Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times.
With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.
New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief & follow the show @ItsOKPod
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Protecting Your Mental Health in the Healthcare Workplace, with the Burned Out Burnout Expert, Dr. Jessi Gold
Saison 3 · Épisode 64
lundi 1 juillet 2024 • Durée 37:29
We know that healthcare workers are burned out and exhausted. Provider mental health is a huge issue… but are the institutions listening?
This week on It’s OK, burnout expert Dr. Jessi Gold talks to us about (obviously) burnout, but also ways HCW* can start to change the workplace culture into one that actually values the human workforce. Sound unlikely? Listen in for Dr. Gold’s ideas for a grassroots movement - using the language of capitalism to get the c-suite to listen.
*We talk a bunch about HCW in this episode, but the topics involved are relevant to everyone who feels even a little bit exhausted by the pressures of the world.
Can you be emotionless and still practice good medicine?
How medical training seeks out perfectionists, and then uses that perfectionism as a way to wring out even more work
Why you can’t self-care your way out of burnout, but you can support yourself inside the catastrophe
Ways to get the administration to start valuing their workforce (spoiler: it involves speaking the language of capitalism!)
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Dr. Jessi Gold is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Washington University School of Medicine in St Louis. She’s a nationally recognized expert on healthcare worker mental health and burnout (particularly during the pandemic). Her work can be found in major publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and TIME. Find the “burned out burnout expert” at drjessigold.com and on social media @drjessigold
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Over and Over Again: Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the Power of Storytelling
Saison 3 · Épisode 63
lundi 24 juin 2024 • Durée 39:19
The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want.
PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope.
In this episode we cover:
- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream
- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone
- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing.
- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring.
- Connecting through the power of storytelling
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Aubrey Hirsch is the author of Why We Never Talk About Sugar, a collection of short stories, and , a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like , , ,, , and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, . Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. .
Live Each Day Like It’s Your First: with Alua Arthur
Saison 3 · Épisode 54
lundi 22 avril 2024 • Durée 38:21
What would a meaningful life look like for you?
According to Death Doula Alua Arthur, conversations about death can be the most enriching conversations we have.
It’s not about accepting death, or avoiding grief - it’s about building a relationship with yourself and others that doesn’t hold anything back. Why should you listen? Yeah, because you’re mortal and one day you'll die, but more importantly: because one day, hopefully in the far off future, you’ll look back at this life you’ve lived. Conversations about death can make that life so much better.
Does being honest about death give you access to joy?
Should you tell someone that they’re dying, or does that remove hope?
Why living each day like it’s your last is unrealistic (and what to do instead)
The linking of death and grief: Death and grief are married, but grief definitely dates around.
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Over and Over Again: Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the Power of Storytelling
Saison 2 · Épisode 7
lundi 3 octobre 2022 • Durée 39:20
“Getting people to feel angry with me makes me feel less alone, less helpless. (It) makes me feel like, okay, there’s a whole team of us. We're all gonna do it.” - Writer and illustrator, Aubrey Hirsch
The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want.
PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope.
In this episode we cover:
The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream
Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone
Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing.
Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring.
Connecting through the power of storytelling
Notable quotes:
“I feel very helpless and I don't wanna feel like that because I know that to be f*cked is a spectrum and we can be more f*cked than we are now or less f*cked. It's not a binary. I want us to move in the right direction (less f*cked), and I want to be a part of that movement - even if my action comes too late for some.” - Aubrey Hirsch
About our guest:
Aubrey Hirsch is the author of , a collection of short stories, and , a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME, The New York Times, , , and in the bestselling anthology. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read.
A Place Called Home: A Conversation with Child Welfare Advocate, David Ambroz
Saison 2 · Épisode 6
lundi 26 septembre 2022 • Durée 51:48
The scene is 1990’s New York City. Young David Ambroz and his two siblings are homeless, sleeping in bus shelters and bathing in public restrooms, under the care of his mentally ill mother. The child he was is still evident in the person he grew up to be: a nationally recognized expert on child welfare, and a staunch supporter of the foster care system. In this episode, we discuss both the horror and the joy of his childhood, landing on a vision of hope for the future that everyone (yes, you!) can help bring into fruition.
Sensitivity note: this episode explores the realities of being a homeless child, which includes brief examples of cruelty, and non-graphic mention of sexual assault.
In this episode we cover:
The terrifying, liberating power of putting your personal story out into the world for everyone to see
“Occasional angels” and how they helped young David survive the cruelty of his upbringing
The intersections of mental illness, homelessness, and poverty
Why homeless kids need to see themselves in books and movies
Beyond fostering: how anyone can take action to create the kind of world where kids are safe and loved and cared for
Notable quotes:
“It's all out there now. There's no taking it back. And it is the scariest, most beautiful, important thing I've ever done. It's the most self loving thing I could have done. In trying to help other people, I inherently helped myself.” - David Ambroz
“I want you to believe that you can do something. I'm here today because people did. And I want you to believe that you can create another David Ambroz. Together, we could create a system that produces only beautiful children that reach their full potential.” - David Ambroz
Stephanie Foo’s Antidote to Climate Anxiety: Bonus Episode
Saison 2 · Épisode 5
mardi 20 septembre 2022 • Durée 10:06
Our fears for the future of this planet are part of an interwoven story of grief and hope. While it’s easy to feel overwhelmed and defeated, author Stephanie Foo (What My Bones Know) has found one small consistent act that grounds her, and gives her a hope for the world: she volunteers with the urban parks system. If your climate anxiety has felt too big to tackle, don’t miss this short bonus episode - you might just find a doorway to your own place in the woods.
In this episode we cover:
The difference between “good immigrant” plants and “bad immigrant” plants, and how that relates to the climate emergency
How being a park steward has given Stephanie hope for the future AND a budding community (ok, pun intended)
What trees teach us about weathering trauma
Notable quotes:
“My action is relatively small, but I think it's really important. I kill plants.” - Stephanie Foo
About our guest:
Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. She lives in New York City with her husband, where she is a Parks Department Super Steward.
Complex PTSD and the Art of Survival with Author Stephanie Foo
Saison 2 · Épisode 4
lundi 19 septembre 2022 • Durée 43:25
If you’ve lived through horrific trauma or abuse, is it really fair of us to say that the ways you’ve learned to cope are “bad,” or to use clinical speak, “maladaptive”? This week on Here After, Stephanie Foo, author of What My Bones Know, joins me to talk about complex PTSD and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You’ll also hear how claiming your own messy, complex coping mechanisms can help you build a community that sees you and loves you.
If you’re haunted by any type of trauma, or know someone who is, this conversation is a great introduction to complex PTSD, and the work of survivorship.
In this episode we cover:
Why pretending to be a high-performing badass is maybe not in your best interest
How storytelling can make you feel less freakish and alone
The real problem with most books on trauma and C-PTSD
Notable quotes:
“People are like, oh, you're so brave to have shared your story. And I was like, I burned down my whole life. There was nothing to lose anymore, so there was nothing to be brave about.” - Stephanie Foo
About our guest:
Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. A noted speaker and instructor, she has taught at Columbia University and has spoken at venues from Sundance Film Festival to the Missouri Department of Mental Health. She lives in New York City with her husband.
Sometimes Loss Is Freedom: A Conversation with Rebecca Woolf
Saison 2 · Épisode 3
lundi 12 septembre 2022 • Durée 49:06
What if you were just about to get divorced, but your partner gets sick? Like really sick? Rebecca Woolf was just about to leave an unhappy marriage when her husband got sick and died. What followed was a crash course in performative grief, and the dismantling of one life in order to build the next. In this epsiode, we cover love, sex, marriage, divorce, grief, shame, assumptions (both internal and external), and personal agency - it’s QUITE the conversation. Sensitivity note: this episode contains the F word, and references sex.
In this episode we cover:
The conventions of marriage and grief that trap people in inauthentic versions of themselves
How you can love someone AND be relieved they’re dead
Why everyone has an opinion about how soon is too soon to date, have sex, or otherwise live your life after someone dies
Grieving the time you lost living someone else’s life
Building your own “house of hope,” according to your own desires
Notable quotes:
About our guest:
Rebecca Woolf has worked as a writer since her teens - it’s the way she understands both herself and the world. Her essays have appeared on Refinery29, Huffington Post, Parenting and more. She currently authors the bi-weekly column Sex &the Single Mom on Romper.com. Her latest book, ALL OF THIS: a memoir of death and desire, hits the shelves this August, 2022.
Find her on IG @rebeccawooolf (with three o’s) and at Rebeccawoolf.com
Additional resources
It can be hard to find information about grieving the loss of a complicated relationship (an abusive parent, or an estranged partner, for example). .
Resilience, Resources, and Grieving In the Public Eye with Gun Violence Survivor and Advocate, Nelba Márquez-Greene
Saison 2 · Épisode 2
lundi 5 septembre 2022 • Durée 57:50
“I’m for survivors surviving.” - Nelba Márquez-Greene
Nelba Márquez-Greene is a marriage and family therapist, and she’s an advocate for survivors of tragedy. What her offical bio doesn’t say is that her child was murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary.
Each time there’s a new act of public gun violence, the media erupts with sound bites and headlines: survivors of past acts of violence tell us what the newest survivors are thinking and feeling. Not only do those interviews come at a cost, they don’t tell the whole story of what it’s like to live on after people you love have been killed by gunfire.
On this week’s show, Nelba and I discuss what it’s like to live such a public grief, and what it means to find joy - and hope - in an often violent world.
In this episode we cover:
Supporting each other: the difference between an “inside the house” friend and an “on the porch” friend.
Why no single form of advocacy for survivors is right for all survivors
What’s missing from our ideas about “resilience”
Where your money goes when you donate funds in the wake of a tragedy
The importance of telling your own story in the ways you want to tell it (no matter who demands a soundbite)
What to do when the next act of gun violence happens
“My son was eight when his sister was murdered. He has every reason to not hope. In this country, boys who look like him are murdered with impunity more often than we report. And my son still has hope. And that gives me great hope when I can't find it.” - Nelba Márquez-Greene
Welcome to the Awkward Party, Everyone: It’s Season Two, Episode One
Saison 2 · Épisode 1
lundi 29 août 2022 • Durée 15:16
There’s a lot going on lately - which is a massive understatement. In our personal lives and as a wider community - everything is a lot. It’s a really human thing to hope things will get better (even when you’re not sure how they possibly could). In this season of Here After, we’re going to find out if there’s any hope for us - like real, functional, tangible hope - in conversations with interesting people about difficult things.
In this episode we cover:
Why season two took so long to arrive
How to talk about the pain of the world without collapsing into despair or pretending everything is fine
“I want my hope back. And it has to be a real hope, not some airy, useless hope. It has to be functional. It has to be LOGICAL. It has to be real, and rooted in actual reality. I think we only get that kind of hope if we’re willing to tell the whole truth about how hard it is to be here sometimes.” - Megan Devine
About our guest:
Megan Devine is the host of Here After, and author of the best selling book, It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Her writings on re-humanizing grief can be found in publications such as Psychology Today, The New York Times, Harvard Business review, and The Washington Post. She serves as a grief expert for major media outlets including NPR, iHeartRadio, and the PBS documentary, Speaking Grief.
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW @aubreyhirsch for announcements.
Aubrey publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, The Audacity.
Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, aubreyhirsch.com
Alua Arthur is a Death Doula, recovering attorney, and the founder of Going with Grace, a Death Doula training and end-of-life planning organization that exists to support people as they answer the question, “What must I do to be at peace with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully?” She’s been featured in the LA Times, Vogue, Refinery29, The Doctors, and alongside Chris Hemsworth on the docuseries, Limitless. Find her at aluaarthur.com and on Instagram at @going_with_grace
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW @aubreyhirsch for announcements. She publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, The Audacity.
Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, https://aubreyhirsch.com
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
David Ambroz is a national poverty and child welfare expert and advocate. He was recognized by President Obama as an American Champion of Change. He currently serves as the Head of Community Engagement (West) for Amazon, coordinating with non-profits and community leaders for social good. Previously he led Corporate Social Responsibility for Walt Disney Television, and served as the President of the Los Angeles City Planning Commission, and as a California Child Welfare Councilmember. After growing up homeless and then in foster care, he graduated from Vassar and later from UCLA School of Law (J.D.). He is a foster dad and lives in Los Angeles, CA.
David is the author of the memoir A Place Called Home, a heart-wrenching yet inspiring story, depicting childhood poverty and homelessness as it is experienced by so many young people. It’s at once a gripping personal account of deprivation—how one boy survived it, and ultimately thrived—and a resounding call from the grown-up David, now a nationally recognized child welfare advocate, for us all to move from empathy to action.
Just talking about foster care can help foster care. Check out FosterMore, the foundation David co-founded with his sister, Jennifer Perry.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For a collection of tools and coping skills related to grief and trauma, check out my illustrated guided journal, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. (available in paperback and for Kindle)
For a deep dive into the environmental activism of the 90s and early 2000s, check out the work of Joanna Macy. A lot of our current understanding of the mental health of activists comes from Macy’s work.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Share the show on your social networks! Use #HereAfterPod so we can find you.
For a collection of tools and coping skills related to grief and trauma, check out my illustrated guided journal, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. (available in paperback and for Kindle)
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Share the show on your social networks! Use #HereAfterPod so we can find you.
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Talking about difficult things gets easier with practice, and that’s why we’re here. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
“What’s the aim of a media outlet, or a news outlet, when they tell a specific (often traumatic) story? Like, yes, they want clicks & advertising, but they need emotional impact to get those clicks. Do you know what has emotional impact? The f*cking truth.” - Megan Devine
About our guest: Nelba Márquez-Greene is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist specializing in grief, loss, trauma and their impact on individuals and systems.She founded the CTAMFT (Connecticut Association for Marriage and Family Therapy) Diversity Committee and served on the CTAMFT Board of Directors.
In 2018, she was profiled as one of “100 Women of Color” and a YWCA (CT) Women’s Leadership Award recipient. She was featured in People Magazine’s October 2019 issue as one of Ten Women Changing the World and also recognized by Chelsea Clinton and Hillary Clinton in their Book of Gutsy Women.
Nelba has testified and advocated at the state and federal levels on many different mental health initiatives, hosted TEDx talks, and is a nationally sought after speaker. In the many years that have followed, stints in advocacy, public policy, community care, etc. have affirmed her core belief that in order to change the world we must take care of people. First - that grief, trauma and loss must be allowed in the room. Second - that tools, language, skills, resources and acceptance should be available to live a full, grieving life.
There are many organizations fighting to end gun violence. Here are just a few:
Moms Demand Action, Change the Ref, and Brady United. As Nelba suggested, if you want to support survivors of gun violence, find ways to support survivors in underserved communities, especially if their tragedy didn’t make the national news.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
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