape differ from what Christy found globally? We talked a bit about Chief Munity Officers. Are a bit missing in action in Canada, but what other differences did you see?

00:10:16:09 - 00:10:32:05
Jon
Well, a couple of things jumped out that we thought were absolutely fascinating, and we had a bit of an off the record conversation with a group of Canadian marketing leaders. One of the first ones just to call out that that lack of Chief Munity, the officers in the room, was possibly the most Canadian outcome I could have ever imagined.

00:10:32:07 - 00:10:52:23
Jon
Like in in our day to day work, we work with a lot of business leaders, both within and outside Canada. And the thing that comes up consistently is people work in the Canadian marketplace are a little more conciliatory in their approach. Other markets, even ones that may be nearby, maybe a little bit more kind of aggressive and confrontational in how discussions are brought together and how things are looked at.

00:10:52:23 - 00:11:13:09
Jon
But something that came through in conversations with Canadians in the overarching Canadian approach is that there is a real tendency to kind of be the right person for the room in the moment that you're in. Similar to what Krisi talked about, about that, that need for adaptability. That was very highlighted to the point where, you know, in a room of nine, Canadian CMO was talking about their role as marketing leaders and what motivated them.

00:11:13:11 - 00:11:29:22
Jon
The most common point was, I can't distill my day or my work down into just one of these. I need to be all of them every day to manage the relationships internally, to manage the relationships with my customers and our partners, and to ensure that we're getting to the best outcome on a consistent basis.

00:11:30:00 - 00:11:37:11
Alison
So I love the adaptability I love the Canadian politeness. What I don't love about that is does it imply risk aversion?

00:11:37:13 - 00:12:01:15
Jon
So I think that's a fantastic question. I think I think the interpretation of risk aversion is one that comes up a lot in reference to Canadian marketers and really to Canadian business in general. I've heard the same criticism about Canadian manufacturing and Canadian financial institutions and so on and so forth. I don't think care about building strong relationships and keeping them steady actually implies risk aversion.

00:12:01:17 - 00:12:10:08
Jon
I think it is entirely possible to have a high risk tolerance while still having a very collectivist mindset. And I think there's a tendency to confuse the two.

00:12:10:10 - 00:12:30:09
Alison
Absolutely agree. And it's all about not risk for risk side. But measured risks will help our businesses go for it. So the research also reveals three really interesting paradoxes that really contribute to whether you're a successful CMO today or not. The first is adaptation beats dominant. So, Krisi, what does this mean in practical terms?

00:12:30:11 - 00:12:53:18
Krisi
Annotation beats dominance means, I think, the demise of the, you know, old school command or control, you know, CMO the old days, right? It's usually about big budgets, big campaigns, owning the narrative, owning the functions, splashy things. And it's like, okay, well, that just isn't a thing anymore, right? The organizations were in a world, frankly, it's unpredictable. It's chaotic.

00:12:53:18 - 00:13:14:13
Krisi
It's, you know, something you can't control. And so I think now it moves from, you know, instead of marketing owning their function, it's navigating the system in which marketing exists. Right? We had a CMO talking about, his company, and he was saying that each business unit had their own marketing department. It was part of a legacy thing with the company.

00:13:14:13 - 00:13:35:12
Krisi
And as you can imagine, that is a hairy situation to be in. But what he said next really struck me, which was, this isn't a marketing problem. This is actually a change management problem. And I think that right there just incredibly stuck with me because that is the role now, right? It's not just about marketing, it's about navigating the entire system you're in.

00:13:35:14 - 00:13:40:12
Krisi
And I think having that adaptability, which marketers naturally do, is a really good head start.

00:13:40:14 - 00:13:50:06
Alison
Now, Jon, how are you seeing this come to life in Canada? And if I don't know if you have a specific Canadian example, you can share where that adaptability versus dominance really helped contribute to success.

00:13:50:08 - 00:14:15:18
Jon
So I think this is actually a really interesting thing to look at, because I think this is actually closely tied to the be like friendly, collaborative nature that gets called out when Canadians go work in other markets. One of the discussions that actually came up in our, in our off the record room of CMOs was the success the Canadian marketing leaders have had by going elsewhere and being able to bring that collaborative collective slightly less confrontational approach to bear.

00:14:15:20 - 00:14:37:08
Jon
The thing that jumped out more than anything else when, when looking at these stories about adaptability, is how many times I've seen people need to pivot from operating in an organization that's very traditionally based to one that suddenly becomes 100% digital, and something I got to see working with a lot of marketing leaders in this country over the course of Covid was just like, oh, my entire business changed last night.

00:14:37:10 - 00:15:04:15
Jon
How do we continue functioning? How do we adapt to a digital first mindset to instantaneous economic instability, which really does seem like it's kind of been a watchword in Canadian marketing for the last seven years at this point. But watching people need to pick their moment to completely pivot absolutely everything they're doing while still maintaining a sense of comfort and continuity in that we're all the same in all of this together, has been something that I've seen a lot of Canadian marketers excel at over the last several years.

00:15:04:17 - 00:15:30:14
Alison
Great insight. Thank you. Now the second paradox is soft about soft power builds really hard results. And everyone in this room is in marketing to advance business and to drive growth. So the report says that as the C-suite is fragmenting with more specialized roles, the person who connects it really can gain power. So, Christie, in some ways that feels a little bit counterintuitive. Shouldn't fragmentation actually dilute marketing's impact?

00:15:30:16 - 00:15:59:08
Krisi
Yes, on paper it does to my fragmentation should dilute marketing's impact. But in reality it kind of creates a vacuum. Right? So today's C-suite is incredibly specialized and thus kind of fragmented, right? You have, you know, chief data officers, analytics revenues, sales growth. It's like alphabet soup up there, right? And I think it's important to understand that with each of those specialties become the silos, because they all touch a piece of the customer journey.

00:15:59:08 - 00:16:14:18
Krisi
Right. But it's very fragmented. That's very splintered. So I think where marketing's power can grow is the CMO who is able to connect. That entire system is the one that gains the more power, which I think is very, very important.

00:16:14:20 - 00:16:22:20
Alison
And Jon, to your earlier point, there is something uniquely Canadian about our ability to do that. So that does set off up for great success in Canada, but also globally, which is

00:16:22:20 - 00:16:23:14
Krisi
great to hear.

00:16:23:16 - 00:16:44:21
Jon
One of the things that we've had played back to us by multiple Canadian CMOs, because this is, you know, a smaller market from a global perspective. There are lots of hats that everyone needs to wear. And so very often that that singular marketing leader, that singular, that singular brand manager might need to be a person that is managing eight different, very distinct relationships with different partners and vendors.

00:16:44:21 - 00:17:16:00
Jon
And they need to be able to shift from speaking performance marketing to speaking experiential marketing to speaking digital path to purchase and figure out how they're going to handle sales optimization, both online and in store, to having a presentation with their boss to justify what the why. The last quarter numbers played out the specific way they play. It's a lot more natural to need to speak 5 or 6 different languages in a marketing role than it is in many others, and that could often fall off the radar because It can be easy for people outside of the world of marketing to sometimes think we're the colouring things in department, rather than being the one who needs

00:17:16:00 - 00:17:22:15
Jon
to figure out how everything that the brand thinks it needs to be kind of goes out into the world and connects with human beings.

00:17:22:17 - 00:17:53:00
Alison
So the third paradox might actually be my favourite. Absurd friction feels traction. Now, this is the idea that when other functions don't understand marketing, when they hand us conflicting, compressed, contradictory demands that can actually lead to significantly better marketing outcomes. And I and been in a number of CMO seats myself, I absolutely had colleagues and C-suite executives that didn't understand marketing, and it can make for some painful weeks, without a doubt.

00:17:53:06 - 00:17:57:13
Alison
But I love the fact that that can actually lead to better marketing. So Kristie, please elaborate.

00:17:57:15 - 00:18:20:12
Krisi
Yeah, I think, you know, what's interesting about this is I'll go back to this quote that I hear from, I heard from one of the CMO, which is it's the only C-suite role where your job is kind of fielding absurdity. Right. And I think you're holding so many different contradictions. You're doing a bunch of different things. And I think, Jon, I know you want to elaborate on this a bit, too, but just the idea that sometimes our jobs are a little bit absurd and like, that's okay.

00:18:20:16 - 00:18:37:06
Krisi
But kind of leaning into that actually helps you build traction instead of saying like, oh, this is this is too much, how can I then say, all right, well, I'm going to lean into this and understand that again, there's contradictions. There's all the things, but it's part of the job and I'm going to lead with it 100%.

00:18:37:06 - 00:18:59:11
Jon
I think a moment that most senior marketers have ever worked with, can relate to, is needing to be the person who says the very uncomfortable thing in the room, that the average person does not care this much about brands, and therefore we need to. We need to remember that, like maybe they haven't remembered the five core pillars of our brand story when they're walking into a retail location.

00:18:59:11 - 00:19:20:11
Jon
Maybe they don't have this deep understanding of the history that we're discussing. So passionately in this boardroom. Sometimes that's the most powerful moment of absurdity, the reminder that as much as our customers centric in everything we do, and we are so passionate about the work we do, lots of leaders need to be the one to remind the team around them that in the consumers lives, we are 1% of 1%.

00:19:20:11 - 00:19:36:15
Jon
I mean, there was conversation earlier about the importance of going out and buying a car and the level to which we are not thinking about car brands unless we're buying a new car or unless our car is broken, can't be overstated. And that's not a statement about something being wrong with car brands. It's about any kind of deep specialization.

00:19:36:15 - 00:19:46:12
Jon
There's an absurdity in loving a business and loving creating results in a space that is not top of mind for people every day. But we can't all be Beyonce, and I'm okay with that.

00:19:46:14 - 00:20:04:12
Alison
So another theme that emerged from the research is positioning. Marketing really is a nervous system for an organization, which I love. So it describes us as being the nervous system. So Christie, how do we know and had a CMO what signals that marketing really is like a nervous system for the organization?

00:20:04:14 - 00:20:28:20
Krisi
I think CMOs are uniquely positioned to really, you know, detect and balance, you know, pressure and change before really anybody else, especially on the C-suite. That's like an external pressure is we're always looking for understanding consumer behaviour, emerging consumer patterns, cultural shifts, and also internally, right. We can understand when an organization's risk for appetite is pretty low or a message isn't landing.

00:20:29:02 - 00:20:41:08
Krisi
There's a lot of things that we're always doing, but we're not just forecasting. I think, again, we're metabolizing all of this to help the organization move forward. And I think that's why it's the nervous system of the C-suite.

00:20:41:10 - 00:20:58:20
Alison
Now, Jon, you work with CMO and senior marketing leaders every day. So for the ones that you're seeing, really picking up on those signals and really acting as a nervous system for their organizations, how are they translating that to business speak and to drive engagement from their CEOs, their CFOs and their close?

00:20:58:22 - 00:21:18:07
Jon
So I think this is a fascinating and important question, because even over the last five years, there's been a significant shift in what reporting structures look like in different organizations. I mean, you can no longer take it for granted that a CMO is going to be reporting directly to a CEO, and marketing is going to be treated as not a cost center, but as something that helps build the business overall.

00:21:18:10 - 00:21:35:22
Jon
You're in situations where lead marketers might be reporting to a CFO that is looking at it strictly from a perspective of what are the dollars and cents going in and coming out? How do we find that? Not that attribution is the only approach, clearly, but how do we find the attribution model that justifies the expenditures we're making here?

00:21:36:00 - 00:22:01:23
Jon
And so this actually led to a lot of conversation from Canadian CFOs about that need for adaptability, about that willingness to kind of change the language and the approach they're using. Because for some, it will come down to being able to show them existing research and math. Driving home the idea that x percent increase in positive brand perception should have this increase in acquisition of new customers, or in sales to existing customers or retention.

00:22:02:05 - 00:22:24:08
Jon
Other people won't find those metrics meaningful unless they come specifically from your organization. And sometimes the necessity is to go into that deep modelling work to be able to show them that as much as the work that marketing does best sometimes may not be as immediately measurable as performance marketing work, it is here to grow the bottom line to generate future demand and help the business succeed.

00:22:24:09 - 00:22:54:01
Jon
Unfortunately, there's no there's no magic bullet for this. Every audience is going to be slightly different in every business because they have a slightly different preexisting belief system. As to the role of marketing, the value of marketing, and how it kind of flows down the pipeline. But the one thing I've consistently never heard in any of the conversations about this is that leaning hard into the dogfight for attribution is something that's going to pay off, in that when you look across the entirety of a business, there's a lot of people claiming attribution for the same sales.

00:22:54:03 - 00:23:14:00
Jon
They may not all be in the same meeting together, but I promise you that a sale being claimed based on a really fantastic performance, better ad campaign is also being claimed based on optimizations to the retail environment is also being claim based on optimizations to the user. Flow of the website is also being claimed by massive shifts in product design.

00:23:14:00 - 00:23:31:23
Jon
That happened four years ago and are just now hitting market, and so leaning into those kind of a one dimensional attribution conversations does kind of make it hard to define value. Being at. You need to find a way to clearly define to leadership. The value marketing is bringing to the table that is unambiguously a benefit of marketing.

00:23:32:01 - 00:23:48:20
Alison
So, Krisi, we talked a lot about and every conference you go to, you hear about how much marketing is changing, how much the role of the CMO is changing and evolving. So this might be one of the harder questions I ask you. How would you define the role of the CMO in one sentence today?

00:23:48:22 - 00:24:13:16
Krisi
One sentence, might two.. can be a run on sentence. Run on sentance. I think that's helpful. CMO is our environment architects. I think despite all of the fragmentation, the chaos, the splintering, all the different things we're dealing with, they still are the people that are intentionally setting the tone for brand and marketing and ideas and teams to really thrive.

00:24:13:18 - 00:24:26:03
Alison
Now, we also have there's so many misperceptions around the CMO role around marketing. So, Jon, if you could on stage today retire one misconception about a CMO role forever,

00:24:26:06 - 00:24:27:08
Krisi
what would it be?

00:24:27:10 - 00:24:56:16
Jon
I would have to lean into the artificial barrier between brand marketing and performance marketing, and we can use different words. AD James Herman, who works with the, the World Advertising Research Council, actually has this really great breakdown of, capturing existing demand versus creating future demand. There is a tendency to completely discount the entire value of marketing in the work of a CMO, frankly, in helping build future demand and create future customers for business.

00:24:56:18 - 00:25:16:04
Jon
At times that can be completely ignored, as though it's hypothetical and not essential to future success and growth. And so I think I would basically say, like if I was going to change anything about the perception of the role, any myth and make it go away would be the idea that you are somehow choosing between brand building and moneymaking, as though there is any reason to build a brand that is not about making money.

00:25:16:06 - 00:25:41:15
Alison
Let's officially retire that one, because I couldn't agree more. So, Krisi, you had the pleasure of having anonymous conversations with CMO around the world where they could be very forthcoming about the challenges, and I'm sure there were some very disarming, surprising insights that were shared. So without giving away your source, obviously, what is the most unexpectedly human confession you heard in all of your interviews?

00:25:41:17 - 00:26:02:16
Krisi
Well, I think I'll just start by saying that the entire report is incredibly human and disarmingly human. Because, you know, when we set out to create this report, we could have easily made a report that said, okay, what are your 2026 priorities? What's keeping you up at night? I, you know, like all these different things, but instead we were we wanted to do this under the cloak of anonymity.

00:26:02:16 - 00:26:25:07
Krisi
Right. Because we find the best conversations happen before the mic turns on an interview. And that's when you hear the coolest things and really what people are actually going through. So the way we set this up was really important in the idea of having these human answers and really empowering, close and great ways. And if I had to pick one, I would say I really resonated with this CMO who talked about the role of subjectivity.

00:26:25:07 - 00:26:41:21
Krisi
Right. Subjectivity is woven into our roles, unfortunately. And so that naturally opens the door for everyone, and I mean everyone to weigh in on what we do. But instead of saying like, oh God, this sucks, how do we change this? She really just said, listen, this is not a flaw of the role. This is part of the role.

00:26:41:21 - 00:26:57:15
Krisi
And this is something that CMOs have to learn how to navigate no matter what I think, especially as a person on the creative marketing side, I really loved hearing that empowerment because it's important to understand how to do this. It's not a woe is me. Why is this happening? Why is everyone wasn't the CFO, not me kind of thing.

00:26:57:20 - 00:27:02:20
Krisi
It's more like this is part of the role and we have to learn how to navigate it. And this is what we do every day.

00:27:02:22 - 00:27:10:10
Alison
Now, Jon, you've also had a lot of off mike conversations. So what's one insight that was shared with you that doesn't typically show up in a marketing report?

00:27:10:12 - 00:27:25:08
Jon
I think maybe my favourite single thing I've heard while talking to people about this report and this research, was when someone played back to us that this is really interesting. They're not 100% sure they want to make it this explicit, how they get their boss to do what they want.

00:27:25:10 - 00:27:47:16
Alison
So before we open it up for audience Q&A, there is a fascinating opportunity that comes out of this research that I wanted to share. While we've sort of typecast CMAs with this study as one species, the reality is we none of us are just one species. We are very adaptable, based on who were meeting with what we're doing, the stage of the business, the company we work with.

00:27:47:18 - 00:28:10:08
Alison
So the fact that we can shift and based on market size, organizational maturity, that actually makes CMO incredibly well positioned, I would argue, the best positioned in the C-suite to help organizations manage through change. It's something we've been doing throughout our career. So how can we turn this adaptability into our superpower? And Christy, why don't you kick us off?

00:28:10:10 - 00:28:32:14
Krisi
I said this before, but I think, you know, we are inherently adaptable, right? It's just really taking it to another level. It's not just being adaptable in marketing, being adaptable across the entire organization. Again, I talked about this before too, but just the idea of absorbing contradiction. There's a lot of it in the role and really being able to move through that in different ways, I think is really important piece of this.

00:28:32:16 - 00:28:33:21
Alison
And Jon, what about you?

00:28:33:23 - 00:28:56:13
Jon
I mean, I think the most exciting thing about adaptability and adaptability framed as a superpower is, and I'm not sure if anyone's noticed, but there's a small amount of chaos going on in the world these days. And so to me, it's really affirming that in times of uncertainty, in times of a lot of change, we've kind of seen this framing of the power of adaptability in the way it feeds into your ability to thrive in changing circumstances.

00:28:56:13 - 00:29:10:13
Jon
And so I think the fact that that's so baked into the role, and from what we've heard from Canadian marketing leaders so baked into their understanding of the role, it's very interesting to talk to a large group of people and come away with the feeling that they're just really well built for chaos.

00:29:10:15 - 00:29:31:01
Alison
Well built for chaos is officially our superpower. So we're now going to open it up for an audience Q&A. We have members of the CMA with mics that are with us in the room today. So raise your hand if you have a question. And for the hundreds of marketers joining us virtually across the country, please post your question in the chat and we will share it here.

00:29:31:03 - 00:29:44:14
Alison
So it's always the first brave soul to raise their hand and ask a question. Now we have a very brave soul at the back. Thank you Dean. So I'm curious about, this the species. Could your species be based on your organization? Could you change as a

00:29:44:14 - 00:30:06:07
Krisi
CMO depending on where you land? So I think, the species and the traits within it, really depend on where you're at your organization, who you are, who you're talking to. You know, who your team is. Again, we're not typecasting, as, you know, one species or, you know, like, Jon's a Taurus, right? It's like, what are your sun, moon and rising right.

00:30:06:09 - 00:30:07:15
Krisi
Bring it back to astrology.

00:30:07:17 - 00:30:24:04
Jon
I love it. I will say that was actually one of the things that came up from a lot of people that we spoke to in the Canadian market specifically that, well, you know what? My last job, I really operated more in this way, but in my current role, the environment and the tone of where I'm working really leans me more in this direction.

00:30:24:04 - 00:30:34:05
Jon
So I do think that's yet another example of that adaptability we were talking about. But definitely much like evolution, the constraints of your environment will determine what specific attributes help the next generation thrive.

00:30:34:07 - 00:30:37:09
Alison
Thanks for kicking off for Q&A. I'll open it up for the next question.

00:30:37:13 - 00:30:47:03
Krisi
I'm also curious, while we're waiting, if you did the typing tool, who did they type as a mutiny officer? Oh love it. Missing meaning.

00:30:47:05 - 00:30:48:08
Alison
Mood.

00:30:48:10 - 00:30:53:00
Krisi
Ooh, I like the vibes. All right. Momentum.

00:30:53:02 - 00:30:53:18
Alison
Interesting.

00:30:53:21 - 00:30:56:18
Jon
Were not telling us because their direct manager is.

00:30:56:18 - 00:31:01:09
Krisi
Yeah. No no no no no no. Well we'll talk afterwards.

00:31:01:11 - 00:31:05:13
Alison
Now, Krisi, how typical was that compared to when you do the same thing globally?

00:31:05:18 - 00:31:27:12
Krisi
Yeah, I mean, we we see a lot of meaning officers right now, which is again, like the traditional skill set. And it really is taking it to a new level. And I will say, you know, you mentioned in Canada there's not a lot of muting officers. And we're not we're not seeing a ton either in general. But I think the more and more people dig into the report and the more they think about the different situations they're in and they're like, oh yeah, this is where I mutiny.

00:31:27:12 - 00:31:28:15
Krisi
You know?

00:31:28:17 - 00:31:40:10
Alison
Now we have our first question from online. So, Krisi, you're sharing this research in a rapidly changing market. How are you seeing the findings evolve as the role and landscape continue to shift?

00:31:40:12 - 00:31:55:01
Krisi
Yeah, it was the hope of the report. This is not just an artifact. In time, we're going to be we're in a second phase of interviews and trying to you know, open up the research a bit more. And I'm honestly curious. We we didn't cover this, but there's two emerging species that are in this as well. And one of them is the mosaic officer

00:31:55:01 - 00:32:19:10
Krisi
And this one's all about if the meaning officer is about, connecting organizations through narratives, this one is actually connecting them, you know, physically. Right. Especially with emerging technology like AI, different martech stacks, all these different things. It can cause a lot of tech silos, actually, in, organizations. So the mosaic officer, is the red thread for that.

00:32:19:10 - 00:32:32:11
Krisi
And it's really great in a post-merger environment, too. So now that we're seeing a lot more of, you know, people, typing themselves and also saying, okay, this is something I'm interested in, and this is also something that's emerging, I think in the market, I'm curious to see how those emerging species, evolve over the year.

00:32:32:15 - 00:32:49:07
Alison
And the other questions from our in-person audience. Okay, so we have a braver virtual audience. So they've come back with another question. And this one is for both of you. If a marketer listening today wants to consciously develop traits from a species that they don't naturally embody, where should they start?

00:32:49:09 - 00:33:08:16
Jon
Well, I obviously would start by reading the report in extreme detail and trying to internalize all the different learnings, because we do think it's frankly a valuable and really kind of fascinating look at the role. But I would say that, from what I've seen, from what I've experienced personally, this is an industry that has really thrived on a lot of direct mentorship.

00:33:08:18 - 00:33:30:12
Jon
And broadening your influences can be a deeply valuable thing. Similar to broadening, I mean, this is this is a little bit more game advice, but broadening where you've actually worked in that direct experience, the environments you connect with, the people you work with will shape the toolkit you have, inevitably. And so there's a certain level of actively trying to learn new skills and import them into different situations.

00:33:30:12 - 00:33:40:19
Jon
That's plausible, but I do find that people who most naturally shift between different approaches and patterns of behavior do have hands on experience operating in environments where those are the norms.

00:33:40:21 - 00:33:42:10
Alison
And Kristy, I'd love your thoughts on that too.

00:33:42:16 - 00:34:03:03
Krisi
Yeah, I agree with that. And I think it's also just, you know, understanding that, like Jon said, this is a very detailed report. You don't have to use every single tactic. But perhaps, you know, you're looking again to be, you know, say a momentum officer. See like think about the situations that that could be useful and. Right? And then also think about the people you're working with and you know, try out a couple tactics every now and then.

00:34:03:03 - 00:34:21:07
Krisi
You know, you never know when it can work or land, and you never know when you can be like, that's just not me. I'm not doing that, you know? And that's okay. Right? It's important to understand, again, this is sort of a collective report to kind of showcase all the different types of behaviors that CMAs are exhibiting right now to really thrive in the C-suite.

00:34:21:09 - 00:34:23:19
Krisi
So I think, you know, just try it out.

00:34:23:21 - 00:34:39:00
Jon
It's going to make a ton of sense that the the report kind of calls out signature moves for each group. There's two great exercises, which is the one would be a great time for the signature move. And then the second one, be one would be a time I should never, for career limiting reasons, consider using this signature move.

00:34:39:02 - 00:35:03:16
Alison
So open it up one last time for our in-person audience to see if there's any question. So we will wrap with one more question from our virtual audience. So, Christy, the report talks about how the pressures that once hunted only CMO and now stalk the entire C-suite. So which of these adaptive traits, translation timing, emotional acuity do you think other C-suite executives need in order to develop?

00:35:03:18 - 00:35:17:13
Krisi
I would say translating, for sure. I think CMOs are naturally good at this. We are constantly doing it all the time across the C-suite and across the organization. And, you know, soon, I think the rest of the C-suite is going to have to catch up and do that as well. Jon, what do you think?

00:35:17:15 - 00:35:43:07
Jon
I'm actually 100% aligned on translation being really essential. One of the things that I think is kind of fascinating is we've, from a professionalization standpoint, gone from businesses being primarily led by experts in those specific businesses to being primarily led by experts in business. And so suddenly translation is actually a core part of understanding what it is your business does to make money beyond operational efficiency and smart financial management.

00:35:43:09 - 00:35:49:12
Jon
And so the more that skill set becomes universal, I think the better businesses are going to be in everything they do, not just marketing.

00:35:49:14 - 00:36:05:19
Alison
Thank you both. Now, before I let you go, I and I may connect podcast by asking my very talented guests to share one piece of advice that you would share for our audience, joining us today who aspire to follow in your footsteps. And, Jon, why don't you kick us off?

00:36:05:21 - 00:36:27:10
Jon
Ooh. If I had to offer a single piece of advice, it would be working very hard on finding the correct balance between arrogance and insecurity. Very often, people lean too far in one direction and start thinking, I can't do this, and this is impossible for me, and that's terrible for you. Or they lean too far in the other direction, and they think I am naturally brilliant and more capable than anyone else.

00:36:27:12 - 00:36:43:15
Jon
And why would I not just go do whatever I want to do? And both of those paths lead to disaster. But if you can find the right point of, I may not know how to do this, but, you know, there's no reason anyone is naturally better than me being able to figure it out. You can get there pretty much anything.

00:36:43:17 - 00:36:55:22
Alison
I couldn't agree more, especially in today's reality. If we are not constantly learning, not just as marketers, but as business people, we are going to be left behind at remarkable speed. So, Christy, what advice for you sharing today?

00:36:56:00 - 00:37:15:07
Krisi
I think for me and also just, the CMO that we talked to in the report, I mean, the way everyone gets to marketing is not linear whatsoever. It's just important to think about what fuels you. Right? Like I started my career in journalism and public radio. Then I moved into communications, PR, digital marketing and now branding.

00:37:15:07 - 00:37:21:10
Krisi
And so the red thread for that for me is storytelling. So I think it's just really important to think about what makes you, you know, tick and what fuels you.

00:37:21:12 - 00:37:37:18
Alison
Great advice to you both. And thank you very much for being here in person today. Thoroughly enjoyed with the conversation, and I want to thank everyone for joining us in our audience today. And hundreds of marketers from across the country who are joining us in making our third ever CMA Connect Live podcast a success. With that, I will turn it back to Esther.

00:37:37:19 - 00:37:42:21
Alison
Thank you

00:37:42:23 - 00:37:55:13
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CM Makkah and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, outgoing President and CEO of the CMA, sits down with Esther Benzie, the newly appointed President and CEO of the CMA, to discuss the leadership transition and the future of Canada's marketing profession. Esther shares insights from her 30-year career at P&G, CIBC and the Association of Canadian Advertisers and reveals why the opportunity to help marketing "regain its swagger" made accepting this role a resounding yes. The discussion covers groundbreaking data from the CMA Marketing Impact Study, which proves marketing's $130.9 billion economic contribution, and previews the third annual CMA Marketing Week, expanding nationally from Toronto and Vancouver to Montreal.

00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23.640 — 00:02:43.890 · Alison
Leadership transitions are really rare moments that can reveal what an organization truly values. Today's episode is one of those amazing moments. So after announcing my retirement plans last September, the CMA Board of Directors launched a very thoughtful search to find the leader who could really build on our association's strong momentum.

That search, I'm happy to say, led them to Esther Benzie, and I absolutely could not be more excited about what that means for Canadian marketers. Over the past few years, the CMA team has accomplished a lot together. We've got a lot to be proud of. Our membership has grown to over 460 organizations, we have welcomed more than 100 new members since 2023, and the number of chartered marketers has more than doubled.

We also launched the CMA Marketing Week, which has become a national gathering drawing thousands of marketers and earned best in class satisfaction ratings last year, and through the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, we have upscaled more than 2100 marketers from underrepresented groups across the country and supported 700 SMEs with top marketing talent.

Those are just a few examples. So clearly the foundation is very strong and now it's about building on that great momentum. That's why Esther was the right choice. She brings over 30 years of marketing leadership, starting with Procter and Gamble, where she built her expertise in brand building and consumer insights.

She then went on to lead transformational work as Vice President of Brand and Advertising at CIBC, leading the relaunch of their CIBC brand and the Ambitions Made Real platform. Esther also brings association experience from her time as Acting President and CEO of the Association of Canadian Advertisers, which gives her a really practical understanding of what it takes to serve a membership organization.

Esther officially started on March 9th and has absolutely hit the ground running. In her first few weeks, she unveiled her groundbreaking research that quantifies, for the first time ever, the massive economic impact marketing has on Canada. The numbers are staggering and give every marketer in this country the data they need to really further prove our strategic value.

I'm supporting Esther through the end of May to ensure a seamless transition, so this conversation feels particularly special. We'll talk about why she wanted the role, what she's learned in her first 60 days, the powerful findings from the CMA Marketing Impact study, and what's ahead as we head into the third annual CMA Marketing Week next week.

Esther, welcome to CMA Connect. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

00:02:44.050 — 00:02:55.610 · Esther
Thank you so much, Alison. Transitioning alongside you these past weeks has been amazing, and it's great to see the incredible position that you're leaving the CMA in.

00:02:55.730 — 00:03:21.070 · Alison
Well thank you. It's absolutely been a team effort with everyone at the CMA and our absolutely incredible Membership and Board. Esther, in my intro, I shared a bit about the incredible career that you've had, leading marketing for some of the world's most recognized brands and also working on the service provider side of our profession.

So I know our listeners will want to learn what attracted you to the CMA and why does leading Canada's largest marketing association feel like the right next chapter for you?

00:03:21.110 — 00:06:13.220 · Esther
When I first saw this opportunity, everything just clicked. As I said in one of my interviews on the announcement, it just felt like a really easy "yes" for me. This job brought together my 30 years of building brands, of understanding consumers, of leading teams through transformation. At my P&G experience, I did learn the discipline of brand building.

There, it was all about getting to know the consumer and understanding them, the power of strategy, making really good choices and understanding what you were trying to communicate, as well as the importance of execution and really being thoughtful on what you were executing in the market. And we described it as "the who, the what and the how" in some ways.

But it was an important legacy for me. And I took that experience to CIBC. As you mentioned in the intro, a big project I had there was modernizing the brand through the restage that touched all 55,000 employees and 8 million clients globally. So I believe that the experiences I've had in those big brands, as well as through my consulting, brought together my love of all aspects of marketing and delivering on consumer needs, driving business growth.

So when I heard about this job, there were actually a couple of signs that made this the right next chapter, which I don't even know if I've told you all of them. Alison. The first was last summer. I was speaking to a colleague and I was telling her that my daughter had a summer job in advertising at an ad agency, and she was a VP of Marketing herself, and she said, "Wow, do you really want her to get into marketing?"

Like, and she said it like it was something that we shouldn't be encouraging our, our young people to get into. And it made me realize that our profession had an opportunity to regain its swagger. And, you know, at the same time, I was hearing consulting clients and reading about marketing and hearing about all the challenges that they were facing and how they wanted to have a greater impact in the C-suite, and how to think about AI and how to do more with less.

And, you know, you wrap that with all the news that was coming about the tariffs and political uncertainty and the need for Canada to be more productive and more innovative, and all that led me to say, wow, you know, we need to get that credibility back, that pride back. And it felt like our profession had been in a bit of a fight for its seat at the table.

And so when I saw the CMA opportunity, that this was so much of the belief of the CMA, it just really felt like the right place to be to be able to have an impact on all those areas.

00:06:13.260 — 00:07:07.640 · Alison
You hadn't shared the story about your daughter's experience before. It's great that she was excited about advertising. It's disappointing that your friend in the profession wasn't advocating on our behalf. And you're so right that getting our swagger back, being more proud and not being the typical humble Canadians.

Being much more proud about what we as a profession deliver to our country's ability to innovate, to businesses and brands' ability to grow. We make tangible, mission critical changes and impacts to our country's GDP, to business growth, brand growth, and certainly to social enterprises as well. And a little bit later in the episode, we'll get into the marketing impact study, but that provides some really important fuel for everyone in our profession to walk a little taller and to really be able to advocate on how mission critical marketing is in Canada.

00:07:07.720 — 00:07:26.680 · Esther
Yeah, to be honest, I think my friend's comment was as much a reflection of just a bit of jadedness that people are feeling because a lot of marketers are being asked to do so much more than they were before. And so I think it was a little bit of that. And the fun fact is, her daughter is now going to work in an ad agency this summer too.

So maybe I convinced her.

00:07:27.200 — 00:07:27.960 · Alison
Well done.

00:07:27.960 — 00:07:47.760 · Esther
But, you know, it was just a bit surprising at first. We think of ourselves as being such big advocates. You and I have both had long careers in marketing and have really loved it. And, you know, I wish that for the future generation as well, to have that kind of passion for what we do. Because in my mind, it's such an interesting career.

00:07:48.000 — 00:08:27.790 · Alison
I couldn't agree more and I am going to encourage you and our listeners for the interactions I have with younger marketers in our profession. We have an Aim Advisory board that brings together 15 junior marketers across our profession and our member network, and they are so talented. They are so committed.

They are absolutely passionate about their role in the importance of marketing. So I do think the future is bright, and maybe some of us older will become a little bit more jaded. Thankfully, the younger generations have not. 

00:08:19 - Esther
That's great, I agree. 

Alison
We've shared a bit about this, but how else has your experience shaped your thinking about what the CMA should be doing for its members?

00:08:27.830 — 00:11:17.450 · Esther
Well, my experience in previous roles was in companies that really reflect our member base. So I had client side experience at a multinational and a Canadian-based company. As you mentioned, I worked at an association and I've been a vendor as well. And so I think those experiences have really shaped how I think about member value and what members are looking for when they join the association.

So when I was the member, I valued community, I valued thought leadership, and I always felt like the CMA was a bit of a signal through the noise. There was so much information coming at me constantly, and I found the CMA so helpful in providing resources and that community of marketers that I could speak to about all my issues.

So that was my experience as a member. I think with the association, what I saw was a bit of those inner workings of the association and that it's such a tough balance, and I commend you for doing it for the last few years, of being able to serve such diverse member needs while staying relevant, and the importance of the advocacy work that happens behind the scenes.

And I think what both those experiences taught me is as an association, the CMA needs to operate at multiple altitudes simultaneously for different audiences, you know. But by that, I mean we're day to day with practical resources, right? Whether it's our AI playbooks or some of our certificate courses or some of our how to guides.

But we also need to be 3000ft and thinking in the future when we think of influencing policy and, you know, some of the research that has been identified and all that we have to do to to maintain the ethical standards of marketing. So I think all those experiences help me realize that while we have three great pillars of community influence and standards of excellence, different people from our member organizations need different levels of support.

00:10:42 - Esther
And whether that's, you know, somebody who's a junior marketer or a CMO, they need different levels of support at different points in their career, and I think the CMA does an amazing job of delivering against that. I just want us to be that indispensable partner that makes every Canadian marketer more effective, more confident and offer more value to their organization, because that's what's going to keep us as an association, thriving, as well as keeping marketing as a profession thriving.

00:11:17.850 — 00:11:31.410 · Alison
I couldn't agree more on being almost four years in the role. One thing I can vouch for is it's an incredibly exciting role. Time flies by and you will never, ever be bored. Coming up on 60 days, you're already sensing that.

00:11:31.410 — 00:11:53.200 · Esther
I'm already sensing that. And it's so fun to get out. And yes, we spent a lot of time talking and listening to our members and what their needs are. And there's just so much energy out there for the profession and a desire to have an impact. And it's  been just really, really exciting to hear it all.

00:11:53.240 — 00:12:13.320 · Alison
And those conversations really fuel where we can identify areas that we can improve upon, where we see gaps that we can help fill from a profession's perspective as well. So building on that, you're almost at your first 60 days with the CMA. What have been some of your biggest observations or surprises that you've gotten about the Association and our Members so far?

00:12:13.440 — 00:14:11.200 · Esther
Well, these first few weeks have been and they've been so exciting in the best possible way. I would say my biggest observation is just how much of a genuine connection people have for the CMA, and how invested they all are in its success and in marketing success. And it's true of our staff, our Members, our Chartered Marketers, and even our Board.

You know, as you know, I since I arrived, I met with every employee and they they speak so highly of the culture that has been created And a lot of that is a tribute to you, Alison, and the and the leadership team. When I got appointed, I received so many unsolicited notes from members, and all the comments just made me realize how important the CMA has been to them.

And I know I shared some of them with you, but just some really beautiful remarks about how important the CMA is and how passionate they are, how when they have to make choices on their time, this is where they want to spend it. And I think that's been a real surprise. And it's true. I was at an event today, and I got comments about how much our members value the community and connections.

So, you know, I think it's throughout those different groups, we hear it and and even when we talk to our Board, who are some of Canada's top senior marketing leaders, they're choosing to give up their precious volunteer time to work with us because they believe in the mission and the need to future-proof the profession so strongly.

So I think that's been the biggest surprise. It's just that collective pride and passion that I see throughout the different stakeholders. And it's really not something you can manufacture. It's the result of years of the CMA showing up consistently.

00:14:11.760 — 00:14:31.680 · Alison
So incredibly gratifying to hear. The team has worked and continues to work incredibly hard. And our goal is to achieve exactly what you have described. So to hear that you are getting that unprompted feedback across the membership is very, very much appreciated. So thank you and thank you to the members for reaching out.

00:14:31.720 — 00:14:59.390 · Esther
And I hope that they continue to reach out. I know that for me, that's such a great learning. We talked to some of our Chartered Marketers yesterday and the feedback from them was incredible. I loved hearing things like, I'm in more rooms now. I'm a part of more conversations because I'm a Chartered Marketer, or I've now had the ability to get a promotion or a raise because I had my Charter Marketer.

I mean, those that level of pride is pretty amazing.

00:14:59.550 — 00:15:14.470 · Alison
And the doors and opportunities that's opening as Canada's only professional marketing designation is resonating, which is great to hear. So I know it's still early days, but as you look ahead, what's a new opportunity or priority that you've identified that you think we should be tackling?

00:15:14.470 — 00:17:44.900 · Esther
So I've been thinking about this a lot from my listening and learning tour, and as I'm still listening, this will continue to evolve. But the opportunity I see right now is reaching more marketers across Canada. Uh, you know, the study that S  ignal 49 conducted showing the marketing impact in Canada, it revealed that more than 861,000 jobs in this country are marketing jobs.

So that's 1 in 25. And the CMA is the largest marketing association. And yet our members only represent about 40,000 marketers. That's just 5% of the entire community. And as much as we advocate and have impact on the broader community, even if they're not a member, uh, I still think there's a huge upside to be that catalyst to help marketers thrive today and in the future by increasing our presence across the country and having an impact on more marketers so that they can benefit from all the amazing work that the CMA is doing.

Just to give you a couple of examples, within the recent Ipsos survey that suggested only about a third of marketers have any formal training, we have the Chartered Marketer program, digital certificates, a robust learning plan. Those are all things that all marketers should take advantage of, and I want  more members to be able to see that there's a new privacy bill this summer, and we need to represent business and consumer in the ethical use of data and AI.

That's another place where we can have such a huge impact. And finally, marketers tell us how much they want to connect with each other. And we have events, councils and committees where that sharing can happen. So there's a huge opportunity for us to reach more marketers across Canada. Have every CMO walk into their boardroom with data that proves marketing is an economic growth engine, and that we have every young marketer seeing that they have a clear path to professional growth, and that we have every business seeing that great marketing is a core growth driver.

00:17:45.300 — 00:18:03.140 · Alison
You've identified such an important area with every new member organization that joins, it means we can do even more to advance and represent the marketing profession. And it also means that even more marketers are going to be benefiting from everything that we're already doing. So I love that as a one of your early priorities.

00:18:03.260 — 00:18:29.780 · Esther
Yeah. And, you know, as the study showed, like there's so many marketers outside of Ontario and in other communities. And, you know, I was amazed by the stat that we have Chartered Marketers in every province and territory. And so we know that the great work that the CMA is doing can touch the Canadian economy across the board.

And I think that's a that's an exciting opportunity.

00:18:30.060 — 00:19:25.200 · Alison
Absolutely. Now you've mentioned a bit about the marketing impact study, and I'd love to dig into that even more deeply. I know our listeners are definitely going to be interested. So we announced the study shortly after you joined in March, and it was a partnership between the CMA and the Conference Board of Canada, which is now known as Signal 49, and this was the first comprehensive look at marketing's economic contribution to Canada.

And as I mentioned in the opening, the findings are so incredibly important and compelling. So marketing activity generated 130.9 billion in GDP in 2024, which means marketing is rivalling sectors like retail trade, oil and gas. And that's often not the understanding. So to now have the data to back that up is really important.

So as the voice of this research to the media and our members, why do you think the study matters so much for our profession?

00:19:25.240 — 00:21:06.530 · Esther
Well, Alison, you mentioned some of the key stats, but I think the first piece of the report is, it's so validating for all of our marketers, right? Because it demonstrates not only do we have that economic impact, that we represent 4.6% of our of our national GDP. Um, you know, I mentioned the 1 in 25 jobs. Those are those are stats that can help us work with policymakers and the government to demonstrate the value that we are having as a profession.

But I think the other pieces that are important in this are some of the predictive, performance oriented parts of the conversation. You know, for decades, marketers feel like we've been on the defensive, right? You know, we're a cost. We need to defend that. We're actually growing the business. What this does is it flips the script.

It shows that we are a mission critical part of the Canadian economy, and that we are a growth engine for businesses. And I loved all the stats in that report that showed that if you have stronger brand strategies, you're going to deliver higher sales, or if you have better marketing, you're going to get better profit.

I mean, there's just a lot in there that really showed that great marketing delivers great business results, and I think it gives us the right to be at the table and have the discussions on how we're going to innovate and grow the business so that Canada benefits.

00:21:06.970 — 00:21:42.670 · Alison
You're so right. And you and I share a passion of how important marketing is as a powerful driver of business performance across the country. We know the organizations that invest in strong brand and marketing consistently outperform their peers. You talked about delivering higher sales, stronger operating income, and certainly greater resilience during periods of economic uncertainty.

We will certainly include a link to the full report in the podcast notes, but I know our listeners would love it if you could share a couple of the data points that really bring to life what a powerful driver of business performance marketing is in Canada.

00:21:42.710 — 00:22:36.350 · Esther
Certainly within that study, some of the performance evidence was those companies that had award winning marketing saw 48% more in operating income. They saw 37% more in sales growth. I mean, that's some really great results. There was also information around the impact of personalization as well as the impact of loyalty programs.

So all of those are within the study. Companies that were the top brands in Canada grew by 10%, whereas GDP growth was 1.3%. So top brands outperformed GDP growth. So there were some really amazing statistics within the study that just demonstrated the performance evidence that we need to be able to have those discussions at the C-suite.

00:22:36.390 — 00:23:06.290 · Alison
That's great, Esther, thank you very much for sharing. I know that our listeners will be even more intrigued to take the time to read through more of the details that they can find in the full study. Now we're just days away from our third annual CMA Marketing Week, which kicks off on May 4th and runs through the eighth.

And this was one of the initiatives that I launched when I was leading the CMA, and I'm super excited to see how it's evolved. This year's theme is Marketing Through the Lens of Tomorrow, and I'd love you to share. What are some of the highlights that you're most looking forward to?

00:23:06.370 — 00:25:12.940 · Esther
Well, the energy for Marketing Week is certainly high. And what I love about what the team has done this year is the fact that we've really leaned in to make it truly national. So we'll be in Montreal for the first time on May 5th. The flagship CMA Future Proof is in Toronto on May 6th, and we're going into Vancouver on May 7th.

So each city is getting programming that reflects their unique marketing community. Yet it's all tied together under the theme of Marketing Through the Lens of Tomorrow. So there's going to be some great speakers. There's going to be some amazing panels. Just to give you a little bit of a flavour. In Montreal, there's going to be The Creative Autopsy: Learning What Didn't Land, which I think will be really interesting because we don't talk about failures as much. 

In Toronto, I'm really looking forward to hearing Tucker Bryant. He's a professional poet and innovation strategist, and he's worked with Stanford, he's worked with Google. And his keynote is called Using the Poets Perspective to Help Leaders Rethink Innovation. And if you think about where we're at now, where we've got so much data and AI and process and everything else, I think having someone who can remind us about the power of language and human insight is going to be really refreshing.

And then in Vancouver, we have Jill Schnarr from Telus, and I was actually speaking to a Telus member at an event today, and they were telling me about Jill and her experience and she's just going to be fantastic. So all those speakers will be amazing as well as the different breakouts. I think what also makes our events really special is just the conversations that happen throughout the day.

And you know, I know when I was a member coming to the events, that's what I really enjoyed as well, is just the chance to catch up with peers, to talk about my challenges, to have other people share what they were experiencing. There's real magic in that.

00:25:12.980 — 00:25:30.380 · Alison
Absolutely. So now I'm going to switch gears a little bit, and I have a few questions around your leadership philosophy and vision. So throughout your career, you've led some major initiatives and stepped into certainly new leadership roles. So what's your approach to building on existing momentum while you're still pushing an organization forward?

00:25:30.420 — 00:27:45.930 · Esther
You know, it's a it's a great question and it's an interesting view because it's it's actually how I went in to interviewing for this job was to think about what were we doing really, really well as an association. And when the Board asked me about where we should go in the future, I started with where we were and how well we had done in certain areas.

And I think that that the key is honouring what's working while staying curious about what could be better. And I believe that you don't want to tear down a really strong foundation. You build on it strategically. So, you know, I spent a lot of my first weeks really listening and talking to people and asking what they loved and what they were happy with and why were they happy with different elements.

And I think that's giving me a good sense of what are the things that you absolutely can't change and don't want to change. And what I discovered were things like the practical training, the advocacy that we do, the community building, all of these pillars were worth protecting. You know, as we've talked on building on momentum, as I've mentioned, I want to scale the impact.

And I think there's that opportunity both with the 1 in 25 marketers around the country as well as within our member organizations. I think we have an opportunity to make sure that everyone within an organization knows about the CMA and knows what they can do. Um, so I think that's an important piece.

So all those are are areas to to build on existing momentum. We got to listen. And we've got to keep the things that people love while also looking for those places where there's opportunity to, to do even more. The final comment I'd make on change is that it's going to be really important to bring everyone else along on the journey, and change can happen when the teams feel ownership and excitement.

So that's going to be really important with any changes and builds that we make at the CMA, is making sure that all of our stakeholders feel like they're a part of it too. So I'm definitely excited to invite input to explain what I'm thinking, to get builds, to change, to evolve as we go along.

00:27:45.970 — 00:27:58.970 · Alison
That's great. I love the highly collaborative approach. It will definitely pay off in spades. Now, you also have been deeply committed to leadership development throughout your career. So how does that commitment show up in your vision for the CMA and in supporting Canadian marketers?

00:27:59.010 — 00:29:55.490 · Esther
So from a leadership development standpoint, leadership has been really central to my career. I think at P&G, it was a core part of how we were evaluated as leaders, how we developed others. At CIBC, I also spent a lot of time mentoring emerging leaders, and was struck by how much people wanted to have honest conversations about what leadership looked like there.

We used to talk about leadership, as you know, the importance of envisioning, of inspiring, of driving, of all those skills and post CIBC, leadership development has been so important to me. I actually trained as an executive coach, which was really helpful in identifying how people can build their own leadership by asking those right questions and helping them explore the systems that they're operating in and the systems that influence us as a coach. 

You know, but I think the CMA is uniquely positioned in terms of marketing leadership. We can create learning experiences that build capability. And we have programs where marketers are working through real challenges together, right, through things like the Chartered Marketer program, where you've got more of that approach of, you know, a lot of people were talking about their capstone projects.

We have leadership capability through our mentorship and matching. And I think that's a really important piece of marketing leadership as well. You know, I want the CMA to deliver great marketing leadership, thinking and training. But I also want us to model great leadership. And I think you've done that really well in building the team.

You know, we've got to be a great place to work. We've got to invest in our team's development and we've got to be, you know, the best possible leaders that we can be.

00:29:55.650 — 00:30:15.330 · Alison
Well said. Now before becoming our new President and CEO, you were absolutely an engaged CMA member. So what would you recommend for the marketing professionals who are listening, who really want to make the most of what the CMA has to offer and to really stay ahead in our never-sleeping, always rapidly-evolving profession.

00:30:15.370 — 00:31:16.400 · Esther
You know, there's so many people have said this, but the more you put into the CMA, the more you get out of the CMA. So I want every marketer to feel that we're here for them and that no matter where they are in the country, no matter where they are in their career journey and no matter what industry they're in.

But the people who get the most out of it are those who get involved beyond just consuming content. So we have amazing content and absolutely we want people to use that. But we also want people to come to events like Marketing Week, to join a CMA Council and Committee so that they can talk to their peers and get that benefit.

And I think the value compounds when you actively engage. So for me, I was a Chartered Marketer, I was a judge on marketing awards. I joined a council, I came to lots of events, and each of those brought different pieces of the CMA value to me. And I think that that's what's really important for people.

00:31:16.880 — 00:31:28.320 · Alison
I absolutely agree. So before I let you get on with what I know is a very busy day, I would love you to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:31:28.680 — 00:31:29.119 · Esther
Ha ha ha

00:31:30.240 — 00:32:38.920 · Esther
When I think of my career, I think of three things that have stayed true for me throughout that career, and that is to stay curious, to really remain a strong critical thinker, and the last is to build a community. I was never somebody who was motivated by level or prestige, but rather the choices I made in career were all about learning and where I could go to keep learning.

And probably the moments of greatest growth were when I took on something new and unexpected and a little bit different. So that would be my advice for anyone else is just stay curious and recognize that you have to think more and more critically in our AI-driven world, but also you need people on your side.

You need a community around you to keep you grounded, to keep you connected, to be your champions, your Board of Directors. And so those are the things that I've lived by in my career.

00:32:39.280 — 00:32:58.520 · Alison
That is absolutely great advice. Esther, I have really enjoyed our conversation, and I'm super excited to see how the CMA is going to build on our strong momentum under your leadership. And I'm also really looking forward to celebrating your and the team's many successes in the months and years ahead.

So thank you from the bottom of my heart for joining me on CMA Connect.

00:32:58.560 — 00:33:30.270 · Esther
Well, thank you, Alison. This has been more fun than I expected. And I wanted to just say publicly what I've said to you privately. You're leaving the CMA in an incredible position, and I feel really honoured to be building on your legacy. And thank you for all of your support as we have been going through this transition.

I know that the CMA is going to continue to flourish based on the foundation that you have built. So thank you.

00:33:30.310 — 00:33:53.550 · Alison
It has absolutely been a highlight of my career. And it's never one person. This is very much been a team effort with our talented CMA team, with our very engaged Boards and with our membership, who really make us more scalable and able to accomplish so much more for the marketing profession and marketers across the country.

So I look forward to seeing where you take the CMA next.

00:33:53.590 — 00:34:04.510 · Esther
Great. And to everyone listening, come out and say hi at CMA Marketing Week and send me feedback. I really want to hear what we can do to make Canadian marketing even stronger.

00:34:07.270 — 00:34:20.270 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

What have you learned that has allowed you to adapt and evolve in your marketing career? In today's episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, sits down virtually with Lindsay Chase, Senior Strategist at Elemental, to explore her nine year journey at Elemental. They dive into her progression from Account Executive to Senior Strategist, her loyalty to her craft, her adaptability, and her pursuit of what truly matters. 

00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23.520 — 00:02:20.140 · Alison
For today's episode, I am thrilled to welcome Lindsay Chase, Senior Strategist at Elemental and our 2025 CMA AIM Award winner. The AIM Award celebrates achievement of marketing by a rising star in our profession, who is absolutely destined for great leadership roles. Lindsay's speech at the CMA Awards show was equal parts inspiring, entertaining and compelling, and I know that our conversation will be that as well.

Lindsay's journey into marketing began with a background in English literature. She was drawn by what she describes as the fascinating blend of creativity meeting science that defines modern marketing. She's passionate about delivering strong business results through compelling storytelling, creating human narratives that really resonate in meaningful ways.

Lindsay describes her nine year tenure at Elemental as making her a bit of a unicorn in today's agency world, and I absolutely agree for a much longer tenure in one agency than is typically the case, since most people switch about every two years instead of taking that approach. Lindsay has built her career elemental, progressing from account executive to senior strategist.

Her insights into how her generation is learning and developing skills offers a really fascinating window into the future of marketing careers. Like all of us, Lindsay is experiencing firsthand how AI has begun reshaping marketing practices, making them more uniform, scalable, and streamlined, while also raising critical questions about skill development and strategic thinking.

Her perspective on the importance of mentorship in a rapidly changing landscape, as well as how to maintain strategic thinking in an increasingly automated world, makes this conversation as essential listening for anyone interested in marketing's future. And I can also share with our listeners that when you listen to Lindsay, by the end of this conversation, like me, you will feel very, very positive and optimistic about how bright our future marketing is with talented marketers like Lindsay rising through the ranks.

So welcome, Lindsay. It is absolutely wonderful to have you join us on CMA Connect.

00:02:20.180 — 00:02:25.140 · Lindsay
Thank you Alison, it's wonderful to be here. And I'm looking very forward to our conversation today.

00:02:25.260 — 00:02:36.020 · Alison
Let's start with your story. I'd love to hear what drew you to marketing, and how did you see this as an opportunity to really transform your English literature degree and love of stories into a career?

00:02:36.180 — 00:03:22.820 · Lindsay
Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I tend to start with saying I didn't choose marketing because I loved ads. I feel very few people maybe do make that choice for that reason. I actually chose it because I've always loved stories. And marketing is where stories can really change outcomes in English Lit.

I learned how to read between the lines subtext. Motivation. Character tension. the gap between what people say and what they mean. So that to me was basically consumer insight in a lot of ways. And marketing gave me a way to take that skill and kind of apply it to real people, real decisions and real businesses.

It's effectively storytelling with consequences. So all of that to say, what definitely drew me in is a mix of that empathy and structure, and you can really feel something and prove it in marketing.

00:03:22.860 — 00:03:48.260 · Alison
I absolutely love your definition of storytelling with consequences and beyond consequences, it's storytelling with an ability to have such a significant and important impact on brands and businesses, our economy, and ultimately our communities. So I love that definition. Thank you. I'm also curious, when you were graduating, was marketing and agency roles in particular a career that many of your fellow graduates were thinking of pursuing?

00:03:48.380 — 00:04:35.790 · Lindsay
Another great question. Certainly a few, but admittedly, many of my peers went into, you know, the worlds of tech, finance, law adjacent paths and so on. I found that in discussions with them, agency life wasn't necessarily the obvious route. Marketing can definitely feel like a less defined path, and that ambiguity can be intimidating when you're graduating and everyone's asking, what are you going to do?

And you want to have that very kind of clear answer ideally. I also think a lot of people don't realize that marketing is a training ground. You get exposure to categories, audiences, channels, leadership styles and real business problems very quickly. So it's certainly an area that, you know, though sometimes maybe discounted is one very much worth its salt.

And I hope that more, more folks explore when they are looking at that graduation period in their life.

00:04:35.830 — 00:04:40.990 · Alison
Now, I'd also love to hear what it meant to you to be recognized with the CMA AIM Award.

00:04:41.030 — 00:05:44.880 · Lindsay
Yeah, that was a great honour and even better evening and congrats to the CMA for making it such a fun and impactful evening. But to me, I'd say the CMA Award was never just an individual recognition in reference to the speech I gave. If no one's sick of hearing it at this point, you know, I referenced the idea that if I've seen further, it's because I've stood on the shoulders of giants and that's genuinely how I view it.

Any progress I've made has been shaped by the people around me, and that goes multifold. For the mentors who pushed my thinking, the teammates who challenged my ideas and the clients that trusted the process. And that's really what the industry is at its best, is that collective effort to make something better than any one person could on their own.

So in reflection of the award, it certainly felt like that, you know, not just the work, but the environment that makes the work possible. And the CMA, to me represents that spirit of creativity, collaboration and a shared standard of excellence. So it was a great honour and great excitement for myself and all those that I got to celebrate with.

00:05:45.120 — 00:06:24.840 · Alison
It was definitely a good celebration and certainly a well deserved celebration. Now, Lindsay, you mentioned that marketing wasn't the most popular choice among your peers, in large part because it really can be pretty overwhelming for students to understand what marketing roles are, given the breadth and certainly complexity of our profession.

Obviously, from a CMA perspective, from a professional perspective, we do want to be a desired destination for students in the months and years ahead. So what do you think we can do to help the next generation better understand and navigate this complexity and make more competitive and desirable on par with tech and finance when it comes to talent?

00:06:25.120 — 00:07:29.450 · Lindsay
I think we have to stop explaining marketing like it's a list of job titles. You know, it's more of a system overall. And the best way to maybe demystify it is to teach some of those fundamentals - human behaviour, business strategy, creative problem solving, and the measurement of all those things.

Once you can get a grasp on those four pillars, every specialization becomes less overwhelming, especially to those who maybe don't have the full visibility or insight. And when it comes to tech and finance, you know, specifically, I find that they can sell certainty, you know. Clear ladders, clear compensation narratives, prestige signals.

You know, all the things that go into that. And I think where marketing can expand is by selling its impact. You know, you get to shape culture and build brands that people live with and drive real business outcomes, just like tech and finance can. So if we want that talent and future marketers to walk through our doors, I think we need to show that marketing is certainly anything but fluff and a great opportunity to build a career and life around.

00:07:29.530 — 00:07:56.770 · Alison
That was so well said, and it's also incredibly timely. We have recently launched the CMA Marketing Impact Study that does exactly that. It quantifies the mission critical role that marketing plays in building Canadian businesses, increasing our country's ability to innovate, and dramatically contributing to our economy and GDP.

So that will give us some very valuable tools to really entice the next generation of talent to.

00:07:56.810 — 00:08:20.940 · Lindsay
Yeah, it's a great effort, and I think the other piece is being willing and ready to have some fun with it. You know, I think of all the ads and jingles and brands that stick in my head as some of my favourites, and it's not just a moment in time. It really does stay with us as we move through our lives, and it's something that everyone hopefully will get more and more clarity around and be interested in.

00:08:21.260 — 00:08:36.780 · Alison
Absolutely. Now, you've been at Elemental for nine years and you started as an account exec, moved to Senior Strategy and calling yourself a bit of a unicorn for how long you've been with one agency. So what's kept you engaged for nine years, and why have you chosen this less traditional approach?

00:08:36.820 — 00:09:44.350 · Lindsay
I stayed with Elemental through many different roles and seasons of it, because I ultimately kept getting new problems to solve and people that I worked with, I really wanted to solve those problems with. You know, the work changes, the clients change, the ambitions change. And that's one of the most appealing things about marketing on a whole is no one day looks the same, so I never felt like I was repeating a year.

It also certainly helped that Elemental is the kind of place where you can be multidimensional. I didn't have to pick one identity early, and I think why that really worked for me is I didn't chase a title as much as I chased the skill stack. I wanted to understand the whole machine, not just one part of it.

And that's kind of what made the less traditional or unicorn path, for lack of a better phrase, something that made sense for me. I could connect the dots across, you know, account leadership to creative and strategy and just work with wonderful humans all along the way, so that that was something that was important to me in my personal growth, was understanding that it's not just that title, it really is about that personal development and professional development as you move through day to day and week to week.

00:09:44.390 — 00:10:25.280 · Alison
It's such a smart approach to build your marketing toolkit, but more importantly, to build your ability to evolve and be curious and learn new skills. That's always been so important to a successful career in marketing. And when we look at the dramatic change AI and elsewhere is bringing to not just marketing but the world at large, the ability to pivot and be comfortable with ambiguity and be open to change will serve you very well in the years ahead too. 

Now, you chose marketing for the blend of creativity meets science and the important role it has in building business. So let me hear a bit about the work that you're proudest of and the impact that it's had.

00:10:25.520 — 00:11:59.170 · CHECK THIS SECTION
Yeah, I'll start higher level in that, you know, overall, I'm most proud of work that connects emotionally and  drives the outcomes that we've all set out to achieve together. One without the other, to me, means we didn't really hit the nail on the head. So overarching certainly the work that kind of connects those two paths.

And then as far as specific work, you know, I was reflecting the other day on some work we did for Meridian and we launched a campaign called World of Numbers, which was very exciting because it really did reframe a traditional kind of transactional category of FI into something human and relatable, helping us kind of differentiate the brand and strengthen engagement.

A similar answer goes for some of the work we do with Canada Life. Um, Life Doesn't Move in a Straight Line, really just capturing that human insight and truth that no matter who you are, the differences and similarities can be there. But you know, it does look different for every Canadian. So making a brand feel a little bit more empathetic and relevant, especially in these, uh, wild and fast times, is certainly some of the work I'm very proud of and in both cases didn't just resonate creatively, it helped shift perception and build a stronger connection with their audiences.

We saw amazing brand lift, not to distill it all down to one KPI, but, um, I'm excited to continue kind of measuring that growth and working through unique challenges like that for clients that are trying to understand how do we show that we understand the Canadian consumer in a time where everything can feel quite overwhelming.

00:11:59.250 — 00:12:10.610 · Alison
Now, some of my most powerful learning has come from the mistakes I've made along the way. So do you have a lesson that you've learned the hard way, that you'd be open to sharing? And hopefully by sharing, spare someone else from making the same mistake?

00:12:10.770 — 00:13:06.380 · Lindsay
Where to start? There have been many lessons along the way. I think I would prioritize probably two for the next generation of marketers, because it's something that you certainly learn the hard way, I would say in every instance. But I'll start with I learned that a smart strategy can still fail if it's too complex to activate.

So while you may have this, you know, wonderful and compelling idea, if you cannot translate that to execution, it doesn't really matter how wonderful that strategy appeals. So that would be number one. And then I'd say number two, learning to kill ideas that I loved if they weren't true to the audience, you know. In marketing and advertising, we love all of our children.

But it often comes down to what is going to resonate with our target audience, and bearing them in mind and not carrying any personal biases through the process is always a good reminder to those starting out their careers.

00:13:06.420 — 00:13:20.380 · Alison
Those are such great lessons learned, Lindsay, thank you very much for sharing. Now, I know from our conversations that mentorship is hugely important to you and crucial to helping build future marketing leaders as well. So how have you been fitted for mentorship so far in your career?

00:13:20.580 — 00:14:17.110 · Lindsay
Mentorship, I would say, is one of the most important facets of marketing, certainly, but really any  industry that somebody could be entering. It really helped me build confidence faster than I ever could have alone. I've said, you know, internally to some of my mentors themselves, you know, that I'm very thankful for the fact that they gave me language for what I was sensing but couldn't necessarily articulate yet.

And the right mentor doesn't just give answers. They teach you how to think, how to frame a problem, and how to hold your own in rooms you haven't necessarily earned on paper yet. Um, so I've benefited from working with some fantastic people along the way. You know, Dustin Brown, Debbie Bolton and so on.

So I just feel incredibly blessed to have had that opportunity. And I think mentorship is certainly a cornerstone of marketing, and that more and more folks should look for opportunities to mentor and be a mentee.

00:14:17.350 — 00:14:40.870 · Alison
Now, I've had great mentors, and I've also really enjoyed being a mentor, and I joked with many of my mentees that I actually probably learned more from them than they learned from me. With our industry evolving so rapidly, that's even more true. Senior marketers are learning alongside junior colleagues to a greater degree than ever before.

So how do you think that might change the mentor and mentee relationship?

00:14:40.950 — 00:15:37.030 · Lindsay
Yeah, it's a great question. I think, you know, the traditional perspective of mentorship and mentee relationships is that there's certainly more of a hierarchy there. Maybe, you know, a mentee is there more to listen, versus the mentor is there more to instruct? And to your point, Alison, I think where we are today, mentorship is much more collaborative.

You know, juniors might be faster at certain tools, whereas seniors might be stronger at judgment and taste. And I find that the best new mentor relationships are less top down and more, for lack of a better phrase, copilots. You know, you trade strengths and seniors help with some of those decision making frameworks, while juniors can help with new workflows and platform fluency.

I swear every other day a new platform emerges. But it really helps keep everybody humble and there are  information gaps for all of us. And I think having the self-awareness to address that does really lead to pushing everybody forward and all boats rising.

00:15:37.470 — 00:15:50.430 · Alison
I love your concept of copilots versus mentor/mentee. We launched our CMA Mentorship Program at the end of last year, and we've got hundreds of people, members engaged and loving it. Maybe we'll think of a rebrand for next year.

00:15:50.470 — 00:15:52.590 · Lindsay
There you go. Free of charge. 

00:15:54.840 — 00:15:58.160 · Alison 
CMA CAO Barry is cringing right now as he listens to this.

00:16:00.600 — 00:16:04.480 · Lindsay
Hopefully not too badly, but yeah. Copilots, you can have it.

00:16:04.520 — 00:16:05.640 · Alison
I love it.

00:16:07.000 — 00:16:16.160 · Alison
So it's no surprise that AI is transforming many professions and certainly ours. So how is your role and daily work evolving as a result of AI?

00:16:16.560 — 00:17:07.650 · Lindsay
Yeah, AI is, you know, well, it's changing everything to  put it plainly. But what I found most is it's changing how quickly we can move from sort of a blank page to first draft in some of our marketing efforts. It's kind of compressing that messy middle, so to speak. You know, when I look at what it's changed for us as an agency and myself in my day to day, it's certainly on some of the pieces, like production, but it's definitely not replacing what matters.

CHECK THIS SECTION
And I tend to say that's sort of the beginning of the journey. The insight, the taste, the strategy and the ability to choose the right direction. You know, AI can offer, here is many different paths that you can take or here are multiple different creative executions. But ultimately it's the marketers and the experts and humans that really keep that ability to choose the right path forward.

00:17:07.689 — 00:17:26.650 · Alison
So, Lindsay, eons ago when I started my career, I learned so much through doing, hands on experience, trial and error, those important teachable moments. With AI starting to take on some of that initial "doing" work, how do you think your generation will learn and develop those fundamental marketing instincts?

00:17:26.890 — 00:18:35.370 · Lindsay 
Yeah, I think it's such a great question, you know, instincts come from consequence a lot of the time. And I think if AI removes some of that grunt work, so to speak, we need to replace it with real reps in judgment. You know, the critiquing, iterating, presenting, defending and learning what holds up in market.

I think ultimately juniors should spend less time formatting and more time thinking, and ideally, even failing sometimes to learn those hard lessons. I remember once, you know, sending out one of my first client emails, stressing over all of the words and still having a typo in it. And those are the things that you certainly carry with you.

So I think it's still about giving that permission to have those opportunities in those moments, even though we have all these tools at our disposal to help streamline things like that. And I think that comes down to more of the in-person meetings. And, you know, the face to face of it all and making sure that we uphold that with the most important regard and allow juniors to shadow and again, fail on their own two feet sometimes, but ultimately, yeah, giving the opportunity and the space for all of that, with AI kind of taking over some of the initial things that you learn through.

00:18:35.490 — 00:19:01.580 · Alison
When you think back to the powerful lessons you shared, that you'd learn the hard way by making mistakes. No one gets through any career, certainly a marketing career, without making our share of mistakes. And it is such powerful learning that we need to certainly make it safe for juniors to continue learning that way as well.

So as someone who's actively adapting to AI's role in marketing, what are the new competencies that you're finding most essential to develop?

00:19:01.620 — 00:19:55.430 · Lindsay
I would say that some of the new competencies are certainly, you know, stay learnable and stay curious and be adaptable to some of those fundamentals. You know, the tools are always going to change. I think, you know, there's a lot of discussion in AI of things are changing so rapidly. And, you know, how do we navigate this?

And I think it honestly comes down to that's kind of always been the way, you know, is it obviously much more topical and moving at a quicker pace? Yes. But you know, you have to stay adaptable to those things and stay hungry about learning new things, the ability to understand people and build value, you know, work on your process and your prompting and stay curious for sure as that landscape changes.

But there's so many opportunities for continued learning, the CMA being a great example of that. Um, so making sure that you're prioritizing that within your career with everything you also have going on?

00:19:55.470 — 00:19:57.510 · Alison
Well, thank you for the CMA shout out too.

00:19:57.710 — 00:20:00.310 · Lindsay
Hey, you're welcome. I truly believe it.

00:20:00.950 — 00:20:16.750 · Alison
Now, one of the ways we all need to prepare for the future is preparing for the reality that there are roles in the future that don't even exist today, that we can't even dream about today, and a lot of roles that we're doing today will no longer exist. So how can we prepare for that?

00:20:17.110 — 00:21:11.280 · Lindsay
A great question. I think one way we can prepare for roles that maybe don't exist today is, again, just doing a bit of a postmortem on ourselves, the industry and the work itself. You know, I think we as dreamers and believers tend to look forward all the time, but it's really important to look backward as well and understand what points of the process could benefit from that optimization, and you know where AI can help streamline some of those pieces demise. What could those potential roles look like? How do we prepare our team for integrating with them is going to be a really important part of the process, and it's kind of that internal reflection I think that will help get everyone there.

I know we've been doing a lot on our end as far as you know, what does an AI security and privacy person look like on our team? So it's really just identifying or trying to identify those moments and preparing and bracing for impact for the future.

00:21:11.560 — 00:21:30.360 · Alison
So, Lindsay, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Before I let you get on with your busy day, I have one final question for you. I think you know, I end each episode by asking my guest to share a piece of career advice. So as someone absolutely destined to be a future marketing leader, what's one piece of advice that you have for our listeners who aspire to become the same?

00:21:30.440 — 00:22:03.170 · Lindsay
This is certainly one of my favourite questions and one of the most difficult to answer, because you want to give multiple different iterations of it. But to simplify it, you know, I would say that probably the advice that I would have is fall in love with the question before you fall in love with the answer.

Great work comes from getting the problem right, more so than anything else, and making sure that you're taking the time to have that curiosity, that passion and interest in people, really, to find out what that question is for you and fall in love with it before you feel like you know the answer already.

00:22:03.650 — 00:22:22.410 · Alison
That was a great answer. And because that was such a great answer, I'm going to throw a random question to you. Sometimes senior marketers, senior leaders, have trouble connecting with and coaching and managing younger generations. So as the younger generation, what advice would you give to people like me in managing you and your peers?

00:22:22.810 — 00:23:04.610 · Lindsay
A great question. I would say probably the way to best relate to the younger generation of marketers is to try and meet them where they are in all of this. You know, it's a human industry, but I think sometimes with how fast everything is moving, we can forget that. So really understanding the overwhelming nature of where they're coming from with all the change and how to navigate AI and all the different pieces that go into it, and speaking to them as a bit of that copilot, um, that we talked about earlier is going to be a great way to help build those relationships long term and kind of minimize how transactional it feels and more personal. Because those, in my experience, have been the best and longest lasting relationships.

00:23:04.730 — 00:23:19.970 · Alison
That is super helpful. I really appreciate it. So Lindsay, this has been an absolute joy. Great insights, great conversation, and absolutely, we have a very, very bright future as a marketing profession in Canada with upcoming leaders like you. So thank you.

00:23:20.010 — 00:23:27.930 · Lindsay
Thank you Alison. I always enjoy a chance to connect and chat all things marketing. So this was a wonderful time to spend with you.

00:23:30.050 — 00:23:43.010 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing  thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Josephine Palumbo, Deputy Commissioner for the Deceptive Marketing Practices Directorate at the Competition Bureau of Canada, to decode Canadian origin claims and emerging fraud threats. Josephine explains the critical distinctions between "Made in Canada" and "Product of Canada," how tariffs impact threshold calculations, and practical guidance for avoiding maple washing. The conversation expands to the Bureau's Fraud Prevention Month focus, including the alarming rise of AI-generated scams using deep fakes to impersonate government officials.

00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22.880 — 00:02:16.740 · Alison
In an era of renewed Canadian patriotism and heightened awareness of global supply chains, consumers are absolutely paying closer attention than ever to where their products are coming from. With ongoing tariff discussions, a growing desire to support domestic industries, Made in Canada and Product of Canada claims have become more than just marketing messages.

They are promises that Canadians absolutely expect businesses to keep. For this episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Josephine Palumbo, Deputy Commissioner for the Deceptive Marketing Practices Directorate at the Competition Bureau of Canada. In her pivotal role, Josephine leads efforts to detect, investigate, and deter false or misleading representations and deceptive marketing practices across Canada.

With over 25 years of experience at the Department of Justice and Competition Bureau, including significant work as Deputy Executive Director and Senior Litigation Counsel. Josephine has been at the forefront of major enforcement actions involving companies like Amazon, Ticketmaster and Volkswagen.

Josephine expertise extends globally. She served as president of the International Consumer Protection and Enforcement Network in 2020, representing Canada among over 65 protection agencies worldwide. Her directorate's mandate includes enforcement under the Competition Act, Consumer Packaging and Labeling Act, the Precious Metals Marketing Act, and Textile Labeling Act, which gives her comprehensive oversight of marketing claims that matter the most to Canadian consumers.

So as we navigate an increasingly complex marketplace where maple washing and misleading origin claims can absolutely undermine consumer trust. Josephine's insights into what constitutes truthful advertising, along with the real world consequences of getting it wrong, have never been more relevant for Canadian marketers, so I am absolutely thrilled to welcome Josephine.

It is a pleasure to host you on CMA Connect, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

00:02:16.780 — 00:02:20.780 · Josephine
I'm so glad to be here, Alison. I'm looking forward to our talk.

00:02:20.940 — 00:02:44.220 · Alison
We're going to cover a lot of hot topics that are crucial and important to marketers in Canada and also Canadians, so I know we will have a rapt audience. So, Josephine, let's start with why Made in Canada and Product of Canada claims matter so much to both consumers and businesses. Obviously, with renewed Canadian patriotism at the forefront of everyone's mind, how does today's environment compare to what you've seen historically?

00:02:44.260 — 00:03:53.790 · Josephine
Well, let me start by saying that in the past, country of origin claims may not have been top of mind for most consumers, but today, Alison, Canadians are far more focused on transparency, on authenticity and knowing where their products truly come from. There are many factors driving this trend today, and I can list some of them, including national pride and that desire to support Canadian made goods.

The commitment to support the Canadian job market and local industry's concerns about the economy and environmental impacts of purchasing decisions, and the belief that Canadian made products are held to higher standards of quality for businesses. I would say honesty and clearly representing product origin builds consumer trust and helps them steer clear of legal complications, which is always a good thing.

On the other hand, misleading claims risk harming consumers, their fair competitors and the wider market and could result in enforcement under the Competition Act and the other relevant legislation when representations are false or misleading.

00:03:53.830 — 00:04:31.240 · Alison 
That's very helpful, and it's really rewarding in many ways to hear that Canadians, and we've seen this in other research too, Canadians through the tariffs, through the challenging political and economic times, are really embracing Made in Canada and wanting to give back to the local businesses and brands and support our local economy as well.

So there's lots of encouraging reasons for the renewed patriotism that's hopefully having a positive impact on Canada's GDP as well. 

Josephine: Absolutely. 

Alison: Now, many people don't realize that there's quite a significant distinction between a Made in Canada claim and a Product of Canada claim. Can you explain the difference and what businesses need to know?

00:04:31.280 — 00:06:27.660 · Josephine
Sure. I would say that the distinctions are significant, and they're clearly laid out in the Competition Bureau's guidelines that have been updated in March of 2025, so last year. So let me start. And it's a little technical. So Product of Canada is what I refer to as the gold standard. It means virtually all, at least 98% of the direct production costs, including input or materials and labor, are from Canada.

This threshold exists to protect consumers from being misled by claims that imply total Canadian origin. On the other side, we have Made in Canada, which indicates that the majority or 51% or more of the direct costs were Canadian, and this type of claim should be accompanied by a qualifying statement, such as Made in Canada from domestic and imported parts to accurately inform consumers.

I should say that both Product of Canada and Made in Canada representations, the product's last substantial transformation occurs in Canada, and that is the product comes into being in Canada. It isn't merely assembled or labeled or packaged here, it is made into something meaningfully new.

And here, Alison, let me just say, for businesses, it's essential to review the cost breakdowns regularly to ensure compliance with these thresholds, especially if sourcing changes are occurring. We at the Competition Bureau, we evaluate these claims based not only on the literal meaning of marketing materials, but also on how consumers might interpret such claims.

So we would be looking at everything like the words,  mix of words, images, illustrations, or even the overall layout. And this is what we call the general impression. So again, it's very important. Clarity and honesty are paramount.

00:06:28.220 — 00:06:39.900 · Alison
One of the newer claims I've seen emerging with renewed Canadian patriotism over the last year and a bit is Packaged in Canada. So when might those claims be considered misleading to consumers?

00:06:39.900 — 00:08:17.840 · Josephine
So Packaged in Canada for us means like a product arrived mostly finished from another country and only its packaging was added locally. This claim, we would say, could be misleading to consumers if not clearly explained. So the Bureau again encourages the use of qualified claims where the information provided is accurate, relevant and useful.

Let me say that the Bureau again, it looks at not only the words, but the whole concept, the general impression created. Sometimes businesses don't realize or understand this and think that as long as they are truthful, that should be good enough and that is not always the case. Again, the general impression has to be taken into consideration.

For example, one case that we litigated, well, we didn't litigate, but we settled this case, and that was in 2016. So the Bureau investigated Moose Knuckles for concerns relating to advertising and labeling of some of its parkas as Made in Canada. And here, Alison, the Bureau found some Moose Knuckle parkas were marketed as Canadian- made, despite being mostly manufactured elsewhere, only with the finishing touches to the jackets being made here in Canada, like adding the trim or the zipper and the snaps, those were done in Canada. 

And with the Competition Bureau, we resolve the matter with the company, who agreed to donate 750,000 over a five year period to Canadian charities, including those providing winter coats to children in need. The company also committed to clearly labeling and advertising, making it explicit when products are made with both Canadian and imported parts.

00:08:17.920 — 00:08:52.770 · Alison
That's a great example that speaks to the importance of being fair and truthful to Canadians and how we're marketing, but also the important consequences that businesses will and should pay when they don't follow the letter of the law. Now, for our listeners, we also have an article that we've written around all of the different Made in Canada, Product of Canada claims that elaborates on some of what Josephine has shared.

So we will add it into our listener notes for anyone that's listening and wants to read more. We'll have the link in our notes. So, Josephine, what are some of the common mistakes you've seen businesses make when they've made origin claims?

00:08:52.770 — 00:09:46.010 · Josephine
So businesses often make mistakes by failing to provide, for example, appropriate qualifying statements using ambiguous language or misunderstanding the threshold requirements that I discussed earlier. A common issue is overstating the Canadian aspect by relying solely on packaging, a minor modifications or last minute assembly that does not meet the threshold for substantial transformation, which I also mentioned earlier.

Here's an example I can give you to illustrate this point. So consider a situation where the t-shirt is imported into Canada, and then the business prints an image on it. So this last edition of the image is not a substantial transformation. It was a t-shirt before and it is still a t-shirt after the image was added.

Therefore, Printed in Canada or Designed in Canada would be more appropriate in that circumstance.

00:09:46.130 — 00:09:58.300 · Alison 
That's a very helpful example. Can you walk us through how the current tariff situation impacts the threshold calculation requirements for these claims, and how you take into account both production and manufacturing costs?

00:09:58.540 — 00:11:07.030 · Josephine
Yes, that's a really important question, Alison. First, we need to understand that tariffs on imported materials should be included in the cost of non-Canadian content used in the production or manufacturing of products in Canada. Next, we need to know that tariffs can have a direct impact on the costs associated with imported materials, which in turn, of course, may affect the calculation of that Canadian content that we discussed earlier.

When tariffs rise, the cost of those imported goods goes up as well, potentially lowering the overall percentage of Canadian direct costs in the finished product. So here I would say businesses should track and recalculate the production costs whenever tariff rates change. Otherwise, a product that previously met the threshold for the Made in Canada or Product of Canada might fall below that line, rendering the claim potentially false or misleading.

So we as a law enforcement agency, expect businesses to proactively monitor these changes and adjust their origin claims and that any accompanying qualifying statements so that they do not inadvertently mislead consumers.

00:11:07.070 — 00:11:22.350 · Alison
Now, we've talked a lot about the business side of the claim, so I'd like to switch gears a little bit and ask you what advice do you have for Canadians to protect themselves from false or misleading origin claims? And what should they do if they suspect a case of maple washing?

00:11:22.430 — 00:12:33.120 · Josephine
Well, here, let me say that consumers play a key role in holding the marketplace accountable. So in order to be able to identify that something is wrong, one needs to know what is right. And we therefore encourage consumers, just like businesses and advertisers, to obtain an understanding of the meaning of the relevant terms like Product of Canada and Made in Canada.

I would encourage consumers to look at the Bureau's web page on this topic. Information there is written in plain language with accessibility considerations taken into account. I would say scrutinize claims that Made in Canada or maple marketing, especially if details seem vague, or too good to be true.

I would also say ask questions about the origin of the product, and seek out companies willing to provide honest and clear answers about sourcing. Consumers can also review product labeling for qualifying statements. If you suspect that there's a deceptive practice, consumers can, of course, file a complaint with the Bureau. Reporting suspicious claims, helps others, and supports a fair, competitive marketplace.

So it's really, really important to to report to the Bureau and where appropriate, we will take the necessary enforcement action.

00:12:33.160 — 00:12:52.050 · Alison
Now, given the renewed Canadian patriotism, we focused a lot of our conversations so far around Product of Canada and origin claims, but you have a much broader lens, so I'd love you to share what other consumer complaints are top of mind from a marketing perspective, because that's such a valuable and important learning for all of our listeners to understand.

00:12:52.090 — 00:13:52.060 · Josephine
Happy to share some additional areas of interest and focus for the Bureau. Alongside the Made in Canada claims, Canadians we know are becoming increasingly concerned about misleading pricing tactics such as drip pricing and incorrect disclosures of ordinary selling price. The Bureau's information centre also frequently receives complaints related to deceptive or misleading environmental claims or greenwashing.

Fake online reviews is another area of focus for us. It's important for companies to recognize that consumers expect transparency at every stage, including advertising, sales, warranties and support strategies. I would say that relying on ambiguity or the omission of key details, can undermine consumer trust and may result in legal consequences, so should be avoided.

Again, to maintain credibility, businesses should thoroughly review and clearly substantiate their claims while keeping their marketing materials up to date with evolving regulations and consumer expectations.

00:13:52.060 — 00:14:57.790 · Alison
And beyond it being the right and legal thing to do. We also know from some CMA research how savvy consumers and Canadians are, and they are absolutely holding brands and businesses accountable to be truthful. And when they feel they can't trust a brand in business, they will desert them. 87% of Canadians, if they have one reason to not feel a business or brand is trustworthy anymore, they will stop being a customer and they will talk about it.

So if our listeners need any other motivation and I know they don't, it's in every marketer's best interest to be truthful and authentic in their approach. And all the good marketers that we work with are held by the CMA Code of Ethics, and absolutely don't just do this because it's smart business, but because it's the right thing to do as well.

So as a long standing member of the Fraud Prevention Forum, the CMA is actively engaged in this year's campaign and excited that we're now in Fraud Prevention Month and beyond Fraud Prevention Month, we're looking to stay very actively engaged. So what should Canadians and businesses expect from the Competition Bureau, both now in Fraud Prevention Month but also in the months ahead?

00:14:57.830 — 00:17:18.970 · Josephine
So as you mentioned, March is Fraud Prevention Month and the Bureau as Co-Chair, alongside the RCMP and the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre, joins forces with more than 80 partners from the public and private sector across Canada. The aim is to educate and help Canadians and businesses spot and avoid fraud.

This year marks the 22nd year of the campaign where people can expect online resources about scams and criminal deceptive marketing. Let me say here that fraud is one of the fastest growing crimes in Canada, but it often goes unnoticed. It's hidden behind convincing technology or in everyday online interactions, and many cases go unreported even though they cause serious harm.

And the Bureau, along with its many partners, including the CMA, will be encouraging Canadians to recognize, reject and report fraud. It's important also to say here, Alison, that anyone can be a victim of fraud, individuals, businesses and organizations. And the harm isn't just financial. It can also be emotional and psychological.

And that's why fraud awareness must happen year round and Fraud Prevention Month remains vital. It becomes, for us, a national moment of focus that brings attention, partners and momentum all together. So for businesses again, the Bureau will also be sharing best practices, compliance guides and reminders to uphold honest marketing and fair competition.

I can say here, and I should add, scams are growing in scale, crossing borders and becoming more convincing through AI such as impersonation, fake investment scams to fake employment scams. And earlier this month, we published a public alert about the growing threat of AI generated government impersonators, including the highest government officials, to our Prime Minister.

The piece really explains how scammers are now using deep fakes, clone voices and fake governmental style websites to trick people into giving up their money and their personal information. And the alert basically walks Canadians through the red flags to watch for like unnatural video movements, odd sounding audio or suspicious website URLs and reminds everybody to verify messages through official channels.

It's an important update, and I encourage everybody to visit the Bureau's site for full information.

00:17:19.050 — 00:17:32.970 · Alison
Josephine, you're so right that the frauds are becoming so much more sophisticated, and absolutely any one of us can be susceptible and taken in by a fraud. What do you think holds Canadians back from reporting it when it happens to them?

00:17:33.170 — 00:18:21.660 · Josephine
That's a good question. And, you know, we know from the statistics that only 5 to 10% of frauds get reported to law enforcement, whether it's the Bureau, Police Agencies or the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre. Having practiced in this area for a while and being part of the campaign, I can tell you it's a number of things.

It's sometimes it comes to embarrassment, so the victims don't want to come forward and say that they fell for this scam. Other times, it's about the amount of money they may have lost and it wasn't so huge. So it's not worth taking the effort of reporting to law enforcement. And this is what is absolutely wrong.

Because if you don't report to law enforcement, we can't get ahead of it and we can't stop it. So again, the message is to report, report to the Bureau, report to the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre or to your local police.

00:18:21.780 — 00:18:30.700 · Alison
And if it's helpful to our listeners, we can include a link to the alert that you spoke about in the notes to the podcast, so that it's easy for people to access on your site.

00:18:30.740 — 00:18:32.260 · Josephine
That'd be great. Thank you.

00:18:32.300 — 00:18:48.310 · Alison
Now I end each episode by asking our guest to share one piece of career advice. So with over 25 years in competition law and consumer protection, what wisdom would you share with our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps and hold a senior leadership role?

00:18:48.470 — 00:20:31.680 · Josephine
Well, thank you very much for asking me that question. If I can offer one humble piece of advice, I would first say build your career on curiosity, not certainty. Marketing and compliance change every five minutes and certainty gets old fast, in my opinion. But curiosity, that keeps you adaptable, relevant, and honestly is a lot more fun.

Instead of thinking I should already know this, try, "Oh that's interesting. Tell me more." Be the person who asks why a consumer reacts the way they do, or why a rule is shifting, or why the business wants to try something bold. You don't need to have all the answers. You just need to keep learning and keep that curiosity switched on.

Now, professionally, I began my government career clerking with the judges of the Tax Court of Canada. Then I moved to working with the judges of the Federal Court of Appeal to moving to the Department of Justice as a senior litigator, to moving to the Competition Bureau Legal Services Unit as senior executive, and negotiating many deals for the Bureau to where I am today as Deputy Commissioner. 

It takes curiosity to try new things, face new challenges, and develop new ideas in different settings. It's also important to rely on solid role models whom you can trust and who support you. And let me say that my mother is the source of everything I am. She taught me resilience, compassion, and the importance of serving others, values that underpin any healthy, respectful and inclusive society.

It has been an honour and privilege to serve Canadians as a member of the Public Service through the Competition Bureau.

00:20:31.760 — 00:21:10.930 · Alison
Thanks so much, Josephine. You're absolutely right, that curiosity over certainty is has always been important, but it is mission critical today when not just the marketing world, but the business world is changing at a pace that we have never seen before. So for any of us to think we have all the answers is just a fool's game.

I also love the shout out to your mom. My parents were pivotal in shaping who I am, both professionally and personally, so I can absolutely relate to how important it is to, and how lucky we both are to have had parents to shape us that way. Now, I said that was my last question, but your answer prompted me for another one. Of all the careers you could have pursued I'd love to hear why you pursued a career in public service.

00:21:10.970 — 00:22:36.500 · Josephine
For me, it's important to serve the public. And it's, it's a higher calling. And from a side of lucrative, it's not as much lucrative. But there's other things that brought me to the public service. And for me, it's that public calling, that ability to help Canadians, to serve Canadians, to make meaningful changes in different contexts.

And, you know, as a young lawyer in the Department of Justice, I was given early opportunities to be part of the Court systems, which maybe in private sector, doesn't happen as quickly. And in the current role that I'm in, I just find it so rewarding to be able to make a difference in society, make a change, help consumers, and in particular, yes, in the world of business, where there's on one side, the business wants to advance in its money investments.

On the other side, there's the consumer that's going to depend on the business to be truthful, to be honest. And for me, it's it's been such a rewarding experience to be able to hopefully impart some information to Canadians to help them be more wary of of what is out there. Ask questions. Be smart. I always say knowledge is is your best form of power.

So yes, I'm I'm quite pleased with the decisions I've made and I encourage, I encourage anyone who's interested in a career in the public service to really take time to reflect, because it is quite rewarding and quite satisfying in so many ways.

00:22:36.820 — 00:22:47.710 · Alison
Josephine, thank you very much. On behalf of our listeners and the Canadian Marketing Association, I'm very pleased that you chose a career in the public service. And thank you for making a very important impact on our country.

00:22:47.750 — 00:23:11.070 · Josephine
Well, thank you, Alison, for all the great work that you've been doing at this in the CMA during a remarkable period of growth and forward-looking initiatives. And I know this is maybe one of your last podcasts. So on behalf of the Competition Bureau, myself, my colleagues, I just want to wish you the very best as you head towards this next chapter in the months ahead.

So congratulations to you.

00:23:11.350 — 00:23:14.870 · Alison
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And thanks for a great conversation as always.

00:23:14.870 — 00:23:15.990 · Josephine
Thanks, Alison.

00:23:18.270 — 00:23:31.270 · Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Are you prepared to future-proof your brand with AI? Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with IBM's AI experts Alexis Zamkow, Global Offering Leader for Intelligent Marketing at IBM Consulting, and Miglena Nikolova, Senior Portfolio Advisory Marketing Lead at IBM Canada, to explore how marketers can move from AI experimentation to real business impact. With 70% of creative work being busy work, IBM has used AI to slash legal approval cycles from 6 weeks to 6 days. As ChatGPT challenges Google's search dominance, marketers need to learn how to 'market to machines' that are making decisions for consumers.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:25:15
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:25:17 - 00:00:51:01
Alison
In today's episode, we explore a topic that is top of mind for all marketers - how to future-proof ourselves, our teams and our businesses, especially when it comes to Gen AI. Our CMA research found that future-proofing is a top priority for 97% of Canadian marketers. This includes understanding how technologies like AI are impacting marketing, as well as changing consumer behaviours and best practices.

00:00:51:03 - 00:01:24:14
Alison
The good news is that 74% of CMA members are using Gen AI tools for work at least weekly. This actually exceeds the average of 62% among Canadian knowledge workers that include academics, physicians, engineers, and scientists. So we're certainly off to a good start, but there is absolutely a lot more to do since AI is playing an increased role in brands and a more important part in day to day life in Canada. Today, I'm happy to be joined by two marketing leaders from IBM who are living this transformation from both the creative and the technical sides.

00:01:24:15 - 00:01:48:08
Alison
Today's conversation is not about the latest AI tool or the newest capability. It's about the practical, sometimes messy work of incorporating and leveraging AI and marketing in business and helping future-proof your brand. Alexis Zamkow is the Global Offering Leader for Intelligent Marketing within IBM Consulting, where she's at the forefront of helping CMOs navigate the generative AI transformation.

00:01:48:10 - 00:02:23:00
Alison
Alexis specializes in translating complex AI capabilities into practical marketing solutions, helping organizations move from proof of concept to skilled implementation while addressing the critical challenges of cost management, change management, and governance. Miglena Nikolova brings over 20 years of marketing and communications expertise. She currently serves as Senior Portfolio Advisory Marketing Lead for IBM Canada. At IBM, she's exploring how Gen AI is reshaping creativity and authenticity in their marketing and also leveraging AI tools to enhance productivity and innovation.

00:02:23:02 - 00:02:26:01
Alison
Welcome, Alexis and Miglena. It's great to have you with me today.

00:02:26:03 - 00:02:28:07
Alexis
It's great to be here. Thanks for having us.

00:02:28:09 - 00:02:48:22
Miglena
Thank you, Alison, for this warm welcome and introduction. And I would also like to add that Alexis and I are very active in the Canadian marketing community. I sit on the CMA Creativity Council and Alexis is part of the Artificial Intelligence Committee. So in this podcast, we would also be representing the work that we do as part of these rewarding assignments.

00:02:49:00 - 00:03:07:16
Alison
Well thank you for being among our highly engaged CMA members who are helping provide a lot of great thought leadership and a lot of great discussion and debate around hot topics that are important to everyone in our profession. I would love to start with your personal AI journeys. So how are you each using AI both personally and professionally?

00:03:07:21 - 00:03:09:12
Alison
Miglena, do you want to kick things off?

00:03:09:14 - 00:03:38:14
Miglena
Absolutely. Alison, thank you for this question. Because, you know, scaling AI is very much about how we, on a personal level are adopting the new ways of working. And personally, I use it for research, note-taking, often for fun things and projects I'm exploring outside of work. One of the questions I'm pondering on the personal side is what it will mean to write a book in the future, because there are just so many challenges and opportunities in this space.

00:03:38:18 - 00:04:05:23
Miglena
And on the professional side, for marketing, I use predominantly our Consulting Advantage app, which has so many features and applications that literally the sky is the limit in what we can accomplish. We have access to assistants, agents that can help make tasks much faster and more comprehensive than perhaps we ever thought possible, so we can leverage our agents to help us with image recognition, notes and files analysis,

00:04:05:23 - 00:04:35:23
Miglena
PowerPoint generators, summarization. I can give you an example. At a recent marketing event, we hosted over ten separate round tables, each one with notes for the discussion. And then we loaded all the notes in our Executive Summarizer and asked, what were the common themes, what were the unique points, etc. and in minutes, literally, we were able to to generate and share a much more comprehensive and enriching summary of the learnings.

00:04:36:00 - 00:04:48:09
Miglena
So I also routinely leverage AI for writing marketing emails, blogs, graphs, social posts from the perspective of our subject matter experts. And really, that saves a lot of time.

00:04:48:11 - 00:05:10:11
Alexis
So similar to Miglena, our organization is absolutely committed to ensuring that we use generative AI in all aspects of our business. Now I'm in the offering space, so I help to build new offerings for our customers. And so research is important for us. Synthetic research using different personas, different industry groups. We can run ideas for our offerings

00:05:10:11 - 00:05:37:02
Alexis
and value proposition is against those synthetic personas and get some early ideas around, you know, how do we reposition some of our messaging? How do we change some of our offerings to address some of the, the big concerns, that maybe some of our customers have so we are really focusing in on how to solve for those concerns. And how to make sure that our brand is true to the essence of how we're positioning ourselves.

00:05:37:04 - 00:05:58:04
Alexis
So on an offering perspective, you know, there's a lot of great ways that generative AI can support a marketer. Idea generation, we're trying to apply the gen AI to come up with, you know, what's the next great ideas that our clients are really going to take a hold of. So ideation is definitely an area of interest.

00:05:58:04 - 00:06:17:07
Alexis
And then a lot of the pragmatic things that Miglena mentioned. So when we're writing copy, if I want to get it really personal to an industry or to a specific influencer, we leverage personas to be able to make sure that our messages are bang on as to what that individual's needs are and, to make it really highly personalized.

00:06:17:09 - 00:06:41:20
Alexis
So it is embedded within the entire offering area. But at the same time, I work with clients on how they're embedding it in their own operations, so across the entire end-to-end marketing content, supply chain and campaign development, we're coming up with great ways that agents can work simultaneously with humans to improve productivity, also to drive revenue.

00:06:41:22 - 00:07:05:06
Alexis
We're moving very rapidly from a situation of testing, trialing, piloting to scaling. Scaling does require different capabilities to be addressed, and we're working with our clients to help them to do that. IBM, as you guys know, is committed to AI for a very long time. We go back to Jeopardy and Watson. We are steeped in the AI space.

00:07:05:08 - 00:07:50:19
Alexis
And so as things have evolved over the last, you know, probably five years as ten AI has really come to the forefront, our organization has also moved into that space. And our own marketing teams have embraced gen AI really from the beginning. To be able to create a process and a workflow that has agents supporting the entire content supply chain from insights development, being able to scan our product information and make recommendations on how to best position products, the content creator, which then allows you to take, pre-configured templates and be able to assign - here's the target market, here's the product that I'm interested in, here's the key messages and gives you different options

00:07:50:19 - 00:08:20:12
Alexis
around how can you position this. And it isn't about completing it. It's about the start, the starting of the process to allow the creativity to accelerate. And then once that that creative has gone through the process of initial approvals, validation was always a big challenge for us. And we knew that that cycle had to be shortened. So we built agents to be able to take our legals, our brand standards and be able to apply that to the content that we were creating

00:08:20:14 - 00:08:43:00
Alexis
to be able to really shorten up that cycle. Didn't eliminate it. And for most of our clients, you know, elimination isn't the game right now, but to be able to reduce the number of iterations required to go through the legal process was able to allow us to move from something that would normally take six weeks to be able to create, say, a campaign for a social media engagement, six weeks to six days.

00:08:43:02 - 00:09:01:01
Alexis
And I didn't say six minutes, but eventually we might get to six minutes. But right now it is about those iterative improvements that you start automating tasks that you feel do not require that human element, and you supervise where you need to. 

00:09:01:01 - 00:09:27:17
Alison
Great examples, and that really is powerful to see how gen AI can help all of us scale, certainly, regardless of whether you're in a big business, a startup, or somewhere in between, the scalability of the technology is, certainly a major benefit. Now, I know IBM's recent research found that 67% of CMOs are planning to implement gen AI within the next year, and 80% within the next 24 months.

00:09:27:19 - 00:09:40:06
Alison
So for marketers who are wanting to move beyond experimentation to implementation, where should they start? And in particular, what sorts of resources, training and support systems are necessary to help them succeed?

00:09:40:08 - 00:10:07:12
Alexis
I look at one of the biggest challenges and working with clients to be able to scale AI is when you're in a proof of concept it's a very controlled environment. You bring in a certain number of data elements. You have a very restricted output requirement and you have a lot of supervision. What I've seen is as clients move from these very controlled environments where you're really testing to make sure the models are operating without hallucinations and to the level of quality you need,

00:10:07:12 - 00:10:41:23
Alexis
the data that is used by these agents is really critical to be clean, tagged and accurate. And what we're finding is that first step is as you move from a pilot, when you can really control all those pieces, to now dipping into your CDP, your customer data platforms, and if that data and your data asset repositories, if that data isn't well structured and set up for success, no matter what and how intelligent your models are, you're not going to get an output that is of the quality you need.

00:10:41:23 - 00:11:01:13
Alexis
So going back to basics and ensuring that the data that you are feeding into your large language models, your multimodal models, making sure you have that in a structure, in a format that's really going to give you a high quality output is is job one. The next step is really finding the right use cases to scale.

00:11:01:14 - 00:11:32:06
Alexis
You can try lots of things. But if you are going to pick a use case that is very narrow in impact, the business case will be really challenged. So we we recommend our clients sit back and look at the opportunity platforms, look at the opportunities out there, and really make informed choices around risk and reward. Which use cases provide an appropriate level of risk, but with enough reward to really justify the business case.

00:11:32:06 - 00:11:52:22
Alexis
Because investments are required as you scale, and you have to get these wins along the way. You can't wait a year or a year and a half to get the wins. So we suggest, you know, you really have to build out a roadmap of appropriate use cases that you feel comfortable to implement, but to also ensure you have a return on investment.

00:11:53:02 - 00:12:28:02
Alexis
And then finally, the governance and the supervision. Can't separate that from this exercise as you scale. Because here is where the rubber hits the road and full automation could cause concerns about what is being put into the market. So ensuring you have governance of your systems, governance of your process, and also ensuring that your people are skilled and have the right metrics and the right management to be able to execute to the desired outcome. And change management is absolutely critical at every step of this process, and even more so as we're scaling.

00:12:28:04 - 00:12:45:06
Alexis
So, Alison, you mentioned that a lot of our CMOs are moving to this to this next level. And we ask the question, so what is your biggest challenge as you're moving to this next level? And it was really interesting because what came out - two things. One was the cost and the cost isn't the technology. The cost is I have to retrain my people.

00:12:45:06 - 00:13:20:02
Alexis
I have to fix my processes. I have to clean my data. There are so many tangential elements that are required to make these machines work the way you want them to. So there's this whole cost factor that am I really set up for success? But then the next most important aspect was change management. I am surprised, but I hear this often, is that there are a lot of people who just are a bit resistant to change, and how do you make sure that these brilliant, creative people in marketing do not feel minimized by using a tool to maybe begin the first draft of some concepts, or to begin some first illustrations.

00:13:20:03 - 00:13:42:15
Alexis
Overcoming human resistance and skills gaps is the second and absolutely most, you know, critical element to long term success. And that is where CMA is doing some really great things around helping companies to really embrace and learn how to do change management around tools like gen AI.

00:13:42:17 - 00:14:16:12
Miglena
Absolutely. And you know, those were great points really. And you know, for me, being on the internal side and not really working directly with clients, I think as marketers, the onus is on us to take responsibility for our own learnings so we're not left behind in this world of the future and this, future of work. And we should be thinking about the jobs that we do today and how that job, each of the tasks we do can be disrupted by AI and then disrupt ourselves and learn and build from there.

00:14:16:12 - 00:14:53:20
Miglena
Right? Just understand how we can enhance what we do with AI, how we can really leverage that new technology. And what I find is also that, a lot of marketers work for organizations that are not yet at that critical stage where the employees are empowered and, have access to tools and even are encouraged experimenting. And so depending on the type of organization that you work for, I think it's important to think about what kind of exposure and adoption that your organization currently has and how you can learn.

00:14:53:20 - 00:15:04:22
Miglena
How are you experimenting, what tools are you using today, and how you can supplement that externally in order to continue to learn and grow to really future-  proof yourself.

00:15:05:00 - 00:15:36:12
Alexis
So, Alison, just one other, point to build off of what Miglena just mentioned in adoption. When we first adopted it at IBM, this was a corporate wide commitment. And it wasn't a small group of really excited people in IT or in a small group in a contact centre. It was from the top down. And where I see success globally is where the C-suite makes a commitment that this will become embedded in the DNA of the company.

00:15:36:12 - 00:16:02:10
Alexis
And it is not a sideline project that you just stand it up and hopefully it works. And it's not something that just because the shareholders are expecting it in, you know, the roadmap. It truly needs to be embedded as a way of working and at all levels, not just at the hands-on level, but strategically we have to be thinking about this needs to be embedded in the front of the shop, in the back of the shop.

00:16:02:10 - 00:16:30:00
Alexis
The customer experience when you're looking at generative tools needs to be completely knitted between sales, service, marketing, commerce. Once you start bringing a generative capability to the forefront, building it in isolation will not deliver the rewards needed. So even more so important that marketing, sales, service, these platforms need to work together. The executives need to work together.

00:16:30:02 - 00:16:43:16
Alexis
It will not deliver what's needed in isolation. So these big commitments really take a bit of time. And if you don't have senior leadership support, it really is hard to scale beyond some exciting pilots.

00:16:43:18 - 00:17:05:15
Alison
It's such a great point Alexis. And when I've talked to a number of different organizations, including a number of our members, you're absolutely right. It's not just the C-suite. It has to actually come from the CEO. Those are such important parts to get beyond the challenge of change management that regardless of whether it's gen AI, new office, any time there's change, the change management element tends to be the most challenging part of that.

00:17:05:15 - 00:17:14:23
Alison
So those are really helpful suggestions in how to help incentivize and help teams see the potential in this instead of the intimidation.

00:17:15:01 - 00:17:45:05
Alexis
But also how you hire people. So Alison, this is another bit of learning that we have internally that, there's certain skill sets that really are coming to the forefront. And it's not always coding, it's about creativity. It's the ability to have good judgment. It's the ability to think more in an agile fashion. And those skills are actually really, really critical to be able to embrace these new technologies and get the most out of them.

00:17:45:05 - 00:18:09:04
Alexis
So some of the hard skills are not as nearly as important as the soft skills of understanding how to work with new data sources, new inputs, new ways of working, collaboration. That is an HR challenge now, when you're hiring people, you have to hire for someone who will embrace these capabilities to make your workforce work for you.

00:18:09:06 - 00:18:29:14
Miglena
And as you can imagine, especially from the perspective of my work on the CMA Creativity Council, we spend a lot of time thinking about that and discussing how AI will really impact even the meaning of creativity. All the new opportunities, the expanded creative horizons, all the new dimensions that are available to marketers.

00:18:29:16 - 00:18:51:07
Alexis
And CMO leadership. We see that in the decisions that are being made now. And gen AI, I usually work with the CMO in concert with that CIO. It's the CMO telling the CIO, these are the things that I need and I need your help to deliver those. CMOs are becoming much more technology savvy and need to be because their employees are too.

00:18:51:09 - 00:18:56:13
Alexis
So so that's this is just hastening that discipline change and that outlook change that we see.

00:18:56:15 - 00:19:07:07
Alison
So your experience working with clients globally gives you a really unique lens. So I'm curious to hear how AI usage by brands in Canada compares to other countries that you're working with.

00:19:07:08 - 00:19:30:14
Alexis
Well, it all depends on the industry, Alison. Because I actually think, you know, certain industries versus certain geographies are embracing gen AI faster. I see retail being on the forefront, and they usually are on the forefront of new technologies because of the demands that consumers are putting on retailers, that they expect things to be in real time, in any channel, in any place, at any time.

00:19:30:14 - 00:19:54:09
Alexis
And they expect it to be very conversational. So I believe that and I see our own retailers in Canada really stepping up. So the retail space is right there, and services. And services have always been very customer-centric. Any company that really has to be customer-centric when it comes to marketing and gen AI is on the forefront. You think about, you know, the Hyatts, and the Marriotts of the world where there's a lot of consumer interaction.

00:19:54:09 - 00:20:13:17
Alexis
CPG companies are embracing it, but for different reasons. For a lot of the efficiencies they're getting out of the assets they need to build, to be able to be as more personalized. Where I'm seeing companies that are not embracing as quickly is the financial services and insurance. A little bit more conservative, a little bit more concerned about data.

00:20:13:17 - 00:20:44:06
Alexis
But these organizations are beginning to recognize the benefits, maybe not in direct consumer dialogs, but in customer service, back office. There is a movement afoot, even in those areas, to be a little bit more nimble when it comes to generative tools. So the Canadian market, I think I see it almost at par with what I'm seeing in Europe, but it's the industries themselves that are moving at different paces and the way of adoption specifically for marketing.

00:20:44:08 - 00:21:07:11
Alison
Building on the finance piece, obviously there's a whole regulatory piece of that as well, where they, to a point, don't have any choice but to be a little bit slow in adoption. I also have some notable exceptions. From what I've heard, the CEO of RBC is absolutely, this is top of mind for him, and he seems to be more on the forefront of this than maybe some of the other financial institutions in Canada.

00:21:07:13 - 00:21:36:04
Alexis
That is their business. I mean, RBC is always been on the forefront of AI. So that is a transition that is an easier transition for folks who really appreciate and accept the need to have intelligence in process. They can move faster. And so yes, I do see the banks once they get through some of those legal hurdles and some of the PII concerns and whatnot, they will be equally robust in their customer experience streams as other organizations.

00:21:36:08 - 00:21:46:06
Alison
So Miglena and I'd love you to share what future trends you see emerging. Now, given the speed that AI is moving at, let's timestamp this question about and focus on the next 24 months.

00:21:46:08 - 00:22:05:10
Miglena
Yes, Alison, I think the biggest question is about adoption. And we talked about the host of all new skills that like creative thinking, collaboration, that really organizations really need to be given the runway to build that up. And the real value will come when teams pair the technology

00:22:05:17 - 00:22:35:10
Miglena
With good data and solid processes and clear governance with human creativity. And so it's not just about how AI can help us build better creative, it's also about how we can improve the creative process with better data, better process and productivity. 70% of creative people's work is busywork that's not creative. And by leveraging the power of AI, we can free up that time and really make careers a lot more interesting.

00:22:35:10 - 00:22:42:11
Miglena
So the next year, I think it's really about moving into this new way of working for a lot of organizations.

00:22:42:16 - 00:23:20:11
Alexis
An area that I'm spending quite a bit of time on is area of AEO and GEO. Search is so important for marketers and Search drives awareness, interest, engagement and purchase. And we're seeing now that the dominance that Google has had in Search is starting to be challenged with the new LLM search engines, the ChatGPT, Perplexity, Claude. As you and I start using these tools on a day to day basis, they are replacing our traditional methods of going and searching for things, and they're making the decisions for you.

00:23:20:11 - 00:23:47:03
Alexis
And when you look at AI overviews, when you start looking at the summaries that are coming in ChatGPT, these engines are going to sites, they're finding out the information, and then they're making decisions and they're setting priorities. What is the best luxury car in the market? What are the best deals for telecommunications? And as these tools start dominating the outcomes of searches, marketers need to start thinking about how do they market to machines.

00:23:47:03 - 00:24:14:21
Alexis
Because the machines are making the decisions of how your brand is being presented to millions of consumers. So is your site being crawled properly? Are your citations being pulled out properly? Are you being even shown when those summaries are coming up? I am seeing this being a real groundswell of concern, because so many marketers depend on that initial search activity. And the buying activity, 

00:24:14:21 - 00:24:33:05
Alexis
GPT just came out with an ability to go right through from their recommendation into a purchase on Etsy. And they're going to add other merchants. So so these engines are really replacing a lot of the traditional methods around which consumers interact with brands.

00:24:33:07 - 00:24:47:18
Alison
Now Miglena, back to you for a rapid fire question. How do you maintain authenticity and protect brand integrity when using AI, and in particular, what governance framework should marketers be putting in place to avoid brand missteps?

00:24:47:19 - 00:25:10:12
Miglena
Yes, Alison, this is such an important point. How can gen AI enable marketers to deliver, brand compliant content? And, well, the technical answer is going to take you through foundation models and customized user interface, in practice what that means is that any off the shelf solution cannot be trusted to do the job that you need it to do as an organization.

00:25:10:12 - 00:25:35:08
Miglena
It's really important, especially at the large enterprise level, that we use tools and resources that are, if not proprietary, at least customized, trained on our branding guidelines. So tone of voice, trained on reference, our reference images, right? In that way, we can trust that the output is brand-compliant and that the images are going to be free of copyright infringement issues.

00:25:35:08 - 00:25:52:20
Miglena
There's such a big impact on creativity, but also there are these challenges that we have to keep in mind. In order to trust the output, you really need to be able to trust the inputs and to have a human in the loop, which we talked about. Do the fact checks, the gut checks, the refinements before hitting the live button.

00:25:52:22 - 00:26:13:10
Alison
Now, I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, and it's clear that this is a very rich and robust area, and we could be talking for hours. Before we go, I would like to broaden the conversation and end by asking each of you to share one piece of career advice. You both have great careers, and I know a number of our listeners would love to hear how they could achieve a career like you have had.

00:26:13:10 - 00:26:15:05
Alison
And Miglena, why don't you kick us off?

00:26:15:07 - 00:26:39:15
Miglena
My piece of advice I always say to marketers is to be curious. Curiosity can drive exploration in different areas, and sometimes in our day to day jobs, we're really operating in a box. We don't have the breadth of experiences and opportunities to test and learn and to hear different perspectives. And for that reason, I challenge marketers to be curious and step outside of their box.

00:26:39:17 - 00:27:12:18
Miglena
Talk to leaders outside of your organization, find out how they're solving for similar challenges, how they're leveraging the AI opportunity, and go to external events. Talk to leaders from competitors, from other industries in order to get that breadth of expertise and perspectives. And as with any change, keep in mind that when you learn a new skill, and that is new for for all of us, like we are learning as we go, there will be a ramp-up, but doing is really the important part.

00:27:12:20 - 00:27:45:14
Alexis
So Miglena, you chuck the number one suggestion right out of my mouth, curiosity. So I'll build on that. Obviously, curiosity is so key, but I'll take it maybe a step further and say curiosity with an open mind that things are going to change rapidly. Having an open mind to being willing to try new things, to take risks, granted, measured risks, but the risks that you take will drive a lot of rewards.

00:27:45:14 - 00:28:14:15
Alexis
And if you're in the right organization with the right boss, that will allow you to fail, but to learn from your failures and then accelerate that learning into something really spectacular, that's an absolutely brilliant way to grow your career. So be open-minded. Be willing to take measured risks. Be willing to work with partners. You can't do it alone.

00:28:14:17 - 00:28:32:06
Alexis
No one can keep up with this technology and no one can keep up with the ideas. So be open to others ideas and embrace those ideas because we win as a team. You win with partners. This is not a solo game. This is a community activity.

00:28:32:08 - 00:28:52:03
Miglena
I would encourage also our listeners to explore the rich resources of the CMA. I know that there has been incredible work that Alison's committee has done as well in launching resources. So make sure that you are leveraging those as well.

00:28:52:05 - 00:29:19:00
Alison
Thank you very much for the plug. You're right, we've got a lot of great AI resources and the AI committee that Alexis is part of have created a weekly AI playbook series. We're now produced over 25. And each week it's a new topic. It's very digestible, and it's a really good way to have an ongoing learning opportunity. And then the CMA, we've got a lot of articles, we've got other podcasts around the topic, and we also have a number of AI training programs as well.

00:29:19:00 - 00:29:36:23
Alison
So Miglena, I really appreciate that of the plug, and there are absolutely a lot of complimentary AI resources and then some professional development opportunities as well, available through the CMA. I really want to thank you both. It's been an insight-rich conversation, and I'm excited to see, where it goes from here. 

Miglena
Thank you.

00:29:37:01 - 00:29:44:07
Alexis
Thank you Alison. Take care.

00:29:44:09 - 00:29:56:21
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this special episode, CMA CEO Alison Simpson sits down with RBC CMO and CMA Board Chair Alan Depencier, to interview each other as both transition from CMA leadership roles in 2026. They celebrate achievements including 150+ new member organizations, the DMSC and AI playbook success, while unveiling 2026 plans for Marketing Week's national expansion, new councils and much more.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:19
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:21 - 00:00:41:08
Alison
I am absolutely thrilled to welcome back Alan Depencier, the chair of CMA's Board of Directors, to our podcast today, where we will be discussing all that we have planned for the CMA in 2026. This year marks a milestone for both Alan and I, as he is wrapping up his term as our CMA Board Chair, and I will be retiring in May.

00:00:41:14 - 00:00:58:00
Alison
So we're also going to take a little bit of time to reflect on our time together, what we've accomplished, and why the CMA has such an important role in future-proofing marketers and our profession. We're going to take a bit of a different approach to the episode, too, with Alan turning the tables on me by asking me a few questions.

00:00:58:02 - 00:01:26:02
Alison
Alan was elected to the CMA board in 2019 and has contributed significantly. He's been a member of CMA's Member Engagement and Human Resource Committees, Chaired the Finance and Audit Committee, and served as Board Vice Chair before his appointment as Chair in May 2024. Alan also played a pivotal role in the creation of our CMA NXT program, which helps university and college students bridge the gap between post-secondary education and starting their professional life in marketing.

00:01:26:04 - 00:01:47:01
Alison
In addition to all of his outstanding contributions to the CMA, Alan has a really inspiring career in marketing. He has held senior marketing roles at RBC for 21 years, including most recently as Chief Marketing Officer for Commercial Banking and Insurance. Prior to his tenure at RBC, Alan managed consumer packaged goods brands and spearheaded the growth of a startup venture.

00:01:47:03 - 00:01:51:08
Alison
So welcome back Alan. I am absolutely looking forward to a great conversation today.

00:01:51:10 - 00:01:59:14
Alan
Thanks, Alison. I'm excited to join you once again. And I'm excited that we get to, you know, reverse roles for a bit. I get to ask you some questions.

00:01:59:16 - 00:02:20:09
Alison
Definitely going to be a fun one. So, Alan, between your very demanding role as CMO at RBC and your many CMA Board commitments, plus your involvement with the overall CMA, everything from helping create CMA NXT to chairing multiple committees and now being our Board Chair, you've clearly invested tremendous time and a great deal of energy in our profession.

00:02:20:11 - 00:02:25:04
Alison
So what drives that passion and what has kept you so engaged with CMA's mission?

00:02:25:06 - 00:02:45:17
Alan
Great question Alison. You know, at the core, I believe marketing really matters. When it's done well, it drives business growth, it strengthens brands, and it can genuinely improve people's lives. I see that every day at RBC. What the CMA gives me is a chance to zoom out and help shape that profession as a whole, but not just for one organization.

00:02:45:19 - 00:03:08:22
Alan
And what initially pulled me in was the people. You know, when you're surrounded by some of the smartest marketers in the country, you know, tackling some of the biggest issues like AI, privacy, trust, it's incredibly energizing. But it became personal when I saw the impact of what we could actually make on the industry. You know, I'm a much better marketer today by being a part of the CMA, and I would encourage most folks to take advantage of the opportunity that sits in front of them.

00:03:09:00 - 00:03:31:11
Alan
CMA NXT is a great example. We didn't just talk about the gap between school and the workplace. We built something that helped students launch their real careers. Seeing the kind of tangible impact, it's super powerful. And honestly, what kept me engaged is that the CMA is where the future of marketing is in Canada is really being shaped. Being part of that, especially alongside leaders like you, has been one of the most rewarding chapters of my career.

00:03:31:13 - 00:03:41:19
Alison
Thanks Alan, that means a lot. Now we're going to turn the tables. Although you're not officially off the hook, you get to ask me a few questions, but I'm definitely going to get you back for some other questions later in the podcast.

00:03:41:21 - 00:03:42:13
Alan
This is great.

00:03:42:13 - 00:03:43:06
Alison
So over to you.

00:03:43:12 - 00:04:07:20
Alan
Okay. First question. Alison, you've led the CMA through what I've characterized as a complete transformation. When you look at where we are today versus where we were in the past, with our significantly expanded benefits for members, our AI master series featuring 32 practical playbooks, the DMSC program up-skilling of 1900 marketers and supporting 700 small and medium sized enterprises, and a record member satisfaction scores.

00:04:07:22 - 00:04:11:15
Alan
What do you see as a turning point that made this level of change possible?

00:04:11:17 - 00:04:37:19
Alison
Oh, you're clearly starting with an easy question I see. So, you know Alan, I really think the turning point was when we truly embraced the CMAs important role and helping future-proof the marketing profession and took a really collaborative approach. So the transformation happened because our Board, our senior leadership team, our overall CMA team and our incredible engaged members all really aligned around the shared vision of what the CMA could become.

00:04:37:21 - 00:04:57:16
Alison
And I think back to my first 100 days, at the end of which I had led the creation of CMA's Refined Value Equation, and everyone played a really important role in this, which helped set up the direction for the coming months and the years, and ultimately for the transformation that we've driven together. The board strategic guidance has been absolutely invaluable.

00:04:57:18 - 00:05:19:15
Alison
You and the Board didn't just support bold initiatives, you really helped shape them. And since I joined, the Board has been so actively involved alongside our team and our membership. So together, we've really challenge ourselves to think bigger, to create something that could truly serve the profession. And that's led to many great initiatives and our ability to really step up and help future-proof marketers in our profession.

00:05:19:15 - 00:05:41:08
Alison
And you highlighted some of the big wins that we've had together. And I think we should be incredibly proud that our member scores 87% for how the CMA is future-proofing marketing. When I step back and think about what I'm most proud of, it really comes down to the fact that we've got all of these incredibly involved members like you, and they really are the real heroes in the transformation.

00:05:41:09 - 00:06:04:05
Alison
We have hundreds of senior marketers who are contributing through our Councils and Committees. They're coming together to debate and to learn. They're creating thought leadership that's shaping marketing, supporting our government advocacy and developing the content that really educates our profession and our community. And then we also have an amazing group of rising star marketers from across our membership with our new CMA Aim Advisory board.

00:06:04:07 - 00:06:25:01
Alison
And they're really ensuring that we're building strong relevance and engagement for junior members and the future CMOs of the CMA. Plus, we've significantly grown our Chartered Marketer community, I'm super proud of that. And they're all really actively engaged. And those are just a few examples of how it's our overall community really coming together and collaborating that has made us so successful.

00:06:25:06 - 00:06:40:15
Alison
And the journey certainly has taught us that CMA's greatest asset isn't our programs or advocacy. It really is the passionate community of marketers who actively engage, volunteer their time and share their expertise to really help advance our profession.

00:06:40:17 - 00:07:02:22
Alan
That's great. And I know in previous podcasts you love to ask some of your guests questions about their leadership philosophy. You know, your approach to future-proofing the profession has been remarkable the last few years, and I could go on and on with many different things you've led, whether it's mentoring programs, AI resources, getting more value as part of your membership fees, council structure, the awards programs.

00:07:03:00 - 00:07:08:05
Alan
I could go on and on, but my key question is, what's your philosophy on building that kind of sustainable transformation?

00:07:08:09 - 00:07:31:12
Alison
Oh, you're making me blush. The real insight is it's not me. It's all of us together. And my philosophy really centres on leveraging collective brilliance. The most sustainable transformation can only happen when you're really inclusive in your approach, and you really look for ways to unlock the expertise that already exists within our community. And Alan, you and the Board are absolutely invaluable partners in this approach.

00:07:31:14 - 00:07:51:16
Alison
You didn't just provide governance, you provided really great strategic insight that helped elevate our approach and certainly elevated our initiatives. And when we designed the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, when we brought to life for the first time ever, CMA Marketing Week, Board members shared their expertise and really helped us understand what would resonate with the overall profession.

00:07:51:18 - 00:08:14:15
Alison
And then certainly our members are mission critical to what we've accomplished, and our CMA Committees and Councils. So they really act a lot like think tanks that are led by practitioners who are living these challenges daily. The CMA weekly AI playbooks that we launched in 2025 provide really actionable learning and insights in this key area. So they're such a terrific example, because the AI committee is coming together,

00:08:14:15 - 00:08:44:00
Alison
they're helping create the playbooks and they're drawing on very real experience with implementing AI in major organizations, and also from leading innovators in Canadian AI companies. We've got a 95% average satisfaction score across all events in 2025, which also really reflects this philosophy. We don't create in isolation. We have engaged members that help design agendas, they're contributing their insights, and they're really sharing their expertise.

00:08:44:06 - 00:09:07:13
Alison
And that's why our CMA events can deliver value that you simply can't get anywhere else. So I'm certainly super lucky to be working with the talented and dedicated team at the CMA. They really love the marketing profession. They're deeply committed to helping future-proof it, and they work hard, care deeply, and we also have a lot of fun along the way, which you can never underestimate the importance of fun along the way as well.

00:09:07:15 - 00:09:28:07
Alison
So the key insight for me is that transformation really requires participation, not just consumption. Our active members don't just attend our events, they help shape them. They don't just read our thought leadership, they help create it. And that's really how you can build an ecosystem that continuously evolves and improves and will live long beyond my time with the CMA.

00:09:28:09 - 00:09:51:05
Alan
Yeah, I think like all great leaders, it's the people that actually make the difference. And I think not only you being a great leader, but the folks you surround yourself with and the community in general has obviously been a big part of your success. And kudos for you to recognize that as you look forward. My next question is, you know, your decision to retire in May comes at a time when many call, you know, one of the peak moments of CMA impact and momentum.

00:09:51:07 - 00:09:56:04
Alan
How do you view the timing and what excites you most about the foundation you're leaving for your successor?

00:09:56:06 - 00:10:17:08
Alison
So the timing really reflects the strength of the collaborative leadership model that we have. And the transformation, as we both talked about, is never dependent on any one person. It's been built through the partnership between our senior leadership team, our full CMA staff, the Board and our incredible member community. So Alan, you and the Board have been absolutely instrumental throughout this journey.

00:10:17:09 - 00:10:41:23
Alison
Your strategic guidance, your willingness to really support bold initiatives, your commitment to excellence, that foundation continues long after I'm gone. And with the Board's oversight, strategic partnership and the strong CMA team will absolutely ensure really strong continuity, which is why I'm very confident in wrapping things up at the CMA later this year. But what excites me the most is the depth of the member engagement that we've built.

00:10:42:01 - 00:11:11:11
Alison
We have over 300 members actively involved across our CMA Councils and Committees. Plus we have 200 members who are now involved and benefiting from our new CMA Mentorship Program, which is exclusive to and free for CMA members. And our Mentorship Program really shows how our members are also investing in each other's success. So my successor inherits something extraordinary, a terrific team and a community that is so actively engaged in shaping where Canada's marketing profession is going in the future.

00:11:11:17 - 00:11:40:00
Alison
They get to walk into an organization where our Board members and the CMA team have a thriving strategic partnership. Staff are executing with excellence, and we have engaged members who are contributing expertise that enhances everything that we do. So this is never just been about organizational succession. It really is about transferring leadership of a movement. And that movement has such great momentum because it's powered by people who are passionate about marketing's future in Canada, and it's not dependent on any individual leader.

00:11:40:02 - 00:11:47:23
Alan
I guess I have to give you the reins back now. And now you have to ask me questions. So I actually like asking questions better than answering questions. It's more fun.

00:11:48:01 - 00:12:07:07
Alison
I can totally relate to that. But a test of growth and leadership is being stretched beyond your comfort zone. So you've stretched me. Now I'll return the favour and stretch you by asking you some questions. So Alan, you've had a front row seat to this transformation as Board Chair. So what the accomplishments of the CMA and the Board partnership are you most proud of?

00:12:07:09 - 00:12:11:12
Alison
And how do you see the Board's role in sustaining the momentum moving forward?

00:12:11:14 - 00:12:35:13
Alan
You know, when I step back and look at the last few years, what I'm most proud of is that we didn't just grow the CMA. We actually made it more relevant. Yes, numbers matter. You know, we've grown by more than 450 member organizations. We've added over 125 new members since 2023. We've had record client satisfaction scores. But behind those numbers are marketers who genuinely see value in the CMA and what it's doing.

00:12:35:13 - 00:13:01:13
Alan
And I think when I talk to folks now versus when I talked to them when I first joined, I can feel that enthusiasm, I can feel that passion. They're seeing more value coming from being part of the CMA. And I think that's the qualitative side of kind of looking at the numbers. From a Board perspective, our biggest contribution was helping set the strategic direction and priorities in collaboration with yourself and your leadership team, but more importantly is really that bold execution.

00:13:01:14 - 00:13:21:04
Alan
If you look at the Digital Marketing Skills Canada, it's a perfect example. That was one that wasn't traditionally on our radar, and you brought that to us. And after reviewing it as a Board and looking at the opportunity, it's done wonders for the organization. One we've up-skilled more than 2000 marketers helped the majority of them advance their careers and get into the profession.

00:13:21:06 - 00:13:49:16
Alan
And more importantly, we increased our representation with some groups that we typically were unrepresentative from a marketing perspective. So I feel really proud about that. We've also modernized the Chartered Marketer designation and more than doubled participation, reinforcing it as the gold standard for marketing leadership in Canada. And I'm super proud of CMAs growing national voice. You and the team have just done a wonderful job, whether it's privacy, competition, digital policy, the governments at all levels, whether it's federal or provincial, are listening to the CMA.

00:13:49:16 - 00:14:21:16
Alan
They're actually calling us now for our perspectives. This is super fulfilling, and I think it really shows the advocacy role that you've played and the team's played in helping to grow the profession. As I look forward, I feel we have so much momentum on some of the bigger strategies and it really is around, really over the next 3 to 5 years, is taking some of those strategies to the next level and building on that continuity of our focus over the last few years. You know, we've built a sustainable model grounded in insight and collaboration with the members, and that foundation will serve the next CEO extremely well and the profession.

00:14:21:18 - 00:14:37:16
Alan
And I really feel like we're just getting started. I'm super excited for you, Alison, to be retiring this year. However, I'm a little bit disappointed because, you know, we are building such a wonderful thing together. But I guess bringing someone a new with a new lens and a new passion will just help us take it to the whole new level.

00:14:37:16 - 00:14:55:07
Alan
And I'd be remiss if I didn't thank my fellow Board members. I am so privileged to work with some of the best Board members that you could wish to have around the table as part of the CMA Board, and I'm super excited that we'll be leaving it in really good hands as we both transition in 2026.

00:14:55:09 - 00:15:15:21
Alison
Alan, you're so right. We've got a phenomenal Board. You have led by example in your Chair role and the willingness to take on those big opportunities that can be a little scary at the time, I mean, as we were launching the first year of the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, the CMA team was referring to it as we were literally building the plane as we were flying it, and we did it phenomenally well.

00:15:15:21 - 00:15:40:03
Alison
But it was really bringing a startup mentality into an established, not for profit association. And so that taught us a lot of skills around agility and everything else as well, and there is so much to be proud of. And the way you ended with the Board, we you're so right, we've got an incredibly talented Board with really big, busy, demanding jobs who are so dedicated to our profession, are such amazing partners to me,

00:15:40:03 - 00:16:02:10
Alison
and as the CEO, to the senior leadership team and are really making such a powerful, positive impact on our profession. So huge kudos to you as Chair and to our overall Board as well. So Alan, now let's talk about what excites you the most for 2026. Once again, we're expanding CMA Marketing Week, we're launching new councils and innovation and social content in commerce.

00:16:02:10 - 00:16:18:11
Alison
We're continuing to expand our robust AI resources and professional development programs. And then we're also introducing a new CMO forum and the AIM Development program, to name a few. So which of these initiatives do you think will have the biggest impact on advancing our profession this year?

00:16:18:14 - 00:16:38:02
Alan
It's really hard to just pick one, because everything we're doing really builds upon the same strength, which is engaged members. That said, I would say the CMA Marketing Week really stands out, maybe it's the top of mind for me. We saw attendance jump 40% last year, and in 2026, we're really thinking about how do we expand that nationally with events in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal?

00:16:38:04 - 00:17:00:15
Alan
It truly is becoming a moment for the profession, a place where Canada's top marketers come together to learn, debate and connect. And of course, no marketer can just have one. If I think of a second one, I'd have to say AI is the other one. This isn't optional anymore. Whether you're early in your career or you're a more seasoned senior leader at an organization, AI is changing how marketing works.

00:17:00:17 - 00:17:19:20
Alan
The CMA playbooks, the training, the upcoming AI readiness study are all going to help marketers move from experimentation to real execution. And I think that sense of community talking about this as a community amongst the CMA is going to help us learn from each other and pivot, because it's nobody has the answer, but we all know it's going to be an exciting future.

00:17:19:20 - 00:17:39:18
Alan
So I think it's going to be a year of a lot of experimentation and applying to really get the benefits of AI. But probably what I'm most excited about is how we're expanding ways for our members to continue to engage in the association. We've got new councils, you've got the AIM, you've got the CMO forums, mentorship opportunities.

00:17:39:20 - 00:18:01:22
Alan
There's just more and more opportunities for everyone to not only contribute to the community, but also to get value out of that community. And I think that's what people look for. It's hard to have one thing that is for everyone. And the great news is we're doing all that while keeping it very accessible. I think you came to the Board with a strong commitment that we did not want to increase membership fees, and we want to allow people to get more value.

00:18:02:00 - 00:18:23:03
Alan
I think we're going to hopefully continue with that progress to make sure folks get more value. You're having more free events, and you're also giving significant discounts to folks who sign up. That's just signs of momentum that you have that we can afford to do that. So 2026 isn't just about launching more programs, it's about deepening collaborative relationships and really future-- proofing marketing in Canada.

00:18:23:03 - 00:18:45:08
Alison
So you're so right. It's really tough to choose just one. But one I would add is I'm super excited to be leading the development of an updated CMA brand alongside our CMO Barry and our member agency, LG2. Since I joined, we've been so focused on evolving our offering, delivering really tangible, meaningful benefits to help future-proof marketers in the marketing profession.

00:18:45:10 - 00:19:05:12
Alison
And now it really is time for our brand identity to reflect that transformation. So we shared the new brand with our CMA team in December, and they were absolutely thrilled. I'm excited to unveil it to the Board in the coming weeks, and I'm really looking forward to unveiling it to all of our members in the marketing profession in May at our CMA Marketing Week.

00:19:05:13 - 00:19:09:06
Alan
That's fantastic. I look forward to actually seeing it. I haven't seen it yet.

00:19:09:07 - 00:19:22:00
Alison
You will see it in the next week or so. So Alan, with your extensive experience at RBC and now as Board Chair, what do you see as the essential capabilities that marketing leaders need to develop in order to stay ahead of the curve?

00:19:22:02 - 00:19:41:19
Alan
If I had to narrow it down, I'd say there's two capabilities that really matter now. The first is AI fluency. You don't really need to be a technologist, but you do need to understand how AI is reshaping insight, creativity, and execution. Many marketers are still experimenting when they should be starting to apply. And that's where I think the playbooks that you and the team have put together,

00:19:41:19 - 00:19:57:05
Alan
I think you've put together like 32 different AI playbooks that are really designed to help people apply. So I think that's going to be a skill set. And I heard one analogy around, you know, marketers, we're not going to lose our jobs to AI, but you might lose your job to somebody that knows how to apply AI better than you do.

00:19:57:05 - 00:20:13:23
Alan
So I feel like we all have to embrace that. We all have to lean into it and go on that journey together, and it's just going to make us much better marketers over the future, and we'll learn where it works well and where it doesn't work well. We also are releasing the second AI readiness study. So marketers will see how they stack up with their level of adoption and what they need to do next.

00:20:13:23 - 00:20:45:12
Alan
I think that's a really important resource for folks to get a sense of where they sit on that curve. So of course, every answer has to start with AI. So I've got that one out of the way. Now let's go to the second piece. The second one is really around coalition building. I think one of the biggest wins I see working both at RBC and through the CMA is that when marketing brings together, you know, the various partners around a problem or a shared outcome, whether it's the technology group, the operation groups and other leadership across the organization, that's where the magic happens.

00:20:45:12 - 00:21:06:17
Alan
So this concept of coalition building is really important. The most effective marketing leaders today aren't just building great campaigns. They're just great connectors. They align people, ideas and organizations. They're using impact and influence to really drive change and success within their organization. That's also why our councils and our membership program, and the forums you guys have created are so important.

00:21:06:17 - 00:21:22:22
Alan
We're not just developing skills, we're strengthening the relations to really drive long term impact. At the end of the day, most of our jobs are around people and the better you can be around getting behind ideas and moving your organization in a direction and not being afraid to fail is just going to make you a better marketer.

00:21:23:04 - 00:21:47:01
Alison
Thanks, Alan, and you're so right. Like, the AI playbooks, the fact that it's a weekly resource, it's a quick read. It's evolving as AI is evolving and we're now up to 37. So we're continuing those weekly AI playbooks through 2026. We've now got 37 that are also for someone that's new to it and listening, you can go back and review, pick and choose of the 37 that already exist and know that you've got a weekly resource that will continue to grow.

00:21:47:01 - 00:22:07:23
Alison
And then with the AI readiness study, our member organization that's partnered with the CMA on this is Twenty44. And they've offered a wonderful opportunity for our members. They can actually do a personalized AI readiness report for members, and they'll do it for free. It's typically a value of $10,000. So that's another great new benefit that CMA members can take advantage of.

00:22:08:01 - 00:22:27:05
Alison
Now, Alan, as you might remember from your first appearance on CMA Connect, I am so lucky to have very senior leaders as my guests each episode, and I always end by asking for one piece of career advice that you would share with our listeners who really are looking to future-proof their own careers and follow in your footsteps.

00:22:27:10 - 00:22:46:10
Alan
That's always a super tough question, because there's not just one thing that makes a great marketer. And my advice, probably at the simplest form, is you need to invest in things that compound over time. One of them is relationships, is probably the biggest one. Every mentor you learn from, every colleague you support. Those connections pay dividends in ways that you can't always predict.

00:22:46:12 - 00:23:05:18
Alan
My own journey with the CMA started as a way to kind of give back, and over time, it became a more meaningful part of my time and and a huge accelerator for my career. It opened me up to this incredible network of folks. No matter what challenge I'm taking on or what problem I might have, is reaching out to that network to get different perspectives, just going to help you make better decisions.

00:23:05:18 - 00:23:30:12
Alan
So I think you don't have to be the smartest person in the room, because you have access to so many great people that can help you tackle problems or give you different lenses. You know, the CMA is actually one of those rare volunteer opportunities where you can really get the best of both worlds. You can you can feel good because you're contributing to the profession and you're giving back, and at the same time, you're sharpening your thinking, you're expanding your network, and you're building leadership skills that directly enhance your day job.

00:23:30:14 - 00:23:47:19
Alan
And how many volunteer opportunities do you get where you not only give back and feel good about that, but you also enhance your core profession? I've found that the more time and energy you invest and the more you give back, actually, the more return you get on that investment of time. You're exposed to many new perspectives.

00:23:47:19 - 00:24:04:09
Alan
You hear about emerging challenges that maybe haven't hit you yet in your own job. And that's because you're working with some of the best marketers, not only in the country, but around the world. And that kind of learning is hard to replicate anywhere else. So I think that, to me is an incredible opportunity. And being a part of a member organization is free to you.

00:24:04:14 - 00:24:21:18
Alan
I think the same principle applies to skills. Marketers who are thriving today don't wait to be told to learn about AI or data or customer experience. They have a general curiosity and they really take ownership of that development early and lean into it. And the good news is you don't have to do it alone. That's exactly why the CMA exists.

00:24:21:18 - 00:24:42:06
Alan
As I mentioned before, join a council, find a mentor, take advantage of an event or a training and, you know, go meet new people that are going to help you be more successful. And I think lastly, I'd say the future belongs to marketers who keep learning, keep building relationships, and keep experimenting. You know, I always see marketing as a lifelong apprenticeship.

00:24:42:06 - 00:25:02:08
Alan
And actually the CMA gives you access to the perfect community and platform to really get more out of that apprenticeship. So what you do with it is really up to you. So my advice is keep being curious, keep building relationships, and really lean into that network because I think it's just an invaluable resource and you never know when you're going to need it, but when you need it, it's there to help you.

00:25:02:10 - 00:25:11:01
Alison
That's such great advice, Alan, and I love the concept of a lifelong apprenticeship. I also love the CMO of RBC led with compounding interest. Very appropriate.

00:25:11:03 - 00:25:15:17
Alan
Exactly. I guess I am a banker now.

00:25:15:19 - 00:25:17:14
Alison
It took 21 years.

00:25:17:16 - 00:25:18:15
Alan
Exactly.

00:25:18:17 - 00:25:43:07
Alison
So, Alan, it has been an absolute privilege working with you as Board Chair during this transformational period. The leadership, your vision, the partnership that you've brought have been instrumental in everything that we've accomplished together. So a huge heartfelt thank you. For our listeners, 2026 is going to be an absolutely incredible year. Whether you've joined our CMA Mentorship Program, you're attending our collection of events and the expanded CMA Marketing Week in May,

00:25:43:07 - 00:26:08:03
Alison
contributing to our different councils and committees or benefiting from our professional development offering, you're not just advancing your career, you're really helping shape marketing's future in Canada. And to build on the great advice that Alan shared, it is such a powerful way to expand your network, to constantly be learning and a really fun way to give back and help grow and future-proof marketing as well.

00:26:08:05 - 00:26:15:16
Alison
So thank you to all of our listeners for being a wonderful part of our CMA community.

00:26:15:18 - 00:26:28:08
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

What could you accomplish if an entire country was cheering for you? Building on Team Canada's 27-medal Paris success, Alison Simpson, President and CEO of the Canadian Marketing Association, speaks with Jacqueline Ryan, Chief Brand and Commercial Officer for the Canadian Olympic Committee and CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. This episode celebrates Team Canada athletes stories of resilience, perseverance, and excellence on the road to Milano Cortina 2026, and the importance of Marketing Partnership support on that journey.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:20
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:22 - 00:00:46:16
Alison
Canada is definitely having a sporty moment. From the Blue Jays extraordinary World Series run and women's rugby reaching the World Cup, to the Four Nations Cup victory and historic Olympic performances in Paris, Canadian athletes are capturing hearts and inspiring national pride like never before. There's truly no better time for this momentum as we head into the Milano Cortina Winter Olympics.

00:00:46:18 - 00:01:25:14
Alison
For today's episode, I am thrilled to welcome back Jacquie Ryan, Chief Brand and Commercial Officer for the Canadian Olympic Committee and CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. Since joining the COC in 2019, Jacquie has transformed Canada's engagement with the Olympic Movement, including earning recognition as the Canadian Marketing Association's Marketer of the year in 2024 for her exceptional work during the Paris Olympics. Jacquie's leadership during Paris 2024 set new standards for Olympic marketing success, with the Brave is Unbeatable campaign significantly increasing positive feelings towards Team Canada. 

00:01:25:14 - 00:01:51:20
Alison
Under her guidance, Canada Olympic House opened to the public for the first time during a Summer Olympics, attracting 17,000 visitors in Paris, while Team Canada Fan Fest events back home drew 50,000 visitors across the country. With over 25 years of experience, including RBC, where Jacquie helped drive marketing strategy for the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, and Scotiabank, where she secured the 800 million naming rights deal for Scotiabank Arena,

00:01:52:01 - 00:02:15:19
Alison
Jacquie brings exceptional expertise in sports marketing. As Canada approaches the Milano Cortina 2026 Winter Olympics with such strong momentum, amazing marketing partners and a nation ready and keen to rally behind our athletes, there's never been a more exciting time to be part of Team Canada. Welcome, Jacquie. It is an absolute pleasure to have you back to CMA Connect leading up to the Olympics.

00:02:15:21 - 00:02:20:10
Jacquie
Thank you, Alison, and thanks for the opportunity to join you here today. And really a great pleasure to be back.

00:02:20:16 - 00:02:36:14
Alison
So I'd love to start by looking back at Paris. The 2024 Olympics really did set new benchmarks across the board, from medal count to sponsorships and to national engagement. So what were the key learnings from Paris that have shaped your approach for Milano Cortina 2026?

00:02:36:20 - 00:03:00:13
Jacquie
Well, thanks for asking, Alison. Paris was, it was incredible. It was, the first normal games since we returned from Covid, because we had the two Covid games, Tokyo and Beijing. So a lot of expectations were high for Paris, for everyone, for fans, families, athletes, marketing partners or donors. And the games literally delivered across all expectations in the entire spectrum.

00:03:00:15 - 00:03:25:10
Jacquie
Team Canada won 27 medals in Paris. It's the second best result for Team Canada ever at a Summer games. Like eight golds, six silver, 11 bronze and three Olympic records. So we're super proud of the team. They really, really showed up well. And on top of that, over 70% of Canadians tuned in and they engaged with Team Canada, whether it be through our social channels, through CBC or Radio-Canada in Quebec.

00:03:25:12 - 00:03:50:03
Jacquie
So the games in Paris, they really raised the bar in many meaningful ways, and so many lessons that are directly shaping how we're approaching Milano Cortina now, in 2026. So the first thing it did really reinforced our belief that nothing really brings people together quite like sport. Olympics are an incredible, unifying platform that really allows us all to put our differences aside.

00:03:50:05 - 00:04:21:12
Jacquie
Secondly, it just reminded us the power of athlete for storytelling. So fans engaged most deeply when they could see the people behind the podiums. They could see their journeys, their resilience. The community roots through moments of humanity, the whole experience leading up to and including the games. So we'll continue to prioritize these athlete narratives, being really, really authentic in the storytelling from their voice, and keep Canadians connected with these athletes and learning about Team Canada athletes well before the opening ceremony.

00:04:21:12 - 00:04:45:14
Jacquie
So when they arrive at the games, Canadians are really well poised to really understand the journey and know our athletes. And then our Brave is Unbeatable, our marketing campaign was a big success. We built a lot of equity in this platform through Paris and so working with The Hive, we decided to use it again, basically as a springboard to drive engagement with Canadians heading in now to the Cortina games.

00:04:45:16 - 00:05:07:10
Jacquie
The platform, as you'll recall, really leans into the idea of Canadians seeing themselves in the athletes. These athletes are competing. They're on the global stage representing Canada, but they're still human. They have our similar struggles, they go through all sorts of things in their journey, and all of that can lend itself both as inspiration for all of us, and connection so that we feel connected to the athletes.

00:05:07:10 - 00:05:41:04
Jacquie
So creatively, we've expanded this iteration of storytelling across far more athletes, representing the real vast diversity of Team Canada athletes from across Canada, sharing their stories, of course, strategically across different placements and channels and in different ways. So that's definitely something that was a big success and we're building on. Another is that Paris really demonstrated that what it looks like when marketing partnerships are truly integrated. Not just visible. They become part of the fan experience, part of the Canadian experience with these athletes and part of the athlete support system.

00:05:41:06 - 00:06:16:10
Jacquie
So for Milano now, we've built collaborative, values-aligned marketing partnerships that contribute directly to performance, athlete well-being, fan engagement, rather than simply sponsorship presence. So, I mean, we've known this for years, but it really came together well for Paris, and wait until you see the marketing partner campaigns for Milano Cortina. And then finally, Paris really showed us that major games like the Olympic Games can be platforms for purpose, from sustainability to inclusion to national pride.

00:06:16:12 - 00:06:29:22
Jacquie
That lands really guides how we tell our story, how we support our athletes, how partners activate, and all of this helps bring Canadians together, and so we really look forward to all of that coming together in a few short weeks as we head into Milano Cortina.

00:06:30:00 - 00:07:06:00
Alison
That's outstanding, Jacquie, thanks so much. I love that you're prioritizing the athlete content and bringing to life their whole selves. It's so inspiring to see the exceptional athletic conditioning and expertise that they bring, but it can sometimes be hard for us mere mortals to relate to. So understanding some of the real life challenges that they're facing, and seeing their 360-view of their lives helps us dream even more about how we can be inspired by them, both athletically and just from sheer perseverance and grit and determination.

00:07:06:00 - 00:07:27:22
Alison
So I love that. And the marketing partnerships, I'm looking forward to drilling into that a little bit more. You've built an impressive roster of 39 marketing partners for Milano Cortina, so I'd love you to share how some of your longest standing partners, like RBC, are activating differently this time, and what new partners are bringing to the table that hasn't existed before.

00:07:28:00 - 00:07:51:06
Jacquie
Thank you for the question. You could well imagine we're very proud of the 39 marketing partners who are helping power Team Canada toward Milano Cortina. What's exciting is both how long-standing partners and new partners are evolving, what partnership really means, as I referenced earlier. You know, essentially our marketing partners will look at their partnership with us as a way to do a few things.

00:07:51:07 - 00:08:18:09
Jacquie
One, they want to support Team Canada directly. They want to celebrate the athletes. They want to tell the athletes stories. They want to engage Canadians. They want engage fans from coast to coast to coast. And really importantly, just as importantly, they really want to help leave a legacy, a lasting legacy of inspiration for the next generation. And I think those four components really drive a lot of what our marketing partners are up to in their campaigns leading up to Milano Cortina.

00:08:18:11 - 00:08:41:15
Jacquie
I think you know this, but I'll just remind you that the Canadian Olympic Committee is a not for profit organization. And I mention that because we're almost exclusively privately funded by our marketing partners. So Team Canada quite literally could not get to the Games without our marketing partners. They're literally the engine behind Team Canada. This investment is truly a solid return on their dollars

00:08:41:15 - 00:09:11:12
Jacquie
right back into the sports system supporting Olympic athletes' journey. So from its inception, all the way through to the podium. So lots of things around what they're doing is supporting the broader sport system, but importantly, they're looking for a return on their investment. And it's more than marketing. It's about an investment in the athlete journey. And in addition to that, working partners by virtue of being with us, they have access to the largest addressable audience for any sport property in Canada, where 70% of Canadians are engaging, they're watching or sharing.

00:09:11:13 - 00:09:35:12
Jacquie
And from a marketing perspective, as you can well agree, that's an incredibly efficient marketing platform. And so that further demonstrates the efficiency of their investment. So I think our commercial momentum over the last few months highlights this, that over the last little while, we've signed ten new marketing partners. Like that's in this year. And it's a testament to the investment and the power of Team Canada as a marketing platform.

00:09:35:14 - 00:09:59:07
Jacquie
We've never, ever signed so many sponsors, that many marketing partners in that period of time. And so the ten new ones, you likely saw we announced Tim Hortons as a new marketing partner. Really excited about that. We also launched Intact, Homewood Health, Nulo Pet Food, GoodLife, Maple Leaf Foods, Hillberg & Berk, The GIST, CALA. And there's one more I can't tell you about yet.

00:09:59:09 - 00:10:24:00
Jacquie
So we're really, really excited about all of these new marketing partners joining us and really rallying Canadians behind Team Canada. And, you know, I continue to think we seriously have the best marketing jobs in this country at the Canadian Olympic Committee because we support the strategies and campaigns of 39 brands. Thirty nine top brands. You know, some of our longstanding partners RBC, Bell, Canadian Tire, Lululemon, Petro Canada, Air Canada, like the list is long.

00:10:24:00 - 00:10:46:11
Jacquie
So the job truly is quite a privilege. And so this year, we're seeing most of the majority of the partners all undertaking very large, fully integrated, marketing campaigns. Many have also partnered with CBC, which is important because that's the platform that tells the story through broadcast, and so they're really leveraging the broadcast to tell their stories.

00:10:46:13 - 00:11:07:05
Jacquie
And, of note, and this is a really important point that the majority of these partners have signed athlete agreements. So there are athletes that are supported by virtue of their marketing campaigns. And that's over 90 individual partnerships with Canadian Olympians. And that's an incredible number to highlight the stories that we were talking about earlier in their campaigns.

00:11:07:05 - 00:11:32:16
Jacquie
So excited about all of that. You know, there's lots to talk about and lots of partners that we could go on about their marketing campaigns. I can highlight a few. Firstly, I mentioned Lululemon. Lululemon is the official outfitter of Team Canada. They are also participating in the CBC broadcast. This is their third Olympic Games as Team Canada outfitter. Athletes are also a focal point of their campaign.

00:11:32:18 - 00:12:07:00
Jacquie
They have many athlete partnerships, including Sidney Crosby. And we revealed the athlete kit that I'm wearing today, on November 18th. And they've had a series of retail drops ever since and really building momentum toward the opening ceremony, which will be important. Then, of course, Tim Hortons announced last week, they are also participating in the CBC broadcast, and they have lots of athlete partnerships, and also lots of fan engagement ideas, whether it's collectible Team Canada co-branded cups, there's trading cards, there's a contest to win a trip to Milano Cortina.

00:12:07:00 - 00:12:28:10
Jacquie
The list is long. So really excited about partnering with them. They're going to partner with us at Team Canada Fan Fest. You know, and another point I would make is that I'm talking a lot about marketing campaigns here. But in addition to the campaigns, there are a number of marketing partners who are doing like real community-based initiatives, driving important positive change in the sport system.

00:12:28:15 - 00:12:57:04
Jacquie
So two notable examples would be, we have a program called Bell Starting Line. So Bell initiated this. It's a program designed to get newcomer Canadian youth engaged in sport. So we're out there in the community really giving newcomers an opportunity where they didn't have access to sport, all because Bell has started to invest in this area. Equally, RBC has the RBC Training Ground program. Now it's in its 10th year, and that's a talent identification program that really looks for the next Olympian.

00:12:57:04 - 00:13:16:18
Jacquie
And now what they've done is taken their financial resources to cast a much wider net so that there's more diverse access to the program, which just creates a better pipeline and supports a better Team Canada. So really, really proud of all of these programs. I mean, there's Canadian Tire, again, the list goes on and on, Sobeys, but we're proud of the partnerships

00:13:16:18 - 00:13:20:06
Jacquie
and we frankly could not do any of this without them.

00:13:20:08 - 00:13:38:08
Alison
Those are such powerful examples, and the reminder that you're not for profit is a really important one. So when we look at the 39 marketing partners that you have, to your point, Canada wouldn't have an Olympic team without them. It's great for their brands, it's great for their business. But it is so important and powerful for our country and our athletes as well.

00:13:38:08 - 00:13:58:18
Alison
So huge congratulations for landing ten new partners in such a short period of time as well. It's phenomenal growth. Now, you mentioned a bit earlier that you've brought back the Brave is Unbeatable campaign, and I'd love you to share a little bit more about the success of that, and also what else you're doing to market the Olympics to Canadians.

00:13:58:19 - 00:14:21:18
Jacquie
Yes. So we're again, we're pleased to bring Brave is  Unbeatable back. We do this in partnership with The Hive and CBC and Radio-Canada. So with Brave is Unbeatable, we're not just marketing the games where we see our position is really connecting Canadians to the overall power of sport. It's about inspiration. So the campaign really focuses on the idea that bravery isn't just about standing on the podium, it's about the everyday courage

00:14:21:18 - 00:14:48:17
Jacquie
it takes to train, to persevere, to represent your country and kind of put everything on the line. So that spirit really resonates deeply with Canadians, reflects the values that we're proud to stand behind here at Team Canada. So we really love the Brave is Unbeatable portrays Canada as this resilient, unflappable nation and aims to build energy, build excitement as Canadians across the country really rally together to support Team Canada coming up in Milano Cortina.

00:14:48:17 - 00:15:10:07
Jacquie
And frankly, what a moment to be doing this. So we're really, really excited about the whole Canadian pride that's built right into it. So from a marketing perspective, we're really doing three things. First, we're telling athlete stories, as I said, in a more immersive way, more emotional across digital, broadcast, social, community, so Canadians can see themselves in the journey, not just the results.

00:15:10:12 - 00:15:36:05
Jacquie
And then second, we're ensuring that Canadians can participate in the Olympic movement. So whether that be through Team Canada fan festivals, partner activations, grass root community engagement, digital experiences, it's all about bringing people closer to the Team Canada family, and we're creating more touch points for Canadians to feel part of something national and what we know to be true, unifying. So, you know, we launched our campaign together with the CBC last fall.

00:15:36:05 - 00:16:00:23
Jacquie
We launched it at 100 days out from Milan, we need to mark that point in time. And it's a 360 campaign. It's deliberately timed, it integrated to create the greatest impact heading into the Games. Three months before the games is typically when it's a good time to remind Canadians of the journey of Team Canada, and our goal is to build national momentum, generate excitement, energy, and essentially, this is a really important part,

00:16:00:23 - 00:16:22:08
Jacquie
set the stage for then the incredible marketing campaigns that follow from our 39 marketing partners. So we really feel it's our job to remind Canadians and raise awareness for the Games are coming and look out for Team Canada. And then, so we do the the job of really setting the stage and then our marketing partners layer in with all the stories that they tell and all of their campaigns.

00:16:22:10 - 00:16:51:06
Jacquie
So that's essentially what we're doing. I did actually want to also point out that we have overall brand marketing initiatives with the Canadian Olympic Committee. We're also undertaking really important efforts to raise awareness for our foundation. That's the Canadian Olympic Foundation, and we're encouraging Canadians to join us and support these incredible athletes through these campaigns. And so what we're essentially doing is we run the Brave is Unbeatable campaign, which as it gets closer to the Games, we'll add 

00:16:51:06 - 00:17:15:16
Jacquie
Donate Now to join Team Canada message. And then also Maple Leaf Foods will be doing a campaign with us. It's called Double Your Impact and it's all about they're doing a matching donation campaign to encourage Canadians to make a donation to the Canadian Olympic Foundation, and they will match as well. So really excited about those two opportunities to continue to raise awareness for the foundation, and really encourage Canadians to come along with us.

00:17:15:20 - 00:17:40:22
Jacquie
So I think that's essentially what we're doing. And then, you know, as I mentioned, we're working closely with our 39 marketing partners because they extend the campaign's reach and meaning. So ultimately, our campaign is about inspiring the country, strengthening Canadians and their connection with Team Canada and building excitement and pride as we head into Milano Cortina. So with that, I would just say be sure to follow us on all of our socials.

00:17:40:22 - 00:17:55:01
Jacquie
Download the Team Canada app, check out the athletes' stories on our website, listen and follow our podcast. And really do your best to engage with Team Canada. Get to know them before the games and then jump in and be all in during the games.

00:17:55:03 - 00:18:15:12
Alison
Thank thanks so much, Jacquie. It's great to see that all of the Canadians like me, who won't have the opportunity to experience the Olympics in person, will have so many great experiences through your organization, but also through your all your partner organizations to engage and really come together as a country in celebration of our athletes. So, excited to hear how we can do that.

00:18:15:14 - 00:18:27:03
Alison
So you also mentioned that Canada is at the intersection of passion and purpose with a truly impressive percentage of Canadians that are really engaging in the Olympic movement. So what do you think has led to the strong movement?

00:18:27:05 - 00:18:48:15
Jacquie
Canada is absolutely having a moment. Canadian pride is at an all-time high, there's no question. And in the face of crisis, Canadians have really rallied, particularly in and through sport. So a new national pride is emerging. Canadians care very deeply about sport. It's not just for the medals but for what it represents. It represents resilience and excellence and community,

00:18:48:19 - 00:19:13:22
Jacquie
and many of the things I've spoken about already. And the belief that when our athletes excel, the country rises with them. So over the past several years, we've also experienced incredible moments across multiple sports and generations of athletes. And those wins, they reminded Canadians what it feels like to rally together, sheer national pride, and see ourselves reflected on the world stage in a really positive and unifying way.

00:19:14:00 - 00:19:34:23
Jacquie
And we've been, as I've mentioned, very, very intentional about telling those stories, focusing on the athlete journey to values, authenticity, not just the results. And this is building a deeper connection. So Canadians don't just watch Team Canada, they feel invested in it. So in terms of directly answering your question, how we're capitalizing, we're really doing that in three ways.

00:19:35:01 - 00:19:57:11
Jacquie
Absolutely, firstly, making sure that we do our very best to make the Olympic experience more accessible, whether that's through digital storytelling, community outreach, and content that brings Canadians closer to the athletes. Secondly, we're partnering with organizations across Canada to extend that pride into meaningful engagement, wellness, youth development, national celebrations, anything that unites people from coast to coast to coast.

00:19:57:15 - 00:20:29:19
Jacquie
And third, we've always been a purpose-led organization. That's absolutely our DNA. So we're ensuring that all of our activities bring this to life. Aligning the Olympic movement with purpose. So Canadians respond strongly when they see sport driving positive impact, inclusion and inspiration, which comes from watching Team Canada excel on the world stage. So I think this combination of, momentum, very positive momentum, meaningful storytelling, very purposeful engagement is fuelling such strong national connection.

00:20:29:21 - 00:20:34:12
Jacquie
And it's what absolutely will help carry that energy proudly into Milano Cortina.

00:20:34:14 - 00:20:43:12
Alison
So the Winter Olympics have always held special significance for Canadians. So with days to go before Milano Cortina begins, who are the Canadian athletes to watch?

00:20:43:14 - 00:21:13:01
Jacquie
That's a tough question. They're all great! These Games are going to be incredible. So there's a lot of pre-work that's underway. And a reminder for everybody the dates. So the Games themselves are February 6th to the 22nd. There'll be 116 medal events across 16 sport disciplines, and 93 countries are participating. The events are spread across four different zones, from the city to the mountains, all with the goal of sustainability and not erecting brand new facilities that don't have a future purpose. 

00:21:13:01 - 00:21:32:21
Jacquie
For Team Canada, we're going to have 206 or 207 athletes also, still TBD as athletes continue to qualify their spots actually, but in and around that number. And then a ton of support staff and Mission Team we call them, that's like myself, the staff that goes over to support. And also these will be the most gender-balanced edition in history of the Olympic Winter games.

00:21:32:23 - 00:21:49:09
Jacquie
So really excited to see the progress there. And I think I mentioned this before, but this is a return to open games, as we call them, that there are no Covid restrictions. So this is really important since on the winter side, so of course Paris was the first on the summer side, but this is the first on the winter side.

00:21:49:09 - 00:22:14:22
Jacquie
So we're imagining packed venues, the roar of the crowd, family and friends will finally be on hand to support after missing out on Beijing. You know, to help drive the excitement, NHLers are coming for the first time since Sochi in 2014. PWHLers are coming for the first time. Currently, snow and ice sports across the gamut are doing really, really well on the World Cup circuit, which tends to be the qualifications on the way to the Games.

00:22:15:00 - 00:22:40:07
Jacquie
Truly, they're poised to do their very best. We're excelling in so many sports right now, whether it be Mikael Kingsbury, a freestyle skier, just won his 100th World Cup, hundredth, 100th gold medal and a World Cup. So we're really excited about people like Mik Kingsbury. Again, like the PWHL women, we've got a number of short track and long track speed skaters, William Dandjinou out of Quebec is really poised to do very well on short track.

00:22:40:09 - 00:23:04:19
Jacquie
But Marion Thenault, also a freestyle skier who does aerials, also poised to do well. The list is long and really exciting to talk about them. Piper Gilles and Paul Poirier, they are ice dance champions. Cynthia Appiah, a bobsleigh powerhouse and, Reece Howden, who's a ski cross athlete. So we're going to really see some strengths across all of these sports.

00:23:04:19 - 00:23:24:12
Jacquie
So on the ice, on the snow, really look out for what I hope is a wonderful performance. So I do highly suggest you follow them on socials, certainly engage with them on our channels and hear all about their journeys. We keep saying it, and it becomes more true every day. The Olympic Games really do bring people together like nothing else can. And we think the world needs these Games.

00:23:24:18 - 00:23:42:13
Jacquie
Canada needs them. Our country once again is going to come together and support the Olympic movement and really be inspired by the power of sport and inspire the next generation. So really, the power of these Games is really immeasurable. And, I'm really, really excited that the athletes now have their time to shine.

00:23:42:15 - 00:24:04:04
Alison
So I couldn't agree more. The time is right for Canada and the world to come together. So the timing for the Olympics as a great unifier is wonderful to say the least. Now I want to go a little bit deeper on all of the ways that Canadians across the country can engage with the Olympics, cheer on all the super-talented athletes that we are sending to the Games.

00:24:04:04 - 00:24:10:23
Alison
So we talked about Fan Fest, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that for our listeners and also some of the other activations, other plans.

00:24:11:01 - 00:24:26:13
Jacquie
Yeah, for sure. I'd love to talk about, I mean, the reality is that most Canadians won't be in Italy. I do have that good fortune, but most won't be. But there are loads of opportunities to engage with the Olympic Movement and Milano Cortina, because our goal is to make sure that Canadians feel connected to the Olympic experience.

00:24:26:13 - 00:24:47:11
Jacquie
So one of our core priorities for Milano Cortina is ensuring that Canadians feel a part of Team Canada wherever they are in the country. So firstly, we're bringing the Games to communities across Canada through our Team Canada Fan Fest, which I'll tell you about a little bit more in a minute, and fan engagement experiences. Team Canada Fan Fest is a free family festival,

00:24:47:15 - 00:25:12:19
Jacquie
it's a fantastic opportunity for Canadians to come together in the community, cheer together, celebrate what I'm sure will be iconic moments as we will be running the broadcast live at these events. Try their hand at a few winter sports, including skating, and feel that sense of national unity right there, real time. So it's really where the country will come together to experience the games back here in Canada as one team.

00:25:12:21 - 00:25:36:18
Jacquie
So we'll be in Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver and Montreal all in February and really excited to, you know, have this opportunity to bring the community together, kid-friendly activities, hands-on experience, Olympic athletes and it really will be a wonderful, wonderful opportunity in these communities. And then with that, our marketing partners are coming along with us.

00:25:36:18 - 00:26:20:00
Jacquie
So at Team Canada Fan Fest, you'll see, all sorts of activations from Bell Canada, Canadian Tire, Petro Canada, Tim Hortons, GoodLife, Nulo, Maple Leaf Foods, Hillberg & Berk, Pilliterri Estate Wines, Access Storage and Labatt. They'll all be present there. So really helping bring these activations to life. And then I would say further, as I mentioned before, our marketing partners across the country, they're helping extend that excitement to everyday life through their community activations, all sorts of retail, in-store, in-restaurant celebrations, programming for young people and kids, fan contests, win a trip to the Games, all sorts of engagements on social and digital, and loads of opportunity for Canadians to share in the pride

00:26:20:00 - 00:26:39:15
Jacquie
and joy of cheering for Team Canada. And then, of course, a big call out to our really important partners on CBC. So, best place to watch the Games is on CBC or Radio-Canada. And then follow along with some of our other marketing partners, which includes The Globe and Mail and The GIST. So there are there will be many opportunities.

00:26:39:15 - 00:26:57:16
Jacquie
I think if you're following us on social, that's where you can find out more about this. So even if Canadians aren't in Italy, they'll still be deeply part of Milano Cortina  and Team Canada, that we connect emotionally, digitally in their communities through Team Canada FanFest, ideally united in support of, our team to cheer them on.

00:26:57:18 - 00:27:20:13
Alison
And we have a lot to cheer and look forward to with Milano Cortina. And when we look beyond the Olympics, it's a big, big year and big time for sport in Canada. We've got FIFA coming to Canada this year, we've got the LA Olympics coming in 2028. So how are all of these significant sporting events helping build towards something bigger for Canadian sport and national engagement?

00:27:20:15 - 00:27:41:20
Jacquie
Well, that's a great question, and I think we're going to see this Canadian pride continue to grow and build. 2026 is poised really to be a landmark year, I think, for Canadian sport. It sort of, is so integral to who we are as Canadians and unites us more than ever in the face of unprecedented challenges. I mean, we were all captivated by the Blue Jays' thrilling World Series run.

00:27:41:20 - 00:28:08:19
Jacquie
And soon we'll be glued to our TVs or mobile devices for Milano Cortina, and then shortly following after that we'll be excited about FIFA World Cup coming to Canada. So really an incredible year, and it will be a great opportunity to see that the Canadian athletes are actually defying all odds. They're shining on the world stage, despite a sports system that actually is struggling financially, as much as again, the Canadian Olympic Committee I mentioned is a privately-funded organization.

00:28:08:21 - 00:28:33:07
Jacquie
So with a national sport organization, so an example of a national sport organization would be anything from Freestyle Skiing to Alpine Skiing to Hockey Canada. The list is long. Summer would be, you know, Tennis Canada as an example. So all of the individual national sport organizations, they're facing a dramatic funding cut, and they're not being supported in a way that they had historically been supported from the Federal Government.

00:28:33:07 - 00:28:51:10
Jacquie
So it's the challenge of that is it's making sport less accessible for many young athletes, from grassroots all the way to high performance. And and when you see these incredible events and these athletes perform on the world stage, it absolutely inspires that next generation. And we just really we need to make sure that we have access for the next generation,

00:28:51:10 - 00:29:13:21
Jacquie
so they can they can really, take that inspiration and turn that into an ability to to experience all those positive experiences that you and I have had in sport, and make it accessible. It's a big year. It'll be a big year for, for sport in Canada. And hopefully there's a way to parlay that into partnering with the federal government to really modernize Canada's sport system.

00:29:13:21 - 00:29:34:02
Jacquie
So there's a there's an opportunity here. And as the COC, we're going to continue to play a leadership role in advocating for this, advocating for safe and inclusive sport for all Canadians. And we will continue to be a strong business as I've talked about throughout this podcast. But the broader sport system is where we need some help.

00:29:34:04 - 00:29:57:12
Jacquie
And then lastly, I have to point out, I know if you asked me about 2026, but I'm going to talk about 2028 and that's the LA Olympic Games. So Los Angeles will be hosting the Olympic Summer games in 2028. And believe it or not, I have ten files on my desk where we're already working on that, so it will be such an exciting Summer Games, in essence, kind of like a North American Games.

00:29:57:12 - 00:30:18:15
Jacquie
It's not quite like they're here in Canada, but they're just down south. And we've already been there a few times to start the planning. And I can tell you LA is really excited to welcome us with open arms and bring in that competitive spirit with Team Canada. So look out for some very cool stuff on the journey to LA 2028.

00:30:18:17 - 00:30:43:23
Alison
Thanks, Jacquie. I hadn't appreciated how a lot of the sporting associations are struggling with financing, and it makes two programs we talked about earlier with RBC and Bell, where they're really ensuring that Canadian emerging athletes across the country, despite their financial means, have a chance to get the sporting opportunities and to get the nurturing and coaching they need to help represent Canada on the world stage.

00:30:44:00 - 00:31:05:16
Alison
And even if they don't get that far, as you said, sport has played such a pivotal role in my life, in your life and the professional benefits you get from it, the personal benefits, the skills it teaches you is so important for every Canadian at every age, especially the next generation. So thank you to your partners and thank you to the COC for really helping enable that.

00:31:05:18 - 00:31:19:15
Alison
As you know, I end each episode by asking my guests to share a piece of career advice that you would offer to listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps and ultimately get into those CMO and senior leadership roles. So I would love to hear your parting advice.

00:31:19:17 - 00:31:44:07
Jacquie
You know, I struggle with this question because I actually think the answer is kind of simple. It really is be kind, be curious and show up and work hard. I really believe that if you can find a way to do that, being kind obviously is important. Just in day to day from a relationship-building perspective. Makes people want to work with you. Curiosity is so important

00:31:44:07 - 00:32:05:17
Jacquie
to learn. We need to be relentless learners. Your learning journey is long. Your career is long. It's a long road, so be curious and learn and work hard because that will differentiate you. And I think whether it's being kind, being curious and working hard, don't worry, the right people are always watching, so you don't have to be in a rush.

00:32:05:20 - 00:32:29:22
Jacquie
You don't have to worry about what your business card says. Just make sure that you enjoy what you're doing. Follow that mantra and the right people will see you, they'll find you, they'll mentor you, they'll promote you, they'll engage you, and they'll bring you in. And the opportunities will come, I promise. So I really think it's that simple. And, if you stick to that, I think the future is very bright, particularly for marketing.

00:32:30:00 - 00:32:48:12
Alison
I think that is exceptional advice. And sometimes, often the simplest advice is the most powerful. It can also be tough to follow. So I absolutely echo your advice and encourage everyone listening to take that away and action it. And you're absolutely right. The right people will notice you. Opportunities will open up for sure. So Jacquie, thanks for a great conversation.

00:32:48:12 - 00:32:55:23
Alison
Absolutely looking forward to cheering on Team Canada in the coming weeks. And I hope you have a wonderful time being on site.

00:32:56:00 - 00:33:05:21
Jacquie
Thank you, Alison, and thank you for inviting me on. Thank you for your leadership in marketing and we're really looking forward to cheering on Team Canada.

00:33:05:23 - 00:33:18:13
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Interested in boosting your sales by 24%? Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Jenna Landi, Director of Global Brand Research at Pinterest, to explore how positive environments drive measurable business results, with advertising showing 94% more impact on purchase intent. Jenna reveals why brands don't have to choose between positivity and performance. She introduces 'ambient chaos' as the driver of consumer shifts, shares Pinterest's 88% trend-forecasting accuracy, and reveals that Canadian Gen Z over-indexes certain trends at 5.5 times the global rate. Plus insights on AI, visual search, and building safer digital spaces, with actionable strategies for authentic brand connections.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:17
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:19 - 00:00:53:01
Alison
When we're surrounded by an increasingly divisive and negative cultural landscape, finding authentic positivity can actually feel revolutionary. And it turns out it's can also be incredibly good for business, as marketers are grappling with building genuine connections in a digital world. Research from Pinterest proves that positive environments don't just feel better. They deliver measurable business results. For today's episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Jenna Landy, the Director of Global Brand Research of Pinterest.

00:00:53:03 - 00:01:34:07
Alison
Jenna leads Pinterest's marketing research organization, leveraging the platform's unique Taste Graph technology to really understand how users discover, engage with, and act on inspiration. Her groundbreaking research on positivity and advertising has shown that campaigns infused with positive content can deliver up to 24% increases in sales. Definitely proof that doing good and doing well are not mutually exclusive. With the Master of Science of Behavioural Science from the London School of Economics and extensive experience at Nielsen and Google, where she was a founding member of the Human Truth Team, Jenna brings both academic rigour and practical marketing expertise to understanding consumer behaviour.

00:01:34:09 - 00:01:57:15
Alison
At Pinterest, she is on the forefront of identifying shifting consumer behaviours, including what her team calls the ambient chaos of our current world. What a great description, as well as its impact on everything from design preferences to purchase decisions. Her work spans AI integration, visual search, innovation, and the critical mission of building a safer, more inspirational internet. Welcome, Jenna.

00:01:57:15 - 00:02:01:05
Alison
It is an absolute pleasure to have you join us today on CMA connect.

00:02:01:06 - 00:02:08:09
Jenna
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me Alison. I'm so happy to be here and thank you for that really kind intro. This is exciting.

00:02:08:11 - 00:02:19:01
Alison
I'm excited as well. So Jenna, I'd love you to start with your journey into marketing and research and really help our listeners understand what drew you to specialize in understanding consumer behaviour?

00:02:19:03 - 00:02:44:10
Jenna
Absolutely. I was that annoying kid who never stopped asking questions. And I realized in university that I actually may be able to turn it into a career. So through roles in brand strategy, media buying, digital analytics, and deep global consumer insight, work, I've always been drawn to data and digital data in particular, and just how it offers a really unique window into consumer behaviour.

00:02:44:12 - 00:03:06:01
Jenna
I joined Pinterest almost eight years ago now because our data, I believe, is the most unique in the industry. We have signals around both interest and intent. So searches and saves. And so myself and my team, we have this really unique sandbox to explore consumer behaviour from many different angles. And it's always also fun when you can live your work.

00:03:06:05 - 00:03:13:19
Jenna
I am a peer myself, and I really appreciate and value the inspiration and creativity that it brings to my life.

00:03:13:21 - 00:03:24:19
Alison
Curiosity for me is such an important priority for anyone to succeed in a marketing career. And you've also given hope to all the parents that are listening with those super inquisitive kids at home that it right off.

00:03:24:21 - 00:03:36:00
Jenna
Oh, totally. I have two young girls myself, and I definitely am living some karma of kids that are extremely inquisitive. So hang on with them. Maybe it'll pay off later.

00:03:36:02 - 00:03:55:10
Alison
And it will definitely pay off. So as a glass half full person myself, I am very intrigued by your research on positivity in advertising, especially into what can be a very divisive cultural landscape. You found that positive environments drive tangible business results. So I'd love you to share some of those findings. And what surprised you most about the research?

00:03:55:12 - 00:04:18:20
Jenna
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that we were really hoping to find and really relieved and excited to find is that, you know, validating our gut, which is that advertising on brand safe and positive platforms isn't just safer, but it can be profitable. It can be good for business. And what we found is even goes beyond that, which is that users are more engaged with ads when they appear in positive spaces.

00:04:18:21 - 00:04:41:10
Jenna
So we partnered with Magna, and their research showed us that ads in positive environments truly do perform better. So we looked at the impact of brand safety on metrics like engagement, trustworthiness, intent, and even results to demonstrate that brands don't really have to choose between positivity and performance. I think you said earlier, you know, too often this feels like a trade off.

00:04:41:10 - 00:05:08:15
Jenna
And we were so excited in this research to really validate that that's not the case in these, that positive platforms are 94% more impactful in driving purchase intent. And so we talk a lot about brand safety. We've spoken about brand safety for years, but we hadn't yet put numbers behind the business impact. And so these results show that safe and positive platforms aren't just preferred by users, but they also perform for advertisers.

00:05:08:16 - 00:05:36:14
Jenna
So in my simulations, the same creative, same finite budget generated up to 24% more sales when brands incorporated view-ability and positivity into their media buying strategies. So that real alchemy of both view-ability and positivity. And so we understand that advertisers are all seeking a competitive edge in today's marketplace. And we really believe that this research represents a fresh opportunity of where to find it.

00:05:36:14 - 00:05:48:17
Jenna
So if I can ask listeners today to consider one thing, it would be really consider and evaluate how the platforms you're partnering with offer that positive space and offer that potential for competitive edge.

00:05:48:19 - 00:06:06:09
Alison
That is a very compelling case for why positivity is absolutely the right approach, and clearly it's a great advantage from a Pinterest perspective. I also hope that other platforms are hearing and seeing the data and evolving as well would make the world certainly a better and more open place for sure.

00:06:06:11 - 00:06:15:22
Jenna
So I would love that as an outcome of this research, please. Yes, an industry call to action to make the internet altogether a more safe and wellbeing supportive environment.

00:06:16:00 - 00:06:32:14
Alison
So Jenny, your team's been studying what you call the ambient chaos, which is a term I absolutely love, and certainly our current world is experiencing that and how consumer behaviour are shifting as a result. Can you explain the concept and share some of the trends that you're seeing emerge from this research?

00:06:32:16 - 00:07:15:10
Jenna
Yeah, absolutely. We kicked off this research to really understand the why behind some of the trends that we're calling. And Pinterest predicts this year, which I'm excited to get into in a little bit. But ambient chaos is a term my team coined to describe that constant background noise of uncertainty, divisiveness, and negativity that surrounds us today. And so one of my amazing colleagues talked about it as the emotional weather that we're all living in and an ongoing basis, there's just this constant level of low level stress and fragmentation that has become the backdrop of daily life, and it's really fundamentally changing how consumers behave, what they seek out, how they express themselves and so when

00:07:15:10 - 00:07:41:23
Jenna
we mapped that into our trends, what we found is that one of the most fascinating shifts is this movement away from stark minimalism towards bold maximalism. As we detected in our trends this year, as people are seeking out new ways of self-expression and really grounding in their interests and passions. And so, you know, for years we've been told that clean, simple, minimal design was the pinnacle of sophistication.

00:07:41:23 - 00:08:05:15
Jenna
But consumers are really now gravitating towards more of that authentic self-expression that represents who they are. And we're seeing this everywhere from home decor that's rich with colour and pattern to fashion choices that really make some bold statements rather than blend in. I think it's beautiful that people are saying, I'm here, I matter, and I'm not going to disappear into the background.

00:08:05:15 - 00:08:19:16
Jenna
And so for marketers, the key takeaway is that consumers want to stand out and that they're seeking brands and experiences that help them vocalize and represent their truest selves versus, you know, not not wanting to conform to the sea of sameness.

00:08:19:18 - 00:08:36:13
Alison
It's a sunny, beautiful day in Toronto today, but we've just come off like a week of gray, so embracing that maximalism and vibrancy is even more important on those gray days. Now, are there any brands that are early to this consumer insight and really embracing?

00:08:36:15 - 00:09:04:15
Jenna
Yeah, absolutely. We've had actually amazing launch partners in L'Oreal and Hellmann's, just to name a few, who are really excited to run with these trends and help bring their products to life. One of the things that I love about these trends is that many of them are cross category, and so it gives a beauty brand like L'Oreal, an opportunity to activate against one of our trends called Gimme Gummy, which is super colourful.

00:09:04:15 - 00:09:34:21
Jenna
And yes, it has a beauty application, but it gives L'Oreal a wedge an opportunity for relevance in categories far beyond beauty. Because Gimme Gummy, as a beauty trend, it's a fashion trend. It's a flavour and food and beverage trend. And so what we see at a lot of the unique approach of Pinterest predicts trends is that they are cross category and so it's giving a brand an opportunity to expand outside of sort of their core competency that they they've known and loved for so long.

00:09:34:21 - 00:09:51:18
Jenna
And so just want to give huge kudos to those brands who have been launch partners with us and are helping bring that to market and excited to see how how the relationships they're building with these consumers and these new trend product areas continue to evolve.

00:09:51:20 - 00:10:04:16
Alison
And you lead Pinterest trend for forecasting and revealing fascinating insights about how trends behave differently on Pinterest compared to other platforms. What do you think makes Pinterest unique for trend identification as well as longevity?

00:10:04:18 - 00:10:28:22
Jenna
Yeah, our trend forecasting is different because we're capturing people in their leaned in planning mindset, not their passive scrolling mindset. So it really boils down to the way that people use Pinterest. They use it to plan. And so we get that unique insight into their consumer behaviour, this window into the future. And as a result, we have an 88% accuracy rate over the past six years in predicting trends.

00:10:28:23 - 00:10:52:10
Jenna
And so the reason we do that is because the data that is the foundation for Pinterest predicts comes from the over 600 million people that come to Pinterest each month, specifically to search and shop for that next big thing. And so we again have this really highly accurate window into consumer intent through their active curation. Over every month, users make 80 billion queries on Pinterest.

00:10:52:10 - 00:11:20:17
Jenna
And over time, we've actually recently crossed the 15 billion boards saved mark. And so when someone saves a pin about Glacier aesthetic or opera themed parties, they're actively curating their future reality and what they wish to see come true. And so our trend analysis goes far beyond search queries. We started our trend practice on search queries, but now we actually use a visual mapping technology made possible through AI to analyze the complete visual picture.

00:11:20:17 - 00:11:49:05
Jenna
So the colours, the aesthetics and the styles that people are gravitating towards. So when we see searches for something like Icy Blue up 50% and frosted makeup up 150%, we're not just tracking those keywords. We're actually able to take a really comprehensive approach to identifying the entire aesthetic shift towards cool blue as a trend sophistication. So, you know, trends on Pinterest have staying power because they're rooted in this genuine intent.

00:11:49:07 - 00:12:27:20
Jenna
Our current data is showing that trends are now growing 4.4 times faster than they were seven years ago. But on Pinterest, we see them build sustainably rather than spike and disappear. And so it's no surprise to me that on average, Pinterest trends last 20% longer than trends across other platforms. One of the things that we talk about on our team, a lot is differentiating this notion of what is a trend and what is a fad, a fad being something really quick and viral that doesn't give a brand a lot of opportunity to activate against where a trend is a real shift in consumer behaviour that has meaning, roots and longevity.

00:12:27:23 - 00:12:30:16
Jenna
Giving a brand an opportunity to act.

00:12:30:18 - 00:12:41:15
Alison
So congratulations, 88% rate was impressive and you should be very proud of that. Thank you. I'm also intrigued. You talked about the acceleration of trends. What do you think is behind that?

00:12:41:17 - 00:13:09:22
Jenna
I mean, there's no denying that short form viral video has been an absolute accelerator. It's put gasoline on the fire. Also, the vision of, you know, Gen Z brings a lot of appetite for aesthetics and more visual experiences into their lives. And so I think they're drawing and taking from a lot of different realms. And so we're seeing as they identify and seek self-expression, they're turning through a lot of different personas that they're trying on for size.

00:13:09:22 - 00:13:38:08
Jenna
And so I think the combination of Gen Z being in a state of self-identification and self-discovery, combined with this force of, you know, rise of short form online video where people are consuming content faster and faster, we're just inundated with this information. The challenge for marketers is how do you pass through it? You know, it's challenging supply chains, it's challenging social teams and marketers to think, you know, when and how and where do we play in this space.

00:13:38:12 - 00:14:06:02
Jenna
And that's where I'm really proud of. Pinterest predicts offering something a little bit different, where in this moment in time, when there's a lot of fast moving trends, we're of course acknowledging those. Those are those are elements of a lot of our trends. We're doing that one click up to see the larger picture. And how that fad actually fits into something larger, which again, gives a brand a little bit more lead time and opportunity to really flex and participate in consumer culture.

00:14:06:04 - 00:14:10:21
Alison
Now I look at the Pinterest predicts every single year and you've just launched 26.

00:14:10:23 - 00:14:12:07
Jenna
We did. Yes.

00:14:12:09 - 00:14:21:03
Alison
Very excited to hear more about some of the exclusive insights, particularly around Canadian consumer trends and where we might be different than what you're seeing globally.

00:14:21:05 - 00:14:42:09
Jenna
Yeah, absolutely. One of my favourite parts of getting to work on projects is being able to explore the global nature of our trends, and when and where trends are spiking or migrating in a different market. So when we double click into Canada specifically, the data tells us that Canadian consumers, especially the younger ones, are gravitating towards trends that feel really authentic to their values.

00:14:42:14 - 00:15:11:18
Jenna
Craftsmanship, bold self-expression, and connection to nature. One of my favourites, the biggest story in Canada, is laced up, so we're seeing it perform at 3.7 times the global rate overall. So that's pretty massive increase. And when we say laced up we're talking about lace collars. Bomber jackets, lace inspired nails, softly stitched bandanas, something about this handcrafted, delicate esthetic that seems to really be striking a chord, especially with younger Canadians.

00:15:11:18 - 00:15:33:02
Jenna
And then there's Wilder Kind, which is that delicate, edible aesthetic. So think of the fun freckles and butterfly wing nail art. It's performing really strongly across Canada again, especially with Gen Z. But when you think about Canada's real, you know, historical relationship with nature and wildlife, it just makes total sense that this particular trend would really resonate in Canada.

00:15:33:02 - 00:16:00:17
Jenna
We are seeing some interesting generational differences in our Canadian trends. So cabbage clash for example, is extremely popular for every segment in Canada except for Gen Z. So you got older Canadians really embracing this whole cabbage as a kitchen MVP trend, the blistered cabbage steaks and kimchi cocktails, while Gen Z is like, nope, not. But for us instead, they're saying that they're going to make calamari their thing instead.

00:16:00:17 - 00:16:11:22
Jenna
And that's this really, this whole maximalist 80s luxury thing. Chunky belts, the baggy suits with those sculpted shoulders, all that bold gold jewelry. Gen Z Canadians are really here for it.

00:16:12:00 - 00:16:19:08
Alison
So, Jenna, I'd love you to share how Canadian behaviours and preferences differ from what you're seeing, particularly compared to the US.

00:16:19:10 - 00:16:45:07
Jenna
Absolutely. Let me layer our Canadian data with home and food categories in particular, some really distinct Canadian patterns emerge, especially when we contrast them against the US. So Canadian Gen-Z is embracing that vintage rebellion. So vintage styles are up 9% mid-century and French country seeing around 20% growth. And they're doing this in a really distinctly Canadian way that feels more grounded than other markets are.

00:16:45:11 - 00:17:18:16
Jenna
Again, rejecting that minimalism. But without going to the extremes that you see sometimes in the US market, the food data really tells an interesting story. So Canadian pinners are 56% more likely to want responsibly sourced ingredients and 31% more likely to demand clear product labeling, which is significantly higher than global averages. So the trending category is in searches like Bountiful Bowls and protein powder swaps really reflect a unique and practical health conscious approach that feels very Canadian.

00:17:18:16 - 00:17:39:09
Jenna
Another thing that really sets Canadians apart is intentionality. So in food health, as 39% of searches lead to outbound clicks, which is actually twice as high as other categories. And so Canadians are clearly planning to act. They're not just here to brainstorm. They're bringing those dreams to life, which is amazing. This actually shows up in our broader predicts trends, too.

00:17:39:09 - 00:18:10:05
Jenna
So when Canadian Gen Z overindex is laced up. So the market level overindex is at 3.7 times. When we double click into Gen Z, they're actually indulging in laced up at 5.5 times the global rates. They're not just following the trends, they're really curating them to fit their values around craftsmanship and authentic self-expression. And so we really see this combination of bold choices grounded in more practical values, that makes Canadian consumer behaviour really distinctive.

00:18:10:07 - 00:18:27:16
Alison
That's super helpful, Jen, I really appreciate you. And drilling down into the unique Canadian insights and behaviours, for sure. Now, AI is clearly transforming every aspect of both marketing and research, so I'd love to hear how you're integrating AI into both your research methodologies and the Pinterest product experience.

00:18:27:18 - 00:18:52:13
Jenna
Oh, this is my like, day to day living and breathing. As a research leader right now, I am really invested in how are we onboarding an AI driven research tool kit for my team, but that really comes as a culture that set from the top. So AI is core to everything we do a Pinterest, it's why we've effectively become an AI powered shopping assistant to over 600 million people monthly.

00:18:52:15 - 00:19:16:23
Jenna
They're making more than 80 billion monthly queries and over time have created that. Those 15 billion boards and all of those service inputs to make our AI smarter for Pinterest, predict specifically, we incorporated AI into our objective benchmarking. We wanted to use that to complement the team's human centered curation, and we find that the balance of the two help makes the trends genuinely resonate.

00:19:16:23 - 00:19:46:09
Jenna
And so there are three different phases that go into predicts as a trend spotting process. Our discovery process remains mostly human driven. Our trends emerge from analyzing real Pinterest human behaviour through proprietary machine learning built specifically for our visual intent driven platform. So it's helping generate number of different clusters and approaches for us to mine our data evaluation of the trends that come out of that discovery period is really where we introduced gen AI this year.

00:19:46:09 - 00:20:10:03
Jenna
And so we created an objective benchmarking tool against criteria like consumer appeal, advertiser value, buzz pick cultural relevance to be able to understand and model the achievement and success of each of our trends. And then the curation stage is completely human. And so our predicts team makes final calls, drawing on cultural expertise to select trends and craft narratives.

00:20:10:08 - 00:20:17:09
Jenna
We really want to make sure that our storytelling stays human because this is a reflection of human behaviour.

00:20:17:14 - 00:20:21:21
Alison
That's a great overview. What role does visual search play in the evolution?

00:20:21:23 - 00:20:38:02
Jenna
You know, one of the things I love about Pinterest is that we're solving for that. I'll know it when I see it. Problem that all of us face when shopping. So using Pinterest is like shopping with a friend or personal stylist. The person who knows you best. We hear from Gen Z all the time that Pinterest just gets me.

00:20:38:02 - 00:21:08:02
Jenna
And so when we give users an opportunity to start with an image instead of words, refined results that match their taste good. Connected to shoppable products using inclusive tools to find inspiration that truly reflects them. It's a win. And so visual search is critical because we shop with our eyes first. This really makes sense. And so on. The Pinterest side includes computer vision, AI and multimodal foundation model ingest images and text, creating a deeper understanding of our Pins content.

00:21:08:02 - 00:21:38:18
Jenna
And so this proprietary model is 30% more likely to identify and recommend relevant content compared to leading off the shelf models due to our unique AI first party signal. And again, that signal is being fed by all of those searches and curate board curation that's happening in any given month. And so our visual search technology is helping users discover ideas and products that they weren't even looking for, and allowing them to do it with their eyes, not necessarily their words.

00:21:38:20 - 00:21:54:01
Alison
Now, you've spoken about building a better, safer internet that encourages well-being, and I know everyone listening is on board with that. For sure. So as a research leader, how do you balance business objectives with this mission of creating more positive online experiences?

00:21:54:03 - 00:22:17:19
Jenna
Well, as I mentioned earlier, like I, I deeply believe that positivity is a competitive advantage and it's Pinterest's competitive advantage to it is a key differentiator for our business. We think it's possible to engineer well-being into algorithms and win, and we make a courageous decision each day to prioritize user safety over short term metrics. That is absolutely a business priority for us.

00:22:17:19 - 00:22:41:10
Jenna
And so we as a company have made long term bets on making Pinterest a more positive place, one that is designed to be safer for our youngest users. So at Pinterest, we are the first and only to go from public to private for under sixteens and the first and only digital platform to support phone free schools. We are also one of the first to call for OS level age verification.

00:22:41:10 - 00:23:00:17
Jenna
And so at the time, people thought Pinterest was really aging up and aging out, that we couldn't win over the next generation. But when we actually made the switch from public to private only and our stock price actually dropped because people thought it was just going to wreck us with young users. But when we listen to young users, we actually have seen the opposite thing.

00:23:00:17 - 00:23:32:14
Jenna
Really appreciate the safety and protocols we've put in place. And so we're actually winning with Gen Z. Gen Z is our largest and fastest growing audience that over 50% of our users today. And they're turning to us to search and to find a safe, well-being driven space on the internet. And so to ensure that we're delivering on that overall mission, my team has designed a wellbeing measure that evaluates user well-being after usage, and we actually commit to reporting this in our ESG reporting as an accountability element.

00:23:32:14 - 00:23:57:05
Jenna
So it's not just about saying that Pinterest as a company prioritizes well-being. It's about committing to measuring it, to tracking it and really holding ourselves accountable to it. This social Media wellbeing measurement tool assesses four key pillars safety, belonging, self-worth, and purpose. And so we're using proprietary tool that we built to do 1212 item question survey across all of these four buckets.

00:23:57:11 - 00:24:08:15
Jenna
And what we found is in our most recent report, Pinterest maintained its position as the number one platform for positive impact on user well-being, scoring significantly above the competitive average.

00:24:08:17 - 00:24:16:13
Alison
So I love that. Pinterest itself is another example where positivity is in the best interest of your audience. But also in the best interests of the business.

00:24:16:15 - 00:24:17:09
Jenna
Absolutely.

00:24:17:13 - 00:24:22:11
Alison
Now, are you seeing any demographic differences in how positivity is resonating?

00:24:22:13 - 00:24:50:16
Jenna
Yeah, I do think that it resonates deeply with Gen Z, and they're in this state of going through a self-identification and self-discovery journey, and so they want to do that in a safe place, you know, free of judgment, free of comparison, and so on Pinterest, they have plenty of space to explore and discover who they are. And as we think of behaviours, you know, one of the things my team talks about a lot is like, what is generational and what is life stage?

00:24:50:18 - 00:25:15:23
Jenna
And as you know, Gen Z ages up and we even see Gen Alpha coming more into play. We know that is that life phase of self-discovery isn't going away for the youth of today and tomorrow. And so I'm really excited for Pinterest to continue to create spaces that are really safe for all people to explore and discover themselves, no matter where in the world they are or what age they are now.

00:25:15:23 - 00:25:24:16
Alison
As an older folk have this positivity resonate, I'd love to think that it resonates very well with us as well, but you've got the research, so I'd love to hear more about that too.

00:25:24:18 - 00:25:51:03
Jenna
Yes, absolutely. So positivity plays a role in every generation. My husband is Gen X and he's always joking that they are the forgotten generation when it comes to marketing. But what we see is that, you know, a positive and safe environment is one where people are poised to act no matter their generation. And so that ability to seek intent, you know, as a parent, I do a lot of shopping and planning on Pinterest for my family in our lives.

00:25:51:03 - 00:26:17:04
Jenna
And so that we see is key for our users as well, where they're leaning in to plan their holidays for their family or as grandparents shopping for gifts for their kids out there. We're seeing engagement at lots of different levels, and again, in a place that is safe and frankly, creative and inspiring. And so the amazing thing about creativity today and creativity on Pinterest is that it's universally accessible.

00:26:17:04 - 00:26:28:05
Jenna
And so that's something that no matter your age, young or old, I believe that everyone benefits from a burst of creative energy in their lives. And that's something that Pinterest absolutely delivers.

00:26:28:09 - 00:26:44:10
Alison
As another Gen Xer, thank you very much. So I am really lucky to host senior guests like you on each of my episodes. So I always end by asking our guests to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps, so I'd love to hear the wisdom that you share.

00:26:44:12 - 00:27:04:11
Jenna
Absolutely. I mean, I11, I love this question, and partially I love it because my my answer is to continue to ask questions. So, you know, as a researcher that is my work pursuit. It's also as a human being, my life pursuit. And so I really encourage everyone to never be afraid to ask questions. There's no such thing as a bad question.

00:27:04:13 - 00:27:25:01
Jenna
Like, as I mentioned earlier, I was that curious kid who never stopped asking questions. And so now I feel like I'm the luckiest person in the world because I get paid to ask important questions for a living. But in general, people really want to share about their experience, and asking questions is the best way to learn something new and connect on a human to human level with the people you work with and meet.

00:27:25:02 - 00:27:30:21
Jenna
So I encourage everyone to stay curious, ask questions, and just never stop. Learning from the people around you.

00:27:31:01 - 00:27:51:08
Alison
Is absolutely outstanding advice and your inquisitive little girl that's still inside is very proud to see adults and thank you Alison and thanks so much. This have been absolutely wonderful conversation and use positivity as well. So I thank you for bringing some bright sunshine and some really important research and findings to our audience today.

00:27:51:10 - 00:27:58:14
Jenna
Thank you so much for having me.

00:27:58:16 - 00:28:11:05
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Why isn't Canada a leader in AI adoption? Sabrina Geremia, Vice President & Country Managing Director at Google Canada, tells Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, that Canada was a leader in AI creation but is falling behind in adoption. With only 26% of Canadian organizations having adopted Generative AI, despite the potential to save workers 170 hours annually, Google suggests empowering people, accelerating AI value creation, and contributing to the Canadian national ecosystem.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:12
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:14 - 00:00:27:21
Alison
The artificial intelligence revolution isn't just changing how we work. It's redefining what's possible for Canadian businesses and the economy as a whole. There are many benefits, but also risks associated with that are super important to understand. As AI continues to innovate at breakneck speed, the question really becomes how can Canadian marketers and businesses harness these advances to drive growth and close our productivity gap in ethical and responsible ways? For today's episode, I'm pleased to welcome Sabrina Geremia, VP and Country Manager for Google Canada.

00:00:54:10 - 00:01:25:21
Alison
Sabrina will be celebrating her 20th anniversary with Google in May and next year Google is actually celebrating their 25th anniversary in Canada as well. Sabrina has led Google Canada's strategic direction and advertising business since 2017, focusing on fostering Canada's digital economy by assisting businesses in growth, supporting the tech sector and enhancing digital skills among Canadians. With over 25 years of experience spanning marketing, public relations, sales and general management, Sabrina brings a unique perspective to the intersection of technology and business transformation.

00:01:26:02 - 00:01:48:19
Alison
Her journey actually began in consumer packaged goods before making a strategic pivot to technology during the early dot-com era. At Google she has held various leadership positions, including managing director of Integrated Solutions, building her expertise as a trusted advisor to Canada's C-suite. She's been recognized as one of Canada's Top 100 Most Powerful Women and the recipient of the Women in Communication Technology Women of the Year Award.

00:01:49:01 - 00:02:11:00
Alison
Sabrina is deeply committed to advancing digital skills and innovation in Canada. Her experience really positions her uniquely to speak about AI's potentially transformative impact on marketing, as well as Canada's productivity challenges and the evolution of digital advertising in an increasingly AI-driven landscape. Welcome, Sabrina. It is an absolute pleasure to have you join us today, and I'm looking forward to a terrific conversation.

00:02:11:05 - 00:02:13:06
Sabrina
Hi, Alison, it's so great to be here.

00:02:13:08 - 00:02:30:23
Alison
So I'd like to kick things off by hearing a bit about your career. So as I mentioned, you started your career in consumer packaged goods with P&G, and then you pivoted and have spent the majority in tech, including your upcoming 20th anniversary with Google. What inspired you to change industries fairly early in your career and what's kept you in tech?

00:02:31:01 - 00:02:55:22
Sabrina
Yeah, well, it's so great to be here and I love spending time with the CMA. You know, especially as a former board member, I know that the work that you do is so valuable and important to Canada. So thank you for that. Yeah, my career has been an interesting one. I have actually lived through the three arcs of technology. So I have been working for close to three decades, and I've kind of gone from no internet to the internet, from internet to mobile,

00:02:55:22 - 00:03:18:21
Sabrina
and now this just enormous and transformative AI moment. And so pre-internet, I mean, I am Canadian, I grew up in Guelph, just outside of Toronto, and I went to Laurier, for university, and I did my last year in Italy as an exchange student. And from there I worked at Procter and Gamble. And when I worked at Procter and Gamble, it was really underlying what you know very well, Alison.

00:03:18:21 - 00:03:38:21
Sabrina
Just like the importance of marketing and how important the foundation fundamentals of marketing are. So I worked there for about five years. I worked across cosmetics and some of their laundry business all across Italy. But I had friends who were in the Valley, and I saw the internet coming, and I knew that it was coming. And I just, you know, knew it was going to be very transformative.

00:03:38:21 - 00:03:58:01
Sabrina
I remember one day driving past the Colosseum and just reflecting on like, wow, like that amazing moment when all of this new technology and these new advancements were happening in Rome. I want to be part of that. So I left my job and I did what, you know, many people do. I took a year to kind of move around.

00:03:58:01 - 00:04:16:16
Sabrina
I did a lot of nonprofit work. I did a lot of volunteer work. I went to Asia. I did some work with the UN on what the internet could mean for the digital divide. And this was all, again, just at the emergence of the internet. And then I went and landed at Ask Jeeves and after that, Reckitt Benckiser and really learned the foundations of the internet.

00:04:16:16 - 00:04:39:22
Sabrina
And I was working in London and globally at that time. And then from there, Google found me, and I started working at Google in 2006, in London, in the UK, and I helped them set up like our whole consumer packaged goods practice on how were we going to work with CPG companies like Reckitt, like P&G, the largest advertisers in the world, and help them shift and transition to this internet future?

00:04:40:00 - 00:04:55:15
Sabrina
So a little while later, I came back to Canada and was so happy to come back. And during my time and, you know, working all the aisles of the grocery store in Canada, that was the big shift to mobile. And the shift to mobile was big. Like, no one believed that you would ever buy a pair of running shoes on a mobile phone.

00:04:55:19 - 00:05:13:05
Sabrina
And yet we know today people buy cars on mobile phone. They do all sorts of things on their mobile. The form factor had changed. And so, you know, fast forward to today. It's the third shift. It's a really big one. It's very transformative. We've done it before. We're going to do it again. And you know what inspires me really

00:05:13:06 - 00:05:36:19
Sabrina
you know, to stay in tech, and I've been in tech like, you know, we said for over 20 years and even more, if you count my experience before Google, is that really it's our mission. Like our mission at Google in this moment is really on helpfulness, and it's making AI helpful for everybody. And in Canada, what inspires me is our shared mission as a team to help make Canada a global leader in AI in the value creation phase.

00:05:36:19 - 00:06:04:10
Sabrina
We've been such leaders in the creation of the tech. I want us to be leaders in the adoption and value creation. And this really means empowering our people, it means accelerating AI value creation with all of the amazing partners that you work with every day, and also contributing to the national ecosystem in Canada, and and it really is important to get this right in Canada, because while we were leaders in the creation of AI, we're starting to fall behind in the adoption phase.

00:06:04:12 - 00:06:25:15
Alison
I love your career story and the fact that you actually started internationally, spent a number of years. I also love that you've demonstrated great bravery as you decided I want to try something different. Most people would find another job and grow that way, and you took a bet on yourself that clearly paid off and led to some fascinating experiences, including work with the UN, and ultimately brought you to tech.

00:06:25:15 - 00:06:46:18
Alison
So lesson number one for our listeners is that willingness to bet on yourself and take some measured risks throughout your career can be an amazing accelerator. So AI is certainly shaping the future across industries. From your perspective as head of Google at Canada, what do you see as the biggest opportunities that AI presents for businesses and the economy in Canada right now?

00:06:47:00 - 00:07:10:14
Sabrina
That is a really important question, Alison, and probably one that I think about every day. We talked earlier about being so ahead in the primary research. If you think about many of the AI greats who contributed to this technology, a lot of them were here and a lot of them are here today. And, you know, we have a lot of great primary researchers and a lot of engineers and technological strength in the AI fields.

00:07:10:16 - 00:07:33:12
Sabrina
But some of the latest reports are showing that we're lagging in the adoption of AI right now as an economy. So there was a Deloitte report out recently that only 26% of Canadian organizations have adopted AI, and that's about, you know, ten points lower than other companies in a global peer set. So this idea here that we created it, but we're not moving fast enough to adopt it.

00:07:33:14 - 00:07:57:09
Sabrina
What's at stake is productivity and opportunity. And you know, the valuation of this is around 230 billion in economic impact for Canada. So that's eight points of GDP. It could save the average worker three and a half weeks per year, 170 hours per year of work. And that's kind of lower value tasks that then you can kind of uplevel and do different things and do them more effectively.

00:07:57:09 - 00:08:17:09
Sabrina
So I think really about having Canadians being able to use the tools, adopt the tools. We know that people know it's important. We did a poll of businesses and 84% of C-levels in Canada and business leaders think that AI really does offer an important opportunity for the Canadian economy. Almost 80% of them agree that it's going to have a positive impact on productivity.

00:08:17:14 - 00:08:41:06
Sabrina
But we need businesses of all shapes and sizes, from the SMBs to retailers, to manufacturing to agriculture. This is a multipurpose tool, right? We need adoption to accelerate and the value creation to follow that. So really it's about putting AI to work for Canadians today. And the really good news here is like we're talking to an audience of marketers, is that marketers are playing an outsized role in the adoption of AI at this moment.

00:08:41:08 - 00:08:44:12
Sabrina
And they are leaders in using AI to supercharge their strategies and results. So we do know that it's working.

00:08:47:00 - 00:09:13:06
Alison
Building on that, we did some CMA research and found out that, to your point, marketers are ahead of other Canadian knowledge groups, including scientists, so that's encouraging. But we're still sitting, I think 72%. So there's still lots of growth. We know even before AI, Canada's productivity gap is a real challenge. The fact that we had such an amazing head start and leadership role in AI, and we've given some of that up for sure.

00:09:13:08 - 00:09:24:03
Alison
And then combine that with your recent research. Around 80% of Canadian business leaders know this is a powerful tool. So what do you think is getting in the way of our adoption?

00:09:24:05 - 00:09:44:13
Sabrina
You know I mean I think we're going to get there. So I have faith in Canada. Like we are smart, we are resourceful and we are talented. But you know what we're focused on really Google Canada's two things - like one is really about skilling Canadians. Right. And people and skills matter foundationally so much. And then second is about creating and scaling business value.

00:09:44:13 - 00:10:01:09
Sabrina
So if we look at the people and skills there, there is some data to suggest that Canadians are a little more fearful of AI than their global peers. And that is probably, you know, creating some of the adoption lag here. And we know the opportunity and it's 230 billion. But we know that Canadians want to learn AI skills.

00:10:01:09 - 00:10:19:09
Sabrina
And so 63% of Canadian workers want to acquire these skills. I was in a cafe this weekend and I was with my son, and we were sitting next to two people who were working on laptops, and he kind of gave me the elbow and he said, listen, mummy, they're talking and teaching each other how to use Gemini. So they were in a cafe teaching each other how to use Google Gemini.

00:10:19:09 - 00:10:41:23
Sabrina
I think they might have been teachers. And I turned to him and I said, yeah, because everybody knows that using these tools is really going to help them supercharge their skills and supercharge what they're doing. So we are trying to contribute to that through, we launched an AI Opportunity Fund. It's a $13 million fund, and it's a goal to actually support two million with AI skills.

00:10:41:23 - 00:11:07:03
Sabrina
So 2 million Canadians supercharged with AI skills. We have an amazing roster of nonprofits and partners that we're working with, like the Alberta Machine Intelligence Institute, Skills for Change, the First Nations Technology Council, and the Toronto Public Library. If you live in Toronto and you go into a TPL branch, you will probably see a sign that says, join us for learning circle around a Grow with Google AI Essential certificate.

00:11:07:03 - 00:11:25:14
Sabrina
And so these certificates are micro-credentials. They're short courses that you can do in one batch, or you can do it a little bit at a time. And it's really helping people use the schools to be more effective in their work, and to build practical, hands on AI skills. This AI essentials that is part of the Grow with Google portfolio,

00:11:25:18 - 00:11:46:11
Sabrina
it's the most popular Gen AI course on Coursera of all time globally, and what I find really promising about it is we talk to many of the people who have graduated, and there's been 54,000 Canadians who have graduated so far, and 75% of them are reporting a positive career outcome after they take this course. They might get a promotion.

00:11:46:11 - 00:12:04:15
Sabrina
Then maybe they get to work on a new project. They might find a job. And so we know that when they, you know, work on their skills and learn how to use these tools, they create value. So I think the skilling of Canadians is really foundational. It's really important. I encourage anyone listening who wants to learn to check out the Grow with Google.

00:12:04:15 - 00:12:26:17
Sabrina
There are also many other options out there. But again, we want to get every Canadian, not just the 2 million powered up with AI skills. Then the second area is really about business value creation. Like we have to accelerate the business adoption and value creation as the tools are emerging. And one of the things that I think is really important is that AI isn't a strategy.

00:12:26:22 - 00:12:47:02
Sabrina
Your business strategy can deliver more with AI. So I'm always asking folks like, what is your business strategy enabled by AI? Right? And then that becomes a totally different conversation. And that's really important for marketers, like marketers right now, it's it's a tough balancing job. And you know this, right? You you probably hear it from all of the CMA members every day.

00:12:47:07 - 00:13:08:07
Sabrina
You're being asked to drive exponential growth. You're being asked to do it while delivering on efficiency. You're being asked to do new creative things differently. And what we've seen is that leading marketers who are using AI are seeing 60% business results, whether it's making media work better, finding new customers you didn't know you were looking for, it could be personalizing creative and delivering it at scale.

00:13:08:11 - 00:13:32:14
Sabrina
It might be back end processes where you're iterating, etc. or it might be in the emerging fields of solving customer needs better with AI agents. So when I look at all of these use cases with a really powered up workforce in Canada that knows how to use these tools, I think that this is the building block of really seeing that 230 billion economic impact for Canada become real.

00:13:32:14 - 00:13:46:08
Sabrina
I see so many glimmers of this happening, and I just, you know, my hope for Canada is that we can figure out what works, we can scale it quickly, and we can avoid pilot paralysis where we're stuck in a bunch of pilots. We're actually scaling what's working.

00:13:46:12 - 00:14:22:22
Alison
Well said. And I share your optimism for Canada as well. And I was at your kickoff for the $13 million accelerator. And just to see the organizations that you're partnering with and the active role you're playing in helping upskill 2 million Canadians is such an important step in our ability to really deliver on the opportunity. Now you talked a bit about how this is impacting marketing, and you're absolutely right that whether it's AI or any new major market shift, consumer shift or technological shift, when you're sitting around the executive table, all eyes tend to turn to the CMO first with an expectation that we're going to figure it out first, which also can be a little intimidating.

00:14:22:22 - 00:14:40:14
Alison
You've had over two decades in tech. You've seen incredible transformation, including the three major cycles that you've talked a bit about. How have Canadians habits, especially around expectations of brand and marketing, fundamentally evolved during this time, leading us into today's more AI-driven landscape?

00:14:40:16 - 00:15:03:23
Sabrina
It's evolving. You know, on the whole premise, one of the main values of Google is like, you know, follow the user and all else will follow. And as technology emerges, user behaviour evolves. And it's happening pretty quick. So Google DeepMind, which is our primary research, it's our team at Google and it's led by Demis Hassabis. And he actually says that it's it's happening at 10x the industrial revolution, happening at 10x the speed.

00:15:04:01 - 00:15:20:14
Sabrina
So if you put that math together, it's happening at 100x. So maybe, you know, I'll share a little story with you. Like I realized that I needed to buy a swimsuit for an upcoming trip. And so I turned to Search and I started searching for swimsuits. And I came across a new brand that I had never heard of, which is called Left on Friday.

00:15:20:16 - 00:15:44:12
Sabrina
And I thought, that's really interesting. I'd like to learn more. Like, is this a Canadian-founded company? That was the question that I asked. And it actually took me to AI Overviews. And it told me, yes, indeed it was. It's a company founded by two Canadians and they're based in BC, and they have created this brand. So then I pivoted to AI Mode, which is the tab that actually allows you to have a conversational experience with the AI.

00:15:44:16 - 00:16:04:06
Sabrina
And I started asking about their product assortment reviews and doing comparisons and so on. Then I went back to Search and I asked to go to the site, and I started looking at places that I could buy it, and I found out where the store was, and there's one in Toronto. And so this is just such a perfect example of how Canadian consumers are just doing things differently.

00:16:04:06 - 00:16:27:18
Sabrina
Right? It's more complex. They're searching, they're streaming, they're scrolling, they're shopping. They're watching the game, often simultaneously. Right? They're doing a lot of things all at once. And consumers are now interacting with around 130 mobile touch points a day. So when you think about that story of what I did, like, you know, the the AI overviews, 2 billion people are seeing this every month.

00:16:27:18 - 00:16:43:05
Sabrina
AI Mode, we just launched it. It's already at 100 million users per month. And users of AI mode, they're asking questions that are 2 to 3 times longer than traditional queries. That's not even to mention Google Lens, Circle to Search, all of these new features that we have. 

00:16:43:07 - 00:17:02:20
Alison
Sabrina, you clearly have your PhD in multitasking. And I can personally vouch for the Left on Friday swim brand. I have a couple of their bathing suits, and I'm a proud supporter of outstanding Canadian business. I'd love you to go a little bit deeper on AI's impact and gains in advertising, and share some of the tangible gains marketers who are actively investing in AI are seeing in their campaigns.

00:17:04:18 - 00:17:24:22
Sabrina
You know, we said earlier, like, this is just such a huge boost. I think marketers are ahead in leveraging AI tools, and we know that when they're integrating AI tools, the reporting 60% greater revenue growth. And that's what's so important is that we're now able to measure two business outcomes, right. We're not talking stories of media metrics anymore.

00:17:24:22 - 00:17:53:00
Sabrina
It's really understanding how we can make Canadian companies grow. And there are a lot of different use cases. You know, another one of my favourite stories is a Aritzia. So, you know, I don't know if you know, the Super Puff, Alison? My daughter bought one of them last winter and she swears by it. She absolutely loves it. But Aritzia worked with us and they used AI to identify that Super Puff jacket demand and people interested in it wasn't happening just in October and November and in the winter. It was spiking as early as June.

00:17:53:05 - 00:18:15:22
Sabrina
So it's something that you may not think about, you know, like when your demand is spiking for something like a warm winter jacket. So they pivoted quickly. They looked at how they could meet demand earlier. They worked with us on Demand Gen, YouTube, on early awareness, search and performance max on conversion to high tech. They played the entire funnel and they optimized their performance against profitability goals.

00:18:15:22 - 00:18:37:06
Sabrina
Again, a business goal, not of media metrics. And the Super Puff team saw that 55% year over year increases in demand were happening thanks to the efforts that they did. So I think that's just like one example of many on the media front of just really being thoughtful of where demand is, how to actually measure to the right number on demand.

00:18:37:11 - 00:19:00:08
Sabrina
But then how to use AI to maximize profitable outcomes, irrespective of what you might think that someone is going to be shopping for a Super Puff in the winter as opposed to starting in June. And so that's on the media front. We're also seeing a lot of use cases on the process front, on the creative front. And again, a lot of new emergent areas in AI and agents as well.

00:19:00:10 - 00:19:26:08
Alison
So you shared some very compelling reasons for our listeners, if they're not already embracing AI, to start, having 60% better revenue growth, having 55% increase in year over year demand. So it's clear there are a lot of very powerful benefits with AI. There are also risks. So how is Google ensuring the ethical and responsible adoption of AI? And what advice would you give to marketing professionals who have tuned in today?

00:19:26:10 - 00:19:48:05
Sabrina
Alison, that is a really important question and I'm really glad that you asked it. And, you know, it's something that we talk about a lot at Google, because it's really important to us. And the premise here is really about building AI boldly and responsible together. You know, the idea is that we want AI to benefit everyone, right? This is a multipurpose tool that has a lot of potential.

00:19:48:08 - 00:20:08:02
Sabrina
So we were the first to develop our AI principles to guide our work. And it's about having bold innovation and developing an AI that assists and empowers, inspires and drives economic progress. We want the AI to improve people's lives. We want it to enable scientific breakthroughs. We want it to help with some of the biggest challenges that we're facing.

00:20:08:02 - 00:20:34:01
Sabrina
Like one of the places I find in Google very inspiring is Isomorphic Labs. Think of the mission to solve all disease. It's such a bold mission, and this is really about reimagining drug discovery with AI. And when you look at some of the tools that are available right now, like AlphaFold, being able to look at DNA sequences and measure them and actually have them with AI and allow them to see the entire sequence, it actually just supercharges drug discovery.

00:20:34:04 - 00:20:57:07
Sabrina
It supercharges solutions in really important areas. So bold innovation is really important because we need to think bold in things that benefit humanity. But we also need to do it responsible, right. So we need to develop and deploy AI responsibly. We need to acknowledge that there are complexities and risks throughout the life cycles. We have to adapt as it is evolved and we have to do this in collaboration.

00:20:57:09 - 00:21:19:21
Sabrina
We create these tools for collective benefit, and we need to collaborate with different stakeholders to make sure that this is working. So from a regulation perspective, we know that AI is too important not to regulate, but it's too important not to regulate well. And we need to focus on the opportunity, not just the risk and be balanced. Because AI does have risks, but it also has tremendous potential.

00:21:20:02 - 00:21:36:23
Alison
On the regulatory side, you're absolutely right, it needs to be regulated and it needs to be regulated well, which is challenging given the pace it's moving at. And no one, whether you're an AI guru or not, can really know where it's heading. So what advice would you give from a regulatory perspective?

00:21:37:01 - 00:22:06:00
Sabrina
I think from a regulatory perspective, it's really about being aligned, balanced and competitive. And really looking at the risk and the opportunity together and working together with the stakeholder community. You know, talking to startups, talking to different people who are using it, because it is a moving target in terms of the technology. So it has to be at the right level of application, with the right level of inputs and reflect not just the risk but also the opportunity.

00:22:06:02 - 00:22:07:10
Alison
Now I want to pivot a little bit.

00:22:07:10 - 00:22:26:16
Alison
So there's lots of discussion around many tools and many benefits of Gen AI, and overlaid with what's the role for us humans in that? Looking ahead, what's Google's long term vision for integrating Gen AI into ad creation and campaign management, and how do you see this impact potentially even enhancing the role of human advertisers? 

00:22:26:16 - 00:22:46:10
Sabrina
Yeah, so today, you know, we've talked through some of the examples of just how AI is really making it easier for advertisers. They're going to show up in moments that you can't plan for, you know, like buying a Super Puff in June or buying a Left on Friday bathing suit while you're watching the game. And that's where I really we're investing in all of our campaigns like Performance Max, Demand Gen, AI Max Research.

00:22:46:10 - 00:23:15:08
Sabrina
We know that the more that these are used, the more surfaces they're going to be displayed on, and the more demand that they're going to capture the business outcomes that the client needs. But I think as we evolve all of our capabilities, one area that I'm personally very excited about is the potential for SMBs. So Canada is a country of SMBs, and I think AI offer such a huge opportunity for them to show up and for them to to market in a way that I can't even imagine would have been possible when I started marketing over 30 years ago.

00:23:15:09 - 00:23:43:19
Sabrina
You know, the tools that an SMB can have, whether it's on content creation or finding customers around the world, is pretty incredible. So like there is a restaurant in Burlington called Familia Fine Foods. It's a small local restaurant. They do really great takeaway, and they wanted to go bigger. And so they worked with us on Google Ads, AI-powered ads with different combinations of headlines and descriptions and really finding people who cared about what they were offering.

00:23:43:19 - 00:24:07:12
Sabrina
And they increased their online sales by 27% in the past year. So, you know, if you're a small business, a restaurant owner, or any small business, like that, that can be game changing for you. The ability to grow your sales 27%. And I think all of these opportunities now put together is really what is going to drive some of that $230 billion in economic input.

00:24:07:16 - 00:24:19:16
Sabrina
And we are trying to make all of our platforms and all of our advertising accessible, not just to the large, amazing businesses in Canada, but also companies like Familia Fine Foods.

00:24:19:18 - 00:24:38:10
Alison
I love that example because you're absolutely right, SMBs play a mission critical role in our economy and are driving the bulk of our GDP, so that 27% growth is a great example of the power that could be amplified. It's also such a powerful tool for making SMBs much more scalable and competitive against the big guys.

00:24:38:10 - 00:24:54:16
Sabrina
We're seeing a lot of interest right now in export, Canadian companies looking to find audiences all over the world and we're seeing that this is something, again, like an SMB can access markets outside of Canada in a way that maybe they couldn't have ten, 15 years ago.

00:24:54:18 - 00:25:08:20
Alison
Absolutely. Now the creator economy is also booming, and I know YouTube's obviously a dominant player. So what is Google doing to support creators, and what are some of the new tools or initiatives in place to facilitate effective partnerships between brands and creators?

00:25:09:00 - 00:25:35:12
Sabrina
Yeah, the YouTube creator piece is just so amazing. Like if you haven't had the chance to talk to a YouTube creator, I really suggest you do. There's 35,000 jobs around the YouTube creator ecosystem just in Canada. It contributes more than 1.8 billion to Canada's GDP. Huge exporters. Right? So if you're a creator in Canada, you're making content for the Canadian audience, but you're exporting over 90% of your watch time to other markets.

00:25:35:12 - 00:25:57:10
Sabrina
And think about all of these new translation tools and other capabilities that you can have. And I think one of the things that people may not be aware of is that for every dollar in advertising that a creator or a YouTuber makes in Canada, 55% of it or $0.55 goes to them. So this is that 1.8 billion is an enormous economic powerhouse in Canada.

00:25:57:12 - 00:26:24:10
Sabrina
And these YouTube creators are finding fame and they're finding audiences all over the world. So I spend as much time as I can with creators because I find them so fascinating. And I'm so excited about the work that they're doing. And we really punch above our weight in Canada. And there was an Ipsos study just recently that online users are 98% more likely to trust the recommendations of creators on YouTube, and that's like versus any other social sites or apps.

00:26:24:13 - 00:26:48:05
Sabrina
And so creators are now embedded in influencing and in creating opportunities for brands in Canada. So we just launched the Creator Partnerships Hub. This is a dedicated tool that lives in Google Ads, and it really lets advertisers see and manage all of their creator campaigns, so that you can combine this trust of creators and your AI-powered campaigns, and you can reach different audiences.

00:26:48:07 - 00:27:04:00
Sabrina
So I think it's really exciting, and I think every every 14 year old wants to be a creator. And we have Take Your Kids to Work Day. And one of the things we're going to talk to them about is how do creators start their businesses, because so many people find that to be such a fascinating opportunity.

00:27:04:06 - 00:27:11:21
Alison
It really would be a fascinating career. I'm at the other end of my career where I'm now thinking about retirement, so maybe I should join and make it part of my retirement plan.

00:27:11:22 - 00:27:27:11
Sabrina
Alison. Absolutely. Well, you know what? The other thing? Podcasts is one of the fastest growing and largest areas on YouTube right now. So people are looking at podcasts on video, they're watching it on CTV on their big screen. So it's maybe that could be your next calling.

00:27:27:13 - 00:27:42:22
Alison
There you go. Figuring out my retirement plan as a side benefit to this episode. So for marketers and employees that are navigating this AI transformation, what is your advice for helping them truly focus on thriving and making the most of this new era?

00:27:43:00 - 00:28:03:05
Sabrina
You know, I think it can seem overwhelming, but we did it before with the shift to mobile, so we can do it again. With the shift to AI, and what I see folks who are actually getting that 60% value doing is a couple of things. Like, first of all, they're anchoring to value. They're not having an AI strategy.

00:28:03:05 - 00:28:26:19
Sabrina
They're having a business strategy that's enabled by AI. Second, they're scaling fast, so they're figuring out of all the pilots are doing what do they need to scale, what do they need to sunset and avoiding pilot paralysis. And third, they're bringing their people along on the journey. And this is the trickiest thing. I truly believe that the AI transformation is one part tech and three parts change management, leadership, culture.

00:28:26:23 - 00:28:50:01
Sabrina
And it really is about your whole organization having the basic skills to understand it and to set that strategy. Having all members of the C-level table all in. And like you said, the CMO can be such a guiding light on this. I really feel that strongly. The HR leader has such an important role to play and to pace the change and to pace the creation and to scale the value creation.

00:28:50:01 - 00:29:06:05
Sabrina
So, you know, like not everyone needs to be AI-proficient, like someone being able to create a large language model or set up a whole system. But everyone needs to understand the basics of AI, and everyone needs to understand how to anchor to that business value and process and manage this change.

00:29:06:07 - 00:29:22:04
Alison
That is outstanding advice. Now, I'm very fortunate to have some of Canada's top business leaders like you as guests on the podcast. So I end every episode with a question that I know our listeners are going to be very keen to hear your answer on. What's one piece of career advice that you would share with listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps?

00:29:22:06 - 00:29:39:20
Sabrina
You know, my kids ask me this, and what's so interesting is that when I was their age, my job didn't exist. So what I always anchor on, I call it the unicorn of the future of work. So, Alison, I think that the unicorn of the future of work is a combination of left brain, logical reasoning, right brain, creative.

00:29:39:20 - 00:30:00:23
Sabrina
So both of them together, left brain and right brain and supercharged with AI. And tools are going to evolve. Jobs will evolve. But the skills that you have need to be grounded in using those tools, but also the combination of both the logic, the reasoning and the creativity, the collaboration and the fundamentals of how you work with people are so important.

00:30:00:23 - 00:30:18:18
Sabrina
I think creativity is the undersold super skill of tomorrow, but you also need to be technically relevant, right? I'm always encouraging people understand the tools, understand them enough to be dangerous, and then hire the people around you that are going to be able to go very deep on it. You know, but all of this is also just about being curious.

00:30:18:18 - 00:30:46:22
Sabrina
Like there's so much curiosity in everything that we're doing right now with AI. If you think about your ability to have the world's information on your phone and now you're able to interact with it in a multi-modal way through Gemini Live, through some of these new tools. I just think it is such an exciting time. One to be a marketer, two to be in Canada, and I'm very hopeful for our ability to create value for the Canadian economy.

00:30:46:22 - 00:31:02:04
Sabrina
But not just that, to solve some of those big challenges that we talked about earlier, like the things that really matter to us in our societies as well, and that we can do it together, and we will look back on this era and the way that we look back at mobile and think, wow, we did that.

00:31:02:06 - 00:31:25:21
Alison
That is outstanding advice. And I love the unicorn of the future of work, and you're absolutely right. So many jobs didn't exist five years ago that exist today. So your ability to stay curious and learn and have both sides of your brain engaged is mission critical. So Sabrina, it's been an absolute delight. I know you're incredibly busy, and I appreciate how generous you've been with your time and looking forward to seeing you at an upcoming event as well.

00:31:25:23 - 00:31:31:06
Sabrina
Thank you for the work that you do, Alison. And like the CMA is so important and I'm grateful for the partnership.

00:31:31:11 - 00:31:43:01
Alison
Well, thank you. We've got amazing members and I've got an amazing team or none of this would be possible. So thank you as well.

00:31:43:03 - 00:31:55:16
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Isn't all marketing performance driven? Lauren Bradeen, CMO and Partner at Deloitte, challenges the traditional brand-versus-performance debate in her conversation with Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA. When Lauren stepped into the CMO role, she was driven to evolve the B2B marketing industry playbook. Now she's leading a transformation to help B2B marketers build marketing teams that are confident in the value they bring, rather than constantly justifying every dollar. Plus, Lauren shares why being a 'capability collector' is the secret to career advancement.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:09
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:11 - 00:00:47:22
Alison
I'm very happy to welcome Lauren Bradeen, Chief Marketing Officer and Partner at Deloitte Canada, for today's episode. Lauren is leading a comprehensive marketing transformation that's redefining how one of the world's premier professional services firms is approaching the integration of brand and performance marketing. Her expertise and strategic thinking have been showcased in industry publications, where she's contributed insights on the evolving challenges facing modern marketers.

00:00:48:00 - 00:01:10:06
Alison
Lauren's also been actively engaged in developing the next generation of marketing talent, recently participating as a guest speaker at our CMA NXT Marketing Careers Night, and she was also a judge for this year's CMA Awards. What sets Lauren apart is her journey from in the business into marketing leadership. She really understands how Deloitte works with clients, the processes behind it, and how to speak the language of the business.

00:01:10:08 - 00:01:33:06
Alison
Currently, she's leading Deloitte Marketing through what she calls the messy middle, an important part of any transformation. And they're moving from an operational marketing function to a strategic brand and growth engine with their own targets and accountability, all while maintaining Deloitte's position as the number one brand globally in the category. With marketing leaders across industries grappling with the false choice between brand building and performance marketing,

00:01:33:07 - 00:01:46:02
Alison
Lauren's approach can offer a roadmap for how these traditionally siloed functions really need to work together to drive real business success. Welcome, Lauren, I am absolutely thrilled to have you join us here today, and I'm looking forward to a terrific conversation.

00:01:46:04 - 00:01:48:04
Lauren
Thank you. Alison. So am I.

00:01:48:06 - 00:01:59:04
Alison
So let's get started with your story. When you stepped into the CMO role at Deloitte, what was it that resonated for you about that role and what were some of your early priorities?

00:01:59:06 - 00:02:20:08
Lauren
So I would offer that my journey into the role might have been a little bit more unconventional, as I was actually offered the role while on maternity leave, and so that really provided me a bit of space without an existing mandate to be focused on, to really think about the opportunity. And there were three things that surfaced for me.

00:02:20:10 - 00:02:42:12
Lauren
The first was to drive a greater impact for the firm. And so this role supports all of our businesses and all of our industries. And so within that, I have the opportunity to actually learn from and work with leaders across operate and consulting services and tax and legal, ER and I G.P.S. And so that was really, really interesting for me.

00:02:42:14 - 00:03:14:23
Lauren
The second was I had felt like the B2B playbook had not made as much progress over the last decade. And so I was excited about this opportunity for an industry that felt pretty ripe for transformation. And then the third piece was, what an honour. And so when they offered me the role, I felt like from a personal career perspective, the growth, the leadership opportunity to work with this large, incredible team, it just felt like something that I absolutely couldn't turn down.

00:03:15:01 - 00:03:38:13
Lauren
And so being on maternity leave, that also gave me a bit of space in a different way to think about what I wanted to do before I actually started the role. And so as I stepped into the role, the immediate priorities I had gone in with a bit of like blue sky unconstrained strategy, what were all the things that I would have loved when I was in the business?

00:03:38:15 - 00:03:57:18
Lauren
And then once I started the role and did my listening tour, in that first month, I was really able to validate, invalidate, gain new ideas from the team, hear all the things that they had always wanted to do, but maybe felt like they couldn't. And so right off the bat, the focus was just getting the strategy set.

00:03:57:19 - 00:04:15:07
Lauren
I started in Q2 as well for Deloitte, and so I felt like if I waited too long, it could actually be a bit more disruptive. And so we got that strategy in place, shared out this strategy so that everybody on the team felt part of and very clear on, what was our mission and what were we rallying around.

00:04:15:08 - 00:04:36:03
Lauren
And then the immediate priorities were around the areas that needed the most modernization in order to deliver on that strategy. And so we set up what we called task forces. There was about six of them, they're like mini consulting projects around things like digital transformation and KPIs and measurement. There were a few new capabilities we wanted to stand on, like our content studio.

00:04:36:05 - 00:04:40:06
Lauren
And so those were the immediate priorities that we took on once I stepped into the role.

00:04:40:08 - 00:04:52:13
Alison
I absolutely love that Deloitte gave you the promotion when you were on mat leave. That speaks so incredibly well of the culture, and the signal that that would have sent across the organization is incredibly powerful.

00:04:52:15 - 00:05:10:03
Lauren
I will reinforce that. I felt incredibly honoured and also very proud of Deloitte for giving me that opportunity while on maternity leave. I also asked my leader, like, do you think this is something that I can do as a new mom? And she was like, I think you can do this because you're a new mom. Like the the perspective you'll bring.

00:05:10:03 - 00:05:15:13
Lauren
And so that was definitely a very proud moment for me, for the firm.

00:05:15:15 - 00:05:45:02
Alison
That's amazing. Now, one of the big themes in marketing today is the ongoing tension between brand marketing and performance marketing. It is so often treated as an "either or" instead of an "and" relationship. So with that as a backdrop, I know you're leading a significant transformation at Deloitte around performance marketing. I'd love you to share your approach to structuring and changing marketing within the organization to be more performance driven, acknowledging that the brand part is an important part of driving that performance as well.

00:05:45:03 - 00:06:08:04
Lauren
So first and foremost, I've never loved the term performance marketing. I can appreciate that what felt like quite suddenly, marketers could track a sale and attribute a dollar to the marketing spend. It was very exciting. But I actually think we did a disservice by categorizing a part of marketing as performance, because then what is everything else in service of?

00:06:08:06 - 00:06:32:00
Lauren
And so I feel like the pendulum swung now back to needing a more balanced approach. And that's absolutely how we are embracing it. And so we call it "from brand to demand". And all marketing is performance driven. But it's in service of different KPIs. And so in terms of how we're thinking about performance marketing holistically, and you need that KPI framework.

00:06:32:00 - 00:07:03:01
Lauren
So we have quantifiable KPIs across brand, eminence consideration and growth. And we work in service of that KPI framework. The next thing I'd say, that we have done, again, in service of this broader performance marketing definition, is being a little bit less binary around how we look at spend. And so I think even when performance marketing started being talked about, you'd say, okay, well, we need to invest this percentage of our budget on performance marketing and then this percentage on everything else.

00:07:03:03 - 00:07:27:07
Lauren
Whereas the percentage splits or the way in which you flex your budget is very dependent on what you are marketing and the challenges that you're facing. We know that through things like media mixed modelling and different incrementality and approaches, you're going to learn what the right budget split at a given time is. But I do think we need to be more fluid in our approaches to budget and spending.

00:07:27:12 - 00:07:58:01
Lauren
And so we're really thinking about, what are the needs of our business, what are the needs of our client, and what does that mean from a spend split perspective? In the same way that you wouldn't look at the cost to acquire every segment the same. And so I think that comes back to everything needing to be in service of that KPI framework, because if you're only looking at something like the cost per acquisition, you're going to miss out on more flexible budgeting and spend split strategy, which would actually be in service of more growth.

00:07:58:03 - 00:08:22:12
Lauren
And then the last thing I'd offer is just the short term - long term balance. We're very lucky because Deloitte is a very client centric business, and we don't have the pressures of maybe a tech company or a consumer company where they have targets every week to meet on sales. Just by nature of the velocity of our sales cycle, we are more of a longer term business.

00:08:22:12 - 00:08:45:01
Lauren
And so we have that long term longevity of the business, longevity of the brand mindset. So I will be the first to admit that it is probably easier for us, but we know and the data shows that you have to think about the decisions that you're making in totality. If you stop investing in the brand, it makes it a lot harder and more expensive later to make up for that market share.

00:08:45:03 - 00:08:56:00
Alison
Now, building on that, how do you define a high performance marketing function today and what does great look like? And I'd also love you to talk a little bit about how has that definition evolved.

00:08:56:02 - 00:09:28:22
Lauren
So I think there's two parts of a high performance marketing team. There is the "what" and then there is the "how". And the "what" from my perspective is exactly what I just talked about. It's the KPI framework. And so every organization should have quantified targets across brands straight through to the bottom of the funnel. And with those quantified targets, there is a need for both a baseline and a benchmark view on those things so that you know you're not being too insular and what you're reaching for.

00:09:29:00 - 00:09:48:12
Lauren
But we also know that we ultimately have to continue to optimize and improve on our own metrics, because that's the data that we control, and we see and can compare apples to apples. And so once you have that, you have the targets for your KPI strategy. That's when you know what high performance is because that is meeting or exceeding all of your targets.

00:09:48:14 - 00:10:19:08
Lauren
And then how do you meet and exceed your targets? That is your strategy, your people and then your process data and tech. And so to me people is actually decoupled from the others because people and culture are what you truly need to unleash to be high performance. If you have a culture of innovation and curiosity and testing and learning, a really like relentless and dedicated and excited team, you are going to be able to reach your targets time and time again,

00:10:19:10 - 00:10:47:07
Lauren
better than those that maybe don't have that culture where people feel really empowered and unconstrained. And then how you enable those people is through that virtuous cycle of process, tech and data. I'm in my head seeing like a slide because I am maybe a consultant at heart now, and so that's how I can visualize it is you really have like your people at the top, and then you've got that underpinning of the process, tech and data, and then your culture is the enabler.

00:10:47:12 - 00:11:06:10
Lauren
And of course this evolves. So the inputs into those things is constantly evolving because we are in an industry that is never standing still in the same way that the conversations we're having about technology. We have technologies in a martech perspective that we weren't even talking about five years ago, whether that's your customer data platform or what have you.

00:11:06:15 - 00:11:24:08
Lauren
And same with data and AI. And so you always have to be iterating and evolving the inputs. But I think that framing of ensuring that there's a connectedness behind your process, tech and data to empower and really unleash your people is what will get you to the most high performance outcomes and culture.

00:11:24:10 - 00:12:00:05
Alison
Dividing it into the "what" and the "how" is a really powerful way to simplify a very complex topic. And then I'm in passionate agreement with you on the critical role of people and culture as really being the the secret weapon in driving true performance. When you think about the world of AI and how it's impacting very positively and potentially negatively our profession and our world, knowing that the culture and the people are such a differentiator should give everyone some comfort that while AI can be a very powerful tool, it's not going to replace us.

00:12:00:07 - 00:12:17:03
Lauren
I'm of the same mindset. At Deloitte we talk about human-led, AI-enabled, and so there are absolutely incredible use cases for us to be elevating and improving the way we work. But the human potential and the authenticity of people, that is the power.

00:12:17:05 - 00:12:38:21
Alison
And it can really help us scale. And when you think applying that to smaller businesses, it can be a very powerful competitive advantage as well. 

Lauren
Absolutely. 

Alison
So now we're going to do a little bit of myth-busting. And you've touched on this a bit. But between people, process, tech and data, what's the real unlock or the biggest myth that you'd like to bust about what actually drives performance?

00:12:38:23 - 00:13:01:00
Lauren
Yeah, I maybe, gave the plot away a little bit on the last one. I'm, passionately in the camp of people. One of the offerings that I worked with clients on when I was in the consulting business was around upskilling. And in upskilling we were bringing forward the demos around the tech and deeper understanding of the data.

00:13:01:02 - 00:13:29:22
Lauren
But one of the biggest, I think, challenges that organizations face is they invest a lot of money in the martech, a lot of money in the data, the integration of the systems, etc. and they expect that that and that alone will yield the outcomes. And then the business cases aren't being realized because they forget the fact that if you look at any go to market process, that the person that is running that process or taking you through that process, they have to have an understanding of the tech.

00:13:29:22 - 00:13:52:11
Lauren
If you are writing a brief or you are delivering on a brief, if you're a creative or your immediate team or agency, and you don't have an understanding of the tech that can segment or better personalize or dynamic creative, you're not going to be able to write or receive that brief in the same way as somebody that does have the understanding of that tech and that data.

00:13:52:13 - 00:14:20:08
Lauren
And so I think the biggest myth to bust is just the idea that you can, like, tech your way into high performance. You need the infrastructure, you need the martech, you need the connected data. But if you discount the need to upskill your people around that, or to build a culture where people get excited about that change and that progress and optimizing the tools that they use to get to market, then you won't yield the outcomes that you hoped for.

00:14:20:10 - 00:14:44:07
Alison
Very well said. Now another passion that we share is the mission critical role that marketing plays in building businesses and contributing to Canada's economy. Yet we still at times struggle to get a seat at the table. So I'd love you to share how you see marketing as a strategic growth engine, and how you've been able to fight and get that important seat at the table with Deloitte.

00:14:44:09 - 00:15:05:06
Lauren
So I think and I believe we can do this through the Canadian Marketing Association. All of the marketers need to hold hands and decide that we're just going to put the debate to bed once and for all, because has any other function in the history of business had to prove themselves and bring as much data to the table as marketing has.

00:15:05:08 - 00:15:28:07
Lauren
I don't think so. And so I think if you look at the business case of marketing as an engine for brand and growth, and again, we have brought like the data-driven empirical proof that marketing drives growth. So there is a great study around looking at the impact of brand spend. And so organizations that are having a more holistic approach to marketing.

00:15:28:11 - 00:15:51:20
Lauren
What is the impact long term on sales CAGR? And they saw that those in the bottom quartile had 13 percentage points lower CAGRs than the top quartile. We've seen digital conversion points. We've seen e-commerce and the ability to track and attribute marketing to sales. We've seen the impact of cross-sell upsell in the customer onboarding, the ability to deepen customer lifetime value.

00:15:51:22 - 00:16:21:14
Lauren
I think every organization and every marketer has the industry data to showcase brand and marketing as a driver of growth, as well as the stats and the data-driven proof points within your organization. And so I think that as long as a marketer is coming to the table with that data that we have to just put it to bed a little bit and have the confidence that we've already justified that marketing is a really, really great engine, both for brand and growth.

00:16:21:16 - 00:16:42:19
Alison
For our listeners who aren't familiar with the research that Lauren cited, we'll make sure that we add it into the notes for the podcast so that you can access it. Lauren, you have an approach to reporting on marketing measurement that would be aspirational for many of our listeners. You track marketing ROI internally with your team and focus on brand health metrics when you're presenting to the executive.

00:16:42:21 - 00:16:48:07
Alison
Can you walk us through this philosophy and how you're building credibility with the business using this process?

00:16:48:08 - 00:17:13:10
Lauren
Well, thank you for that, Alison. I would agree. We have a fantastic foundation and strategy, but of course we are on a continuous journey to be more sophisticated. And so we're actually about to start some consulting projects with our analytics and marketing teams around automation, more AI enablement. And we have a fantastic new head of marketing analytics. So it really does feel like everything is coming together.

00:17:13:10 - 00:17:41:02
Lauren
But at its core, from an approach to reporting perspective, one critical thing I'd offer, which is just that brand to demand connected reporting view. And so for us, every campaign is categorized and it supports a specific set of KPIs that is from that broader set of KPIs in our framework that tells our performance story. And then we have different levels of reporting that are all connected.

00:17:41:04 - 00:18:04:16
Lauren
And so at the highest level we have our full marketing performance story. And then there's program level reporting for each pod. And then campaign level reporting that's much more tactical and really where we see the metrics come through. And so this enables our executive and leadership team to understand the full impact. And then we can actually drill down where necessary to understand the why.

00:18:04:21 - 00:18:32:19
Lauren
Why did we hit this KPI, why didn't we? Oh this looked really great. Let's understand so we can do more of that. And so that approach has really helped us have the most accurate snapshot that we can of the impact that we make across brand, eminence and growth. And the only other thing that I will say is I am very fortunate to work at an organization that is very supportive of the work that we do around brand and client value.

00:18:32:21 - 00:18:47:11
Lauren
And so there isn't really that over-rotation on short term sales thinking that can often skew marketing strategy. And so we are fortunate for great leadership in that regard that really lets this strategy and this approach to measurement live.

00:18:47:13 - 00:18:58:03
Alison
Now this type of change doesn't happen overnight. And I know some of our listeners are going to be thinking, I would love to be in that situation. So how would you recommend they get started on this transformation?

00:18:58:07 - 00:19:26:09
Lauren
Two things that I'd say were pretty critical for us in the beginning. And the first was real conversations with the business to understand what value they need. And we weren't having conversations around, well, we can generate impressions and we can drive this many clicks. It was really just business to business conversations around, okay, so do you actually need these types of industries more aware of your services or, what type of functions do you actually need reading our content?

00:19:26:09 - 00:19:48:07
Lauren
What do you want them to learn? What do you want them to see that you have the expertise in? And so having conversations like that with the business enables us to genuinely understand what it is that we can do that can help them be successful. And then we're able to, in the background, translate that into the marketing language and the marketing metrics.

00:19:48:08 - 00:20:09:14
Lauren
And so that first thing really is just genuinely seeking to understand the value that we can add for the business and offering our perspective on the areas that can actually help, or offering data and market research to say, I don't know if you actually do have an awareness challenge. I think people are pretty aware, maybe we need to do something a little bit more engagement-driven.

00:20:09:16 - 00:20:34:16
Alison
You're also really elevating it beyond the marketing performance to, here is the business outcome and impact that we are holding ourselves accountable to and delivering against. So you're having a business conversation and marketing is obviously the key driver behind that. But the conversation you're having at the executive level is more here is the business impact the marketing team is having versus here's how our last few campaigns and initiatives performed, which is a much more important conversation.

00:20:34:21 - 00:21:04:15
Lauren
Exactly. And I think that it's important to see that partnership and with the business, like, we don't do anything without the business. It is the business sharp insights that inform our POVs. It is our business leaders that are on the podcast. It is often even the inspiration for our campaigns that we get from the business, because they're spending every day with our clients and they are understanding the challenges and the constraints that our clients feel, and they know what works and what doesn't work.

00:21:04:15 - 00:21:27:18
Lauren
And so they help even inform the human truths in our campaign. And so I think if you also think about marketing as just part of the value proposition of your organization, and you think about marketing in partnership with the business, it also stops being such a hard sell because it is truly in partnership with, rather than one function or another function doing different things.

00:21:27:20 - 00:21:51:22
Alison
But it also goes back to, you've been in the business, you've had PNL accountability. And when I am asked for advice from marketers at all levels, it really is, get in the business, be responsible for a PNL, understand how the business works, and it will make you a much better marketer. You will build a lot more credibility and accountability with your colleagues across the organization as well.

00:21:52:00 - 00:22:00:03
Alison
You mentioned you're in the messy middle of your transformation. So what's working well, and what are some of the unexpected obstacles or surprises you've encountered?

00:22:00:05 - 00:22:26:01
Lauren
The messy middle is the best part. And so I will say we are having a lot of fun because this is where you have the most license to test, to learn and explore. And that is probably the first thing I'd say that is going really well. I am very fortunate to have an incredible team. They are driven, they have growth mindset and really both feet in on this transformation.

00:22:26:06 - 00:22:51:00
Lauren
And that is everything. Because you can teach any skill, but you cannot teach curiosity, passion and drive. And I really do feel like every day we wake up and we're focused on progress. You can see that come through in the fact that our upskilling programs have near perfect attendance. And so that is the heart of transformation. And I will say, I truly just feel honoured to be part of this team.

00:22:51:00 - 00:23:16:13
Lauren
And so that's where all of it starts. And that's what helps you get through the messy middle. Along with seeing the signals that it's working. And so the first part of that is that we are learning there are many channels that B2B can thrive in and reach your target audience, and that's been really energizing and motivating for our people, because we're able to build our own playbook and we are able to innovate in a really effective way,

00:23:16:13 - 00:23:38:15
Lauren
when you're starting to see the data show that whether it is engagement, whether it is reaching your target audience, whether it is things like leads, that the things that you're testing are actually translating to great results. And so we talk all the time about how we don't want to be part of sort of the stagnancy of the B2B marketing industry.

00:23:38:15 - 00:23:59:07
Lauren
We want to break rules. We want to do things differently. And so seeing the results is really motivating and validating. And then the other part of that is the signals that we're actually hearing from clients. And so the results and the feedback is promising. Part of what we are looking to do is be seen as an extension of the value proposition of Deloitte.

00:23:59:09 - 00:24:22:08
Lauren
And so we want to be able to bring valuable insights and expert thinking and different perspectives from the field to our clients in engaging and consumable formats. And so we've had clients reach out to their partners from our business about the podcast episodes they listened to or the content they saw them featured in and sharing their appreciation or sharing

00:24:22:08 - 00:24:44:20
Lauren
I learned something, or I didn't know that you did that or I actually could use your help on that. And so that really validates the performance data we're seeing and signals that we're on the right track. In terms of what we have learned the hard way, I'd offer two things. The first is around just ensuring that you are consistent and very repetitive.

00:24:44:22 - 00:25:07:13
Lauren
You, as the leader, might say something 15 times, but it actually only goes to certain audiences or certain individuals on your team once. And so ensuring that you are just consistent and repetitive is important, especially because there is so much change as you are progressing and evolving and optimizing and testing and scaling. There is so much that does change.

00:25:07:16 - 00:25:34:16
Lauren
So ensuring that you are consistent on things like your mandate or things like the strategy and the fixed parts is incredibly important. And if I could go back, I probably would ensure that I was doing that more at scale. So that everybody was getting those consistent messages throughout versus maybe those just reaching some. And then the other thing I would offer is based on something I heard recently, actually, that was "you don't know what you know."

00:25:34:18 - 00:26:04:11
Lauren
And that's important because if you're designing things, you're going to be making you know, and maybe assuming that that's common practice for everyone. And so ensuring that you have cross-functional groups, just gut checking things along the way, or ensuring that you have feedback loops built in as you're managing through any change in process, digital channel execution, reporting, whatever that might be.

00:26:04:13 - 00:26:19:18
Lauren
That is also really critical. And so those are probably the two things that I would reflect and say, I probably could have caught on a little bit sooner to make sure that I was making it easier for everyone and ensuring that we were really productively moving through our transformation.

00:26:19:20 - 00:26:35:05
Alison
I love the twist on the line - typically it's "you don't know what you don't know", but I love the twist on "you don't know what you know", and when you're having conversations across the team, across your organization, you can't, often we can assume, well, if I know it they must know it. So that that's a really good light bulb moment for sure.

00:26:35:07 - 00:26:54:00
Alison
The other part that really resonates is the power and the need for repetition. There's some great research that says the average person needs to hear the same message on average seven times before it sinks in. And when you're the person responsible for saying it, you're thinking, oh my god, how can I possibly say this again and have them not understand it?

00:26:54:01 - 00:27:04:12
Alison
So it's a really good level set to remind yourself. With all the ways we're bombarded with communications, we really do need to hear something seven times for it to really, truly sink.

00:27:04:14 - 00:27:21:21
Lauren
I think all of us can relate to that as well, because there's nothing better than consistent messaging and consistent leadership. And especially in an industry that is changing so rapidly, you already have to embrace change, and you already have to know that the best thing to do one quarter ago might not be the best thing to do anymore.

00:27:22:01 - 00:27:33:03
Lauren
So at least if you are consistent in your strategy and your direction and the things that matter most, and you're extra repetitive in those, I think we can all relate to how helpful that is.

00:27:33:05 - 00:27:58:13
Alison
Absolutely. Now, Lauren, you've transformed your team's relationship with business partners and very much moved away from a service provider to a truly strategic partner who's co-creating rather than seeking approval. So you've touched a bit on this, but it's such an important topic and relevant topic for our listeners. I'd love you to talk a bit more about how you facilitated the transition, and what advice would you give to other marketers looking to elevate their role?

00:27:58:15 - 00:28:23:02
Lauren
It's a great question, Alison, but full kudos goes to the team because they are showing up every day with expertise and credibility, and that is what it takes. I will say though, I feel like this is just the tip of the iceberg for us. And so as we continue to build and progress and drive results, we will be seen more and more as the powerhouse that this team is.

00:28:23:04 - 00:28:54:03
Lauren
But there are a couple of things that we were very intentional about as part of this transformation that did really, really help us. And the first is just building that infrastructure. And so I've mentioned it before, but upskilling our new go to market, digital and audience strategy, tech enablement, AI, templates, we really put in the work so that we could show up and be excellent so that when you meet with marketing, it is a strategic, professional and value-add experience.

00:28:54:05 - 00:29:20:02
Lauren
And we continue to work on that every single day. And so that's the first pieces that once you have that infrastructure, once people are clear on what it is they're doing, what the outcome of those interactions are, then you continue to just show up really well to your business, and that earns and demands respect. The second piece is just ensuring that your team is empowered to be confident and have fun when they're working with the business.

00:29:20:04 - 00:29:43:23
Lauren
It is really easy to feel intimidated when you are working with such deep subject matter experts in their fields. And obviously, that is our experience at Deloitte and I'm sure for many others. And so we have to remind ourselves that, while they're experts in their trade, we are also experts in our craft. And marketing has become a technology- driven, data-driven function.

00:29:44:00 - 00:30:08:08
Lauren
And so while we don't understand everything that they're saying, they also don't understand everything that we know about marketing. And so we've really encouraged our team members to have the confidence to say, "I don't understand that, tell me more." Or "I'd really like to understand it from this angle." Whereas when you are maybe a bit more intimidated and trying to show up like, no, I actually do understand everything about your business,

00:30:08:10 - 00:30:27:10
Lauren
you're not going to be able to get to the meat of it. And then that prevents great marketing, because if we don't understand what it is we're marketing, how are our clients possibly going to understand that? And as marketing, you are reaching hundreds of thousands of people with your messages every day, which is a scale that nobody else in the business has.

00:30:27:13 - 00:30:45:18
Lauren
And so it is really important that you just have that confidence to ask questions and have dialogue and have a little bit of fun while you're at it, so that everybody walks away feeling like that was a great conversation and you walk away clear on what it is you needed to learn. And then lastly, clear and collaborative swim lanes.

00:30:45:20 - 00:31:09:18
Lauren
So business, risk and control partners in marketing have to be operating in a trio. And one of the big shifts that we moved from as we look to be more of a strategic advisor is seeking knowledge and not opinions. Sometimes what's being discussed, it is the marketing expertise or it is a brand risk as opposed to a regulation or compliance risk.

00:31:09:20 - 00:31:38:17
Lauren
And so if the business wants to provide a perspective on the headline or the format or what have you, that is sometimes an area we have to hold the line on and say, hey, we've got the the data and the rationale and the strategy that justifies the approach that we're taking. In the same way that we would not pretend that we should be the ones to advise on the sharp insights in the perspective or the framework, or tell them, I don't think you should actually be consulting to your clients in these ways.

00:31:38:18 - 00:31:56:00
Lauren
And so it is about ensuring that everybody understands and is open to having dialogue, so that you can get to the best outcome possible. But sometimes that does mean us holding the line on where it is that we own that decision, or where we have the value and the expertise versus the business or the control partners.

00:31:56:06 - 00:32:11:03
Alison
That's outstanding feedback and advice. Now, I'm very blessed to have senior leaders like you on the podcast, so I end every episode by asking my guests to share one piece of career advice that you would offer to people who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:32:11:05 - 00:32:33:22
Lauren
I would say the most important thing is to be a capability collector. Especially in an industry like marketing that is so multifaceted across brand and integrated marketing and creative and digital and tech and data, I think as many capabilities that you can collect throughout your career, it makes you more well-rounded. And even those that are deep in a craft,

00:32:33:22 - 00:32:57:18
Lauren
like my background, is more the digital marketer. If you still get enough understanding to be dangerous in the other areas, it will make you more well-rounded whatever depth or breadth that you have. And so I think just ensuring that you're very intentional about collecting capabilities as you go, asking the questions, doing the research, being proactive, that will help anybody get ahead.

00:32:57:20 - 00:33:17:00
Alison
It's always been great advice in marketing, but when we think about the speed with which our profession and our consumers are evolving, being a capability collector and having that as a core skill that you possess will only bode well for anyone in this profession today and in the years ahead. So, Lauren, thank you. It has been an absolute delight.

00:33:17:01 - 00:33:22:04
Alison
Definitely a highly informative and insight-rich conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time.

00:33:22:06 - 00:33:28:21
Lauren
Thank you for having me.

00:33:28:23 - 00:40:16:19
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Are you upskilling fast enough to stay ahead of AI and tech disruption? Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Mark Beckles, CEO of Palette Skills, who's leading Canada's largest upskilling initiative. With 71% of workers wanting to upgrade their skills regularly, Mark reveals how the Palette Skills program upskills people in weeks - not months. From generating $200 million in economic output to reshaping careers, learn why Mark believes the future of work belongs to those who pursue 'latticed' careers instead of climbing traditional ladders.

[00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

[00:00:23] Alison: The future of work is here as artificial intelligence and tech disruption reshape entire industries at breakneck speed. The question isn't whether Canadian workers need to upskill, but whether we can do it fast enough to stay ahead of the change and keep our country thriving. For today's episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Mark Beckles, Chief Executive Officer at Palette Skills.

[00:00:45] Alison: Mark joined Palette Skills in July and shares our passion for upskilling Canadians to ensure that they can innovate and compete both here at home as well as globally. Mark brings more than 25 years of senior leadership experience in financial services and the nonprofit sector known for driving large transformational initiatives and delivering true business value.

[00:01:05] Alison: At RBC, Mark led the Future Launch initiative that equipped 5.5 million young Canadians for the future of work. He also spearheaded RBC Upskill, a national tool that helps individuals align their skills with emerging careers. Previously, Mark served as President and CEO of the Nelson Mandela Children's Fund for Canada. 

[00:01:24] Alison: At Palette Skills, Mark and his team are leading Canada's largest upskilling initiative. His work is particularly timely as tech disruption, especially AI, are continuing to reshape entire industries and redefine what skills will be most valuable in the future. What makes Mark's perspective particularly valuable is just front row seat to workforce transformation through pallet skills programs.

[00:01:47] Alison: He can see not just what skills employers are seeking, but why they're upskilling their employees, which really provides some great early insights into how tech is driving change across Canada's economy in every province. With ongoing discussions about Canada's productivity gap, Mark's insights into upskilling and innovation couldn't be more relevant or timelier.

[00:02:07] Alison: Welcome, Mark. I am absolutely thrilled to have you join me on CMA Connect today.

[00:02:11] Mark: Thank you for having me on, Alison, such a pleasure to be here with you today. 

Alison: Now I want to kick things off by hearing more about your career journey. In particular, I'd love to know what drew you to focus on social responsibility throughout your career, and what made the transition to Palette Skills such a natural fit for you?

[00:02:28] Mark: Well, thanks for the question, Alison. I, I would start by saying that I spent most of my time, most of my career in corporate, but there was one intersectional moment in the early 2000s where I made a conscious decision to step away and to invest my skills in the nonprofit sector. And for context, I, you know, developed these skills around risk management when I was, uh, working in the insurance sector and discovered that these skills were easily transferable to the nonprofit sector where I worked in relief development at first and then had the awesome opportunity to, uh, then work for the Nelson Mandela Children's Fund for a number of of years.

[00:03:12] Mark: And, uh, as a result of that, I became acutely aware of this notion that profit and purpose can coexist in the same ecosystem, and that I could more effectively translate the language of the nonprofit sector to the corporate sector and the language of the corporate sector to the nonprofit sector, because of course, one's from Mars and the other from Venus.

[00:03:33] Mark: But in having this sort of cross sector experience or these cross-sector experiences, it really has enriched my life and really helped me understand the ways in which I can help create value for society by bringing these really strong corporate skills to the nonprofit sector and taking a real deep understanding of the issues and challenges, uh, facing the nonprofit sector rather, and what they're trying to solve, and making sure that the corporate sector and governments and other stakeholders understand. 

[00:04:03] Mark: And so in the context of Palette Skills, I just absolutely enjoy the work that we're doing because we're actually helping to ensure that we can sort of fuel Canada's economic prosperity. 

Alison: It's such a great personal example because when you think about working in a big bank, working in risk in the insurance sector, and then moving to nonprofit, a lot of our listeners, a lot of people would think, how is that possible?

[00:04:26] Alison: You're gonna be starting from scratch and not really appreciate how transferable those skills are. In my career, I've had similar opportunities where I've worked in very, very different industries, yet some of the challenges are the same, and the skills are a lot more transferable than many people assume.

[00:04:42] Mark: So I like that you have that personal perspective as you're going into head one of Canada's largest upskilling programs as well. 

Mark: Absolutely. I, I think to a large degree, most employees, most Canadians, don't understand or appreciate the extent to which their skills are actually transferrable across careers and across sectors.

[00:05:01] Mark: And that's one of the great joys of the work that we do, that I did at RBC, and now that we do it at Upscale Canada, to help workers to help employees understand the transferability of skills of workers. 

Alison: Absolutely. Yeah, diversity of experience, diversity of thought makes us all better at what we do, so it's a great, great confirmation.

[00:05:19] Alison: I mentioned in my opening that we are absolutely seeing unprecedented tech disruption, particularly with AI. So you clearly have a front row seat to workforce transformation, and I'd love to hear what early trends are you seeing in terms of how and why employers are upskilling their employees. 

[00:05:37] Mark: It's a great question Alison. Uh, a couple of things I would offer, first of which is upskilled workers get the most up to date skills and are ready to hit the ground running in four months or less. And these are employees who have an immediate impact. And the second is that workforce development is critical and cannot start when people are in the workforce.

[00:05:57] Mark: Uh, and such that we need to be thinking about upskilling as a tool of lifelong learning. And these programs can adapt at speed and they can innovate and modernize, making them essential for job seekers and for businesses who are looking to adapt. So the constant change that we are seeing in sectors like yours, like marketing for example, education and training can no longer be once and done.

[00:06:22] Mark: And for those of us who've had careers over time know that we have actually had to undergo, uh, upskilling or reskilling, whether formal or informal ways. So, so that, you know, to Upskill Canada, we maximize our impact when we work with multiple stakeholders, corporate partnerships and funders and employers and delivery partners.

[00:06:42] Mark: It's not just about employers who are looking to hire for these up-to-date skills. We also serve employers who want to up, uh, upskill their employees as well. I think of RBC funding at the level of $500,000 for a program that supports small and medium sized enterprises and responsible adoption of AI technology, and that will be launched in 2026.

[00:07:07] Mark: And that's an example of how when working with corporate partners, we can accelerate the impact that we're trying to have. But of course, business leaders and employees and job seekers will be upskilled in weeks, not months as a result of that investment. The other thing that we know is that 71% of workers

[00:07:25] Mark: absolutely want to update their skills more often. And 80% believe that employers should invest, uh, more in providing upskilling and reskilling. So upskilling helps with employee retention and uh, and employee satisfaction. And I would say that we can even work with employers to develop the programming

[00:07:44] Mark: they need to make sure that their employees have the right skills to do their jobs more efficiently and more effectively. So when we talk about upskilling employees, it's an ongoing opportunity, an ongoing process. And you know, any sector that wants to be successful is gonna have to turn attention to ensuring that they're billing that robust human capital to ensure that they're competitive.

[00:08:09] Alison: It's such a compelling stat that so many Canadian workers want to update their skills, and you make a great point that that's a surefire way to improve employee retention and employee satisfaction. What do you think holds employers back from doing more upskilling? 

Mark: I think one of the issues and challenges that holds employers back is

[00:08:28] Mark: oftentimes, particularly in small businesses, they don't know what they need in terms of, you know, where they need to upskill their employees. Oftentimes, small organizations don't have, uh, the capital, the, the, the resources to be able to upskill and reskill, uh, in real time. Oftentimes, they're unaware of the, the challenges that they are facing.

[00:08:49] Mark: Yet you have employees who often can see before  their employers do the kinds of skills that, that they, the employees will need to thrive and to prosper and to help their, uh, employers thrive and prosper. So that, I think there, there needs to be greater attention and awareness on the part of businesses to understand, you know, the skills needs of their employees and what those employers will need to focus on

[00:09:13] Mark: to ensure that they can sustain their businesses, that they can continue to compete, particularly in a world that is rapidly changing, where the challenges of tomorrow are gonna be very different from the challenges of yesterday, and that the fight for survival and, and the war for talent is going to be real, and that employers are gonna have to spend more attention, understanding where they need to compete.

[00:09:37] Alison: Small and medium enterprises really drive Canada's economy, so to ensure they have the upskilled talent they need to continue thriving both here and globally is mission critical. And then when I think about the role Upskill Canada and Palette are playing, like that's an amazing resource for SMEs to be able to leverage in order to help upskill their teams and their talent so they can compete.

[00:10:01] Alison: Now I'd love to talk specifically, clearly my bias, specifically more about marketing and creative professionals. So how do you think marketers need to approach upskilling differently given the rapid pace of tech change, especially around AI? 

Mark: That's a great question, because you know at first sight one might conclude that your space is ripe for disruption, and to some degree it is.

[00:10:24] Mark: But this is where upskilling model allows for these sorts of pivots where upskilling can rapidly evolve and train people efficiently in response to the issues and challenges and opportunities that you're seeing in your space. So the programs like Digital Marketing Skills Canada are pivoting to make sure that marketers get the right skills for a long career.

[00:10:46] Mark: And Alison, I know that the CMA has made a few pivots, even adapting to serving new sectors, and your programs have been updated. Perhaps you might wanna share with me what CMA has done about the success of the DMSC. 

Alison: Mark, thanks for turning the table on me in my typical role of host. I'm more than happy to answer that question.

[00:11:05] Alison: So, as you mentioned, the CMA leads the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, and we deliver training programs in partnership with Growclass and Jelly Academy. So we have courses that provide crucial digital marketing and business skills for marketers at every stage, including people that are brand new and want to change industries, want to get into marketing to quite senior.

[00:11:24] Alison: And the CMA and our partners also provide mission critical AI training, and that's been one of the important pivots we've made. As AI continues to evolve, we're constantly updating and refreshing our programming to make sure that our graduates are well positioned to really leverage these skills to grow businesses and brands.

[00:11:42] Alison: And then I'll, I'll brag a little bit. So since we launched the DMSC program in 2024, we've now upskilled 1900 marketing professionals from every province across the country, and we have a couple in the Yukon as well, and after upgrading their marketing skills, our graduates have gone on to support over seven hundred

[00:12:00] Alison: small and medium enterprises and really help those businesses grow their businesses, grow their sales, and really contribute job placement. So once they graduate, we have a track record of placing 75% of our graduates into a new role. And then we've also done a very good job of

[00:12:22] Alison: really supporting underrepresented groups. It was part of our original submission to DMSC and a really important priority for the CMA and our partners. So we have over 70% of our graduates and learners are from underrepresented groups, and that's just a sign of our deep commitment to EDI and, and a positive impact that we're having to make sure that the marketing profession is as equitable and diverse as the country that we represent.

[00:12:48] Mark: That is absolutely fantastic. Those are, those are stats that, uh, the CMA should be proud of. And when you think of this Pan-Canadian approach that you have, you know, delivering a program that is digital first, that is inclusive, uh, that allows for participation right across the country, that strengthens your sector, that creates, uh, career opportunities,

[00:13:13] Mark: that is inclusive. Those are all the things that make these programs successful, and I, I truly think that CMA should be really proud of those outcomes. And we are just so thrilled to be partnering with you on this. 

Alison: We hope together we're just getting started. We see a very bright future for sure, and there's certainly a significant need.

[00:13:30] Alison: We've got wait lists in the hundreds, so the more successful we are, the more we're seeing people raise their hand to want to be a part of it. Now from when Upskills Canada's initiative was first formed to today, what are the major changes that you've seen in upskilling needs across Canada? 

Mark: Well, the first thing I would say is because the program and the upskilling model is, is employer-led, it means that we are able to adjust programs and and to sort of meet

[00:13:57] Mark: the demands of employers as the, as the market shifts. And then of course, given the economic changes we are seeing, those changes require us to be increasingly more, uh, responsive to changes at the sector level. And of course, given that there is a growing number of workers in tariff hit industries that will need support, we will have to continue to be increasingly more adaptive and responsive to, to the needs of employers and to the needs of employees. Upskill Canada programs then are designed exactly to be adaptive

[00:14:38] Mark: and to allow for pivots along with, uh, the job market. And, and when we talk about rapid upskilling, it's because it's not going to take a worker two or four years to get the critical skills that they need. It's going to take a matter of, uh, of weeks. And that is again, the beauty of the Upskill Canada program.

[00:15:00] Mark: The flexibility, the adaptability of it, the ability to change and respond to what's happening in markets and, and sectors in, in real time. And when I think of where we need to go as a country, our ability to flex and, and pivot, given some of the geopolitical challenges that we are being confronted with, will require us to do that at pace and at scale.

[00:15:25] Alison: The DMSC programs is a great example of a few of the things that you've talked about. We, to your point, it, our programs are six or seven weeks. Now I will say they are an intense six or seven weeks, but our graduates come out of that with the skills they need to really do modern marketing and thrive. And then the pivoting based on where tariffs are coming and going,

[00:15:44] Mark: the Canadian industries that need greater support. Advanced manufacturing is a great example of that where, when Palette and the Government came and said, we need more support in agritech and advanced manufacturing, we were very quickly able to pivot our programs and customize those for those industries in need and deliver in a matter of weeks instead of months.

[00:16:04] Alison: So it's a really powerful element of what you're doing at Palette Skills through the Upskill Canada program as well. And when we look at the broader picture, knowing that Canada does have a productivity gap and that fueling innovation is so mission critical to our growth, why is workforce development in your perspective so critical to both productivity as well as our country's ability to innovate?

[00:16:28] Mark: That was a great question and, and I, I would answer that question in the context of the bold ambition that, that, that Prime Minister Carney has, uh, articulated and has continued to articulate for the last number of months. To which I would say that Canada will not be able to meet even the ambitious goals that he has set without a national skill strategy, which must include upskilling.

[00:16:53] Mark: I am deeply happy to see his announcements, for example, on national projects and so on. But those projects won't happen without people and the supply chains into those projects won't happen without people. Whether those supply chains are, are, are digital, whether they are focused on marketing, whether they're focused on communications, whether they're focused on infrastructure, regardless, won't happen without people.

[00:17:21] Mark: So when I talk about a national skill strategy to include upskilling, it is to ensure that in the delivery of any and all of those projects, there needs to be a focus on people. Because Canada is grappling with an unprecedented shift in the economic fundamentals that have, uh, allowed for our prosperity to this point.

[00:17:41] Mark: But if we don't invest in workforce development, we risk leaving billions of productivity and innovation untapped with talent sidelined instead of contributing to the industries that need them the most. I think we recognize that there's a growing reality that right skilled workers will be the key to our prosperity and resilience.

[00:18:04] Mark: So whether it is a large scale workforce development that requires a national collaborative model that aligns training with industry, and that needs to be connected to talent and connecting talent to opportunity quickly to ensure that that happens, that's where we need to focus our attention. But ultimately, Canada's prosperity

[00:18:23] Mark: depends on ensuring that we are providing people, equipping people with the right skills at the right time so that we can seize the opportunities in the industries that drive our future. 

Alison: Building on what you said earlier as well, agility. We need to be able to turn around so quickly, and that's one of the proven, I would say, superpowers of what you're doing at Palette, what we're doing with DMSC, the fact that we can do that in a matter of weeks and really enable our

[00:18:54] Alison: Canadians across the country to be more agile and to deliver on the business needs of today, that's really important. 

Mark: It's a great point, and I think we need to take that, uh, we need to take that approach more aggressively across many different industry sets. I think we spend a lot of time thinking about larger scale concepts and learning opportunities, which,

[00:19:19] Mark: because they're not rapid in nature, actually slow the progress that we are trying to make. And you know, if we, if we can think about pivoting, if we can think about building resilience, if we can think about, uh, adapting more quickly, Canada will be the better for it. No question. 

Alison: Absolutely. We share that passion for sure.

[00:19:37] Alison: Now you mentioned that upskilling can no longer be a once and done effort, and it's due to a lot of things, in particular technological change. And when I think about what we're teaching our learners, we're equipping them with the skills they need today, probably even more importantly, we're teaching them how to learn. Because we are only at the beginning of Ai.

[00:19:56] Alison: It is evolving every hour, let alone every week, let alone every month. So the ability to learn how to learn and to know that that's the new life skill you need to thrive is an important part of what we're doing. So how do we ensure that workers stay ahead of the pace of change? And what does lifelong learning look like in practice?

[00:20:16] Mark: Yeah, and, and that's a question that, you know, creates other questions for who see themselves potentially at risk of being disintermediated by technology. And I think part of it is acknowledging that technology is changing more quickly than it ever has in previous industrial revolutions. What I would describe as this fourth industrial revolution, which is about technological change.

[00:20:44] Mark: Digital technology is different in the sense that machines now control machines and there's in some cases very little need for human intervention. So that the opportunity is to think about those roles and opportunities that are not at risk of immediate disintermediation, and so looking to the future to understand, you know, what those opportunities look like and to stay ahead, engaging in a process of lifelong learning that ensures that we are ready for those jobs as they emerge.

[00:21:18] Mark: The one thing we know about previous industrial revolutions is that while jobs change, incrementally more jobs emerge. The level of technological change that we're seeing today means that jobs are going to change incrementally more quickly than they ever have in the past. The question is whether jobs will emerge as quickly as they have in previous, uh, industrial revolutions.

[00:21:43] Mark: And so that's why we are gonna have to be thinking about what those jobs look like, where are they by sector, and how do we ensure that we are rapidly upskilling Canadian workers so that they can, they can, they can do meaningful work and contribute to their employers and, and, and to their countries.

[00:22:00] Mark: And so taking, talking to Upskill Canada alumni, not only have they been telling us that they're happy that they have gone through these programs, they're also excited about, uh, future learning opportunities and that in itself is a valuable skill. The idea that one wants to continue learning, so that one has up to date and relevant skills to pivot and adapt as, uh, the economy needs us to.

[00:22:25] Alison: So Mark, what kind of impact do you envision Pallete Skills upskilling initiatives will have on the broader Canadian economy, especially given the speed at which the landscape is changing today? 

Mark: So we, so we are just, uh, undertaking our new mission and vision for year 2030, where we are committing to a better, skilled, more adaptable and equitable workforce that fuels a thriving Canadian economy.

[00:22:53] Mark: And what that enables and is driven by, is firstly incubating workforce solutions and products that allow for the Canadian workforce and employers and employees to really think about how they can help fuel the thriving Canadian economy. The second is increasing access to upskill talent, which is core to the program that we deliver right now.

[00:23:18] Mark: And then thirdly, adapting to the future of work. And by that I mean really anticipating where the future of work is going, where skills are gonna be required to ensure that we are right skilling and, and, and upskilling the right talent at the right time for the right sectors, for the right roles, to ensure that as the future of work changes, we are ready to be able to work with employers to ensure that their, uh, their talent is upskilled.

[00:23:44] Mark: And when I think about the, the impacts of, uh, tariffs and other geopolitical issues, this whole notion of anticipating future work comes into really sharp focus. But we're also looking at the full continuum of a worker's professional life and what might be needed to ensure that we address Canada's talent gap.

[00:24:03] Mark: For example, everyone's talking about the challenges faced by youth as they enter the professional space, but no one is speaking in terms of the opportunity that this yet untapped talent provides, and so if we can think about young people, not as a group of, uh, of, of individuals floating away on an ice drift somewhere, but as part of a sort of integrated workforce talent strategy that allows them to move from school to work into sectors that are in demand, into jobs that are in demand, we can actually build a sustainable workforce that helps, as I said before, fuel a thriving Canadian economy.

[00:24:39] Alison: I can't imagine a more needed and relevant vision. So I'm looking forward to seeing what you're accomplishing in the years ahead. I also wanna look back a little bit because Palette Skills has been around for a number of years. You've got an amazing mandate from the government and you've accomplished a tremendous amount.

[00:24:55] Alison: So I'd love you to share with our listeners some of the, uh, success metrics from the overall program. 

Mark: So, uh, at Palette Skills, you know, over the last three years with the Upskill Canada program, we have been able to upskill close to 11,000 workers. We are on track to upskill about 18,000 by the end of our mandate, uh, March 31st of, of next year.

[00:25:20] Mark: You know, 75% of the participants of our program report is being new to Canada by five years, which means that quite a number of employers are onboarding and integrating new Canadians into into the workforce, and that I think is driving a lot of our success. Quite a number of participants of our programs, you know, coast to coast coast report, receiving a significant, uh, increase in pay or salary once they go through these, uh, these rapid upskilling programs and report their satisfaction with the experience.

[00:25:55] Mark: But more fundamentally, what we also know is that based on the numbers of individuals that have been upskilled and based on the increased economic and productivity output that they have driven, in aggregate, we are able to have generated through the Upskill program an additional, uh, $200 million in economic output.

[00:26:16] Mark: And so we know that the program works. We know the model works, and we are looking forward to being able to extend this program and increase, uh, the numbers of employees that are upskilled and integrated into new jobs and new sectors as our economic fundamentals change. I can't think of a program that is more relevant and more important to the success of the Canadian economy than the work that we and other, uh, organizations like yours and the broader workforce ecosystem are doing to ensure that, uh, workers are adequately upskilled and supported.

[00:26:50] Alison: That is incredible success and we talked about what do we need to do to fill the productivity gap and ensure that Canada can continue to innovate. And for the last three years you've been doing it. So huge shout out to you and your team for delivering outstanding results for sure. Now I'm very lucky to host talented leaders on CMA Connect.

[00:27:06] Alison: So I always end each episode by asking my guests to share one piece of career advice. So we absolutely have listeners who are tuning in today that aspire to be a CEO one day. So, Mark, given your impressive career, you've been in financial services, social responsibility, workforce development, what advice would you give to those listeners who would like to be a CEO one day?

[00:27:29] Mark: Um, well, speaking, speaking about my experiences, the one thing that I've come to appreciate is that, you know, career success is not linear, and that one has to be willing to take risks and the, the real opportunities and learning and the experiences actually come through the willingness or one's willingness to take chances. 

[00:27:53] Mark: And to take chances outside the sectors that you feel that you are qualified for or some young people will say, you know, to, to use the degree that I sort of qualified in, so to speak. I've learned, and, and my own experience has been that my career has been latticed. It has not been laddered. But every time I've stepped across to another career or another experience,

[00:28:17] Mark: at some point in time, I've been able to make an upward move, and so the more, the more willing one is to take risks to recognize that careers don't have to be linear, and that the growth really comes from taking sort of latticed approaches to one's career, one can find meaningful experiences, growth opportunities, and really have impact

[00:28:40] Mark: in ways that one might not have if one stays in one vertical, and hopes against hope to move up the ladder to the role of CEO. 

Alison: I absolutely love that advice when I think about the latticed approach. Every time you make a sideways or lateral move, you're learning new skills. Every time you work in a different industry, you're learning new skills, and that ultimately opens up a lot more pathways and a lot more opportunities to step up as well.

[00:29:04] Alison: So absolutely love the advice. 

Mark: Absolutely. 

Alison: So Mark, I know you're incredibly busy. Thank you so much for being generous with your time. It's been a great conversation. And I also want to personally thank you for the amazing partnership with you and your team. We are making such an important impact in the marketing profession in Canada, and you're making it on the broader Canadian professions as well, and really helping ensure that Canada can be incredibly productive, incredibly innovative, and really grow our GDP.

[00:29:33] Alison: So from my heart, thank you very much for an amazing partnership. 

Mark: Thank you Alison. Thank you for having me on. And again, it's a partnership that we value and we're committed to working with you over the longer term, so keep doing what you guys are doing.

[00:29:51] Presenter: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit thecma.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Can Canadian innovation change the world? In today's episode, Alison Simpson interviews Mark Mandato, Senior Manager of Key Growth Initiatives at CBC, and Chris Sewell, CEO & Founder of Net Zero Media. With advertising emissions approaching 4% of global emissions—rivalling the entire aviation industry—and 74% of Canadians factoring sustainability into their purchasing decisions, this partnership is pioneering breakthrough measurement technology. Discover how CBC and Net Zero Media are giving marketers the precise data they need to track their campaigns' carbon impact and make informed decisions that benefit both their bottom line and the planet.

Presenter  0:01  
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's Marketing Podcast where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson,

Alison  0:25  
The advertising industry accounts for as much as 2% of global carbon emissions from digital alone, with total advertising approaching 4% of all global emissions. That actually rivals the entire aviation industry. But here's what is particularly relevant for us as Canadian marketers. 74% of Canadians consider sustainability important when making purchasing decisions, and two thirds say they're willing to pay above average prices for products that have a lower carbon footprint. Plus 70% of TSX 60 companies have already committed to net zero emissions by 2050. Canadian marketers are sitting at a pivotal moment and navigating both unprecedented consumer expectations as well as evolving compliance requirements. This can create both opportunity and urgency for our profession. While consumer demand accelerates and regulatory frameworks tighten, we're seeing genuine innovation emerge right here at home. Today, we're exploring how Canadian innovation is setting new global benchmarks for environmental responsibility in advertising. CBC is pioneering sustainable media practices that are best in class, not just in Canada but globally. With the breakthrough measurement technologies that are giving marketers the precise, actionable data that they need to track their campaign's carbon impact. Today, I'm joined by Mark Mandato, who is Senior Manager of Growth Initiatives for the CBC. At the CBC, he is leading initiatives to position Canada's national broadcaster as a sustainability leader in Media Solutions. Mark's background spans Rogers Communications and Media Propulsion Laboratory, and he brings a unique commercial perspective to CBC's groundbreaking environmental programs. I'm also joined by Chris Sewell, the Head of Research and Co-founder of Net Zero Media. Chris is the technical architect behind carbon measurement methodologies that are revolutionizing how we understand advertising's environmental impact. Since developing his world leading methodology for quantifying carbon emissions and media activities back in 2007, Chris has worked with leading global brands, proving that sustainability and marketing effectiveness are not mutually exclusive. So welcome Chris and Mark. I am absolutely thrilled to have you both with me today, and I'm looking forward to diving into this conversation that matters more than ever for Canadian marketers.

Mark  2:45  
Thank you. Great to be here. 

Chris  2:47  
Good to be here. 

Alison  3:14  
So Mark,let's start with the fundamental question. Given everything else that's competing for marketers'  attention right now, whether it's AI, tariffs, economic pressures, why should sustainability be a priority for marketing and media professionals? 

Mark  3:02  
Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question to start off with. I think, I think it's gone from being a nice to have in a marketer's, you know, repertoire of things they have to worry about, down to an essential business imperative. Right? So it affects your brand's reputation, it can affect the consumer behaviour and even financial performance. So you had briefly mentioned that as of today, I think there's 301 companies that have signed on for the, you know, the net carbon zero for 2050, and it's appearing in annual reports as something that they are reporting against on a go forward basis. 

Mark  3:32  
So at one point it was like, yes, it was a nice thing to do because it was a right thing to do for the planet, but now it has actual business impact that's related to the marketing department. So that's why sustainability has to come back onto the radar. It's not going away. It's not something that's going to get sort of better on its own. So having the ability to report on a granular level is becoming more and more important for marketers.

Alison  3:54  
That's great to hear. It's obviously mission critical from a planet  perspective, but to see the business impact, to see the customer demand and increase the expectation, and now to have an ability to actually track it, is everything coming together, you know, the way it's meant to. Chris, you've been measuring advertising's carbon impact for over a decade. So for companies that are already tracking campaign metrics, why is carbon measurement important, and why does it matter for their bottom line?

Chris  4:23  
Actually, Alison, it's getting on for two decades, which I suppose shows both my commitment and my stubbornness in this area. Yeah, the importance of carbon measurement is often overlooked by the marketing team as they are busily focused on existing business objectives, which as we know today, are getting m ore and more challenging. The carbon emanating from the marketing budget is being measured and reported today. It's just being managed by other parts of the organization, so there's not necessarily a clear line of sight, and there's two reasons this has been done and how it affects the bottom line. As Mark was saying, 70% of TSX companies are actually have net zero targets, and therefore someone has to be measuring what's occurring today. 

Chris  5:10  
So there's two reasons why this is important. Obviously, to meet those targets, but also how it affects the bottom line. Firstly, these companies who are talking about targets, are legally compelled to understand and report future business prospects. So this is a business, it's got nothing to do with climate at the moment, but, climate change is there as a reality. Therefore they have to take this into account when they're saying what's going to happen in the future. So this requires analysis of the external risks that are going to occur in future years, and the current emissions from the area of the business that's occurring today, which includes the marketing spend. 

Chris  5:50  
So market emissions are being measured and reported using what's called, currently is a spend based method. This is where each dollar spent on marketing, regardless of what channel or the activity, is converted into a carbon equivalent based on the local market factor. So it's a simple thing. I spend $100, we convert it by that factor, that's how much carbon on the site, regardless of what's actually occurring. It's a flat number. Everything is actually counted the same. So while this covers any internal or external legal or voluntary portion requirements that these companies are using, it does nothing to help understand the carbon intensity areas of spend. As I said, every dollar is given the same carbon value, and that's just not true. 

Chris  6:37  
Different channels, different activities, actually have different carbon intensity, and that method will not work in the future. So if it's not understood, it can't be managed. So the only way to reduce emissions is to reduce the budget, which I'm sure no marketer would want to hear that, if we're going to reduce emissions, because we have this target, therefore we will spend less on marketing. So it's not a great position to be in where we currently sit. So while this first reasoned about future risk, it is often the current cost with a direct link to the bottom line. Companies with net zero targets in a number of jurisdictions are neutralizing emissions. This might be an internal policy or maybe legislated requirement. If these marketing emissions are unable to be understood with no pathway to reduction, this cost will only increase with time, as budgets increase, and the cost of compensation or offsets is rising steadily all the time, because more and more companies are looking for, let's call it an easy way out. So marketers are increasing long term liability cost beyond the simple line items of the budget. This will be addressed again by business decisions outside the marketing department, and it's a greater understanding and action is taken. And what CBC is doing is that first major step for an organization to help marketers and the corporate clients understand in detail and they will start reducing into the future. 

Alison  8:07  
Thanks, Chris, that's super helpful. So we have Canadian consumers who absolutely increasingly expect businesses and brands to be paying attention to sustainability and climate change. We have businesses that are stepping up as they should, to also protect climate change and the challenges that's being measured in that sounds like quite a simplistic way that ultimately could reduce marketers budget. So to have a more sophisticated way to measure it is in the best interest of marketers or budgets the business and ultimately, Canadian consumers as well. Mark, I know the CBC has a real commitment to responsible media and sustainability. I'd love you to walk us through your "Greening Our Story" strategy, and share how sustainable media initiative is fitting in the broader CBC commercial strategy.

Mark  8:58  
Yeah, absolutely, the sustainability portion and the "Greening Our Story" lives under a larger umbrella that we call Responsible Media. So CBC, as a Crown Corporation, has set a stake in the ground to lead from the front, as we say, in terms of responsible media. And that includes everything from the "Greening Our Story", which is the sustainability piece, to our DEI initiatives, to indigenous initiatives, all the different things that make CBC the gem that it is. But from a sustainability standpoint, there isn't currently a Canadian standard that speaks to the Scope 3 emissions, which are the ones sort of downstream effect of advertising. 

Mark  9:35  
So because there's not a Canadian standard in place, as part of "Greening Our Story", we already were doing emission reporting and sustainability work on the production end of things. So when CBC produces a show or is involved in production, there's a set of guidelines that oversee carbon emissions for that. But after that fact, once the shows are produced and once advertising comes into the picture, there hasn't been that carbon calculator or that attention paid to what that carbon draw is. So that's really why we've decided to partner with Net Zero Media. We decided to approach it from a very academic standpoint. 

Mark  10:08  
And again, the term that kept coming up over and over again in our steer codes was it was important to lead from the front. It was important to get out in front of this, to educate the marketers, to educate the industry about the effects of carbon in terms of what is produced from advertising. And get to that granular nature where we're actually looking at every step of the way, from when an ad is sent to CBC to go to air, through transmission, through to it appearing on a screen somewhere, at each stage, there is a carbon cost. So the idea of the carbon calculator was, we were going to work with Net Zero Media. They were going to do the heavy lifting and the math. We were going to be able to input clients' campaigns, and basically, with the click of a button, output what that carbon draw was, right? 

Mark  10:56  
And it's a bit of an abstract thinking, like, if you think of carbon emissions for a large corporation, you think of things like converting gas powered vehicles to electric, or putting solar panels up on the transmission stations. Like there are things that people think about, and they're like, Yeah, that's going to help with sustainability. But you don't really think about a display ad, for example, being transmitted through a number of different computers, through to a trafficking computer, through to a transmission and then lighting up on someone's cell phone, right? Each of those stages along the way is a little bit of carbon, a little bit of carbon, a little bit of carbon. 

Mark  11:31  
And when you add it all up, like you said, the advertising industry is the same as the aviation industry in terms of what its cost is, in terms of a total carbon draw. So Chris hit the nail on the head for marketers, you really can't make data-informed decisions about your business without having that level of granularity. It can't be a one-to-one spend base. It has to be based on activity. So the whole sustainability work that went into the carbon calculator was based on the idea that we need to have that level of granularity to provide our marketers with data and really that that's what it is. It's a data point which allows them to then make business decisions going forward.

Mark  12:08  
It wasn't something where we built this necessarily to be prescriptive, where we're going to advertisers and we're saying, Hey, we looked at your last five campaigns, you should really be buying more of this and less of this, or you should be using this channel or this channel. It's not for us to be prescriptive. It's really for us to educate them on what that carbon cost is, or that carbon draw is, by platform, by vertical, by campaign, and then we can have discussions, and they can have discussions internally about what they do with that data.

Alison  12:38  
It's such an important education. I've been on the agency side and also on the CMO side earlier in my career, and I had never had an appreciation for the potential positive and negative impact that our profession can have on greening the planet and on sustainability. So the fact that we actually rival the aviation industry is a mind blowing stat for me when I was doing some research.

Mark  13:01  
And Alison, that sort of abstract discussions we've had in the meetings we had with people who were working on the project with us, were trying to understand how, for example, a 60-second TV spot draws more carbon than a 30-second TV spot. And then you start to think about it, and you say, well, the screen is going to light up for twice as long, and when your TV is lit up for twice as long, it's drawing twice as much energy, and that energy has a cost associated to it, right? So it is an abstract thing to think that TV commercials are, you know, as damaging as a diesel engine or they're 1000 or 10,000 impressions on a web page is the same as planting a tree. Like there's literally carbon draws with everything you do when you start to look at it en masse, in terms of the billions of impressions that are served and the millions of TV ads, it really does add up.

Alison  13:45  
The good news is now we can actually track that and then put solutions in place. 

Mark  13:50  
Exactly. 

Alison  13:51  
So you're the first in Canada to do this. I know it's early days. Are you seeing it become a competitive differentiator with advertisers?

Mark  13:59  
Currently, it's not. Again, we're not at a stage where this has become something that we did, or we started to do, to make it a differentiator in our market, to say, hold up the flag and say, Look what CBC is doing. You should buy us instead of the other guys, because they're not doing it. That's not what the project was for. The project was to put a stake in the ground, to educate the industry, to, again, show that this is an important thing to look at and going forward, we want to share this with all of our other competitors and friends and CO vendors in the space and partners that we work with, and marketers to say this is something we should be looking at and providing this tool is the first step, because you really can't make changes without that data point. If you can't measure it, you can't have a downstream effect, right? 

Mark  14:43  
So, so it's early stages. It's an education. We're in the sort of rollout education stage with this, with the hope that other people then call us, whether through their agency, through their marketing partners, other people in the industry, and say, Hey, I like what you're doing with that carbon IQ, the carbon calculator. Is that something we could look at? And we're more than happy and willing to share all of our learnings. It's not something we're keeping close to the vest as CBC as a business differentiator. It's a decision we made because it was the right thing to do.

Alison  15:11  
That's great. Thank you for being open to sharing the learning, not just with our audience, but with ultimately, the broader marketing profession as well. 

Mark  15:18  
Yes, 100%.

Alison  15:19  
Now, Chris, I know CBC are the first Canadian broadcaster to adopt your carbon calculator. So can you share how your carbon IQ platform really complements CBC production-focused measurements when it comes to advertising spend and media planning?

Chris  15:32  
Yeah, I suppose the first thing, again, Mark's explained that very well, and it is a complicated thing to get your head around, that CBC have been doing for a number of years, great stuff on looking at the emissions from the production of the programs and also the whole corporate emissions. And that reporting has been ongoing, and it's excellent, but this this big part of the business that was actually selling space for corporates to buy that real estate and actually create those emissions. Now, were they CBC's responsibility? I would argue, not necessarily, that there would be no ads if no one bought them. 

Chris  16:13  
Therefore it's the advertisers responsibility, but they had no mechanism for actually giving that in a compliant manner, hence the engagement with us to actually build the carbon IQ so that they can do two things. One would be to understand where the emissions are going on all these 1000s of ad products that CBC have through TV and their digital platforms so they could understand it themselves. So there was some knowledge to actually start to improve. Is there anything we can do to make this a greener platform? And the second thing was, these companies who are buying these advertising space or this real estate that's actually sitting there, what are the emissions that they're responsible? What are their scope 3 emissions that actually CBC are generating on their behalf. How can we give those give that in a really simple manner? 

Chris  17:10  
Can we report that and give that across so they can use it in their reporting and improve the way they engage with CBC being the first, but with all companies. So that's much better than using the method they were actually using before. So we actually come on board, as Mark said, as an expert view on where emissions are occurring across order advertising products in all their channels. Therefore, CBC are the first broadcaster, not only really in Canada, but globally, some companies are saying they've done this, but they're not doing it with this rigour and transparency and, importantly, independence. 

Chris  17:46  
We are we are completely independent of the process. We don't buy advertising. We just create a platform with science- based methodology to enable this to actually be done. One of the most important things about what CBC are doing, there's a lot of people actually do report, but they're doing it in real time. So this is before anything occurs, therefore there's actually an opportunity to engage and actually do something about these emissions. I think that's one of the keys that will become clearer as this rolls out and the communication improves. It's before the advertising occurs, we can see what's about to occur and possibly do something about it, if that's what the customer wants to do.

Alison  18:29  
Thanks, Chris, that's a super helpful overview. So at this stage in the conversation, I have no doubt our listeners are intrigued, because there's business reasons to do this, there's consumer reasons to do this, and it's the right thing to do. So Mark, help us now understand the practical implementation. I know in our earlier conversation, you said there's no additional cost or time required for advertisers. So what does that actually look like in practice?

Mark  18:54  
Yeah, we've we've sort of engineered it from the beginning to be as low-touch for the marketers and advertisers as possible. Two areas of business that we, our advertising falls into, either direct, or, we'll call it direct, IO or programmatic. So on the programmatic side of things, we've done a lot of homework with a company called Scope 3 to do what's called supply path optimization. We've reduced the number of DSPs we deal with and the number of jumps that an ad needs to make before it gets to the digital space and programmatic. And in doing that, we've sort of reduced our overall emissions in terms of programmatic supply paths. So on that side, it's sort of no touch. And on the direct IO side, we would work with clients. It's as simple as them contacting us and saying, We've run a campaign with you. We'd like to look at what the carbon IQ tells us. 

Mark  19:37  
We take their booking sheet, their insertion order, as it's known in the industry. We plug that data into the carbon calculator. We get it, we generate a report that has all of their carbon output broken out by platform or by vertical so what was it in digital advertising? What was it in connected TV? What was it with linear television? Whatever they had bought from the CBC, it generates that report, and we would go and review that with them as a key output, either at quarterly business reviews at, you know, the reps would would handle a lot of that work and going back and forth, and again, we provide it sort of, I don't want to say open ended. 

Mark  20:11  
It has insights, but not prescriptive. So we would say this is what we've learned. Here are some comparisons. Just so you know, your last campaign that ran with us for the month of July had these five different components to it. It had some TV, it had some connected TV and streaming service, and it had some digital audio. The value, or the carbon equivalency, would have been 30 flights between Vancouver and Toronto. So if you wanted to compare that to something else that you're doing, where you're making cutbacks in other areas, this is what your media was worth. So really, it's giving them a value that they can then either campaign over campaign, or, like I said, usually through quarterly business reviews to say what has been our impact, and what could we be doing to change some of these, these outputs, right? 

Mark  20:54  
And then we have discussions with them, kind of about the levers behind the scenes, like things that affect that number are, for example, country to country, one of the effects on the numbers, where's the energy coming from? Is it solar? Is it wind? Is it hydroelectric? Is it nuclear? An advertiser can't control that lever, right? However, the breakouts that they have by vertical and the amount that they've spent can be reported on. Now that doesn't necessarily take into account the efficiency of each of the platforms. So TV, linear TV, for example, may be a much larger carbon draw than a streaming service might be. However, TV has given you a different reach than the streaming service has, and it's been used for a different purpose in your marketing mix. 

Mark  21:36  
So it's not just this carbon good, this carbon bad. There's no way of looking at it that way without building in the efficacy of each of those platforms and the efficiency and what you spent on it, and the efficiency and everything else, right? So in the marketing mix, that carbon draw is one piece of data that will help you, over time, to look at what you're doing, and then eventually, down the road, if you have an ESG or some sort of a carbon reduction strategy, you have the data points to work from, instead of just drawing it back to an overall marketing budget. 

Mark  22:07  
So if your company has said we've reduced airline travel for everyone by two flights a year, because we know this is what it costs us in terms of carbon offsets, let's say. Well now you can do the same with your marketing spend and say this was the carbon cost, not the dollar cost, but the carbon cost of running these campaigns. Where does that fit into our overall sustainability strategy? And again, by having that, we're hoping to lead people down that path of education to say it does have an impact. It is important. It's something you can look at.

Alison  22:38  
And to your point, it's so important. Anything we're doing around marketing is really about building brand and delivering business results. So it's mission critical that we really look at this as an important consideration and a trade off, without saying that we're going to replace the critical need to build business and contribute to Canada's economy. 

Mark  22:57  
100%. There's, there's no, there's no situation where it's like, you really don't want this carbon, don't buy the ads. You can't not buy the ads. It's more thinking about it differently to say, what is the effect of these and where does it fit into my larger marketing budget? 

Alison  23:10  
Now, given that this is quite new in Canada, I can only imagine some of like the shock value, as you and your team are sharing the carbon impact of the campaigns with different media teams and agencies and brands. How have they reacted? 

Mark  23:23  
Many agencies, or lots of the agencies that we talked to in building out what the carbon calculator needed to do, have their own either global sort of corporate emissions, like large multinationals already have some of these things built in, and our tool is looking specifically at the Canadian marketplace to draw some of those parallels. So one of our first projects is really to go out when we roll this out, and say to the agencies that already have potentially internal carbon calculators that they're using globally, and say, you give us your number, we'll look at our number. 

Mark  23:51  
Let's look at where it matches or it doesn't match, and build that standard. You know, you buy television against Numeris or you buy radio, you know, against all these different things that have been in the market a long time in terms of a currency, there is no actual measurement currency that's standardized for the Canadian media industry. So part of this work may be to help roll that out in conjunction with our agency partners. We haven't really rolled it out enough yet to have any shock factors that I can tell you about. You know, most agencies now have somebody that's responsible solely for sustainability and the clients as well. And we're looking forward to going up to the market with this and having this and having those discussions. 

Alison  24:08  
It's great to hear the progress that we're making from a Canadian perspective. Now it is still clearly in the nascent stages in Canada as well. So I'd love you both to share what you're seeing internationally as far as which markets or brands are really leading the way and what best practices are starting to emerge. 

Chris  24:40  
Having worked on this project for getting on for two years from start to finish, the language is talking about carbon, is talking about the challenges is there, and it's not the only thing we'll be looking at. And that's exactly where everyone needs to get to. Unfortunately, from me being a bit of a cynic here, there's a lot of brands making claims about how they're reducing emissions, but I can't see any evidence for these claims anywhere. They don't actually share that information, where it's going to be good that the work that's being done at the moment is going to be shared, which increases everyone's knowledge and hopefully gives them confidence to share this knowledge. 

Chris  25:21  
So I'll give you a couple of examples. I'll give you a couple in Australia, which I think has been doing some pretty good work. So for three years, we've been working with a leading superannuation fund manager, which is a pension fund. They've been able to achieve, for the last two years, reductions in their emissions because they've worked with their agency and said this is important to us. It's actually we want a carbon budget was as well as a financial budget. So although the actual budget and the marketing spend has gone up, the actual emissions have come down. The theory has changed slightly. The mix of the way they were buying their channels and sub channels to make this actually come down a bit. And there were some simple things they could do. 

Chris  26:05  
So that's that's a great success story, I think, and it's achieved, that's actually given that corporate lower reportable emissions, which is one of the things they want to do. And there's another one which is, and Mark did touch on this, the things that needs to be looked at when we start to include carbon. There's another financial corporation that we actually work with, and they've been able to demonstrate the importance of TV. Because people say, Oh, digital, we can do this stuff, and it's low emissions. But TV actually on the cost of carbon per 1000 views, clicks, whatever the metric is, was actually showing a lower amount of emissions, therefore they could again slightly change their buying patterns to give lower emissions, which again was not affecting the business outcome. 

Chris  26:50  
They were still selling their goods, services, whatever, in the same manner that they were trying to do, but they had a lower carbon actually response for that. None of that stuff could have happened unless they could see the detail that was actually going on from a carbon point of view, and again, I think importantly, from an independent point of view as well. We weren't involved in the buying or planning. We were just measuring what was occurring and making suggestions and giving that knowledge across to the parties who were buying and planning to make more informed decisions.

Mark  27:22  
I was actually earlier this week, on a call with the European sort of governing body of all the different broadcasters in Europe that got together under an umbrella organization called egta. And the the interesting thing is, I would say a lot of the European countries are maybe a year to a year and a half ahead of where Canada is in terms of doing some of this groundwork. Like TF1 in France, for example, we've looked at a lot of their research to help build out some of our strategies in terms of what we think is a good message to the market. Channel Four in the UK, for example, was doing a study similar to what Chris was just saying with Vodafone, one of the large wireless carriers in the UK that was looking at that carbon per impression. 

Mark  28:06  
So they were literally taking the dollar and working it back from a carbon number to say the whole number isn't really what you need to look at all the time. It's how much am I spending on it versus that number and attributing it down to a value. So they're actually doing some of that legwork now to try to show not all sort of media channels are equal, which we know in terms of our spend as marketers, and, you know, the money we spend, but also what is the impact. So it was interesting to say they were concerned that they were going to go out as Channel Four in the UK and say, This is what TV does, and that buyers would start to take TV off the buy because it was harming the environment more than their digital people were, right? 

Mark  28:43  
And that wasn't the actual case, because when you actually look at what you spend on TV and what you get in return, the carbon per impression or the carbon per impact was much less than it was for digital, or in the same ballpark. So it's really interesting work that's being done. We are, again, probably a year and a half to two years behind some of the things they're doing in Europe, but it's interesting. Doing this sort of work has got us a seat at the table, so to speak, to have conversations with those large players and a lot of information exchange as well. And the number one thing they said to us in terms of a challenge is actually educating the industry. That education piece is key, and  that's a large component of it.

Chris  29:21  
Mark's right.  The work CBC have been doing, we've been talking about a white paper, which will be published shortly. And everyone I've spoken to around Europe, all keen to actually get their hands on that, which is the roadmap, which would better be shared. They've, obviously, there's some good work being done there, but they're also keen on seeing this work that's being done because it is a big body of work, I would argue it's, it's one of the biggest projects that's actually been done from loads ago, and it's sitting in Canada, which is great.

Alison  29:57  
That's amazing to hear. I know not just our listeners, but the CMA membership will be very interested in that. So Mark, when it's ready to share, let me know. We'll be happy to broadcast that with our members as well. So you shared some of the challenges. Obviously, the benefits are very clear. Implementation always presents some challenges, the first challenge being education. So what other challenges are you seeing in the Canadian market? 

Mark  30:20  
I mean, the only thing, and I sort of alluded to it earlier, is that there's not a standard. If there was a standard currency that everybody was working towards, then you could take the calculator and extrapolate it out to all the different vendors and brands and say, This is what it's going to be. But as we're developing that standard, that's going to be a challenge. The other challenge we face in this moment, and you alluded to it off the top is when times are good and everybody's making lots of money and budgets are fat, people have time for ESG and sustainability. And as things tighten, tighten, tighten down, and people are worried about making their next quarter or their next annual look good, the pendulum can swing away from this to be frank, right? 

Mark  30:58  
So I don't think it's ever going away, but we're facing a time whereas people are worried about tariffs and, you know, cutbacks and other things like that, having to spend time and energy on sustainability is a challenge, but it's not a challenge that we sort of shy away from, or it's something we don't think we should push forward on. It's a long term play, and it may take us some time to get to see everybody we want to see and have those discussions, because other things have bubbled to the surface, let's say.

Alison  31:24  
And ultimately, the true goal standard would be if brands could see them for improved campaign performance alongside reducing that carbon footprint. And the only way that goal is to be able to understand it first and then measure it and see the impact it is having. Now I really appreciate the time you both have given today, I always end each episode by asking my guests to share a piece of career advice. 

Alison  31:46  
Given the sustainability imperative that we've talked about today, I'm going to switch it up a little bit for the two of you and ask what's your key recommendation for our listeners who are planning their 2026 strategies and want to take a step towards reducing advertising carbon footprint. 

Mark  32:04  
Yeah, in terms of advice, the one thing I would say is, once you go down the path of learning about this, it's not as daunting as it looks. The work that Chris did and his team, incredibly complex. The math behind it, science behind it, incredibly complex. But the readings that we did to bring ourselves up to speed on this opened up a whole new way of thinking about it, right? So if you're a marketer who this is on your radar at all, and your team is being asked about this at all, I would say, do the reading, just go online, find reputable sources, like anything. The education piece on this is farther behind other markets, so it presents a great opportunity for you to become the team's expert or the subject matter expert on this by doing the reading and listening to the podcast and diving into it. It is actually a really interesting area of science and a really interesting area of commerce, and where those two intersect.

Alison  32:51  
Thanks, Mark. And would it be, would it be safe to offer up that they can reach out to you for anyone that's interested in learning more?

Mark  32:58  
100%. I won't be the resource, but I'll have the links to send them for the resources. I'm going to throw it out there just as a side plug is, there's a podcast and a web page or a substack called People versus Algorithms. The gentlemen on there, there's three guys who have been in the industry for years and years, who have the most fascinating conversations about everything around sustainability, all the way through AI, all the way through to media. People versus Algorithms, I'll give it a plug. I don't work with these people or anything, but when I started diving into it, everything I read on there was just absolutely fascinating.

Alison  33:29  
I listen to podcasts on my morning runs, so that's going to be joining me on my morning run tomorrow.

Mark  33:33  
People versus Algorithms. There you go. 

Alison  33:35  
And Chris, what advice would you share?

Chris  33:36  
I would introduce carbon intensity into the valuation or planning process of buying media. And it needs to be weighted, but that can be low to start with, it's not going to actually sway the decision making process. It should just be set in, say, 2% move it to 5% of the against current metrics, and it could increase over time as your confidence grows, as you get more information around this, it will become clearer that it doesn't actually affect business, because I think that's one of the things, or low carbon business, it doesn't. So therefore, start doing it, start understanding it. And I strongly believe it should be independent the buying process. The only place where this accurate and compliant measurement can take place is with media owners like CBC and the other media owners, because they have all the necessary data points to calculate the emissions correctly.

Alison  34:29  
So a huge thank you, Mark and Chris, for joining us today. Chris, especially joining us all the way from Australia,  I know the time change was a little challenging to manage around, but a really important conversation and a really insightful conversation. So a huge thank you to you both.

Mark  34:43  
My pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Chris  34:45  
Thank you.

Presenter  34:51  
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account, it's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

What if 84% of small businesses needed your platform to survive? Joshua Bloom, GM, Head of US Enterprise Sales and Canada at TikTok, has been working in social media expansion in Canada for over 26 years. His journey led him to become the first employee at MySpace, Facebook, and TikTok Canada. Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, explores Joshua's journey from Wall Street to social media pioneer, why some platforms thrive while others fail, and how he's leading through unprecedented regulatory uncertainty.

Presenter  0:01  
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

Alison  0:20  
In today's episode, we're exploring the fascinating intersection of digital innovation, economic impact and entrepreneurial resilience with someone who has an absolutely extraordinary track record of being first. So I'm super excited to welcome Joshua Bloom. He has served as the GM of global business solutions for TikTok Canada, and remarkably, has also been the first employee of not one but three major social platforms in Canada, going as far back as MySpace, then Facebook and TikTok. Josh's exceptional leadership was just recognized with a promotion and North American role. So he is now the GM Head of U.S. Enterprise Sales, as well as maintaining Canada at TikTok. Josh's career journey is anything but traditional. From Wall Street to becoming a key architect of social media expansion in Canada over the past 26 years. Since joining on as an instrumental team member in starting TikTok Canada in 2019, he's witnessed the platform grow from a startup operation to an economic powerhouse. Through the combined total of its operations and SMB activities on the platform, TikTok has contributed 2.3 billion to Canada's GDP in 2024 alone. They also support over 613,000 small businesses, 84% of which now consider the platform essential to their survival. This conversation comes at an absolutely critical juncture. With economic uncertainty, we are all managing through dramatic change. With recent regulatory challenges forcing TikTok Canada to pause major cultural investments and face an uncertain future, t hat reality is even more true for Josh and his experience can provide super valuable learning for all of us. So whether you're curious about building social platforms from the ground up, the economic impact of TikTok on Canadian businesses, or how leaders navigate extreme uncertainty, today's conversation promises insights that you won't find anywhere else. So welcome Josh and congratulations on your new role. 

Joshua  2:21  
Thank you so much, Alison, it's great to talk with you again. 

Alison  2:24  
Now, Josh, you have this incredibly unique distinction of being employee number one for three major social platforms in Canada. That's a 26 year front row seat to the evolution of social media here, and I'd love you to take us back to the transition from Wall Street to digital, including what was the pivotal moment that convinced you to pursue a career in marketing? 

Joshua  2:45  
It's funny, I graduated university in 1995, not to age myself, but I graduated a finance degree, and I've always had this vision of working on Wall Street. And so about the end of 1998, after having worked  in finance about three years. My cousin Lee Nadler, called a digital pioneer, he was a number 17 employee at DoubleClick. And DoubleClick was first ad serving technology. And DoubleClick also created the very first ad network. So back in the mid to late 90s, they used to represent all the big websites, including Alta Vista, if you remember that search engine before, before Google, sort of like had its, you know, its reign. So he introduced me to the company, and used to tell me stories about how digital was going to be the big thing in advertising. I was not a fan of computers. Still to this day, I'm not great at them, but he mentioned that they were opening up this media team and that I should come and check it out. He finally convinced me, and it was sort of a match made in heaven. And, you know, ended up spending three fantastic years at DoubleClick to which, one, I really learned internet and the potential of the internet, and two, I was really able to understand what working in a really positive culture looked like. DoubleClick, I think was one of the early great digital cultures, and I think that helped me to sort of create sort of what I wanted to see when I led teams later on down the road.

Alison  4:14  
Well, a huge thank you on behalf of Canadian marketers for your cousin giving you that push, because clearly we have benefited. And I also like the cultural learning. So being an early adopter to digital and social media is great, but the learning you took on the importance of a culture, regardless of what sector or industry you're in, the culture can be such a competitive advantage, and that's clearly something that you've lived and brought to life in your different roles in Canada,

Joshua  4:38  
Absolutely, it was such an empowering and engaging culture. The fantastic leaders that really were people leaders, and it gave everyone an opportunity to to be successful and to be the best versions of themselves. And it was funny because back in that, in that period of time, we were selling digital against all other forms of media. We would literally have packets of 50 to 100 pieces of paper stacked on top of each other with leads that we would call one at a time, and basically try to sell digital media against the other traditional media formats that they were using. It was a really wild time.

Alison  5:18  
Now, you were brave to take a leap early in your careers, but you've also built a number of platforms from scratch in the Canadian market. So walk us through what it's like and the approach that you took for building something from scratch. 

Joshua  5:31  
It's really interesting. So, you know, that started with, you know, my being the first employee in Canada for MySpace. What caught my eye is that, you know, MySpace was a platform that not only was I using, but I was such a fan of music, and I used the platform basically to connect with bands that I adored. And came to a realization very quickly that it really was an amazing platform to discover new music. And when I think about the steps that I took myself in terms of that first platform that I worked with, and then to Facebook, and then to TikTok, it really started with sort of building a vision and then inspiring a narrative that really turned heads. 

Joshua  6:11  
So when you think about MySpace like it was revolutionary, and you know, combined massive scale with unprecedented self expression, allowing brands like tap into like these rich audience data and target consumers through the culture that they were actively creating. It gave your advertisers an opportunity to like tap, you know, right into that, you know, sort of evolving culture that was, that was being created on the internet. You know, then Facebook was sort of captivating advertisers, you know, for uniting like what was real identity with social connectivity and then enabling very precise targeting at scale. You know, Facebook bought Instagram, and you know that totally transformed advertising by merging, like the visual storytelling with aspirational lifestyle. And yeah, that gave brands a seamless way to inspire and influence and connect.

Joshua  6:59  
And now you fast forward to today with TikTok, which has social components to it, but it's really, you know, entertainment-based. It's really just a playground for, like, infinite discovery and driving culture and allowing brands not to just participate, but to actually help to shape culture. And if you do it right, you know, brands have an opportunity to drive, not only the most important business KPIs, but really disrupt the way that we are perceiving marketing today. Second to that, I  would probably just say that, like hiring the right folks early, because, like, they're going to set the tone and who you are as an organization in the market, and you need to make sure that the conversations that they're having within the market are ones that are going to sort of ease that barrier entry for testing, so that when that first dollar is spent, it's done in a way that is meaningful, they're learning something, and they're able to then move up from sort of that experiences. 

Joshua  7:53  
A lot of times, I think you have, you have these sort of call it, shiny objects in markets, and marketers always have testing dollars, but if you don't really get anything out of that test, they flop. And that's why you really only see, like, a handful of platforms that are really are getting, you know, significant dollars and having, like, meaningful partnerships with brands today.

Alison  8:16  
It's great advice, and with the three platforms that you've built in Canada, you've been on the ground floor, but you've also seen some that have gone into phenomenal success and some that failed. So MySpace certainly dominated early but ultimately lost market share. Facebook's become a global giant, and Tiktok has been exploding in recent years. So it's great learning and from a strategic perspective, what were the key differentiators between the platforms succeeding longer term, versus those that didn't.

Joshua  8:43  
I think MySpace had a really hard time defining itself. If you if you put MySpace and Facebook next to each other, we'll see that MySpace is very much like a, was very much like a social portal, very similar to like a Yahoo, where it was very content-based. You had MySpace Music and MySpace Sports and MySpace News, and there really wasn't much of a focal point, even though music really was its centre. MySpace lost its way, and a lot of that could have also done with the fact that, you know, Rupert Murdoch and News Corp bought, bought the company, and really made it just like a, yeah, a money-making machine, where you then look at Facebook. 

Joshua  9:23  
And when I joined Facebook, it was a fraction of the size of MySpace. People were telling me it was career suicide at that time. But you could see the difference in the platforms, where, in that Facebook was more of a social utility. It was more, much more similar to Google, you know, where, basically the the news feed that was created really was the bread and butter of Facebook became sort of this, this news source, this personalized newspaper for individuals, where that content was the things that were happening with all the people and entities that they care, they care most about. And Facebook stuck to that you n ever saw Facebook try to build content and be competitive with MySpace. They just got better and better and better at creating a more impactful and a more empowering social utility.

Alison  10:11  
Now I want to pivot to the small business community in Canada. Clearly, being a small business in Canada has been really hard work for the last five years. We've had that pandemic, now we have tariffs, we've had a challenging economy, and small businesses are in many ways, are the cornerstone of Canada's economy. Now I know that Nordicity recently completed an economic impact study that Tiktok Canada commissioned that was really illuminating, and before we dive into the specific numbers, I really think it's important to contextualize these findings within the broader reality that's facing Canadian SMEs. 

Alison  10:50  
So we've seen the business closure rate increase by almost 5% in 2024, 65% of Canadian SMEs are still managing pandemic related debt to average over $100,000 and now they're dealing with the tariff uncertainty and what experts are calling the silver tsunami, where nearly two thirds of Canadian businesses lack succession planning as their baby boomer owners are nearing retirement. So against this backdrop, how do you interpret TikTok's role as an economic lifeline?

Joshua  11:21  
The finding that you mentioned before about about 84% of small businesses that consider TikTok essential to their survival is such a profound statement, but also something that has become very real to us because, you know, it's a it's both a testament to the platform's transformative power and it's almost like a clarion call to our responsibility now as a tech company. In this level of dependency, underscores how deeply integrated Tiktok has become in this entrepreneurial ecosystem, especially for small businesses that often lack these extensive resources of large corporations and have also had to deal with things like the pandemic, which I think really shocked like, you know, the entire ecosystem. 

Joshua  12:03  
This dependency really indicates that, like, that we're not just a platform for entertainment, but we're a vital lifeline for innovation, creativity, economic resilience. I guess it creates this sort of dual responsibility that we have. So I think there's like, there's, there's empowerment support, where I think we just, we have to continue to build and enhance our tools, you know, with features that are going to help small businesses thrive and providing educational resources, access to analytics, promotional opportunities that cater to specifically to their needs. And I think by offering, you know, guidance on best practices, we can really help these businesses to leverage, you know, this unique storytelling capability that we have to help them to, you know, really build authentic connections with their audiences. 

Joshua  12:05  
I think the second one would be community, and this, this notion of inclusivity, we really do have a responsibility to to foster supportive community where diverse voices can be heard and supported, and this means actively working towards reducing barriers to entry, probably offering financial resources or partnerships that can aid in the visibility of these underrepresented businesses and communities, and promoting initiatives that really celebrate cultural diversity. You see that in a lot of the work it is you know, that we've done, and some of the ones that we've had to unfortunately shut down in the near term, that hopefully we'll be able to bring back up once we can overcome this, this shutdown hurdle. 

Joshua  13:24  
But really, you know, it's, it's, it's our role to, like, not just like, facilitate growth, but it's got to be something that's sustainable long term, you know, for these, these small businesses.  I think it's important that we, you know, we're listening to their needs. You know, we're adapting. We're creating an environment where, where they can, they can thrive. We're, really, are, you know, sort of these, these partners to their journey, and hopefully, you know, a platform that creates economic viability for these businesses. And really, what we're seeing is an ever-evolving, you know, digital world. 

Alison  13:53  
I know you and your team have done a lot of different initiatives. Is there one that you're particularly proud of, or that the results really surprised you?

Joshua  13:53  
So yes, one of the ones that I find most interesting is a company called Edison motors out in BC. Chase Barber, who is the CEO of the company, he's a, he's a trucker, a logger, and he, through TikTok, built basically a hybrid diesel engine, electric and diesel engine. This is something that's never been done before, and something you know that he built from scratch and patented, but used TikTok and its community as a sounding board, and then as he understood the capabilities of this engine and what it could provide, terms of power and efficiencies, you know, for for trucks, he began to basically build his first truck, and got all of his suppliers, also through his relationships in the TikTok community. 

Joshua  14:49  
You fast forward to today, that company has now been valued at over $200 million, and the use of that hybrid engine, there, there are so many different cases. And this is something that's being built out of Canada. So not only am I proud in sort of that patriotic piece of like something that's completely new, never been done before, and has so many different applications, but to see the platform play such an integral role in helping not only the development of the product itself, but actually to build the infrastructure for for the business, and hopefully help them to continue to thrive.

Alison  15:24  
That's an amazing story. Way to go Chase, too. And to see how the community played a mission critical role in the business that he's now built. I can't wait to see where Edison goes next. Now let's turn to TikTok's economic impact study. It shows some remarkable numbers that you and I have both highlighted. One that jumps out to me is 613,000 small Canadian businesses using the platform. And I'd love to hear what from this economic impact study really surprised you about the findings?

Joshua  15:54  
Well, I mean, we keep talking about this, the fact that 613,000 small businesses were using the platform last year. You know, when I started at the company six years ago, we were maybe a couple of million individuals using the platform in Canada, and to see how far it's come in that short window of time, it really does blow my mind that not only are they on our platform, but to say that we are essential to their survival, is to say it's a really bold statement. 

Joshua  16:23  
This isn't, hey, we're a great part of their marketing mix, or hey, like, we're an engaging platform, or drive, you know, some of their their needed business KPIs, but that, like, if we didn't exist, they wouldn't be around. Just tells a lot about how important it is to not only have this platform, but for us to be here. And, you know, to see how the business has grown from from zero now to, you know, $1.4 billion that you know, the TikTok office has created, paying all of our taxes, you know, and being good corporate citizens, and the community work, and the millions of dollars of investment that we've brought back into the community, and all these things, you know, are, some of them surprising, but some of them I'm incredibly proud of, and really is the reason why I'm so passionate about keeping this story going,

Alison  17:14  
That really is an incredibly high dependency rate and creates quite a bit of responsibility for the platform as well. So building on that, what responsibility does it create for TikTok as a platform, when these businesses are so reliant on you for their economic visibility and viability as well as their long term success? 

Joshua  17:32  
Yeah, no. I mean, as I mentioned earlier, there's that sort of empowerment and support piece, you know, where there's the tools and the features and analytics that we need to continuously provide to show that the efforts that they're making, whether they are in an organic nature or in a paid nature, that they truly understand the power of the platform and where they can scale and be able to build business. 

Joshua  17:56  
And then the second piece is really making sure that we are, we're supporting them, is that community and inclusivity fashion, that they really are becoming a part of something bigger than themselves, that we drive visibility around those underrepresented businesses, that those you know, culturally diverse businesses are being seen. We've done a number of different projects, you know, where we've done in real life, you know, type of activations where, you know, we've brought small businesses, created these these markets so that we can introduce, you know, their products and offerings, you know, to the world. 

Joshua  18:35  
That maybe gives them that small example of what it might mean to actually open up a brick and mortar store for themselves. I just think at the end of the day, it's just, it's just really important that we just stay on top of these, tools, these best practices, these analytics, and we make it super easy for for them to digest and for them to use and reuse, but also be able to give us input and feedback as to what's working what's not, and how we can continue to better ourselves.

Alison  19:05  
I remember your Christmas pop up last year where you celebrated and gave a number of TikTok SMEs the opportunity to be in person selling their products. And I went and had a great experience, and ended up being introduced to new brands, and they became a big part of my holiday shopping. So to see how you are bringing it off the platform and really positively impacting Canadian businesses, a huge credit to you and your team.

Joshua  19:31  
Well, thank you, and I hope we can continue to do that, and not just in major markets like Toronto, but build opportunities and these showcases all around the country, you know, so that we can make sure that there are, there are these small businesses, you know, they have the opportunity to be exposed and discovered as well, not just like in major markets. 

Alison  19:51  
I also remember Erin on your team sharing when we were at the pop up that this was a test market for the concept that Canada came up with the idea, was leading it, and then with the success, with being rolled out in other countries. And I'm always as a very proud Canadian, thrilled when we are able to take our great ideas, prove them in Canada, and then have them rolled out internationally. Another big accomplishment that makes all the marketers in Canada proud. So most businesses and marketers today are navigating through uncertainty, whether it's the economy, tariffs, just the unknown. You are navigating significant uncertainty. So from a leadership perspective, how are you maintaining team morale and business continuity as you manage for the regulatory challenges?

Joshua  20:36  
I can tell you, it's not easy. I think it really comes from, one from the resilience that I've built up from working at so many other organizations, and especially Facebook. Facebook went through a number of different challenges, you know, big public challenges that the company had to face, and you had to build a strong backbone. I've always realized that it's really just about focusing on the things that you can control. And so what I've always promised to my team is transparency, and you know, the fact that I will do as much as I possibly can to protect them from as much noise as possible. And that all I can ask of them is to just really focus on what they can control and to continue the conversations and the relationships you know that they're that they're building in market. 

Joshua  21:21  
We also try to as a team, we try to celebrate each other as much as we possibly can in making sure that, you know, we we identify all the great wins that we cheer each other on. It's very much a family dynamic is, I think, what's been created here at TikTok. And I think that dynamic in itself builds a resilience as well. It, you know, creates almost like a bubble. So that you know, when you do get hit by some of these negative news cycles, you know, or someone senior in the in the company left, or some big issues happen, you know, within the organization, sort of become a little bit more resilient to it. And, you know, not that it doesn't, it doesn't affect folks, but I think it bounces off a little easier than typically if you have an environment where, you know, like, people are just not working all that closely together, it's not much of a as much of a group dynamic. 

Joshua  22:07  
And you know, everyone's sort of an individual contributor looking after themselves. So it really is just sort of that, that focus of control. And if you can be consistent with that, and make sure that people know that, you know, you are, you are optimistic about, you know, the future of the organization, and that you are continuous in your communications about updates of things that are happening. I think people feel a lot more comfortable, and that is that has really helped us to sort of continue to keep this business going. And mind you, like I said, it hasn't been easy. We've lost a lot of folks, and understandably so, because there's just always going to be that inherent fear that suddenly, you know, tomorrow, the Canadian government is going to shut our offices down. I don't see that particularly happening, but you know, that's a fear that people, that people have.

Alison  22:59  
Great advice,, the transparency, the authenticity, the reality is, we never have all of the answers in any role we're in, you're in a position where you can't possibly have some pretty important answers. So being open and honest about that and transparent is the only way through it. Have you learned any lessons the hard way? Because again, none of us are perfect. If you had a do over, is there anything it would change about your approach. 

Joshua  23:21  
What I will say is this is great leaders. I think fight for their teams. But sometimes you have to represent the company. There are things that you may not necessarily agree with or like in terms of actions that companies are going to take, or changes to the way the company is doing business, or how employees are being taken care of. Sometimes you fight, and sometimes you just have to deliver that message. And it's hard, it's hard as a leader to do that. And I think mistakes that I have made in the past is sometimes I have fought too hard for the team, where there were just some instances where I just didn't really need to, and, you know, I probably pushed too hard, and rather than sort of taking a step back and really looking at the big picture and be like, is this, you know, is this the sort of the hill I want to, I want to stand on, you know, or die on. So I've had a really big learning just about finding that balance between representing your team and representing the company.

Alison  24:19  
That makes a ton of sense, and thanks for your candour. That's very great self awareness, and it also reinforces what we talked about earlier. We are always, regardless of any level we're at in our career, we're always learning, we're always making mistakes, we're always finding ways to improve. So thank you. Now you've positioned TikTok as moving beyond traditional social media to more of an entertainment platform and really a discovery destination with the launch of the new insight tools for brands, expansion into some strategic business intelligence. Can you share how this evolution is changing the conversation that you're having with Canadian marketers and agencies?

Joshua  24:54  
I think in these six years, the platform has matured significantly. Not only do we have a scaled platform, but we have so many tools and analytics now and proven results that I think it sort of breaks itself down into we'll call it three and a half, sort of like four opportunities that are really driving the future of the business. The first one is, is if we just think about video, and just how important video has become with marketing, and specifically on TikTok, when you have the For You feed, you know, which is sort of this serendipitous experience of infinite discovery, and the amount of attention that people pay in that feed is more so than anywhere else. I mean, people spend, you know, a movie's worth the time on our platform every single day. 

Joshua  25:46  
It's really not just a first screen. It's the only screen. If you use a platform like, you know, like when you're on TikTok, you can't do anything else. You can't watch TV, you can't type, you can't do like, you just, literally, you're just, like, so absorbed, you know, in the content. And we've built, as I mentioned, enough tools now and proven analytics that we can drive, you know, KPIs, you know, everywhere through the funnel, whether it's everything from just brand activity to, you know, conversion and loyalty. 

Joshua  26:17  
The second one is, is really sort of the next place where people spend a lot of time on a platform, and that is in Search. As a brand, you want to be present when people are proactively looking for you or something similar to you. And so our platform has become one of the biggest search platforms now, you know, on the on the planet, and anything that you could possibly want to learn or create, you know, you just type that into into our search box, and you will get so many results and be able to deep dive into the these communities of of content around any subject matter you could possibly imagine. 

Joshua  26:54  
It's become this incredible global educational tool. And so, as an advertiser, you want to think about what your approach should be around search on TikTok. And as a marketer, if you can go back to 2000, would you think differently about how you approached Google when it comes to search engine optimization and search engine marketing? So you have this mix of organic and paid media that can complement one another. And the reality is, is that the more content that you produce for TikTok, you know, around your brand, you know, the more that you're going to show up, you know, through the algorithm when people are looking at search terms. 

Joshua  27:28  
And so I think people are just starting to realize that, and there is an opportunity for for brands to really own search on our platform, if they really start creating, you know, the right content that will fit well within that specific behaviour. The third one is, you know, we talked about this a little bit, is sort of our commercial partnerships, and really extending TikTok off of mobile and all the opportunities, and, you know, the 2 billion plus screens in real life experiences, partnerships that we can do, you know, building, you know, different medias together to triangulate around a specific message is really starting to reshape the way that we think about marketing. TikTok has an amazing capability of being a remarkable distribution partner for so many different platforms, you know, as well as for brands to bring visibility and engagement, you know, to whatever the idea or activation is. 

Joshua  28:20  
Because you know, as you know, as you know, in our platform, our algorithm is very different than what you have with Facebook and with Instagram. It's not built off social graph. It's built off content graph. So rather than, you know, seeing content from the people or entities that you care most about, with TikTok, we celebrate great content. So a great piece of content is going to move far within, you know, within our algorithm, to where you can literally go from zero to hero overnight. Zero followers, zero content, you know, to hundreds of 1000s of followers and millions of engagements. And that can have substantial impact, you know, on everything from musicians, small businesses, entrepreneurs, I could go on million different tangents of like, different categories that this can that this can support. And so I really think we have a unique ability to really change a lot of these, these marketing dynamics that we currently play in. 

Joshua  29:14  
And then the fourth one, which is really interesting is Insights. We've started to build some tools now that are allowing brands to really understand how their brand is being talked about or exposed on our platform through user generated content. We have a platform called Content Suite that allows a brand to go in and basically see all the posts that are being created with their brand around it, whether their brand is being talked about, whether their brand is being worn on a shirt in the background. If their brand or logo is present, that will show up. And then you'll be able to see all the keywords that are represented around your particular brand, so you can see what context people are talking about, and then obviously, the demographics, the timeframe, etc. And what you can do is you can look at some of the most popular posts that are being created by these users, request you know their their approval, and be able to put media behind those posts and let them represent your voice. 

Joshua  30:11  
And this creates a really unique opportunity for brands to be able to allow creators to represent their brands, in a really cool, authentic and fun way, without them having to sort of push, you know, their their agenda as a brand themselves. And what I find really interesting is that as they do that you can start to look at whether or not, you know, call the chatter, or whether the amount of engagement that's happening on the platform around your brand is changing, or even when you run a paid a paid marketing campaign around a specific product or service or master brand campaign, you can actually see over time whether or not it's actually impacting the way people are talking about your brand, or the amount of conversation that's happening around your brand organically in the platform. That's super interesting stuff. And then the other one you know that we that we have is is really about being able to create clusters of people around your brand, and in what sort of stage of the relationship they are with you. Like, are these people? Basically, they just, like, understand your brand, and you want to show them media that kind of helps them to, you know, sort of consider, you know, you as as a brand that they might use, and you kind of get them further down the funnel, or, you know, a cluster of people that are actually considering your brand, or a cluster of people that are already customers of your brands, you know, or they're loyalists. And so when you think about how you communicate to those individual clusters, there's, they're very different in terms of what you're going to actually say to them and and what you're trying to accomplish and in those communications. And so we have the ability for brands to not only see that information, but be able to build those clusters and then put paid media behind it and see the results of those actions. 

Joshua  31:52  
So really interesting, interesting stuff, and we take a step back, you go, okay, TikTok, you know, not so long ago, you know, you were basically musically, you're young teenagers, you know, dancing and lip syncing to, you know, today, you know where, you know, not only have you become this, you know culture of a sort of discovery platform, you know, globally, with over a billion users, but you know you are now being able to drive real business impact in a way that you know, other platforms just just haven't been able to yet, with an opportunity to go so much further and extend the way that, again, that we think about marketing as a whole.

Alison  32:28  
Great examples, Josh, thank you very much. Now you've been super generous with your time. I really appreciate it. And I have one more question before I let you go. Now you have built three major social platforms from the ground up. You've navigated the digital marketing landscape for almost three decades. What is one piece of career advice that you would give our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps?

Joshua  32:50  
I talked about pivoting already, and, you know, I think that's really important to know, to know when you're wrong, and being able to pivot. And again, like even just in my career, going from finance to digital. It just, it felt right. And that kind of goes along with this idea of trusting your gut. You're not going to always be right, but it's, but it's like, you know, your spidey senses are telling you should be doing something, give it a go. You know, it kind of goes along these lines of this new opportunity for my expansion of my purview, with now being able to be also GM and Head of the U.S. Enterprise Sales Team, along with Canada. Originally, you know, I wasn't necessarily interested in the opportunity, but the more that I thought about it, and I realized, like, you know, this is a way for me, obviously, you know, expose myself further, take some of the learnings that I've gotten from from Canada, and bring it to a bigger market. It's not so often that a Canadian leader has an opportunity to move into the U.S. and have this size of business to manage. And so yeah, when you when your gut tells you like this is the right move, just kind of, you got to, you got to take a chance and be willing to to make those, those necessary pivots. 

Joshua  33:57  
When I moved from MySpace to Facebook, again, Facebook was maybe one quarter the size of MySpace, and people told me it was career suicide. To me, it just felt like the right move. I could see the amount of energy and engagement that was happening on Facebook and how it was growing super fast at least in Toronto, comparatively to MySpace, where everything just looked like it was slowing down and people were just less engaged. Because it just wasn't that authenticity, that TikTok has a communication utility. 

Joshua  34:26  
To where I've gone to TikTok now it's like, okay, this isn't just another social media platform, like, this is a entertainment platform, and that opens the doors to so many other opportunities and conversations that I'm going to be able to have, not just with brands, but with musicians and labels and sports figures and other areas of interest that can all be facilitated on this platform where we can drive meaningful impact, let alone the community nature of the platform, and where that has gone to in terms of where we've been able to drive that success. So your gut tells you, like, it feels like the right thing to do? A lot of times it is. And you know, just realize it quickly, if it wasn't the right decision, you have to pivot. So trust your gut and then pivot when necessary.

Alison  35:14  
Absolutely outstanding advice. The other word that I would add that is linked to that is bravery. Like there's bravery and trusting your gut in making the decisions, especially when people are telling you that it's career suicide. So you're giving credit to yourself for knowing what's right for you, and sort of blocking out the naysayers who really don't have that inside view on what is right for you.

Joshua  35:36  
We used to have a sign in Facebook. We had all these mantras all over the offices around the world, and Facebook and one of them was, what would you do if you weren't afraid?

Alison  35:44  
Thanks so much, Josh and again, huge congratulations on your new role. Very excited for you.

Joshua  35:49  
Thank you. This has been a lot of fun.

Presenter  35:57  
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account, it's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends. 

What's your organization doing to help Canadian businesses grow? In a country where 1.2 million small businesses are struggling to remain competitive, and only 12% are using AI technology, the You.Scaled partnership has created a solution. Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, interviews Karla Congson, CEO and Founder of Agentiiv, to explore how this AI accelerator program evolved into a comprehensive partnership between CMA, Agentiiv, Staples, RBC Ownr, and CCNDR - awarding 500 grants to help SMEs and nonprofits harness AI to compete globally.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:15
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:16 - 00:00:51:09
Alison
In today's episode, we explore an exciting new program that the CMA is very proud to be a part of. The program provides much needed support to Canadian Small businesses and not-for-profits. The new you.scaled program, which just launched as part of SME Month in Canada, is an ambitious $5 million AI accelerator program that demonstrates what's possible when organizations unite around a shared vision of empowering our small businesses and not-for-profit communities.

00:00:51:11 - 00:01:17:14
Alison
I'm very excited to welcome Karla Congson, the founder and CEO of agentiiv and the visionary who brought the initial idea of you.scaled to the CMA. What makes this story truly remarkable isn't just a really innovative idea. It's also how that idea has been transformed into a national program for the collective strength of strategic partnerships. The program you'll hear about today wouldn't exist without the unique contributions each partner brings to the table.

00:01:17:16 - 00:01:43:12
Alison
The CMA is proud to provide the educational foundation through our generative AI training courses, along with significant AI thought leadership and resources, and membership benefits that will help businesses implement these tools effectively. Ownr brings essential business setup and legal expertise. Staples is contributing their extensive reach and business services network and CCNDR are ensuring that we're addressing the nonprofit sector with the same commitment we bring to SMEs.

00:01:43:14 - 00:02:15:03
Alison
This partnership matters because the challenge we're addressing is massive. Despite a transformative potential, only 12.2% of Canadian businesses are currently using AI technology, while 73% of SMEs haven't even considered implementing it. Meanwhile, our 1.2 million small businesses, which employ almost 62% of Canada's private workforce and contribute 38% of our private sector GDP, are facing unprecedented pressures to modernize, just to remain competitive.

00:02:15:05 - 00:02:50:04
Alison
Karla brings over two decades of experience as a marketing executive and business leader before pivoting into entrepreneurship and hands on AI development. Today's conversation is about much needed support for Canadian SMEs and NFPs. It's also about collective impact and how strategic partnerships can amplify individual innovation to create solutions that no single organization could deliver alone. So whether you're a Canadian small business or not-for-profit looking for ways to leverage AI so you can become even more competitive and deliver business results, or curious about how collaborative programs can help drive economic development,

00:02:50:06 - 00:03:00:13
Alison
today's conversation will offer insights into partnership driven innovation that can help reshape how we think about supporting Canadian businesses. Welcome, Karla. It's wonderful to have you here today.

00:03:00:15 - 00:03:03:12
Karla
Thanks so much, Alison. It's a privilege to be here.

00:03:03:14 - 00:03:23:04
Alison
Now, I want to start with the idea and why it's needed so much. So we know that SMEs are the cornerstone of Canada's economy, and there's no doubt that they've had quite a challenging number of years, everything from the pandemic, challenging economic times and now political uncertainty and tariffs. So to say that they're in need of support is an understatement.

00:03:23:06 - 00:03:34:05
Alison
And I know that's a passion for both of us in our organizations. So with that as the backdrop, I'd love you to share more about our newly launched Youth Scale program and how it benefits SMEs.

00:03:34:07 - 00:03:55:09
Karla
You're absolutely right, Alison, about SMEs facing unprecedented challenges. I've watched friends and colleagues and these incredible businesses, the backbone of our economy, get hammered by everything from supply chain disruptions to labour shortages. And now so many people come to me and they're telling me that they're watching AI transform their bigger competitors, while they're feeling like it's out of reach.

00:03:55:11 - 00:04:12:20
Karla
And the other part of this too, which I can fully relate to as a small business ourselves, is that a small business owner's most valuable commodity is time. We never have enough of it. And not enough time to get on top of AI trends, choose the right tools, invest in training. And that's where you.scaled and its partners come in.

00:04:12:22 - 00:04:41:09
Karla
What makes you.scaled unique is the comprehensiveness of the program. Most AI initiatives focus on single solutions, but we envision addressing the entire business ecosystem that small companies need in order to scale. Agentiiv was the catalyst that got the program going, and it all began with an idea and a desire to really make a difference. We're giving away $4 million of market value of our own services to provide an enterprise grade AI platform with 100 specialized agents.

00:04:41:11 - 00:05:16:15
Karla
And the CMA plays such a critical role in this by providing AI training, marketing education, distribution, robust thought leadership, and membership benefits. RBC Ownr handles all the business set up, the legal support and financial services. Staples provides operational backbone with business services, and CCNDR ensures nonprofit participants get specialized support. So when a small manufacturer in Saskatoon can suddenly compete with enterprise level efficiency, or a nonprofit in Nova Scotia can augment their donor communications to focus on mission critical work,

00:05:16:20 - 00:05:22:18
Karla
W e're collectively building a Canada where small businesses can compete on a world stage.

00:05:22:20 - 00:05:41:22
Alison
Building on that, when you first envisioned the you.scaled program at agentiiv, you realized that it could become something much bigger through partnership. So I'd love you to walk us through that evolution from when you first conceived the idea, to what made you realize that you needed partnerships to really make it scale to the degree that you hoped it would.

00:05:42:00 - 00:06:10:12
Karla
Well the evolution of you.scaled really started with a fundamental question. Who else is as passionate about helping Canadian small businesses succeed as we are at agentiiv, being a Canadian small business ourselves? And I knew that for this to work, I needed partners who shared that core mission. And our first reach out was to the CMA. The Canadian Marketing Association was and is the perfect first partner because they have trust and educational credibility with the business community.

00:06:10:14 - 00:06:40:12
Karla
When I approached the CMA, they immediately understood that AI literacy was becoming as fundamental as digital literacy was a decade ago, and they had already prepared several programs to that end. Staples brought something crucial - the physical business services and operational support that growing companies need. Their contribution evolved the program by supporting their broader operations through print services for marketing campaigns, discounts and office supplies for expansion, business services for operational growth.

00:06:40:18 - 00:07:06:09
Karla
Staples filled the practical gaps and execution. RBC Ownr provided essential services that help businesses get started. They provide the incorporation or business set up done online, in minutes, at a fraction of the cost and complexity of going to a traditional firm. And CCNDR, the Canadian Council for Nonprofit Directors, which is a division of Imagine Canada, brought the nonprofit perspective.

00:07:06:15 - 00:07:29:05
Karla
This partnership ensured we weren't just creating a program for small businesses. We're building something that strengthens entire communities. What's beautiful about how each partner's contribution made the others more effective was that the program evolved from just, you know, free AI access, if it had just been us, to comprehensive business transformation, something that none of us individually could have created alone.

00:07:29:05 - 00:07:38:13
Karla
But together we built something that genuinely addresses the full spectrum of what Canadian SMEs and nonprofits need to thrive in an AI-driven economy.

00:07:38:15 - 00:07:58:01
Alison
So it's clear that there are a robust array of benefits for the SMEs and the not-for-profits that are successful in obtaining the grants. It's also clear that this is a pretty complex partnership with quite different types of organizations. So what was the most challenging aspect of aligning such diverse organizational cultures around a single program and vision?

00:07:58:03 - 00:08:34:10
Karla
Well, it's funny, orchestrating these different organizational partners has actually been easier than you might think. And here's why. We started with a group of organizations that shared a fundamental, common mission, putting their resources to work to help Canadian small businesses succeed. Each partner immediately understood their individual impact could be exponentially greater through collaboration. The most challenging aspect, and honestly, the only real challenge, was navigating the typical processes of large organizations. Legal approvals, partnership agreements, coordination mechanisms, and aligning just different operational timelines.

00:08:34:12 - 00:08:58:00
Karla
But that effort has been absolutely worth it based on what we can achieve together. What we've created is something none of us could have built alone. A comprehensive support ecosystem where each partner's strengths amplified the others. When organizations generally share the same mission of strengthening Canadian small businesses, partnership architecture becomes about maximizing collective impact, and we were all able to move together.

00:08:58:02 - 00:09:20:06
Alison
So you've shared a bit about the CMA contribution and so have I. I'd like to talk a little bit more about it. So agentiiv is providing the AI platform, which is absolutely the cornerstone of the you.scaled program. And then CMA is bringing educational foundation that helps make implementation successful, whether it's our generative AI training courses, our robust AI resources, or the thought leadership.

00:09:20:08 - 00:09:41:18
Alison
They're all tools that can help businesses and not-for-profits, along with the distribution and membership benefits that we're providing, will really help the successful candidates be able to implement and leverage all of the tools successfully. So how does the partnership address what you identified as that 86% failure rate in meaningful AI implementation?

00:09:41:20 - 00:10:09:18
Karla
Marketing is a critical component of the small business value chain, and that's why the CMA became such an essential partner for making this a successful program. For small businesses, marketing isn't just one department, it's often the primary growth engine and the foundation of their customer relationships. If they can't effectively communicate their value proposition, reach their target audience, or maintain brand consistency, no amount of AI capability will drive meaningful business results.

00:10:09:20 - 00:10:44:10
Karla
And that's part of that, you know, high failure rate that you talked about, is people look at the tool and not the actual objective. CMA brings something irreplaceable to this partnership ecosystem, proven marketing education methodology and decades of experience helping Canadian businesses think strategically about customer engagement. Their AI literacy training isn't just about using the tools, it's about applying strategic marketing thinking to AI implementation, ensuring that these small businesses understand how to integrate AI into their broader marketing and communication strategies.

00:10:44:12 - 00:11:11:16
Karla
When the CMA joined the partnership, it validated our comprehensive approach. The CMA's role as the marketing and strategic education cornerstone to the program makes the entire ecosystem more powerful and more likely to drive lasting transformation. This partnership directly addresses that 86% AI implementation failure rate that you mentioned by tackling the root cause, the gap between having access to AI and actually using it effectively.

00:11:11:17 - 00:11:20:21
Karla
CMA'Ss generative AI courses, thought leadership, and ongoing support create that critical foundation that makes the technology adoption sustainable.

00:11:20:23 - 00:11:50:08
Alison
So we no doubt have many listeners who might be small businesses themselves or not-for-profits. Or if they're not, they probably know some small businesses and not-for-profits that could absolutely benefit from the you.scaled program. Collectively, we are planning to award 350 grants to SMEs and 150 to nonprofits across Canada, and they will have amazing benefits that are provided by the you.scaled program, which is clearly quite an enormous opportunity for those businesses and not-for-profits.

00:11:50:10 - 00:11:57:11
Alison
So I'd love you to share how interested parties can apply for the program and what's required for them to be successful.

00:11:57:13 - 00:12:25:23
Karla
Absolutely. Applications are now open through you.scaled.com, and we're looking for organizations that demonstrate both need and readiness. We want businesses and nonprofits that are motivated to embrace change, have some basic digital literacy, and can commit to the learning process. The key requirement for success isn't technical sophistication. You don't need to be using AI right now. It's organizational openness and a clear vision for your goals for growth.

00:12:26:01 - 00:12:49:22
Karla
We're looking for leaders who see AI as an opportunity to amplify what they already do best, not as a magic solution that requires no effort. Successful recipients typically have someone on their team that can serve as an AI champion or key point of contact. Not necessarily technical, but just curious and willing to experiment with this technology. We're also prioritizing applications that show potential for community impact.

00:12:50:00 - 00:13:01:20
Karla
A rural nonprofit that could serve more families, a manufacturing company that could create jobs. Those multiplier effects are what makes this program transformational rather than just charitable.

00:13:01:22 - 00:13:21:11
Alison
So we will include the link to the website in the podcast notes to make it easy for grant access. Now, the you.scaled program emphasizes authentic Canadian values, community support, collective progress, and regional representation are all key parts of this. So I'd love you to share with our listeners why this is an important part of the program.

00:13:21:12 - 00:13:53:06
Karla
Well, Canadian values aren't just marketing language for us. They're operational principles around how we've architected the program and how we do the screening. We designed you.scaled to embody what Canada does best - collective problem solving, regional equity and building everyone up rather than leaving anyone behind. But there's also an urgent economic imperative here. ICTC research shows that AI adoption could boost Canada's productivity by 1.5% annually over the next decade.

00:13:53:08 - 00:14:23:04
Karla
That represents up to $200 billion in economic opportunity for Canada. As Minister Evan Solomon emphasizes, AI represents Canada's economic destiny. The you.scaled program ensures that SMEs and nonprofits, which employ over 65% of Canadians, are participating in this productivity transformation, not watching it from the sidelines. Our selection process actively ensures meaningful regional representation across all provinces and territories.

00:14:23:09 - 00:14:50:07
Karla
We're also ensuring that women-led, indigenous-led businesses and minority-owned businesses are proportionally represented because diverse leadership creates more resilient and innovative business solutions. Ultimately, you.scaled isn't just about individual business success, it's about ensuring Canada's economic transformation and ensuring that includes everyone, strengthening our national productivity while staying true to our values of equity and community support.

00:14:50:09 - 00:14:59:05
Karla
When SMEs across Canada can compete globally using AI capabilities, we're not just helping individual businesses, we're securing Canada's economic future.

00:14:59:07 - 00:15:15:14
Alison
So looking ahead, the you.scaled program could serve as a powerful model for how Canadian organizations collaborate to help address national challenges. So what lessons about partnership development and management do you think other leaders could apply in their own collaborative initiatives?

00:15:15:16 - 00:15:42:22
Karla
The key lesson from you.scaled is that transformational partnerships require what I call complementary incompleteness. Each partner needs to bring something essential that the others can't replicate, but no single partner can solve the full problem alone. What makes partnerships create real impact versus just share costs is having a shared vision that's bigger than any individual organizational goal. We didn't start with how can we promote our brands together?

00:15:43:00 - 00:16:11:17
Karla
We collectively started with, how can we solve a national economic challenge that no single organization can address? The difference maker is also having clear accountability for collective outcomes, not just individual contributions. We measure success by SME transformation rates, not by how many training courses, you know, the CMA delivered or how many businesses onboarded. When everyone's success is tied to the same outcome, you get real collaboration instead of coordinated self-promotion.

00:16:11:19 - 00:16:24:06
Alison
I absolutely love your phrase complementary incompleteness. So I want to drill down on it a little bit more. What makes the difference between partnerships that create real impact versus those that are more around cost sharing?

00:16:24:08 - 00:16:43:12
Karla
Again, it comes back to that shared mission and being something bigger than what each individual group can. When you share a common purpose, that's where motion meets meaning and everybody is motivated to put in 110% into that partnership.

00:16:43:14 - 00:17:07:09
Alison
I couldn't agree more. And this has been a really great example of that. So Karla, before we wrap, I would love to switch gears and ask the question that I end each of my episodes with. You have an absolutely amazing career that spans agency leadership, big brands, and now founder and entrepreneurial roles. So I know our listeners would love to hear the one piece of career advice that you would share with people who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:17:07:11 - 00:17:38:14
Karla
Wow. That's that's a big question. So the best career advice I can give is this. Your biggest competitive advantage today isn't what you know. It's how quickly you can learn what you don't know. Things are changing so quickly with AI, expertise is becoming commodified. And according to the CEO of Google DeepMind, Demis Hassabis, learning how to learn will be the critical must-have technical skill any of us can have today.

00:17:38:16 - 00:18:01:20
Karla
I've had to reinvent myself multiple times, from corporate marketing to entrepreneurship to now, you know, AI engineer. And each time being willing to be a beginner again has been more valuable than any existing expertise. Also, never underestimate the problem of solving problems that everybody says are too hard or not worth it. That's exciting. And it's a big, hairy, audacious goal.

00:18:01:20 - 00:18:27:08
Karla
And the realization that you can't do it yourself is actually key to bringing in your collective network to solve that big, hairy problem. And then finally, build for the people you want to serve, not the people who are easiest to sell. Again, that generates purpose. And as I mentioned, purpose is where motion meets meaning and is a driving force for everything that we do at agentiiv.

00:18:27:10 - 00:18:44:07
Alison
That is absolutely brilliant advice and thank you so much for sharing. And Karla, I want to say a huge thank you for being the vision behind the you.scaled program idea and for reaching out to the CMA. It is an absolute pleasure for us to be part of this and to be actively supporting Canadian small businesses and not-for-profits.

00:18:44:07 - 00:18:45:21
Alison
So a huge thank you.

00:18:45:23 - 00:18:55:00
Karla
Ah, we're grateful back for your incredible partnership and your contributions.

00:18:55:02 - 00:19:07:15
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Does working hard still help achieve your dreams? In today's episode, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, interviews two strategists from Leo Burnett Toronto: Tahir Ahmad, Chief Strategy Officer, and Sarah Carpentier, PhD, Senior Strategist. Their focus is the 2025 HumanKind Study, revealing how Canadians feel about work and life. When 83% of people don't believe hard work will pay off, the connection between effort and reward has changed - and brands should understand why.

7085B3-CMAPodcast - Ep. 53 - Tahir Ahmad and Sarah Carpentier
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[00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

[00:00:27] Alison: If you're a marketer wondering how to connect with people who are stressed, uncertain, and frankly just trying to get through the day, well you are definitely not alone. Today, we're diving into Leo Toronto's HumanKind Study with Tahir Ahmad and Dr. Sarah Carpentier. Tahir serves as Chief Strategy Officer at Leo Toronto.

[00:00:45] Alison: He's also the original vision behind their highly insightful HumanKind study. It's research that delves into how Canadians are feeling and key trends, including what's keeping consumers up at night. And there are quite a few things keeping us up at night right now. Sarah made the leap from PhD student and management consulting to agency behavioural scientist a little over two years ago, bringing her doctorate in psychology to Leo Toronto, where she's a senior strategist and a principal force behind the HumanKind study.

[00:01:12] Alison: Now in its fourth year, the HumanKind study dives deep into the emotional undercurrent, opportunities and genuine challenges that are facing Canadians today. A few of the themes that we are gonna cover off include Social Stage Fright, Hustle to Nowhere, and Alexa, what is critical thinking. This year, the study also focused on younger Canadians, age 16 to 45, and took a closer look at newcomers to help uncover the emotional undercurrents that are shaping the next generation.

[00:01:40] Alison: It's also the second year that the study expanded beyond Canada to the U.S. to help us really understand how Canadians compare to and differ from Americans. Given the uncertainty with tariffs and the renewed Canadian patriotism, this view is both very timely and sure to provide some fascinating insights to make today's discussion both informative and actionable.

[00:01:58] Alison: Sarah and Tahir will also share what brands can do to help Canadians address their concerns and needs. Welcome Sarah and Tahir. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here today. 

Sarah: Thank you. 

[00:02:07] Tahir: Thanks Alison. It's great to be back. I know we did this last year, so super excited to share the fourth edition. 

[00:02:15] Alison: I'm looking forward to it too. Now, Sarah, since you're new this year and you have an unconventional path to our profession, uh, before we dive into the study, I would really love to hear what attracted you from being a PhD to the wonderful world of marketing and agency life, and also share a bit about what the transition's been like.

[00:02:30] Sarah: Oh, that's a fun question. Okay, so yeah, I think my day to days have changed a little bit. I definitely know a lot more cross industry jargon or I'm really, really collecting it as I go through life. But ultimately everything I've always done at school or at any point in my career is still always ultimately about understanding why people think, feel, and act the way they do, and then how I can use that knowledge to help, you know, improve lives.

[00:03:00] Sarah: So it really all ladders up to the same thing and it, we really understand how it all goes together. I left the PhD world, it was wonderful. But as much as I love research on its own, I really felt quite disconnected from doing something with what was being learned. So I wanted to kind of go out in the world a little bit and help share that knowledge with the people who can benefit from it.

[00:03:21] Sarah: And I think on face value, it can seem a bit out of place for a scientist to want to seek out working at a creative agency. But I know that if you listen to the data and if you listen to the science, then it tells us that human creativity is a really essential ingredient in really connecting people to ideas and creating new ideas that actually move people.

[00:03:45] Sarah: Right. And I really wanted to be a part of that. And when I heard about the HumanKind study and I met Tahir, and I met Ryan Roberts, our SVP of Strategy as well. I loved the way that they thought. I was like, they think like me. They get it. This isn't just something they say, this is actually something they really, really care about and live and breathe.

[00:04:02] Sarah: And so I was really excited to join the team. 

[00:04:04] Alison: It's absolutely great to have you in our profession. I'm looking forward to hearing more about the HumanKind study today. So Tahir, let's start by having you share a little bit about the study and how it's evolved over the four years. 

[00:04:14] Tahir: It's pretty amazing to be here four years in, I guess, now already starting to plan the fifth year.

[00:04:19] Tahir: So the fifth edition is in the works, which is great. And I, I know that we did this last year and we've appeared, I think on the CMA conference a couple years in a row. So maybe there are some people familiar with the study, but, just to very quickly go, you know, to its, its origin. It really fell out of this need to have more Canadian research at hand and, and frankly, our philosophy at Leo is all around humankind and the intimate and deep understanding of human beings and what they need and want and what they dream about, fear and everything that they care about in terms of improving the quality of their life.

[00:04:56] Tahir: And, you know, we just felt as though we never really had this, you know, data that we could go to, uh, and mine that really reflects the mindset of the country. You know, we do research bespoke for clients or particular briefs, and so to truly say that we understand Canadians and human beings better than anyone else, you know, we wanted to create something more proprietary that we could draw from each and every day.

[00:05:24] Tahir: And so that was a bit of a fumbly way of saying how we got to the first edition. And it was very much a, off the side of the desks, you know, we just tried to pull together, uh, as much data as we could. And you can imagine that it's kind of like boiling the ocean. And so over time we've just gotten better and smarter and more efficient at distilling the findings into something that really gets at, uh, perhaps a sharper point of view and what Canadians are thinking and feeling and more

[00:05:50] Tahir: importantly, the way that brands can help solve for those problems and those needs in their lives. And so for this fourth edition, we did change things up a little bit, as you mentioned, off the top. We tried to focus on a younger demos, and Sarah, I'm sure will correct me, as she should, but it was 18 to 45.

[00:06:06] Tahir: I want, no, sorry, 16 to 45. 

Sarah: Sixteen!

Tahir: Yes. Yeah. Sixteen. First correction of the podcast. But yeah, so I, the 16 to 45, which is really intentional on our part because we've had so many conversations with our client partners around not just Gen Z, but even Gen Alpha. And I know that that age range doesn't necessarily tip into that demo, but it just helped us get to a perspective from a segment of the population that is typically hard to hear from.

[00:06:35] Tahir: And so it required a bit more effort and you know, a real conscious effort to hear from those voices because you know, as you can imagine with 16, 17, 18 year olds, they're not always so willing to share their point of view or what they fear in life or what they're going through. And I think that was like, what was really eyeopening for us in this edition is when you're starting to see the anxieties and the tensions that not only those of us who are

[00:07:00] Tahir: living life as adults with kids and the pressures of careers and retirement looming for some people, these are people that are really just starting out their lives and to have a better understanding of what they're already struggling with was really eye-opening. 

[00:07:14] Alison: I'm looking forward to diving into those results for sure.

[00:07:17] Alison: You also have a longer lens view, uh, and through four fairly tumultuous years, certainly COVID, post-COVID, now the economic uncertainty. So what are some of the key changes that you've seen for Canadians given how tumultuous the time has been? 

[00:07:32] Tahir: Yes. I mean, it's interesting. When we first started this, it was hard to get away from, uh, some of those more macro issues that people were struggling with.

[00:07:40] Tahir: Certainly COVID, we started it before COVID, we launched it during COVID. So what we were seeing in terms of feelings of isolation, concerns about, obviously health and safety were big themes in those first few years. And then, you know, last year we saw again the financial uncertainty really, um, be a big factor in people's lives and, and whether or not, you know, they're gonna actually have enough to even, you know, survive, frankly.

[00:08:08] Tahir: This year what we saw was this interesting emerging theme that was through all the different, let's call them sub themes of problems and issues people were facing. So previously we would've had what I would call just, uh, various themes that made up the top problems people were facing. So you could think about the environment, financial situations people were in, their health and wellness, the healthcare system, and so on here in Canada.

[00:08:35] Tahir: This was the first year where we saw a common thread throughout all the different things that people were struggling with. And that was this, this notion of the pressure and the weight of needing to feel like you have to win in life. And so it was interesting to just see that there's this perspective out there that people just need to be better and who they are right now is not good enough.

[00:08:56] Tahir: And so, uh, when you think about what that means and you think about your own lives, frankly, everything from, being a better runner, you know, being a better parent, being a better employee or leader is a sense that like, we always have to be better because who we are right now is not good enough. And meeting expectations means that we're actually coming up short.

[00:09:18] Tahir: And so, you know, and I always think about this example of being better sleepers, as somebody who has struggled off and on with my sleep over my life. I know that there's very little you can do about your sleep, and yet we still have apps that tell us that we could be doing better. So, you know, I think it's getting to this point now where, and there's this quote that I always refer back to from a 23-year-old.

[00:09:40] Tahir: Her name is Sasha and she says, everyone's always, everyone always has to be self-improving. And just being yourself is not enough now. And you know, I think that's one of those quotes that just, when you think about, you know, how we at least try to lead the younger generations, or as parents, you try to help your children understand that who they are is 

[00:09:59] Tahir: good enough, and they should be proud of who they are, and they should embrace who they are. And now there's this feeling of, actually no, as I am right now, I'm not good enough. And so there's this quest for betterment that is constantly driving people and as a result, they feel like they're always coming up short.

[00:10:14] Alison: It's an amazing finding. When you think like the quest for betterment on its surface and when you first hear it and think about the desire to improve, they  all seem like positive, good, healthy things. But what the research is telling us, is that it's been taken to a point where we can't be content with what we have today and that's really unfortunate. 

[00:10:28] Sarah: Yeah. It can go too far. Yeah.

[00:10:30] Sarah: Always trying to be better and never happy enough with today. And I'll add to what Tahir said as well. When we look at that longer lens of having done this for four years is a few years ago, we had circumstances in the world that were out of our control, and people knew that, and they were a little resigned to that, and it was upsetting.

[00:10:47] Sarah: But we've moved out of that and we can look at how Canadian's mindset is changing over, you know, the several years we've been doing this now. And you know, they came out of that swinging a little bit. Like, all right, it's been two years. I need something different. I need change. The world should be better.

[00:11:04] Sarah: Come on people. This has been long enough. That was a little bit more of this like big attitude about it last year and this year they're a little more focused on, okay, maybe not the big change I wanna see is as possible, and that's, that's okay. I still care about improving things and making the world better, but I need to see improvement in my life somewhere and I need to make it happen myself.

[00:11:27] Sarah: So what are the small things that I can control, right? I maybe can't control global events, but what can I do in my life, um, to impact my close world and focus on the things I can control? I still care about climate change. Maybe personally I can't do anything about the forest fires, but what can, can I do?

[00:11:45] Sarah: And just seeing that, like you said, we have that longer lens and seeing this evolution of the mindset of Canadians is really interesting.

[00:11:50] Alison: And also the appreciation that those little steps add up on an individual basis, on a family basis, on a community basis. There's such power. 

[00:11:59] Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. Like the impact we can have on the lives of someone right close near us and that matters.

[00:12:05] Sarah: And that's good if the small things are not a failure. Oh, I didn't change this entire system. No, but you made someone's day better, right? Or you made your day a little better. And that is actually, yeah, how we'll get there. 

[00:12:16] Alison: So what are some of the other key themes and issues and problems that Canadians are living with and struggling with right now?

[00:12:31] Sarah: so we talk about finance and we look into social relationships with friends and family, people having kids, relationships with parents are of course relevant for this age group of younger people. And obviously there's lots of digital world and online world and things we can explore and the bigger problems.

[00:12:48] Sarah: And then in the report, we really boil them down into to cluster them together in some themes and, I think the this higher level theme that we're seeing of this, the world is so competitive and I feel the need to be better, I have this weight of winning is probably most obvious in people's finances and in their careers right now.

[00:13:08] Sarah: Right? People feel there's only a certain amount to go around and now we're all kind of in competition with one another for it. And we get into in the report how that's affecting, of course, this age group's relationship with work, because of course that's something that is getting talked about a lot and it's a big part of their lives and how they're changing their perspective after many years of their experiences not giving them kind of what they expected they were gonna get out of it.

[00:13:38] Sarah: So there was the old kind of mantra of, you work hard and that will probably lead to success, and the majority of Canadians are really questioning that is true or just fully don't believe that that is true anymore. It kind of sounds like, you know, the reward for hard work is just more hard work. So they're trying to think about how can they change their relationship with work to get more out of it for what they're putting in, in a way that makes a lot of sense.

[00:14:08] Sarah: Right? Not leading to so much burnout, especially the younger generations, especially the Gen Z, who are maybe looking at some burned out millennials who might feel like it's a little too late to change. I don't know what else I could do, but Gen Z are looking at that going. Okay, that's not working for you.

[00:14:23] Sarah: You're doing all that and you still don't have a house, so maybe I'm gonna try and find something different to do. That's a really, I think, obvious place where that theme would come out, but it's really fascinating how we see it across so many different things, though. So this idea of competitiveness isn't just confined to money or jobs or even, I think,

[00:14:43] Sarah: the, you know, relatively obvious space of social media where people have that element of you need to present yourself a certain way and you need to look good. And there's this social competition, but we even see it extending into people's real life social lives as well. So real life interactions with friends and people you know, kind of are starting to have this undercurrent of being oddly performative.

[00:15:08] Sarah: They're very socially anxious, right? Did I do well? Did they judge me well, or did I fail and make myself look stupid and I embarrassed myself?  And so this overarching feeling of competition and social anxiety we really see coming through of course, as well. And I think people have heard a little bit about the social anxiety that especially younger generations are experiencing.

[00:15:31] Sarah: Um, and so we really dive into what's going on with that, where that's coming from and what that's leading to. 

[00:15:36] Tahir: And Sarah, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that stat was like, 73% of Gen Z feels social anxiety. I mean, I don't wanna put you on the spot. 

[00:15:43] Sarah: No, it is. 

[00:15:44] Tahir: I remember that number being like surprisingly high 

[00:15:48] Sarah: And it's going up, especially compared to last year.

[00:15:51] Sarah: Yeah. 73% of Gen Z say that there's sometimes, or always very nervous about what to say or how to interact socially. And it's, it's sad, right? Because these are just the moments when you're actually with a person and you're still kind of holding yourself back. You're still kind of separate from one another a little bit.

[00:16:11] Alison: That is such a shocking percentage and a really sad statement. Then if you overlay other research that's been done about the loneliness epidemic in Canada across all different age groups but it's particularly relevant for younger generations. So we have the loneliness pandemic combined with social stage fright, and then the hustle to nowhere, it feels like need to give our younger Canadians more hope and reasons to believe in opportunities and to truly be themselves. 

[00:16:39] Sarah: A lot of it's coming from this idea of like me against the world, or they must be trying to get something out of me, right? Everyone's kind of in it for themselves. So, I am hesitant to be vulnerable with this person because they might use it against me. 

[00:16:54] Tahir: Hey, just on that, it's always interesting to have these conversations because then you can reflect back on the findings, you know, perhaps in slightly different ways, and the weight of winning was the theme.

[00:17:03] Tahir: But you could probably also say the theme is burnout. Because there's such a pressure to not just be better, but to create this quality of life you, you believed was available to you or that you believed was promised to you in some way. But then when you think about the pressures that people are feeling at such a young age and they're not seeing it pay off, and then they all feel like they're kind of trying to get a piece of the same pie, it becomes this like competitive.

[00:17:31] Tahir: Nature of just, well, if you're winning, that means I'm losing. So that zero sum game, you know, sort of the thought where it's just like, well, I don't know if I necessarily wanna see that person doing better on social media because then it makes me look at my own life. It makes me feel inadequate and makes me feel like I'm not achieving some of the things that maybe I should be achieving.

[00:17:50] Tahir: And so it's kind of like cyclical. And then you see how in the hustle to nowhere, if my memory serves, I believe last year we, we talked about the, the side hustle culture. Like there was a time when that was actually seen as a bit of a badge of honour, you know. And it also kind of represented something different like, well, if I have something on the side, it's maybe a passion project or you know, it's a collaboration, it's an outlet for me that's on top of my, let's call it nine to five.

[00:18:16] Tahir: And now what we're seeing is, for Gen Z and even millennials -- I believe for millennials it's one in four, Gen Z it's one in three, have a second job. So it's moving beyond this "Oh my God, I'm envious that you have this passion project on the side. Maybe I should" to we actually need these second incomes because it's a way of being able to afford life.

[00:18:40] Tahir: Life's basics, frankly, not even nicer things in life or luxuries in life. It's basics. And so even that hustle culture now carries a different feeling and a, and a different perception for the younger people, which is like, I have to do this now. I don't want to necessarily do this, right? 

[00:18:58] Sarah: Exactly. It's that evolution of what, 10 years ago or however long ago, with Rise and Grind and Girl Bossing, which I'm gonna start a Boy Bossing hashtag, um, and like, you know, hustle culture and rise and grind.

[00:19:11] Sarah: And they did that. They rose, they grinded, and it didn't... listen, for some people it works out right? There's always some people that can look at this and say, no, this did work for me. But we're talking a majority of Canadians are saying that feels like a bit of a lie. It feels like a trick. It feels like a trick to get me to work more.

[00:19:29] Sarah: I don't have this extra thing on the side because I'm trying to get ahead. I have something on the side because that's the world now because I need two jobs. 

[00:19:38] Tahir: In order to afford basic groceries is what we heard from young Canadians. Like I, one quote, which is, I wish I could go to the grocery store and, and just get groceries and not worry about having enough.

[00:19:48] Tahir: And obviously we know there's varying degrees people are living through. I think 83% of people don't feel as though their hard work's gonna pay off. So, you know, it, it really moves the goalposts a bit further, you know, from where, where they were before for a lot of people. 

[00:20:01] Alison: When you think of it from a Canadian perspective as well, it's like the other dynamic that's happening that it feels counter to rise and grind and all the hard work that so many Canadians are putting in every day, every week, is our productivity as a nation's gone way down.

[00:20:16] Alison: So if it doesn't feel like we're winning on either side of that equation. 

[00:20:19] Tahir: Right. And they also don't see their hard work or their loyalty being, you know, appreciated or, or rewarded by employers, right? So when you hear of headlines like three to 5% of, of the total employee base being laid off or cuts here and so on,

[00:20:39] Tahir: or caps on promotions or whatever it might be. It's hard for young Canadians to look at the current environment and go, well, why should I even do this, because there is no loyalty in, in return, there's no longevity anymore. There's no joining one or two companies and sort of, you know, building your career over time.

[00:20:58] Tahir: And so, and, and the fact that they've also just seen layoffs in their own home, right? They've experienced it themselves. I believe it's like one in three have have experienced a loss of a job in their household. Right? So imagine again, if they're seeing this, whether it's their parents or, you know, depending on their age themselves.

[00:2114] Tahir: Like they're starting to see, again, the pressure that that has on finances as well. And it just, it continues to sort of build this perpetual cycle. 

[00:21:23] Sarah: Someone said, why would I be loyal to some company that's not loyal to me? They'll replace me tomorrow. There's a little, you're gonna get yours, I'm gonna get mine.

[00:21:31] Sarah: So it's not that people don't wanna work, it's that they're updating where they're working and how they're working to maximize things for them, because they're thinking, if this company is gonna maximize things for themselves and I'm a number to them, great. I'll show up and I'll do my job. But then I have to have a certain distance with it.

[00:21:49] Sarah: Even for not only finances, but your self image and your worth and everything. Right? I can't put my whole identity in this job because the majority of Canadians think they'll just be, could easily just be replaced tomorrow at their job. And I think we think about in the context you're saying about the productivity in this country.

[00:22:04] Sarah: I think it's an important thing for us to think about when we're thinking about how we motivate these people, how we get the best work out of them because I think they would probably say, and I think the evidence would show that the old approach of, you're just not working hard enough, or more of this, they're a little, show me the money.

[00:22:22] Sarah: They're a little, show me the benefits right now, and that's okay. We can work with that. Right? We just need to adjust how we work with that. These are people who, they wanna work, they want things out of it, they buy into that, but they just wanna make sure it's working for them too. 

[00:22:36] Tahir: And I think that's a big misperception of this younger generation, right?

[00:22:39] Tahir: That they're not hard workers and, and the truth of the matter is they are. And the evidence shows that not only in their willingness to, you know, put in the effort and the long hours, but the fact that they have second jobs, you know, while they're building careers. I wouldn't say we had that, or at least had that pressure or had that need to do that.

[00:22:59] Tahir: You know, obviously times were tight, you know, early on in your career, but not where you felt as though you needed a second job just to afford basics and groceries. So, and I would say obviously AI is not helping in that regard, you know? I think there, what we saw this year versus last year, I think last year there was still a lot of the unknown, and so people were really unsure of what this was, and there was probably more anxiety and concern over it than this year.

[00:23:22] Tahir: I think we're seeing, it's still for the most part, 50/50. I just think now we're starting to see people, you know, and for the most part it's, it's Generative AI tools like Chat GPT. But I think there's people that are like, no, this is interesting. It's helping me make, you know, it's helping me do things a bit faster, more efficiently.

[00:23:36] Tahir: It's, I feel a bit smarter as a result of this. And so there is some genuine optimism and, and I would say excitement around what this could become. But then on the flip side of that, there's still concern that at the end of the day, I'm gonna lose my job to AI or it's gonna be outsourced in a certain way, or you know.

[00:23:54] Tahir: So again, like it's, if that continues to compound, those fears and anxieties people have about just being easily replaced. 

[00:24:01] Alison: So there's clearly no shortage of angst and very valid concerns and negative sentiment among Canadians right now. What are the opportunities for brands in that? Because brands can always be part of a solution if they understand how Canadians are really feeling.

[00:24:18] Tahir: I mean, that's always the great question, and, and we know, we always try to make sure that the report isn't always just about the doom and gloom. We just find it's, it's important to uncover the, the issues at hand so that we can then really hone in on and identify the ways that brands can be part of the solution.

[00:24:36] Tahir: You know, I'd say out of the gate, one of the big things is just frankly listening. And I know that might just sound a little trite, but the fact that the one step that all that continues to go up every year is the fact that Canadians don't believe brands understand what they're going through. And this year we learned that only 13% believe that brands have their best interests at heart.

[00:25:01] Tahir: And when you're almost in the single digits, I mean, that's, that's alarming. And when you think about, we, you know, we've been in enough market marketing symposiums to know that building relationships with your customers is the key to growth and long-term success and sustainability and so on. A core element of a relationship is that you believe the other person or party has your best interest at heart.

[00:25:27] Tahir: And so when you see that number so low and the fact that people just don't believe brands get what they're going through, just actively listening and demonstrating that you're listening to people and you're designing products and services around what people need versus just what you need to put out into the market.

[00:25:45] Tahir: I think is a, is a massive first step. 

[00:25:47] Sarah: While you're talking, I'm thinking about the, a little now over-dated, but the "Okay, Boomer" trend of like, okay, you don't get it, and you can kind of almost take that idea and apply it to brands a little bit. The idea of that's, you're showing me this, okay, you don't get what I'm going through at all.

[00:26:05] Sarah: You're just telling me, oh, I need to save for retirement do I? Cool. We'll get right on that. Like that's not a practical thing in my life right now. So you're clearly signalling to me that you don't actually get what I have going on, and so I'm gonna kind of disregard everything else you might be saying, even if it is beneficial or helpful, and it's not necessarily about like speaking in lingo, but just any of that, 

[00:26:29] Sarah: Okay, they get it at all is a bit of a, will I pay attention to this or not, right? Because we know younger generations are really good at ignoring ads, are really good at ignoring brands. And so there's a quick, do they get me? Or are they just doing the same thing they've always done? They're talking to someone from a different time that isn't relevant for me in my life.

[00:26:49] Sarah: And it's not just about brands. It's not that brands are failing people so catastrophically on their own. I know from the research, it's a very skeptical environment in general. Like we said, people aren't even trusting those conversations they're having with their friends entirely. We hear from them

[00:27:07] Sarah: There's a lot of people making promises. No, I am doing something to try and help you. It's like, no, you're not. You're doing something to help yourself, and you're disguising it as trying to help me. So what is the way that we can help overcome that really, really skeptical environment that all brands are operating in?

[00:27:25] Sarah: Right? I mean, the simplest way is show them, don't tell them. Canadians understand, companies, organizations need to make money, and they're not against that by any stretch of the means. It's not, you can't operate, how dare you have profit? It's a little more, but can they feel like there's balance? What's the balance for where I feel like I'm getting something out of it?

[00:27:45] Sarah: And does it feel too one-sided? That's like the first passive judgment is that layer of skepticism and we can overcome it as long as we don't ignore it. How can we make those connections and show up for people in a way that feels authentic and they say, yeah, that's my life. I am not the parent in the giant house with everything going on and that wonderful two cars in the garage and this and that.

[00:28:04] Sarah: It's aspirational, but it's not my life, so it doesn't necessarily speak to me. So things like that, how are we showing up for them? 

[00:28:10] Tahir: I think it's embracing their reality. Even reflecting it. We talked about the typical more conventional path to success, or what does a successful life look like? I mean, this younger generation has given up on that being available to them or attainable for them already.

[00:28:27] Tahir: There's a stat in the report, I think it's 43% of Gen Z have given up on the careers they wanted or having the job that they thought they would have, or, you know, basically at such a young age, they've already determined that that's probably not possible. If you then extend that to things like owning a home or having this career that I thought I was going to have as a result of my degree or all of these things that they're, they're now rewriting their own path to success, and so brands just need to reflect that and not always talk in terms of like what might have been more realistic

[00:29:02] Tahir: 10, 20, 30 years ago. How do you even depict those scenarios in advertising? How do brands innovate and design products and offer services that cater to this new path, this new approach, and not just looking at, well, when you're 65 and you retire, and so on, because retirement for one, is not even a, a word in their vernacular anymore.

[00:29:26] Sarah: We all wanna be optimistic, right? We wanna present happiness to people. And so I think brands sometimes get afraid of engaging with the reality because they think it's either, I get sucked down into the darkness and I have to be making like a big emotional speech and saying things about that world. And it's, oh, if I say anything bad, it's a negative tone and I wanna be happy.

[00:29:49] Sarah: I wanna talk about the nice things and I wanna present, um, optimism to the world. It's not one or the other. Because I think with this group, when you present just the, Hey, isn't it great how you know X, Y, and Z can help? It doesn't feel as real to them and it's okay when we connect with a little bit of the difficulty

[00:30:10] Sarah: they have, just a little bit to help show them how we can help them get out of it. Feels much more real and they connect much more to it than just the, Hey, here's this great thing on the other side, which is, I'm, I'm obviously presenting extremes to illustrate the point, but if we think of the brands that are connecting most with people, they're acknowledging the reality, and it's not depressing people because they know that that's their reality right now.

[00:30:37] Sarah: It's not, oh, yeah, never occurred to me that I'm really upset about X, Y, and Z. It's, I am already, I feel seen that makes me trust them more when they say they can make it better. 

[00:30:47] Alison: The other benefit of taking that approach is obviously showing empathy, actually gaining credibility with the people you're talking to and for the people that you're marketing to.

[00:30:57] Alison: It helps them understand that, you know what, I'm not in it alone. There are other people around who are also struggling through this, and maybe there are ways that we can come together. Maybe I don't need to be as down on myself as I am. 

[00:31:09] Tahir: Maybe Sarah said this, but I think that that came out really loud and clear the theme of the need to win.

[00:31:15] Tahir: Because it's also then about the competitiveness you have with your, with your inner circle as well, right? So it's like, now you're not just competing against those job job applicants. You're competing in life against your friends and your family and so on. It can start to make you feel as though you are on your own a little bit in life, um, which can be a scary place to be.

[00:31:35] Alison: Yes, and the whole social stage fright trend that came out of HumanKind this year that people aren't feeling comfortable and truly being themselves. That just really highlights the degree of this issue and the need as marketers to really acknowledge what Canadians are going through and try to help find solutions. Now, I know you also did a deep dive on newcomers to Canada this year, and I'd love for you to share some of your findings.

[00:31:57] Alison: I know when you presented at the CMA Case for Canada, we had a number of newcomers in the audience and a couple of them came up to you afterwards, literally in tears saying, I feel so seen and I'm so happy to know that it's not just me. So resonated not just with the broader marketing profession, but with the actual newcomers to Canada.

[00:32:15] Alison: So very curious to hear some of those findings. 

[00:32:19] Sarah: That's a great illustration of what you just said. Wait, it isn't just me and, and I feel connected now, hearing that it's other people, I thought it was, thought it was just me. So in the report we have a whole chapter on people who are new to Canada and we go into how do each of the themes in the rest of the report show up for them and how, what does that mean for them?

[00:32:37] Sarah: But something that I found really interesting is we looked at a wide range of when people arrived in Canada. So we looked at people who had just arrived in the past year, two to three years, up to 10 years plus to look at not only what is it like when they first get here, but what does it look like a couple years later, three years later, and what does that journey and evolution look like for them?

[00:33:00] Sarah: In a lot of ways, and I think the thing that newcomers connect with is it gets worse before it gets better. So, you know, when you first arrive here, that's a big change. That's a big move, and you expect it to be difficult. They expect, okay, I don't know very many people. My job is new, my home is new.

[00:33:23] Sarah: Everything is new. I'm gonna work really, really hard. This is maybe the worst they'll get. And then in a lot of ways, it's two years later, three years later, and they're like, I don't feel any better. I don't feel like I have more of a community than I used to have. They're laid off at a much higher rate than the rest of Canada.

[00:33:42] Sarah: So many of them within those first couple years of being here, have lost their jobs. So they've had an experience economically that has been very difficult for them. I don't know how Canada's selling itself to the rest of the world, but a lot of people do talk about their economic expectations were different than when they got here.

[00:33:59] Sarah: After they've been here for a while, they start to match how the rest of Canada feels, which is, Hey, wait, there was a promise here that isn't quite paying off, but it does seem like that's not what they expected when they got here. Yeah. It's a couple years in and it's not better. It's harder. I'm still living in a basement or I still only know a couple people from maybe the country that I was from.

[00:34:21] Sarah: It does start to get better after that if they stick with it a bit. But last year in the news, there was this talk about a very high percentage of newcomers were thinking about leaving Canada. I can tell you why now. The difficulties in their lives, like it's three, four years in and it's still really hard and they still feel very alone.

[00:34:40] Tahir: And if you, if you think about what we, we started with in this convo around the pressure, right, that people are feeling and the pressure to succeed or create a life that is quote unquote seen as successful or however you want to call it, you know, they come here with that added pressure of I made this massive leap in my life to create a better life for myself and, and most likely a family that maybe wasn't able to come with you.

[00:35:05] Tahir: And so when that doesn't work out the way you planned, and then perhaps you're seeing people back home where you came from perhaps living a better life, starts to really compound that feeling of, I actually. I failed to some degree. And so, and that's not obviously why you would make the sacrifices that new to Canada make.

[00:35:25] Tahir: But then at the same time, you can see that resilience, right? Because they do stick with it and they do put in the effort and the sacrifices. And so, you know, I think much like young Canadians. Our big takeaway for this year was just the resilience that they're showing and the grittiness and the strength that they have to continue to push despite the fact that they feel as though the world around them is changing and not always for the better.

[00:35:49] Alison: It takes such grit and such bravery to literally pick up your entire life and move to a new country. So you're right, it absolutely is around confidence and self-belief and wanting to create a better future. Now, you also have your second year of being able to compare Canadian findings with the U.S. and this year, more than ever, it would be fascinating to see what emerged.

[00:36:09] Alison: So I'd love you to share some of the differences that you're seeing and also any similarities. 

[00:36:14] Tahir: I think what was most surprising was how similar the findings and the data was from across, across markets. So you know, a lot of what Canadians are feeling, a lot of what young Canadians are feeling is similar to how young Americans are feeling and new to America are feeling.

[00:36:29] Tahir: And so there were a couple bigger differences, but overall there was a lot that was similar. 

[00:36:36] Sarah: We all know how much cultural sharing and, you know, entertainment sharing there is across borders and how much what they have going on really spreads out and affects other people. And we're obviously here on this side of the world with them.

[00:36:51] Sarah: So when you're at the high level of like, ultimately what are you really concerned about are fundamentally quite similar, right? We're all people, they're not fundamentally different. They know the Canadian dream is a little different than the American dream, but there's some overlap. But then when you see those differences, when you start to move down into what are they doing about it or how is it manifesting, or what kind of solutions do they want?

[00:37:14] Sarah: It was really interesting, especially last year, um, when I was in all the U.S. research, with the Canadians, they might disagree on solutions. But more or less, we all agree what the problems are, versus when we were talking to the Americans, I was like, oh, you don't agree what the problems are. We're further back in the process here.

[00:37:38] Sarah: You know, someone will say that their top concern is X, Y, and Z. Someone will say, that doesn't even bother me at all. I'm concerned about this. So young people in America have much more concern about their physical safety, going to school and being in large groups than people in Canada do. The number two concern for Gen Z in America in last year's study was gun violence and physical safety.

[00:37:59] Sarah: And then there's many small differences, right? So ultimately they have similar directions of opinions about social media for example. There are some concerns how it's influencing, who's doing the influencing. But then when you look at the actual numbers, Canadians are more concerned about that than Americans.

[00:38:18] Sarah: Young Americans will still say that, but it's to a lesser degree. They spend a little more time on social media and on their phones than Canadians do. So it's about those differences that, sometimes when we're talking about it, it can be okay, that these are similarities. And sometimes it's like, no, no, no, this, this nuance does make that difference.

[00:38:34] Sarah: And that's why we do the two different studies. Is kind of what are those fundamental human things or things that are affecting all of us? And then really, when it comes down to it, what are the ways that that we're different and that that matters? 

[00:38:44] Alison: Clearly there is wonderful fodder for marketers and brands coming to the HumanKind study and Tahir, earlier in the conversation you shared

[00:38:52] Alison: the biggest opportunity is really to listen and become more aware of how Canadians are feeling and be able to really understand and then empathize with Canadians. What else would you recommend for our listeners in how they can action the HumanKind study moving forward? 

[00:39:11] Sarah: I think the biggest single risk for brands right now is just to not be relevant, is to just focus too inward.

[00:39:21] Sarah: Focus on what you are doing and how you wanna present yourself to the world, and how you wanna be seen and realize that that's from 10 years ago, 20 years ago. It's, it's, they're ignoring you. They're not fighting back against you necessarily. But I think kind of the biggest thing we're up against is there's so much vying for everyone's attention and we just won't get seen.

[00:39:44] Sarah: They're doing very quick - is this relevant to me or not? So that next piece is what is most relevant for your brand and what you are doing, and how can we do the same thing we've done here for all of Canada, for your audiences, your consumers, so that you can be showing up for them the way they need to see you.

[00:40:05] Tahir: I would just jump in to say the big reason why we did this was to really identify the problems that need to be solved. Obviously, not every problem. But when we always find the biggest and brightest and more, most compelling ideas that we come up with, they clearly help solve a problem. And you know that that's where we can't shy away from what these problems are.

[00:40:32] Tahir: And we can't say we don't know them or don't understand them because that's what this work is intended to unearth. And so I would say that's the big push. And we have client partners who have literally taken insights or data points from this study and said, we need to do something about that. And I did another podcast just all around the Just Talk campaign we did with Bell that really went at the loneliness epidemic from last year's study, because it just, it struck the, the leads over there as this is something that we can help with.

[00:41:01] Tahir: As a brand, credibly. You know, and I think that would be the second big piece, is that credibility piece, that authenticity piece. So we have the a point in the, in the report around the A word, you know, and not wanting to always throw around authenticity because to be your authentic self can sometimes just feel like it's, it's an obvious statement, but you know, again, the point that it's making is - know who you are as a brand.

[00:41:25] Tahir: Don't try and, and be something you're not. But then, be transparent in what you are trying to do and how you're trying to help, and then walk the talk, you know? So I think that's the big thing is like, so when you think about innovation pipelines and products and services that you're creating and designing against, this is an opportunity to design against problems that exist that people are struggling with, that have an impact on their lives.

[00:41:51] Tahir: And you can do something about it and solve it. And in doing so, you create that relationship, that bond with your consumers that will will, you know, last the test of time, hopefully.  

[00:42:03] Alison: Before I let you go, one last question. So I'd love you both to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

[00:42:11] Alison: You both have very different pathways, um, and experiences in marketing. So I'm really looking forward to hearing your answer. 

[00:42:18] Tahir: I feel like I'm gonna say the same thing I did last year. For me, it was always just about hard work, but I'm actually gonna change that now in context of what we've been talking about today.

[00:42:25] Tahir: But just listening. Like I, I was fortunate to have some really great mentors throughout my career and in, in addition to just, you know, I'm always told, put your head down, work hard. You know, I think what we're learning in this study is just putting your head down and working hard is not always going to help you achieve what you wanna achieve, but I've always found

[00:42:45] Tahir: really listening to people's advice and direction and feedback, whether it was positive or more constructive and never stopping that. Like I've never, no matter where I get to, what level I get to or what have you, you know. I listen to, I find Sarah brilliant and fascinating and I learn something from Sarah every time we speak.

[00:43:07] Tahir: And so I think to me, that's been something that I have always done and will continue to do, uh, in my career. 

[00:43:13] Alison: That's great advice. You're absolutely right. It doesn't matter if you're a student. It doesn't matter if you're a CEO. That is always part of your career success and your career journey. 

[00:43:21] Sarah: Over to you.

[00:43:22] Sarah: I think maybe I'm considered someone who followed a less traditional career path. I think that's probably more of the future and traditional career paths are becoming maybe a little less common. I think most of the people I know who are successful and happy at work have had winding career paths because they followed what really interested them and excited them

[00:43:43] Sarah: rather than pigeonholing themselves into a particular job title or a particular idea of a job that, you know, they fall in love with the idea or they look at something and that I'm gonna have that job title in a certain number of years, or I'm gonna work in that industry in a certain number of years, instead of focus on what you really enjoy.

[00:44:05] Sarah: Chase your passions a little bit, but also it's work. We know, maybe it's not passions. Just find some things that you like and find the roles that you can do that allow you to do those. And take every opportunity. You might have an opportunity that comes up that doesn't seem like it's perfectly aligned with a linear path that you have in your mind, but you're gonna be collecting those experiences and that's what you're going to bring to the table later on.

[00:44:30] Sarah: And it's, it's follow the things you love. And hone the skills that you're good at. I also have one piece of very practical advice for people that I give them as well, which is learn to write. Um, I think very practically, as a professional now, um, and as someone who was a teaching assistant at the University of Toronto,

[00:44:39] Sarah: for many, many years, and I've read many, many essays. Learn to write. Writing is not my natural forte. It's probably the thing I struggled with most in my life. But I'm here today because of a report I helped write. I took extra classes when I was in undergrad to learn how to write better. Because you're an ideas person and you think I have great ideas.

[00:45:13] Sarah: Your idea is kind of only worth as much as you're able to communicate it. 

[00:45:17] Tahir: Can I throw one build on that, that brings it back to the study? Which is, with AI and with tools like Chat GPT. We do have a point made in the report about the loss of critical thinking and original thinking, so I would encourage all of the younger people who hopefully are listening to this to challenge yourself to get your own

[00:45:43] Tahir: thinking down and write your own thinking out. Because when you're just gonna use Chat GPT to arrive at those ways in, you're gonna lose the ability to think critically and originally, which is what ideas really need to thrive. 

[00:46:00] Sarah: You know, it might help you get the grade in the class in that month, but when you're out in the world, it's not about that anymore.

[00:46:08] Sarah: You wanna stand out from a sea of same. So yeah, you can use all these tools to help you, but new ideas and that critical thinking element will always have a case. So yeah, for sure. I agree with Tahir on that. There's tools that are helpful, but make sure you're learning how to express yourself and form your own ideas,

[00:46:25] Sarah: and have unique ideas. 

[00:46:26] Alison: Absolutely outstanding advice. Thank you both and thank you for a really great conversation. 

[00:46:30] Tahir: Our pleasure. Thanks for having us again, Alison.

[00:46:38] Presenter: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Traditional teaching methods are changing, and the skills future marketers need are evolving faster than universities can adapt. How can post-secondary institutions prepare students for a profession where change is the only constant? In today's episode, CEO of the CMA Alison Simpson interviews Kyle Murray, Dean of the Lazaridis School of Business and Economics at Wilfred Laurier University. Kyle's approach: Embrace experiential learning, integrate Generative AI, and prioritize uniquely human skills such as adaptability and emotional intelligence. His most important insight? Cultivate a 'forever student' mindset - because in marketing, the most valuable skill is learning.

[00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

[00:00:26] Alison: For today's episode, I'm pleased to welcome Kyle Murray, the Dean of the Lazaridis School of Business and Economics at Wilfred Laurier University. Kyle took over as Dean in July of 2024 after a distinguished career at the University of Alberta School of Business, where he served as the acting Dean with a PhD in marketing and psychology.

[00:00:44] Alison: Kyle brings deep expertise in innovation and behavioural change, utilizing experimental psychology and behavioural economics to better understand the choices that people make. He's consulted with clients in government and Fortune 50 companies and also been a founder, advisor investor in a series of startups.

[00:01:02] Alison: In his new role as Dean, Kyle is focused on expanding the university's leadership and experiential learning, also in engaging alumni and enriching a culture of innovation that encourages risk-taking and challenges convention. With generative AI and other technological disruptions reshaping how we educate future marketers and the skills that they'll need to succeed, this culture is even more important than ever before.

[00:01:25] Alison: Kyle's recent transition from Alberta to Ontario has also given him some fresh insights into regional differences in our Canadian education system, as well as their impact on business talent development. And this is one of the many topics that we will discuss today. Kyle, I'm really looking forward to a great conversation, and it's an absolute pleasure to share the mic with you today on CMA Connect.

[00:01:46] Kyle: Thanks, Alison. I'm really excited to be here. I'm a big fan of CMA and my first time on the podcast, so yeah, I'm looking forward to it. 

[00:01:53] Alison: Kyle, I'd love to start by hearing your story. First, what drew you to higher education and teaching the marketing profession? 

[00:01:59] Kyle: Yeah, I think it's just, I love learning and I really enjoy the university environment. I'm a researcher at heart and I like the scientific method.

[00:02:08] Kyle: This time of year, especially, the university is just such an exciting and energizing place to be, so that's really what drew me into it. I actually started my career as an entrepreneur. I was involved in a few startups, and that sounds better than it is. What really happened was I graduated in the early 1990s with an undergraduate degree in psychology.

[00:02:28] Kyle: And I could not find a job, so I had to start my own, make my own job, start my own business. But that, that worked out well because after a few different endeavours, I was able to sell them and that allowed me to go back to get a PhD. So I suddenly found myself with some time and a little bit of money and flexibility, and so I went back to get a PhD.

[00:02:48] Kyle: I still wasn't entirely sure what I'd do. I knew I liked research. I didn't know how I'd like teaching in the university environment. I taught my first class. I fell in love with it. I got a great job offer here in Southern Ontario, actually at the Ivey School at Western Ontario, and that's where I started my career.

[00:03:04] Kyle: And I've been in academia ever since. Marketing in particular, I think I was drawn to just because I find people fascinating. My, my background was in psychology as well as marketing. So just consumers and consumer decision making, why they do what they do. I still find it fascinating and I'll probably never get tired of asking questions about that.

[00:03:25] Alison: I love that, in many ways, necessity is the mother of invention. You graduated in a challenging economy and created your own path, which is amazing. I also love that you've got that entrepreneurial and builder mentality and experience, and then came back to higher education, because I think having that real world experience is so powerful for educating the marketers of tomorrow as well.

[00:03:49] Kyle: I agree. I think it's a helpful mindset to have, but I have to say sometimes it's a mindset that bumps up against the bureaucracy that is a large university or even a mid-sized university. It can be challenging at times as you wanna move quickly, and one of the things I've really had to learn is patience.

[00:04:04] Kyle: Things don't move as fast in a big organization as they do when it's a small shop. And I think I've learned that over time to some extent. But it's still certainly a challenge. 

[00:04:13] Alison: Before joining the CMA I spent four years in the startup world. It really is about evolve or die. So I can absolutely relate to needing to relearn some patience when I came back to a bigger organization for sure.

[00:04:25] Alison: So I know you've worked in Ireland and Australia as well as Canada, so I'd love you to share any differences that you've seen and how marketing's taught internationally compared to how we teach it here. 

[00:04:35] Kyle: Yeah, good question. I was also in France for a little while, but I was at INSEAD, so it was an English program, which luckily for me 'cause

[00:04:42] Kyle: my French is terrible. So that was, I had enough trouble just getting groceries. I wouldn't want to teach in French, but there's small differences regionally for sure. Like I would say both Ireland and France, you get some of that European flavour. There's a different perspective on the world, certainly geopolitically, and Australia too, a little bit more of a Commonwealth and maybe Asian influences there.

[00:05:05] Kyle: But t the end of the day, whenever I taught marketing or taught people about marketing in any of these places, it just comes down to the same thing that we'd always talk about anywhere is, you need to understand your customer and then find some way to create some compelling value for them. And there's some, there's definitely some cultural pieces there that are different.

[00:05:23] Kyle: What might be compelling in Ireland is different than what's compelling in Canada some of the time. But at the core it's just trying to understand people. 

[00:05:30] Alison: That's a great reminder that as much as the world around us is different, as much as technology and other things are changing, how we market the basics are still mission critical.

[00:05:40] Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And I think we get challenged sometimes with changes in the world, whether it's tariff policies or new technologies, and it is easy to get caught up in those things because they're so important and they're so immediately critical. But we're still very much people-driven.

[00:05:57] Kyle: Commerce is still people-driven, it's relationship-driven. It's that understanding people, understanding customers, understanding clients, why they buy what they're buying, what's gonna motivate them, that's really universal, at least in the western world. Might be a little bit different if you get into the Middle East or Asia.

[00:06:13] Kyle: But in the Western world it, it's pretty much the same.

[00:06:17] Alison: Now after a very successful decade teaching at the Alberta School of Business, what attracted you to make the move to Waterloo last year? 

[00:06:24] Kyle: This is gonna be a bit of a biased a response, but really I'd known about the Lazaridis School for a while, the Bachelor of Business Administration Program,

[00:06:32] Kyle: the BBA program in particular, is truly one of the best in the world. They're global leaders here in undergraduate education and especially experiential education, and I thought this was really important. My view was the future of education in business, and, but maybe in other fields too is experiential.

[00:06:50] Kyle: It's more and more learning by doing, so we can adapt quickly. We learn some of those people skills that we need in organizations. Lazaridis is very good at that. So it's a big part of what attracted me. I have to say that some of it is also just timing. Both my daughters were at an age where they could be independent and that freed my wife and I up to consider making a move.

[00:07:11] Kyle: I also, I always liked Ontario and I like Southern Ontario and I've enjoyed being, close to Toronto, but also having the tech community around here in Waterloo, there's just I think a lot of exciting things going on. And when it comes to the students themselves, we have really strong demand for this program, but we're also really good at placing students.

[00:07:31] Kyle: And so if you're a Dean, it's nice to come to a place where, we had 12,000 people apply for 1500 spots last year. And when they graduate, we place 97% of them. So that is a foundation. Really makes my job a lot easier. And so that was a big part of why I was drawn here. 

[00:07:50] Alison: The proof points are incredibly compelling.

[00:07:52] Alison: That job placement rate, gotta be one of the best in the world, so congratulations for that. 

[00:07:56] Kyle: Yeah. And so just continue that plug maybe a little bit is, one of the things that, that I worry about, being in a university setting is youth unemployment in general has been creeping up. It's, somewhere north now, 15%, which is not good.

[00:08:09] Kyle: I mentioned I graduated in the nineties, it was 18 or 19% at the time. It, it can set a lot of people back in their careers. I think one of the things that's really great about business schools and our school in particular is at the end of the day, we are pretty good at getting people jobs.

[00:08:24] Kyle: We're fairly responsive to what industry wants and the talent that we develop. And yeah, 97, 98% get jobs and it's even higher in co-op, it's 99% plus. So  I think that's an important part of what we do. 

[00:08:36] Alison: I can see why you have the level of demand you have for the program too. 

[00:08:39] Kyle: Yeah. It doesn't hurt, right?

[00:08:40] Kyle: Ultimately students, they wanna learn, but they want to see the light at the end of the tunnel too, and parents as well. And so yeah, that really helps with demand. Of course. 

[00:08:49] Alison: Absolutely. So now that you're just over a year in Ontario, I'd love to hear what differences have you seen or what surprised you about Ontario's education system compared to Alberta's?

[00:09:01] Kyle: Yeah. Because I started my career in Ontario as a professor, I had a fairly good sense of how things were here. It certainly, it's a great place to be. I think close to Toronto, there's a lot of really interesting jobs for graduates. There's also enough good business schools, even great business schools, that it's very competitive, which makes us all a little bit better.

[00:09:21] Kyle: But the one thing that did surprise me that was different from when I was here, 15, 16 years ago, was grade inflation at the high school level. And some of that might be legitimate because students today are pretty impressive. But it means that something like 30% of the applications to university now, in Ontario, are from students that have an average in the nineties, and that makes it really difficult to select.

[00:09:46] Kyle: Who are the good students? I joke sometimes with our alumni who are senior executives, there's a whole bunch of CEOs with grades in the eighties, future CEOs with grades in the eighties that we're turning down. I'd love to be able to accept, but the grade inflation at the high school level in Ontario is high.

[00:10:02] Kyle: There's a high percentage of the class comes out with good grades. 

[00:10:06] Alison: Definitely is a surprise to me to hear that. And when I think about the number of friends I have who talk about their kids getting nineties, I've always thought there's no way I'd get into university today. 'cause I certainly didn't have a 96 or 97 average.

[00:10:20] Kyle: Yeah, I mean, when I was in high school, if there was somebody who had an average in the nineties, it was one kid and they were brilliant and working really hard. And a lot of really good students that were getting into university were in the eighties. I think one difference between Alberta and Ontario,

[00:10:37] Kyle: part of the reason grade inflation wasn't as severe in Alberta is because the province has a standardized set of exams. So in each of the major subjects, there's a provincial exam you have to take. Everybody takes it if they're gonna get through those courses, and it's worth quite a bit. When I took it, it was probably 50% of your grade.

[00:10:54] Kyle: I think now maybe it's 30% of your grade. And if you as a teacher have class grades that are really offside with your test grades, people are gonna ask questions and so that, that helps keep grade inflation down a little bit. Not entirely. There's still some, but I think it's, it helps a little.

[00:11:11] Alison: Now, I know you recently co-authored an article on the important role that business schools are playing in Ontario's economy so can you share with our listeners some of your thoughts on this? 

[00:11:19] Kyle: I'd mentioned already youth unemployment is at a fairly high level, 15, maybe 16% right now. And even in some really traditionally strong careers like software engineering, computing science, we're seeing jobs disappear.

[00:11:34] Kyle: Other places that have, are traditionally popular careers, medicine and law, they're hard to get into, but also there aren't that many jobs when you get out, so they have to be somewhat constrained. The reality is there's a lot of jobs in the business world, from accounting to finance, to marketing, to supply chain management.

[00:11:52] Kyle: And so that's what we really have been good at. We've placed 98 or percent or so of the students. And so part of what I was writing about, and I should say that the article was co-written with Detlev Zwick, who's the Dean at the Schulich School at York University. Part of what we were writing about is just, there's a lot of talk about the importance of STEM jobs and jobs in technology and healthcare, and those are important fields, but we probably don't talk enough about business, and I think

[00:12:21] Kyle: the opportunities in business are probably broader in scope than they are in healthcare or STEM. Just, you can work in technology, you can work in healthcare, you can work in almost any area of business or not-for-profit or government requires the kinds of skills that we teach. So part of, I think the argument that we were making is we just really need to give more attention to what business schools are doing and the success we're having in finding students jobs and starting companies.

[00:12:49] Kyle: And it, you know, encouraging people to go on to other things. Some go on to be lawyers, some go on to science careers. But I think those basic skills, whether it's reading a financial statement or putting together a marketing plan, are super valuable across a large range of careers. And so that's essentially what we are arguing is, don't forget about us.

[00:13:09] Kyle: We're working hard, doing a good job. Our students are very successful. We wanna make sure that, not so much for the schools themselves, but for students in high school or even other programs in university, thinking about where their careers can go. We can play a big part in that and in lots of different ways.

[00:13:25] Kyle: Not necessarily just an undergraduate degree or a traditional MBA, but all kinds of training. Even if what you need to learn is just a little bit about finance or a little bit about marketing. Those are the kinds of things that that we do, and we do them very well. 

[00:13:39] Alison: Now, building on that, there's no doubt that the marketing profession is undergoing absolutely tectonic shifts and Gen AI is a prime example, but certainly not the only example.

[00:13:49] Alison: So how are universities adapting to meet this challenge and really ensure that students are gonna graduate with the skills that they need, especially when those skills are evolving quickly? 

[00:13:59] Kyle: Yeah, that's a good question. That's one that we wrestle with all the time. I can tell you from my time as a professor and some of my colleagues, it was nice to teach a course that was more or less the same year to year for a couple of years.

[00:14:11] Kyle: When we first, you know e-commerce was first rising on the scene becoming an important part of marketing and social media was part of marketing. You could see professors sort of struggling to keep up with all the changes. Facebook's updating its algorithm all the time, and the details of how you'd actually implement something on those platforms was changing.

[00:14:30] Kyle: So I think that keeping up with the changes that have been going on in marketing or elsewhere is challenging. What we try to teach students is to be adaptable. I think experiential learning, having the opportunity to work in teams, to work with different types of technology, to try different things, to do some of those things under a little bit of pressure and a little bit of stress,

[00:14:51] Kyle: that's helpful, and that's where we put a lot of emphasis on experiential learning. I also think being digital from kind of day one right away, getting immersed in technology, encouraged to use those tools, having experience with it, which to be honest, you don't have to do with most students these days.

[00:15:06] Kyle: Most of them come to university with very strong technical skills, social media skills way beyond my own. They're, they've been doing it their whole lives, so they're pretty good at it. But then the other two things, which are fairly new to universities and new to business schools, but we do put a lot more emphasis on trying to make sure students are resilient and adaptable and have a good sense of how to manage their own wellbeing.

[00:15:31] Kyle: They have some of that empathy and emotional intelligence they're gonna need when they get into these roles. Those human skills, those are some of the things that I suspect will survive as being incredibly important, even as technology continues to improve. On the flip side, some of the technical skills might be decreasing a little over the next few years in value and see some of the things that Gen AI is already doing, some of the ability to automate certain tasks, whether it's writing or design or coding.

[00:16:01] Kyle: And so my perspective on that is we need to right away start teaching students to partner with that technology. We can't be afraid of it. We have to make sure we use it even though it can be scary. And there's certainly some challenges for universities and yeah, how do we make sure people aren't cheating?

[00:16:17] Kyle: How do we make sure our evaluation methods are testing students and not testing the machines? So there's, I don't wanna minimize the challenge in any way, but I think there's some things we can do and it really is around making sure we immerse people in technology right away, and we put a lot of focus on those human skills.

[00:16:36] Alison: Earlier in our conversation, we talked about the importance of basics, so while Gen AI and other innovations are certainly changing how we do it, understanding the basics continues to be important. And there are some people globally that think this might be a time where the four Ps of marketing might be redefined.

[00:16:56] Alison: What are your thoughts on that? 

[00:16:58] Kyle: Oh, that's a good question. My whole career people have talked about, you know, should we teach the four Ps? Should that really be at the core of marketing? I know 20 years ago, there were a few universities in the U.S. who moved entirely to a curriculum based on relationship marketing, kind of CRM driven systems, which maybe it makes a little less sense today than it did back then, but I think it is a tough question.

[00:17:23] Kyle: There's always going to be challenges to, how do we conceptualize broadly what marketers do? To me, that's what the four Ps are reasonably helpful with in an introductory class. You wanna think broadly about what marketers do, but I think it, it is hard to fit the importance of relationships into the four Ps and some aspects of what we can do now with technology don't fit in as well.

[00:17:46] Kyle: So I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of curriculums, we won't move away from that. We're still gonna teach some of the other classic models like the BCG matrix and those kinds of things, but we're probably gonna have to supplement that with a bit more of a nuanced focus as well. And that's gonna include things that are changing fast.

[00:18:06] Kyle: And again, that's a challenge for universities. We're not known for being really fast at adapting, but we're getting there, especially in business schools. You have to give a lot of credit to the faculty who are willing to put themselves out there and be a little uncomfortable and take some risks.

[00:18:21] Kyle: Maybe not everybody, but most faculty members are and that's good. Prior to say the, let's say the pandemic as kind of a turning point, but prior to that, the history of university teaching was chalkboards to overheads, to PowerPoint, but not a lot else changed. And then all of a sudden we're using all kinds of technology and we're faced with all kinds of new technologies that directly affect student learning.

[00:18:44] Kyle: I see that as an exciting time, but it's certainly a challenging time as well. 

[00:18:47] Alison: In many ways I think that there might be a fifth P of marketing building on what you're saying that's all around people. 

[00:18:53] Kyle: Yeah. And maybe that always should have been there. Already in our conversation, it's come up a few times how important it is to understand people and have good emotional intelligence and those kinds of softer skills.

[00:19:03] Kyle: I think that's always been important, but it's probably even more important today. So maybe, or maybe we need a different conceptual structure entirely. That'll be tough to do, okay, because we're all used to one. My view of it still is, it doesn't hurt to talk about the four Ps as a way of thinking about what marketers do, but it clearly is no longer a comprehensive, complete system for thinking about what marketers do.

[00:19:25] Kyle: So either, yeah, we have to adapt it. Maybe there's a, another P, some people use other acronyms. But at the end of the day, I think it still is going to come down to understanding your customers and creating value for them. And we can conceptualize that in a few different ways. 

[00:19:41] Alison: Now from an educational perspective, you're dealing with two competing challenges.

[00:19:45] Alison: You've got students using Gen AI for their work, which as you said earlier, you should encourage because that's part of today's reality. But that can make traditional evaluation difficult, and you also need to ensure that they're AI literate for their career. I know it's early days, but how are you navigating this paradox?

[00:20:01] Kyle: So the vast majority of students are actually super ethical and try really hard not to cross any lines. There's a small group that will, take advantage of every tool or opportunity they can to find an easier path. The real problem with Gen AI, you kind of summed it up exactly right, which is we really want them to learn how to use it because we want them to go out into the world with the skills to be able to apply these new tools to be more productive at the work they're going to be doing.

[00:20:29] Kyle: But those same tools really make things like a take home essay no longer feasible for us. Because I still think a good writer is better than what a Gen AI will write. The problem is the weaker writers, it will pull everybody up to that kind of, I don't know, C+, B-range. And it's really tempting if you're time-pressed to use it to solve a calculus problem or to answer a question

[00:20:54] Kyle: you might have in, I don't know, an HR class or to, do something creative even, or spur some creative ideas in a marketing presentation. So we have to walk a thin line between saying, look, we want you to use it, but ultimately we still wanna be able to evaluate what you're doing.

[00:21:12] Kyle: And we may see some, in some cases, reverting to an old style of evaluation, either oral exams or written exams in class with pencil and paper. And then in other cases, we may just say, yep, please. We expect you to use Gen AI. Just tell us how, show us the prompts you used. Show us the method you used to go through it and build that kind of thing into the assignments.

[00:21:35] Kyle: Right now it's pretty manageable. I'm not super concerned about today's technology. I'm a little more concerned about technology 10 years from now. And I think it really means we have to change the way we evaluate students. Some of the classic evaluation tools of take home exams or projects or spreadsheets, all those things.

[00:21:55] Kyle: Now you can get a lot of help, if not have the assignment done by the machine. It's, yeah it's gonna be at the centre of what we talk about at universities for at least a decade. 

[00:22:06] Alison: I think that's also gonna be at the centre of what we talk about in business and marketing for years to come as well.

[00:22:11] Alison: So we, in many ways, we'll be figuring it out together. 

[00:22:14] Kyle: Yeah. And so my perspective on that is because that's true, because you're gonna need these skills in business and marketing. If we have to err, I'd prefer that we err on the side of our evaluations aren't quite right, rather than saying, we're just not gonna use it, we're gonna try and block it and shut it down and, make it illegal to use these tools at the university.

[00:22:36] Kyle: I think that would be the wrong way to go. So we'll figure out the evaluation, but we'll make sure that we integrate the tools into the way we're teaching. 

[00:22:44] Alison: Understanding Gen AI and how to use it is gonna be mission critical for any of your graduates, for anyone in business today. So that, that definitely feels like the right approach.

[00:22:54] Kyle: Yeah, I think it, there's a lot of, there's a lot of analogies, but it'll be a little like when Excel first comes out or spreadsheets first come out saying, don't use that. It makes it too easy to solve equations. We want you to write it out by hand. And I actually have had, I've had this discussion with a stats professor, not at the current, in my current institution, but elsewhere where they really wanted, they're stats professors, they spent their whole life doing, detailed statistics and the math behind it.

[00:23:22] Kyle: And they really wanted to teach executive MBAs how to do regression by hand. And I was saying to them, no executive MBAs are ever gonna do a regression by hand. Sure, it's helpful to understand the output and how you can make use of that, but they're probably not even gonna run it at a computer so that at least you should teach them how to do it with some software.

[00:23:39] Kyle: But probably you should really focus on how do you get insight from those results and from the output from a regression or whatever the technique might be rather than teaching them do it by hand. And it took a couple years to make that change and eventually we made that change. So yeah, it is important to be able to use the tools.

[00:23:55] Kyle: I don't think we wanna say, spreadsheets make it too easy 30 years ago, anymore than we wanna say Gen AI makes it too easy today because the rest of the world wants it to be easy. They want people to be more productive, they want them to do more in less time. And so yeah, we have to integrate that.

[00:24:11] Kyle: But yeah it's, it'll be an interesting challenge and. I think we'll see some really exciting leaps forward in what students can do in the same amount of time because they have these tools. 

[00:24:20] Alison: When we first met, I was talking about how I probably wouldn't get into college today given how sophisticated and smart students are, and you just described them as literally being better at everything.

[00:24:31] Alison: What do you think contributed to the level of excellence that we're seeing in today's students? 

[00:24:35] Kyle: Yeah, it's a good question. I tend to see students when they get to the end of a competition, so at the end of a case competition or a brand challenge or a hackathon. So I see the finalists. If we have 300 teams, I see the last six.

[00:24:49] Kyle: So it's, it's a biased view. Or I see this weekend we'll have a, an orientation day and I'll see all the presidents of the student clubs up presenting about their clubs. So I tend to see students who've gone through the gauntlet and have already been tested. But I tell anybody, if you really wanna see

[00:25:08] Kyle: how bright the future is, just come and watch one of these competitions or challenges or spend some time talking to one of our students, and they're so impressive. So yeah, when I say better at everything they're really for the most part, very well-rounded. They're strong quantitatively cause they had to be to get into the program and we have a fairly rigorous program.

[00:25:27] Kyle: What really impresses me is the communication skills, the ability to present and explain ideas and the confidence with which they did that. As most undergraduates, when I was an undergraduate, they went out of their way to not make eye contact with the professors so they wouldn't get called on and not have to answer a question.

[00:25:44] Kyle: Try and avoid presenting in front of the class if you could. And our students, for the most part, not everybody, but for the most part, are eager to do that. They're really good at it. And I think some of that certainly goes to their preparation before they get to university. So at the high school level and earlier, they have more opportunities to do these things and they're encouraged and supported.

[00:26:03] Kyle: It's less competitive. We were worried about standing up in front of the class because you stood up in front of class and said something you shouldn't have you'd probably would hear about it for the rest of your high school life. Where I think students today as a group, are much more supportive.

[00:26:16] Kyle: It's easier to take risks, it's easier to learn 'cause your peers are going to be supporting you through that process. But they also have more exposure to technology earlier, teachers are better. It's like sports. If you watch an old hockey game from the 1960s or seventies, it doesn't really compare to the way we play hockey today.

[00:26:35] Kyle: And it's not that people changed a lot, it's just the training is better, the coaching is better, people are more intense about what they're doing. And yeah it really makes universities fun because business schools like ours, we have all these really bright, excited and exciting students who are really engaged.

[00:26:53] Kyle: Yeah it's hard not to be optimistic about the future when you spend time around them. 

[00:26:58] Alison: Absolutely. We have the CMA NXT program, which is in partnership with RBC and it's on college campuses across the country, including yours. And to your point, when we bring those communities together, we're there to educate them on marketing, to give them access to the CMA and

[00:27:14] Alison: marketing communities and we have virtual talent nights, and every time that I'm joining one of those sessions and listening to the students from across the country and Laurier, it is so inspiring to hear and it absolutely leaves me knowing that our profession and our country are in very good hands and for the future leaders.

[00:27:34] Alison: So it's encouraging that you're seeing that to an even deeper level in the role that you have? 

[00:27:40] Kyle: Yeah I certainly think so. And if anybody, sometimes people will ask me that question, you know, I've read about this generation being bad at this, or, this generation is flaky on that.

[00:27:50] Kyle: And they'll say, yeah, it's probably always been the case. There's, generations are a lot of different people, so there's some people that are, flaky and some people that aren't that engaged, but I think if you go to any of the great business schools in Ontario, you're gonna see a cohort of students that are exceptionally engaged and bright and confident.

[00:28:10] Kyle: And it's also fair to say they still lack experience and context and they haven't spent a lot of time yet in full-time work. So they have a lot to learn, but in terms of their ability, what they're capable of, yeah, it's impressive and it makes my job a lot of fun. I enjoy days like today where I get to meet students and talk to them and get to know them a little bit,

[00:28:33] Kyle: 'cause they're great people. 

[00:28:36] Alison: So when you think about the marketing leaders that are gonna be hiring your graduates, what advice do you have for how we can continue to nurture the marketing graduates in their first roles where they've got amazing potential, good skills, but it will be for many of them their first job.

[00:28:54] Kyle: Yeah. And so what, when I say these students coming in are fantastic and better than ever, it's true. They're even better when they go out and they're even better, they'll be even better 10 years from now, especially if they can get into organizations that do those things, that mentor them, that spend time with them, that, that put in the effort to help them grow into the roles.

[00:29:14] Kyle: I do think that one of the things that's easy to forget is because they're so talented, it's easy to forget that they still don't have much experience with the world. They've traveled more than I would've at that age, and they, the internet exposes them to a lot of different ideas and things

[00:29:29] Kyle: than most of us would've when we were that age, but they haven't done the nine to five, or eight to seven or whatever it is, workday for, months or years on end. And so they have a lot to learn in terms of how do you shift from being a student to not being a student and having a full-time job.

[00:29:49] Kyle: So I think that's easy to overlook because they seem so competent right away. But they've never done it before and they're fast learners and they're adaptable, but it'll take them a few months just to adapt to what work life is like. You don't, being a student, you have a lot of demands, but you also have a lot of flexibility. When you start your day, when you study, when you work on things.

[00:30:11] Kyle: And I think most of us can relate if we can remember back to our first serious job. It's a little bit shocking to be, oh, every day I have to get there at the same time and do the same things? And I think it's easy to forget how hard that is because the students seem so capable, but they're still figuring their lives out.

[00:30:28] Kyle: They know they want to contribute to the world, and I'm confident they're gonna contribute to the world, but it's not clear yet exactly how, and they're gonna change their minds and probably change their careers a few times in their twenties. So they need mentorship. They need flexibility. I think it's great when organizations can build a model that sort of says, we'd love you to spend your whole career here, but we recognize you might not.

[00:30:51] Kyle: And we're also happy to have really strong alumni out of our organization elsewhere in the world for years to come. And that's not easy for some places because they invest a lot in their new grads and their new hires. But yeah, you, I think the biggest thing beyond all the talent is, they still have a lot to learn about how to function in outside of the student world.

[00:31:13] Alison: Those are great reminders. We've all been in, in the work world for a long time. And you do forget how jarring it can be when you first join. 

[00:31:21] Kyle: Yeah. And it's some of the little things like little cultural things that we take for granted that are new to them. Like how do you be personable in a work environment?

[00:31:29] Kyle: How do build relationships there? It's not like it is in university. It's not like the friends you had in high school, it's a more professional setting. All those little things that we've forgotten that we learned, they still haven't learned. And we try to teach some of them but a lot of that it's gonna come on the job. 

[00:31:46] Alison: Kyle, I end each episode of asking our guests to share one piece of advice for our listeners who aspire to executive roles in marketing.

[00:31:53] Alison: Now given you have a very unique perspective on the marketing profession and a direct line to the future marketing leaders, I'm really excited to hear your advice. 

[00:32:00] Kyle: If I have to pick one piece of advice, and there's an obvious bias here, but given how fast the world is changing, I think we have to embrace being forever students. Constant learners. because there was a time where at least we believed you could get a undergraduate degree,

[00:32:19] Kyle: that was the end of education. You work 40 years, you retire, it's all good. I just think now we have to, not necessarily a formal education, you don't have to go to university, but you have to be open to learning constantly. I think marketing, that's probably the case and that a lot of people that go into marketing like change.

[00:32:36] Kyle: They like to be creative, they like new things and so they're pretty good at adapting. But as we all know, that's not the case of a lot of organizations, not the case in my organization. You get comfortable, things get slow to change and you're not as willing to learn new things. I think being that forever student, probably the most important thing going forward is we face an uncertain and rapidly evolving world.

[00:32:59] Alison: That is absolutely mission critical advice. Keeping the curiosity and that learner mindset is, I think to your point, important in any business, even more important in marketing, because we tend to be on the forefront of change whether it's consumer technology or marketplace, we tend to be the first to be impacted and the first that really need to understand it.

[00:33:20] Kyle: Yeah. And leaders culturally in a lot of ways and leaders in work. So if I can cheat your question and throw in a second answer, and this relates to the other things I've been saying, but I, if you can find people you like to work with and colleagues and mentors who are not just people you respect, but people that you enjoy being around,

[00:33:39] Kyle: I think that makes your career much more fun. It's gonna be a lot more enjoyable. You're gonna be happy to go to work, and if you can find that kind of place, then the leadership part of it takes care of itself. But it's really great to have people around you. And you should seek them out, and not just hope it happens that way,

[00:33:58] Kyle: but seek out those people that kind of elevate you and help embrace your, the growth of your career, and you can do the same for them. I think that people side, the relationship side, is something that's easy to forget in your career as you focus on technical things or technological change. But yeah,

[00:34:13] Kyle: my second piece of advice other than learning all the time is find people that you can work with and learn with and grow with. 

[00:34:20] Alison: You can definitely cheat that. That was a great second piece of advice. Kyle. Thank you, and it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you today. I know you're incredibly busy with the school term and I really appreciate you making time for the CMA and our listeners and providing such great insights.

[00:34:36] Kyle: Oh, it was a lot of fun. Happy to do it and I really appreciate you having me on.

[00:34:45] Presenter: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the cma.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Marketers have a lot to lose. With complaints surging, mistakes can lead to hefty fines while playing it safe can limit innovation and creativity. So what can they do? CMA CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Steven Harroun, Vice President, Compliance and Enforcement at the CRTC to see where the complaints are coming from, and share the strategies marketers use to stay both competitive and compliant.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:28:05
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:28:07 - 00:01:00:20
Alison
It's my pleasure to welcome Steven Harroun, a regulatory leader whose expertise sits at the critical intersection of marketing compliance and consumer protection in Canada's digital landscape. As a Vice President, Compliance and Enforcement at the CRTC, Steven oversees the enforcement of laws and regulations that directly impact how Canadian marketers operate, including CASL, Canada Anti-Spam Legislation and the Unsolicited Telecommunication Rules, including the National Do Not Call list, which both shape the daily practices of marketing professionals in Canada.

00:01:00:22 - 00:01:34:13
Alison
While Steven's primary role focuses on regulatory enforcement, his unique position makes him an invaluable voice for marketers navigating Canada's complex compliance landscape. Steven and his team are highly valuable partners to the CMA. He has written articles for us addressing the practical challenges that marketers face when contacting Canadian consumers, while ensuring they're staying compliant with federal regulations. Steven's recent article "From CASL to unsolicited calls: Insights for marketers", really demonstrates his commitment to helping marketing professionals understand and adapt to evolving regulatory requirements.

00:01:34:15 - 00:01:59:06
Alison
Steven brings over two decades of experience in telecommunications policy and regulation, having joined the CRTC in 2002 after working at the Canada Revenue Agency and in the private sector. Through his work, Steven has developed international partnerships with regulators worldwide, creating memoranda of Understanding that help enforce Canadian marketing laws across borders, which is a critical capability in today's global digital marketing environment.

00:01:59:08 - 00:02:05:03
Alison
Steven, thanks so much for joining me today. I'm really looking forward to an engaging and insightful conversation.

00:02:05:05 - 00:02:21:22
Steven
Thank you Alison. That's probably too kind of an introduction, but I appreciate it. And I truly appreciate the invitation. Like, engagements like this are like one of the favourite parts of my role in the organization. And, if I could do one of these every day, I would. So, no, I look forward to the discussion.

00:02:21:23 - 00:02:42:23
Alison
Thank you. Now, Steven, the CMA and the CRTC have a long- standing, very collaborative relationship, from coauthoring thought leadership to working on key consumer choice initiatives. Building on that foundation of shared understanding, what do you see as the most important evolution in the dialog between regulators and the marketing community over the past few years?

00:02:43:01 - 00:03:14:12
Steven
Yeah, I, let me start with something probably your members already know. But the CRTC, you know, we're an independent quasi judicial administrative tribunal, right? So we regulate communications in Canada in the public interest. We hold public consultations on like telecommunications and broadcasting matters, and we make decisions based on a public record. Now, if you turn to my role at the CRTC, which is a little bit unique, and it is unique to kind of have an enforcement arm embedded within the communications regulator, and I was gonna  say perhaps I'll get to tell you later about the advantages of that.

00:03:14:14 - 00:03:33:17
Steven
But, you know, I am responsible and accountable for promoting compliance, as you said, with Canada's anti=spam  legislation in which we affectionately call CASL. And if you actually went to look at the real name of that legislation it's about 42 words long, so CASL works really well, as well as the unsolicited telecommunications roles, which includes our national Do Not Call list.

00:03:33:17 - 00:03:50:09
Steven
Right. So that's which is kind of probably a key piece, you know, for your members here. I'm super proud, and I, you know, I started this by saying, I appreciate the invitation, but I'm, I'm super proud of kind of the relationship that we have with industry and specifically the CMA, because I feel like it's very longstanding for me, which is great.

00:03:50:09 - 00:04:09:16
Steven
I think one of my first engagements when I stepped into this chair a few years ago was with the CMA. So I'm glad we've been able to continue this discussion, because educating on compliance, ensuring that marketers understand their obligations, take that bigger, just ensuring that all kind of legitimate companies in Canada understand the rules of the road, if you will.

00:04:09:18 - 00:04:34:05
Steven
That's key to the success rate. Compliance is key to my success. So at the end of the day, if the more and more outreach activities like this that we do and you're right, we've done vlogs, we're doing this, you know, maybe next year I'll get to do some in-person thing with you guys, perhaps something that's, on the radar. But it's actually these collaborations and these unique opportunities where I get to kind of, you know, talk about, well, this is the world as I see it today.

00:04:34:10 - 00:04:57:18
Steven
You know, and kind of the premise of your question was exactly that, like today. So I look back and I look back and, you know, I look back ten years and go, the things that we were seeing then and the complaints that we were seeing then from Canadians and the environment in which we're operating, we're very much focused on telemarketing and people getting calls and people, you know, I was going to say deciding whether or not they wanted to get calls right? 

00:04:57:19 - 00:05:20:06
Steven
Now, ironically, you know, it's ten years since CASL came into force this year, just in July. So that dialog has changed, right? Even over, even with your organization over the past decade, that dialog has changed. We are now talking about not just about calls. We are now talking about emails, and we're talking about SMS and we're talking about other digital platforms, perhaps that we hadn't even contemplated the early days of CASL.

00:05:20:11 - 00:05:41:00
Steven
Right? We were talking about will you agree to get my email that's exploded kind of exponentially, even just from that, from that side of the house. So I think that's interesting to me, and I think that's fascinating as far as a landscape perspective goes, the legislation on the telemarketing side is 20 years old. You know, the even on CASL now, it's actually hard to believe for me to say that that's ten years old.

00:05:41:02 - 00:06:01:11
Steven
But the environment in which we, you know, we ensure compliance within those regimes has just changed dramatically. And I look at, from my organization and if I look at kind of how we're trying to approach that. We, and I'm sure and I'm sure we'll get into this discussion, like your members have had to totally change things up completely. Like we, in the last ten years

00:06:01:11 - 00:06:17:17
Steven
I built up a technical forensics team, you know, and I, you know, and I have a whole group of people now who, who slice and dice all the intelligence that we receive. But, you know, then we also have to look at when we're doing major investigations, we have to look at people's devices. And we have to understand, I was going to say, I'm no engineer, right?

00:06:17:17 - 00:06:35:02
Steven
I'm really lucky, or a techie engineer. I'm really lucky that I get to lead a really great team of really cool, really technical people. But they can look at all this coding and they can look, you know, behind the screen and they can tell me like, oh, this is happening and this is where this is and this, which, which fascinates me.

00:06:35:02 - 00:06:53:18
Steven
And if you told me ten years ago I'd lead a team of forensics experts, I would have, I would have said, I must be changing jobs, but I'm not, because that's just how much the environment has changed which I think it's really cool. But then I, you know, if I go to where your members are sitting and the things that they need to do, it isn't just calling Canadians about something, right?

00:06:53:18 - 00:07:09:19
Steven
It's how are we reaching Canadians on so many different levels in so many different platforms? And most importantly for me, because I go back to my compliance roots, is how are we respecting Canadians' choices? Like how are we respect, like this is how I want to be engaged, and this is how often I want to be engaged. And you know what?

00:07:09:22 - 00:07:26:11
Steven
I don't want to be engaged anymore. Right? Like that's the other side of that. So I, you know, it's easy for me to sit here as, you know, the Vice President of Compliance and Enforcement and say, do this, do this, do this and respect this, respect this, respect this. But I also, I understand, I was gonna say I worked in private sector at the early start in my career.

00:07:26:11 - 00:07:45:16
Steven
Actually, I understand the other side of that where it's like, okay, but we want to push all the levers we can, obviously, to get our message out. So that, to me, that the technological space and how much things have evolved in our conversations over the ten years is really fascinating to me. And I'll be honest, what keeps my team up at night is actually the more nefarious actors in this space, right?

00:07:45:16 - 00:08:08:06
Steven
Because with all this technological advancement and all this, these different ways to engage Canadians, and if you will, all the ways to kind of run around the year, move around the legitimate ways of doing business, I now have, we now have, it's not just me. We now have Canadians who are fearful to answer the phone, don't know whether to click on a link, don't know whether this is coming from Company X or not.

00:08:08:07 - 00:08:24:05
Steven
It's, I think it's creating such a challenging perspective. And I think it's really hard, as me, like as a regulator and my, my ultimate goal is just to stay ahead of all that. I would never consider the fact that we're leading edge, but if I can stay close to that edge to understand where things are going and try and keep ahead of it.

00:08:24:07 - 00:08:39:06
Steven
If you've heard me speak before, I often, you know, I often say, I want to, I want to disrupt the activities of the bad actors. And then on the other side, after I've done that, I want to hire them, because they're so savvy and they're so technical experts and they're so nimble. And I feel like, oh, have I got a job for you.

00:08:39:06 - 00:08:59:16
Steven
Like, if you will, use your powers for good as opposed to other ulterior motives. But, you know, I think the biggest challenge we have is just keeping pace with innovation. But I think, you know, for me, it's how do I give the best advice possible? How do I ensure that our perspective on compliance remains relevant for the activities that your members want to pursue?

00:08:59:18 - 00:09:37:01
Alison
And Steven, it's so helpful to have someone in your role who does have the private sector experience as well as deep, robust public sector experience, and really can understand the importance of both of those stakeholders. And then to your point, where there's so much evolving in our profession from a technology perspective, from a broader marketplace perspective. So our ongoing collaboration to ensure that we are acting in the best interests of Canadian consumers and also ensuring that businesses and brands can continue to grow and thrive, drive our economy.

00:09:37:03 - 00:09:59:09
Alison
That's a very important goal that we are both very united on. So your role gives you a really unique and very valuable view into the concerns that Canadians have about advertising and marketing. And I know our listeners will be very interested to hear what are the top issues and complaints that the CRTC has received from Canadian consumers over the last 12 months?

00:09:59:11 - 00:10:16:16
Steven
Yeah, it's interesting and kind of a piece from the previous question about how the environment has changed, the complaints of Canadians have changed as well. I know kind of where we're headed over the next few months just by what I've seen the last few months, and we're seeing that real surge in complaints just related to kind of unwanted digital communications.

00:10:16:16 - 00:10:29:08
Steven
And I'll even go past the email and I was going to say, my son will tell me, email is so paste, you're like, you know, you need to be on Instagram and you need to be on Snapchat. You need to be on all these other things, and folks are taking advantage of that, which is good, as a good, strong marketer should.

00:10:29:10 - 00:10:46:16
Steven
But then I go to the other side about engaging those people properly is really important. And I'm fascinated, my 6 or 7 years sitting in this chair, that the number one complaint at the end of the day remains the same, which is always about consent. And it remains, you know, like a) they're not supposed to call me, I'm on the Do Not Call list.

00:10:46:18 - 00:11:03:02
Steven
B) I've never consented to receive this email. C) Yes, I said they could e-mail me. I didn't realize it was going to be 80 times a day because a sale is about to end. Like those types of things, right? So I'm fascinated that even in this day and age, it really is about that. Consent, consent, consent, when we're talking legitimate.

00:11:03:02 - 00:11:26:21
Steven
And let's be, let me be clear on that. You know, from legitimate communications, the number one complaint remains consent. And we can get into that a little bit later. But then there's also the frustration which I expressed to you earlier, just on the more nefarious actors. Right? So now people don't know if it really is the Netflix, you know, email or the network's text message saying, oh, we couldn't process your payment or, you know, people don't know if it's like really their financial institution.

00:11:27:02 - 00:11:48:06
Steven
We, at the Government of Canada face lots of impersonation, which is challenging, right? Because all of these scams, if you will, are really targeted to just get financial information, get personal information to do more nefarious activities behind the scenes. Right? So I often talk about how I'm going to address that with consumers. Right? How I'm going to deal with that with Canadians.

00:11:48:06 - 00:12:08:04
Steven
And we operate under a civil regulatory regime. Right? So and that's kind of that's kind of important to understand, because I can ensure compliance with all the legitimate companies in Canada. And I would suggest that I probably have 95% plus compliance, because legitimate companies just need to know the rules and how to comply with the rules, because they're very familiar that there are rules to follow.

00:12:08:06 - 00:12:37:09
Steven
There's some of the things we're talking about here, about government impersonation or brand impersonation, those types of things, like those are for the most part, criminal in nature. They're the only, the only goal in that communication to a Canadian is to steal information. Financial, personal whatever. So it's fascinating. I've got a really cool tech forensics team which can help me understand all that, and slice and dice all that, and understand, are we talking legitimate companies perhaps doing something inappropriate or not compliant with whatever piece of legislation we're talking about, or the other side of that

00:12:37:09 - 00:12:58:12
Steven
is, or are they really just illegitimate companies trying to do illegitimate things and inappropriate things? I'm super lucky. I'm constrained by a civil regulatory regime. Fair. But I have lots of other levers I can pull, right? I'm embedded within a telecommunications regulator. So the way the Telecom Act is structured in Canada, I can impose certain conditions on TSPs, and I can ask them to do certain things.

00:12:58:16 - 00:13:22:10
Steven
You know, they can't willingly, if you will, disrupt traffic, whether that's telephony traffic or whether that's, you know, email traffic or SMS traffic, they have to push it through. They have to pass it through. Just if you will, a pipe, that's where the traffic flows. As the regulator, I can say, oh, but wait a minute, we have evidence to suggest that this type of activity with this type of technical background, all that stuff behind it, is actually fraudulent.

00:13:22:12 - 00:13:47:07
Steven
And, for me, to protect Canadians in this space, because ultimately Canadians don't actually care if I have a civil powers or criminal powers or whatever. They just want the calls to stop. They want the emails to start, they want the text messages to stop that are potentially going to try and take their information. So I'm able to kind of leverage some regulatory policy tools to say, okay, TSPs, if you see this activity, I suggest you don't pass that on to Canadians.

00:13:47:11 - 00:14:06:19
Steven
And we've had some really great success on both the telephony side. And we're working on the CASL side of the house as far as like where we can stop traffic that we know is truly illegitimate. So a) that protects Canadians because the phone never rings, the email never lands in their inbox, the text message never arrives that says, oh, update your information and maybe you don't.

00:14:06:21 - 00:14:28:11
Steven
Or you do, unknowingly and unsuspecting anything you know untoward, but b) it actually helps the legitimate companies establish themselves as trusted brands, right? Because if you don't have all the, if you will, the the noise around it, trusted brands, trusted marketers, trusted organizations can get their message clearly to Canadians, and Canadians can trust what they're receiving.

00:14:28:11 - 00:14:50:21
Steven
So yeah. So so for me it's it's the complexity has changed of complaints. It's no longer about they shouldn't be calling me. The other side of that is, the Canadians' complaints are becoming much more sophisticated. Right?People are now aware of their personal information rights, their privacy rights. So Canadians are much more sophisticated as well in how they're engaging with the regulator. And they're saying, wait a minute, the like, they're not allowed to do this or they shouldn't do this.

00:14:50:21 - 00:15:15:01
Steven
And, you know, those types of things. So I appreciate the sophistication of the complaints that I receive. I appreciate them pointing me to all types of, of, of activities going on in this space. And we try, bit by bit, whether it's through civil to regulatory policy, even just through educating Canadians. You know, I, you know, I do this for, you know, these compliance things across all kinds of different organizations and industries like this.

00:15:15:01 - 00:15:28:17
Steven
But I also, you know, place a huge effort on how do I educate Canadians in this space, because if I can't stop some of those activities, it really does come down to, the more Canadians are aware, the more they're educated, the less likely they are to fall victim.

00:15:28:19 - 00:15:44:17
Alison
The CMA is very proud to manage the Do Not Mail service, which is a cornerstone of consumer choice in the physical marketing world. From the CRTC's perspective, how valuable are these kinds of industry-led self-regulatory models? You know, complementing the work that you're doing in your mandate?

00:15:44:19 - 00:16:03:08
Steven
It's amazing, my answer is, I love it, I love it, I love it. So how's that, as, as, as the regulator and as the person accountable in this organization for trying to respect Canadians' choices, I love initiatives like this. It's been around a long time, which is which is fantastic. And now I need to figure out how do I permeate that through everything.

00:16:03:08 - 00:16:25:01
Steven
Right? And we need a Do Not Text list and we need a Do Not  kinds of lists. But I also want to make it easier for Canadians. So that's you know, that's the other side of that piece. Compliance activities, they take a lot of time, but they're worth it, right, at the end of the day. And this is the best part of my job as far as, you know, just educating industry, educating consumers, educating Canadians. Enforcement, which, you know, at the end of the day, I enforce when necessary.

00:16:25:01 - 00:16:42:22
Steven
Right? There are folks who don't follow the rules. Sometimes they didn't know there were rules. Sometimes they just, you know, don't like the rules, so they don't abide by them. But enforcement activities take time, right? They take time. They take resources. I often say I could have the entire CRTC working on anti-spam and telemarketing cases, right? Across the two regimes

00:16:42:22 - 00:17:04:05
Steven
I get about 6000 complaints a week. My teams have to be strategic on the cases that we select, you know, with a huge focus kind of on, like, where's the biggest bang for our buck, and where is it impacting Canadians the most? Those types of things, and our strategic assessments on the types of cases that we pursue through an enforcement, which can take several months, even over a year, to make sure we have that kind of fulsome case.

00:17:04:07 - 00:17:25:22
Steven
But things like this, like this, if you will, the self-regulation or co-regulation model or even permissive model is really fantastic. And, you know, I talked earlier just about kind of my regulatory policy and tools that I can use. And and I have a really great case from the pandemic, when there was like huge telemarketing scams going on because everybody was home and all of a sudden answering their phone. And they needed, I was going to say, I feel like they needed someone to talk to.

00:17:25:22 - 00:17:49:14
Steven
Right? So they are actually willing to pick up the phone and maybe who knows who they were talking to. But during the pandemic, there was this huge scam going on and in the telephony space. And Bell Canada came to us at the time and they said, oh, like we think we've, if you will, analyzed it so narrowly that we can stop these calls if you give us permission. Back to as a quasi-judicial administrative tribunal,

00:17:49:16 - 00:18:12:11
Steven
you know, we put that out there in the public. And we said, you know what? A major TSP wants to do this. Are there any concerns? Of course there are concerns, right? At the end of the day, it can take personal rights, freedoms. Why are you stopping my traffic? Why are you doing all that? But we built all the safe parts into, if you will, the model that they wanted to present and how they wanted to stop that traffic, things like false positives and how do they rectify that, and how do we ensure that they're doing the right thing?

00:18:12:11 - 00:18:32:03
Steven
And can we make them report so that we know what they're doing, right? Full transparency. And, you know, as a regulator where we're all for, you know, 1,000% transparency on what it is we're doing, especially if we're affecting Canadians traffic, whether that be email or telephony. So they've used AI with, you know, kind of a human verification component to look at this particular piece of traffic.

00:18:32:04 - 00:18:58:01
Steven
And since 2021, I think they've stopped like 6 billion calls. You know, they're averaging like 1 billion calls a year. Those are calls that never reached Canadians. Those phones have never rang. They have never been subject to that scam. And I would suggest over 6 billion calls, I think there's been two false positives. So that just goes to show that even just the regulatory process, like that works. It still remains

00:18:58:01 - 00:19:19:12
Steven
just such a tremendous success. So, you know, so that idea you know, that's sort of in my mind similar to that kind of, you know, co-regulation, self-regulation. Let us do this, let this permissive type of thing. So I'm always encouraging folks, especially when I'm talking to kind of the industry folks, is, if you've got any really good ideas and you think you know how you can address this particular problem, definitely come see me.

00:19:19:14 - 00:19:41:18
Alison
That's great. In many ways, it sounds like this collaborative model can really help serve as a blueprint for future challenges, so it will benefit everyone involved. 

Steven
Absolutely.

Alison
Now Steven, you've touched on this a bit, but to help our members align even more closely with CRTC's approach. could you give us a bit of a look behind the curtain at the philosophy that guides your enforcement strategy?

00:19:41:20 - 00:20:04:00
Steven
I always say there's a reason I'm a Vice President of Compliance and Enforcement. There's a reason Compliance comes first in my title, because ultimately that's our goal. I have pieces of legislation which I need to ensure compliance. Obviously, part of compliance is actually enforcement, right? And enforcement is just a tool that we use under compliance. And we've kind of, feel like we've really kind of expanded that model as far as the compliance model goes.

00:20:04:00 - 00:20:20:01
Steven
So a) I talked about regulatory policy. There are lots of tools and levers that I can pull on the regulatory policy side, to deal with some of the things that I actually can't enforce. And I go back to, you know, I'm a civil regime, so I'm restricted, but I can use some policy measures to stop some of those more nefarious activities.

00:20:20:01 - 00:20:42:01
Steven
I'm always about, what is impacting Canadians the most? Someone recently asked, what keeps you up at night? And I'll be perfectly honest, it's actually that I haven't done enough for Canadians. We all hear stories, like every day in the news about how Canadians have been defrauded or scammed or whatever. And even though, you know, I may have limited powers, that's what keeps me up at night.

00:20:42:01 - 00:21:03:14
Steven
And, you know, and I often say, you know, in Canada we have, March is Fraud Prevention Month and October is Cybersecurity Awareness Month. And and I say, I love these months for all the wrong reasons, because, you know, national news outlets or whatever, they go and find all the horrible stories and they're horrible. People who lose their life savings, people who fall victim to a scam.

00:21:03:14 - 00:21:20:05
Steven 
People have lost their homes or, everything. They are all horrible. But I appreciate it from, the more Canadians are aware, the less likely they are to fall victim. There are certain things that keep me up in the night about protecting Canadians, because ultimately that's our goal in this space, and that should be, the members of the CMA,

00:21:20:05 - 00:21:44:05
Steven
that should be their goal as well. Right? It goes back to trusted brand and it goes back to respectful communication, and it goes back to those types of things and engaging the consumer when they want to be engaged and not engaging them when they're not. But from an enforcement strategy, we've really tried to take an expanded approach on things like this, things on how we engage Canadians, and then enforce, where necessary, but being innovative there as well.

00:21:44:07 - 00:22:03:02
Steven
From alternative case resolution. I've mentioned that a full-on enforcement case can take many, many months, up to two years in some cases, if they're, you know, if they're a little more technically involved. But alternative case resolution is really like, oh, we see a problem with a legitimate player. We kind of package that up and say, okay, this is what we're seeing.

00:22:03:02 - 00:22:22:10
Steven
We should have a discussion and land somewhere where we quickly get to a resolution. A really good example of that from an ACR perspective, maybe not from a society perspective. But last year we did an enforcement action with Hudson's Bay, which really was, we were receiving a plethora of complaints, like so many complaints, that we're like, okay, there's something wrong here.

00:22:22:10 - 00:22:41:13
Steven
Someone's pushed the wrong button, someone's done something wrong that we're seeing so many complaints. So, you know, my folks kind of, if you will, put together a very kind of quick case, like, this is what we're seeing. This is the consistency in the complaints. We've tested these particular pieces, uncharacteristically, but more in line with alternative case resolution,

00:22:41:14 - 00:22:58:14
Steven
we actually reached out to the Bay. We said, okay, we think we see a really big problem here. Maybe it's something that you're not seeing. Maybe it's something that you're not aware of. Maybe you've changed providers on doing a particular activity or something. But we see a huge problem here. Hudson Bay - amazing. Happy to come to the table.

00:22:58:14 - 00:23:18:13
Steven
Happy to discuss. Happy to go back into their organization going, okay, like we've got to figure this out and kind of came back and said, you know what? We were wrong. Like, we were wrong. Our unsubscribe wasn't working. We were not respecting the ten day deadline. It wasn't easy, you know, for folks. So it really did focus a lot on that unsubscribe piece, which is really like people saying, I don't want to hear from you anymore.

00:23:18:13 - 00:23:42:14
Steven
And, you know, and that hurts when someone wants to break up with you, but you have to respect their choice. And, and you know, and that's the case. But, but in that scenario, within six months, which is short from an investigation standpoint, we were able to gather all the evidence, come up with an assessment, talk to the party involved and come to a resolution which was then putting in a compliance program to make sure you know, that type of issue didn't happen again, documenting those practices.

00:23:42:16 - 00:24:03:06
Steven
And ultimately, you know, they paid an administrative monetary penalty as well because the violations were huge, as far as the number of people who were expressing that type of issue. So, but that's kind of a really good example of, there's lots of different ways, right, to, it doesn't have to be full-on enforcement action. And, you know, administrative monetary penalties, it can be something like this, which is quick and easy.

00:24:03:11 - 00:24:19:21
Steven
It can be a negotiated settlement. It can be just coming to an agreement that, oh, when you engaged a third party to do this for you, you know, to give you a different perspective, they need to make sure they're complying with all the rules. And you don't get to contract away your obligations. So it's also, you know, doing your own due diligence.

00:24:19:21 - 00:24:38:20
Steven
It's also just understanding if someone else is acting on your behalf or someone else is doing something on your behalf, you are ultimately accountable. So you know, so that's that's also an interesting perspective as well. So you know, I think for me it it really does come down to being as innovative and creative, there's more than one way to achieve compliance.

00:24:38:21 - 00:24:57:03
Steven
One of the things we do twice a year on our website is we publish what we call our CASL dashboard. We tell you how many complaints we've got, where the areas of those complaints is, what categories those fall into. We talk about any kind of regulatory policy work we've done. We do publish so that Canadians are well aware of what we're trying to do in this space.

00:24:57:04 - 00:25:16:09
Steven
And then on an annual basis, on the telemarketing side, we publish an annual Do Not Call list report every fall, which talks about, like these are the complaints we saw, these are the actions we took. It really gives a good snapshot. And I actually think it's useful for compliance folks in any particular organization to go look and say, oh, wait a minute, retail is an issue or oh, direct marketing is an issue.

00:25:16:09 - 00:25:25:18
Steven
And what are Canadians complaining about. And you can drill down do you see in those those documents to kind of understand it. And if don't, then you can always reach out to us so that you can get ahead of it.

00:25:25:20 - 00:25:52:04
Alison
Those are great resources for marketers and the broader business community as well. And we are absolutely in passionate agreement about the importance of putting Canadian consumers at the centre of everything we do and operating in very ethical, transparent and respectful ways. It's written into the code of ethics that the CMA has on behalf of the marketing profession, and anyone that's part of the CMA from a brand perspective,

00:25:52:04 - 00:26:10:12
Alison
It absolutely has helped with that important criteria. So we are very much aligned on that for sure. Now, I would love you to share what you're seeing and how Canadians are responding to marketing, because again, you have such a unique lens on this, and what are three lessons that you would offer for marketers based on what you've been seeing?

00:26:10:14 - 00:26:27:15
Steven
Well, I feel like we could probably take the entire length of this podcast to talk about what Canadians tell me. We, as I said, get 6000 complaints a week from Canadians. At the top of this podcast, you know, you talked about just our international work and our memorandums of understanding and how critical that is. And I actually cannot stress that enough.

00:26:27:15 - 00:26:51:09
Steven
You know, every country around the world, and certainly like countries, there are similar countries who have similar, you know, regimes, if you will, in the communication space. We all have domestic legislation and we've got an international problem. So those memorandums of understanding are critical, a) to assist with enforcement actions because often folks impacting some of the things that Canadians are concerned about maybe don't reside in Canada.

00:26:51:09 - 00:27:11:21
Steven
So, you know, I need to kind of exercise those MOUs there. But more importantly, like just for information sharing and intelligence sharing. And how did you address a particular issue? I'm sure out there you could see how waves of campaigns or waves of discontent, if you will, kind of just go around the world, right? Like, and there's all these different campaigns that kind of flow around.

00:27:11:21 - 00:27:27:15
Steven
So, you know, if I can talk to my colleague in New Zealand or if I can talk to my colleague in the UK, or just this week, I just signed an MOU with, the communications regulator in Ireland. If I can pick up the phone, call them and say, okay, I am seeing this, how did you guys approach it?

00:27:27:15 - 00:27:50:04
Steven
Have you seen it yet? There's always a good question. But you know, if you did, what kind of what kind of message it take and what did you how did you work with your industry involved in this and how did you work with the communications folks that you perhaps regulate to try and address this particular thing? Those agreements are critical when we've got a global problem, right, at the end of the day, on the more nefarious side of the house, but that affects Canadians, and it goes back to trusted brands.

00:27:50:04 - 00:28:07:07 
Steven
Online shopping probably is one of the number one hits that we get. Food, drug, health, especially on the drug side. Business to business people don't necessarily, I can say, maybe don't understand, you know. A lot of the business to business rules are, if you will, less constrictive. You know, they're very permissive, right? Business to business, you've got to be able to do business.

00:28:07:09 - 00:28:21:16
Steven
But I think there's a lot of probably grey area there about, you know, what you're allowed to do with another business, etc.. Those are kind of the categories. And I encourage you go to our dashboard, I encourage you go to our reports because you'll see a much more robust discussion that I'm giving you on that.

00:28:21:18 - 00:28:37:06
Steven
The top complaints I get, and we were talking about this earlier is, I did not give consent to get this email. I did not give consent to get this text message. The one thing I preach every time in front of every industry that I speak to is consent, consent, consent, and then, of course, on the CASL side of the house, it's about unsubscribe.

00:28:37:06 - 00:28:53:22
Steven
And I know that sounds very, you know, in some way it's it's kind of like, well just delete the email. But from a marketer's perspective, if someone says they don't want tp hear from you anymore, then just respect that choice, because then you just frustrate them. But you know, people file a complaint, which is work. I admit that, right?

00:28:53:22 - 00:29:13:08
Steven
They've got to call somebody. They've got to fill out a form, they've got to do something. So if they're going to take the time to do that, it means they're really frustrated. And I talk about 6000 complaints a week I get from Canadians. That probably means tenfold, 20 fold, 100 fold who are actually frustrated. Right? They think it's, you know, it's at least ten times that.

00:29:13:10 - 00:29:29:07
Steven
Now, people who are complaining about a particular issue, particular thing, because most Canadians will not complain. They won't take the effort, you know, to go out there and say, you know what, I'm going to fill out this form because this is the 82nd time that I've actually unsubscribed. They won't stop it, you know, I tell them not to.

00:29:29:07 - 00:29:49:00
Steven
They just don't respect my choice. And we all know at the end of the day, word of mouth is way better than any ad campaign. So respecting that choice. And it's the same on the Do Not Call side. It's one thing if you register for the Do Not Call list, obviously there are exceptions to that, but when that consumer says, can you place me on your internal Do Not Call list, which is sort of like an unsubscribe, right?

00:29:49:02 - 00:30:08:02
Steven
Okay. I appreciate you're allowed to call me. I still don't want you to call me. So respect that, respect that choice. Right? Because that's what's frustrating for Canadians. But if you want my top three tips? Consent, consent, consent. Document, document document. And what I mean by that is, if someone asks to be put on your internal Do Not Call list,

00:30:08:02 - 00:30:37:20
Steven
if at the end of the day you've actioned and unsubscribed within the ten days suggested. Whatever you do with the consumer or the Canadian that you're engaging in, make sure you have documented processes around CASL, around telemarketing, around the national Do Not Call list, have them in a binder, have them available, you know, on your SharePoint drive, so that everyone can see them, etc. But, you know, document it. Because when I come knocking saying, I'm getting all these complaints and I need to understand like, is this working?

00:30:37:22 - 00:30:56:01
Steven
This is the first thing you're going to give me as a due diligence defence. You're going to say, wait a minute, I've got all the records. I know I'm allowed to call people when I'm allowed to call people. I respected the fact that when people tell me not to call them, I don't call them, and more importantly, I have a robust compliance program, that ensures that we check off all those boxes and we follow all those procedures.

00:30:56:01 - 00:31:14:21
Steven
So the document piece is really important to me, because that's the first thing I'm going to ask you. Can you prove it? You know, I you know, at the end of the day, I'm going to say, this is what I'm seeing. What's your defence? So, you know, if you've got the policies and procedures in place and maybe you dust them off once a year to make sure they're still relevant, you know, maybe you call us and say, is there anything new that we should add?

00:31:14:23 - 00:31:32:22
Steven
You know, that's all great, but make sure that it's available, right? And that feeds so well into whatever compliance program that you would ever need to do. And then the third thing, and I sort of touched on it is, be responsive to Canadians. If they say, don't call me, don't call them. If they say, I want to unsubscribe, unsubscribe, just respect that wish.

00:31:33:00 - 00:31:39:00
Steven
And I think that gets you a long way as far as keeping everyone happy in the ecosystem, including the regulator.

00:31:39:02 - 00:32:02:05
Alison
Steven, that is absolutely great advice. So the world and business are going through truly tectonic shifts. And as we both look forward toward those complex future challenges, like the ethical use of AI, the more sophisticated digital scams that you've talked about, where do you see the most critical opportunities for our two organizations to continue working together?

00:32:02:07 - 00:32:25:12
Steven
We're in an interesting space when it comes to AI, right? Whether it's, whether it's private sector, whether it's governments, whether it's like huge manufacturing places, how do we leverage the technology for good instead of evil, right? Like how do we make sure that we can get the most out of AI without crossing any boundaries? So in the Government of Canada, even here, you know, at the CRTC, we're trying to figure out how do we leverage AI to do some of the work for us, right?

00:32:25:12 - 00:32:43:02
Steven
How can you help us in the slicing and dicing process? So, you know, how do we use that tool? So AI is going to be critical. And I think, I think where we need to get to is, one, I think we need to be transparent. I think we need to be transparent with Canadians from the regulator's perspective on how we're using AI and from the Government

00:32:43:02 - 00:33:03:15
Steven
Canada's perspective, if I can talk on behalf of them. Let's not try to pretend we're something else. Let's not try to pretend we're better than anyone else, because we did this really cool thing. That we used AI, and maybe we got a head start on our competition, but we used AI to do that. And, you know, that really does take me to trusted brand, which I think is probably most important for your association.

00:33:03:17 - 00:33:24:03
Steven
And you want Canadians to believe in your brand. You want Canadians to answer the phone if you're calling them, you want them to open your email, you want them to respond to your SMS text message, you want them to positively engage with your brand. I think that's the biggest challenge we have. Be that trusted brand so that when people see that pop in their inbox, they go, oh, that's from Company X.

00:33:24:03 - 00:33:40:05
Steven
I really like them. But I think by being that trusted brand and and trying to respect their wishes on how they want to be engaged and, and, you know, respect the things on how they want to be engaged, I guess. But I think the other side of that is, is also being transparent with them on what you're doing and how you're doing it, right?

00:33:40:05 - 00:34:11:02
Steven
And to go back to, I think collaborations like this, I think engagements like this are really important. You know, I have really amazing people who work for me and I am very blessed, whether that be technically, forensically or from policy driven or just engagement folks. If there's any way as the regulator that I can be helpful, whether that's standing in front of a roomful of people, or we can provide you some guidance on where to find some cool things, tips and tricks that we deem to be, you know, within the confines of CASL or the UTRs in the telemarketing regime or whatever,

00:34:11:08 - 00:34:25:21
Steven
we are happy to do that. You just have to always be mindful that even using AI, you have to respect all the rules, like all the rules still apply. But for me, it's about being transparent with Canadians, and I think that would be the most important thing. And I think that's where you get that trust.

00:34:25:23 - 00:34:49:05
Alison
And your point around trust in brands is so absolutely mission critical for every marketer, for every business. We did some CMA research a few months ago with Canadian consumers to understand more about that. And when Canadians are receiving irrelevant messages, when they're, when you're communicating to them in ways that they don't want, it is one of the quickest ways to lose trust.

00:34:49:05 - 00:35:14:05
Alison
And building back that lost trust takes many, many years, and often it can't be done. So the wisdom that you're sharing with us is very much appreciated and certainly will be resonating with my listeners as well. So before I let you get back to your busy day, I'd love you to share what is the single most important piece of advice that you can offer to a senior marketing leader who wants to build a culture of compliance that also drives innovation.

00:35:14:07 - 00:35:18:00
Steven
Well, so you're ending with an easy question. That's awesome, thanks, I appreciate that.

00:35:18:02 - 00:35:19:21
Alison
We've been warming up.

00:35:19:23 - 00:35:40:23
Steven
I think from an individual's perspective, I would suggest the number one thing they can do is pick their boss. And the reason I say that is, it's great, we all get interviewed for different positions. I know when I coach and mentor, I often tell people once you get to a certain level, like once you get to that executive level status, it's actually not about the content, right?

00:35:40:23 - 00:35:58:15
Steven
It is actually about your competencies as a leader. It's what drives you as a leader and how you drive a team. You know, it's about your values and ethics. So as much as you might be interviewing, or anyone listening here might be interviewing for a position, I would suggest you have a due diligence to interview them.

00:35:58:17 - 00:36:23:17
Steven
Because I think that connection with your boss is critical. You need to be in a position where you are aligned, whether it be like-minded or even just aligned from a values and ethics perspective, it is way easier to be amazing in your job if it aligns with your personal beliefs and in the organization aligns, you know, with your values and ethics, but also the person that you're working for on a day-to-day basis.

00:36:23:17 - 00:36:49:17
Steven
And we all spend all kinds of time with our leaders. As senior leaders, you need to spend the time and spend the effort in creating that kind of healthy, supportive work environment for success. And it sounds cliche. But that, take mentoring and coaching really seriously. Empower your folks to take risk. I would like to say, if you asked any of my senior executive team, they would tell me that I'm, you know, an empowering leader.

00:36:49:17 - 00:37:08:09
Steven
I ask them to be creative every day. I ask them to come up with finding innovative solutions. I give them the bandwidth to make those decisions, but I also give them the bandwidth to make those mistakes. And I'm on the side of, like, you need to actually celebrate those mistakes as much as you celebrate the wins, because it means we tried something, right?

00:37:08:14 - 00:37:13:01
Steven
And not everything works right? Like, you know, as much as we have all these really great ideas and I have

00:37:13:10 - 00:37:32:00
Steven
amazingly smart people who work around me, we go down a certain path and go, well that didn't work out as we thought it would, and I'm sure all of your listeners would feel the same way in certain circumstances. But I think it's, it's really about that supportive, empowering environment because I think you need to you know, you need to make it infectious.

00:37:32:00 - 00:37:51:18
Steven
You need to be an exciting place to work. You need people to get up every day and say, I can't wait to go to work and try this and do this. And I'm the first to admit it. As you move up in an organization and as you become less, you know, engaged with the bigger, broader team and all the people who may work for you, I think it's really important

00:37:51:18 - 00:38:09:11
Steven
That you kind of just reflect on that and spend some time, it doesn't have to be a lot, but spend some time like going down two or three or four levels and understand what people are talking to. And, you know, maybe I was going to say, I think my folks like it. Maybe if you ask them offline and told them otherwise, like I just pop in the team meetings,

00:38:09:11 - 00:38:26:16
Steven
Because I know my folks are having a team meeting, and I'll just pop in and sit down, and then they all think I'm there to say something and I'm like, no, I'm just here to listen. Like I just want to understand what's going on, right? Like, you know, I don't have that opportunity every day. So I think, for me, it's about, it's about allowing employees, even at the most junior of levels, to feel like they're leaving their mark.

00:38:26:16 - 00:38:46:08
Steven
But you need to foster that environment. So you need actually to work at that. You need to spend 15 minutes a day, you need to spend 30 minutes a week? I don't know what it is, but it's like engaging at all kinds of different points, not just the folks who sit around your executive table. My motto is, you know, as a fellow public servant, you know, my name will never be on a building.

00:38:46:08 - 00:39:04:22
Steven
I always say, I want to be remembered in people's retirement speeches. And I will never hear any of them, probably. But I want them, you know, when they're ready to retire from their career, I want them to go, I had this really great boss once. So if I could encourage anyone from an individual perspective or building a team perspective is like, like be that leader.

00:39:05:00 - 00:39:25:20
Alison
There is so much inspiration and richness in what you just shared. I think in any business today, but certainly as marketers, if we are not testing and making mistakes and learning from those mistakes, you simply can't innovate. There is no way we will have all of the answers and get it right the first time when we're trying to innovate and do something we've never done before and I,

00:39:27:05 - 00:39:59:03
Alison
Before joining the CMA, I spent four years in the startup space, which I believed that before I went in. But certainly coming out of that experience, you absolutely have to be willing to take measured risks and fail at times and learn from the failing. And then, who needs a statue when you could be creating the legacy that you're creating by helping accelerate people's careers and their growths, and to really be remembered in those retirement speeches. That is absolutely the ultimate compliment that any leader today in any business can have.

00:39:59:03 - 00:40:18:13
Alison
So, Steven, thank you for ending on such an amazing note, thank you for an absolutely wonderful conversation. And thank you to you and your team for being such great partners with the CMA as we together manage through the quickly evolving business, consumer and regulatory environment.

00:40:18:15 - 00:40:39:10
Steven
Awesome. Thank you for the opportunity. I'll do my website plug, and you know, it's www.crtc.gc.ca. If you have any questions, my face is on there somewhere. You can find me and they'll tell you how to contact me. But by all means, this is the best part of my role. And if we have another opportunity, whether that be in person or, or something else, by all means, don't hesitate to reach out.

00:40:39:16 - 00:40:40:18
Steven
This has been great. Thank you.

00:40:40:22 - 00:40:46:03
Alison
We would love to get you out in person for one of our events in 2026. Thanks so much, Steven. Have a good day.

00:40:46:03 - 00:40:52:15
Steven
Thank you.

00:40:52:17 - 00:41:05:06
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

What does it take to rise from your first marketing role to CEO of a major communications company? In today's episode, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Richard Kellam, who transformed his career from marketer to President & CEO of DATA Communications Management Corp. (DCM). Richard reveals how he leveraged transferable skills to make the jump to CPG, secured international opportunities, and how he evolved from Chief Customer Officer to CEO.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:28:10
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:28:12 - 00:01:00:08
Alison
In today's episode, it's my pleasure to welcome Richard Kellam, who represents one of marketing's most desirable success stories. A CMO who successfully transitioned to global and national president and CEO roles. This is still far too much of a rarity in our profession. Richard is president and CEO of Data Communications Management Corp., commonly known as DCM. His journey from brand manager to chief executive spans three decades, eight different countries and leading marketing, sales and ultimately the top job for tier one brands.

00:01:00:10 - 00:01:26:12
Alison
Richard's career progression through marketing leadership roles at Molson, Wrigley, Mars and Goodyear, combined with strategic moves into sales and general management positions, provides a really wonderful blueprint for ambitious marketing professionals seeking to expand their influence beyond the marketing role. At DCM, Richard is proving that marketing-trained CEOs bring truly unique advantages to leadership roles, particularly in today's customer-centric, digitally driven business environment.

00:01:26:14 - 00:02:00:05
Alison
He's leading DCM's transformation from a traditional print company to a tech enabled marketing solutions provider, demonstrating how his marketing background provides crucial insights into customer needs as well as market trends and brand positioning. His career offers inspiration and practical guidance for many talented CMOs who aspire to CEO roles, but often find the path unclear. Richard's proved that with the right experiences, mindset shifts and strategic career moves, the transition from CMO to CEO is not only possible, but can be a very natural evolution for marketing leaders.

00:02:00:07 - 00:02:03:13
Alison
Richard, it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you today.

00:02:03:15 - 00:02:05:15
Richard
Thanks for having me, Alison. Appreciate it.

00:02:05:17 - 00:02:18:15
Alison
And Richard and I first met very early in our careers. He was at Molson and I was the VP at McLaren. McCann overseeing the Molson account. So it's been a long journey together. And Richard, it's been really amazing to watch your path.

00:02:18:17 - 00:02:21:10
Richard
Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, it was a lot of fun working together many years ago.

00:02:21:12 - 00:02:30:16
Alison
So I'd love you to take us to your first job in marketing and how you thought about your career. In those early days, did you ever consider the possibility of becoming a CEO?

00:02:30:18 - 00:02:54:23
Richard
I'm not sure I even knew what CEO meant back then. So I guess the answer to your question is no. I never really thought it was, it was possible. My actually first job at university was in sales for a company called Playtex. Actually, I applied for the job, but I"m really gonna date myself here. But it was in a classified ad in the Globe and Mail, right?

00:02:55:02 - 00:03:13:18
Richard
Who remembers that? And I applied for the job, went in and interviewed for it and successfully got the role. They actually had two divisions. They had a they called it a family products mission. They had an intimate apparel division, and I was hired for the intimate apparel division. So I'm sure people know the Playtex products in that division and started in sales. Had a combination of, key accounts.

00:03:13:18 - 00:03:33:16
Richard
A lot of the accounts aren't even in the market anymore. Simpson's, Eaton's, Sears. Of course, none of those are around. Kmart, Woolworths, which Walmart acquired. And then I had a bunch of independent accounts in downtown Toronto as well. So I did that for the for the first year and thankfully ended up being quite successful. I actually won rookie of the year, which is quite fun.

00:03:33:16 - 00:03:43:16
Richard
And then after one year I was moved into marketing and I was an assistant brand manager on a few brands in Playtex. So that was my start in my marketing journey, you know, quite a while ago in the mid 80s.

00:03:43:18 - 00:04:05:01
Alison
I definitely remember the days of classified ads and all of the retailers you mentioned. So we're certainly of the same vintage. I also worked in sales earlier in my career, and I think it's such a powerful view to have, especially early in your career, and can really shape your approach to marketing. So building on that, what experience or skills did you gain in that first sales and marketing role that have served you well throughout your career?

00:04:05:03 - 00:04:31:12
Richard
So the biggest skill I gained on the marketing side was the importance of data analytics in business intelligence, on the sales side as well. And this was a days where computers were just being introduced to business and nobody had their own personal computer. Back to my point where I won this, this rookie of the year sales award. Actually, I got a trip to Jamaica, so my wife and I went to Jamaica, and on that trip I read a book on how to use Excel.

00:04:31:14 - 00:04:44:23
Richard
So I learned Excel from a from a book because I didn't have a computer. So I was sitting on a beach for the week, just reading about how to use Excel. And when I got back to the office, they had a computer room. So you didn't have a computer at your desk. You had a computer room. And I started to apply that

00:04:44:23 - 00:05:05:08
Richard
learning to learn how to use Excel, because I knew that data analytics and business intelligence was extremely important in marketing or important in business. So I, I've been kind of a numbers guy or a data guy or an analyst guy or business intelligence guy, kind of for my whole career, using data and insights to create value for a business.

00:05:05:08 - 00:05:27:10
Richard
So that was really defining, I'd say, point for me in my career, and it's certainly been kind of central to my skill and capability as I've progressed. And I'd say the other key competency or attribute, I'm, my archetype is an explorer. So I like to learn new things and see new things and discover new things. So I'm a very curious business leader as well.

00:05:27:10 - 00:05:39:14
Richard
So curiosity, while I was in that sales role or in that early stage entry level marketing role, was an important competency and that really contributed to my success as well. In addition to the data analytics and business intelligence.

00:05:39:16 - 00:06:00:19
Alison
Curiosity and the constantly learning is such a mission critical skill and mindset for anyone in marketing. I think it's always been the case, but given how the pace of change is accelerated around us, it is absolute mission critical. So following Playtex, you moved into the first of many marketing roles in the CPG industry, starting with Robin Hood Foods and then later Wrigley.

00:06:00:21 - 00:06:03:11
Alison
What made that move possible for you?

00:06:03:13 - 00:06:23:07
Richard
I actually worked for a guy who came out of, Procter and Gamble. So that was my first boss at Playtex, and he talked a lot about, you know, kind of the CPG space and the learning and the development and the skill and capability that they build. And so I thought, you know, I had this opportunity come by for Robin Hood Multifoods was a recruiter, headhunter that was calling me and talk to me about this role.

00:06:23:07 - 00:06:41:22
Richard
So that was kind of an interesting role and, and a good opportunity for me to kind of expand my horizon into a new category. Interesting thing about Robin Hood, again, that was kind of my entry into CPG. But if you think about it, I was the brand manager on Robin Hood Flour. So you can't get a more commoditized business, right?

00:06:41:22 - 00:07:02:12
Richard
Salt, sugar, flour those are all commodities. So to really understand the category and how to create value in a highly commoditized category was huge learning for me. And, and it was a lot of fun, actually, at the same time. And we had a really good run on Robin Hood Flour. The brand had a great success and proven that marketing does, you know, deliver value, especially in a highly commoditized category like that.

00:07:02:12 - 00:07:07:11
Richard
Right. Brand is everything. So learned a lot there. And then obviously applied that learning as I progressed.

00:07:07:13 - 00:07:14:09
Alison
And you went on to spend the bulk of your career in CPG. So what were the keys to your advancement and success?

00:07:14:11 - 00:07:35:11
Richard
Yeah. Coming back to what I said earlier, you know, my curiosity, my explorer archetype, really kind of wanted to understand and discover new opportunities to build value in a business or value in a brand. Those, I'd say, would be my key success factors as I move through my career. Also, I was known as the "just do it" guy.

00:07:35:13 - 00:07:57:06
Richard
In other words, I wasn't afraid to to do things and try things and not afraid to make mistakes. I always had a strong bias to action. Thankfully, I did more things right than wrong so that, that contributed to my success as well, but clearly made a lot of mistakes in my career as well and learned from those mistakes and then applied that learning to new, you know, to new activity moving forward.

00:07:57:08 - 00:08:13:05
Alison
The "just do it" guy is so true of how I think of you. And that's a great personal brand. Is it also a part of why you went through really experience to three international assignments, starting with Malaysia, then India and then back to Malaysia? How did the initial opportunity for that arise?

00:08:13:07 - 00:08:44:21
Richard
I was hired to Wrigley as a new products manager. So new brand matters, new products manager. And the first brand or product they worked on was a brand that Canadians will know. It's called Excel, right? Excel. Accelerate your breath. Excel. Okay, so that wasn't even a brand at the time. It was a concept. They had a they had a product concept, was a xylitol product that had long lasting flavour duration, but no brand at the time and really kind of no brand positioning, no concept, nothing.

00:08:44:21 - 00:09:03:22
Richard
So I was hired as a new brand manager, and that got me a lot of exposure to the folks in Chicago. So the R&D team in Chicago and the development team in Chicago, as well as the marketing team obviously were sort of in North American marketing team because Canada was the first market to be considering this new product, and so we had to create a whole brand around it.

00:09:03:22 - 00:09:27:04
Richard
So as a result of that, I got some exposure and I was doing a sales meeting in Huntsville and Bill Wrigley Jr., so the son of Mr. Wrigley we called him, the son of the owner was responsible for Canada. The president of Canada reported to Bill Wrigley Jr. He happened to be at this meeting, and I just happened to talk to him and said, hey, listen Bill, and I had gotten connected with him prior, obviously, given the Excel project.

00:09:27:06 - 00:09:50:14
Richard
And I said, listen, if you're ever interested in or need any help international, because he was responsible for international markets, then I'd be happy to help. And literally within two weeks I was on a plane to India. I had to renew my passport and get a visa and all that stuff within two weeks. I was on a plane to India to work on a marketing and sales feasibility study.

00:09:50:14 - 00:10:09:17
Richard
You know, is it a market that Wrigley should enter? And if they entered, how would they enter from a sales and from a marketing standpoint? And then that moved on to me being part of a bigger team of supply chain and procurement and HR, to get to a final point where we recommended that we should enter India and here's how we should enter.

00:10:09:17 - 00:10:29:00
Richard
And then I was selected to be the managing director of India. So it's called Wrigley India Private Limited. So I was part of the team, the guy that was said to set up the business and run the business. So that's how I got into international. And again, I was a new brand new product manager. Not a lot of experience at all at general management.

00:10:29:00 - 00:10:43:09
Richard
So they wanted to give me some general management experience. And that's how I ended up in Malaysia. Malaysia was a small country where I could hone my skills and be trained to be a general manager prior to going into a larger opportunity in India.

00:10:43:10 - 00:11:09:21
Alison
There's so much I love about this story, including creating your own opportunities, you don't ask you don't get, and also going internationally from the culture of Canada to Malaysia. There was obviously a big change, that culture shock, and it's challenging from a professional perspective. But you also have a wife, young family. So I'd love you to share with our listeners what were some of the challenges, both personally and professionally, in making those moves?

00:11:09:23 - 00:11:30:14
Richard
Professionally, there weren't a lot of challenges. You know, because you work in an international organization and, you know, you get the support from the international teams as well. I'd say personally, certainly, you know, having great support from my wife, Sheila, and she rallied around it and thought, great opportunity to experience a new culture or experience a new country and, you know, have the kids experience a new, you know, a new country as well.

00:11:30:14 - 00:11:46:05
Richard
At the same time, thinking about the the positives of the opportunity, I think this is really important, right? Thinking about the positives of the opportunity. There's always going to be challenges, especially making, you know, physical moves like that with as a family. But there's way more positives than there are negatives, not just from a career perspective, from a family,

00:11:46:05 - 00:12:05:14
Richard
And I had to move a lot of people internationally in my career, right? Hire people from Canada or move them to Germany, or hire people from Germany or move, you know, move them to the UK. And I had so many times, you present an opportunity, then they go back to their family, say, hey, listen, I have this opportunity to move to, you know, move to China.

00:12:05:15 - 00:12:20:01
Richard
Are you going to be okay with it? I know it's going to be tough. I know it's going to be hard for the children to move at this age. Right? So I had to do a lot of coaching. Here's what you want to do. You want to go back and say, I have this exciting opportunity, this is going to be outstanding. You're going to meet a lot of new people.

00:12:20:01 - 00:12:40:09
Richard
We're going to be able to travel to a lot of new countries. You're going to experience, you know, a lot of diversity and a lot of learning. How you present it to your family, importantly, you know, if you've got children in the family as well, it's critically important. So yeah, I've always looked at the glass half full, half full leader and look at the positives about making international moves like that.

00:12:40:11 - 00:12:49:04
Richard
And they were great. I mean I think of my kids today and the experiences they had, you know, moving through multiple countries and schooling and people they've met, they've got friends kind of all over the world.

00:12:49:06 - 00:12:56:22
Alison
So, Richard, a lot of your career was spent internationally. You were clearly very successful in those roles. What do you attribute your success to?

00:12:57:00 - 00:13:18:17
Richard
Again, a couple of comments I made earlier? One is around my curiosity and really kind of learning and understanding the different markets and the the environments that I was working in. Culture of the environment. So being super adaptable and obviously collaborating well with teams in the local markets as well as, as well as international teams that I was working with and then really recognizing the quality of the teams that I worked with.

00:13:18:18 - 00:13:38:12
Richard
And, you know, not being a guy that just came in and thought he knew everything, right. I think it's a big problem that I've seen where, you know, you're hired into a new international market, and you know it all. I walked in thinking I knew nothing and working with the team to discover and explore and work with the team effectively to create value and and build the business over time.

00:13:38:12 - 00:14:02:08
Richard
So I'd say that was probably my biggest strength is kind of that cultural understanding, if you will. You know, business culture is kind of similar around the world, but understanding the people culture within a market. I had an interesting point in my career. I was the president of the European Petcare business for Mars Incorporated. I was responsible for 16 markets, we had about 4200 associates in 14 factories.

00:14:02:08 - 00:14:23:09
Richard
So markets like France and Switzerland and Austria, Germany, etc.. You know, when we had leadership meetings, you've got all these different cultures in that meeting. And the French culture, of course, is very different than the German culture, than the Spanish culture, and really kind of understanding how to work in that multicultural environment and valuing, you know, those multicultural environments as well.

00:14:23:09 - 00:14:39:23
Richard
I'd say that that's where I was, you know, quite successful in my career. Made a lot of mistakes of course. I remember I got some good coaching from one of my leaders at the time. We were in an annual planning meeting. We called it Connect to Grow, where all the markets came in and presented their plans. France came in and Germany came in, and Spain came in.

00:14:40:00 - 00:14:56:00
Richard
I made a comment. I think it was the French, it was the French team, about look, you missed your plan the last couple of years. Why do you guys think this is a plan you're going to beat this year? And, I said it probably a little bit more directly than I just said it here. And then I got a little coaching moment after which, Richard, it's not what you say.

00:14:56:00 - 00:15:05:08
Richard
It's how you say it. So I remember that today, and I think about that as I, sort of move through my career and to different, you know, different cultures and different situations.

00:15:05:10 - 00:15:28:14
Alison
That's such great advice for anyone listening in. A great reminder for me as well. The other thing that really resonates for me that you've shared a few times is you're open to making mistakes. The only way you can stretch your thinking and really advance the business is recognize there's a lot you don't know, regardless of how senior you are, and that we're going to make mistakes along the way and making it safe for you and your teams to make those mistakes.

00:15:28:14 - 00:15:46:06
Alison
Learn quickly and then ensure that the same mistakes aren't happening again. Now, I'm sure we've got listeners who are very interested in following in your international pathway, would be very open to working in global roles. So what advice would you give anyone that's listening in pursuing those roles?

00:15:46:08 - 00:16:07:22
Richard
Well, look, I think first of all, Canadians are really well positioned to be successful internationally. We're really well positioned, because as a Canadian marketer, you've got to be really adaptable. You got to understand how to collaborate. You're working with a lot of cultures, even in your organization. Think of, Canada's grown through immigration, right? So think of the teams that you're working with.

00:16:08:00 - 00:16:38:20
Richard
You're already working with international teams. And you know, the fact that the market is relatively small forces us to be resourceful at stretching budgets and really understanding precision and finding new creative ways to be successful or punch above your weight. So Canadians can be very, very, very successful. In fact, you know, when I was at Mars Incorporated, we had a lot of Canadians in international markets and extreme success, like really easy to move a Canadian into a new market.

00:16:39:01 - 00:17:07:16
Richard
So I would say, look, if you're interested, then pursue that interest, right? Pursue the interest, find the right people to talk to you, to have the right conversations, either in your company or in companies that could be interesting to you. And there'll be opportunities there. I can tell you that there are so many large CPG companies that are looking for international people to help them fill opportunities in their global markets, whether they're in you know, the European markets or their Asian markets or any of their markets globally.

00:17:07:19 - 00:17:22:03
Richard
A lot of the growth is coming from international expansion for these large CPGs or even outside of CPG. Right? So go after it. So there's a ton of opportunity just, you know, getting connected to the right people and having the right conversations, either in your organization or in other organizations.

00:17:22:04 - 00:17:43:06
Alison
That's great. It goes back to your Bill Wrigley Jr. conversation. If you hadn't taken a couple minutes to let him know your interest, you never would have had the opportunity. So you started your career in Canada. Then you worked internationally for several decades, and now you've come back home. It gives you a really unique lens on marketers and marketing in Canada, so I'd love you to share in your experience

00:17:43:08 - 00:17:54:04
Alison
how do you think Canadian marketers compare to our global peers? You've talked a bit about some of our unique strengths, so I'd love to hear if there's any others. And then do you see any gaps or opportunities where we should be improving?

00:17:54:06 - 00:18:17:20
Richard
Canadian arketers generally are far more adaptable, little scrappier, I'd say, you know, given the smaller size of the marketplace, having to work with lower budgets and be able to stretch those budgets to be more resourceful. I think a lot more connected obviously, into the trade as well. Certainly on the CPG side, I think we breed efficient and instinctive marketers that have a lot of curiosity and agility.

00:18:17:22 - 00:18:33:21
Richard
I mean, there's other markets that are very similar. I think Australia has kind of a similar market as well, and I'd say some of the skills and capabilities and attributes of an Australian marketer would be very similar to Canadian, but again, very different say, than the U.S. market given the size and scale and have a much, you know, deeper and narrow skill set.

00:18:33:23 - 00:18:43:08
Alison
When I was working on an international brand we used to, and working with the U.S. in particular, we would always joke, it's like, there were three people in the U.S. doing a third of the job that we had in Canada.

00:18:43:13 - 00:18:44:05
Richard
Yeah, exactly.

00:18:44:09 - 00:18:47:11
Alison
Which creates some opportunities for us for sure.

00:18:47:13 - 00:18:48:04
Richard
Yeah.

00:18:48:06 - 00:19:10:23
Alison
Now I want to go back to your non-linear career path. So in moving to Mars, where you spent nearly half your career, you transitioned from marketing director in Canada through a series of leadership roles at the country, regional levels in Europe, and then to a global role as the Chief Customer Officer. So what transferable skills contributed to your success and ability to step into that Chief Customer Officer role?

00:19:12:22 - 00:19:29:06
Richard
So, you know, as a marketer, obviously, you know, in Canada you've got to be well-connected to the trade. You know, I started in sales, of course, and then sales was always a key part of my responsibility, even as a marketer. Has to be in any market, but especially the Canadian market. And my commercial experience was pretty robust.

00:19:29:06 - 00:19:50:22
Richard
I'd say, you know, always had that kind of interest in sales and been connected to sales all the way through my career. How I ended up becoming the Global Chief Customer Officer for Mars Incorporated was Mars bought Wrigley, and it was a $23 billion acquisition, and there were about 22 or 23 people doing their due diligence. And I was the most senior of the 23.

00:19:51:00 - 00:20:15:16
Richard
I was the President of the European Petcare business for Mars Incorporated. So how I ended up in that role was they wanted to have somebody that had experience from both companies, understood the Wrigley culture, understood the Mars culture, so that we could help bring the two companies together. And the toughest is bringing the two companies together on the sales side, right, because you're competitors

00:20:15:16 - 00:20:40:18
Richard
And now you've got to be collaborators. Literally, Mars and Wrigley were direct competitors, so now they've got to be collaborators and you've got teams that are coming together. So that's why I was put into that role, to help on the post-merger integration, especially on the commercial side, on the sales side, and work with sales teams around the world to design a new org structure and then culturally, you know, move from competitors to collaborators.

00:20:40:18 - 00:20:43:17
Richard
It was quite a great role. I did it for five years.

00:20:43:19 - 00:20:56:12
Alison
So in many ways, and clearly I have a bias that CMOs are really ideally suited to the CEO role, yet surprisingly few achieve it. So what do you credit your success in earning the CEO title to?

00:20:56:14 - 00:21:32:01
Richard
The key success for me is really kind of, aside from curiosity, which I already discussed, and adaptability and versatility in my career, is really understanding the key drivers of value, I'd say. Whether that's pricing or channel strategy or operational efficiency or innovation, you know, I've always been a growth guy, been a growth leader. So understanding those key drivers of how to drive growth and how to drive, you know, efficiency and productivity at same time, that's what contributed to my success to, you know, get into that CEO role through my career.

00:21:32:03 - 00:21:47:00
Alison
So let's fast forward to today. In your first CEO role at DCM, you are leading a significant transformation from a primarily print to a very tech-enabled digital solution. What were your priorities and taking on the CEO role at the public company?

00:21:47:01 - 00:22:13:13
Richard
Well, my first priority is to figure out what we did as a company, right? So like, data communication management, when I arrived in the organization, I'll put it in a marketing context for a second because I think it's kind of a fun story. They had a brand tagline that said DCM, the brand behind the brand. Okay? Sso as a marketer, I thought, what is the brand behind the brand, like what's DCM all about?

00:22:13:13 - 00:22:37:19
Richard
So I asked a question of the marketing team, of the sales team of, you know, senior leaders. I said, okay, what is the brand behind the brand? What is, what is it that DCM does? And nobody could give me an answer. Okay, I couldn't get a clear answer. I'd ask ten people, I'd get ten different answers. So really didn't understand what DCM's unique selling proposition or what their value to their clients was at the time.

00:22:37:19 - 00:23:00:20
Richard
So went through a whole discovery phase and actually what we discovered was, it was staring us in the face. We create a lot of value to large, highly complex enterprises , right? The more complexity an enterprise has in their marketing operations or their marketing communications or their marketing workflows, the more value we can bring to that client. We play at the enterprise level.

00:23:00:23 - 00:23:17:08
Richard
If it's a little simple project, there's no value we can add. There's lots of guys that can do that. So that was a big part of our discovery and you know, again, I used my marketing skills I developed over the years to help go through this discovery phase. And we ended up with a very simple copy line.

00:23:17:08 - 00:23:41:07
Richard
And now when we go to market and we talk to clients, we talk about where we can help, which is helping take waste out, simplify complexity, drive value. So that was the first and most important thing that I did when I joined DCM was just to understand who we are, what we were, what's our unique selling proposition? What's our go to market strategy. Now on that part of a big part of simplifying complexity,

00:23:41:07 - 00:24:01:02
Richard
I think this is the second part of your question, means you need automation, right? You need digital solutions to be able to automate workflow, to take waste out. And that's where the whole kind of digital transformation came in. But it came in from really understanding our brand, the value we bring and what we needed to be able to deliver against that value.

00:24:01:04 - 00:24:23:07
Richard
And we actually had some very good digital solutions we're building for years in the company. But we were thinking like a printing company, not like a digital company, not like a company to help simplify complexity. So those now came to the forefront as part of our unique selling proposition. We've got these incredible digital solutions to help you solve your complexity in your workflow, in your marketing operations, whatever.

00:24:23:09 - 00:24:28:04
Richard
And that's how we, you know, kind of lean in hard to the, to the Martech side, to the digital side.

00:24:28:06 - 00:24:40:17
Alison
Now, another thing that you've done is successfully completed a major acquisition two years ago. So what steps did you take to bring together two companies again, who were competitors with different cultures and histories?

00:24:40:18 - 00:25:07:07
Richard
Yeah. So we we purchased our biggest competitor. We went from, I think, at the time when I joined, 235 million in revenue, up to 480 last year. So a sizeable transaction that we did. And, I remember again, my experience back from my Mars days when Mars acquired Wrigley. How do you move from competitors to collaborators? And on day one, we had a full program and we called it Bigger and Better Together, moving from competitors to collaborators.

00:25:07:08 - 00:25:32:11
Richard
And we had every team across the country together for 9:00 in the morning to start our Better Together programming. So that was, I'd say, a key marker right from day one that we are going to be better together, we are moving from competitors to collaborators, and we had a whole program around that cultural immersion and understanding the values of DCM, the values obviously, of the company we acquired.

00:25:32:13 - 00:25:52:11
Richard
Yeah, that kind of, that started the program was kind of a funny story. We had everybody together and we hadn't announced it to the public markets yet because we were waiting for the money to arrive, I don't know, it was  going through international, you know, transfer somewhere and we had everybody together 9:00, ready to kick this thing off. Nobody knew why they were together.

00:25:52:11 - 00:26:12:18
Richard
And it was like a high school dance. You had the R.R. Donnelley guys on one side. You had the DCM people on the other side and not really talking to each other because they didn't know why they were there. And finally at about 9:10, we got confirmation that the the money had arrived in their bank account and we could announce a deal publicly.

00:26:12:22 - 00:26:30:03
Richard
We needed to announce it publicly first before we actually kicked off the internal session. So, it was a little stressful moment there of time, by the way, we were supposed to close the night before and have this event the next morning, but the money got stuck in time zones, right?

00:26:30:05 - 00:26:34:05
Alison
Best laid plans. That would have been, that ten minutes must have felt like two hours.

00:26:34:07 - 00:26:47:07
Richard
But back to your question, we had we had a very intentional and, you know, Better Together, moving from competitors to collaborators and a whole program around that kind of a couple of years in. But, we've got a very good team.

00:26:47:09 - 00:26:56:22
Alison
It's also amazing. Like, you didn't leave them any time to, to fret and worry. It was like, as soon as it was public, they were in a room together. They were working together. They were part of making it work together. Now you're also leveraging AI to evolve and accelerate the more traditional business, which certainly is a challenge that many of our listeners are also grappling with. So can you share a couple of ways that AI is impacting your offering?

00:27:12:05 - 00:27:32:13
Richard
We're all in on AI. I mean, we've, we're super active, obviously. Back to the discussion we had earlier about the importance of Martech and simplifying complexity. If we're not using it ourselves, how can we add value to our clients? But, so we're using our ourselves for new business development. A lot of lead gen and script writing, RFP optimization, a big part of our business, especially government, comes from through RFPs.

00:27:32:13 - 00:27:57:11
Richard
So we can now optimize and look at RFPs that we won in the past and what's worked and what hasn't. We can use automation or AI to help us script write and improve our capability to win. We use a lot for file management. This is a service we bring to clients as well. We've got a platform called Assemble, which is a fully AI-enabled digital asset management solution. A big problem that we had and a big problem a lot of our clients have is actually finding files, right.

00:27:57:13 - 00:28:21:20
Richard
And then sharing files as well. So we built a solution that's fully AI-enabled that takes, you know, all that meta tagging, that manual tagging out, makes discovering and finding super efficient. We also use it for social media optimization. We've got a platform called Zavvi and it will look at your social campaign, what's working, what's not working, make recommendations to improve, or when to post and all that stuff. So we're all in on AI across our business.

00:28:21:20 - 00:28:41:11
Richard
And I mean, it's not a single day we're not talking about it and learning from it. And I'll give you one other example. We just built a new website for ourselves, not for a client. And historically, to build a website, you'd hire a company, whether you'd hire us or another company, and you'd probably spend 100, maybe 200 grand, depending on how extensive you want it to go.

00:28:41:11 - 00:29:05:20
Richard
And you'd probably use WordPress and the images on that website you'd either create original photography or you would use an image bank and license. We just built a new site and won't say what it is, but you'll see it soon. And we actually used a freelancer in Berlin. We used protocol framers. When you use WordPress, it gives you a lot more capability to be able to make changes on your own.

00:29:06:02 - 00:29:25:13
Richard
And the imagery that we used, which is super powerful and crazy, impactful imagery, is all AI-generated imagery. And, you know, that's imagery that you'd have to photograph yourself or use an image bank. And it's all, you know, best in class AI-generated. So there's an example. And we did it for kind of a third of what you typically pay for a website.

00:29:25:15 - 00:29:32:01
Richard
So there's a whole new, you know, skill that we've learned as well as we've continued down our AI discovery path.

00:29:32:03 - 00:29:51:08
Alison
Those are great examples. Finding a file seems like such a simple thing, but it's amazing, especially in a bigger organization, how much time you waste and how much frustration you create. So leveraging AI through DCM from an efficiency play, those are all great examples. So this has been a wonderful conversation. I know you're super busy and I appreciate you making the time. Before I let you go,

00:29:51:08 - 00:29:58:09
Alison
for our listeners who are considering a non-linear versus traditional career path, what's one piece of advice that you would leave?

00:29:58:11 - 00:30:22:20
Richard
I've got one piece of advice and I want to give you a little piece of information I discovered when I was researching for this podcast today. But, be curious in your career, certainly embrace versatility and adaptability as well. I'd say those are the key and core competencies to think about as you think about progressing your career. And I do want to read you this and I found this on, it was a Forbes article, came up when I put it in ChatGPT actually to ask about non-linear career.

00:30:22:20 - 00:30:49:19
Richard
I didn't even know people talked about non-linear careers, which is interesting. So very topical. And here's what it reads. I think this is important. Non-linear careers in the future. The evidence suggests non-linear careers will become increasingly common and necessary in the coming decades. In a world of rapid change, think AI, the ability to adapt, pivot and reinvent your professional identity isn't just beneficial, it will be essential.

00:30:49:21 - 00:30:57:12
Richard
I think that sums up nicely about, you know, the importance of how to be successful and how to, you know, why non-linear careers are the future.

00:30:57:14 - 00:31:19:19
Alison
I absolutely agree, I also love the skills that you talked about. They're not technical hard skills. They're all around mindset and adaptability and those, you may call them soft skills, they're really power skills. And when we think about how quickly the world and our profession is changing, it will be those power skills, more than any technical skills that will set you up for a long term and successful career.

00:31:19:21 - 00:31:21:15
Richard
You know, excellent point. Yeah.

00:31:21:17 - 00:31:26:19
Alison
So Richard thoroughly loved the conversation. And thank you again. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.

00:31:27:01 - 00:31:33:04
Richard
Thanks for the opportunity, Alison. Appreciate it.

00:31:33:06 - 00:31:45:19
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

What does it take to transform how an entire country thinks about sleep? In this episode, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Nuno Bamberg, Senior Vice President, Brand and Marketing at Sleep Country Canada. Nuno is the Brazilian-born, Canadian-made marketing leader behind Sleep Country Canada's cultural transformation. From his family's creative agency roots in Brazil to building brand portfolios that balance legacy with bold innovation, Nuno shares why curiosity beats caution, how to fail fast and iterate faster, and what Sleep Country's acquisition of UK's Simba Sleep reveals about scaling values across borders.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:08
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:10 - 00:00:43:06
Alison
In today's episode, we're diving into a story that in many ways embodies the modern Canadian dream. From a 16-year old Brazilian exchange student in small town Ontario to the marketing executive who's transforming one of Canada's most beloved brands. I'm thrilled to welcome Nuno Bamberg, Senior Vice President of Brand and Marketing at Sleep Country Canada, to our podcast today.

00:00:43:08 - 00:01:07:22
Alison
Nuno oversees marketing strategies for Sleep Country, Dormez-Vous, Bloom, Endy, Hush, Casper and Silk and Snow, as well as the new retail store, the rest. His Canadian story began at age 16 as an exchange student in Bracebridge, Ontario, an experience that planted the seeds for his eventual emigration to Canada with his family as an adult. This was driven by his belief in both Canadian values as well as the opportunities our country represents.

00:01:08:00 - 00:01:37:06
Alison
Like me, Nuno started his career at agencies before moving to the brand side. Before he joined Sleep Country Canada and spent nine years as the SVP, Chief Content and Production Officer at Publicis Group Canada, where he helped nearly double the agency's size while working with iconic brands like The Home Depot, Rogers and Canadian Tire. Since making the move to Sleep Country in 2023, Nuno has been transforming how Canadians think about sleep, elevating it well beyond a commodity purchase to a critical component of our health and wellness.

00:01:37:08 - 00:02:06:20
Alison
Today, we'll explore how Nuno is driving this cultural shift around sleep and wellness, and redefining what it means to honour legacy while embracing bold innovations in today's dynamic and, at times, very challenging retail landscape. This week, his team launched their latest innovation, and Nuno will share a bit about what led to the bold new approach. So whether you're interested in the agency to client career transition, or how an established Canadian brand can innovate while honouring their legacy, today's conversation promises to both be inspiring and actionable.

00:02:06:22 - 00:02:09:01
Alison
Without further ado, welcome, Nuno.

00:02:09:03 - 00:02:18:01
Nuno
Thank you. And for the CMA and CMA Connect team for having me today. I'm excited to be here sharing a little bit about myself, my journey to Canada, and my professional experience in Canada.

00:02:18:03 - 00:02:25:20
Alison
So, you know, I would love to start by having you share what brought you from Brazil to Canada originally, and why you chose Canada over so many other countries.

00:02:25:22 - 00:02:53:15
Nuno
The first time I came to Canada, as you mentioned, it was when I was 16 years of age. And frankly, at that time, I was really focused on going somewhere where I didn't know anyone. I know it was a little weird, but that's really what I wanted. I wanted to go somewhere where I had no family, no friends, no safety net, and that would force me just to get out of my comfort zone and quite frankly, immerse myself fully into a new culture, a new language, daily habits, daily rituals, and an entire new way of life, if you will.

00:02:53:16 - 00:03:10:14
Nuno
And I've always been that way. I always been incredibly curious about people in general. Like I always, as a kid, saw myself observing someone down the street and kind of pictured in my brain, what do they come from? What do they do? What's their background? And so I want to live that myself, because I had family in the U.S., that ruled out the U.S. all together.

00:03:10:16 - 00:03:33:22
Nuno
I really wanted us, you know, clean slate, not a soft landing. And so I didn't want to fall back into the Portuguese, nor, because I didn't know English all that well, I wanted to fall back into my comfort zone. And so Canada became an obvious choice because it allowed me to grow, to expand, find a new version of myself if that makes sense, while also being able to encounter a new culture, which was something fairly new to me.

00:03:34:00 - 00:03:54:08
Nuno
And what quickly stood out to me was the Canadian people. As a 16 year old going to Bracebridge at that time, there was no Google, there was no bing, there was Ask Jeeves. I knew nothing about Bracebridge, nor Canada, and within the week I knew everyone. And so the incredible kindness and open-mindedness with which Canadians received me at that time kind of stuck with me.

00:03:54:08 - 00:04:10:16
Nuno
And so the second time I thought about leaving Brazil, fast forward to 2015, we had just had our second child a year before, and when my wife and I were in the decision of do we want to raise a family outside of Brazil, we have family in the U.S., so that felt like a natural place to go to. And my wife had never been to Canada before.

00:04:10:16 - 00:04:27:12
Nuno
So I said to her, let me talk to you about Canada a little bit and the experience of what it is to go to a country where you know no one and no one knows you, but you are incredibly welcome and well-received, despite of your background and your own walk of life. And so we made the decision to come to Canada together.

00:04:27:12 - 00:04:50:06
Nuno
I've been here now for ten years, and there's something about Canada kind of stays with you and has stayed with me since I was 16. And most importantly, quite frankly it molded me in many, many ways. So I always say that I was Brazilian-born and Canadian-made is because in many ways, the parts got assembled in Canada and made me a better human and I would say a better marketer, hopefully from all my experiences in Canada.

00:04:50:08 - 00:05:09:00
Alison
That's an incredibly brave move as an adult. At 16, it's one of those pivotal times where we're all sort of figuring ourselves out. So for you to pick up and leave everything you knew and transplant yourself deliberately in small town Canada was very brave and certainly speaks to, I suspect, part of what has made you such a successful marketer as well.

00:05:09:01 - 00:05:23:03
Alison
And then when you moved with your family to Toronto, I grew up in small town Ontario, so I like to think that we're the most welcoming part of Canada, Toronto isn't always as welcoming, but I'd love to hear what your experience and your family's experience was coming to Toronto.

00:05:23:05 - 00:05:45:10
Nuno
That's an incredible observation. Yes, I think moving to a small town, Bracebridge, at 16, was a lot easier in many ways than it was moving to Canada with an entire family and different pressures too, because when I came, my wife didn't speak the language. She was leaving behind a pretty successful career in advertising in Brazil. There were a lot more baggages and pressures that came with the move itself.

00:05:45:12 - 00:06:09:00
Nuno
What made it unique to being Toronto versus that small town Canada, to your point, was while it was, everything was very foreign to my wife and family at the same time, everything was very accessible. So having access to different cultures and most importantly, actually a little piece of Brazil already existed in Canada. There's a part of Toronto where it's a lot of Portuguese bakeries, Portuguese grocery shops, Brazilian grocery shops, Brazilian bakeries and restaurants.

00:06:09:02 - 00:06:30:18
Nuno
So that helped her get acclimated to Canada a lot easier than not. But certainly, to your point, took a lot longer to get accustomed to the life in Canada at a big city where you don't have that neighbour just down the street, you can knock on the door of. It made it a little harder for us. But still, what I can say remain the same was the open-mindedness that Canadians have.

00:06:30:20 - 00:06:49:00
Nuno
And I think that's because of the very diverse cultural background that we all have in Canada remain the same. People were still very welcoming to the fact that she was learning the language, my kids were learning the language. We're all acclimated to the culture. The open-mindedness was still the same. The access to people was a bit more far removed because it was a bigger city.

00:06:49:02 - 00:06:57:03
Nuno
But people's innate open-mindedness and kindness were still pretty much the same as it were many, many years ago when I was in small town Bracebridge.

00:06:57:05 - 00:07:17:12
Alison
So as Canadians, we'd like to pride ourselves on being open-minded, welcoming and being a cultural mosaic. So for me, as a longstanding Canadian, it's really rewarding to hear that you, as someone newer to our country, found that both in your teen years, but also bringing your your family back to Canada ten years ago, so... happy 10th anniversary, by the way.

00:07:17:16 - 00:07:19:23
Nuno
Thank you. Thank you. I'm very proud to be here.

00:07:20:01 - 00:07:30:01
Alison
When we first met, you had mentioned that you were born into the creative agency world with family that worked in the business in Brazil. How do you think that foundation really influenced your career path?

00:07:30:03 - 00:07:55:10
Nuno
Well great question. Yeah, creativity and creative in general ran deep into my household. My dad and my older brother are both in the business back home, and not only are they in the business, they led the business in many, many ways in the sense that both of them founded agencies themselves, ran them very successfully, as well as had some very successful large holding company careers as well, establishing themselves in top of the mind game in Brazil, if you will.

00:07:55:12 - 00:08:14:14
Nuno
But the biggest difference what it was and was really interesting is that they were very separated and in very different ends of the spectrum from an advertising perspective. My father was always the relationship type of guy who knew through art, craft, words and communication how to touch the human heart. And he was really the art in the science.

00:08:14:14 - 00:08:32:06
Nuno
And my brother was the science in the art. He was always very much data, how to understand structures, technology. In the early days of the bubble of the internet in Brazil, he was already at the forefront of that. So growing up in that world, I guess, gave me this duality that was very interesting of how I interact with the world.

00:08:32:06 - 00:08:53:10
Nuno
But in advertising specifically, where I look at creativity with rigour, I look at storytelling, but with strategy and this notion of leveraging data, which was the language of businesses, how business are built around, but using then storytelling as a language of humans, and how you bring the two together to tell more, more powerful, engaging and important stories, if that makes sense.

00:08:53:12 - 00:09:13:15
Nuno
And ultimately, what I feel is that because creative and creativity was such a part of my upbringing and also runs in my veins day to day, that allows me today in this world that I'm in, to actually put the work second, if that makes sense. Meaning, of course, the creative expression of the work at the end of the day is how we as a marketing team at Sleep Country addresses ourselves to the world.

00:09:13:17 - 00:09:44:22
Nuno
But what I focus on today is actually empowering and nurturing the people behind the work, and trusting that by ensuring that they feel recognized, seen, heard, and incentivized and most importantly, greatly appreciated, that the work becomes an intelligent expression of all that they've built together to that point. And so I think I've gotten that benefit of being raised with creativity and making creativity not something I'm chasing, but rather a part of empowering people to deliver on it naturally, almost organically, if that makes sense.

00:09:45:00 - 00:10:06:06
Alison
Beyond making sense, that's the perfect recipe in many ways to succeed in marketing today. Equal measures of the right and left brain, appreciating that we are only successful as the teams and relationships and people that we mentor and help grow. So I hope you have had the chance to thank your parents for the incredible foundation that they've given you, as well as a passion for the career.

00:10:06:08 - 00:10:26:12
Nuno
Very true. My father and my mother both, and my dad even more so, were very maniacally focused on us learning different languages and knowledge because especially growing up in Brazil, their whole schtick always was, if we leave you with any sort of structure, we don't know, but if we leave you knowledge, we'll leave you access. And so that has stuck with me forever, and it's a way of guiding my life today.

00:10:26:14 - 00:10:43:08
Alison
We also really bonded on sharing our agency experience, and we both really loved the agency pace and thrived in it. So what ultimately convinced you to make the move to client side? And since making the move, what's been the biggest surprise after 25 years in agencies?

00:10:43:10 - 00:11:04:20
Nuno
That is so true, like and honestly, when I say I thrived in the agency pace, I really did. The pace, the pressure the magic of building something brand new from literally nothing. I loved it, and frankly, I never thought of myself as a quote unquote client. I just didn't. It wasn't the cards for me. My dad was a client, but I never really saw that side of him.

00:11:05:02 - 00:11:36:17
Nuno
My brother was never a client, so I was just an agency guy. But through my conversations with Stewart, who was my client for nearly four years before he became my boss, that's our CEO Stewart Schaefer, through our many conversations, and we spoke for about a year, there was specifically one moment towards the end of our conversation before I signed and moved over, in which he looked at me and he said, your function is going to be marketing, but your true role is helping me reshape the business along with your SOT peers. And having worked with Stewart as a client for so many years,

00:11:36:17 - 00:11:56:07
Nuno
at that point, I knew exactly what that meant in his eyes. And so when he said that, I knew it wasn't just a job offer, it was a calling. It was a very unique opportunity to be a part of reshaping something that was already successful into something even bigger, that had a longer lasting effect. And that, to me, was the way to seal the deal, if that makes sense.

00:11:56:09 - 00:12:20:17
Nuno
And what surprised me the most, quite frankly, Alison, is that I saw a lot more depth than I thought. Having spent 20 plus years on the agency side, on the outside, the brand side of the business may have seemed to me for the longest time, that it was all about structure and access layers and unnecessary complexity. And honestly, sometimes it is, I think as brands and businesses, we have to look at that at times too, and and admit it.

00:12:20:19 - 00:12:55:07
Nuno
But what I also realize is there's a lot of purpose behind it. I found a lot of true purpose behind every action. And what I mean by that is I found myself all of a sudden no longer looking to shape ideas, but rather shape outcomes. And that was a very different way of looking at things that surprised me quite a lot. And quite frankly, just the ability of opening up your world to an entire new learning set; supply chain, logistics, organizational design, product design, so on and so forth, and utilizing all of that knowledge to truly serve consumers and the audience in the other end, tailored to the needs and wants they have

00:12:55:07 - 00:12:57:18
Nuno
with more intent and meaning than I had before.

00:12:57:20 - 00:13:04:04
Alison
So building on that, what advice would you give to other marketing professionals who are considering making the move from agency to client?

00:13:04:06 - 00:13:22:15
Nuno
Yeah, that's the toughest one, because in Brazil we have a saying that says, if advice was any good, people would sell it to you. So take this from a very honest, truthful, personal experience perspective. But what I want to say is the reason why it took me so long to make the decisions, that I wanted to make sure I knew the why.

00:13:22:17 - 00:13:41:10
Nuno
I had incredible clarity on, as to why am I making this transition. And at the end of the day, I didn't want to leave the agency life because I was tired or because the pace was too intense. That's kind of obvious. But was the pace intense because of me or because of the environment? So I need to go searching for that answer.

00:13:41:12 - 00:13:58:07
Nuno
And at the end of the day, what I decided upon is that I wanted to leave because I was ready to have a different kind of impact to my career, a different one than the one that I had up until that point. And so what I can say is that brand side isn't easier, it's just a very different kind of heart, if that makes sense.

00:13:58:09 - 00:14:16:01
Nuno
All the wins are a lot slower, but they're also deeper. You will learn to think beyond the brief itself, you know, think about all the other things that entices a product to the consumer, be it operations, supply chain, org design, product development and so much more that you didn't touch before. And now it's part of your world.

00:14:16:03 - 00:14:38:08
Nuno
And that all opens up to a lot of learnings. And so at first, you're going to feel like that's far removed from your experience. You may have even a little bit of imposter syndrome. That's okay. I personally felt that. But if you're incredibly curious, collaborative and open and ready to grow in different ways and experience different things, it's going to be one of the most rewarding experiences you could possibly have.

00:14:38:08 - 00:14:56:20
Nuno
At least it was for me. And once you get there, though, what I would say is do not lose your agency instinct because the agency instinct of being biased for action and having resilience, of having grit and having hustle and an incredible "can do" mentality, more often than not, is what brands need to move forward.

00:14:57:00 - 00:15:21:12
Alison
That is absolutely excellent advice. Well said. So in many ways, the retail industry, of all the client side opportunities, retail is one of the faster-paced, challenging and ever-changing. We've certainly in Canada see some long standing retailers, HBC being the obvious most recent example, ultimately fail. Sleep Country is absolutely bucking the trend, hugely successful for 30 years.

00:15:21:12 - 00:15:29:08
Alison
While many other retailers haven't been, so what do you think some of the attributes are for Sleep Country's sustained success in Canada?

00:15:29:10 - 00:16:01:02
Nuno
I think a big part of it, quite frankly, is this entrepreneurial culture, mindset and spirit that's been with us from day one until now. The company was built, be it Christine Magee at Sleep Country, be it Dormez-Vous by Stewart Schaefer, by entrepreneurs, by heart. And so because of that mindset in nature, we have always been encouraged to believe in the power of curiosity, innovation, listening deeply to our customers and knowing to never be afraid to try something new.

00:16:01:04 - 00:16:35:19
Nuno
And that mindset hasn't really changed, in fact, has been evolved further, where we live to this motto of try, always, learn constantly, fail fast and iterate a lot faster. And I think that has been a bit of the secret sauce in many, many ways. However, there's another component to it, which is that obsession for consumer experience. If you think about it, for 30 plus years now, there hasn't been any other retailer in Canada, at least not of our size, that has been solely focused on sleep, solely focused on that experience that we can give Canadians of awakening themselves to the power of sleep.

00:16:36:00 - 00:16:56:21
Nuno
And I think that dedication has never gone away. And we look at every little moment through that lens. So from the way someone's researching online, to how they feel when they walk into our stores, or how they feel when they're going through our self-serve channels or website or our dream line to how their mattress gets delivered. Every single step, every single connection point is well thought out,

00:16:57:00 - 00:17:18:12
Nuno
to ensure that the reflection of what we believe in and the core values of our brand stay the same. And we never settle, Alison, we're always chasing for more. Because the biggest challenge of being the only one in the space to do this is that we set our own standards. And when you set your own standards, there's never an end line, there's always content, excuse me, constant pursuit of excellence.

00:17:18:14 - 00:17:41:15
Nuno
And lastly, but certainly not least, the people. Without a doubt, our people are the secret sauce. And we may say that folks may leave our stores and not know or remember what brand they buy, but they know exactly who they bought it from. Because the folks on the front line, the folks serving you in the store, through our customer service or through the delivery system, they are the true representation of the brand and how you engage with the brand.

00:17:41:20 - 00:17:45:12
Nuno
And we pay incredible attention in detail to that.

00:17:45:14 - 00:18:07:20
Alison
Our last purchase was from Sleep Country, and you're absolutely right. The calibre of knowledge with your retail staff and how consumer-focused they are is, a real differentiator. So congratulations. Because having worked in retail myself, that's not always easy to deliver. Now, acquisitions have also played a key role in your growth with Casper, Hush, Endy, Silk and Snow,

00:18:07:22 - 00:18:13:01
Alison
And now Simba Sleep in the UK. So I'd love you to share a bit more about what led to that strategy.

00:18:13:03 - 00:18:42:00
Nuno
Yeah, absolutely. Again, I think it comes down to that innate culture of innovation and deep customer focus. And I think while I wasn't at Sleep Country, obviously, through all of those acquisitions, I sat in the sidelines as a partner of Sleep Country, observing what was happening. And I think it all comes from this deep belief that we always had that there's no one size fits all solution to how Canadians sleep, quite frankly. And be it their needs, their lifestyle, their preferences, they're all different.

00:18:42:02 - 00:18:59:01
Nuno
And so in our minds, our job has always been and continues to be to meet Canadians where they are and help them make their journey to better asleep, quite frankly, more attainable, and more accessible. And no matter how and where they want to shop or choose to shop, we want to be there for them. And for us,

00:18:59:01 - 00:19:27:19
Nuno
what that meant was building a true brand portfolio that could offer different value propositions, different voices, and different paths, while always being rooted in the same notion of quality, trust, with parallel expertise and innovation. So be it Casper, Endy, Hush and Silk and Snow or now, Simba, to your point. While each of them serves a distinct audience, they are all united by a shared commitment to helping people sleep better day in, day out.

00:19:27:20 - 00:19:35:15
Alison
You know your recent acquisition of Simba Sleep in the UK is fascinating. Why was the UK selected rather than the typical choice of the U.S.?

00:19:35:17 - 00:19:53:13
Nuno
Yeah, I can definitely touch on that. Look, when we looked at a path for expansion, if you will, we didn't want to follow necessarily a pre-written playbook. I think we wanted to do what we always have done, which is to lead with the same purpose and precision that our business was built on. So the UK itself stood out to us for a few different reasons.

00:19:53:18 - 00:20:21:01
Nuno
I think first and foremost, a very digitally innovative advance as well as branch forward market. And in the case of Simba specifically, Simba was already a high- performing, highly-recognized and leading brand in the space. Of course, they had a pretty strong, already direct consumer presence, as well as a fantastic product and a pretty loyal customer base. But I think for us, Alison, quite frankly, and most importantly, the shared values that they carry, were core to the same values that we carry.

00:20:21:05 - 00:20:43:07
Nuno
So again, the focus on innovation, exceptional service, genuine passion and helping people sleep better is something that gravitated us towards Simba. And our CEO always likes to say that we are always razor-focused on developing and delivering exceptional customer experience when it comes to sleep globally. We don't look only within our walls, we want to look outside of our walls.

00:20:43:09 - 00:21:05:15
Nuno
The UK made a lot of sense because of that. And what we saw in Simba was not only just a great business, but was actually a pretty perfect cultural and a strategic fit because it's led by fantastic people who cares deeply about what they do in the experience they provide to consumers. And it gave us to a point a meaningful pathway to expansion while allowing us to stay true to our DNA.

00:21:05:17 - 00:21:17:23
Nuno
It doesn't mean we have ruled out any other expansions into any other regions, but at the moment, it just felt that both the UK and Simba were very much aligned to our core values. And as a business, as a brand and as people, it made a ton of sense for us to invest in it.

00:21:18:01 - 00:21:25:10
Alison
And for our listeners, I know we're all going to be curious to see, is this the start of a truly global Canadian sleep company?

00:21:25:12 - 00:21:44:10
Nuno
Yeah, I guess the short answer is yes, because now we are truly global. And we do believe that sleep is universal, is a universal benefit that anyone can take advantage of in the right way. But how we serve people has to be local. And we just talked about this notion that people remember who they spoke to, not what product they bought.

00:21:44:14 - 00:22:09:01
Nuno
So while we continue to expand the view of sleep as a global thing, we want to be very respectful of the local nuances of each market and how we continue to respect those as we expand our operation. And we are very incredibly proud to be Canadian. So it is incredible that a Canadian company, that to your point, has been here for 30 years in a very challenging retail landscape, is not only strong in Canada, but now growing its presence in a meaningful way.

00:22:09:03 - 00:22:32:02
Nuno
And for us, Alison, quite frankly, it wasn't really chasing just scale. It was about building a meaningful, customer-focused global experience and one that was built on trust, on excellence, on innovation, and a laser focus on that customer experience and delivering better sleep and not just transactions. That for us was a driver. But the short answer is yes.

00:22:32:04 - 00:22:45:01
Alison
So now let's switch gears a little bit. I would love to talk about your exciting new campaign that literally just launched this week and features Eugene Levy as Sleep Daddy. So can you share a bit about how the concept came about?

00:22:45:03 - 00:23:02:16
Nuno
Yes, it's finally out. And hopefully going well. Frankly, what we did, was we took a giant step back as a team and we asked ourselves, what's really going on with our relationship with sleep? Because if you think about it, your relationship with sleep is truly the only one that lasts your entire life when your very first breath.

00:23:02:18 - 00:23:19:18
Nuno
And so when we asked ourselves that question, what we realize is that when you're when you're a kid, it's a lot easier to watch over your relationship with sleep because there's someone always watching over it for you, be it to tell you when it's time to go to bed, to not snack late at night, to sleep enough, and to be well-rested.

00:23:19:19 - 00:23:41:02
Nuno
But as an adult, especially in today's economy, and the pressure environment, when we start to neglect our relationship with sleep, we become terrible partners to our sleep. We will deprioritize sleep over a number of things, from watching that Netflix series a little too late, or just that last grind for work, or that midnight oil that we're burning, or purely stress.

00:23:41:02 - 00:24:07:21
Nuno
Because at the end of the day, we are all youths and we at  Sleep Country, and all of our family of brands recognize that understand that. In fact, we do a lot of surveys and researches throughout the country every year, and the most recent study that we just launched actually talks about the fact that only 16% of Canadians, that's one sixth, describe their relationship with sleep as very good and a whopping seven out of ten Canadians actually say they wish they could actually get better sleep.

00:24:07:23 - 00:24:33:04
Nuno
And that's very problematic because sleep is with nutrition, with mental health, with physical health, a core component of how you as a human wake up and perform every day. Right? And so for us, we've played a massive role in helping Canadians rekindle their relationship with sleep. We wanted to create a voice that felt a bit provocative intentionally, with Sleep Daddy as a notion, but most importantly felt warm, trustworthy and familiar.

00:24:33:07 - 00:24:59:13
Nuno
Somebody that could help you really rekindle a relationship and prioritize it back in your daily lives. And that's where Eugene Levy, our Sleep Daddy, really came in. We wanted someone who was iconically Canadian and that felt trustworthy, but yet very familiar and disarming and almost a father figure, but also funny. The kind of person that can really cut through that noise without ever delivering as a sermon, without ever getting on a soapbox,

00:24:59:13 - 00:25:17:00
Nuno
If that makes sense. We wanted to make it very relatable, and we worked very hard on the execution, along with our agency partners, to make it feel very relatable, to make it feel very human, and to be very rooted in everyday distractions that we all face. And instead of telling you in a judgmental way that you shouldn't, is to say, we get it.

00:25:17:01 - 00:25:36:04
Nuno
But how about looking at it from a different perspective, and we can help you do that. And that's where, of course, I got to give Publicis and their team an incredible shout out for continuously pushing us to be more intentional with the way we do advertising and marketing. And from the insight to the creative idea to the execution, they did it masterfully and they were incredible partners to have on that journey.

00:25:37:11 - 00:25:56:11
Alison
That's great. I'm excited to see it. And I can absolutely relate to being one of the seven in ten Canadians who would love to get more sleep. We're increasingly hearing about, you know, how mission critical it is, all the health benefits or the personal and professional benefits, and knowing that when you can't get enough sleep, it adds stress to it. So I'm looking forward to Sleep Daddy's

00:25:56:11 - 00:26:09:04
Alison
advice and helping me become one of the three in ten, instead of one of the seven in ten. I'm also really glad that the days of bravado, where people were saying, I can survive on four hours sleep and still be productive, are hopefully behind us.

00:26:09:06 - 00:26:20:08
Nuno
I couldn't agree more. That's not true ever, in any case. A great night's sleep is a great remedy, it's not perfect for everything, but it does get you on the pathway to it.

00:26:20:10 - 00:26:37:04
Alison
Absolutely. So, Nuno, you've had an absolutely outstanding marketing career that spans both agencies and brands, and I know our listeners would benefit from learning from your journey. So I would like to close off our discussion today by having you share your top advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:26:37:06 - 00:26:58:18
Nuno
I would say stay curious. Curiosity has been to me, my entire life, a humongous driver of every decision I've ever made and quite frankly, after that, find people who make you better. Find people who see you before anybody else does, and hang on to those people and invest in them, and vice versa. And quite frankly, Alison, I never look to chase titles.

00:26:58:18 - 00:27:19:06
Nuno
I really chase purpose. I know it sounds very easy to say, but it was never focus on becoming any specific thing, an SVP of that or chief of that. I just want to do the right thing with great people and be proud of what I was doing. But also don't buy, because I think right now that's happening a lot, into the gloom and doom of our industry.

00:27:19:07 - 00:27:53:23
Nuno
It's not an easy time to be in advertising, especially if you're on the agency side of things. Our industry is evolving. It's true. It's more complex than ever before. It's more difficult to work in than ever before. But marketing is still one of the most powerful growth-drivers there are in any company anywhere in the world. And it's how we connect, what we build to real lives and the people that we serve. And at a time where data, technology, performance, AI, which are all languages of business, seems to be at the forefront and dominating the topics of conversation than ever before,

00:27:54:01 - 00:28:15:02
Nuno
brand, storytelling, the language of humans has never been more powerful. So stay curious on who are the humans you want to speak to, and why would they care to listen to you? And that will always drive you to something more meaningful. And that's not fluff in my mind's eye. That's just looking for impact, is to stay close to that.

00:28:15:03 - 00:28:34:02
Nuno
And if you always staying close to that curiosity and understanding the human on the other side of the equation, you're going to find meaning in what you do, be it inside or outside of the agency walls, the creative department walls, the brand walls. Find the human you want to connect with, and you'll always find meaning in what you're doing.

00:28:34:04 - 00:28:55:22
Alison
That is outstanding advice, especially on the positivity side. You're so right that we need to be more proud about the mission critical role that the marketing profession, whether you're agency side or brand side, we have a mission critical role in building brands, building businesses and contributing to Canadians' economy. So, Nuno, it's been an absolute pleasure having our conversation today.

00:28:55:22 - 00:29:03:19
Alison
Thank you so much. You're clearly been very busy launching a new campaign. So I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to spend with us.

00:29:03:21 - 00:29:20:15
Nuno
Thank you, Alison, and thank you to the listeners. Thank you to the CMA, the CMA Connect team. It's important work that you guys do for the industry. And I couldn't be prouder to be here and more humbled to be here. I really, really appreciate you.

00:29:20:17 - 00:29:33:06
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

On this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, speaks with Canadians Zoë Boudreau, Associate Creative Director of Design, and Jesse Shaw, Senior Motion Designer, both from Rethink, about winning Canada's first Young Lions Design Competition gold at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. They reveal how a challenging 24-hour brief on Indian comic book history—completely outside their expertise—pushed them to implement integrated speech bubbles and motion systems that no other team explored. Hear how their complementary skills, iterative approach, and ability to maintain humour under extreme pressure turned unfamiliar constraints into gold-winning creativity. See their Young Lion gold-winning work here.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:01
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:03 - 00:00:48:05
Alison
Welcome back to CMA Connect. Today we're bringing you a truly special conversation straight from the heart of the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. Every year, the Young Lions competition challenges the brightest emerging talent from around the world, really pushing them to innovate under incredible pressure. This year, on the last day of what was already a very inspiring week, Canada truly shone on that global stage.

00:00:48:07 - 00:01:09:03
Alison
So I am thrilled to be joined today by the talented young Canadian creative team, Zoe Boudreau, an associate Creative Director of Design, and Jesse Shaw, a senior motion designer who not only competed but brought home the coveted Gold Lion for design. So I don't normally do a standing ovation in the beginning of a podcast, but guys, you totally deserve a standing ovation.

00:01:09:03 - 00:01:12:07
Alison
So super well done.

00:01:12:09 - 00:01:13:11
Jesse
Thank you so much.

00:01:13:13 - 00:01:14:07
Zoe
Thank you.

00:01:14:12 - 00:01:35:11
Alison
Now this incredible achievement really is a testament to your vision, certainly a testament to your hard work. It also highlights the important role of The Globe and Mail, a Canadian Marketing Association member, who champion and lead the Canadian Young Lions competition here in Canada and are really playing an important role for helping foster the next generation of creative leaders right here at home.

00:01:35:17 - 00:01:46:08
Alison
So to all our listeners, get ready to be inspired as we hear directly from Canada's winning team about their journey to gold. Zoe and Jesse. Huge welcome to the CMA Connect podcast. 

Zoe
Thank you.

00:01:46:12 - 00:01:47:17
Jesse
Thank you so much.

00:01:47:19 - 00:01:56:15
Alison
The first question I'm going to ask is, who was the first person you reached out to back home once you found out you'd want? Zoe, do you want to go first?

00:01:56:17 - 00:02:10:19
Zoe
Ooh. Honestly, I think it was probably my boyfriend. I think was the first one, but he was dead asleep, so he did not find out until the morning. But that was definitely the first person I texted. that night.

00:02:10:19 - 00:02:15:11
Alison
That nine hour time zone wouldn't have worked to your advantage on that one, coming from Kelowna. And Jesse, what about you?

00:02:15:16 - 00:02:41:05
Jesse
Yeah. It was. I mean, I'd like to say it was my wife, but, no, it was my mom because she texted me, like, five minutes after we won. Like, trying to act really  casual like she hadn't been awake all night. Saying, like, oh, have you heard anything? So I FaceTimed or just with the, with the award, and it was fun watching her, like, recognize in real time what she was reading, because I think it was exactly, it was like one in the morning or something.

00:02:41:05 - 00:02:45:21
Alison
So I think your wife is can understand that. 

00:02:45:23 - 00:02:52:18
Jesse
Yeah, she, she, she woke up to the message and she seemed pretty excited when, when she found out. But yeah.

00:02:52:20 - 00:03:17:13
Alison
That is very cool. Well, needless to say, taking home a Gold Lion in design at Cannes is a monumental achievement, especially in the Young Lions competition, which has a very intense 24-hour brief. So huge congratulations, and I'd love you to walk me through the initial moments when you first saw the brief through to coming up with the award winning idea and executing it under such an incredibly tight time constraints.

00:03:17:14 - 00:03:19:11
Alison
So who wants to kick it off?

00:03:19:12 - 00:03:40:08
Zoe
Yeah, I can kick off like the brief aspect. We were in the this area. We were like eating, because we knew that was something we needed to do before getting into the competition. And we got briefed at 4:00, but we got the briefs sent to us, I think it was at 3:30. Yeah. And we forgot about that, that it was going to be sent to us.

00:03:40:08 - 00:04:07:14
Zoe
So as we were eating, it got sent through our email and we're like, the brief! We should probably read this. And we really were like, honestly, I was kind of like surprised or like, really like, scared of the brief. The brief was really tricky. And I think that Jesse and I were just talking about it, and my face was like, oh no, this is like a really hard brief.

00:04:07:14 - 00:04:29:00
Zoe
But we got some really good advice from one of our other Canadian Young Lions saying that if it's a hard breathe, it's actually a huge opportunity because everyone's going to see it as a hard brief. So you can just like go hard. If that's the case. So that was pretty intense at the the up front because we were like, oh, this is actually going to be like an all-nighter.

00:04:29:01 - 00:04:49:01
Jesse
Yeah I think yeah. So I think it's called the solarium, like the cafe, and you know, really the memory is just having, you know, the, the hot sun just beating down on us and really thinking like, okay, this is, yeah. This isn't going to be fun. This is, this is not going to be a cakewalk.

00:04:49:03 - 00:05:11:20
Jesse
And I think kind of recognizing like in that moment. Yeah. That, you know, we got in here representing Canada and that it wasn't going to get to trust that we were here on our own merit. But, you know, you see something like a brief as maybe outside of our boundaries as it was. And yeah, kind of recognizing that we're going to need to dig deep.

00:05:11:22 - 00:05:31:22
Jesse
You know, it's it's fun talking about it now, but I was definitely texting a few people, right when we got it. You can definitely see that the decline in like, sanity and just the stress really flow out. So I just want to, I just want to say I appreciate it. Everyone that had to listen to me freak out online.

00:05:32:00 - 00:05:44:02
Alison
Well, and the, being in the solarium, something like 32 degree heat, sunshine takes the whole concept of pressure cooker to a whole other level. Now what was it about the brief that made it so tricky and challenging?

00:05:44:04 - 00:06:21:20
Zoe
I'd have to say that, well, the brief was making an exhibition in India on Indian comic books. But not just that. It's like the history of storytelling or visual storytelling that leads to comic books. So there were so many layers as part of the brief. And on top of that, we had to name it. And I think the naming part was the thing that we were really freaked out about because we're not copywriters by trade, but now we like to pretend that we are because we we,

00:06:21:22 - 00:06:26:14
Zoe
I think we came up with a pretty sick name. Yeah. Go ahead. Jesse.

00:06:26:16 - 00:06:27:00
Jesse
Oh, no, no.

00:06:27:03 - 00:06:54:11
Jesse
No, I mean, it's it's exactly that I think in the Canadian for the Canadian portion of the Young Lions competition, the brief was around a biking event. That was something like a lot of, you know, experience with attending bike events. It was a space that I was really comfortable and interested in. So we kind of felt, you know, leading into that, that maybe we got lucky or that, you know, the things just sort of aligned for us to really hit the ground running there.

00:06:54:13 - 00:07:23:06
Jesse
And that just wasn't the case. You know, unfortunately, just recognizing our own paths that just didn't have a ton of cultural touch points to the history of sequential storytelling in India, so that this wasn't going to be something that we just luck into. It was going to be a lot of work. But definitely, you know, on the other side of that, realizing that it was, you know, a super cool and just feel super fortunate for having that opportunity to learn about the space because that was something that we had no idea about going into it.

00:07:23:06 - 00:07:31:16
Jesse
And on the other side now, it's something that I think during the presentation portion, we were like genuinely enthusiastic about championing it because it's incredible.

00:07:31:22 - 00:07:46:18
Alison
Well, that's such a great testament to the profession, because there are times, I've been agency side, I've been brand side, and there are times where you get a client, or you get a brief. It's like, oh, perfect. I have a passion for this. I have an interest for this. But most of the time it's like, okay, that's fascinating.

00:07:46:18 - 00:08:04:07
Alison
I don't know much about the market. I don't know much about the brand. I don't know much about the consumer and how you have to dig in and learn, and the fact that you dug in and learned in a very, very compressed time period and emerge with gold, that has to be even more gratifying. So huge, huge congratulations.

00:08:04:13 - 00:08:05:10
Jesse
Appreciate that.

00:08:05:12 - 00:08:18:17
Alison
So you've shared a bit about the significant creative hurdle that you were encountering with the brief. I'd love to hear, how did you leverage each other's strengths or challenge each other's thinking to overcome it? And Jesse, why don't you kick things off?

00:08:18:18 - 00:08:43:22
Jesse
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think one thing that is maybe unique to our partnership, it was because we were put together as a team under the recommendation of our boss, Hans. A lot of teams designed specifically in Young Lions will be put together because, you know, they're two graphic designers. It's a graphic design competition so, you know, why wouldn't you want two people that are, you know, trained in the same discipline, working together?

00:08:43:22 - 00:09:05:13
Jesse
I think what's unique about our partnership is Zoe's trained in graphic design and I'm a motion designer. So when we approach, thinking, and approach, I guess conceptual identity thinking, we're coming at it from two different angles. I think in the moment there's things that, you know, maybe I'll think are obvious or Zoe we will think is obvious, and maybe the other person misses that.

00:09:05:13 - 00:09:35:22
Jesse
And I think it's nice because it's a bit more of a holistic approach to identity building that other teams, you know, maybe, might not have. So almost immediately, you know, we're thinking about a system larger than maybe what's on the brief. And I think in doing so, we're able to kind of like go big, recognize all the opportunities and then hone it down to sort of sort of what is the core idea and then hit the ground there.

00:09:36:00 - 00:09:38:08
Jesse
And I think that's kind of how we started.

00:09:38:10 - 00:09:54:15
Alison
It is super helpful to have different perspectives. And to your point, like really, it really helped broaden your approach and your thinking. Now, Zoe, you mentioned earlier that you also now can count yourselves as copywriters because part of this was coming up with the name and you said it was a sick name. So what was the name?

00:09:56:11 - 00:10:20:15
Zoe
Yeah, the name was IN FRAME, and I actually have to give credit to Jesse because he came up with this, in the sense that IN is like the shorthand for India and then frames is kind of like the device that are used within comic books, like the paneling and then the whole system is based around bringing Indian comic books centre frame.

00:10:20:17 - 00:10:35:09
Zoe
So then we have the comics and the, the artwork living within the IN as a framing device. So it's like this kind of full circle kind of identity within that. So that, that's definitely goes out to Jesse's IN.

00:10:35:11 - 00:10:35:23
Jesse
I mean,

00:10:36:00 - 00:11:04:05
Jesse
I'll say it's a, it's a 50/50 thing. I, when we first got the brief, when we left the Palais and we were walking back to our hotel. Yeah, we just started brainstorming. I think it's not a uncommon thing for people to recommend walking and brainstorming as like a really fruitful method for the idea building. And one of the ways they were defining this history of comics and visual storytelling was referred to as sequential storytelling.

00:11:04:07 - 00:11:20:04
Jesse
So I really locked on to just, you know, how many, what sort of phrases does it, sequence or sequential come up in? So I think I had a working title called IN Sequence that was, I think maybe what we, and then we split apart when we got to the hotel for about an hour to do some brainstorming.

00:11:20:04 - 00:11:32:09
Jesse
And then when I came back, Zoe, you were the one that had mentioned that you'd seen frame come up so much. So I think from there we kind of, it was a, it was a, it was a team effort. I did not want to take full credit for that.

00:11:32:10 - 00:11:34:22
Zoe
One word each.

00:11:35:00 - 00:11:39:19
Jesse
Exactly! And actually if we're going by word, by a letter count, you actually did more work.

00:11:39:19 - 00:11:42:20
Zoe
Letter count,  yeah.

00:11:42:22 - 00:12:01:10
Alison
And for our listeners, I know they're going to want to see the work, so we will link in the comments so that they can actually see your Gold Lion and your work as well. So looking back at the work, with just a little bit of distance, what's one element or specific design choice that you believe really elevated your entry above the rest?

00:12:01:12 - 00:12:29:16
Zoe
I think there's two pieces. There is a moment where we were dealing with like the system, and we had this framing device that we were excited about, but then Jesse discovered that underneath the N, there's this notch. And what happens is that there was an ability or an opportunity to put a speech bubble underneath it, which is very common within comic book storytelling, is the the speech bubble on and all that kind of stuff.

00:12:29:16 - 00:12:59:22
Zoe
And we had this opportunity to put the artwork within the framing device, but then also have them talking. And so we were able to have the characters speak within the system, which felt like really playful and interesting and, and no one else used speech bubbles at all, which I was surprised within any of the other work. So I think that was our first unlocking moment of making something really interesting and robust within a system.

00:13:00:04 - 00:13:23:05
Zoe
And then, we were the only like, from what I could tell the team that had motion or it had a robust motion system. So I think that was like the cherry on top was having this system that had something that was interesting with the speech bubble and then layering on top this like very great motion system as an aside.

00:13:23:07 - 00:13:53:12
Jesse
Doing the motion system, like, that was super fun. And I do, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't disagree that is definitely maybe a differentiation point in comparison. But I do think our ability to work and iterate quickly just allowed us to sort of spin out so many different options so quickly that, you know, then when we were presenting to the judges, we weren't feeling like, you know, this is the, this is the idea we came up with 11 this morning and it's the best thing that we could do.

00:13:53:14 - 00:14:18:12
Jesse
I think an approach that our company Rethink really champions, that our bosses really champion, is this idea of, you know, 1 or 100. So you don't know if your first idea or your hundredth idea is the best one. And the only way to find out is to make 100 ideas. So in that, we were, you know, able to kind of build out, I don't want to say we didn't do 100 ideas, but I think, you know, we we went easy on ourselves.

00:14:18:12 - 00:14:43:11
Jesse
It was 24 hours. So, but there were, you know, multiple different inroads. And I think recognizing pretty early on just because of our, the speed that we're able to work out, that the idea that we were presenting wasn't the only thing we'd come up with. It was the best idea that we'd come up with. So there's a confidence that comes from that, and it's an approach that I don't know is reflected in other aspects of the industry.

00:14:43:13 - 00:14:45:10
Jesse
So super grateful for that.

00:14:45:12 - 00:15:07:09
Alison
That iterative approach certainly has served Rethink incredibly well on the 5th year, 5th year in a row, I believe, at Cannes, being the independent agency. So it's definitely serving you and the organization incredibly well. So in going through all of that iteration, how obvious was it to both of you that this idea was the winning idea?

00:15:07:11 - 00:15:26:00
Zoe
I don't know if it was obvious to me at that point. I think Jesse was like, he he knew. He had the feeling. He was like, oh, we did it. We nailed it. And I don't know if I was more, not pessimistic, but like, unsure. I was like, I don't know, like this is a global stage. Like, who knows?

00:15:26:00 - 00:15:50:00
Zoe
Like someone could have just like come out at it at a totally different angle and like, so I was a bit unsure. And I think it was mostly because it felt like the subject matter was just so different from what we've dealt with in the past. So it was like, I think when we were watching everyone at the, at the end, at the terrace, when they were doing the big reveal.

00:15:50:04 - 00:16:10:05
Zoe
I think that's when it kind of set in. Then I was like, okay, like, maybe we have a chance and then we got shortlisted and then we're like, oh, okay, I think, I think we might have won. So that was like, it took me some time to like go around until I felt more confident with it.

00:16:10:07 - 00:16:32:06
Jesse
I think I also don't want to act like I'm the not pessimistic one because, our work that we won the Canadian Division with, I was very like, basically until we submitted it, I was like, I don't see the I don't see this like it's it's interesting, but I don't see what's so good about it. So I would say we're 50/50 on...

00:16:32:08 - 00:16:52:01
Jesse
And I mean that's good. I think that's you know, that's sort of, you know, having someone like a partner that's checking you in that way and pushing you. Like when we were in Cannes, that was making me advocate for the importance of what we were hitting on. The strength of the idea. You know, if someone says, you know, I don't I don't really see this,

00:16:52:03 - 00:17:19:13
Jesse
That's something that you immediately, it forces you to advocate for the idea. And I know that was, you know, it really helped, even later into the presentation portion crystallize what was special in my mind about the whole thing. And the whole identity. And I think this was the case for the Canadian portion where I felt like, Zoe, you definitely had a way better vision for what it was going to be, but I was the one that was sort of saying, like, I don't see this.

00:17:19:13 - 00:17:34:05
Jesse
I don't, I don't get it yet. But like I, and I think that's the thing and I think this is a great example, you know, like a good team is that, you know, I didn't see it, but I trusted you and it worked out all right. And I think you trusted me. Maybe you didn't actually, I don't know, until we won.

00:17:34:05 - 00:17:34:19
Jesse
You're like, okay.

00:17:34:23 - 00:17:56:07
Zoe
We were out of time at that point, I had to trust you. No, I think that Jesse's like, right on. I think half of, like, the competition is like, you have to have a good rapport with your teammate. And like, we have a lot of trust and like, faith with each other that we can kind of like, you know, say the thing, which I think is really important.

00:17:56:08 - 00:18:14:18
Zoe
Like, we already had this like established relationship and like, we were like buddy, buddy, like all Cannes and like had a great time. And I think that's like, that's half the battle. It's just like making sure that you and your, your partner in this are like, good.

00:18:14:20 - 00:18:37:00
Jesse
Oh goodness. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't imagine doing such a stressful competition, and you know, working with someone that isn't, that isn't enjoying some aspect or isn't like able to see the lightness in how intense and like just just being able to have a laugh during this whole thing. Yeah. It's so important.

00:18:37:02 - 00:19:01:13
Zoe
Yeah. I was gonna say that we had like, our windows open and we were doing it at the hotel, like the whole competition within that 24 hours. And apparently one of the other Canadians that were also at their hotel could just, like, hear us laughing all night. But he said it was a good thing because it made them like, I don't know, just like feel at least someone was happy because I think they were having a stressful moment.

00:19:01:15 - 00:19:10:02
Zoe
We were just like obnoxiously laughing all night. So hopefully we didn't keep anyone up in the hotel too much.

00:19:10:04 - 00:19:31:18
Alison
You both share such powerful ingredients for a successful partnership. Absolutely trust, having the familiarity and respect for each other's expertise, and being willing to call each other on stuff and say, you know what? I don't get it. Yeah. Why do you why are you so sold on this particular concept? And Jesse, to your point, that helps you sort of streamline and focus your thinking on why do I think this is so great

00:19:31:18 - 00:19:48:01
Alison
if Zoe's not seeing it yet. And then humour, like in the in the biggest adversity, when you're under the most intense pressure, being able to laugh and just have that emotional release and remind yourself, it's like, yeah, this is stressful, but we're in the south of France competing for like the Young Lions competition on a global stage.

00:19:48:01 - 00:20:09:09
Alison
It's pretty damn good too. So just to remind yourselves of that, it sounds like those were all amazing ingredients that contributed to your success. So I was in the auditorium when your win was announced. So I was a thrilled Canadian. But I'd love to hear from you what it was like when you heard you won.

00:20:09:11 - 00:20:18:04
Zoe
I think it was a very visceral experience. It was a full body. Jesse screamed. 

00:20:18:06 - 00:20:37:09
Jesse
Yeah. I got like really, really excited. I do want to go on record, if there's anyone that I like punched in the back of the head to, like, get through the crowd, I just want to say I'm sorry. I kind of had blinders on and we didn't position ourselves well in the group. So we were like, right in the thick of things.

00:20:37:09 - 00:20:49:03
Jesse
And I think maybe me shouting really loudly sort of spooked a couple people. So everyone was kind of turning around and like, I knew where we needed to be. So I was clawing my way through the crowd.

00:20:49:05 - 00:20:54:06
Zoe
And I was just right behind him, so I didn't have to deal with any of that, which was nice.

00:20:54:08 - 00:21:07:17
Jesse
I want to go on record and apologize to any of the other countries that we might have, physically tapped along the way. I appreciate you, and I hope you understand. And you're welcome to come visit us in Canada whenever you like.

00:21:07:19 - 00:21:14:09
Alison
I think they will more than understand. And you were a very polite Canadian with that answer. So what have you done to celebrate the.

00:21:14:15 - 00:21:41:13
Jesse
Something that we recognized is that we're both, like pretty, we both enjoy habit and routine. And I think, you know, having like a consistent routine, at least in the day to day, is one of the things I see is like being effective to coming up with, you know, good ideas and good creativity. Sort of removing the friction points, all other aspects of life. You know, I mean, obviously this is dependant. Unfortunately, we did operate the exact same in Cannes.

00:21:41:15 - 00:21:50:14
Jesse
So we ate at the same sandwich place. And when I say like, sandwich place, it was a bar that like served a sandwich that we just found on the first day.

00:21:50:14 - 00:21:51:20
Zoe
It was a panini.

00:21:51:23 - 00:22:10:18
Jesse
It was a panini. Sorry. It was a panini. So we ate there, what, like 4 to 5 days of the seven days we were there. So we knew that when we won, we had to go back and tell the guy that we've won and eat a celebratory sandwich. So that was, that was the immediate thing. And, you know, he was he was excited.

00:22:10:18 - 00:22:14:08
Jesse
I don't think he really got what was going on. But you know.

00:22:14:09 - 00:22:29:17
Zoe
We like celebrated him. His name was Benjamin. And we came in like every day and was like, hey. But I think like he just like accepted that we arrived and like, liked him. But yeah, I don't know. He was just like, I'm just doing my job.

00:22:29:18 - 00:22:47:17
Jesse
Yeah, we were sort of forcing our personalities on this guy. I think we really built him up to be a real figure in our lives during our time there, and he, you know, was happy that we paid the €8 for a panini, but probably couldn't have cared less. No, he was happy that we were there to celebrate.

00:22:47:22 - 00:22:52:14
Jesse
So that was, yeah, the immediate thing. And then obviously, you know, calling our partners.

00:22:52:16 - 00:23:02:01
Alison
I love the celebratory panini. And you created that like daily touchpoint, right. Like that's, way to go Ben for having a role in Canada's gold.

00:23:02:01 - 00:23:06:14
Jesse
He's alive in our heart. He's an honorary Canadian. Whenever he wants to come here, happily celebrate that guy?

00:23:06:19 - 00:23:08:16
Alison
You're gonna have a lot of visitors.

00:23:08:18 - 00:23:12:06
Jesse
I'm excited. It's, It's a beautiful country, I love to show it off.

00:23:12:09 - 00:23:19:06
Alison
I couldn't agree more. So what have you learned about yourselves going through this process that you will carry forward in your careers?

00:23:19:08 - 00:23:55:23
Zoe
I think the biggest thing that really helped us with the win was distilling the idea into, like, one thing and making the case for it in the presentation. I think we didn't understand the value of like the presentation aspect before going in, until we did some of the boot camps with The Globe and Mail. So I think like distilling the idea into like this one thing and then framing like the colour, the type and like everything back to that main point was such a great way to sell it.

00:23:56:01 - 00:24:20:17
Zoe
And I think that's really what helped us in the end, was having just such a like, easy thing to understand. And I think that is one piece in terms of the process I want to like keep doing throughout all our projects, because I think it just makes it way more understandable for people. Like I imagine with like clients and stuff, who maybe don't work with that stuff all the time in terms of design.

00:24:20:19 - 00:24:23:07
Zoe
But that's probably the biggest piece for me at least.

00:24:23:09 - 00:24:46:04
Jesse
Yeah. And I think on my end, which is speaking as a motion graphics designer, like it's, it's a role that's traditionally more technical focused. And I sort of expected for my career, you know, a large portion of my career, I would basically just be, you know, making, being told what to make being. Yeah, serving a more technical role in a production capacity.

00:24:46:06 - 00:25:15:21
Jesse
I think this entire experience has made me recognize that I have a real capacity for, you know, getting up and advocating for the importance of design, the importance of motion in identity systems, and really just recognizing my own enthusiasm for what I do and what we do. So, yeah, really building a lot of confidence from that. And I say this in that, you know, I think it's something that our boss has seen in us the entire time.

00:25:15:21 - 00:25:50:18
Jesse
I think it unfortunately can take, you know, winning something like that. You know, you can, someone can tell you that, you know, you should be doing these things. But it's opportunities like this that make you realize your own ability to kind of push past, you know, your comfort zone. I don't know why I wasn't thinking it was something I was able to do, but, you know, forcing yourself to get up in front of a group of people nationally and then internationally and advocate for the importance of something you've made, the confidence that comes from that and the confidence that comes from honestly winning, shortlisting, just being there is huge.

00:25:50:19 - 00:26:07:06
Jesse
And I yeah, I really recommend anyone who, you know, thinks that they might not be able to do that or that might not be something that they'd be interested in or just doesn't sound like them, to give it a go, because there's really the only way to find out is by doing it. And that's sort of my case.

00:26:07:06 - 00:26:10:13
Jesse
I, I didn't know I had it in me, and it's fun now.

00:26:10:15 - 00:26:47:01
Alison
That's great advice and Jesse, it's a great for your career. It's also great for the Canadian advertising profession that you now realize it's not just about you executing other people's ideas. You clearly are incredibly capable of coming up with great creativity on your own and in partnership with Zoe. So that's amazing to hear. And then Zoe your call out about the Globe and Mail Boot Camps, I love the role the Globe is playing in really helping nurture amazing talent like the two of you and across the broad marketing ecosystem, and helping set you up for success by giving you those boot camps and that training going into the national and the global competitions.

00:26:47:01 - 00:26:49:10
Alison
So huge shout out to the Globe as well.

00:26:49:12 - 00:27:10:05
Jesse
I think they said we were the only, one of the few countries that has one of those boot camp systems before, and I mean, the results speak for itself. I think we were the most medals and the most shortlisted of any of the countries in the Young Lion's competition. So clearly it's paying off. The vision there is clear and it's yeah, super grateful to be a part of it.

00:27:10:07 - 00:27:28:10
Alison
That's amazing. Before I let you get on with your busy day, I want to end with a quick question. For all of the aspiring young creatives in Canada who are listening to our episode today, what's the single most important piece of advice that you would offer them about cultivating a mindset that can help lead to breakthrough creative work?

00:27:28:12 - 00:27:55:14
Zoe
I would say believe that you can, I think is the biggest thing is that, some people and I've definitely found myself doing this is where you, like, cut yourself short or you don't apply or you like, don't think you can, so you don't. So I think the biggest piece is like, just try and try to put your stuff in competitions, try competitions, try making those big ideas.

00:27:55:16 - 00:28:02:09
Zoe
And the worst case scenario is that it doesn't land. But at least you have the knowledge to keep trying and doing things.

00:28:02:11 - 00:28:33:15
Jesse
I guess what I would say is really focus on being, this might sound silly, but like being kind to, you know, whoever you're working with, being kind to yourself. It's a super, just the industry in general is so it can be so intense and it can be so unforgiving in aspects. So finding, you know, that kindness, that empathy, if you can carry that, it helps to kind of build a, you know, a team, a network around you.

00:28:33:20 - 00:28:56:02
Jesse
It just makes working with people so much easier. The trust is so much easier developed when you know you can freely pass an idea to someone. and there isn't this fear of criticism. There isn't this fear of being laughed at. Because laughter is important in the whole process, as we talked about. But, you know, if it's borne out of fun and not malice, then it just makes the work so much better.

00:28:56:02 - 00:29:24:18
Jesse
I think we both see our work as like kind of this playful act, and that's all borne out of, you know, a trust and a lightness that I think comes from, you know, having a general empathy for the other person. So it's been, that would that would be what I'd recommend. Like, don't be too serious. There's so many serious people in the world like, what we do is so fun and so cool, just like take a step back and enjoy it.

00:29:24:20 - 00:29:44:22
Alison
They're both excellent pieces of advice and Jesse, I love the be kind to others. I also love be kind to yourself because it is a profession that can be all-consuming. It's a ton of fun. We're so lucky and privileged to do what we do, and there is an intensity and a competitiveness to it. And we can often be really hard on ourselves and 

00:29:44:22 - 00:30:05:20
Alison
In some ways, that's what makes us all successful. But you also have to be kind to yourself and cut yourself some slack. And then Zoe, you calling out, put yourself out there. Try. Experiment. It's not always going to end up in the Gold Lion, but every time you put yourself out there and try something new and submit, work for creatives or raise your hand for a new opportunity, you're going to learn from that.

00:30:05:20 - 00:30:24:07
Alison
And that's true for anyone in the creative side of our profession. It's true for anyone in our profession, whether they're on the media side, the brand side. That is the best way to grow your career and to grow your skill set and to ultimately thrive. So Zoe and Jesse, it has been an absolute thrill to have you both on the CMA Connect podcast.

00:30:24:09 - 00:30:28:17
Alison
Congratulations again, and I'm really looking forward to what comes next for both of you.

00:30:28:19 - 00:30:29:06
Jesse
Thank you so much.

00:30:29:06 - 00:30:29:16
Zoe
Thank you.

00:30:29:17 - 00:30:32:02
Jesse
Thank you. I appreciate being here.

00:30:32:04 - 00:30:38:18
Alison
Really great conversation, you guys.

00:30:38:20 - 00:30:51:09
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Broadcasting live from Cannes Lions 2025, CMA CEO Alison Simpson discusses Bob Park's (Chief Brand Officer for GE, Cafe, Monogram and Haier Appliances in Canada) bold decision to increase sponsorship of Canada Soccer amid multiple scandals. The condition? Complete equality for the women's soccer program. This purpose-driven stance delivered social change (equal pay for women's soccer) and business results (75% website traffic increase), taking GE's "good things for life" mantra further as "good things for everyone."

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:10:18
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:10:20 - 00:00:13:19
Video
We are announcing that we are building a women's professional soccer league in Canada. GE Appliances to supporting women's soccer, it's phenomenal. It changes women's
and girls' lives.

00:00:31:15 - 00:01:01:10
Bob 
Um, It still chokes me up. That thing, where we were faced with a real dilemma at GE. A number of the corporate partners of Canada Soccer, our governing, national soccer organization, had pulled out of sponsorship because of these, scandals and issues that were affecting the organization. But, and I had about a week to think about it.

00:01:01:12 - 00:01:25:02
Bob
And obviously, from a corporate standpoint, it would make the most sense to just simply, pull our funding. We always have clauses in our contract, that say, if this happens, you can pull out. But I thought about it and I thought, about, back to our purpose. And our purpose is really, as GE Appliances, we want to support the community.

00:01:25:02 - 00:01:49:13
Bob
We, our motto is "good things for life", and that means good things for everyone. How can we support Canada Soccer, which, soccer in Canada, the beautiful game in Canada and then pull out of backing financially the number one organization in the country. No matter how small it is, no matter what it is that you're doing, bring the change that you want to see in the world.

00:01:49:15 - 00:01:56:10
Bob
And after that, great things happen. Thank you very much. You.

00:01:56:12 - 00:02:26:23
Alison
In today's episode, we're diving into a story that is literally minutes ago, fresh on the stage from the prestigious Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity. We're exploring how innovative brand partnerships are reshaping the landscape for brands and sport marketing in Canada, and also really driving social change and important differences in our community and in equity in this case. So I'm thrilled to be joined by Bob Park, Chief Brand Officer for GE, Cafe, Monogram and Haier Appliances in Canada.

00:02:27:01 - 00:02:49:00
Alison
Bob is in Cannes, where he presented as part of the Changemakers series, which has been a very inspiring session where marketers around the world that are renowned for driving important societal change and building brands and businesses have been invited to speak. And Bob, you did a phenomenal job. So thank you for representing Canada so well. 

Bob
Thank you. 

Alison
And now we're going to dive into some questions.

00:02:49:00 - 00:03:10:13
Alison
And he's going to share, what he shared in Cannes and answer some of our questions around it. So Bob, it's an absolute a pleasure to have you with me today. Why don't you start, by talking a bit about GE Appliances Canada entered into a multi-year partnership with Canada Soccer in 2022. Now you were surprised by a big, unexpected press issue.

00:03:10:13 - 00:03:35:14
Alison
And anytime you enter into a sponsorship, there's always potential that things will go awry. Yet when things went awry, you stayed through it and absolutely continue to have a partnership and evolved your approach. So it's a very inspiring story. The audience at Cannes were riveted, so I'd love you to share with our CMA Connect audience a bit about the sponsorship, what happened and why you continue to support Canada Soccer.

00:03:35:15 - 00:04:02:11
Bob
I think the first thing I have to do is, go back to, our thinking process or our thought process around, sponsoring soccer in the beginning. And really what it came down to is soccer is the most participated sport in the country. And the reason for that is the barriers to entry for sports like hockey, as an example, are, are it's very expensive to send, if you have any children in hockey.

00:04:02:13 - 00:04:29:03
Bob
It's an extreme, expense. Soccer is the one sport that, despite whatever your family's economic condition is, almost any family can afford to participate in. And a large percentage of of the kids and families participating in soccer are GE consumers either now or down the road. So that made a lot of sense. The other thing that we really liked about soccer is it's a very diverse sport. 

00:04:29:03 - 00:04:50:11
Bob
Worldwide, it is also the most participated sport in the world, and it's phenomenal how accepted it is. No matter what country you go, we're in France now, and, and it's called football here. And I was just talking to a couple of people getting off the stage of how much they loved the game. So Canada, believe it or not, the fastest growing sport is soccer.

00:04:50:11 - 00:05:11:01
Bob
More people are playing soccer than ever before. Our major league teams are getting much more attention, and our national team. So it was a kind of a no-brainer knowing that World Cup is coming next year in 2026. You know, we had decided in 2019, how do we, how do we leverage that? How do we how do we approach our consumer?

00:05:11:01 - 00:05:45:09
Bob
And it was to get involved with major league teams in Canada, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, and finally, really the crown jewel was Canada Soccer because we wanted to support our national teams, both, men and women. And of course, all the all the, grassroots programs across the country. Unfortunately, what had happened was, a number of different scandals, of which, a lot of the sponsors for Canada Soccer, in fact, had pulled out and and found it to be, untenable to maintain a relationship.

00:05:45:09 - 00:06:15:20
Bob
And that was, you know, due to a few different, things that had happened. But probably the most prominent was, the women's soccer team going on strike, because of really unfair agreements or conditions as compared to the men's team. So an example of that was, they were having the 2023 Women's World Cup in Australia, and many of the women's players had to pay for their own plane tickets to go to the World Cup.

00:06:15:22 - 00:06:25:09
Bob
That's entirely unheard of for virtually any country, much less Canada, where obviously the men's team were fully funded.

00:06:25:11 - 00:06:27:03
Alison
And which team was performing significantly better?

00:06:27:05 - 00:06:50:12
Bob
Yeah, the the women's team was challenging. They'd won a gold medal. Definitely one of the top teams in the world. So it really didn't make a lot of sense. And, the women rightfully, protested it. They kept playing their games but they donned purple shirts and really made it public. So as a brand that damaged our brand significantly.

00:06:50:18 - 00:07:14:14
Bob
And any brand associated with Canada Soccer, because if you don't stand for that, it's going to do damage and you get social media inquiries and all, all types of questions around, why are you sponsoring this? Why is GE a part of, this terrible thing that is happening over at Canada Soccer? So I had about a week and I really thought about it.

00:07:14:14 - 00:07:51:06
Bob
And I had the opportunity because it is a clause in most, sponsorship contracts to actually withdraw. And big names had already withdrawn their support of Canada Soccer, which is, predominantly financial and significant amounts of support. We are one of the largest sponsors of Canada Soccer. So it was really a crossroads. And the one thing that really ran through my mind was that, if I withdraw support, I'm actually truly withdrawing support from both the men's, women's and grassroots programs.

00:07:51:08 - 00:08:15:20
Bob
And essentially what that does is, although I'm doing it in, I guess, protest of how they were treating the women's team, I'm, I'm completely dropping the funding as well. So that actually wasn't a winning situation for anybody. I thought and I thought about it. And finally we came up with the idea to write an open letter.

00:08:15:21 - 00:08:39:06
Bob
So we wrote an open letter, and we distributed that  across all, media, online, etc. and it got picked up by a number of different publications - sports, Globe and Mail, TSN, etc. and what the letter had said was the letter was, was from me. And what it said was, I'm actually going to, give more money to Canada Soccer, which was kind of odd.

00:08:39:06 - 00:09:04:02
Bob
I was going in the reverse direction. However, it came with a caveat, and the caveat was that that money was to go to specific programs that we agreed to and outlined, for example, trainers for the women's team, flights being paid for, etc., etc. It was all earmarked for the women's soccer program. That got me some calls.

00:09:04:02 - 00:09:29:12
Bob
It actually got me some calls from the CEO and Headquarters and they were wondering, what I was doing and, I explained it to them that, that this is what our brand stands for, and this is the only way to maintain our commitment and our purpose, but still show that GE does not accept inequity.

00:09:29:14 - 00:09:50:17
Bob
Our brand is not meant that way. And this is not acceptable to us, but we don't want to pull support of our hugely successful men's and women's programs. So a little bit of touchy, touchiness there, bit touch and go. But then finally, it actually paid off. Fast forward, months later, the women received an equal program.

00:09:50:17 - 00:10:24:09
Bob
They received equal pay. They are now on equal terms with, with the men's team. And and you could see now, it spiraled into Women's League, just, Women's Northern Super League just started in Canada. The game is changing just like it is for basketball and, and hockey and women's sports. So, you know, the Changemaker Series is really creating a spark and doing small things that can add up to eventually becoming something big.

00:10:24:10 - 00:10:48:01
Alison
And you describe it as a small thing. But from where I'm sitting, it is anything but a small thing on a bunch of levels. So first, you're betting your personal brand and reputation and to some degree, your job on this. It's a very bold move. And when you were on stage at Cannes, you talked about the crucial role being bold plays and you embody that and this decision and then this approach.

00:10:48:03 - 00:11:05:14
Alison
I'm also curious to hear how you sold that through, like getting getting a call from the CEO of the global organization absolutely gets your attention. And I'm curious to hear how you sold it through, and at any point, did you question whether you should be pursuing this or not?

00:11:05:15 - 00:11:32:22
Bob
Okay. So I'll answer the sold it through. Well, the the truth of the matter is, the good thing about my organization is that I'm granted a lot of autonomy. So I didn't really have to sell it through. I just explained what I was doing and why, and there wasn't any objection. I don't think that the gravity of what it was was really understood at the time, because nobody knew what would... nobody have,

00:11:32:22 - 00:11:54:21
Bob
no media outlet might have picked it up like, but I, I really talked about it as a move, really advertising that, GE doesn't stand for that. But we don't want to withdraw our support of Canada. So I thought it was a win-win when I sold it through. And I still think it's a win-win for everyone now, today.

00:11:54:21 - 00:12:21:16
Bob
And and now that it's easy to say it now because the numbers and everything proved it. But back at that time, I did believe in it. And really the reason why, so answering the second question, that I believe in it, is that it goes back to what does your brand stand for? What does GE mean to people? Our mantra is, good things for life and taking that a step further, it's good things for everyone.

00:12:21:18 - 00:12:54:20
Bob
Everyone, every family in Canada needs home appliances. So we, we sell our products to everyone up and down the gamut. Every culture that comes to Canada, new immigrants,  newcomers, whether you're transgender, homosexual, it really is irrelevant to us. Everyone needs them. So we have to be that brand. We have to equally represent everyone in that spectrum.

00:12:54:22 - 00:13:10:21
Bob
Because they're all GE consumers. So to me, running with a purpose like that and what we what the brand means it, it kind of was a no-brainer. So, maybe it was a little foolhardy, but we did it.

00:13:10:23 - 00:13:27:16
Alison
You've embodied being bold and brave in your move, you've made a significant difference for soccer in Canada, women in particular. So I'd love to hear on a personal note, how did it feel when you found out that your efforts led to the women getting equal rights, including equal pay?

00:13:27:18 - 00:14:01:04
Bob
That is huge to me. I think, I, I, I played a lot of sports when I was younger. And, you know, any kid that's ever picked up a hockey stick or a football or a soccer ball, etc., you always have those dreams of game seven over time and being something in sports and, in my own small way, I think personally speaking, I was able to contribute and any success that, the women's team has, I feel a very small part of it.

00:14:01:04 - 00:14:40:05
Bob
So it's really it it's it's the passion that that that drives you. It really personally upset me, especially the reason why I bring up that that flight thing that they had to pay for their own flights and they don't they don't have, they didn't have athletic trainers. It really broke my heart in the sense that, we were expecting these players to go out, and for the highest honour, to represent our country and the only other way to represent our country in that in such a manner is is going to war.

00:14:40:05 - 00:15:02:23
Bob
And for that we give so much credit for. But these, these players sacrifice so much. And whether men or women, to represent us, and to not give them the basics, really what it is, to to give them the best opportunity that we possibly can for them to compete is just so, it was such an atrocity to me.

00:15:03:03 - 00:15:22:12
Bob
And then to have it, without equity, was even, was even worse to me. So to be a small part of changing that dynamic was, was a huge impact on us. So seeing them successful and playing and the growth of the women's, women's, Northern Super League is amazing to me. I love it.

00:15:22:14 - 00:15:39:17
Alison
Well, it's incredible to me as a Canadian, when I first heard I, I knew that they weren't getting equal pay, but I had no appreciation that many of them had to work part time jobs to pay for themselves and the fact that they didn't have trainers, didn't have to, had to pay their own flights, and yet were still performing at the level they were,

00:15:39:17 - 00:15:48:21
Alison
and you think you can't help but think if we support them the way we should be, let's see what they can do. So thank you for being, you call it a small part of that, but I give you more credit than that.

00:15:48:22 - 00:15:50:08
Bob
Thank you, thank you.

00:15:50:10 - 00:15:59:08
Alison
Now, as marketers, everything we do is about the brand purpose. It's also about building the business. So I'd love you to share some of the business results too.

00:15:59:10 - 00:16:35:09
Bob
So I think the way that you measure anything obviously, and in our world is definitely sales-based. And really what what marketing essentially, what we're trying to do as marketers is really put ourselves in that in a consideration set. There's so many different digital, KPI and different words that you can use for it. But at the end of the day, whether it's a chocolate bar, a t-shirt, whatever it is, in our case a washing machine or, or a stove, are we in that consideration set when that person comes to that time to purchase?

00:16:35:09 - 00:16:59:15
Bob
And are we able to present why buy GE, in our case? And a lot of cases we're finding, let's say, for example, newcomers coming to Canada, they don't have General Electric here in France. So they're completely unaware of the brand. But they are aware of soccer, and they're fans of soccer. One of the first things they do when they come here is get acclimatized to what's going on with football in Canada.

00:16:59:17 - 00:17:23:09
Bob
So all the background of why we got into this, we did so much research, and we knew that there was an entire market that we could start convincing to become at least someone that would consider a GE appliance and look at it, if not become a purchaser of a GE appliance. That's ultimately in any marketing organization,

00:17:23:09 - 00:17:52:05
Bob
that is what we're trying to accomplish. So, oddly enough, doing purpose-built work like like we did with, with Quinn, the first non-binary, national ambassador of a corporate ambassador, to what we did to support the women's national team, it all paid off, year over year. And heading into 26, exponentially.

00:17:52:07 - 00:18:37:12
Bob
We expect about probably about 75% increase in a research study that we do annually. And it's specifically targeted to, would you, would you consider buying a GE appliance? Would you recommend a GE appliance? Very simple questions. And that number, that statistic, with 12 million soccer fans in Canada, is increasing roughly about 10 to 20% every year, year over year. By 2026, which is the World Cup next year, that 12 million fans is going to become around 20 or 22 million fans, we predict, of soccer because of what a World Cup does when it comes to a nation. We're going to be primed and we're going to be a part of it, and it's simply doing things that are true to our brand identity.

00:18:40:09 - 00:18:46:22
Alison
Well, that 10 to 20% annual increase in those sorts of studies is a significant increase.

00:18:46:23 - 00:19:15:03
Bob
It really, it really is. More than actually what we had budgeted for or what we had forecasted. I was thinking more in the single digits, but it's really, really cool how this stuff really resonated. This, for example, the sport, the women's team, it shot up our website visits by 75% the next month, like literally, after that open letter went out.

00:19:15:03 - 00:19:39:12
Bob
So people now are becoming much more interested and finding out about GE, it's it's where it wasn't in their consideration set before and have that emotional attachment with a soccer fan or a Canadian or a woman that just wants to see women's equity is really something you can't buy. You have to be bold. You have to, you have to do things that are true to your purpose.

00:19:39:14 - 00:20:06:03
Alison
But I also love when it would be reasonable for our audience to say, okay, so why would an appliance company partner with soccer and part of your rationale you just shared is brilliant. Like if soccer is more global than GE is, we are a country of immigrants and newcomers to a large degree, and you saw an opportunity to leverage that to grow the awareness and the affinity for GE. That makes so much sense and great insight.

00:20:06:07 - 00:20:11:16
Bob
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it seemed so logical at the time. Yeah. And it worked out.

00:20:11:17 - 00:20:21:10
Alison
So our audience are, I'm sure, going to be very curious to hear what your plans are, to the degree that you can share them, with soccer leading into 2026.

00:20:21:12 - 00:20:56:01
Bob
So 2026 is so exciting. The reason why, what makes it so exciting is if you think of any sporting event in Canada, whether it's you, your grandparents. In the last 100 years or more, in fact, the existence of Canada, an international sporting event, or in fact, any event of this magnitude, it's never happened. Olympics are definitely, large, but actually the most viewed sporting event in the world is the World Cup.

00:20:56:01 - 00:21:22:15
Bob
It doesn't even come close. It's because it combines so many nations as I said. It's the most widely participated sport in the world. It is exponentially growing in Canada. It's going to be like nothing we've ever seen. It's in two cities, both Vancouver and Toronto, and I think it's going to, and we're all predicting, it's going to bring Canadians together in a very, very meaningful, and special way.

00:21:22:15 - 00:21:51:09
Bob
So to be a part of it, to, be supporting our Canadian athletes as they compete for a World Cup and actually have a very, they just broke the top 30, national rankings. So we have a competitive team. It's going to be extremely exciting. I can't broach exactly what the plans are. The one thing I can share is that we are going to be really focused on 

00:21:51:11 - 00:22:16:16
Bob
exactly what we did with the women's team, or working with Quinn, and all of the things we've done to this point. It's all been about accessibility. The sport is accessible regardless of financial circumstance. It's the most participated sport in Canada. Our doors are open to people like Quinn, non-binary athletes. Our doors are open to women, men, any gender, any culture.

00:22:16:18 - 00:22:35:04
Bob
That's what GE is all about. So we're, we're just going to take that a step further, and we're going to have, in partnership with Canada Soccer, we'll just say, a big, big activation that's going to embody that, into 2026, that, it's going to really capture that spirit.

00:22:35:06 - 00:22:57:05
Alison
Well, I'm excited to see more. And we'll have you back on the podcast when you can share a few more details.

Bob
Perfect. 

Alison
So I'd like to close with two questions. This has been such an inspiring example of understanding your purpose and having the guts to stick to it through really adverse times, both for the organization and the brand, but also for you personally, from a career perspective.

00:22:57:10 - 00:23:04:07
Alison
So what advice and what key learning coming out of this experience, would you share with our audience?

00:23:04:09 - 00:23:30:18
Bob
I think, you know, if I was talking to any marketers or even individuals, as, oh, there we go, it's time to go. (Laughs) As I said, earlier, on stage, it's really about being bold, knowing what your purpose is, and then being bold. So your purpose is really, whether it's personal, whether it's corporate, knowing who you are and what you stand for.

00:23:30:20 - 00:23:52:18
Bob
So for me personally, I knew that that wasn't okay with me personally, what happened with the women's team, but I had to expand that to corporate. And what what would GE do? What is GE? What does GE mean? What is our purpose? And really, once you got down to that, after that there's no point in being timid about it.

00:23:52:20 - 00:24:25:19
Bob
It's really about now let's push this agenda. And if you are genuine, the consumer will realize that. And that's exactly what happened here. We were, we've made bold steps and it paid off in terms of creating a good environment and igniting something at Canada Soccer that drove change. But at the same time, it did a good for our brand because I think consumers realized that, wow, I really like what GE is all about.

00:24:25:19 - 00:24:41:16
Bob
And I really like that GE did something about it. So I think if you have those factors into place, whether it's again personal or corporate, you're going to make change, no matter how small or how big in the world. And it's going to be, positive.

00:24:41:18 - 00:24:44:23
Alison
And incredibly rewarding for the business and I suspect, for you personally.

00:24:45:01 - 00:24:46:07
Bob
Absolutely.

00:24:46:09 - 00:24:59:06
Alison
So I end every podcast, because we always have very senior, successful people on the podcast, I end every podcast by asking you for what's a piece of advice you would give to marketers who aspire to follow in your footsteps?

00:24:59:08 - 00:25:02:11
Bob
First of all, don't follow in my footsteps.

00:25:02:13 - 00:25:04:07
Alison
And why?

00:25:04:09 - 00:25:26:03
Bob
I mean, I think that would go back to my piece of advice. You're going to make a lot of mistakes. I think if you listen and tune in to any, success advice or entrepreneurial advice, it's okay to make mistakes. I think it goes back to that same psychology of being bold. Really.

00:25:26:06 - 00:25:54:03
Bob
Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Ask a lot of questions. Learn. Marketing is such a dynamic field. If you look at marketing from the early 2000s, even to today, the roles themselves have changed. A brand manager, someone in PR, you name it, digitization. And now with AI being the next great frontier, it's changing roles dramatically.

00:25:54:05 - 00:26:27:10
Bob
So you have to be courageous. You have to be bold. You have to ask a lot of questions, and you have to you're going to make mistakes, and you have to be willing to change. Nothing great ever happened in the comfort zone. So prepare to be uncomfortable, and it's actually the people that thrive in that zone that are going to be successful, especially in marketing, because quite frankly, in terms of corporate strategy, business strategy, whether you're agency or brand side, you're leading the way, so be bold.  

00:26:27:10 - 00:26:32:08
Alison
Great advice. And some of my best lessons have been from the mistakes I've made.

00:26:32:12 - 00:26:33:04
Bob
Absolutely.

00:26:33:07 - 00:26:46:03
Alison
There's something about failing that creates memory glue, and you definitely change behaviours and become much more agile in your approach and do what you need to do to avoid and to learn from it. So phenomenal advice.

00:26:46:05 - 00:26:46:17
Bob
Thank you.

00:26:46:19 - 00:26:56:12
Alison
Well Bob, it's been an incredible conversation. Thank you very much for coming literally off the stage at Cannes and spending time with us. And congratulations on a really great presentation. The crows were riveted.

00:26:56:14 - 00:27:02:10
Bob
Thank you very much.

00:27:02:12 - 00:27:15:01
Presenter
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Broadcasting live from the 2025 Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity, CMA CEO Alison Simpson speaks with Susan Irving (CMO, Kruger Products) and Bryan Kane (CEO, FCB Canada) to discuss FCB Canada's Gold Lion win with SickKids Foundation and why Susan and Bryan keep returning to the festival. From Susan's three C's of Cannes and Bryan identifying areas to lean into, discover the insights shaping the future of marketing, creativity and accountability.

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:10:23
Announcer
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:11:01 - 00:00:32:16
Alison Simpson
Welcome to the CMA Connect podcast. I'm Alison Simpson, and I am thrilled to be joined today by Susan Irving, the chief marketing officer for Kruger Products, and Bryan Kane, the CEO for FCB Canada. And Bryan, we'll start with a huge congratulations. You brought home Canada's first of hopefully many Gold Lions for your work with Sick Kids yesterday. How does it feel to be leading the charge?

00:00:32:18 - 00:00:50:22
Bryan Kane
Well, it was a thrill for the team and everybody back home. There's an interesting thing with Cannes, where there's just a few of us that are here really representing the entire team, but getting the texts flooding in from clients and the rest of the agency was awesome to be able to share that with everybody.

00:00:51:00 - 00:01:02:18
Alison Simpson
And, Susan, I know you've been here in past years. In fact, you judged, I think, two years ago. So how does it feel to be back and have a bit more flexibility in your schedule so you can actually take advantage of the programming?

00:01:02:20 - 00:01:27:17
Susan Irving
It's always great to be here. It's my third year. And I think every year you're really just trying to get used to the craziness. I always say, if you've ever been to Vegas, it's Vegas times 100 for the marketer and creative individual. But it is nice this year not to be locked in a room for three days and being able to take advantage, of all the content.

00:01:28:06 - 00:01:42:03
Susan Irving
If you've been here before, you know that it's just not the content here at the Palais. But then there's all the duelling beaches. So, it's always a struggle. I always tell people, register for everything, and then on the day, decide where you're going to go.

00:01:42:05 - 00:02:01:12
Alison Simpson
So this is my first time back since I was agency side 15 years ago. And how much it has changed the volume of opportunities and calibre of speakers is unbelievable. So Susan, that is really, really good advice. So I'd love to hear from both of you. You've both been here multiple times. What keeps bringing you back? And Bryan, why don't you start?

00:02:01:14 - 00:02:31:15
Bryan Kane
Sure. I think, Cannes does an incredible job of really looking at where the industry is going. So it's an opportunity to come together, as you mentioned, with, like, world class speakers. The content's incredible. But it's very forward-looking. So it's really a week where you can take a step back, reflect. And at the end of the day, it's also an opportunity to sharpen your tools where you get to take a step out of the business and really focus on learning and identifying those things that you need to to really lean into.

00:02:31:16 - 00:02:38:02
Bryan Kane
So when you come home, you've got a really clear focus on what the keys are that you need to be looking at.

00:02:38:04 - 00:02:59:00
Susan Irving
Yeah. Well said Bryan, if for me, you know, as a marketer, you think about the four P's, I think about it as the three C's of Cannes. Being the creative, the content and the connections that you make here. And, as Bryan said, it really is the time to to listen and get different perspectives on different businesses.

00:02:59:03 - 00:03:19:21
Susan Irving
Listen to where the industry's going. And sit back and figure out what is then applicable to that, to your business. It just gives you so much hope and optimism and inspiration to see so much creativity across the board. And again, how do you bring it home to inspire your own teams and your own agencies? To get to great work.

00:03:19:23 - 00:03:21:16
Bryan Kane
With.

00:03:21:18 - 00:03:39:14
Alison Simpson
Very well said. And being live in Cannes means you're going to hear lots of background noise too. So that's just indicative of the level of energy that we're all surrounded by. So we're only on a couple of days into the festival, so it's still early, but I'd love to hear a particular key takeaway that you have or a presentation that really resonated with you.

00:03:39:14 - 00:03:41:10
Alison Simpson
Susan, do you want to start?

00:03:41:12 - 00:04:16:18
Susan Irving
Cannes was kicked off with some marketer of the year, which was Apple. And, you know, they're just a phenomenal organization. When you look at creativity and, you know, really thinking about hope and optimism and the fact that AI is is a big trend yet again. But really talking about, human emotion. And I can't deliver human connectivity and emotion and the way that Apple is just innovating and stepping forward, that constantly solving, a human problem or driving a human emotion.

00:04:16:20 - 00:04:54:17
Susan Irving
The second one, we were at Salesforce speech, yesterday. And again, it was Scott Galloway, who always says it like it is, he's quite blunt and straightforward, but the biggest message I got from him was stop thinking about AI as, as a tool and start thinking about it as a collaborator, because when, human detail, and human thought combined with power of AI, your accuracy will be that much higher when you think about it as a collaborator versus a tool.

00:04:55:00 - 00:05:17:03
Bryan Kane
I think from an actual sort of time spent in my first day, there's an opportunity in Cannes, in the basement, where they post all the shortlists in the press for it, so you can really dive into the work. And I just felt my tank getting filled, looking at all this incredible work from around the world and really benchmarking ourselves against the absolute best.

00:05:17:03 - 00:05:37:17
Bryan Kane
Not in a category, not in a country, but just world class work. So the time spent in the basement is something that I cherish and try and make sure I squeeze some some time away as a guilty pleasure, just to sort of soak in the work for sure. I think also like in the context of some of the AI conversations, it's a theme of pretty much every talk.

00:05:38:07 - 00:06:12:04
Bryan Kane
But what I've noticed, the difference between last year and this year is it's really stripped out. AI is being the idea, and it's really how did I help the idea? And really what is the role of AI? And so seeing the progression just in the 12 months since we were here last, has been really interesting. And I think that that continual evolution of us understanding how to harness the power of AI as opposed to it's a checkbox, that we need to integrate within our creative process so that that was sort of a takeaway, but it wasn't one talk, it just the theme, this sort of emerging.

00:06:12:06 - 00:06:30:12
Susan Irving
What just to build on that point was interesting to think about three years ago, the conversations were what is AI and how do I even use it? And even last year it was here's some tools. Here's how you can use it safely. But you're right. This year it's how did you use AI as a tool, to make your creative process better.

00:06:30:12 - 00:06:34:20
Susan Irving
So you're right, it was quite interesting.

00:06:34:21 - 00:06:49:16
Alison Simpson
So you both are clearly immersing yourself in the festival and all the benefits that it brings with it. So I'd love to hear what unexpected insight or new learning that you think will shift either the future of creativity or marketing.

00:06:49:18 - 00:07:08:05
Bryan Kane
I think, one thing that's emerged is the need for optimism in the world. It's come up a couple of different times. It was a theme through the show last night when they were recognizing all the Gold and Grand Prix winners, but as I was sitting with that thought, it was the important role that brands play in our lives.

00:07:08:05 - 00:07:31:01
Bryan Kane
And brands have never been more important to give meaning and cultural context in a world that you know is increasingly chaotic. But that brands can be that anchor point for consumers and the need for optimism within brands, and to find ways to bring joy to people's lives, to help them, save time with something Scott Galloway was talking about.

00:07:31:06 - 00:07:41:16
Bryan Kane
But the role that brands play and the importance was one where, you know, early in the week, but that was a reflection. And I think I'll sit with that through the rest of the week and build out that thought.

00:07:42:19 - 00:08:14:15
Susan Irving
For me, it's also innovation. There seems to be a lot more of a trend, this year on innovation. One of the difference that, the schedule has done, they've now kind of shown you paths, that you can take that I think distills, the schedule a little bit more. But last night at the awards, just even after Bryan Ncbi won gold, they showed, a competition that they have where brands needed to solve, an innovation problem and come up with a solution for the world.

00:08:14:17 - 00:08:25:21
Susan Irving
So again, what's exciting is, is leveraging creativity to come up with future innovation to solve world problems.

00:08:25:23 - 00:08:50:04
Alison Simpson
And so both great insights and Bryan, building on euros, we had CMA's event case for Canada last week. And Kantar shared that only Canadians only think 13% of brands currently understand what their lives are about and the challenges they face, which is a huge opportunity to bring more positivity and purpose and have brands take a more of a leadership role in helping Canadians get to a better place in their lives.

00:08:50:04 - 00:09:04:07
Alison Simpson
So nice to see the parallels. Absolutely. So still early in the week, we'd love to hear from each of you what you're most excited about or looking forward to in the remainder of the week. Who wants to kick us off?

00:09:04:09 - 00:09:20:21
Susan Irving
I think there's a couple of things I always love the award shows. Obviously I think the stats are only 10% get shortlisted. Yeah, it's only 10% get shortlisted from the entries and only 5% three 3 to 5% medal and is.

00:09:20:21 - 00:09:22:01
Bryan Kane
One Grand Prix.

00:09:22:07 - 00:09:41:11
Susan Irving
And point one was the number that he said last night. So I love going to the shows, because you get to see the best of the best and see everything that's been judged. But then secondly, I, I love the speakers. I love going to the CMO, speakers. I love seeing all the celebrities that they have this year, which seems to be a bigger trend.

00:09:41:11 - 00:09:54:06
Susan Irving
We just saw Serena Williams, the Kelce brothers were here. But it's just really understanding the different roles and different elements there are in terms of, you know, driving brand equity.

00:09:54:08 - 00:10:25:22
Bryan Kane
The part of the week that I love again, is sort of rooted in the work, which is in the basement in the bowels of the Palais here. And there's, there's sessions every day, which is inside the jury room where the jury share the deliberation of the work and why one piece was awarded or maybe not, coming in, there's certain pieces that people expect to do really well, but really understanding the insights and how they just tour the work apart to really understand what was the insight, what was the driver and did that translate into the work.

00:10:25:22 - 00:10:57:06
Bryan Kane
And then again, this really critical lens on results. And were these results clearly tied to the work, as opposed to a general business result? And having seen that evolve over the last number of years has been really interesting. The accountability behind the work and really work that is, is proving that creativity is an economic multiplier. And there's a direct straight line, between all the work and the immediate and long term business results.

00:10:57:08 - 00:11:18:06
Alison Simpson
That is a fabulous note to end. Because it helps give our compression even more credibility. We are such a powerful part of building businesses and helping drive Canada's economy, and creativity is absolutely the accelerator for that. So it's wonderful to be learning as you are here, of the very real impact and able to quantify that. So Susan and Bryan, many, many thanks.

00:11:18:06 - 00:11:23:14
Alison Simpson
I know it's an incredibly busy week and you've got a jam packed agenda. And I really appreciate you making time raising.

00:11:23:14 - 00:11:28:10
Bryan Kane
Thank you. So.

00:11:28:12 - 00:11:41:01
Announcer
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How can marketers harness data-driven insights while navigating privacy and emerging technologies? CMA CEO Alison Simpson welcomes Jan Kestle, founder and President of Environics Analytics, to discuss why data strategies must be enterprise-led, moving from "so what?" insights to "now what?" outcomes. Their conversation covers privacy-compliant collaboration platforms that reveal which advertising works, how privacy compliance enables effective marketing, and AI's role in enhancing data interpretation.

00;00;01;23 - 00;00;06;09
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00;00;22;17 - 00;00;49;16
Alison
Welcome to CMA Connect, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of marketing with industry leaders and innovators. Today, I am absolutely thrilled to welcome a true pioneer in the realms of data, statistics and marketing, Jan Nestle. Jan is the founder and president of Environics Analytics. With over five decades of experience, Jan has been at the forefront of using data and analytics to solve complex business problems and help shape the marketing landscape in Canada and beyond.

00;00;49;18 - 00;01;17;08
Alison
Jan's journey is nothing short of inspirational. From her early days at the Ontario Statistical Centre to founding Environics Analytics in 2003, she is consistently pushed the boundaries of what's possible with data-driven insights. Her contributions to the industry are massive and include developing the Prism Segmentation system and the Envision Business Intelligent platform, tools that have revolutionized how marketers understand and can reach their audiences.

00;01;17;10 - 00;01;42;08
Alison
In recognition of her groundbreaking work. Jan was honoured with the Canadian Marketing Association's Lifetime Achievement Award in 2022, truly cementing her status as a trailblazer in our field. In today's episode, we'll explore Jan's really fascinating career path and discuss a range of topics that are reshaping the marketing landscape. From the evolving role of data and predictive analytics, to solving business problems to navigating data privacy complexities,

00;01;42;10 - 00;02;01;23
Alison
we plan to delve into the future of data-driven marketing. We're also going to touch on AI, enhanced customer journey mapping, ethical considerations and hyper-personalized marketing, and the importance of data sharing and driving business success. There is no shortage of great topics that Jan can speak to, and it is an absolute pleasure, Jan, to welcome you to CMA Connect today.

00;02;01;26 - 00;02;20;00
Jan
Well, thank you very much and thank you for having me. I love working with the CMA. I think the CMA in the past few years has done an incredible job of having conversations that are very important to marketers and to the whole business community in Canada. So it's my pleasure to be with you here today, Alison.

00;02;20;02 - 00;02;40;21
Alison
And well, thank you so much. Jan, I don't use the term pioneer lightly. You've been a pioneer in data statistics in the marketing professions. The fact that you've been a leading innovator in all three is also a sign that you didn't really take a traditional path to your career. You also succeeded as a woman at a time that was, very sadly, very rare.

00;02;40;24 - 00;02;52;23
Alison
And I really find your story inspiring, both from a professional perspective and also from a personal perspective. I know many of our listeners would as well. So I'd love to start by having you share a little bit about your journey.

00;02;52;25 - 00;03;22;06
Jan
Sure. Thank you. Well, sometimes when I think about my long career, which I guess part of what makes me a pioneer is it goes so far back, is I think about three aspects to my career. First of all, as you mentioned, I worked as a government statistician, and then I worked as a sales and product development person and eventually a leader in a company that was well-established and owned by various players in the information business.

00;03;22;08 - 00;03;41;01
Alison
And then finally, in the latter part of my career, actually started a business and built that. And for some people, it's kind of like, well, how did you decide to go from a government job to leading and working in the private sector and then running a pretty interesting business in the private sector? Why did you decide to start your own business?

00;03;41;01 - 00;04;03;13
Jan
And always gives me pause when I think about it that way, because to me, it's been a continuum of figuring out how data and mathematics can really help simulate realities and help people solve problems, whether it's for business or social services or, you know, how we make Canada run better? I've always been excited about being able to use information to do that.

00;04;03;18 - 00;04;32;24
Jan
The truth is, I, I have a degree in applied math, which is kind of like a combination of math and physics, and I graduated in a class of four women out of 140 classmates. And it was difficult, even being, you know, a good student and high in the rankings of my class. It was difficult to to get jobs for women in those scientific, and honestly, in any business in that day and age.

00;04;32;24 - 00;05;04;18
Alison
So I was very excited to take on my first job as a survey statistician and editor in the provincial government. And that was when we didn't even have computers, never mind AI. We put data on spreadsheets that was actual pieces of paper. We edited questionnaires with red pencils. We shared our work with our partner across the table to do QA, and then we added up rows and columns in order to create data that went into large statistical outputs.

00;05;04;18 - 00;05;31;18
JAn
I always say I got really good training on thinking about what the data are telling you and what's missing and what makes sense by being right down in the trenches. Eventually, in that particular role, I moved on to doing a lot of negotiating for the priorities for Ontario and the federal provincial context. But eventually I was leading that organization, and I, I enjoyed very much the work that I got to do in the policy side.

00;05;31;20 - 00;06;03;28
Jan
But my choices for a new challenge were to leave the statistics and the data part of of the work and move into more of a government policy job. But I had the opportunity to go and work for the first company in Canada that took data and demographics and created customized versions of that that businesses could use. Compusearch was the pioneering company in that field, and they'd been around for about 15 years and mainly working for retailers.

00;06;04;00 - 00;06;27;07
Jan
But they started to branch out and they recruited someone who really understood packaged goods, and they understood someone who worked in the financial sector. And they came and recruited me as someone who worked with governments and not-for-profits. And I joined, actually only took me like five days to make a decision to leave my pension and all that government work and take this opportunity.

00;06;27;07 - 00;07;02;23
Jan
And I went into sales and I'd never been in sales. I'd done a lot of business and relationships, but my first job there was selling the data that they had produced back to the government sector, and that was exciting. And led me to an opportunity to work on the product side, is how do we take data and turn it into information, because many organizations can't really invest in building data and doing the work from the ground up. You actually have to turn data into a product or a service that can be actionable, that can make a difference to a community or to a business.

00;07;02;23 - 00;07;26;00
Jan
So I went from being the statistician to being the sales person and understanding my customer's needs, and then going into product, and then eventually to president of that organization during its largest period of growth, which was the time period when people got computers on their desks, desktop computers, we went into desktop mapping. It was just the very beginning.

00;07;26;02 - 00;07;52;06
Jan
It wasn't even the CRM era. It was what we call database marketing. When we were starting to mine data and combine the kind of data that brands had about their customers, quite limited, with the data that we had about postal codes. So I always think, you know, all these parts of this journey really enabled me to think about how to make data help people make good decisions.

00;07;52;08 - 00;08;21;26
Jan
And eventually Compusearch was sold a few times and, and, you know, kind of went the route of what often happens with little businesses when they become successful. They they kind of became a part of selling software. And you know, a more bundled solution. And a few of us had a lot of feedback from our former customers to say, we really want people who focus on the data and the customized solutions or implementing the standard solutions in a customized way.

00;08;21;26 - 00;08;52;21
Jan
And so, you know, the story is pretty well known. I decided to start a new business basically replicating building the data, but also helping people understand how to use the data. And that's what we started Environics Analytics. Our funding came from the traditional market research company, Environics Research, that had built a niche for itself, not only measuring political polling and consumer research, but measuring people's values and psychographics.

00;08;52;21 - 00;09;25;26
Jan
And so they had this idea of bringing those two worlds together. And so Environics and ourselves are a little team of former geo demographers started Environics Analytics. Twenty years, 300 people, you know, a thousand customers and lots of databases and lots of data development. I still feel like we're continuing that legacy of help people take data and turn it into information that enables them to take action that can actually make their organizations more successful and ultimately make people's lives better.

00;09;25;26 - 00;09;49;15
Jan
I think we know data for good. If you use data for health care or education or, you know, not-for-profit, that's considered data for good. But I also think it's data for good if you can get the right messages to the right people at the right time, get the right products on the right shelves, you know, organize people's busy lives so that they can really make good decisions and the data are there for them.