We know that healthcare workers are burned out and exhausted. Provider mental health is a huge issue… but are the institutions listening? 

This week on It’s OK, burnout expert Dr. Jessi Gold talks to us about (obviously) burnout, but also ways HCW* can start to change the workplace culture into one that actually values the human workforce. Sound unlikely? Listen in for Dr. Gold’s ideas for a grassroots movement - using the language of capitalism to get the c-suite to listen.

*We talk a bunch about HCW in this episode, but the topics involved are relevant to everyone who feels even a little bit exhausted by the pressures of the world. 

Dr. Gold’s new book, How Do You Feel?: One Doctor's Search for Humanity in Medicine, is out on October 8, 2024. For more info visit drjessigold.com

In this episode we cover:

• Can you be emotionless and still practice good medicine?
• How medical training seeks out perfectionists, and then uses that perfectionism as a way to wring out even more work 
• Why you can’t self-care your way out of burnout, but you can support yourself inside the catastrophe
• Ways to get the administration to start valuing their workforce (spoiler: it involves speaking the language of capitalism!) 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

About our guest:

Dr. Jessi Gold is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Washington University School of Medicine in St Louis. She’s a nationally recognized expert on healthcare worker mental health and burnout (particularly during the pandemic). Her work can be found in major publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and TIME. Find the “burned out burnout expert” at drjessigold.com and on social media @drjessigold

Pre-order Dr. Gold’s book - How Do You Feel?: One Doctor's Search for Humanity in Medicine

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

Additional Resources:

Physician Support Line on social @shrink.rapping

American Foundation for Suicide Prevention on social @afspnational

Clinician Well-Being Knowledge Hub developed by @theNAMedicine 

The Emotional PPE Project

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want. 

PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope. 

In this episode we cover: 

- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream

- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone

- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing. 

- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring. 

- Connecting through the power of storytelling

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

About our guest:

Aubrey Hirsch is the author of Why We Never Talk About Sugar, a collection of short stories, and This Will Be His Legacy, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME, The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, Not That Bad. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. Find it here.

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

Additional Resources:

Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW @aubreyhirsch for announcements. 

Aubrey publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, The Audacity. 

Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, aubreyhirsch.com

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What would a meaningful life look like for you?

According to Death Doula Alua Arthur, conversations about death can be the most enriching conversations we have. 

It’s not about accepting death, or avoiding grief - it’s about building a relationship with yourself and others that doesn’t hold anything back. Why should you listen? Yeah, because you’re mortal and one day you'll die, but more importantly: because one day, hopefully in the far off future, you’ll look back at this life you’ve lived. Conversations about death can make that life so much better. 

Alua’s new book is Briefly Perfectly Human: Making an Authentic Life by Getting Real about the End. For more info visit aluaarthur.com

In this episode we cover: 

• What’s a Death Doula? 
• Does being honest about death give you access to joy?
• Should you tell someone that they’re dying, or does that remove hope? 
• Why living each day like it’s your last is unrealistic (and what to do instead) 
• The linking of death and grief: Death and grief are married, but grief definitely dates around. 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

Related episodes:

Trauma Surgeon Dr. Red Hoffman on the surprisingly broad umbrella of palliative care

The co-founders of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care on supporting burnout & stress among healthcare professionals & caregivers

About our guest:

Alua Arthur is a Death Doula, recovering attorney, and the founder of Going with Grace, a Death Doula training and end-of-life planning organization that exists to support people as they answer the question, “What must I do to be at peace with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully?” She’s been featured in the LA Times, Vogue, Refinery29, The Doctors, and alongside Chris Hemsworth on the docuseries, Limitless. Find her at aluaarthur.com and on Instagram at @going_with_grace 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

Additional Resources:

Read Alua’s new book - Briefly Perfectly Human

Going with Grace

Megan mentions this book -  Pronoia Is the Antidote for Paranoia

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“Getting people to feel angry with me makes me feel less alone, less helpless. (It) makes me feel like, okay, there’s a whole team of us. We're all gonna do it.” - Writer and illustrator, Aubrey Hirsch 

The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want. 

PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope. 

In this episode we cover: 

• The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream
• Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone
• Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing. 
• Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring. 
• Connecting through the power of storytelling

Notable quotes: 

“I feel very helpless and I don't wanna feel like that because I know that to be f*cked is a spectrum and we can be more f*cked than we are now or less f*cked. It's not a binary. I want us to move in the right direction (less f*cked),  and I want to be a part of that movement - even if my action comes too late for some.” - Aubrey Hirsch

About our guest:

Aubrey Hirsch is the author of Why We Never Talk About Sugar, a collection of short stories, and This Will Be His Legacy, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME, The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, Not That Bad. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. Find it here. 

Additional resources

Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW @aubreyhirsch for announcements. She publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, The Audacity. 

Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, https://aubreyhirsch.com

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The scene is 1990’s New York City. Young David Ambroz and his two siblings are homeless, sleeping in bus shelters and bathing in public restrooms, under the care of his mentally ill mother. The child he was is still evident in the person he grew up to be: a nationally recognized expert on child welfare, and a staunch supporter of the foster care system. In this episode, we discuss both the horror and the joy of his childhood, landing on a vision of hope for the future that everyone (yes, you!) can help bring into fruition. 

Sensitivity note: this episode explores the realities of being a homeless child, which includes brief examples of cruelty, and non-graphic mention of sexual assault. 

In this episode we cover: 

• The terrifying, liberating power of putting your personal story out into the world for everyone to see
• “Occasional angels” and how they helped young David survive the cruelty of his upbringing
• The intersections of mental illness, homelessness, and poverty 
• Why homeless kids need to see themselves in books and movies 
• Beyond fostering: how anyone can take action to create the kind of world where kids are safe and loved and cared for

Notable quotes: 

“It's all out there now. There's no taking it back. And it is the scariest, most beautiful, important thing I've ever done. It's the most self loving thing I could have done. In trying to help other people, I inherently helped myself.” - David Ambroz

“I want you to believe that you can do something. I'm here today because people did. And I want you to believe that you can create another David Ambroz. Together, we could create a system that produces only beautiful children that reach their full potential.” - David Ambroz

About our guest:

David Ambroz is a national poverty and child welfare expert and advocate. He was recognized by President Obama as an American Champion of Change. He currently serves as the Head of Community Engagement (West) for Amazon, coordinating with non-profits and community leaders for social good. Previously he led Corporate Social Responsibility for Walt Disney Television, and served as the President of the Los Angeles City Planning Commission, and as a California Child Welfare Councilmember. After growing up homeless and then in foster care, he graduated from Vassar and later from UCLA School of Law (J.D.). He is a foster dad and lives in Los Angeles, CA.

David is the author of the memoir A Place Called Home, a heart-wrenching yet inspiring story, depicting childhood poverty and homelessness as it is experienced by so many young people. It’s at once a gripping personal account of deprivation—how one boy survived it, and ultimately thrived—and a resounding call from the grown-up David, now a nationally recognized child welfare advocate, for us all to move from empathy to action.

Follow David Ambroz on Twitter @DaveAmbroz, on Instagram @hjdambroz, and on LinkedIn

Additional resources

Just talking about foster care can help foster care. Check out FosterMore, the foundation David co-founded with his sister, Jennifer Perry. 

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod

Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and resources, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Our fears for the future of this planet are part of an interwoven story of grief and hope. While it’s easy to feel overwhelmed and defeated, author Stephanie Foo (What My Bones Know) has found one small consistent act that grounds her, and gives her a hope for the world: she volunteers with the urban parks system. If your climate anxiety has felt too big to tackle, don’t miss this short bonus episode - you might just find a doorway to your own place in the woods. 

In this episode we cover: 

• The difference between “good immigrant” plants and “bad immigrant” plants, and how that relates to the climate emergency
• How being a park steward has given Stephanie hope for the future AND a budding community (ok, pun intended)
• What trees teach us about weathering trauma

Notable quotes: 

“My action is relatively small, but I think it's really important. I kill plants.” - Stephanie Foo

About our guest: 

Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. She lives in New York City with her husband, where she is a Parks Department Super Steward.

Read Stephanie’s book, What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma

Follow her on Instagram @foofoofoo and Twitter @imontheradio 

Find a great conversation about What My Bones Know on Maria Shriver’s Sunday Paper at this link 

Additional resources

It’s OK That You’re Not OK: Meeting Grief and Loss in a Culture That Doesn’t Understand is a book for grieving people, those who love them, and all those seeking to love themselves—and each other—better. (available in paperback, e-book, & audiobook)

For a collection of tools and coping skills related to grief and trauma, check out my illustrated guided journal, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. (available in paperback and for Kindle)

For a deep dive into the environmental activism of the 90s and early 2000s, check out the work of Joanna Macy. A lot of our current understanding of the mental health of activists comes from Macy’s work. 

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

Share the show on your social networks! Use #HereAfterPod so we can find you. 

Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod

Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and resources, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If you’ve lived through horrific trauma or abuse, is it really fair of us to say that the ways you’ve learned to cope are “bad,” or to use clinical speak, “maladaptive”? This week on Here After, Stephanie Foo, author of What My Bones Know, joins me to talk about complex PTSD and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You’ll also hear how claiming your own messy, complex coping mechanisms can help you build a community that sees you and loves you. 

If you’re haunted by any type of trauma, or know someone who is, this conversation is a great introduction to complex PTSD, and the work of survivorship. 

In this episode we cover: 

• Why pretending to be a high-performing badass is maybe not in your best interest
• How storytelling can make you feel less freakish and alone
• The real problem with most books on trauma and C-PTSD

Notable quotes: 

“People are like, oh, you're so brave to have shared your story. And I was like, I burned down my whole life. There was nothing to lose anymore, so there was nothing to be brave about.” - Stephanie Foo

About our guest: 

Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. A noted speaker and instructor, she has taught at Columbia University and has spoken at venues from Sundance Film Festival to the Missouri Department of Mental Health. She lives in New York City with her husband.

Read Stephanie’s book, What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma

Find her at stephaniefoo.me and follow her on Instagram @foofoofoo and Twitter @imontheradio 

Find a great conversation about What My Bones Know on Maria Shriver’s Sunday Paper at this link 

Additional resources

It’s OK That You’re Not OK: Meeting Grief and Loss in a Culture That Doesn’t Understand is a book for grieving people, those who love them, and all those seeking to love themselves—and each other—better. (available in paperback, e-book, & audiobook)

For a collection of tools and coping skills related to grief and trauma, check out my illustrated guided journal, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. (available in paperback and for Kindle)

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

Share the show on your social networks! Use #HereAfterPod so we can find you. 

Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod

Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and resources, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What if you were just about to get divorced, but your partner gets sick? Like really sick? Rebecca Woolf was just about to leave an unhappy marriage when her husband got sick and died. What followed was a crash course in performative grief, and the dismantling of one life in order to build the next. In this epsiode, we cover love, sex, marriage, divorce, grief, shame, assumptions (both internal and external), and personal agency - it’s QUITE the conversation. Sensitivity note: this episode contains the F word, and references sex. 

In this episode we cover: 

• The conventions of marriage and grief that trap people in inauthentic versions of themselves
• How you can love someone AND be relieved they’re dead
• Why everyone has an opinion about how soon is too soon to date, have sex, or otherwise live your life after someone dies
• Grieving the time you lost living someone else’s life
• Building your own “house of hope,” according to your own desires

Notable quotes: 

About our guest:

Rebecca Woolf has worked as a writer since her teens - it’s the way she understands both herself and the world. Her essays have appeared on Refinery29, Huffington Post, Parenting and more. She currently authors the bi-weekly column Sex &the Single Mom on Romper.com. Her latest book, ALL OF THIS: a memoir of death and desire, hits the shelves this August, 2022. 

Find her on IG @rebeccawooolf (with three o’s) and at Rebeccawoolf.com

Additional resources

It can be hard to find information about grieving the loss of a complicated relationship (an abusive parent, or an estranged partner, for example). Check out this post on grieving people you didn’t always like. 

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Talking about difficult things gets easier with practice, and that’s why we’re here. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod

Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“I’m for survivors surviving.” - Nelba Márquez-Greene

Nelba Márquez-Greene is a marriage and family therapist, and she’s an advocate for survivors of tragedy. What her offical bio doesn’t say is that her child was murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary. 

Each time there’s a new act of public gun violence, the media erupts with sound bites and headlines: survivors of past acts of violence tell us what the newest survivors are thinking and feeling. Not only do those interviews come at a cost, they don’t tell the whole story of what it’s like to live on after people you love have been killed by gunfire.

On this week’s show, Nelba and I discuss what it’s like to live such a public grief, and what it means to find joy - and hope - in an often violent world. 

In this episode we cover: 

• Supporting each other: the difference between an “inside the house” friend and an “on the porch” friend. 
• Why no single form of advocacy for survivors is right for all survivors 
• What’s missing from our ideas about “resilience”
• Where your money goes when you donate funds in the wake of a tragedy
• The importance of telling your own story in the ways you want to tell it (no matter who demands a soundbite) 
• What to do when the next act of gun violence happens

Click here for the episode webpage

Notable quotes: 

• “My son was eight when his sister was murdered. He has every reason to not hope. In this country, boys who look like him are murdered with impunity more often than we report. And my son still has hope. And that gives me great hope when I can't find it.” - Nelba Márquez-Greene

• “What’s the aim of a media outlet, or a news outlet, when they tell a specific (often traumatic) story? Like, yes, they want clicks & advertising, but they need emotional impact to get those clicks. Do you know what has emotional impact? The f*cking truth.” - Megan Devine

About our guest: Nelba Márquez-Greene is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist specializing in grief, loss, trauma and their impact on individuals and systems.She founded the CTAMFT (Connecticut Association for Marriage and Family Therapy) Diversity Committee and served on the CTAMFT Board of Directors.

In 2018, she was profiled as one of “100 Women of Color” and a YWCA (CT) Women’s Leadership Award recipient. She was featured in People Magazine’s October 2019 issue as one of Ten Women Changing the World and also recognized by Chelsea Clinton and Hillary Clinton in their Book of Gutsy Women.

Nelba has testified and advocated at the state and federal levels on many different mental health initiatives, hosted TEDx talks, and is a nationally sought after speaker. In the many years that have followed, stints in advocacy, public policy, community care, etc. have affirmed her core belief that in order to change the world we must take care of people. First - that grief, trauma and loss must be allowed in the room. Second - that tools, language, skills, resources and acceptance should be available to live a full, grieving life. 

Find her at thisgrievinglife.com

Follow her on Instagram and Facebook @anagraceproject 

Follow her on Twitter at @Nelba_MG and @anagraceproject 

Additional resources

There are many organizations fighting to end gun violence. Here are just a few: 

Moms Demand Action, Change the Ref, and Brady United.  As Nelba suggested, if you want to support survivors of gun violence, find ways to support survivors in underserved communities, especially if their tragedy didn’t make the national news. 

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod

Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

There’s a lot going on lately - which is a massive understatement. In our personal lives and as a wider community - everything is a lot. It’s a really human thing to hope things will get better (even when you’re not sure how they possibly could). In this season of Here After, we’re going to find out if there’s any hope for us - like real, functional, tangible hope -  in conversations with interesting people about difficult things.

In this episode we cover: 

• Why season two took so long to arrive
• How to talk about the pain of the world without collapsing into despair or pretending everything is fine
• Real world hope versus “vending machine” hope
• What to expect in the season ahead

Click here for the episode webpage

Notable quotes: 

 “I want my hope back. And it has to be a real hope, not some airy, useless hope. It has to be functional. It has to be LOGICAL. It has to be real, and rooted in actual reality. I think we only get that kind of hope if we’re willing to tell the whole truth about how hard it is to be here sometimes.” - Megan Devine

About our guest:

Megan Devine is the host of Here After, and author of the best selling book, It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Her writings on re-humanizing grief can be found in publications such as Psychology Today, The New York Times, Harvard Business review, and The Washington Post. She serves as a grief expert for major media outlets including NPR, iHeartRadio, and the PBS documentary, Speaking Grief.  

Additional resources

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod

Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Season two begins Monday August 29th, with all new shows and amazing guests. Follow now so you don’t miss an episode!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Wait, isn't palliative care something hospice does before somebody dies? Well, yes, but that’s just part of the story: palliative care covers a whole lot of health conditions, even temporary medical health setbacks. Palliative care is like symptom relief for the emotional challenges of being alive. Doesn't that sound really interesting? Find out what it is, and why it applies to YOU in this week’s episode. 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover: 

• What is palliative care and why should *anyone* outside of hospice care?
• Getting your colleagues to care about the emotional pain of their patients
• Dr. Red’s love letter / shout-out to nurses 
• Why a skilled surgeon also needs to be a compassionate human being
• How to keep your personal losses out of your workplace (sort of)
• Why Megan hopes you’ll start seeing the whole world through a palliative care lens

Notable quotes: 

“There’s no way I could have come back to this job without being under the care of an amazing trauma informed therapist. You have to do your work or there's no way you're going to avoid bringing all of your stuff back to the job. My partner's death definitely informs who I am personally and professionally, but it cannot be all about me in the room.” - Dr. Red Hoffman on the personal/professional gray area

About our guest:

Dr. Red Hoffman is a board certified trauma surgeon trained in surgical care and hospice and palliative medicine. She's one of the leading voices advocating for palliative medicine across all departments and subspecialties in medicine. Follow her on Twitter @RedMDND

Questions to Carry with you:

Where are your palliative care people? Go on an expedition to find out more!

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode Amy Brown did with Lesly Simon! We hope you enjoy it!

Amy’s guest today is a dear friend from the music business: Lesly Simon! We are so thankful to have Lesly on sharing her breast cancer journey and the motto she adopted for herself the day her world changed: "This is a wonderful day. I've never seen this one before." - Maya Angelou 

Lesly also spoke candidly about what it's like working for Garth Brooks & Trisha Yearwood and ended the chat doing '4 Things Gratitude' with Amy. We love Lesly's spirit and we hope by listening to her story it will: encourage us all to be proactive with our health, do self-exams, and life to the fullest each day. 

Visit BobbyBones.com to see the LIMITED EDITION #PIMPINJOY line to help build a hero a home, or you can go to TheShopForward.com/pimpinjoy! 

Best places to find more about Amy: RadioAmy.com + @RadioAmy

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry? 

In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want?

All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly. 

In this two-part episode we cover: 

• What is the right amount of anger?
• Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful 
• What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??) 
• Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
• How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
• Finding your best community by embracing your anger

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

About our guest:

Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in TIME, The Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

Additional Resources:

We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com

To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK.

If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode from The Truthiest Life, hosted by Lisa Hayim! We hope you enjoy it!

Lisa sits down with @kait.hurley, founder of  Move + Meditate, the app that fuses together movement with stillness.

They discuss:

• Kait’s intimate story of grief + the effect on her physical + emotional  body 
• Collective Grief: the power of knowing others have been through what you have 
• Finding “micro-moments” of stillness 
• Why it’s okay to run from yourself for a period of time
• The Inner Critic: why we’re approaching it the wrong way 

Move + Meditate: Try the free 14 day trial here (https://moveandmeditate.com/) 

Sign up for weekly podcast emails! www.truthiestlife.com/emailme

Instagram: @kait.hurley

The Truthiest Life on Instagram: @thetruthiestlife

Host: @Lisahayim

To support TTL, subscribe, follow, or share episodes with family and friends who could benefit!

If you’re loving TTL, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-truthiest-life/id1535516122?uo=2

Guest submissions, please fill out this form: https://thewellnecessities.typeform.com/to/pODTLasN

Edited by Houston Tilley

Intro jingle by Alyssa Chase aka @findyoursails 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode Kat Defatta did all about addiction! We hope you enjoy it!

This week Kat dives into what makes someone an "addict" & it's probably not what you think. If you are someone who has struggled with or is close to someone who has struggled with addiction this is going to be an important conversation to listen to. Warning: Some stuff may come up when listening to this so please make sure you are in a place where you feel safe before diving in.

Follow Kat on Instagram: @Kat.Defatta

Follow the podcast Instagram: @YouNeedTherapyPodcast

Have a question, concern, guest idea, something else? Reach Kat at: Kathryn@youneedtherapyodcast.com

Heard about Three Cords Therapy but don’t know what it is? Click here!

Produced by: @HoustonTilley

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode Kat Defatta did with Amy Brown! We hope you enjoy it!

FINALLY! Amy Brown (@radioamy) joins Kat (@kat.defatta) for the first time on You Need Therapy! You may know Amy as the cohost of The Bobby Bones Show, creator of Pimpin' Joy, host of 4 Things with Amy Brown, or cohost of Outweigh- Kat knows Amy as one of the most genuine humans around. Together, Kat and Amy talk about what grief is and how it has shown up in thier own lives. They talk about anticipatory grief, comparative grief, the stages of grief, and finding meaning in their grief. They kind of cover it all. Grief is something that every human being will experience more than one time during their lives, yet it is also something many of us avoid. Join in on this conversation to hear some honesty about what it's like to get honest and present with it.

Follow Kat on Instagram: @Kat.Defatta

Follow the podcast Instagram: @YouNeedTherapyPodcast

Have a question, concern, guest idea, something else? Reach Kat at: Kathryn@youneedtherapyodcast.com

Heard about Three Cords Therapy but don’t know what it is? Click here!

Produced by: @HoustonTilley

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode Amy Brown did with singer/song-writer Walker Hayes and his wife, Laney! We hope you enjoy it!

Singer/song-writer, Walker Hayes (who wrote our theme song! + the #PIMPINJOY song 'Joy Like Judy') and his wife Laney join Amy for all 4 things this episode. You might laugh. You might cry. The parents of 6 kids let us in on a lot and we are so thankful that they took the time to share it all. FIRST THING: Amy is obsessed with Walker's song “Don’t Let Her”, which was written about Laney. Every girl would love for a guy to write her a song like this. Its genius. Sorta sad. But genius. And very sweet. A must listen!!! SECOND THING: Blessing others is fun. Walker & Laney have been on the receiving end, but now they are on the giving ned. They are paying it forward with their "Be a Craig Fund" that was inspired by their friend (named Craig) that blessed them with a van for their big family at a time when they were financially strapped and they didn't have a car with enough seatbelts for everyone. "Be a Craig Fund" now allows them to pass the blessing of a new car on to other people that need a little help. THIRD THING: Walker & Laney open up about the heartbreaking journey of losing their daughter Oakleigh during birth. They share about how they are getting through the grief process in hopes that it can be helpful to others who may be going through something similar. FOURTH THING: “Life ain’t always pretty, but hey its pretty beautiful thing!” Through the good and the bad...Walker & Laney practice gratitude...so they each share 4 things they are thankful for.

Be sure to check out WalkerHayes.com for his music, more information on the Be A Craig Fund, as well as the awesome merch mentioned in this episode. 

Best places to find more about Amy: RadioAmy.com + @RadioAmy

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode Amy Brown did with Kimberly Schlapman from the band Little Big Town. We hope you enjoy it!

This week Amy has Kimberly Schlapman (@ohgussie) from Little Big Town on for all 4 Things! FIRST THING: This year has been pretty hard, so Amy and Kimberly talk about grief...offering hope to those in the thick of it...that you can make it to the other side. Kimberly understands grief...as she suddenly lost her first husband and had fertility struggles for years. SECOND THING: Kimberly shared what wellness is for her...mind, body, and spirit. THIRD THING: We all have our go to comfort food or recipe. Kimberly talks about the cookies she made Amy, and her favorite meal that she makes for the ones she loves! You can find Kimberly’s recipe on Amy’s blog at RadioAmy.com! FOURTH THING: Kimberly tells us 4 Things she’s grateful for...when guests practice gratitude either us...it’s always a great way to get to know them better!

Best places to find more about Amy: RadioAmy.com + @RadioAmy

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including another episode Amy Brown did with Megan. We hope you enjoy it!

Best-selling author & psychotherapist, Megan Devine, is back on to discuss grief during the holidays with Amy. We are so thankful for Megan’s wisdom and couldn’t be more excited about her podcast being an awesome resource for all people…but especially doctors, nurses, therapists and other helpers as they try to figure out how to show up - for themselves, and for others.

Best places to find more about Amy: RadioAmy.com + @RadioAmy

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including the episode Amy Brown did with Megan. We hope you enjoy it!

Grief counselor, psychotherapist, writer, grief advocate & communication expert, Megan Devine {@refugeingrief}, is on for all 4 things today! Megan is dedicated to helping people live through things they never thought they’d have to face. In 2009, she watched her partner, Matt, drown. FIRST THING: Megan shares her experience with grief and how it changed her life & relationships with others! Megan wants people to know it’s okay that you’re not okay and how to best meet grief & loss in a society that doesn’t understand. SECOND THING: Journaling through grief with Megan’s latest book: “How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.” THIRD THING: Megan debunks the culturally prescribed goal of returning to a normal, “happy” life, replacing it with a far healthier middle path, one that invites us to build a life alongside grief rather than seeking to overcome it. FOURTH THING: Megan shares with us 4 things she is grateful for. She also shared with us that gratitude is a companion to grief...not something you can do to get rid of any grief.

Link to “It’s Okay That You’re Not Okay: Meeting Grief and Loss in a Society that Doesn’t Understand”:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1622039076?ref=exp_radioamy_dp_vv_d 

Link to “How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed” (new grief journal):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1683643704?ref=exp_radioamy_dp_vv_d

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You know what makes the scary stuff easier to talk about? Making it fun. This week, my fellow “fun and scary” psychotherapist, Kat DeFatta, joins us to talk about body image, disordered eating, and how to help a friend facing a tough diagnosis. Sounds scary, but we had a lot of fun making this show. Come listen. 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• Why brand new psychotherapist Kat DeFatta said she’d “never work with grief” (spoiler: she knows better now) 
• How to support a friend going through a health crisis when you’re concerned about potential disordered eating
• How much exercise is “too much exercise” when you’re dealing with a tough life experience
• Why grief is always in the room, no matter what your clients or patients present with

Notable quote: 

“The question here isn't, "Why the addiction?" It's, "Where is some unmet need causing you pain?" The question isn't, "Why do you have a negative body image?" The question is, "Where are you hurting?" - Kat DeFatta 

Guest Bio:

Psychotherapist Kathryn DeFatta is the host of the You Need Therapy Podcast, where she brings the kind of rare, meaningful conversations of the therapy office out into the world. Find her at www.YouNeedTherapyPodcast.com

Questions to Carry with you:

• Making conversation with your body: how exactly do we do that? 

Resources: 

Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now. 

Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops 

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Everybody knows the stages of grief. Even if you didn’t go to grad school, I bet you can rattle them off. Thing is - those stages don’t help anyone: not the pros trying to support patients or clients, not the person trying to survive an impossible situation. Tune in for the inside scoop on the stages of grief and what we should be doing instead, with a special shout-out to the tv shows getting grief right.  

In this episode we cover:

• where the stages of grief came from, and why their creator was Less Than Pleased with what happened next
• whether an “innocent” mention of the stages of grief really matters in a movie or tv show (shout out to netflix: HMU!) 
• what to do if your boss asks you to support your co-workers through a death in the company
• and much more, because I have a lot to say on these stages, apparently. 

Questions to Carry with you:

• rooting out the ways the stages of grief live in your head (it’s not as uncomfortable as it sounds!) 

Extra resources: I’ve written a lot about the stages of grief. Check out this article, this instagram post, and for more of my feelings about the Starling, click here. Be sure to pick up It’s OK that You’re Not OK wherever you get your books, too - there’s a lot about the stages in there (including the reasons why graduate programs still teach this outdated model). 

For more help navigating grief in the workplace, check out Alica Forneret, Lantern, and Grief Coach. I provide corporate consulting on grief related comms, too. Get in touch via megandevine.co  Disclosure: these aren’t paid placements - I’ve worked with all these folks and I super dig them. Go check them (and me!) out. 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What should you do if someone wants to be friends, but you’re not into it? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. This week, part two of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.

Notable quotes: 

Boundaries are essentially “need negotiation” between humans. - Megan

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• Starting over in a new place with new friends 
• Why we so often confuse boundaries with being mean or rude
• The power of social observation to gather data (Megan’s go-to move!) 
• Scripts for saying “no thank you” to a potential friendship when that feels both mean and necessary

Guest Bio:

Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. You might know her from her popular instagram channel, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at https://dralexandrasolomon.com. 

Questions to Carry with you:

Discovering your existing boundaries in disguise! Plus communicating one new boundary. You’ve got this. 

Resources: 

Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at https://dralexandrasolomon.com

Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now. 

Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops 

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry? 

In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want?

All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly. 

In this two-part episode we cover: 

• What is the right amount of anger?
• Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful 
• What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??) 
• Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
• How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
• Finding your best community by embracing your anger

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

About our guest:

Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in TIME, The Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

Additional Resources:

We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com

To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK.

If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do you do when someone cuts you out of their life? How do you back away slowly from someone you really don’t want to be around? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. This week, part one of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• Why relational self-awareness is the key to all good relationships
• Can step-parents and adult step-kids get along after a loss in the family? 
• Why relationships based on conscious choice are so important
• How to negotiate the relationship you want when the other people maybe don’t want you around
• The difference between “letting go of outcome” and setting yourself up for success

Guest Bio:

Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. You might know her from her popular instagram channel, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at https://dralexandrasolomon.com. 

Questions to Carry with you:

• Check back next week for part two of this special episode on boundaries to get your Questions to Carry With You

Resources: 

Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at https://dralexandrasolomon.com

Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now. 

Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops 

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It’s no secret that healthcare professionals and caregivers of all kinds are stretched beyond their limits. We can’t look to healthcare systems themselves to give us the care and attention we need, so where CAN we go for support (and answers)? Don’t miss this week’s episode with guests Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• why it’s important to look beyond the identified patient to the invisible web of caregivers
• the realities of caregiver burnout and stress
• the one practice you can do even - and especially - when you have no time to care for yourself
• do you stay or do you go? Making decisions for yourself inside this healthcare system catastrophe

Guest info and resources:

Sensei Chodo Robert Campbell is co-founder of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care — a non-profit organization that focuses on the teaching of Zen and Buddhist practice with the goal to make them more accessible to people all around the world. His passion lies in bereavement counseling and advocating for change in the way our healthcare institutions work with the dying. Find Chodo and the NYZC @newyorkzencenter on IG, and online at zencare.org

Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, Jungian psychotherapist, and Certified Chaplaincy Educator. Koshin is a world-renowned thought leader in contemplative care. He is the author of Wholehearted: Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up and the co-editor of Awake at the Bedside: Contemplative Teachings on Palliative and End of Life Care. His work has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, CBS Sunday Morning, Tricycle among other publications. Find him on IG @koshinpaleyellison

If you work in healthcare, I very strongly recommend you check out New York Zen Center’s Contemplative Medicine Fellowship. Registrations for the 2022-2023 fellowship are open now.  

To hear one of my favorite passages of all time, read by Chodo Robert Campbell, check out the first video at this link. The whole video is a lovely teaching from the founders of the Zen Center for Contemplative Care. 

All of the Zen Center’s offerings, from books to support groups to ongoing educational opportunities can be found at zencare.org. 

Questions to Carry with you:

• special bonus questions and meditations from our guests! I’ll be back next week with my own QtCWY, but don’t miss this edition!

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You ever feel like there’s not enough love and support to go around? Like, there’s a severe shortage of compassion in the world, both for you and well, everyone? Me too, friends. This episode is basically my TED talk, if I had one, on how we create that support-filled world we all want (and deserve). It’s my personal favorite episode of season one. 

In this episode we cover:

• Why comparing divorce to death, or pet loss to child loss, is a Very. Bad. Idea. (usually)
• Is it ok to be sad about a musician or actor’s death, even if you never met them? 
• How to treat compassion like an abundant resource AND have good boundaries all at the same 
• The path to the love-filled, support-rich world we all want (it’s not easy, but it’s worth it) 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

Notable quote: 

“It sounds pretty woo but compassion really is an expandable resource. Practicing inclusion and validation means people feel heard, and heard people hear people, which means the whole culture starts to change from one of vindictive “how dare you feel that way!” to at worst, a neutral, impartial kindness, and at best - well, being generous like this creates a world built and sustained by love.” - Megan Devine

Questions to Carry with you:

• Fun ideas to help you seed love and compassion in the world, plus the one habit to break and re-make

Resources: 

Love in action! Check out this exceptionally non-extensive list of people to learn from as we grow the love filled world we all want:  Rachel Cargle, Alok Menon, Alice Wong, Free Mom Hugs, Farmer Veteran Coalition, Natalie Weaver, & Resting Waters

Terminology update: in this episode, I use the term “gender fluid,” but the term  gender-expansive is more accurate.

The “is there love available here?” question comes from Mark Silver.

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week on the show, we're talking about something that pretty much everyone can relate to: wonky interpersonal relationships. Even in the best of times, human relationships can be tricky. Honestly, it's a wonder we create the social bonds we do considering how many things get in the way of a good connection. Tune in to find out how to help nice people get better at helping you, and how to step out of endless arguments that aren’t going anywhere. Don’t miss it! 

In this episode we cover:

• why it’s so hard to describe your personal experience so other people get it
• how to overcome that “crisis of translation” (including a shout out to one of my all-time favorite movies, Powder - in which I misremember who was actually in that movie)
• the one communication tool that helps make interpersonal communication a whole lot easier (it’s a useful trick - promise!)
• how to enforce your boundaries without getting into endless arguments with people who just won’t listen 

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: in the show, I say that Cher starred in the movie, Powder. Cher is not in the 1995 movie, Powder - I had a memory glitch. Still a great movie though. 

Questions to Carry with you:

• playful, low stakes ways to practice the communication tools we talked about in this week’s show. Give it a go! 

Resources:

For ideas on how to help a grieving partner, check out this article in GQ magazine . Lots of stuff in the article applies to the ways you might support anyone you care about (not just a partner) 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Our early childhood experiences of grief - and how our family systems dealt with loss - have a huge impact on our adult behaviors and relationships. This week, author Allyson Dinneen (Notes from Your Therapist) joins me as we discuss generational grief stories. We also have the first of many conversations addressing your number one most asked question: how does a grieving therapist (or another healthcare provider) go back to work? 

About this week’s guest: 

Allyson Dinneen is a marriage and family therapist and mental health counselor is the author of Notes From Your Therapist, a book based on her Instagram account of the same name, where she shares her reflections on emotions, relationships, grief, and life. Allyson’s work has been featured in Huffington Post, Forbes, The New York Times, Cosmopolitan, and more. She lives in the Berkshires, Massachusetts and works in private practice.

Questions to Carry with you:

Exploring the risks and rewards of telling the truth.

References:

Megan and Allyson discuss a question from a previous episode that aired on January 3rd. Click HERE for that episode!

Find all this, plus instructions for how to submit YOUR questions to be answered on a future show in this episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling book- It’s Okay That You're Not Okay -at refugeingrief.com/book

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode 20! We made it to the end of season one! This week, a conversation with co-producer Tanya Juhasz on our favorite moments of season one, and why it’s so hard to get people to listen to a show about difficult things - like grief. Bonus: we discuss how grief gets passed down in family systems, and how grown ups can give their kids what they wished they’d had for themselves. 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover: 

• Megan’s dad coming in with some real-life wisdom about the grief inherent in everyday life
• Intergenerational grief (aka: how grief gets passed down)
• Why so many people self-select out when they hear the word “grief” 
• Megan’s professional crushes, and the show Tanya wants the whole world to hear
• How some of this season’s Questions to Carry With You have changed peoples lives
• What to expect while we’re on break between seasons (deep cuts and favorite shows!) 
• Where we go from here: what’s coming up in season two

Questions to Carry with you:

About that “small g” griefcase…. 

Additional resources

Be sure to listen to the whole back catalog of episodes - there are so many good episodes in season one! 

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Wait, isn't palliative care something hospice does before somebody dies? Well, yes, but that’s just part of the story: palliative care covers a whole lot of health conditions, even temporary medical health setbacks. Palliative care is like symptom relief for the emotional challenges of being alive. Doesn't that sound really interesting? Find out what it is, and why it applies to YOU in this week’s episode. 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover: 

• What is palliative care and why should *anyone* outside of hospice care?
• Getting your colleagues to care about the emotional pain of their patients
• Dr. Red’s love letter / shout-out to nurses 
• Why a skilled surgeon also needs to be a compassionate human being
• How to keep your personal losses out of your workplace (sort of)
• Why Megan hopes you’ll start seeing the whole world through a palliative care lens

Notable quotes: 

“There’s no way I could have come back to this job without being under the care of an amazing trauma informed therapist. You have to do your work or there's no way you're going to avoid bringing all of your stuff back to the job. My partner's death definitely informs who I am personally and professionally, but it cannot be all about me in the room.” - Dr. Red Hoffman on the personal/professional gray area

About our guest:

Dr. Red Hoffman is a board certified trauma surgeon trained in surgical care and hospice and palliative medicine. She's one of the leading voices advocating for palliative medicine across all departments and subspecialties in medicine. Follow her on Twitter @RedMDND

Questions to Carry with you:

Where are your palliative care people? Go on an expedition to find out more!

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If you work in an industry where loss is all around you, do you ever get used to it? Should you get used to it? Is there any way TO get used to it? With questions from a fitness instructor that lead us into discussions about emotions and boundaries and the risks of being human in the workplace - if you’ve ever wondered if you should be better at turning off the pain around you, this one’s for you. 

PS: if you’ve got friends or family working in tough professions (including the fitness industry!), be sure to tune in for an inside look at what it’s like to work in a loss-filled job. 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover: 

• Emotional numbness on the job: if you see loss all the time, shouldn’t you be used to it by now? 
• Why shaming your colleagues for NOT being numb to loss is maybe not the best way to build community
• How working in the fitness industry actually exposes you to a lot of loss
• Standard responses for emotional-relational judgment, aka: one liners to shut down the haters
• Excellent workplace boundaries: what to do when your clients lives affect you & you need to both keep it together and show your compassion

Questions to Carry with you:

A sneakily simple-seeming reflection question about emotions in the workplace

Additional resources

Does your workplace need help dealing with loss? If humans are part of the workforce, then grief is ALSO part of your workforce. Skillfully navigating workplace grief can be daunting. Megan can help! Visit megandevine.co and drop us a note. From employees returning from bereavement leave to on-the-job grief and loss, we can help you figure out how to communicate, advocate, and still get work done that needs to be done. 

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The division of labor inside a family system is never equal, is it. What happens when grief hits the main caregiver, and they just can’t keep giving? This week on the show, we discuss gender roles, invisible labor, and the redistribution of the workload inside families, with special guests Eve Rodsky and Dr. Aditi Nerurkar of the Timeout: A Fair Play podcast. 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• The long history of invisible labor, and what that means for women right now
• How systems, boundaries, and communication can help redistribute the workload inside families
• Why women’s time is spent like sand, and men’s time is valued like diamonds
• How grief intensifies the workload on the identified “I keep this family rolling” person

Guest Bios:

Eve Rodsky is a New York Times bestselling author and the creator of Fair Play: a step-by-step approach that helps partners rebalance their domestic workload. Find her at everodsky.com. Special note for therapists and other healthcare workers: Eve’s Fair Play system can be adapted to working with your clients. Follow the Fair Play link above for details. 

Dr. Aditi Nerurkar is an internal medicine physician, public health expert, and medical correspondent with an expertise in stress, resilience, and mental health. Find her at draditi.com

Together, Eve and Aditi host the new show, Timeout: A Fair Play Podcast, which maps the ways caregivers can reclaim their time inside families and other systems that often invalidate women's contribution. Find Timeout wherever you get your podcasts. 

Questions to Carry with you:

• Mapping your own workload (so you can clearly see where you need help!) 

Resources: 

Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now. 

Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops 

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

PROLONGED GRIEF DISORDER! It’s everywhere - social media, The New York Times, The Washington Post… it’s the hot new medical condition everyone’s talking about. But why is everyone so mad about it? 

This week on the show, an overview of this hotly contested “new” human disorder, and what it means for the average person, for healthcare providers, and honestly - for the whole world. This is one medical diagnosis that affects everyone. 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover: 

• Why anyone should care what the APA thinks about grief
• The actual diagnostic criteria for prolonged grief disorder (translated from psych-jargon into the way real people speak)
• Access to care + funding for research: two of the main reasons people think this diagnosis could be helpful (and why it isn’t) 
• The real world impact of the DSM: doubling down on shame and misunderstanding
• Why launching new rules about how long it’s ok to grieve is more than a bit problematic while we’re still in the middle of a mass death and mass disabling event (aka the pandemic)
• One surprise reason this diagnosis *could* be seen as a good thing

Click here for the episode webpage

Notable quotes: 

“Grief makes you less productive, and what we value above all else is productivity.” - Megan Devine

Questions to Carry with you: 

Read up on the unfolding public conversation about prolonged grief disorder - how do *you* feel about it? Let us know! Call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

Additional resources

For an interview with both Megan and the author of the NYT article, Ellen Barry, on WGBH TV Boston, click here. 

To read Megan’s more detailed response to the NYT article, including tweet-by-tweet takedowns of most of the major “pro disorder” points, check out the original Twitter thread, and the extended thread. Versions of these threads are also on the blog. 

Want to read even more about our culture’s deep avoidance of human emotion, and all the ways that messes with day to day life? Maybe more important, want to know what’s actually normal inside grief? Check out Megan’s best-selling book, It’s OK that You’re Not OK, and follow @refugeingrief on IG/FB/TW 

We recommend you check out the Perfectly Normal campaign, serving up just the validation you need when you’re feeling like the only person in the world doing that “weird” thing you do. 

Therapist, clinician, or other healthcare provider? Be sure to check out upcoming trainings that address PGD and re-humanizing grief. Follow Megan Devine on LinkedIn, too. 

Other articles on prolonged grief disorder include Medicalizing Grief May Threaten Our Ability to Mourn

Get in touch:

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What should you do if someone wants to be friends, but you’re not into it? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. 

Welcome to part two of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.

In this episode we cover:

• Starting over in a new place with new friends 
• Why we so often confuse boundaries with being mean or rude
• The power of social observation to gather data (Megan’s go-to move!) 
• Scripts for saying “no thank you” to a potential friendship when that feels both mean and necessary

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

About our guest:

Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University  and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. 

You might know her from her popular instagram channel @dr.alexandra.solomon, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at dralexandrasolomon.com 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

Additional Resources:

Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at dralexandrasolomon.com

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We know that healthcare workers are burned out and exhausted. Provider mental health is a huge issue… but are the institutions listening? This week, burnout expert Dr. Jessi Gold talks to us about (obviously) burnout, but also ways HCW* can start to change the workplace culture into one that actually values their human workforce. Sound unlikely? Listen in to find out.  

*We talk a bunch about HCW in this episode, but the topics involved are relevant to everyone who feels even a little bit exhausted by the pressures of the world! 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• Can you be emotionless and still practice good medicine?
• How medical training seeks out perfectionists, and then uses that perfectionism as a way to wring out even more work 
• Why you can’t self-care your way out of burnout, but you can support yourself inside the catastrophe
• Ways to get the administration to start valuing their workforce (spoiler: it involves speaking the language of capitalism!) 

Notable quotes: 

“The mental health system is broken. You can’t fix it by breaking yourself.” - Dr. Jessi Gold.

“Let's borrow from the c-suite, let’s borrow tactics from the upper levels of the industry - they do have a balance sheet at the end of the day. They need to know there’s economic benefit to valuing peoples’ humanity and their limits. Denying people their humanity costs us.” - Megan Devine

Guest Bio: 

Dr. Jessi Gold is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Washington University School of Medicine in St Louis. She’s a nationally recognized expert on healthcare worker mental health and burnout (particularly during the pandemic). Her work can be found in major publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and TIME. Find the “burned out burnout expert” at www.Dr.JessiGold.com and on TW @drjessigold

Questions to Carry with you:

• Tell yourself the truth about one thing. Why is that important? Listen to the episode to find out. 

Resources: 

For resources related to healthcare worker mental health, check out: 

• physician’s support line on social @shrinkrapping
• American Foundation for Suicide Prevention on social @afspnational
• provider resource hub developed by @theNAMedicine) 
• Emotional PPE

Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for consulting, resources, and upcoming trainings

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What should you do if someone wants to be friends, but you’re not into it? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. This week, part two of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.

Notable quotes: 

Boundaries are essentially “need negotiation” between humans. - Megan

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• Starting over in a new place with new friends 
• Why we so often confuse boundaries with being mean or rude
• The power of social observation to gather data (Megan’s go-to move!) 
• Scripts for saying “no thank you” to a potential friendship when that feels both mean and necessary

Guest Bio:

Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. You might know her from her popular instagram channel, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at https://dralexandrasolomon.com. 

Questions to Carry with you:

Discovering your existing boundaries in disguise! Plus communicating one new boundary. You’ve got this. 

Resources: 

Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at https://dralexandrasolomon.com

Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now. 

Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops 

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do you do when someone cuts you out of their life? How do you back away slowly from someone you really don’t want to be around? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. This week, part one of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• Why relational self-awareness is the key to all good relationships
• Can step-parents and adult step-kids get along after a loss in the family? 
• Why relationships based on conscious choice are so important
• How to negotiate the relationship you want when the other people maybe don’t want you around
• The difference between “letting go of outcome” and setting yourself up for success

Guest Bio:

Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. You might know her from her popular instagram channel, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at https://dralexandrasolomon.com. 

Questions to Carry with you:

• Check back next week for part two of this special episode on boundaries to get your Questions to Carry With You

Resources: 

Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at https://dralexandrasolomon.com

Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now. 

Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops 

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Your typical small talk is LOADED with inappropriate questions. Think about it: you ask a person you just met whether they’re married or if they have kids. If they’re new in town, you ask them why they moved here. The answers to those questions are rarely simple, and they sometimes lead to awkward, intimate conversations - right there, next to the bean dip. 

This week, we explore keeping secrets - in small talk, in the workplace, in families, and out in the wider world with listener questions about outing someone’s sexuality after their death, and whether you should tell the truth or preserve your privacy when someone asks how many kids you have. 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• The difference between “secret” and “private”
• Whether you should out someone’s gender or sexuality after their death
• Why it’s ok to only tell part of the story (or none of it) when someone asks a personal question based on your public information
• Where to go for help if you feel like you can’t tell the people around you what you’re going through
• The real problem with small talk 

Questions to Carry with you:

• Building a small talk library of questions that don’t suck: a group project

Resources: 

Free Mom Hugs is the best place I know if you’re part of the LGBTQIA+ community and feel like no one’s on your side. You might also check with the Trevor Project, GLAAD, or google LGBTQIA+ resources in your area and online. 

That scene I reference from Schitt’s Creek is in season five, episode 11 (Meet the Parents). Check it out on Netflix. 

Wish you could connect with grieving people who truly, truly get how complicated death and grief can be? The next session of the Writing Your Grief course and community is open for registration now. Your loss is unique, and you are three thousand percent definitely not alone. 

Clinician or medical provider? Be sure to visit megandevine.co to learn about trainings and resources to help your clients navigate these issues. 

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You know what makes the scary stuff easier to talk about? Making it fun. This week, my fellow “fun and scary” psychotherapist, Kat DeFatta, joins us to talk about body image, disordered eating, and how to help a friend facing a tough diagnosis. Sounds scary, but we had a lot of fun making this show. Come listen. 

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• Why brand new psychotherapist Kat DeFatta said she’d “never work with grief” (spoiler: she knows better now) 
• How to support a friend going through a health crisis when you’re concerned about potential disordered eating
• How much exercise is “too much exercise” when you’re dealing with a tough life experience
• Why grief is always in the room, no matter what your clients or patients present with

Notable quote: 

“The question here isn't, "Why the addiction?" It's, "Where is some unmet need causing you pain?" The question isn't, "Why do you have a negative body image?" The question is, "Where are you hurting?" - Kat DeFatta 

Guest Bio:

Psychotherapist Kathryn DeFatta is the host of the You Need Therapy Podcast, where she brings the kind of rare, meaningful conversations of the therapy office out into the world. Find her at www.YouNeedTherapyPodcast.com

Questions to Carry with you:

• Making conversation with your body: how exactly do we do that? 

Resources: 

Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now. 

Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops 

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

Since we’ve already got February 14th assigned as a holiday, I’d like to claim Valentine’s Day not for romance, but for all love. Let’s make it a real sacred occasion - one that helps create a world where there’s more than enough love and support to go around. This episode is basically what I’d give for my TED talk, if I had one. Don’t miss it. 

Grief is part of love, so of course we’re talking about grief today. We navigate some clinical concerns as they relate to love, and we throw in a little bit of social justice here too, because what is justice but love in action. tada! We've got an episode suitable for february 14th, and we won’t even need conversation hearts to do it. 

In this episode we cover:

• Why comparing divorce to death, or pet loss to child loss, is a Very. Bad. Idea. (usually)
• Is it ok to be sad about a musician or actor’s death, even if you never met them? 
• How to treat compassion like an abundant resource AND have good boundaries all at the same 
• Ways to navigate the shortage of compassion in your clients, patients, friends, or yourself
• The path to the love-filled, support-rich world we all want (it’s not easy, but it’s worth it) 

Notable quote: 

“It sounds pretty woo but compassion really is an expandable resource. Practicing inclusion and validation means people feel heard, and heard people hear people, which means the whole culture starts to change from one of vindictive “how dare you feel that way!” to at worst, a neutral, impartial kindness, and at best - well, being generous like this creates a world built and sustained by love. Happy Valentine’s Day.” - Megan Devine

Questions to Carry with you:

• Fun ideas to help you seed love and compassion in the world, plus the one habit to break and re-make

Resources: 

Love in action! Check out this exceptionally non-extensive list of people to learn from as we grow the love filled world we all want: Rachel Cargle, Alok Menon, Alice Wong, Free Mom Hugs, Farmer Veteran Coalition, Natalie Weaver, & Resting Waters

Terminology update: in this episode, I use the term “gender fluid,” but the term gender-expansive is more accurate.

The “is there love available here?” question comes from Mark Silver.

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

Episode Description:

A bonus episode for Valentine’s week - the love story at the core of Here After and all of Megan’s work. This episode is unlike our normal weekly show. Tune in, and let us know if you’d like more occasional bonus episodes.

Resources: 

This essay first appeared in very slightly different form on Modern Loss

Get in touch: 

Thanks for listening to this week’s bonus episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It’s no secret that healthcare professionals and caregivers of all kinds are stretched beyond their limits. We can’t look to healthcare systems themselves to give us the care and attention we need, so where CAN we go for support (and answers)? Don’t miss this week’s episode with guests Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

In this episode we cover:

• why it’s important to look beyond the identified patient to the invisible web of caregivers
• the realities of caregiver burnout and stress
• the one practice you can do even - and especially - when you have no time to care for yourself
• do you stay or do you go? Making decisions for yourself inside this healthcare system catastrophe

Guest info and resources:

Sensei Chodo Robert Campbell is co-founder of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care — a non-profit organization that focuses on the teaching of Zen and Buddhist practice with the goal to make them more accessible to people all around the world. His passion lies in bereavement counseling and advocating for change in the way our healthcare institutions work with the dying. Find Chodo and the NYZC @newyorkzencenter on IG, and online at zencare.org

Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, Jungian psychotherapist, and Certified Chaplaincy Educator. Koshin is a world-renowned thought leader in contemplative care. He is the author of Wholehearted: Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up and the co-editor of Awake at the Bedside: Contemplative Teachings on Palliative and End of Life Care. His work has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, CBS Sunday Morning, Tricycle among other publications. Find him on IG @koshinpaleyellison

If you work in healthcare, I very strongly recommend you check out New York Zen Center’s Contemplative Medicine Fellowship. Registrations for the 2022-2023 fellowship are open now.  

To hear one of my favorite passages of all time, read by Chodo Robert Campbell, check out the first video at this link. The whole video is a lovely teaching from the founders of the Zen Center for Contemplative Care. 

All of the Zen Center’s offerings, from books to support groups to ongoing educational opportunities can be found at zencare.org. 

Questions to Carry with you:

• special bonus questions and meditations from our guests! I’ll be back next week with my own QtCWY, but don’t miss this edition!

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How do you go on after your most transformational experience - motherhood - turns into your worst nightmare? Emmy nominated journalist René Marsh discusses storytelling, pediatric cancer, and becoming an advocate for the cause that broke her heart.

 “I wrote this in my journal: if I survive this, it's not because I found some great tool to survive it. It’s that I figured out how to position my stance to carry this load forever.” - René Marsh

In this episode we cover:

• how the experience of deep loss changes who you are as a storyteller - personally and professionally
• finding joy in advocacy, even though you wish you never had to be an advocate at all 
• what CNN correspondent Rene Marsh wants other journalists to know about grief - on the job and off
• and listener questions on the benefits of journaling, plus managing personal emotions as an advocate

Guest bio:

Emmy nominated CNN correspondent, René Marsh, has been writing and telling stories for nearly two decades. Her journalism covers climate change and environmental justice, along with other heavy hitting modern issues. 

Rene’s son, Blake, was diagnosed with brain cancer at only nine months old, and passed away in April of 2021 at the age of two. She’s an outspoken advocate for pediatric cancer awareness, hoping to help families just like hers get the support - and the research - they deserve. 

To watch Rene’s interviews on grief and advocacy, click here. 

To learn about Rene’s work to raise funding and awareness for pediatric cancer research, and to order her book, The Miracle Workers, visit renemarsh.com. Proceeds from the book go to fund pediatric cancer research. 

Resources

Are you a journalist? Check out this guide to reporting on death.

Looking for a welcoming, inclusive community of writers? Registration is open now for the February session of Writing Your Grief 

Learn more about Dr. Lonise Bias (mentioned in the episode) at the Bias Foundation 

Questions to Carry with you:

• Emotionally devastating stories can leave you feeling helpless. This week - one action to take that helps combat that feeling of helplessness. Don’t miss it! 

Get in touch! 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week on the show, we're talking about something that pretty much everyone can relate to: wonky interpersonal relationships. Even in the best of times, human relationships can be tricky. Honestly, it's a wonder we create the social bonds we do considering how many things get in the way of a good connection. Tune in to find out how to help nice people get better at helping you, and how to step out of endless arguments that aren’t going anywhere. Don’t miss it! 

In this episode we cover:

• why it’s so hard to describe your personal experience so other people get it
• how to overcome that “crisis of translation” (including a shout out to one of my all-time favorite movies, Powder - in which I misremember who was actually in that movie)
• the one communication tool that helps make interpersonal communication a whole lot easier (it’s a useful trick - promise!)
• how to enforce your boundaries without getting into endless arguments with people who just won’t listen 

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: in the show, I say that Cher starred in the movie, Powder. Cher is not in the 1995 movie, Powder - I had a memory glitch. Still a great movie though. 

Questions to Carry with you:

• playful, low stakes ways to practice the communication tools we talked about in this week’s show. Give it a go! 

Resources:

For ideas on how to help a grieving partner, check out this article in GQ magazine . Lots of stuff in the article applies to the ways you might support anyone you care about (not just a partner) 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do you do when someone cuts you out of their life? How do you back away slowly from someone you really don’t want to be around? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. 

This week on It’s OK, part one of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.

In this episode we cover:

• Why relational self-awareness is the key to all good relationships
• Can step-parents and adult step-kids get along after a loss in the family? 
• How to negotiate the relationship you want when the other people maybe don’t want you around
• The difference between “letting go of outcome” and setting yourself up for success

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

About our guest:

Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University  and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. 

You might know her from her popular instagram channel @dr.alexandra.solomon, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at dralexandrasolomon.com

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

Additional Resources:

Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at dralexandrasolomon.com

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Everybody knows the stages of grief. Even if you didn’t go to grad school, I bet you can rattle them off. Thing is - those stages don’t help anyone: not the pros trying to support patients or clients, not the person trying to survive an impossible situation. Tune in for the inside scoop on the stages of grief and what we should be doing instead, with a special shout-out to the tv shows getting grief right.  

In this episode we cover:

• where the stages of grief came from, and why their creator was Less Than Pleased with what happened next
• whether an “innocent” mention of the stages of grief really matters in a movie or tv show (shout out to netflix: HMU!) 
• what to do if your boss asks you to support your co-workers through a death in the company
• and much more, because I have a lot to say on these stages, apparently. 

Questions to Carry with you:

• rooting out the ways the stages of grief live in your head (it’s not as uncomfortable as it sounds!) 

Extra resources: I’ve written a lot about the stages of grief. Check out this article, this instagram post, and for more of my feelings about the Starling, click here. Be sure to pick up It’s OK that You’re Not OK wherever you get your books, too - there’s a lot about the stages in there (including the reasons why graduate programs still teach this outdated model). 

For more help navigating grief in the workplace, check out Alica Forneret, Lantern, and Grief Coach. I provide corporate consulting on grief related comms, too. Get in touch via megandevine.co  Disclosure: these aren’t paid placements - I’ve worked with all these folks and I super dig them. Go check them (and me!) out. 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Our early childhood experiences of grief - and how our family systems dealt with loss - have a huge impact on our adult behaviors and relationships. This week, author Allyson Dinneen (Notes from Your Therapist) joins me as we discuss generational grief stories. We also have the first of many conversations addressing your number one most asked question: how does a grieving therapist (or another healthcare provider) go back to work? 

About this week’s guest: 

Allyson Dinneen is a marriage and family therapist and mental health counselor is the author of Notes From Your Therapist, a book based on her Instagram account of the same name, where she shares her reflections on emotions, relationships, grief, and life. Allyson’s work has been featured in Huffington Post, Forbes, The New York Times, Cosmopolitan, and more. She lives in the Berkshires, Massachusetts and works in private practice.

Questions to Carry with you:

Exploring the risks and rewards of telling the truth

References:

Megan and Allyson discuss a question from a previous episode that aired on January 3rd. Click HERE for that episode!

Find all this, plus instructions for how to submit YOUR questions to be answered on a future show in this episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling book- It’s Okay That You're Not Okay -at refugeingrief.com/book

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The holidays are over - you made it. By the looks of our inbox, the season wasn’t easy. This week, a holiday debrief, including bad behavior from therapists, why religion is not the answer to grief, and some true facts about dating after loss. 

In this episode we cover:

• how to say “I can’t work with you” without accidentally shaming your patients or clients
• why “but your (dead relative) is all around you, just in a new form!” maybe isn’t the most supportive thing to say
• questions to ask yourself when faced with a surprise romantic breakup (and what that has to do with grief) 
• and as always - fun talk about boundaries. 

Questions to Carry with you:

• Boundary practice! 
• Still working on those resolutions? Be sure to listen to the two-part episode New Year, Same Grief (and the Math of Suffering) for help creating resolutions that feel a little more achievable than “overhaul my entire life”  

Find all this, plus instructions for how to submit YOUR questions to be answered on a future show in this episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co

For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW

Check out Megan’s best-selling book- It’s Okay That You're Not Okay -at refugeingrief.com/book

To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.