Cider Chat – Details, episodes & analysis

In Episode 423 of Cider Chat, we delve into the fascinating world of apple identification a.k.a. Apple Id with the one and only John Bunker, a renowned author and the c0-founder of FEDCO Trees, Maine Organic Farmers and Gardners Association (MOFGA). Hear as he shares his lifelong passion for tracking down historic apple varieties and teaching others how to preserve these treasures is truly inspiring.

This presentation is part one of a two-part series on Apple ID recorded at CiderCon2024.

Hear John Bunker walking us through the intricacies of apple identification, reminding us that it’s not just about identifying a fruit — it’s about preserving history. For orchardists and cider makers, understanding the varieties in your care is a crucial part of maintaining the integrity of your orchard and the quality of your cider apples.

00:00 Introduction to Cider Chat and Apple Mysteries

01:37 John Bunker's Apple Identification Journey

04:11 The Importance of Apple Identification

10:11 Understanding Apple Trees and Grafting

21:39 Resources for Apple Identification

25:37 DNA Profiling and Apple Identification

30:12 Practical Apple Identification Scenarios

33:40 Mentors and the Black Oxford Apple

34:39 DNA Profiling and Apple Identification

37:06 The Mystery of the Canadian Strawberry

38:52 The Hunt for Lost Apples

41:36 Identifying Seedlings and Grafted Trees

45:49 Commercial Orchards and Misidentified Apples

48:47 The Role of Historical Records in Apple Identification

53:26 The Fun and Challenges of Apple Hunting

58:05 Becoming an Apple Detective

01:04:31 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

• Website: Outonthelimbapple.com

• Books recommended in this episode:

  • Apples and the Art of Detection by John Bunker (2019)
  • Systemic Pomology by UP Hedrick 1925
  • The American Fruit Culturist: Containing Practical Directions for the Propagation and Culture of All Fruits Adapted to the United States, John Thomas 1849
  • The Fruit Manual, Robert Hogg 1886
  • Episode 422 John Bunker Keynote: Orchards and Legacy
  • Subscribe to Cider Chat YouTube
  • Totally Cider Tours - French Cider Tour

In a captivating keynote from the 2023 New York Apple Camp, John Bunker, the founder of FEDCO Trees and renowned author on apple identification, shared his profound connection to the outdoors.

Enjoy the Keynote by John that weaves his passion for Jazz, quotes from thought leaders and his insights on the late frost of 2023 and the community surrounding apples, cider and plants.

Find 5 key areas that John bunker focused on during his speech.

• Connection to Nature and OrchardsObservations
• Learnings from Plants
• Environmental and Agricultural Reflections
• Philosophical Musings and Inspirations
• Legacy and Passing the Torch

• – Apple ID 101 w/John Bunker coming out in Episode 423 – August 21, 2024

The camp took place for the first time ever in July of 2023. It was held at the Ashokan Camp in New York State. The Ashokan Center is an independent music & nature nonprofit established in 2008. The musical history of this camp was a perfect fit for John’s keynote which also featured many references to musicians and songs.

• 374: NY Apple Camp News! Bonus Cider Chat Live on NY Apple Camp
• 380: The Legacy of the Downing Brothers: Architects of Nature
• 388: French Origins of American Apples | The Grand-Mères
• 385: Cider’s Ki – Remix
• French Cider Tour 2024

This panel discussion on Ancestral Method was moderate by Nicole Leibon of LeNosse Knows consultation. She was joined by Yann Gilles, a French cider consultant, Levi Danielson of Oregon's RAW cider and David Carr of California's Raging Cider. This feature was was recorded at CiderCon 2024, the annual trade conference hosted by the American Cider Association.

The discussion centers around various aspects of cider production, specifically highlighting traditional cider-making methods like the "ancestral method.

• Cider Making Methods and Personal Backgrounds of each speaker
•  
• Ancestral Method of Cider Production
  • This traditional method of cider making is particularly prominent in Normandy and Brittany, France.
  •  
  • It involves a two-step fermentation process:
    • the first step is in tanks and the second in bottles, intentionally leaving both fermentations incomplete to retain some natural sugars and create a sparkling cider.
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• Technical Details in Cider Fermentation
  • Discussions delve into the technical specifics such as controlling yeast population, managing nitrogen levels in the must, and how these factors affect the cider’s quality and character.
•  
• Influence of Environmental Factors
  • Various environmental factors like orchard age, apple variety, and climatic conditions impact the nitrogen content in apples, which in turn affects the cider's fermentation process
•  
• Cider Quality Control Techniques
  •    Techniques like racking, filtration, and the use of centrifuges are explored to manage fermentation and ensure quality.
•  
• Packaging and Bottling Considerations
  •    The choice of bottles, pressure management during second fermentation, and how these factors impact the safety and quality of the final cider product are discussed

• Cider Tasting and Consumer Preferences
  • The session included a cider tasting, emphasizing the importance of understanding consumer preferences and the impact of specific cider-making techniques on the flavor and appeal of the cider.
    • 2022 Cidre AOP Pays d'Auge Cuvée Réserve | Manoir de Grandouet (Normandy)
    •  
    • 2023 AW Cider Pet Nat | RAW Cider Company (Oregon)
    •  
    • 2020 Disco Nat, Metal House Cider (New York)
    •  
    • Jonathan & Liberty | Raging Cider & Mead Company (California)

Enjoy this detailed exploration highlights both the science and the art behind cider making, from orchard management to bottling and consumer satisfaction.

• Nicole LeGrand Liebon - @nicolegrandleibon - Vermont
•  
• Yann Giles - @yanngilles.cidre - France
•  
• Levi Danielson - RAW Cider - Oregon
•  
• David Carr - Raging Cider and Mead Company - Southern California

• PA Cider Fest - June 15, 2024
•  
• Who's been cross promoting cider #xpromotecider
  • Sidra Santiago artesanal sidreria - Craft cider. Heritage Chilean apples. In the heart of Santiago, Chile
•  
• French Cider Tour 2024 is Sold Out

It is inconceivable, but true that in the home land, the epicenter, the frick’n ground zero of all apples globally there is no history of cidermaking in Kazakhstan. Welcome 2022 and the pioneering team of Aizhan, who is Kazak, and her French husband Alex Thomas. Together they are changing the course of history for the worlds’ 9th largest country that has the one boast that no other region of the world can claim: Kazakhstan is where apples originated. Thanks to the Silk Road for helping apples travel!

Based in the city of Almaty or what was once known as Alma-Ata meaning Grandfather Apple, there is now Apple City Cider’s new production facility and tasting room. The Thomas family ferment Malus Sieversii (wild apples) which there are 400 known varieties. In the rest of the world, cider makers use Malus Domestica which originally came from Malus Sieversii. It is much like domestic dogs are related to wolves, but the two are very different and the reason why Kazakhstan’s apple scene is so unique.

In the Tian Shan Mountain range that borders China and Kyrgyzstan lies the largest swath of wild apple forest in the world.  The city of Alma-Ata (now Almaty) in the southern region of the country at one time had only 5000 inhabitants versus the 2 million residents of today and also wild apple forest. Sadly, like many apple trees in countries all over the world, orchards have or are being cleared for construction. Thus, the Tian Shan Mountains are critical to the preservation of what remains of the once extensive forest of wild apple trees and is now a Natural Park Reserve.

One must secure a permit and be escorted to visit the wild apple forest, which can be a daunting task. But one does not need to visit the mountains to taste the apples, they can simply head to Almaty and visit Apple City Cider!

• Almaty Classic (6.0%) has been bottled. Expect a crisp and refreshing cider made with cultured yeast and wild apples. Alex says it is “fresh, fruity, and acid driven”.
• The Almaty Export is aging in oak and is a blend of native and cultured yeasts.
• Both ciders and all future Apple City Ciders moving forward are bottled in 750ML with crown caps.

• The Thomas filmed a documentary on the wild apple forest in Kazakhstan with special guests, Andrew Lea, Claude Jolicoeur, Ryan Burk and Peter Mitchell. The documentary which is 2 hours and 13 minutes (is divided up into 3 Parts) has been reformatted into a one hour show and is slated to be featured on Amazon Prime.
• Watch on Vimeo 

• Website: https://applecitycider.com/

• CiderCon 2023 Call for proposals – go to ciderassociation.org
• French Cider Tour Normandy & Brittany, France – September 18th-24th, 2022

Please Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

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• Twitter @ciderchat
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Frédéric Pacory

Today, Claude's son Frédéric Pacory runs cidermaking after his father retired in 1989. The farm is certified organic. There are over 100 hectres (200+ acres) with 800 pear tree and 600 apple trees. All the trees are standard size.

Wife Catherine and son Simon and Frédéric's sister Héléne also work on the farm.

Expect award winning bottles of both cider and poiré plus Calvados.

• Poirés
  • The ideal! - won first prize in a 2022 Normandy competition
    • There are a number of Poirés to try along with pear juice
• Cider
• Calvados
• Apértifs
  • Grim du Poire is a a blend of pear juice and Calvados
• Vinegar

• Website

• French Cider Tour Normandy & Brittany, France - September 18th-24th, 2022

Group photo the roof of the Castle at Eric Bordelet[/caption]

Please Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
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• Twitter @ciderchat
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Reservations for the Normandy and Brittany Cider Tour have been extended to June 15, 2022. Find the trip itinerary and reservation link at https://ciderchat.com/france-cider-tour

In this episode we hear about techniques and classifications of cider made by  the well known French cidermaker Eric Bordelet, during a previous French Cider Tour in 2018.

Eric Bordelet t-shirt w:Didier Dagueneau on Front

This chat takes off with Eric talking about the difference between apples and pears and that it is critical to watch the PH of Pears when fermenting. This clip is taken from a longer clip that is part of a bonus audio   available to all at the Cider Chat Patreon Page.

• Steps from crushing to blending
• Collage - a French winemaking term that he uses to fine the juice and cider
• Bentonite - a clay used in fining - the clay dust binds with the heavy juice particles and they drop to the bottom and are removed
• Transitioning a family business
• Temperature control in cidermaking
• Instead of bentonite clay for fining the cider Eric uses porcelain filtration system
• Controlling the speed of fermentation - how to extend fermentation if the outside temperature is fluctuating.
• Eric use of words to explain his products - for instance "gastronomic"
  • he makes two kinds of ciders gastronomic and Bretagne which he explains in this episode. He will make a Cidre Doux (a sweet cider) with a variety of apples
  • The gastronomy cuvee Eric use a wide variety of apples and uses the same proportion or percentage of apple (or pears for his poire) each year. This way you can compare the vintage from year to year. The weather will make each vintage unique. He uses his own palate to decide how it will be and "does not leave the choice to others"
• Stopped fermentation
• Separating cider to make different blends

Then we move out of the sun and and offer up the last couple of minutes for you to listen as we move into the tasting room.

Contact Eric Bordelet

• Website: https://ericbordelet.com/

• French Cider Tour Normandy & Brittany, France - September 18th-24th, 2022

Group photo the roof of the Castle at Eric Bordelet

• Episode 172: "Tasting with Eric Bordelet" begins at 10:35 minutes in.

Please Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
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• Twitter @ciderchat
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• Join the #ciderGoingUP Campaign today! 

The September 2022 French Cider Tour will visit the Musée du Cidre and Ciderie Prié. Find out more at the info page

Karine Prié

Jean-Yves Prié (1948-2021) and wife Janine founded the Musée du Cidre (The Cider Museum) in 1987 on a farm and orchard dating back to 1850. The family is now the 5th generation of makers on the farm, only recently they began selling it commercially when the museum opened. In 2018 the Musée was updated and expanded to now overlook the cider production. Upon arrival the entrance is flanked by apples trees. There is a large circular cider mill where at one time a horse would have been hitched up to the long wooden arm to whirl about a heavy circular stone that crushed the apples. 

To the left is a bottle shop and tasting room where Cider, Pommeau and Calvados can be purchased. In this same area is a spacious gift shop. I spent a bit of time just gazing upwards at the architecture of the old wooden ceiling.

The museum entrance is across from the bottle shop and definitely worth a visit!  The first room has an assortment of collections both on apples and photos of cidermaking in the region.  I thought that was enough but was then lead into the new addition with high ceilings and a collection of historical cidermaking equipment.

Son Philippe Prié has taken over the cidermaking duties and his wife Karine the museum and store. Today is it a show piece that has breathtaking views and of course excellent cider!

Philippe Prié

• 44 different apple varieties
• At the entrance is a conservancy for the apples in the area to keep the really old varieties
• 3 full time employees
• A working farm with milk cows and orchards

Contact for Musée du Cidre and Cidre Prie

• Website: https://www.museeducidre.fr/ 

Mentions in this Chat

• French Cider Tour | Normandy and Brittany September 18th-24th, 2022

2018 Totally Cider Tour at Domaine Dupont

Support this Sponsors of Cider Chat, so they can continue to support this podcast and help you make great cider!

• Fermentis - Yeast and Fermentation Solutions for Cidermakers

Please Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
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• Join the #ciderGoingUP Campaign today! 

In 1997 Arnaud Jouny was a professional bee keeper. In 2014 he built the current building where he both makes cidre and poire and also distills. He also makes a local product known as Chouchen.  All products made at Domaine Jouny are grown or raisded (bees) using organic practices. 

Arnaud Jouny holding Eau de Vie Poire

Chouchen is kind of a cross between a Cyser and Mead. A Cyser is a fermentation of apple juice with some honey. Mead is fermented honey.

Chouchen is the process of first fermenting apple juice and then adding honey. It is believed that the Druids introduced Chouchen to the locals and rumored that they also added bee bodies and bee venom. It is also said, that one glass of Chouchen would make you fall backwards and not wake up until a few days later. Today Chouchen is enjoyed as an aperitif.

From the coastal city of Saint Malo, Domaine Jouny is about a 30 minute drive to the east. There are some apples trees on site, but Arnaud gets most of his fruit from nearby orchards.

Front face of Domaine Jouny

Contact Arnaud Jouny

• Website: https://cidrejouny.wordpress.com/

• French Cider Tour Normandy & Brittany, France - September 18th-24th, 2022

Please Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
• Twitter @ciderchat
• Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
• Cider Chat FaceBook Page
• Cider Chat YouTube

• Join the #ciderGoingUP Campaign today! 

In this episode: Patrice Giard recorded during the Totally Cider Tour to Normandy France in September 2018. The upcoming 2022 French Cider Tour will be making a stop at this ciderie.

• Patrice is a 13th generation cidermaker at this family farm.
• Patrice, his wife and his daughter are running the farm. His daughter’s focus is on milk production with Patrice focusing on the cider production.
• The trees in the orchard that we were walking in were planted in 1996.

In the tasting room Patrice Giard

• Domaine du Calvados  also known as De Clou
• Bisque
• Frequin Rouge

• 30 hectares of orchards on a 120 hectare farm
• Standard size trees
• The orchard management is to prunes the apples trees every three years.
• The orchards itself has 50 different varieties
• As required by the appellation of Pays d’Auge Patrice needs to have a map of the apple varieties in the orchard
• Patrice does not use any pesticides on his orchards.

Orchard management tip:

When Patrice notices insects on the trees, he lets the cows in the orchard to graze and they will scratch their bodies on the trees and in turn knock off the insects.

While standing in the oak barrel room I asked ‘What is the minimum time that the barrels stay empty” The reply is that “There is no reason to keep the barrels empty” :)

• Address: D101 -D85A, 14340 MONTREUIL-EN-AUGE

• French Cider Tour Normandy & Brittany, France - September 18th-24th, 2022

Please Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
• Twitter @ciderchat
• Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
• Cider Chat FaceBook Page
• Cider Chat YouTube

• Join the #ciderGoingUP Campaign today! 

In the 1700s ceramic teapots were the political bumper stickers of the day! In this episode we hear about the Cyder Act teapot that the Museum of the American Revolution located in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania has just acquired. The museum’s Curator of Collections, Mark Turdo, tells us how the British based uprisings against the over reaching Cyder Act played a pivotal role in the American Revolution –  in that they help to teach American how to protest! Placing your dissent on teapots was an obvious protest and that is exactly what the Cyder Pot helped to teach!

In these modern time uprising against tyranny happens on a daily basis, but colonist in the New World were dedicated to the crown and it was unheard of to revolt…That is until they began seeing English cidermakers revolt against taxation when the Cyder Act was introduced.

These ceramic Cyder Act Pots were made in England and displayed in homes, but their symbolism was far reaching. Taxation’s heavy hand was being push back and that alone was monumental forward thinking!

Great Britain was on the hunt for more revenue and the Stamp Act was their ticket in the New World. It was set up to stamp a duty (tax) on newspapers and legal and commercial documents. Thanks to the models of resistance displayed by the British cidermakers and their Cyder Act Teapots, Americans saw that they too could revolt against taxation!

The Stamp Act never gained footing and was repealed a year after it was introduced.  This is all to say that the path to freedom and independence from tyranny is not always a straight forward path. The Cyder Act Pot is a perfect example of  a monumental sidebar lesson that helped fuel the American Revolution!

Take a deep dive into this story in English Cider Fermented the American Revolution via Mark Turdo’s blog Pommel Cyder

Mark also recommends Chapter 4 “The Cider Tax, Popular Symbolism and Opposition in Mid-Hanoverian England,” in Markets, Market Culture and Popular Protest in Eighteenth-Century Britain and Ireland, edited by Adrian Randall and Andrew Charlesworth.

Hear English cidermaker Julian Temperly of Somerset Brandy and Burrow Hill Cider  share his tale and take on the historical Cyder Act Clock

Go to the following Facebook link to watch a 7-minute video on this topic: https://www.facebook.com/share/v/14qV3aEZaf/

• website: https://www.amrevmuseum.org/

• French Cider Tour | Normandy and Brittany September 18th-24th, 2022

• InciderJapan – Japan’s first and only bilingual magazine dedicated to all things cider