Board Level – Details, episodes & analysis

This episode, Catherine interviews Nicki Kenyon, Director of Powered Enterprise, Nine, who has worked in leadership positions across the travel, finance and tech industries in Australia and internationally. Catherine also interviews Alex Sloane, the Director of Customer Marketing at Facebook. 

Valuable Discussion Points  

[00:49] Did Nicki sit down and plan her career? 

Nicki’s career has evolved out of her own personal development, and her career, as a result, represents a combination of different cities, companies and people she has worked in and with. Her always-on approach to learning has seen Nicki move from industry to industry in an attempt to better understand that particular area. She makes informed decisions that have taken her outside of her comfort zone which has been rewarding and challenging. 

[03:49] How would Nicki describe her leadership style?  

Nicki resonates with the idea of being a democratic leader and would describe her leadership style as inclusive and respectful. Whilst she draws on her own experience, expertise and perspective, she believes a critical leadership skill is embracing and the contribution of all people and really listening to the ideas they may have.  

[08:41] What sparked Nicki’s decision to join her first board? 

As an executive at an online travel company, Nicki found herself in the boardroom with a diverse group of directors who weren't necessarily involved in the day to day running of the business like she was herself.  However, they were just as passionate and committed to the success of the business and therefore they were able to add perspective to the job she was doing. Being part of this experience inspired Nicki towards a board approach with her career allowing her to leverage her skills in different ways.  

[12:31] What is the one thing Nicki wished she had known when she set out on her board careers? 

For Nicki, the accountability and the responsibility of a board directorship is not something to be taken lightly and she thinks any prospective board member should consider that carefully and not be distracted or flattered by an opportunity that presents itself. Another is the importance of fully understanding board dynamics, learning where you fit in amongst it and appreciating the value each member has.  

[14:57] What sort of manager and leader is Alex? How would she describe herself?  

Alex believes her role as a manager and as a leader is to create an environment for others to succeed. Her goal is to ensure that everyone has the best experience of their career when they're working alongside her, and to provide opportunities for people to thrive,  learn,  grow and succeed. 

[17:09] What Alex thought of taking the AICD course versus an MBA?  

Whilst Alex was considering undertaking her MBA, she was encouraged to take the AICD course instead as the modules within this course aligned more closely with her career experience. One of her favourite modules was the finance module which was a surprise to Alex, who is much more of a strategic, creative person by nature, however this module exposed her to new ideas and concepts that she found incredibly enriching.  

[18:08] What is the importance of sense and clarity of purpose for Alex? 

Alex strongly believes that aligning personal values to the values of the company you’re working for or with is incredibly important and leading with a clear sense of why you are there is critical. 

[21:29] What is the one thing Alex wished she had known when she set out on her board careers? 

Like Nicki, Alex agrees that responsibility and legal accountability are extremely important to understand. Being part of any board, you are surrounded by a group of very diverse thinkers and it can be difficult to navigate sometimes. Diplomacy can only bring you so far but knowing the board’s varying tenures, different backgrounds and accomplishments can alleviate this. Additionally, Alex found the  AICD course extremely helpful in preparing her for this. 

[26:42] What kind of boost to confidence did the course give Alex and Nicki? 

For Alex, taking the knowledge and experience of the AICD course back to her current role gave her an increased understanding that ultimately benefited her customers. She had a better understanding of what the boardroom conversation was like, particularly around marketing, investment and all the different factors that go into it. 

For Nicki, it confirmed to her that she made the right decision. The course was very serious and practical, the relationships she was able to build with her cohorts were very valuable. Passing the exams gave Nicki a huge confidence boost and made her feel that she came out of the course more rounded and committed to embarking on her board career.  

Key Learnings  

• Opening yourself to new learnings can guide you towards new companies, organisations and industries.  
• Mentors are important, they can energise you, allow you bounce ideas off them and sense check yourself through another person’s perspective.  
• Moving from an executive to a board position has less to do about age or stage of career but more about skills. People work through their careers at different paces, people have different jobs and these create a different number of experiences.  
• A network is important, people from all over the country and from such diverse fields, can be incredibly enriching.  

Quotable Quotes  

“My career opportunities have often come about because of that always on learning trait I have, curiosity, if you like.” – Nicki Kenyon 

“I think the single most powerful outcome or outtake from that experience would be a genuine embracing of diversity of thinking.” – Nicki Kenyon 

“If a company or a CEO doesn't have a clear sense of purpose, it's harder for me and everybody else in that organisation to support the organisation's goal.” – Nicki Kenyon 

“I don't believe there's an age or stage that necessarily is the trigger for it being the right time for a board, because, again, there are as many different boards as there are people in their experiences.” – Nicki Kenyon 

“I think being in a company where my values feel aligned to the company's values has always been important and leading with a clear sense of why you're here is critical.” – Alex Sloane  

“I love that phrase, her success is not your failure and I think that's so important. There's plenty of glory and success and opportunity around for everybody so keeping that in mind as you help people but you also ask for help as well.” – Alex Sloane  

Important Resources and Links  

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. 

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. 

If you’re interested in connecting with Nicki and Alex or viewing their professional portfolios and achievements, visit their LinkedIn: 

Nicki - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicki-kenyon 

Alex - https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandra-sloane-gaicd-4720954  

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, and Iain Wilson. 

This episode, Catherine interviews Pip Marlow, the CEO of Salesforce ANZ & ASEAN, and previously the CEO of Customer Marketplace for Suncorp Group and Managing Director of Microsoft. Pip is also a non-executive director of Rugby Australia, sits on the Vice-Chancellor’s Advisory Board at UTS and is a member of the Chief Executive Women.

Valuable Discussion Points

[10:05] What is Pip’s criteria for selecting board roles?

If Pip was asked to sit on a board in the banking and insurance industry before she joined Suncorp, she would have been hesitant as this is not somewhere she had previously pictured herself. If she had held that perspective, she would have missed out on one of the best development opportunities of her career. So for Pip, taking time to understand why you think you're not interested in something and testing your biases and your assumptions can actually open up an incredible opportunity for yourself and your career.

[14:13] What are Pip’s thoughts on board diversity?

Pip is a big believer in board diversity; however, she wouldn’t let a lack of diversity on a board stop her from taking a certain role This is because it empowers you to get that first seat at the table, seek to understand why it hasn't occurred to date and look at what systems, symbols, and policy settings need to change to ensure that more diversity can flourish in the future.

[18:05] Is Pip a user of social media?  Does she think social media is useful to a board director?

Pip believes social media is a powerful platform that has responsibilities for each user. There is a conversation going on there which people have a choice to participate in to use for good not everybody does that, but the conversation will occur either way.

[24:47] On the number of female CEOs in the ASX200 dropping down, what are Pip’s thoughts?

Pip believes the rate of change has been glacial and as a result is truly deeply dissatisfied with progress. When she saw the latest stats with the ASX numbers decreasing, she saw that as a real sign of concern. Pip says that this is not a women’s issue, this is a gender equity issue and if we don't do something proactive to change that participation, then we'll accept where we are which is not good for our future generations.

[28:58] What is the one thing that Pip wish she’d known when she started out on her board career?

The first thing Pip wishes she had known was not to let your fear hold you back. The second thing is to know the difference between management and board. What are your decision rights? Your role is to govern, to oversee and to set risk appetite and ultimately help to get that balance right.

Key Learnings

• You have to be organised and conscious on how you use your time and your trade-offs. Have a habit every month of tracking how you are spending your time; did you spend enough time for your family? For your customers? For your strategic thinking?
• When a board is reaching out to you, there is nothing wrong with doing due diligence. A little bit of discovery and exploration in those early conversations will go a long way and contribute to your decision-making process.
• If you opt not to join a board after a role is offered, the best gift that you can give is to promote other men and women. Shine a light on some of the talent that they may not see.

Quotable Quotes

“Shareholders are not only one, your employees are stakeholders, your community is a stakeholder, your customers are stakeholders, and sometimes certain stakeholders have one object they care most about, maybe that's profit. You have to think beyond just one particular stakeholder and just the shareholders to the broader community that you serve and operate in.” – Pip Marlow

“I try and say it's not about something being right for you. It's what's best for you right now because if only something one thing is right, everything else is wrong. When we put that pressure right and wrong in a decision like this, I think it can stop you taking a step forward because you're worried about it being the wrong thing.”– Pip Marlow

“If it's not the right one for you, shine a light on some of the talent out there that may not be seen by other people because that's the gift you can give.” – Pip Marlow

“When I feel like I'm a female raising this issue, people say are you self-serving? This isn't about self-serving. This is about everybody having equal access to jobs opportunities.” – Pip Marlow

“You can't let your fear hold you back because that holds you back from contributing, holds you back from helping others. So don't listen to your fears, your imposters, your insecurities. You're sitting at that table because you earned it.”– Pip Marlow

Important Resources and Links

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.

If you’re interested in connecting with Pip Marlow or viewing her professional portfolios and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/pipmarlow

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson

Lisa Sthalekar is a former Australian cricketer and is on the boards of the Chappell Foundation and the Federation of International Cricketers' Assocations.

In this special episode to celebrate International Women's Day and the T20 Women's Cricket World Cup, Lisa talks about how leadership in sports translates to the wider world, what she admires in a leader, changing the inherent bias in cricket language and the growing diversity of the sport.

[01:02] How did you become a world class cricketer? What’s your story?

Born in India, Lisa was adopted by a white English mother and an Indian father. Lisa said that when she was young she followed her Dad around everywhere, and cricket happened to be one of his passions so she was naturally drawn to the sport. Growing up going to cricket games at the SCG, Lisa quickly developed a deep curiosity but soon realised the barriers that existed around girls playing cricket in Australia. It wasn’t until Lisa was around 10 that her dad spoke to the local boys team and asked if she could play with them, and while they were hesitant about a girl playing for an all boys club this is where she did end up playing and this is where her passion for the game was developed.

[03:09] Did you believe this was the norm that only boys could play cricket?

Unbeknownst to the world of women’s cricketing Lisa learned through motivation by both herself and her parents that there were a number of opportunities for her to progress in Australian cricket, however, she also knew she had to get out of her comfort zone in order to do so. 

[04:31] Was the idea of Cricket as a career unthinkable growing up?

Even following her retirement in 2013, Lisa was unsure what her next steps would be. Throughout her career, Lisa was juggling both full time work, training commitments and taking leave when she went on tours for cricket Australia. While Lisa was consistently one of the highest paid women Cricketers throughout her career, the economy of women’s cricket didn’t allow for total focus, however, Lisa notes that seven years on from her retirement some women are getting paid triple figures and opportunities are growing. 

[05:31] What do you think being a leader of sports team and being a leader in the business world have in common?

Lisa believes that a leader, regardless of whether they are in business or on a sporting team, have a clear goal and can communicate with large, varying groups of people on how to achieve this goal. Finding a common goal amongst a group of people and using your passion to extract this from them is difficult, but essential in becoming a good leader.

[06:57] Can you give us some examples of how the language used in women’s sport is changing to fit the more inclusive and progressive nature of sports nowadays?

Being a commentator Lisa understands that the history of many sports, including cricket, has been dominated by male players, announcers and terminology. However, she’s noticing that with a change in opportunity, people around the game are beginning to understand the importance of using gender-neutral terms. For example, batsman into batter, or man of the match into player of the match. Lisa believes this is important as it teaches the youth watching that there is this opportunity for women to participate and succeed. Lisa also believes it’s the role of the commentator as the first line of reception for these young kids to be the pioneers of this change. 

[10:29] Who are some great leaders you’ve admired?

Former New South Wales and Australia Cricket Captain, Belinda Clark was deeply influential for Lisa as she was an instrumental leader throughout nearly her entire professional career. Lisa believed that Belinda was passionate and showed time and time again what it took to come back from adversity and get better following defeat. She said that her ability to understand her team and adjust her leadership style gave her the longevity and capability to lead both the veterans and the younger players throughout her career.[13:09] Where do you think this growth around women’s participation in all aspects of sports is coming from?

Speaking on the progression of the cricketing world, Lisa understands the traditionalist view of men being the dominant participants and commentators of cricket on the world stage. During the 2010’s Lisa recognises the Indian Premier League as a league that acknowledged the potential audience they could reach if they included more women commentary and participation on the world stage. This quickly transitioned into other markets in England and Australia. Not only does Lisa believe the inclusion of women opens up more of the game to a wider audience but it freshens up a sport that was deeply rooted in old models of equality. 

[15:55] What’s happening at the grassroots level of women’s participation in cricket? 

Lisa believes that the exposure women’s cricket is getting on TV has contributed to this change in participation for cricket youth. Lisa also recognises that by exposing young girls to this level of professionalism, they’re motivated to press the competitive nature of the game and progress the talent level and commitment based on opportunity.

[16:58] With this change, what do you see happening with women and sport in the broader context over the next few years?

Lisa understands that further progression of not only women’s cricket but women’s sport in Australia will rely on the level of viewership the game receives. Cricket Australia has given the women’s sport exposure and the next step will be the league positioning itself to increase sponsorship, contracts and investments in development. 

[18:31] With the I.C.C Women’s T20 World Cup being held in Australia this year and the final taking place in Melbourne on International Women’s Day, the event is aiming to break the world record for the largest audience at a standalone women’s sporting match. What would it mean globally if this was achieved?

Lisa hopes and believes this event will be like many other historic Australian sporting moments, likening it to Kathy Freeman winning gold in the 2000 Sydney Olympics, everybody will stop and recognise this occasion as a landmark. The resources and engagement the I.C.C and organising committee have placed on the event reassures Lisa that the opportunity’s and environment being established for the younger generations of women cricketers is one that will sustain and permeate. 

Key Learnings

• A leader has clear goals and a clear direction on how to get there and they have the ability to communicate with their team understanding that everybody receives and reacts to motivation differently.

• A crucial aspect of being a good leader is your ability to adapt your leadership style over time and predicated by the community or person you’re trying to lead. 

• In exposing young women to the professional and growing opportunity for women cricketers this is creating a more competitive pool of talent in the grassroots competitions. 

• Women athletes understand their responsibility as public figures and their roles as models for younger women. 

• One of the key determinants of women’s exposure and growth on the national stage is an increase in viewership.

Quotable Quotes

“So there is this passion, this love that is festering underneath everything. You've got to kind of use that to an advantage. Leaders of sport are able to enhance or extract that from everyone else.” - Lisa Sthalekar

“They're not in the back pages for the wrong reasons. They're not on the front pages, for the wrong reasons, they're there because of what they've done, their skill, their athleticism. I'd like to think in the next 5 to 10 years that female athletes start to dominate this country because we have been dominating for a long period of time but now it's our time to shine.” – Lisa Sthalekar on women athletes as role models. 

“It's going to be one of those moments. Firstly, if we just break it down to Australian sports, where was I when Cathy Freeman won gold? Where was I when Pat Rafter was playing Wimbledon final? Those types of moments in sport that you go, oh, I know exactly what I was doing, where I was.” – Lisa Sthalekar 

Resources and Links 

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.

If you would like to learn more about how Commbank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.

If you would like to view Lisa’s achievements and experience or connect with her please visit her LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-sthalekar-b1b0249a/?originalSubdomain=au.

If you would like to learn more about Lisa’s cricketing achievements and involvement in the sport see her bio here, https://www.cricket.com.au/players/lisa-sthalekar/NUw3gaspuU-9m8QE8yyP6w.

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Jillian Broadbent AC FAICD is one of the most experienced directors in Australia.

Currently chair of Swiss Re Life and a director of Woolworths, Jillian has also previously held positions on the boards of the Reserve Bank of Australia, the ASX, Coca-Cola Amatil, SBS, Qantas, Westfield Property Trusts and Woodside Petroleum. She has also been on numerous arts boards, including the Australian Brandenburg Orchestra and the Sydney Theatre Company.

Here Jillian talks about how she built her extraordinary career, the best chairs she has worked with, how she stays across so many sectors, her advice to those starting out on their director journey and what's next for her.

Valuable Discussion Points

[01:26] How has Jillian managed to successfully navigate various boards responsible for numerous business sectors and industries?

Executive experience in the financial sector allowed Jillian to successfully transition into a board career in which she operated on multiple boards with different industry focuses. Jillian also believes finding purpose in each board makes it much easier to distinguish your responsibilities. 

[02:14] Does Jillian believe she’s bringing a different approach to each board depending on its nature, e.g. listed, government, not for profit? 

While Jillian acknowledges that she’s always on a learning curve based on the diverse nature of her work, she posits that the governance and responsibility is similar and only requires an appetite for learning about that specific sector to really sustain engagement and interest. 

[06:02] Does Jillian think it’s smart for a new NED to take on multiple director positions at the beginning of their career?  

Naturally, at the beginning of a Director’s career they’ll want to be involved in a lot, however, Jillian believes that every individual has a personal mental and physical capacity that will be tested by a NED role. She believes that knowing what this capacity is important in creating a strong balance at the beginning of a career.

[06:44] What are some of the advantages of gaining early experience on not for profit boards, especially when you’re considering a career as a NED or Director?  

Not for profit boards are often used by prospective NED’s to gain valuable experience on the characteristics you must possess to be Director. Jillian believes that unlike traditional executive roles, being a NED requires patience and observation as you become not the one asking the questions but one of many in a collaboration of answering them. Jillian also recognises the importance of knowing how to navigate a board room and its various members, whom often possess different values and experiences to you.

[08:43] What distinguishes a ‘good’ Chair?

Arguably the most important part of any board dynamic is the Chair. This individual is responsible for maintaining a healthy dynamic of board members and meetings, and Jillian believes this is achieving through valuing your input and view on any given discussion or topic.

[09:59] What are some key challenges Jillian has faced when joining a new board?

Jillian speaks on her experience of joining the Clean Energy Finance Corporation and within a few months being told by the government that it was going to be abolished. She highlights this ordeal as a time in which she learnt how to navigate adversity on a large scale, and that when you join a board, you’re being brought in to better it and encourage the members to want to excel. 

[11:08] When considering issues or discussions on a board who do you talk to in order to better understand your approach or thoughts on the topic?

Due to the often stagnant nature of the annual board meeting schedule, Jillian believes informal dialogue between board members is crucial in sustaining healthy communication, building rapport and relationships as well as gaining a better understanding of the room’s dynamics

[12:43] What are some critical skills you believe would assist potential women NED in attempting to begin a career as a director on boards?

Jillian understands that transitioning into a board career isn’t an easy task as it takes diligence in your time and thoughts. Being a NED requires a wealth of knowledge on the topic at hand and preparation for any question or situation. Jillian also believes you need to develop comfortability with your Chair and fellow members so that you can become satisfied with any decision regardless of outcome.              

[14:44] How do you manage disagreements on a board?

Jillian shares her experiences in not allowing any disagreement within a board to become personal. She believes it’s a skill you must learn in order to understand when and if someone is attacking your point of view or perspective, always bring it back to the subject of the discussion. Once an individual begins to make a disagreement personal or diverts from the subject it diminishes their capacity to contribute. 

[16:53] How do you maintain a level of enthusiasm and interest in your board roles when your schedule becomes busier? 

Jillian, who states she’s always been a person of curiosity, believes that each individual has their own capacity in which they need to fill. Personally, this need to discover and diverse passion for a range of industries and topics has allowed Jillian to maintain enthusiasm and drive for an extended period of time. 

[18:26] What are Jillian’s thoughts on the current landscape of women’s involvement in board rooms and board room roles?

Jillian believes that she has seen growth, particularly within the industry sectors she’s involved in, however, acknowledges the change has and remains glacial. Any effective Chair understands that the most important diversity is the diversity of thought and this is only achieved by allowing a variety of values, experiences and people to represent these positions. 

[20:10] How can you challenge aspects of ‘group think’ within a board?

Jillian recognises that group think stems from the complacency of executives and the Chair in not promoting diverse opportunities and individuals who possess individual thought with the ultimate goal being to consider the members of the organisation, whether that be employees, stakeholders etc. 

[20:53] Who are some of the directors that have impressed you over the years and what qualities do they typically possess? 

Jillian believes that a good director must approach all board meetings with a diligence of briefs and a consistent understanding of company direction. She believes that having a position like this allows for you to be a leader and always think laterally so then to allow others to continue growing and evolving with you. 

[22:26] What advice would you give to a woman considering a transition or preparing for a transition into a NED career?

Jillian recognises that this transition is all about timing, because as discussed prior becoming a NED is a mentally and physically taxing role. Preparing for this type of role is also just as important and can be conducted through procuring any style of executive or governing position experience within your organisation. 

[24:06] What are Jillian’s future career plans?

Jillian has and believes she always will continue to look only at the task at hand and never any further. Planning and scheduling within an annual board calendar has allowed Jillian to maintain focus and she has no plans to stop this style of occupation

Key Learnings 

• Every board, regardless of industry or sector, proposes new and valuable lessons and you must be prepared for these. 

• Evaluate your mental and physical capacity before making a decision to join a specific board. 

• When you’re an executive you’re more in control of outcomes, whereas as a NED you become more a part of the conversation. 

• Informal dynamics of being a NED are nearly just as important as the formal meetings. 

• Focus on the subject at hand, no matter the state of the room - at any point if you bring it back to the subject it can be productive. 

• The most important diversity is the diversity of thought and if you limit this diversity it instantly becomes detrimental to the company. 

• Group think refers to the practice of thinking or generating a decision as a group and is typically unchallenged and promotes poor-quality decision making.

Quotable Quotes 

“I think everyone’s got to adjust their load with their capacity and I say their capacity being their mental and physical capacity” – Jillian Broadbent

“I think… as an executive, you’re so much more in control of outcomes and what you can do about it, whereas as a non-executive you’re one step removed from that” – Jillian Broadbent

“I think making your voice heard is more a matter of what you’re saying rather than how you’re saying it. If you do your homework and you’ve got the facts and you understand what the company is really focused on… then it’s usually pretty effective” - Jillian Broadbent 

“When you do have a concentration of shareholding, you realise that your impact or potential impact as one non-executive director is much more diluted” – Jillian Broadbent 

Important Resources and Links | 

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.

If you’re interested in learning more about Jillian’s contributions to the finance, arts and higher education sectors as well as her career achievements, view her biography on Advance https://www.advance.org/jillian-broadbent, or read more about her on her University of Wollongong Australia page https://www.uow.edu.au/about/governance/governance-structure/university-council/jillian-broadbent/.

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Melanie Willis is a non-executive director of Challenger Limited, Southern Cross Austereo, PayPal Australia and Chief Executive Women. Previously, she was CEO of NRMA Investments  and a director of Deutsche Bank.

Here Melanie talks about finding the right board, how to have your voice heard at the board table, the importance of listening and making the transition from your executive career to the boardroom.

Valuable Discussion Points 

[01:22] How does a director position themselves effectively to make their voices heard amongst a board?

Melanie believes that there are three key ways in which a director can effectively position themselves within a board. These include; make sure you’re picking the right board considering your skills, expertise and future outlook or vision for the company. It also looks at your ability to understand the competitive economic environment and source perspectives from outside of the industry. And lastly, the consideration of timing and knowing that it's not always about raising the point but also supporting others. 

[02:52] What are some useful tactics in creating a healthy dynamic within a board?

Melanie believes that in order to promote a healthy flow of discussion and decision making amongst a board, as a director, timing is everything. You must know when to say something and it needs to be substantial and effective within the brief of the meeting. Melanie also states that leaning in to your point and ensuring that you’re forthcoming in your deliverance and nothing is lost in translation.

[03:33] How do you know you’re on the right board?

It’s all about fit when it comes to feeling good about being on a board. Ensure that you are passionate about the industry aspects and have performed all the research you possibly can on your relevant board, as this will allow you to more comfortably promote discussion and debate. Melanie also insists that the Chair plays an instrumental role in allowing this discussion and promoting a level of engagement throughout all levels of a board and organisation.

[04:58] How do you find the balance of when to speak up on a board and when to listen?

While Melanie acknowledges that like many aspects of business, you can be as prepared as anyone but you will always learn your most on the job, she also posits that there’s a level of personal liability on a director to know when to ask the right question. Not only is it about finding a cut through, amongst all the discussions and decisions, but you must always remember who you’re representing. Melanie says that when she’s in a board meeting she considers the perspectives of everyone of her stakeholders; regulators, customers, investors and employees.

[08:20] How important do you think diversity is within a board?

Melanie believes that diversity within a board promotes better business values and allows for you to operate optimally as it forces you to consider the IQ and EQ of the room, as well as reduce the dominance of one individual as there’s more diverse voices, experiences and values. Melanie also believes that by promoting diversity within boards, this also allows members to learn and navigate different social cues, which is an instrumental aspect of any good operation within a board room.

[10:51] How do you manage the dynamics of a boardroom table?

A board amongst other things aims to handle conflict and dissension and this can only be managed if all members maintain good values and business principles. Melanie believes the Chair sustains this dynamic by ensuring that all individuals are heard and listened to, and ultimately they lead to an acknowledgement of long term sustainability.

 [12:39] How do you deal with creative abrasion as a director?

It's important to understand how to manage conflict and provide resolutions that lead to growth and improvement both for the individuals involved and the business. Melanie believes that as a director you can not be scared of creative abrasion rather you should welcome the idea of generating discussion. The combination of directors with a wealth of ASX experience with non-ASX directors that do have the preferred skills in handling creative abrasion and disruption can be a healthy dynamic if managed effectively by the Chair and other board members.

[15:18] Outside of meetings how do you communicate ‘informally’ with other board members?

Melanie believes that the skills you develop on a board can be taught and learnt in various aspects of business life. Melanie promotes the following of passions as it relates to board involvement, even sacrificing professional gain to learn more about the way these directors and boards operate. She also insists that it all comes down to seeking people and thought leaders you find interesting, sitting down, having a cup of coffee and picking their brain.

[17:00] How do you manage a career as a Non-Executive Director?

Deciding over 15 years ago, Melanie has navigated life as a NED and director with the intent to understand the minds of other directors and learning that while she may know the right questions to ask, it's how you can answer that question that’s important for a director. A 24/7 job, Melanie insists that maintaining success as NED is in preparation, research and trusting your ability to deliver and discuss issues and opportunities. Melanie also believes she’s constantly learning and evolving, ensuring that she tries to give back to emerging directors as a mentor whenever she can.

[19:44] What are some of the essential skills you choose to inform emerging women directors?

While Melanie believes it’s important to fulfil the criteria of a brief in regards to relevant skills and expertise, she highlights that new directors need to be able to instil confidence in themselves so they can take risks and continue to move laterally as a person and as a director.

[21:18] How do you know when it’s the right time to transition into a board role?

Melanie believes that if you maintain an executive role and continue to grow you profit and loss (P&L) skills then this will increase your opportunity and confidence in transitioning at any time. Melanie also insists that if you’re thinking about making the transition, ensure you’re being a leader within your current role, as the characteristics of a leader translate effectively, incorporating aspects of understanding, listening and conflict resolution.

[25:15] What are some challenges Melanie faced as a growing director and what does she believe she’s learnt from them?

Melanie believes that in any position she’s had as a director there’s been dissension conflict, however she believes that throughout her career these moments have provided her the ability to self-reflect and learn from with resilience. She also believes that she’s learnt to look at every company she’s involved in as a ‘day one’ company, which forces her to remind herself the reasons she took the position in the first place.

[27:25] What perspective do you have on the progression of women around board tables?

Deeply involved in the progression of women’s involvement around boards and Executive positions in Australian businesses and industries, Melanie understands the disparities of women’s involvement in Chief Executive roles. While acknowledging the growth of the industry standard with groups such as Chief Executive Women (CEW) and the Male Champions of Change, she insists there needs to be a better understanding of why these disparities exist and create a more fluid progression of equality within these positions to make it a permanent characteristic of boards.

Key Learnings

• Don’t be afraid to invite someone to get a cup of coffee, that’s where the best conversations are had.
• If you’re not finding you’re receiving the opportunity you want at your current workplace or organisation, be brave and look somewhere else.
• While there are 60% of women graduates there are only 2% of women CEO’s.
• Creative abrasion refers to the conflict that arises between people or groups in regards to business decisions, tactics and strategies. Understanding and managing these differing interpretations is an important part of being a director.
• Understand the importance of profit and loss skills and strategies relevant to each industry and sector.

 Quotable Quotes 

 “It’s having lots of coffees with people not to say ‘how do I get on a board?’, but to understand how they think as directors” – Melanie Willis

“in certain areas like the CFO role we’re going forward, [however] CEO we’re going backwards” – Melanie Willis

“I think we have a lot of amazing supporters. We’ve got the Male Champions of Change and we have 600 CW women, but clearly progress is still glacial, and we need to work harder and we need to be more focused in how we drive that” – Melanie Willis

“I would just encourage women to be brave, to take risks, and to not take no for an answer” – Melanie Willis.

Important Resources and Links 

 If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.

If you’re interested in connecting with Melanie or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-w-2997197/?originalSubdomain=au.

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Robin Low is one of the busiest directors in Australia. She sits on the boards of Appen, AUB Group Limited, CSG Limited, IPH Limited and she is the deputy chairman of the Auditing and Assurance Standards Board. She is also a director of not-for-profits Public Education Foundation and Primary Ethics. Prior to this, Robin was a partner at PwC for more than 17 years.

Here Robin talks about finding your feet on a board, preparing for a director career, interpersonal dynamics and managing your workload as a director on multiple boards.

Valuable Discussion Points

[01:25] How long did it take Robin to get the lay of the land on a board in regard to participation and discussions?

Robin believes that the approach you have to a board depends entirely on the skills you offer and the culture in which it fosters. Having a background in auditing committees, she was given the skills and knowledge on how to effectively navigate a board room that promotes different communication styles and dynamics. Robin observes as a director, admitting that it took time to build the confidence to contribute, but recognises her contributions as reflective and well-timed.

[04:33] Are there any traps in entering a board as a beginner or the new person?

Naturally, people will enter a new board wanting to change the fabric of it, however, Robin believes that your value will be most recognised if you begin by observing and reflecting on the conversations and decisions made. This will allow you to receive and disseminate feedback whilst honing your skills and expertise to most accurately understand where and when to contribute. Robin also recognises the importance of a good chairman in regard to setting expectations for new board members and their ability and capacity to contribute to the flow of the meetings and organisation.

[07:07] What are the expectations from fellow directors and the chair when you join a new board?

A chair isn’t bringing you onto a board expecting anything other than what they believe you are capable of. Establishing these expectations early and understanding your value proposition within the organisation allows for clarity and accountability.

[09:41] What are some observations Robin has made surrounding the dynamics of decision making within a board?

Heavily influenced by the ability the chairman has to maintain a constant tone within meetings, they must understand the dynamics of situations and their risks as well as the individuals within the board. Healthy risk assessment, however, takes time, and the importance of this in regards to influential decision making is constantly evaluated throughout boards and their meetings.

[14:08] What’s the nature of chairing committees and would Robin suggest it to an emerging Director?

An effective tool, Robin believes that her experience in chairing audit and risk committees has consolidated her ability to observe, discuss and deliberate in formal and dynamic settings. Focused more on risk evaluation and more ‘concrete’ discussions, this position promotes your leadership and ability to maintain a committee.

[15:55] Once Robin received her first listed board, did she find this led to further opportunities within the space?

Robin believes that like many formal employment opportunities the necessity for ‘prior experience’ is always lingering, however, she recognises that this narrative must change in order to gain more dynamic boards. Acknowledging that there must be a brief for all positions as a director, Robin also believes that she’s noticed a shifting focus towards finding directors that have experience, knowledge and skills in the requisite field rather than solely prior listed board experience.

[16:47] Did Robin plan for herself to have a career on boards, and what was this transitionary period like for her? 

Robin completed the company directors course with the Australian Institute of Company Directors 5 years prior to departing PWC ensuring that she would be both prepared and informed as she made this transition. Robin’s skills and preparation were highly influential in making this transition; however, she believes the self-managed nature and sporadic interactions amongst board groups were the key learning curves for her.

[19:28] Does Robin have colleagues or peers that she can chat to in order to consolidate ideas?

The ability a director has to interact and develop meaningful relationships with both board members and other directors heavily influences their navigation of ideas and opportunities. While Robin recognises that attending events as a NED is important, she believes her involvement in auditing standards boards and relationships with fellow directors assists her most in developing her skills and ideas.

[20:51] What does a full slate look like for Robin and how does she handle this?

Currently sitting on 4 listed boards, Robin believes the ability an individual has to navigate these are dependent on the schedules of each. Robin also posits that each board, depending on the nature of the industry, the level of regulation and the dynamic of the meetings is the key determinant in her deciding whether or not she can join.

[22:02] What advice does Robin give to aspiring women Directors on when it’s the right time to transition into a board career?

Robin insists that age isn’t the determinant for this transition, rather it’s the level of experience you’ve accumulated both as a professional and as a person. Highlighting ‘timing’ as an important aspect of the process, an individual must be equipped for the role in regard to their skills and experience but also personally ready for the style of self-managed work being a part of a board requires.

[24:44] Is there an appetite for board roles amongst emerging women directors and would Robin like to see the involvement of more women in key decision making within boards?

Robin has noticed an increased monitoring of boards by regulators within recent years, leading to a potential disengagement with the position. However, she also insists that it’s a rich and fulfilling position that allows any individual to highlight their skills and specialise within a specific field or industry that aligns with their value proposition. Robin recognises the importance of promoting diversity within boards in establishing a healthy board dynamic of differing skills, experiences and values. This promotion of a diverse board dynamic ultimately comes down to the capability of the chair in recognising where an individual with a particular set of skills and expertise can provide affective input.

Key Learnings

• Every board has its own culture, it’s up to you to learn how to navigate it.
• Don’t get trapped when you enter a board by trying to change too much, begin by being reflective and observant.
• A chair isn’t bringing you onto a board expecting anything from you that they don’t think you’re capable of.
• While there’s still stigma surrounding the notion of ‘prior listed board experience’, directors are also looking for individuals who have effective skills, knowledge and experience that’s relevant to the industry or organisation of the respective board.
• Procuring experience within company director settings, including the company directors course with AICD allowed Robin the opportunity to effectively transition into a board career.

 Quotable Quotes 

 “We’d love to have you, but you don’t have listed experience. Oh you have listed experience, join us!” – Robin Low on the ‘catch 22’ nature of listed board positions.

“Make sure you’re getting enough… interaction with enough people and enough networks, because in fact it’s actually quite an isolating role in many respects.” – Robin Low

 Importance Resources and Links 

 If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.

If you’re interested in connecting with Robin or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/robin-low-b4b4164/?originalSubdomain=au.

For more information regarding Robin’s various contributions as a Director and as a member of the Auditing and Assurance Standards Board, please view her biography via

https://www.auasb.gov.au/About-the-AUASB/Current-Board-members/Robin-Low.aspx.

 The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Louise is on the boards of Advance, an organisation connecting Australians around the world, HVAC solutions provider Orion Mechanical Services and chair of Hanrob Pet Hotels. In her executive career, she worked in banking, finance and infrastructure at Macquarie Bank, Deutsche Bank and Babcock & Brown.

Here she talks about the search process for boards, how to navigate the system and avoiding 'imposter syndrome'.

Valuable Discussion Points

[01:35] How did Louise approach search consultants and appointments to position herself on boards?

When beginning her career as a NED, Louise was eager to justify her seat and prove her intellect at any turn, suffering from what she believed was ‘imposter syndrome’. Regretting this, she learnt to be honest with search firms and develop transparent and genuine relationships so they work with you in establishing a proposition value for all future board opportunities.

[03:05] What does the search process actually involve when attempting to find a board that suits you?

There’s multiple ways in which you may go through the process into becoming a board member, regardless, Louise believes it comes down to your network and the ability you have to communicate with them about your positioning.

[05:31] When interviewing with a chair or director board, how did/do you learn from those experiences?

Louise believes that the interviewing process is like a ‘dance’, and you have to be relaxed in order for them to see your skills and preparation. Not only are the firms interviewing you, but you’re interviewing them, therefor, highlighting your proposition value so that both sides can benefit from the relationship.

[06:19] Do you speak with current chair and directors and do they give you advice on where you can add value?

Louise is in constant communication regarding her value and ability to leverage her skills to optimize productivity. Operating within risk and complex organisational situations, Louise maintains this communication to ensure clarity in her proposition and decision making values.

[07:39] What are some reassurances that you look for as a prospective board member?

Louise utilises her deep insight and research capabilities to accumulate knowledge, that assisted by her networks, give her the best opportunity to understand board dynamics and the role/position she would be given within a board structure.

[09:39] What are some of the positive and challenging aspects of looking to join a prospective board?

Developing a strategy to approach a board is one of the most difficult aspects of the process, and Louise has found that while it pays to be eager, you’re best to develop trusting and genuine relationships with recruiters so that they can communicate your value for you. Louise also recognises the importance of being considered, and knows that while you may not always get the position, if your name is being discussed amongst recruiters then you’re effectively branding yourself.

[11:39] In retrospect are there any boards you’re glad you missed out on?

Louise recounts a situation in which she was in the running for two separate boards and her decision in continuing the process was affected. On one board, Louise was communicated to that she would be entering an industry structure that would soon be disrupted, while the other offered a more comfortable structure she was hesitant in her ability to command the board room with its current members at the time.

[13:44] Do you find that your appointment on boards is through search consultants or other means?

Louise has found that most of her appointments regarding board positions are established through networks and relationships with firms that understand her proposition value. However, she also recognises that certain boards, particularly government related ones, require a more detailed and regulated process of selection, and this is where her experiences and skills are beneficial.

[16:28] What advice would you give someone beginning the search process?

Louise insists that it’s like a date, some are good and some are bad. The most important aspect of learning from these processes is to rely on your network for support and clarity of decisions made by both yourself in the interviewing process and the prospective firm or board.

[15:45] When speaking to emerging board directors, what are some must have pieces of advice you give to them?

Louise attempts to instill an attitude in her young directors that promotes an environment that’s removed from competition and perfection, and allows conversations surrounding mistakes and experiences.

[16:45] Do you observe ‘imposter syndrome’ in other women within the world of directors and boards?

Louise recognises the world she lives in, and that cognitive diversity exists within the professional workplace. Louise believes that more women need to develop their own individual path rather than following the primarily male one that currently exists. Maintaining humility and understanding mistakes and weaknesses is also a strategy that can be used to position your value.

[17:03] What kind of concerns do you believe women have when considering a move into a board career?

Louise believes that the major concerns stem from a narrative developed within the media and promoted by the public, to which women are utilised as ‘scapegoats’, or an excuse for major changes or disruptions experienced within a businesses or organisation. She also recognises the self-doubt that is prevalent and a lack of awareness surrounding positions and roles.

[18:36] What do you see unfolding in the future that can make board careers take the next step in regard to gender equality?

The nuances of board briefs are formed to be non-gender specific, however, Louise believes that they don’t yet consider the historical inequality of the professional environment. Louise believes in establishing better development and opportunities for women and this will continue to grow the ability search firms have to assess directors who meet the requirements.

[19:40] While there are a series of challenges faced through this process, how satisfying can career as a NED be?

Louise has attempted to indulge in diverse boards, full of varying individuals, ideas and experiences, thus, allowing her to position her value to affect numerous facets of public and private spheres. Once you have refined your skills as a director and developed a strong network you’re also given opportunities to affect non for profits or passion related projects/organisations, something that can be spiritually beneficial.

Key Learnings

• Don’t suffer from ‘imposter syndrome’, firms are looking for all different types of people.
• There are a multitude of process you can go through to be placed on a board, including;

1. You’ve been suggested by the chair
2. You’re the stalking horse yourself.
3. You’ve been referred by other reputable directors.

• It’s all about finding your proposition value and communicating this to search consultants.
• Build trusting and genuine relationships with search firms and networks, you’ll be surprised with the work they’ll do for you.
• The greatest ability you have as an emerging woman director is assisting in developing an environment that’s removed from competition and rather focuses on conversations that aim to improve.
• In order to take the next step in regard to gender equality within board positions rets on both a continued development and education of women directors, and boards/search firms ability to recognise the discrepancy that exists within current board briefs relating to historical inequalities prohibiting fair opportunities.

Quotable Quotes

“It’s hard. It’s like being single and dating. Some dates are really good and some dates are awful” – Louise Thurgood commenting on a board search process.

“I think the director journey, it’s a random walk” – Louise Thurgood

“Start to be more relaxed and dance, because you’re actually interviewing them as well” – Louise Thurgood on how to approach interviewing for a board position

“I share with them my mistakes because I think sometimes what happens in this game, particularly for women, we’ve forgotten that one of our greatest strengths is our ability to share our mistakes” – Louise Thurgood

Important Resources and Links

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.

If you would like to learn more about how Commbank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.

If you’re interested in connecting with Louise or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/louise-thurgood-4a61b96a/?originalSubdomain=au.

For more information regarding Louise’s achievements and involvements on various boards, organisations and industries view her biography as referenced on Advance, an Government funded initiative that connects Australians globally, https://www.advance.org/louise-thurgood.

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Jackie McArthur MAICD is on the boards of poultry producer Inghams, seafood producer Tassal, and funeral services provider Invocare. She is also a former director of Blackmores and in her previous executive life was a supply chain executive at McDonalds.

Here Jackie, a former engineer, talks about moving from management into the boardroom, working with board recruiters, the importance of mentoring and... she reveals the best kept secret of being  director.

Valuable Discussion Points

[01:29] How did Jackie’s pathway lead her to a NED career?

Anything but linear, Jackie’s career began as an engineer, however, eventually she moved into logistics and supply chain management. Building a wealth of experience, Jackie specialised in supply food chain manufacturing, crisis management and consumer insights both nationally and internationally. These skills, along with her understanding of International affairs, had Jackie approached by headhunters who assisted in realizing a long held ambition to be a director and leader.

[05:09] With all the success Jackie was having in management, what made becoming a NED so desirable?

Jackie believes that being a NED is the ‘world's best kept secret’, operating in a capacity that allows you to navigate various industries and businesses. Apart of the new breed of director, Jackie insists that instead of winding down, she’s finding new dynamic ways to affect and influence change for boards and shareholders.

[08:33] How did Jackie’s career give her insight into a NED career?

Stemming from her experience in high tension situations and global affairs, Jackie had the ability to add instant value and insight to any board. This experience also allowed her to understand and navigate a variety of communications and conversations with a number of board members.

[12:04] Do you have any advice for aspiring NED’s in regards to that period of adjustment when affirming your position on a board?

No matter how well you’ve trained or how ripe you are with experience, nothing will prepare you for the meetings and conversations held around a board table. However, Jackie believes that she gives advice with three things in mind;

• How does ‘her’ story relate to them?
• What skill sets (strengths) have assisted her in moving up?
• Where does she need to improve?

 [13:47] What were some desirable skills or lessons you learnt that recruiters like about you that you didn’t expect?

The relevance of varying industry involvement shocked Jackie when she discovered her background in engineering intrigued board recruiters. Throughout her career both nationally and internationally Jackie had been apart of organisations that had issues, and remained apart of these organisations, solving these problems and leaving them better than when she arrived, and recruiters loved this about her.

[19:25] What does your network mentors and mentees look like?

Surrounding herself with ‘champions’, Jackie has a group of roughly 12 individuals who are at all different stages of their career and she trusts them to provide relevant advice and guidance.

[21:54] What would you tell an aspiring women director that you believe would entice them towards a career as a NED?

 A continuation of her career as a manager in various industries, Jackie believes everybody’s journey is different, however, the one constant is that skills and experience will place you in a position to succeed. The evolution of the modern board has resulted in participants not needing any fancy degrees or powerful connections, rather, boards are becoming more diverse, and as long as you’re willing to play the long game, you’ll find one that you’ll be able to influence and change.

Key Learnings 

• A career into becoming a director can, and often is non-linear. There is no perfect pathway.
• Employers like scares, it means you’ve struggled and had the determination to improve.
• Being a NED is the world’s best kept secret
• Surround yourself with champions, and these are people who promote and enable your best interest both in your company and in the company of others.
• Becoming a NED is not something you do at the end of your career for a hobby, it’s a proactive and self-maintained dynamic position that allows you to influence and affect multiple organisations, industries and businesses.

Quotable Quotes

“Like many people I guess I see myself as being quite tragic in the area of networking. I really have to push myself to go to certain functions or networking functions that I know will bring me into a circle of people that are not people I've met before” – Jackie McArthur

“I don't have a network because I don't network, as it turns out I have a strong group of individuals at various stages of their career that I can rely on and call on and trust to give great advice”

 – Jackie McArthur

 “The only constant in life is change” – Jackie McArthur

Important Resources and Links 

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://www.aicd.com.au.

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.

 Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.

If you’re interested in connecting with Jackie or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackie-mcarthur-2846509/.

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Sally Evans FAICD is on the boards of ASX200 Healthcare provider Healius, New Zealand retirement village operator Oceania Healthcare and chair of social enterprise LifeCircle Australia. In 2018, she was one of the Australian Financial Review's 100 Women of Influence.

Here Sally talks about how she got started in her director career, what she would have done differently and her advice for those looking to step up to the boardroom.

Valuable Discussion Points 

[01:26] Why did Sally decide to become a non-executive director (NED)?

Transitioning from a director of an aged care facility to a non-executive on a multitude of different boards, Sally wanted to be on the side that made decisions.  Already involved in aspects of Non-Executive Director processes, Sally was interested in organisational structure, culture and how this affected the movement of people and ideas within a business 

[03:41] In hindsight, what does Sally believe she could have done differently? 

Sally regrets not having a director mentor in her development phase, as they’re crucial in providing a reference for opportunities and honest feedback. She also wishes she got in front of more boards she really wanted to be a part of, and once she was, she was confident, prepared and clear in her approach and purpose.

[07:18] Difference between being a NED and a part of the management team?

Taking nearly a full year cycle of boardroom meetings developing relationships and skills, Sally adopted a mindset of always trying to ask the most important questions and allowing the management team to answer and discuss freely. 

[13:14] When is it the right time to make the transition to a board level position, such as a NED? 

Never a perfect time, Sally acknowledges she should of,  and could have, transitioned sooner. Building her expertise over her career she leveraged this along with a strong support and structure into a board level position. The process is tenuous, she admits, taking Sally just on two years, but recommends it as a necessary step for true leaders and directors. 

[18:46] What are some other key challenges Sally has faced?

Sally believes that one of the toughest challenges during this transition is recognising how self-disciplined you need to be. It truly a one-woman business, being a NED, you have no singular goal or task, rather you coordinate your workload based on the types and styles of boards you’re a part of.

[26:00] Is Sally noticing any changes in board diversity?

Sally believes that she left it far too long and aims to instill confidence in eager women and men that approach her about the transition into board level. She also appreciates the mentoring she received during her transition and seeks to provide individuals similar to herself, wisdom and advice regarding opportunities within boards.

Key Learnings 

• Governance comes from a curiosity to understand the processes and structure of an organisation and how each individual affects these processes.
• Get in front of the right people, because it’s not about who you know, it’s about who knows you.
• You only get one opportunity. So, be confident, prepared and clear about why you’re there. 
• Never ask anyone to put you on their board – make them need you on their board.
• Leave your ego at the door.
• As a NED, you need to know the right questions to ask, being a part of a management team, you need to know the right answers. 
• Don’t undermine the executive’s opinion, offer constructive guidance and input.
• Being a NED means you’re a business of one, you must be extremely self-disciplined and managed.
• Be an active listener.
• The most important person you’ll get to know is the chair/s of your board.

Quotable Quotes 

“It’s not about who you know, it’s who knows you” – Sally Evans

“I think I left it too late. I think I could have done this five years earlier than I actually did … I just didn’t feel quite confident enough. So, I would urge people to find those mentors, get that feedback and ask them to help them determine when the right time is to make that transition” – Sally Evans 

“When you’re a Non-Executive Director, you’re essentially a business of one” – Sally Evans

“As a director you have to listen, be curious, observe things and just keeping quiet long enough to really understand what management was saying. That was a skill I needed to learn” – Sally Evans 

Important Resources and Links 

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.com.au.

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.

If you’re interested in connecting with Sally or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/sally-l-evans/?originalSubdomain=au.

For more information regarding Sally Evans, please view her biography referenced on Healius, one of many companies/institutions she represents as a NED https://www.healius.com.au/about-us/our-board-members/ms-sally-evans/

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane. 

Board diversity and gender balance deliver better outcomes for shareholders, consumers, employees and the community. Join Catherine Fox, award-winning journalist, author and presenter, as she interviews women making an impact in the boardroom that inspires action. This latest AICD podcast, powered by CommBank’s Women in Focus, aims to help shift the balance. 

First episode released 12 November. Let’s level up together.